[dev1143] One-handed and Ranged Weapon Adjustments

[Nebo]

[dev1143] One-handed and Ranged Weapon Adjustments

Status adjustments for one-handed weapons (hand-to-hand weapons included) and ranged weapons will be increased as given below.

The end result is that status adjustments for main-hand weapons will be the same as for two-handed weapons.
One-handed Weapons
Main Weapons Pre-adjustment Post-adjustment
Attack (STR) 50% → 75%
Accuracy (DEX) 50% → 75%

Sub Weapons Pre-adjustment Post-adjustment
Accuracy (DEX) 50% → 75%

Why are dual wield jobs (read not H2H and Ranged Jobs) getting specifically penalized yet again with this update. What is the purpose of giving them the shaft with the STR > ATT ratio in the offhand.

We are already sent to the back of the bus when starting delve because we can only use one delve weapon, and one weak, pre-delve weapon.

2 Handed weapon users don't have to deal with this significant setback, MNK/PUP don't have to deal wit this, Ranged Jobs don't have to deal with this....why do jobs that depend on dual wield (THF DNC NIN BLU BST) continually get the shaft in SoA?

It certainly isn't because any of these jobs are in danger of becoming over powered....so what is it?

[Demon6324236]

I am happy with those changes myself, but eh.

[Kincard]

I'm glad they're changing anything at all, but I don't understand why the Dev Team is still operating under the delusion that one-handed jobs are anything but massively behind two-hander jobs.

In b4 "utility"-give me a tell the next time you need a NIN to Aisha Taxet or a BLU to get Tourbillion resisted by anything.

[Anjou]

God I want Tourbillion, that and Thunderbolt... :<

[Nebo]

I'm glad they're changing anything at all, but I don't understand why the Dev Team is still operating under the delusion that one-handed jobs are anything but massively behind two-hander jobs.

In b4 "utility"-give me a tell he next time you need a NIN to Aisha Taxet or a BLU to get Tourbillion resisted by anything.

This is the real issue. I'm glad they are making these changes, but dual wield jobs are so far behind 2 handers right now, there is really no good reason to have the STR>ATT adjustment only effect the main hand.

They really need to stop looking to the past for reasons not to make updates now. "RDM is too powerful" "THF will steal and hide for gold coins if we give them anything worthwhile" "Dual Wields will far outshine 2 Handers because of attack speed"

Look. Development Bros:

You have already updated the game in several ways that addressed all of these issues and more. You've sufficiently killed everything I just mentioned. Stop making updates based on the past and take a look at what is happening in the game RIGHT NOW.

Let go ....don't fear the past. Embrace the present and make updates for the future. PLEASE.

[darkhorror]

That the boost is nice, but as others have said it didn't solve the problems with 1hand jobs being much weaker than 2hand. One of the problems is the 20% total delay reduction cap, make that cap only effect haste so that the delay reduction from DW makes it go lower than 20%. Right now in a high haste situations you have 1handers with the same reduction as 2hander, and since 2hander is all haste they don't get lowered TP per hit. If you want them to both to be able to get the same total delay reduction get rid of the lowered tp per hit when dual wielding.

Edit: I would suggest just remove the lowering of TP when you use DW.

[Kincard]

It's true that an adjustment of some kind to the haste/DW would be the easiest way to rebalance 1H vs 2H, but it's probably hard to do it while taking into consideration how content will be affected by it. I do recall Matsui mentioning something about adjusting how haste works a while back, but then there's a lot of things that have been said once and then never heard about again.

I can probably do it myself when I find some time, but can any math wizes around here try calculating what would happen if they allowed DW and Martial Arts to be counted outside the 80% delay cap? I think it might be an interesting thing to look at. There's a part of me that thinks that even if I was able to get 50% DW past that 80% haste (That is, total 90% delay reduction) I would still not match up to 2-handers because of greatly inferior weapon skills. I wouldn't mind that though- I do actually think 1-handers should be weaker than 2-handers in the right situations, just not this much.

It should also again be noted that for a lot of the jobs it's not just a question of 1H vs 2H but also problems with how the jobs themselves are designed that have caused them to fall behind even more, that is, NIN, DRG (with no Ryunohige), and BST (if you want to count it). Not sure how PUP is doing with Alternator now. You can possibly toss in RUN with those but I'm less concerned about that one since it's probably going to get lots and lots of updates in the coming months. IIRC THF falls behind DNC nowadays, figured I'd mention that while insignificant things like steal/despoil is getting adjusted. >_>

[darkhorror]

It's true that an adjustment of some kind to the haste/DW would be the easiest way to rebalance 1H vs 2H, but it's probably hard to do it while taking into consideration how content will be affected by it. I do recall Matsui mentioning something about adjusting how haste works a while back, but then there's a lot of things that have been said once and then never heard about again.

