Item Levels

[Camate]

During the Test Server update on June 14th, we made it so that item levels are now displayed on items that have been added since Seekers of Adoulin.

I’d like to explain a bit more in detail about how this will work.

What are item levels?
As mentioned previously, as we move forward, player growth will occur through the procurement of equipment, instead of levels. (We are planning to have new merits, but from a level perspective players will not go above level 99.)

As such, there will be differences between the item stats that can be equipped at level 99, so we've arranged the "item level" system to display the strength of each item.
(Item levels for accessories will not be displayed.)

The level of the items you can obtain from content will become higher as the content level increases as this is demonstrated below:

<table width="450" border="0"> <tr> <td width="4%" align="center">119</td> <td width="4.5%" align="center">20</td> <td width="1%" style="border-style:none;"></td> <td width="7%" align="center">Delve (Boss Monsters)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">118</td> <td align="center">19</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">117</td> <td align="center">18</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">116</td> <td align="center">17</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">115</td> <td align="center">16</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">114</td> <td align="center">15</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">113</td> <td align="center">14</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Delve (NM Group 2）</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">112</td> <td align="center">13</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">111</td> <td align="center">12</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">110</td> <td align="center">11</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Delve (NM Group 1)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">109</td> <td align="center">10</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">108</td> <td align="center">9</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">107</td> <td align="center">8</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">106</td> <td align="center">7</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Wildskeeper Reives</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">105</td> <td align="center">6</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Skirmish</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">104</td> <td align="center">5</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td rowspan="5" align="center">Colonization/Lair Reives</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">103</td> <td align="center">4</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">102</td> <td align="center">3</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">101</td> <td align="center">2</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">100</td> <td align="center">1</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Item Level</td> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Content Level</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Up to April 2013</td> </tr></table>


Item level display
Item levels will be displayed on the very bottom of a piece of equipment.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/attachment.php?attachmentid=6929&d=1371210962&thumb=1
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/attachment.php?attachmentid=6930&d=1371210973&thumb=1

For equipment that can have enchantments or augments applied to it, the item level will be displayed as if the item were at its maximum value.

For example, if you had an item that could be augmented and it displays an item level of 113, augmenting it with the highest value possible would make that piece of equipment each its full potential at item level 113. (This rule is the same for both random augments and for Delve's rank type system.)


Displaying monster strength when "checking" them and the amount of experience points received
The strength of a monster that is displayed when using "check" and also the amount of experience points gained when defeating monsters will vary based on item level, not on your character's level. The fundamental rules will not change.

Based on the combination of the various equipment you are wearing and their item levels, your ultimate level will be tallied, and this is what will be referenced. However, accessory slots, grips, and items equipped in ammo that are classified as accessories will not have item levels and will not be referenced for this level.

The main reasons for switching to this is due to the fact that if we kept it the same as it is currently, regardless of how strong a monster is introduced the message displayed when you "check” would be inaccurate and we are aiming to change this. We are also aiming to make sure the amount of experience points gained from defeating enemies, as well as the pace in which they are obtained, do not become unbalanced.

Adoulin mission difficulty levels
Missions and quests will basically become unlocked through coalition assignments, and we plan on balancing it such that they can be undertaken with a single party, which has the strongest items at the time that can be purchased with Bayld.

[detlef]

Based on the combination of the various equipment you are wearing and their item levels, your ultimate level will be tallied, and this is what will be referenced. However, accessory slots, grips, and items equipped in ammo that are classified as accessories will not have item levels and will not be referenced for this level.

The main reasons for switching to this is due to the fact that if we kept it the same as it is currently, regardless of how strong a monster is introduced the message displayed when you "check” would be inaccurate and we are aiming to change this. We are also aiming to make sure the amount of experience points gained from defeating enemies, as well as the pace in which they are obtained, do not become unbalanced.Really? They are worried about us becoming powerful and obtaining too much experience points when all this gear requires us to be at max level to equip?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

We're talking about the same folks who give us this gear-based level mechanic but still throws slugs at us.

(Seriously, how will having that gear ripped off mid-battle affect the EXP rate?)

[Aarahs]

The main reasons for switching to this is due to the fact that if we kept it the same as it is currently, regardless of how strong a monster is introduced the message displayed when you "check” would be inaccurate and we are aiming to change this. We are also aiming to make sure the amount of experience points gained from defeating enemies, as well as the pace in which they are obtained, do not become unbalanced.


Unbalanced compared to Abyssea? Is there something we're missing here?

[FrankReynolds]

Can we get a website setting similar to the in game profanity filter so that I can curse at you guys when you do stuff like this and have it just show up as ?????? to people who don't want to see the offensive words?

[Zhronne]

I really hope I would have never saw the day when they introduced "item level" in FFXI as well... homogeneizing gear and everything else, sigh.
Why must they copy from other MMOs instead of keep doing things their own way as they did in the last 11 years?
Do they think people kept playing FFXI hoping one day someone would have come and made it like every other MMO, or because it was actually different from everything else?

Also the part about XP is so... unnecessary. Can't they just display the monster level? People already showed that this is possible with third party addons, they could do exactely the same instead than this complicated and appearently useless thing about XP.
Please explain to me who cares about XP these days?
Do I need the game to tell me if I'm ready for a certain monster or not? What if I go around with my idle/movementspeed gear and then swap to TP once I engage?

Really... it makes no sense. Stop changing what's working Matsui! Leave FFXI alone damnit :<

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Can't they just display the monster level?

I think the /check mechanic in Final Fantasy XIV lasted about two weeks before they flat-out started displaying the monster's level next to its name. I suspect the "just show me its real level" mechanic will be something they'll add to the new (PC-only) UI.

[Zhronne]

They cannot.
The client (your PC) needs to "ask" the server to know a target's level. You do this through the "check" command.
The check command returns the target level to your client, and then your client calculates the difference in level between YOUR level and the target level, and decides which of the possible messages to display.

This means that to know the level of a target you need to use the check command, cannot display it constantly like in other games.
This is already possible through third party addons.
If they really want to make a change they should do that instead of silly elitist stuff about your average item level and the target's level.

That's like one of the crappiest change I've heard in the last years.

[Sargent]

I think SE are completely oblivious to the part where people are gear swapping and have been for most of the game's existence. Item Levels just don't work for this reason, your level taking into account the gear you use is going to go up and down like a yo-yo due to this, the only piece of applicable equipment that melee's would use fulltime in these situations would be the weapon.

In addition to this, the item levels for melee gear have far surpassed that of other jobs (WHM, GEO, SMN I can see being examples). In relation to Summoner, the only relevant pieces of gear that they've added for the job since Adoulin's release are weapons, Bokwus Circlet, and Bokwus/Orvail Body.

In terms of melee gear, for some jobs (like SAM), there's minimal TP gear from Adoulin that is considered optimal, making your "Item Level" if you defeat the mob whilst in TP gear lower than when you defeat it in weapon skill gear (In terms of SAM, only the hand equipment from Adoulin is in any way the best piece in that slot at the moment barring weapons, the rest is beaten by AF3+2/Usu+1/Phorcys).

[FrankReynolds]

They cannot.
The client (your PC) needs to "ask" the server to know a target's level. You do this through the "check" command.
The check command returns the target level to your client, and then your client calculates the difference in level between YOUR level and the target level, and decides which of the possible messages to display.

This means that to know the level of a target you need to use the check command, cannot display it constantly like in other games.
This is already possible through third party addons.
If they really want to make a change they should do that instead of silly elitist stuff about your average item level and the target's level.

That's like one of the crappiest change I've heard in the last years.

The /check command is to find out the monster strength in relation to your own. They can easily just make it say "Tiny Mandragora - Level 5" right above a monsters head.

[Rwolf]

It's completely unnecessary as Abyssea already changed the nature of experience point gain. All this does is make it harder on any trials you want to complete as I'm assuming by this meaning you can potentially go to 0 exp gain if your weapon or gear is too high, even if it's a macro swap. And some trials don't have alternative locations, especially doing Relic+2 augmented in Dynamis. Also removes the fun of completing Fields of Valor/Grounds of Valor pages while skilling up, etc. because a piece of your gear might change your level to the point of too weak.

Just seems like a completely unnecessary change to me.

[Olor]

This is a terrible idea. Please stop worrying about experience points and spend time thinking about ways to make the game fun.

[Keyln]

It's completely unnecessary as Abyssea already changed the nature of experience point gain. All this does is make it harder on any trials you want to complete as I'm assuming by this meaning you can potentially go to 0 exp gain if your weapon or gear is too high, even if it's a macro swap. And some trials don't have alternative locations, especially doing Relic+2 augmented in Dynamis. Also removes the fun of completing Fields of Valor/Grounds of Valor pages while skilling up, etc. because a piece of your gear might change your level to the point of too weak.

Just seems like a completely unnecessary change to me.

A question here, but does it really matter in this case?

Right now, the only part of the game that requires high level gear is in Seekers. If you're at a point where you care about getting XP, then the solution is to where lower level gear.

[Raksha]

How about stop wasting time on retarded stuff and start fixing the crap that needs fixing.

Every man hour thats wasted on this could be spent revamping RMEs.

[SpankWustler]

I'd really prefer Item Level just be a way to show advancement visibly.

Having Item Level actually do anything when almost every single piece in FFXI is best used for a certain action or situation just seems incongruous to me.

[Alpheus]

If item level is gonna affect exp rates (again kinda redundant since u have to be at lvl cap to even wear them) just uncap the lvl 99 cap and stop trying to split the difference. Yes there will be some re balancing and such and maybe a call for more JAs and the like but honestly it seems we're getting all the downsides and none of the upsides of getting stronger. Which admittedly is very weird to say and even comprehend but you guys are doing a good job of making such a concept a reality.

Edit: I can see the only reason to do this would be so we don't use our super awesome super kewl leet gear to get all the merit points for the merits the dev team will implement at such a fast rate but..... well that's a very narrow of a concern to have to be honest.

[Demon6324236]

I know Matsui did not beat Maat till after he took lead if he even has beat him yet, but please tell me he at least gear swaps, because this idea... makes it sound very non-gear swap, and thus, a whole~ lot of players will get nothing from the /check changes except problems.

[Yinnyth]

This almost sounds to me like they're trying to make exp relevant again, and perhaps future merits will require inordinate amounts of exp. I'm curious to see how this screws over newbs though. Leeching abyssea has always been an option after level 30, but what happens to that when everyone you could possibly hope to leech off of is getting 0 exp per kill even after building kill chain?

And what about aggro? If we're going to start getting less and less exp from enemies, isn't it about time for level 61 enemies to stop aggroing us?

[Alpheus]

Sounds like you'll need to exp in Abyssea w/ anything from before Adoulin (pending on how penalized you are for having just a delve weapon and all pre aodulin gear in the rest of your slots as an example) which is a interesting way to dissuade people from roflstomping GoV pages to burn up friends or mules.

Which strikes me as dumb because then you'll force people who are down to help others, to have a separate load out of gear just to help others. Sounds a lot like having a bunch of level sync gear on hand >.>;

Edit: Granted I know I'm taking it to quite an extreme but, outside of that I fail to see what the Development team is trying to achieve here.

[Zhronne]

The /check command is to find out the monster strength in relation to your own. They can easily just make it say "Tiny Mandragora - Level 5" right above a monsters head.
Not sure this will work out.
I mean *of course* serverside there is data concerning monster level and a whole lot more of data.
The thing is that such information is *not* sent to our clients with the rest of the data that gets sent on communication packets, which means our clients will not be able to display monster level. It's not like (it's the case for several other info, for instance) it's part of the plenty information that DOES get sent but it's just not displayed.
Monster level just isn't sent.
The only moment when such info is sent to clients is when you use the check command, hence unless they change packet data (but in the past they already said they had no intention to do so for other things) that's not a kind of information that they'd be able to let us see just by flagging it as "viewable", they would have to change more core stuff for that and honestly I don't see it happening.

Changing the message while we check to a "The monsters looks to be level XX, it's a decent challenge!" is instead quite possible, and as a matter of fact you can already do that with third party addons, which implies it wouldn't take them more than 30 minutes of single person work to do that.

[Dazusu]

They cannot.

Ofcourse they can. They can tack that information into the monster array and the load packets when you run in range of a monster.

[Zhronne]

Yes but that would mean changing the amount and type of data concerning that packet, and they said in the past they have no intention to do that.
Altough I would agree with you if you were to say that such a statement doesn't really mean anything, given their lack of coherence...

I was just saying that if we assume for a moment that they truly, REALLY don't want to change packet data (maybe it's really an old and core-part of the system full of spaghetti uncommented code and they don't really want to mess with that?) then they have no way to achieve such a goal.

Either way I don't see the problem, why bothering with complicated (?) solutions when they could just make it viewable during /check and make everybody happy without changing the game "philosophy" of having to check a monster and without having to spend more than 30mins of human resources to do that, instead of wasting time in crappy systems like the one mentioned in the first post of this thread?

[Tamoa]

I think SE are completely oblivious to the part where people are gear swapping and have been for most of the game's existence.

This.



This is a terrible idea. Please stop worrying about experience points and spend time thinking about ways to make the game fun.

And this.



I know Matsui did not beat Maat till after he took lead if he even has beat him yet, but please tell me he at least gear swaps, because this idea... makes it sound very non-gear swap, and thus, a whole~ lot of players will get nothing from the /check changes except problems.

And this.



How about stop wasting time on retarded stuff and start fixing the crap that needs fixing.

Every man hour thats wasted on this could be spent revamping RMEs.

And most of all this!


This is a waste of time and effort, I don't care one bit about exp (does anybody?), and I certainly don't give a damn whether a monster checks "even match, high evasion and defense" or "tough, low evasion and defense".

[Kincard]

If they want to touch the check system at all, maybe they should consider making it actually useful. Half the playerbase doesn't even know what the messages about defense and evasion mean, and if you did it's still not only requires a bit of calculation to know what its saying, but it's still a highly imprecise measurement.


I'd really prefer Item Level just be a way to show advancement visibly.

This. What's the point of having item levels if they're just going to be functionally the same as a job level? You might as well have just increased the level cap. I get the need to have ilevel to give a general idea of what kind of strength the item was planned with, but having it actually affect the gameplay in a way like this is just unnecessary and annoying.

[kylani]

Unbalanced compared to Abyssea? Is there something we're missing here?

My thoughts exactly. Why now? This has been unbalanced for years.

[Secondplanet]

I fail to understand SE doing this other then to try to divide the player base even further from those who do large endgame events and those who don't. At least in the past the only difference was slightly more power and maybe some extra effects but now this is gonna make the difference between playerbase larger then ever.

I think this will hurt the game even more towards new players who want to join.

SE stop trying to make this game unappealing to the players to try to boose FF:XIV sales, that game sucks it will always suck and no matter how much of our money you take it won't change.

[Siviard]

SE stop trying to make this game unappealing to the players to try to boose FF:XIV sales, that game sucks it will always suck and no matter how much of our money you take it won't change.

But, you get NEW AVATARS on FFXIV! Isn't that what you wanted?

[Alahra]

If you guys are actually concerned about the rate of XP gain, you should probably go back and take a good, hard look at Abyssea and Grounds of Valor.

All this is going to do is make it difficult to complete XP-based Magian Trials, with Augmented Relic pieces suffering the most since Dynamis monsters are already on the lower end of the XP-curve at 99.

There's also the fact that most players learn about gear-swapping eventually, and most players tackling difficult content are expected to do so to perform well. Our effective level will be changing frequently as a result. There's not going to be any real benefit to this system when most of us only wear a few pieces of the newer gear. Older gear is still often optimal for different purposes, and the current design structure of "one size fits all" for new Adoulin gear suggests that this will continue. No Monk (for example) is ever going to wear Manibozho Gloves.

The development team needs to take a step back and think about how we actually play the game and reconcile that with how they seem to *want* us to play the game. There are some stark differences between these two things.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

All this is going to do is make it difficult to complete XP-based Magian Trials

There's no reason to start now.

[Masamune11]

Let's sum this up:

- Best available bayld gear is enough to complete all quests / missions
- Current highest item level is 120
- Item level will surpass level 120

Conclusion: Can we agree that it is highly unlikely that characters currently with the best delve gear would be able to defeat the final story-line boss (likely a couple years away)? I mean, if SE is going this item progression approach, then why would they allow players to be powerful enough to clear the story-line within two months of the expansions release? Thus, future bayld gear will have to be stronger than the best currently available gear. Otherwise we are being told that two years from now, they are going to release this story-line megaboss that is currently weaker than a delve boss.

What does this tell me?: I should sit and wait, not do delve, do daily coalitions tasks, play lots of FFXIV and not worry about endgame events until the story-line has been completed.

[Kristal]

I'm seeing several posts here that utterly miss the point of this change and it's consequences. :rolleyes: So put away your torches and pitchforks and pay attention:

1. Exp will be based on the highest item level equipped in the party/alliance at any time.
2. Mobs that give exp will continue to give exp, which means that a lvl 56 easy prey at 75 will still give exp at 99 and 120. Magian trials that were intended for lvl 75 are still doable at 99, and will still be doable at 99/120.
3. Exp gain in Abyssea will be reduced if you use IL100-120 gear, but the cap will not. So you need to kill a few more critters to cap at 600 xp, but it caps the same regardless.
4. Bonus exp from chests and gov page completion is not affected, as it's BONUS EXP. (Ever wondered why Abyssea NMs do not count towards trial kills of their family/type? Because they only give bonus exp, not regular exp!)

In short, it will not affect you in an appreciable manner. Yes, you get less exp for killing that Fernfelling Chapuli if you use IL120 gear instead of IL99 gear, but you also kill it much faster and you weren't interested in the exp but items it can drop anyway.

And yes, the fault for this lies with the players that complained it was so easy to get exp that they had nothing left to spent their meripos on. SE listened, fixed merit weaponskills in the process, and now exp gain is going under the axe. We did it to ourselves! (Now go kill those opo-opos before they take over the world!)

[Tamoa]

The above might be correct but I honestly don't care. I think very very few of us cares. Abyssea made exping SO damn easy this isn't going to make much of a difference one way or another.

What I do care about, is SE spending time and effort on something which does not matter. If this really is a feeble attempt at "balancing" exp gain, it's WAY too little WAY too late - talk about closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.

[Kristal]

The above might be correct but I honestly don't care. I think very very few of us cares. Abyssea made exping SO damn easy this isn't going to make much of a difference one way or another.

What I do care about, is SE spending time and effort on something which does not matter. If this really is a feeble attempt at "balancing" exp gain, it's WAY too little WAY too late - talk about closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.

This Item Level thing is bigger then just exp. Someone mentioned making it actual levels, but any level gain is pointless if you can just sit in Abyssea for a few hours, so why bother.

I'm curious to see where they are expanding it further.. perhaps magic or abilities that can be used if you have a certain Item Level. Similar to Impact and Auto-Reraise, but irrespective of specific gear. Perhaps that is where the new merits are heading as well, like you can unlock Resolution on RUN, but until you got the skill level you can't use it.

[Edyth]

Camate, will item levels make it so that we can prevent aggression from currently-easy-prey monsters in old areas, such as Cape Terrigan?

[Jerbob]

I completely fail to see the point in this.

The whole concept of "item level" I understand, even if I completely disagree with the switch from "horizontal" progression to "vertical" progression that outdates all my equipment with every update. But why on earth are SE spending even 10 minutes, let alone creating a whole "update chunk", making it this formal?

I really don't care about having item levels written on my gear and I certainly don't want my combined equipment acting as some kind of bizarre "pseudo-level" that has an impact on the game. What honestly is the point of this? People have already pointed out that experience points are less relevant in today's game, so why is SE complicating it with this nonsense? SE have already shown themselves to be entirely ignorant when it comes to the relevance and usefulness of gear so the levels will almost certainly be allocated badly. We didn't need this at level 75, when gear was already pretty varied, and we certainly don't need it now.

There is currently a promised update backlog going back for more than a year and constant developer excuses about a lack of manpower. There are a mind-boggling number of things that should have higher priority than this - the atrocious macroing system, job balance issues, a myriad of bugfixes and ease of use issues, general balance problems centred around Adoulin, promised events like Monstrosity, AVATARS... I also hear that the cheese sandwich doesn't yet have a magian trial upgrade path, which rates a bit higher than this.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes but that would mean changing the amount and type of data concerning that packet, and they said in the past they have no intention to do that.
Altough I would agree with you if you were to say that such a statement doesn't really mean anything, given their lack of coherence...

I was just saying that if we assume for a moment that they truly, REALLY don't want to change packet data (maybe it's really an old and core-part of the system full of spaghetti uncommented code and they don't really want to mess with that?) then they have no way to achieve such a goal.

Either way I don't see the problem, why bothering with complicated (?) solutions when they could just make it viewable during /check and make everybody happy without changing the game "philosophy" of having to check a monster and without having to spend more than 30mins of human resources to do that, instead of wasting time in crappy systems like the one mentioned in the first post of this thread?

You're over thinking it. They can simply change the monster names from things like "Gigantobuggard" to things like "Gigantobuggard - level 73".

No need to make changes to packets, data, etc. that are sent to the client.

[Alpheus]

This Item Level thing is bigger then just exp. Someone mentioned making it actual levels, but any level gain is pointless if you can just sit in Abyssea for a few hours, so why bother.


No more useless than how it was before. To give meaning to something like that would mean to make it so only by doing epic things (read Endgame-y things)do you get exp towards levels above 99. And then people would complain that they can't do so because they haven't the opportunity or time or capability at the present time.

My point is that EXP has always been useless for anything other than gauging where you are and where you wanted to end up. EXP'ing has always been a grandiose style of waiting in line and familiarizing yourself with the game. Only the latter part I mentioned is actually finished well before the former. Abyssea style EXP took traditional 6 man EXP and killed it ugly and implementation of GoV set the corpse on fire.

So no if they did uncap our levels Abyssea wouldn't make it worthless and on the off chance that it did, I would find that infinitely more preferable than what appears to be starting here; which is that they are looking into ways to restrict the player for having earned their hard won gear. Granted such restrictions cuts both ways by future implementation of gear check end game events (the gear check being done by the game itself and not the playerbase) or by going about and trying to put the genie back in the bottle that is EXP accumulation.

IDK I'm just pissed that yet again the Dev team is on another tangent that NO ONE wants to see them go through. On a base level though I get what they intend to do, give item levels meaning and that's all well and good but then they started talking about how they can use it as a way to "sorta uncap the lvl cap" and there they lost me because it's really really half assed due to the most glaring point that essentially our levels will now be in flux.

And Kristal while your idea about how this will be how we get access to our new merit capabilities, that's..... actually a nice idea but it would essentially make all the new gear into macro pieces for said 2hours and JAs and spells. Except it wouldn't be tied to specific gear it would simply be "Macro all ilevel gear so that when i push this JA/spell macro; ilevel = 150" except you cant gear swap out of it cuz then technically you just de-leveled and you wont finish your action (assuming the action is in fact a spell)

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

"Item Level" will be based on the item's fully augmented stats, regardless of how many (if any) augments have actually been applied.
"Item Level" will affect gameplay experience.
Therefore: anything that is not already fully augmented will not be used at all, lest the game throws more at you than you actually capable of handling.


And since this "Item Level" mechanic will only be applied to Adoulin gear, this right here is why level 99 gear predating Adoulin will still be in relatively high demand; it will give you stats and buffs without breaking anything else.

