Trials of the Magians and casual players.

[MakkotoParinne]

As with my other thread concerning Walk of Echoes weapons, I have a few concerns and questions regarding Trials of the Magians and the casual playerbase.

It's all well and good that the super weapons of the expansion have come to fruition, and there are plans to increase R/M/E weapons in damage and practicality. These changes will keep many people happy and have goals to strive for in the new content.

However, there are also many people who do not have R/M/E to start with and instead focus on Trials of the Magians in their spare time. With the implementation of the new weapons that completely and utterly outclass Trials of the Magians, and with R/M/E getting upgraded, what will become of the Trials of the Magians system and weapons?

Surely this system was not implemented to be unused in such a short amount of time. Will all of the gil and time spent here as well be discarded in favor of the Adoulin expansion rewards? I'm curious to see if Trials of the Magians will have new trials added to keep the content relevant as a lower difficulty-lower tier reward option for those who don't have the time or desire to make a R/M/E weapon or try their luck in Delve/Skirmish without one.

Casual players like to set goals, too. I thought that's why TotM was implemented in the first place, so everyone could have something they can grind every day and accomplish over time.

Thank you for reading.

[solodragon1984]

I Agree cause i work in real life and only get a chance to play AFTER 5pm cst sometimes late as 8 and I don't MEGA amount of time to do dyna for JUST 1 base weapon which i have to get Coins and Mat.s just to upgrade it and then i'll have to be bound by the timer for the goblin NPC for weapon and for mythic same thing not enough time to farm Ny. Isle or salvage and ein. and need TON of gil to buy alex. for quest to get fully opened mythic base weapon and Empy. just not doable with out ppl but most people don't want to help if they dont get exact same item you are hunting for like Sobek Skin for example and those resting pop NM are even worse to TRY to do solo cause it is near impossible to do w/o twilight set BUT same as above need gil and time for those.. yes few LS sell the drops but for gil for a FREE ITEM that isn't for sure to get your drop and i tried to do it for scythe back when was worth it and didnt get drop and they charged me *sigh* which i asked and they said pay first and if no drop i'll get gil bk but they stiffed me and i reported it a GM and they didnt do nothing saying it wasn't affect by the ToS *growl*

sorry for long winded post bad at . and ! placements lol
and thanks for letting me rant

[MakkotoParinne]

I implore anyone who supports this idea to like my first post and leave a positive comment. Casual players need their share of attention, too.

[Duelle]

I'll support this thread, but I think the issue is more the fact that ToTM doesn't seem to tie well to Adoulin content, and limiting it to Abyssea would be odd.

[Zagen]

Casual gamers don't exist in a MMO, despite you(general) thinking you're a "casual gamer" you aren't, you may not have as much play time as others but that doesn't make you a casual gamer. Look at the complexity of any casual game and you'll see they are nothing like MMORPGs.

Okay that aside I get that TotM weapons were supposed to be targeted at players who wanted good weapons without having to do things that were perceived as hard. However they screwed up in that design. The reality is when you compare any TotM path to a Relic post Dynamis changes they are actually harder for players with limited playtime. TotM requires fixed times a player must be on (day/weather/NM respawns) and Relics only require being able to go into Dynamis, then killing NMs that are popped not on a timer, and then killing regular monsters with 0 restraint on time. Oh and for those who're going to argue that TotM came out before Dynamis was changed then a simple question; Why weren't TotM adjusted to keep them the easiest weapons to make? The answer is either they didn't care or they never intended them to be anything more than a time sink.

As to them becoming useless already, I'm gonna have to contact a GM because I haven't gotten all the Delve weapons in my delivery box yet. They're a stop gap or stepping stone just like every other piece of gear has been in the game. In some cases some of them are still better.

If TotM remain relevant until the end of FFXI what's the point in designing any other weapons?

[Sarick]

Casual gamers don't exist in a MMO, despite you(general) thinking you're a "casual gamer" you aren't, you may not have as much play time as others but that doesn't make you a casual gamer. Look at the complexity of any casual game and you'll see they are nothing like MMORPGs.

Poor choice. Why? The players that stay aren't casual, the players that leave might have been. In all most people fail to realize that MMORPGS are more of glorified chat programs with a gaming environment attached to it. Look at it this way, the hardcore people think they earned something and attribute these achievements to them being successful. Since the developers want to push gear to only a select few that are hardcore we lose a majority that will never be.

It just I'm heartened thinking about how so little people recognize the flaws in the system. It's not fun anymore because people are selfish and greedy. The whole category for getting the M/R/E weapons revolved around selfish desire to get ahead in a world full of PIXELS. What do we have now is more new weapons and armors with lavish capabilities.

The Mog weapon trials where supposed to be useful for anyone wanting decent weapons. Now they aren't even decent in comparison. I agree with the OP these should be upgraded to decent grades. Right now there aren't many new players joining and the ones that do rarely stay more then a few months. There is just to much to do and not enough reason for the HARDCORE players to notice anyone but themselves. This leaves the players who are limited to casuial play no reason to really stay.

After all only the gil cheaters (people who abuse the system to make massive amounts of money) and 10+ hours a day hardcore are allowed to really participate in the popular events. The others who would be considered casual might as well just F-off and quit because they're not worthy of the same level of gaming entertainment. This is fact. It's why I think mog weapons getting left behind is a bad developer choice. Without this alternative scaling players are forced to deal with the negative nature of what ruins the game for casuals.

[Gippo]

Stop bellyaching. Shit's not hard.

Step 1. Level whm or brd if applicable
Step 2. Buy Seekers of Adoulin if necessary.
Step 3. Join the first shout you see for a T4/T5 to get KI
Step 4. Sing or cure.
Step 5. Wait for someone to shout for a delve farming pt.
Step 6. Sing or cure.
Step 7. Get 30,000 points
Step 8. Buy a weapon you like
Step 9. Level that job.
Step 10. Forget you cared about Magian Trials.

[Kristal]

Trial of the Magians could easily be continued with moogles in Adoulin.
Oxyuranis (DMG:+34 Delay:+91 STR+11 Attack+22) becomes Oxyuranis +3 (DMG:+94 Delay:+91 STR+15 Attack+25) for example.

I expect these trials to appear with the same update that continues the REMC trials. Why did you think those precious REM weapons aren't upgraded yet? They got to make trials for ALL TOM weapons!

[Umichi]

Stop bellyaching. Shit's not hard.

Step 1. Level whm or brd if applicable
Step 2. Buy Seekers of Adoulin if necessary.
Step 3. Join the first shout you see for a T4/T5 to get KI
Step 4. Sing or cure.
Step 5. Wait for someone to shout for a delve farming pt.
Step 6. Sing or cure.
Step 7. Get 30,000 points
Step 8. Buy a weapon you like
Step 9. Level that job.
Step 10. Forget you cared about Magian Trials.



except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

[Zagen]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

Ok new set of steps for those who don't believe in "the ends justify the means" type of logic.

Step 1: Stay on whatever job you want.
Step 2: Research T4/5 Delve NMs (lots of info already out there about the gimmicks and setups on how to take them down).
Step 3: Shout for a group based on research done in Step 2.
Step 4: Go fight said monster for the relevant KI.
Step 5: Research Delve Fracture farming (not much to learn pretty much merit style fighting with a PLD or 2 holding NMs.
Step 6: Build your Delve Weapons.

Congrats you now have the new time sink weapons that are even easier to make than TotM because you don't have to wait for NMs to spawn/respawn (yay pop/instance NMs for the KIs), you don't have to wait for the right time of day (in game), and you definitely don't have to wait for the right of the year (in game) to ensure plentiful weather you want. Don't even have to kill hundreds to thousands of monsters as you could in theory just by all your airlixirs/plasm (via eating pop items).

Repeat the steps above with T1,2, or 3 Delve NMs and you'll also unlock the Delve armors.

The game is broken because people who don't want to conform to the player established "cookie cutter" setups are too damn lazy to lead so they avoid conformity and increase diversity.

[Sarick]

Ok new set of steps for those who don't believe in "the ends justify the means" type of logic.

Step 1: Stay on whatever job you want.
Step 2: Research T4/5 Delve NMs (lots of info already out there about the gimmicks and setups on how to take them down).
Step 3: Shout for a group based on research done in Step 2.
Step 4: Go fight said monster for the relevant KI.
Step 5: Research Delve Fracture farming (not much to learn pretty much merit style fighting with a PLD or 2 holding NMs.
Step 6: Build your Delve Weapons.


Repeat the steps above with T1,2, or 3 Delve NMs and you'll also unlock the Delve armors.

The game is broken because people who don't want to conform to the player established "cookie cutter" setups are too damn lazy to lead so they avoid conformity and increase diversity.

No you are hardcore, the stuff people are asking about is for casual. Hardcore people don't give a squats arse for players that want to advance in their own way. Just reading your comment proves my point. You explaining in detail how to be a hardcore player. It then follows up by proving my point that hardcore players don't give a crap. You think that people are lazy. You think things are easy. In your oppion if they follow a the HARDCORE STRATEGY they can get the best crap.

Well, looks like you nailed it. Your the poster child for the exact attitude I'm talking about. You have the time, leadership (ability to make good groups) and planning (hardcore strategy) to reach those goals. In your opinion everyone who plays these games has the same privileged attributes as yourself. The underdogs who don't invest dedication into a GAME aren't doing ENOUGH to become decent pixels.

1. Casual players log on for a few hours to relax then quit. When was the last time an alliance of players gathered in less then 30 min?

2. Casual players don't create large parties/alliances they join them or do low man stuff with friends.

3. The new stuff you need pure man power to really get ahead. To get ahead you also need good gear, expert skill and a some reputation as a player. Casual players don't have any of this crap. In fact it's because of this lack of crap the hardcore don't even want these players on their team. They even don't want to join them if they shout for help. That's how bad it is for some players. Your strategy is nothing less then stop being casual if you want included in anything fun.

The trails could be done solo on the players own time. Not have to deal with the groups that require lavish setups to get a party slot. The mog trials had something unique about it that when multiple players where hunting something like the elemental weapons players where ask to team up not as a requirement but for mutual gain. People didn't care unless someone wanted to totally leech. It wasn't a requirement to be hardcore people just had fun achieving a mutual goal.

People who shout for alliances most do so for personal gain. Unlike people running into each other and teaming up in a frendly setting they choose who when, what etc these players are. From your perspective everything you listed is easy prey. It's obvious you can't fathom the life of a real casual player. In your eyes anyone who isn't hardcore is just F'lippn lazy. Based on the comments made by a few of these post it just proves how disassociated some core players are with the casual players.


THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!

The Mog trials where for casuals because most of them could be completed without large groups. Players could create a weapon in a few days on their own time. SURE there where things like weather was a minor time sync sink (setback). These things piled in comparison to the monopoly the hardcore players have on end game events. If they wanted to build a weapon they didn't need to wait in town for shouts only to be excluded from some guy that says (do you have X weapon or X job and uber gear) nvm sorry we are full.

Hardcore players simply can't fathom the difference of game play for casual players. The developers also lost track of this play style when they left older content like mog trails behind. The only way to get decent gear from this point on is to deal with the hardcore aspect. I'm not saying the BEST gear I'm saying decent. When you look at the stat differences of casual trial weapons vs dedicated (hardcore) player weapons they are no longer a 10%-20% difference. We now have weapons that are double and triple the strength of previous uber gear!

The developer proposed a way to increase the power or R/M/E stuff at the cost of making it slightly weaker but requiring a near full completion (which isn't worth it) to upgrade. Having this cancer in the game creates a dilemma for mog trial weapons. You can't have the mog trail weapons surpass the R/M/E stats that'd be wrong! It'd infurate me and others who build those weapons if easy mode weapons where created to surpass them.

The whole GEAR path was a mistake! When new weapons where created that surpassed uber gear from the past it placed an invisible cap on the trial weapons. The mog trial weapon/armor stats are bottle necked by the older hardcore RME weapons. These weapons are supposed to superceed them in relevance. The problem that exist is a result of poor development planning.

The trial weapons can't be upgraded to decent because the RME gear is vastly inferior to the new gear. Since the old RME gear can't be upgraded without significant resources/time/effort it holds back the casual versions being upgraded to decent.

What we have is a check-mate development blunder that punishes casual players. The OLD RME weapons to be comparable need upgraded with a lot of blood sweat and tears. The trial mog weapons that are inferior to RME weapons (super pathetic) simply can't outrank the non-upgraded RME versions without pissing everyone off who made RME versions.

[xiozen]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

Sorry but it is the developers fault that the game is in the condition its in.

The Developer's created the ToTM system in the first place... the Developers promoted the ToTM system... the Developers (at the time of implementation) repeatedly suggested they would utilize the ToTM system as a way to further enhance the effectiveness of weapons/equipment etc.... so broken or not, the development team is where this begins... as far as the playerbase is concerned... "We" voiced our opinions based on what was implemented/proposed so in effect, even though it started with the Development team, it is a shared effort due to many of the changes that were implemented were based on player feedback.

I completely agree with this post... regardless of the direction the producer wishes to take Adoulin content, releasing extremely strong weapons (comparative to those weapons available via the ToTM system) without taking into account the impact such weapons would have on older content is... negligent...

And its not so much as saying the new content is breaking the game (even though it is) since older content's level of difficulty makes the new weapons and armor comparatively overpowered for its utilization.

More thought should have been given to this expansion prior to it going live... look at all the issues surfacing that have yet to be addressed... this is not World of Warcraft. Geesh!

[Zagen]

1. Casaul players log on for a few hours to relax then quit. When was the last time an alliance of players gathered in less then 30 min?
Why are you playing a game that you can't get anything done in exactly 30 minutes (maybe crafting if it's all AH stuff) and in many cases not even in 1 hour. Heck TotM itself requires you to be on at set times as I previously pointed out.


2. Casual players don't create large parties/alliences they join them or do low man stuff with friends.
Why not level a job that appeals to the people leading events or appeals to low man instead? You know what my favorite job in the game is that still surprises me the most is? PUP. Do you know how wanted for any event a PUP is? It's not. Mine is still geared well.

Casual players don't play MMORPGs, stop using that title as an excuse. If you're truly casual get back to Candy Crush, Angry Birds, etc. Those are casual games. This isn't about being elitist this is about being a realist, people who enjoy those games (you know casual gamers) don't in general dive into the MMORPG genre because of how much more effort is required on the player's part to make the game enjoyable.


3. The new stuff you need a man power to really get ahead. To get ahead you need good gear, expert skill and a reputation as a player. Casual players don't have any of this crap.
This weekend I just did T1 Morimar Basalt Fields with my LS (Volatile Matamata), I could have gone with other people making the shouts but after I looked into the fight I realized it would be a great introduction to Delve for the people in my LS who've been scared of the new content for one reason or another.

Of the group 2 out of the 4 MNKs (AF+1 body made an appearance) were geared to what "hardcore" players would consider decent to well, of our 3 WHMs only 1 was geared well the others are far from Cure Potency Cap let alone geared decently in other aspects relevant to WHM. Our BRD didn't even bring a Madrigal instrument because up until SoA it was a spell never used.

In other words our rag tag band of "gimps" as the elitists would say, cleared a Delve monster in 7~8 minutes all because someone took the time to research.

This same group maybe a few changes will also be attempting to take on the other Delve NMs for clears. Some we'll bother to get 18 people for others well try with just the LS and maybe friends who're interested.


The Trails could be done SOLO on the players own time. Not have to deal with the groups that require lavish setups to get a party slot. From your perspective everything you listed is easy prey. It's obvious you can't fathom the life of a real casual player. In your eyes anyone who isdn't hardcore is just F'lippn lazy. Based on the comments made by a few of these post it just proves how disassociated some core players are with the casual players.

