Aegis > RUN

[Cljader1]

Lets face it RUN cannot tank, and more importantly run is NOT being allowed to tank. Aegis Pld is better than run is almost every capacity. Aegis for Pld have a -45% mdt reduction against ALL elements not to mention a high block rate for physical attacks. Run tanks cannot hold NM mobs because enhancing magic is weak and take too long to cast. Moreover the rehashing of low tier spells from other jobs, lack of original magic lead run into what other see as a joke job.

I know the job is not finished but the Aegis shield alone beat the entire run job class as it refers to tanking, its disappointing to see this but it is the truth. Ninja is far better than run, pup with alternator out tanks run. The 2hr is not really useful, nullifying magic really have no value, because right after that one physical attack and I'm dead. The 2hr ability must be changed to absorb magical attacks for 30 seconds, that would be a good 2hr especially do to the rarity of mobs killing you with magic. Run was terribly rushed and honestly I do not know what they can do to fix it, anything short of giving run job traits or piece of equipment like aegis the job will never be able to tank or magic tank.

[Volarione]

Give us fast cast to reapply shields would help.

[Babekeke]

Lets face it RUN cannot tank, and more importantly run is NOT being allowed to tank. Aegis Pld is better than run is almost every capacity. Aegis for Pld have a -45% mdt reduction against ALL elements not to mention a high block rate for physical attacks. Run tanks cannot hold NM mobs because enhancing magic is weak and take too long to cast. Moreover the rehashing of low tier spells from other jobs, lack of original magic lead run into what other see as a joke job.

I know the job is not finished but the Aegis shield alone beat the entire run job class as it refers to tanking, its disappointing to see this but it is the truth. Ninja is far better than run, pup with alternator out tanks run. The 2hr is not really useful, nullifying magic really have no value, because right after that one physical attack and I'm dead. The 2hr ability must be changed to absorb magical attacks for 30 seconds, that would be a good 2hr especially do to the rarity of mobs killing you with magic. Run was terribly rushed and honestly I do not know what they can do to fix it, anything short of giving run job traits or piece of equipment like aegis the job will never be able to tank or magic tank.

Speak for yourself, I'm quite happy with RUN's ability to tank.

[Cljader1]

Speak for yourself, I'm quite happy with RUN's ability to tank.

If your happy with run tanking, you must not be familiar with aegis pld tanking.

[Babekeke]

Right now, RUN can happily tank level 99 content (Arch-ultima/omega etc). That's not bad considering we have no merits/AF/relic/empy gear, nor do we have a 'special weapon/grip/ammo' since we can't use shields.

Once we get merits/af/empy/relic gear, RUN should be able to tank adoulin content (if SE don't change their minds and give merits etc for DDing instead of tanking). But we shall see.

Tanking on RUN requires more thought than tanking on PLD, sure, but that doesn't mean that the job is bad.

[nyheen]

oh boy. here we go with the "aegis" pld vs rune thing again. are you seriously going to compare a 100 mil relic shield etc vs a job without there ultimate weapon yet? dont remember pld tanking magic well back then till that ultimate shield came out. anyways so far the job works very well in the magic def. useful protecting your whole pt members with magic or magic TP. while testing it out on Orthrus etc was eating Acheron Flame for like 90+ dmg or so spamming Valiance/magic shield for members, dmg 200-300. without would be 1400+ or so.

this job came out not to long ago and iam starting to see how strong/useful it can be. in time once it gets all the buffs then let compare the jobs on a fair level.

[Cljader1]

Once we get merits/af/empy/relic gear, RUN should be able to tank adoulin content (if SE don't change their minds and give merits etc for DDing instead of tanking). But we shall see.

Unless they solve the issue of dealing with multi element casting mobs and our paper bag defense, aegis pld will always be a better option.


oh boy. here we go with the "aegis" pld vs rune thing again. are you seriously going to compare a 100 mil relic shield etc vs a job without there ultimate weapon yet? dont remember pld tanking magic well back then till that ultimate shield came out. anyways so far the job works very well in the magic def. useful protecting your whole pt members with magic or magic TP. while testing it out on Orthrus etc was eating Acheron Flame for like 90+ dmg or so spamming Valiance/magic shield for members, dmg 200-300. without would be 1400+ or so.

this job came out not to long ago and iam starting to see how strong/useful it can be. in time once it gets all the buffs then let compare the jobs on a fair level.

Run has it ultimate weapon/gear its called "Delve" and it take more that a 100 mil gil to max out those pieces. Comparing Aegis to the run job its completely fair, Our wards and runes are a complete joke compared to the aegis shield. Furthermore SE have plans to even enhance the aegis shield, as with all relics. One for all and valiance is the only abilities we offer that helps protect the whole pt. Run is a support dd at best and SE needs to do something. Redo SP ability and for the love of god, fix liement ward it is aweful.

[Alpheus]

Furthermore SE have plans to even enhance the aegis shield, as with all relics.
I'm pretty sure they said Instruments and Shields would be exempt from the forthcoming revamp of super weapons. I do agree with you though RUN's paper bag physical defense is appalling.

[Babekeke]

Ummm... RUN's 'paper bag physical defense'?

My RUN has -47% PDT (-34% if I'm using Bereaver). Use the right food and you can have well over 700 def BEFORE cocoon or defender.

The only reason people see RUN as having 'paper bag physical defense' is because they're gearing to DD.

[Karah]

Well, may as well throw in some two-cents here.

RUN is terrible, it's an absolute joke, but to be fair pup/dnc/blu all started out as complete garbage also.

It's kind of like giving a 2005 ninja ragnarok, yeah all the "special" people would do it, but we all know that putting a Heavy weapon on a Light job is just /fail. Facepalm city.

Now, RUN has some good aspects, it's on a nice track to be useful in 2016, we're beta testing it, a concept that has become ever more apparent as of late. But for right now, its pathetic, and if you bring it/use it at anything that it should've been useful for it pales in comparison.

Let's take a single casting element mob, maybe Glavoid, everyone is afraid of Glavoid and it's instant death Disgorges, RUN could potentially be the best job possible for killing Glavoid. It only uses earth, you have EPIC LEVEL earth resistance and magic mitigation.

Now, by contrast, let's take Botolus Rex. You have -ZERO- chance of stopping magic damage from an enemy that isn't limited to one element. (as someone did mention) (and yes, you have fool's drinks, let's pretend these don't exist just for a moment, please, ok?) Rex is going to DEVASTATE you, as will "most" enemies in the game. Only a select few are limited to using one element. Making RUN "essentially" immune to ONE element and leaving it exposed to the other SEVEN, is a rather sizable logic flaw.

Now, let's say for example that RUN only had 2 Runes, light and dark, in which each covered the FOUR elements associated with it, you could legitimately have a viable reason to use RUN.

It's still not the best answer, but 4/8 is much more reasonable than 1/8... when Aegis covers 9/8 (non-elemental magic damage ((meteor))).

[Alpheus]

Ummm... RUN's 'paper bag physical defense'?
My RUN has -47% PDT (-34% if I'm using Bereaver). Use the right food and you can have well over 700 def BEFORE cocoon or defender.
The only reason people see RUN as having 'paper bag physical defense' is because they're gearing to DD.

I'm not saying its unworkable but honestly it's biggest damage mitigating skills for the physical side of things is it's evasion and parrying if these actually were worth a damn I wouldn't mind its physical defense. Essentially the two skills i mentioned are meant to act as a equivalent to a PLD's shield ( a form of damage mitigation), except anything worth fighting will laugh at the evasion and parrying because they are so useless when fighting anything that is of much higher level than you.

So granted I understand as far as melee jobs are concerned its DEF isnt too bad but when it's supposed to be supplemented by things that don't work it just exacerbates the issue to the point that on the whole it leaves a lot to be desired.

[xiozen]

Easy fix... implement Great Swords w/ -MDT% traits that can only be equipped by RUN...w/ their parry skill maxed, this should assist in ways that help offset physical damage while at the same time bolstering the RUN's already heavy magic evasion/reduction abilities.

[Kojo]

Easy fix... implement Great Swords w/ -MDT% traits that can only be equipped by RUN...w/ their parry skill maxed, this should assist in ways that help offset physical damage while at the same time bolstering the RUN's already heavy magic evasion/reduction abilities.

MDT isn't the only problem, PDT is, too. No job should be required to /BLU to fulfill it's role.

[Hayward]

*Yawn* Doesn't rambling on and on about what job is useless get old with you professional endgamers?

I've actually played the job, unlike you worthless theorycrafters from the forum that shall go unnamed, and see RUN as good in what it was DESIGNED to do: take magic damage that other jobs couldn't take and minimize any magical damage they might otherwise take.

Taking Physical Damage is mainly a Paladin thing. Magical Damage is Rune Fencer's calling card. Could RUN use some Job Traits and/or gear (beyond Dux Scale mail, of course) to make it more solid? I'd certainly take it, but don't come on these forums with dishonest comparisons in some attempt to foment more job discrimination than is already in this game.

[Kojo]

*Yawn* Doesn't rambling on and on about what job is useless get old with you professional endgamers?

I've actually played the job, unlike you worthless theorycrafters from the forum that shall go unnamed, and see RUN as good in what it was DESIGNED to do: take magic damage that other jobs couldn't take and minimize any magical damage they might otherwise take.

Taking Physical Damage is mainly a Paladin thing. Magical Damage is Rune Fencer's calling card. Could RUN use some Job Traits and/or gear (beyond Dux Scale mail, of course) to make it more solid? I'd certainly take it, but don't come on these forums with dishonest comparisons in some attempt to foment more job discrimination than is already in this game.

http://i.imgur.com/JNOMb.gif

[Zagen]

Magical Damage is Rune Fencer's calling card.

So where are all the single element magical damage dealing no/minimal melee damage dealing mobs that would allow it to shine above even Aegis as the superior magical tank?

You could argue well the AF/Relic/Emp/Mythic/Merits are all missing but all of that will have to address the fact that when something casts multiple elemental damage types and deals high physical damage RUN's capabilities go to the OP's point of Aegis > RUN.

[Zirael]

Right now, RUN can happily tank level 99 content (Arch-ultima/omega etc). That's not bad considering we have no merits/AF/relic/empy gear, nor do we have a 'special weapon/grip/ammo' since we can't use shields.

Once we get merits/af/empy/relic gear, RUN should be able to tank adoulin content (if SE don't change their minds and give merits etc for DDing instead of tanking). But we shall see.

Tanking on RUN requires more thought than tanking on PLD, sure, but that doesn't mean that the job is bad.
Not to pop your bubble Babekeke, but any job able to equip PDT/MDT can tank Arch-Omega/Ultima with a friendly WHM/SCH in the backline. OP is talking about content which currently is handled solely by Aegis/Ochain PLD. Delve NMs, Naakuals, Naakual megabosses etc. If RUN can't handle those equally well as PLD, then it can't be called a real tank. Looking at the damage output, it can't be called damage dealer either. A "wasted party slot" would fit the best. A very well geared PLD (supported by one-two healers) can hold all five NMs during Morimar plasm farm, for example. One of those NMs spams magic a lot. Other one has nasty breath attack. Can RUN do the same type of tanking? Can RUN tank Tojil (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Tojil)? That's what bothers the OP.

[Yinnyth]

Lets face it RUN cannot tank, and more importantly run is NOT being allowed to tank. Aegis Pld is better than run is almost every capacity. Aegis for Pld have a -45% mdt reduction against ALL elements not to mention a high block rate for physical attacks.
That's level 95 aegis. Level 99 aegis gives -50% mdt, and it surpasses the normal 50% mdt cap to go as high as 87.5% reduction. This would only require the pld to wear 37.5% mdt in addition to aegis. Shell V gives 24% of this before any gear/merits which alter it, so roughly 13.5% MDT allows PLD to take 1/8 magic damage to all elements of damage all the time.

Now let's say instead that you're a rune fencer and you manage to get 1,000 fire resist. The most you can resist a fire attack down to is 1/8 normal damage, but you're completely vulnerable to the other elements, not to mention that no matter how much magic evasion you're rocking, the mob attacking you always has a small chance to hit you unresisted.