[Demon6324236]

And since this "Item Level" mechanic will only be applied to Adoulin gear, this right here is why level 99 gear predating Adoulin will still be in relatively high demand; it will give you stats and buffs without breaking anything else.The only thing this seems to effect is the /check feature, and possibly experience points. Which of these two are worth gimping my character? /Check is only for checking the level of the mob, I suppose once we understand this system a bit more it can make it easier to determine the exact level of a mob above 99, maybe. As for experience points, we can get a chain of mobs and lights high enough to give even level 50s around 500~600 experience a kill in Abyssea, why would it matter if in Worms we have a level 120 WAR killing everything? We already get lv60s as EP while level 99, that is a 40ish level gap, so why would it be so unlikely to see level 120 WAR killing EP Worms in Abyssea, bringing everyones XP/Mob down a bit, but increasing the kill rate by an insane amount? I assure you, if these are the only changes, old gear will gain no true relevance it does not already have, or would have had without this feature.

[Nebo]

Wasting resources on updates that do not matter, while ignoring things that really need attention!

Keep up the good work, SE!

I can't say I'm suprised. As much as the dev team renounces claims that they do not play and understand the game, they sure do make a lot of updates that suggest that they really don't have the first clue.

This nonsense...


The main reasons for switching to this is due to the fact that if we kept it the same as it is currently, regardless of how strong a monster is introduced the message displayed when you "check” would be inaccurate and we are aiming to change this. We are also aiming to make sure the amount of experience points gained from defeating enemies, as well as the pace in which they are obtained, do not become unbalanced.

...Sounds like it came from someone that hasn't set foot on Vana'diel in the lat 4 years.

That aside, Gearswapping for every action: TP phase, Job Ability, WS, Situation, Spell cast, precast, mid cast, etc, etc EXISTS.

Pretended it doesn't and making ilevel enemy /checks based on currently equiped gear really highlights the lack of understanding of the dev team about basic, fundamental gameplay mechanics.

This ilevel monster check will not function properly at any level.

Balancing enemies to give less exp with higher level equipment... :confused:

Who cares about exp from normal mobs? :confused:

Abyssea exists. /end reason for exp balance update.:rolleyes:

[Rwolf]

There is no current reason to add this feature into the game. I'm fine with it actually displaying the level difference between myself and the monster for anyone who cares about this for some reason. However I see no point in penalizing experience points in the current state of the game. You can't just partially "balance" experience point gain. Unless they are planning to nerf all exploits of experience points such as Abyssea and Grounds of Valor, there is absolutely no reason to add this.

The development team and some players in this thread might see it as proper balance but it really is not. So I'm allowed to exploit experience points by taking advantage of being power leveled through Grounds of Valor pages? I'm also allowed to key chests or stand around in Abyssea, while someone with item level 120 weapons destroys mobs? But it's imbalanced to actually work on experience points for any reason with my own hard earned gear?

Like most players are stating in this thread, focus on something that matters. This balances nothing, it is just a nerf (not a big nerf but a nerf nonetheless) for no real justifiable reason in the game's current dynamic. If I put in the effort for getting the Delve boss win and 200,000 plasm, I deserve to go into older content unhindered and grind it to dust, laughing along the way. There is a sense of reward and progression that is noticeable, which is fun.

I get the concept that you're stronger but unless you're going to treat the entire game with that methodology, I see no point in doing so to only part of the game. It's more ridiculous to me they are spending development time trying to balance this versus fixing real problems with the game.

Don't spend time replacing perfectly working pipes when you have septic tanks leaking elsewhere left unrepaired.

[Nebo]

It's Definitely one of the more absurd things they've done in a while (and that's saying something)

As if the concept of instantly changing clothes mid battle wasn't silly enough...

Claim Mob (TH gear): I'm LEVEL 107 > Gear Swap (TP set) > LOOK I"M level 118 > Gear Swap (Weaponskill set) > LOOK I'M LEVEL 120 > Gearswap (PDT set) > AH man, now I'm level 105 > Gearswap (RACC land Acid Bolts) > LOOK I'M level 103

In one fight with one monster, a player will be constanty changing ilevels with gearswaps.

How did this idea even get past the "Hey, what about adding ilevels?" brainstorm phase?

edit:

inb4 massive lag due to ilevel check spam mid battle from gearswapping lol..

[Babygyrl]

and what about relics/mythic/emps/ whats this new item level system going to do to them exactly..?

[Siviard]

It's Definitely one of the more absurd things they've done in a while (and that's saying something)

As if the concept of instantly changing clothes mid battle wasn't silly enough...

Claim Mob (TH gear): I'm LEVEL 107 > Gear Swap (TP set) > LOOK I"M level 118 > Gear Swap (Weaponskill set) > LOOK I'M LEVEL 120 > Gearswap (PDT set) > AH man, now I'm level 105 > Gearswap (RACC land Acid Bolts) > LOOK I'M level 103

In one fight with one monster, a player will be constanty changing ilevels with gearswaps.

How did this idea even get past the "Hey, what about adding ilevels?" brainstorm phase?

edit:

inb4 massive lag due to ilevel check spam mid battle from gearswapping lol..

For endgame events, gear swapping is a non-issue.

If people are so worried about not being able to do something such as Magian Trials, DON'T USE GEAR SWAPS! It's so simple it's borderline stupid.

[Zhronne]

How about they don't break stuff that works instead so we don't have to stop making use of one of the core elements of the game?

[Zhronne]

With all of the talk "we can't do this" and "we can't do that" because their lack of manpower, dedicating time and resources to stuff like this is even more irritating, when there are so many more important things they could and should worry about.

I'm not saying that the current state of XP is allright, I'm just saying that at this point it's *completely irrelevant*.
Now if this was 2 years ago, maybe, I would have agreed with the doing something about XP (altough not this silly item-level solution), but doing something, anything now is completely pointless and steals resources from other way more important things that need to be addressed and need so NOW, before too much time has passed and they go unavoidably broken beyond repair too.

[Tamoa]

At this point I'd rather see SE giving summoners their new promised avatars than this ilevel thing. And what about our new special abilities? Both are things we were promised a long time ago. Not to mention fixing R/E/Ms, that should - in my opinion at least - be one of their very top priorities considering how many people are enraged by this, quite a few to the point where they've actually quit.


Edit: since I'm somewhat out of the loop after having taken my longest (and only) voluntary break from the game, including forums, it appears they're finally doing something regarding the new smn avatars? Maybe that's the case with our new abilities too then, I honestly haven't bothered checking. Those were the 2 things I could think of off the top of my head in regards to what they've promised us but not implemented yet (and avoided answering questions about it for a long time too, for the most part), I'm sure there are others though.

Point is, in my opinion they should prioritize things they've said they do over things like this.

Hell, give drgs different coloured wyverns, or give us the option to change race for a fee instead of ilevel. -.-

[FrankReynolds]

A quick tip for the Devs:

If you aren't fixing one of the myriad problems currently in the game, or adding some previously promised feature then you are probably not working on the right thing. This forum is brimming over with ideas for things to do. Your imagination needs to wait.

[Nebo]

For endgame events, gear swapping is a non-issue.

If people are so worried about not being able to do something such as Magian Trials, DON'T USE GEAR SWAPS! It's so simple it's borderline stupid.


Their whole reason for making this ilevel update is a non-issue. That is the point.

As for ilevels effecting Magian Trials:


It probably won't. They've kept mobs that are very low still EP to 99, seemingly for this reason.
If it does...who cares? Magian weapons aren't relevant any more except for a select few specialty ones that will likely be replaced soon.

[Babygyrl]

Follow xboxOne's example and Listen to our opinions :D fix relic/emps/mythics make them stronger, trials easier and we don't need this level stuff on items k thanks!

[Twille]

Displaying the armors "level" as a gauge of its difficulty to obtain/power is fine. Having it effect the game in any other way is a waste of time and resources.

[Traxus]

Yes but that would mean changing the amount and type of data concerning that packet, and they said in the past they have no intention to do that.
Altough I would agree with you if you were to say that such a statement doesn't really mean anything, given their lack of coherence...

I was just saying that if we assume for a moment that they truly, REALLY don't want to change packet data (maybe it's really an old and core-part of the system full of spaghetti uncommented code and they don't really want to mess with that?) then they have no way to achieve such a goal.

Either way I don't see the problem, why bothering with complicated (?) solutions when they could just make it viewable during /check and make everybody happy without changing the game "philosophy" of having to check a monster and without having to spend more than 30mins of human resources to do that, instead of wasting time in crappy systems like the one mentioned in the first post of this thread?

Late reply, but they already do send monster level to the client, it just isn't displayed. You can see it with THIRD PARTY TOOLS. From what I hear anyway.

[Sarick]

Ever since the SoA the updates have been nothing but screwing up what kept the game alive 10+ years. The first mistake was making ITEM level and growth. What this SOA expansion It seems this was is a way to CURVE the players from burning through content to fast. If they kept everything 99 then players wouldn't need the LEVELED based gear to beat it. So they throw in this item based level system as a stop gap to slow the content consumption. Unfortunitly, it also separated the player base. If you can't get that gear you'll never amount to anything.

They might as well of just UPPED the EXP level caps and added some seriously hardcore long limit breakers quest where you had to do them for every JOB. Seriously, I'm sick o the direction I'm seeing this game head. Everyone I know personally RL who plays or played agrees. Maybe it's time people need to start canceling. It's just that F'n bad.

It broke the game and they're adding this when other aspects could be fixed /improved. Sorry, developers this game is going down hill so bad that even if you tried to save it you couldn't.

[Camate]

Greetings!

One of the major questions and concerns we have been seeing thus far in regards to the newly introduced item levels and the changes to how "check" will function is "will Trial of the Magians be affected?"

This is definitely a valid concern and we will be making sure these can still be completed at higher levels. To accomplish this we will be keeping the experience points received for monsters level 99 and below the same and only making adjustments to monsters level 100+.

So basically, everything before Adoulin will still work the way it does currently, and all the monsters for Adoulin and beyond will have this adjustment applied.

Again, having item levels displayed on equipment is just a different way of showing character growth instead of having your character physically level up past level 99.

[darkhorror]

If you charm in lvl100+ gear so that a mob checks EM or less will it stay the duration of the EM or less or will it be based of actual job level vs enemy level?

Also if you call a jug pet will they be able to come out at lvl100+ if you have lvl 100+ gear or will they stay at lvl99?

[Renaissance2K]

One of the major questions and concerns we have been seeing thus far in regards to the newly introduced item levels and the changes to how "check" will function is "will Trial of the Magians be affected?"

This is definitely a valid concern and we will be making sure these can still be completed at higher levels. To accomplish this we will be keeping the experience points received for monsters level 99 and below the same and only making adjustments to monsters level 100+.

So basically, everything before Adoulin will still work the way it does currently, and all the monsters for Adoulin and beyond will have this adjustment applied.

Good call.

[Demon6324236]

If you charm in lvl100+ gear so that a mob checks EM or less will it stay the duration of the EM or less or will it be based of actual job level vs enemy level?

Also if you call a jug pet will they be able to come out at lvl100+ if you have lvl 100+ gear or will they stay at lvl99?If it goes by the level of gear on you, time to start collecting all of the highest level stuff for BST...

[Sarick]

If it goes by the level of gear on you, time to start collecting all of the highest level stuff for BST...

Apparently by this system you'd only need one piece of high level gear to boost the pets level if it follows the same pattern as this EXP check.

[Masamune11]

I never thought I'd say this, but at this point, can the "storyline" be wrapped up so that those who want to move onto FFXIV can do so without feeling like they missed out on the conclusion of the game? I mean, end-game can go for the end of time if people want to play it, but I think it's about time the story come to a close.

The only reason I say this is because I fear that there will never be a conclusion. With all of these item levels being implemented, I feel like the game is being artificially extended until people stop playing and at that point the plug might be pulled without a conclusion. If we can be guaranteed a conclusion, then i'm fine with it, but I honestly feel like it's time to start looking towards the direction of a full conclusion.

[Vivivivi]

Im slightly confused about the item level thing. Is the basic idea that while there is no future level cap increase planned, by equipping level 115 gear, that in affect becomes our level? The idea being that in order to obtain level 115 gear, we should have roughly level 110 gear and so-on?

The stats offered by say level 115 gear would be comparable to if there was a level cap increase (not that i'm suggesting that, I like level 99).

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Adoulin and beyond

Let's take a step back for a moment. "And beyond?" Really? Are the folks on your end sitting on something big that we don't yet know about? Because on our end, the players' end, saying Final Fantasy XI is "treading water" is feeling a bit generous.

It doesn't exactly help that Final Fantasy XIV is making it so easy to see the contrasts and to draw conclusions from that. It's real hard to see the "beyond" in XI when the "beyond" in XIV is dazzling us. Heck, these very forums can't seem to get "beyond" beta.

So talk to us. Give us something, preferably not more talk about specific jobs or specific equipment, because that's getting stale. What's up with the (PC-only) UI you're working on? How will that change gameplay beyond making it more "mouse-friendly?"

Speaking of improving the user experience, have you given much thought to actually new players recently? I mean, FFXI on top of POL on top of S-E Accounts doesn't exactly make this an easy game to pick up and play, and parts of the game manual are at least three years out of date.

In short, if the devs really are thinking about "Adoulin and beyond," why are we only hearing about the "Adoulin" and not the "beyond?"

[Nebo]

Again, having item levels displayed on equipment is just a different way of showing character growth instead of having your character physically level up past level 99.

Showing iLevel as a display of character growth is fine.....pointless....but fine.

But spending precious development resources on having iLevel perform a level /check against monsters to determine exp gained is more than a little silly....even for you guys.

Gearswapping multiple times per battle means that your iLevel is constantly changing and adjusting your exp score. :confused:

No one is concerned with exp after reachign level 99. This change is pointless.

Please abandon development work on this update and put resources into something that actually matters and needs atention. You have more than enough to choose from.

[Creelo]

Because of the fact that equipment changing is part of FFXI's core gameplay, this item lvl crap is pointless.

And this adjustment is just so we can't gain exp as fast on mobs few people regularly fight? Really????

Nobody cares. If we could just scrap this entirely, the dev team could focus on other, more desired content. Perhaps this next update could come sooner as well? Maybe we could even get a date given on when this next update is coming too because atm... it seems like it'll never come. <_< (The update regarding Skirmish II, new Wildskeeper reives, etc)

[Zhronne]

Late reply, but they already do send monster level to the client, it just isn't displayed. You can see it with THIRD PARTY TOOLS. From what I hear anyway.
As far as I know that data is sent to the client only during a Check command, not with the rest of the data that gets normally sent from server to client.

[Zhronne]

Again, having item levels displayed on equipment is just a different way of showing character growth instead of having your character physically level up past level 99.
It's not?
So much fail...
So much confusion. Do the dev bros even know where they're going? What they're doing? What their customer demands and needs?

Why spending resources on this crap, really, why? With so much stuff that needs to be fixed.
Sigh... Instead of fixing stuff they prefer to break more.
How can anybody look at the future with hope in their hearts?
How can we believe in FFXI, how can we believe there's gonna be a "beyond" for this game at all?

[Zhronne]

Oh and btw we already had a system to show "character evolution past the level cap" and that was called the "Merit System".
Which was a fantastic and perfectly coherent idea which, if anything, hasn't been expanded enough yet.

This item level crap copy/pasted from other games with COMPLETELY different phylosophies and models has NOTHING to do with stuff like that.
Merits were a great idea to offer character progression and evolution beyond the cap, this item level thing is just crap.

[Alpheus]

Best case scenario is that they have something mind blowing as the reason for doing this, and for the sake of surprise are burying the lead. I have my issues with it that I already posted so all that's left for me is to just wait and see what method there is to their madness.

[hideka]

Greetings!

One of the major questions and concerns we have been seeing thus far in regards to the newly introduced item levels and the changes to how "check" will function is "will Trial of the Magians be affected?"

This is definitely a valid concern and we will be making sure these can still be completed at higher levels. To accomplish this we will be keeping the experience points received for monsters level 99 and below the same and only making adjustments to monsters level 100+.

So basically, everything before Adoulin will still work the way it does currently, and all the monsters for Adoulin and beyond will have this adjustment applied.

Again, having item levels displayed on equipment is just a different way of showing character growth instead of having your character physically level up past level 99.

hello "LFM RANDOM RAID, GS 9000+ ONLY" shouts.
Glad i canceled my account last week.
if anyones looking to play a better mmo: please move to FFXIV. they actually care about that game.

[Merton9999]

I never thought I'd say this, but at this point, can the "storyline" be wrapped up so that those who want to move onto FFXIV can do so without feeling like they missed out on the conclusion of the game? I mean, end-game can go for the end of time if people want to play it, but I think it's about time the story come to a close.

The only reason I say this is because I fear that there will never be a conclusion. With all of these item levels being implemented, I feel like the game is being artificially extended until people stop playing and at that point the plug might be pulled without a conclusion. If we can be guaranteed a conclusion, then i'm fine with it, but I honestly feel like it's time to start looking towards the direction of a full conclusion.

This is what I've been thinking too. I was hoping to reactivate later when the story content was added but the way it looks I won't be able to see it anyway because it's going to require all this item level 120 stuff to complete the missions.

So do we have to have a macro to equip all the highest item level equipment just to /check something now? Do you calculate experience points (I know, who cares...) for 100+ mobs based on the accumulated item level at the mob's ToD?

[Catmato]

Greetings!

One of the major questions and concerns we have been seeing thus far in regards to the newly introduced item levels and the changes to how "check" will function is "will Trial of the Magians be affected?"
Why would anyone care about Magian trials anymore? Any weapon that requires exp-yielding mobs is rubbish. You spent so much time and effort on the system and made it, and almost every weapon from it, obsolete.

[Kincard]

if anyones looking to play a better mmo: please move to FFXIV. they actually care about that game.

I don't get all you people that have become beaten housewifes to FFXI over the last 10 years that assume that they're going to suddenly change that policy with XIV. The game looks fine and all, it's just that close interaction with the company itself through XI has really left a bad taste in my mouth.

Give it another few years and it'll become apparent they only listen to their JP players as well, and even then also only about 10% of the time.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Screw Magians, I want to be able to walk through Xarcabard [S] without aggro.

EDIT: And isn't it about time the Northlands got maws? Xarcabard [S] and both Beaucedines still don't have one, in spite of the lore around Voidwalkers requiring it.

[Secondplanet]

I'm not liking this direction the game is going, i just recently gotten back into the game for the new expansion and i can't get any KI's cause everyone wants me to be packing emp 90+ or delve or mythic etc.. just to join their parties, now that your gonna add this its gonna get even harder for anyone new or returning to get anywhere in this new area.

This game is loosing its fun and is turning into constant grinding and backstabbing to get anything done and with this new armor your talking about it just sounds like the gap between casual and hardcore is getting wider. Atleast in the past when you saw someone with the best gear it was only about 10% better then yours but now its well over 50-60%.

[Zhronne]

I also don't get the need for this going "beyond cap". The game survived how long with the cap set at 75? 7 years? 8?
Then why exactely is a "level cap increase through item level" necessary now?
Just fix things, balance things, widen up the things we can do, offer new content, make so old content is still fun, interesting and efficient to do.

Stop breaking this game damn it, stop trying to adapt Game Models from other MMOs into FFXI, it's not gonna work! FFXI survived this long because it was unique and different from everything else. Stop attempting to make it the same as all the rest. You don't do that to an over 11 years old game!
Can we please get some more competent people in the dev team? Someone who actually *CARES* for this game, before it completely falls apart piece after piece?

[Sarick]