I can probably do it myself when I find some time, but can any math wizes around here try calculating what would happen if they allowed DW and Martial Arts to be counted outside the 80% delay cap? I think it might be an interesting thing to look at. There's a part of me that thinks that even if I was able to get 50% DW past that 80% haste (That is, total 90% delay reduction) I would still not match up to 2-handers because of greatly inferior weapon skills. I wouldn't mind that though- I do actually think 1-handers should be weaker than 2-handers in the right situations, just not this much.

This would be very nice for MNK, DNC, and NIN since they all get a lot of delay reduction and DNC has haste samba. But for other jobs who get less or need to use a sub to get DW they need capped magic haste, haste gear and haste samba to be able to break 80% delay reduction. This would fix it for MNK, DNC and NIN as they all would be getting TP much quicker in high haste situations and doing much more DPS from melee. But wouldn't help other 1hand jobs so much.

This is why I would say just get rid of the TP reduction from DW, and keep it how it is right now for MA. That would basically just increase WS frequency for all DW jobs by quite a bit which seems to be the main problem. 2Hand jobs already have extra haste abilities so they are able to get to the 80% reduction cap without losing TP like 1hand and DW. So basically what this would do is make it so both 1hand and 2hand would be able to hit the 80% reduction cap in high haste situations without the 30-40% tp reduction that DW jobs get vs 2hand. MNK should already be alright since they have a much higher melee DPS weapon which keeps up with 2hand. If you want to add something to give them higher TP gain just give them a new kick attack DMG+ delve quality foot piece for use with footwork.

[Kincard]

BLU and THF both have DW3 and they hit the 80% delay cap pretty easily when they're in big groups (assuming they're in the appropriate party), and that's the situation we're talking about anyway.

[darkhorror]

BLU and THF both have DW3 and they hit the 80% delay cap pretty easily when they're in big groups (assuming they're in the appropriate party), and that's the situation we're talking about anyway.

With 30% DW delay reduction, and 68.75% haste(25% from gear 43.75% from spells) that puts you at 78.125% Delay reduction. The problem is that if you remove the cap is that it doesn't really add anything unless you add haste samba. And this seems to be the problem where 2hand have things that add more to haste which puts them at or very close to the cap in the same situation. So they get much more TP over time since both are capped but DW removes a lot of the tp per hit.

[Nebo]

I do actually think 1-handers should be weaker than 2-handers in the right situations

I disagree.

When you have a game like this with all kinds of different DD job (that take so much time and effort to build up and gear well), making a select few fundamentally more powerful than all the rest just leads to the job exclusion that we currently have.

I always see people arguing that 1-handers have more utility but this really isn't true. And even if it were, no 1-hander job has utility that is currently worth replacing a better DD slot.

Melee utility without viable DD potential is really no utility at all.

But even looking at the current #1 "Heavy DD" most ppl ask for: DRK, they are sitting on crap tons of utility in addition to their firepower.


They can stun and weapon bash (arguably one of the most useful secondary tools a dd can have).
They can deal physical, magical and non-elemental damage.
They have a unique line of absorb Debuff/buffs that contains many useful spells.
They have a selection of weapons like Apoc and Twilight that allow them to adapt to various situations and play styles.
They have JA's to buff their party against Arcana and enfeeble arcana.
DRK can Sleep/Break and help with crowd control
Dispel+absorb enhancement effects
Dread spikes


The list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, this is not me crying "overpowered" at DRK. I have always been of the belief that melee DDs should all be relatively competitive in terms of DD potential and differentiated by play style and secondary utility features.

I don't believe that a job like THF should be a weak DD because it has a weak RNG enhancing trait like Treasure Hunter, just the same as I don't believe that DRK's attack power should be brought down because it has all these other utility aspects.

[Kincard]

You are correct that the heavy jobs have utility of their own, but I was more referring to the ability for light DDs to do better than 2Hers when you're sparse on buffs (so basically Salvage and erm...Dynamis and Skirmish, maybe, all depends on if you have a BRD basically). So they either have to balance out both sides or make it so that the difference between light DDs and heavy DDs is small enough that people don't care.

[Ophannus]

I think they didnt include offhand because usually dual wielding gives higher +stats than 2handed does. Like you can mainhand a 99 emp that gives +25 to a stat then offhand a magian with +22 attack and 11 STR. No 2hand+grip combo gives a stat bonus that large.

