This game has been ruined...

[Bboydastyck]

I'm sorry to say but this game has become very boring and almost pointless. So many things that we had back before Abyssea are not around anymore such as a simple 6 man group when leveling up. Now all there is to do is GoV and spend tons of hours in 2 different zones until you go to Abyssea and jump up to the 90s. I have tried to level up several jobs i KNOW i would have enjoyed leveling up in a group but now i cant even experience this. A good example is leveling my Paladin, im sitting in GoV as a DD not learning how to play my class and feeling like my job is just a title and nothing more.

Ive been playing this game since release off and on and it has changed to the point that I am disappointed more than having fun and i was obsessed with this game.

Dont get me wrong Abyssea and GoV were great ideas and allow players to enjoy the later levels more but whats the point of lv10-98, nothing really. I really did enjoy both of these added features but because of them FFXI will never be the same and i will never experience that feeling i had when i started getting into this game. Unfortunately and fortunately I will be moving on the FFXIV ARR, it may be pretty different and had a bad first release but it has potential and has came a long way since it first released.

Im going to miss you Final Fantasy 11

[Eric]

This is most definitely the wrong section of the forums that you're posting in.

EDIT: This was in the Localization team forums before it was moved.

[Bboydastyck]

I spent a while tryin to figure it out but the only feedback forum besides about the site was this one. Trying to delete since it is in the wrong forums but I cant figure out how.

[Elphy]

Now all there is to do is GoV and spend tons of hours in 2 different zones until you go to Abyssea and jump up to the 90s.

Part of me misses the 6 man groups simply because I met tons of ppl and made quite a few friends through them. Now if ppl are even present they seldom talk.

The only real issue I have with GoV pts is that there are only 18 spots open for ppl in each of the 3 lvl ranges that make up the GoV pts making it increasingly difficult to get into a pt. Lvl 50+ is even more difficult due to ppl joining the GoV in Bostaunieux Oubliette who are lvl 75-99 simply for skilling up.

It is true that these pts are not always full but during peak times there usually a good 5-6 ppl sitting with their flag up, sometimes for hrs. At least back in the day when you were on one of those hard to get pts jobs you could form your own or have multiple choices of camps. Now its so limited if we ever did get an influx of new players things would get quite tight.

But I don't see SE doing anything about this anytime soon since the ppl who do have to wait are comparatively small as is the influx of new and returning players

[Alhanelem]

The only thing I've found boring is waiting for the chance to be able to participate in new content. When I actually do get the chance to play it, it's fun. The problem is the content requires such high end sutff that if you didn't get skirmish/wildskeeper stuff when people were still doing it, you're in a bad spot because your only chance to participate is support role jobs e.g. whm sch brd cor.

[Venat]

I'm sorry to say but this game has become very boring and almost pointless. So many things that we had back before Abyssea are not around anymore such as a simple 6 man group when leveling up. Now all there is to do is GoV and spend tons of hours in 2 different zones until you go to Abyssea and jump up to the 90s. I have tried to level up several jobs i KNOW i would have enjoyed leveling up in a group but now i cant even experience this. A good example is leveling my Paladin, im sitting in GoV as a DD not learning how to play my class and feeling like my job is just a title and nothing more.

Ive been playing this game since release off and on and it has changed to the point that I am disappointed more than having fun and i was obsessed with this game.

Dont get me wrong Abyssea and GoV were great ideas and allow players to enjoy the later levels more but whats the point of lv10-98, nothing really. I really did enjoy both of these added features but because of them FFXI will never be the same and i will never experience that feeling i had when i started getting into this game. Unfortunately and fortunately I will be moving on the FFXIV ARR, it may be pretty different and had a bad first release but it has potential and has came a long way since it first released.

Im going to miss you Final Fantasy 11

You probably quit and came back. These adjustments to the game came longtime ago and your just complaining now...

Game has lost a ton of players over the years and slowly dieing. GoV & Abyssea is a way for players to find exp parties. Game has become alot more casual because of the lack of people playing the game.

XI isnt about exp parties anymore. Its all about getting equipment in endgame content. Game Lacks Skill up rates increase. Even with everyone becoming more casual with exping up very fast it ends up being 3-4 day grind toget skills to max. About 5-2 weeks of abyssea exp/level cap quests toget to 99 and adding more time grinding for skills.

Abyssea came around the time of XIV release so was highly likely XI was gonna lose a player base.

[Tickmeoff]

lol, came into the thread expecting a rant about how Delve has obsoleted 90% of the content in the game and is far too easy to complete given the quality of the rewards.

Instead, you're complaining about 3 year old content that nobody has a problem with. Bravo. You want 6 man parties? Make 5 friends and you guys can go grind IT++ mobs for a couple years to hit 99 on one job. I'm sure you'll be flooded with tells from people wanting to invite some "real pros" who really learned how to play their job well.

Being good at a job is about being willing to learn and put forth the effort it takes, not grinding exp mobs until you magically become a pro.

[nyheen]

I'm sorry to say but this game has become very boring and almost pointless. So many things that we had back before Abyssea are not around anymore such as a simple 6 man group when leveling up. Now all there is to do is GoV and spend tons of hours in 2 different zones until you go to Abyssea and jump up to the 90s. I have tried to level up several jobs i KNOW i would have enjoyed leveling up in a group but now i cant even experience this. A good example is leveling my Paladin, im sitting in GoV as a DD not learning how to play my class and feeling like my job is just a title and nothing more.

Ive been playing this game since release off and on and it has changed to the point that I am disappointed more than having fun and i was obsessed with this game.

