idea to breath new life into old magics

[Michae]

I would like to see us get new spell combo abilities that are made for high lvls. Frankly alot of the spells we get we never set or use so it would give these spells a purpose, I mean what blu sets Final Sting or Leafstorm? None I have ever seen or known. To compensate for these new trait/ability sets I think a seperate spell list would be fantastic. The second would render the spell unusable (as if it were not set at all) yet give us the benifit or say att+ or mp+ without taking up valuable points for needed spells. It doesnt have to be much, say 10 spells can be set for abil/traits and it take 5 to give u mp+ and 5 to give u acc+ or something of that sort. This way you cannot make blu too powerful but give it a lil boost (esp since our af3 is so horrible in comparison to others). This would also make us choose, do we set Goblin Rush for use or for say eva+. Just a thought :o

[Koren]

As that Goblin Rush doesn't even have +AGI and isn't part of getting Evasion Bonus, I would say we would set it for use.

Also I'm not sure what you are asking for. Are you asking for more tiers of existing Job traits like Dual Wield II or III when you say "new spell combo abilities that are made for high levels"? Or uses for spells we don't set due not being cost/point/cast time efficient? Or are you asking for new combinations of spells to get existing Job Traits? Or are you just asking to get Job Traits without using up spell points?

10 spells is about 5 additional traits. Giving us those 10 spells wouldn't make players choose between setting Animating Wail for use for haste or a set for Dual Wield and +10 HP. We'd set it anyway and get both, but mostly for the haste. Outside of getting Counter, Conserve MP, and Fast Cast Which are our more useful traits with less useful spells, most of our other traits like Dual Wield, Auto-Refresh and Double Attack have at least one useful spell in its combination and your suggestion gives me a feeling that unless all the spells are in list#2 we wouldn't be getting the trait. If that's the case I'd forgo the trait and just use the spells and take traits like Beast Killer or Store TP which have no spells I would be actively using.

Now if you're going the route of having say Blood Drain and Ram Charge create Dual Wield III, well, I don't know anyone who would call that a choice except when /NIN and taking another trait.

[Michae]

Well the Goblin Rush thing was just an example, I just wanted to use a popularly used spell ^^

I was saying higher tiers of sorts for job traits. I never really set traits after 70 except for auto refresh and regen, but now we have them in spell form so we dont need to do that either. What I was thinking is using these never used spells for a purpose. Give us 2 spell menus. 1 has about 10 slots and can be used to set job traits/abilities but renders the spells unusable, the second is just for the spells we want to use. idk any examples of spell combos for this trait or that, Im just throwing out a suggestion since most blu set the same 10ish spells since they are the only ones of real use outside of proc spells (goblin rush, animating wail, diamondhide, battery charge, etc).

[Kwate]

I have a thought, a fresh approach to our BLU point problem.

A dedicated trait set. This can be limited to half of the main set, example 60 BLU points would mean you have 30 points allotted for trait set or if they want to simplify it just maybe 3-5 traits of your choice. The catch is you can't use the spells in your trait set, good examples are:

-Double Attack (Acrid Stream & Empty Thrash)
-Fast Cast (Auroral Drape & Sub-zero Smash)
-Counter (Enervation & Asuran Claws)

Traits like Auto-Refresh have usable spells, so I would keep that in my main set.

Thoughts?

I started a thread about this very thing on this forum.

[Michae]

O I completely missed that somehow ^^

[Kwate]

All good, but the fact you mentioned it as well shows SE should put some consideration into this. I can live with the tier 1 traits and the proc's BS, but give us a trait set, that would so rock.

[Mightyg]

That and I'd like to see the older spells adjusted to be effective at any level. All the breath spells should be at least 1/2 damage to hp ratio like heat breath. Physical damage spells should be adjusted so their damage is roughly proportional to their mp cost, and they should give us more physical blue magic attack per stat mod.

[Zagen]

So if I'm understanding this correctly you basically want to remove the need for sub jobs for their traits? I like that if I want the best Fast Cast I go with /RDM, I want the best Dual Wield I go with /NIN, I want the best Acc Bonus I go with /RNG (dunno why I would but thought of this), I want the best MAB I go with /RDM or /BLM, and I save myself points in the process. Obviously there are a few exceptions but generally it works out using a sub gives you the strongest traits.

IMO the fact we have to choose which spells are set for traits, damage, support, stats, etc. is what keeps BLU from becoming a broken job.


That and I'd like to see the older spells adjusted to be effective at any level. All the breath spells should be at least 1/2 damage to hp ratio like heat breath. Physical damage spells should be adjusted so their damage is roughly proportional to their mp cost, and they should give us more physical blue magic attack per stat mod.