[darkhorror]

I think they didnt include offhand because usually dual wielding gives higher +stats than 2handed does. Like you can mainhand a 99 emp that gives +25 to a stat then offhand a magian with +22 attack and 11 STR. No 2hand+grip combo gives a stat bonus that large.

Yeah but the damage of offhand is usually lower anyway so you do get some extra stats but you lose on the base damage.

[Nebo]

I think they didnt include offhand because usually dual wielding gives higher +stats than 2handed does. Like you can mainhand a 99 emp that gives +25 to a stat then offhand a magian with +22 attack and 11 STR. No 2hand+grip combo gives a stat bonus that large.

2 hand bonus by virtue of being 2 handers get a much larger base damage boost from capping fSTR, benefit more from STP and haste and immensely powerful WS spam and native job abilities and traits that enhance att acc etc.

No amount of stats on an offhand weapon is going to make up for this.

Speaking of immensely powerful WS spam, most "Heavy DDs" also get WS MODs that actually make sense (STR) and allow them to triple dip with WS MODS, fSTR and Attack just by stacking STR. Whereas current best non RME dagger WS is AGI for example, which only adds base damage and forces you to try and play catch-up elsewhere for other vital stats.

No offhand weapon stats will make up for this either.

On top of all of this...with this update 2 Handers will STILL be getting more ATT from STR, which is why this exclusion of STR => ATT adjustment from the offhand is unreasonable.

You are probably right. That is probably their reason. But it's either because they don't understand or didn't consider these mechanics in the scope of this update, or because they want 1 handers to stay fundamentally weaker.

[Kincard]

Speaking of immensely powerful WS spam, most "Heavy DDs" also get WS MODs that actually make sense (STR) and allow them to triple dip with WS MODS, fSTR and Attack just by stacking STR.

lol yeah, they kinda screwed a lot of the one-handers with their WSs.

There's stuff like Ninja where you get an AGI-based Crit weapon skill and a DEX-based non Crit weapon skill with an attack penalty. If high DEX is supposed to be a boon for one-handers you'd think they let us capitalize on it more. >_>

The WSs that get multiple dips are CDC, Mercy Stroke, Stacked Rudra's and Ruinator. Holy shit they got it so right with Ruinator- make every other one-hander WS more like Ruinator.

[Demon6324236]

There's stuff like Ninja where you get an AGI-based Crit weapon skill and a DEX-based non Crit weapon skill with an attack penalty.I personally like to delude myself into thinking that the Bow and Katana WSs got confused somehow by the people who were programing the WSs, and SE still has yet to notice, that's why we have a crit WS based on AGI for NIN, and a crit WS based on DEX for RNG.

[Byrth]

If it makes you feel better, the offhand for H2H will probably not get an attack boost either. They always seem to treat it separately.

But yeah, remaining things that separate 1H DDs from 2H DDs are:
1) The Delay Cap
2) WS options - To a much lesser extent

They're probably never going to fix the one that matters because it creates such a convenient two-tiered system. At the delay cap, 2H DDs generally crush 1H DDs. Before reaching the delay cap, 1H DDs are very competitive with / better than 2H DDs and are far more durable.

[Himrik]

We are already sent to the back of the bus when starting delve because we can only use one delve weapon, and one weak, pre-delve weapon.

You're aware that 2-handed and HtoH jobs can only use ONE delve weapon, too ?
And they can't equip a second weapon to benefit all the bonuses it can offer

[Nebo]

You're aware that 2-handed and HtoH jobs can only use ONE delve weapon, too ?
And they can't equip a second weapon to benefit all the bonuses it can offer

....Not sure if serious?

[Demon6324236]

You're aware that 2-handed and HtoH jobs can only use ONE delve weapon, too ?
And they can't equip a second weapon to benefit all the bonuses it can offerTwo handed jobs can only use one, but only need one, DW jobs rely on two weapons to do the job, if you have a Delve weapon in one hand that's great, but your other hand can not, they are R/EX and the chances of having boss drops are laughable right now, which means your sitting on Skirmish or RME weapons as your best so far as I know. That means you will be main handing one weapon with twice as much damage as your offhand weapon most likely, which is poor and lowers your damage. The point here being that two handed jobs only need a single weapon so that's fine for them but DW jobs need two, its a simple concept, and a drawback on DW jobs that hinders them once again.

[Aezelas]

Bst can DW delve axe and sword.
Nin can DW delve katana and dagger (and sword)
Blu can DW delve sword and club.
Thf can DW delve dagger and sword

Dnc is the only dw job screwed, right?

[Alpheus]

Think thf also since they have a D rank in sword

[Demon6324236]

Again, downfall of the 1 handed jobs, two handed jobs get to wield a single weapon from Delve which is based on their strongest skill, while a handed jobs would have to play mix and match to get it while lowering their offhand's abilities due to weaker skill.