I also don't get the need for this going "beyond cap".

~~~

Stop breaking this game damn it, stop trying to adapt Game Models from other MMOs into FFXI, it's not gonna work! FFXI survived this long because it was unique and different from everything else. Stop attempting to make it the same as all the rest. You don't do that to an over 11 years old game!
Can we please get some more competent people in the dev team? Someone who actually *CARES* for this game, before it completely falls apart piece after piece?

Wooosh, don't think they're hearing us.

Recall:
The XBone (massive DRM that that both made online mandatory. It also restricted media),
Windows 8 (System wide changes that people had issues with and abandon what people knew)
Coke (they changed the flavor and abandon the old.)
FFXIV Limitations on experience with rested exp. (this was completely removed!)

All these things caused fans to rage and each product had a 180 degree turn around because of them. Unfortunately, the teams on FFXI don't seem to be listening. The hardcore fans of the game who burn through content are the only ones with an actual future.

The item level systems are just BOGUS. They've already ruined the game for many players by splitting the user base by massive margins. Now anyone who doesn't play every single day and/or has competitive high level gear to keep up is getting left out of the game. It's literally to late. The game direction is broken and it seems they don't plan on going back where everyone could gain levels easily without the grind.

Sooooooooo.....

I agree with a lot of the complainers and friends who are quitting. I think it's going wooooosh right past the development teams. They've already lost millions in poor design in other projects. After all FFXIV is getting reborn because it sucked costing them a big loss. It will also eventually have new content that ruins what worked in the past just like this game.

FFXI seriously split the user base into peons that can do nothing but quit and elitist who have what it takes to stay in the front of the gear RAT race adapting to new content soon after it's added.

The development continues to go the wrong direction. Some people are apologist about it because they can manage to adapt to the new content direction while others are canceling or on the fence about it.

It's no wonder SE has been bleeding fans and cash this gen. Woooosh in FFXI.

[FrankReynolds]

Wooosh, don't think they're hearing us.

Recall:
The XBone (massive DRM that that both made online mandtory. It also restrcted media),
Windows 8 (System wide changes that people had issues with and abandon what people knew)
Coke (they changed the flavor and abandon the old.)

All these things caused fans to rage and each product had a 180 degree turn around because of them. Unfortunately, the teams on FFXI don't seem to be listening. The hardcore fans of the game who burn through content are the only ones with an actual future.

The item level systems are just BOGUS. They've already ruined the game for many players by splitting the user base by massive margins. Now anyone who doesn't play every single day and has competive high level gear to keep up is getting left out of the game. It's literally to late now the game direction is broken and it seems they don't plan on going back where everyone could gain levels easily without the grind.

Sooooooooo.....

Even though I agree with a lot o the complainers and friends who are quitting everything that people hate. I think it's going wooooosh right past the development teams. They've already lost millions in poor design. After all FFXIV is getting reborn because it sucked costing them a big loss. It will also eventually have new content that ruins what worked in the past just like this game when they stopped listening and split the user base into peons that can do nothing but quit and elitist who have what it takes to stay in the front of the gear RAT race adapting to new content soon after t's added.

The development continues to go the wrong direction. Some people are apologist about it because they can manage to adapt to the new content direction while others are canceling or on the fence about it.

It's no wonder SE has been bleeding fans and cash this gen. Woooosh in FFXI.

Yeah, I don't get this whole "FFXI sucks and the dev's don't listen! Let's all go play FFXIV now!" attitude. As if it weren't the same people making the new game...

Remember when Ford Pintos used to explode any time they had a little fender bender due to the faulty rear fuel tank? Nobody thought it was a good idea to take the insurance money they got from their burnt up friends / family / car and go buy the new model Ford Pinto. WTF is wrong with people these days?

[Zhronne]

As if it weren't the same people making the new game...
Technically it's not the same people D:
As much as many (all?) of the old/original FFXI are now employed into FFXIV.
Matsui himself was into FFXI, then moved into FFXIV and only recently came back into FFXI after Tanaka's departure.
But things in these games are more often than not decided by a small bunch of people, usually one and his stricter cooperators, who decide the "direction" the game goes and organize the work of all the other employee who just do what they're told.

In this sense, FFXIV is the game of Yoshi-P, whereas FFXI atm is Matsui's game. (or whomever pulls the strings behind him, if he's not the one)

[Demon6324236]

Yeah, I don't get this whole "FFXI sucks and the dev's don't listen! Let's all go play FFXIV now!" attitude. As if it weren't the same people making the new game...

Remember when Ford Pintos used to explode any time they had a little fender bender due to the faulty rear fuel tank? Nobody thought it was a good idea to take the insurance money they got from their burnt up friends / family / car and go buy the new model Ford Pinto. WTF is wrong with people these days?Simple, that game looks good, is new, and looks like they are putting resources into it right now. This game looks like shit, is old, and it feels like they are only providing the bare minimum of services to keep us paying. On top of these things, FFXIV fucked up, they took it down, and it looks like they fixed it, FFXI is fucking up royally right now, and they are having a hard time figuring out why and correcting the issue because it seems to be going right over their heads, and rather than focus on real problems, they want to give us things like Item Levels and such. Also, FFXIV is made by a different team, the leader of which is the same person who gave us Abyssea, an add-on which many loved and many hated, those who loved it get extra incentive on why to get FFXIV, we liked his work before. On top of everything else, they seem to be more willing to listen and they are providing info, where as the FFXI team has always treated everything like it was imperative it be kept secret until the players found out on their own, as well as the fact their team has the man power to keep their word when they say they will release content, rather than taking years for the simplest of things.

Your saying its the same as buying the same thing from the same company after they mess it up. Its not though, this was not made by the same team, it was not made with the same ideas in mind, and it was not made in the same generation. FFXIV shows a lot of promise for players, more than this game has, it looks like they are trying to improve on some of the things FFXI had problems with not only in game, but out of game too. Part of which is for instance, the information, getting an official source for information about the game sounds great to me. I love what this community has done, but the problem is that we should not have had such a large reliance on wiki sites or forums, so much so that I have even literally been told by GMs that rather than fix my issue, or help, if it is not a bug in a quest they will provide no instruction or guidance, and I must go through a community site. That, is an improvement in service I think. The game shows many differences from gameplay to the team, direction, how things work, story, and so on, but in the end I think the game is different even if it is from Square Enix, and I think it will be great to buy. To me, comparing FFXI to FFXIV is like comparing FFX to Kingdom Hearts, they are developed by the same company, but different teams, different design aspects, and different features, even if made by the same company, under the same kind of genre.

[Tamoa]

Your saying its the same as buying the same thing from the same company after they mess it up. Its not though, this was not made by the same team, it was not made with the same ideas in mind, and it was not made in the same generation.

It isn't the same product, but it's still the same brand name. And in my case I have lost faith in the brand because of what's been done to FFXI, to the point where I don't trust them not to mess up with 14 aswell.

[Demon6324236]

To each their own, I simply do not think its fair to act as though all of the people thinking of switching, or have decided to switch, are ignoring the fact its from SE and its a MMO. I think everyone is well aware of what FFXIV is, who is making it, and about the game itself. Its just to me, it looks promising, the team in charge of it seem to be doing some of the things we have asked for, part of which is releasing info about things in game without us having to hunt it down, or making things like quests more simple and fun, rather than talking to every NPC in the zone they give till I find the right one. SE also seems to be giving it more support right now than FFXI, when FFXI started it was doing well in my opinion, do not get me wrong it had flaws, but they worked on it hard and fixed what needed it I think, but as time has went on they have done less and less for it. I have no doubt FFXIV will be the same way, they are starting with it now, its going to be decent at start, its real start was a failure, but now its been fixed up a bit, and over time I am sure they will support it less and less, eventually not at all, as is the life of an aging MMO unless treated properly.

FFXI has hit a bad spot, changing producers a few times in a couple years, conflicting design ideas implemented, a player base who uses every exploit the creators give them to beat content earlier than it was meant to, its really brought the game down. No matter what, if FFXI falls right now I will always blame the players for it in a way because we did jump the gun on Delve, destroyed their design idea, and did irreversible damage to the game in how they imagined us doing it. At the same time, SE failed on their delivery, as they created the gapping hole for us to walk through and seize that exploit to win early.

I will not let my FFXI experience effect my purchase of FFXIV except for the Abyssea era, and possible what came somewhat after. The producer that is currently on FFXIV from my understanding is the same one from that era of this game, so the best way to judge it would be by what he did while he was in that seat. To me, that's good, and directs me to buy it, and even if it comes from SE as a company, I love most their games, even if FFXI is a black mark in a way, it means very little to me. Saying that FFXI did bad at times through to the end, is one thing, but I could list off a hundred people who said FFXIII was bad, yet still buy many other SE and FF titles, even if they are of the same genre and brand.

Basically what I am saying I guess is that in my opinion, its Final Fantasy, its a MMO, and its SE, but its a different team and its a single game that went sort of astray, if they had 3 MMOs and all were like FFXI, I would agree, stay off of FFXIV till they can prove its not the same, or stay away in general, but its not really, so I wont act that way myself.

[FrankReynolds]

Wouldn't it be easier to just say "I don't care who made it, it looks cool..."?

You are unbelievably optimistic and I admire you for that. All that other stuff you said amounts to ignoring reality though.

The odds of FFXIV ever doing as good as FFXI are incredibly low. Even if FFXIV is awesome, it will probably never draw the number of subscribers required for it to continue to get the level of developer support that it is currently getting. As soon as the SE execs see that it is never going to have millions of subs, they will cut back the support budget and it will be FFXI all over again only this time it will happen much faster.

I'm not gonna lie. It looks great, but when I talk to my friends - and I have a large number of friends who work in the game industry as developers, tester, artists blah blah blah - none of them are even remotely interested. The same goes for well... pretty much everyone I know outside of the FFXI game / forums.

I will be amazed if it is even capable of maintaining the number of subs that FFXI has now. I would love to be wrong and I will probably try it out, but telling myself or anyone else that it has a bright future is really not a prudent idea.

The crappy thing is that they really could make it a success if they dumped a ton of money into advertising, but I suspect that we would be seeing the commercials during every sports game etc. by now if they had any plans to do that.

[Mirage]

Seriously SE. Making item level affect /check and exp is kind of idiotic and pointless.

No one relies on Adoulin monster kills to gain significant amounts of EXP. People who are 99 will know how strong their gear is when they attack other monsters anyway.

[Helel]

lol @ people thinking XIV is better than XI. XIV people will need something to return to once XIV fails again. They will get a hefty influx of players from XI I'm sure, but who else? Nobody other than XI players has any clue what's going on with the game, nor do they care. A ruined launch of an MMO = a dead MMO. If they were smart, they would have changed the name of the game completely so the average person isn't immediately averse to even trying it. FFXIV is ruined forever, which is unfortunate because it does look like a decent attempt at a MMO. I may even check it out myself, but I certainly don't expect it to live very long.

[Nebo]

Yeah, I don't get this whole "FFXI sucks and the dev's don't listen! Let's all go play FFXIV now!" attitude. As if it weren't the same people making the new game...

Aside from the fact that Square Enix pays their salaries, it is a completely different team making FFXIV.

And as a gamer, designer, producer, director I have a MASSIVE amount of respect for Yoshi-P. Just go watch one of his interviews, it doesn't take long to see that he really understands where SE had been failing in the MMO maret. Mistakes both with FFXI and FFXIV.

He has made a massive amount of effort to listen to and communicate with the playerbase and I think he has made a great game as a result.

If the FFXI dev team had even 1/10 of that communication philosphy, FFXI would be a much better game. Instead we get one way communication: Translations of decisions that have already been made-by devs that clearly have a lesser understanding of what the game needs.

It is BECAUSE they don't listen and ask for feedback enough that FFXI will fail. Not because it's not an amazing game that still holds a lot of potential.

[Mirage]

lol @ people thinking XIV is better than XI. XIV people will need something to return to once XIV fails again. They will get a hefty influx of players from XI I'm sure, but who else? Nobody other than XI players has any clue what's going on with the game, nor do they care. A ruined launch of an MMO = a dead MMO. If they were smart, they would have changed the name of the game completely so the average person isn't immediately averse to even trying it. FFXIV is ruined forever, which is unfortunate because it does look like a decent attempt at a MMO. I may even check it out myself, but I certainly don't expect it to live very long.

If there is anyone who has no idea what's going on about FF14, it is FF11 players.

[Randnum]

That's a bit of a blanket, Mirage.

As a game designer and tester also, I (and my team) have great HOPE for FFXIV, and great respect for Yoshi-P, but we're mostly concerned for that game's longevity. It looks really pretty and fixes many of the issues with this game, but it also somewhat lacks SOME of the charms of this game, therefore on a personal level, I don't want to play it yet (I just wanna look at it... so pretty ~mesmerized~).

I'd hope though that they just talk to each other, learn what to do for both games, because this one doesn't need that much, it just keeps getting more things it doesn't need (e.g. the main topic of this thread), as everyone says.

There's listening to your players too much, too. Now if only we could just take the average of the two games and their design philosophies and rock out.

[Mirage]

Yes I know. I was trying to be as blanket as Helel was, as a joke.

[kylani]

That's a bit of a blanket, Mirage.

As a game designer and tester also, I (and my team) have great HOPE for FFXIV, and great respect for Yoshi-P, but we're mostly concerned for that game's longevity. It looks really pretty and fixes many of the issues with this game, but it also somewhat lacks SOME of the charms of this game, therefore on a personal level, I don't want to play it yet (I just wanna look at it... so pretty ~mesmerized~).

I'd hope though that they just talk to each other, learn what to do for both games, because this one doesn't need that much, it just keeps getting more things it doesn't need (e.g. the main topic of this thread), as everyone says.

There's listening to your players too much, too. Now if only we could just take the average of the two games and their design philosophies and rock out.

I agree philosophically, but I feel like 14 is trying to hit the Wow type of market. I cannot blame any developer for trying to get that market, and I've been hoping SE would succeed, but bring the added depth in that I've always loved about 11. I've taken a break from FFXI before and enjoyed the wow-like games plenty of times (Wow, vanguard, lotro, rift, gw2, etc), but they were always games I enjoyed, even loved (I'm a lifer in lotro) for a time, but I always came back to FFXI because there is a depth/feeling/immersion about it that I haven't found anywhere else.

There is an incredible wealth of content in FFXI. So much, that it can be overwhelming. So I've often taken the break, then come back refreshed, excited to tackle tasks I want to accomplish. I've never minded not being the top tier in the game, so long as I could play the game at my own pace and enjoy it with others.

The delve update was so different than most. I feel like the devs just made this huge jump because they don't care about longevity anymore. Don't put thought into it, just add an expansion to keep FFXI going and get what they can out of FFXI until FFXIV goes live, and if they turn off players so they jump ship to FFXIV, so much the better. :(

Of course, this makes me really want to invest in FFXIV now... NOT! I have friends who left FFXI ages ago chomping at the bit to play FFXIV, and now I'm having a hard time mustering any enthusiasm for it. It may be different devs right now, but SE has been switching dev teams back and forth enough, that I don't consider anything solid with SE anymore.

Before I was planning to play both and see what happens. Hoping FFXIV would evolve like 11 into something that I'd enjoy for a long time. Now I just feel burnt out on MMOs period, particularly SE.

[Deifact]

The delve update was so different than most. I feel like the devs just made this huge jump because they don't care about longevity anymore. Don't put thought into it, just add an expansion to keep FFXI going and get what they can out of FFXI until FFXIV goes live, and if they turn off players so they jump ship to FFXIV, so much the better. :(

Slightly off topic, but I see a lot of people saying similar to the above. I doubt the devs are purposefully pushing people away from the game, considering if FFXI went under a lot of people would lose their jobs. Plus I'm sure square enix wants nothing more than for people to play ffxi AND ffxiv for double profits. Plus ffxi is still the safety net if ffxiv:arr flops again.

On topic, I agree with most here when they say this is a huge waste of dev time. Out of all the improvements and features the community has suggested, or SE has promised in the past, why implement item levels? While they're at it why don't they remake beastcoin icons, shorten behemoth tail lengths and give goobbue less teeth.

Talk about procrastination. It's like spending all night making a scale model of the Eiffel tower out of toothpicks and sugar cubes the night before college exams.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Plus I'm sure square enix wants nothing more than for people to play ffxi AND ffxiv for double profits.

They have a funny way of showing it. There is absolutely zero integration between XI and XIV, not even between the /friendlists. Playing two MMO's concurrently is already an unrealistic proposition (and a hard sell because of it), but if a player is, there is zero incentive for both of their games to be Final Fantasy.

[Kincard]

They removed the double subscription discount too, so there's very little reason to have an active account on both other than nostalgia for XI.

I don't think they're trying to push people away from XI deliberately though- incompetence is always a much better explanation.

[Kristal]

If you charm in lvl100+ gear so that a mob checks EM or less will it stay the duration of the EM or less or will it be based of actual job level vs enemy level?

Also if you call a jug pet will they be able to come out at lvl100+ if you have lvl 100+ gear or will they stay at lvl99?

Other level checks are not affected. You'd still charm like a 99, but it IS possible that a piece of IL112 gear has a Charm-enhancing effect so you charm as if you are lvl 112.

Level 5 Petrify might work on IL120 though :D

[Catmato]

if FFXI went under a lot of people would lose their jobs.
I'm sure the company could find positions for the three people still working on FFXI.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm sure the company could find positions for the three people still working on FFXI.

If they even work on FFXI full time. I'm pretty sure they all have other primary jobs at SE and then work on FFXI as time allows (read as: when they get too drunk to drive home at happy hour and have to hang out at the office until they sober up).

[Sarick]

To whoever said get over it?

That is a horrid way to promote FFXI to people who are already on the fence. Remember the only reason SE keeps this game going is because it's still profitable. You think the groups of people who are unmotivated, can't participate, are the fence about quitting or have quit because of the design choices would be HELPING this game if they just ignored it?

IMHO it'd hurt any game if the players don't speak up or wasn't heard. For every single player that speaks up there are many who don't. Each of those players represent money per month. Some own multiple accounts and mules. This money is used to pay the staff, upgrade the game and keep the severs running. I'm sure you know this already.

Here's a key element. You say these people who need to get over themselves because they don't like how the game is playing out. Think about it they don't have to stay if they don't like the game. By telling the fans get over it you'll only entice these players to leave more. Who's fault is this if the game isn't fun?

In heart, don't you think the game would benefit much more if it was fun and addictive for everyone instead of a boring job like environment with nothing but a long pointless grids? I'm sure if it was superior material there wouldn't be people complaining and um, quitting. I mentioned this a few times from my personal experiences.

Let's look at it from a logical perspective. These forums don't give a good poll, it's the ones who didn't speak we should be worrying about because they didn't feel motivated enough to actively speak up.

Look at these item levels they don't seem to enhance the game much. Fixes where needed elsewhere but for some reason this became a priority fix. Several people have spoken up that they don't think this change is necessary or even worth the resources invested into it. Some even pointed out that it can cause serious unforeseen issues.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Below is an in-depth response from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to content levels and item levels.

---
Matsui here.

Thanks so much for all the feedback about item levels and content levels.

I've been answering questions on this topic and have discussed this in the past, but I'd like to take this opportunity to talk more about it.


Content Levels
For Adoulin, we've set a basic repeating play cycle which entails procuring stronger equipment to challenge harder content, which will yield even stronger equipment.

In order to indicate difficulty for Adoulin content in a way that is displayed in an objective fashion, we have established content levels.

The below is a chart representation of this:

<table width="600" border="0"> <tr> <td width="11%" align="center">20</td> <td width="1%" style="border-style:none;"></td> <td width="20%" align="center">Delve (Boss monsters)</td> <td width="1%" style="border-style:none;"></td> <td width="20%" style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">19</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">18</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">17</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">New Wildskeeper Reives</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">16</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">15</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">14</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Delve (NM group 2)</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">13</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">New Skirmish</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">12</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">11</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Delve (NM group 1)</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">10</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">9</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td rowspan="4" align="center">New Colonization/Lair Reives</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">8</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Wildskeeper Reives</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Skirmish</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td rowspan="5" align="center">Colonization/Lair Reives</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">1</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Content Level</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Up to April 2013</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Upcoming version updates (July and August)</td> </tr></table>


Why not increase the level cap?
To be extremely frank, increasing the level cap was never an option.

So then what were our options?

Below are the two plans:


Expand equipment variation laterally
This would be preserving the original style of the game up until now.
Keeping relics, mythics, and empyreans at the top, add gear that can be used depending on the situation without creating higher tiers of equipment. No changes to the level 99 cap.


Boost equipment variation vertically
This is the current plan.
Add equipment that surpasses relics, mythics, and empyrean. Player level cap of 99 remains unchanged, but growth takes place via equipment.


I believe that there were quite a few who recall that there was a lot of feedback in the past about content difficulty and item stats not matching up, and a lot of equipment having similar stats.

We had come to see the limits of continuing to expand equipment variation laterally, and due to the fact that it wouldn't be possible to change monster strength without character growth as well as the fact that it would be difficult to make a variety of exciting content, the result would turn into only expanding areas, which we did not think was desirable.

As a result based on thorough discussions, while considering the current state of the game as well as the future, we decided to boost the variation of equipment vertically.

There were also a number of other reasons why increasing the level cap was not added as an option.

As I am sure you are all aware, increasing the level cap would cause a number of balance related issues to arise, such as whether the support jobs would remain at 49 or if they could be allowed to go higher, limitations on job abilities and job traits, and also how high the staged increases of job traits would go.

Also, the current UI system used in FINAL FANTASY XI was not created for levels to go above 99, so in order to display parameters for levels over 99 it would be necessary to completely reconstruct portions of the UI.


Items Levels I
With a growth system that takes place via equipment, there is one large aspect that differs from what we have seen in the game up until now.

The aspect is moving from two growth patterns: parameters that grow by leveling and parameters that grow from equipment, to just one: parameters that grow from equipment. As a result, equipment stats have come to look much larger; however, the fundamental thought process up until now will not be changed.

Just like up until now where you would gain experience points by defeating strong monsters that you were able to challenge, level up, and continue to grow by procuring strong equipment, in Adoulin as well you'll be challenging strong monsters and content, and progressing growth by gathering powerful equipment.

Put simply, due to the below reasons we've made it so the strength of equipment does not rely on the level you can equip them, but instead relies on the content level you can obtain them.


No growth from levels
No indicator of equipment strength via the level they can be equipped



Items Levels II
I'd like to go into more detail about the strength of equipment does not relying on the level you can equip them, but instead relying on the content level you can obtain them.

The strength of monsters that appear in Adoulin content will be decided on the content level. (Since we will be building a solid hierarchy between content, we’re making it so just 1 level difference in content level will be extremely noticeable.)

We've also calculated the necessary parameters you will need to combat these monsters and decided the stats for Adoulin equipment, which is why we've established item levels to make them references for equipment strength.

The meaning behind content levels and items levels
Basically, we would like you to use content levels and items levels as a reference when challenging content.