This is partially true, the trials could be done solo however not "on the player's own time". Remember you have to deal with NM respawn times, day of the week, time of the year for weather. TotM are actually the most annoying for me than anything else in the game because of the restrictions.

Again there are no casual players in a MMORPG, there are players with large play time windows and small play time windows. The fact you were able to learn the controls, the battle system, the action house system, the trade system, basic economics of the game, the proc system, NM systems, and so on means you're a "hardcore gamer".


The Mog trials where for casuals because most of them could be completed without large groups. Players could create a weapon in a few days on their own time. SURE there where things like weather was a minor time sync (setback). These things piled in comparison to the monopoly the hardcore players have on end game events. If they wanted to build a weapon they didn't need to wait in town for shouts only to be excluded from some guy that says (do you have X weapon or X job and uber gear) nvm sorry we are full.

TIME SINK you're not synchronizing time you're draining time.

TotM pale in comparison because you don't have a sought after job or refuse to research and lead a group. By the way if you don't research how the hell did you figure out where to get weather kills for your trials?

WHM, BRD, GEO (to be fair few know how good a GEO can be atm), COR, SCH are jobs that at best require leveled skills. Since you have TotM I'd include BLM into the mix here too. Keeping with the fact it can be geared easily then THF fits here too though that's more for Fracture farming.

My COR has an 85 Armageddon did you know when I ask to join a group I've said "Armageddon COR" and "COR", I've never been rejected because that job is all about the rolls they don't even care about the gear in most situations, I do but the leaders don't. I've even gone BRD without Relic or Emp, and no one cared beyond having capped skill for buffs.



Hardcore players simply can't fathom the difference of game play for casual players. The developers also lost track of this play style when they left older content like mog trails behind. The only way to get decent gear from this point on is to deal with the hardcore aspect. I'm not saying the BEST gear I'm saying decent. When you look at the stat differences of casual trial weapons vs dedicated (hardcore) player weapons they are no longer a 10%-20% difference. We now have weapons that are double and triple the strength of previous uber gear!

Again you're not casual you just have less play time and/or dedication to the game. All of these weapons and gear (except for the Delve bosses for now) are attainable by anyone who's willing to look beyond "I wanna solo in a MMO" or "I only wanna play X job but refuse to lead".

[Sarick]