[Aezelas]

Again, downfall of the 1 handed jobs, two handed jobs get to wield a single weapon from Delve which is based on their strongest skill, while a handed jobs would have to play mix and match to get it while lowering their offhand's abilities due to weaker skill.

True, and i didn't mean that 1-handed jobs don't have issues.
I only meant that with delve weapons base dmg, 1-handed are given a more than decent choice of offhand weapon, even with a C or D rank in skill.

I got myself the dagger for my dnc, and it's far from useless for my nin too.

[Nebo]

Bst can DW delve axe and sword.
Nin can DW delve katana and dagger (and sword)
Blu can DW delve sword and club.
Thf can DW delve dagger and sword

Dnc is the only dw job screwed, right?

THF Dual Wielding the sword would be worse than dual wielding a Thief's knife. We would't be able to hit anything in SoA. Sword is 99 Skillpoints behind Dagger

Every job that relies on Dual Wield got screwed. Because H2H and 2Hand weapons are giant leaps ahead in DPS from previous Best weapons and they can make 100% use of that DPS increase with their A rank weapon and Main WS.

Every other Dual wield job has to use inferior weapons and gets a significantly lower dps increase from only being able to use one A ranked Delve weapon.

[Demon6324236]

I just didn't want it to take away from the fact that when it comes to weapons, Two Handed jobs are getting the better side of the deal no matter how you look at it because having to rely on two separate weapons almost always comes back to bite you, be it in DMG differences, or skill differences, right now 1 handed jobs are hurt.

[Nebo]

I only meant that with delve weapons base dmg, 1-handed are given a more than decent choice of offhand weapon, even with a C or D rank in skill.

No they aren't. Nothing that is not a delve weapon right now is a "decent" offhand weapon.

Using D ranked weapons for significant reductions in accuracy and attack..or in some cases inferior WS due to switching weapons around is not "decent"

2 handers and H2H are making giant leaps in DPS with these weapons. The huge difference in performance relative to these jobs is the issue, not that Dual wield jobs can't equip any old weapon and hit things.

[Taint2]

Again, downfall of the 1 handed jobs, two handed jobs get to wield a single weapon from Delve which is based on their strongest skill, while a handed jobs would have to play mix and match to get it while lowering their offhand's abilities due to weaker skill.



Ofcourse dual wielders can also Offhand the upgraded delve weapons and main hand the boss drops. (or REM once update) While 2handers will have wasted airlixirs/plasma once they get a boss drop or their respective REM is upgraded.

[Demon6324236]

Rather waste Plasm and lixers on a weapon I will outdate sometime than to have to offhand a weaker weapon in my optimum setup. Thing is we sit here talking about all of this and the RME changes will basically fix it all on its own I think, so either way it should be ok, but for now it sucks.

[hiko]

With 30% DW delay reduction, and 68.75% haste(25% from gear 43.75% from spells) that puts you at 78.125% Delay reduction. The problem is that if you remove the cap is that it doesn't really add anything unless you add haste samba. And this seems to be the problem where 2hand have things that add more to haste which puts them at or very close to the cap in the same situation. So they get much more TP over time since both are capped but DW removes a lot of the tp per hit.
25+43.5+10=68.5
only sam (empy+2leg) or drk(not full time) can cap haste without an haste sambaer


THF Dual Wielding the sword would be worse than dual wielding a Thief's knife. We would't be able to hit anything in SoA. Sword is 99 Skillpoints behind Dagger

Every job that relies on Dual Wield got screwed. Because H2H and 2Hand weapons are giant leaps ahead in DPS from previous Best weapons and they can make 100% use of that DPS increase with their A rank weapon and Main WS.

Every other Dual wield job has to use inferior weapons and gets a significantly lower dps increase from only being able to use one A ranked Delve weapon.

no dual wield don't have to use an inferior weapon, not when before update it's already benn mathed that single wield > DW a pre SoAweapon and that update increase that gap (lower attack offhand)

[Nebo]

no dual wield don't have to use an inferior weapon, not when before update it's already benn mathed that single wield > DW a pre SoAweapon and that update increase that gap (lower attack offhand)

Even if that were true (It's not btw, Single wielding a Delve dagger is not more DPS than dual wielding other pre-elve daggers), inferior in this case refers to its poor damage relative to other DD's that do not have to deal with this setback.

The dual wield scenario right now is inferior in every possible way in terms of accessing delve.