Dont get me wrong Abyssea and GoV were great ideas and allow players to enjoy the later levels more but whats the point of lv10-98, nothing really. I really did enjoy both of these added features but because of them FFXI will never be the same and i will never experience that feeling i had when i started getting into this game. Unfortunately and fortunately I will be moving on the FFXIV ARR, it may be pretty different and had a bad first release but it has potential and has came a long way since it first released.

Im going to miss you Final Fantasy 11

i know how you feel, the game changed way to much now. but iam happy i got to experience all them fun times. them simple 6 man group you will never see again, rarely that happens. wont see much LFP. the whole low and mid lvl is dead. gone. just page burning on ep mobs.

guess this is the new generation of kids now and they seems to want leeching, page burning etc. and when you bring up anything pre abyssea they will rage,flame you. sadly this is how everything is now. well it time to pull out the rocking chair and tell our grand kids the story of the epic 100 chain pt or bibiki bay nightmares, or last man standing, when your pt about to wipe from a link but the 1 bad$$ comes to save the day!

[Randnum]

I think people often forget what the OP is reminding us of. We got a lot of bad with the good. It's quite possible to give us stuff that's good in the short term but is bad long term, and we got a lot of that over the years.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to needing to grind exp for as long as we did really early in the game, but now we don't really fight for exp at all in the old way so most of what happened that way is useless. Just like most of us don't enjoy being stuck at lower levels for large amounts of time, but Level Sync was a wonderful thing.

I for one was hoping that ARR, being ten years later and having all that data of what was good and bad for this game over the years, would be essentially this game's reboot (mechanics and item wise). And to some extent, it is, but somehow the things that made us feel, don't seem to be there yet.

I'll hope for it. This game's core systems are still top notch if you pay attention, it's the content designed around it recently that lets us down.

Anyone who finds themselves completely disagreeing with that, go read through the Assault Missions, you don't even have to do them, just read the strategies and the requirements and think about what that sort of content meant. You didn't even need 'the best' because doing it 'faster' didn't help, the success metric was different. You wouldn't have to shout for the 'strongest' jobs and take longer to make the party, just grab decent and intelligent people, go do the content, and win or lose.

I'd say I'm gonna miss that but I'm one of those people fortunate enough to have friends who like to do the same things.

[Saila]

It is ruined and i find it funny se trying to lure back the players that quit over R/M/E issue , i used to love this game from the day i started and now its getting worse and is not fun at all.

Camping shouts and trying to make a party to get KI just takes 2-5 hours which sucks, even VW shout died and couple people i know been shouting trying to finish empy 95-99 sooner or later HMP/Cinder/dross will be gone lol.

So sad so many awesome events have been neglected salvage/NNI etc.. Players i deal with are full of nonsense sadly its so damn hard to join delve event and its bullshit that that you cant get bivouacs to join Wildskeeper Reive -_-

Seems like they have no clue how to make this work successfully, whoever is in charge of this train wreck did a fine job to ruin my first and very last game makes it easy for me to quit it is not fun nor do they want to hear out players at all .

That how i truly feel about this game and forgive me english is my second language

[Rustic]

Far as it goes- people do tend to think in terms of "I must go do GoV in the three narrow areas in order to level up!".

Then they fail to realize that from 1-24, Dangruf Wadi is easy to solo, 24-35 Maze of Shak, 36-49 Delfkutt's, and so on...you don't HAVE to be in those three GoV zones to do things exp-wise. They're just the spots where people found it easiest to AFK-leech off groups wrecking the place, and honestly, demolishing a steady stream of weak EP's isn't tough to do, even solo. /DNC it and you're self-sufficient for the whole thing. People gravitate towards easymode.

The big flaw was when FFXI gave up on making the journey worth something, versus jumping to 99 and rendering expansions the sole method of entertainment.

[Miradel]

Being good at a job is about being willing to learn and put forth the effort it takes, not grinding exp mobs until you magically become a pro.

I think that used to be the definition of being good at a job. Today, 'being good at a job' is way more dependent on what gear you have than any capacity to learn and put forth effort.

Intelligence and skill are no longer part of the game. It's more about having the exact right gear set, the correct gear swapping macros, and the most powerful weapon.

It's left a lot of us behind. People whose linkshells dissolved, or people who don't play consistently, every day, all of the time. I took a break from the game for quite a while, and when I came back I was without a linkshell and without a support system to get me through content.

Without the old time party setup, you don't have opportunities to make social connections that could land you a new linkshell. If you don't have the right gear, or macros set up, you're replaced instead of helped.

[Duelle]

I'll hope for it. This game's core systems are still top notch if you pay attention, it's the content designed around it recently that lets us down.

Anyone who finds themselves completely disagreeing with that, go read through the Assault Missions, you don't even have to do them, just read the strategies and the requirements and think about what that sort of content meant. You didn't even need 'the best' because doing it 'faster' didn't help, the success metric was different. You wouldn't have to shout for the 'strongest' jobs and take longer to make the party, just grab decent and intelligent people, go do the content, and win or lose.I'm gonna disagree on that, seeing that I was that DRK that could not do assaults aside from excavation duty simply because I didn't want to be NIN/WAR/whatever else was "acceptable".

If you want to know what really hurt the game, it was the fact that they could not properly balance jobs. Stuff like BCNMs seem to be designed entirely around ideas without much mind being paid to job design and limitations, possible set ups and so on.