So yes, I mostly agree with the point you raise. True, Aegis is a relic and takes a serious investment to create, but MDT, MDB and m.eva are all supposed to be rune fencer's thing, so a fully decked-out rune fencer should trump a fully decked-out paladin. There are still many adjustments which need to be made, and it will take a long time to iron out the details. Next update will see AF gear and merits. Then who knows how long until relic/empy armor. Then who knows how long until some form of "ultimate" gear is released.

[Vivivivi]

If you're talking about Aegis PLD's ability to withstand more damage, then you're correct. But I think what RUN brings to the table is the unique ability to both withstand a certain amount of magical damage, as well as dish out it's fair share. RUN (imo) has many more tricks to generate enmity than PLD. I think RUN isn't meant to be the sort of 18-person tank that PLD can be, but I think in 6-person content, RUN is a suitable tank that can also deal a fair share of damage.

[Volarione]

What are you smoking vivi?

[Yinnyth]

If you're talking about Aegis PLD's ability to withstand more damage, then you're correct. But I think what RUN brings to the table is the unique ability to both withstand a certain amount of magical damage, as well as dish out it's fair share. RUN (imo) has many more tricks to generate enmity than PLD. I think RUN isn't meant to be the sort of 18-person tank that PLD can be, but I think in 6-person content, RUN is a suitable tank that can also deal a fair share of damage.

Perhaps some day, that will be the case, but RUN's damage is sadly as lack-luster as their ability to tank. True, it does slightly better damage than PLD, but RUN's biggest calling right now is abyssea where a large number of the NMs use only 1 element of damage. RUN still lacks barlight and bardark for a number of these enemies, and even with over 300 resist to an element, these enemies still seem to have no difficulty landing status effects on a RUN. And RUN currently has nothing to gain from abyssea.

So yeah, RUN has a long ways to go.

[SpankWustler]

At the moment, Rune Fencer is basically another job in FFXI's utility melee pile. Rune Fencer has a bunch of a magic damage mitigation abilities, but the job still can't tank anything that any other competent melee with competent support couldn't tank.

Merits and JSE will definitely help a trait and ability dependent job like Rune Fencer climb over a few Puppetmasters or Dancers in that pile, but I'll be shocked if those are all the job needs to climb out entirely.

Of course, nearly the same thing could be said about a Paladin without an Aegis or Ochain. If Paladin's progression is the standard for a job meant to tank from day one, there's a very real possibility that the lion's share of Rune Fencer's defensive ability will come from the job's Mythic weapon.


Doesn't rambling on and on about what job is useless get old...

Yes. That's one of the many reasons it be nice if nearly useless jobs were made a bit more useful.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

If single-element bar- spells were sufficient, PLD/WHM and PLD/RDM would have discovered that a long time ago.

EDIT: Hell, PLD/BRD

[Yinnyth]

Of course, nearly the same thing could be said about a Paladin without an Aegis or Ochain. If Paladin's progression is the standard for a job meant to tank from day one, there's a very real possibility that the lion's share of Rune Fencer's defensive ability will come from the job's Mythic weapon.

I do hope you're wrong about that. Not only are the mythics substantially more difficult to obtain than relics or empyreans, but a RUN's damage potential and ability to hold hate are tied directly to the base damage of their weapon. Since the game is going into vertical progression and it has been mentioned that this coming RME update will be the last, it won't be long before RUN's mythic would hurt them more than help them.

[Glamdring]

Ummm... RUN's 'paper bag physical defense'?

My RUN has -47% PDT (-34% if I'm using Bereaver). Use the right food and you can have well over 700 def BEFORE cocoon or defender.

The only reason people see RUN as having 'paper bag physical defense' is because they're gearing to DD.

gearring to DD has a purpose. with very little to work with in the enmity department in todays Zerg-heavy environment the only thing we can do for hate is try to keep up on damage. It's going to be interesting to see where SE goes with our end-game JSE, if they add def likely our damage suffers and vice-versa. considering we are on the middle tier for armor-and to an extent weapon-I'm expecting a mix of the 2, leaving us lagging in both aspects, and probably hurting our enmity all around, an issue for an intended tank. Don't get me wrong, play the job well and we aren't as pathetic as some of the complaints would lead someone who has never played Rune to believe, but pld and nin are both ahead of us in tanking simply due to having hate tools to work with; yes, I know DD can take that hate and never let it go, it doesn't change that they are still ahead of us on grabbing it in the first place.

I just really wish SE would announce (as they are with geo) some of what they are planning so we could comment on it inteligently instead of having to guess or put out wish lists. I also wish they had done this sooner, first impressions are often the last impressions for many players, and since we were rolled out without merits, JSE and end-game weapons available that first impression is that we are weak in comparrison to the other jobs out there. Seriously, beast is just overcoming the XP thing that hasn't been a factor for like 8 years now, pup is just now starting to be written without the mandatory "lol" in front of it, and yes, I've heard "lol-run" already-that is NOT what I want out of one of my favorite jobs to play.

[Calamity]

I do hope you're wrong about that. Not only are the mythics substantially more difficult to obtain than relics or empyreans, but a RUN's damage potential and ability to hold hate are tied directly to the base damage of their weapon. Since the game is going into vertical progression and it has been mentioned that this coming RME update will be the last, it won't be long before RUN's mythic would hurt them more than help them.

Well, it may not be as hard as a current mythic. Just because they dubbed it a "mythic" doesn't mean it will be made in exactly the same fashion as previous mythics. In fact, I would bet it has an entirely new quest based in adoulin, very likely requiring large ammounts of bayld and plasm and nakuul kills and so forth. I think the term "mythic" was just used to imply that it would be a job specific weapon custom tailored for run (or geo).

I really don't believe that they'll manage to fix run up to be a tank, even when all's said and done. I feel like in the end, it will likely be adjusted to be what it is now, a support DD. Just a better and effective support DD. It is really hard to tell where run will be when all is said and done. They are still such a new and very unfinished job. I just know I'll be watching closely. One day it might be one of those jobs you find at least one of in each alliance.

[Yinnyth]

......then... it's not really mythic, is it? If it doesn't use the same quest line as other mythic weapons, it's not a mythic. It will be given a new name just like how mythics aren't called relics and empyreans aren't called mythics.

[Duelle]

*Yawn* Doesn't rambling on and on about what job is useless get old with you professional endgamers?

I've actually played the job, unlike you worthless theorycrafters from the forum that shall go unnamed, and see RUN as good in what it was DESIGNED to do: take magic damage that other jobs couldn't take and minimize any magical damage they might otherwise take.Which is therefore one of the weakest niche designs you could use on a job that is essentially supposed to tank.

It'd be one thing if RUN, PLD and NIN had perks on top of being viable tanks for content, with PLD being sword and board, NIN being shadows and dodge and RUN being able to absorb/mitigate magic better than either. What appears to be the problem is that the job is seemingly designed to mitigate magic and only magic. And even then, as pointed out earlier, it is rather clunky.

[Calamity]

......then... it's not really mythic, is it? If it doesn't use the same quest line as other mythic weapons, it's not a mythic. It will be given a new name just like how mythics aren't called relics and empyreans aren't called mythics.

I don't see any particularly good reason why that's true. I believe "mythic" describes the nature of the weapon, rather than the way of acquisition. Keep in mind, this is the first time in ffxi history that a brand new r/m/e weapon has been added to the previously existing ones, and there's no written rule that states all future weapons must come from the same quest. Just food for thought.

[Tesahade]

I don't see any particularly good reason why that's true. I believe "mythic" describes the nature of the weapon, rather than the way of acquisition. Keep in mind, this is the first time in ffxi history that a brand new r/m/e weapon has been added to the previously existing ones, and there's no written rule that states all future weapons must come from the same quest. Just food for thought.

oh what is this here...http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/3520/detail.html

ps. i believe they will add mythics for run and geo in the past they have said the relics were made without pup/blu/cor/dnc/sch in mind so they dont get them. this cant be true of a weapon that is specific to your job~ unlike relics and empys there is more then 1 weapon of each type there are 3 dags, 3 swords, 3 staff, 2 h2h, 2 Marksmanship, 1 axe, 1 ga, 1 gk, 1 polearm, 1 scythe, 1 club, 1 katana. :) could always add a gs and another club

[Calamity]

I don't see any particularly good reason why that's true. I believe "mythic" describes the nature of the weapon, rather than the way of acquisition. Keep in mind, this is the first time in ffxi history that a brand new r/m/e weapon has been added to the previously existing ones, and there's no written rule that states all future weapons must come from the same quest. Just food for thought.

As I said.

[Yinnyth]

Ok, I'm thoroughly confused, Calamity. I can understand a belief that new ultimate weapons will be added to the game, but such ultimate weapons would be called something besides "mythic". For example, delve weapons are not called mythic weapons. I can understand RUN being given a mythic weapon with completion requirements identical to other mythic weapons. What I cannot understand is RUN being given a "mythic" weapon which not only has different completion requirements, but better stats than other jobs mythic weapons.

There is 1 mythic weapon per job, minus the 2 new jobs currently. Are you saying they'll release a whole new set of weapons for every job and they will call these weapons "mythic" weapons? The word "mythic" has a set meaning in FFXI. If someone says they have bard mythic, they mean they have carnwenhan. Not gjallarhorn, not daurdabla, not twashtar, not mandau, not leisilonu. Is your definition of "mythic weapon" different from ours? Is that the source of our confusion?

[Calamity]

I never said or implied anything about it being better than other mythic weapons. And I don't understand the confusion. As I said, I believe that the word "mythic" describes the weapon itself. Meaning it's not gonna be a generic GS. It's going to be a specific weapon that is custom tailored only for run. It's simple.

I swear, I should know better than to hypothesize and think outside the box on this forum. people don't want original thought here. Everyone is so stuck in this mentality of "Well it was this way before, so it will be this way in the future no matter what!" Forget it, I'm done trying to defend the fact that I have an imagination.

[Yinnyth]

Look, Calamity, I meant you no offense. I'm sorry if I came across as that. But if you say "mythic weapon" in FFXI, you mean one of these 20 weapons:

Conqueror, Glanzfaust, Yagrush, Laevateinn, Murgleis, Vajra, Burtgang, Liberator, Aymur, Carnwenhan, Gastraphetes, Kogarasumaru, Nagi, Ryunohige, Nirvana, Tizona, Death Penalty, Kenkonken, Terpsichore, Tupsimati

These weapons all require you to complete the same quests in order to obtain them. If a weapon does not require you to complete the same duties, tasks, and deeds as these 20 weapons, they are no more a "mythic weapon" than joyeuse.

[Calamity]

Look, you're missing what I'm trying to get at. Say the reward from the quest got you a GS that at 99, looked something like:

Tournesol
(Great Sword) All Races
DMG: 147 Delay: 444 Accuracy +40
Additional effect: Stun
"Runic"
Lv. 99 RUN

And under the WS description it says something like:

"Lowers target's magic defense. Runeblade/Tournesol: Absorbs magic damage taken"

Now, one look at this tells us "Hey, that looks exactly like a relic." But it didn't come from the same quest so it's 100% impossible.


Or, a GS that looks like:

Tournesol
(Great Sword) All Races
DMG: 145 Delay: 430 STR+13 MND+13
"Runic"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
Lv. 99 RUN

Sure looks like an emp right? But nope. It isn't a ToM quested weapon, so it just plain can't be.

But we're talking about mythics right? So if they got a weapon like:

Tournesol
(Great Sword) All Races
DMG: 146 Delay: 450
Magical damage taken -20%
Enhances "Rune Enhancement" Ability V
"Runic"
Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk.
Occ. attacks twice or thrice
Lv. 99 RUN

If you saw a weapon that looked like that come out of a different, but equally hard quest to the other mythics, you would NOT call that a mythic?

