Sange

[Washburn]

We need a sange fix

The ability is currently the most useless of all job abilities in the game, even worse than scavenge. For one, using it, assuming you found some throwing weapons that worked with it, takes away shadows, which means the only time you can use it is when you're using innin and being a DD.

Secondly, of the stackable throwing weapons available, the damage from sange is trash.

I'm suggesting an overhaul, or a replacement of sange with some other ability.

As far as a replacement ability, I would suggest some sort of evasion enhancment, or possible utsusemi enhancment that either adds another shadow, or works like an area of effect for party members, or possibly something that cuts the recast timer in half.

[Orenwald]

ummm yeaaah.... no... another reduction to the utsusemi timer would be broken. I would be in favor of them changing sange though. It is pretty worthless

[Mirage]

Wouldn't adding good, cost efficient throwing weapons sort it out? :p
I mean, isn't it basically 4 (or 5?) ranged attacks in one?

[Mojo]

6, assuming you have Iga Kyahan +2

[Washburn]

Or make it so you throw the remaining shadows rather than consuming throwables. Or make it so it puts an unlimited shot effect on your throwing piece

[Eateroffoods]

I agree with washburn there, it never made much sense to me that Sange would take both shadows and ammo. I mean if your going to consume both atleast give it a range attack power boost per shadow.

[ThaiChi]

Hm.... Unlimited shot on Nokizaru Shuriken huh? I like it.

[Orenwald]

if it consumed only shadows, it'd be pretty nice... and hella fun... :D

[Rosalie]

I would say making shuriken-type throwing weapons easier to obtain would be what is necessary to make Sange viable. (I merited it to 4 and got the :san wheel anyways, but then pretty much all NIN cat2 merits are lol.)

[Washburn]

Yeah pretty much. the perk of having the unlimited shot effect would be, that you could continue to use a Qirmiz Tathlum. Sange along isnt reason enough to not have one... and the benefit of it not using ammo at all is obviously if you're using an Ungur Boomerang (since it's not usable with sange)

[wish12oz]

Sange should just be removed, as well as san elemental nukes, theyre both pretty useless. Let us merit dual weild or something useful.

[Washburn]

I agree in some sense, San spells just need a MAB boost, or if they would have made them the yellow triggers instead of Ni, it would have given them SOME use... i've always thought if they gave like a +50 boost to ninja tool expertise it would be somewhat worth it, but, it has no REAL need.

Sange has potential if they tweak it right. An unlimited shot effect + provoke effect or something would be pretty cool... or DEF+ since you're losing shadows...or possibly stoneskin.

[Darwena]

I had fun with sange back in time... when my Throwing skill was capped using my ranged setup and throwing Lv48 Shuriken at mob. Don't remember the DMG output but was pretty much decent to keep that one until Abyssea came out.

I used to be Shuriken happy and kinda had lot of fun with until no one put shuriken on AH anymore. Sure if you use cheap ammo (low lv shuriken, dart...) dont have any throwing skill and no equipement for Ranged ACC & ATTCK, Sange would like gimped.

Soon I get my smithing high enough for making my own Shuriken, i will probably remove San spell and go back on Sange.

;)

[xSylarx]

I say get rid of it it entirely, or give us some thing that would be closer the being useful. Like instead of ranged make it wipe your shadows to add extra attack to your next weapon skill. Sound uber broken right but out side of abyssea it would be balanced. I guess to make it more far make it elemental, but blade Hi 9 hit jeeez sus epic. Although it would be a every 15 min fully merited every 5 min so it wouldn't be to broken.

[Akujima]

#1 NIN has A- in throwing if any of you didnt know that
#2 The problem here is lack of available, affordable high dmg throwing shuriken
#3 I've done 2500 Sange's in Abyss with my Ranged equip on (Manji Shuriken)
#4 Sange is NOT useless

[Akujima]

This is foolish, Sange be removed?... lol...
Does anyone even realize that actual accounts of Ninja that infiltrated a stronghold, BARELY ever engaged in Katana vs Katana combat (doing so with a real Samurai was extremely unwise) but rather used Poison darts, shuriken and traps WAY more than ever using Katana... and you want Sange to be removed ok... and I guess the A- in throwing should just be useless... I see.

Well that makes perfect sense, coming from the almighty North Americans

SO IT SHALL BE DONE!

[wish12oz]

Well that makes perfect sense, coming from the almighty North Americans


So you're racist against north americans now?