[Sarick]

It is ruined and i find it funny se trying to lure back the players that quit over R/M/E issue , i used to love this game from the day i started and now its getting worse and is not fun at all.

~~~

That how i truly feel about this game and forgive me english is my second language

Perfect song for this topic.


You Ruined Me. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3x2pNoqr0Q)


I've never heard this song before and I don't know the artist. It just fits how a lot of people feel.

[Ritsuka]

Part of me misses the 6 man groups simply because I met tons of ppl and made quite a few friends through them. Now if ppl are even present they seldom talk.

The only real issue I have with GoV pts is that there are only 18 spots open for ppl in each of the 3 lvl ranges that make up the GoV pts making it increasingly difficult to get into a pt. Lvl 50+ is even more difficult due to ppl joining the GoV in Bostaunieux Oubliette who are lvl 75-99 simply for skilling up.

It is true that these pts are not always full but during peak times there usually a good 5-6 ppl sitting with their flag up, sometimes for hrs. At least back in the day when you were on one of those hard to get pts jobs you could form your own or have multiple choices of camps. Now its so limited if we ever did get an influx of new players things would get quite tight.

But I don't see SE doing anything about this anytime soon since the ppl who do have to wait are comparatively small as is the influx of new and returning players


there is a very simple fix for that..... You know all those people who are not in a party sometimes its quite a few of them..... why don't you form a 6 man party because i know you can i seen the right jobs just with there flag up and form a party? But oh ya.... they rather wait to get into the "alliance" party instead. You only have yourself to blame if you want to party make one Its not hard i still do it.

[Randnum]

I'm gonna disagree on that, seeing that I was that DRK that could not do assaults aside from excavation duty simply because I didn't want to be NIN/WAR/whatever else was "acceptable".

If you want to know what really hurt the game, it was the fact that they could not properly balance jobs. Stuff like BCNMs seem to be designed entirely around ideas without much mind being paid to job design and limitations, possible set ups and so on.

I don't know who you knew, and I definitely won't disagree with this for a particular reason. When you read the 'optimal strategy' for any Assault, for example, there's usually this specific set of jobs that people consider 'the way to win' and a pickup group will try to get those, but this is part of human nature within the game, not necessarily the game.

But it's hard to find an Assault where going as, say, DRK, will make you lose (maybe a few of those heavily focused around killing Undead). It's hard to even find any where it would significantly affect your performance in clearing it. What it affects is your method, which was the point.

As a player, sometimes what is affected is your subjob, or the role you play. If people only see 'DD' on DRK, or you don't have /THF or /SAM for certain ones and no one can figure out how to adapt for you, then this happens.

You can't fix the tendency of people, especially less creative players, to do this, no matter how well you balance the jobs, because the jobs do different things in different ways. The content we have now, though, tends to make it far 'clearer'.

The next statement is pure opinion. I can only think of 3 assaults out of the 24 I've done multiple times (I won't speak on the ones I've only hacked at once or twice) where I would have any reason to go "DRK, no thx", but I might ask that DRK to focus on something other than swinging a big weapon around for max DPS.

Many players might then go 'well why take the DRK at all, that's what they do, take X which does Y better'. My point is that I don't have to. The content design would nearly never require me to do that to win, and making DRK 'better' in most ways would, on the other hand, never solve the problem of people who consider it required.

Unless your original point was 'every job should be approximately equally suited to every type of content/mission', you're really talking about human nature a bit more than their admittedly lackluster job balancing.

[JackDaniels]

I don't think this game has been ruined. Quite frankly it has made it wonderfully laid back, with exception to the highest tier content which you couldn't pay me to play until people get over themselves and let filthy casuals play with them. I'm having a lot of fun going through all of the expansions, and if I really want a challenge, I can easily force myself to try the content on a lower level job.

[RalphTheGalka]

Here's a little history lesson for the people who are going to say FoV/GoV/Abyssea/whatever-content-I-don't-like ruined the game. Back in the WoTG days well before Abyssea was announced, I was trying to level BRD. And many a days there were only 4 people total looking for group on my server during prime time, most of which were 70+ and only wanted a meritpo.

Those days weren't exactly fun times and I sure as heck am glad things are more opened up now. Things had to be changed, it was the only way this game was going to survive. There simply isn't the population to support mandatory 6 person groups for xp.

[JackDaniels]

Here's a little history lesson for the people who are going to say FoV/GoV/Abyssea/whatever-content-I-don't-like ruined the game. Back in the WoTG days well before Abyssea was announced, I was trying to level BRD. And many a days there were only 4 people total looking for group on my server during prime time, most of which were 70+ and only wanted a meritpo.

Those days weren't exactly fun times and I sure as heck am glad things are more opened up now. Things had to be changed, it was the only way this game was going to survive. There simply isn't the population to support mandatory 6 person groups for xp.

It's funny you say this because BRD was one of the most heavily sought after classes IIRC.

[Rustic]

Here's a little history lesson for the people who are going to say FoV/GoV/Abyssea/whatever-content-I-don't-like ruined the game. Back in the WoTG days well before Abyssea was announced, I was trying to level BRD. And many a days there were only 4 people total looking for group on my server during prime time, most of which were 70+ and only wanted a meritpo.

Those days weren't exactly fun times and I sure as heck am glad things are more opened up now. Things had to be changed, it was the only way this game was going to survive. There simply isn't the population to support mandatory 6 person groups for xp.