[darkhorror]

25+43.5+10=68.5
only sam (empy+2leg) or drk(not full time) can cap haste without an haste sambaer

25+43.5+10=78.5

[Himrik]

THF Dual Wielding the sword would be worse than dual wielding a Thief's knife.
Darn, you mean THF can apply greater TH effect AND wield a very powerful weapon to DPS... and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?
Or even wield a Delve weapon in one hand and an OAT in the other

Screwed indeed :p

[Nebo]

Darn, you mean THF can apply greater TH effect AND wield a very powerful weapon to DPS... and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?
Or even wield a Delve weapon in one hand and an OAT in the other


Everything you just described falls under the "vastly inferior" category that we have been referring to with regard to dual wield and pre-delve weapons.

Also, this is false:


and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?

The offhand hit(s) still uses the D value of your offhand weapon (and now STR>ATT correction with this update).

The DPS hit you would take by using a Thief's knife wasn't even worth off-handing in mass fodder kill events (like Dynamis or Delve Currently) BEFORE delve weapons came onto the scene. I was just using it as an absurd example to illustrate how bad of an idea it would be to offhand the delve sword on THF.

OAT daggers were also inferior to other off-hand options pre-delve, this has not changed.

Especially for THF, which only really becomes a relevant melee slot in certain events with R/E WS in the first place. Yet another kick to the nuts with these delve weapons which will be (hopefully) adjusted with the RME updates but is still a significant barrier of access to plasm farm groups when before they could perform decently with a 90 EMP or 95 relic.

Now they HAVE to be 99'd to be worth anything at all. And all other dagger WS are (wait for it) "Vastly Inferior" to mainstream DD WS on anything worthwhile (even delve plasm fodder).


Screwed indeed :p

Precisely.

[Camate]

Greetings,

There has been a variety of feedback both for and against these changes, especially in regards to how it will affect those that dual wield and use hand-to-hand weapons. The development team's goal is to make adjustments so that there is balance between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons.

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

We'll continue to update you on any planned changes!

[Nebo]

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

Is this just for Hand-to-Hand weapons or all one-handed (dual wield) weapons?

[darkhorror]

Darn, you mean THF can apply greater TH effect AND wield a very powerful weapon to DPS... and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?
Or even wield a Delve weapon in one hand and an OAT in the other

Screwed indeed :p

Off handing a weapon that does so much less damage than the main hand weapon hurt's the DPS by a LOT. Where as when you only have a single weapon, you don't get that reduction of DPS from the offhand. Since both can get very close or hit the delay reduction cap the DW makes it so you have much less TP gain vs 2hand near or at cap.

[darkhorror]

The reason MNK is able to keep up with 2hand, while DW falls behind is that who ever makes the weapons for MNK seems to think of their delay as counting for only 1hand, while you get two hits during that delay.

It's obvious when you look at H2H compared to other weapons. All the other delve weapons are in the 27.4 DPS range when you look purely DMG vs Delay on the weapon, 1hand and 2hand are all about the same. Where as MNK Rigor's +60 delay puts it at 340 delay, +101 +51 puts it at 152 dmg, so that puts a single first at 152 dmg, 170 delay, which is 53.6 DPS. Now lets look at it without martial arts so lets say 480 delay +60 or 540 delay/2 = 270 delay per first +152 dmg. Even that is 33.8 DPS, so in high haste situations MNK DPS will still be strong vs other jobs. DW doesn't get this advantage in high haste situations, they lose TP from DW, and they have to offhand a weaker weapon.

[Theytak]

The reason MNK is able to keep up with 2hand, while DW falls behind is that who ever makes the weapons for MNK seems to think of their delay as counting for only 1hand, while you get two hits during that delay.

It's obvious when you look at H2H compared to other weapons. All the other delve weapons are in the 27.4 DPS range when you look purely DMG vs Delay on the weapon, 1hand and 2hand are all about the same. Where as MNK Rigor's +60 delay puts it at 340 delay, +101 +51 puts it at 152 dmg, so that puts a single first at 152 dmg, 170 delay, which is 53.6 DPS. Now lets look at it without martial arts so lets say 480 delay +60 or 540 delay/2 = 270 delay per first +152 dmg. Even that is 33.8 DPS, so in high haste situations MNK DPS will still be strong vs other jobs. DW doesn't get this advantage in high haste situations, they lose TP from DW, and they have to offhand a weaker weapon.

technically speaking, martial arts costs TP/hit just the same as DW, since they're both outright delay reductions rather than haste effects. Not saying that I disagree with you, since I'm a mnk and a pup and I know full well how strong h2h has always been, but I thought that was worth clarifying.