Though it's a reference, we understand there are aspects that can be covered by certain strategies and ways of playing as well as equipment that is used/collected for their special stats and properties, so this is NOT something that is saying "you definitely cannot do this content without this item level."

We'd just like this to act as a gauge where you can consider what kind of equipment you should gather and what kind of content you can go do.

Amongst the equipment available before Adoulin, there were items that exceeded item level 100, and while there are aspects that make it difficult to determine, it will become easier to understand as more and more items with item levels are introduced.

In regards to equipment that have augments added to them, we had originally wanted to have individual item levels depending on the specific value of the augments, but with the current system it was determined that it would be difficult, and we will be making it so the item level displayed is for the highest augment value possible. We apologize for this and appreciate your understanding.

Also, similar to how we would like you to use content levels and items levels as reference, it also makes it possible for the person implementing equipment and content to grasp the strength of equipment stats and monster strength more objectively.

In the event that the person implementing these things were to change, it’s extremely important for them to prepare the proper content and item stats following the content level difficulty and stat curve.

As an example, as a response to feedback that mentioned content difficulty and item stats did not match, it will now become possible to accurately assess this, and it will also be possible to judge more accurately what kind of content is being implemented for a certain level, whether more variations are necessary, and what content's difficulty needs adjusting.


Wrap-up

Until now I have been talking about the concept and purpose for content levels and item levels.

I'm aware that the negative feedback in regards to content levels and item levels is largely split into two categories.


The concept of content levels does not work properly
This is something that I discussed in a post I made last month.



With the release of the end of April version update, we've implemented Delve and have completed the battle content that was planned for the launch of Seekers of Adoulin.

I feel that the flow of content that we planned where players would take on higher tiers of content (content level) by progressing in stages is not going as smoothly as we'd like.

Specifically, I would like to adjust the fact that it's difficult to do colonization reives and lair reives in small numbers, as well as the fact that it is difficult to start Skirmish.

For the time being, Delve (the boss battle) has been set as the highest content level.

With this current state, I feel priorities should be placed on implementing and adjusting content for low-man or soloing more than adding further higher tier content, and I would like to work hard while heading in this direction so that a larger amount of players can enjoy the game.


After this I also made a post about Reive adjustments (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33077-I-feel-like-Delve-just-made-90-of-the-Adoulin-content-irrelevant?p=437734&viewfull=1#post437734), but besides only reives we will continue to make adjustments as needed to coalition assignments and other existing content. (I will make a separate post to explain about this.)


It's not possible to play with a small amount of people
I understand the need for the option of being able to play with a small amount of people as well as the need for ways to obtain new equipment with a small amount of people, and we are putting a very high priority to implement and adjust content so that it be done with a small group of players or solo over time.

In the upcoming version update we will be adding support for low-manning reives and adding new equipment that can be exchanged for Bayld, as well as other ways to address this, but I would like to apologize for not being able to have these ready yet.

We've also seen feedback posted which mentions that top players are clearing the high level content and seeing players obtain brand-new gear is upsetting because it's not possible to play all the time and it won't be possible to obtain that equipment.

We will not be making adjustments so that equipment can be obtained at the same time and pace as the top players, but we will be adding elements where you can obtain equipment close to it by spending a bit of time, and also once some time passes we will be adjusting the content difficulty, making it easier to clear. We would like to make an environment where it's possible to play with a variety of styles.



Sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope this serves to explain about the thought process behind content levels and items levels, as well as answer the questions that have been brought up.
---

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Below is an in-depth response from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to content levels and item levels.

It's probably just me, but I like his new... "assertive"(?) tone.

At any rate...


Also, the current UI system used in FINAL FANTASY XI was not created for levels to go above 99

Interesting that you added the "current" qualifier. Makes it sound like you have ideas on something further down the road.


Amongst the equipment available before Adoulin, there were items that exceeded item level 100, and while there are aspects that make it difficult to determine, it will become easier to understand as more and more items with item levels are introduced.

I'd be curious to see what the "content level" of pre-Adoulin (and even pre-99) gear looks like, once the algorithms for determining it coalesce more. I'd be curious about this in spite of the fact that such information would have no impact on gameplay (as new gear's content level will).


In the event that the person implementing these things were to change, it’s extremely important for them to prepare the proper content and item stats following the content level difficulty and stat curve.

This is another indicator of "taking the long view" with regards to development, which again heartens me.


As an example, as a response to feedback that mentioned content difficulty and item stats did not match, it will now become possible to accurately assess this, and it will also be possible to judge more accurately what kind of content is being implemented for a certain level, whether more variations are necessary, and what content's difficulty needs adjusting.

Hallelujah!

All in all, I'm satisfied with what I'm hearing now, at least for the time being. Thank you.

[Raksha]

What item level will updated REMs be and when can we expect to see those changes?

[Zhronne]

So then what were our options?

Below are the two plans:


Expand equipment variation laterally
This would be preserving the original style of the game up until now.
Keeping relics, mythics, and empyreans at the top, add gear that can be used depending on the situation without creating higher tiers of equipment. No changes to the level 99 cap.


Boost equipment variation vertically
This is the current plan.
Add equipment that surpasses relics, mythics, and empyrean. Player level cap of 99 remains unchanged, but growth takes place via equipment.

This is exactely the big "mistake" behind all the negative feedback Seekers of Adoulin is receiving, mainly this new Item Level thing.
They're all consequences of this choice which clearly had been planned who knows how long ago and now it's way too late to revert it.

Choice number 1) would have been a much better choice and way more coherent with what FFXI has always been these past 11 years.
I've already said it but let me repeat it. People kept playing FFXI for so long because of how unique and different FFXI was compared to other MMORPGs, not because they were expecting some new game director to come and make FFXI look like another generic post-WoW MMO.
You would have been able to release new and better gear, but the differences would have been much smaller and you wouldn't have needed to adjust RMEs to this scale, you wouldn't have made old content irrelevant, leaving players a much wider choice of events to play.
I'm sure everybody noticed how people are slowly getting bored of spamming Reives and Menapo, right?

Also, this post is based on the premise that somehow the level cap HAD to be increased and Item Level was the only way.
Who says?
Really, who says?
Level cap stayed at 75 for how long, 7 years? 8 years? And still the game managed to release successful expansion packs without touching the level cap.
Why exactely was it necessary to go through all of this?
Because from Matsui's post what we get is that Level Cap had to be increased AT ALL COSTS and item level was the only option. This is preposterous.



This item level system just doesn't work, it's crappy, it doesn't fit a game like FFXI and it doesn't take into consideration the fact that people swaps gear constantly.
This is such a huge game-breaking change, I don't really see why it had to come down to this.
All the things you guys wanted to do and to achieve could have been easily achieved, to a lesser and much more fitting scale, without all these annoying changes.
Item level will never, never never possibly be an alternative to Character Level. Experience Points is something that anybody could obtain anytime with any sort of group without having to worry about it. It just took a bit of time and patience.
This will never be the same with gear, no matter how you "adjust" content and make it easier to obtain certain items a few months after content has been released.



I have no more words to express how much I feel sad and disappointed by these changes, I think I've literally lost all hope for the future of this game I've been spending so much of my life on for the past 9+ years.

[Zirael]

Greetings,

Below is an in-depth response from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to content levels and item levels.

---
Matsui here.

Thanks so much for all the feedback about item levels and content levels.

I've been answering questions on this topic and have discussed this in the past, but I'd like to take this opportunity to talk more about it.
[...]
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope this serves to explain about the thought process behind content levels and items levels, as well as answer the questions that have been brought up.
---
Thank you for that Mr Matsui, but I'm sure a lot of people are wondering one thing, actually: when are the R/E/M updates coming? I know in the other topic you said there would be no more yearly or 6-monthly roadmaps to prevent dissapointment, but R/E/M owners are disappointed already. Without any timeframe, it looks like nothing is being done about that. Oh, and Cait Sith, 2 years by now, was it? Without any roadmap released you are free not to bother with any long term plans for the game beyond "so what can we throw in for the next update?". As paying customers, we want to know where this game is heading to now, so that we can decide if it is still worth playing despite luckluster content being released for now. Ask any Red Mage or Rune Fencer and you'll know what I mean.

[Kraggy]

Interesting that you added the "current" qualifier. Makes it sound like you have on something further down the road.
He's not saying that at all, what he says right after clearly explains that 'current' in this context means "as it is now", there's nothing to suggest there's a veiled hint that they have any intention of changing it: his entire comment is a blunt "ain't gonna happen" regarding raising the level cap again.

[sweetidealism]

It's not possible to play with a small amount of people
I understand the need for the option of being able to play with a small amount of people as well as the need for ways to obtain new equipment with a small amount of people, and we are putting a very high priority to implement and adjust content so that it be done with a small group of players or solo over time.
[/list]

This is great, but please try your best to make content that cannot ONLY be done with a small amount of people.

As an example, in Salvage II, as you increase the size of your group, the event becomes far more difficult to complete because you only end up spending more time removing Pathos. Much as I do love the event, I still found this to be a little disappointing, and now find myself yearning for the large scale salvage I knew and loved. Although it's nice to be able to do it reliably with 3 people, I wish that at least one of the new areas had been designed for an alliance of 12-18 people so that players would have that (viably be an) option.
(Maybe there's still a chance for a "Salvage III" that caters to larger groups?)

Basically, if possible, then I'd like to see there be large and small scale versions of most if not all events, similar to how Legion has 18-man and 36-man settings!

[Byrth]

I am going to third or fourth the general "the massive blowback from the community was obviously a result of you choosing the wrong option" sentiment.

Give us RME updates now. I am looking forward to them more than any of the things you named.

Why give us mediocre content with mid-high gimmicky difficulty that will eventually be lowered by nerfs anyway? Any fresh account could farm a few thousand bayld, get carried along by his friends to three tojil wins, and buy the best h2h in the game.

[Zhronne]

And also the limited amount of content. I think the majority of people are already bored of spamming Reives (they stopped doing them) or Assignments. Wildkeepers Reive never got much love, Skirmish was broken. Basically all people do are Plasm farming and Delve Megabosses, and the frequency of Plasm Farming runs are greatly reduced compared to the past, at least on my server.
Maybe it has something to do with how slow you farm Plasm on normal menapo runs compared to how much you can get on boss runs.

This is all a consequence, a result of their choice to go the "item level" way. Clearly they had already planned it when they released the expansion.
They should have gone for option one. This way we would have had awesome alternatives to RME weapons, new gear, new content but AT THE SAME TIME we would still have had the option of doing old content, which would still have been relevant, to some extent.

There was no need at all to increase the level cap, be it through level or through the crappy solution of the item level.

And it's sad to acknowledge this because it's pretty clear that despite all the feedback we could possibly give in the most constructive and polite way, it's way too late. Too much of the expansion has been planned around the core concept of "Item Level" and they can't turn back now, it's way too late for that.
And it's sad, so sad, pure sadness.

No matter how much they will work to "fix" things now or to look for a better compromise, they won't be able to change that initial choice which was absolutely wrong and completely incoherent with what FFXI has been for the past 11 years.
After doing similar mistakes with Abyssea and after them greatly criticizing it for one reason or another, you'd be leaning to think they learned their lesson.
This change is happening close to the launch of FFXIV ARR, just like the other one (level cap increase, Abyssea etc) happened around the launch of FFXIV 1.0.
Now is this a coincidence and I'm a bad, paranoid person for thinking about it, or maybe there's more than meets the eye?

I feel so sad atm, really, the knowledge that they couldn't possibly fix this even if they wanted to is really hard on me.

[Sarick]

Why not increase the level cap?
To be extremely frank, increasing the level cap was never an option.

So then what were our options?

Below are the two plans:

Expand equipment variation laterally
This would be preserving the original style of the game up until now.
Keeping relics, mythics, and empyreans at the top, add gear that can be used depending on the situation without creating higher tiers of equipment. No changes to the level 99 cap.

Boost equipment variation vertically
This is the current plan.
Add equipment that surpasses relics, mythics, and empyrean. Player level cap of 99 remains unchanged, but growth takes place via equipment.

This is where the game went down hill. Over train wrecked the game. It was even stated in the bolded text that the game was changed to suit the new system. There is no longer a sense of positive progression just more Gear gear gear gear to fill the mog house. Stuff that each update will get outdated. Players who used to level up for power made did so for skill.

Like I said you guys COULD'VE extended on the merit system and this would've allow us to develop without GEAR progression. It wouldn't have created this MESS we have now. I put a line through what ruined the game to make a point. The developers chose the wrong direction IMHO and it made the game much less enjoyable. It restricted everyone to getting new gear and split the player base to the point where you need to kiss serious arse to participate if you're not up to snuff.

The MERIT system with the right quest and categories would suffice. A simple +1 percent +2% +3% +4% stat boost and other categories would've made it possible for across the board growth. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE. There could be meny other catgories and growth. You could even have your difficulty growth without gear using a system like this. Quest and NMs would allow the players to upgrade categories.

These fights could randomly drop upgrade items for RME and other upgrades. However when players who've never defeated the boss are in party at that stage the bonuses are BOOSTED.

To put it frankly, the developers didn't explore all options be it by mistake r the lack of creativity. Needless to say it has damaged the reputation and left a stale taste in some players. This has caused them to leave or think about leaving. It's like food when people say this. I want something that'll stick to my bones. They're saying they want something filling. The item upgrade system lacks insight you get a piece upgrade it then throw it out each stage. In general this creates a dilemma that all work is for naught.

Most people aren't motivated to see their work thrown away. Look at the game "Quest for Glory" you could transfer your character stats and all to each new expansion. The only difference was that when you got to the next one you was weaker when the baseline stats where raised. This same system could've been utilized in the merit quest system. You would've had players addicted to this type of upgrading.

To end this NM's and quest that would be used to unlock the scaling system instead of ITEM levels. All in all I think SE made a poor choice with the item progression. No matter how apologist swing it there where other alternatives that would've kept the addictive game play we're used to without completely breaking the game and spitting the player base.


We've also calculated the necessary parameters you will need to combat these monsters and decided the stats for Adoulin equipment, which is why we've established item levels to make them references for equipment strength.
The meaning behind content levels and items levels
Basically, we would like you to use content levels and items levels as a reference when challenging content.

Though it's a reference, we understand there are aspects that can be covered by certain strategies and ways of playing as well as equipment that is used/collected for their special stats and properties, so this is NOT something that is saying "you definitely cannot do this content without this item level."

You relay this to the developers let them THINK about using the merit system as a scaling alternative instead of item based scaling. You'll not only save the players frustration but save them valuable mog house space. It's also recreate an addictive game that doesn't force the expansion (other then the quest and boss fights) while obsoleting older content.

This can be fixed now if item progression stops HERE without much backlash. People can still upgrade their RME's and DELVE gear but their growth would be tied to their character. Not forcing them to wear gear they don't want or throwing stuff away. All the item level system did was decrease the value of gear we owned by making the game force fodder gear.

[Kojo]

His comment about having two choices and him choosing #2 (R/M/Es taking a backseat, NOT preserving the original style of the game) is likely to cause more outrage. Secondly, the current UI can display up to lv 255, if memory serves, people used to do it all the time on private servers.

We want to play FFXI, the game we've enjoyed for years, not something new with 2002 graphics.

[Sarick]

His comment about having two choices and him choosing #2 (R/M/Es taking a backseat, NOT preserving the original style of the game) is likely to cause more outrage. Secondly, the current UI can display up to lv 255, if memory serves, people used to do it all the time on private servers.

We want to play FFXI, the game we've enjoyed for years, not something new with 2002 graphics.

Everything you said could've been handled fully with the merit based scaling quest. It could be done without increasing the level caps or creating new gear/items to stuff our already overfilled mog safe. Not only that but each job could be independently upgraded allowing people MASSIVE amounts of growth that sticks with them.

Even neat side grades that unlock traits on other jobs. Say you have RDM leveled you can unlock magic accuracy bonus. Almost as much as getting all characters to level 99 with limit breakers. Instead of limits breaker quest a new merit breaker quest for each job would unlock.

This would empower the characters by not creating a situation where you MUST constantly upgrade gear to grow. Something most people hate. There is already to much crap in out mog safe.

It's simple PUT SCALING IN THE MERIT OPTIONS.

[Kincard]

Also echoing the "give us a timeframe for REM updates" and the "item levels are a bad idea" sentiment. I thought the dev team understood the complaint when people got worked up over REM changes, but it's like Matsui doesn't care about any of the posts at all. It's more or less the same as when Tanaka was in charge, it's just that this time we'll get advance warning before we get bad patches.

Obviously its up to the dev team to decide what they want to do with their game, all I want to say is that that idea they have does not interest me in the slightest.

[Kojo]

Everything you said could've been handled fully with the merit based scaling quest. It could be done without increasing the level caps or creating new gear/items to stuff our already overfilled mog safe. Not only that but each job could be independently upgraded allowing people MASSIVE amounts of growth that sticks with them.

Even neat side grades that unlock traits on other jobs. Say you have RDM leveled you can unlock magic accuracy bonus. Almost as much as getting all characters to level 99 with limit breakers. Instead of limits breaker quest a new merit breaker quest for each job would unlock.
Agreed, my suggestion would be for SE to close SoA content, only allow passage into Adoulin but nowhere beyond, and revert all new weapons to the damage rating of the Relic of that type temporarily (eg, Bereaver, Senbaak/+1 = 143 dmg), then scrap the current plans and finish launching FFXIV, come August, start work on the SoA reboot, more in line with the original style of the game.

[Sarick]

Agreed, my suggestion would be for SE to close SoA content, only allow passage into Adoulin but nowhere beyond, and revert all new weapons to the damage rating of the Relic of that type temporarily (eg, Bereaver, Senbaak/+1 = 143 dmg), then scrap the current plans and finish launching FFXIV, come August, start work on the SoA reboot, more in line with the original style of the game.

It's not going to happen they've already put that gear in the wild. It already broke what could've been when they created item scaling. Unless they give players free unlocks to match the scaling they already have people are going to be extremely upset either way.

Right now the only thing we can hope for is a complete 180 in the decision making process. If there is anyone who supports scaling in merits speak up otherwise the developers will continue done this distructive item based scaling that further degrades the will to play.

It is destructive.

1. Creates a class system that separates the player base.

2. Creates more content to fill the already limited storage.

3. Forces players to utilize only the current expansion for main growth.

4. All gear content becomes fodder each passing update as its obsoleted in favor of replacements.

5. It's not motivating. Growth is one directional you need to get a specific set or sets of gear to scale up.

I used to be able to mix and match sets from all content. I could generally do well with anything that had good stats. Now we're tied into specific gear sets as a requirement. There is no longer a sense of individuality or personal taste. If you want to get stronger older content isn't even an option. It should just be stored to collect DUST or thrown out.

I'm not motivated to upgrade because in a few months I'll need to start over upgrading yet another exotic item just so it can get outdated (OBLITERATED) again. At least with a merit based scaling I know that the work I invest in my character will remain there no matter what gear I wear. If this was the direction the developers took people won't be all restricted to new content.

There doesn't need to be this jump in gear levels. People should be allowed much more diverse setups. If the system was reset back to the basics players would have expanded gear opportunities and the growth would be allocated elsewhere.

The biggest issue is the opinions of players who flat out cancel instead of speaking up.

SE look at your subscription numbers, if the numbers are dropping FAST it's because of the design choices are failing. Please listen and make the game better you can't fix this broken system jus abandon it and give the players another approach they'll enjoy. If you don't pull this broken concept out your just digging your grave deeper. Addictive game play will always win over a frustrating world full of boring endless throw away content. If the merit system was the place scaling was sent to then players across the board would benefit in a positive way.

Making reeves easier isn't going to fix the glaring issues I mention above because we're still being CRAMMED into concepts we don't enjoy. The customer pays the developers to make this game fun and addictive. If it's not working and the subscription base is suffering because of it REMOVE and replace it with something people want. Scrap the garbage item growth even your hardest of hardcore are starting to speak up. Get the hint.

[Kojo]

It's not going to happen they've already put that gear in the wild. It already broke what could've been when they created item scaling. Unless they give layers free unlocks to match the scaling they already have people are going to be extremely upset either way.

Right now the only thing we can hope for is a complete 180 in the decision making process. If there is anyone who supports scaling in marits speak up otherwise the developers will continue done this distructive item based scaling that further degrades the will to play.

It is destructive.

1. Creates a class system that separates the player base.

2. Creates more content to fill the already limited storage.

3. Forces players to utilize only the current expansion for main growth.

4. All gear content becomes fodder each passing update as its obsoleted in favor of replacements.

5. It's not motivating. Growth is one directional you need to get a specific set or sets of gear to scale up.

I used to be able to mix and match sets from all content. I could generally do well with anything that had good stats. Now we're tied into specific gear sets as a requirement. There is no longer a sense of individuality or personal taste. If you want to get stronger oder content isn't even an option and should just be stored to collect DUST.

I'm not motivated to upgrade because in a few months I'll need to start over to upgrade another exotic item just so it can get outdated (OBLITERATED) again. At least with a merit based scaling I know that the work I invest in my character will remain there no matter what gear I wear. If this was the direction the developers took people won't be all restricted to new content.


The biggest issue is the player opinions of players who cancel instead of speaking up.

SE look at your subscription numbers, if the numbers are dropping FAST it's because of the design choices are failing. Please listen and make the game better. Addictive game play will always win over a frustrating world full of boring endless throw away content. If the merit system was the place scaling was sent to then players across the board would benefit in a positive way.

I know it's very unlikely, but I don't think it's impossible and at this point, I don't think it could hurt much.

Also, the fact that you can fall 6-10 levels or more by taking off a weapon you got in a day and putting on one that took months, or years for some, doesn't sit well with me.

[Jerbob]

Expand equipment variation laterally
This would be preserving the original style of the game up until now.
Keeping relics, mythics, and empyreans at the top, add gear that can be used depending on the situation without creating higher tiers of equipment. No changes to the level 99 cap.


Boost equipment variation vertically
This is the current plan.
Add equipment that surpasses relics, mythics, and empyrean. Player level cap of 99 remains unchanged, but growth takes place via equipment.
This is the root of the problem I have with the whole item level idea. Vertical progression is a TERRIBLE idea for FFXI. As you've already said, it destroys how things have worked for the entirety of the game so far. I understand that you guys want to mix things up a bit and do something radical, but this really is not appropriate. The horizontal progression in FFXI is something extremely positive about the game - sure, it has some drawbacks, but everything does, and as a design paradigm it generally works. I can dabble in a few events, do something different each day or week, and work towards things that aren't mutually excusive while having fun in a varied game.

I do not want to have to replace all of my new equipment every 2 months. I do not want to exclusively spam one piece of content forever in order to move up to the next tier which is already outdated by the time I reach it. I do not want the people I play with who have more or less time than me to perpetually be several "gear tiers" above or below me. I do not want to feel like I'm constantly "in a race" to stay ahead of the New Content Wave, lest I be drowned in the next update and forced down the gear tiers.