FoV/GoV wasn't the problem. The problem is that what you see now are people parked in Abyssea leeching exp 30-99, often still in their newbie gear. Because it literally doesn't matter, those groups can function with two active players and 16 leechers- and do. At least GoV alliances, you're needing people to go out there and wallop stuff and remain active. Abyssea exp alliances can be some of the most INactive experiences ever.

I heartily approve of GoV/FoV by comparison. It means even a single player can go out there and find something barely-EP to cycle pages on and gain exp at a respectable rate, and still encourages people to play together, rather than sit AFK while someone with a twoboxed healer spams Fell Cleave.

[Sarick]

Want to bring back the memories of the past take a look at this. Abbysea and GoV didn't ruin things check this Link (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=19095;emaPeICH). It falls on the developers and upper management to keep everyone happy. Sometimes they screw up in ways that make people quit.

[Rustic]

Want to bring back the memories of the past take a look at this. Abbysea and GoV didn't ruin things check this Link (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=19095;emaPeICH). It falls on the developers and upper management to keep everyone happy. Sometimes they screw up in ways that make people quit.

That has zero to do with long-term play issues or the 10-98 game, everything to do with poor customer service decisions.

[Duelle]

I don't know who you knew, and I definitely won't disagree with this for a particular reason. When you read the 'optimal strategy' for any Assault, for example, there's usually this specific set of jobs that people consider 'the way to win' and a pickup group will try to get those, but this is part of human nature within the game, not necessarily the game.I'll disagree, as player tendencies are determined entirely by game design and decisions made by the developers. The intentions may not have been there, but that's what ends up happening.

[Sarick]

That has zero to do with long-term play issues or the 10-98 game, everything to do with poor customer service decisions.

It has everything to do with it. SE is a single company with many branches. Someone is the boss of everything. Horrid mistakes where made in the past. If you recall it was the development staff who created RMT-powner (SP).

The whole point is "This isn't the first rodeo" (train wreck..) I posted that link as a reminder.

[Randnum]

I'll disagree, as player tendencies are determined entirely by game design and decisions made by the developers. The intentions may not have been there, but that's what ends up happening.

My point is that there will always be 'tendencies'. They can at best minimize them. I'm not sure what you are really saying?

What game design can you make where an interesting event can be overcome by 6 WHM just as efficiently as with 6 WAR? or even something more sane like 'without a dedicated tank'?

NIN is a simple example. What happened to NIN was not part of game design in any SANE way, it was completely a player thing. You give a class good evasion and moderate damage, and it isn't useful in large parties. Then someone realizes how to make that evasion optimized in usage and suddenly it is.

Just a basic question so I know where you are coming from... assuming NIN didn't have Utsu or that it was unreliable, what exactly would it be 'for'? The developers know, because they gave it the abilities, but the players don't accept that. If you change it, it's not NIN anymore and then people who would have liked it don't.

What did your DRK need, in your opinion, that would have made you able to assault? Is your answer 'more assaults that DRK are good in?'

This is actually the precise problem with endgame, it's just a matter of what job concept gets excluded.

[Duelle]

What game design can you make where an interesting event can be overcome by 6 WHM just as efficiently as with 6 WAR? or even something more sane like 'without a dedicated tank'?Now you're mentioning extremes. I wouldn't call for content that can be cleared by 6 of one job. I'm more in favor content where tank, DPS and heals can pull through at roughly the same pace and with similar results regardless of who is in each spot. While I realize that's something we'll never see in this game (too many jobs are designed around niches over possible roles), it is one of the few styles of gameplay that make sense to me.


NIN is a simple example. What happened to NIN was not part of game design in any SANE way, it was completely a player thing. You give a class good evasion and moderate damage, and it isn't useful in large parties. Then someone realizes how to make that evasion optimized in usage and suddenly it is.

Just a basic question so I know where you are coming from... assuming NIN didn't have Utsu or that it was unreliable, what exactly would it be 'for'? The developers know, because they gave it the abilities, but the players don't accept that. If you change it, it's not NIN anymore and then people who would have liked it don't.Depends on the aim of the developers. I don't care much for "uniqueness" and niches as I tend to focus on roles, so I'd opt for saying "DPS", especially if we're keeping job concept in mind.

Nerf evasion (or add DR past a certain point), add large hate shed properties to Utsusemi to make it an aggro dump while increasing the cooldown, focus on melee + throwing. The devs dropped the ball because they refused to meddle with methods for acquiring shuriken, aside from the "technical limitations" that prevented throwing weapon skills. Provided the latter is even true, I would have opted for instead giving NIN job abilites that focus on throwing and consume shuriken (stuff like Sange should come baseline to a NIN, not be merited into). Redesign enfeeble jutsu to be potent with very short durations and long cooldowns; a conceptual extension to spells like Flash and Stun that is more of an opportunity-creator during fights without outight replacing enfeebling magic.


What did your DRK need, in your opinion, that would have made you able to assault? Is your answer 'more assaults that DRK are good in?'

This is actually the precise problem with endgame, it's just a matter of what job concept gets excluded.Hence my original point of the devs not properly balancing the jobs. Sure, it is not the sole cause of the problem (two parts to the issue, job design and content design), but it is a large culprit.

[Volarione]

The game changed, OK, but it changed years ago its nothing new. If you can't take a few hours looking for a party how in the back did you survive per abbyssea when you could go days without a pt invite and it took years to level? If anything I feel the should just take level cap off all quests from vanilla ffxi and let people do then at pleasure.

[Randnum]

Depends on the aim of the developers. I don't care much for "uniqueness" and niches as I tend to focus on roles, so I'd opt for saying "DPS", especially if we're keeping job concept in mind.