[darkhorror]

technically speaking, martial arts costs TP/hit just the same as DW, since they're both outright delay reductions rather than haste effects. Not saying that I disagree with you, since I'm a mnk and a pup and I know full well how strong h2h has always been, but I thought that was worth clarifying.

Yeah, the point I was trying to make was that H2H is strong because of it's high base DPS, so it can make up for the loss of TP and WS frequency with melee damage.

[Himrik]

Off handing a weapon that does so much less damage than the main hand weapon hurt's the DPS by a LOT.
Off handing a weapon gives you the second weapon bonuses, be it Accuracy, Attack, stats, etc...
You can keep the severe damage from coruscanti, the critical damage boost from Aluh Jambiya or the eightfold attacks from Kraken Club (You won't have to worry for you DPS when you can WS every 5 seconds), and there are craftable weapons with very high DPS.

With the exact same modifiers, Dual Wield is way too overpowered. It's why 2-handed weapons were changed in the first place. Change dual wield, and in several months, no one will ever use 2-handed, so SE will need to upgrade the bonuses, so people will complain about one handed weapons, etc, etc...until anyone can OS any monster.

[FrankReynolds]

Off handing a weapon gives you the second weapon bonuses, be it Accuracy, Attack, stats, etc...
You can keep the severe damage from coruscanti, the critical damage boost from Aluh Jambiya or the eightfold attacks from Kraken Club (You won't have to worry for you DPS when you can WS every 5 seconds), and there are craftable weapons with very high DPS.

With the exact same modifiers, Dual Wield is way too overpowered. It's why 2-handed weapons were changed in the first place. Change dual wield, and in several months, no one will ever use 2-handed, so SE will need to upgrade the bonuses, so people will complain about one handed weapons, etc, etc...until anyone can OS any monster.

Dual wielders aren't even close to surpassing 2 handers in damage. Don't kid yourself. That bonus stat from the offhand doesn't change anything.

[Kincard]

If you seriously think that the stats from offhand can overpower the base damage and fSTR cap differences you probably don't know very much about how the game works. In order for it to happen they'd need to add some very overpowered weapons that work for the offhand.

That aside, I'm not sure how to feel about the decided change for MNKs. It's true that they are stronger than all the other 1Hers but last I checked they were still pretty behind jobs like WAR and DRK when the buffs go up. Not sure how big the difference is though.

[woie]

Greetings,

There has been a variety of feedback both for and against these changes, especially in regards to how it will affect those that dual wield and use hand-to-hand weapons. The development team's goal is to make adjustments so that there is balance between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons.

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

We'll continue to update you on any planned changes!

but giving us a 141 dmg H2H weapon was fine.... i lol'd

[FrankReynolds]

If you seriously think that the stats from offhand can overpower the base damage and fSTR cap differences you probably don't know very much about how the game works. In order for it to happen they'd need to add some very overpowered weapons that work for the offhand.

That aside, I'm not sure how to feel about the decided change for MNKs. It's true that they are stronger than all the other 1Hers but last I checked they were still pretty behind jobs like WAR and DRK when the buffs go up. Not sure how big the difference is though.

I'm more concerned with how fragile monk is. I haven't done any Delve NMs etc. with any super elite geared groups, just pickups. My damage seems fine VS Sams, Drks etc., but perfect dodge counter doesn't keep you alive like seigon / third eye when that mob turns your way.

[Cream_Soda]

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

And comparing to DW, we get no kinds of stats to put in the offhand at all. Can't add a lower delay wep in the offhand to enhance martial arts. Can't put something with acc/attack/crit damage in the offhand.

There's no reason for the second punch to be treated as an offhand to begin with. There's no bonus for that slot that every other job has access to.

[Mirage]

Greetings,

There has been a variety of feedback both for and against these changes, especially in regards to how it will affect those that dual wield and use hand-to-hand weapons. The development team's goal is to make adjustments so that there is balance between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons.

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

We'll continue to update you on any planned changes!
Bolded text for emphasis. Are you saying that some people are against the idea of boosting one handed weapons? Because I have a hard time believing that. In that case, who are against it?

Could you also comment on the issue of only increasing the accuracy of the sub-slot weapon? In which instances would dual wielders such as thf, dnc, nin and blu be getting too much attack power by having their sub-weapon also gain 75% of their STR as attack?

[Byrth]

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

And comparing to DW, we get no kinds of stats to put in the offhand at all. Can't add a lower delay wep in the offhand to enhance martial arts. Can't put something with acc/attack/crit damage in the offhand.

There's no reason for the second punch to be treated as an offhand to begin with. There's no bonus for that slot that every other job has access to.

This is a stupid argument and you should feel embarrassed putting it forward. Look at other posts in this thread.