[Akujima]

So you're racist against north americans now?

If you live there but didn't notice, NA is not a single race, but rather a culture of different races. Truth be told is that the major drive, and what fuels its culture is industry and marketing (you can accept this as either negative or positive, depending on your perception). We can get a full in depth history lesson here, or accept that with money and power comes influence, the influence to shape and change things as those who posses it, pleases them.

FF is a JRPG, and XI is based off it of course. Japan has its own culture, and every right to shape it how they please. Of course here we are, on a forum based on influence (the power to shape the game based on our demands) driven by what?

Well wish12oz, if you think that I'm flaming you, or offending you, just know that I use this post as an example of all the power hungry players, who just wish to be able to solo endgame bosses, run around flashing their "uber" gear so that other less fortunates can gawk and awe at the local online celebrity.

In so doing strip away from companionship and cooperation, team based battle tactics and job strategy, all so that the group NIN can swing EVEN FASTER with their newly added Dual Wield+10 merit. Congratulations, you killed the mob before the DRK could even unsheath his scythe.

I for one, vote to keep what really counts (and imo, has slowly been declining since the implementation of Abyssea), which is the personality and character that made FFXI the classic it is. Make each job unique, keep it that way, and avoid this power hungry attitude, that in the end only causes conflict between eachother, about how some guy sucks because he cant get that extra 200 dmg in during NM's.

So rather than devoiding FF anymore of style and challenge. Keep Sange, get in more shurikens, and keep the jobs unique.

Otherwise, oh yea, if you get rid of Sange, might as well not let DRK be able to cast black magic, since DRK aint as good as a BLM, thats for sure... oh yea and THF should lose Marksmanship, since they aint as good as a RNG... oh yea and PLDs should lose white magic... and the list goes on. (get the picture yet?)

[wish12oz]

I like when people post a wall of text, and don't actually say anything, you would make a good politician.
At no point did I say "North American" was a race, I said you were racist against a continent of people, which you apparently are, I didn't see you deny it anywhere. So keep trying hater, maybe one day you can swing your sword as fast as mine.

ALSO: lolwholetsdarkknightsfightanything!?

[Washburn]

Please keep your racist views out of my NA pro-sange thread.

[saevel]

I agree that they should make it so Sange doesn't use ammo. That or make super cheap easy to craft / obtain throwing stars that stack to 99 and can be bundled.

[Washburn]

It would also be nice if NIN could change from, say, Ungur Boomerang, to the throwing weapon, and back to the Ungur Boomerang without going to 0 TP. that way, if you DID find sufficiently reasonably prices ammo, which is currently impossible, you wouldnt be punished two-fold still. Currently it's a three-fold. b/c sange sucks, you lose TP for changing ranged, and you lose ammo when using sange, the 5 minute ability. So even if it had an unlimited shot effect to it, if youre /DNC, it would be dumb to even change ranged to your sange set (b/c you'd want a ranged acc/attk set i'm sure)

[Fyreus]

It really wouldn't hurt to have another ranged dps... we have so many mob babysitters and so only 5 of 18 are able to do over 200dmg from 15~

[wish12oz]

It really wouldn't hurt to have another ranged dps... we have so many mob babysitters and so only 5 of 18 are able to do over 200dmg from 15~

Except that throwing is done from next to the mob, not far away from it.

[Fyreus]

Except that throwing is done from next to the mob, not far away from it.

Did you misunderstand the part suggesting another ranged dps? Or are you trolling me? If i can throw from 16 which is outside aoe range must i sit next to the mob because another player said so?

[wish12oz]

Did you misunderstand the part suggesting another ranged dps? Or are you trolling me? If i can throw from 16 which is outside aoe range must i sit next to the mob because another player said so?

Throwing does terrible damage to start with, being really far outside the optimum range will drastically lower your damage, making it even more useless. It's game mechanics, not trolling.

EDIT: 16 isn't outside AoE range either, you will still get hit by some stuff.

[Fyreus]

Most aoe is around 15. When we consider throwing we understand know it will slow us down melee wise which is why a decent alternative is to adjust it to become something used as a worthwhile skill (ranged dps) and even though i havent used ranged attacks since like genbu in 04 i remember tp being very very low. Pair that with how mobs gain tp (player +3) from players then you have something to do while weakened or it needs to be tweaked to rng/pup rng/cor tp/ws standards as a real skill.

I don't know about anyone else but i can give up ~20 points of damage on throwing to gain a good range if i need to throw.