Sorry but it is the developers fault that the game is in the condition its in.

~~~~

I completely agree with this post... regardless of the direction the producer wishes to take Adoulin content, releasing extremely strong weapons (comparative to those weapons available via the ToTM system) without taking into account the impact such weapons would have on older content is... negligent...

And its not so much as saying the new content is breaking the game (even though it is) since older content's level of difficulty makes the new weapons and armor comparatively overpowered for its utilization.

More thought should have been given to this expansion prior to it going live... look at all the issues surfacing that have yet to be addressed... this is not World of Warcraft. Geesh!

The only way to fix the the trials at this point is without nerfing the new gear is to re-balance RME to be comparable to the new content at each stage of the weapons advancement 75,80,85,90 and 95 stages. The current suggested fix only makes fully upgraded versions have potential everything else is just fodder.

The lower tier versions don't gain any benefit from the RME suggested patch. In essence they're total trash unless they're 99 versions. If you want these you'll need to work your ass off harder to get sub-par versions. It's so unbalanced and poorly thought out that it'd be easier to work on the new gear and trash the old RME stuff. It's the oxymoron upgrade path.

Unfortunately, if the old RME get upgraded they'll break the game more in other parts of the game where older content is involved. It dosn't really matter if these where rebalanced because the new content will eventually ruin that balance anyway once players start getting newer uber gear.

All bad.

[Sarick]

Why are you playing a game that you can't get anything done in exactly 30 minutes (maybe crafting if it's all AH stuff) and in many cases not even in 1 hour. Heck TotM itself requires you to be on at set times as I previously pointed out.

Casual players don't play MMORPGs, stop using that title as an excuse. If you're truly casual get back to Candy Crush, Angry Birds, etc. Those are casual games. This isn't about being elitist this is about being a realist, people who enjoy those games (you know casual gamers) don't in general dive into the MMORPG genre because of how much more effort is required on the player's part to make the game enjoyable.

Again you're not casual you just have less play time and/or dedication to the game. All of these weapons and gear (except for the Delve bosses for now) are attainable by anyone who's willing to look beyond "I wanna solo in a MMO" or "I only wanna play X job but refuse to lead".

Do you look dedicated? Your profile (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bismarck/Zagen)

Every job is LVL 99 EXCEPT GEO and you have 3 relics. You are also ranked 74 on a server. Other then your craft skills (the stuff you can solo skill up) you seem to be rather dedicated. Err. hardcore, case and point..

Do I look hardcore? My profile (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Fenrir/Saricks)

Again you don't get it. You can't fathom the difference. You're also wrong about casuals not playing MMORPGS. The term casual is more or less people who play more for fun. You can't contemplate the simple aspect that unless you have decent or to extreme amount of dedication and/or resources you'll be left out in most events.

These casual players can't play for fun if the rewards are geared towards hardcore players. The majority of core players only associate with outer players of the same dedication and caliber. When a casual player logs on to have fun they're vastly interferer and often left out. The game is a social community only for the select few that dedicate themselves.

The only thing you're proving each time you respond is how much you don't understand and/or how much you want to direct others towards anti-casuial play styles.

Wanna see how hardcore you are? You're so dedicated you even visit these official forums to make comments about casual content. I was once hardcore until I grew out of the game. I'm now merely interested in watching the direction things are going. They don't seem to be headed in the best direction IMHO.

Most of the fun times are gone. The casual players are leaving because the games direction is more of a work/job environment then entertainment. I explained why trial weapons are bottle necked. I explained what casuals are and why the adjustments, poor design implementations push content toward one type of play style.

What was your response? I, I, I did this, This is how you need to play the game, it's easy, people are lazy and no one who plays this an MMO is casual. Well, for the last part there might be a reason. It's because people like you exist that think casuals don't belong in MMORPGS. No doubt you'll want to stand against the casual players because it's not how YOU play the game.

There needs to be two routes in any game to be successful. It's like gaming console companies that make games. All games are to hard you lose the casual market if they are to easy you lose the hardcore market. If you have developed for both types you benefit from each market.

I recently quit a game because it just became to frustrating It was better to just watch someone else play through the game then deal with playing it. The player I watched on youtube was elite had busted their arse for superior gear and barely made it past most boss fights. In fact they died an recorded the game over once. This player worked for bad ass gear that barely made them capible of winning and me with the inferior geared armor wouldn't have a chance.

Basically the best gear I could find was level 38 in for my 50+ charicters game without spending massive amounts of time to get through the game for extremely rare gear. I just wanted to have fun and see the story unfold. Poor balance no option to have fun just frustration.

Look at the game Tales of Graces F. It has setting on it that allow the player to go through the game on easy mode and hard mode. Each had it's benefits but It was never forced on a player to only play hardcore or too easy.

The point is that the trial weapons allowed for that play style now that they're super inferior they aren't even worth keeping. Unless these players convert to a different play style they'll be left out for almost everything but the weekly promotional seasonal events. Frankly this is why people quit and why you are under the impression that casuals don't play. It's sad, really sad how out of touch most players are.

[Zagen]

I've realized where the disconnect is, you want to play the game in a way it isn't intended to be played and still feel satisfied at the end of the day. There's really no arguing with that mentality so I'm done.

Edit:


Do you look dedicated? Your profile (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bismarck/Zagen)

Every job is LVL 99 EXCEPT GEO and you have 3 relics. You are also ranked 74 on a server. Other then your craft skills (the stuff you can solo skill up) you seem to be rather dedicated. Err. hardcore, case and point..
Fell cleave leveled jobs. Apocalypse, Almace, and Armageddon totally make me hardcore I mean it's not like those can all be soloed or duoed with a friend... Oh wait I did solo and duo those with a friend, yeah I'm hardcore.

[Sarick]

I've realized where the disconnect is, you want to play the game in a way it isn't intended to be played and still feel satisfied at the end of the day. There's really no arguing with that mentality so I'm done.

I think my is clear that the developers shifted the design of the game. Look at the past expansions the most popular was closer to casual play. I remember working on a few games myself in the past. One of the worst things that was written about to developers was the out of control developer that super sized everything.

The guide was ver specifice to keep things in balence. DO NOT create a SUPER troll that needs an SUPER weapon to beat that in turn creates another SUPER SUPER ENEMY that needs a SUPER SUPER weapon to kil it. I forget where I read this but it was a loop of absurdity where new enemies would be created that needed new gear to beat and then followed up with even more super super enemies.

A guide (https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=fwiw-pet-peeves-and-suggestions-for-a-compelling-computer-rpg)


Fell cleave leveled jobs. Apocalypse, Almace, and Armageddon totally make me hardcore I mean it's not like those can all be soloed or duoed with a friend... Oh wait I did solo and duo those with a friend, yeah I'm hardcore.

Fell cleave, leveling jobs takes some dedication. You took the easy exp mode right? Building your three weapons took some passion the average casual payer didn't even have those. That's where the mog trial weapons came into play even casual players had those. My mule has those. I wouldn't invest in RME weapons on my mules/alts though.

Put it this way, there is only one path left for the player base and it's a tunnel vision design where gear that are a requirement to remain competent. The old casual trial options are comparable to a level 99 fighting with a level 50 weapons in 2013. The new gear is like level 150 gear with a level 99 cap so the level 99 trial weapons are no where near even decent in stats.

The tunnel vision is that these trial weapons don't need upgraded to decent. The lack of developer insight opens up only one direction for upgrades and this direction is beyond the scope of casual players. These players aren't even given valid alternatives that's the whole point here. Either they F-off, spend substantial time on the game, play only to CHAT or quit. Surely there's nothing left to do if you're only given the new expansion options.

[MakkotoParinne]

A casual player is someone who plays in their spare time, does their missions and other tasks, makes friends, and plays the job they like with who they like. Someone who expects to get something done in the timeframe their life allows at their own pace.

People who just don't feel like farming millions of gil or have bad luck want an alternative weapon option that scales better with the new content. Trials of the Magians is the perfect route for this. R/M/E and Delve weapons will still have their throne, so to speak, so no one has their toes stepped on, and everyone gets to enjoy playing the game.

[Zagen]

A casual player is someone who plays in their spare time, does their missions and other tasks, makes friends, and plays the job they like with who they like. Someone who expects to get something done in the timeframe their life allows at their own pace.

People who just don't feel like farming millions of gil or have bad luck want an alternative weapon option that scales better with the new content. Trials of the Magians is the perfect route for this. R/M/E and Delve weapons will still have their throne, so to speak, so no one has their toes stepped on, and everyone gets to enjoy playing the game.

How exactly are people going at their own pace being stopped? On top of not stopping you SE has already said progression for events implemented is to tone them down as time goes on to make them even more accessible to others.

Extending a system that is actually counter productive to a player base with a limited playtime schedule isn't helping them. I really don't understand how that concept is so hard to get. Oh wait maybe you're expecting the TotM weapons to just require geodes to further upgrade them...

[Kaeviathan]

...I just want my double attack katana updated, that is all ; ;.

[Sarick]

A casual player is someone who plays in their spare time, does their missions and other tasks, makes friends, and plays the job they like with who they like. Someone who expects to get something done in the timeframe their life allows at their own pace.

People who just don't feel like farming millions of gil or have bad luck want an alternative weapon option that scales better with the new content. Trials of the Magians is the perfect route for this. R/M/E and Delve weapons will still have their throne, so to speak, so no one has their toes stepped on, and everyone gets to enjoy playing the game.

The problem I wrote about is that to upgrade trial weapons the RME weapons toes WILL get stepped on. As a result the alternatives for upgrades are no longer available you either work for the new dev gear or capped out RME gear. The trial weapons are no longer relevant even to casual players. You'd be better off trashing the trial gear and buying AH equipment equivalent to the mass produced PINK armor from abbysea for millions of gil.

People who aren't casual don't understand the old RME is STOPPING the casual trial weapons from being upgradable.Take a trial weapon tht would have 60 attack and an emp version thats the same level is 71. If you upgrade the EMP weapon sword to its ultimate form its 140 attack or double the old cap.

For the trial version to be comparable it'd need to be at least 90 damage in it's final stage. From this perspective the level 99 trial weapon getting upgraded to 90 damage EXCEEDS the RME weapon that is 71 damage at level 95!

Basically, the RME weapons need rebalanced par stage to open up upgraded trial versions or they'll step on each others toes.

It's just bad balance. It creates a predicament for RME vs trial weapons being if trail weapons exceed the potential in one partially upgraded RME. The gripe is RME weapons would take multiple times more effort simply to upgrade to the next stage and better that 90 damage trial weapon.

Basically if they implement the upgraded trials they'll need to make rebalanced the other stages of RME so the minimum level 80ish RME's maintain an advantage over the highest tier trial weapons. RME's would need minor jumps at the on the final level of the RME weapons ultimate stages. The developer suggested one big upgrade at the end of the final stage. BAD IDEA!

[MakkotoParinne]

How exactly are people going at their own pace being stopped? On top of not stopping you SE has already said progression for events implemented is to tone them down as time goes on to make them even more accessible to others.

Extending a system that is actually counter productive to a player base with a limited playtime schedule isn't helping them. I really don't understand how that concept is so hard to get. Oh wait maybe you're expecting the TotM weapons to just require geodes to further upgrade them...

So you would rather people who don't have access to those weapons straight away wait, what, a year or more for it to be balanced for access by the general population? Everyone who agrees with me might as well just unsubscribe now to suit you.

The system itself is a long grind, yes, but it's small progress vs. no progress. Also, don't make sarcastic accusations. No one expects easy trials to upgrade their weapons.

[MakkotoParinne]

The problem I wrote about is that to upgrade trial weapons the RME weapons toes WILL get stepped on. As a result the alternatives for upgrades are no longer available you either work for the new dev gear or capped out RME gear. The trial weapons are no longer relevant even to casual players. You'd be better off trashing the trial gear and buying AH equipment equivalent to the mass produced PINK armor from abbysea for millions of gil.

People who aren't casual don't understand the old RME is STOPPING the casual trial weapons from being upgradable.Take a trial weapon tht would have 60 attack and an emp version thats the same level is 71. If you upgrade the EMP weapon sword to its ultimate form its 140 attack or double the old cap.

For the trial version to be comparable it'd need to be at least 90 damage in it's final stage. From this perspective the level 99 trial weapon getting upgraded to 90 damage EXCEEDS the RME weapon that is 71 damage at level 95!

Basically, the RME weapons need rebalanced par stage to open up upgraded trial versions or they'll step on each others toes.

It's just bad balance. It creates a predicament for RME vs trial weapons being if trail weapons exceed the potential in one partally upgraded RME. RME weapons would take multiple times more effort simply to upgrade to the next stage and better that 90 damage trial weapon.

Basically if they implement the upgraded trials they'll need to make rebalanced the other stages of RME so the minimum level 85 exceeds the power of the highest tier trial weapons. With minor jumps at the on the final level of the RME weapons ultimate stages.

I agree with that concept, that each stage of R/M/E should have modest damage increases. As long as that occurs, TotM weapons should become more competitive as an alternative.

[Sarick]

So you would rather people who don't have access to those weapons straight away wait, what, a year or more for it to be balanced for access by the general population? Everyone who agrees with me might as well just unsubscribe now to suit you.

I see it the same way, the game isn't going to last forever and the people who are leaving are doing so for various reasons. As I said before most of the core user base is clueless. The hardcore players are the wrost because they'll play till the severs shut down or they get banned for exploiting something. They was clueless about the financial situation in the development when things started going south. Now they're still clueless about the games longevity.


The system itself is a long grind, yes, but it's small progress vs. no progress. Also, don't make sarcastic accusations. No one expects easy trials to upgrade their weapons.

That's what I tried to explain about the game I recently gave up on. Like I said to get decent gear capable of letting me move forward I'd need to invest hundreds of hours of frustrating time sinks that revolved around luck. I was getting no where in the game. I saw it like this, even if I managed to bust my arse getting capable gear my chances of finishing everything would be a waste of time.

If a casual player can't really advance at all they might as well just quit while they're ahead and avoid the frustration of long wasted hours for a game that may die in a year or two.


I agree with that concept, that each stage of R/M/E should have modest damage increases. As long as that occurs, TotM weapons should become more competitive as an alternative.

I won't hold my breath the developers don't want RME weapons to be relevant anymore. The recent announcement was to save face for all the hate from them becoming gutter trash. To rebalance RME stages it'd take some work and money. Obviously, the financial and management situation doesn't give much leeway for it. They'll take the cheapest solution. This means leaving hardcore RME final stage weapons relevant while lower stage weapons aren't useful to the point where it's better to work on new weapons. Reckless abandonment.

RME upgrades only at final stages is a joke unless you already have them upgraded to final stages they're better off being deleted because you can get better gear elsewhere. The final upgrade shows just how stupid it would be to complete an RME. Every sage up until its masted is GARBAGE compared to new gear. The players who like this is a solution aren't very smart IMHO. It's like someone who thinks a bronzed turd from a famous person is worth millions of dollars.

[MakkotoParinne]

The way I see it, if it cannot be done without balancing them, I think they should balance them.

If it can be done without balancing them, it's still a step in the right direction. My point is, if someone with a lower level R/M/E cannot obtain enough metal plates, they shouldn't be left in the dust, you know?

I wonder why anyone bothered to implement content such as Salvage II or level 99 trials at all if it was planned to be scrapped. Couldn't the hours of work and money spent be used to something a little more productive towards variety in equipment?

[RAIST]

...I just want my double attack katana updated, that is all ; ;.

Not just that one... I have several for which I have been expecting an additional trial. There are several lines that just don't appear to be finished yet. Just look at the descriptions on the current final stages for some lines:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120309094633/ffxi/images/4/47/Trial3399.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120103073413/ffxi/images/2/28/Trial3442.jpg

I just grabbed a couple panels, but the trend covers several lines for each weapon out there. Other lines don't have their damage ratings still broken out like that, but instead have it consolidated as one value. It would appear SE had something more in store for magians.

The big questions are if and when they will be coming...

[MakkotoParinne]

Not just that one... I have several for which I have been expecting an additional trial. There are several lines that just don't appear to be finished yet. Just look at the descriptions on the current final stages for some lines:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120309094633/ffxi/images/4/47/Trial3399.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120103073413/ffxi/images/2/28/Trial3442.jpg

I just grabbed a couple panels, but the trend covers several lines for each weapon out there. Other lines don't have their damage ratings still broken out like that, but instead have it consolidated as one value. It would appear SE had something more in store for magians.

The big questions are if and when they will be coming...

I hope a community rep can help us out here. :) Let's stay positive and try to garner more likes on the first post to get some attention for this.

[Sarick]

I hope a community rep can help us out here. :) Let's stay positive and try to garner more likes on the first post to get some attention for this.

You have mine.


I wonder why anyone bothered to implement content such as Salvage II or level 99 trials at all if it was planned to be scrapped. Couldn't the hours of work and money spent be used to something a little more productive towards variety in equipment?

I feel the same way. I have a severe disposition to players who fail to realize how poorly implemented and broken the latest expansion makes things. It's absurd that only the final levels or RME weapons will be relevant. They'll need massive amounts of resources to be garbage at lower partial levels so it's not feasible to use/build them in stages anymore.

[Zagen]

So you would rather people who don't have access to those weapons straight away wait, what, a year or more for it to be balanced for access by the general population? Everyone who agrees with me might as well just unsubscribe now to suit you.

The system itself is a long grind, yes, but it's small progress vs. no progress. Also, don't make sarcastic accusations. No one expects easy trials to upgrade their weapons.

I'm sorry are you all the way up to date on the previous stuff already? I mean if you are then how aren't you able to clear the new stuff. Did you miss the part where I mentioned the group I did the matamata with was compromised of people who are far from "well geared" (far from caught up). It really just takes some research, planning, and getting people together to get the new content done it isn't actually that hard. Everyday it gets less hard as those hardcore players figure out how exactly the new gimmicks work and they aren't even jerks about it they make their knowledge free for all to read.

[RAIST]

I'll support this thread, but I think the issue is more the fact that ToTM doesn't seem to tie well to Adoulin content, and limiting it to Abyssea would be odd.