[Babekeke]

This is a stupid argument and you should feel embarrassed putting it forward. Look at other posts in this thread.

Of course it's stupid. He recommends SV marchES along with Embrava, and in his previous post he said how Perfect Dodge doesn't help MNK much lol.

[Cream_Soda]

This is a stupid argument and you should feel embarrassed putting it forward. Look at other posts in this thread.
meh, was half asleep; at least give h2h grips if they want to go back and gimp the update before even implementing it


Of course it's stupid. He recommends SV marchES along with Embrava, and in his previous post he said how Perfect Dodge doesn't help MNK much lol.
never recommended it was just throwing out haste buffs off the top of my head; though I actually went back and double checked if I posted perfect dodge. Was pretty lulz and looks like I didn't :(

[darkhorror]

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)


Except you only need 66% haste to reach cap on MNK, with 25% from gear that means you only need an extra 41% from spells. Marchx2 and Haste spell does that, Embrava and Haste spell puts you at 40% which would mean bard could do attack or acc songs instead.

Oh and spell haste caps at ~43.5% so as long as you are getting haste spell SV marchex2 is a waste, or march, and embrava is also a waste.

[Camate]

Is this just for Hand-to-Hand weapons or all one-handed (dual wield) weapons?

The adjustment mentioned in my previous post is only for hand-to-hand weapons.

This is being adjusted in order to tone down damage dealt from weapon skills; however, regular attacks will not see much of a difference from this change.

[Cream_Soda]

Except you only need 66% haste to reach cap on MNK, with 25% from gear that means you only need an extra 41% from spells. Marchx2 and Haste spell does that, Embrava and Haste spell puts you at 40% which would mean bard could do attack or acc songs instead.

Oh and spell haste caps at ~43.5% so as long as you are getting haste spell SV marchex2 is a waste, or march, and embrava is also a waste.
One post above you brah

was just throwing out haste buffs off the top of my head

[Babekeke]

though I actually went back and double checked if I posted perfect dodge. Was pretty lulz and looks like I didn't :(

Sorry about that. It seems I've been posting whilst drunk >.>

And you're right it was Frankreynolds in the post above yours that said how PD does little for MNK.

[hiko]

We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters(for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

clears report i got set ups:
-type1: anhi/yoichi RNG as main DDs
-type2 : (mnk*2 DD cor brd whm)*2 +magePT

that make more place for mnk than for 2hander

[Zhronne]

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

And comparing to DW, we get no kinds of stats to put in the offhand at all. Can't add a lower delay wep in the offhand to enhance martial arts. Can't put something with acc/attack/crit damage in the offhand.

There's no reason for the second punch to be treated as an offhand to begin with. There's no bonus for that slot that every other job has access to.

Wow wow wow.... is this really Cream Soda posting? Or an alien troll who took control of his body?
Whoa...

[FrankReynolds]

Sorry about that. It seems I've been posting whilst drunk >.>

And you're right it was Frankreynolds in the post above yours that said how PD does little for MNK.

Just finished reading the thief forums before I posted that. lol Seriously though. Monk needs to be a little less squishy imo.

[Oddwaffle]

I think it's time to introduce the long overdue sub slot for H2H: Grip, tape, cloth, warps...whatever name they come up with it.

Mnk: Increase kick attack damage and/or frequency, more martial arts delay bonus, store TP...etc
Pup: Enhance pet effect, haste, accuracy...etc

BTW, Footwork is very very useless now. Any reason why it should not be removed or changed?

[darkhorror]

One post above you brah

Except I was talking about where you said "We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso."

MNK only needs 66% haste to cap haste so doesn't need hasso, with 25% haste gear you don't even need to cap magic haste to cap delay reduction on MNK.

[Oddwaffle]

I think what he mean is Mnk has similar or even higher delay in high buff situations than say a 2H weapon job (war or drg for example). This is because the natural delay of empty H2H is 480. If you add in the weapon delay of +86, you get a 566 delay weapon that does not have the bonus of extra TP given by 2H weapon (the TP gain chart shows high TP gain on high delay weapon but doesn't seem to work with H2H). 2H weapon can easily reach 75% delay reduction with Hasso and cap haste (69%? haste) without losing any of the large TP it naturally gives. On the other hand, H2H has higher base delay and suffer from the reduced TP gain from martial arts trait.

I think this is one of the reason why SE is giving very high DPS for H2H weapon.

[Byrth]

Look at this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34323-dev1143-One-handed-and-Ranged-Weapon-Adjustments?p=442053&viewfull=1#post442053).