Anyway, that's the point I was going for when I said I believe "Mythic" describes the weapon, and NOT the quest. That is all -.-

[Kristal]

Look, Calamity, I meant you no offense. I'm sorry if I came across as that. But if you say "mythic weapon" in FFXI, you mean one of these 20 weapons:

Conqueror, Glanzfaust, Yagrush, Laevateinn, Murgleis, Vajra, Burtgang, Liberator, Aymur, Carnwenhan, Gastraphetes, Kogarasumaru, Nagi, Ryunohige, Nirvana, Tizona, Death Penalty, Kenkonken, Terpsichore, Tupsimati

These weapons all require you to complete the same quests in order to obtain them. If a weapon does not require you to complete the same duties, tasks, and deeds as these 20 weapons, they are no more a "mythic weapon" than joyeuse.

BLU, PUP, COR, DNC and SCH have their own ways of obtaining artifact armor, distinct from the previous 15 jobs, yet we still call these sets artifact armor.




Anyway, that's the point I was going for when I said I believe "Mythic" describes the weapon, and NOT the quest. That is all -.-

Adoulin shared enough similarities with Aht Urhgan that even the quests could be made to mirror the original mythic ones.
7 Naakuals to obtain titles from, 10.000.000 bayld and 1.000.000 plasm to buy items, obtain a full set of yggzi beads from all 7 delve regions. With requirements like that, they can't be called anything BUT mythics.
Unless SE adds weapons like these for all 22 jobs, rather then just RUN and GEO, but that's what CL20 stuff is for.

[Yinnyth]

BLU, PUP, COR, DNC and SCH have their own ways of obtaining artifact armor, distinct from the previous 15 jobs, yet we still call these sets artifact armor.


The quests for RNG AF are unique from the quests for BRD AF, yet both are still considered AF. You are correct to the extent that there are no coffers in ToAU or WotG zones, so they had to get a little creative with the acquisition methods, but every job's AF requires you to use zones from the expansion pack it was released in and gives you unique tasks which share very few parallels.

SCH and DNC were released after ToAU, yet their mythics involve the same method of obtainment as every other job. Why should one believe that RUN and GEO will get their own unique 6-month-long questline to obtain a weapon which will be replaced by whatever comes after delve?

Is it possible? Yes, I will not deny it's possible that RUN and GEO will get unique acquisition methods for their mythics, completely unlike the other 20 jobs. Is it likely? No, SE already has their plate full without designing an epic questline specifically tailored to just those 2 jobs. They'd be better off just plugging those 2 jobs into the same old system they've been using the whole time. Would it be good for the game if it happened? Arguable. Though I guarantee players would complain one way or the other.

Is this conversation silly? Yes. As such, I yield to Calamty's assessment of the situation that it is less important where the weapon comes from as long as it is relatively equal to the utility of other mythic weapons. Though whenever someone says "mythic weapon", I will still automatically think "30,000 alexandrite".

[saevel]

It's kind of like giving a 2005 ninja ragnarok, yeah all the "special" people would do it, but we all know that putting a Heavy weapon on a Light job is just /fail. Facepalm city.

This is pretty much the issue. RUN's issue is that it completely lacks in decent sword options as well as any form of native DW (or attack boost).

Here's the issue with GS guys, it absolutely requires large amounts of attack to perform well, this is why DRK and WAR (prior to delve) could put out so much damage with it. As RUN is totally lacking of this trying to use a GS is a bad idea. There ~is~ a niche that needs to be filled now that Twilight has lost it's luster, the niche of a DD that deals non-physical melee damage. The closest we have now is enspell'd / FS MNK's or Req / Sang spamming BLUs.

Now give RUN two very powerful swords and hopefully some form of MAB (tier 1 is fine) and they could spam Req / Sang while also dealing magic elemental damage and thus become a much desired utility job.

RUN is not a tank, will never be a tank, and was never a tank. Those who think it is or will be don't have the slightest clue what a tank is or what's involved with being one.

[Tesahade]

I believe that the word "mythic" describes the weapon itself.

Stop sayin this i posted a link showin that SE calls them Mythics because they are the things of myth and legend as they are part of Balranh's collection. Heres the link again its in the frist 5 lines http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/3520/detail.html

Mythic does not describe the weapon itself but specificly its origin

[Cljader1]

RUN is not a tank, will never be a tank, and was never a tank. Those who think it is or will be don't have the slightest clue what a tank is or what's involved with being one.

You should tell SE this before they introduced Rune Fencer as a new tanking class that potent against magic.

[nyheen]

RUN is not a tank, will never be a tank, and was never a tank. Those who think it is or will be don't have the slightest clue what a tank is or what's involved with being one. who told you that?

[Kojo]

RUN is not a tank, will never be a tank, and was never a tank. Those who think it is or will be don't have the slightest clue what a tank is or what's involved with being one.
While I agree that RUN cannot tank in it's current condition, it WAS meant to be a tank, it was introduced as such by SE.

EDIT:
1. Not sure if trolling.
2. Please, for the love of Altana and her five albino children, DO NOT make RUN another DWer or Sword job.
3. RUN is a very unaesthetic job. Available armor looks bad.

[Vivivivi]

What are you smoking vivi?

Coffeecake muffin crumbs (+1) of course.

[saevel]

While I agree that RUN cannot tank in it's current condition, it WAS meant to be a tank, it was introduced as such by SE.

EDIT:
1. Not sure if trolling.
2. Please, for the love of Altana and her five albino children, DO NOT make RUN another DWer or Sword job.
3. RUN is a very unaesthetic job. Available armor looks bad.

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

[Rezeak]

I love how your comparing it to PLD, I mean it's so far off being a main tank atm that a DRK with an Apoc is a better tank atm.

Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.

[saevel]

Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.

You can give then Enmity +100 and they still wouldn't be a "tank". The job is fundamentally borked and would need a major PUP & SCH level redesign to be that. Not saying that SE can't go back to the drawing board, they did twice already, but if they did whatever came out would only vaguely resemble what we have now. That's why I mentioned turning them into a non-elemental type melee. There are fights they would end up "tanking" so to speak if only because they would be dealing so much more damage then anyone else the monster would have no choice but to pay attention to them. Previously entire strats were build around DRK's using twilight scyth to bypass -PDT and other damage restrictions, that's a big enough niche for a job like RUN to fit right into. Hell give them a JA based move similar to formless strikes but without the damage penalty. Have them deal non-physical damage and every-time they take magic damage have it act like misery on WHM, fill up a buffer that can then be deplete in a big attack.

[Babekeke]

People keep on saying how RUN can only mitigate damage from 1 element at a time...

... which is wrong of course.

#1 barspell: Cast by yourself if solo, or by a whm if in a party. (yes, every party member can get this too).

#2 Build up 3 runes of a different element and use Valiance or Vallation. (Valliance also helps out the rest of the party, but you need the RUN there to use it).

#3 Build up 3 more runes of a third element.

#4 If a spell comes in of one of the other elements, hit one for all.

#5 If mob uses Chainspell, hit Elemental Sforzo (RUN is the best job for tanking chainspell for this reason alone... if it can get/hold hate, which shouldn't be too hard when you pop Ele Sforzo anyway).

Not just 1 element.

Edit: Oh not to mention that we only need 14% -MDT in gear to cap MDT when using Shell V on ourselves with Embolden. (even less if it stacks with effects of Sheltered ring)

[Zagen]

People keep on saying how RUN can only mitigate damage from 1 element at a time...

... which is wrong of course.

#1 barspell: Cast by yourself if solo, or by a whm if in a party. (yes, every party member can get this too).

#2 Build up 3 runes of a different element and use Valiance or Vallation. (Valliance also helps out the rest of the party, but you need the RUN there to use it).

#3 Build up 3 more runes of a third element.

#4 If a spell comes in of one of the other elements, hit one for all.

#5 If mob uses Chainspell, hit Elemental Sforzo (RUN is the best job for tanking chainspell for this reason alone... if it can get/hold hate, which shouldn't be too hard when you pop Ele Sforzo anyway).

Not just 1 element.

Edit: Oh not to mention that we only need 14% -MDT in gear to cap MDT when using Shell V on ourselves with Embolden. (even less if it stacks with effects of Sheltered ring)

Okay effectively mitigate damage from 1 element at a time. Hell your own example shows how RUN could poorly reduce the damage of up to 4 types of magic for 3/5 minutes. Someone mentioned Abyssea earlier and honestly that's the only place where RUN can tank based on what it currently has as native defensive capabilities. Yay a tank for 3 year old content...

Nothing a RUN currently has to offer is of any value as a tank, dd, or support when compared to other jobs filling those roles.

It's a fun job but that sure as hell doesn't make it magically work at what we were told it was going to do. The job is lacking sorely and if it was supposed to be a magical tank it sure as hell should be more useful than an Aegis PLD (I'm not even talking full time -87.5% MDT for a given element).

[Calamity]

SCH and DNC were released after ToAU, yet their mythics involve the same method of obtainment as every other job. Why should one believe that RUN and GEO will get their own unique 6-month-long questline to obtain a weapon which will be replaced by whatever comes after delve?

While you are correct that dnc and sch were added after the release of ToAU, they were released and established well prior to the release of Mythic weapons. As I said, this is the first ever example of a new r/m/e weapon being added to those that existed from the very beginning. Anything is possible.


Stop sayin this i posted a link showin that SE calls them Mythics because they are the things of myth and legend as they are part of Balranh's collection. Heres the link again its in the frist 5 lines http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/3520/detail.html

Mythic does not describe the weapon itself but specificly its origin

Old words from an old era and an old producer. If Tanaka was still in charge, this might be a valid argument. However, if there's anything the past couple months should have taught you, it's that the policies laid down by Tanaka, have little to no influence whatsoever on what Matsui does with the game.

And in the end, they could come out with a completely new kind of weapon, with a completely new kind of quest and give it only to RUN and GEO and call it a mythic, and you know what? At that point it doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else wants to call it. If SE says it's a mythic, then that will be exactly what is it.

[Yinnyth]

People keep on saying how RUN can only mitigate damage from 1 element at a time...

... which is wrong of course.

#1 barspell: Cast by yourself if solo, or by a whm if in a party. (yes, every party member can get this too).

#2 Build up 3 runes of a different element and use Valiance or Vallation. (Valliance also helps out the rest of the party, but you need the RUN there to use it).

#3 Build up 3 more runes of a third element.

#4 If a spell comes in of one of the other elements, hit one for all.

#5 If mob uses Chainspell, hit Elemental Sforzo (RUN is the best job for tanking chainspell for this reason alone... if it can get/hold hate, which shouldn't be too hard when you pop Ele Sforzo anyway).

Not just 1 element.

Edit: Oh not to mention that we only need 14% -MDT in gear to cap MDT when using Shell V on ourselves with Embolden. (even less if it stacks with effects of Sheltered ring)

They say that because magic evasion is fairly lacking. The boost to the strength of runes was a big help, but the truth is that enemies have enough magic accuracy to punch a hole through RUN's magic evasion even if they have the same barspell and runes all stacked together. Yes, a runefencer could go for slight resistance to several elements instead of large resistance to one. Heck, you could even put up 3 different runes and keep vallation/valiance up on yourself to take 15% less damage (multiplied, not added to MDT). Then every 3 minutes, you could also absorb the damage from a spell by using liement.

Aegis PLD takes 1/8 normal magic damage from any element all the time without fussing with runes or responding to changing battle conditions. Yes, a RUN could put up 3 runes, vallation, then put up 3 different runes, but that would take them a minute to do while you're getting hammered by amnesia, paralyze, sleep, and elemental damage that you don't have your runes up for yet. Plus, if you're not stacking your barspell and runes together, you're only going to get about 150 m.eva for each element. Your resist rate will be pretty low. Aegis works 100% of the time.

[Duelle]

I love how your comparing it to PLD, I mean it's so far off being a main tank atm that a DRK with an Apoc is a better tank atm.

Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.Having to wait until AF(1,2,3) and merits to even attempt to make the job tank-worthy is a losing proposition.