I appreciate the in-depth description that you have provided for us, but my answer is No, I do not want this.

[Oddwaffle]

Why not increase the level cap?
To be extremely frank, increasing the level cap was never an option.

So then what were our options?

Below are the two plans:


Expand equipment variation laterally
This would be preserving the original style of the game up until now.
Keeping relics, mythics, and empyreans at the top, add gear that can be used depending on the situation without creating higher tiers of equipment. No changes to the level 99 cap.


Boost equipment variation vertically
This is the current plan.
Add equipment that surpasses relics, mythics, and empyrean. Player level cap of 99 remains unchanged, but growth takes place via equipment.


I believe that there were quite a few who recall that there was a lot of feedback in the past about content difficulty and item stats not matching up, and a lot of equipment having similar stats.

We had come to see the limits of continuing to expand equipment variation laterally, and due to the fact that it wouldn't be possible to change monster strength without character growth as well as the fact that it would be difficult to make a variety of exciting content, the result would turn into only expanding areas, which we did not think was desirable.

As a result based on thorough discussions, while considering the current state of the game as well as the future, we decided to boost the variation of equipment vertically.

There were also a number of other reasons why increasing the level cap was not added as an option.

As I am sure you are all aware, increasing the level cap would cause a number of balance related issues to arise, such as whether the support jobs would remain at 49 or if they could be allowed to go higher, limitations on job abilities and job traits, and also how high the staged increases of job traits would go.

Also, the current UI system used in FINAL FANTASY XI was not created for levels to go above 99, so in order to display parameters for levels over 99 it would be necessary to completely reconstruct portions of the UI.

---

I don't like the direction the game is heading. It took a lot of effort for me to obtain a relic weapon and now Matsui is saying they will introduce more equipments to surpass relic, empy and mythic weapons? So even with the update to REM, FFXI will soon get more items that will render those weapons obsolete?

I don't really feel like playing anymore. Maybe I'll take a break and play something else until I think FFXI is worth playing again.

[Masamune11]

What Matsui doesn't understand is that it makes more sense to find a leach party (especially now when most of the top players have the top gear and can afford leachers) then to spend countless hours trying to get gear that isn't as good as Delve. Leaching NM kills and doing plasm farming is WAY WAY WAY WAY too easy. You already basically ruined what you were shooting for. These July and August updates (besides the storyline) are meaningless. Nobody is going to do anything but Delve when it's easy to leach and the other content is inferior.

Your big mistake was making the best gear content require 18 people. You're into your 11th year of this game. 18 people party requirements should NEVER be an option.

How do you guys not see this?

[Belmonts]

More than ever I would so much wish there is a dislike button to simply express ourselves about what do we think about this Vertical Boost Equipment. Is ridiculous.

It mostly states: "R/E/M users thanks for grinding for years, but your unique weapons, with unique models, unique names, unique ws', are now outdated with a weapon that its model looks like an every day Joe can have, just with an insane base damage. ta-ta"

So sad.

[Zhronne]

Participation on FFXI forums is so limited that it would hardly make a difference Belmonts (compare it to the level of participation you see on FFXIV forums).
Even if 300 people were to press a dislike button on Matsui's post, it's "too late" to change things now.
What Matsui expressed is a core concept upon which they based the ENTIRE EXPANSION, not just what we saw now, but what's about to come (which is not ready yet, but it's been "thought" and conceptualized for sure).

So yeah... this is the saddest part for me. It's something so huge, so big, and yet even if we all agreed it sucks (alas we don't) they would be unable to go back now, it's too late...
Sigh, pure sadness. It's such a frustrating feeling.

[pretre]

maybe im missing something but I didn't read any mention that there was going to be any r/e/m updates at all, did I just miss something as there is allot of posts here asking when r/e/m updates will be

[Umichi]

Item levels help us break past level 99 basically SE is saying Item level is the limit breaker on our damage right?


Edit: and defense maybe?

[Umichi]

also because if they are going to introduce regular level 150 monsters (which would be scary as they'd be on par with NM or something from delve) they would check as IT++ everytime.... makes sense to me they balance the xp since people who still farm merits lose xp still... and even if they don't they use XP to stay caped and maybe just use level 99 as a xp tank thingy.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't know what you just said kid, but you're special.

[pretre]

maybe im missing something but I didn't read any mention that there was going to be any r/e/m updates at all, did I just miss something as there is allot of posts here asking when r/e/m updates will be
sry to quote myself but I still don't see anything about r/e/m update

[Zhronne]

It was mentioned by Matsui in another thread, with example of how Almace, Excalibur and Burtgang would have been automatically updated

[darkhorror]

Seems to me that it was the amount of vertical expansion that happened in such a short time that really upset things.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I'd just like to once again state my only real complaint about this "item level" idea: Encumbrance. You insist on throwing monsters at us with moves that not only remove our equipment but prevent us from re-equipping it again. This is already a death sentence for most jobs (the instructions for the MUM quest "Research: Rala Waterways" may as well be "go die and lose experience points," which tends to be the complete opposite of "fun and relaxation"). And now you're essentially saying that these moves can now effectively remove 10+ levels in an instant, with zero recourse?

[Camate]

Greetings,

Below is a follow-up from Producer Akihiko Matsui.



Hello, Matsui here.

Thank you for all of the replies.

I'm not quite sure if I will be able to explain this properly by writing it, but I would like to make a follow-up post to my previous comment.

Many of you that continue to play and enjoy FINAL FANTASY XI have at some point in time cast off your shyness and became players who made a breakthrough by forming parties and participating in pick-up groups.
　
At the current point in time, Delve is the highest level content (from both a difficulty and reward standpoint, as well as a cost perspective), but whether we should make this content something that needs an alliance is definitely something that has been discussed within the team.　

Players feel like the threshold for entry is set quite high when taking into consideration the current trend of how people play now. However, since there were suggestions to make content similar to Dynamis, we ultimately decided to proceed by making alliance-based content.

Of course, with recent MMOs, it's possible to reach high levels while playing solo and players aren't spending a lot of time making parties because of the ability to auto-group up for large battles. While it definitely makes it easy to play, we are lacking too many things to be able to reach that point.

We have two goals in mind:
Create content that will excite players enough to join up with others again.
Create content that lets you discover the fun aspects because others are with you.
From the beginning, and with these goals in mind, the staff strove to make Delve into this type of content.

With that said, in regards to Delve, there is no need for all players to be able to clear it at the same exact time. Once the top players have played through it, the staff would like to make it so a larger number of players are able to complete it as well.　
　
On the other hand, we feel it's necessary to increase the amount of content for solo and low-man groups immediately, as well as supplement them with equipment that is not exactly on par with Delve but is of a significant content level.

The gap between players that have been playing this content and those who are trying to catch up is increasingly widening.

With that said, instead of rushing to add on to Delve, our highest priority is to spend that time to create other variations of content to supplement the content (item) levels (similar to how there was a variety of content at level 75 and 99 in the past). Also, we feel the need to first create content to revamp (enhance) relics, mythics, empryeans, and job-specific armor.

While I'm repeating myself, we would like to fill in the gaps that have been created by adding content where you can achieve your goals by putting your time in, and adding content choices so you can progress with the play style that suits you (for example, skipping content that you're not interested in).

While it's important to proceed with the original plans, I feel it's also extremely important to prioritize implementation based on the feedback of those that are playing right now, so please let us know what content you would like to play solo or low-man and other feedback as well.　

We really look forward to reading your sincere opinions.

[Raksha]

I would like a way to farm plasm that doesnt require PLDs. Preferably in a group of 6 so you only have to find 1 brd and 1 cor instead of 2-3 of each.


EDIT: and dont anyone give me crap about finding someone to sac the NMs for 45 minutes. That's just as retarded.

[Alpheus]

tyvm for realying the info Camate god knows its not easy. As to what Matsui said, Idk what he's trying to pull off w/ the Item lvls and whatnot but I'm willing to find out since the people i play with are still playing. As a WHM I'm just very....idk I suppose just unenthused since the only long term goal I have as far as my job is making a Yagrush. It's the only thing that can affect my performance to a severe degree so when I see my lsmates clamoring to get us to the point where we can do the Mega Bosses I don't feel as enthusiastic for the item rewards despite being enthusiastic from the perspective of wanting to see my friends grow and accomplish their goals.

So I suppose my question would be, will there be anything new added as far as the healing component of Magic? Since NMs are now to the point where they can set off super strong attacks and we're only gonna increase in power from gear, which means no room for growth in HP levels which means no room for growth as far as having any room for error as a Healer. While I understand such difficulty is intended to some degree, if I'm straddling the knife that often I can see myself having to take breaks from being WHM so often. This isn't an option for most since WHM is always a job that's relegated to the people "stuck with it".

tldr: WHM is becoming a tad unfun and I'm worried if said trend continues.

[Zhronne]

With that said, instead of rushing to add on to Delve, our highest priority is to spend that time to create other variations of content to supplement the content (item) levels (similar to how there was a variety of content at level 75 and 99 in the past). Also, we feel the need to first create content to revamp (enhance) relics, mythics, empryeans, and job-specific armor.
Didn't you say in the past that RME would have been automatically updated? Now you're talking about specific content to revamp it?
Need something to keep player "busy" right, otherwise they'll complain about the lack of content and you'll be under pressure to develop it.
While releasing more things that, while not being trial of the magian, have similarly retarded conditions is very fast for you to develop.
Smart!
Sarcasm aside, I'm at least glad to learn that you guys are appearently working on revamping job specific gear. Altough your post is so generic I don't want to get my hopes too high yet.

But aside from that, what does all of this post have to do with the constructive criticism you've been receiving over this thread? It's almost as if you didn't read it at all.
Not that I was hoping for some surprising reply, after all things have gone too far already with the mistake you and your development team did and that you perfectly expressed in your previous post (excessive vertical itemization, versus the previous model that worked very well for FFXI for over 11 years).

[Riggs]

i really like this new attitude from SE nice to see their listening to their player base and about to develope some low man content for the expansion, please also consider relic weapons upgrades from level 95 and the expense to get them to 99 before your new upgrades kick in, i love my relic dagger but can i justify the 60 mil to upgrade to 99 to continue using it, probably not, so there goes 6 months of my play time down the drain

[Babygyrl]

I would like a way to farm plasm that doesnt require PLDs. Preferably in a group of 6 so you only have to find 1 brd and 1 cor instead of 2-3 of each.


EDIT: and dont anyone give me crap about finding someone to sac the NMs for 45 minutes. That's just as retarded.

i 100% agree with this, i like that content has been added that you need to be in a group but a full alliance is sometimes hard to come by these days a 6 man option or bc type thing would be nice. though i still like to see alliance type options, having low man groups with ALMOST on par gear (but not 100% equal of course) is a great alternative for casual players and please hurry up with R/E/M revamp please!

[Kaeviathan]

Awwww nuts, those horrible looking delve equipment will still be the best gear after the update. I really dislike the Manibhozo armor set, and also the whole airlixirs requirement to increase the armor's rank and atrribute.

[Demon6324236]

I am almost happy with that, but something about it just feels off. You say you...
need to first create content to revamp (enhance) relics, mythics, empryeans, and job-specific armor.however it is not listed in your list of things coming. I suggest you put these on the top of your priority list now, finish it by July 9th, and win back at least a little trust from the people playing this game. If not, you will see more people leave I can almost assure you. As I have said before Matsui, you talk well, but your ability to turn those words into actions is lacking, unless something changes with that, this will end badly.

[Rwolf]

Greetings,

Below is a follow-up from Producer Akihiko Matsui.

.....

While it's important to proceed with the original plans, I feel it's also extremely important to prioritize implementation based on the feedback of those that are playing right now, so please let us know what content you would like to play solo or low-man and other feedback as well.

Things I would personally like to see become completely 6man, low-man and solo (completely underlined because some parts of the following I am aware are already.)

Zeni Notorious Monsters
Sealed Container Notorious Monsters
Moblin Maze Mongers
Campaign Ops Battlefields (Cracking Shells, Splitting Heirs, Plucking Wings, Fiat Lux)
Voidwatch
Assault
Nyzul Isle Investigation
Original Salvage
Legion

[Edyth]

Entry requirements are too high for Assault missions. It's easier to get 18 people for Delve than it is to get 3 people for Assault. I finished Assault and Assault journals long ago, but what I'm saying is just the fact of the current state of Assault. Assault is in worse shape than Delve.

[bluethao5]

Already a place to farm plasm lowman, its called Matamata. Takes 3 to 4 ppl.

[bluethao5]

Give us content to use 18 Black Mages with Meteor..
Give Red Mage something worthwhile to do with that Enfeebling skill that hasn't been meaningful since 2006.

Finish the tower pvp system that was supposed to be in place in "Past" zones.
Idea? FFXI version of Dota sounds fun. Do it! FFXI has always lacked the actual "Fun" factor.

Fix Chocobo racing. C'mon even if you steal content from FFVII, we'd love it. We're the fanboys who still play this after 11 years, relax about wondering if we want the "new", let us experience the "Old" on an MMO scale.

Lots of good ideas, look around! Why introduce monstrousity when there is so much failed content that just needs some player feedback to improve? You're on the right track about reworking failed content, go for it! We're behind you all the way!

[Sekhmet]

Well, you said to give our two cents about content we want to low man, and my biggest wish would be to be able to low man Arch Dynamis Lord. Since you have stated that the REM weapons, even with the upgrade, will be lower power then the new delve weapons, how about throwing us a bone and making it easier to get the REMs and upgrade them?

In that same vein, how about either lowering the alexandrite needed to obtain a mythic or make alexandrite fall from the sky like rain? At this point I don't think limiting players from obtaining as many mythic as they want by dragging out the process is a valid strategy anymore. I'm not talking eliminating the alex completely, but how about by 50%? 15,000 of anything is still a sizeable chunk of time and/or gil to aquire.

[Zumi]

I would like a way to farm plasm that doesnt require PLDs. Preferably in a group of 6 so you only have to find 1 brd and 1 cor instead of 2-3 of each.


EDIT: and dont anyone give me crap about finding someone to sac the NMs for 45 minutes. That's just as retarded.

Pick up plasm farm groups always want a sac, people don't want to take pld.

[Osmond]

Delve

Low man is a must especially those who are getting into it cause I know ppl who do have their weapon or gear will not go after the other NMs since they mostly go after matamata. There should be a option to where if in a 6 man pty they should get bigger bonus on bayld, plasm, and KI as the win while a alliance should get airlixirs & beads, but the difficulty will be harder. No point in getting gear drops if u wanted ppl to farm plasm. In the fracture they should remove mobs to farm and replace w/ just NMs to kill. By doing that if u do kill them the bonus should be like 2,000 plasm each kill as a way to replace the mobs. Give them a reason to go after the final boss more.

Mythic

Please please nerf it to where it's easier to obtain mythic weapons. No one still isn't doing it, but doing relic and empyrean more.

[Keyoku]

As one of (few, I think) players that really enjoyed Meebles and Skirmish both, I wish both of those got harder and that both of those would also drop plasm. Revamping old content would be pretty easy if you guys added conversion between say Meeble points, Assault points, Nyzul tokens, etc to plasm. It wouldn't have to be on par with farming plasm off of 5NMs + Mega Bosses. Even if it was just a fraction of that kind of plasm, it sjould still revitalize old content for soloers/lowman groups. You kinda did it for Voidwatch, you kinda did it for Kindred Seals/Crest, why not do it for plasm? I'd personally prefer doing 3-4 Skirmishes for some plasm, then shouting 10-45min to get good players on the right jobs for a Mega Boss farm. It jsut feels like doing any lowman content atm is wasted effort when the same amount of work could be going into more plasm/airlixir farming.

Also what Rwolf mentioned. Lowman content should just drop the "need 3-6 ppl to enter" requirement. Being unable to spontaneously enter Salvage/Assaults/Meebles/Skirmish/et al as a duo when bored is quite the drag. Meebles had it right, too. If you did go 6/6, you got more points, but you still could go as little as 3/6. Why not keep up the pattern? Allow us to enter anything as a single player, just increase the yield by going with more ppl.

tl;dr:
Consider a conversion factor between currencies/point systems akin to Kindred Seals/Crest exchange. Allow us to us X amount of IS/AN/CP/Cruor/Meeble Points/Einherjar Ichor/Assault points to turn into plasm thus incentivising low key players to branch out and did into events they really enjoy(ed).

Drop any minimum party member requirements for any event. Allow us to attempt to solo Nyzul Isle/Assaults/Einherjar/Salvage/Meebles/Skirmish just like you allow us to enter Dyna (which flourished for a good 2 years+ after you revamped it and was possibly (I think) the best gil/hour ratio for a majority of players).

[Nebo]

Many of you that continue to play and enjoy FINAL FANTASY XI have at some point in time cast off your shyness and became players who made a breakthrough by forming parties and participating in pick-up groups......

Of course, with recent MMOs, it's possible to reach high levels while playing solo and players aren't spending a lot of time making parties because of the ability to auto-group up for large battles. While it definitely makes it easy to play, we are lacking too many things to be able to reach that point.

A couple of comments regarding group forming:

Leaders

FFXI is a complex game with a lot of depth and a large learning curve. Because the game does not help you to form groups in any way (and in fact hinders you in many ways), the system fundamentally depends on group leaders.

FFXI needs group leaders to function. Without them, everything comes to a grinding halt....endgame....casual play...the economy....everything.

(That would be bad for business:eek:)

The overwhelming majority of the player base does not read forums or web sites to research information about FFXI. Most of us don't even have a solid, basic understanding of fundamental game mechanics.

Leading groups is the single most difficult task in all of Vana'diel...and the single greatest reason people sit around town afk just waiting for shouts, doing nothing. For most of us, is much too daunting a task. Most of FFXI players lack the skills, knowledge, or confidence needed to form a 6 man Party for en event....let alone putting the right 18 jobs and the right 18 people together, point them towards an event and lead the charge.

And in FFXI, we ask a LOT of our leaders. There are so many things a leader has to have expertise with and put up with (it is simply overwhelming to your average gamer):

Battle Strategies
All Alliance Job Roles
Human Resources Management
Loot Distribution
Conflict resolution
Scheduling
Organizing
Patience
Willingness to /shout or /yell for multiple hours upon hours just to get ONE alliance to do ONE event - This is a big one
Dealing with stress and pressure of alliance members expectations resting solely on YOUR shoulders.


The list goes on.

Here's the thing about these leaders...the people that Square Enix NEEDS to keep or this game will surely fall apart completely:

They are R/E/M holders.

And most put a lot of work into completing them...Cue SoA release and your new Dev team just "decided" to make NM drop weapons that surpass R/E/Ms in the name of "vertical progression."

If you do not correct this mistake...I suspect most of those group leaders will eventually quit. Because for years and years they did their job for you. Over and over and over and over. They overcame your game's group building design flaws, lead countless groups/linkshells and events while accomplishing those 99 R/E/Ms.

TLDR: R/E/M Holders need their shinnies to stay shiny and we need them to lead our groups. If you make them leave...FFXI dies. No question.

And did I read that right? You are thinking of developing new content to add ADDITIONAL TRIALS to upgrade REM weapons?

Seriously!? NO!

Job Adjustments

The other issue is job adjustments. Another major factor contributing to the difficulty of forming and finding groups for content is this: many people are passionate about playing and gearing jobs that aren't valuable in endgame content...only a handful of current jobs are worth an alliance slot in endgame events.

I am a Thief main. I do not enjoy playing on Bard at all. Guess what job I've been stuck on since Delve came out?...Mostly Bard.

^ This is what happens to people. They get stuck on jobs they DON'T want to play to get gear for the jobs they DO want to play...only they never get to PLAY the jobs they love and they get burnt out...eventually quitting.

A wider variety of jobs needs to be made viable in endgame content. Based on your stated goals, this should be priority number 1.

Making it easier for people to participate on the jobs that they love will invariably make them more motivated to form (and join) groups by virtue of being able to play the jobs that they love in endgame content...something they cannot do now.

If you can correct this (MAJOR, FUNDAMENTAL) design flaw, you will accomplish your goals just doing that alone.

[pretre]

wow now im lost lol. I went from reading post that said r/e/m gunna be poop after upgrade to just about to cancel my id after 6yrs , to reading this latest post now I feel maybe we might get heard. please please please make r/e/m weapons on par with delve weapons it really is a deal breaker with allot of people. I run 3 lses 1 is adl 1 is emp weapons and were lost atm because if r/e/m is a sub par weapon no one will want these weapons which means dyna aby and salvage all go bye bye. I like delve but you have taken to much from us to introduce it, if r/e/m = less than delve weapons its a start from scratch scenario it kinda feels like the ff we all been playing for years ends now and a new ffxi starts. well that was my last ditch attempt to get you to see it from allot of peoples perspective. also some 6 man plasma farm be nice
p.s. keeping r/e/m relavent doesn't mean no one will do delve, ihave relic great axe and I was in middle of pimping delve great sword dagger axe an soon gun, just let me keep the relic weapon that took me over a year to make. p.p.s oh yea the woe ws unlock idea everyone I know loved that idea
p.p.p.s. lol please put war on the plasma axe, makes no sense war can use plasma sword dagger club but not axe

[Byrth]

Actions speak louder than words. We keep hearing apologetic posts like this followed by zero policy changes. Do something.

[Raksha]

Actions speak louder than words. We keep hearing apologetic posts like this followed by zero policy changes. Do something.

this

10char

[Nebo]

Actions speak louder than words. We keep hearing apologetic posts like this followed by zero policy changes. Do something.

^ This.

My suggestion:

For the time being, put the pause button on development work for:


Mog Gardens
Monstrosity
Item level Exp /check update
Cutesy seasonal events.


And divert all available power to forward thrusters:

Job adjustments, balancing, making good on old promises.
Lowman Content Updates
R/E/M updates

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

So you want to abandon progress on content that's available for all players in favor of tweaks that only affect slim minorities?

[Nebo]

So you want to abandon progress on content that's available for all players in favor of tweaks that only affect slim minorities?

Did you read my post?

[Secondplanet]

i don't believe anything that SE says with dead lines and future releases

*Source* Cait sith and Atomos

[Kristal]

I'd just like to once again state my only real complaint about this "item level" idea: Encumbrance. You insist on throwing monsters at us with moves that not only remove our equipment but prevent us from re-equipping it again. This is already a death sentence for most jobs (the instructions for the MUM quest "Research: Rala Waterways" may as well be "go die and lose experience points," which tends to be the complete opposite of "fun and relaxation"). And now you're essentially saying that these moves can now effectively remove 10+ levels in an instant, with zero recourse?

I've done that one a few times on PUP, and even with the pet standing at a distance curing it still was 50/50 on actually killing it (usually due to enmity wipe causing pet to get agro for casting Dia II). This was before I got Alternator though. Now I'd just drop pet on it and grab a snack. Fortunately, the Encumbrance move is also the one you need for the task, so even if you die, you're essentially getting a free trip back to town and the exp loss is covered by the task reward.

[Kincard]

Actions speak louder than words. We keep hearing apologetic posts like this followed by zero policy changes. Do something.

Byrth always is able to sum up pretty much exactly what I want to say with great brevity.

Also adding that if REM needs to have additional trials, do not make them absurd like requiring the defeat of delve bosses 50 times/turning in 100 Bztavian Wings or whatever. A weapon that already costs ~100M+ to create should not need much more on top of it so I can have it be on par with weapons that players can farm in a few hours.

It would likely also be a bad idea to make it easier to obtain these weapons in any way just so you have an excuse to make the later trials harder. That would be completely missing the point because the same people bellyaching about REMs needing updates are very, very likely the same people that hate this new vertical progression system- people don't want to spend 500 hours obtaining a weapon just so other people can obtain the same weapon later in 10 hours. Players lacking REMs can call it self-absorbed or petty or whatever you want to, but I guarantee you that'll lose you a lot more customers than telling the people stuck on their quest to just suc it up and get a Delve weapon that'll give them the same functionality for a fraction of the investment.

[FrankReynolds]

Byrth always is able to sum up pretty much exactly what I want to say with great brevity.

Also adding that if REM needs to have additional trials, do not make them absurd like requiring the defeat of delve bosses 50 times/turning in 100 Bztavian Wings or whatever. A weapon that already costs ~100M+ to create should not need much more on top of it so I can have it be on par with weapons that players can farm in a few hours.

It would likely also be a bad idea to make it easier to obtain these weapons in any way just so you have an excuse to make the later trials harder. That would be completely missing the point because the same people bellyaching about REMs needing updates are very, very likely the same people that hate this new vertical progression system- people don't want to spend 500 hours obtaining a weapon just so other people can obtain the same weapon later in 10 hours. Players lacking REMs can call it self-absorbed or petty or whatever you want to, but I guarantee you that'll lose you a lot more customers than telling the people stuck on their quest to just suc it up and get a Delve weapon that'll give them the same functionality for a fraction of the investment.