Re-cap:
Monk with 7/8 or 8/8 H2H merits and Rigor Baghnakhs has a base damage per hand of 152 and a base DPS of 33.8 (with 0 Martial Arts traits).
Every other melee Delve weapon has 27.3~27.5 DPS.
Mage Delve weapons have ~23 DPS.

Hand-to-hand has a >20% weapon DPS advantage over other jobs, which they still possess at the delay cap. Monk has the distinction of being essentially the only 1H DD used in endgame at the moment because of this reason and their large HP pools.

Apart from "I want to fill the equipment slot", I can't see any compelling argument for giving "knuckle grips" or whatever other stupid shit monks have proposed over the years.



Nerf monk and buff 1H DDs so that they're all as powerful as monk currently is.

[MarkovChain]

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

[darkhorror]

Look at this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34323-dev1143-One-handed-and-Ranged-Weapon-Adjustments?p=442053&viewfull=1#post442053).

Re-cap:
Monk with 7/8 or 8/8 H2H merits and Rigor Baghnakhs has a base damage per hand of 152 and a base DPS of 33.8 (with 0 Martial Arts traits).
Every other melee Delve weapon has 27.3~27.5 DPS.
Mage Delve weapons have ~23 DPS.

Hand-to-hand has a >20% weapon DPS advantage over other jobs, which they still possess at the delay cap. Monk has the distinction of being essentially the only 1H DD used in endgame at the moment because of this reason and their large HP pools.

Apart from "I want to fill the equipment slot", I can't see any compelling argument for giving "knuckle grips" or whatever other stupid shit monks have proposed over the years.



Nerf monk and buff 1H DDs so that they're all as powerful as monk currently is.

That is the main reason MNK can keep up with 2handers, and it's the reason 1hand jobs fall behind in damage dealing.

[Babekeke]

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

You've obviously not seen a gimp SAM with delve weapon out-DDing pretty much everyone with the brokenness that is Tachi: Shoha.

[Nebo]

anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

Except for all those silly DRKS running around hitting things with their Greatswords?

[Mirage]

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

MarkovChain for most dogmatic member 2013.

[Taint2]

You've obviously not seen a gimp SAM with delve weapon out-DDing pretty much everyone with the brokenness that is Tachi: Shoha.



Shoha isn't even SAMs best Weapon Skill.....

[Mirage]

That's situational.

[Demon6324236]

Shoha isn't even SAMs best Weapon Skill.....Doesn't have to be the best to be broken, and once we can unlock RE WSs, SAM will only get better.

[svengalis]

You've obviously not seen a gimp SAM with delve weapon out-DDing pretty much everyone with the brokenness that is Tachi: Shoha.

^or resolution dark knight.

don't know what that guy is talking about.

[CrAZYVIC]

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

I would put no Pup in the idk. Pup with Rigor and the alternator can do pretty well damage, stringing pummel is a very strong WS.

The other day in my parse, in the Big room in Morimar.

Buffs X2 march, x 2Minuet, Chaos/Hunters.

The Monk did 393k, The PUP did 342k but the automaton end doing 139k damage. The Monk was a Wicked monk, Thaumas, Usukane gear etc. The Pup was using Manibozho gear etc, nothing special. The damage the automaton end doing for my tastes is INSANE High

Talking about WAR VS others? WAR?? Seriously?. War in the present is suffering a lot because "Upheaval".

SAM and DRKS are ahead of WAR for Now, and is only because garbage WS War have use.

Upheaval just cant compete in damage vs Resolution Or Shoha. The only scenario where upheaval win is in MS, but this NMS dont die in 30 secs, this DELVE NM can live 3 - 4 mins of intense zerg Fight.

i would put like this. Vs DELVE NMS. Raptor, Eft, Peiste, orobon, moth.

High Buff situations

SAM and DRK ahead of everything else.

MNK - Is good but it cant beat a Good DRK resolution and the WS frecuently will just end beating a MNK.

WAR but only retarted good Warriors.


Medium/Low Buff situations

SAM - Shoha attack boost is Sex.

DRK Dark cant /war, you cant eat RCB and resolution attack penalty will hurt a lot the damage vs NMS.

MNK - WAR even, but the warrior need extremely good gear.

Monk is nice but Not the bandwagon DD. ((101 + 3 / 9) + 8)+ 101 =120 +52=172 damage with rigor. With the stat boost it will get more stronger. The boss weapon is just insane. Mnk is Ok but DRK and SAM still ahead, lets wait until the stats boost update, for check again.

Warrior until they allow us unlock Ukkos fury, will be a second Tier job under the shadow of DRK and SAM. If only Upheaval was a STR mod WS everything could change. Or how minimiun if they allow us Add a VIT - Attack path to DELVE gear =/