You can give then Enmity +100 and they still wouldn't be a "tank". The job is fundamentally borked and would need a major PUP & SCH level redesign to be that. Not saying that SE can't go back to the drawing board, they did twice already, but if they did whatever came out would only vaguely resemble what we have now. That's why I mentioned turning them into a non-elemental type melee. There are fights they would end up "tanking" so to speak if only because they would be dealing so much more damage then anyone else the monster would have no choice but to pay attention to them. Previously entire strats were build around DRK's using twilight scyth to bypass -PDT and other damage restrictions, that's a big enough niche for a job like RUN to fit right into.I'd rather SE fix RUN over clinging to SE's poorly-worded description. There's no MMO player out there that would look at RUN's description and not think the job is intended to be a tank; a tank with a "takes less damage from magic" gimmick (trust me, it certainly isn't a new concept).

As an aside, the fact they're focusing so much on Geomancer is very much cause for concern, IMO.

[Babekeke]

Okay effectively mitigate damage from 1 element at a time. Hell your own example shows how RUN could poorly reduce the damage of up to 4 types of magic for 3/5 minutes. Someone mentioned Abyssea earlier and honestly that's the only place where RUN can tank based on what it currently has as native defensive capabilities. Yay a tank for 3 year old content...

Nothing a RUN currently has to offer is of any value as a tank, dd, or support when compared to other jobs filling those roles.

It's a fun job but that sure as hell doesn't make it magically work at what we were told it was going to do. The job is lacking sorely and if it was supposed to be a magical tank it sure as hell should be more useful than an Aegis PLD (I'm not even talking full time -87.5% MDT for a given element).

It works fine to tank any level 99 content, not just abyssea. It also deals a lot more damage while doing so than an Aegis PLD. Also for that great -MDT, a PLD needs 23% -MDT from gear other than the shield. A RUN only needs -14%. So you can cap it with 2 rings.

If once we get merits, AF, relic and empy gear we're still completely useless to tank in SoA, then SE has made terrible errors, but until then I'll hold out hope.

Also, an Aegis (at today's prices) costs at least 130mil to get to 99. I'm pretty sure that after spending 130 mil on RUN, it would be much better.

[Zagen]

It works fine to tank any level 99 content, not just abyssea. It also deals a lot more damage while doing so than an Aegis PLD. Also for that great -MDT, a PLD needs 23% -MDT from gear other than the shield. A RUN only needs -14%. So you can cap it with 2 rings.

If once we get merits, AF, relic and empy gear we're still completely useless to tank in SoA, then SE has made terrible errors, but until then I'll hold out hope.

Also, an Aegis (at today's prices) costs at least 130mil to get to 99. I'm pretty sure that after spending 130 mil on RUN, it would be much better.

Now you're just being obtuse...Working fine on easy level 99 content is pointless, why should I go on RUN when I could go on "insert DD job" instead and kill X faster. Take RUN to tank Tojil let me know how that works out... That's a NM that Aegis PLD tanks.

AF, Relic, and Emp gear would have to be some of the most broken equipment ever created to bring RUN up to what it was pitched as being.

You could have Rank 15 Delve (currently the only way to blow gil kinda on RUN) gear for RUN and you know what that does? It makes it a less weak DD, unimproved support, and still isn't tanking better than a PLD because even if you opted for evasion path giving you essentially +120 evasion you won't be evading enough to negate the physical damage to the degree ochain or aegis does.

[Kojo]

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

SE has a way of not explicitly saying things like "This is Rune Fencer, it's a tank class." but the way its was worded and compared to PLD and NIN on the official website pretty much screams "Tank job" to anyone who didn't spend their teen years huffing paint fumes. This is not D&D, nor is it Everquest, the mechanics are different in every game and your little "SE doesn't know what a tank is" when they are the company who designed the game, it comes off as arrogant.

RUN and GEO aren't yet complete...

[Babekeke]

Now you're just being obtuse...Working fine on easy level 99 content is pointless, why should I go on RUN when I could go on "insert DD job" instead and kill X faster. Take RUN to tank Tojil let me know how that works out... That's a NM that Aegis PLD tanks.

AF, Relic, and Emp gear would have to be some of the most broken equipment ever created to bring RUN up to what it was pitched as being.

You could have Rank 15 Delve (currently the only way to blow gil kinda on RUN) gear for RUN and you know what that does? It makes it a less weak DD, unimproved support, and still isn't tanking better than a PLD because even if you opted for evasion path giving you essentially +120 evasion you won't be evading enough to negate the physical damage to the degree ochain or aegis does.

This is still the most stupid argument ever.

To put this argument into comparison, it's the same as saying "Ukon War > non-r/m/e/d <insert DD job here>"

[Zagen]

This is still the most stupid argument ever.

To put this argument into comparison, it's the same as saying "Ukon War > non-r/m/e/d <insert DD job here>"

You mean the same argument made for years about PLD not being a needed job? They regained a place while niche it's still more than RUN has now.

What exactly does RUN have that's unique and can't be replaced by another job?

As Duelle mentioned GEO (at least publicly) is getting much more polishing than RUN. The sad part about that is even without AF/Relic/Emp/Mythic GEO has already gained a position in small man and high end game events and it's incomplete.

[Glamdring]

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

I gotta take issue with your definition of a Tank, aka meatshield. Your #1 is absolutely right, spot on, but incomplete, it's #2 where we have the issues big issues, #3 is a given.

#1 is incomplete in that the job of a tank is to hold hate off EVERYONE, not just the squishy backliners, part of that is because the players changed who those backliners are. But #2, the tank is not the killer in a party (unless your pt is just you and a healer), the DD/nukers/range attackers are. Of course, this is where I talk about the change in backliners; old partys the backliners usually included a nuker or a ranger or more than 1 but these days the backline is usually just healer(s) and/or support jobs because the players have shifted DD almost solely on to melee DD, and this has played holy hell with tanking due to the way enmity is calculated. If you are a blm or rng these days and you can get partys then it's probably good friends unless there is a proc issue, it's just that major of a change. That's why we ended up with EVA tanks a few years ago in the 1st place, pld-and to some extent nins-simply couldn't do enough to hold hate in the face of the Zerg jobs. #3 is just obvious, if you are one less guy the healer has to work on the pt will just move along that much smoother.

But I don't think the flaws are solely in the job-although rune being rolled out without viable end-game gear and merits means we are at least temporarily flawed-but in the hate system itself. Now, if my count is right we haven't had the 3 adjustments to the hate system that were mentioned, and if what has been rolled out so far is any indication even 3 aren't going to make tanking any more viable as a strat, they'll need more. I don't claim to know the answer, the only possibility I can see is to uncap hate on pld, nin and rune, but then the people who have grown to like eva tanks-playing or playing with-will probably scream bloody murder ("I built this bleeping eva set and now it's useless <insert ragequit rant here>"), and I'm not even sure that will work considering our current damage output.

As to your DW comments earlier, that is NOT the only viable possibility. Making GS our primary weapon is fine IF SE does something to beef our numbers with it OR introduces Rune only GS, or rune only grips that do major special things. That IS a viable option, and considering their current plans of fixing most inherrent flaws through gear rather than job fixes (see the "fix pets" threads as an example), it may well be the way they choose to go. Mind you, I don't agree with fixing job flaws that are native with gear that has to be acquired (a job SHOULD be able to be viable just on the build of the job), gear should just be a nice addition to a good base platform.

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash. Pld has cures, cover, FLASH, etc. while we have Regens and refresh, which simply don't generate much. Nin has Yonin and shadows (ok, that's an enmity decay thing, still a factor) and a higher DPS-good ones can still eva tank, we have Blink and spikes. SJ abilities don't count, especially since any job in the game can get those, so theoretically a brd/war could tank as well as rune/war, and that would hold hate what, 3 seconds at the outside? So SE has some work to do if thier job concept is to see fruition.

[Yinnyth]

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash.

I agree with most of the points you raised in your post besides the one I just quoted. Valiance, one for all, and foil all build decent amounts of hate. In addition to this, runes can be used for a steady stream of enmity if you're dealing with an enemy you just can't smack hard enough to keep his attention.

While it's true RUN could use something more than just this, I do hope they take a slightly less traditional route when attempting to fix it. Not that I would complain to have more straightforward hate tools, but it would be more interesting to have unique abilities such as an AoE buff RUN could give which siphons all hate generated by party members for 10 seconds directly to the RUN.

[Babekeke]

I agree with most of the points you raised in your post besides the one I just quoted. Valiance, one for all, and foil all build decent amounts of hate. In addition to this, runes can be used for a steady stream of enmity if you're dealing with an enemy you just can't smack hard enough to keep his attention.

Not to mention how useful Lunge can be vs an invincible mob, or 1 with very high -PDT.

[Cljader1]

Run's problems with Multi element caster mobs, SE how do you plan on dealing with this?? Every runs stomach drops when he see the mob move from one -aga IV to a different element -aga IV. SP IMO is worthless, it doesn't ever save my ass, the mob is mixing it up he just doesn't sit there and cast magic he's also smacking you in the face. Aegis is so great because with pld invincibility SP together they only will take 1/8 damage from magic attacks. There is nothing run can do to get this much damage mitigation.

[saevel]

I gotta take issue with your definition of a Tank, aka meatshield. Your #1 is absolutely right, spot on, but incomplete, it's #2 where we have the issues big issues, #3 is a given.

#1 is incomplete in that the job of a tank is to hold hate off EVERYONE, not just the squishy backliners, part of that is because the players changed who those backliners are. But #2, the tank is not the killer in a party (unless your pt is just you and a healer), the DD/nukers/range attackers are. Of course, this is where I talk about the change in backliners; old partys the backliners usually included a nuker or a ranger or more than 1 but these days the backline is usually just healer(s) and/or support jobs because the players have shifted DD almost solely on to melee DD, and this has played holy hell with tanking due to the way enmity is calculated. If you are a blm or rng these days and you can get partys then it's probably good friends unless there is a proc issue, it's just that major of a change. That's why we ended up with EVA tanks a few years ago in the 1st place, pld-and to some extent nins-simply couldn't do enough to hold hate in the face of the Zerg jobs. #3 is just obvious, if you are one less guy the healer has to work on the pt will just move along that much smoother.

But I don't think the flaws are solely in the job-although rune being rolled out without viable end-game gear and merits means we are at least temporarily flawed-but in the hate system itself. Now, if my count is right we haven't had the 3 adjustments to the hate system that were mentioned, and if what has been rolled out so far is any indication even 3 aren't going to make tanking any more viable as a strat, they'll need more. I don't claim to know the answer, the only possibility I can see is to uncap hate on pld, nin and rune, but then the people who have grown to like eva tanks-playing or playing with-will probably scream bloody murder ("I built this bleeping eva set and now it's useless <insert ragequit rant here>"), and I'm not even sure that will work considering our current damage output.

As to your DW comments earlier, that is NOT the only viable possibility. Making GS our primary weapon is fine IF SE does something to beef our numbers with it OR introduces Rune only GS, or rune only grips that do major special things. That IS a viable option, and considering their current plans of fixing most inherrent flaws through gear rather than job fixes (see the "fix pets" threads as an example), it may well be the way they choose to go. Mind you, I don't agree with fixing job flaws that are native with gear that has to be acquired (a job SHOULD be able to be viable just on the build of the job), gear should just be a nice addition to a good base platform.

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash. Pld has cures, cover, FLASH, etc. while we have Regens and refresh, which simply don't generate much. Nin has Yonin and shadows (ok, that's an enmity decay thing, still a factor) and a higher DPS-good ones can still eva tank, we have Blink and spikes. SJ abilities don't count, especially since any job in the game can get those, so theoretically a brd/war could tank as well as rune/war, and that would hold hate what, 3 seconds at the outside? So SE has some work to do if thier job concept is to see fruition.

Incorrect, very very incorrect.

Tanks do not hold hate off front line melee's, they can't. Front line DPS will always spike enmity during their damage routines and then themselves take damage, that is why front liners tend to wear heavier armor then back liners. The difference is that front line DPS won't hold hate all the time (at least in a properly balanced MMO). They can take a few hits and still survive, the paper thin mages on the other hand are easily obliterated. You can lose DPS's and still continue the fight, you can't lose the support crew without a wipe happening. The primary job of the tank is to keep the monsters attention off the support crew, the melee's must learn to fend for themselves.

