Your actions are making the entire FFXI community suffer

[Daemon]

No devs and community representatives this is not about you ^^. You can sit this one out and enjoy your coffee.

Hey Guys this is a repost of a reply i put on another thread that I believe is important to be made a main post. You are more than welcome to criticize me on my point of view as I know there will be a huge debate regardless. But my points need to be noticed not for me, but for you and everyone else who are suffering right now in game because of this ripple effect of negativity going on.




Daemons guide is cool, but everyone can't play WHM and most would rather not.

Before I begin Frankie Im only using your comments to write mine out and in no way attacking you. This post is written out for everyone to read.

I just want to point out something. I never suggested anyone play WHM. Rather than list every single gear set, I only listed Orvail as an example of how Adoulin gear is powerful and relevant to Adoulin content rather than players skipping it trying to show up in delve gimped with Af3.

My guide is not complete and Ive been adding stuff on a daily basis, however I will go back and add more to the first post later when i have time.

Seekers of Adoulin is high level no? Then wouldn't common sense tell you that gear you obtain from Adoulin be made relevant for the zones that were implemented so you can explore the new areas easier? If it wasn't made for that purpose then it wouldn't be there in the first place. It would be under Auction House.

Whether you are playing DD or any job, I stated in my guide that Adoulin gear corrects the issue on Accuracy etc.

Ive noticed people try to make arguments with me when ive already included detailed answers and reasons for the tips i posted. You are clearly not reading over them carefully and It shows when you state things that contradicts the purpose of my advice written when i know i put the answer there for you.

My guide is not wiki, it's not meant for anyone to skip details or quickly glance at it and if its info you already know then this guide obviously wasn't made for you. Read over it carefully.



I agree Delve is easy to do, at least the Plasm farming part. Only the 3 Fracture Boss fights favor large LS, because SE wanted to give something for that contingent. Everything else has begun being adopted by the player community. More and more people are getting their Delve KIs every day. Daemon has made exhaustive threads detailing how this can be accomplished, and there is a lot of good stuff in them.

Thank you for seeing the true side of my guide and thanks for being supportive. Do know that i am reading over posts and seeing so many complaints that I know as fact are irrelevant because you are dealing with a person who has many years of experience in FFXI, have trained and learned many things that people dont know the answer to. Some of you may not like the answers i give you, but that doesnt change the fact that ive given you a solution to the problem. And im not the only person in game to have all this knowledge, Several Veteran players on my server even spoke with me about how nice i am for taking the time to do this for those who are still learning. And they too agree with all of my points and find that my guide can help.

Many of you complain that us high level players dont help anyone anymore. Some have even insisted and insulted me by slapping me with the title "Elitist" without even knowing me. Im giving you the most powerful tool beyond just 1 person helping you for 1 thing in game. Sacrificing almost all of my game time to help the entire community here on the forums. Im covering all the things that you need to know and have done by the time you reach to us who are out there playing end game content.

The difference compared to other sites and wiki, You dont need to find out at the moment and be lost not knowing what to do and waste time. Im showing you all of the things that matter and gathering them in 1 post rather than you be lost. Im also giving you clear walkthroughs on certain details to help you accomplish your goal the fastest way possible. And im being more than modest by responding to your questions to help you giving you way more attention than any dev or community rep has given all of you.

As for the Higher Tier Notorious Monsters, Several People are not listening. All other content is still relevant and needed in order to accomplish wins for these bosses.

Take for example Kurma, even with 500+ Enfeebling magic, +25 INT from INT Gain spell for having 500+ Enhancing, Delve weapon or gear with high Magic Accuracy, Spells still get resisted at about 99%(Note this is not 100% fact to everyone as your build, race or stats maybe different however the resist rate is extremely high). Therefore other jobs with Max Skills and certain abilities are combined to achieve the obstacle of getting resisted. But they too need to have those gear sets, and Maxed skills which Ive stressed so much in my guide already. I gave you the way. Its up to all of you to take the time and analyze my advice, use it, then once you have done everything ive written and if it doesnt work, then make arguements with me that it didnt. Not because its not fun.

If i put up an article in my guide, it has a valuable purpose. Im not here to waste my time or anyone elses. Im just trying to help you learn the game beyond what some of you only want to see and its very narrowminded so far from the many comments ive read.

And devs most likely know this too and thats why you may feel you are being ignored by them because you cant argue with people who create a game and implement things knowing they have to test it out and make sure that there are no errors, and that there are ways to accomplish defeating the challenge they created before implementing it.

The devs can keep adding in content, make adjustments based on player reactions, but they cannot play the game for you and teach you how to win the challenge they set for you. Otherwise whats the point? The content is there, The items are there, its up to you people to decide if you want to team up and work together in obtaining whats needed. This is why I wrote out a detailed article on Networking. Seriously read it, the way you play the game will totally change if you follow it.

Its not that the content is irrelevant, Its that you people are making it irrelevant by giving up and spreading false information to others motivating and giving others reasons to believe you that it is all because you can't do it.

Again, my post is not directly attacking you or anyone on a personal level, but to those who dont want to see the brightside of things and listen to someone who is trying to help you overcome your problems, why are you still here then? RPG games are not meant to be easy. They are meant for you to study and learn new things, take time in achieving certain power. And yes you need to educate yourself on several topics that are the same things you learn in the real world and even in college.

I cant make the game fun for you, I can only show you how you can accomplish what you wanted to do faster, more effectively and save time however, there should not be any reason to ignore valuable information that can help you achieve power.

Several of you who refuse to listen or take the time to read my guide, follow it and to those who decide they want to come to my post and give me negative snap judgment remarks and poor excuses, you are only showing me that im doing way more things for you than you are doing for yourself, and i dont even know you.

Here is one example of why im pouring out my sweat and blood into this guide for you. I can deal up to 13k damage DDing with scholar doing selfskillchain darkness on Megamaw Mikey and everytime i have a good swarm of players spam checking to see my equipment yet they are not understanding why i can do it with the gear i have on. Im trying to show you how several small details that can add up to greater outcomes makes a difference so you can improve your WS and your character and start learning the true power of your jobs to the fulliest. If i had a magic wand that could give you all the power in a single wave I would but certain power requires alot of work. From gear thats implemented to knowledge of knowing what items, buffs, jobs to help you, and the way you build on top of that is how you reach these accomplishments.

For the time being yes Im only covering basics, but the "hidden" purpose you are not seeing throughout the entire guide is that im trying to teach you, advise you correctly, and help you on how to pay attention to small details because at the end when you follow these tips, the overall outcome of your power will be different than a person who only looked at a gear set posted on FFXIAH and think that just having that matters.

And if you do not take the time to even learn the basics down to every possible detail first, then you will never get it.

This is why when I saw the Dev say that these bosses can be defeated in 15 minutes with the proper gear, strategy, party setup and jobs that if you cant do it, you may need to go back and work on these things, I know exactly what they are talking about. Rather seeing defeat and learning from it and just ending it because you "Think" you can't, try looking at other peoples comments, read and learn from others who are trying to tell you its possible. We are not making these things up to give you some kind of false hope.

Friends? You cannot expect to join any party assuming that everyone in that party is your best friend. Its your job to make friends and get to know people on a personal level so you can do stuff together more frequently. Most of the parties you see are based on a circle of friends who already know each other in game or beyond the game. And this is one of the reasons why you are not getting invited. Again stressing it more than i should have to: READ MY NETWORKING GUIDE.

As for REM, they are still good and can serve different purposes allowing you to do different things that Delve weapons cannot. Whats blinding all of you is that you are so narrow minded on only seeing the damage and stats. And only caring how much damage you can do with a "Merit weaponskill."

Here is the perfect example of your narrowminded judgment.

Yagrush
(Club) All Races
DMG: 74 Delay: 267 Magic Accuracy +25
Enhances "Divine Veil" effect
Enhances "Divine Benison" effect III
"Mystic Boon"
Aftermath: Increases Acc./Magic Acc.
Occasionally attacks twice or thrice
Lv. 99 WHM


Damage Per Second: 16.63
TP Per Hit: 7%
Enhances "Divine Veil" effect
Spells have the Divine Veil effect without Divine Seal being active.
Works on alliance members outside party.
Enhances "Divine Benison" effect III

Hidden Effect
Increases Mystic Boon damage by 30%.

Noticed the bold letters? Spells have the Divine Veil effect without Divine Seal Active?

What about the description under that? "Works on Alliance members outside party"

Just these 2 points alone makes this Mythic weapon worth getting.

Even mystic boon alone is powerful, yet you are given an increase of 30% more damage so you can gain more mp back. Do you really want to waste all that time making an accuracy path delve weapon when you can have this with +25 Magic Accuracy and other beneficial stats that offers more?Yeah sure Delve weapon can be earned faster, but then once you get this, you most likely wont even bother making the effort to quest anything else.

And when ever do you see a WHM get hired to DD?

Need i say more??


So for those of you saying REM is worthless, I just proved that your statement is irrelevant and misleading. And this is why earlier i said that your actions effect the entire community and once a negative idea floats in the air, people feed on to it like fire and then everyone starts assuming that these statements are fact, and now motivation of other players are ruined and thats why everyone is sitting in town bored all day fretting, complaining and harassing the devs over negative information that is not true only to serve yourself and others around you a purpose to not get anything done at all. While at the same time encouraging others to believe your false statements through /yell in town rather than be responsible and have respect to those who do not see your points as valid.


Now that ive shown you the importance of paying attention to small details, lets see you go back and re-observe the other items from different content and then come back and complain.

[Daemon]

To better support my 1st post with more examples of why i said your actions are effecting everyone else on the server.

"All other content is now irrelevant because of delve...."

Kirin's Pole from Sky
(Staff) All Races
DMG: 60 Delay: 402 HP +20 MP +20 INT +10
MND +10 +15 +15 +15 +15
+15 +15 +15 +15
Lv. 75 MNK / WHM / BLM / PLD / DRG / SMN / SCH / GEO

Enhancing +12 Augment?


Spurrina coif from Legion
[Head] All Races
DEF: 35 MP +60 INT +8 MND +10
"Magic Accuracy" +10
Lv. 99 BLM / RDM / SMN / BLU / SCH

+2 Refesh Augment on a hat for BLM?


Hyaline Hat from Voidwatch

[Head] All Races
DEF:37 INT+15 MND+15 CHR+15
Magic Accuracy+10
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Enmity-6
Lv. 99 WHM / BLM / RDM / BRD / SMN / SCH
Enhances Fast Cast Effect
Spellcasting time -10%
Spell recast time -5%

-10 Spellcasting?

Need I add more? Because i'm sure people will agree that Skadi boots from Salvage for BST is nice...



"You cannot do delve without a delve weapon"

Really now? So how did everyone do delve when it first came out? So REM made no difference? What about Merit Weapon skills? VW gear? Auction house HQ weapons? So you are saying absolutely no one with a delve weapon is willing to team up with you and help you do some bosses? Because ive been hired by a few people to play RDM for enfeebling magic. And its nice to be noticed that if you are well geared and can accomplish a goal people need help with, you have the ability to meet other people and have fun make use of your hardworking efforts of the job you put massive amounts of time gearing up. And im sure there are many DDs with a huge power Ego wanting to show off thier new massive amounts of damage they can deal.


No one does Reives anymore therefore we cannot earn our Adoulin gear....

So you dont know how to shout for people? Or ask people in LS? No friends on your list? Are you that new because if you are doing Adoulin content id imagine you would be 99 by now with atleast some friends and should have some people you know by then unless you FC to 99 in half a day on a new account which i highly doubt because you'd still have to do limit breaks...


Its this type of false information and negativity that is spreading across the FFXI community servers that is encouraging players to stop doing all other content.

[Zagen]

Sorry to knock your soap boxing a little but some of these points are just weak at best.

Kirin's Pole from Sky
(Staff) All Races
DMG: 60 Delay: 402 HP +20 MP +20 INT +10
MND +10 +15 +15 +15 +15
+15 +15 +15 +15
Lv. 75 MNK / WHM / BLM / PLD / DRG / SMN / SCH / GEO

Enhancing +12 Augment?

Great if you're maximizing your SCH Embrava set. Also Summoning Skill path for SMN maximizing their skill builds. If neither of those apply this isn't needed.


Spurrina coif from Legion
[Head] All Races
DEF: 35 MP +60 INT +8 MND +10
"Magic Accuracy" +10
Lv. 99 BLM / RDM / SMN / BLU / SCH

+2 Refesh Augment on a hat for BLM?

Assuming there is even a BLM at X event then you're also looking at Refresh/2, Evoker's Roll, and Ballads just for refresh type effects. I'm not even talking gear yet, oh and did you know even without all this refresh gear a BLM will still hit the enmity cap before they blow their MP if they were to try and blow through their MP.

Outside of a nice idle piece it's far from must have.


Hyaline Hat from Voidwatch

[Head] All Races
DEF:37 INT+15 MND+15 CHR+15
Magic Accuracy+10
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Enmity-6
Lv. 99 WHM / BLM / RDM / BRD / SMN / SCH
Enhances Fast Cast Effect
Spellcasting time -10%
Spell recast time -5%

-10 Spellcasting?

That's amazing if you never got Nares Cap or have no means of getting Nahtirah Hat.

I get the point you're trying to make but it's falling on deaf ears because the only people who care about that are the ones who'd rather sit and cry than get off their butt and create groups that will be sub optimal for a while until getting said better gear though a lot of trial and error if they refuse to go through the poorly designed linear progression SE has made.



"You cannot do delve without a delve weapon"

Really now? So how did everyone do delve when it first came out? So REM made no difference? What about Merit Weapon skills? VW gear? Auction house HQ weapons?

Never seen this being stated. I have however seen many times where people state that using Delve Weapons allows for better runs and creates a larger margin for error. Both of which are true.


No one does Reives anymore therefore we cannot earn our Adoulin gear....

So you dont know how to shout for people? Or ask people in LS? No friends on your list? Are you that new because if you are doing Adoulin content id imagine you would be 99 by now with atleast some friends and should have some people you know by then unless you FC to 99 in half a day on a new account which i highly doubt because you'd still have to do limit breaks...

Again falling on deaf ears because the people who cry about this aren't going to lead groups.


Its this type of false information and negativity that is spreading across the FFXI community servers that is encouraging players to stop doing all other content.

Maybe there's so much false information because people choose to interpret instead of read what others say. Maybe it's there because people just don't want to accept their own short comings, take responsibility for them, and then do something about it.

I have yet to see where people discourage players from doing content they are ready to take on. I mean are there players who're sitting there in Teal/Perle/Aurore honestly expecting to take on say Delve content and not be told no?

[Karah]

Someone come in here and TL : DR sum this up.

My eyes bleed when I read that much wrong/butthurt/whining.

I'm sure more than half is filler.

[Alpheus]

I dont think it's misinformation but rather just people leveling with themselves (not in a RPG way) that they have to look at what they can achieve in this game, what it'll take and most importantly how much time it will take. I'm fortunate enough to have quite a bit of time set aside for when I want to play when I decide to play. Other people however have other things/responsibilities to attend to.

Many people just aren't gonna bother to put the effort in to do all the events that came before Delve only to simply be exactly right where they started (read: without a Delve KI or Mega Boss win). Also 2/3rds of the equips you listed on your second post aren't what I would consider easy to get. Only soloable thing is the Kirin's pole. The refresh hat you need a Legion group, you need to know someone who can craft, you need to hope the synth HQs and you need the gil to pay the guy/pay for the materials. Hyaline Hat isnt spammable unless you and and 5 other people are at the point you can 6man it with displacers AND have enough to cruor to circumvent the preceding 3 fights on top of hoping the random loot pool loads your hat.

And suppose you do find people down to do those kinds of things with you, it then becomes a choice to them of doing the above events or doing Delve and it brings us right back around to another instance of cost benefit analysis with everyone's favorite limited resource: time. Of which we all have varying degrees of it to spend on top of various thresholds of how much we're willing to spend on a given in-game activity. While true SE shouldn't design every aspect of the game around such a thing, they should at least show some cognizance of it when designing things because it would at least show that they know who their customers are.

[Daemon]

Sorry to knock your soap boxing a little but some of these points are just weak at best.


Great if you're maximizing your SCH Embrava set. Also Summoning Skill path for SMN maximizing their skill builds. If neither of those apply this isn't needed.

People still play Scholar, in fact its still used in NNI climbs and Delve are choosing Scholar over Whm is many occasions as not only can Scholar keep up MP better with Max merits into Sublimation, but also can equip Hvelgamir and raise TP with Adloquium. By the time MP does run low, even without a bard, Sublimation does a good job but then you still have convert and Embrava is highly used now for its Regen + Regen V Stack and Haste.

Assuming there is even a BLM at X event then you're also looking at Refresh/2, Evoker's Roll, and Ballads just for refresh type effects. I'm not even talking gear yet, oh and did you know even without all this refresh gear a BLM will still hit the enmity cap before they blow their MP if they were to try and blow through their MP.

Well next update will adjust elemental magic, I also read a post of someone building a team of BLM with meteor doing over 50k damage. I wonder how it will be after the update?

Outside of a nice idle piece it's far from must have.



That's amazing if you never got Nares Cap or have no means of getting Nahtirah Hat.

You seem to be making these points as if everyone is on the same level. If people are struggling to even get into delve plasm farming, then your points seem like you are trying to promote other content as irrelevant with these examples. And this is why lower levels are starting to believe that other content is irrelevant by advice as this

I get the point you're trying to make but it's falling on deaf ears because the only people who care about that are the ones who'd rather sit and cry than get off their butt and create groups that will be sub optimal for a while until getting said better gear though a lot of trial and error if they refuse to go through the poorly designed linear progression SE has made.

And Ive seen people complaining that advance players offer no help to the lower levels or people who are not as advance..

Never seen this being stated. I have however seen many times where people state that using Delve Weapons allows for better runs and creates a larger margin for error. Both of which are true.

Ive seen it alot in town and in abby. People talk about this in parties right now.

Again falling on deaf ears because the people who cry about this aren't going to lead groups.

And thats the biggest problem we have, instead of encouraging others to be positive its just best to leave them alone with these issues so they can rage quit and describe how horrible their experience was on FFXI. All because no one was willing to take the initiative to state problems they see and help offer solutions and advice on how to defeat their dissappointments?

Maybe there's so much false information because people choose to interpret instead of read what others say. Maybe it's there because people just don't want to accept their own short comings, take responsibility for them, and then do something about it.

So my points are invalid becaues i may fall into your example of people choosing to interpret instead of reading what others say? Watching people in town endlessly giving advice to others that REM is now totally useless? I didnt create this post without reason.

I have yet to see where people discourage players from doing content they are ready to take on. I mean are there players who're sitting there in Teal/Perle/Aurore honestly expecting to take on say Delve content and not be told no?

I see it all the time, maybe its because we are on totally different servers?

You are not knocking my box of soap in any way.

[Daemon]

Someone come in here and TL : DR sum this up.

My eyes bleed when I read that much wrong/butthurt/whining.

I'm sure more than half is filler.

Lol im not whining, if you read my post im addressing those who are making complaints.

[Karah]

There is entirely too many words, Not even going to lie. I'm not going to use my entire allotment of internet reading on your single post...

You might have some valid points, you might not, most will never read that...

[Daemon]

There is entirely too many words, Not even going to lie. I'm not going to use my entire allotment of internet reading on your single post...

You might have some valid points, you might not, most will never read that...

Yeah cuz reading takes actual work.

[Zagen]

I see it all the time, maybe its because we are on totally different servers?

You are not knocking my box of soap in any way.

While people still use SCH in NNI it's not for Embrava anymore. If you feel the need for that haste in NNI you bring a BRD/SMN at least people who research do. Marches can get the same haste as Embrava except for the whole run. The regen from Embrava was awesome when you could do a run with 2 SCHs and effectively have it for the 30 minutes when you get 3-6 minutes worth it isn't worth as much as it once was.

To put this more into practical terms I'll actually quantify exactly what that 12 enhancing skill gives or rather would potentially give at maximum benefit.

Regen +1 to 2 (depends on rounding from other gear)
Haste 0 to 1 (depends on if this pushes to a divisible by 20 tier)
Refresh 0 to 1 (depends on if this pushes to a divisible by 100 tier)

There's also the small detail that a SCH can actually hit 500 skill without the staff. Some annoying gear to get but hey if you're dedicated to maximizing your SCH chances are you have that gear.
_______________

As to the elemental magic update how exactly does that answer the question of enmity cap? It doesn't not only does it not answer that question it reduces the need for MP restoring gear/effects because MP costs are being reduced while enmity is ignored. Oh and Meteor isn't getting affected at all by that update so if it's doing 50k now it'll do 50k afterward.
_______________

How is pointing out a drop from NNI make NNI irrelevant? I can see how you think pointing out Nahtirah Hat would make VW and NNI irrelevant. However I pointed out the NNI head because that's something you can obtain with 6 people can you take down PW with 6 people who aren't decked out in Delve gear (even then I have my doubts)?
_______________

Delve being impossible without Delve weapons talk must be something exclusive to your server then because like I said never in the context you pointed out, then again maybe you're interpreting when someone shouts for a Delve DD or talks about a Delve DD is better than a non Delve DD as that meaning they're saying it's impossible otherwise then that's on you and not them.
_______________

You have no idea how many times I've tried to tell people they should do X, Y, Z first in game or on these forums only to be told to the effect that they shouldn't have to do old content to participate in the new content. Like I said falling on deaf ears.
_______________

R/E/M in general when you actually consider the context of their relevance (you know endgame) are currently useless besides horn/harp/shields/yagrush/gun/bow. R/E/M were never needed to clear any content they simply made it easier, even now they aren't needed and in a few cases are still useful. I can't help if people ask the wrong people for advice or are too sensitive when asking people who are blunt and matter of fact in their responses.

_______________

I would love an example of a player who was actually ready gear wise to take on delve outside NMs or plasm farming and was then rejected by multiple people. I'd also like to see where said person(s) then shouted to make their own group and never got anywhere beyond 1/18. I have a strong feeling you won't be able to provide that example.

[Daemon]

While people still use SCH in NNI it's not for Embrava anymore. If you feel the need for that haste in NNI you bring a BRD/SMN at least people who research do. Marches can get the same haste as Embrava except for the whole run. The regen from Embrava was awesome when you could do a run with 2 SCHs and effectively have it for the 30 minutes when you get 3-6 minutes worth it isn't worth as much as it once was.

To put this more into practical terms I'll actually quantify exactly what that 12 enhancing skill gives or rather would potentially give at maximum benefit.

Regen +1 to 2 (depends on rounding from other gear)
Haste 0 to 1 (depends on if this pushes to a divisible by 20 tier)
Refresh 0 to 1 (depends on if this pushes to a divisible by 100 tier)

There's also the small detail that a SCH can actually hit 500 skill without the staff. Some annoying gear to get but hey if you're dedicated to maximizing your SCH chances are you have that gear.
_______________

As to the elemental magic update how exactly does that answer the question of enmity cap? It doesn't not only does it not answer that question it reduces the need for MP restoring gear/effects because MP costs are being reduced while enmity is ignored. Oh and Meteor isn't getting affected at all by that update so if it's doing 50k now it'll do 50k afterward.
_______________

How is pointing out a drop from NNI make NNI irrelevant? I can see how you think pointing out Nahtirah Hat would make VW and NNI irrelevant. However I pointed out the NNI head because that's something you can obtain with 6 people can you take down PW with 6 people who aren't decked out in Delve gear (even then I have my doubts)?
_______________

Delve being impossible without Delve weapons talk must be something exclusive to your server then because like I said never in the context you pointed out, then again maybe you're interpreting when someone shouts for a Delve DD or talks about a Delve DD is better than a non Delve DD as that meaning they're saying it's impossible otherwise then that's on you and not them.
_______________

You have no idea how many times I've tried to tell people they should do X, Y, Z first in game or on these forums only to be told to the effect that they shouldn't have to do old content to participate in the new content. Like I said falling on deaf ears.
_______________

R/E/M in general when you actually consider the context of their relevance (you know endgame) are currently useless besides horn/harp/shields/yagrush/gun/bow. R/E/M were never needed to clear any content they simply made it easier, even now they aren't needed and in a few cases are still useful. I can't help if people ask the wrong people for advice or are too sensitive when asking people who are blunt and matter of fact in their responses.

_______________

I would love an example of a player who was actually ready gear wise to take on delve outside NMs or plasm farming and was then rejected by multiple people. I'd also like to see where said person(s) then shouted to make their own group and never got anywhere beyond 1/18. I have a strong feeling you won't be able to provide that example.

Ok but I'm really not trying to debate on whats irrelevant or what's better. I'm just saying people who think all other content has no purpose, that there are still great gears out there that Drlve doesn't give you.