So you want Poison Breath a spell that costs 22MP and casts in 3 seconds to cast and 22 second recast to be able to do 500+ outside of Abyssea and 1.5k to 2k inside abyssea? Keep in mind Heat Breath costs 169mp 7.5 sec casting time and 49 sec recast. In roughly the same time you'd do double the damage and at a 4th~ of the mp cost. Sounds kinda broken to me comparatively.

How many BLMs do you know who regularly use the Tier 1-4 spells after getting Tier 5, or a WHM spamming Cure 1-4 to keep a tank alive over Cure 5/6? Outside of yellow !! of course for tier 3/4 nukes. It is level progression as you get further a long the first spells you get become less useful, helps make the new spell more worth getting.

[Kwate]

So if I'm understanding this correctly you basically want to remove the need for sub jobs for their traits? I like that if I want the best Fast Cast I go with /RDM, I want the best Dual Wield I go with /NIN, I want the best Acc Bonus I go with /RNG (dunno why I would but thought of this), I want the best MAB I go with /RDM or /BLM, and I save myself points in the process. Obviously there are a few exceptions but generally it works out using a sub gives you the strongest traits.

IMO the fact we have to choose which spells are set for traits, damage, support, stats, etc. is what keeps BLU from becoming a broken job.



So you want Poison Breath a spell that costs 22MP and casts in 3 seconds to cast and 22 second recast to be able to do 500+ outside of Abyssea and 1.5k to 2k inside abyssea? Keep in mind Heat Breath costs 169mp 7.5 sec casting time and 49 sec recast. In roughly the same time you'd do double the damage and at a 4th~ of the mp cost. Sounds kinda broken to me comparatively.

How many BLMs do you know who regularly use the Tier 1-4 spells after getting Tier 5, or a WHM spamming Cure 1-4 to keep a tank alive over Cure 5/6? Outside of yellow !! of course for tier 3/4 nukes. It is level progression as you get further a long the first spells you get become less useful, helps make the new spell more worth getting.

Don't think so, a bunch of tier 1 traits isn't breaking anything when blue points are at such a premium. Nice to have, but not going to bitch about it. BLU is a stout job, i admit, but far from broken. We evade like a brick, outside of CDC our weaponskills are mediocre at best (still don't get how a dagger WS can outperform a sword weaponskill). So it puts a lot more in what spells you equip, with the points being as crowded as they are traits take up a lot a space. Almace solves most of my point issues, but for the average BLU it can be rough.

[Zagen]

Don't think so, a bunch of tier 1 traits isn't breaking anything when blue points are at such a premium. Nice to have, but not going to bitch about it. BLU is a stout job, i admit, but far from broken. We evade like a brick, outside of CDC our weaponskills are mediocre at best (still don't get how a dagger WS can outperform a sword weaponskill). So it puts a lot more in what spells you equip, with the points being as crowded as they are traits take up a lot a space. Almace solves most of my point issues, but for the average BLU it can be rough.

I'm kind of confused by this, what traits are you setting that you think are needed to justify going out of your way (or any other BLU's way) setting the points on them?

Vorpal Blades average 1.4k for me.
Sanguine Blade runs just over 1k unresisted.
Swift Blade runs 800-900 average (I don't gear for it tbh) with spikes of up to 1.8k(amazed myself the other day tbh)

Now I'll agree those don't compete with my friend's Eviscerations on his THF but then again he isn't able to pop off a spell for 1-3k damage(up to 5ks with CA) a second later.

You mentioned Almace solves most of your issues but what are they? I mean Almace changes the way a BLU does its damage from a 80/20 maybe 70/30 Magic/Melee ratio to usually a 50/50 or 60/40 depending on play style. Are you trying to win out with melee damage instead of spell damage without Almace?

I sit on exactly 4 points I don't "need" for BLU in my Physical setup (not accounting for support jobs in the group), so I'm not sure how things are "rough" for the average BLU.

[Kwate]

I'm kind of confused by this, what traits are you setting that you think are needed to justify going out of your way (or any other BLU's way) setting the points on them?

Vorpal Blades average 1.4k for me.
Sanguine Blade runs just over 1k unresisted.
Swift Blade runs 800-900 average (I don't gear for it tbh) with spikes of up to 1.8k(amazed myself the other day tbh)

Now I'll agree those don't compete with my friend's Eviscerations on his THF but then again he isn't able to pop off a spell for 1-3k damage(up to 5ks with CA) a second later.