Just wanted to note that Magians don't really need to tie into SoA, nor Abyssea. The mechaninc for ToM is basically to spam the same target repeatedly to strengthen the weapon. You kill this NM x number of times (either for direct credit, or kill it enough times to get x number of items), or you kill monsters in this family under certain conditions (weather/day, pet final kill, Weaponskill kill, use Weaponskill x number of times on them), participate int certain events enough times to collect a set number of items from that event (or you could cheat and buy some--the point is to acquire items to use to upggrade the weapon), and so and so and so forth.

The point is... Magians aren't really tied to any specific expansion or add-on other than the fact that you are trying to acquire a specific item/kill a target only available in/from those zones/events tied to those expansions/add-ons. It could very easily be something as stupid as Moogles are curious about the plasm and want you to come to them with 100k units of it for them to examine you, then put you through some crazy boss fight to see how the plasm effects the fight. Who knows.

Even if they don't want to get that elaborate with development, they don't need to do much, really. For the most part, the mechanic is already there. After all, we only got to 15 Avatarites for elemental stages, and most the WS paths just need new mob types with a new number of WS kills or WS usage and such. Basically, all SE needs to do is come up with new targets or a new mechanic for the small percentage that don't already have an obvious path/pattern established, and we have a whole new tier for magians.

[Sarick]

I'm sorry are you all the way up to date on the previous stuff already? I mean if you are then how aren't you able to clear the new stuff. Did you miss the part where I mentioned the group I did the matamata with was compromised of people who are far from "well geared" (far from caught up). It really just takes some research, planning, and getting people together to get the new content done it isn't actually that hard. Everyday it gets less hard as those hardcore players figure out how exactly the new gimmicks work and they aren't even jerks about it they make their knowledge free for all to read.

Case by case this isn't the average community response. You're still basing the direction on the hardcore (bolded in your quote) audience and neglecting the casuals completely. All players started with the older content standard when new content came out. In this case most players started on even ground.

Eventually players will set new high standards for what is acceptable setups. Right now you can allow those people in the near future if you do the same events people won't be so accepting of those setups. Casual players can't keep up and this is where the trial weapons would allow them some way to move forward. Since these will become inferior junk the only alternatives result in no progression or hardcore dedication for the NEW IMPROVED gear standards.

[Zagen]

Case by case this isn't the average community response. You're still basing the direction on the hardcore (bolded in your quote) audience and neglecting the casuals completely. All players started with the older content standard when new content came out. In this case most players started on even ground.

Eventually players will set new high standards for what is acceptable setups. Right now you can allow those people in the near future if you do the same events people won't be so accepting of those setups. Casual players can't keep up and this is where the trial weapons would allow them some way to move forward. Since these will become inferior junk the only alternatives result in no progression or hardcore dedication for the NEW IMPROVED gear standards.

If "casual" players need TotM to remain relevant to participate in new fresh content how exactly are they helping discover the tips and tricks to new content? The context I used hardcore that you quoted was as in the players who explore new content without knowing how it works and then talk about it in a public manner and then create wiki pages for said info.

As to players who set "high standards" when exactly was TotM ever part of that? I mean it was R/E/M when VW/NNI/Salvage2 was new and before that was Abyssea where you were expected to have relevant proc spells/weapon skills which had nothing to do with TotM weapons.

I do have a genuine question for those who call themselves "casual players". If you have reduced play time and are doing things at your own pace why are you trying to take on the newest content when you haven't cleared the past content?

I ask because if you have cleared the older content you'd have more than adequate gear to take on the new stuff. As SE has stated that's how they want you to progress through the game.

[Sarick]

I do have a genuine question for those who call themselves "casual players". If you have reduced play time and are doing things at your own pace why are you trying to take on the newest content when you haven't cleared the past content?

I ask because if you have cleared the older content you'd have more than adequate gear to take on the new stuff. As SE has stated that's how they want you to progress through the game.

Because you don't just start out with the best gear or even decent gear you have to work your way up to a minimum set. If those minimum sets aren't even minimal you can't reach the next step without somehow making 3-4 jumps.

Look at it like this most people who level these days don't even bother with most gear ranges 1-80ish. The reason is not only because you level fast but also because the broad range of in between gear isn't available. With the trial weapons you start out with a FREE BASE weapon and build it over time in a casual fashion.

It's like trying to fish Lik with a Cloth pole. You need to at least get a Lu first or you'll never catch a single fish. The rod will snap like a twig every time because the equipment is inferior. The newer gear is just that much better. The standard is set high for most of the community you might give allowance for casuals but the majority are only in it for #1.

Unlike fishing or building crafting skills you need to be accepted, have a reputation and/or minimal gear. With trials casuals didn't need any of that for the most part. In fishing/crafting you can skill up at your own pace. There are no other players holding you back outside the amount of resources you can come by.

To get the new gear you just can't jump into the events as a casual player. Players are being forced into new content or GTFO. There aren't alternative routes created for casuals everyone has to follow the same path to get anything decent. By design this one sided. This frustration doesn't make people stay long.

Casual isn't the case with the new expansion. There is a minimum requirement to team up with others. The new content is brutal for casual players. You need the better gear to survive at a minimal level. What I see is something along the lines of at level 99 you should already have decent gear. That first step isn't enough of a starting point with the vast jump in gear quality. The recent changes have created a void that leaves casuals alienated from participating in events geared toward their type of growth.

Have you noticed where are the new players? Both my social linkshells broke after the new expansion one of which was casual and in good standing membership of well over 50 players. The leader was very active and suddenly people started disappearing until only a few where left then the shell died.

This game desperately needs more casual content from the new expansion. The casual players I know aren't staying because most of them hate the expansion. The unbalanced content is so extreme that anything based on older casual content even the level 99 stuff is gutter trash. Ding.. there's your answer.

This whole topic is about upgrading casual alternative weapons to be decent for the new expansion areas. NOT THE BEST but decent. When you point out how lazy the players are for not being dedicated you've neglected the fact that the programmers haven't updated the old content. My guess is they don't plan on rebalencing the mog trial gear. Clearly it's too much work to update only that content when they can just create new content for the hardcore players.

[Zagen]

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?

I understand at one point SE said TotM would always remain relevant but they also said BST would get the pet with the most votes when asked about new pets or how SMN were supposed to get new Avatars over a year ago. SE never goes back on their word nope not ever.

As to new players not staying that's simple, the MMORPG model "pay 2 play" is dead. WoW is feeling it and Blizzard has already admitted they expect to keep losing players. I sure hope 14 is prepared to switch models but that's a whole other topic all together.

[Sarick]

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?

What people want is alternative gear that is a casual path. It doesn't need to be the best. This gear is in the form of older content growth not the new shoved in your face content. Plain and simple. As I stated before the best games the have multiple paths toward development. These excel because players aren't restricted to one path.The ones that are inflexible (forced as to hard or to easy) fail the hardest. This game is after all a glorified chat room where people come to enjoy a game not work a second job.


Before this expansion a player could choose any RME or trial and build them up. All these gears scaled nearly identical and remained powerful. Even the trial gear was comparable to the uber gear for casual player. Now you see in this new content the only RME are relevant to the new content in the FINAL stage.

Mog trial type casual weapons are extremely inferior and not even worth creating. Wrose the FINAL stage RME are ludicrous to create outside cheating, exploitation or absurd dedication.

In your quote gil farming to get stage 7 gear just proves how broken everything 1-6 is. This is the Jump that makes all content below 7 a joke. No onein their right mind would want to work for that content when they can power gear themselves like cleave parties with stage 7 gear.

[Zagen]

The new content wasn't shoved in your face. I still see players shouting for seal/+2 farming and they do just fine so I just don't get it. It's not like SoA came out and now you can't do old stuff you're still on.

After the expansion you can still pick R/E/M/TotM to work on in order to better take on the next step in progression, you know just like how years ago we used to buy armor and weapons while leveling up.

[Sarick]

The new content wasn't shoved in your face. I still see players shouting for seal/+2 farming and they do just fine so I just don't get it. It's not like SoA came out and now you can't do old stuff you're still on.

After the expansion you can still pick R/E/M/TotM to work on in order to better take on the next step in progression, you know just like how years ago we used to buy armor and weapons while leveling up.

I think you're missing the point.

That older content is a waste of time because it caps out. Without paths to make it compatible you need to eventually get the new content and throw out the old content. Gear isn't scaled it pushes forward towards new content. This smoke screen that RME will always be relevant is a joke when the gear is only relevant in it's final forum. Like I said everything below step 7 on your list is gutter trash (most of it). It's more adventitious to farm gil and buy the flippen crafted gear then to develop those old obsolete gear paths. Even the new content gear listed in #5 is more or less a an improved version of the pink armors bought in abbysea.

The new casual is farming gil for AH crafted gear because other content doesn't compete.

[Gippo]

This argument is ridiculous. So let me get this straight: even though SE has explicitly stated that not all gear is designed to be acquired by all players, you're basically saying you want SE to reward casual play in the form of you getting gear that is on par with Delve equipment by....

not only doing something that will literally take you longer real life time (TotM),
but that doesn't involve new content?

All you have to do is kill 1-4 NM's in a pick up group and you can be as casual as you wanna be.
Delve is a 45min event. If that's not casual I don't know what is.

Am I saying to do this 10x a day? No.
Am I saying to stop holding onto the past? Absolutely

There is literally no mental effort required to get this gear. You can be a complete idiot that has absolutely no idea what you're doing, and all you have to do is wait for a shout, join it, and do what someone says. If that's not casual enough, I can't help you anymore.

[Sarick]

This argument is ridiculous. So let me get this straight: even though SE has explicitly stated that not all gear is designed to be acquired by all players, you're basically saying you want SE to reward casual play in the form of you getting gear that is on par with Delve equipment

No I'm saying the old system worked. You also had more growth options that don't exist in the new system. I never once said make them BEST I said decent. On a scale of 1-5 decent is average or 3 where best would be a 5. If you score the new gear and relate them to old casual content you have stuff that was decent being 1 or below with the other new content being rated at a 10. I made this by looking at the different from near final gear of RME weapons in comparison to the new tiers.

If best was 5 and new content is double that then they must be a 10! That makes the trial weapons scale 3 out of 10. where they should be scaled to at least a 5 and RME should be scaled to at least an 8. If these numbers where simplified back to the 1/5 scale trials would be 1 or 2 RMEs would be 4 and new content would be a 5. Like I told the other guy the new casual is gil farming for AH crafted gear because the other stuff isn't worth the effort if you don't already have it.


all you have to do is wait for a shout, join it, and do what someone says.

I bolded the statement you made to clarify what you just said: "wait join and do what someone says" exactly what I expect. This is easier said then done it's also not casual play. It's just another rat race for better gear when the designers could've further developed the activities that actually worked.

[Hawklaser]

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?


Just want to chime in on this as a returning player, as been having fun with this gear struggle. Getting from 0 to 1 is very easy seeing as the cruor equip is dirt cheep on the AH and not that hard to fill in the gaps with cost effective gear. Gear from 2-4, and 6, good luck getting people to help on that stuff anymore. Been stuck trying to get some of the gear in those areas for a while. I have not really dabbled with 5 yet, as beating on a rock or root does not seem all that fun especially when some gear from the other areas seem to be more useful than most of the gear obtained via bayld, and have limited time as well.

Now 7 would be a nice alternative, if they were more affordable, but alas not everyone has a million plus gil to throw at a single gear slot.

As for 8,9, and 10, good luck on doing those on anything but a support job unless you are already decently geared.

Now, I get that different content favors different jobs, but one should not be forced to level a job they have no desire to play just to get gear for the one they do want to play. This means either via playing a support job to participate in end game stuff, or leveling one of few jobs that can solo that earlier content. Zagen, you mentioned earlier that you know what its like not being able to do content you want on a job you like. Consider being forced to do that from level 1-99, because of how hard it is to get assistance on old content now. People are already advised to level WHM first for a few reasons, one is easy Maat fight, and 2nd is can use it to gear what ever else one wants to play.

I don't consider myself a casual or hardcore player, partly because I do try and put in the effort to excel at the jobs I really enjoy, but never had the time to do the big endgame events. So here I am stuck not being able to really progress, because it would be easier to take a little kid to the dentist then it is to get help on non-SoA content currently. With being a returning player, I know how much reputation can mean in this game, so really don't want to be showing up to these more end game like events with the more newbish gear even if could do so.

Now as to the arguments about seeing people shouting for groups to do seal/+2 farming, or join in a delve group that is shouting. For the first one, they likely have to resort to shouting because their linkshell(if they have one) is not helping them out with it, plus shouts I kinda see as a last resort as it has one sitting in town likely doing nothing for who knows how long. And as to the delve stuff, right now you might be able to sneak in a cruor geared non-support, but that is getting harder to do.

[Gippo]

the new casual is gil farming for AH crafted gear because the other stuff isn't worth the effort if you don't already have it.

Get abyssea +2 gear. can do with a PT.

Then do Reives - buy gear at peacekeepers. Some is really good man.

Then do Delve NM's.

Some of the gear mentioned, like NNI and Salvage is nice, but not necessary to do it.

Another tip - get 100k bayld, enter a wildskeeper reive when you see a shout. Kill it and get the KI. Then, what you do, you fight the shard NM's inside the fracture - 45 minute time limit instead of 20min.
(You need the KI to "sponsor" the run, so either get the KI, or get a friend that has it and skip the WK Reive)

[Elphy]

There has to be some differences in gear and accessibility to content.

What casual gamers do not realize is that if a gaming company does not offer different levels to the game they cannot hold a player base and therefore cannot keep going. Casuals by design never stay with a game long and the hardcore players will abandon a game quickly if they run out of content to complete.

They allow everyone a fair shot at all the content and gear, however you need to put the time into it. There is nothing restricting you from doing any content in the game or getting any piece of gear except your own personal schedule. But not everyone's schedules are the same.

If a game completely caters to the casual it has no hardcore base because there is nothing for them to do. But if a game puts layers to it the casuals and the hardcore will always have something to do, which creates a larger player base overall and more revenue for the company. Yes it may take years sometimes for the casual players to catch up but it is an mmo which is meant for long-term playability. There are also always like minded ppl or ppl on your schedule. You just need to find them. Create a few posts on one of the myriad of fan sites and see if you can form or join a group. I did it with nyzul/salvage/dyna/assault back in the day since my schedule doesn't really coincide with peak times and it worked wonderfully. And this was when it took 6 months > year to get 1 job to 75 + a lot longer to fully merit it.

You get what you put into an mmo just like a non-mmo game. The difference is a non-mmo is designed to take your money > get you threw it in a reasonable time > take your money again for another game. mmo's are designed to take your money over and over again so they can get away with long long long term goals.

Casuals you need to understand that you have access to the same content and gear as everyone else, you just cannot have it right now this very minute. The hardcore players need to invest just as much time, the difference is they can do it in larger chunks. If ffxi would cater to the casual gamer only it would go down faster than it is now.

As for new players...well that's a poor game design on SE's part. The game is so top heavy and is now designed to get you up to the top so fast that the sheer lack of low-level content and any direction is what is really killing things. Not to mention the horrid design that is spell scrolls, attachments, ammo, dice and all the other incredible gil-sinks that makes starting up even more difficult. At least before we had level-restricted missions we could enjoy as we leveled.

Patience is the key to any good mmo. If you wanna stamp you foot and pull a Veruca Salt they all your doing is sinking the ship faster.

[Hawklaser]

Casuals you need to understand that you have access to the same content and gear as everyone else, you just cannot have it right now this very minute. The hardcore players need to invest just as much time, the difference is they can do it in larger chunks. If ffxi would cater to the casual gamer only it would go down faster than it is now.

As for new players...well that's a poor game design on SE's part. The game is so top heavy and is now designed to get you up to the top so fast that the sheer lack of low-level content and any direction is what is really killing things. Not to mention the horrid design that is spell scrolls, attachments, ammo, dice and all the other incredible gil-sinks that makes starting up even more difficult. At least before we had level-restricted missions we could enjoy as we leveled.


I don't think casuals have any problem with understanding the gear and content differences, the problem here is reminding me a lot of how the content for CoP went among the playerbase. Anyone who did those missions when they were still level capped know exactly how annoying it could be if you did not have a nice static for them. As anyone past them didn't really want to go back an help others with the missions, and in order to beat them needed to be pretty well set up in the first place.

That is what I see happening with the Abyssea and SoA content currently. And it hurts those that have recently came back, or are starting new until the newer crafted items get down in price because that higher gear is needed to do anything the more long term playerbase is currently doing. Which I think the goal of the magian weapons was to give those that did not have the means to create a full R/M/E weapon a means of still participating in the more current content. After all, how enjoyable is a game when all you really have access to is the older mostly dead content?

Honestly, the issue at hand here is the growing gap between those that have been at the endgame content for a while and those starting out from square one. If someone that is trying to gear up a job they enjoy hits a roadblock of not being to progress, they are more likely to find something else they enjoy than sit around waiting on shouts or shouting, which could be anything from leveling another job they think they may enjoy, to playing another game completely.

And while the Balyd gear is there to help out with getting up to speed with the new content currently, there are only a few ways to get it without being on a job capable of dealing with Tough or higher mobs consistently. So even getting the gear that is meant to help with getting up to speed, is not going to be easy for those that are not already geared, and it is only going to get worse for those that are behind when those at the top are no longer doing the earlier parts. Can look at WoG stuff to see what happens when content that needs some heavier participation goes by the wayside.