I've already said. Stop making all the content focused around RMED being mandatory weapons. Why is this so hard to grasp? They should be unique tools and extra "punch" not required in all circumstances for every single thing.

There are people in town asking for DREM only for low level content such as NNI and on my server there such drama to the point several other players decided to mock by adding Delve on weapons for VW, Meebles, Lv10 GoV in gusgen mines..

My server is not twisted, I'm sure it happens on others too because I've seen others complain and Im not going to go back and dig them up just to try and prove a point.

[Zagen]

Ok but I'm really not trying to debate on whats irrelevant or what's better. I'm just saying people who think all other content has no purpose, that there are still great gears out there that Drlve doesn't give you.


I never disagreed with that point of old content still being relevant to some, I pointed out your examples were weak in many cases and that the people who those gears would actually benefit aren't even listening, which is the real problem behind the misconception that all old content is now useless.

[Daemon]

I never disagreed with that point of old content still being relevant to some, I pointed out your examples were weak in many cases and that the people who those gears would actually benefit aren't even listening, which is the real problem behind the misconception that all old content is now useless.

You pointed out that my examples are weak based on what conception? My examples are from the realistic point of view new and returning players who haven't even participated in Delve yet. Yeah NNI could be easy for people who are well equipped and know what they doing. Yet so many people I've seen lately are complaining that they can't even get people to do that.
And the ones I'm talking about are the people who don't even have AF3 fully upgraded yet and those who don't even know how to reive and earn Bayld.

[Zagen]

You pointed out that my examples are weak based on what conception? My examples are from the realistic point of view new and returning players who haven't even participated in Delve yet. Yeah NNI could be easy for people who are well equipped and know what they doing. Yet so many people I've seen lately are complaining that they can't even get people to do that.
And the ones I'm talking about are the people who don't even have AF3 fully upgraded yet and those who don't even know how to reive and earn Bayld.

And those people should be getting gear from Abyssea finished up. Then they should be getting gear from Salvage 2.0 if NNI is still too hard. At that point by SE's logic they should be more than ready to take on NNI.

Of those people who haven't even upgraded Emp armor (AF3) how many of them are willing to do the order of events I just pointed out? I know many people in Emp armor +1 or worse who aren't willing to upgraded to +2 let alone follow what I said and expect to get into Delve groups and are pissed when they're rejected.

[Riggs]

i'm pretty confident in saying that on my sever last weekend of the few shouts i saw for VW and plasma farm every single one said rmed weapons, pld's were o/a only and bard's were 3 to 4 songs only. i did not see 1 shout for nm's only facture nm's.
so what hope is there for anyone to catch up, and believe me the vast majority of people complaining here are not sitting around in pink gear waiting to be handed stuff but in full +2 af3 or better, some even with relic weapons but not the so called best jobs so no luck.

[Demon6324236]

The only thing someone can say in that case is to much of this player base lacks the initiative that this game nearly requires. The problem with events in this game is there are to many people standing around waiting for a shout and not enough people out there doing the shouting. This creates an inbalance in the amount of people actually doing events, and since so many people are simply waiting on a group, a group can afford to be picky enough to only include the assumed best. By doing so they assure themselves a higher quality party, and probably wont take much longer to get rolling because so many people who meet the qualifications are still standing around, waiting for a shout to join.

If more people made parties we would see more people in parties, less afk, and as a result of this the chances are the amount of people capable of being so picky as to say RMED only and such would become lower, as there are less of those people simply standing around waiting on shouts. Not only would this include more people into these parties, but it would make the requirements people set for parties harder to fill, which in and of itself helps to alleviate that problem all together. As I said though, part of the problem itself is the fact that so few people actually bother to go out and build parties themselves as opposed to simply waiting for a shout.

Like Ultimas said in his post in his Thread, we expect a lot of leaders in this game, and they are the key to many events, as they must organized everything, gather the people needed, and so on. It is a lot of pressure on someone, a lot of stress trying to get everyone together quickly, not making everyone sit around for a long time, not messing up, I myself messed up the first Plasm farm I made 2 days ago, it made me feel horrible, but in the end, I will do it again, we need more leaders in this community, that is one of the biggest problems we have.

[Nebo]

The only thing someone can say in that case is to much of this player base lacks the initiative that this game nearly requires. The problem with events in this game is there are to many people standing around waiting for a shout and not enough people out there doing the shouting. This creates an inbalance in the amount of people actually doing events, and since so many people are simply waiting on a group, a group can afford to be picky enough to only include the assumed best. By doing so they assure themselves a higher quality party, and probably wont take much longer to get rolling because so many people who meet the qualifications are still standing around, waiting for a shout to join.

This^

This is the reason you see "REMD only" shouts and people get away with them.

Supply of REMD DD's (people sitting around waiting for shouts to pop up) is much much greater than the demand for pickup DDs (Leaders skilled with people skills, experience, knowledge, confidence, motivation shouting for DD's)

A side effect of this is that a lot more players in FFXI are unskilled and unpracticed with group events, relative to other MMOs.

Other MMOs have auto-group systems so even the newest of players can get into groups and fail it up for a while before they start to eventually get the hang of things and become more skilled.

FFXI group system relies almost solely on one person to have all these skills, information and tell everyone else what they need to be doing. Because odds are, many random PUG members you meet, probably won't be practiced doing them.

This situation sort of serves to widen the gap between the "haves and have nots" of people that do events vs people that don't get into events.

But do not mistake this for being the fault of leaders that ask for "REMD ONLY." The current situation is the result of two things: Supply and Demand, and a magnificantly terible (non-existant?) grouping mechanism that is a HUGE barrier to entry for many players (especially newer and less experienced ones)

Neither of those two things is the fault of the playerbase. It is the fault of the dev team for doing nothing about it.

*And that demand is only going to drop more and more each day if something is not done to remedy the R/E/M/D situation.

[Hayward]

Sorry, but this is nothing more than an attempt at deflection. You'll have a hard time convincing me that the players calling out these imbalances are causing FFXI's downfall. I'd say that a lot of professional endgamers are the main cause of this decline. These folks are all out here yelling "R/M/E/D only" and "Aegis/Ochain only" and aren't doing one thing to help people get these things. They get on forums like this and talk like Magian weapons and AF3+2 armor are junk--news flash, Empyrean Armor +2 isn't that far away from Bayld Armor and they fit each job FAR better than the ordinary stats on Bayld gear.

[Demon6324236]

As I said, the problem is how many people are shouting in total. The only reason those people can afford to do that is because others do not shout. If there are 5 Delve people making parties, 50 Delve DDs looking for a party, and 200 people looking for party without Delve weapons, what do you think will happen? Well, each party only needs 3 DDs for each party except the party with the sac which gets 2 DDs, so that's a total of 8 DDs per party, with 50 DDs looking, that's enough DDs for each party with 10 Delve DDs left out. Why would the leaders take non-Delve people when they know enough are looking for a party? They wouldn't. Now, what happens if one of these 200 non-Delve people shout for 1? They will have 10 Delve DDs looking for party, so they might be picky too, but what then? Now only 2 DDs left, assuming none of the 10 left over went as a sac to one of the first 5 parties, so not enough Delve DDs are around to be picky, now the next leader has to take whatever they can get, what happens when one of the first parties come back and need another DD? No Delve DDs, cant be picky, take what they get and go, and so on.

We have to few people who lead and to many people with the weapon, they can be picky and so they are picky, if more people made parties less people would be standing around, less people would be open to parties, and the ability to only take Delve weapon DDs would die out because there would not be a ton of them just standing around anymore. SE has some part of the blame, yes, that is for sure, but so does the player base, because so few people step up to lead things, they take no time to do it, and because of that, nothing changes. If more people would step up to the plate and lead for a change, we might see things going a little better in this game.

Besides that, everyone points fingers, this person wont invite non-Delve DDs, well, question for you, why is it you do not make parties? If people will not take you the easy solution is to make your own parties and at the same time, take people who are in your same situation, you help everyone out, here is the party setup I use.

DDx6 MNKx3 BRDx3 CORx3 WHMx3 Sac
DD DD DD BRD COR WHM - DD DDPuller Sac BRD COR WHM - MNK MNK DD/MNK BRD COR WHM

This is for Morimar. Have the MNK party take down the Mata at the start, have the Sac just be someone with Twilight. The first party stays in the main room at the start, it is very large, have the BRD and COR in that party pull some mobs from outside around the rooms not far away if there are no mobs around in the room for a time, sometimes they can all be dead and it really slows things down. The second party has only 2 DDs, which sucks, my suggestion is to have that party as well as the DD from the MNK party go out and fight stuff in the halls while the MNKs deal with the Mata, if you have 3 MNKs, then just the 2 DDs go to the tunnels. Once the MNKs are done, have them go past the first wall once it goes down, have them beat things down out there, have the DDPuller go with them, again, this should be someone with Twilight. Have them pull the NMs back to the sac, then continue fighting with their party. This should get you a nice bit of Plasm, my run failed a couple days ago so I am still learning and improving, but even with a bad start, we pulled 4950, that was without killing Mata due to the 2 MNKs failing, and the Raptor caused some problems at the start too. All in all, do this, try this, work on it, and in time you may be able to help solve some of the problems around here. If we do nothing ourselves, how can we expect anything to get done in the end?

[SqEnisfilledwithgeniuses]

Someone come in here and TL : DR sum this up.

My eyes bleed when I read that much wrong/butthurt/whining.

I'm sure more than half is filler.

TL;DR

I made a guide, and put lots of my time into it. Stop disagreeing and +1 my posts. I'm right, you're wrong. I have a lv99.
To disagree with anything I say is negativity and harms something somewhere. Did I mention I have a high level?
Rather than trying to get delve gear, participate in obsoleted content that takes longer because no one is interested in doing it anymore.
Now I'm going to cover a few pieces of equipment that I claim to be viable options for high-end content, but are really situational at best.

[Mahoro]

A lot of content hasn't been rendered obsolete, particularly in the realm of armor. Just one small example is -PDT sets, which are essential for Delve. A lot of those pieces come from a smattering of older events. A fair degree of mage gear for SCH and WHM also come from older events.

[Daemon]

Sorry, but this is nothing more than an attempt at deflection. You'll have a hard time convincing me that the players calling out these imbalances are causing FFXI's downfall. I'd say that a lot of professional endgamers are the main cause of this decline. These folks are all out here yelling "R/M/E/D only" and "Aegis/Ochain only" and aren't doing one thing to help people get these things. They get on forums like this and talk like Magian weapons and AF3+2 armor are junk--news flash, Empyrean Armor +2 isn't that far away from Bayld Armor and they fit each job FAR better than the ordinary stats on Bayld gear.

No one is saying AF is Junk. We are saying that if people want to participate in Delve, you have Adoulin gear available to give you enough stats to overcome issues such as Accuracy and magic accuracy. And lets be real here. There are people who are rushing to skip pass areas that can provide you with gear needed to help you.

Especially gear from older content areas that further improve your gear sets that Delve DOES NOT provide.

[Daemon]

TL;DR

I made a guide, and put lots of my time into it. Stop disagreeing and +1 my posts. I'm right, you're wrong. I have a lv99.
To disagree with anything I say is negativity and harms something somewhere. Did I mention I have a high level?
Rather than trying to get delve gear, participate in obsoleted content that takes longer because no one is interested in doing it anymore.
Now I'm going to cover a few pieces of equipment that I claim to be viable options for high-end content, but are really situational at best.

^ Exactly what is said here. Rather having people judge some of us saying that we never help anyone. And then when we try to do so, we have people criticizing us for it.

[Daemon]

A lot of content hasn't been rendered obsolete, particularly in the realm of armor. Just one small example is -PDT sets, which are essential for Delve. A lot of those pieces come from a smattering of older events. A fair degree of mage gear for SCH and WHM also come from older events.

Totally agree.

And so many people are wanting to skip past old content, while it doesn't help when some players are making improper statements that old content is irelevent, and head straight for end game without taking the proper time to collect gear that I've been stressing out in the several comments I've made including the Guide that I've already dedicate almost a week piecing together for those who wonder why they can't get invited to end game events.

Especially it does not help when you have people trying to debate with you because they are not seeing the importance of how basic gear can help those who are still learning therefore find the need to complicate a simple example further.

[Francisco]

"You cannot do delve without a delve weapon"

Really now? So how did everyone do delve when it first came out? So REM made no difference? What about Merit Weapon skills? VW gear? Auction house HQ weapons? So you are saying absolutely no one with a delve weapon is willing to team up with you and help you do some bosses? Because ive been hired by a few people to play RDM for enfeebling magic. And its nice to be noticed that if you are well geared and can accomplish a goal people need help with, you have the ability to meet other people and have fun make use of your hardworking efforts of the job you put massive amounts of time gearing up. And im sure there are many DDs with a huge power Ego wanting to show off thier new massive amounts of damage they can deal.


It's basically true. Maybe it's just Shiva, but the following are true:

- Delve Shouts are rare.

- The Delve Shouts you see are almost invariably for BRD, COR, BLU or PLD.

- In the extremely rare instances you see a shout for DD, the shout almost always specifies "Delve Weapon DD" - if you send a tell saying, "hey, I've got an empyrean/relic monk here", not only do you not get in the alliance, you flat out get ignored.

People are complete dicks about Delve, and the elitism is just ridiculous. Last week, there was even a shout on Shiva for Salvage 2, Delve DD only.

[OmnysValefor]

The TL;DR of this post is apparently that Yagrush isn't worthless.

It isn't, noone would be fool enough to say that it is.

When people talk about RME being worthless, they mean that everything besides Aegis, Ochain, Gollyhorn, Darblahblah, Burtgang, Yagrush, The bard dagger.. uh.. think that's it... are worthless.

Atm, however, yagrush is the game's most expensive macro piece, and burtgang is only for idling, but that's fine because so much of what paladin does now is idle.

[Daemon]

The TL;DR of this post is apparently that Yagrush isn't worthless.

It isn't, noone would be fool enough to say that it is.

When people talk about RME being worthless, they mean that everything besides Aegis, Ochain, Gollyhorn, Darblahblah, Burtgang, Yagrush, The bard dagger.. uh.. think that's it... are worthless.

Atm, however, yagrush is the game's most expensive macro piece, and burtgang is only for idling, but that's fine because so much of what paladin does now is idle.

Ok then players need to state the item they think is totally worthless rather than generalizing it by saying "REM is totally worthless" because these words can effect other people's motivation toward working on these items.

I'm saying there are still purposes for REM that Delve cannot give you. Look at it from my point of view for a second. Take away REM completely and what do you have? Only Merit Weaponskill? So how would players struggle even more if they had to only use this for Adoulin / Delve? Relic weaponskills are still good, Emp ws are still good, and mythics have good ws that people "Could" incorporate into battle strategy.

Rather lazily add a quick short comment generalizing a huge topic without proper explanation. This is how other players can be effected in misleading people to believe those who are not making proper statements.

Redmage was pretty much left out on a lot of content just as BST, SMN, PUP and other jobs are limited on ability to participate in certain events. Therefore not every job or skill is suited for every single content. So maybe some REM may not be suitable for Delve now that Delve weapons allow people to use "Merit Weaponskills" with more power.

This is why I'm saying some people need to becareful when stating topics as fact. Because now those who don't have any REM are probably talking about how they "heard" it's useless therefore further promoting misinformation throughout conversations in parties.

Just as some players who never played delve assume that "Delve weapons" are the only best thing to push other people aside and not invite those who don't have them.

Misguided information only makes it worse for those who are returning to FFXI, or those who are NOT as advance in knowledge as the people who are.

[Daemon]

It's basically true. Maybe it's just Shiva, but the following are true:

- Delve Shouts are rare.

- The Delve Shouts you see are almost invariably for BRD, COR, BLU or PLD.

- In the extremely rare instances you see a shout for DD, the shout almost always specifies "Delve Weapon DD" - if you send a tell saying, "hey, I've got an empyrean/relic monk here", not only do you not get in the alliance, you flat out get ignored.

People are complete dicks about Delve, and the elitism is just ridiculous. Last week, there was even a shout on Shiva for Salvage 2, Delve DD only.

^And this is exactly what the purpose of my post was about. "Your actions is effecting the entire community" and others saying that it must only be on my server... Ours is not the only to be facing this issue.

[OmnysValefor]

I get your point, but people could think a little more independently for themselves. I say REM are worthless while I wield the two shields and am slowly, surely, building a burtgang.

The vastness of the statement is only slightly greater than the vastness of the truth: In one swoop, SE outdated 90% of RME, the only exceptions being weapons that weren't meant for damage.

I know you think it did, but this top didn't need a thread of its own.

[detlef]

Sorry, but this is nothing more than an attempt at deflection. You'll have a hard time convincing me that the players calling out these imbalances are causing FFXI's downfall. I'd say that a lot of professional endgamers are the main cause of this decline. These folks are all out here yelling "R/M/E/D only" and "Aegis/Ochain only" and aren't doing one thing to help people get these things. They get on forums like this and talk like Magian weapons and AF3+2 armor are junk--news flash, Empyrean Armor +2 isn't that far away from Bayld Armor and they fit each job FAR better than the ordinary stats on Bayld gear.The professional endgamers make much, much more plasm per hour in their own linkshell runs killing NMs and wouldn't even bother with pickup plasm. The elite of the elite probably are not responsible for any of this job/gear discrimination. I actually think it's the middle class with aspirations of leetness who are far more discriminatory.

[Karah]

Judging by the replies, and the AWESOME tl;dr's I think that's what he's missing.

We, (I, me whoever) make extensive use of hyperbole, I've made a few references to this in previous posts.

By ALL RME being worthless, it's stated with the knowing that;

This only means as a damage source. Shields, utilities, macro pieces etc, are still awesome.

However, adding the caveat that yagrush is an epic macro piece, even though all other mythics are trash at this particular point in time is foolish. It's quicker, it gets the point across that ALL of them are junk. Not 99.1% since yagrush isn't a weapon its a nifty piece of equipment you happen to wear in your hand instead of on your hand.

The negativity thing, well, there's a distinct possibility that most of it is caused by, or fueled by me (and a couple others)... Humans as a whole are a negative (realistic) ((usually)) species. It's much more realistic to stop trying to be optimistic after you've seen what's been done and how it's been handled. If you still have an optimistic bone in your body after the more recent promises/updates... I applaud you sir.

[Daemon]

I get your point, but people could think a little more independently for themselves. I say REM are worthless while I wield the two shields and am slowly, surely, building a burtgang.

The vastness of the statement is only slightly greater than the vastness of the truth: In one swoop, SE outdated 90% of RME, the only exceptions being weapons that weren't meant for damage.

I know you think it did, but this top didn't need a thread of its own.

Player one: "Is REM worth getting??"
(Maybe new or returning player asking)

Player two: "Lol REM, No one needs that anymore because Delve Weapon made everything useless " (Most likely because this person was denied being invited for not having a delve weapon)


Player three: "Why waste your time when you can get delve weapons faster?"
(Maybe doesn't even own one but got a delve weapon already by playing a job such as Bard, WHM so has no idea what REM weapons can do)

Player four: "It's outdated who cares about REM anymore"
(Dissappointed that they were working on an REM and gave up and really doesn't care about anything)

Yelling in Jeuno in conversations like these is promoting to others who have no knowledge of the topic can effect people's decision and motivate players not to do them.

So then topics made to talk about how things are irrelevant deserve its own post and not the ones defending saying their not...

And yes this is exactly the /Yell I saw in Jeuno.

[Sparthos]

The idea not enough people are shouting groups is without merit. Getting DD for Delve is easy enough, if you then want to shout upwards of an hour looking for healers, tanks, zombies etc. The fact is that the shout pool is shallow, people dont care to spend hours building a subpar plasm party and the good players are probably doing LS runs thus need not join pickups.

This is for the premier content! Shouting older content like Meebles could have you begging for 3-4 people all day.

In the past you could simply keep fishing for randoms and offset the need for great players through sheer force and numbers but right now when servers are dipping below 800 at some hours options are limited.

[Francisco]

^And this is exactly what the purpose of my post was about. "Your actions is effecting the entire community" and others saying that it must only be on my sever... Ours is not the only to be facing this issue.

Well, I wasn't really sure if you were admonishing the players (like me) who say "you can't do Delve without a Delve weapon, because no one will invite you", or the players who say "we won't invite you because you don't have a Delve weapon" (and heck, I don't even get that... they just don't respond.

Again, one person's perspective, but it's basically ended my interest in FFXI going forward. It's easy to say "wow, Shiva sucks", but I can't imagine other servers are much better. The FFXI community has long since turned to trash.

The Devs don't get a free pass here either. It's beyond me why they thought/think the path they've taken is a good one. Love or hate Abyssea, it did let players accomplish quite a bit at the drop of the hat with minimal support. This was a good thing, considering the awful, awful, period between WotG and Abyssea basically killed all the end game linkshells. To suddenly go back to 18-man content after Abyssea was insane. It forces people into pickup groups which sucks for about a million reasons.

Combine the need for pickup groups with the totally arbitrary psychotic stats they threw on new weapons, and it just becomes much, much worse for everyone from a progressive point of view.

Lost in all of this is that FFXI is supposed to be a game. People want to log on and play the game, participate in the content, often with the few friends they have left on this God-forsaken software. All too often it's either sitting around waiting for shouts, or sitting around, shouting, and giving up when there's no tanks or healers.

At this stage in the game's life, it's amazing the devs still think it's a good idea to add primarily 18-man content.

[Daemon]

Well, I wasn't really sure if you were admonishing the players (like me) who say "you can't do Delve without a Delve weapon, because no one will invite you", or the players who say "we won't invite you because you don't have a Delve weapon" (and heck, I don't even get that... they just don't respond.

Again, one person's perspective, but it's basically ended my interest in FFXI going forward. It's easy to say "wow, Shiva sucks", but I can't imagine other servers are much better. The FFXI community has long since turned to trash.

The Devs don't get a free pass here either. It's beyond me why they thought/think the path they've taken is a good one. Love or hate Abyssea, it did let players accomplish quite a bit at the drop of the hat with minimal support. This was a good thing, considering the awful, awful, period between WotG and Abyssea basically killed all the end game linkshells. To suddenly go back to 18-man content after Abyssea was insane. It forces people into pickup groups which sucks for about a million reasons.

Combine the need for pickup groups with the totally arbitrary psychotic stats they threw on new weapons, and it just becomes much, much worse for everyone from a progressive point of view.

Lost in all of this is that FFXI is supposed to be a game. People want to log on and play the game, participate in the content, often with the few friends they have left on this God-forsaken software. All too often it's either sitting around waiting for shouts, or sitting around, shouting, and giving up when there's no tanks or healers.

At this stage in the game's life, it's amazing the devs still think it's a good idea to add primarily 18-man content.

Ok now I can agree with you on these points. But my purpose was to point out an issue that I see is going on. And this topic was only 1 of the many others. But since I've yet to see anyone step up and say something positive to other players, this is why I've been trying so hard to take the initiative to add some positivity back into the community rather sit and watch all these rants go on.

FF14 is around the corner, and these negative comments, posts, complaints are only feeding fire to several other players giving them less motivation and possibly a better reason to quit and drop the game to move over to 14.

[Nebo]

^And this is exactly what the purpose of my post was about. "Your actions is effecting the entire community" and others saying that it must only be on my sever... Ours is not the only to be facing this issue.

I think you are recognizing a problem but misplacing the blame.

In my oppinon, the real problem here is not elitism. That may be a symptom of the problem, but it is not the disease.

The way I see it, the root of this problem is a combination of things:


Only a handful of jobs are really useful in delve. So the majority of players that farm delve on a regular basis, generally do so on jobs they don't enjoy as much and view it as work. They usually want to do it the most efficient way they can for the work they put in.

This is something I think job/content adjustments to promote more job inclusion would go a long way to allieviate.

There is no auto-group function so it usually falls to one person to organize, shout, give instructions, listen to bitching...blah blah.

This is the major issue creating the lack of demand for pickup DDs. This is just simple economics. Anytime you have a supply (lots of DDs sitting around) this high with demand (limited shout groups being formed) this low...the price (R/E/M/D requirements) goes up.

It's fine to say "Well, these lazy players should just form their own groups" but in all practicality that logic doesn't work.

For starters, the majority of FFXI players don't read these forums, BG, research Wiki's, or even have basic understanding of game mechanics and job roles in an alliance setting. So the mere IDEA of forming a group of up to 17 strangers is a preeeetty daunting task. Most have enough problems just learning how to play, gear and become skilled with their own jobs.

Even lots of intelligent, talented, skilled players are just not cut out to be leaders. Social Anxiety, Poor communication skills, language barriers, poor conflict resolution skills, etc are not uncommon in our community.