#2 is exactly right. The sooner a monster is dead the less chance it has of wiping you, in many MMO's there is a timer on the fight and once that timer expires you lose. Killing is a secondary role though and that's why the word "feasible" was used instead of "as soon as possible". Melee's kill the target, the tank just contributes as much as they can while still keeping it off the mages. In FFXI those two goals end up being the same due to the broke enmity system (damage = hate).

The reason #3 is behind the other two is that a brick wall tank taking 0 damage is absolutely useless if the healer is still at near full MP. #3 does not need to be done to the fullest, only to the extend that the healers resources are not depleted before the fight is finished, faster you finish the fight the less chance of them running out.

SE's concept of RUN is flawed, pure and simple. It doesn't reduce damage anymore then any heavy DD job, and that's a fact nobody can argue. Lots of PDT/MDT gear exists in this game, and melee can strap it on and suddenly their getting hit for half the damage they were before. That makes RUN's "magic defenses" utterly useless for actual strategy.

So you have a light armor low attack job wielding a weapon that requires lots of attack to be effective, so their immediately disqualified as a melee. They can't hold hate, at all, due to FFXI's enmity system being entirely balanced around damage, which as previously stated they suck at doing. Finally their damage mitigation capabilities also suck and their quickly flattened by anything remotely threatening. Seriously "tanking" old content while your dual box a WHM isn't impressive, hell my RDM can do that with ease. Hold one or two delve NM's during a standard plasm run, or the minions spawned by high tier voidwatch NMs, then come back and tell us about your success. After all the #1 "tank" job in the game is only used for that, and if we're not using the #1 tank job for tanking then why in the hell would we use the #5 "tank" job.

[Yinnyth]

Run's problems with Multi element caster mobs, SE how do you plan on dealing with this?? Every runs stomach drops when he see the mob move from one -aga IV to a different element -aga IV. SP IMO is worthless, it doesn't ever save my ass, the mob is mixing it up he just doesn't sit there and cast magic he's also smacking you in the face. Aegis is so great because with pld invincibility SP together they only will take 1/8 damage from magic attacks. There is nothing run can do to get this much damage mitigation.

I would love if they gave RUN a spell that gives them a short-term, massive MDB boost. Just 10 seconds of MDB+100. Or better yet, a spell they cast on the mob which halves the magic damage they do for 5-10 seconds. Would really help to deal with that "oh crap, he's casting something I don't have runes up for right now" moment.

[Cljader1]

I would love if they gave RUN a spell that gives them a short-term, massive MDB boost. Just 10 seconds of MDB+100. Or better yet, a spell they cast on the mob which halves the magic damage they do for 5-10 seconds. Would really help to deal with that "oh crap, he's casting something I don't have runes up for right now" moment.

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years. Make's me wonder what did SE design run for? is it to tank the new Adoulin context, and more specifically tank during delve runs. Afterall, that's when SE decided to release the job. I find it ironic that run was release with the adoulin context and yet the new tank job cant survive and hold those nms. SE if your going to make a tank job that almost completely ignores the physical side along with paper bag defense, then it needs to gain its strength when the mobs cast magic. Run at the very least should be a walking breathing human aegis shield.

[Yinnyth]

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years. Make's me wonder what did SE design run for?

The difficulty is that we usually wind up playing things in ways that SE never really designed them for. Best laid plans, or some junk like that.

Ninja was never intended to be a tank, it was supposed to be subtle, low enmity, survivable damage and enfeebles. Best thing about pup? Its ability to deaggro stuff. Embrava and perfect defense conquered the world and SE eventually had to put their foot down and say "look guys, we never really thought these things would be used to defeat every event ever to the point that they're mandatory, so... we're taking them down a notch."

So it's less a matter of what SE intends RUN to be, and more a matter of what we can get RUN to do. Which right now... isn't that much. I do enjoy playing it though, I must admit.

[Cljader1]

So it's less a matter of what SE intends RUN to be, and more a matter of what we can get RUN to do. Which right now... isn't that much. I do enjoy playing it though, I must admit.

I enjoy playing it to, of course I would love to see these types of shouts "Plasm farming, 17/18 Tank, Can I have it, Run or Pld, Please send tell" and I know this is way off from reality.

[Babekeke]

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years.

The main problem with reflect for RUN, is it's primary use right now is vs mobs that only cast 1 element. Generally mobs that only cast 1 element are very strong to, or even absorb that 1 element, making reflect useless. To be worthwhile, it would have to be a flash-type buff. And by that I mean, 0.5 seconds casting time, 5-10 seconds duration, self-target, high enmity. Main use would be to reflect a spell that you're un-prepared for (wrong runes, wrong ward, OFA not up etc.

It's possible that they go down the route of SCH for AF1, and we do get a unique spell instead of a weapon/ammo.


Make's me wonder what did SE design run for? is it to tank the new Adoulin context, and more specifically tank during delve runs. Afterall, that's when SE decided to release the job. I find it ironic that run was release with the adoulin context and yet the new tank job cant survive and hold those nms. SE if your going to make a tank job that almost completely ignores the physical side along with paper bag defense, then it needs to gain its strength when the mobs cast magic. Run at the very least should be a walking breathing human aegis shield.

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

Can you imagine how p155ed off every aegis owner would be if RUN stepped onto the scene, no merits, no AF/relic/empy gear, no mythic/relic/empy weapon, and was on par with an aegis PLD for tanking magical NMs.

What RUN needs to get a niche tanking role, is more mobs like the ACP boss which hit like a truck, but melee attacks were considered magical damage. As I recall, they were AOE too. That would be brilliant as far as I can see, RUN would be just about the only job capable of getting close to the mob. What I don't remember is whether it had an element to it's attacks. This would obviously be preferable for RUN.

Alternatively, mobs with low damage high-speed attacks, but high en-spell damage. Obviously Aegis would also be good for this, but RUN would be an alternative option.

[Yinnyth]

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

Can you imagine how p155ed off every aegis owner would be if RUN stepped onto the scene, no merits, no AF/relic/empy gear, no mythic/relic/empy weapon, and was on par with an aegis PLD for tanking magical NMs.

Ragnarok is a relic too, and RUN already gets access to something which puts them on par with Ragnarok DDs. But if that's what it takes to get RUN up to where it's competitive with Aegis PLD, sure, let's give RUN a relic grip which is as amazing as Aegis is. I'd be ok with putting the same effort into my RUN to make it more effective. It's just that there's no such path available currently.

[Sfchakan]

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

[Zagen]

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.
The thing is it takes Aegis for a PLD to call itself a good tank against magical damage or rather a "magical tank" you know what RUN was pitched to be. On top of not only mitigating a good amount of magical damage the fact that the shield is a size 5 with 60-70% block rate goes pretty far in reducing all physical damage taken something RUN can't do.

I agree that we needed ACP boss type mobs, though I think that was non-elemental damage. Even if we're both remembering the mechanics incorrectly RUN needed a mob that deals elemental magic damage and not non-elemental when meleeing to be worth anything.

It's like SE has no communication between the job design team and the end game design team which is odd considering FFXI is run by a skeleton crew atm and those design decisions were likely made by some of the same people. I mean who came up with Gabbrath family and decided it's melee would be physical damage instead of fire element magic damage? Almost as though SE wanted RUN to fail as a magical tank.

Maybe we're the naive ones expecting RUN to be worth anything as a tank without it's mythic weapon since it won't be getting a relic or emp weapon.


I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

It's not as good as any job at any role... Aegis PLD was used because that's what you look at when you need a tank that can eat a lot of magical damage and RUN was pitched as a magical tank.

GEO says hi. No Artifact/Relic/Emp/Mythic and already has places in small and large man groups. Maybe you should have actually read the whole thread as this has been pointed out already.

[Cljader1]

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

Since you only read 5 posts your ignorance might be excused.

[Babekeke]

GEO says hi. No Artifact/Relic/Emp/Mythic and already has places in small and large man groups. Maybe you should have actually read the whole thread as this has been pointed out already.

This is the only thing bugging me right now about RUN. GEO can do it's job successfully in and out of Adoulin, and even on the hardest of delve mobs. Yet GEO is getting lots of info about forthcoming updates to fix it. The good news is that the JPs are also complaining about RUN's inability to tank anything in Adoulin, so there's a good chance of a fix in the works.

[saevel]

This is the only thing bugging me right now about RUN. GEO can do it's job successfully in and out of Adoulin, and even on the hardest of delve mobs. Yet GEO is getting lots of info about forthcoming updates to fix it. The good news is that the JPs are also complaining about RUN's inability to tank anything in Adoulin, so there's a good chance of a fix in the works.

There is literally nothing SE could do to RUN in it's current form that would allow it to "tank" anything. They would have to redesign the job in a way similar to what they did PUP and to a lessor extent SCH. SE needs to fundamentally redesign large portions of the job in order for it to be considered for use in any current content. Soloing level 75 NM's doesn't count as current content.

[Babekeke]

There is literally nothing SE could do to RUN in it's current form that would allow it to "tank" anything. They would have to redesign the job in a way similar to what they did PUP and to a lessor extent SCH. SE needs to fundamentally redesign large portions of the job in order for it to be considered for use in any current content. Soloing level 75 NM's doesn't count as current content.

Complete BS. The only hard part is to come up with something that doesn't make it brokenly good, instead of brokenly bad.

Perhaps a Counterstance-like ability, but for parrying. +15% Parry rate per active Rune, at the expense of not getting en-spell damage whilst the ability is active.

Heck, even giving it Perfect Parry would go a fair way to helping maintaining buffs. Though to rely on it's own enhancing magic to reduce damage, it either needs severe fast cast, severe Conserve MP, native auto-refresh, A+ Enhancing Magic, or a combination or all of them.

No doubt among the Empy gear and accessories it will get access to some pieces with refresh on them, that are hopefully useful to full-time, or at least situationally useful to full-time. So that may help to alleviate MP issues when trying to full-time flash, foil, phalanx, aquaveil and maybe regen or an occasional stoneskin.


Greetings geomancers!

To get a little more specific and build on what Okipuit mentioned previously, in the next version update we will be performing the below adjustments to geomancer in addition to adding a merit point category.


Shortening of the casting time for geomancy spells (indi and geo)
Addition of the job trait “Clear Mind”
Addition of the job trait “Max MP Boost”
Adjustment to the level in which the “Conserve MP” job trait is learned
Addition of the spells “Sleep” and “Sleep II”
*To go along with the addition of Sleep and Sleep II enfeebling skill will also be added.


Geo is getting 2 new JTs, Conserve MP earlier, which might mean higher tiers of it, shorter casing times for 2/3rds of it's spells, 2 new spells, and an entire new magic skill. And it is already useful in SoA events.

RUN got a bit more enmity on Foil. And is still not yet useful in SoA events.

[Yinnyth]

Geo is getting 2 new JTs, Conserve MP earlier, which might mean higher tiers of it, shorter casing times for 2/3rds of it's spells, 2 new spells, and an entire new magic skill. And it is already useful in SoA events.

RUN got a bit more enmity on Foil. And is still not yet useful in SoA events.
Last update was more focused on fixing RUN, and GEO got hardly anything. Source:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/32909-April-30-2013-(JST)-Version-Update




Geomancer
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/attachment.php?attachmentid=6573&d=1367235267&thumb=1

The potency of geomancy spells that increase and reduce accuracy, magic accuracy, evasion, and magic evasion have been adjusted.




Rune Fencer
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/attachment.php?attachmentid=6574&d=1367235288&thumb=1

The amount by which Rune Enchantment increases elemental resistances has been raised.
The following abilities have undergone recast time and effect duration adjustments:

Vallation
Recast time has been reduced from five minutes to three.
Effect duration has been reduced from three minutes to two.
　
Pflug
Recast time has been reduced from five minutes to three.
Effect duration has been reduced from three minutes to two.