[Zagen]

Just want to chime in on this as a returning player, as been having fun with this gear struggle. Getting from 0 to 1 is very easy seeing as the cruor equip is dirt cheep on the AH and not that hard to fill in the gaps with cost effective gear. Gear from 2-4, and 6, good luck getting people to help on that stuff anymore. Been stuck trying to get some of the gear in those areas for a while. I have not really dabbled with 5 yet, as beating on a rock or root does not seem all that fun especially when some gear from the other areas seem to be more useful than most of the gear obtained via bayld, and have limited time as well.

2 I only see as a problem if you refuse to lead and run a group with what job you like (i.e. if you love BST then get the key atma you need to have a tanking pet) and build around that. People left in the game that aren't caught up are more than happy to be your sheep if you will lead them. That's the thing though you have to be willing to lead, this was true in the past for anything and is even more true now as those players with natural leading skills have built up friends they do things with or have moved on, in either case you can take over or wait to be someone else's sheep.


3 honestly can be skipped on almost every job, even before SoA VW gear had already become obsolete with the exception of a few items (obviously this depends job to job but overall many pieces where out grown).

4 for salvage the only hard part is having a group that can clear the bosses, by that I mean a competent healer and decent DDs. Plans can be farmed by a lot of different jobs and in many cases don't require TH (helps but not required). Neo Limbus is just like the boss fights just scaled up pretty much, a little more annoying but overall the same (this was sad when it was found out, as it was lazy design imo).

5 is by far the easiest to do if you're smart about it. What that means is that while a SMN could walk away from a reive with 3-4k Bayld (my lol SMN has done this clearing paths for Delve) it makes more sense to do the Coalition quests. For example Mummer's Coalition starter mission is collect a Lost Article KI from Ceizak Battlegrounds or Yahse Hunting Grounds. All you do is find the Lost Article NPC target (not on wide scan that i recall), touch it, and you have the KI. Then turn it in for 1,500/2,700/3,800 Bayld depending on how many tags you chose when you picked the mission. Also many quests reward you with Bayld for example the 2 quests involving every waypoint in each of the Adoulin zones.

Because of the options available that require 0 fighting I feel that going from 2 to 5 is more than reasonable, also the fact that much of the gear from 3 and 4 on my list isn't a major upgrade.

6 it just takes someone willing to lead 80 clear runs, do some research and you'll be able to go either with a static or shout groups. They still fill up on my server and the best part is with all the changes getting 80 clears is realistic for sub optimal setups.


Now 7 would be a nice alternative, if they were more affordable, but alas not everyone has a million plus gil to throw at a single gear slot.

I agree the prices are high but this is in part because they're new and high level synths, and the other part is there just isn't a large supply of the craft items needed. Eventually this will drop in price as it has been already.


As for 8,9, and 10, good luck on doing those on anything but a support job unless you are already decently geared.
8 actually you can do naked as long as you have the KI to access the zone. It's like Walk of Echos in that you can't be excluded as long as you have access. Obviously you have to be able to do your part in order to get enough points for a shot at the gear but that's logical and I doubt anyone has an issue with that mechanic.

9 and 10, considering this is what SE has stated will be the endgame content for a while isn't it logical that until you've gotten up to 6-7 you should be excluded?


Now, I get that different content favors different jobs, but one should not be forced to level a job they have no desire to play just to get gear for the one they do want to play. This means either via playing a support job to participate in end game stuff, or leveling one of few jobs that can solo that earlier content. Zagen, you mentioned earlier that you know what its like not being able to do content you want on a job you like. Consider being forced to do that from level 1-99, because of how hard it is to get assistance on old content now. People are already advised to level WHM first for a few reasons, one is easy Maat fight, and 2nd is can use it to gear what ever else one wants to play.

If you aren't trying to skip several steps in the game's progression you wouldn't need to level another job to participate. However depending on what job you do enjoy that may mean waiting for people who're open minded, understand your job choice still works in X event, or leading your own group. If any of those aren't options you care for you'll find yourself in the same position I was in as a 95 Apoc DRK when NNI was the new thing to do. While I got 2 100 clears on DRK I got tired of waiting for a DD slot and chose to gear my SCH to give me that as an option. At that time I didn't feel like leading groups but I found that most people who were trying to lead hadn't bothered to research things and I ended up training them, instead of training them I decided to lead a static and we got 5 more pieces from KIs and I believe 4 more drops not counting the NQ/+1/+2/+3 items. The only thing hardcore or elite of the group I formed was 5 other players willing to research and make adjustments as we learned to play together.


I don't consider myself a casual or hardcore player, partly because I do try and put in the effort to excel at the jobs I really enjoy, but never had the time to do the big endgame events. So here I am stuck not being able to really progress, because it would be easier to take a little kid to the dentist then it is to get help on non-SoA content currently. With being a returning player, I know how much reputation can mean in this game, so really don't want to be showing up to these more end game like events with the more newbish gear even if could do so.

First the honest (or as some say ass) response to this issue would be: maybe this isn't the right game to play. Okay that aside considering I still see a lot of players running around in out dated gear I find it hard to believe doing old content is hard to get done, unless you're unwilling to lead.

You may not have friends from returning I know that happens, it happened to me after taking a year break a while back. I gained new friends by shouting/joining "old" content at the time. I also built up a rep in merit parties as being a good player which helped in gaining friends who were willing to help. It takes time, I understand that but then again that has always been the case.


Now as to the arguments about seeing people shouting for groups to do seal/+2 farming, or join in a delve group that is shouting. For the first one, they likely have to resort to shouting because their linkshell(if they have one) is not helping them out with it, plus shouts I kinda see as a last resort as it has one sitting in town likely doing nothing for who knows how long. And as to the delve stuff, right now you might be able to sneak in a cruor geared non-support, but that is getting harder to do.

A majority of my seals and +2 items came from shout groups. You're living in the past when it comes to large events, the concept of large linkshells doing events exclusively has in general died off. It's not about not getting help it's just that content in general has scaled back enough to allow for interacting with people who you haven't learned their play style(s).

Delve I agree for Plasm farming but that's actually due to the mechanics restricting players wanting to lead groups. There's only a few people who shout, the reason for that is they are people willing to lead, they also have the KI to take people in, and they have done some basic research.

As to Delve KI clears I still see people shouting for them. Again if you don't prescribe to "the ends justify the means" and level a job that is appealing while still easy to gear (WHM, SCH, BLM, RDM, COR, etc.) then you're going to have to go with leading a group or buying a clear.

At the end of all this expanding TotM doesn't make a "casual player" more appealing because they never made a player more appealing when they were relevant. Think about it a second, the most powerful TotM weapons were the staves in particular the magic damage and cure potency ones. Now prior to SoA when did you ever see a shout that read to the effect of: "BLM TotM Damage Staves (Yes, Please)" or "WHM TotM Cure Potency Staff (Yes, Please)"? I never did.

[Sarick]

Get abyssea +2 gear. can do with a PT.

I have all +2 sets for MNK, DNC, RDM and I think WHM. To get this gear you need friends or players still doing the content.


Then do Reives - buy gear at peacekeepers. Some is really good man.

Really good? WTF happened to the RME stuff that's supposed to remain valid? All I see is a development of get gear trash it gear more gear trash it get more gear then after years.

This is the story of bad development. Like I said the upgrade paths for older content need rebalenced. It's like not in vocabulary that players are being pushed toward new content. WTF else is there?

The trial weapons don't continue to scale. It's like OMG the new world opened up now lets abandon the rest of the F'n game for beating on roots. Join the status quo be like every other loyal sheep. Good development has verity and keeps all content fresh without being reckless. How is this reckless? Well, like the other returning player said 4/5 the game has become abandon. Good luck finding help for anything but SoA content. Screw the other half of the player base that could funding new development.

It's like Coke when they decided to compete with pepsi. They reckless decided to change the recipe without keeping the old. What happened they lost customers! After a few months they decided to bring back classic coke. In the log run because they created formulas for both taste preferences they attracted a much larger base.

If the developer really wanted to keep the game interesting they wouldn't try to top themselves every time they add something new without balancing other older paths. Trials paths should be rebalanced and have more upgrades. Everything shouldn't revolve around the Flipp'en SoA expansion like it is now. It's tunnel vision development tat only ruins te fun of playing the game.


Then do Delve NM's.

Another event that will die in a year or too when they announce new uber gear. Casual players are sick of the F'n rat race. They are leaving fast because to much is being force fed with a jack hammer. It's not like they'd ignore the trials if they where updated.I know hard-hardcore players who still did trials. Sometimes you don't need new content it just needs updated.


Some of the gear mentioned, like NNI and Salvage is nice, but not necessary to do it.

Time sink time sink. Did you do these events?


Another tip - get 100k bayld, enter a wildskeeper reive when you see a shout. Kill it and get the KI. Then, what you do, you fight the shard NM's inside the fracture - 45 minute time limit instead of 20min.
(You need the KI to "sponsor" the run, so either get the KI, or get a friend that has it and skip the WK Reive)

Repeating the same stuff. Lets just rebalanced the game as a whole instead of pissing off people by telling them do the whats popular now stuff like everyone else or GTFO. Thats what your saying. The whole topic is about opening up trials again so people can play at their own pace. It's no wonder the gaming community labeled the FFXI community in such a harsh way. Look at the previous post from Hawklaser. It clearly shows that new comers or returning players aren't welcome unless they dedicate a portion of their lives to the pixels on FFXI.


People and developers are blind just look at the evidence. (http://www.enixorigin.com/square-enix-reaching-rock-bottom/)


Whats the response he got? "YOU'RE LIVING IN THE PAST." Might as well just say GTFO Noob. because that's the impression I got out of it. Join pick up groups pay for wins, Just do 80 fights LMAO. Then goes on explain how no one shouted for assistance making trial weapons. Seriously, OMG, OMG this is EXACTLY why the trial system worked! It's also the reason why it should be updated.

Just rebalanced the trials and some of the older content. That stuff worked it was attractive to everyone. Stop trying to force feed new content on everyone. Clearly everyone doesn't play the same so why continue promote that. Bring back what works and you have a WINNER. The players who are vets know damn well that most of the community only plays for #1 and has little interest in participating without some beneficial rewards.

[Teraniku]

I don't think casuals have any problem with understanding the gear and content differences, the problem here is reminding me a lot of how the content for CoP went among the playerbase. Anyone who did those missions when they were still level capped know exactly how annoying it could be if you did not have a nice static for them. As anyone past them didn't really want to go back an help others with the missions, and in order to beat them needed to be pretty well set up in the first place.

.

-Actually I helped quite a few people doing CoP after I was done. I stopped doing it because 95% of the people didn't take the time to farm weakness items, or any actual prep work before doing the missions. They just wanted me and the few others who were past it to get them through it.

[Hawklaser]

2 I only see as a problem if you refuse to lead and run a group with what job you like (i.e. if you love BST then get the key atma you need to have a tanking pet) and build around that. People left in the game that aren't caught up are more than happy to be your sheep if you will lead them. That's the thing though you have to be willing to lead, this was true in the past for anything and is even more true now as those players with natural leading skills have built up friends they do things with or have moved on, in either case you can take over or wait to be someone else's sheep.

As I mentioned earlier, I see shouts as kind of a last resort, as usually can find something else to do than camp out in one of the zones yell works in. Used to try and build groups all the time to try and level DRG pre-ToAU, but more often than not, was a better use of my time to put up a seacom and go farm some stuff for gil as still needed gear as well. So until hit a total wall on the jobs I enjoy, will be a while before I go shouting for that stuff though if I see one when am free and passing through I will go on them, as would rather be doing what I can do instead of sitting in town for long periods of time.




9 and 10, considering this is what SE has stated will be the endgame content for a while isn't it logical that until you've gotten up to 6-7 you should be excluded?

Of course it is. Not saying that cruor armor DD should be going to these, as I don't want to touch them until get to a point I consider adequately geared for them. Just getting up to that point can be tricky without help or having specific jobs leveled.



If you aren't trying to skip several steps in the game's progression you wouldn't need to level another job to participate. However depending on what job you do enjoy that may mean waiting for people who're open minded, understand your job choice still works in X event, or leading your own group. If any of those aren't options you care for you'll find yourself in the same position I was in as a 95 Apoc DRK when NNI was the new thing to do. While I got 2 100 clears on DRK I got tired of waiting for a DD slot and chose to gear my SCH to give me that as an option. At that time I didn't feel like leading groups but I found that most people who were trying to lead hadn't bothered to research things and I ended up training them, instead of training them I decided to lead a static and we got 5 more pieces from KIs and I believe 4 more drops not counting the NQ/+1/+2/+3 items. The only thing hardcore or elite of the group I formed was 5 other players willing to research and make adjustments as we learned to play together.

Not trying to skip tiers myself, was more pointing out unless one has lots of helpful friends or linkshell members, or plenty of time to waste shouting for some things with no assurance will get people you need to do whatever is needed, its not easy getting above cruor gear and some of the simpler AH weapons, unless you happened to level specific jobs first, whether or not you enjoy them is a different matter.




First the honest (or as some say ass) response to this issue would be: maybe this isn't the right game to play. Okay that aside considering I still see a lot of players running around in out dated gear I find it hard to believe doing old content is hard to get done, unless you're unwilling to lead.

This was more due to back when it took multiple alliances to do things, never really had the time where could set aside 2hrs+ consistently to do some of the older endgame events... reason I say 2hrs+ is because I know how often some people don't get preparations done in advance or key members show up late. When things take 30-40m to do, much easier to set aside time for them.



You may not have friends from returning I know that happens, it happened to me after taking a year break a while back. I gained new friends by shouting/joining "old" content at the time. I also built up a rep in merit parties as being a good player which helped in gaining friends who were willing to help. It takes time, I understand that but then again that has always been the case.

Yeah, it does take time to rebuild up contacts. Though sometimes scheduling in general is an issue, and other times, there are just some things people don't really want to help with at all.



A majority of my seals and +2 items came from shout groups. You're living in the past when it comes to large events, the concept of large linkshells doing events exclusively has in general died off. It's not about not getting help it's just that content in general has scaled back enough to allow for interacting with people who you haven't learned their play style(s).

No issue with shouting to get things done, but personally if I am sitting in town shouting, its more because I got nothing else to do or already have a little bit of help lined up. And usually have plenty of other things could be doing than sitting in town. Also never said was expecting a whole shell to help out with lower NM's and such, there are some things where it is a pain to get one or two people to help with unless it directly ties into something they need too even within a linkshell. Getting one or two people to help out within a linkshell should be relatively easy to have happen, may not happen right when you ask, but should be doable within a linkshell without many problems. Though not everyone is going to have a really helpful linkshell.


So was more pointing out the option for those that are not already geared, and lacking a good support group is pretty much Bayld gear. Though when look at several jobs the Bayld gear is not what they should be going for outside of a few equipment slots. And for some players the non-combat Bayld fetch quests will get old fast and cause them to loose interest, even more so if they appear behind obstructions that are no longer being removed when the focus shifts away from those areas. Which can lead to issues when future content leaps happen unless new semi-easy base gears keep happening, which starts to defeat the purpose of doing older content at all unless it has an irreplaceable reward like the Divine Might earrings or CoP rings currently.


-Actually I helped quite a few people doing CoP after I was done. I stopped doing it because 95% of the people didn't take the time to farm weakness items, or any actual prep work before doing the missions. They just wanted me and the few others who were past it to get them through it.
Ended up doing the first three Crags like 6 times when level caps were in place to get people up to a point where I could make progress. So there were people that would help with earlier, but they were rare for a number of reasons. More often than not, was more because they didn't want to do certain parts again. I'd still go back and do them again with the level cap in place, but many people I knew didn't want to touch them again.

[Umichi]

I'm a casual player, I could be a hardcore player (by that i mean dedicate more time to the game to get and collect gear and participate in endgame content) I enjoy being competative but i also enjoy playing at my own pace when i choose and want to. being a casual or normal player i fall in with the most likely by now minority but at one point in time majority.....

I started playing back near the begining to middle of ToAU, my first job was whm until i reach ToAU and discovered a wall.... whm's weren't really wanted for events or merits, it was either level rdm or smn newb, because no one wanted downtime during merits and bards were always maxed out for the most part (meaning they weren't available) soon after i discovered drg which has always been a favorite job of mine..... the class played well to how i wnated to play and i took it from there.... alot of people advised me not to become a drg as i wouldnt get many invites... but my friends encouraged me to play it and ignore the elitests.... since then that's what i do.

I spent 3 years aquiring my rajas ring due to the limitations placed upon me of my own choosing because i love drg so much I refused to level other jobs just for the sake of completing the missions( and ps i have tried them i don't enjoy how they play, most of my jobs are level 30 now), because forcing myself to do things in a game i play to i equally love whm but people force me to come to events as whm over drg, so i don't ever use or expose my whm to the public very often and when i do use it, it's generally with friends or people i can trust who won't abuse me as a person just for some heals...

I spent one year leveling 1-75 i remember going to valkurm beach all the time when i was leveling there and i remember the chaos of seeing parties going down left and right shouts for raises and call for helps, i also remember practicing with other newbies using ws and skillchains

I remember hitting 75 and still not having most of my missions done because no one outside of my ls were interested in doing them but hey they were busy because back then doing endgame trying to keep their edge against the hordes of monsters SE were releasing.

Endgame content was meant for hardcore, dedicated people, and for people who are looking for challenges that are team based

Casuals/normal players are looking for content that allows them to continually progress with other like minded people but also allows them to stay just powerful enough that if they choose to they can jump up to new content more challenging content at their choosing. Abyssea did the trick but SE added in gimmicks that made it so you need people to help you unless your a hardcore player or a player who can tolerate leveling many multiple jobs or enjoy it, or dual boxing.... which is against the rules and goes against the spirit of the game