IT CAN TAKE HOURS for even skilled delve leaders to form a PUG. It can be a very off-putting exerience. And if your PUG members see that you are bringing sub-par jobs with sup-par gear, getting sub par plasm per run...you will start to see it take even longer to fill your shout groups. Probably leading to burn out form trying to build delve groups and eventual unsubscription.

There are lots of people sitting around waiting for shouts that have all of the things being asked for.


So while I agree that there is a lot of negativity right now, I disagree that playerbase attitude problems are the root cause.

I think it is the lack of built in grouping functionality, lack of fixes to important problems, and recent drastic changes that donkey kicked an 11 year old paradigm right in the nuts.

I don't think it will change either without some serious work from the development team that they do not seem to have the resources to pull off.

But this is nothing new. Negativity is not new, and it is someting that this dev team is particularly adept at fueling with some pretty strange decisions (long before SoA).

And they pretty clealry have a limited understanding of the game they are developing. Which is frustrating because they communicate with us so little...and seem to focus on wierd cutesy things while major problems go unaddressed.

[Daemon]

Judging by the replies, and the AWESOME tl;dr's I think that's what he's missing.

We, (I, me whoever) make extensive use of hyperbole, I've made a few references to this in previous posts.

By ALL RME being worthless, it's stated with the knowing that;

This only means as a damage source. Shields, utilities, macro pieces etc, are still awesome.

However, adding the caveat that yagrush is an epic macro piece, even though all other mythics are trash at this particular point in time is foolish. It's quicker, it gets the point across that ALL of them are junk. Not 99.1% since yagrush isn't a weapon its a nifty piece of equipment you happen to wear in your hand instead of on your hand.

The negativity thing, well, there's a distinct possibility that most of it is caused by, or fueled by me (and a couple others)... Humans as a whole are a negative (realistic) ((usually)) species. It's much more realistic to stop trying to be optimistic after you've seen what's been done and how it's been handled. If you still have an optimistic bone in your body after the more recent promises/updates... I applaud you sir.

And negativity can possibly make a persons actions careless without thinking leading to a person to become narrow minded in their way of thought which could promote their ideas to others as fact based on their emotions that were corrupted by their experience.

And we know some people tend to base decisions on other players advice through hearsay.

[Daemon]

I think you are recognizing a problem but misplacing the blame.

In my oppinon, the real problem here is not elitism. That may be a symptom of the problem, but it is not the disease.

The way I see it, the root of this problem is a combination of things:


Only a handful of jobs are really useful in delve. So the majority of players that farm delve on a regular basis, generally do so on jobs they don't enjoy as much and view it as work. They usually want to do it the most efficient way they can for the work they put in.

This is something I think job/content adjustments to promote more job inclusion would go a long way to allieviate.

There is no auto-group function so it usually falls to one person to organize, shout, give instructions, listen to bitching...blah blah.

This is the major issue creating the lack of demand for pickup DDs. This is just simple economics. Anytime you have a supply (lots of DDs sitting around) this high with demand (limited shout groups being formed) this low...the price (R/E/M/D requirements) goes up.

It's fine to say "Well, these lazy players should just form their own groups" but in all practicality that logic doesn't work.

For starters, the majority of FFXI players don't read these forums, BG, research Wiki's, or even have basic understanding of game mechanics and job roles in an alliance setting. So the mere IDEA of forming a group of up to 17 strangers is a preeeetty daunting task.

Even lots of intelligent, talented, skilled players are just not cut out to be leaders. Social Anxiety, Poor communication skills, language barriers, poor conflict resolution skills, etc are not uncommon in our community.

IT CAN TAKE HOURS for even skilled delve leaders to form a PUG. It can be a very off-putting exerience. And if your PUG members see that you are bringing sub-par jobs with sup-par gear, getting sub par plasm per run...you will start to see it take even longer to fill your shout groups. Probably leading to burn out form trying to build delve groups and eventual unsubscription.

There are lots of people sitting around waiting for shouts that have all of the things being asked for.


So while I agree that there is a lot of negativity right now, I disagree that playerbase attitude problems are the root problem.

I think its the lack of built in grouping functionality, lack of fixes to important problems, and recent drastic changes that flipped an 11 year old game flat on its head that is causing the negativity.

I don't think it will change either without some serious work from the development team that they do not seem to have the resources to pull off.

Well from my point of view is that any job "Could" be useful if others actually took the time to party with different jobs and experiment (And because leveling quickly in 18 man alliances doesn't offer people this option properly)

So a lot of parties are built based on what they know "Works" leading to "Favor" certain jobs than others. Which leads to leaving out people based on "Discrimination" (and people don't even realize it)

Im in a JP LS that does many events where they don't set such high standards and criticize others for not having certain gear or jobs.

Everytime we gather for events I ask My JP LS Leader "What job do you want me to play?"
And she "ALWAYS" says. "Anything np ^^"

I've even gone Gimp on certain jobs because I logged on late without having time to gear up. And they are so nice, even say that it doesn't matter whether we win or lose, but that it only matters that we had a good time trying. And because they never make narrow minded decisions we are able to try different jobs and learn from our failures and have a good time rather only see a goal and enforce greed into our actions.

So this is where a lot of my points are coming from.

Again here is where I stand to say "Your actions is effecting the entire community"

And this is why I tend to see a lot of excuses overshadowing people's unreasonable logic to things that could be made simple if people re-observe their way of thinking and how it effects others.

[Nebo]

Well from my point of view is that any job "Could" be useful if others actually took the time to party with different jobs and experiment (And because leveling quickly in 18 man alliances doesn't offer people this option properly)

So a lot of parties are built based on what they know "Works" leading to "Favor" certain jobs than others. Which leads to leaving out people based on "Discrimination" (and people don't even realize it)

Im in a JP LS that does many events where they don't set such high standards and criticize others for not having certain gear or jobs.

Everytime we gather for events I ask My JP LS Leader "What job do you want me to play?"
And she "ALWAYS" says. "Anything np ^^"

I've even gone Gimp on certain jobs because I logged on late without having time to gear up. And they are so nice, even say that it doesn't matter whether we win or lose, but that it only matters that we had a good time trying. And because they never make narrow minded decisions we are able to try different jobs and learn from our failures and have a good time rather only see a goal and enforce greed into our actions.

So this is where a lot of my points are coming from.

Again here is where I stand to say again "You actions is effecting the entire community"

And you are perfectly entitled to enjoy that style of play and have that fun. No one can fault you for that.

However, I think you are wrong to point the finger at the players forming PUG groups for not finding that scenario fun.

It would be more accurate to say that "the dev team is harming the community by not adressing some of the more fundamental issues with gameplay, while making crazy changes."

[Daemon]

And you are perfectly entitled to enjoy that style of play and have that fun. No one can fault you for that.

However, I think you are wrong to point the finger at the players forming PUG groups for not finding that scenario fun.

Have you tried other party setups with an open mind? Rather than see defeat did you go back and learn from your mistakes and try other things? Or are you basing your party setups with what you "Know only works"?

[Daemon]

It's already been proven that you don't need 18 man parties to kill every single thing in game. And had people been more open to freely invite other people without discrimination, others might learn to use other jobs freely and learn different things.


Our community lacks people willing to set good examples to others so everyone can participate and enjoy the game rather than be turned down for not having what's needed to accomplish your greedy goal set to help you advance faster than others.

[Nebo]

Have you tried other party setups with an open mind? Rather than see defeat did you go back and learn from your mistakes and try other things? Or are you basing your party setups with what you "Know only works"?

Me? Of course. I'm an obssessive THF. I inject my THF into tons of places where it doesn't belong ;). But I do not kid myself into thinking I'm putting out anywhere near the DD of an actual DD. And I am a better THF than 95% of the ones you will ever see.

But...some leaders like to think that it's worth THing the mobs for airlixirs...so thats something I guess?

The issue is not that people "just don't know what's good because they never tried it." This game is 11 years old.

The issue with job discrimination is that theres a SERIOUS imbalance of power among jobs. And the dev team refuses to fix that issue.

The issue is that the dev team creates crazy events with silly time restrictions that promote optimal setup formation to succeed.

None of this is the fault of the player base. These are all the result of design flaws.

[Daemon]

Me? Of course. I'm an obssessive THF. I inject my THF into tons of places where it doesn't belong ;). But I do not kid myself into thinking I'm putting out anywhere near the DD of an actual DD. And I am a better THF than 95% of the ones you will ever see.

But...some leaders like to think that it's worth THing the mobs for airlixirs...so thats something I guess?

The issue is not that people "just don't know what's good because they never tried it." This game is 11 years old.

The issue with job discrimination is that theres a SERIOUS imbalance of power among jobs. And the dev team refuses to fix that issue.

Oh really now? Ive done ADL with my JP LS with so many different jobs from having PLD DRK THF DRG RDM WHM SCH BRD BST and every other job that's out there and no matter what build we experiment with, the goal can be accomplished regardless.

That's the problem, people are only fixed on how much plasm they can earn and how many items they can get as quick as possible rather than just enjoy the game with others and put people first above material items.

You can blame it on design flaws but its people who make the experiance worthwhile.

[Nebo]

Oh really now? Ive done ADL with my JP LS with so many different jobs from having PLD DRK THF DRG RDM WHM SCH BRD BST and every other job that's out there and no matter what build we experiment with, the goal can be accomplished regardless.

That's the problem, people are only fixed on how much plasm they can earn and how many items they can get as quick as possible rather than just enjoy the game with others and put people first above items.

If the game had an autogrouping function, and with a couple of job tweaks here and there, I could see this happening on the regular.

But most people aren't leaders, don't know how to from groups for ADL, are scared to form groups for ADL. And there is that HUGE barrier in their way that is the horrible grouping mechanics of FFXI.

Is it wrong that there are people that find getting the most plasm per run to be the most fun? Is it wrong that people don't find it fun to play the way your LS does?

Or is it wrong that the game does not support group forming for people that are not cut out to be leaders but still want to try content and have fun/meet people, regardless of how many times they lose?

The problem is that the game's current system depends on leaders that have generally done the content so much that they are fixed on doing it the most efficient way they know how.

The reality is that most players are not cut out to be leaders and this current system excludes them.

That is not the fault of the playerbase. That is a design flaw.

[Daemon]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34286-Delve-Boss-Battle-Status-Update

This shows me these people did not discrimate others based on job and tried a different approach allowing them to accomplish a very high goal of winning the objective. If they can do it, so can everyone else.

[Daemon]

If the game had an autogrouping function, and with a couple of job tweaks here and there, I could see this happening on the regular.

But most people aren't leaders, don't know how to from groups for ADL, are scared to form groups for ADL. And there is that HUGE barrier in their way that is the horrible grouping mechanics of FFXI.

The problem is that the game depends on leaders that have generally done the content so much that they are fixed on doing it the most efficient way they know how.

The reality is that most players are not cut out to be leaders and this current system excludes them. That is not the fault of the playerbase. That is a design flaw.

You are constantly blaming design flaw for people's actions. If that's the case then all games are flawed. No matter what team you create to fight any monster, it's the group of people who are killing it, not the design flaw.

[Nebo]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34286-Delve-Boss-Battle-Status-Update

This shows me these people did not discrimate others based on job and tried a different approach allowing them to accomplish a very high goal of winning the objective. If they can do it, so can everyone else.

A: there were 4 jobs listed in that post.

B: ONLY relic RNGs are used for boss fights. No Relic = No RNG. DRG is only there for agnon. If no agnon, DRG would not be used. GEO and SCH are support jobs that are always goign to have a slot.

Very inclusive :rolleyes:

But to respond to your point, "everyone else" cannot beat delve bosses. They were not designed nor intented to be beaten by everyone.

Delve bosses are a prime example of the devs fueling job exclusion. It is content that doesn't really allow for bringing weaker jobs because you are also on a time limit.

[Zagen]

That's the problem, people are only fixed on how much plasm they can earn and how many items they can get as quick as possible rather than just enjoy the game with others and put people first above material items.
That's what some people find to be enjoyable for them. The real problem is plasm farming isn't designed to be efficient without key jobs. That's a developer issue and thus far has been intentional design.

Shout fracture farming on average nets around 4k and 8-10 airlixirs. I've been on 8-10k plasm runs but I'd be a liar if I said that was even remotely an average for most shout groups.

In contrast a group of at least a decent WHM/PLD/SCH/RDM, 4 good DDs(pre SoA good),and a healer could farm Volatile Matamata in about 8 minutes~. That's 5-6 fights in the same 45 minutes, or 2,500-3,000 plasm and a guaranteed 30-36 Airlixir (1-2 from each fight can be a +1 so 5-12 could be replaced by a +1). Now this would be a viable way to farm plasm if it wasn't for the 1 ??? spawn point meaning the moment competition shows up your potential plummets.

[Daemon]

Everyone else cannot beat delve bosses. They were not designed nor intented to be beaten by everyone.

And delve bosses are the prime example of the devs fueling job exclusion. It is content that doesn't really allow for bringing weaker jobs because you are also on a time limit.

And you know this as 100% fact? So you've gone out and tried every possible party setup with every person with the best high end gear and are able to come to the conclusion that you know this is 100% fact.

[Daemon]

That's what some people find to be enjoyable for them. The real problem is plasm farming isn't designed to be efficient without key jobs. That's a developer issue and thus far has been intentional design.

Shout fracture farming on average nets around 4k and 8-10 airlixirs. I've been on 8-10k plasm runs but I'd be a liar if I said that was even remotely an average for most shout groups.

In contrast a group of at least a decent WHM/PLD/SCH/RDM, 4 good DDs(pre SoA good),and a healer could farm Volatile Matamata in about 8 minutes~. That's 5-6 fights in the same 45 minutes, or 2,500-3,000 plasm and a guaranteed 30-36 Airlixir (1-2 from each fight can be a +1 so 5-12 could be replaced by a +1). Now this would be a viable way to farm plasm if it wasn't for the 1 ??? spawn point meaning the moment competition shows up your potential plummets.

Again this is the perfect example. You are only focusing on how much plasm and items can be obtained in the time limit rather putting people first and caring about enjoying the time playing with others and learning new things with different people.

Who cares if you can earn 1k, 5k, 9k plasm or how many elixirs drop. Regardless of how many times you do a delve plasm party. You and everyone else will earn plasm regardless.

Now what everyone is too heavily focused on is that they want the best as fast a possible and then after getting that complain there's nothing else out there to do therefore some end up sitting in town all day bored or move on to not playing the game anymore because they reached their personal goals too fast.

Again this basing on self gain and instead of putting others first rather than how you can get what you wanted, this is how the entire game is effected rather than just delve or just VW or any other event.

Some argue RDM is useless in VW but ignore the fact that RDM can still cover T2-4 and helix with SCH sub while also having blind, poison and Dispel for other procs.

Some people ignore that Summoner can provide group healing, walk speed, and all stat buffs with Fenrir. And perfect defense with Alex.

Some ignore that BLM could be used for Meteor in some of the gaming strategies.

The jobs are there, the skills are there, but people ignore these facts all because they are only focused on items and materials rather than take a closer look.

[Nebo]

And you know this as 100% fact? So you've gone out and tried every possible party setup with every person with the best high end gear and are able to come to the conclusion that you know this is 100% fact.

I do actually.

The developers themselves said that not everyone is supposed to beat them.

AND that you are supposed to have (:eek:) delve gear to be able to kill them.

[Nebo]

Again this is the perfect example. You are only focusing on how much plasm and items can be obtained in the time limit rather putting people first and caring about enjoying the time playing with others and learning new things with different people.

I think the problem is that you are expecting other people to share your definition of fun.

It is also pretty clear that in FFXI, your definition of fun is the minority with most people that form groups.

Now...if the game had its own group-finder where everyone could just link up and try whatever and be all chill about it, that would go long way for people who are not leaders to have fun.

[Zagen]

Again this is the perfect example. You are only focusing on how much plasm and items can be obtained in the time limit rather putting people first and caring about enjoying the time playing with others and learning new things with different people.
Because I was going off the point of view of players who're after the most plasm/airlixirs, that's why I started with "that's what some people find enjoyable".

By the way did you notice how non descriptive the Volatile Matamata setup is? Did you notice how it only has 6 slots taken up? How about how I pointed out good by pre SoA standards?

I ask all these questions not hoping you'll answer them but hoping you realize that setup not only is a better option for those after maximizing plasm/airlixirs it's also perfect for people who're open to bringing different jobs that may not be the typical cookie cutter defacto options for fracture farming.

[Daemon]

Plasm wasn't designed to be heavily focused so you can achieve your goal fastest way possible, it was designed so that everyone could enjoy obtaining some as a group and everyone accomplish their goals together as a team regardless of how long the process takes, yet people rather use statistics above people and this what's separating everyone from the game that was made so everyone could help each other out at all levels. But today it's all about "Me" and how I. Can race past others quickly as possible so "I" can be the best.

[Nebo]

Plasm wasn't designed to be heavily focused so you can achieve your goal fastest way possible, it was designed so that everyone could enjoy obtaining some as a group and everyone accomplish their goals together as a team regardless of how long the process takes

And you know this 100%? as 100% FACT!? ;)

Daemon, muh Brutha. You aren't going to get very far with this.

You and your LS do what is fun for you guys and that's cool. But you are expecting other people to define fun the way you do and getting pissed because they don't.

That is wrong...and it's not even the problem causing the issues you are upset about.

You just don't see it.

[Daemon]

I do actually.

The developers themselves said that not everyone is supposed to beat them.

AND that you are supposed to have (:eek:) delve gear to be able to kill them.

And it's because you are stating this it gives others the reason to incorporate your information into all other parts of the game. So it's best to continue to discrimate those who dedicated so much effort and time into to their jobs all because people don't want to waste time getting less items and plasm because that's more important.

Even back in the old HNM LS days rather than limiting thier parties to 18 man alliances, they chose to include more people by having them stand on the side to quickly rep those who have fallen. However it's understood that this will not work in areas such as fractures, VW ETC however what is stopping those from doing this in outside NM pop zones?

I've done VW bosses with 3 people compared to 18, displacers were added so low man groups could participate when there's not a lot of people willing to join these groups.

People still today think Redmage Chainspell is useless but many people who have invited me to do it have changed their thoughts on what they believed was fact from listening to others making misinformative statements without actually knowing the truth.

You may need highest hardcore standards for higher Tier bosses in Delve but that doesn't mean you need them for the lower ones.

[Nebo]

And it's because you are stating this it gives others the reason to incorporate your information into all other parts of the game. So it's best to continue to discrimate those who dedicated so much effort and time into to their jobs all because people don't want to waste time getting less items and plasm

You are right. But it's not me that said these things. It was Matsui.


Even back in the old HNM LS days rather than limiting thier parties to 18 man alliances, they chose to include more people by having them stand on the side to quickly rep those who have fallen. However it's understood that this will not work in areas such as fractures, VW ETC however what is stopping those from doing this in outside NM pop zones?

Edit:

Oh, I see you are talking about T1-5NMs? That's probably because of the 20 minute time limit, it's easy to fight them next to a bivouac and Home Point => return if you die, and people outside the alliance don't get the KI - Which is generally the only reason that groups who cannot kill them with 18 or less in a matter of minutes kill ouside NMs

There's really no point to doing it that way.


You may need highest hardcore standards for higher Tier bosses in Delve but that doesn't mean you need them for the lower ones.

The post you referred to was talking about delve fracture bosses, not the tier 1-5 NMs.

[Daemon]

And you know this 100%? as 100% FACT!? ;)

Daemon, muh Brutha. You aren't going to get very far with this.

You and your LS do what is fun for you guys and that's cool. But you are expecting other people to define fun the way you do and getting pissed because they don't.

That is wrong...and it's not even the problem causing the issues you are upset about.

You just don't see it.

I'm not talking about Delve although this is starting to shift the topic into another Delve conversation. I'm talking about people "Could" be open minded to trying other things and include others if people were not so heavily focused on statistics all because they only "know what works"

I use to have the same mindset until I joined my JP LS and learned that regardless of how you party with certain jobs. There are different strategies and ways to accomplish the same goal.

To earn 30k plasm can be done in a few delve runs if the group is netting 9k per run, that's only 3 1/2 Delve runs so it can be done in just a few hours.

Why should it matter that you earn this is a few hours and leave everybody else out? Especially knowing that it can be accomplished so quickly compared to those who have to spend so much time earning REM?

Again this is my point on how "Your actions effect the entire community"

Since when ever did we play NMs only for the items and not for the fun of if? Isn't that the point of the every game? To have fun?

I assure you I am not complaining. I already have the privilege to play T5 bosses. But again this is not about me but for you and everyone else in game that is or can be effected. I'm just stepping up to point out what I see.

Rather than continue to see these rants about how people don't want to team up anymore, or people having unreasonable high standards for things that are not even necessary.

Then there's loss of motivation, some rage quitting or losing interest in the game itself blaming the game mechanics and flaws and absolutely no one pointing out anything about players actions and how reactions define the mechanics itself.

FF 14 around the corner, im wondering how much of the server is going to be left after a good portion quits and moves over for such huge disappointments that the playerbase has become fed up with the actions of others? How their experiance in FF11 was ruined by selfishness, greed, boredom.

It's not the game that's the problem, it's us as a community not taking a closer look at how we can all make the game better by our actions and make better decisions for the rest of us.

No matter what game you play, we all make an impact on each other. We allow certain aspects of the game to change us and define how we choose to play but that doesn't give any reason to lose our morality.

People can continue to blame the game, mechanics, or how old the game is, but it's us as human beings that make the experience worthwhile.

[Daemon]

You are right. But it's not me that said these things. It was Matsui.



Edit:

Oh, I see you are talking about T1-5NMs? That's probably because of the 20 minute time limit, it's easy to fight them next to a bivouac and Home Point => return if you die, and people outside the alliance don't get the KI - Which is generally the only reason that groups who cannot kill them with 18 or less in a matter of minutes kill ouside NMs

There's really no point to doing it that way.



The post you referred to was talking about delve fracture bosses, not the tier 1-5 NMs.

Some of these bosses I've done extremely easy with others by only having 1 good redmage and few good DDs. That doesn't mean the rest of the slots should be heavily focused on having extra jobs that are not even needed favoring those over others.

[Daemon]

Oh, I see you are talking about T1-5NMs? That's probably because of the 20 minute time limit, it's easy to fight them next to a bivouac and Home Point => return if you die, and people outside the alliance don't get the KI - Which is generally the only reason that groups who cannot kill them with 18 or less in a matter of minutes kill ouside NMs

There's really no point to doing it that


I thought only people need to be in party upon killing NM to get the Ki? So it's not possible to pop the NM more than once? Why would you Homepoint? No raise?

The purpose of switching out members is to allow the ones who died have time to unweaken.

I'm sure there are those who have Arise can help you accomplish that more effectively. If its LS event, then having senior members who don't need the win stand on the side to jump in and use the spell to allow those lessen the time on weakened status to 3 minutes.

[Nebo]

I'm truly sorry that you are unhappy with the current situation. I think it would be fair to say that a lot of people are.

But you are out of your mind if you think that the problems FFXI is facing right now are the result of all the players just simultaneously, arbitrarily, and universally deciding to be negative and unhappy without any reason.

[Nebo]

Why would you Homepoint? No raise?

That would be the combination of weakness timer and 20 minute time limit on the fight.

Raise is a waste of time

[Nebo]

Some of these bosses I've done extremely easy with others by only having 1 good redmage and few good DDs. That doesn't mean the rest of the slots should be heavily focused on having extra jobs that are not even needed favoring those over others.

You are not talking about "bosses" You are talking about tier 1-5 "NMs." Big difference

[Nebo]

I thought only people need to be in party upon killing NM to get the Ki? So it's not possible to pop the NM more than once? Why would you Homepoint? No raise?

The purpose of switching out members is to allow the ones who died have time to unweaken.

People are having hard enough of a time finding a group of 18 PUG people to do NMs with...your solution to that is to suggest that they build groups of ....more than 18 people to kill NMs?

This is getting wierd.

[Demon6324236]

The purpose of switching out members is to allow the ones who died have time to unweaken.There is literally no point in staying around unweak when you can home point to Adoulin and waypoint back out in half the time while having no chance at dying again while you wait to unweak, reseting your timer.

Side note, Ulti where have you been I have been trying to get your attention all day! >:O

[Daemon]

People are having hard enough of a time finding a group of 18 PUG people to do NMs with...your solution to that is to suggest that they build groups of ....more than 18 people to kill NMs?


This is getting wierd.

No summarizing different points related to different things is what's getting wired.. That's going overboard. Just like you don't need 5 scholars to spam embrava if you see it from the point you are trying to make about what I'm discussing.
Using common sense you don't need 18 people for a variety of things that people today still don't know and follow the example of "What They Know Works"

(Exaggerting a point)
You don't need 5 BLM in VW to proc spells.