Nerf evasion (or add DR past a certain point), add large hate shed properties to Utsusemi to make it an aggro dump while increasing the cooldown, focus on melee + throwing. The devs dropped the ball because they refused to meddle with methods for acquiring shuriken, aside from the "technical limitations" that prevented throwing weapon skills. Provided the latter is even true, I would have opted for instead giving NIN job abilites that focus on throwing and consume shuriken (stuff like Sange should come baseline to a NIN, not be merited into). Redesign enfeeble jutsu to be potent with very short durations and long cooldowns; a conceptual extension to spells like Flash and Stun that is more of an opportunity-creator during fights without outight replacing enfeebling magic.

Hence my original point of the devs not properly balancing the jobs. Sure, it is not the sole cause of the problem (two parts to the issue, job design and content design), but it is a large culprit.

Ok, then I'll bow out of this discussion, since your concept of what fun/balance is, is fundamentally different. I play NIN because it has evasion and does the specific things it does, for the most part. I don't actually care about the DPS, and I actually prefer jutsu over melee.

The answer you gave is my point, in a sense. What you'd do is change NIN more in line with what you see as 'useful', and you'd be right, but your 'useful' is based on the content you like and the mechanics you enjoy.

Most of our older content is exactly as described. Tank, DPS and healers all manage decently no matter who is in each slot. But there's always, always, always a 'most efficient' for each slot and that's what people want. 'Similar results' are only achievable when you give the classes more or less the same abilities with different names.

So I'll agree to disagree if you will. I say that job design wasn't an issue much in the older content due to better content design, you say job design is a large culprit in the problem.

[Numquam]

I'm sorry to say but this game has become very boring and almost pointless. So many things that we had back before Abyssea are not around anymore such as a simple 6 man group when leveling up. Now all there is to do is GoV and spend tons of hours in 2 different zones until you go to Abyssea and jump up to the 90s. I have tried to level up several jobs i KNOW i would have enjoyed leveling up in a group but now i cant even experience this. A good example is leveling my Paladin, im sitting in GoV as a DD not learning how to play my class and feeling like my job is just a title and nothing more.

Ive been playing this game since release off and on and it has changed to the point that I am disappointed more than having fun and i was obsessed with this game.

Dont get me wrong Abyssea and GoV were great ideas and allow players to enjoy the later levels more but whats the point of lv10-98, nothing really. I really did enjoy both of these added features but because of them FFXI will never be the same and i will never experience that feeling i had when i started getting into this game. Unfortunately and fortunately I will be moving on the FFXIV ARR, it may be pretty different and had a bad first release but it has potential and has came a long way since it first released.

Im going to miss you Final Fantasy 11

Please, go away.

[Duelle]

Ok, then I'll bow out of this discussion, since your concept of what fun/balance is, is fundamentally different. I play NIN because it has evasion and does the specific things it does, for the most part. I don't actually care about the DPS, and I actually prefer jutsu over melee.Fair enough. You asked a question and I chose to give an honest answer.

The answer you gave is my point, in a sense. What you'd do is change NIN more in line with what you see as 'useful', and you'd be right, but your 'useful' is based on the content you like and the mechanics you enjoy.More like effects that I see the job having on other jobs that won't upset other things. NIN as it was introduced changed more about the game than most people realize, affecting overall survivability and encounter design while trivializing already-existing threats (mobs with high damage nukes/TP attacks that would tear a PLD to pieces while a NIN would laugh at them because of Utsusemi). My biggest gripe was how it became "required" for everything.

Most of our older content is exactly as described. Tank, DPS and healers all manage decently no matter who is in each slot. But there's always, always, always a 'most efficient' for each slot and that's what people want. 'Similar results' are only achievable when you give the classes more or less the same abilities with different names.This is where the point of class balance got lost. If a "best" set up exists then either class balance, content balance or both are lacking. Ideally BST, PUP, WAR, SAM, and MNK would be interchangable in a DPS slot with very minimal (if any) impact on raid performance and chances on success. And this is on a mass scale, not "got into the group as <insert your favorite loljob> because I"m friends with the Alliance leader".

I'll now drop this topic and go on my merry way.

[Screamer]

Here's a little history lesson for the people who are going to say FoV/GoV/Abyssea/whatever-content-I-don't-like ruined the game. Back in the WoTG days well before Abyssea was announced, I was trying to level BRD. And many a days there were only 4 people total looking for group on my server during prime time, most of which were 70+ and only wanted a meritpo.

Those days weren't exactly fun times and I sure as heck am glad things are more opened up now. Things had to be changed, it was the only way this game was going to survive. There simply isn't the population to support mandatory 6 person groups for xp.
Heres another history lesson tho.... Most pple who talk about craving the good ol' days are talking well before the craze of merit pts became the norm >.> for us, WoTG is relatively new still (hell thats when i quit before). Its all about the zilart and promathia days lol

Makes me realize tho, that most pple who are supporters of the current method either came in when it was already there, or started playing just a bit before this crappy system got introduced.

To OP: You cant preach to someone whos never experienced your fun :(

[SpankWustler]

I guess rose-tinted glasses are in this season. Do you guys go for the aviator style, or are the chunky Buddy Holly frames more your speed?

[Laraul]

Heres another history lesson tho.... Most pple who talk about craving the good ol' days are talking well before the craze of merit pts became the norm >.> for us, WoTG is relatively new still (hell thats when i quit before). Its all about the zilart and promathia days lol.

You must have been one of those players who trained an Exoray to the entrance of Crawler's Nest, only to let it wander back thru the chamber of exp parties. It was a lot less fun to those of us in those parties.