You mentioned Almace solves most of your issues but what are they? I mean Almace changes the way a BLU does its damage from a 80/20 maybe 70/30 Magic/Melee ratio to usually a 50/50 or 60/40 depending on play style. Are you trying to win out with melee damage instead of spell damage without Almace?

I sit on exactly 4 points I don't "need" for BLU in my Physical setup (not accounting for support jobs in the group), so I'm not sure how things are "rough" for the average BLU.

As far is WS numbers you are referring to in or out of abyss?

Keep in mind not everyone equip BLU the way "you" do, and people play BLU differently.

A 1.4k vorp on a good day, doesn't compete with a 2.5k-3k blade: jin or a Evisceration, Almace solves our crappy weapon skill option.

Without Almace your spells are going to win out in overall damage by a good margin, otherwise you're playing the wrong job.

Again, I take the good with the bad with BLU, but for anyone to say we're a god it's farthest thing from the truth.

[Zagen]

As far is WS numbers you are referring to in or out of abyss?

Keep in mind not everyone equip BLU the way "you" do, and people play BLU differently.

A 1.4k vorp on a good day, doesn't compete with a 2.5k-3k blade: jin or a Evisceration, Almace solves our crappy weapon skill option.
Inside, I use numbers observed in what the majority of the player base is doing which is still Abyssea.

I find it funny you make BLU sound like current SAM as a DD when it is not.

I understand people play BLU differently, I would hope that when wanting to beef up the job they would look at it in the most efficient way the job is played and not their "personal" play style.



Without Almace your spells are going to win out in overall damage by a good margin, otherwise you're playing the wrong job.

Again, I take the good with the bad with BLU, but for anyone to say we're a god it's farthest thing from the truth.

You do realize Almace shifts how your damage is done and not greatly increases your total damage right? It does increase overall damage but not to any major degree after all if it actually did PLD and RDM DD wouldn't be so lols.

[Kwate]

Inside, I use numbers observed in what the majority of the player base is doing which is still Abyssea.

I find it funny you make BLU sound like current SAM as a DD when it is not.

I understand people play BLU differently, I would hope that when wanting to beef up the job they would look at it in the most efficient way the job is played and not their "personal" play style.

No not comparing to a SAM, simply stated a dagger outperforming a sword in WS is nonsense. SE designed BLU to be played differently when it put a point count on its spells. SE made a list of BLU spells you pick your spells which suits "your" play style and have at it.





You do realize Almace shifts how your damage is done and not greatly increases your total damage right? It does increase overall damage but not to any major degree after all if it actually did PLD and RDM DD wouldn't be so lols.

I understand what Almace does, find a point then bring it to me instead of preaching the obvious since I wield one.

My point earlier was someone called BLU a god, which I disagreed with.

[Zagen]

No not comparing to a SAM, simply stated a dagger outperforming a sword in WS is nonsense. SE designed BLU to be played differently when it put a point count on its spells. SE made a list of BLU spells you pick your spells which suits "your" play style and have at it.

Ok so my Eviscerations fly off to 2k+ on THF and my Vorpals go off for 1.4k~ so what though? My Quadratic Continuum goes off for 1-3k(2-5k with CA), my Delta Thrust goes off for 800-1.8k (don't use CA on it often enough for an average imo), my Disseverments run 1-1.8k (1.6-2kish with CA)... The list goes on for BLU on how they can do lots of damage and do it all within a short amount of time. My THF does good DoT but it can't pop off another bit of spike damage right after doing an Evisceration unless I didn't combo SA with it and then that's only an extra 600-1k every minute assuming I'm not tanking.


I understand what Almace does, find a point then bring it to me instead of preaching the obvious since I wield one.

My point earlier was someone called BLU a god, which I disagreed with.
You're the only one using the word "god" in this topic, I mentioned the requirement of having to choose between traits, spells, and stats when setting spells is what kept BLU from becoming broken. Maybe broken = god to you I'm not sure but it doesn't to me.

Say they removed the requirement for points to be spent on trait spells. I'm now free to pump more stat based spells into my set for my damaging spells I have set already. Oh and I could have Auto-Refresh, Auto-Regen, MAB, Fast Cast, Double Attack, Attack Bonus, and/or Accuracy Bonus on top of those stats... how does that concept not sound broken? Even if you just limit to 1 "free" trait it is still more than any other job can freely choose to have. RDM can't choose to have Double Attack instead of Fast Cast or on top of it without /WAR, why shouldn't BLU have to pay a price for this premium?