And for some of the lower level tier bosses you really don't need to have 3 bards, 3 corsair etc when those spaces in the alliance could be used to bring along friends who don't play what is highly demanded at some of these events.

Just like you don't need Delve weapons to Kill VW bosses

[Daemon]

That would be the combination of weakness timer and 20 minute time limit on the fight.

Raise is a waste of time

And it's points like these is why I made this Topic.

Do know by you saying this. You are telling all of mages who spend the time to either hunt for these scrolls, or saved up millions of gil to buy them, that we wasted our time to have these for players like you only for you to say that "Raise is a waste of time"

This shows what kind of mindset you have.

[Tamoa]

And it's points like these is why I made this Topic.

Do know by you saying this. You are telling all of mages who spend the time to either hunt for these scrolls, or saved up millions of gil to buy them, that we wasted our time to have these for players like you only for you to say that "Raise is a waste of time"

This shows what kind of mindset you have.

No it shows the players have found it overall more effective to homepoint and come back to continue fighting, instead of being useless for 5 minutes. It can actually mean the difference between a win and a timeout.

[Daemon]

There is literally no point in staying around unweak when you can home point to Adoulin and waypoint back out in half the time while having no chance at dying again while you wait to unweak, reseting your timer.

Side note, Ulti where have you been I have been trying to get your attention all day! >:O

Hey Justin, the point is people have spells, abilities unique to their classes intended to be used. Yet rather opening up and experimenting with other people and giving everyone an equal chance to put their job to use, we are strictly limiting outselves on the concept of "What we know works". In addition to How we can obtain MAX amount of rewards in the time limit rather than focus on "How we can help others obtain a fair share" and "What we can learn from each other and why we lost" using different jobs and seeing the outcomes of the strategies being used rather than follow a horrible basic strategy and setup in every single event. Are we robots?

I don't believe in the "Certain" jobs are Completly useless excuse that some people with narrowminds rather debate with the knowledge they assume they know defining "this is the only way it can be done" attitude.

Yes certain jobs have the ability to serve the best purposes for certain content, areas. But that doesn't mean the job SE implemented, adjusted and enforced these jobs are made to black and white. It's us who choose to Black and White and even history shows how humanity has been that way since the beginning of time.

Any job highly geared with max merits, stats, and high end gears, the skill ability of that person defines the player, not the item they don't have. And could participate to do many things yet look at the way we discriminate each other?

Just like those who assumed Red Mage has absolutely no use and yet now in Delve people are asking Red Mage for the highest level content. Now that they know we can make a difference.

If it was that drastically useless, then why bother implementing and waste your time even leveling the job in the first place?
And we all should know by now that SE makes adjustments I "ALL JOBS" in order to meet balance hence why SCH got embrava Nerf.

[Daemon]

No it shows the players have found it overall more effective to homepoint and come back to continue fighting, instead of being useless for 5 minutes. It can actually mean the difference between a win and a timeout.

So rather learning the correct way, it's best to skip strategy in general and "Do what we know best"?

And it's flaws like these that SE eventually will come around to fixing them. And then you've just wasted your time incorporating a shortcut strategy upon others that everyone will have to go back and change and re-learn how to do it the correct way.

I wonder how your party strategy is? With Summoners using perfect Defense using Alex before popping the NMs, would that not offer players a small time window to deal damage? What about having more than 1 SMN for this? Therefore no death and no reason to waste MP raising or time spent on running back in hopes you can get there before the time limit ends?

Oh and magic? Does not Rune have ability to give players in the entire party perfect magic defense for a small time window? Not to mention they can improve you elemental resistance against spells along with Barspells, Carols, Geomancer spells, Corr buffs, Blue magic buffs.

Add in scholar for TP regain, storms, Phalanx on all members, Stoneskin, with Bards giving Carols for Magic, marches for haste. Then there's Embrava and Regen V..

Did you know SCH could open up dark arts and give the entire party shock spikes which could possibly Stun enemies attacking for a short time? Giving you less pressure as a PLD tank because you just froze enemy a second or 2 that could matter in Boss fights with short time limits.

WHM could use Flash to blind and severely lower accuracy on enemy?
Arise to quickly shorten the weakness status? Spam cure for Stoneskin effect?

Blackmage not have dot spells to help with enfeebling?

Geomancer and redmage for enfeebles...which is why Bard and Cor can compliment these 2 jobs with buffs. Dia III to reduce defense, Chainspell raise it stun incase it's required?

Then there's Corsair buffs...

Does not Blue Magic have useful spells like Pyric Bulwark? Diffusion Animated wail to give everyone Haste in case mages who can only single caste is busy healing? Occultation that could possibly help a member receive less hits because if blink can why not this when you gain more shows than blink? Of course we also have summoner who can provide Hastega also. Fleetwind to help parties travel the map quicker with bards giving Mazurka.

What about Beastmaster having Killer Instinct? Or Theif with Feint? Steal enmity of tanker who is close to death and transfering hate onto another tanker with SATA?

DD can improve damage to better outcomes using skillchains rather than be a 1 man show trying to do Weaponskills solo. And have different options on strategy.

And if its an LS with senior members who don't need the win could they not contribute help by standing on the side to provide more assistance when a member has fallen? Be it Kick dead person out and invite fresh member buffed and ready to go?

The jobs are there. The abilities are there. But no one will ever learn this if people continue to play based on "What we know works" attitude. And focus only on statistics setting our standards based on greed for self gain and how much plasm we can earn and The amount of items we can get rather than put people first above material things. Therefore continue to discriminate others for being narrowminded in our actions and that's why I'm here pointing out not for me but for you and everyone else because this is how I see the community is suffering.

Yet we don't know how to make use of the other spells and abilities because we stick to what we know with the basics of giving party members Marches, mages ballads, and so on... Using the same job setup rather than go out and explore the possibilities with others. But because items and statistics on how you can get what you wanted fastest way possible based on the lack of being open minded and continue to discriminate others for not having the jobs you wanted this is considered to be the best we can do while others are out here who know this knowledge is silently accomplishing things beyond others.

So yeah let's keep demanding players only join if you have Delve Weapon for all events.

Then it's best to complain to the Dev team for making it too hard because we lack the effort of learning how to overcome their challenges they set for us.. Demanding and threatening to rage quit because we think it should be made easy to our standards rather than knowing how to learn from our failures and try harder and how there are other high level skilled groups out there who do know these things are able to win.

[SqEnisfilledwithgeniuses]

I wonder how your party strategy is? With Summoners using perfect Defense using Alex before popping the NMs, would that not offer players a small time window to deal damage? Therefore no death and no reason to waste MP raising or time spent on running back in hopes you can get there before the time limit ends?

Oh and magic? Does not Rune have ability to give players in the entire party perfect magic defense for a small time window?

Add in scholar for TP regain, storms, Phalanx on all members, Stoneskin, with Bards giving Etudes for Magic, marches for haste. Then there's Embrava and Regen V..

Geomancer and redmage for enfeebles...

Then there's Corsair buffs...

The jobs are there. The abilities. Are there. But no one will ever learn this if people continue to play based on "What we know works" attitude.

Smn for Perfect Defense 1/18
3x SCH to phalanx/regen everyone 4/18
Brds to refresh everyone 7/18
Whm to Heal everyone 10/18
Corsair to put rolls on everyone 13/18
3 Run to Magic Shield everyone 16/18
Paladin to tank 17/18

Go random single DD! You only have 20 minutes to solo zerg the NM down, but you've got plenty of buffs now!

The issue isn't job utility or a lack thereof. Outside and Inside the fracture, there are time limits on these NMs. There is a certain level of damage that must be maintained in order to win.

I'm going to take the non-delve sam or mnk over the Run with magic shield, or the smn with Alek.

The issue is TIME. Even with the perfect setup, there is still the chance of the NM using an ability to wipe its DT modifier, or it decides not to use Exuviation, or that last lamp refuses to break.

You ever shouted for 2 hours for a Tax'et clear? I shouted groups for all my NMs, before I had any delve equipment.
You know how terrible it is when you get the NM down to 25% on your first attempt and half the group LEAVES because you didn't win? Now you've got another 45min-2hrs to shout for replacements.

I'll take the "What we know works."

[Tamoa]

FFXI players will always find the most efficient way of doing things and stick to doing it that way. That's always been the case and will always be the case. It's actually human nature. Why change the setup or the strategy when you know your current one works?

If you're going with your linkshell, sure - mess around if you want, bring other non-optimal jobs. But the fact of the matter is that Delve (T1-5) is being done mostly by pickup groups. You aren't going to find a random whm with Arise that already has the KI for a specific nm that'll be willing to stand there outside the group only to jump in and raise people when needed. And leaders of pickup groups aren't going to pick sub-optimal jobs - they won't choose a pup instead of a heavy DD, why would they when they know a heavy DD will infact deal more damage and contribute to (hopefully) kill the nm within the time limit.

[Daemon]

FFXI players will always find the most efficient way of doing things and stick to doing it that way. That's always been the case and will always be the case. It's actually human nature. Why change the setup or the strategy when you know your current one works?

If you're going with your linkshell, sure - mess around if you want, bring other non-optimal jobs. But the fact of the matter is that Delve (T1-5) is being done mostly by pickup groups. You aren't going to find a random whm with Arise that already has the KI for a specific nm that'll be willing to stand there outside the group only to jump in and raise people when needed. And leaders of pickup groups aren't going to pick sub-optimal jobs - they won't choose a pup instead of a heavy DD, why would they when they know a heavy DD will infact deal more damage and contribute to (hopefully) kill the nm within the time limit.


And it's because of the attitudes we have now, many players are not able to advance and earn the things needed. Make friends and find people to do stuff together. And be prepared at events having all spells in their list such as Arise. And I don't know what your server is like but several WHM I've seen on mine already have it.

Change starts with you, and the entire community. Something that cannot happen over night. I just stated how i see why people are struggling because our actions are effecting others when we act narrowminded in our ways allowing self gain to define who we are through simple mindset mechanics such as "This how we know works"

And because we are so focused on statistics and items, we would rather continue to forget about the other players on the server because our needs come first above all things.

You may not realize it now or never, but I wonder how things will change once Delve dies out and all end game players are done getting their wants finished completely?

We already separated ourselves from players undergeared. And then instead of looking at our ways, we blame the devs, and the content itself without analyzing that we the people play a role in this too because we choose to set this standard and implement the way we farm in delve as our "new system" to reach highest amount of plasms and airelixers so we can upgrade our gears the fastest way possible even if that means forgetting everyone else in the process.

[Asymptotic]

What the heck is this thread? What point are you trying to make? Did you smoke some bad hash?

I don't know anymore man. I'm just going to go punch things with Oatixur while my Terpsichore and Kenkonken cry.

[Daemon]

Smn for Perfect Defense 1/18
3x SCH to phalanx/regen everyone 4/18
Brds to refresh everyone 7/18
Whm to Heal everyone 10/18
Corsair to put rolls on everyone 13/18
3 Run to Magic Shield everyone 16/18
Paladin to tank 17/18

Go random single DD! You only have 20 minutes to solo zerg the NM down, but you've got plenty of buffs now!

The issue isn't job utility or a lack thereof. Outside and Inside the fracture, there are time limits on these NMs. There is a certain level of damage that must be maintained in order to win.

I'm going to take the non-delve sam or mnk over the Run with magic shield, or the smn with Alek.

The issue is TIME. Even with the perfect setup, there is still the chance of the NM using an ability to wipe its DT modifier, or it decides not to use Exuviation, or that last lamp refuses to break.

You ever shouted for 2 hours for a Tax'et clear? I shouted groups for all my NMs, before I had any delve equipment.
You know how terrible it is when you get the NM down to 25% on your first attempt and half the group LEAVES because you didn't win? Now you've got another 45min-2hrs to shout for replacements.

I'll take the "What we know works."

To me that's an excuse based on laziness and improper training, lack of practice because for us small groups we use the strategy of switching out members and buffing that its hard when you also have no organization skills and proper communication between your alliance members and team.

The majority of buffs make a huge difference before you even start the fight that many people "still dont get" and can't even do if the jobs are not even there. Wasting valuable space in the alliance on adding extra jobs not necessary while choosing Valor Minuet, March and Minnes through the rotation of 3 bards to benefit 6 song buffs instead thinking this is more valuable than buffs like Perfect Defense, All For One, and other things I've listed before could make a better difference.

And then they expect to win battle after these buffs wore off not even organized to continue switching out members to rebuff the team.

You only need 1 scholar to buff entire alliance, 2 if you want to use Embrava twice.
And you are looking at it as 3 Alliances all together. Main party is DD party which has highest priority on buffs VS other teams.

This eliminates the cause for requiring so many jobs that's really not needed.

You are debating with someone who does this all the time at JP events. So I know it works. Even since the early years we did the same thing back in HNMLS groups.

[Tamoa]

The vast majority of people will always choose the path of less resistance - in game and in real life. That's how it is, that's how this game's been for the 11 years it's existed, and the sad truth is that nothing you say on this forum is going to change that. It makes no sense to purposely make things harder to accomplish with a higher chance to fail, even. Especially when you're dealing with people you don't know.

[Sapphires]

best garbage thread in a long time lol

[Spectreman]

This doesn't change a thing about the main reason New players can't get into delve. Veterans are askin Delve weapons as a requirement to experience Delve.

If the playerbase became rotten to this point, its up to SE to make adjustments to the system to make normal pugs without delve weapons to be able to farm efficiently in there (so the difference between farming with or without delve weapons is minimal) or force a system into those elitists so they have to accept non delve players into their group to be able to keep receiving rewards.


All this bla bla bla doesn't address this problem. This is THE problem right now. You can spend years collecting all that trash you mentioned because in the end your DD wont be accepted to ever experience Delve content unless someone magically put a Delve weapon into their account.

[Asymptotic]

No, Veterans stopped Plasm farming completely and are farming Delve bosses with their linkshells (or are doing 5/5 NM runs, both of which actually do require delve weapons to complete reliably). The people you see shouting for plasm farms this point are not the "veterans," they're FFXI's equivalent of middle class white Republicans.

[Daemon]

The vast majority of people will always choose the path of less resistance - in game and in real life. That's how it is, that's how this game's been for the 11 years it's existed, and the sad truth is that nothing you say on this forum is going to change that. It makes no sense to purposely make things harder to accomplish with a higher chance to fail, even.

Your are showing the example of giving in to defeat.

Rather than be open minded and trying out different strategies with other people and not everyone on the server thinks like you. People with different mindsets do exist. Otherwise we should just follow the first person who decides to jump off a bridge because the vast majority thinks its the path of least resistance while some us out there are smart enough to do the things we know is better.

I see it from my point of view is that the vast majority you are referring to watched others set a poor example and learned to go with flow because after all that's how life is right? Setting examples for others to follow? And when you don't know anything you have to see how others are doing it so you can learn too? But then those who join your VW party also not knowing what to do only joins in and follows the vast majority because its their first time and leaders before us are the ones who set the standard for everybody?

Its not for me to change people really because that's all you 100%. But I have the right to share my opinion and if you don't agree with it, you don't have to give me advice such as "nothing you say or do on the forums is going to change that" because then you are speaking on everyone as if what you say is how it will be regardless.

And that I have no right to share my opinions and promote positivity to others by pointing out what I see is changing for the worse.

[Daemon]

No, Veterans stopped Plasm farming completely and are killing Delve bosses with their linkshells.

Sorry misread, I agree.

[Asymptotic]

I was responding to the post above me, genius!


This doesn't change a thing about the main reason New players can't get into delve. Veterans are askin Delve weapons as a requirement to experience Delve.

[raps1355]

Cry to the cry cry, cry cry. :)

[Daemon]

This doesn't change a thing about the main reason New players can't get into delve. Veterans are askin Delve weapons as a requirement to experience Delve.

If the playerbase became rotten to this point, its up to SE to make adjustments to the system to make normal pugs without delve weapons to be able to farm efficiently in there (so the difference between farming with or without delve weapons is minimal) or force a system into those elitists so they have to accept non delve players into their group to be able to keep receiving rewards.


All this bla bla bla doesn't address this problem. This is THE problem right now. You can spend years collecting all that trash you mentioned because in the end your DD wont be accepted to ever experience Delve content unless someone magically put a Delve weapon into their account.


I agree, but to those who are jumping into this topic without reading what we are discussing.

Closely pay attention. Asking you to have a delve weapon for Delve bosses I get.

Asking for Delve weapons only for old content is another.

Saying a specific REM weapon is useless I Get. Saying REM as if every single one is completely useless is another.

And I've seen so many people give up because of others spreading misguided information.

[Daemon]

Cry to the cry cry, cry cry. :)

Here's a tissue.

[SqEnisfilledwithgeniuses]

To me that's an excuse based on laziness and improper training, lack of practice because for us small groups we use the strategy of switching out members and buffing that its hard when you also have no organization skills and proper communication between your alliance members and team.

The majority of buffs make a huge difference before you even start the fight that many people "still dont get" and can't even do if the jobs are not even there. Wasting valuable space in the alliance on adding extra jobs not necessary while choosing Valor Minuet, March and Minnes through the rotation of 3 bards to benefit 6 song buffs instead thinking this is more valuable than buffs like Perfect Defense, All For One, and other things I've listed before could make a better difference.

And then they expect to win battle after these buffs wore off not even organized to continue switching out members to rebuff the team.

You only need 1 scholar to buff entire alliance, 2 if you want to use Embrava twice.
And you are looking at it as 3 Alliances all together. Main party is DD party which has highest priority on buffs VS other teams.

This eliminates the cause for requiring so many jobs that's really not needed.

You are debating with someone who does this all the time at JP events. So I know it works. Even since the early years we did the same thing back in HNMLS groups.

I do events with JP as well. I'm also not debating anything. You're crying because people are pointing out flaws in your posts, and I'm trolling because tears sustain me.

Pretty simple. I'm neither lazy nor incompetent. I shouted clears for all my NMs. I also logged in the other night and got a whole group of people Tax'et clear.

Anyways, I have things to do, so I'll troll you later. Work up some more tears for my lunch please.

[Asymptotic]

OK, 17-18/20 Mythics are useless depending on how you want to deal with Ryunohige vs. Upikirex. All Empyreans that are not harp or shield are useless. All relics that are not horn, shield, or gun are useless and gun is sort of pushing it because there's not really any extreme motivation to bring RNG to anything.

When people say RME are worthless now, this is what they mean. When people talk about RME, they're specifically talking about DD weapons. Not Yagrush. Not Harp. Why are you blaming other people for your own inability to understand things?

[Tamoa]

If everyone on the server don't think like me, how come all I see are shouts for geos, 3/4 song brds, cors, Delve weapon DDs, whms with Arise and A/O plds?

Every time a new event has been introduced into this game, people have tried out different strategies, figured out which one works the best and shared that information - and others have followed that strategy. It's all about efficiency and success rate. And when you are dealing with people you don't know, meaning you don't know their skill, their ability to follow instructions, their ability to focus etc etc - all you have to go by is their gear. And then - unless you're some sort of masochist - you stick to the jobs and the gear which will (in theory) maximize your chances of success. If you are making the effort of putting together a shout group - for anything - it makes perfect sense that you want the group to succeed and will do what you can to make sure that happens.

[Daemon]

I do events with JP as well. I'm also not debating anything. You're crying because people are pointing out flaws in your posts, and I'm trolling because tears sustain me.

Pretty simple. I'm neither lazy nor incompetent. I shouted clears for all my NMs. I also logged in the other night and got a whole group of people Tax'et clear.

Anyways, I have things to do, so I'll troll you later. Work up some more tears for my lunch please.

Yeah then this doesn't apply to you and you are trolling to point me out for what reason?

[Daemon]

OK, 17-18/20 Mythics are useless depending on how you want to deal with Ryunohige vs. Upikirex. All Empyreans that are not harp or shield are useless. All relics that are not horn, shield, or gun are useless and gun is sort of pushing it because there's not really any extreme motivation to bring RNG to anything.

When people say RME are worthless now, this is what they mean. When people talk about RME, they're specifically talking about DD weapons. Not Yagrush. Not Harp. Why are you blaming other people for your own inability to understand things?

Ok I wont argue if thats your opinion but confidently stating it as a fact as if every single REM is worthless and telling others not to consider making one is why this conversation started. That's why I said this is misleading people especially when SE announced that they will add upgrades for REM in the near future.

Telling new players to not even consider working on one because its worthless and then when REM updates happen, all those people who were told that its pointless to even make one will be left out because of following such advice from others.

[Asymptotic]

I'm confidently stating it as fact as of the current stats, yes. Because my statement was accurate.

Okay.
So. How can I explain this.

You have 300 million gil.

You can like, spend it on something that might perhaps maybe be good someday*. Or ...
You can keep it, and get things that are better than the 300m option for free by half-AFKing for a few days in miserable plasm farms.

Yeah I don't know, that's a really hard decision.


*DATE INDETERMINATE

[Daemon]

Empyreans that are not harp or shield are useless.

Continue to mislead people. Myrkr is useless? This is why I made this post to begin with >.>

[Asymptotic]

Yes, pretty much. And since people want to use "future upgrades" as an argument, that WS is getting unlocked anyway - on the WoE version I can buy without leaving town once I've camped the NMs.

[Daemon]

Yes, pretty much. And since people want to use "future upgrades" as an argument, that WS is getting unlocked anyway - on the WoE version I can buy without leaving town once I've camped the NMs.

Big difference than people telling others not to even consider making one. And the stats of the EMP version is different than WoE path.

[Tamoa]

...what?

Yes Myrkr is useless, and yes I do have Hvergelmir. I made one because I think it looks pretty.

[Asymptotic]

The real question is why do you have TP on BLM, SMN, or SCH to even care about what WS you have access to?

SCH's Mythic might as well be Apamajas II.

[Mahoro]

If everyone on the server don't think like me, how come all I see are shouts for geos, 3/4 song brds, cors, Delve weapon DDs, whms with Arise and A/O plds?

Every time a new event has been introduced into this game, people have tried out different strategies, figured out which one works the best and shared that information - and others have followed that strategy. It's all about efficiency and success rate. And when you are dealing with people you don't know, meaning you don't know their skill, their ability to follow instructions, their ability to focus etc etc - all you have to go by is their gear. And then - unless you're some sort of masochist - you stick to the jobs and the gear which will (in theory) maximize your chances of success. If you are making the effort of putting together a shout group - for anything - it makes perfect sense that you want the group to succeed and will do what you can to make sure that happens.

I think what people are not realizing is that normal plasm farms are slowly dying out anyway as people realize that it's more efficient and easier to buy Airlixirs off the AH. +1s and +2s are tanking in price. You can buy a stack of +1s for about 1.5M gil now. Accruing those in plasm farms would normally take 5 or 6 Plasm runs at 45 minutes each. What would you rather do: deal with 4 hours of PUGs or farm some gil on your own and buy it?

Frankly, one good side effect to larger LS's spamming bosses is that they are effectively tanking the price of Airlixirs everywhere as they trade in their excess Plasm and throw Airilxirs on the AH. I see a lot of complaining about the "haves versus the have-nots" but they forget that the "haves" are trickling down benefits to the "have-nots." Plasm is being devalued.

Thus, if normal Delve plasm farms die out, and all that is left are groups doing NM / Boss runs, Daemon's tips ARE valid. And even if you take issue with one or two pieces of information here and there, I think his attitude is refreshing and helpful. If it does anything, it will show people what they need to do to be Delve Boss-ready. Because yes, you DO need gear from prior events, even the so-called "obsolete" events, to be Delve Boss-ready.

[Daemon]

The real question is why do you have TP on BLM, SMN, or SCH to even care about what WS you have access to?

SCH's Mythic might as well be Apamajas II.


...what?

Yes Myrkr is useless, and yes I do have Hvergelmir. I made one because I think it looks pretty.

Are you both serious??? What kind of question is this at level 99 especially for someone who has it??

[Tamoa]

I don't know about you but I tend to gear swap a lot on my mage jobs. That includes the weapon slot.

[Sparthos]

The bottom line is SE created new content that 90% of players will never clear because its designed to be difficult enough to gearcheck anyone not using optimal sets. Interestingly enough, this was said upfront by Matsui in his blogs out to the public and he suggested if you wanted to be prepared for this new content you should have completed things like NNI, Salvage II, Limbus II, Meebles etc etc.

Now you could well rebut his statement with "It's fucking impossible to get people for these things through /sh" and probably have a well constructed argument considering that most people either have no interest in these things or have completed them already. If you don't believe me, try shouting and see how long it takes to get two people to do a simple Silver Sea II run or the 6+ people you'd want for Limbus II. We're just coming off Double Plans in Salvage II and demand for the gear was about as high as the lowliest tunnel worm.