SE also has encouraged a zerg mentality in this game and it wasn't really their fault, but because they started exposing info about the game people started using maths and thus people started using probability instead of hard stats and game mechanics to determine whats best thusly allowing them to put a number on things and allowing the community to create the behavior of bring x class or gtfo.......... SE might of created the game but SE also stressed this game was made around the community. If the community is filled with elitests and people who are hardcore or both and only those people bother posting things relevant to gear and such ten you can expect SE to start tailoring their game around the group thats giving them the most pressure......

IMHO how i see it is both Casuals/norms and hardcore players are starving for content that challenges them but both have very different perspectives on how the gaming world functions.

[Umichi]

oh did i mention the hours and hours of rigours and menotonous leveling and merit grinding i had to do just to even be on par with some players and that was with a slower system....



oh also i've been playing for 5ish years on and off near the end, i finally got a drop that made me money with the release of SoA and am currently halfway to a stage three relic (I'm so excited to aquire gungnir)

[Kormak]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..



Compromise is part of the game >_>

Did I want a BLM, WHM or even a COR which I have an empy for? No.

I levelled them so that I, for the first 2 listed, could join parties for my AF3 armour seals and COR for VW, NNI, Meebles ect...

I always wanted to be a DRK but what is DRK good for in abyssea? nothing that cannot be done better by another job eg. WAR for red !! and BLM for yellow. And it isn't really useful in solo / duo without great gear and/or the other player a support role.

If you think that you can say "I want to be a DRG and go a DRG to everything regardless of what is needed" then no wonder you get nothing done in the 30min-2 hours you play. (DRG was just an example before you say...)


TL: DR - Without compromise you will never get anywhere, not only in this game but with many things in rl also.
/rant

[Sarick]

Compromise is part of the game >_>

TL: DR - Without compromise you will never get anywhere, not only in this game but with many things in rl also.
/rant


First off This isn't real life.

Second this is a game that we're supposed to play for fun.

Read This (http://www.enixorigin.com/square-enix-reaching-rock-bottom/).

Note the bottom of the page. Do you see what fans think? Sorry, this is where the real life compromise is needed. You tell people to compromise on a subscription service that they pay to play. It's the very bread and butter that fills the coffers of the industry. It's common sense if people are unsatisfied most of them go elsewhere without saying anything. It's only the hardcore that stick around to say "WE WANT MORE" the other potential half is lost because it was thrown curve balls.

Since this forum is closed to the public, you only see responses from PAYING customers. Look on other forums or twitter where people openly chat about stocks, other online games and development directions. Open up to how poor development choices ruin markets. Look at the 1980s when Atari was almost completely ruined in the gaming market. I'm sure if you saw the whole picture you'd have a change of tune once you looked around bit.

I'm also sick of people making excuses that all the markets are hurting. This is TRUE however, the companies who do well in a sick market are the ones who listen to their customers/fans. They don't make them COMPROMISE (jump through hoops) because poor design quality or bad implementation on their ends. If you sell garbage you don't stay in business long. If you only sell to a nitch market and fail to expand your core base you also fail eventually. The biggest thing not to do is stop doing what works!

For instance. Old content like COP rings or sky earrings could've killed 2 birds in one stone by allowing players the option to REDO some fights as level capped for an upgraded version. This would've reinvigorated several game elements. As for the trial weapons they could've allowed players to merge 2 of the same weapons for the enhanced versions or something. This is just a few examples of how old content like trials could've be done.

I only see fodder content being added to keep hardcore players interested, because they sure as Flipping don't give a poo about the casuals leaving. Split the difference update older content. You not only make/keep people interested in new content but also invite new membership and interest for old content. Everyone is happy and interested instead of the situation we're in now that requires compromise and frustration. If people where all about fodder or bulk everyone would be eating low quality dog food because its easy to make and cheaper to eat.

If I could I'd give the OP thumbs up on all my accounts/alts. Because they're linked to the same SE account I can only click once.



OFF TOPIC
One good thing to note, the rating for SE's customer service and support went up slightly ;) so something happened in that department. My guess is with all the cut backs there was a wake up call. Unlike the entertainment on the game when jobs are on the line developers and staff shouldn't be optimistic. They should be serious by taking the appropriate actions to survive.

[hiko]

I've realized where the disconnect is, you want to play the game in a way it isn't intended to be played and still feel satisfied at the end of the day. There's really no arguing with that mentality so I'm done.

disagree, there is no intended way to play a game.
there is intended way to get game achievment (here get delve gear) but nobody force you to get it.
Ive played casualy, got up to jeuno TII VW and never done it agin, did one NIUR, no salvageII and never got a GM or game producer tell me :
"you're not playing the game in the intended way, you have to do all those event"


A casual player is someone who plays in their spare time, does their missions and other tasks, makes friends, and plays the job they like with who they like. Someone who expects to get something done in the timeframe their life allows at their own pace.
agree, as long as you don't expect to get the latest gears in the first month after it's release.
It's just like someone get a "basic" job and expect to be able to buy a Laferrari after 1month



People who just don't feel like farming millions of gil or have bad luck want an alternative weapon option that scales better with the new content. Trials of the Magians is the perfect route for this. R/M/E and Delve weapons will still have their throne, so to speak, so no one has their toes stepped on, and everyone gets to enjoy playing the game.
skirmish is what you're looking for



When I take a look back and think about how the content level steps up as you continue to move through more challenging content, I feel that there isn't a smooth transition.

In particular, we want to adjust the difficulty for small groups participating in lair and colonization reives and the difficulty associated with accessing Skirmish.

/..../

Also, one part of smoothing out the content level will be adjusted in a maintenance to be carried out of the end of this week: we will be adding a fixed probability to obtain the items needed to enter Skirmishes (Simulacrum Segments) from Lair and Colonization Reives. (This adjustment is unrelated to the current rules associated with coalition assignments, gathering, and Soul Pyres.)




Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons


you forgot skirmishes weapon, wich are a big step up over pre adoulin weapon

[Umichi]

I shouldn't have to compromise, this game was created so all jobs work with each other and can accomplish tasks with a basic pty set-up, yet time and again SE has set-up gimmicks that make people pick and choose what jobs they have to come as in order to accomplish tasks..

this is about being who you want to be not what other people want you to be because "That's how we want it" or "That's how it works"

Sure can't live life without compromise, but if you don't stand up for things and refuse to compromise then the mentality stays there still in the community and if you compromise all the time you also conform. I refuse to conform.

[Zagen]

disagree, there is no intended way to play a game.
there is intended way to get game achievment (here get delve gear) but nobody force you to get it.
Ive played casualy, got up to jeuno TII VW and never done it agin, did one NIUR, no salvageII and never got a GM or game producer tell me :
"you're not playing the game in the intended way, you have to do all those event"
Just because you don't have to follow the intended design doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It should be obvious there's an intended way to play any game.

Edit: I forgot they actually created a table as reference for the intended progression:


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33458-Follow-up-Level-99-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-and-Walk-of-Echoes-Weapons?p=432132&viewfull=1#post432132

Figures they'd use HTML for the table instead of BB code so we could actually quote it...

[Zeldar]

My issue is more poor elemental staves :( Hell, I sacrifice 8 inventory slots to have these weapons, and now you can get a better blm staff from delve, even skirmish! Oh well, i guess I'll gain a few more inventory slots :(

[Sarick]

It should be obvious there's an intended way to play any game.

Its also obvious that your explanation for everything is to play what you consider the intended way. The topic ask for alternate paths that worked in the past. There is clearly a lot of support for the original post. I don't see why you object to this so much. It's not like it'll interfere with your opinion of whats the intended way to play the game. :rolleyes:


If TotM remain relevant until the end of FFXI what's the point in designing any other weapons?

Because it was a system everyone had/has access to and it worked very well.


this is about being who you want to be not what other people want you to be because "That's how we want it" or "That's how it works"

Kudos.. Umichi

[Zagen]

Its also obvious that your explanation for everything is to play what you consider the intended way. The topic ask for alternate paths that worked in the past. There is clearly a lot of support for the original post. I don't see why you object to this so much. It's not like it'll interfere with your opinion of whats the intended way to play the game. :rolleyes:
How is it to play my way? I explained several alternatives on ways to get things done based on SE's idea of progression, you might want to reread everything I've said as I don't think I ever said anything to the effect of "do it this way or you're doing it wrong".

I object to the idea because the logic in extending the TotM to benefit "casual" players as you and others call them when it doesn't actually benefit them is terrible at best. Thus far those using "casual" as a definition have done so to define a player who is still catching up on content and/or has limited play times. How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit that type of player?

I mentioned in one of my posts that maybe people who're for this idea expect SE to be lazy about it and just do something like _ites x40 for the next step. At that point sure it would benefit players who're behind or don't have much play time and maybe that's the disconnect. People here who are in favor of TotM seem to like the whole system which goes beyond collecting X items and calling it a day. If you're expecting or wanting it to just be something lame like that then why not be up front and say that?

Edit:

Because it was a system everyone had/has access to and it worked very well.
Yeah it sure is, I mean it only took me 4 months to finish my STR path sword and I have a fairly large window where I can squeeze in a few hours to play most days.

[Hawklaser]

Really, the biggest reason why I support an expansion of the Trail of the Magians system, is because it lets a more casual player set goals they can more realistically achieve in regards to weapons for the most part, and most of the weapons don't require a lot of outside assistance to work towards. Most of the ones that need outside help are the full Emp, or the multi attack ones.

My earlier posts were more for showing that there are very limited options for someone that is not currently geared that are very interesting if one is not able to get help easily. Which is why some expansion to the system would be beneficial, doesn't need to be much higher than they are currently though.

[Sarick]

How is it to play my way? I explained several alternatives on ways to get things done based on SE's idea of progression, you might want to reread everything I've said as I don't think I ever said anything to the effect of "do it this way or you're doing it wrong".


REREAD?

Please pay close attention to the quotes below while you parse through them.


It really just takes some research, planning, and getting people together to get the new content done it isn't actually that hard. Everyday it gets less hard as those hardcore players figure out how exactly the new gimmicks work and they aren't even jerks about it they make their knowledge free for all to read.


The game is broken because people who don't want to conform to the player established "cookie cutter" setups are too damn lazy to lead so they avoid conformity and increase diversity.


Just because you don't have to follow the intended design doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It should be obvious there's an intended way to play any game.


I've realized where the disconnect is, you want to play the game in a way it isn't intended to be played and still feel satisfied at the end of the day. There's really no arguing with that mentality so I'm done.

Advice or what? You said everything quoted above just click the little blue icons beside your name in the quotes they links to the exact post where the quotes where taken from. You can see I did reread everything. I know exactly what your disposition is.

It looks like your saying we need to conform to established setups. NO, That can't be right it's not telling people they're playing wrong because there is an established way to play.:rolleyes:


I object to the idea because the logic in extending the TotM to benefit "casual" players as you and others call them when it doesn't actually benefit them is terrible at best. Thus far those using "casual" as a definition have done so to define a player who is still catching up on content and/or has limited play times. How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit that type of player?

Let's do a reversal here and see how well you comply with the intended way. Like you said when was the last time you heard someone shouting for help finishing to finish an elemental staff trial? This is what makes it casual. Outside farming gil for crafted SoA gear other content like trials isn't relevant anymore. Only newer content is worth investing time in.

It isn't only trials but the b-line direction things are going. It's also not about living in the past its about keeping ALL content relevant in some fashion or another. I say again WHAT ELSE IS THERE? A new expansion and suddenly everything else is a {big wet stinker noise}.:confused:


This game isn't intended to be played 80 hours a week to achieve a goal. The players that play this way blowing through content are DOING IT WRONG! They need to slow down because it's obvious SE can't keep up. They need to conform to a more casual way or find another game. They also need to finish all older content first before asking for new content.

The game isn't intended for players that have real life activities outside of the game. When we log on the game every time there is even a MESSAGE left by the developers for everyone. This specifically tells players not to neglect real life for the game.

Before I go on you see what I did? This comment made by me was an opposite attitude of what you promote attempting to say conform to how casuals play. You want players to conform to a more brisk competitive style and associate this as the successful development path. You also clearly think the game doesn't need these alternatives. Haven't you been reading? Most of these trials players can do without any outside assistance on their own time without pickup groups or asking/shouting/joining pickup help.

The development paths you promote are also PURELY based on new content from the expansion. You don't support development to make growth in older content. That in itself supports tunnel vision design/game play. The trials where very good at letting players build weapons they wanted when they had time. When trial weapons where relevant all content was used to complete them. This spreading out the completion of goals across all zones and expansions. These where still useful even with RME weapons being superior.

Mark my words if players could convert those trial weapons to babbles/gems to augment other gear with their stats the trial system would compete with the seekers content like the XBOX 360 and PS3 duked it out this gen.

Re-balenced/updated trials would make ALL content relevant in multiple fronts unlike the paths that are chucked up from the new expansion. Look at it this way. When abbysea came the trials where relevant compatible across the board weapons. When new levels caps where introduced the trails followed suit! Now they're like level 50 gear compared to LVL 99 gear with a lot of waste.

Since the direction of the game is going for gear instead of levels. Gear is leveling up instead of EXP levels. Trials opened up as level caps where unlocked. The trials should be following suit with equivalent gains as the standards for gear qualities increase. We're not leveling up exp wise anymore so the current system doesn't allow the level 99 trial weapons to advance with the game.

When new content stages are being created as a replacement for EXP levels equivalent trials should be also unlocked for consistency. I don't know about you but I liked the opportunity to have so so so many paths to make something I wanted on my time. I didn't have to shout for help or participate in ESTABLISHED cookie cutter party setup groups either.

[Umichi]

the beauty of this game 1-75 was the fact that the diversity of play existed, now we only focus on one area, being a casualplayer i find doing the same thing all the time boring, i used to enjoy doing garrison, ballista, finishing up quests.... and then <insert time here> comes along and bam dynamis is starting with the ls you run with, 2-3ish hours completed i got myself some gear helped my mates out with building their current relic project and i got to do a little bit of pvp (which i enjoy doing)

now it's Log on > do imprints > do reives, look at all this time i have hey anyone wanna do dynamis? no thanks busy doing new content, let alone no invites to pug groups for fractures which everyone apparantly thinks is easy, even from my skill level i can identify that this requires good effort to complete. oh what's next hey lets do a skirmish...... wrong i don't have 10milish to burn every week and I don't know anyone who does them who can afford them, I've also only found 2 simulcrums both matching. After trying to trade one for a different piece to no avail for a couple days I sold em both and bought me halfway to third stage relic.

before i used to be able to dabble in a little bit of sky, nyzule, sea, dynamis, assault, leveling, meriting, questing, BCNMS, brenner, ballista, garrison for loot that was relevant to the content. then abyssea hit and all of that still mattered, then SoA hit and now 0 armour diversity pre abyssea (barring pieces that actualy help your job abilities and gear that are just superior because of how they were made). Now you can pretty much level up really fast without the need for most of the gear (even at 75) and as soon as you hit 86 bam abyssea cruour gear and you can do endgame content, which only involves abyssea and audolin now..

[Zagen]

Advice or what? You said everything quoted above just click the little blue icons beside your name in the quotes they links to the exact post where the quotes where taken from. You can see I did reread everything. I know exactly what your disposition is.
Herp-a-derp I'll play along.


I'm sorry are you all the way up to date on the previous stuff already? I mean if you are then how aren't you able to clear the new stuff. Did you miss the part where I mentioned the group I did the matamata with was compromised of people who are far from "well geared" (far from caught up). It really just takes some research, planning, and getting people together to get the new content done it isn't actually that hard. Everyday it gets less hard as those hardcore players figure out how exactly the new gimmicks work and they aren't even jerks about it they make their knowledge free for all to read.

Read the bold, that's advice on how to complete literally everything in the game when you aren't trying to be a trail blazer. Here's some links to help with the research:
BG-Wiki (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Main_Page) - Most up to date confirmed data on monsters.
Gamer Escape FFXI Wiki (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/) - Not as up to date as BG Wiki but still has a lot of good info in a different layout.
FFXI Wikia (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) - Too many ads for my personal taste and needless redirects but again filled with good info, sometimes more up to date than Gamer Escape but still behind BG Wiki.

Let's actually look at the whole quote for the next 2 you chose to pick apart:


Ok new set of steps for those who don't believe in "the ends justify the means" type of logic.

Step 1: Stay on whatever job you want.
Step 2: Research T4/5 Delve NMs (lots of info already out there about the gimmicks and setups on how to take them down).
Step 3: Shout for a group based on research done in Step 2.
Step 4: Go fight said monster for the relevant KI.
Step 5: Research Delve Fracture farming (not much to learn pretty much merit style fighting with a PLD or 2 holding NMs.
Step 6: Build your Delve Weapons.

Congrats you now have the new time sink weapons that are even easier to make than TotM because you don't have to wait for NMs to spawn/respawn (yay pop/instance NMs for the KIs), you don't have to wait for the right time of day (in game), and you definitely don't have to wait for the right of the year (in game) to ensure plentiful weather you want. Don't even have to kill hundreds to thousands of monsters as you could in theory just by all your airlixirs/plasm (via eating pop items).

Repeat the steps above with T1,2, or 3 Delve NMs and you'll also unlock the Delve armors.

The game is broken because people who don't want to conform to the player established "cookie cutter" setups are too damn lazy to lead so they avoid conformity and increase diversity.

Read the bold.

Another of my posts where advice on alternative ways to get new stuff acquired/done:

...5 is by far the easiest to do if you're smart about it. What that means is that while a SMN could walk away from a reive with 3-4k Bayld (my lol SMN has done this clearing paths for Delve) it makes more sense to do the Coalition quests. For example Mummer's Coalition starter mission is collect a Lost Article KI from Ceizak Battlegrounds or Yahse Hunting Grounds. All you do is find the Lost Article NPC target (not on wide scan that i recall), touch it, and you have the KI. Then turn it in for 1,500/2,700/3,800 Bayld depending on how many tags you chose when you picked the mission. Also many quests reward you with Bayld for example the 2 quests involving every waypoint in each of the Adoulin zones...

As you said feel free to click the view post link as there's actually a bit more advice in that post. And post was in response to comments on my original post with a list of progression of how I see it. Not just new content but old content as well, see here:

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?

I understand at one point SE said TotM would always remain relevant but they also said BST would get the pet with the most votes when asked about new pets or how SMN were supposed to get new Avatars over a year ago. SE never goes back on their word nope not ever.

As to new players not staying that's simple, the MMORPG model "pay 2 play" is dead. WoW is feeling it and Blizzard has already admitted they expect to keep losing players. I sure hope 14 is prepared to switch models but that's a whole other topic all together.

Note the bold, I even mention some parts can be skipped or done in different order meaning there isn't a way that must be followed, just more of a suggested route.

Now here's something interesting instead of failing to prove me a liar how about you put some thought into questions I brought as you're one of the "casual" players so you'd be the best to give the answers, here I trimmed down to just the questions but you can read the whole post again by clicking the view post link :)


How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit the type of player with limited play time?

If you're expecting or wanting it to just be something lame like collecting X items then why not be up front and say that?

[Sarick]

Now here's something interesting instead of failing to prove me a liar how about you put some thought into questions I brought as you're one of the "casual" players so you'd be the best to give the answers, here I trimmed down to just the questions but you can read the whole post again by clicking the view post link :)

The only thing you done is re-post "do this content" and followed up with listed a strategies. For the love of god did everything I say go woosh? You're practicing some serious selective reading or just plain ignoring the topic of interest entirely. The whole point is the lack of diversity that trials offered.

The original poster as that trails get updated and rebalanced. Your logic is dead set on trying to get people to conform. People want the trials to be relevant. You're not open supporting this.

You are unconsciously saying "NO, I DON'T WANT THEM TO UPDATE OLD CONTENT PEOPLE NEED TO BE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE AND PLAY NEW CONTENT." It has nothing to do with casual interest or the goals of this topic. I've provided proof of this by linking multiple quotes.

[Zagen]

The only thing you done is re-post "do this content" and followed up with listed a strategies. For the love of god did everything I say go woosh? You're practicing some serious selective reading or just plain ignoring the topic of interest entirely. The whole point is the lack of diversity that trials offered.

The original poster as that trails get updated and rebalanced. Your logic is dead set on trying to get people to conform. People want the trials to be relevant. You're not open supporting this.

You are unconsciously saying "NO, I DON'T WANT THEM TO UPDATE OLD CONTENT PEOPLE NEED TO BE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE AND PLAY NEW CONTENT." It has nothing to do with casual interest or the goals of this topic. I've provided proof of this by linking multiple quotes.

The thing is that old content is still 100% relevant for it's phase in a player's progression, just like how weapons/armor from 30-75 is still relevant should a player fancy EXPing outside of Abyssea.

So again:


How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit the type of player with limited play time?
If you're expecting or wanting it to just be something lame like collecting X items then why not be up front and say that?


These questions pertain to the OP's logic of TotM being great for casual players. Answer them as that's the only way you'd be able to enlighten me. Anyone who finds themselves to fit this "casual" player feel free to answer. I'll even go first even though I don't consider myself casual:

1) It doesn't outside of the Weapon Skill paths or until you get to the current final 3 stages of collecting Geodes/_ites as you can farm to make gil and buy them removing the day/weather requirement from those stages.

2) If these were to be further upgraded to match new weapons then I would expect them to require killing unique monsters in SoA zones. Why? Because there is no reason to facilitate making a player even more over powered when taking on old content that was designed to be taken on without SoA weapons/armor.

[Sarick]

The thing is that old content is still 100% relevant for it's phase in a player's progression, just like how weapons/armor from 30-75 is still relevant should a player fancy EXPing outside of Abyssea.

So if they're still relevant why is the developer creating new content? Why there was such a big fuss over RME content being made inferior.

Oh I get it. You don't want the developers to update content like trials because it'll take resources from the unfinished content in SoA that was rushed out.

When the game was updated old content was always relevant. In fact as new level cap limit breakers where increased trials followed. Not the case with the SoA expansion yet as trials are going nowhere. New content is isn't for everyone no matter how you spiel your knowledge.

[Demon6324236]

So if they're still relevant why is the developer creating new content? Why there was such a big fuss over RME content being made inferior.

Oh I get it. You don't want the developers to update content like trials because it'll take resources from the unfinished content in SoA that was rushed out.Trial weapons and RMEs are not the same thing, the level of dedication and work to make them is on a completely different level, that is why they are treated differently. If Trial weapons took the same amount of work and time to make then I would be saying the same thing, a lot of jobs are losing very valuable weapons from these being left behind, nuking staves are being outdated, PDT weapons are being outdated, Pet weapons in general are being outdated for the most part. Do I want them enhanced? Yes, personally I would love it if my PDT Sword for RDM did not go in the trash, at the same time, I understand what SE is trying to do and why your argument you just gave is flawed.


When the game was updated old content was always relevant. In fact as new level cap limit breakers where increased trailed followed. Not the case with the SoA expansion yet as trials are going nowhere. New content is isn't for everyone no matter how you spiel your knowledge.Your right, its not for everyone, its for everyone willing to work to get there. Its a latter to climb, SE has made it clear they expect us to climb their latter, some people will skip around, doing things like Delve without touching Adoulin Armors or Skirmish weapons, I myself have done it! Others who are less skilled, have less time, are overall not as well geared or simply can not get a good group together, they have to climb it in a slower manner. The expansion is not meant for everyone to just jump right into, it was made for people to progress into, if you have not done enough other content you will make it nowhere, if you have, you can advance through the easier stuff to get to the harder stuff. He has explained this to you a few times now it seems, but you are refusing to listen, the content was not designed for you to just jump right into Delve, it was made so you did other content to get strong enough to do it. Everything before is still relevant because its all stepping stones to reach Delve and other Adoulin content. Is it the best anymore? No, does some of it take a bit of time? Yes, but the matter of fact is that it is a stepping stone, and comparing trials to RMEs in this case does not work because a trial weapon for a hardcore player takes less than a week, sometimes as low as a couple of days, while a RME will take anywhere between a week(Emp) to 2~3 Months(Relic) or even 6+ Months(Mythic) which is much more time. Weapons that take that long can not be stepping stones, other weapons can be, and something has to be, basic ToM weapons simply fit the spot, and so far as stepping stones go, they are probably the best.

[Sarick]

No the content wasn't designed for me it's supposed to be designed for everyone. If everyone can't play it in a way that's enjoyable to them then they've failed in the SoA expansion from the start. There is more then enough support around here that says the original poster made a suggestion worth investment. You don't get it, you never will get it.

[Zagen]

No the content wasn't designed for me it's supposed to be designed for everyone. If everyone can't play it in a way that's enjoyable to them then they've failed in the SoA expansion from the start. There is more then enough support around here that says the original poster made a suggestion worth investment. You don't get it, you never will get it.

I guess you missed the part when SE announced SoA, that it was intended for end game players...

[Sarick]

I guess you missed the part when SE announced SoA, that it was intended for end game players...

So then updated trials would be the perfect medicine this game needs. The statement you just made sums up the need for more casual/alternate content. You just admitted this content isn't for everyone by both your standards and SE's. Your comment only solidifies what I said in Post #66 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=435701&viewfull=1#post435701)

Demonjustin: the first sentence responds to your post as well.

[Zagen]

So then updated trials would be the perfect medicine this game needs. The statement you just made sums up the need for more casual/alternate content. You just admitted this content isn't for everyone by both your standards and SE's. Your comment only solidifies what I said in Post #66 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=435701&viewfull=1#post435701)

Actually no it doesn't. Right or wrong that's the way SE decided to make with SoA.

If you aren't ready to take on SoA content why aren't you working on the older content that gives you gear to help make you ready for SoA content? TotM don't need to be updated to take on that content.

You still haven't tried to answer my questions by the way.

[Sarick]

Actually no it doesn't. Right or wrong that's the way SE decided to make with SoA.

Flawed logic is always flawed. It's still play hardcore for pixels or GTFO. That's why people want alternatives its about keeping all content relevant. In your view the ends justifies the means for one short sided view of only participate SoA content. So How about this maybe the developers should just remove all the old content altogether that's 75+ except SoA content.

If you look recently merits where upgraded. Merits affect all content across the board. Merits where introduced when players capped at 75 think about how they've grown with the game. The Mog bag has grown to 80/80 and more inventory has been added each expansion. Several game play elements have been upgraded al of which where introduced with older content. The game needs to grow as a whole not just the singled out expansion.

Look at the game like grades in school if you have 10 assignments each representing expansion content SOA now amounts to over 90% of the games overall appeal (grade) the other 10% of the content is on the brink of a failing grade. The steps available aren't diverse and most of the content is rotting because poor implementation. It's been like this a while its it's a key factor in a failing project.

It shows that the game is gasping for it's last breath to TRY it's hardest to appeal to whats left of it's dieing content. You know how stocks always rise just before the market crashes. People with inside information sell before the crash. If they wanted to keep people happy they'd make everything as diverse as possible to broaden the interest of everyone across the board not just create one direction. This is how investors protect themselves by diversifying their portfolios.

Again. You don't get it. Read this (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=435573&viewfull=1#post435573) post the author explains things in a different way.

[Zagen]

Flawed logic is always flawed.
Hmm, I'm surprised something we can agree on, that said it was SE's decision and there were (more than likely) good reasons to make it end game player friendly. I could argue for their decision or against it, there is no point in doing that though as SE has proven time and time again to be stubborn so I roll with it. If I couldn't roll with it I'd just quit. Yeah it's a crappy option but sometimes that's what it takes.

I have no idea what the percentage is between end game players and non end game players but if the non end game players was a larger population I'd imagine they'd be focusing on more stuff for them instead of rolling back the difficulty scales as time goes on and new end game stuff comes out.


If you look recently merits where upgraded. Merits affect all content across the board. Merits where introduced when players capped at 75 think about how they've grown with the game. The Mog bag has grown to 80/80 and more inventory has been added each expansion. Several game play elements have been upgraded al of which where introduced with older content. The game needs to grow as a whole not just the singled out expansion.

This is interesting that you brought these up as they actually apply to the type of player like me, "the ends justify the means" player who levels a lot of jobs. For example a player only has time to play DRG do they honestly need any merits besides polearm under combat skills? Do they need any Magic Skill Merits? Could be useful but not "needed".

If you're only focusing on one or a few jobs instead of trying to be as versatile as possible why do you need a possible 480 inventory slots not counting moogle slips?


Look at the game like grades in school if you have 10 assignments each representing expansion content SOA now amounts to over 90% of the games overall appeal (grade) the other 10% of the content is on the brink of a failing grade. The steps available aren't diverse and most of the content is rotting because poor implementation. It's been like this a while its it's a key factor in a failing project.

Using your school analogy you should be looking at SoA as High School no as assignments. You don't just skip Elementary and Middle School and go to High School.

Edit:

Again. You don't get it. Read this (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=435573&viewfull=1#post435573) post the author explains things in a different way.

I still am able to dabble in everything Umichi mentions well I should say everything I care to do, so all except for brenner, ballista, or garrison but then again those were never popular during the 75 cap days.

[Sarick]

Using your school analogy you should be looking at SoA as High School no as assignments. You don't just skip Elementary and Middle School and go to High School.

I don't really have much to disagree with in your last post. I do want to point out that when you took and marked SoA as high school you made huge mistake. The level 75 was once high school SoA has become college content. What people are asking for diversity (trials). Its like asking for a trade school education or a simple a community college. A side grade for people who aren't following a tunnel vision the new developers choose.

Trial where always ment to be good enough side grade weapons not limited to a single expansion. Players had choices where to complete them. Some places had their benefits others didn't. The trials I hated the most where solo NM farming and WS trials. Elemental ones had a set routine that usually made people work together. It was a good friendly thing because people wanted to team up for mutual benefit. Fire trials where designed poorly though. The developers could've been a bit more permissive or increased weather to be merciful.

[Zagen]

Picking out the only part I have an issue with:

A side grade for people who aren't following a tunnel vision the new developers choose.
If you aren't actively participating in SoA content why do you need TotM to be upgraded to side grades of items designed to be used in SoA content?

[Sarick]

Picking out the only part I have an issue with:

If you aren't actively participating in SoA content why do you need TotM to be upgraded to side grades of items designed to be used in SoA content?

All content should remain valid and grow not just seekers. If you read back I mentioned this a few times. Other then the addition of new warp points in the old content is pretty much the same. I explained how this could be done.

[Zagen]

All content should remain valid and grow not just seekers. If you read back I mentioned this a few times. Other then the addition of new warp points in the old content it's pretty much the same.

Okay so they idea is create something like Sky/Sea 2.0 not just TotM side-grade to new gear. If SE went that route I see the point but SE hasn't mentioned it at all so it leaves me at there's no point in upgrading TotM.

[Sarick]

Okay so they idea is create something like Sky/Sea 2.0 not just TotM side-grade to new gear. If SE went that route I see the point but SE hasn't mentioned it at all so it leaves me at there's no point in upgrading TotM.

I think the original post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=433389&viewfull=1#post433389) made a good enough argument for this comment.

Also please look back, I suggested allowing players the opportunity to redo content with level caps or some other alternative restriction for the option to improve/update those versions. You don't need to change the content just attach something to it so it can be augmented more.

That was the bases of trials. It'd generate interest for older content and attract even players that have already completed the content.

[Zagen]

I think the original post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=433389&viewfull=1#post433389) made a good enough argument for this comment.

Also please look back, I suggested allowing players the opportunity to redo content with level caps or some other alternative restriction for the option to improve/update those versions. You don't need to change the content just attach something to it so it can be augmented more.

That was the bases of trials. It'd generate interest for older content and attract even players that have already completed the content.

This is a completely different idea than what I just mentioned. Trying to use TotM as a way to keep old content relevant isn't going to work. In the world of FFXI old content is a stepping stone to the new content, that's how SE wants it.

[Randnum]

This is a completely different idea than what I just mentioned. Trying to use TotM as a way to keep old content relevant isn't going to work. In the world of FFXI old content is a stepping stone to the new content, that's how SE wants it.

Too bad that's not how WE want it.

[Zagen]

Too bad that's not how WE want it.
Oh? Do tell. I'd love to hear how exactly the majority of the players don't want it that way.

Edit: Don't get me wrong if it was done well I wouldn't mind going through old content.

[Randnum]

Oh? Do tell. I'd love to hear how exactly the majority of the players don't want it that way.

Edit: Don't get me wrong if it was done well I wouldn't mind going through old content.

I didn't specify the 'we', any more than you specified.

To speak for myself and all my friends in game (that'd be a whopping 19 people), old content is better than the new, it is enjoyable and has interesting variations, and the large variety allows us to never run out of things to do, overall.

How exactly? Content is challenging not because the enemy is harder to kill and you need the bigger weapon. Content is challenging when the situation is complex and you need more than the bigger weapon, it just helps you deal with the complex situation.

But hey, I come from a group of people who like to Campaign because in many zones it's like a military realtime strategy mini game...

Oh wait that is what it is.

[Sarick]

In the world of FFXI old content is a stepping stone to the new content, that's how SE wants it.

I think that falls along the lines of poor implementation. It's one of the reasons the game lost it's frill towards new commers and another reason why the game is gasping so hard to maintain it's audience. The developers have forgotten how to recreate content. Instead they've gone for making a bigger weapon for bigger monsters. A loop purely meant to suck in a select group of core fans.

No more diversity because the stepping stone is a leap to end game content. It's much like joining a monopoly game with everyone owning 90% of the board having hotels on everything. Within a few turns the new player joining the game already in progress is bankrupted. New comers, returning players and casuals are a lost stepping stone. Old content isn't relevant, most players only care for #1.

No one wants to stay in a rat race or join one that's this hostile towards them. This is a subscription service they might as well join Free Realms, or DC Universe Online. At least those games have content growth that remain relevant to the overall world not just a single expansion.

Trials are something everyone had access to even casuals up until the point where the weapons needed stones. Up till that point weapon trials only had to kill monsters. They didn't need gil large groups of allies or special setups weird KI collecting task. Most of them could build weapons with little or nothing in a few days or a week. I myself managed to create two wind agility daggers to 99 in <24 hours. (weather was awesome that day!) Even the starter weapon was free. Without content updates they don't even amount towards a decent stepping stone.

[RAIST]

How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit the type of player with limited play time?
If you're expecting or wanting it to just be something lame like collecting X items then why not be up front and say that?


These questions pertain to the OP's logic of TotM being great for casual players. Answer them as that's the only way you'd be able to enlighten me. Anyone who finds themselves to fit this "casual" player feel free to answer. I'll even go first even though I don't consider myself casual:

1) It doesn't outside of the Weapon Skill paths or until you get to the current final 3 stages of collecting Geodes/_ites as you can farm to make gil and buy them removing the day/weather requirement from those stages.

2) If these were to be further upgraded to match new weapons then I would expect them to require killing unique monsters in SoA zones. Why? Because there is no reason to facilitate making a player even more over powered when taking on old content that was designed to be taken on without SoA weapons/armor.