As to my point about Almace it is simple, it changes how you play, you give up spell damage for increased WS/Melee damage giving you a slight increase in total damage.
You make it sound like BLU needs Almace to be a competitive DD which isn't true.

[Kwate]

Ok so my Eviscerations fly off to 2k+ on THF and my Vorpals go off for 1.4k~ so what though? My Quadratic Continuum goes off for 1-3k(2-5k with CA), my Delta Thrust goes off for 800-1.8k (don't use CA on it often enough for an average imo), my Disseverments run 1-1.8k (1.6-2kish with CA)... The list goes on for BLU on how they can do lots of damage and do it all within a short amount of time. My THF does good DoT but it can't pop off another bit of spike damage right after doing an Evisceration unless I didn't combo SA with it and then that's only an extra 600-1k every minute assuming I'm not tanking.


You're the only one using the word "god" in this topic, I mentioned the requirement of having to choose between traits, spells, and stats when setting spells is what kept BLU from becoming broken. Maybe broken = god to you I'm not sure but it doesn't to me.

Say they removed the requirement for points to be spent on trait spells. I'm now free to pump more stat based spells into my set for my damaging spells I have set already. Oh and I could have Auto-Refresh, Auto-Regen, MAB, Fast Cast, Double Attack, Attack Bonus, and/or Accuracy Bonus on top of those stats... how does that concept not sound broken? Even if you just limit to 1 "free" trait it is still more than any other job can freely choose to have. RDM can't choose to have Double Attack instead of Fast Cast or on top of it without /WAR, why shouldn't BLU have to pay a price for this premium?

As to my point about Almace it is simple, it changes how you play, you give up spell damage for increased WS/Melee damage giving you a slight increase in total damage.
You make it sound like BLU needs Almace to be a competitive DD which isn't true.

Read the other threads, it was mentioned. For some reason you're bent on trying to prove someone wrong. Your opinion is your opinion, noted. I have mine deal with it, and move on. I'm not telling you anything you don't know and vice versa.

[Zagen]

Read the other threads, it was mentioned. For some reason you're bent on trying to prove someone wrong. Your opinion is your opinion, noted. I have mine deal with it, and move on. I'm not telling you anything you don't know and vice versa.
So you picked a random BLU topic to claim people are calling it a god in other topics?

In a way it is about proving you wrong because you believe Sword Damage losing to a dagger is of importance to BLU if you argued that on PLD forums I'd agree since that's the only damage a PLD can reliably use.

Maybe I'm just reading what you're writing in a way you didn't intend but you come off as BLU's Melee Damage should be able to keep up with a THF or even a DNC because a Sword is bigger/has higher DMG/whatever reason than a Dagger. I've pointed out a BLU is much more than just "Melee DD" even after Almace. Which would mean your argument is pointless when talking about a BLU since sword damage isn't all they have to deal damage.

----------------------------------

I came into this topic with a few questions as to why trait spells should be excluded from costing points, commenting how I felt the requirement of choosing between traits, spells, and stats is what kept a BLU from becoming a broken job.

Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that being able to have say MAB and Fast Cast while /NIN without "wasting" about 13 points to get it seems overpowered.

[Kwate]

So you picked a random BLU topic to claim people are calling it a god in other topics?

In a way it is about proving you wrong because you believe Sword Damage losing to a dagger is of importance to BLU if you argued that on PLD forums I'd agree since that's the only damage a PLD can reliably use.

Maybe I'm just reading what you're writing in a way you didn't intend but you come off as BLU's Melee Damage should be able to keep up with a THF or even a DNC because a Sword is bigger/has higher DMG/whatever reason than a Dagger. I've pointed out a BLU is much more than just "Melee DD" even after Almace. Which would mean your argument is pointless when talking about a BLU since sword damage isn't all they have to deal damage.

----------------------------------

I came into this topic with a few questions as to why trait spells should be excluded from costing points, commenting how I felt the requirement of choosing between traits, spells, and stats is what kept a BLU from becoming a broken job.

Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that being able to have say MAB and Fast Cast while /NIN without "wasting" about 13 points to get it seems overpowered.

I did mention it seemed a little ridiculous a dagger could out damage a sword, imo it makes no sense to me. However the argument of most dagger jobs WS are their main source of damage, so your point is well taken. However my point with sword damage is the weapon itself, which extends beyond BLU, but so happens to includes BLU.

The trait set would be nice to have as the points imo are a little crowded for the amount of good spells we're getting hit with post 75, suggestion, but wouldn't say it's a weakness of ours. Our 2hr is a joke but nice to see that is going to change with this next update in coming days. That itself will be a nice toy to play with to see how many Skillchains we can stack up.