What Matsui envisioned was a gear ladder where people would return to Abyssea / Voidwatch to gear up for Delve but in reality what results is everyone trying to hammer the newest content with whatever they have. You can just smell the Abyssea-burned jobs coming into some Delve plasm runs and where you could get away with that crap back in Voidwatch where you could be propped up by drinks or even stuff like Salvage II / Limbus II where monsters aren't difficult moreso a challenge of navigating the content. Even Meebles isn't hard sans the few bosses that need some stuns.

In Delve you're gonna have a bad time if you aren't skilled up or eating food to optimize stats. Don't even get me started on what happens when you have bad healers like people who mash Cure V/VI until their MP runs dry or DD who think riding every DEF- JA in the book is going to work when the healer can barely keep up. Throw in some subpar Bards and a lack of enthusiastic pulls and you have a recipe for a wiped party and sub-5k plasm runs.

As for the "broaden your horizons!" mentality, thats well and good but don't start throwing around that bosses can be beaten with suboptimal jobs unless you're going to put skin in the game and prove everyone wrong. Rather than delegating people to think outside the box, lead by example and show people that BST, PUP, SMN, RUN, DNC can excel at downing Delve bosses like Tojil or Dakuwaqa. Lots of people would thank you.

However, until that day comes people will gravitate towards what works, the devs are on the record stating that these mobs were not meant to be engaged by all job combinations, runs already require ridiculous combinations of 4 song Bards and expensive relics/delve boss gear coupled with precision partyswapping and good support behind hyperbuffed DD. You can also choose to use the easier RNG combinations but that requires 99 Guns/Bows and your milage may vary.

Current XI:
<--You can clear Delve.

Void

<- You can Plasm farm well but can't clear Delve.

Void

<- Players who couldn't beat Delve even if the monsters didn't attack.

See those voids? That's the problem with XI right now and the devs have stated they know its a problem and are working on it. Till they fix it however, the game has very little appeal to all but a handful of people who can progress somewhere.

[Asymptotic]

No, seriously.

BLM first of all is barely used except for the occasional manaburn skirmish, where you will be running around and nuking things in Cirdas [U] that die pretty quickly. Nothing will be alive long enough to engage, you will never have TP unless you're using Icarus Wings and those give medicated status.

SMN is garbage, sorry. When SE removed the need for Perfect Defense from FFXI they effectively wiped the job off the face of the earth, and regardless, SMN isn't meleeing anything worth discussing. Sorry, being useful against trash mobs doesn't make something useful overall, sincerely, my Mjollnir.

SCH is used for three things as far as relevant content goes: stun gunning, being an extremely low maintenance two-box, and being an effective low-attention healer via regen for weak content. In none of these circumstances is Myrkr ever going to come into play.

So Myrkr is useful?

[Daemon]

I think what people are not realizing is that normal plasm farms are slowly dying out anyway as people realize that it's more efficient and easier to buy Airlixirs off the AH. +1s and +2s are tanking in price. You can buy a stack of +1s for about 1.5M gil now. Accruing those in plasm farms would normally take 5 or 6 Plasm runs at 45 minutes each. What would you rather do: deal with 4 hours of PUGs or farm some gil on your own and buy it?

Frankly, one good side effect to larger LS's spamming bosses is that they are effectively tanking the price of Airlixirs everywhere as they trade in their excess Plasm and throw Airilxirs on the AH. I see a lot of complaining about the "haves versus the have-nots" but they forget that the "haves" are trickling down benefits to the "have-nots." Plasm is being devalued.

Thus, if normal Delve plasm farms die out, and all that is left are groups doing NM / Boss runs, Daemon's tips ARE valid. And even if you take issue with one or two pieces of information here and there, I think his attitude is refreshing and helpful. If it does anything, it will show people what they need to do to be Delve Boss-ready. Because yes, you DO need gear from prior events, even the so-called "obsolete" events, to be Delve Boss-ready.

Thank you for actually reading and not skimming though. You get what I'm saying.

[Zhronne]

Wow... this is actually escalating into something interesting now :D

[Asymptotic]

As for the "broaden your horizons!" mentality, thats well and good but don't start throwing around that bosses can be beaten with suboptimal jobs unless you're going to put skin in the game and prove everyone wrong. Rather than delegating people to think outside the box, lead by example and show people that BST, PUP, SMN, RUN, DNC can excel at downing Delve bosses like Tojil or Dakuwaqa. Lots of people would thank you.
.

RUN is already used frequently for Dakuwaqa. JPs will shout specifically for it. I'll probably drag PUP to Tojil next week, but it's hard to justify given the first 25%.

[Alpheus]

I think what people are not realizing is that normal plasm farms are slowly dying out anyway as people realize that it's more efficient and easier to buy Airlixirs off the AH. +1s and +2s are tanking in price. You can buy a stack of +1s for about 1.5M gil now. Accruing those in plasm farms would normally take 5 or 6 Plasm runs at 45 minutes each. What would you rather do: deal with 4 hours of PUGs or farm some gil on your own and buy it?

Frankly, one good side effect to larger LS's spamming bosses is that they are effectively tanking the price of Airlixirs everywhere as they trade in their excess Plasm and throw Airilxirs on the AH. I see a lot of complaining about the "haves versus the have-nots" but they forget that the "haves" are trickling down benefits to the "have-nots." Plasm is being devalued.

Thus, if normal Delve plasm farms die out, and all that is left are groups doing NM / Boss runs, Daemon's tips ARE valid. And even if you take issue with one or two pieces of information here and there, I think his attitude is refreshing and helpful. If it does anything, it will show people what they need to do to be Delve Boss-ready. Because yes, you DO need gear from prior events, even the so-called "obsolete" events, to be Delve Boss-ready.

Funnily enough the argument could be made those end game LSes/statics/groups/whatever are also tanking the last thing your average joe player could muster to make gil ala Dynamis currency pre-Adoulin. Yay?

[Zhronne]

The bottom line is SE created new content that 90% of players will never clear
Never say never. They already said multiple times that as new content (new delve bosses) are released, they're gonna nerf current content.

When is this going to happen? Not before september.
Will the nerf even be consistent and noticeable? We'll find out I guess, well, those of us who won't bandwagon jump over to FFXIV leaving XI as a desolate land of rolling tumbleweed foreveraloness.

[Mahoro]

Stuff

I'm in utter agreement with Sparthos's statements. He hit on the current state of the game, for better or for worse. This is why I think Daemon's comments are helpful. He is actually trying to show people what they need to do UNTIL the devs themselves create more content in that "gap." But I agree there are issues with the xpac and hopefully the new events Matsui is adding between the content levels in July/August will help out.

[Sparthos]

RUN is already used frequently for Dakuwaqa. JPs will shout specifically for it. I'll probably drag PUP to Tojil next week, but it's hard to justify given the first 25%.

What does RUN bring to Dakuwaqa if I may ask? Enspells to break the aquahorn?

Also, you've got Oxys, thats cheating for PUP! :P

[Asymptotic]

Well, Shark is extremely squishy so the trick is really staying alive. People are using RUN and MNK/RUN to drop Aura, fulltime Vallation etc. Also, RUN has an A in Sword, access to good 1H equipment, and the ability to use Requiescat, which is a huge asset in Foret de Hennetiel.

[Mahoro]

Funnily enough the argument could be made those end game LSes/statics/groups/whatever are also tanking the last thing your average joe player could muster to make gil ala Dynamis currency pre-Adoulin. Yay?

No, ALL Delve does that, not just the Fracture Bosses. Your average joe player is slowly getting KIs and ending up with the Delve weapons which he will R.15. Your average joe player is JUST as complicit in tanking Dynamis currency. It isn't solely the province of what the end game LS's are doing with the bosses. Yay ;;

[Daemon]

No, seriously.

BLM first of all is barely used except for the occasional manaburn skirmish, where you will be running around and nuking things in Cirdas [U] that die pretty quickly. Nothing will be alive long enough to engage, you will never have TP unless you're using Icarus Wings and those give medicated status.

SMN is garbage, sorry. When SE removed the need for Perfect Defense from FFXI they effectively wiped the job off the face of the earth, and regardless, SMN isn't meleeing anything worth discussing. Sorry, being useful against trash mobs doesn't make something useful overall, sincerely, my Mjollnir.

SCH is used for three things as far as relevant content goes: stun gunning, being an extremely low maintenance two-box, and being an effective low-attention healer via regen for weak content. In none of these circumstances is Myrkr ever going to come into play.

So Myrkr is useful?

All 3 jobs have the ability to use Ikarus wing to gain TP in case an emergency happens where Myrkr is needed "at the moment".

Scholar CAN keep up TP regain the entire time with Perpetuance + Adloquium. (And why wouldn't you if that helps the DD's TP faster?) That includes BLM in party "Could" get this too depending what role they play and what gear they use however since BLM won't be keeping this equipped playing the "Nuker" roll based on switching over to staffs such as Magian Trial or MAB soothsayer staff then yes the Ikarus wing would still be option of choice.

Maybe "YOU" never partied with a good Summoner but the ones I've partied with always gave us "Fleetwind" to save us time roaming around huge maps, Dyna Xarc, Dyna Bubu, ect. Alexander used in every event where it was required unless if it was something we could handle without. And depending on what you are doing, Ecliptic Growl or Howl is used for stat buffs.

In certain events such as WoE & Besieged where Temp items such as Dusty Wing that gives 300% TP.

Myrkr can give you over 1K MP back.

And you are saying this is worthless.

Btw when I Scholar, Bards don't even have to worry about keeping Ballads up or even cast it on me allowing them to have less work and more focus on DD in big events.
When Max merits on Sublimation and Convert can do a decent job, Myrkr is what keeps SCH independent on MP.

Poor advice given to players who ask for help follow your example and wonder why they got refused joining big events when they did the best they could to listen and do what you advised them to do.

[Alpheus]

No, ALL Delve does that, not just the Fracture Bosses. Your average joe player is slowly getting KIs and ending up with the Delve weapons which he will R.15. Your average joe player is JUST as complicit in tanking Dynamis currency. It isn't solely the province of what the end game LS's are doing with the bosses. Yay ;;

Hmm I can see your point. I was however just looking at it from the standpoint of, if you have those wins under your belt outside of polishing off some R15s on key pieces what need is their for plasm for groups who can get wins regularly? I ponder it because there's gonna come a point where the group will be swimming in the bosses drops which would make anyone look at their plasm and say "F@#k it turn it into gil" Having thought about it some more to type out the above though I can see how the groups who are capable of getting the wins aren't at the point where they are swimming in YOLO helms or Oatixurs. So again I do see your point. As for average joe being just as complicit I made the mistake of lumping that implication with the mere mention of how dyna currency worked (as in there were always people undercutting and such) .

[Sparthos]

Well, Shark is extremely squishy so the trick is really staying alive. People are using RUN and MNK/RUN to drop Aura, fulltime Vallation etc. Also, RUN has an A in Sword, access to good 1H equipment, and the ability to use Requiescat, which is a huge asset in Foret de Hennetiel.

Interesting. I had heard about /RUNing but if bringing a main RUN to help ignore the damage resistances of Craklaw, Krabimanjaro and lessen elemental damage works then that is one less job in the "never bring" pile. I guess if PUP could manage to land Armor Shatterer on a target it'd be an asset on a boss if you can manage to keep the automaton alive to keep DEF- on the target. Opening with Ventrilo at the least gets you one attempt.

It's also funny how what server you're on affects your ability to get things done. For instance, the ability to get a 4 song harp right now on Lakshmi is severely curtailed by the inability to secure the plates required to finish the trial and the cinder may as well not exist. This is all assuming unlimited gil of course since 1 cinder is approaching 3m and plates have floated back to pre-Voidwatch adjustment prices.

If you bet that SE would make these items easier to get in the Adoulin era, you've got some crow to eat.

[Kojo]

Sorry, but I stopped reading the OP when you used Yagrush as an example for your R/M/E statement and left it at that. So, as you pointed out in a later post, we need to be more specific, so tell me how Apocalypse and Ragnarok are still relevant in current events in SoA, you'll probably say something about Apoc's Haste and Drain via Catastrophe, so let's focus on Ragnarok.

Just to point out before you start, Scourge has an aftermath augmenting critical hits, but due to the potency of this aftermath, and the low damage of Scourge, it isn't worth using Scourge for that aftermath. Now, you may proceed, Governor.

[Daemon]

Sorry, but I stopped reading the OP when you used Yagrush as an example for your R/M/E statement and left it at that. So, as you pointed out in a later post, we need to be more specific, so tell me how Apocalypse and Ragnarok are still relevant in current events in SoA, you'll probably say something about Apoc's Haste and Drain via Catastrophe, so let's focus on Ragnarok.

Just to point out before you start, Scourge has an aftermath augmenting critical hits, but due to the potency of this aftermath, and the low damage of Scourge, it isn't worth using Scourge for that aftermath. Now, you may proceed, Governor.

It doesn't matter what example I used. It's the fact that people are misleading others to believe that REM is absolutely useless therefore encouraging others not to dedicate time into getting these or other equipment out there in other contents when they are still relevant and needed.

Maybe Top level players who have the ability to obtain Delve weapons and Delve gear find it useless. But telling players who don't already have the best not to get the gear "They have already" is misleading and misguiding to those who don't.

You cannot expect every player to be on the same level as you.

[Tamoa]

All 3 jobs have the ability to use Ikarus wing to gain TP in case an emergency happens where Myrkr is needed "at the moment".

Scholar CAN keep up TP regain the entire time with Perpetuance + Adloquium. (And why wouldn't you if that helps the DD's TP faster?) That includes BLM in party "Could" get this too depending what role they play and what gear they use however since BLM won't be keeping this equipped playing the "Nuker" roll based on switching over to staffs such as Magian Trial or MAB soothsayer staff then yes the Ikarus wing would still be option of choice.

Maybe "YOU" never partied with a good Summoner but the ones I've partied with always gave us "Fleetwind" to save us time roaming around huge maps, Dyna Xarc, Dyna Bubu, ect. Alexander used in every event where it was required unless if it was something we could handle without. And depending on what you are doing, Ecliptic Growl or Howl is used stats stat buffs.

In certain events such as WoE & Besieged where Temp items such as Dusty Wing that gives 300%.

Myrkr can give you over 1K MP back.

And you are saying this is worthless.

Btw when I Scholar, Bards don't even have to worry about keeping Ballads up or even cast it on me allowing them to have less work and more focus on DD in big events.
When Max merits on Sublimation and Convert can do a decent job, Myrkr is what keeps SCH independent fully.


Do you fulltime Hvergelmir on sch? Do you cure with it? Stun with it? Cast debuffs with it?

Any mage worth their salt gear swaps, including the weapon slot. Saying Myrkr is useful because you can use an icarus wing every 120 minutes to get mp back is one hell of a weak argument for making Hvergelmir.

[Sparthos]

Where are the situations where a mage doesn't have access to a source of refresh via BRD, GEO, COR etc.

At easy events your MP won't be so taxed meaning you can simply sustain off gear/Sublimation/Convert and in party scenarios you should have at least one outside source of Refresh. Hvergelmir is overall pretty useless and this argument is still as weak as when Alhanelem created that 400 post monstrosity that the mods banished to the Shadow Realm.

Icarus Wings? Seriously, that is a oneshot deal and idling in the same staff for the sake of MP efficiency when you could be swapping in other staves/clubs to maximize each cure/nuke/buff/debuff is counterproductive.

[Shirai]

Do you fulltime Hvergelmir on sch? Do you cure with it? Stun with it? Cast debuffs with it?

Any mage worth their salt gear swaps, including the weapon slot. Saying Myrkr is useful because you can use an icarus wing every 120 minutes to get mp back is one hell of a weak argument for making Hvergelmir.

And all I am thinking is Vile Elixers and their +1s in the cases where I really run out of MP and other recovery options like Sublimation or convert depending on which sub I am on.
And that only seems to happen on real intense situations where my bard is down and has no means to get up safely.

[Daemon]

Do you fulltime Hvergelmir on sch? Do you cure with it? Stun with it? Cast debuffs with it?

Any mage worth their salt gear swaps, including the weapon slot. Saying Myrkr is useful because you can use an icarus wing every 120 minutes to get mp back is one hell of a weak argument for making Hvergelmir.

I do indeed.

Because Regen V, Phalanx and Cure 4 does more than enough to help me keep DDs alive and sometimes tossing a Stonskin can give you a couple of seconds to recover MP with your options of Sublimation and Convert. While Hekas set helps me on 15% Cure Potency. You don't need to over gear SCH on Cure Potency. 50% potency is nice but not needed since SCH can maintain MP much better than WHM and doesn't use expensive spells quickly compared to Cure V & VI.

And in the case of an emergency Embrava can give even higher Regen stacked with Regen V..

Oh did I say how great Myrkr is?

And yes you need to be wearing SCH AF3 Headpiece when casting Regen V.

And my argument is weak... Anymore insults?

[Shirai]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/34384128.jpg

[Tamoa]

Do you fulltime Hvergelmir on sch? Do you cure with it? Stun with it? Cast debuffs with it?


I do indeed.


I rest my case.

[Daemon]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/34384128.jpg

Haha <3 And this is why I said Abbysea totally ruined players opportunity to take the time to "learn" their jobs to the fullest...

[Sparthos]

Learning a job is fulltiming a staff with no relevant mage stats (woo MP!) and a weaponskill that restores MP when half the time you could suffice by riding JAs and utilizing easily acquired refresh pieces to idle in?

[Daemon]

Learning a job is fulltiming a staff with no relevant mage stats (woo MP!) and a weaponskill that restores MP when half the time you could suffice by riding JAs and utilizing easily acquired refresh pieces to idle in?

Oh really now? That's the best knowledge you have to share with us? Seriously if you think mage class is easy to play I question what your skills are as a DD?

[Mahoro]

Ehhh, although I like what you are trying to do with these posts Daemon, even I've got to admit that full-timing Hvergelmir might lead to certain disadvantages just for the sake of MP. When I am on Stun duties on SCH/BLM, I've got to switch into Apamajas. I switch into my Arka IV for Cures. Terra's helps in certain situations. Kirin's Pole for Embravas, Chatoyant's if I need to help debuff delve NMs, etc. Couldn't imagine not making these basic swaps.

[Daemon]

Ehhh, although I like what you are trying to do with these posts Daemon, even I've got to admit that full-timing Hvergelmir might lead to certain disadvantages just for the sake of MP. When I am on Stun duties on SCH/BLM, I've got to switch into Apamajas. I switch into my Arka IV for Cures. Terra's helps in certain situations. Kirin's Pole for Embravas, etc. Couldn't imagine not making these basic swaps.

Ok Stun duties is different. But you still have Vile Elixers and Ikarus Wing for emergencies "At the moment" to quickly switch over, use wing and gain enough TP to use Myrkr once since TP wing has med limit. Also I believe Corsair could give you regain. Not to forget Corsair could Wildcard you with the possibility to reset your abilities.

But even so if you are playing something that allows you to Aspir, use that to your advantage too.
WHM also can give you MP with the use of Devotion.

Also as I said before. You don't need to have 50% Cure Potency if you can keep Regen V up and Perperpetuance can be use to your advantage. Also using AF3 Headpiece gives high Regen. Phalanx is what reduces damage maybe not by a lot to some depending on how much Pdt gear a job is wearing differences can vary. But atleast this helps you from wasting so much MP curing.

The issue is when learning to play any job, you have to take a closer look at details such as instant time VS over the course of time. And balance out your skills. As SE says, Scholar is a tactician.

Gear plays an important role as I said before. You have enhance Stonkskin effect gear that's very helpful.

Because I have many gear sets and items specific to certain spell enhancements. This allows me to full time Hvelgamir.

As for stun, you don't need to over gear depending what you are expected to do because even with alacrity alone you can recast within 10-15 seconds compared to RDM with full Fastcast set recast around 30-35 seconds. And if you are trying to instant cast stun the Redmage with AF2 Relic Body fully upgraded adding +20 Seconds on to CS is better suited for that role and SCH better used for Storms, Regain, Phalanx, Regen V, Shock Spikes and Enspells and of course Embrava.

EDIT:

I just wanted to thank you Mahoro for being nice. And because i was caught up in replying to several other post i did not give you a proper answer and reason why I equipped Hvelgamir full time other than when needing to swap for other reasons when needed. Yes I do swap staves for Embrava. I just dont use any other staves because with Adoulin gear + Bokwus robe, Refraction cape and some accuracy + enfeebling gears along with AF pieces all of my spells land without issue and the only 2 spells I use mainly for mobs is Dia and Sleep. Even gravity lands btw, so therefore I never use Cha staff. I mean Soothsayer staff has high INT with MND on it so this is the point I was saying earlier that I dont need other staffs.

When I answered and said Full time, I didnt mean it as "I never swap out staff."
I meant it as I have to in order to regain TP for Hvelgamir. Which is where I made a mistake in the debate going on.

Also I rarely use Hvelgamir in party, Maybe up to 2 times depending on the situation as I said before Sublimation does a great job. However I never depend on bards and cor for refresh. I usually tell them not to worry about it because since Im always standing near the mobs for Accession, its pointless to ballad me and then use marches when Im close by as that adds extra work on them.

So to save them the issue of recasting, I just tell them not to focus on me.

Hope that clears some things up and thanks again for being awesome, wish I could interact with more people like you.

[Sparthos]

Oh really now? That's the best knowledge you have to share with us? Seriously if you think mage class is easy to play I question what your skills are as a DD?

You're making a dig at Abyssea when clearly you've as much to learn as the rest of us.

I freely admit im not the best SCH but I know well enough that fulltiming Hvergelmir is a horrible decision akin to wanting to melee BLM to utilize the aftermath of the Mythic staff. It sounds good on paper just like taking certain jobs to specific events sounds good until you're knee deep in the event and realize just how ineffective things become.

The benefits of +1 refresh using something as simple as an Owleyes in combination with Genbu's Shield for idling and swapping into Magians/Tefnut/Soothsayers trumps any benefit being able to fill your MP bar will ever provide. Your heals will be better, your nukes more effective, debuffs will stick more frequently and this in your main slot, arguably the most powerful slot for any job.

Again, provide an event where padding MP is so crucial and with some combination of gear and proper JA usage you can do better than using Hvergelmir. Delve EXP? Use Regen, Sublimation, Penury Cures and most of the time you should be able to maintain a safe buffer MP-wise and that is before you factor in the songs/rolls you should be receiving from someone.

Owleyes/xx/xx/xx
Nefer/xx/xx/xx
Heka's/Serp/xx/xx
xx/xx/Nares/Serp

Easy refresh/idle build. Orveil, Bokwus or Nefer gear are all easily acquired bodypieces and I tossed in the Nefer Khat since its easier to obtain than a Refresh hairpin for most. The Serpentes pieces are easily acquired, Sublimation gear can be idled in when you aren't doing anything for even more Refresh. Access to Convert and Refresh from /RDM give you further MP saving options on top of the ones native to Scholar. The hardest piece in that build to get is Nares and you can replace that with Subligar from Abyssea.

[Tamoa]

Honestly, I don't think I'd recommend any newer player to take the advice from someone who advocates fulltiming a staff on a mage job and says 50% cure potency isn't necessary.

[Umichi]

I'm in utter agreement with Sparthos's statements. He hit on the current state of the game, for better or for worse. This is why I think Daemon's comments are helpful. He is actually trying to show people what they need to do UNTIL the devs themselves create more content in that "gap." But I agree there are issues with the xpac and hopefully the new events Matsui is adding between the content levels in July/August will help out.

I don't need to be told what to do thank you very much......

Edit: or shown I've been playing for five years..... yet everybody else's perspective is being pushed upon me expecting me to play how they wanna... SE has presented me a game I play... I play it... sometimes I try the higher up endgame content... one thing for sure communication is kinda stupid in FFXI..... can't get anything done....

[Kojo]

It doesn't matter what example I used. It's the fact that people are misleading others to believe that REM is absolutely useless therefore encouraging others not to dedicate time into getting these or other equipment out there in other contents when they are still relevant and needed.

Maybe Top level players who have the ability to obtain Delve weapons and Delve gear find it useless. But telling players who don't already have the best not to get the gear "They have already" is misleading and misguiding to those who don't.

You cannot expect every player to be on the same level as you.

Delve weapons are very easy to get if you find a leader who isn't an elitist prick, because of that, no, melee relics are not worth it as a stepping stone. Secondly it matters a great deal what example you use when you're making a bold statement about R/M/Es being useful and only using Yagrush as an example.