SO basically you're saying make RME really good, but leave the content so that no one ever builds one again? That seems pretty pointless.

[Minikom]

With that said, instead of rushing to add on to Delve, our highest priority is to spend that time to create other variations of content to supplement the content (item) levels (similar to how there was a variety of content at level 75 and 99 in the past). Also, we feel the need to first create content to revamp (enhance) relics, mythics, empryeans, and job-specific armor.


Just no make this ridicously hard .... a 6 man event should be cool, always is hard to get 18 ppl proof of this is delve shouts, where ppl can take more 45 mins to find specific job or where pick up gruops cant do this because content is too hard and just 1-2 Linkshells for server can do it and monopolize prices and stuff.

[Spirachub]

Nice to see considerations for 6 man content. 18 man alliance while has a lot more people, it has it problems. And with the current populations of servers and language barrier between JPs and ENG speakers (let's face it, auto-translate is nice, but you can never convey a sophisticated battle plan through that.) It's almost impractical to focus on 18 man alliance content.

Not only it takes forever for pick up groups to form, it's also very job specific - because it's 18 man, mobs are designed to be take on for 18man. 18 man setups makes it very restricted on jobs selections - pld cor brd healers stunners most effective attackers only. Arguably there are less strategy involved than 6 man content due to the lack of flexibility.

This brings me to another problem i see on current delve. MNKs with formless strikes are owning the scene due to developers thinking it is a good idea to put high PDT monsters in there. whilst there are some strategies to lower the PDT, MNKs are still the most wanted job because of F.S. - speeding up the kill time, and kill time is crucial in the current design of delve if you challenge T1-5NM + mega boss in a single run. The content is making really killing the job balance right now.

Surely mobs with -PDT with method to remove the -PDT is so that players play their strategies around that. So why not increase the mobs actual defence value (or some other method that formless strikes can't get an overpowering advantage), instead of using PDT?

And I totally agree that we need a 6 man plasm farming mechanism!

[Kincard]

SO basically you're saying make RME really good, but leave the content so that no one ever builds one again? That seems pretty pointless.

They should make RME competitive like they said they would, I always had a problem with players being required to obtain REM weapons to qualify for endgame events so they should go back to being trophy weapons with good functionality, rather than completely dominant weapon where you suck if you don't have one.

I should've clarified a bit when I said I don't want to them adjust- I didn't mean to say they can't adjust it at all, but rather they shouldn't treat it with the "item level" gloves they seem to be planning to treat all events with. If they make it so that Mythics require 3000 Alexandrite and Empyreans require 100 metal plates they'll be completely missing the point of why people got annoyed about the change in the first place- the same people who were pissed about REMs being outdated are the same people who hate the new "newest content is incredibly exclusive and time consuming, make it completely obsolete 2 patches later" mentality they are adapting. Before you say reductions of that sort are implausible, think about how badly they neutered Legion, how they made 35s practically drop 100% in Salvage I and are basically completely destroying like half the content in the game.

A reasonable increase in HMP drop rates to combat Voidwatch disappearing, that is fine. Making Empyreans only require 100 plates + 10 rifts and then making you collect 20 Bztavian Wings to "balance" the road to your ilv120 Ukon, not so much. They'll lose those same exact players that were angry about the fact they invested a significant amount of time into those weapons to begin with.

[Chimerawizard]

I think of delve almost like old school Einherjar. Ya, you can get a pickup group for some low tier clears or to just farm Icor, but if you want to kill Odin, you will practically need to be in an LS that is focused on doing it.
[just without the 3day wait or the 9x clear to beat the boss]

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Did you read my post?

Let's see...



For the time being, put the pause button on development work for:


Mog Gardens
Monstrosity
Item level Exp /check update
Cutesy seasonal events.




Everyone with Seekers of Adoulin
Everyone
Everyone with Seekers of Adoulin
Everyone




And divert all available power to forward thrusters:

Job adjustments, balancing, making good on old promises.
Lowman Content Updates
R/E/M updates



Maybe 5-7 jobs
15%, maybe 20% of players
5%, maybe 10% of players


And I'm being generous here. So... yeah, I read you post.

[FrankReynolds]

Let's see...




Mog Gardens - No one is all that excited about
Monstrosity - People are mildly interested but would gladly wait until more important things are fixed
Item level Exp /check update - No one wants at all
Cutesy seasonal events - Seriously? Seriously? You think these are what's important? Really?





Job adjustments, balancing, making good on old promises.- This benefits all players on all jobs. Not 5-7. Literally everyone.
Lowman Content Updates - Again, this is for the benefit of everyone. Literally everyone.
5%, maybe 10% of players - This is the only part you got right and guess who that 5%-10% are? The people who run all your 18 person events.



Here, I edited your lists for accuracy's sake.

[Nebo]

Oh, I see. You read it, you just don't understand the greater significance of some of these things.

No worries. I'll explain.

Mog Gardens will allow you some new scenery to HELM in private and farm mostly useless things. Cute...maybe even fun...but mostly irrelevant. It is not something that will keep FFXI players online, playing and interested in the more core aspects of the game...like say...job adjustments would do.

Monstrosity is also a cute gimmick. Again, it may even be fun. But it's not something that should come before fixing some of the core game play mechanics that encompass almost all other content. It's not going to keep people playing and logged in like some more significant fixes would.

Item level exp checks are pointless for everyone post-level 99. If you can't see that..I'm not sure what I could say to make you understand.

Cutsey seasonal events - same thing. Fluff...cute...but not more important than fixing core elements that are making significant portions of the game hard to play for a lot of people.

Job adjustments and balancing effect everyone. They will make more people log on to play jobs they care about. This means less burnout from spamming events on jobs they don't like, more groups being formed...it's better for everyone.

Lowman content updates are for everyone else that cannot or has not gotten to the delve level yet. I don't know from which dark smelly crevice you are pulling this 15-20% of players number from?

Your opinion on R/E/M updates is very short sighted. R/E/M holders are the people organizing events and making the shouts you respond to. If they leave...you're screwed. This game has the WORST grouping mechanism of any MMO I've ever seen. We need them to lead and form groups.

That's just one aspect. The other thing you need to consider is the economy. Dynamis Currency, Alexandrite, Heavy Metal plates is a viable source of extra income for many solo and casual players. It also fuels almost all other markets. You take away R/E/M....and many parts of our economy fall apart.

R/E/M updates will effect us all. The people that actually equip the weapons are the tip of a very large iceberg. For better or worse, whichever way they decide to go. Every single player on every server will be effected.

The larger picture here is that the game is hemorrhaging subscriptions at the moment. Mog Gardens, Monstrosity, Pointless Item level checks and cute seasonal events are not going to keep them...and certainly won't bring them back.

It also just so happens that the new FFXIV is coming out in August and for the most part, people are singing its (and Yoshi-P's) praises for LISTENING to the players and fixing a great number of mistakes from both FFXI and FFXIV.

Unless you think having no one to play with doesn't effect you? Or your access to goods and services within the economy? Or your ability to join pick-up groups and participate in content?

[SqEnisfilledwithgeniuses]

Here, I edited your lists for accuracy's sake.

Someone is interested. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34916-On-a-more-positive-note)


Oh, I see. You read it, you just don't understand the greater significance of some of these things.

No worries. I'll explain.

R/E/M updates will effect us all. The people that actually equip the weapons are the tip of a very large iceberg. For better or worse, whichever way they decide to go. Every single player on every server will be effected.

Now for you.

In a game that is losing its "Fun" and people are growing bored with the lack of variety, you're saying they should focus....less...on fun? Sounds fairly logical.

I have both a Kannagi and an Ochain. Ochain is useful, and will continue to be useful. Kannagi was just so I could look all flashy using Blade: Hi.

I don't know about your server, but R/E/M people on mine are nothing special. They don't lead the pack. They don't form all the events.

I'm not speaking ill of those who have put in the time on these weapons, but just because they have them, doesn't mean the entire endgame gameplay revolves solely around these select few.

Given the low droprate of Heavy metal plates, and the lack of circulation, I fail to see how this would be considered a viable source of income.

Also, why would R/E/M holders organize an event such as Delve? Hmm....for....Delve equipment perhaps?

I'm very sorry you spent time making a R/E/M and that SE decided to remove you from your shining horse you used to ride on as you rode through town looking down on the peasants who were not as grand as you, but I just can't understand...SE killed your horse...Why must you continue to beat a dead horse?

[Nebo]

In a game that is losing its "Fun" and people are growing bored with the lack of variety, you're saying they should focus....less...on fun? Sounds fairly logical.


Actually what I am saying is the exact opposite of that.

I'm saying that focusing priority on making the rest of the game more fun, and for a wider variety of jobs/players, is the best way to improve FFXI in the short term and retain more subscriptions.

I don't think any of the cute and gimmicky things being disputed here will achieve that. Perhaps you disagree, but this is my opinion.

And I'm not saying these things should not be done at all, or that adding fun things like this to the game doesn't have its place, or even that these things don't have value.. I'm saying they should prioritize fixing more important things first, and build on these later.


Why must you continue to beat a dead horse?

She ain't dead just yet. And Matsui just released an apology type post yesterday where he said they were prioritizing content creation for R/E/M revamps....in a post that also emphasized wanting more feedback from us on these things.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Cute...maybe even fun...but mostly irrelevant.

Ah, because fun is irrelevant.


Lowman content updates are for everyone else that cannot or has not gotten to the delve level yet.

Around here, "lowman conent" tends to be nothing more than a euphemism for Salvage and maybe Nyzul. I wasn't aware that "everyone" had to go through those.


Your opinion on R/E/M updates is very short sighted. R/E/M holders are the people organizing events and making the shouts you respond to.

Hell, I've personally had /yell filtered pretty much since Adoulin came out; the spam gets in the way of the dialog I'm trying to read. But I do remember what they looked like before I hit that switch: RME holders were looking for... other RME holders, which sounds rather circular.

And I am aware of your flowery opinion of such "leaders," but it seems there are other opinions (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34917-Fairness-%28Warning-rant-ahead%29). After all, when the entire goal of these self-appointed leaders is "get stuff for myself," there's not a lot of motivation for these folks to make things fun or enjoyable for those they boss around.

The only reason people join such groups is in the hopes of getting the castoffs that are left over after the top tier gets their first pick (e.g. relic armor rather than currency). Lacking the interest and/or patience to pursue RME's myself, I've for years loathed the mechanic that forced me to associate with the self-interested and self-important if I wanted to go beyond a certain point. So... yeah: I'm not crying over the potential departure of my "betters." Power to the proletariat!


That's just one aspect. The other thing you need to consider is the economy. Dynamis Currency, Alexandrite, Heavy Metal plates is a viable source of extra income for many solo and casual players. It also fuels almost all other markets.

What "other markets?" Players sell one to buy the other. Crafting and other such fundamental wealth-creation overall have problems wholly unrelated to anything you've touched upon, but Seekers of Adoulin seems poised to make fundamental changes there.


The larger picture here is that the game is hemorrhaging subscriptions at the moment.

[citation needed]

[FrankReynolds]

Someone is interested. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34916-On-a-more-positive-note)

"No one" is a term commonly used in the English language to describe an insignificant number of people. If English is not your first language then perhaps you should be posting in the forums of your native tongue so as to avoid any further confusion and to ensure that your ideas are properly interpreted.




Now for you.

In a game that is losing its "Fun" and people are growing bored with the lack of variety, you're saying they should focus....less...on fun? Sounds fairly logical.

If this were Disney land, all the rides would be broken and you would be worrying about adding another "Win a gold fish" by tossing a ping pong ball in a cup games instead of fixing the rides.


I have both a Kannagi and an Ochain. Ochain is useful, and will continue to be useful. Kannagi was just so I could look all flashy using Blade: Hi.

I don't know about your server, but R/E/M people on mine are nothing special. They don't lead the pack. They don't form all the events.

Somehow I find it hard to believe that all the events on your server are led by people wielding magian / AH weapons. Come up with a better story and get back to us.


I'm not speaking ill of those who have put in the time on these weapons, but just because they have them, doesn't mean the entire endgame gameplay revolves solely around these select few.

Given the low droprate of Heavy metal plates, and the lack of circulation, I fail to see how this would be considered a viable source of income.

He explained it pretty clearly.


Also, why would R/E/M holders organize an event such as Delve? Hmm....for....Delve equipment perhaps?

You do realize that people can want two things at once right? See how RME have all existed side by side for years? If you add the letter D to the end like this "RMED", the world will not implode.


I'm very sorry you spent time making a R/E/M and that SE decided to remove you from your shining horse you used to ride on as you rode through town looking down on the peasants who were not as grand as you, but I just can't understand...SE killed your horse...Why must you continue to beat a dead horse?

It's called CPR

[Demon6324236]

I don't know about your server, but R/E/M people on mine are nothing special. They don't lead the pack. They don't form all the events.Your server is different than mine by far then, of all of the people I see shout and lead parties I know of only 1 person who has no RME, the rest of them have one, and a few of not been around much since the collapse of the weapons. As a friend of mine pointed out yesterday, the game was dead, no shouts, no one really doing anything in our LS, just lifelessness, and today I still see almost no shouts going, there is a single group doing Delve right now that shouted, nothing more.

[Dew]

Flawed logic on most those REM leader posts. Having REM doesn't make anyone a good player or leader. Being a good leader has nothing to do with having a REM. Being a good player also has nothing to do with having REM. I've seen plenty of bad players with REM. Obtaining a REM doesn't automatically make you a good player.

Bad players can get all the REM in the world and still be bad players. In the end REM =/= leader/good player.

One thing most people don't seem to get with SE is they say a lot of things, but follow through with very little of them. Till you see SE do something I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[Glamdring]

Ok, gonna try to comment on the most recent Matsui post.

1st off, even though I don't have any, let me echo those who complained about the lacl of automatic upgrades to existing R/M/E, previous statements led us to believe that-for once-no grind would be necessary for further upgrades, and knowing your style from the past "additional content"=more grind. sorry, just not cool. BUT, since I know that this comment is falling on deaf ears on that subject I'll move on.

I don't really have a major want list for new solo content, with one exception. I'm still leveling crafting but I expect to have leather capped soon. It might be nice to be able to make stuff people would actually want at end-game levels for 2 reasons: 1, I could use the cash, 2, some players prefer to just buy viable stuff to use instead of having to quest all their gear. Now, it shouldn't outclass the quested stuff, but a "good enough" alternative should be there for those that are happy with that level, there are a fair number of players that fit in that category. The fact it would have the added benefit of reviving crafting is a side bonus (and to make SE happy, materials farming is a type of grind...).

As to solo content, my biggest problem is if, for example, I go all out on making my relic horn I will be precluded based on available time from making my empy harp, building a delve set and farming to get my alternator. I would like to see all of these grind items up on the AH or some type of new trading post, something. That way people who rock at 1 system can farm say heavy metal plates while I farm Dynamis currency and Alfard's Fangs in my playtime. I keep my currency, but trade/sell the fangs and buy the HMP or whatnot. I can't be the only one with this dilema. There are only so many hours of playtime available to anyone, and so most of us are largely precluded from working in more than 1 of the multiple grind systems that are running. Honestly, what do you care if I'm in Dynamis all the time as long as someone else is in VW all the time? In fact, what does SE care that we bother logging in at all as long as our user fees keep being paid? We are paying them, we are grinding, but with so many different grinds we need to do some of us simply can't get anything done! I dynamis 2 days a week at the moment, I'm helping friends with their mythic/salvage gear grinds 3 days a week, skilling jobs 1 day a week and trying to keep enough gil to stay afloat on the last day. I've used up all my playtime! pray tell, where am I supposed to be bayald/plasma/gear farming in all of that?

[Demon6324236]

Flawed logic on most those REM leader posts. Having REM doesn't make anyone a good player or leader. Being a good leader has nothing to do with having a REM. Being a good player also has nothing to do with having REM. I've seen plenty of bad players with REM. Obtaining a REM doesn't automatically make you a good player.No one said only people with RME weapons can be leaders, or only people with RME weapons are good. Also no one said having one makes you either of those by default.


Bad players can get all the REM in the world and still be bad players. In the end REM =/= leader/good player.This is correct. See, here is where people are coming from, ok? If you have the ability to lead, chances are you put forth the work and organization to make yourself a RME weapon at some point, and thus, have one. If you are a good leader, you probably have many, as you could effectively do so, and end up with more in less time, meaning you have more motivation to make them in the first place. Lastly, there are obviously a few people with the ability to lead who had no desire for RME weapons, but the amount of people who could make a group and lead them to making these weapons, but choose not to, is likely low. After all, why would someone be willing to make a group for random content when they are unwilling to make a group for one of the best weapons in the game?

No one said that only RME weapon wielders are fit to lead or good players, it is just highly common for leaders to have them, and so, by not updating these weapons, they are potentially driving leaders away, and thus, less groups will be around...


One thing most people don't seem to get with SE is they say a lot of things, but follow through with very little of them. Till you see SE do something I wouldn't get your hopes up.I think most people if not everyone gets this, the problem is, if you think like that and do not lie to yourself you would end up losing all hope for this game and leave most likely. I, lie to myself all the time, telling myself that RDM will be updated, put on some real melee gear sometime, that RME will be fixed so the Excalibur that took 6 months to make will not go to waste, and that the game will become much more enjoyable for me sometime. These are all lies in reality, I honestly expect none of this to happen, or at least not soon enough for me to care anymore, but at the same time, it is those fleeting hopes that keep me playing with those I care about who are on this game, so I lie to myself.

[Oddwaffle]

Some people just don't want to participate in large alliance or linkshells. Some people prefer 3-6 person events. The current FFXI cripple these players and make them either useless or get laughed at. It's either go delve or go home. This is so imbalance that low man events take hours and hours with several successes to reward a few players while an alliance event take 45min with 1 success to reward everyone in the alliance. 1 Hour of time a single player is the same regardless of where he is: solo, 3-man, 6-man or full alliance. He should get roughly similar rewards for the time spend if he put enough efforts in it.

SE needs to make low man content with rewards the same or similar to large fights. DO NOT make low man content with less powerful rewards as NO ONE will do it. Most low man content take hours or even months to give the players the rewards. If the reward is less than a single successful delve run then nobody would do it. Why would anyone want something that takes more time and effort and will perform less than something that can be done in 45min?

The ideal situation should allow EVERYONE: soloers, low-man or large alliance players get the same items with their preferred events. One type of reward but different ways to get it. You only need to scale it such that alliance would reward everyone after 45min then soloers would get the exact same reward after no more than 5 hours, and no more than 2hours with 6-players party. Of course, there should be some form of difficulty so not everyone can win it. However, some form of rewards like NNI for those who can not make it all the way should be introduced so people don't go out empty handed.

[Angrykitty]

wow, another shiney turd. thanks SE.

[Nebo]

Ah, because fun is irrelevant.

Yes. That is exactly what I said.

Finally....someone gets it.

[Nebo]

Flawed logic on most those REM leader posts. Having REM doesn't make anyone a good player or leader. Being a good leader has nothing to do with having a REM. Being a good player also has nothing to do with having REM. I've seen plenty of bad players with REM. Obtaining a REM doesn't automatically make you a good player.


I didn't say any of that. What I said was that good leaders, people with knowledge, confidence and skill to form groups and lead people with success, tend to be R/M/E holders.

They generally have the means, knowledge and motivation to acquire them...since they are (were?) the best weapons in the game.

I agree that it is incorrect to say that R/M/E causes skill+leadership+motivation. But I would be comfortable in saying that skill+leadership+motivation causes R/M/E more often than not (most of these types strive for the best).

And this leadership problem is not only for shout groups, but also for established linkshells. Many times, when leadership leaves, shells fall apart..more people have nothing to do with friends they've been playing with for years...causing more players to unsubscribe.

No, not all leaders currently have R/M/Es. But if the ones that do have R/M/E leave due to anger or burnout or "what's the point", after this new philosophy of "release gear and out-date it a month later," FFXI will be MUCH worse off.

These are the people that pave the way and post all the battle strategies you read about. These are the people that care about this game and spreading information and strategy. These are the people that organize and motivate people to accomplish larger goals.

Losing them will do nothing but hurt Vana'diel, and killing R/M/E will have a negative effect on the economy for everyone.

[Duelle]

Job Adjustments

The other issue is job adjustments. Another major factor contributing to the difficulty of forming and finding groups for content is this: many people are passionate about playing and gearing jobs that aren't valuable in endgame content...only a handful of current jobs are worth an alliance slot in endgame events.

I am a Thief main. I do not enjoy playing on Bard at all. Guess what job I've been stuck on since Delve came out?...Mostly Bard.

^ This is what happens to people. They get stuck on jobs they DON'T want to play to get gear for the jobs they DO want to play...only they never get to PLAY the jobs they love and they get burnt out...eventually quitting.

A wider variety of jobs needs to be made viable in endgame content. Based on your stated goals, this should be priority number 1.

Making it easier for people to participate on the jobs that they love will invariably make them more motivated to form (and join) groups by virtue of being able to play the jobs that they love in endgame content...something they cannot do now.

If you can correct this (MAJOR, FUNDAMENTAL) design flaw, you will accomplish your goals just doing that alone.I'll agree and add my own words as well.

Long Version: As a Red Mage, I've endured not only the identity crisis my job has felt since the first job revamp, but continuing misconceptions perpetuated by the playerbase and the developers doing nothing about it. We sat through the entirey of TAU being a refresh and cure-bot for parties. We spent more of the same during WotG while both camps (pro-caster and pro-melee) tore into each other. Abyssea gave us a reset and a chance to get our purpose in the game fleshed out, and instead we were allowed to fade into obscurity and uselessness. Then Tanaka returned and gave us a mistranslated job manifesto ("adept at self-enhancing through magic" does not translate to "turns their allies to demigods", by the way).

I doubt I'm alone in feeling this, as there are people not only within the RDM community, but with jobs like PUP and BST and SMN and THF that wish more could be done with their jobs to make them relevant and fun while giving room for the varying playstyles in the cases of the more versatile jobs.

In my case, I like swinging my rapier while bringing utility to the fray over standing in the back and spamming spells. I for one would like it to actually be useful to a party instead of being the shameful thing I get to do by myself. You've attempted to give us cheap imitations in the past. Now it's time to fix RDM.

Short version: Focus on fixing jobs. I don't mind the developer team bringing out new content, but with the gross imbalance of participation in events, that should really be priority #1. People do derive more fun when they are playing a class or playstyle they enjoy over being forced to play something they are not interested in.

[ShadePUP]

I'll agree and add my own words as well.

Long Version: As a Red Mage, I've endured not only the identity crisis my job has felt since the first job revamp, but continuing misconceptions perpetuated by the playerbase and the developers doing nothing about it. We sat through the entirey of TAU being a refresh and cure-bot for parties. We spent more of the same during WotG while both camps (pro-caster and pro-melee) tore into each other. Abyssea gave us a reset and a chance to get our purpose in the game fleshed out, and instead we were allowed to fade into obscurity and uselessness. Then Tanaka returned and gave us a mistranslated job manifesto ("adept at self-enhancing through magic" does not translate to "turns their allies to demigods", by the way).

I doubt I'm alone in feeling this, as there are people not only within the RDM community, but with jobs like PUP and BST and SMN and THF that wish more could be done with their jobs to make them relevant and fun while giving room for the varying playstyles in the cases of the more versatile jobs.

In my case, I like swinging my rapier while bringing utility to the fray over standing in the back and spamming spells. I for one would like it to actually be useful to a party instead of being the shameful thing I get to do by myself. You've attempted to give us cheap imitations in the past. Now it's time to fix RDM.

Short version: Focus on fixing jobs. I don't mind the developer team bringing out new content, but with the gross imbalance of participation in events, that should really be priority #1. People do derive more fun when they are playing a class or playstyle they enjoy over being forced to play something they are not interested in.