[Randnum]

You must have been one of those players who trained an Exoray to the entrance of Crawler's Nest, only to let it wander back thru the chamber of exp parties. It was a lot less fun to those of us in those parties.

Pointing out the 'bad parts of an era' does not negate the good parts, nor vice versa.

[Lithera]

I don't think anyone reaaly wants the old way back for xp. Here is how it was back then.

Drg lfping to Drk lfp: so, how long has it been for you?
Drk: one week, you?
Drg: >.<;;

Dunes parties: yay we have a healer now that's on the ship from Mhaura.. God damn it anyone else see a whm or got a friend who can pl us?

Xp party can I have it? - any lv 17-19

Qufim party: hey get on the ice it's night!
New person to area: what?! Oh shit where did those banshee come from?
Party: damn it and that was our replacement whm. Oh, nice that guy fishing isn't a bot! Whoo we're saved!

Jungle party to party camping ontop of em: oh hey could you um move your mandy over so it doesn't zzzzzzz.
Tank of party: hey can I get a cure?! Oh gfd their mandy slept the zzzzz

Then there were the times you finally found a 6th just to wait forever for them to get to kazham to find out they don't have a pass for the airship. Only to get told by someone else they gotta go just as the 6th is almost there. Thus more time looking for someone to replace the dude who's leaving and heaven forbid anyone in any party agrona gob that they couldn't take on. Because that ment any party that is in its way to the zone line or back to where it's spawn was ment everyone else had to zone too.
Also heaven forbid your a Smn who wants to use an avatar in a jungle party. You got shouts to please stop using said avatar because it was lagging other parties. Same kind of stuff happened in crawlers with the gobs but in crawlers it was hitting a lizzard instead or agroing a water ele in the basement.

Oh and who wants to be mpked by bsts just because you're trying to party in the basement of the citadel? I know I don't.
I liked it when the fov books came out and lv sync came about. No more having to look for 5 people who were 1-2 lvs within yours. 3 levels if the lowest person was close to leveling. Fighting over camping spots because someone in your party can't access this or that zone or you don't know the few places the Japanese go to xp at when the hot places are crowded.

[Omegablue]

I don't think anyone reaaly wants the old way back for xp. Here is how it was back then.

Drg lfping to Drk lfp: so, how long has it been for you?
Drk: one week, you?
Drg: >.<;;

Dunes parties: yay we have a healer now that's on the ship from Mhaura.. God damn it anyone else see a whm or got a friend who can pl us?

Xp party can I have it? - any lv 17-19

Qufim party: hey get on the ice it's night!
New person to area: what?! Oh shit where did those banshee come from?
Party: damn it and that was our replacement whm. Oh, nice that guy fishing isn't a bot! Whoo we're saved!

Jungle party to party camping ontop of em: oh hey could you um move your mandy over so it doesn't zzzzzzz.
Tank of party: hey can I get a cure?! Oh gfd their mandy slept the zzzzz

Then there were the times you finally found a 6th just to wait forever for them to get to kazham to find out they don't have a pass for the airship. Only to get told by someone else they gotta go just as the 6th is almost there. Thus more time looking for someone to replace the dude who's leaving and heaven forbid anyone in any party agrona gob that they couldn't take on. Because that ment any party that is in its way to the zone line or back to where it's spawn was ment everyone else had to zone too.
Also heaven forbid your a Smn who wants to use an avatar in a jungle party. You got shouts to please stop using said avatar because it was lagging other parties. Same kind of stuff happened in crawlers with the gobs but in crawlers it was hitting a lizzard instead or agroing a water ele in the basement.

Oh and who wants to be mpked by bsts just because you're trying to party in the basement of the citadel? I know I don't.
I liked it when the fov books came out and lv sync came about. No more having to look for 5 people who were 1-2 lvs within yours. 3 levels if the lowest person was close to leveling. Fighting over camping spots because someone in your party can't access this or that zone or you don't know the few places the Japanese go to xp at when the hot places are crowded.


I've joked and joshed with people a hell of a lot more since FoV, Level sync, GoV, Abyssea alliances have come about. It's leisurely and fun nowadays.

I leveled RDM, WHM, DRK, SAM, NIN, WAR, PLD, BLM all under the old way in the bad days.

It sucked for all those reasons you listed. The game and all the rest is about the journey. Not the end. The thing with FFXI was people made exping the journey because it was tedious. The journey was hanging with friends and completing the content, the fellowship you had. We've been made to trade in the grind for exp and gear to just a gear grind. I'll take that over forever to get a job to sub level and forever again to get it to endgame. And let's not forget the amount of dumbasses that still made it to endgame back then. Starcade for instance. The only thing that has changed is we chopped off half the grind. That's a win.

[macross]

Do yourself a favor and get a delve weapon, before you quit. Once you actualy have one and are killing stuff with it, then quit or stay up to you!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Pointing out the 'bad parts of an era' does not negate the good parts, nor vice versa.They were pointing out a good part.

[Camiie]

Mr. OP, if you and the apparent multitudes of people who like old-school 6-man XP parties got together you could still have that experience if you really wanted. The dunes, Qufim, the jungles, etc. are still there. Pages, XP rings, and even Abyssea are totally optional. SE and the rest of us don't need to change a thing for you to have it your way. YOU and those who feel the same need to step up and DIY.

[Hayward]

If the game's been ruined, then the players (past and current) ruined it by demanding only the absolute best in everything. From EXP parties on up, players and the endgamer forum they frequent caused people to lose their enjoyment of the game by demanding X jobs and Y set of equipment or Z spells (if they invited a mage at all) at every level.

You've seen the talking points an absurd amount of times:

*"Level a real job. <insert job here> isn't efficient in parties"
*"<insert job here> is worthless without <insert nigh impossible to get weapon/armor here>"
*"If this party can't get X amount of EXP/hr, I'm out of here"

The BS goes on and on. How many DRGs, PUPs, SMNs, and other jobs have been lost to these elitist jags?

Now we have Delve endgamers taking things to a whole new low.

[Oakrest]