I'd also like to point out that you never gave a valid reason as to why R/M/Es are still useful. If you have one already and do not have a delve weapon, relics are still useful till you get a Delve weapon, then it becomes a conversation piece. If you are new or returning and have no R/M/E, it isn't going to be worth getting one to bridge the gap, easier, faster, and more efficient to level a utility job to get into Delve for your Delve weapon.

[Daemon]

You're making a dig at Abyssea when clearly you've as much to learn as the rest of us.

I freely admit im not the best SCH but I know well enough that fulltiming Hvergelmir is a horrible decision akin to wanting to melee BLM to utilize the aftermath of the Mythic staff. It sounds good on paper just like taking certain jobs to specific events sounds good until you're knee deep in the event and realize just how ineffective things become.

The benefits of +1 refresh using something as simple as an Owleyes in combination with Genbu's Shield for idling and swapping into Magians/Tefnut/Soothsayers trumps any benefit being able to fill your MP bar will ever provide. Your heals will be better, your nukes more effective, debuffs will stick more frequently and this in your main slot, arguably the most powerful slot for any job.

Again, provide and event where padding MP is so crucial and with some combination of gear and proper JA usage you can do better than using Hvergelmir. Delve EXP? Use Regen, Sublimation, Penury Cures and most of the time you should be able to maintain a safe buffer MP-wise and that is before you factor in the songs/rolls you should be receiving from someone.

Owleyes/xx/xx/xx
Nefer/Serp/xx/xx
Heka's/xx/xx/xx
xx/xx/Nares/Serp

Easy refresh/idle build. Orveil, Bokwus or Nefer gear are all easily acquired bodypieces and I tossed in the Nefer Khat since its easier to obtain than a Refresh hairpin for most. The Serpentes pieces are easily acquired, Sublimation gear can be idled in when you aren't doing anything for even more Refresh. Access to Convert and Refresh from /RDM give you further MP saving options on top of the ones native to Scholar. The hardest piece in that build to get is Nares and you can replace that with Subligar from Abyssea.

Yeah I see your build is for refresh. And that's fine if it works for you. But then I never have to depend on Bard / Cor to keep my MP up which provides them an easier job by only focusing on DD.

Penury is good I admit but would rather use the strategems for Perpetuance and Accession. And when I don't have 2 strategems to use on Regen V. Accession is enough to help you keep them healed.

You are dealing with 99 who are well geared for these events. So there is no reason to be "overgeared" for every thing.

I barely find the need to use Nefer khat and mostly keep AF3 headpiece on for most occasions unless I'm desperate for MP then ill switch over with Serpentes set.

However...

Why on earth would you ever replace Nefer Khat with a refresh pin when Hekas Kilasiris is only 1 tick and both as set give you 3MP per tick? These are small details that matter >.>

And well why you fill up valuable slots with refresh gear....

[Umichi]

Delve weapons are very easy to get if you find a leader who isn't an elitist prick, because of that, no, melee relics are not worth it as a stepping stone. Secondly it matters a great deal what example you use when you're making a bold statement about R/M/Es being useful and only using Yagrush as an example.

I'd also like to point out that you never gave a valid reason as to why R/M/Es are still useful. If you have one already and do not have a delve weapon, relics are still useful till you get a Delve weapon, then it becomes a conversation piece. If you are new or returning and have no R/M/E, it isn't going to be worth getting one to bridge the gap, easier, faster, and more efficient to level a utility job to get into Delve for your Delve weapon.

What if it's a job I don't enjoy playing?

[Daemon]

Honestly, I don't think I'd recommend any newer player to take the advice from someone who advocates fulltiming a staff on a mage job and says 50% cure potency isn't necessary.

Well lets see if you are SCH and hired to play as Main heal support...u are not DDing... You are not Nuking... U are not enfeebling... And you should not be constantly switching staffs... And what you gain from your 50% potency well makes up for it through other buffs...

Knowing your job doesn't mean only knowing the gear but requires you to know your time limits on recast and what things you need to switch over for what moments necessary.

[Kojo]

What if it's a job I don't enjoy playing?

It's the price you pay for the weapon, that's a preference issue. I doubt many R/M/E users enjoyed the process of getting their weapon, but they were determined enough to do what is neccessary to get it.

[Kojo]

Well lets see if you are SCH and hired to play as Main heal support...u are not DDing... You are not Nuking... U are not enfeebling... And you should not be constantly switching staffs... And what you gain from your 50% potency well makes up for it through other buffs...

Knowing your job doesn't mean only knowing the gear but requires you to know your time limits on recast and what things you need to switch over for what moments necessary.

Chatoyant Staff.

[Umichi]

It's the price you pay for the weapon, that's a preference issue. I doubt many R/M/E users enjoyed the process of getting their weapon, but they were determined enough to do what is neccessary to get it.

so i have to suffer and follow with their mindframe of thinking?

[Zagen]

Well lets see if you are SCH and hired to play as Main heal support...u are not DDing... You are not Nuking... U are not enfeebling... And you should not be constantly switching staffs... And what you gain from your 50% potency well makes up for it through other buffs...

Knowing your job doesn't mean only knowing the gear but requires you to know your time limits on recast and what things you need to switch over for what moments necessary.

When I cure my SCH goes from Owleyes/Genbu's Shield to Tefnut Wand/Genbu's Shield, and that's just the main and sub slots I actually swap out much more.

I'm going to assume you already know how to play SCH so you also know the importance of an idle set with refresh/sublimation gear, a cure potency gear set, a fast cast set, an enhancing set, a haste set to help with recast, and a healing skill set. That's just for Light Arts and sets I'd consider a minimum to play SCH well, at least that's the standard I held my SCH which I only revived for NNI.

[Sparthos]

With the above setup you shouldn't need too much BRD/COR support for Delve EXP. In actuality if your DD are good enough, you could suffice on a spare Ballad II leaving the COR to pull / engage or the BRD to pull more mobs. At the least you should have enough MP to keep your DD hasted, Dia on pulls and cures or regens going around. Depending on how much sponging is going on, you could either add enspells/adloquilum or save MP for cures.

All that comes down to split-second decisions you should be making depending on the group. For any other event, you can do the same thing but many of the other events in FFXI are easier than Delve EXP making personal sources of Refresh usually enough to sustain you.

If an idle/refresh set is overgeared then IDK what to say. It's one of the most crucial sets for maintaining a decent healer and avoiding situations where you're forced to rest and SE has gone out of their way to make it stupid easy for anyone to acquire even the most rudimentary sets on the cheap. It's like a Haste setup for DD, really.

The number 1 reason SCH or WHMs suck at healing is due to either not having an idle set, not using /SCH or /RDM for valuable SJ abilities, lacking cure potency (!) or using high tier cures for everything rather than picking the right cure for the right situation.

As for the Nefer Khat? Like I said, its easily acquired on the AH and avoids hours of grinding Konschtat for a pin and matches Heka's or its AH versions but I never said you couldn't go get a Wivre Pin or further, get yourself a Coif from Legion HQ'd for the most optimal Refresh hat.

Valuable slots? It's called gearswaps. Idle set goes in, Cure set goes out. You can explain that.

You're currently killing your best slot with a bad Empyrean weapon that has limited use at anything that matters and you're free to do that but lets not call that anything approaching ideal.

[Zagen]

so i have to suffer and follow with their mindframe of thinking?

Lead instead of waiting to join a run and you won't need to subscribe to that frame of thinking.

[Daemon]

Chatoyant Staff.

For what cause??? So replacing your Emp for this staff serves better purpose than keeping your MP up? We are not in abbysea anymore. If you want to throw end game advice to me then that staff is totally irrelevant and unnecessary when gear sets and specific enhancement pieces well make up for the benefit you are getting from Chatoyant. With Adoulin gear to pieces in AH that give you magic accuracy to AF if you really want Magic Accuracy then Drlve soothsayer Accuracy path is better than this.

You are not playing Pet job so the benefit of -3 Avatar perpetuance cost and Charm Success 15% does not apply to any benefit to you.

If you really want Cure potency so bad then Magian staff trial is best suited but I already gave reasons why you don't need it in the other replies.

And you don't need weather bonus unless you want are doing something that requires you to to have a specific gear set however to me this is still irrelevant.

It was a nice staff to have before but I never use it.

Elemental resistance there's an earring for that combined with bar spells and buffs.

And those stats are weak.
Good staff for earlier content I admit.

[Umichi]

Lead instead of waiting to join a run and you won't need to subscribe to that frame of thinking.

I guess there is never escaping politics is there? Can't I just find competant people to enjoy a game with? instead of this centric thinking that has ocured over the course or vanadiel?


Edit: and no im not saying that whoever im implying this to are not competant.... have they not progressed in the game further than I?

[Daemon]

With the above setup you shouldn't need too much BRD/COR support for Delve EXP. In actuality if your DD are good enough, you could suffice on a spare Ballad II leaving the COR to pull / engage or the BRD to pull more mobs. At the least you should have enough MP to keep your DD hasted, Dia on pulls and cures or regens going around. Depending on how much sponging is going on, you could either add enspells/adloquilum or save MP for cures.

All that comes down to split-second decisions you should be making depending on the group. For any other event, you can do the same thing but many of the other events in FFXI are easier than Delve EXP making personal sources of Refresh usually enough to sustain you.

If an idle/refresh set is overgeared then IDK what to say. It's one of the most crucial sets for maintaining a decent healer and avoiding situations where you're forced to rest and SE has gone out of their way to make it stupid easy for anyone to acquire even the most rudimentary sets on the cheap. It's like a Haste setup for DD, really.

The number 1 reason SCH or WHMs suck at healing is due to either not having an idle set, not using /SCH or /RDM for valuable SJ abilities, lacking cure potency (!) or using high tier cures for everything rather than picking the right cure for the right situation.

As for the Nefer Khat? Like I said, its easily acquired on the AH and avoids hours of grinding Konschtat for a pin and matches Heka's or its AH versions but I never said you couldn't go get a Wivre Pin or further, get yourself a Coif from Legion HQ'd for the most optimal Refresh hat.

Valuable slots? It's called gearswaps. Idle set goes in, Cure set goes out. You can explain that.

You're currently killing your best slot with a bad Empyrean weapon that has limited use at anything that matters and you're free to do that but lets not call that anything approaching ideal.

Ok your build is for Idle Refresh, mine is Sublimation and Myrkr. It's 2 different things that do the same thing however my path is for Regen and TP. I always keep these 2 spells up full time. You can't benefit refresh with Sublimation up correct?

I am telling you I don't need to depend on Cor and BRD refresh support with the path I play because of Myrkr.

I honestly don't see how anyone needs to switch over to several staffs if you are hired to focus on keeping the party alive?

To flat out say Myrkr is useless is where we have this conflict.

[Kojo]

Besides Myrkr, how does Emp keep your MP up? Why can you use Myrkr often enough to matter? Chatoyant is an easy way to not swap staves and have a staff benefitting your spells.

[Daemon]

Besides Myrkr, how does Emp keep your MP up? Why can you use Myrkr often enough to matter? Chatoyant is an easy way to not swap staves and have a staff benefitting your spells.

Well that would be a contradiction to our conversation. If we are talking about switching staves and not switching staves. And I already answered this question in the earlier replies anyways.

[Kojo]

I guess there is never escaping politics is there? Can't I just find competant people to enjoy a game with? instead of this centric thinking that has ocured over the course or vanadiel?


Edit: and no im not saying that whoever im implying this to are not competant.... have they not progressed in the game further than I?

Good luck, my utility job suggestion was to get into ab everyday PUG, you can probably get by with any job decently geared, but everyone seems to use Ricky Bobby logic, "if you ain't first, you're last."

[Sparthos]

I guess there is never escaping politics is there? Can't I just find competant people to enjoy a game with? instead of this centric thinking that has ocured over the course or vanadiel?


Edit: and no im not saying that whoever im implying this to are not competant.... have they not progressed in the game further than I?

If you're unable to set a simple standard then you're not going to find competent people to play with. Infact, you're going to find the worst people who have no idea what the hell they are doing to play with. Lets put 6 PUPs in a party! THE AUTOMATON CAN HEAL AND HASTE ERBODY!

Things don't have to reach hyper-elitist behavior where one piece being sub-optimal is grounds for ridicule and being kicked from party but even with the modest standards put forth for shout parties most of them are wonderfully bad. It's like you can feel the bad coming from your PC fans and blowing into your face.

[Zagen]

I guess there is never escaping politics is there? Can't I just find competant people to enjoy a game with? instead of this centric thinking that has ocured over the course or vanadiel?

Leading is the best way to find those type of people you're looking for, assuming they exist.

Based on the shouts I often see and I believe the point of the OP it would appear those type of players are few and far between.

At that point you're left with 3 options:
1) Keep on waiting for someone with that mindset to step up to the leader role.
2) Submit to the cookie cutter standards and level a support job you may hate and use that to farm plasm for the job you like until liked job becomes well enough geared to appease the elitists.
3) Lead your own runs at which point you set forth the standards for the run.

[Daemon]

When I cure my SCH goes from Owleyes/Genbu's Shield to Tefnut Wand/Genbu's Shield, and that's just the main and sub slots I actually swap out much more.

I'm going to assume you already know how to play SCH so you also know the importance of an idle set with refresh/sublimation gear, a cure potency gear set, a fast cast set, an enhancing set, a haste set to help with recast, and a healing skill set. That's just for Light Arts and sets I'd consider a minimum to play SCH well, at least that's the standard I held my SCH which I only revived for NNI.

Ok are but are you focused on cure only or do you keep Regen V up at all times? Because honestly Regen V saves you MP so you don't have to cure high amounts depending on 50% Cure potency.

[Zagen]

Ok are but are you focused on cure only or do you keep Regen V up at all times? Because honestly Regen V saves you MP so you don't have to cure high amounts depending on 50% Cure potency.

Regen V, Haste, keep up with removing debuffs, Bar spells if relevant, Phalanxga, Stoneskinga if it actually is a benefit over a waste of a stratagem. All on top of curing. Also the occasional sleeps to help pullers if applicable.

[Umichi]

Leading is the best way to find those type of people you're looking for, assuming they exist.

Based on the shouts I often see and I believe the point of the OP it would appear those type of players are few and far between.

At that point you're left with 3 options:
1) Keep on waiting for someone with that mindset to step up to the leader role.
2) Submit to the cookie cutter standards and level a support job you may hate and use that to farm plasm for the job you like until liked job becomes well enough geared to appease the elitists.
3) Lead your own runs at which point you set forth the standards for the run.

Bah............... I don't like none of them! I suppose I'll be soloing content for a long time coming then :) well until i meet the rare group or individual who wishes to participate in such things :)

[Tamoa]

Purposely curing with less than 50% cure potency is gimping yourself. Purposely not idling in easily available refresh gear is gimping yourself. Casting pretty much any spell while having Hvergelmir equipped, is gimping yourself.

It's not about using other gearpieces to "make up" for the benefits from a Chatoyant Staff either. It's about adding those benefits from the other gearpieces and the staff - and that's any staff/weapon really, all depending on what you are casting - further enhancing the effect of the spell you cast.

[Kojo]

Purposely curing with less than 50% cure potency is gimping yourself. Purposely not idling in easily available refresh gear is gimping yourself. Casting pretty much any spell while having Hvergelmir equipped, is gimping yourself.

It's not about using other gearpieces to "make up" for the benefits from a Chatoyant Staff either. It's about adding those benefits from the other gearpieces and the staff - and that's any staff/weapon really, all depending on what you are casting - further enhancing the effect of the spell you cast.
I think OP is an Abyssea kid, he won't understand or believe us no matter how hard we try to explain it.

[Sparthos]

Less about Abyssea, more trying to justify Hvergelmir.

It's a bad Empyrean the same way trying to justify Claustrum and Gates of Tartarus' aftermath is bad. For all the hand wringing you have to do to make it barely workable you could have done better with easier to acquire gear. But hey, if you want to do your own thing, feel free to.

[Kojo]

Less about Abyssea, more trying to justify Hvergelmir.

It's a bad Empyrean the same way trying to justify Claustrum and Gates of Tartarus' aftermath is bad. For all the hand wringing you have to do to make it barely workable you could have done better with easier to acquire gear. But hey, if you want to do your own thing, feel free to.

HEY! How dare you speak ill of Claustrum! It's an epic weapon!....ok, I couldn't keep a straight face... Lol

[Umichi]

Less about Abyssea, more trying to justify Hvergelmir.

It's a bad Empyrean the same way trying to justify Claustrum and Gates of Tartarus' aftermath is bad. For all the hand wringing you have to do to make it barely workable you could have done better with easier to acquire gear. But hey, if you want to do your own thing, feel free to.

Isn't that the whole point? the challenge....

[Sparthos]

No macro challenge!

[Kojo]

Isn't that the whole point? the challenge....

But think about how much better you'd be with the gear to make Claust/Hnnnngrmir work, but with Chatoyant or the TotM staves.

[Daemon]

Regen V, Haste, keep up with removing debuffs, Bar spells if relevant, Phalanxga, Stoneskinga if it actually is a benefit over a waste of a stratagem. All on top of curing. Also the occasional sleeps to help pullers if applicable.

What are you doing? Healing all 3 alliances? Or your party isn't geared well enough that they are taking up too much damage?
I do the same things you are doing. But lets figure this out because to me it sounds like you are overgearing.

I can understand WHM needing Cure potency 50% because the job uses MP constantly healing. And cannot recover MP the same as Scholar which is also why I can understand WHM using high Refresh Idle Set.

And yes I understand Genbu has -PDT on top of cure potency aug stats but Terra staff offers higher -PDT.

However...

WHM & SCH are 2 different jobs.

Scholar Regen V alone saves you MP because you do not need to constantly heal several members in your group.
We know that usually 1 or 2 DD most likely holds hate be it tanker or highest damage dealing job.

So if anything you should be spending a lot of MP on those jobs compared to the other DD in your party.

Which is what Regen V well makes up for it.

Phalanx can help members reduce damage which compliments Regen. As do Stoneskin but I only use this rarely when necessary. Because of the limitations of Strategems.

Hekas Kilasiris gives you 15% Cure potency. And if you are really desperate to heal someone that bad then that's what Rapture is for.

The strategy of using Regen V is also watching players in your party. If someone took a hit on rare occasions obviously you don't need to cure them, just wait for Regen V to handle that.

Remember you most likely have other support jobs who can help toss in a cure here and there so if team work plays out good you shouldn't be so heavily focused on curing but also keep buffs up on players.

I always keep Hvelgamir and Vivid grip strap on for its fast cast.

As I said before you have Sublimation which mine is fully merited. And because Sublimation gives you immunity to spells like sleep. This alone can help you keep MP up decently. I almost rarely use Convert as I use Myrkr instead.

By the time your MP falls to low level depending on the pace of your party, then TP from Adloquium should be high enough to use Myrkr. At above 200+ TP you gain about 500+ MP back which Sublimation is on countdown.

If you have 300% you can gain 900-1k MP back

And the benefit of Myrkr is that you can engage battle from far away to use it in between wait time for mobs to repop as long as you can find 1 monster.

Again Icarus wing and Vile Elixer you carry in case of emergency and if you have WHM in party Ask your WHM to devotion you.

Enhancing set and enhancement pieces are there for you to switch over for buffs.. Which you don't really need staff for that.

And we know you are not going to constantly use Embrava because its only active during TR.. Therefore you don't need to worry about switching staves unless its for that reason.

In case You desperately need help healing HP to your party that's what Embrava is for also. 1 hours are there for emergencies.. Regen V and Regen off Embrava is very powerful. But you need to keep SCH AF3 Hat on when using Regen spells.

If you really want cure potency there are other gears for that but again it doesn't mean SCH needs to have 50% Cure potency...

Just like DD have to make choices on what sacrifice they need to make to use certain pieces...I choose to sacrifice Cure Potency for MP especially if I can gain 1k back with EMP staff.

Oh yeah I didn't even mention that Cor and Bard could refresh you if you cannot rely on yourself independently to do it.

Remember abilities such as Rapture, Penury are there for a reason. And If your team is going too fast... I'm sure they won't kind taking a few seconds to let you recover as you are doing a lot to help them.

[Kojo]

Mama-se, mama-sa, mama-coo-sa~

OP just gotta be startin' somethin'.

[Daemon]

Less about Abyssea, more trying to justify Hvergelmir.

It's a bad Empyrean the same way trying to justify Claustrum and Gates of Tartarus' aftermath is bad. For all the hand wringing you have to do to make it barely workable you could have done better with easier to acquire gear. But hey, if you want to do your own thing, feel free to.

No you just can't accept the fact that there are different ways to using gear and strategy. Not everyone is a robot.

[Zagen]

What are doing? Healing all 3 alliances? Or your party isn't geared well enough that they are taking up too much damage?

5-6 players, to be more specific 3 DDs, and 2-3 pullers (BRDs, CORs, and/or THFs). It's the fact my party doesn't gear swap into stupid setups. I'm guessing you have or rather prefer DDs who sit in PDT sets where as I'd much rather they full time the optimal TP and WS sets when we're just talking about fracture plasm farming.


I can understand WHM needing Cure potency 50% because the job uses MP constantly healing. And cannot recover MP the same as Scholar which is also why I can understand WHM using high Refresh Idle Set.

Actually a WHM is just as much if not more MP efficient when they are focusing on cures at least when done properly.


And yes I understand Genbu has -PDT but Terra staff offers higher.

Actually Genbu's shield is simply left alone because there are issues with gear swaping via macros that gets weird with sub slot. The only reason I have Genbu is for it's augmented Cure potency and -cure casting time. The PDT is irrelevant to me as I have a PDT set as well though that doesn't see the light of day much because well I'm rarely stupid about my curing reducing the chance of me pulling hate in the beginning of fights.


Scholar Regen V alone saves you MP because you do not need to constantly heal several members in your group.
We know that usually 1 or 2 DD most likely holds hate be it tanker or highest damage dealing job.

In a good group all 3 DDs are sharing the tanking duty not just 1-2 DDs. Regen V is awesome except when the monster pulls off a TP move that ends up doing 1k damage. While that DD may live long enough to have a few regen ticks heal him up I sure won't be finding out because I'll be tossing a cure to ensure cure + regen keeps him alive.


Hekas Kilasiris gives you 15% Cure potency. And if you are really desperate to heal someone that bad then that's what Rapture is for.

Not having to depend on Rapture has always been my goal, that leaves my statagems for buffs and aoe debuff removal, or a pinch aoe cure.


Remember you most likely have other support jobs who can help toss in a cure here and there so if team work plays out good you shouldn't be so heavily focused on curing but also keep buffs up on players.

They're busy pulling because that allows the DDs to focus on killing as fast as possible and I am more than able to focus on curing without the need of supports tossing in cures. Helpful but I definitely don't depend on it.


As I said before you have Sublimation which mine is fully merited. This alone can help you keep MP up decently. I almost rarely use Convert as I use Myrkr instead.

I use convert assuming I even need it, Sublimation + refresh gear I swap back into after casts are often more than enough. If I get low on MP then I still have convert to fall back on which doesn't lock my main/sub slots. It doesn't require another inventory space taken up by a Dusty Wing.


Enhancing set and enhancement pieces are there for you to switch over for buffs.. Which you don't really need staff for that.

Never said I needed the weapon slot for my enhancing set, though for most people Kirin's Pole augmented is easier to acquire than other options.


And we know you are not going to constantly use Embrava because its only active during TR.. Therefore you don't need to worry about switching staves unless its for that reason.

In case You desperately need help healing HP to your party that's what Embrava is for also. 1 hours are there for emergencies..

I don't need to depend on Tabua Rasa for Embrava or Stratagems. I'd wager because my "overgearing" allows me the comfort of not ever having to look at them as pinch solutions. Though I do agree they still count as that well assuming you have the MP to cover the costs.


If you really want cure potency there are other gears for that but again it doesn't mean SCH needs to have 50% Cure potency...

Just like DD have to make choices on what sacrifice they need to make to use certain pieces...

Maybe not having 50% is acceptable to you though to be frank I bet if you aimed for 50% you'd find you need the MP from Myrkr and Vile Elixir/+1 would go down.

[Tamoa]

I'm honestly quite confused here, as the OP seems to be saying he (or she) is mp efficient yet he (or she) is also saying Myrkr is useful - in fact so useful that he (or she) fulltimes the staff in addition to the availability of sublimation, convert, refresh gear and even aspir, devotion, ballads and evokers.

You're curing in 15% potency only? Okay, so let's say you'd cure for 500 hp with no +potency at all. That means you'll cure for 575 hp with your 15% potency. With 50% cure potency you'll cure for 750 hp - that is a significant increase and can actually mean the difference between your cure target living or being K.O.'d.

[Karah]

I leave for a couple hours and you guys take this thread and just steamroll it into 17 freakin pages! Unbelievable.