[Akujima]

I don't know about anyone else but i can give up ~20 points of damage on throwing to gain a good range if i need to throw.

Wish just has a talent for stating the obvious.

If the sweet spot for throwing is right next to the mob, then change it. If RNG sucks then fix it. Give it more ranged attack, speed up its firing rate. But it's probably just because inside Abyssea, with all those atma's and stat buffs that give melee jobs a godlike boost, that leaves RNG out to dry. Which is most likely the reason why Wish just wants to troll us and tell us the same thing over and over. I'm sure RNG is still half decent outside of Abyssea.

We already know throwing and ranged DPS sucks, that's the reason we're on here asking for a fix. We know throwing does terrible damage, we know that haste is so great and cool. We know this $#!% already.

So make the throwing sweet spot from afar, give more readily available shuriken, make Sange just a barrage type ability instead of having to lose shadows. And there you go, you have some initial burst damage at the start of a battle.

I never once said to completely nerf dual wield or a NIN's melee and re-hash NIN so that it's entirely a ranged DPS, but the rest of you seem to want to put words in my mouth, then call me stupid.

[Fyreus]

Personally i find rng to be a beast with the right items, doing 2k arching arrows every few seconds turns be into a mobile target. I would like SE to compensate via higher damage :3 same goes with sange... give it a 4x dmg multiplier and raise tp. Removing all shadows and wasting more ammo for like 35-50tp... really? Just allow us to whittle a mob while weakened while feeding very little tp atleast.

Another thing would be making a ranged item like a shuriken holder and allow us to store shuriken in the ammo slot and give it marksmandhip abilities but different names ( afterall gun = bow and archery ws are the same as the forementioned).

Weren't we told some years back that the game limitations didnt allow more ws to be added in regards to throwing? How many new things have we seen since? I say even make a JA with sub JA like dnc and call it a day.

[wish12oz]

EDIT: In case you missed it, here's why throwing is bad.
Manji Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

[Fyreus]

So... go play rng because i also like rng too? I can't play ninja and want fixes made to a class i enjoy?

How about i spell this out to you: W-E__A-R-E__I-N_A __T-H-R-E-A-D__W-H-E-R-E__W-E__A-L-R-E-A-D-Y__K-N-O-W__A-N-D__A-C-K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E__T-H-I-S__F-A-C-T. W-E__A-L-S-O__K-N-O-W__S-E__R-E-A-D-S__T-H-I-S__A-N-D__T-H-E-R-E-F-O-R-E__A-R-E__S-U-G-G-E-S-T-I-N-G__G-O-O-D__C-H-A-N-G-E-S__T-O__I-L-L__P-E-R-C-E-I-V-E-D__O-R__U-N-U-S-A-B-L-E__J-A. T-H-A-N-K__Y-O-U__C-A-P-T-A-I-N__O-B-V-I-O-U-S__F-O-R__L-E-T-T-I-N-G__U_S__K-N-O-W__J-U-S-T__W-H-A-T__W-E__S-A-I-D__A-N-D__K-N-E-W__A-N-D__R-E-P-O-S-T-I-N-G__I-T.

Also, why do you think i said:


it will slow us down melee wise
- slowing us down melee wise means less damage/tp correct?


it needs to be tweaked to rng/pup rng/cor tp/ws standards as a real skill.
- good thing i went a few hours into the past to make this quote come in line with your views so i wouldn't be wrong in the future.


Just allow us to whittle a mob while weakened while feeding very little tp atleast.
- Here i am offering a suggestion and you are again telling us our current throwing attack isn't as fast as haste. Maybe this comment was aimed at someone else? I didn't make a single claim supporting throwing over katana but i did make a statement stating that it needs to be brought up to rng/cor/pup/etc because they have skills (same context mind you) that accompany their actions.

I know i'm being super trolled and am passing time till work but... This is a thread where we are suggesting fixes to sange which will inevitably lead to changes needed to throwing. So far you've told us things we knew and we've informed you of things that you didn't know yet you go on to tell us stuff we already posted and put words in some peoples mouths allegedly.

If you have nothing to contribute and don't want to see people discuss job related issues on the SE forums, then why are you keeping up on this thread?

[Akujima]

- good thing i went a few hours into the past to make this quote come in line with your views so i wouldn't be wrong in the future.

I lol'd at this one.

Good stuff man *thumbs up*

[vixin]

SANGE SANGE improve sange :D