If the game's been ruined, then the players (past and current) ruined it by demanding only the absolute best in everything.


You've seen the talking points an absurd amount of times:

*"Level a real job. <insert job here> isn't efficient in parties"
*"<insert job here> is worthless without <insert nigh impossible to get weapon/armor here>"


You do realize that's not the players fault, but a product of bad game design?

[fillerbunny9]

Here's a little history lesson for the people who are going to say FoV/GoV/Abyssea/whatever-content-I-don't-like ruined the game. Back in the WoTG days well before Abyssea was announced, I was trying to level BRD. And many a days there were only 4 people total looking for group on my server during prime time, most of which were 70+ and only wanted a meritpo.

Those days weren't exactly fun times and I sure as heck am glad things are more opened up now. Things had to be changed, it was the only way this game was going to survive. There simply isn't the population to support mandatory 6 person groups for xp.

funny, I levelled RDM in the days of WotG and I would log in to tells for a party. after I was done XPing for the day and I needed to sell off trash before bed, I would have to go /anon because I would get tells without even having my flag up. seems to me that an in demand job like Bard should have had no issues getting XP. perhaps the problem wasn't your server.

[Rustic]

funny, I levelled RDM in the days of WotG and I would log in to tells for a party. after I was done XPing for the day and I needed to sell off trash before bed, I would have to go /anon because I would get tells without even having my flag up. seems to me that an in demand job like Bard should have had no issues getting XP. perhaps the problem wasn't your server.

He's got a point there. In the day, BRD and RDM were "princess" jobs- you had to screw up pretty good to NOT be wanted in PT's on a regular basis.

[Hayward]

G
funny, I levelled RDM in the days of WotG and I would log in to tells for a party. after I was done XPing for the day and I needed to sell off trash before bed, I would have to go /anon because I would get tells without even having my flag up. seems to me that an in demand job like Bard should have had no issues getting XP. perhaps the problem wasn't your server.

*yawn* You'd have impressed me if you mentioned BLM, SMN, BST, or PUP. As it stands, *yawn*.

[Hayward]

You do realize that's not the players fault, but a product of bad game design?

Dodge responsibility all you like but S-E isn't pointing a gun at these endgamers' heads, telling them to exclude 66~75% of the available jobs in the game. No, these folks needed 20-30K EXP/hr yesterday or the party was a failure (BTW, these are the same people complaining about the speed of EXP in Abyssea. Figure that).

The forum that shall not be named has had its share of responsibility for the state of FFXI before and after Abyssea.

[RalphTheGalka]

funny, I levelled RDM in the days of WotG and I would log in to tells for a party. after I was done XPing for the day and I needed to sell off trash before bed, I would have to go /anon because I would get tells without even having my flag up. seems to me that an in demand job like Bard should have had no issues getting XP. perhaps the problem wasn't your server.

Can't get invited into parties that don't exist. My point is that the xp scene on Carbuncle was pretty dead and there often weren't enough people to form one.

[Karbuncle]

Dodge responsibility all you like but S-E isn't pointing a gun at these endgamers' heads, telling them to exclude 66~75% of the available jobs in the game. No, these folks needed 20-30K EXP/hr yesterday or the party was a failure (BTW, these are the same people complaining about the speed of EXP in Abyssea. Figure that).

The forum that shall not be named has had its share of responsibility for the state of FFXI before and after Abyssea.

I'm sorry, But yes, They are holding the gun to our heads with some of this stuff. they design events that are impossible or very very improbable without the use of certain equipment, and no one likes wasting time. Events like NNI were already very luck based, without the best items, it was almost impossible to the point of useless to hit floor 100.

Delve and Skirmish further push this, as the are intentionally designed to be for the best, so while some people can get away with subpar, people don't like wasting time, and seeing how its their life, they have the right to do this.

Now, that said, its clear SE isn't holding the gun on all events, But on a few there are just no options for less than best if you wish to win. Something like Delve farming could invite a sub-par DD or two and still be successful, but again, I don't comprehend nor understand the hatred or butthurt at people who chose efficiency, its the 1-2 hours of their life being spent, I'm sure they want to spend it effectively, and you spend yours how you want.

If anythings killing the game its the attrocious "Gimme everything!" players who think that if you don't spoon feed them good gear you're an elitist prick, and therfor refuse to get better at anything because they'll always have something to scapegoat the blame for. Is this you? I really don't know, and am not accusing you of such, just the type of people i feel ruin or kill this game... its not the lack of gear, its the attitude problem.

[Falseliberty]

Sorry OP game is better now not worse.
I don't miss waiting 3 weeks for an invite only not to catch it because I went to the bathroom ( true story )

[Kojo]

Sorry OP game is better now not worse.
I don't miss waiting 3 weeks for an invite only not to catch it because I went to the bathroom ( true story )

I know that feel.



He's got a point there. In the day, BRD and RDM were "princess" jobs- you had to screw up pretty good to NOT be wanted in PT's on a regular basis.

In the ToAU and WotG days, only reason we wouldn't invite a certain BRD would be bad attitude or something, like one telling my friend that he hopes his family dies in a fire. (True Story, too.)

[fillerbunny9]

G

*yawn* You'd have impressed me if you mentioned BLM, SMN, BST, or PUP. As it stands, *yawn*.

if you needed a party to level BST you were doing it wrong. there were Pudding-burns going up until the level cap. PUP was levelled to ~62 in parties before I started soloing. SMN you were levelling in your level 18 Sync astral burns (and turning a profit as well) but hey, I was levelling jobs up in normal parties all the way until Abyssea, so what the hell do I know.

[Oakrest]

Dodge responsibility all you like but S-E isn't pointing a gun at these endgamers' heads, telling them to exclude 66~75% of the available jobs in the game. No, these folks needed 20-30K EXP/hr yesterday or the party was a failure (BTW, these are the same people complaining about the speed of EXP in Abyssea. Figure that).