Really, 5 pages about a Hverglmer... *headdesk*

I can't tell if this is supposed to be serious anymore, or you're genuinely this crazy, the 45 paragraph replies, aren't helping either...

[Daemon]

5-6 players, to be more specific 3 DDs, and 2-3 pullers (BRDs, CORs, and/or THFs). It's the fact my party doesn't gear swap into stupid setups. I'm guessing you have or rather prefer DDs who sit in PDT sets where as I'd much rather they full time the optimal TP and WS sets when we're just talking about fracture plasm farming.

Seriously we could be debating over this all day. How did i ever imply that DD would sit idle in -Pdt gear?

And in my opinion Plasm farming doesnt require you to be massively geared for this with 50% potency unless you are doing something bigger. Theres several ways to be efficient in mp.


Actually a WHM is just as much if not more MP efficient when they are focusing on cures at least when done properly.

Ok agreed, if done properly. Just the same as Scholar. Although between mystic boon from WHM and hvelgamir for SCH people can benefit using hvelgamir because you dont need to attack monster to gain MP back. While as scholar can gain it back from far away.


Actually Genbu's shield is simply left alone because there are issues with gear swaping via macros that gets weird with sub slot. The only reason I have Genbu is for it's augmented Cure potency and -cure casting time. The PDT is irrelevant to me as I have a PDT set as well though that doesn't see the light of day much because well I'm rarely stupid about my curing reducing the chance of me pulling hate in the beginning of fights.

Yeah but I carry it in case you have parties that don't work out well where everyone starts dying and sooner or later boss will turn to you...



In a good group all 3 DDs are sharing the tanking duty not just 1-2 DDs. Regen V is awesome except when the monster pulls off a TP move that ends up doing 1k damage. While that DD may live long enough to have a few regen ticks heal him up I sure won't be finding out because I'll be tossing a cure to ensure cure + regen keeps him alive.

And does it not make sense for a DD to be carrying -PDT gear to switch over after using TP move? and in that case WHM casting flash to blind it during TP move would not severely lower accuracy doesnt make a difference? Yet if you had phalanx up or even lets say you also kept up stoneskin, im not seeing how a DD can take in 1k damage unless you are fighting a boss which in this case you are talking about Delve plasm farming.


Not having to depend on Rapture has always been my goal, that leaves my statagems for buffs and aoe debuff removal, or a pinch aoe cure.

I never said i depend on Rapture, but i did said that its there in case you need it, i mean thats why we have the ability no?



They're busy pulling because that allows the DDs to focus on killing as fast as possible and I am more than able to focus on curing without the need of supports tossing in cures. Helpful but I definitely don't depend on it.

Well im not busy curing all the time, Im actually more busy keeping TP regain, Phalanx, Storms, Enspells, Haste and Shell/Protect when needed. Occassionally raising bard if he/she gets too happy on pulling several mobs or doesnt carry -pdt gear while doing it.

And i dont need others to help me either, but I did point out that in case you need it, other jobs have the ability to cure too. No player is meant to be a 1 man show. I mean thats the point in having team work? Or we all suppose to be solo mode for every occassion?



I use convert assuming I even need it, Sublimation + refresh gear I swap back into after casts are often more than enough. If I get low on MP then I still have convert to fall back on which doesn't lock my main/sub slots. It doesn't require another inventory space taken up by a Dusty Wing.

I barely use convert, and most runs I never use it.



Never said I needed the weapon slot for my enhancing set, though for most people Kirin's Pole augmented is easier to acquire than other options.

Ok if you do not need it for that, then i am assuming you need it for magian staff cure potency?



I don't need to depend on Tabua Rasa for Embrava or Stratagems. I'd wager because my "overgearing" allows me the comfort of not ever having to look at them as pinch solutions. Though I do agree they still count as that well assuming you have the MP to cover the costs.

I dont depend on Tabula Rasa for Embrava either, I just said that if you really need it, its Regen stacked with Regen V makes a difference.
And when I see that our team covers alot of mobs, Why not just use it so they can kill stuff faster benefiting from Haste so you can only focus on enhancing spell buffs instead of healing when Regen V and embrava up can make your job easier?



Maybe not having 50% is acceptable to you though to be frank I bet if you aimed for 50% you'd find you need the MP from Myrkr and Vile Elixir/+1 would go down.

Well we are talking about delve plasm farming correct? I never need to use Vile Elixer, however again I carry it in case its emergency.

Question though: Are you depending on bards and corsair to help you keep mp up?

[Daemon]

I'm honestly quite confused here, as the OP seems to be saying he (or she) is mp efficient yet he (or she) is also saying Myrkr is useful - in fact so useful that he (or she) fulltimes the staff in addition to the availability of sublimation, convert, refresh gear and even aspir, devotion, ballads and evokers.

You're curing in 15% potency only? Okay, so let's say you'd cure for 500 hp with no +potency at all. That means you'll cure for 575 hp with your 15% potency. With 50% cure potency you'll cure for 750 hp - that is a significant increase and can actually mean the difference between your cure target living or being K.O.'d.

Well i never said i only use Hekas 15% cure potency. And seriously im tired of you attacking me and trying to point out to everyone as if your word against mine is more superior, as if gear and strategy has to be strickly one way instead of accepting the fact that not everyone plays the job the same as you.

And you are confusing yourself by not actually reading when i said IF YOU NEED IT.

Because im not addressing my post based on answering just you. But including the abilities and options that the job has that are there in case you need it. Big difference.

[Daemon]

I leave for a couple hours and you guys take this thread and just steamroll it into 17 freakin pages! Unbelievable.

Really, 5 pages about a Hverglmer... *headdesk*

I can't tell if this is supposed to be serious anymore, or you're genuinely this crazy, the 45 paragraph replies, aren't helping either...

I know im wasting all my time trying to defend myself because people want to debate over whose build is right or wrong rather accepting the fact that you are accomplishing the same goal, not everyone plays the job the same.

[Umichi]

But think about how much better you'd be with the gear to make Claust/Hnnnngrmir work, but with Chatoyant or the TotM staves.

and live with the sorry state that most players subvert their lives to doing during a video game... bad enough i do it in real life :) besides that I've no interest in those objects... and i own an irridal staff of which i do use for my drg :)

[Connavarr]

So much stupid my brain has melted. Thanks, now I'm drooling all over the place and my girlfriend is giving me funny looks. >.>

[Tamoa]

Well i never said i only use Hekas 15% cure potency. And seriously im tired of you attacking me and trying to point out to everyone as if your word against mine is more superior, as if gear and strategy has to be strickly one way instead of accepting the fact that not everyone plays the job the same as you.

I'm trying to point out that you are purposely gimping yourself by fulltiming Hvergelmir. And by purposely not having 50% cure potency. But it's obviously falling on deaf ears.

You are the one who brought up Myrkr specifically in this thread. And if you haven't noticed already, there hasn't been a single soul agreeing with you.

[Daemon]

I'm trying to point out that you are purposely gimping yourself by fulltiming Hvergelmir. And by purposely not having 50% cure potency. But it's obviously falling on deaf ears.

You are the one who brought up Myrkr specifically in this thread. And if you haven't noticed already, there hasn't been a single soul agreeing with you.

Yeah because you still cannot accept the fact that not everyone plays the same way as you. So do i really need to have the same exact gear as you? Follow your every single strategy because thats the only way it needs to be done? But you insist to keep insulting me.

And then people wonder why i made this post in the first place. Its because rather than be open minded to the fact that no one has the same equipment and strategy you cannot expect all of us to be exactly the same.

Just like not everyone in abbysea and lower level content will show up wanting to do adoulin stuff will have the highest end game equipment.

This is why several people are suffering in game because its players like you with your mindset expect everyone else to follow your example and have a delve weapon for places that are not even relevant.

And instead of listening to other people and seeing that there are different people, different cultures and players who can do different ways to play their character, you would rather point me out on every single thing and call me wrong for it.

[Alpheus]

Yeah because you still cannot accept the fact that not everyone plays the same way as you. So do i really need to have the same exact gear as you? Follow your every single strategy because thats the only way it needs to be done?

Ok time out. You realize the same could be said to you right Daemon?

[Umichi]

Yeah because you still cannot accept the fact that not everyone plays the same way as you. So do i really need to have the same exact gear as you? Follow your every single strategy because thats the only way it needs to be done?

they can't pull away from their own perspectives lol.... it's always about statistical efficiency.....

[Alpheus]

**** it.

/10char

[Zagen]

So much flip flopping on points you brought up, so I'm just going to address 2 things.


Ok if you do not need it for that, then i am assuming you need it for magian staff cure potency?

Already pointed out I don't use ToTM, I use Tefnut Wand. Again because there are issues with swapping out main and sub weapons through macros. While technically Tefnut/Genbu isn't the best option it still allows players to hit 50% relatively easily.


Question though: Are you depending on bards and corsair to help you keep mp up?

Did I say I was or even imply that? The answer is no.

[Tamoa]

Yeah because you still cannot accept the fact that not everyone plays the same way as you. So do i really need to have the same exact gear as you? Follow your every single strategy because thats the only way it needs to be done?

Play any way you like, it makes no difference to me personally. It's only when you post on a public forum trying to convince people that something like Myrkr is useful enough to actually make the staff (empyrean or WoE) that I will state my opinion on the matter.

If you (the reader) want Hvergelmir or the WoE staff, by all means go ahead and make one. But if you want to be as efficient as you can on either of the jobs that can equip it, you won't be using it much, if at all.

[Umichi]

Play any way you like, it makes no difference to me personally. It's only when you post on a public forum trying to convince people that something like Myrkr is useful enough to actually make the staff (empyrean or WoE) that I will state my opinion on the matter.

If you (the reader) want Hvergelmir or the WoE staff, by all means go ahead and make one. But if you want to be as efficient as you can on either of the jobs that can equip it, you won't be using it much, if at all.

a public forum primarily used by players of elevated status and or aforementioned lack of open mindedness who are in the majority.... that is prevalent on alot of forums tbh

[Daemon]

Anyone else want to insult me? Put me down for trying to be nice and help others out? Because so far Im only seeing people criticize me for trying.

[Daemon]

Play any way you like, it makes no difference to me personally. It's only when you post on a public forum trying to convince people that something like Myrkr is useful enough to actually make the staff (empyrean or WoE) that I will state my opinion on the matter.

If you (the reader) want Hvergelmir or the WoE staff, by all means go ahead and make one. But if you want to be as efficient as you can on either of the jobs that can equip it, you won't be using it much, if at all.

Yeah and thats your opinion and I respect that however what i dont respect is when people play black and white and advise others that your way is the only way.

[Rekin]

The ultimate problem isn't players not being open minded. Its just that people rather not waste more time than needed to a achieve something, be it menial tasks or large undertakings. For a game that is extremely math heavy and thoroughly explored by many veterans and people of many related professions its obvious to anyone that those who want to achieve things will go about it in the most effective manner in which others will follow be it by learning the job on their own(on of the best whms I've ever known did this) or through doing research(hey I aby burned blm and am perfectly capable of playing it not like an idiot wooooo).

What is hurting the game the most is how unfriendly the game is in regards to player error and length of time devoted to these events. Be it between gathering/planning people to do an event and then the event itself people do not want failure as it is a massive morale break and thus are willing to give up small bits of their own joy for the greater thus why people often say level another job.

TL:DR
Daemon people aren't smashing you for trying to invoke alternative play, they are doing so because you are advocating for them to do things that may ultimately burn them out as the game currently is in flux with many being unable to make the connections to do those earlier events and even then its a tasking choir.

[Umichi]

The ultimate problem isn't players not being open minded. Its just that people rather not waste more time than needed to a achieve something, be it menial tasks or large undertakings. For a game that is extremely math heavy and thoroughly explored by many veterans and people of many related professions its obvious to anyone that those who want to achieve things will go about it in the most effective manner in which others will follow be it by learning the job on their own(on of the best whms I've ever known did this) or through doing research(hey I aby burned blm and am perfectly capable of playing it not like an idiot wooooo).

What is hurting the game the most is how unfriendly the game is in regards to player error and length of time devoted to these events. Be it between gathering/planning people to do an event and then the event itself people do not want failure as it is a massive morale break and thus are willing to give up small bits of their own joy for the greater thus why people often say level another job.

TL:DR
Daemon people aren't smashing you for trying to invoke alternative play, they are doing so because you are advocating for them to do things that may ultimately burn them out as the game currently is in flux with many being unable to make the connections to do those earlier events and even then its a tasking choir.

/monacle, they still should stop trying to make everything they say absolute. Our databases for compiling information are starting to go dormant... at least from my perspective... the only place with alot of item info is xi ah and bg wiki does a good job but their forums are kinda terrible... and ffxiclopedia... i love it do death but no one bothers having discusssions about stuff anymore....

[Daemon]

The ultimate problem isn't players not being open minded. Its just that people rather not waste more time than needed to a achieve something, be it menial tasks or large undertakings. For a game that is extremely math heavy and thoroughly explored by many veterans and people of many related professions its obvious to anyone that those who want to achieve things will go about it in the most effective manner in which others will follow be it by learning the job on their own(on of the best whms I've ever known did this) or through doing research(hey I aby burned blm and am perfectly capable of playing it not like an idiot wooooo).

What is hurting the game the most is how unfriendly the game is in regards to player error and length of time devoted to these events. Be it between gathering/planning people to do an event and then the event itself people do not want failure as it is a massive morale break and thus are willing to give up small bits of their own joy for the greater thus why people often say level another job.

TL:DR
Daemon people aren't smashing you for trying to invoke alternative play, they are doing so because you are advocating for them to do things that may ultimately burn them out as the game currently is in flux with many being unable to make the connections to do those earlier events and even then its a tasking choir.

And I agree with you however, i dont agree with how some players have the attitude of acting like their high standards need to be met up with theirs.

Im not going to sit here and tell people to stop collecting gear or dont do this because its worthless. To those of you who think its worthless fine. Thats your opinion but advising others to because you think you know its worthless is where im offended. Let that be the choice of the person who wants to take the time to earn whatever gear they want. Rather then give them a reason not to do it all. If that really is the case then might as well advise them not even play the game. Some people think Delve is the only gear that matters. Im here trying to tell people its not, and that they need to go out and collect other pieces for different reason and different purposes.

Burned out because they dont want to take the time to do anything does not mean everyone is the same either.

Maybe Hvelgamir is worthless to you people but I have it and use it all the time that I can say im happy with it and that it does make a difference in how I play. However disrespecting me by acting like Im talking nonsense and trying to make my statement meritless is where you people are not only judging me but you also are trashing me and trying to put me down as if i dont deserve to have an opinion because mine doesnt matter over yours.

[Alpheus]

Anyone else want to insult me? Put me down for trying to be nice and help others out? Because so far Im only seeing people criticize me for trying.

People have commended you for putting yourself out there just unfortunately not everyone is going to agree with you especially when you put forth ideas that run counter to how a majority of players understand the game. People are gonna call it as they see it. Hate to break it to ya.

[Daemon]

People have commended you for putting yourself out there just unfortunately not everyone is going to agree with you especially when you put forth ideas that run counter to how a majority of players understand the game. People are gonna call it as they see it. Hate to break it to ya.

And act like i dont understand the game either? Yeah ok, Im done with this game. And Im done trying to help others.

[Zagen]

When you talk like this:

Well lets see if you are SCH and hired to play as Main heal support...u are not DDing... You are not Nuking... U are not enfeebling... And you should not be constantly switching staffs... And what you gain from your 50% potency well makes up for it through other buffs...

Knowing your job doesn't mean only knowing the gear but requires you to know your time limits on recast and what things you need to switch over for what moments necessary.

You're going to get told off because you're giving advice and not your opinion.

When you talk like this though:


Maybe Hvelgamir is worthless to you people but I have it and use it all the time that I can say im happy with it and that it does make a difference in how I play. However disrespecting me by acting like Im talking nonsense and trying to make my statement meritless is where you people are not only judging me but you also are trashing me and trying to put me down as if i dont deserve to have an opinion because mine doesnt matter over yours.

Your opinion won't get met with much resistance because you are simply stating what works for you. It is an opinion and not advice.

[Tamoa]

Advocating fulltiming one staff on a mage job is nonsense though. At least if you're serious about a job and want to maximize the effect of your spells as well as being as efficient as possible. Hvergelmir will do nothing for your spells, or make you cast faster or lower your recast timer. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Equipping it and using an icarus wing to regain mp in an oshit situation is an option, I'll give you that. It's not one I'd use myself (never been necessary), nor would I recommend making the staff for that reason alone. But if you already have the staff or want to make one anyway, sure, nothing wrong with keeping a wing in your inventory if you have room for it.

[Daemon]

When you talk like this:


You're going to get told off because you're giving advice and not your opinion.

When you talk like this though:



Your opinion won't get met with much resistance because you are simply stating what works for you. It is an opinion and not advice.

And you pointing out only 1 piece of the conversation to think that im giving people advice. Read before this article and you will see that Im defending myself. Big Difference.

Giving official advice and debating with someone else is not the same.

[Daemon]

Advocating fulltiming one staff on a mage job is nonsense though. At least if you're serious about a job and want to maximize the effect of your spells as well as being as efficient as possible. Hvergelmir will do nothing for your spells, or make you cast faster or lower your recast timer. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Equipping it and using an icarus wing to regain mp in an oshit situation is an option, I'll give you that. It's not one I'd use myself (never been necessary), nor would I recommend making the staff for that reason alone. But if you already have the staff or want to make one anyway, sure, nothing wrong with keeping a wing in your inventory if you have room for it.

So lets hear your official advice on what is the correct way we all should be playing.

[Damane]

I agree to some degree with the OP.

The challenge is there and managable, people just slacked too much and got lazy. Not only do you have to be somewhat skilled to take on delve bosses (and that requires focus from each ally member, you cant have melees go rampage without knowing when to go into defense mode) but you also need the gear to back it up otherwise you will hit a wall. So get your lazy asses up and start gearing yourself up.

[Tamoa]

So lets hear your official advice on what is the correct way we all should be playing.

I'm not going to write a lengthy response explaining how to optimally gear your mage jobs. FFXIAH has excellent guides for those who seek advice, way better than what I'd be able to put together in a few minutes.

Sch: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/32145/a-scholars-education/

Blm: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/38032/kaboom-a-guide-for-black-mage/

Smn: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/35040/the-6th-ministrys-secret-a-summoners-guide/

[Daemon]

Just to be clear about something to those who do read our debates and arguements.

I never implied that you dont need to have the sets at all. I stated that for certain things its not necessary to use capped sets allowing you to use different pieces of gear for different reasons. Its not official advice, it was just an opinion.

If you read my guide from the other post, I even encouraged people to collect several sets and find out the max cap on the ability in question.

The debate here is that I stated for simple things like plasm farming, you can still achieve the same goal without having to wear 50% cure potency and gave the reason why i dont wear it. However this was not official advice, it was only sharing with you the different game strategy i use.

In general this really wasn't the purpose of the topic in question. As my original post was about how the actions of others is effecting the community and disagreed that people shouldnt be advising others to stop collecting gears. I also stated that its not fair to have unreasonable expectations of others who are not on the same level as the those who are.

The reason why i brought up this post is because I was sick of seeing people telling others not get REM because its worthless. When SE already stated that they will add in upgrades later for it.

I also was tired of seeing people in town discriminating others for not having Delve weapons in lower level content where its not needed.

I was also disappointed to see players say "Why are you helping me? and after saying because "i want to", they said "Oh, usually people dont help anyone." And this is why i felt the need to make this post.

But rather seeing the positive side of how I wanted to bring this topic into light, I ended up debating and arguing with several players and therefore end it here, thanks and enjoy FFXI. Im out.

[raps1355]

This is why several people are suffering in game because its players like you with your mindset expect everyone else to follow your example and have a delve weapon for places that are not even relevant.


No one is suffering and anyone who claims to be is doing it to themselves. If they dont want to play a certain way then they dont have to but at the same time they shouldnt complain that others wont accept them no matter what. All i see here is you saying some should put more work in but some people shouldnt and get the same benefits.

[OmnysValefor]

For the record, the game would be a lot different if SE came through on all the things they stated.

I am 100% sure RME updates are coming, but I was 100% it would be a priority and would actually be coming soon.

[Zagen]

For the record, the game would be a lot different if SE came through on all the things they stated.

I am 100% sure RME updates are coming, but I was 100% it would be a priority and would actually be coming soon.

Maybe for Christmas but I wouldn't even bank on that. Considering how much of an uproar has been made across all regions I would have expected the update implemented already.

It's sad to say that R/E/M are still for now useless or a stop gap for DDs.

[Vyvian]

What about the description under that? "Works on Alliance members outside party"

Just these 2 points alone makes this Mythic weapon worth getting.
Regarding misleading statements, this is probably huge. Posting information this way will cause people to draw 1 of 2 incorrect conclusions.

First, that you cannot normally use Divine Veil on any party but your own. Second, it will make people somehow draw an inaccurate conclusion that you get super aoe that breaks party limits and hits the entire alliance. Neither statement is accurate. A level 50 WHM with nothing special can divine seal, and status fix any party outside of their own (even those NOT in alliance), and it will aoe that target's whole party if they are in range. Also, having yagrush doesn't allow the spell to break the party aoe limits. It's also additionally misleading because people will draw a conclusion that they can somehow erase an entire alliance, which isn't possible because you can't erase outside of your own party.

[Daemon]

Regarding misleading statements, this is probably huge. Posting information this way will cause people to draw 1 of 2 incorrect conclusions.

First, that you cannot normally use Divine Veil on any party but your own. Second, it will make people somehow draw an inaccurate conclusion that you get super aoe that breaks party limits and hits the entire alliance. Neither statement is accurate. A level 50 WHM with nothing special can divine seal, and status fix any party outside of their own (even those NOT in alliance), and it will aoe that target's whole party if they are in range. Also, having yagrush doesn't allow the spell to break the party aoe limits. It's also additionally misleading because people will draw a conclusion that they can somehow erase an entire alliance, which isn't possible because you can't erase outside of your own party.

Yes Divine seal is limited to only party. But the weapon itself is different.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18993/yagrush
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Yagrush_(95)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=12349

Unless SE changed it? Then I would have assumed all other websites and posts would have corrected the info. However It would be helpful if someone could add the information here to clarify this.

[Daemon]

Advocating fulltiming one staff on a mage job is nonsense though. At least if you're serious about a job and want to maximize the effect of your spells as well as being as efficient as possible. Hvergelmir will do nothing for your spells, or make you cast faster or lower your recast timer. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Equipping it and using an icarus wing to regain mp in an oshit situation is an option, I'll give you that. It's not one I'd use myself (never been necessary), nor would I recommend making the staff for that reason alone. But if you already have the staff or want to make one anyway, sure, nothing wrong with keeping a wing in your inventory if you have room for it.

Also sorry to bring this back up however I have to clear this up between you and me and the rest of the people who have been reading our debate.

Hvelgamir and using TP to use the Weaponskill Myrkr is the same as DD equipping a weapon and not switching to other weapons because of TP correct?

When I said I equipped it full time, I did not intend to carelessly say that I mean I wear this the entire time. If you go back and read some of my quick replies during the debate there is evidence that I said unless Im switching over for Embrava.

What i really meant is that because Scholar regain TP from adloquium, this is the reason why I have to equip hvelgamir full time. And to clear things up I mean full time during the TP regain process.

And because I never DD as a mage class. I heavily relied on Adloquium.

Im not here to continue our debate, I just wanted to clear that up before I ended my post.

[Nebo]

It doesn't matter what example I used. It's the fact that people are misleading others to believe that REM is absolutely useless therefore encouraging others not to dedicate time into getting these or other equipment out there in other contents when they are still relevant and needed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thank you for that.

I don't know man...I'm still trying to figure out if you are really serious with all of this bullsh*t.

At this point, I think you have to be either Trolling HARD (Kudos), oblivious to reality, or a member of the dev team (synonymous with "oblivious to reality").

[Asymptotic]

Adloquium allows you to use Myrkr once every 300 seconds for 20% of your MP, at the cost of the spell being cast 1.67 times (-75mp) or Perpetunce'd (-45mp). Assume you have 1500 MP in a Myrkr set, you recover 300 MP per WS, so we gained 255MP if we used Perpetuance.

So Myrkr is worth 0.85 MP/second and idling in Owleyes/Genbu's or Terra's/Oneiros is worth 1 MP/second. And none of this matters anyway because if SCH is healing then it will have MP support via COR or BRD, or it's a Regen V mule / perpetuance haste mule, or you're killing EPs and you're not running out of MP anyway and you might as well be meleeing so you don't get bored. If SCH is not healing, then SCH is kiting a turtle in Legion or idling in Apamajas II + Stun gear and spamming Stun every 5 seconds and not running out of MP.