I agree with you about that a job adjustment is needed. I originally played pup and I was very knowledgeable about it That was before abby came out. After abby came out I became unable to do anything on it so i was forced to play jobs that I did not care for as much as pup. And now I got 12 99s at least 10 of which i do not enjoy playing 100% of the time. I have tried to adjust with the demands of the game then i just get laughed at by ppls that have all this shiney junk. I have been laughed at since 75 as pup back then i accepted it but at same time i was holding my own in end game content. This was back when you could enter Dynamis with only reservations. And all HNMs were still time window spawns.

[Byrth]

This is like Godwin's law of the Official Forums. "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone relating the topic to melee RDMs, SMNs, or PUPs approaches 1."

[Duelle]

This is like Godwin's law of the Official Forums. "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone relating the topic to melee RDMs, SMNs, or PUPs approaches 1."I see that as a testament to never leaving pending issues linger for too long. If SE actually managed to fix the three jobs you've mentioned I can bet that the discussions and mentioning of said jobs would literally disappear.

[Ilpalazzo]

Some may disagree with this but.... I'd kinda like to be able to solo a mythic within a reasonable time frame 3-4 months for say around 1-2 hours a day to get the 75 base would seem reasonable to me. Currently both relics and empyrians can be done solo but with the requirements for mythics and how the various systems work its just not possible. While I agree with the solo changes to nyzul/salvage/assault that people have brought up what about the ampoules from einhurjar would kinda need to PUG that since it's not soloable correct me if I'm wrong please. Well unless they added a quest or what not to accrue them.

Also while I only have an 85 kannagi I'd have to agree with the various people here and say step up the pace on getting the new trials for the level 99 ones done by at least the august update. To much fuming still from various people that are obviously not me. I'd also enjoy more 1-6 man events that you mentioned.

[Demonicpagan]

This brings me to another problem i see on current delve. MNKs with formless strikes are owning the scene due to developers thinking it is a good idea to put high PDT monsters in there. whilst there are some strategies to lower the PDT, MNKs are still the most wanted job because of F.S. - speeding up the kill time, and kill time is crucial in the current design of delve if you challenge T1-5NM + mega boss in a single run. The content is making really killing the job balance right now.

This is what baffles me... why do all NMs in the fracture to go after the mega boss when in reality the design is to remove 3/5 of the NMs, take on 2 of the easier ones and then fight the mega boss. Time is a limitation, so in that regard removing 3/5 of the NMs is only beneficial giving you more time to fight the mega boss.

If you say it is for additional chances at gear... there are easier ways... fight the NM outside the fracture (with the 20 minute time limit) and hope for drops or take the fight inside the fracture where there is a guaranteed drop of some sort.

[Raksha]

Because beads cost time/money. And why do it if you don't need to?

[Byrth]

Also, beating the boss with 3 beads gives you 30,000 Plasm for the kill and beating it with 0 beads gives you 60,000 Plasm (on top of the 10k you farm on the way to the boss). Why short yourself on Plasm if you have 45 minutes in Fracture and can get it done?

[Riggs]

get rid of this bloody 20 minute timer on t1 to 5 nm's, this was crazy to put in as it allowed the hard core to get theirs with no timer and now its stopping the rest of us from getting in to groups to get the win

either reduce the 100k bayld requirement to get the ki to enter the skirmish or make it a permanent KI to be used over and over or skip the skirmish and allow players enter the factour with just the 100k ki

[Kristal]

either reduce the 100k bayld requirement to get the ki to enter the skirmish or make it a permanent KI to be used over and over or skip the skirmish and allow players enter the factour with just the 100k ki

KI is 80k if you muck around in Adoulin and not just skip everything to do Delve (and might even get as low as 75k), and SE is lowering the cost even further next update.

[Camate]

Greetings everyone and happy Friday! :)

Below are a couple of posts from Producer Akihiko Matsui where he explains about the choices made for the adoption of item levels.



Hello, Matsui here.

Apologizes that it took so long to post. I'd like to expand a bit on the explanation as to why increasing the level cap was not a choice for the direction we are taking. I apologize ahead of time for the complexity and the jargon that is used.


A problem of programming consensus

As a development consensus, it was decided that the UI display would not exceed level 99 and as such an extremely large amount of aspects were created based on the idea that the level cap would not exceed 99.

I'll go ahead and mention this for the sake of the developers, but normally things are structured with as much margin as possible so that aspects can be addressed by just changing definitions and compiling.

However, if there is too large a margin for save data, packets, and other multiplicative elements, then performance will be affected, so there are a lot of areas that have been setup on a bit by bit scale. Also, in statements for content and events in FFXI, a lot of them have been written on the basis that the maximum level is 99.


The problem of man-hours required to change this

If we were to simply increase the level cap to go beyond 99, we would first have to start by investigating exactly how many areas would experience the above issues. As I stated previously, it's not only the program, but there are also level statements in the scripts for content and events. The time needed to check all of these, re-write them, and then test each one could not be secured before the deadline for Adoulin, and as such we were unable to select a level cap increase as an option.


Due to the above reasons we were unable to adopt a plan to increase the level cap.

However, in order for FFXI to continue to operate, I feel that in addition to growth via items, a new growth system is necessary.

While it will take some time considering everything we have in the game thus far, we've allocated the necessary people and time and have begun calculating and testing where possible. With that said, I apologize for not being able to get responses out right away.




One more thing.

As many of you have mentioned in your posts, I too believe that level design-wise, starting with the implementation of craftable items and quest rewards, then moving on to party-based battles, and then ultimately high-level, alliance-based battles is both normal and correct.

However, many FFXI players have already completely played through all the high-level content for level 99, and we felt that quick implementation of new, high-level content was desired. Due to this, in order to break the feeling of stagnation, we prioritized the implementation of reives, Skirmish, and Delve, which make up the vertical backbone of content.

Speaking in regards to Delve, while we have received feedback that it's really fun, we understand that a lot of players have given up on challenging this content.

Both the staff and I have no plans to see these conditions continue.

The development team is currently in the midst of discussing the priority order of the items to be implemented after the August version update, but unfortunately since final adjustments are being made to the content for the July version update we were unable to finalize this yet.

Below is an example of the things we have been discussing:


Addition of battle content that can be undertaken by low-man parties or solo (+NPC)
The idea is something like an Adoulin version of Meeble Burrows.
Expansion of synthesis and other non-battle content
Continued adjustments to reives
Addition of solo-content that focuses on exploration instead of battle
Adjustments so that players’ efforts are more naturally tied to colonization
Revamps and enhancements to equipment
RMEC weapons, job specific equipment, etc.


To start off, we'll be placing a heavy emphasis on increasing the amount of content variety, supplementing the gaps in content, and making it possible to increase your item level solo or low-man, and we are proceeding to prepare for the implementation of a lot of this.

As we are in midst of working on the July version update as well as the August version update, I'll need a bit more time before I can tell you new information, but I’ll be doing my best to deliver it to you as it becomes available.

[Karbuncle]

For those unlucky (or lucky actually) enough to not be a part of a big LS, The new solo/lowman friendly content is a real blessing. Though I'm sure some will still complain its too hard to exit the mog house or their level 98 WHM can't solo it... But thats not a negative to the devs more of a shameful look at fellow gamers...

WHATEVS. This is great news for just about everyone, thanks!

[Sekhmet]

However, in order for FFXI to continue to operate, I feel that in addition to growth via items, a new growth system is necessary.

I like the mention of a growth system besides the growth by equipment idea. Now I'm no developer, but would you consider a growth-tree like addition to merits? or a completely new system outside of merits. Something along the lines of spending growth points to climb along a growth tree, taking branches to get new traits or abilities, but make each tree job-specific, and make only one path available to be taken at each branch. That way you could have 2 drks, for example, but each would be unique based on the choices they made. Again, I'm no developer, and I'm sure there are holes in what I said, but it could be an interesting path to look into ^^

[Glamdring]

@Sekhmet, if you go WAY back to the earliest posts about increasing the level cap to 99 there was at that time mention of adding a 2nd tier of merits. as NOONE talks about it I'm assuming it sort of fell by the wayside and they hope we forgot, well I didn't. I'm not saying it will ever happen but at least at 1 point it was at least proposed. I'm assuming it's superceded by the gear progressions, but it should be on the table since it would provide mechanisms for the addition of things like the additional HP/MP we would have gained if we and not just our gear continued to level. if anything, I think the ability to do that, add more skill to our weap/eva/shield, etc would make the creation of new mobs more linear, unless we are dealing with a geometric or logarithmic curve in strength with increased mob levels.

[loldrg]

just a thought, a way to keep older content somewhat "relevant" and in hopes of making it easier for people to form parties, groups and alliances and what not to do such content, have quest/synthesis recipes that require older armor to upgrade newer armor for new stats and bonuses. Kind of like the limbus and limbus 2.0, but better and more involved. I had always wanted a body armor that combined the stats of my homam corrozza with a adaberk back when the cap was 75.
I think a method like this could allow for some variation in armors and not have everybody going down the same cookie cutter line. Something like "new body armor A has base def xxx, attack +50 and 2 blank "slots" Get a quest from a npc or have armor "A" used in a synthesis recipe, require upgrades to consist of two lower level armors(in this case lets use 75.) Player then goes and uses in synth/quest an adaberk for the +DEX+STR stats, and a homam body for the + triple attack. Tada new armor created. Maybe they would rather have "refresh" or "increase % crit" instead of triple attack. Turn in Ares armor or that one body armor from the WotG sandworm.
In theory you have tons and tones of options to mix and match what you want. Obviously keep heavy armors with heavy, light with etc, maybe depending on what is used to make new armor the color scheme of the new armor could change. All just a thought, not thought out in great detail, so please don't bash or criticize for that.

[Duelle]

I like the mention of a growth system besides the growth by equipment idea.I feel anyone who can appreciate growth systems in games and was not raging over RME knew exactly that they needed some other method of character growth with the lv99 cap. Even I think going beyond it would be a bad idea.


Now I'm no developer, but would you consider a growth-tree like addition to merits? or a completely new system outside of merits. Something along the lines of spending growth points to climb along a growth tree, taking branches to get new traits or abilities, but make each tree job-specific, and make only one path available to be taken at each branch. That way you could have 2 drks, for example, but each would be unique based on the choices they made. Again, I'm no developer, and I'm sure there are holes in what I said, but it could be an interesting path to look into ^^The main issue with merits is that they're purposely lackluster with a handful of decent choices. I would rather job merits get entirely revamped (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22213-Pipe-Dream-Revamping-Red-Mage-Merits) and redesigned. Then and only then would I think it appropriate to give the jobs growth trees to further specialize or develop their jobs in a specific direction.

[Babekeke]

Revamps and enhancements to equipment
RMEC weapons, job specific equipment, etc.

AF+2 anyone? Assumingly* going to be lvl 105 to match RUN and GEO AF?



* Apparently 'Assumingly' is not a word, according to my browser spellchecker, but 'unassumingly' is...? Oh well.

[Oddwaffle]

That means none of the REM, solo, low-man, explorations and pretty much things that help people who have already given up on current delve content are not coming until September or October right?

Oh well, I'll wait until they start doing something interesting that makes me want to play again. I'm just cancelling my account for now and play something else. People need to realize that they are customers (Kings and Queens) and they to only eat what they like and throw away stuff they don't want. It's summer, games are on sales like crazy. I just got Ai Wars bundle for $5. I'm sure there are plenty of other options to keep me happy until October.

[Godofgods]

•Expansion of synthesis and other non-battle content
Synthesis that is not synergy please! Tired of most things being revolved around that single one.

[Kristal]

Synthesis that is not synergy please! Tired of most things being revolved around that single one.

Synergy is not really 'one' craft. It's an extension of ALL crafts. You could level nothing but synergy and just party with someone who has the required skills for the recipe.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

You could level nothing but synergy

In my experience, that's not really practical. If I remember correctly, synergy was designed and intended as an "endgame activity" for crafters, and my impression of the recipes is that you won't get anywhere without at least one craft at 60+.

[Mostfowl]

So what I get from this is they already rendered the rest of the game soloable, so now they plan on just keeping up that trend.

I have a solution to your lvl programming woes, leave it at 99 and make content for lvl 99. It worked great for the 8 yrs we spent at 75. MMM, Dyna, Salvage, Limbus, Einherjar, Assault, Campaign... they were all active years after their implementation because they had real goals and rewards and even though some complained about the work they had to put into doing them, they still put in the work and did them because the rewards were worth it, they had other content to do in between and the rewards from one content category contributed to productivity in another. This also meant that new players could tag along in most cases, getting wins, titles, progression, exp, gil and gear drops.

The easy drop God mode started with Aby and well wonderful at first, made most my ls quit and brought into the game a whole new range of players who had a taste and now just want it all right now. With content like Delve that has easy drops with minimal farming to upgrade ppl are getting what they want/need and then afking in pj or just flat out cancelling their account.

At this point I do not see how this game can be salvaged with 99% of it being irrelevant and the other 1% being completed in a day or two. With the reviews of ARR you really don't need to purposely kill ffxi, ppl will move on regardless but for those who still want to play and have a good time these changes are a bane, not a boon.

[Camate]

Greetings,

There has been a lot of feedback asking to remove the party member limitations for various content so that it can be undertaken solo.

Below is a reply from Associate Director Yoji Fujito explaining the technical issues surrounding this as well as a potential solution.



In regards to this request, there is one large reason why we haven’t been able to easily say yes to this.


Simply increasing the amount of layer areas would result in an extreme increase in server lag.


I'm sure many of you are thinking, "What? Lag again?" However, we have data to base this on.

With the recent Salvage "Design Plan Drop Rate Doubled Campaign", the number of areas reached the threshold for the server and server latency bugs began popping up here and there.

These bugs were due to our own lack of gauging the settings and we accept the blame for that. However, what we want you to understand is that the creation of layer areas utilizes a vast amount of server resources (you think of it as the power required to run them).

Layer areas are a system used by various content, and the total amount of server resources (power) has been determined. In the event that we were to simply allow everything to be soloed, we predict that the layer areas would increase exponentially.

Especially considering what would happen on the weekends, I think you can understand why we are hesitant to do this development-wise.

However, we have no intention to deny solo play for layer area content and we think that layer area creation could be allowable for soloing depending on the days and times when concurrency (as well as the number of layer areas) is low.
(For example, making every Wednesday a day that you can solo Salvage.)

There are various other methods that can be thought of, but given the opportunity this is something that we would like to try out.

[Babekeke]

http://earnestlycontending.com/maranatha/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/fd35df73_359q.jpeg

[FrankReynolds]

Greetings,

There has been a lot of feedback asking to remove the party member limitations for various content so that it can be undertaken solo.

Below is a reply from Associate Director Yoji Fujito explaining the technical issues surrounding this as well as a potential solution.

If given the choice between having high lag and or disconnects on some days or just plain not being able to enter at all, I'll take the lag.

Standing around not doing salvage, Nyzul isle etc. is the worst game ever.


On a related note, what kind of servers are we talking about here? I manage an IT department that happens to be scrapping a bunch of servers in the near future. Perhaps we can donate them.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3572Ulgcb7c/UdxUU1dqHhI/AAAAAAAAqkM/CEmZ5b6X0Xg/w500-h281-no/tumblr_inline_moikjsCQWB1qz4rgp.gif

[Vold]

Can SE implement a monthly sub fee for FFXI so that we have to pay to play and you can use the funds to purchase the hardware required for FFXI to run without limitations? I know that will not be a popular suggestion but it might be the only way.

[Nebo]

Greetings,

There has been a lot of feedback asking to remove the party member limitations for various content so that it can be undertaken solo.

Below is a reply from Associate Director Yoji Fujito explaining the technical issues surrounding this as well as a potential solution.

This is pretty basic stuff. If you wonder why people are upset and leaving this game...it's because we are paying money for a monthly service and we are not getting our money's worth.

It's assumed that FFXI revenues will go to other projects...but when this little goes towards providing the service that we pay for - like keeping the hardware current, it leads to the dissatisfaction that you see.

You can say till you are blue int he face that the player base is just unhappy, or rude or looking for things to complain about.

But at the root cause of all of that...are issues like this. And it won't change until the dev team changes the way they do things.

Edit:

"Sorry, PS2 Server Limitations"

[Demon6324236]

If you know the threshold why not just make it so that only a certain amount if groups can be in at once, then allow no more people till a run is finished. Your talking about an event that takes an hour, if you can let 10 groups in a single zone at one time, there are 4 zones, 24 hours in a day, that's roughly 900 runs each day that can be done. To me, that sounds perfectly fine.

[Oddwaffle]

Greetings,

There has been a lot of feedback asking to remove the party member limitations for various content so that it can be undertaken solo.

Below is a reply from Associate Director Yoji Fujito explaining the technical issues surrounding this as well as a potential solution.

/King mode on

Engine not having enough power? Fix it! COme up with solution! Stop asking your King to fix your problem!

/King mode off

Invent a new way for soloers to obtain that reward (but no random rewards and lotteries please). I watched a guy shouted for Salvage v2 for months and got pretty much nowhere. Time for a change, erase the crumpy salvage area and make something with easy access and everyone and do what they want with it.

[Tennotsukai]

I just want to be able to solo content to farm plasm. I hate these delve alliances. I mean, "Hey, let's go into these boring areas, spam mobs with jobs we prefer not to play as, and repeat this all day because we're elite and don't care about variety as long as we become broken."

I've been paying a sub fee for around 10 years now, but this content is so boring, alliances take way too long to make, and wow! ffxiv beta is too freaking fun/easier to deal with events than this game. I guess that is to be expected.

I know you guys have manpower issues, but come to think of it, the players are facing the same issue with manpower. Too many of my friends have quit lately. This is really disheartening for me.

I apologize for this rant guys, but I am getting fed up with this. Solo/low man content, please.

[FrankReynolds]

Can SE implement a monthly sub fee for FFXI so that we have to pay to play and you can use the funds to purchase the hardware required for FFXI to run without limitations? I know that will not be a popular suggestion but it might be the only way.

Wait, let me get this straight... Charge a monthly fee and then use a portion of that fee to support the game? Now that is a good idea!

Are you getting this Camate? Pass it along to the team. This is important. It could save the game.

Seriously though. You guys charged us $30 for a half baked expansion but the idea of adding a buck or two to the service fee (or god forbid, just using some of the current fee) in order to pay for much needed improvements is out of the question???

[Mostfowl]

Greetings,

There has been a lot of feedback asking to remove the party member limitations for various content so that it can be undertaken solo.

Below is a reply from Associate Director Yoji Fujito explaining the technical issues surrounding this as well as a potential solution.

So let me get this straight. You are concerned about lag because you do not feel your servers can withstand the amount of ppl who would participate in a piece of endgame you have rendered all but irrelevant so your solution is to only allow players to enter on certain days/times?

...because when you don't want a server to crash you make it so everyone who wants to do it is forced to log in at the same time and all do it at once instead of allowing them to enter on their own time....

...Um

...Ok

[Mostfowl]

Can SE implement a monthly sub fee for FFXI so that we have to pay to play and you can use the funds to purchase the hardware required for FFXI to run without limitations? I know that will not be a popular suggestion but it might be the only way.

SE is having enough problems keeping subscribers, raising the monthly fee would cause a huge exodus and making it pay to participate or for special access to or for anything would render it pay-to-win and surely be the final nail in the coffin

[Trumpy]

I dont care bout soloin salvage as much as I do Asaults or maybe Nyzul. Even if the requirement was 2 instead of 3 I would be happy. Then at least a dual boxer could get stuff done like Captain Rank Achieved

[FrankReynolds]

SE is having enough problems keeping subscribers, raising the monthly fee would cause a huge exodus and making it pay to participate or for special access to or for anything would render it pay-to-win and surely be the final nail in the coffin

I'm sure It was sarcasm. We already pay a monthly fee for exactly that.

[Ophannus]

What he's saying, for those that can't read is "layer zones" is a fancy way of saying instanced. If they made Salvage so that you can enter solo, instead of going in with 3 or 4 ppl in 1 instance, you have 1 person in 1 instance, 4 times. So having 100 instances with 1 person in each instance, vs 25 instances with 4 people in each is a vast difference in server powah.

[Demon6324236]

I would be fine if they set a limit to, say, 5 parties being allowed inside, hell, a reservation system might even work out for it in that case, kinda like Private PvP battles. Anything to get rid of the 3+ member limit...

[Vold]

Yes it was sarcasm.


I'm just tired of the issues that free MMOs have with their servers. If only we paid to play this game, SE could afford to improve it. Because they let us play out of their kindness of their hearts, they don't have to spend money to make minimal improvements. If we paid a monthly fee then they would be obligated to make improvements to their servers.



Anyways, I'm sick to death of dealing with companies like AT&T, ripping me a new one on their pricing and never sticking to their end of the deal to provide the service I pay for. I really do not need that crap here, too. I said it before and I'll say it again, even though it will never happen, lower my monthly fee to play this game since it's support has been severely cut. It's worth maybe 8 dollars a month right now, if not less.

[Mostfowl]

What he's saying, for those that can't read is "layer zones" is a fancy way of saying instanced. If they made Salvage so that you can enter solo, instead of going in with 3 or 4 ppl in 1 instance, you have 1 person in 1 instance, 4 times. So having 100 instances with 1 person in each instance, vs 25 instances with 4 people in each is a vast difference in server powah.

We understand what he meant. Its the solution that's off.

If you don't want hundreds of players converging on a zone and causing a crash you don't limit them to a 24 hr window. I'm not sure if it's a mistranslation, Matsui wasn't explaining himself clearly or if the poor guy is sleep deprived and just talking, but opening the zone to soloers only 1 day a week will assure server stress and a crash.

[Mostfowl]

Yes it was sarcasm.

Ok. On here you never know. This was a suggestion made by a few ppl pre-SoA and they were dead serious about it...

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

hell, a reservation system might even work out for it in that case

Ugh, Dynamis flashback.

[FrankReynolds]

Ugh, Dynamis flashback.

It doesn't matter. They won't be able to implement it for another year or two anyways. You know staffing and server stress blah blah blah...

[Glamdring]

Wait, let me get this straight... Charge a monthly fee and then use a portion of that fee to support the game? Now that is a good idea!

Are you getting this Camate? Pass it along to the team. This is important. It could save the game.

Seriously though. You guys charged us $30 for a half baked expansion but the idea of adding a buck or two to the service fee (or god forbid, just using some of the current fee) in order to pay for much needed improvements is out of the question???

for that matter, what did you do with the servers from the last 2 merges? Daisychain the things with those currently operating after having wiped them and put them back in as swap space, which is exactly the kind of thing you need for instanced or layered content, they take the load from anything that is being overloaded.

Also, put back the bazaar tax, I'd like to be able to turn in my gd seals/crests in PJ without lagging out.

[Renaissance2K]

In my linkshells, the people who enter Salvage are doing so with a second account and a warm body that disconnects as the party enters. Eliminating the three-person restriction isn't going to suddenly turn that three-person party into three instances. It's going to be one instance with a soloer or a two-person party.

It's true that those of us without a second account or an abundance of warm bodies will probably start doing Salvage more often, but there are other ways to reduce the load. Restrict Salvage entry to once every three days, for example, and increase the drop rates accordingly. Don't do the first part without the second part!

I don't think anybody here would mind getting the occasional, "Server is busy. Come back later." message if it meant we could still ultimately enter solo at some point.

I'm not sure what do about Assault, which is a shame because that's the event that seems to require the most arm twisting and hair pulling to do. Everybody would rather use their tags on Nyzul Isle.

[Glamdring]

It's true that those of us without a second account or an abundance of warm bodies will probably start doing Salvage more often, but there are other ways to reduce the load. Restrict Salvage entry to once every three days, for example, and increase the drop rates accordingly. Don't do the first part without the second part!

I don't think anybody here would mind getting the occasional, "Server is busy. Come back later." message if it meant we could still ultimately enter solo at some point.

I'm not sure what do about Assault, which is a shame because that's the event that seems to require the most arm twisting and hair pulling to do. Everybody would rather use their tags on Nyzul Isle.

As to assault, increase the number of points required for a salvage permit. If people are burning through them that fast they'll have to do assaults. Not that this would make the devs any more popular with the players, especially with the 3 person entry limit-and assaults are "layered" content as well, so same issues. And I have no issues with a reservation system, but make it a real one, not the BS one the gilsellers ignored for dynamis, and put a limit on the reservations anyone can get, or a limit on salvage to once per whatever interval so people can't just spam at the expense of everyone else that would like to do salvage. Hell, put an interval limit on delve and skirmish as well. That would fix server loads.