　
Valiance
Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to five.
　
One For All
Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to five.
Liement
Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to three.
Effect duration has been reduced from one minute to ten seconds.


While I agree that RUN could use some more help than GEO right now, it's really GEO's turn. Besides, both jobs are getting merits and AF next update, so it's not like RUN is getting nothing.

[Shibayama]

I do hope that they upload the merit categories on the test server for RUN so we can try them out beforehand - hopefully it's both the G1 and G2's, but I can see it only being the G1's for the time being - usually the G2's come out later and since the relic +2 is now tied in with merit category abilities I can see that happening.

[Glamdring]

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

then you probably haven't been able to tell that almost all remarks have been prefaced with things like "not knowing what our merits or JSE will bring..." Only 1 or 2 people have been speaking like they are some kind of authority on the complete job and they are generally being shot down, because noone can be an authority in the absence of the facts-unless they have inside info, like a dev... HOWEVER, what we all do know, we won't get a relic at all and it looks like we won't get an empy either; mythic weapon-well people are hanging on a statement to a 3rd party when the job was 1st announced, but bsts were promissed TH gear and then told we weren't so I for one am not counting on that until I see it.

If anything this thread is more about pointing out design flaws that we hope will be addressed since the job is still in the development stage-and that many should not be resolved with merits or gear but job tweaks themselves. It is also to point out the level this job needs to be raised to by the new content if it is to be an anti-magic version of its paladin counterpart (if pld was meant to be a counterpart, seems likely the way they mirrored spell lists and the like)-not likely considering the concentration on physical damage amongst the new prey, also not likely since this is a comparrison to a job with gear we will not be given a counterpart to per SE's relic comments. All in all it amounts to 2 words, "DO SOMETHING"!

[Babekeke]

Last update was more focused on fixing RUN, and GEO got hardly anything. Source:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/32909-April-30-2013-(JST)-Version-Update


[/LIST]
[/LIST]
[/LIST]While I agree that RUN could use some more help than GEO right now, it's really GEO's turn. Besides, both jobs are getting merits and AF next update, so it's not like RUN is getting nothing.

RUN's updates were adjustments to what it already had. Geo is getting completely new stuff.

[Cljader1]

RUN's updates were adjustments to what it already had. Geo is getting completely new stuff.

Absolutely right about that, but they still need to fix the stuff will already have. Im so disgusted at liement ward, now Im wishing they change it back to 10 minutes recast with 45 sec duration at least it was usable. Embolden there's alot to say about this, mainly its luckluster the penalty is to heavy and only good for pro/shell, something like composure would have been much better "yeah I know its rdm only." Now then have the wards "Vallation, Pflug, Valiance" they all suck, the max protection you get from these wards with all the same runes up is 50% from one element, aegis shield is better than all our wards and runes combined. How can one piece of equipment crush a job class and make it obsolete, SE you didn't see a problem with this? I do not ever want aegis to be nerfed EVER, I just want you to concentrate and bring run up to a qualified and respectable tank capable of doing its job.

[Yinnyth]

Im so disgusted at liement ward, now Im wishing they change it back to 10 minutes recast with 45 sec duration at least it was usable.

I must disagree with this point. RUN is a reactionary job, and this is one of the things I like best about it. Liement could only absorb one source of damage anyways, so as long as you anticipate or react well, liement was made 3x better last update. I personally hope they add some piece of gear which causes liement to grant a stoneskin effect equal to the damage absorbed in order to better reward players for their reflexes, but leave the duration as 10 seconds to punish blindly mashing buttons.

[saevel]

Complete BS. The only hard part is to come up with something that doesn't make it brokenly good, instead of brokenly bad.

Perhaps a Counterstance-like ability, but for parrying. +15% Parry rate per active Rune, at the expense of not getting en-spell damage whilst the ability is active.

Heck, even giving it Perfect Parry would go a fair way to helping maintaining buffs. Though to rely on it's own enhancing magic to reduce damage, it either needs severe fast cast, severe Conserve MP, native auto-refresh, A+ Enhancing Magic, or a combination or all of them.

No doubt among the Empy gear and accessories it will get access to some pieces with refresh on them, that are hopefully useful to full-time, or at least situationally useful to full-time. So that may help to alleviate MP issues when trying to full-time flash, foil, phalanx, aquaveil and maybe regen or an occasional stoneskin.



Geo is getting 2 new JTs, Conserve MP earlier, which might mean higher tiers of it, shorter casing times for 2/3rds of it's spells, 2 new spells, and an entire new magic skill. And it is already useful in SoA events.

RUN got a bit more enmity on Foil. And is still not yet useful in SoA events.

You really don't understand whats broke with RUN do you?

Right now there is absolutely no place for it in either 18 member alliance content nor 3~6 member small group content. There is nothing it provides that can't be done better by someone else. Most of what people have requested fall into the category of "nifty tools", which can be nice but first require the job have a solid position to begin with. As of now it's usefulness is lower then BST, DNC and PUP.

People do not mindlessly invite jobs into their groups and randomly attack content. Instead they formulate a strategy, either on their own on copy & paste from a place like BGwiki or ffxiah. Thus in order for a job to be deemed useful it must first offer the person building the group a reason to build it into a strategy. "It takes less magic damage" means JACK SH!T in this game. Boss NM's primarily deal damage through a combination of physical damage and dumb status ailments (Zombie, Charm, Weakness, Doom, KO), the few actually dangerous magic attacks (Meteor / Klaustra) RUN can do f*ck all for anyway.

"Tanks" in the traditional sense (focus of bad guy hate) are just buffed melee's with curaga support, RUN isn't going to replace one of them. The super defensive folks only hold NM's and their adds, RUN isn't doing that. Support crew consists of a healer and dedicated buffing jobs like COR and BRD. RUN isn't healing folks and isn't going to be a better buffer then BRD or COR.

So what your left with is the equivalent of a melee RDM without elemental, healing or enfeebling magic but with access to light DD gear, great swords and no damage boosts. Congrats your now competing with RDM as the most useless / dead job currently in the game, at least RDM's enfeebles are actually useful though in a very gimmicky way.

Seriously sometimes I think you people are living in your own reality distortion field.

[Kojo]

I wouldn't mind seeing RUN get a tier 1 Counter trait, or something similar. Then there's the "Riposte" spell/ability a few of us have suggested, and Foil either needs a longer duration or a much lower MP cost.

[Duelle]

"Tanks" in the traditional sense (focus of bad guy hate) are just buffed melee's with curaga support, RUN isn't going to replace one of them.The job was sold as a tank. It's on SE to ensure it fits that role. I doubt the devs are hoping for another utsusemi mishap with RUN.

[Archaea]

Eh Ive actually tanked Delve content with no problem.... Butterflies Chapuli, Taxet, Foret Crab, scorp, soloed a few slightly silly things like Yaanei on mobs that cast multiple elements react with the appropriate bar spell and swapping into MDT gear... and make sure to embolden Shell 5... im actually impressed with RUNs tanking abilities thus far and cant wait for merits/jse/alltehotherfunstuff (prior to everything being zerged of course whic means i was also tanking while they were raged)

Also as far as foil is concerned if you're getting Refresh 2 you should be fine on MP Flume belt + ethereal take care of whats missing... just takes some actual thought and good reactions to tank

[Cljader1]

Run needs to be reworked, a magic tank with no offensive magic, no enfeebles, no stun, and no survivability. Run should have restorative capabilities like a JA that convert all Lux runes into HP. Survivability is a big issue, and its another reason why we can't tank, if run is suppose to thrive in a magic fight why aren't we the best at it. Aegis will always be the PINK ELEPHANT in the room. I wish SE would give us a response on RUN and what there going to do with it.

[Zagen]

Run needs to be reworked, a magic tank with no offensive magic, no enfeebles, no stun, and no survivability. Run should have restorative capabilities like a JA that convert all Lux runes into HP. Survivability is a big issue, and its another reason why we can't tank, if run is suppose to thrive in a magic fight why aren't we the best at it. Aegis will always be the PINK ELEPHANT in the room. I wish SE would give us a response on RUN and what there going to do with it.

I honestly don't think they have a clue what to do with it when it comes to being a magical tank. The sad part is many good ideas have been thrown out on the forums that would push it into a magical tank or a magical damage dealer roles. Either role I'd be happy seeing as each could serve a purpose. Though most of them require a decent amount of work and I've gotten the impression that that's more work than they want/can dedicate to it.

[Cljader1]

Eh Ive actually tanked Delve content with no problem.... Butterflies Chapuli, Taxet, Foret Crab, scorp, soloed a few slightly silly things like Yaanei on mobs that cast multiple elements react with the appropriate bar spell and swapping into MDT gear

You tanked Tax'et on run, yeah ok..

[nyheen]

You tanked Tax'et on run, yeah ok.. you do know Taxet spam only fire spells/TP so ya them type of 1 element mob only are very nice for rune

[Yinnyth]

you do know Taxet spam only fire spells/TP so ya them type of 1 element mob only are very nice for rune

Back when Tax'et raged, it would be outright impossible as soon as rage set in. Even now, it's borderline possible. The hardest thing would be holding hate off the massive damage which needs to be done in order to kill it in 20 minutes. Either way, your chances are better with Aegis PLD.

Oh, I should clarify: I mean because his melee attacks will rip RUN up. RUN should (in theory) be able to take a beating from Tax'et's magical attacks (though I think erosion dust does some element besides fire, no?). 40+ MDT times 45 ward bonus is about 67% reduction to fire damage, plus the chance to resist fire damage further with 200 fire resist. Half resist would bring it down to 16.5%, quarter to 8.25%, eigth to 4.125%. But why would you gamble on that when Aegis PLD would laugh off his physical attacks and always take only 12.25% damage from his magical attacks? Even in that situation, RUN is still just the "Well, I can't find a PLD, so let's gamble on RUN... only uses one element of magical damage anyways, so we should be fine, right?" job. Not the "This enemy does craploads of magical damage, so I really hope we can find a RUN." job it was painted to be at first glance.

[nyheen]

why do i get the feeling a nerf gonna end up coming soon. i already called the sch 2 hour nerf.

[Yinnyth]

why do i get the feeling a nerf gonna end up coming soon. i already called the sch 2 hour nerf.

Nerf what? Aegis? PLD? ...RUN? I won't say those are impossible, but I will say it's unlikely.

The heart of this problem exists in SE backing themselves into a corner on many issues- damage taken being a big one. Yes, Aegis is broken powerful, but PLD is not. So I think it's safe for now.

[Cljader1]

I fought tax'et on run plenty of times and died on run plenty times. I remember popping a "One for All" on me dd's pld and almost got kicked for ripping hate from the pld. After I ripped hate I got hit 2-3 times with physical attacks at +500 a piece and died quickly, pug group was highly upset and not my greatest run moment. However, what I realized is run paperbag defense will not allow it to be and effective tank. However tax'et has a move that can one shot you and run can valiance or vallation to stop that one shot aoe ability, but pld but doesn't need any such ability to live they have the super aegis shield that's on all the time and there is no paper bag def problem plus a 65% block rate with that shield, that's the job who can stare the mob in the face. Furthermore, if all else fails pld can use a secret tactic and Zombie Tank, which is another thing run cant do.

Please do not ever nerf Aegis shield I love that shield and its been here long before run, fix run from not being such an embarrassment compared to the shield and leave the shield alone. Job fixes is what needs to be addressed, I hope SE gets it.

[Archaea]

I fought tax'et on run plenty of times and died on run plenty times. I remember popping a "One for All" on me dd's pld and almost got kicked for ripping hate from the pld. After I ripped hate I got hit 2-3 times with physical attacks at +500 a piece and died quickly, pug group was highly upset and not my greatest run moment. However, what I realized is run paperbag defense will not allow it to be and effective tank. However tax'et has a move that can one shot you and run can valiance or vallation to stop that one shot aoe ability, but pld but doesn't need any such ability to live they have the super aegis shield that's on all the time and there is no paper bag def problem plus a 65% block rate with that shield, that's the job who can stare the mob in the face. Furthermore, if all else fails pld can use a secret tactic and Zombie Tank, which is another thing run cant do.