Since Myrkr scales lineraly it's never worth more than 0.85/second when relying on perpetuanced Adloquium with 1500 MP. You could maintain Adloquium and idle Chrysopeia Torque (drains 1 TP/tic for 1 MP/tic) for a better MP return than Myrkr and still have the freedom to change staves for increased cure potency, magic accuracy, potency, etc on your spells or -20% PDT. If you drop perpetuance because SCH has a million better things to do than use it on Perpetuance Adloquium, then you need 1875 MP before it's even with a refresh Idle. (SCH also has the option of Numen Staff + Oneiros grip for 2 MP/tic in the weapon/sub slots, but that's a bit more situational)

In other words, you're an uneducated player and you should go read up on game mechanics before you expect anyone to take you seriously.

[Nebo]

Hvelgamir and using TP to use the Weaponskill Myrkr is the same as DD equipping a weapon and not switching to other weapons because of TP correct?

Incorrect.

1. A mage is not a DD.
2. Unlike a DD, a Mage does not need TP to perform its role effectively.
3. A mage needs to constantly swap weapons to perform its role effectively, so it should not have TP if performing said role effectively.

IF SE wanted mages to use TP as a part of their everyday life, this is a serious design flaw.

[Riggs]

People are saying form your own party and kill nm's or plasma farm as if its the easiest thing in the world, many of these nm's require a certain strag to win, not been invited to and nm win most of us have no idea what that is or even where mobs spawn or how to pop them.
Secondly not anyone can just go plasma farm, from what i have picked up so far you need 100k bayld, fame level 2, 3 better and complete a quest, then use your 100k bayld to buy a 1 time use ki to enter a wildskeeper skirmish or some thing like that, defeat a nm that takes dozens of people and if you fail you just lost your 100k bayld but if you win you get a different ki that allows you enter a fractur to farm plasma.

I think i got most of that right, but if anyone know better please advise, also do you then need to buy anything to enter the fractur or can you just enter as often as you like free?.

I spent last weekend getting fame and farming the 100k bayld and doing the quest but i'm a bit afraid of buying the 100k ki and then looseing it as i don't know what to do

[Slaxx]

You got very little of that right. Basic research on the game wikis would show you what you need to know.

If you don't know where the mobs spawn or how to beat them, look it up. This shit's been out for a while, the strategies are out there.

Yes anyone can "just go plasm farm". To initiate the run there are requirements, but anybody (95+) can enter.

I cannot emphasize this enough for every aspect of this game - RESEARCH. If you're too lazy to go look up the basic information on how to accomplish your goals and instead expect other people to do even that modest amount of work for you how can you expect to ever get anything done?

[Demon6324236]

People are saying form your own party and kill nm's or plasma farm as if its the easiest thing in the world, many of these nm's require a certain strag to win, not been invited to and nm win most of us have no idea what that is or even where mobs spawn or how to pop them.Searching in game, experimentation, or read strats online from sites like BG, AH.com forums, here if you ask people, and various other sources. Everyone learns from 1 of these 3 things, no one has the information handed to them, if you expect everyone to make parties for you how do you expect them to have this information themselves? They do not simply know it, they have to learn it, and these are the 3 most common ways of learning that information.


Secondly not anyone can just go plasma farmThis is incorrect.


from what i have picked up so far you need 100k bayld, fame level 2, 3 better and complete a quest, then use your 100k bayld to buy a 1 time use ki to enter a wildskeeper skirmish or some thing like that, defeat a nm that takes dozens of people and if you fail you just lost your 100k bayld but if you win you get a different ki that allows you enter a fractur to farm plasma.This is to be the one to take you in, that is all, unless you are the person taking the party in you need nothing. I have never once done a Wildskeeper Reive, not once, but I can make a Plasm party. All you need to do if you lack the KI is to shout 1 simple thing, which I can almost assure you, will get some tells in return. "I will make a Plasm Farm if someone will turn my rock into a KI to enter, I can not." That's it, that's all you have to do, there are tons of people wanting a party, if you shout that, chances are, someone, somewhere, bored, doing nothing, will reply back and tell you they can make it, then you buy the rock from the AH, farm it, or ask them to buy it and give them Airlixirs in return equal to the total price of the rock(if its 200k and Airlixirs are 40k give them the first 5 that drop for instance), then your done. Now you have someone in your party with the KI to enter, and you can form the party in which to do a Plasm Farm, you do not in fact need this KI personally, only 1 member of the entire alliance, any job, any person, and you can do it.


I think i got most of that right, but if anyone know better please advise, also do you then need to buy anything to enter the fractur or can you just enter as often as you like free?.You need a rock from the area you want to enter, I cant remember the exact names, they are similar to the name of the rocks to pop the NMs, easy to find in misc. as they are labeled by tiers, I/II/III/IV/V.


I spent last weekend getting fame and farming the 100k bayld and doing the quest but i'm a bit afraid of buying the 100k ki and then looseing it as i don't know what to doWait till the 9th when the update hits, prices will go down, then when you see someone shouting for a WK Reive, or you can get help with a strat on how to make a party for one, do it, and you should be fine. You need a WK win for the area you plan to farm, which the best or at least most common of which is Morimar, so I would say take down the T-Rex.

[Glamdring]

@OP this is my 1st post on this thread and no, as yet I've not readl all 200+ so I appologize if I'm rehashing stuff that has already been said.

First, you seem to be taking alot of shit that is undeserved. Ok, so people take issue with your guide. People ALWAYS take issues with a guide, but here's the important part, where is their guide?! yep, I went there. You are trying to help. Now, it IS unusual for a guide to be posted in these forums, normally they are on a fansite somewhere, like wiki or even BG. The nice thing about guides on those sites, there are disclaimers and they actually post them, things like "this guide is one player's OPINION" and should not be taken as definitive, "this guide is a work in progress", etc. I'm sure YOU know that, but on these forums everyone speaks as if everyone's words are to be taken as some espoused gospel when they aren't. I never saw you holding your guide out as the Quran of Delve or anything like that, just your take on things that have worked that you have seen/done. At any rate, enough praise, on the the critique matters.

Not going to be many here. My big issue is that you might want to include more about how to build the strength to get in to the content quicker and be effective upon your arrival-and that is two different issues, since having a skirmish sword doesn't help all that much if your skill with sword is only 200 as an example. Trying to make that point on a gear/job/situation basis is at the least a daunting task (you would probably still be writing your analysis of every permutation about 3 years after they pull the plug on the last server), but you should be able to preface it all with some statement about how your guide is written with the assumption that players have a working knowledge of their job(s) and the options open to them; let's face it, if the player doesn't even have that basic knowledge he's just an invitation to wipe.

your guide is a bit whm-centric, so? you write what you know, apparently whm is your primary job, people shouldn't give you grief about that, they should be helping you with contributions about how job X can make their party/alliance contribution if you didn't cover it sufficiently instead of tearing you down for not doing it for them. so, if you did find helpful advice you may want to either link to it or quote it in your guide, maybe rewrite it to make it consistant.

undoubtedly there is alot more I might have to say on the subject since I haven't read every post in that thread either-the problem with forums is that it is very hard to maintain a chronology since posts are frequently relating to stuff pages before. That's one of the advantages of posting on Wiki or whatnot. So that's my general advice-take your product and post it somewhere that you have control over the text, and then link to it here. And if it is still a work in progress as you learn/do more then please supplement it to keep it up. Guides are helpful to quite a few players and it's a damn shame when the content gets lost in the commentary. Just don't forget to act on the good advice you are given. I wrote a guide myself once, and my big regret was the lack of useful commentary I received so I could address what people felt was important, it left me to guess at what content to address and I had to use only my own experience and the opinions I drew from those.

In closing, good luck man, trying to help is almost always better than doing nothing.

[Daemon]

Adloquium allows you to use Myrkr once every 300 seconds for 20% of your MP, at the cost of the spell being cast 1.67 times (-75mp) or Perpetunce'd (-45mp). Assume you have 1500 MP in a Myrkr set, you recover 300 MP per WS, so we gained 255MP if we used Perpetuance.

So Myrkr is worth 0.85 MP/second and idling in Owleyes/Genbu's or Terra's/Oneiros is worth 1 MP/second. And none of this matters anyway because if SCH is healing then it will have MP support via COR or BRD, or it's a Regen V mule / perpetuance haste mule, or you're killing EPs and you're not running out of MP anyway and you might as well be meleeing so you don't get bored. If SCH is not healing, then SCH is kiting a turtle in Legion or idling in Apamajas II + Stun gear and spamming Stun every 5 seconds and not running out of MP.

Since Myrkr scales lineraly it's never worth more than 0.85/second when relying on perpetuanced Adloquium with 1500 MP. You could maintain Adloquium and idle Chrysopeia Torque (drains 1 TP/tic for 1 MP/tic) for a better MP return than Myrkr and still have the freedom to change staves for increased cure potency, magic accuracy, potency, etc on your spells or -20% PDT. If you drop perpetuance because SCH has a million better things to do than use it on Perpetuance Adloquium, then you need 1875 MP before it's even with a refresh Idle. (SCH also has the option of Numen Staff + Oneiros grip for 2 MP/tic in the weapon/sub slots, but that's a bit more situational)

In other words, you're an uneducated player and you should go read up on game mechanics before you expect anyone to take you seriously.

Honestly, this is the reason why I don't want to play FFXI anymore. Haven't been on the game from reading posts like these.

You need to realize that not everyone is going to play the same build as you and I don't care whether or not you have a brain and know how to do math better than me or know statistics and mechanics.

I did not come to here to "Give Pro Advice"

I came to show others that people like you are the reason why people are suffering in game and thank you for criticizing me because you just gave me a reason to quit and move on to do something better than hang around and deal with negative people like you.

And for those who have been nice. Wish there were more people like you. Then maybe there would be a bigger community, and maybe people would be more helpful.

[Slaxx]

So you're giving bad advice, he calls you out on it (including backing up his position with math) and he's the bad guy?

You are why we can't have nice things.

Could he have been more polite about it? maybe, but given your track record in this thread, and others it, can be pretty easy to lose one's temper talking to you.

You can play the game however you like, no one is telling you differently. When you come to a forum and start spreading misinformation and giving bad advice expect to be corrected. When you get defensive and insulting expect to be insulted in return.

[Daemon]

So you're giving bad advice, he calls you out on it (including backing up his position with math) and he's the bad guy?

You are why we can't have nice things.

Could he have been more polite about it? maybe, but given your track record in this thread, and others it, can be pretty easy to lose one's temper talking to you.

You can play the game however you like, no one is telling you differently. When you come to a forum and start spreading misinformation and giving bad advice expect to be corrected. When you get defensive and insulting expect to be insulted in return.

I did not come here to give pro advice. People asked me whats my build was. Bid difference. Asking me how I play with Hvelgamir, and I explained how. Telling others that its the very best "NEVER DID I SAY THAT"

I just said its a great item and has its uses. And it only took a couple of weeks to get one.

And the point I wanted to show everyone with that. Everyone in game is not on the same level as others. Does not have the same gear as everybody who is already at the top.

And it's because you people "assume" that everyone has the very high end items. You are treating people with disrespect by acting like we all should be with all of the best.

If anything, My guide was offering tips on how they can reach closer to some you who "ARE THE BEST"

Never did I say "I AM THE BEST"

And you all just gave proof of why many of the new, returning players are suffering from your actions. Now I see why people assume high level players are elitist.

Because rather understanding that some of us could not find people to help play Legion, NNI, Salvage and whatever other content.

Rather than helping others. You choose to criticize and call people out for not being on your level.

And you are only advising others to skip a good portion of the game expecting everyone to know the same as you and be the same as you.

And saying "You can play the game however you like" does not mean anything after you criticize someone."

[Slaxx]

You are not on my server.

How you play has no relevance to me whatsoever.

My fear is that someone from my server that I might one day have to depend on will see you advice and think it is the best way to go (and you've posted long and hard about how "acceptable" it is).

Calling me an elitist shows your clear lack of understanding of what that term means.

Am I good? Yes

Am I better than average? I like to think so.

Am I the best? Hell no, I doubt I'm even in the top 10% of DRGs on my server.

I do, however, know what my shortcomings are and continually strive to eliminate them. I expect the same from the people I play with. Not to be the best, but to continually strive to get better. If that makes me elitist I'm proud of that title.

As far a new/returning players. None are suffering from my actions. We have several in my LS. I'm not going to hold there hand through every step of the game but if they have read up on something and still don't get some part of it I'm more than willing to help them get it.

PS: You did come here (the OF) to give pro advice. You created a whole thread for it. I actually agree with quite a few things you say in there and the ones I disagree with are a matter of opinion not mathematical fact. I find some of your attitude in that thread to be condescending and dickish but that's (again) a matter of opinion.

[Daemon]

Advising people to skip everything because you assume it's irrelevant does not teach people how to learn the equipment and practice their skills effectively. Not everyone will know how to be "PRO SKILL AS YOU" if they don't go out there and hunt for the items and practice their skill fighting bosses in places like VW, Legion, PW if you continue to advise them it's worthless.

And telling people "NOT TO EARN REM" teaches players not to be responsible, Set Goals for themselves and train how to complete and achieve difficult objectives and earn harder rewards.

[Daemon]

You are not on my server.

How you play has no relevance to me whatsoever.

My fear is that someone from my server that I might one day have to depend on will see you advice and think it is the best way to go (and you've posted long and hard about how "acceptable" it is).

Calling me an elitist shows your clear lack of understanding of what that term means.

Am I good? Yes

Am I better than average? I like to think so.

Am I the best? Hell no, I doubt I'm even in the top 10% of DRGs on my server.

I do, however, know what my shortcomings are and continually strive to eliminate them. I expect the same from the people I play with. Not to be the best, but to continually strive to get better. If that makes me elitist I'm proud of that title.

As far a new/returning players. None are suffering from my actions. We have several in my LS. I'm not going to hold there hand through every step of the game but if they have read up on something and still don't get some part of it I'm more than willing to help them get it.

PS: You did come here (the OF) to give pro advice. You created a whole thread for it. I actually agree with quite a few things you say in there and the ones I disagree with are a matter of opinion not mathematical fact. I find some of your attitude in that thread to be condescending and dickish but that's (again) a matter of opinion.

And I have to be as you call it "Dickish" because dealing with people's attitude like you. And seriously. "Learn how to read properly" never did I call you Elitist, I said "Now I see why some players assume" high level players are elitist.

Again

BIG DIFFERENCE

When you don't read the full conversation and skip parts and then jump into a conversation to make Nasty comments without properly knowing what the discussion is about "Your actions lead to misunderstanding the person who is talking."

And it makes no difference now trying to explain yourself.

[Slaxx]

Please find a post where I have advised people to skip things because they are irrelevant (besides leveling, XP parties have always been irrelevant to learning a job. Please start that bullshit argument again, that's all this thread needs to go full retard.). I am fully aware that nearly every post-75 event in the game offers situational gear (which is what nearly every piece of gear in the game is) for nearly every job. I fully support tackling lower tier content before higher content. I'm trying to push my LS into doing Legion as a prep for Delve MB runs (as a group we've never done Legion, and while the strategies are certainly different it is an opportunity to practice BRD/COR rotations and Stun rotations in a high pressure, time constricted environment).

As far as players who haven't "earned" an E/R/M weapon not being responsible - what the hell does that even mean? I (and many others) are perfectly capable of setting long term goals for myself and accomplishing them. How do you train to "earn" an E/R/M? Does it mean less if you earn gil in other ways and buy what you need or does it only count if you earn every piece of currency (or alexandrite, or w/e you empy upgrade items are) yourself? Do you then have to get every ADL drop from only ADLs you fight (or PW drops, or w/e your empy item is)?

Condescending and dickish.

PS: Feel free to continue to edit your posts and add new points as you do. I've pointed out before it makes you look like an amateur but you continue to do it. Last time your excuse was you were spinning and had to change records, what is it this time?

ProTip: If you don't have the time to post it can wait until you finish whatever it is your doing so you can express everything you want to express at once. Otherwise either make another post, or just stop posting.

[Daemon]

Please find a post where I have advised people to skip things because they are irrelevant (besides leveling, XP parties have always been irrelevant to learning a job. Please start that bullshit argument again, that's all this thread needs to go full retard.). I am fully aware that nearly every post-75 event in the game offers situational gear (which is what nearly every piece of gear in the game is) for nearly every job. I fully support tackling lower tier content before higher content. I'm trying to push my LS into doing Legion as a prep for Delve MB runs (as a group we've never done Legion, and while the strategies are certainly different it is an opportunity to practice BRD/COR rotations and Stun rotations in a high pressure, time constricted environment).

As far as players who haven't "earned" an E/R/M weapon not being responsible - what the hell does that even mean? I (and many others) are perfectly capable of setting long term goals for myself and accomplishing them. How do you train to "earn" an E/R/M? Does it mean less if you earn gil in other ways and buy what you need or does it only count if you earn every piece of currency (or alexandrite, or w/e you empy upgrade items are) yourself? Do you then have to get every ADL drop from only ADLs you fight (or PW drops, or w/e your empy item is)?

Condescending and dickish.

PS: Feel free to continue to edit your posts and add new points as you do. I've pointed out before it makes you look like an amateur but you continue to do it. Last time your excuse was you were spinning and had to change records, what is it this time?

ProTip: If you don't have the time to post it can wait until you finish whatever it is your doing so you can express everything you want to express at once. Otherwise either make another post, or just stop posting.

Hypocritical Don't you think? You are calling me "Dickish" and continue to disrespect me. Amateur? Well I never called you names, judged you, treated you the way you've been treating me. And yes I have to edit my posts because I'm not on computer right now.

[Sparthos]

Drop your ego.

You were proven wrong on a topic and while you have the right spirit regarding helping others, you arent entitled to your own facts. If you feel so strongly about something either use math or provide data to support your arguments. Doing either isnt elitist, it simply removes opinion and replaces it with a universally understood medium of communication.

The reason people consider the OF to be complete garbage that circles the toilet bowl is because opinion is presented as fact and criticism is taken as personal attack. I personally dont care about whatpeople do on their free XI time but when someone posts erroneus facts you should be peer reviewed to refine what is churned out,

[Daemon]

Drop your ego.

You were proven wrong on a topic and while you have the right spirit regarding helping others, you arent entitled to your own facts. If you feel so strongly about something either use math or provide data to support your arguments. Doing either isnt elitist, it simply removes opinion and replaces it with a universally understood medium of communication.

The reason people consider the OF to be complete garbage that circles the toilet bowl is because opinion is presented as fact and criticism is taken as personal attack. I personally dont care about whatpeople do on their free XI time but when someone posts erroneus facts you should be peer reviewed to refine what is churned out,

I've been trying to help others. What have you been doing? And had you even read my posts you'd see that. Skipping parts and making assumptions without knowing the reasons and then feeling the need of pointing me out on error as if you are far more superior only shows that no one can have an opinion.

Drop your attitude

And I have no other need to continue wasting my time responding to negative posts. If you want to continue being self absorbed in your superiorness you are showing everyone exactly the reason why I brought up this topic. Enjoy your FFXI because I no longer will be here. Way too many people with bad attitudes and definitely not enough people helping others.

[Slaxx]

I had a fairly long post praising Sparthos for addressing you with the respect you don't deserve but I accidentally refreshed the page and lost it.

Instead I will just say enjoy whatever you do in the future, you won't be missed.

[Daemon]

And by the way. Here is a fact for you negative people out there. Had "SE NOT ANNOUNCE UPGRADES FOR REM."

Then you could criticize me about how worthless they are.

But telling others "IT'S WORTHLESS DON'T EVEN BOTHER WASTING YOUR TIME"

I can't wait to see the reactions of others if the upgrades come out to be so awesome that all those people you told NOT to work on one will be left dissapointed because they did not have it ready by the time the update happens.

And for those of you doubting that SE will update them.

Had not a huge portion of the server complain and threaten to rage quit to the point devs had to step in and respond. Then I could follow you on your doubts.

But go ahead and encourage others how worthless it is to set goals for themselves.

[Karah]

Campers, it's a little late for the warning, but you're going to need your rubber booties. It's piling up in here.

The last thing I want to do is contribute to this thread anymore... I mean come on. This guy is just talking to hear his own voice. Replying to every single post, multi-posting etc. Just let it go.

There is a clear break down in fundamental understanding going on in here and 22 pages is 21 too many.

[Vil]

I don't know about you, but I cannot in good faith suggest friend spend millions of gil on something that may see a slight boost, or no boost at all. That's just it: we don't know. We can't predict Matsui's pattern of content, except that he has a lot of fixing to do. They probably don't even know where to begin.

I see both sides of the argument, and basically what it all boils down to is: how people choose to spend their time.

The "elitist" camp chooses to use it efficiently, and for them, the progression at this pace is their idea of fun. there are some players in that camp that don't have all the time in the world to play, so 3 hours or so with a strategy that has been proven to work is the most ideal for them.

then you have your camp, which likes to do things outside the box, try new things. For you, that is how to choose to spend your time.

There is no right or wrong way to play, and yelling at the others' camp for not spending their time like you is a bit unfair. You can't really generalize these people into all being elitist pricks who are only out for themselves. Progression is their fun, trial-and-error is yours. Neither are wrong, just different.

Ultimately, this is when two of the worst things in XI collide: poor content design, and the huge time sink this game has always been.

[Slaxx]

SE has not in fact announced upgrades to R/E/M. They have announced that are under consideration and development but are certainly not part of any current update map. Please stick with the "facts", SMNs were promised 2 new avatars, new "2-hour" abilities have been in development for a year (? longer?). Until it has been announced that they are being upgraded in a certain update (with a firm date) the R/E/M upgrade is not a "fact".

Please note, I am not saying that there will not be R/E/M upgrades. I am saying that they are not a "fact".

And even once those upgrades are announced (if they are) who are you to say they will be better than Delve weapons? The one example they have showed us was clearly said to be an example, not to be taken as a finished product. If they are better than Delve weapons will they be better than whatever comes after Delve weapons? I find it hard to believe that items and gear introduced in the first month of this expansion will be the best it has to offer (that's an opinion in case you didn't notice, I'm not spewing "facts").

[Daemon]

I don't know about you, but I cannot in good faith suggest friend spend millions of gil on something that may see a slight boost, or no boost at all. That's just it: we don't know. We can't predict Matsui's pattern of content, except that he has a lot of fixing to do. They probably don't even know where to begin.

I see both sides of the argument, and basically what it all boils down to is: how people choose to spend their time.

The "elitist" camp chooses to use it efficiently, and for them, the progression at this pace is their idea of fun. there are some players in that camp that don't have all the time in the world to play, so 3 hours or so with a strategy that has been proven to work is the most ideal for them.

then you have your camp, which likes to do things outside the box, try new things. For you, that is how to choose to spend your time.

There is no right or wrong way to play, and yelling at the others' camp for not spending their time like you is a bit unfair. You can't really generalize these people into all being elitist pricks who are only out for themselves. Progression is their fun, trial-and-error is yours. Neither are wrong, just different.

Ultimately, this is when two of the worst things in XI collide: poor content design, and the huge time sink this game has always been.

See I can show respect to you because instead of sending me a personal attack criticizing me. You pointed out your opinion respectfully.

The bad thing about reading and not actually talking in person is that words on screen could mean a million things and people can take it the wrong way. Because everyone can look at words and take the meaning differently.

My intention was to help people. Encourage others to enjoy the game. One detail I should have posted on the first page was that my topic was only an opinion and nothing is fact.

Even posting about items that I believe are not worthless was just my opinion.
I know not everyone will agree with me, however we all have different point of views.

It does not matter anymore to me as I tried my best to be helpful but instead rather than see the bright side of my reasons, people took it for the wrong and it's best for me to move on and do something else.

Again those of you who have been nice, understanding, and helpful. It's you who keep the community together. And people have a great time doing things when you help others. Not only did I have a great experience and awesome memories. I am thankful to those who have been kind and supportive, understanding and patient. Will miss you and take care.

[Asymptotic]

So wait, you say I'm spreading misinformation, I back up my claim mathematically, and ... I'm the bad guy for proving you wrong?

Me proving you wrong drove you to quit? Cool.

[Slaxx]

Haven't you noticed that's how the OF works?

If you disagree with me you're attacking me.

If you prove I'm wrong using math you're an elitist.

If you point out that my opinion is not, in fact, fact then you're advocating skipping everything pre-Delve.

There's a disconnect somewhere but I'm not sure where it is.

[Qeepel]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to remind everyone to please refrain from making inflammatory comments towards others and off topic discussions. Such language and actions is considered a violation of the forum guidelines, and can result in the termination of your account.

As the thread has become off topic with such posts, the thread will now be closed.

-SQUARE ENIX MODERATOR