The forum that shall not be named has had its share of responsibility for the state of FFXI before and after Abyssea.

That's a bit ironic, and extreme - I don't think any guns are involved, except maybe with the Corsairs'. If gamers are making the decision to exclude other players based on the ability to complete content via job-specific advantages, why not? Doing stuff the hard way is only fun for so long. Why would you want to complete content slower, with more risk for failure? Your response is self-defeating.

Moreover, I always try to play to be inclusive of all players and jobs. The reality is that some things can't be done with certain setups. You're not gonna beat floor 100 on NNI with 6 white mages, that's not the players fault.

[nyheen]

Sorry OP game is better now not worse.
I don't miss waiting 3 weeks for an invite only not to catch it because I went to the bathroom ( true story )

and who fault is that for waiting hours and hours for invite and not even trying to start your own party?

[detlef]

It's not that easy. You'd still be competing with every other PT for the same vital support and healing jobs except you have the added disadvantage of being whatever the unpopular job of that day is.

[Omegablue]

and who fault is that for waiting hours and hours for invite and not even trying to start your own party?

Considering that the supply of tanks and healers was far outweighed by DD/support/other and before level sync you had to be in a small level range to fairly get exp, it was the norm. That's why 75 used to be a big milestone. Unless you or a friend or both filled the core job(s) for a party or someone pl'ed you making a sea all showed you 2 DD's one afk, a rng 2 level too high and no healers

[Volarione]

and who fault is that for waiting hours and hours for invite and not even trying to start your own party?

Do you remember how hard it was to find and keep healers and tanks? I loved the old parties but leveling sucked especially as a drg. I remember making parties and waiting hours for healers to get to us in yhutunga only to get 5 kills in before they dced or left for RL reasons. Then there where no more whom or even rdm seeking. Wasted nights where the norm.

[nyheen]

dont know about you guys but around that time before the level sync it was possible to make lot of different odd pts and make it work well. sure pld and nin was mostly the main tanks & whm rdm was healers but it was lot others around as well. the pts i used to have was (war def gear),war, (smn me), blu rng blm. wars duo tank while the others blu blm smn mostly main heal. it better then waiting for hours for no exp and it was ok pt in Bibiki Bay 65+ or so i think.

these are some sets up i can remember back in the day
full smn pt on bombs in Uleguerand Range
mnk tank, thf,thf X3 drgs, 60+ Bhaflau Thickets birds
X5 rng, smn. King Ranperre's Tomb bats, 55+ i think
rdm tank, blu thf bst smn brd. GC 46+ down hole.

etc many many set up. had sam tanks, dnc tanks pup tanks or healers, blu healers, list goes on. and had lot of fun doing it. sometimes you need to think outside the box and be creative.

[Omegablue]

dont know about you guys but around that time before the level sync it was possible to make lot of different odd pts and make it work well. sure pld and nin was mostly the main tanks & whm rdm was healers but it was lot others around as well. the pts i used to have was (war def gear),war, (smn me), blu rng blm. wars duo tank while the others blu blm smn mostly main heal. it better then waiting for hours for no exp and it was ok pt in Bibiki Bay 65+ or so i think.

these are some sets up i can remember back in the day
full smn pt on bombs in Uleguerand Range
mnk tank, thf,thf X3 drgs, 60+ Bhaflau Thickets birds
X5 rng, smn. King Ranperre's Tomb bats, 55+ i think
rdm tank, blu thf bst smn brd. GC 46+ down hole.

etc many many set up. had sam tanks, dnc tanks pup tanks or healers, blu healers, list goes on. and had lot of fun doing it. sometimes you need to think outside the box and be creative.


And you're really stretching. The fact is the old way was inefficient and pretty stagnant. Unless you had a static waiting/shouting/searching for hours was more often than not the standard. This isn't a dick wagging contest. This is something you can pick any ffxi forum at any point before lvl sync and find the complaints, the stories, and the dramedy.

[nyheen]

And you're really stretching. The fact is the old way was inefficient and pretty stagnant. Unless you had a static waiting/shouting/searching for hours was more often than not the standard. This isn't a dick wagging contest. This is something you can pick any ffxi forum at any point before lvl sync and find the complaints, the stories, and the dramedy.

ok i dont get what you trying to say since i was only replying to the person talking about LFP all day back then and not aleast trying to start one. of course the old exp way before, exp boost, level sync, pages etc was slower. it not anymore with all the updates, it just people think 18/18 pt spamming 3 exp mobs is faster vs a 3-6 pt spamming 100-300+ exp mobs + pages. with double exp weekend coming up it will be way faster. but i forgot this is the new generation of kids

[Hawklaser]

ok i dont get what you trying to say since i was only replying to the person talking about LFP all day back then and not aleast trying to start one. of course the old exp way before, exp boost, level sync, pages etc was slower. it not anymore with all the updates, it just people think 18/18 pt spamming 3 exp mobs is faster vs a 3-6 pt spamming 100-300+ exp mobs + pages. with double exp weekend coming up it will be way faster. but i forgot this is the new generation of kids

Who's to say they didn't try starting their own parties a few times? Though I know when I tried forming my own parties, if I could not get a healer and tank fairly quick, would put up a /seacom and flag before going to go farm something, sure beat sitting in town doing nothing.

[Rustic]

Considering that the supply of tanks and healers was far outweighed by DD/support/other and before level sync you had to be in a small level range to fairly get exp, it was the norm. That's why 75 used to be a big milestone. Unless you or a friend or both filled the core job(s) for a party or someone pl'ed you making a sea all showed you 2 DD's one afk, a rng 2 level too high and no healers

Yep. Pre level-sync + FoV/GoV, the party system rapidly broke down as level increased and population of that level decreased. Of course, then you had Abyssea and suddenly, people could easily do nothing at all for 69 levels of cleave leeching- at least your average GoV alliance tends to enjoy taking any leechers and dumping them in the nearest dark hole till they homepoint from being MPK'd.

It's a case where they "cured" the problem so strongly the patient was as bad off from the side effects of the treatment as they were the disease in the first place.