Please do not ever nerf Aegis shield I love that shield and its been here long before run, fix run from not being such an embarrassment compared to the shield and leave the shield alone. Job fixes is what needs to be addressed, I hope SE gets it.



So... how are you guys even geared cus ive hit upwards of 1.1k defense on RUN... 950ish when i dont embolden protect 5. Consistant -50% pdt every fast cast item available except for chelona boots +1(using NQ) using actual tank food and phalanx... these NMs only hit for 75-115 dmg a hit hell the butterflies have hit me for less than that(usually 60-100... with proper use of aquaveil and stoneskin you mitigate quite a large chunk of damage. and RUN easily hits -87.5% MDT...... -.- Embolden Shell 5 then -14% MDT from gear. meaning you can put resists and MDB in all other available slots dont forget liement can absorb magic tp moves as well...
And raged taxet the only move truely worth mentioning is his TP move which could have hit for 1.6k while raged. Now its even easier to deal with cus you're just forcing exuv then letting DDs rip it appart


in no way shape or form have i said its better than PLD. Ive said its capable.
Preforms very well ALONGSIDE a pld and can stand alone if needed

[Cljader1]

So... how are you guys even geared cus ive hit upwards of 1.1k defense on RUN... 950ish when i dont embolden protect 5. Consistant -50% pdt every fast cast item available except for chelona boots +1(using NQ) using actual tank food and phalanx... these NMs only hit for 75-115 dmg a hit hell the butterflies have hit me for less than that(usually 60-100... with proper use of aquaveil and stoneskin you mitigate quite a large chunk of damage. and RUN easily hits -87.5% MDT...... -.- Embolden Shell 5 then -14% MDT from gear. meaning you can put resists and MDB in all other available slots dont forget liement can absorb magic tp moves as well...
And raged taxet the only move truely worth mentioning is his TP move which could have hit for 1.6k while raged. Now its even easier to deal with cus you're just forcing exuv then letting DDs rip it appart


in no way shape or form have i said its better than PLD. Ive said its capable.
Preforms very well ALONGSIDE a pld and can stand alone if needed

Run does not have pro 5. I don't think run is capable of holding nm's at the moment, you cant embolden everything and you can't reapply aquaviel and stoneskin whenever you want because of the long casting times. Yeah I can get a 1000 def going /blu with tacos, cacoon and embolden pro 4, but buffs do not last long and are very difficult to reapply. Cacoon wears off in like 60 seconds, and flash deos not give you to much time agianst a adoulin nm. Run have no restorative capabilities besides very slow regens and when tanking they are almost useless.

[Yinnyth]

So... how are you guys even geared cus ive hit upwards of 1.1k defense on RUN... 950ish when i dont embolden protect 5. Consistant -50% pdt every fast cast item available except for chelona boots +1(using NQ) using actual tank food and phalanx...
Where are you getting this consistant 50% PDT from, and how do you hold hate if you TP in it?


these NMs only hit for 75-115 dmg a hit hell the butterflies have hit me for less than that(usually 60-100... with proper use of aquaveil and stoneskin you mitigate quite a large chunk of damage. and RUN easily hits -87.5% MDT...... -.- Embolden Shell 5 then -14% MDT from gear. meaning you can put resists and MDB in all other available slots dont forget liement can absorb magic tp moves as well...
RUN cannot hit -87.5% MDT, even against a single element. MDT caps at 50% and aegis is the only MDT source in the game capable of breaking that cap aside from vallation/valliance. With 3 runes, vall gives 45% damage reduction against its element, but it's MULTIPLIED, not added to MDT. So if you have 50% MDT and use vallation with unda x3, you will take 72.25% decreased damage from fire, not the 87.5% that aegis makes a PLD capable of. And don't forget liement can absorb spikes damage for a whole 20 HP then wear off.


And raged taxet the only move truely worth mentioning is his TP move which could have hit for 1.6k while raged. Now its even easier to deal with cus you're just forcing exuv then letting DDs rip it appart
Force exuv >> rip him apart was always the strategy. RUN still has very little to do with that strategy unless you can't find a PLD or heavy DDs.



in no way shape or form have i said its better than PLD. Ive said its capable.
Preforms very well ALONGSIDE a pld and can stand alone if needed

This whole thread is regarding the idea that Aegis PLD outclasses RUN in tanking anything and everything. If you agree that Aegis PLD is better at taking magical damage than RUN, why come here to highlight what RUN is capable of? Every job deserves that thing they're best at. What is RUN best at?

[Archaea]

Where are you getting this consistant 50% PDT from, and how do you hold hate if you TP in it?


RUN cannot hit -87.5% MDT, even against a single element. MDT caps at 50% and aegis is the only MDT source in the game capable of breaking that cap aside from vallation/valliance. With 3 runes, vall gives 45% damage reduction against its element, but it's MULTIPLIED, not added to MDT. So if you have 50% MDT and use vallation with unda x3, you will take 72.25% decreased damage from fire, not the 87.5% that aegis makes a PLD capable of. And don't forget liement can absorb spikes damage for a whole 20 HP then wear off.


Force exuv >> rip him apart was always the strategy. RUN still has very little to do with that strategy unless you can't find a PLD or heavy DDs.




This whole thread is regarding the idea that Aegis PLD outclasses RUN in tanking anything and everything. If you agree that Aegis PLD is better at taking magical damage than RUN, why come here to highlight what RUN is capable of? Every job deserves that thing they're best at. What is RUN best at?


Yeah that was an I'm half asleep mistake as far as the 87.5% was running PLDs numbers in my head at the time. anyway. Unless a mob has ridiculous fast cast you can Rune > Liement only 1 correct rune is required for the absorb.
RUN does indeed only need 14% to hit the -50% MDT cap which is accomplished by a simple Dring + Twilight torque or something similar meaning again... MDB in all other available slots.

And what do you mean spike damage of a whole 20hp. Its more-so there to NEGATE the damage than absorb it... the heal is just a nice addition RUN doesn't get Pro 5 but you can currently embolden a protect/protectra5 that's being cast ON you. You dont embolden everything. You consider which will be the bigger threat.. The Magic or the Physical and embolden accordingly.(Oh you ment things like blaze spikes... if you arent smart enough to turn around when something has spikes on and is casting then thats a personal problem lol....)

Single element magic damage is seriously just a joke to deal with and doesn't hurt at all. I also still think its funny that we're comparing a job that's been out since 2003 that's had numerous changes and 10 years of gear under its belt to something that came out recently and has nothing specifically made for them.

As far as Tax'et is concerned no tank is going to hold hate off Heavy-DDs unless they're severely gimping themselves... the idea is to keep hate off your support(in the event heavy DDs die) and to hold hate during the exuv phase... Capping and Maintaining capped VE is extremely easy so tanking in full PDT is perfectly fine.

Lets go over your hate tools and their numbers....
These are all base numbers assuming you didn't macro in Enmity gear which I do.

Gambit: CE 640, VE 1280
Flash: CE 180, VE 1280
Provoke: CE 1, VE 1800
Rune Enchantments: 80 CE, 320 VE
Vallation: 450 CE, 900 VE
Liement: 450 CE 900VE
Valiance: 450 CE, 900VE per target hit (hitting the entire PT is 2700 CE, 5400 VE)
One for all: 160 CE, 320 VE per target hit
Swordplay: 160 CE, 320 VE
Warcry: 1 CE, 300 VE per target hit
Elemental Sforzo: 1800 CE, 7200 VE
every buff you recast: ~1 CE, 300 VE
Correct me if I'm wrong but None of PLDs abilities even generate CE over 1 aside from Invincible?

Value for Pflug and Revamped Foil I'm not sure about but lack of hate tools is definitely not an issue. Someones probably going to throw out acc issues but you can stack aggressor and swordplay since you aren't going to be evading anything in the first place

As far as magic damage ok. We'll assume ideal conditions then. Single Element. so with 72.25% -MDT to a specific element and 50% -MDT to all others we also have to factor in resists. You will have 162 resistance just from runes and an additional 126 with capped enhancing magic(no enhancing skill gear just merits) so a total of 288 resistance to that element before gear(Lets not include carols because if the PLD gets em the RUN should too. Now i don't have exact numbers for that sadly so ill just lowball and say I get a level 1 resist 1/3rd of the time, even though its actually waaaay more often than that.

so depending on how ffxi does magic resist math that means 1/3rd(low balling) of the time a spell that would hit you for 1000 dmg would only hit for 138.75 assuming this value is floored so 138. 2 spells hit for 277 1 spell hits for 138: 692 damage
PLD takes 375. Now lets add in Liement You absorb one of the spells that hits for 277 so now you're only taking 415 damage. Now lets go out on a limb here and say you have the same stoneskin set that i have(-8% cast time and 31 Fast Cast. We can Go ahead and negate another spell with that because i can assure you i can and have completed a stoneskin cast while being nuked with a T4/5 spell so between the 3 casts you either take 138 dmg or 277 dmg. (Im too sleepy to throw in the 1/4th and 1/8th resists that happen quite often and I also didn't factor in magic defense bonus

RUN gets 22 base MDB(Magic Defense Bonus VII) with simple things such as, lamia mantle +1 the delve neck piece, Lunette Ring, really old boots with like +2 mdb or something mijin stud you're adding another +23 and an additional +10 resist from the correct satchet putting you at 298 resist. Oh yeah and One for all is a strait shield that negates a set amount of damage(please correct me if I'm wrong on that).

I'm addressing the complaint that RUN cant tank ANYTHING in the new content that's been said multiple times and is completely untrue. Before pointing out the title of the thread consider everything that's been said since we all know that threads completely derail. More than once it's been said that RUN cant handle any of the new content and that statement is completely untrue.

So in a situation where the enemy is casting single elements, RUN outclasses Aegis PLD in magic damage taken


And reapplying stoneskin and aquaveil really isn't hard at all. You have flash for when you accidentally let aquaveil drop but remember its -100% SIR for a set number of hits depending on enhancing skill. I get 3 Hits uninterrupted and only get hit 1-2 times during casting so alternating the 2 is completely feasible.




Oh and consistant PDT
ToM Gsword -13%
Twilight Neck -5%
Mollusca Mantle -5%
Flume Belt -4%
Dux Head Body Hands Legs -13%
Thurandaut feet -3%
My crappy dark rings -9%
52% 2% over cap // meaning 7% missing from not having dux+1 and 2x 6 pdt dark rings and a -2% pdt earring (<3 ethereal too much to do 2 pdt earrings) giving you 11% of room to play with some slots

[Zagen]

RUN does indeed only need 14% to hit the -50% MDT cap which is accomplished by a simple Dring + Twilight torque or something similar meaning again... MDB in all other available slots.
I find it funny you even bring up Defending Ring, generally that ring is excluded because of it's rarity but hey if a RUN can use it so can an Aegis PLD!

Shellra V = 27%
Defending Ring = 10%
Aegis 99 = 50%
Total = 87% (.5% short of the cap Aegis allows)

Look it only takes PLD 2 gear slots too except that 1 gear slot allows it to surpass the 50% cap that RUN is stuck at.

By the way that's full time before you bring up Valiance. If Valiance could be full timed that would be a different story as that should always actually be better (assuming only 1 element is used by the monster) than an Aegis 99 PLD's reduction but it isn't full time its 3/5 minutes.

Already overall better than RUN and I haven't even brought up the 65% block rate or that it's a size 5 shield.


I also still think its funny that we're comparing a job that's been out since 2003 that's had numerous changes and 10 years of gear under its belt to something that came out recently and has nothing specifically made for them
You realize we're comparing it to that because at the moment that job in the context of the OP is the "magical tank" which is what RUN was pegged to be.


As far as Tax'et is concerned no tank is going to hold hate off Heavy-DDs unless they're severely gimping themselves... the idea is to keep hate off your support(in the event heavy DDs die) and to hold hate during the exuv phase... Capping and Maintaining capped VE is extremely easy so tanking in full PDT is perfectly fine.
You're right not even a PLD is going to hold hate off the DDs once they're brought in to kill this NM however a PLD will hold it much better than a RUN would while trying to remove it's PDT. Also those DDs give up much less than a RUN does when using a hybrid PDT/Haste build.