OR they could-you know-plug in another server(s) with all the $ we pay them.

[Babekeke]

Seriously.

Anyone who wants to solo Salvage right now is going to. If it means shouting for people to help them to enter and offering them 100k to do so and then D/C during entry, or warp after entry, then that's what they will do. Though with the price drop of alex now, you need to get 40+ per run to cover the price you paid for the 2 people to enter you.

Long story short? You might as well just allow people to enter solo.

[Sekundes]

How are we having server and lag issues when most of the servers are empty?

[Glamdring]

a. the servers aren't empty, that's just a BS complaint by people that don't understand the concept that other players might be interested in doing something other than what the complainer is interested in at that moment.

b. the server load isn't the player-at least not much-its the extra Area and all the mobs in it that eats resources. SE just isn't interested in putting in the equipment to handle the load, much like they have no interest in making the game compatible with modern software/hardware (direct x/graphics card drivers/multi-processor systems, etc.)

[FrankReynolds]

How are we having server and lag issues when most of the servers are empty?

I know huh?

"In order to avoid situations where people would be unable to do salvage, we have decided to make it so people are unable to do salvage."

[FrankReynolds]

a. the servers aren't empty, that's just a BS complaint by people that don't understand the concept that other players might be interested in doing something other than what the complainer is interested in at that moment.

I did a /sea all on Sunday on Cerberus in the middle of the day and there were 800 people logged on. I used to sea over 2,000 at that time of day. EVen the JP are complaining to the devs about the number of people quitting. Stop kidding yourself.


b. the server load isn't the player-at least not much-its the extra Area and all the mobs in it that eats resources. SE just isn't interested in putting in the equipment to handle the load, much like they have no interest in making the game compatible with modern software/hardware (direct x/graphics card drivers/multi-processor systems, etc.)


Who cares?

All that matters is that they are basing decisions on the broken logic that keeping people from doing the content by imposing limitations somehow makes it so that more people can do the content.

They ignore complaints for months / years at a time, so if they make it so anyone can enter solo and people end up hating it, it shouldn't really be a big deal for them to ignore our complaints about that too and change it back if / when they feel like it.

[Sekundes]

a. the servers aren't empty, that's just a BS complaint by people that don't understand the concept that other players might be interested in doing something other than what the complainer is interested in at that moment.

b. the server load isn't the player-at least not much-its the extra Area and all the mobs in it that eats resources. SE just isn't interested in putting in the equipment to handle the load, much like they have no interest in making the game compatible with modern software/hardware (direct x/graphics card drivers/multi-processor systems, etc.)

I understand how instancing works and that there is a lot more than just the player but the server populations mean a whole lot in how many people are using the resources and doing events that require instancing. If there were 4-5k people during primetime there is much more likely to be people generating instances that would increase server lag. But there aren't that many people. Most servers are near 1k and a few are 2k during peak hours. Yes, that's not "empty" but it's far below what it use to be. By all means they should be far under their specced load capacity. When Nyzul isle came out we had over 100 people in the zone before you started having a lot of issues(limited to 6 people per instance, that's over 16 instances, per game server). Even if you were to allow soloers it's not likely to get over 16 at any one time as it is. The best, cheapest solution has already been suggested though and it's a great idea. Just limit the number of instances just like old BCNM fights. That way people can still do the content without a huge hassle(I mean they do it anyway already by circumventing the system limitations). And the hard cap will prevent issues from happening. Just put the cap at 10 instances and you'll never have to worry about it. It will very rarely limit people, quite unlike the current situation where people are farming for alex daily and need help getting in.

But yeah... It's quite obvious they don't care to use the subscription fees to improve the game. They just use it to make up for the losses of all their other poor decisions and let the game limp along.

[Zhronne]

However, in order for FFXI to continue to operate, I feel that in addition to growth via items, a new growth system is necessary
Why? Why is this "necessary"?
Game survived how long with a level cap of 75? Why can't it do the same now at 99?
If you really felt a growth further was necessary, then why not expand (and I mean with a great expansion) the merit system?

The point of "growing up" through levelling is that anybody can do it, it's just a grind of experience, which you can accrue in several different ways. It's also "permanent" and "across-the-board" because it stays with you no matter what you do, no matter what you equip.

Growing up through items is such a bad idea in a game like FFXI instead. You cannot obtain items with just will and grinding.
As a comparison with the level 75 era, it will be like if a certain part of the population will be at level 75 and the rest of the population will be stuck at level 65, unable to progress further that cap.
Think about all the possible implications of such a retarded system. Gear swap, abilities that remove all or part of your equipment, equipment that you cannot use on all your jobs.
This is such... really, I have no words to further explain why this is wrong in so many ways.


It's almost as Matsui wants to burn the little life left in FFXI as fast as possible with a big, fancy, shiny "boom", instead of constantly and slowly putting fuel into the engine and making it last as long as possible.
This is turning into something that's not FFXI anymore. And why do you think people kept playing FFXI so long? Because they were hoping someday it would have tried to imitate other MMOs? Or exactely because it was different from everything else on the market?

[Tamoa]

Sechs, you have all my likes. What you point out in your above post, plus the loss of R/E/Ms, everything in XI now being focused on Delve - well all this is why I have cancelled my content IDs and Tamoa will go poof forever on the 21st of July.

It is no longer the FFXI I played and enjoyed for 7 years. And that makes me very, very sad.

[Camate]

Hello,

Below are two posts from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to items left out of the version update notes as well as an explanation about the new stat, "combat skill +".



Hello, Matsui here.

I would like to apologize for leaving out two items from the version update notes:
-The magical resistance value cap for both characters and monsters has been increased
-A bug wherein it was possible to charm monsters that could not originally be charmed has been addressed

This happened because the development team didn't provided the needed information to the operations team. The information was also not properly shared within the development team itself.

I feel that the development team has a tendency to prioritize implementation over communication in order to meet deadlines. Going forward, I've taken steps to ensure that they place the same amount of importance on properly communicating information to users as they do for implementation. I'll continue to repeat this and make sure we are thorough.

I deeply apologize for the inconveniences caused by this.




Hello, Matsui here.

Thanks for all the feedback on the July version update.

Since we've received quite a few questions about the "combat skill +" stat that has been added to new items, I'd like to talk a bit about this as well as talk about future plans.


What is "combat skill +"?


This is a new bonus stat that is being added to weapons, and it is different than the stat that originally appeared on armor (Though, there are some exceptions. Scathacha for example, but the stat is the same as that which appears on armor.)



How is this different than the "combat skill +" that we’ve seen up until now?


The main weapon and sub weapon are calculated independently.



Why did you decide to add "combat skill +"?


In the event we were to adjust "accuracy +" and "attack +", it would conflict with dual-wielding.

This is an issue that has been brought up previously. We have to take into consideration that weapons can be dual-wielded when adding stats, because when we add things like "accuracy +" and "attack +" that apply to sub weapons, it will always make dual-wielding the best choice.

Similarly, there were aspects that would make adjusting one-handed and two-handed weapons even more difficult.

In order to solve this, we implemented a new system, "combat skill +".



But, aren't you only adding "combat skill +" to certain weapons?


With some exceptions, we will be adding this stat to weapons with an item level above 100.



Please go into a bit more detail.


With weapons that are implemented moving forward, we'll be adding the proportionate amount of "combat skill +" to match the item level of the weapon.

For existing weapons, we plan on switching out "accuracy +" and "attack +" for "combat skill +".

Especially for one-handed weapons, after making the switch to "combat skill +", you’ll be able to better assess the accuracy and attack for dual-wielding.



Tell us which weapons "combat skill +" will be added to.


I'll share with you a couple of examples of the weapons we will be adjusting in the August version update. (Since this is still in-development, the values may be changed, but they are pretty much set.)


Camatlatia (reward from Achuka)
Before: DMG: 76 Delay: 240 STR +8 Fire +20 Physical damage taken -4%
After: DMG: 76 Delay: 240 STR +8 Fire +20 Sword Skill +67 Parry Skill +67 Physical damage taken -4%


Iztaasu (Skirmish weapon)
Before: DMG: 68 Delay: 236
After: DMG: 68 Delay: 236 Sword Skill +54 Parry Skill +54


Forefront Blade (Bayld weapon)
Before: DMG: 71 Delay: 247 Accuracy +15 Reives: DMG: 89 Accuracy +25
After: DMG: 71 Delay: 247 Accuracy +15 Attack +7 Sword Skill +63 Parry Skill +25 Reives: DMG: 89 Accuracy +25




What about relics, mythics, and empyreans?


While it will not take place in the August version update, we will be adjusting these to make them higher than item level 100.



I tried to answer some of the major questions that were brought up with post.

I'd like to also apologize once again for the large feeling of uneasiness towards the current adjustments due to the new equipment implementation and stat adjustments taking place in August.

The entire development team is working as hard as possible to get everything in to the August version update. Thank you very much for your patience.

[Kincard]

While it will not take place in the August version update, we will be adjusting these to make them higher than item level 100.

Thanks, Matsui, for confirming that weapons that were going to be adjusted beyond level 99 are going to be over level 100? >_>

Just thought it was kinda funny he felt the need to clarify that.

[Emitremmus]

Thanks, Matsui, for confirming that weapons that were going to be adjusted beyond level 99 are going to be over level 100? >_>

Just thought it was kinda funny he felt the need to clarify that.

Well if you've ever tried to have a conversation with a majority of those that frequent these forums you would realize why he felt the need to do so.

"WHY MY WEPIN ISN'T DOIN 4000 DAAMAGES? I H8 THS GAME, GAWSH!"
*Makes your weapon 4000 damages as per requested*
"WHY DID U DO DAT!? WHUT R U GAIS THANKING?"

(Not a jab at you Kincard, just a jab at the goobs we have around here...lol)

[Alpheus]

I think that's an implication Kincard that post revamp RMEs are gonna have that Skill+ term in their description

[HimuraKenshyn]

Man still keeping a lid on the RME at least over 100 and should now have skill gonna be interesting when they finally drop the bomb on em....

[Thala]

So how does 188 new skill+ translate to current stats?

[Vivivivi]

So how does 188 new skill+ translate to current stats?

188 moar :3

[FrankReynolds]

The way I read it is that before, you would see a weapon that gave Dagger skill +10 and that would give you accuracy and attack on all both weapons if you were dual wielding.

The new stat will only apply to your main hand.

They also plan on using this in place of + acc or + attack from now on. So instead of making a dagger with 10 acc, 10 attack and 5 skill, they will just make one with 188 skill for no apparent reason :P

[Mokeil]

OK, I'm trying to wrap my head around this thing without much luck.

Matsui said the whole reason was because of Dual Wield. OK, I'm with him so far. Dual Wielding was more or less why 2-handers got the change to Str and Dex affecting Attack and Accuracy so long ago to begin with. But now newer mobs are based on the type of Att/Acc ratings a 2-hander has, and that left all non 2-handers out in the cold. Thus dual wielders got buffed up, so now there needs to be a new way to make up for that off-hand weapon.

(Never mind that dual wielders are still be stuck with having to equip weapons at two different item levels - and thus vastly different DMG ratings - and that off hand weapons aren't getting the same boost to Attack that main hand weapons are).

But then he says this new skill thing is going to be calculated differently than what we're used to, and then doesn't actually say how it's going to be calculated differently. Well... that's not at all useful in helping us to understand this new stat.

Now, here's where I start to lose track of what Matsui intends: He says it's going to replace Accuracy and Attack... but then, in the examples given, weapons with no Attack or Accuracy stats on them suddenly have +Skill on them... and the one weapon that actually has Accuracy on it already not only has the same Accuracy rating on it "after", but also gains Attack in addition to the +Skill.

And, of course, it's spelled out on the new weapons the same way as previous versions, but it works differently. (Except for those "some exceptions" when it won't... Are we somehow supposed to divine which is which?) Honestly, adding this thing sounds like it's just making figuring out our Accuracy and Attack ratings even more of a pain in the butt, and not at all easier.

And where is all this extra Parry skill coming from? Not that extra Parry skill is bad, but it had no bearing on what was being discussed. I can't help but feel that this is just a mad scramble to catch up to the reality of implementing these item levels - much like how the new Naakual armors have huge piles of Evasion and Magic Evasion on them.

[Delvish]

You can also think of it in the sense that your item is say level 120. Normally if you leveled from 99 to 120 (excluding cap) without skilling, you would have a difference of 188 skill. I don't know the exact levels on these new weapons, but I expect it to be around the 115-120 range.

The reason the skill applies to weapon only, is because it is an ITEM level, not a job level. Since the skill will be applied to bayld gear too, we'll use that. So you get the nifty +188 axe and the bayld axe with +49. Your nifty axe is going to be lvl~120 so you get 188, but your bayld axe is only lvl~105 (49 skill levels difference). You don't get 237 skill, you get 188 skill and associated accuracy/attack bonuses in your main hand (logically you put the stronger in your main hand) and 49 skill with associated accuracy/attack bonuses in your off hand.

Edit: In response to what Mokiel said about how parrying skill plays into this, it re-enforces my theory in that your defensive skills are equally suffering when compared to your offensive skills when you look at difference of levels, hence why parrying is included. As to why Evasion is not included, because that is more something you do with your body, not your weapon. We may see evasion skill added to gear in a similar fashion.

[Mokeil]

You can also think of it in the sense that your item is say level 120. Normally if you leveled from 99 to 120 (excluding cap) without skilling, you would have a difference of 188 skill. I don't know the exact levels on these new weapons, but I expect it to be around the 115-120 range.


This explanation does help some, thanks. It certainly helps me place where the numbers are coming from (and why parry skill is suddenly on all these things).

[pretre]

is anyone else getting tired of seeing R/E/M in a post and then noticing that once again we got no info on them

[FrankReynolds]

is anyone else getting tired of seeing R/E/M in a post and then noticing that once again we got no info on them

Yes.

Also... to be clear here.

I haven't run any maths, but this appears as though it will completely negate the meager boosts they just gave dual wielders. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not going to widen the damage gap between jobs like thief or nin and war or sam even further?

Everything they do is just crazy over the top convoluted for no apparent reason at all.

[Delvish]

Yes.

Also... to be clear here.

I haven't run any maths, but this appears as though it will completely negate the meager boosts they just gave dual wielders. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not going to widen the damage gap between jobs like thief or nin and war or sam even further?

Everything they do is just crazy over the top convoluted for no apparent reason at all.

I don't see what the difference would be, beyond 2hd only using 1 weapon with a skill+, over dual wielders having to have two different levels of skill because it is rare. Even then it isn't any different from the norm, since all good gear is rare. All this really does is enhance the skill to the weapon's corresponding level. Dual wielders just need to get two.

[Trumpy]

Also if your left hand has accuracy and attack on it it will apply to both hands, just like 15 dex gets added to the pool of ur dex stat with your gear. the new skill stat will only work for the hand it is equipped on. there have been a few weapons in the past that only worked one way in main hand or woudlnt work at all in the sub slot. I think some of those older TP Bonus items were like that.

[FrankReynolds]

Also if your left hand has accuracy and attack on it it will apply to both hands, just like 15 dex gets added to the pool of ur dex stat with your gear. the new skill stat will only work for the hand it is equipped on. there have been a few weapons in the past that only worked one way in main hand or wouldn't work at all in the sub slot. I think some of those older TP Bonus items were like that.

Cool, but 188 skill equates to how much acc and attack? I'm currently unaware of any offhand dagger, axe, katana, club, sword that comes anywhere near that. Like I said, I could be way off here because I haven't crawled through all the new stuff they added. But, I don't think any amount of dual wield is gonna compensate for a loss like that. I mean twenty dex is not even gonna put a dent in 188 skill.

[Delvish]

Cool, but 188 skill equates to how much acc and attack? I'm currently unaware of any offhand dagger, axe, katana, club, sword that comes anywhere near that. Like I said, I could be way off here because I haven't crawled through all the new stuff they added. But, I don't think any amount of dual wield is gonna compensate for a loss like that. I mean twenty dex is not even gonna put a dent in 188 skill.

Lets go negative then and hit some numbers we DO know. At 99, A+ skill equates to 424 at cap before merits and gear. Now subtract 188. Your skill is then 236 which is the cap at level 67. Try hitting a level 99 something with your skills equivalent to 67. It's hard.

Now here we are with a Club, Axe, GAX, and Scythe with +188 skill. I think you are most concerned with the fact these are the only items out right now with these stats. Come the next update in August, ALL items above 100 will have an appropriate skill adjustment, including ones already out and to include RME when they are released in the future. As Matsui mentioned, the Bayld II weapons will only be in the 40s in skill, but that is their difference in item level from 99. The items out now, probably have an item level difference of 20, so 188 skill.

It is as though we leveled to that item's level, but didn't actually go through the painstaking process of actually skilling.

[Demon6324236]

I still don't like this system, especially if its only effecting a single hand... if you want to make it as though we leveled up, make it effect both hands, after all, my normal skill effects both hands, why the hell should my offhand always be forcibly gimp!? I am tired of having to make 1handed DDs suck, fixing STR/DEX ratio was 1 thing, I can accept not getting the extra Attack on my offhand, but this... this is stupid, and its just another way to hurt these jobs. No matter what happens, no matter what weapons get these stats, 1 of my weapons having roughly 190 more Attack and Accuracy on it severely gimps my other weapon by comparison. Stop fucking over 1 handed DDs so much, we already have flaws on these jobs, like having 2 different weapons, meaning 1 is always a lower DMG than the other, or how about how Dual Wield lowers our TP gain per hit? Just make it effect both, like it has the last decade, so its just like if we leveled, rather than screwing over the 1handed DDs once again.

[Delvish]

I still don't like this system, especially if its only effecting a single hand... if you want to make it as though we leveled up, make it effect both hands, after all, my normal skill effects both hands, why the hell should my offhand always be forcibly gimp!? I am tired of having to make 1handed DDs suck, fixing STR/DEX ratio was 1 thing, I can accept not getting the extra Attack on my offhand, but this... this is stupid, and its just another way to hurt these jobs. No matter what happens, no matter what weapons get these stats, 1 of my weapons having roughly 190 more Attack and Accuracy on it severely gimps my other weapon by comparison. Stop fucking over 1 handed DDs so much, we already have flaws on these jobs, like having 2 different weapons, meaning 1 is always a lower DMG than the other, or how about how Dual Wield lowers our TP gain per hit? Just make it effect both, like it has the last decade, so its just like if we leveled, rather than screwing over the 1handed DDs once again.

Your offhand isn't being forcibly gimp. There just aren't weapons available for your off-hand this month for an equivalent amount of skill. Say you were main-handing a lvl 120 Mandau with +188 skill, but off-hand Triplus for triple attack. You took a level 89 dagger to a level 120 fight. That is like taking a level 60 dagger to a level 99 fight. Even if your offhand is a standard 99 dagger, that is still equivalent to a level 69 dagger to a 99 fight. You just don't do it, unless you're trying to get TH+ (but that is a sore subject).

[Xerius]

That is like taking a level 60 dagger to a level 99 fight. Even if your offhand is a standard 99 dagger, that is still equivalent to a level 69 dagger to a 99 fight.

True but since you'd have your native skills capped on that job (most likely) even with a level 69 dagger you're not going to take that huge hit in accuracy a level 69 dagger and a level 99 dagger would have the same amount of accuracy and attack the only difference would be the damage rating on the 2 weapon.

[Kincard]

Do any of you have confidence in SE that they'll add 2 weapons of each ilevel in a timely manner when they don't even have 1 months after launch?

Just make it so that the skill+ is a "main-hand:" stat and have it apply to both hands. Problem solved. Doing it this way just makes it unnecessarily more difficult for one-handers which already have a hard time ever keeping up.

[Delvish]

They've already added a metric ton of new weapons. Bayld weapons, Wildskeeper rieves, Skirmish, Delve, etc. There is a decently large selection and each of them will get an associated skill+. You don't need two weapons for each level. Use a Skirmish and a Bayld. Skirmish and WK. Delve and WK. Eventually it'll be RME and Delve as the highest tier.

Edit: Even more weapons to come in the next update.

[Demon6324236]

Your offhand isn't being forcibly gimp. There just aren't weapons available for your off-hand this month for an equivalent amount of skill. Say you were main-handing a lvl 120 Mandau with +188 skill, but off-hand Triplus for triple attack. You took a level 89 dagger to a level 120 fight. That is like taking a level 60 dagger to a level 99 fight. Even if your offhand is a standard 99 dagger, that is still equivalent to a level 69 dagger to a 99 fight. You just don't do it, unless you're trying to get TH+ (but that is a sore subject).Here is the problem with that, they almost always seem to make a series of weapons these days, 1 for each class of weapon, and that is all. For instance, Delve bosses drop weapons, each of the weapons crafted by the items they drop seem to be in line with their stats we as well, putting them in the same class, the weapons from T4~5 are the same way, as are Coalition weapons. Going by this design, we will have 1 dagger, sword, katana, and so on, which is 188 skill, the rest will not have that much, which means my skill in my other hand is lower.

Now here is where the problem gets worse, we basically just advanced 20 levels, how many weapons are there within these 20 levels? For each class of weapon we basically have 1 weapon. So for instance, my RDM, lets see how many weapons at 100+ I have for CQB... 1 from Coalitions, the crafted Bihkah/+1 sword, 1 from Reives, 1 from Skirmish, soon another from Skirmish, 1 from T4~5 Delve, and 1 from Delve Bosses. So 6~7 weapons for RDM in 20 levels of growth, even if you add proper skill to each of them, there are no 2 weapons at the same level in a class of weapons so far as I know. Since 2handed jobs get the full effects from their skill level, as it only takes your main hand, WAR, SAM, DRK, and so on are all at full power, while 1handed jobs are screwed with or without a single weapon with these skill levels, as 1 of our hands will always be far weaker than the other. That is the real issue, and now they are just shitting on 1handed jobs again by making our offhand even worse...

[FrankReynolds]

Here is the problem with that, they almost always seem to make a series of weapons these days, 1 for each class of weapon, and that is all. For instance, Delve bosses drop weapons, each of the weapons crafted by the items they drop seem to be in line with their stats we as well, putting them in the same class, the weapons from T4~5 are the same way, as are Coalition weapons. Going by this design, we will have 1 dagger, sword, katana, and so on, which is 188 skill, the rest will not have that much, which means my skill in my other hand is lower.

Now here is where the problem gets worse, we basically just advanced 20 levels, how many weapons are there within these 20 levels? For each class of weapon we basically have 1 weapon. So for instance, my RDM, lets see how many weapons at 100+ I have for CQB... 1 from Coalitions, the crafted Bihkah/+1 sword, 1 from Reives, 1 from Skirmish, soon another from Skirmish, 1 from T4~5 Delve, and 1 from Delve Bosses. So 6~7 weapons for RDM in 20 levels of growth, even if you add proper skill to each of them, there are no 2 weapons at the same level in a class of weapons so far as I know. Since 2handed jobs get the full effects from their skill level, as it only takes your main hand, WAR, SAM, DRK, and so on are all at full power, while 1handed jobs are screwed with or without a single weapon with these skill levels, as 1 of our hands will always be far weaker than the other. That is the real issue, and now they are just shitting on 1handed jobs again by making our offhand even worse...

Not only that, but you will have to obtain twice as many weapons in order to still do shittier damage than a one handed job.

[Delvish]

To me, it seems like your issue is with the large quantity of R/EX gear and less with this skill adjustment. They aren't lowering anything or making things worse. Now you can hit stuff better and hit stuff harder. This issue with dual-wielders not wielding the same thing in both hands has been around for as long as Dual-wield has been around.

[FrankReynolds]

To me, it seems like your issue is with the large quantity of R/EX gear and less with this skill adjustment. They aren't lowering anything or making things worse. Now you can hit stuff better and hit stuff harder. This issue with dual-wielders not wielding the same thing in both hands has been around for as long as Dual-wield has been around.

Do you have any idea what the hit rate and attack differences are on a weapon with 188 skill versus a weapon with 67 skill? They shouldn't even be in the same game together.

EDIT: Besides, since when does 10 years of bad design warrant ten more? And Why is is okay for them to release everything a 2 hander needs in the weapon slot, but only half of what dual wielders need?

Would you have been okay with it if they had said "Oh hai guyz! In this update we will be raising the level cap from 99 to 120... for everyone except for these 6 jobs. If you are a ninja, thief, red mage, blue mage, dancer, BST or really just anyone who uses two weapons, you will remain 20 levels lower than everyone else for the next couple months, or maybe forever. Who knows..."

Because that's basically what they said.

[Demon6324236]

To me, it seems like your issue is with the large quantity of R/EX gear and less with this skill adjustment. They aren't lowering anything or making things worse. Now you can hit stuff better and hit stuff harder. This issue with dual-wielders not wielding the same thing in both hands has been around for as long as Dual-wield has been around.The thing is, the gap between hands is getting bigger, not smaller, which also creates a larger gap between 1handed and 2handed, which in the end results in 1handers being even further behind. The larger the gap gets between a 1handed job's weapons, the worse the job will be, and this change is only making that issue worse.