Lets go over your hate tools and their numbers....
These are all base numbers assuming you didn't macro in Enmity gear which I do.

Gambit: CE 640, VE 1280
Flash: CE 180, VE 1280
Provoke: CE 1, VE 1800
Rune Enchantments: 80 CE, 320 VE
Vallation: 450 CE, 900 VE
Liement: 450 CE 900VE
Valiance: 450 CE, 900VE per target hit (hitting the entire PT is 2700 CE, 5400 VE)
One for all: 160 CE, 320 VE per target hit
Swordplay: 160 CE, 320 VE
Warcry: 1 CE, 300 VE per target hit
Elemental Sforzo: 1800 CE, 7200 VE
every buff you recast: ~1 CE, 300 VE
Correct me if I'm wrong but None of PLDs abilities even generate CE over 1 aside from Invincible?
You are correct though I crossed out the abilities that aren't exclusive to RUN. That said you're the only person who's brought up the notion that a RUN needs to justify it's ability to generate hate, except that was never the question.


I'm addressing the complaint that RUN cant tank ANYTHING in the new content that's been said multiple times and is completely untrue.

I see the problem here, we didn't say it couldn't tank anything hell a WHM could tank the new content with proper support to allow that to work. Is that a good idea? No. The issue is that a RUN can't tank anything better than a DD let alone an Aegis PLD which is what a player thinks of when you hear "magical tank".



And reapplying stoneskin and aquaveil really isn't hard at all. You have flash for when you accidentally let aquaveil drop but remember its -100% SIR for a set number of hits depending on enhancing skill. I get 3 Hits uninterrupted and only get hit 1-2 times during casting so alternating the 2 is completely feasible
Aquaveil does what against stun or knock backs? Nothing.
Flash gives the monster -100~ ACC which sounds awesome until you consider just how much Accuracy those monsters have to make THF/NIN/DNC evasion tanking unappealing let alone RUN evasion tanking.

Assuming you're not in an evasion build (as you mention a PDT build) the monster's accuracy would have to be 378 for flash to floor it to 20%, 437 for flash to drop it to 50%. Obviously I'm over simplifying but considering a player has much more than 437 accuracy naked (besides weapon) what makes you think a monster's accuracy is that bad?



Oh and consistant PDT
ToM Gsword -13%
Twilight Neck -5%
Mollusca Mantle -5%
Flume Belt -4%
Dux Head Body Hands Legs -13%
Thurandaut feet -3%
My crappy dark rings -9%
52% 2% over cap // meaning 7% missing from not having dux+1 and 2x 6 pdt dark rings and a -2% pdt earring (<3 ethereal too much to do 2 pdt earrings) giving you 11% of room to play with some slots

Here's PLD's PDT build:

Defending Ring = 10%
Mekira Meikogai = 8%
Phorcys Schuhs = 5%
Twilight Torque = 5%
TotM Sword = 11%
Dark Ring = 6%
Mollusca Mantle = 5%

Total = -50% PDT and it leaves the head, hands, legs, waste, ears, ammo open for ACC and/or haste (technically this is a build for WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG if you replace the TotM Sword respectively). I intentionally excluded PLD's emp armor as RUN has none atm before someone tries to call me out on that.

Oh and again I haven't even factored in the 65% block rate with a size 5 shield. Hell even an AH shield would offer more to physical damage reduction than Inquartata.

[Yinnyth]

And what do you mean spike damage of a whole 20hp.

I mean blaze spikes, ice spikes, etc. If you use liement because the enemy is casting flare II, then you hit the enemy and take spikes damage, liement will absorb the blaze spikes damage and wear off. Your comment was a reminder that liement works on powerful TP moves, mine was that it can fizzle in certain situations.

[Archaea]

As far as reapplying buffs goes. That,s where the aspect of a reactionary job comes into play.. VS knockback you ideally pin yourself against a wall if that's not available you obviously wait until after the knockback or swap gear just before the knockback move happens Causing you to not get knocked back. When stun is a concern you wait until after its happened of course. If it happens because its the spell or magic based tp move that doesn't take away from your remaining aquaveil hits.

I mentioned a Dring but i left it out of the build if you didn't notice as we all know obtaining one is LOLrific I should have refered to the exact itms instead of saying "or something" however so that is my fault. Minervas Ring Twilight Torque 1 Merman earring. MDB is every other available slot


By the way that's full time before you bring up Valiance. If Valiance could be full timed that would be a different story as that should always actually be better (assuming only 1 element is used by the monster) than an Aegis 99 PLD's reduction but it isn't full time its 3/5 minutes.
Valliance and Vallation do the same thing One is a 3 Minute timer lasts 2 mins and is self only. One is a 5 Minute timer lasts 3 mins and is multitarget. So... wheres the not being able to fulltime come in? Then again my fault for assuming someone would think to alternate them.

You're right not even a PLD is going to hold hate off the DDs once they're brought in to kill this NM however a PLD will hold it much better than a RUN would while trying to remove it's PDT. Also those DDs give up much less than a RUN does when using a hybrid PDT/Haste build.

In every situation where ive tanked alongside a PLD I held hate the majority of the time. Best tell ive gotten from a PLD went along the lines of "Let me know if you need me to do anything LOL"

Now for the quotes addressing "We havent said anything about XXX"

Complete Inability to tank:

This is the only thing bugging me right now about RUN. GEO can do it's job successfully in and out of Adoulin, and even on the hardest of delve mobs. Yet GEO is getting lots of info about forthcoming updates to fix it. The good news is that the JPs are also complaining about RUN's inability to tank anything in Adoulin, so there's a good chance of a fix in the works.

Hate control:

Where are you getting this consistant 50% PDT from, and how do you hold hate if you TP in it?
I did not bring it up first. I brought it up due to this remark.


Hold one or two delve NM's during a standard plasm run, or the minions spawned by high tier voidwatch NMs, then come back and tell us about your success.Sadly holding 2 i'snt gonna happen due to the nature of (and in my opinion its biggest weakness) spell interrupts. Holding 1 NM however is pretty darn easy

[Yinnyth]

This whole thread is regarding the fact that Aegis makes PLD a better magical tank than RUN. Any sub-arguments, incredulous remarks, or replies of disbelief towards your claims, Archaea, are most likely being made to help support that primary concern.

If all you're addressing is the hyperbole that RUN can't tank anything, allow me to remedy the comments already made and any future comments made by saying that they mean RUN can't tank well enough to justify using them over some other job which could put out better damage or offer better survivability and enmity control.

[Archaea]

And this is the response I'll accept. But give it a day or 2 and its just gonna derail again. The enmity control part is still a bit questionable to me tho since PLDs only avenue to generate CE is damage. :P

/bow

[Yinnyth]

Yeah, CE is what seems to make RUN a little bit unique as far as tanking goes. Since RUN is capable of better damage than PLD and their runes/wards build decent CE, RUN should be able to hold hate fairly well in theory. The problem is that they shed that CE almost as quickly as they build it unless hate is bouncing around.

[Zagen]

I'm just going to comment on this part.


Valliance and Vallation do the same thing One is a 3 Minute timer lasts 2 mins and is self only. One is a 5 Minute timer lasts 3 mins and is multitarget. So... wheres the not being able to fulltime come in? Then again my fault for assuming someone would think to alternate them.

Sorry I should have said something, I ignored Vallation because a PLD/RUN can use it granted that's 5% less but it's still not enough to make RUN a better overall tank.

[Cljader1]

And this is the response I'll accept. But give it a day or 2 and its just gonna derail again. The enmity control part is still a bit questionable to me tho since PLDs only avenue to generate CE is damage. :P

/bow

You could've got that response by reading my original post.

[saevel]

Defense isn't how PLD reduces physical damage intake. Seriously ... my BLU can get 1200~1600 defense if I really want, it's not that big a deal as it'll still kick your a$$ due to it's base DMG.

PLD's reduce physical damage through a combination of uber shield blocks (Aegis or OChain) and the amazing DT gear that heavy DD can wear. It's there that RUN fails the hardest. Without a percentage based blocking mechanism nor access to the heavy gear, their effective physical defense is that of a THF or non-counter MNK. Basically non-existent.

That's without getting into the sad enmity system that makes the best "tanks" DRK / SAM / WAR's. Actually WAR is probably the games #1 best "tank", provided they got a Bravura. MT lets you maintain 50%PDT/MDT, capped gear haste and a 6-hit while spamming a moderately damaging WS along with a 20~50% retaliation rate. The more the monster hits the WAR the more the WAR hits right back.

[bobthetaru]

I want AFs and Merits already!!!

[Cljader1]

Over 100 replies and SE give us no comment on run. I just want SE to discuss there plans on how they are going to help run tank, and why is run so far behind one piece of equipment " the aegis shield."

[andotaco86]

Defense isn't how PLD reduces physical damage intake. Seriously ... my BLU can get 1200~1600 defense if I really want, it's not that big a deal as it'll still kick your a$$ due to it's base DMG.

PLD's reduce physical damage through a combination of uber shield blocks (Aegis or OChain) and the amazing DT gear that heavy DD can wear. It's there that RUN fails the hardest. Without a percentage based blocking mechanism nor access to the heavy gear, their effective physical defense is that of a THF or non-counter MNK. Basically non-existent.


This is imo the biggest issue with the class... The gear selection simply is terrible... They desperately need to be able to wear chain... Gear selection for a RUN from like 20-70 is a wasteland.

In all honestly, we probably should have gotten a rune knight instead of this fruity "rune fencer" garbage...

[Darthmaull]

Below 99 Run is not at it's best. Since I've gotten this job to 99 with merits, some delve gear and Senbaak, this job is different from it's earlier levels. I don't believe that SE even really cares how you play Run until 99. I can't wait to see what the AF holds and I'm curious to see if +188 parry allows Run to parry most physical attacks.

[dasva]

Well according to the jp dev posts seems blockrate for pld might blow hard so aegis might basically not block and testing with the +188 parrying has shown awesome rates for pld who has horrible parrying. Everyone can cap pdt easy so run might end up being able to mitigate physical dmg better than aegis pld if block rate tanks. So then looking at magic... even with merits and capped mdt aegis will take half as much from all magic as run does from 1 type.... but with a decent resist rate will actually average decently lower. And that's with vallation merits seeming to be bugged from the testing I did and being to low. So if blockrate on shields starts taking a dip pld might find itself out of a job

[nyheen]

Well according to the jp dev posts seems blockrate for pld might blow hard so aegis might basically not block and testing with the +188 parrying has shown awesome rates for pld who has horrible parrying. Everyone can cap pdt easy so run might end up being able to mitigate physical dmg better than aegis pld if block rate tanks. So then looking at magic... even with merits and capped mdt aegis will take half as much from all magic as run does from 1 type.... but with a decent resist rate will actually average decently lower. And that's with vallation merits seeming to be bugged from the testing I did and being to low. So if blockrate on shields starts taking a dip pld might find itself out of a job


why do i get the feeling a nerf gonna end up coming soon. i already called the sch 2 hour nerf.

about 2 months ago i called. looks like it will slowly happen

[Cljader1]

SE also said that high parry rates on the test server are do to bugs and parry rate will not be that high on live servers.

[dasva]

True but they might not have been referring to that. It might have been dual wields getting 2. Or they just didn't realize how much +skill on a weapon could bring everyones parry rate up. Regardless of what they meant there wasn't a cap

[dasva]

So the nice parry rate is still there despite something about parry rate being "fixed" I'm going to go with dual wielding led to people with like 800 parry skill and 100% parry rates lol. Because while there is nothing wrong with getting 500-600 and parrying 30-50% dual wielding like that would be horribly broken lol

[nyheen]

so with the new af, it looking really strong with the whole resiting all magic, and magic debuffs, and high eva, iam liking it!. now it starting to look fair with run AF, vs aegis pld.