Mostly to the first question. Not sure the value of having things on a predictable schedule is getting through. This is VERY important for a casual player, as they can research and plan when/where to work on their trial, and when/where to work on other content. And yes....for probly 90% or more of Magians, it IS predictable in some fashion. Lots of tools/mechanics to help one plan better for completing stages...be that a game calender app, weather tracking, or using a wiki to help track respawn times/conditions for an NM and planning according to the last known conditions in which the target spawned. This is geared almost specifically with the more casual player in mind. They quite literally can progress according to their own schedule, with virtually no reliance on other players (unless they can't solo a target well, they may team up with friends or other people they find that happen to be there for the same targets).

In contrast, the hardcore player may have no issue with standing around shouting, trying to get into pickups, or pushing his/her friends to help build a higher tier weapon--in most cases it's easier for them because there is a lot of tit-for-tat trade off for doing these things. They are in with a crowd that frequently teams up to do the types of things they need done, and so are more comfortable/familiar with the expected protocols for participating in such grouping events. On the other hand, the casual player is more familiar/comfortable with frequently being left to their own devices (unless they have a few friends on the same schedule they team up with from time to time, or put up a /seacom or search other /seacom's and casually team up with others there for the same targets).

So basically, you have always had two vastly different camps. One group has become very dependant on this more laid back, low-pressure approach to gearing and progressing through content. The other group is more accustomed to a more aggressive, faster pace, "scratching each other's backs" approach to barrelling through content. The rewards have always been appropriate to the approach taken for progressing. The slow and steady is stuck with a slow and steady progression through content--but always have the expectation of being able to complete it on their schedule/skill level. The aggressive players are better able to rush through the content, and are more open to the challenge of facing an overpowering foe in order to progress significantly. The main difference here being one group that enjoys a slow /steady progression while facing moderate difficulty along the way, and another group who embraces hardcore mechanics and revel in the prospect of facing a foe that can really f*ck up their day at the drop of a hat.

Basically, in the past the content difficulty and availble gearing options have scaled appropriately for both camps. Both groups could always see a path for progression that suited their expectations and playstyles. But with SOA, that balance has been grossly upset. Now there is a tremendous gap between the groups. The die-hards are rushing it, completing it, and will soon be tired of it and not want to revisit the older entry levels once they've moved on to the newer, harder tiers and are focused on me-me-me and trying to get the next tier of new shinies. The casual, slower progressing players will be reaching the point when there is basically no one willing to lend them a helping hand when they will desperately need it because their gear has not scaled to an appropriate level against the new challenges as has been the case up until now. As content, level caps, and new gears were introduced over the last few years, Magians progressed on par with those advancements, keeping the gear relevant and balanced with the new challenges. That is clearly not the case now with what has happened with SoA.

THAT is what is at the crux of the problem here. The major shift in scaling--or, rather the lack of scaling-- for the players in relation to the new content. Pet issues, accuracy issues, damage output issues, damage mitigation issues, all of it stacking up to big reward for effort issues. HAve to see the bigger picture, projected further down the line as the trend continues with future SoA content additions. At present, it is all grossly skewed to benefit the die-hards and to penalize anyone who is not. What is at risk here if they don't take corrective measures soon, is the potential to drive out anyone who is not "1337". At the very least, it risks dissuading a lot of people from participating in a significant enough way to progresss through the new content at a satisfactory enough rate to keep them subscribing. Effectively, locking a lot of people into just doing older content that soon becomes unrelevant enough for them to continue playing the game. It is basically setting things up for more attrition, which is not good for a company that has been bleeding money for the last 3 or 4 years.

[Sarick]

It is basically setting things up for more attrition, which is not good for a company that has been bleeding money for the last 3 or 4 years.

I cut out a lot of this but wanted to give RAIST KUDOS, spot on. You enveloped everything and put it in a context thats relevant and understandable. You've clearly been reading this and thinking about it quite a bit.

[Demonviper]

I'm getting rather tired of hearing "Look, stop complaining and go do delve if you want a decent weapon" I for one have little to no interest in taking part in the event and I think it's rather sad that the game now boils down to one or two new content events that have made the wide range of existing content obsolete. I have absolutely no intention of taking part in events I do not enjoy or indeed, leveling or playing jobs that aren't enjoyable to me as a method of gearing up my main, I've been that route with the old HNMLS scene back at 75 and I'm no longer willing to do something I don't enjoy a hundred times to gain reward that benefit my main. :rolleyes: For me this expansion seems to have made the game far smaller and much, much less pleasant to play.

TLDR: I don't want to do delve and I'm butthurt that the game and elements of the player base seem hell bent on that being the only way to avoid being gimp.

[Randnum]

Yeah, also, you have to note that casual players easily can just 'stop'. Act like an expansion never happened. After all, all our old content can be beaten by the gear appropriate for the old content. But that's just it.

While some of us can entertain ourselves for months with everything that existed before SoA, the simple fact is that the new expansion gives us nothing. For many casual players, they have to question if SoA gives them anything at all (not saying it doesn't, one way or another).

I sort of understand it, because I can't think of anyone who will quit because 'the new expansion only has like one thing I care about', so there's a good business sense in catering to the hardcore first, but it's just plain strange to cater to the hardcore only (we will have to see how Monstrosity and the new 'farming' works out but these are fundamentally different types of content anyway).

The other reason is really insidious though. A casual player that has kept themselves at least within some 'acceptable range' of gear/weapons and performance, can respond to a shout, particularly when the group is near full, or has some of their more 'hardcore' friends in it, and expect a response of 'eh sure come along you look decent at least' from some people.

They do get to experience this new, large scale content when it happens to fit into their schedule without needing to climb the ladder in the same way. Sure they're 'being a leech' by some people's standards by not having top gear, but they could usually expect their output to be a contribution. At least enough that 'rejecting them and waiting longer' wasn't automatically a better option.

By not providing as many ways for casuals to 'keep up' without sliding more to the 'hardcore' side of the scale, it increases the rift between the two types of players when dealing with heavier content, and technically makes building groups and fostering friendships harder.

"Hey that guy's doing pretty good for someone without X weapon." - can lead to friendships or at least allies.

"Why did you even invite them? They can't do anything to this." - can easily lead to indifference or worse, toward that player.

We don't need that rift increased, and this is speaking as someone who doesn't even care about it. There's simply no equation in which making casual players completely irrelevant to the point of 'incompetence' in new content can benefit the game as a whole.

Well, at 'least' everyone will have a weapon from the next tier eventually when they are more affordable, right?

[Bardiel]

This entire thread is quite possibly the best discussion I've read in a very long time, as most MMO-related forums tend to lean towards the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" end of the spectrum. Thank you, ALL of you participating, for the excellent read.

That said, I'd consider myself in the casual camp. I mostly solo or low-man things I'm interested in. Also, I run an event shell where we've worked on several members' Empyrean weapons, helped a few of them get Relics, even managed to eek out a Gandiva for myself.

Then SoA was released.

Within a matter of weeks on my server, nearly all Voidwatch shouts decreased and on some days completely stopped. Neo-Nyzul shouts are fewer still. This, I believe, is one of the points several of you are trying to make: the mad dash for SoA-related "god-gear" has all but killed every other group event in FFXI.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've tried Reives on several jobs, with and without friends there, and found it pretty ridiculous. A friend mentioned it was a lot like Campaign but the way mob hate works (for fails to) in Reives proves otherwise. I even joined a shout or three for Delve. For the remainder of this post, I'll use my Ranger as an example. I am absolutely not an expert at knowing how Delve works, but as a Ranger, I expect to shoot a mob and it takes damage. One group I was in fought that Oboron. In full Ranged Accuracy+ gear with sushi and fully merited as far as I'm concerned there should be ZERO reason I miss a shot and certainly not weapon skills (as far as I know, Jishnu's Radiance doesn't have an accuracy penalty).

1-2 shots would land for minimal damage out of 12-15 shots fired. NOW I understand why SE changed Recycle and Scavenge! I also fully missed not one but TWO Jishnu's Radiance. THAT is ridiculous. and I was so infuriated by the end of it I wanted to crack my Gandiva in half and throw it away. I wasn't the only one either, as fellow Ranger was with me and experiencing the same "fun, exciting new content."

That example, along with the lack of fun to be had doing Reives on any particular job cemented the following in my mind:

1) to be successful at Reives, you must either be an Aegis/Ochain PLD or have one on-call (thankfully, I do have several in my LS).
2) Delve is a vicious circle: to be reasonable at it, you need to have Delve gear. To get Delve gear, one has to be reasonable at it. Round and round. Or just level a job you'd rather not play and prostitute it for plasm farming sessions.

Neither of these are optimal for someone with limited play time. For a player to have a sense of value in a game, especially an MMO, I believe they'd rather not feel as their time is being wasted, especially if it's a limited resource. Additionally, a sense of accomplishment towards an overall goal would be nice instead of a feeling that every job you bring to the table is functionally useless - even with top pre-SoA gear. This I believe is also part of what Randnum, Sarick, RAIST and other have touched upon with their contributions to this thread.

Zagen, I'd like to state here I appreciate your suggestions for alternatives to obtain this new gear and participate in Fracture/Delve. You've given me hope that even a rag-tag group like my shell can eventually Delve it up. I think all of us can agree on one thing, that the SoA content is pretty unbalanced, and noting the post count on this thread, certainly not fun for casuals.

[Sarick]

I love your use of prostitute. The first thing that popped in my head was Prostitutes of Adoulin. Needless to say I know a lot of people in your exact position. My profile used to have several Linkshells listed in it several where very prominent. Now those are gone they vanished soon after the latest expansion. It's become a train wreck. My home nation is empty and Jeuno is nearly dead most outside the bazaar players shops.

The I think the trials need to be extended not only to allow players alternative route but bring. casuals up to speck. Other armors could also be upgraded from other expansions in a casual slow paced way. new trials such as damage taken from enemy attacks, elemental damage taken by party, damage cured by party, damage dealt by party, elemental damage dealt by party, successful evasions by or even time equipped while in combat.

The party part isn't to force grouping but to make teaming up acceptable. When people was doing WS trials it made them NOT team up unless the other player had the exact same WS trial. Bad choice of trial.

Look a this quote below from Alhanelem. He also recently made a topic about PVP older content being abandoned. :cool:


The only thing I've found boring is waiting for the chance to be able to participate in new content. When I actually do get the chance to play it, it's fun. The problem is the content requires such high end sutff that if you didn't get skirmish/wildskeeper stuff when people were still doing it, you're in a bad spot because your only chance to participate is support role jobs e.g. whm sch brd cor.

I posted it in full. This player is always posting. He's enjoying the content in the hardcore way. He also admits the casuals won't have a chance to really enjoy it unless they prostitute another job. Is this all that's left for casuals?

Look at this one.

Seems like they have no clue how to make this work successfully, whoever is in charge of this train wreck did a fine job to ruin my first and very last game makes it easy for me to quit it is not fun nor do they want to hear out players at all .

This game is bleeding real players, unless something is done to diversify the player base play style it's heading for a quick death. Reast said it best.


At present, it is all grossly skewed to benefit the die-hards and to penalize anyone who is not. What is at risk here if they don't take corrective measures soon, is the potential to drive out anyone who is not "1337". At the very least, it risks dissuading a lot of people from participating in a significant enough way to progresss through the new content at a satisfactory enough rate to keep them subscribing. Effectively, locking a lot of people into just doing older content that soon becomes unrelevant enough for them to continue playing the game. It is basically setting things up for more attrition, which is not good for a company that has been bleeding money for the last 3 or 4 years.

Something needs done trials worked in the past they can work now.

[MakkotoParinne]

I feel kind of bad for not posting in my own thread often, but I believe I've already said my piece.

That said, thank you everyone who is keeping the discussion active. :D Based on the likes on the main post, I'd say that a lot of people are in favor of positive changes.

[Zagen]

I didn't specify the 'we', any more than you specified.
Your 'we' isn't defined, I think it's accepted when left undefined it pertains to the circle of people (i.e. friends) that person does stuff with. However I didn't make that assumption I assumed 'we' was 2+ people.

My 'majority' on the other hand when left undefined does have a finite range, more than half but less than the whole make up a majority (i.e. 51%-99%). So I actually did define it, I asked for you to explain how 51% or even 50.01% of the player base didn't want there to be a progression through content.



I think that falls along the lines of poor implementation. It's one of the reasons the game lost it's frill towards new commers and another reason why the game is gasping so hard to maintain it's audience. The developers have forgotten how to recreate content. Instead they've gone for making a bigger weapon for bigger monsters. A loop purely meant to suck in a select group of core fans.

No more diversity because the stepping stone is a leap to end game content. It's much like joining a monopoly game with everyone owning 90% of the board having hotels on everything. Within a few turns the new player joining the game already in progress is bankrupted. New comers, returning players and casuals are a lost stepping stone. Old content isn't relevant, most players only care for #1.

No one wants to stay in a rat race or join one that's this hostile towards them. This is a subscription service they might as well join Free Realms, or DC Universe Online. At least those games have content growth that remain relevant to the overall world not just a single expansion.

Trials are something everyone had access to even casuals up until the point where the weapons needed stones. Up till that point weapon trials only had to kill monsters. They didn't need gil large groups of allies or special setups weird KI collecting task. Most of them could build weapons with little or nothing in a few days or a week. I myself managed to create two wind agility daggers to 99 in <24 hours. (weather was awesome that day!) Even the starter weapon was free. Without content updates they don't even amount towards a decent stepping stone.

You mentioned many other games and you're telling me they don't have content that's out grown? I haven't tried Free Realms but DC Universe I know for certain has zones/gear that become useless once you've leveled to a certain point, i.e. content = stepping stones.

As to the stepping stones being leaps and jumps I disagree, when you take on content in a similar order to how I outlined a few pages back you'll see a more linear progression (except NNI that's just BS luck and gear only reduces the need to bank on said luck).

I completely agree that SE is using an archaic game model but there's a few reasons for that that I can see right off the bat and they all boil down to 2 main reasons:
1) The game is 11 years old.
- Back then Pay to Play was the standard (not that there was much competition), this is an issue as the whole game (including the engine) is built around this system and would require a lot of revamping to make it more up to date with the current trend in the MMO market.

2) The development company doesn't see value in spending resources to revamp their (only?) cash cow.

I think we can agree these are weak reasons if the game was expecting to hit it's 20th anniversary but I don't see that as a goal.

As to RAIST I only caught 2 major points that sort of explain a few things as to where my disconnect is:


predictable schedule

This is the issue, the reason for that is when I had a limited play time I found myself being able to log on at random times in other words having a predictable (day of the week) schedule didn't mean anything to me I couldn't plan accordingly.



The major shift in scaling--or, rather the lack of scaling-- for the players in relation to the new content.
This is something I disagree with, if you're up to date on previous content then taking on SoA content before acquiring SoA gear isn't a problem (I'm not talking having a R/E/M either). I get that the difference from pre-SoA gear and SoA gear is huge but unless you're in SoA high end you don't need SoA gear. Oh and at the moment "SoA high end" is Delve Fracture Bosses.

[Randnum]

You're quite right, Zagen, but I don't think putting the burden of proof on someone else works either. I'm not sure what makes you think that 50% or more of the playerbase did want high gear progression?

Your point to RAIST is also very valid, in that if you are high enough in content, SoA content is probably no problem. The issue is that if you are not, multiple unfavorable things start to happen. Do you also believe that 50% or more of the playerbase are 'up to date on previous content'? Even if we look only at the last Census and make two extrapolations, it can't be so.

1. The number of players with RME weapons across all servers is considerably less than half of the playerbase.
2. It apparently was enough of a problem with elitism to get into groups without one of these weapons, that an overhaul was required.

By this metric, we can jump to two possibly erroneous but very likely conclusions.

1. Damage Dealers without RME, especially without RME at certain levels (90+) are not likely to be up to date on current content.
2. Support Job players (i.e. just 'people with support jobs to play') don't need to be up to date on current content to get SoA gear or even expect to be able to, and furthermore, may be used to this.

So, players who perceive it as 'I'll just go WHM/BRD/COR and support people who have top gear until I get the gear I want', have no reason to bother with older content now. Players who don't perceive it that way but don't have top gear are told to do this. Result, everyone aims for SoA content because either they are used to playing support jobs and advancing through content even when they don't have top gear, or they are DDs with top gear.

Result: Exclusion of DDs without top gear.

[Kincard]

I haven't read much of the thread, but as someone who owns a couple 99 REM weapons and would probably be considered leaning towards a hardcore player, I wouldn't really have any problem with them coming up with ways to update magian weapons. It's kinda silly that a system like that designed to "level up" your weapons was completely abandoned. People talk about magian weapons being updated and delve weapons as if the two are mutually exclusive or something. A variety of weapons to choose from wouldn't really be a bad thing.

[Sarick]

You mentioned many other games and you're telling me they don't have content that's out grown? I haven't tried Free Realms but DC Universe I know for certain has zones/gear that become useless once you've leveled to a certain point, i.e. content = stepping stones.

It's simple they just add more zones with more games quest and things to do. New content didn't need to be better it only needs more things to do. Look at WotG the campaign system was used to build up ranks and unlock new quest not gear.


As to the stepping stones being leaps and jumps I disagree, when you take on content in a similar order to how I outlined a few pages back you'll see a more linear progression (except NNI that's just BS luck and gear only reduces the need to bank on said luck).

I find it a huge leep when most of the casuil players I know barely have abbysea gear +1 sets let alown a single RME. When you look at trials the sword caps out at around 60est I think in attack power. a high end RME weapon especially Empy would cap out at roughly 70ish. The empty would also get the added effect from the weapon skill.

Look at the lowest of the new gear and its almost double the strength of MAXED out trial weapon. When you get into the higher tiers of SoA they're almost triple the damage rating.

If someone told you that a small drink at a convenience store is tiny leap to a to a jumbo you'd smack them upside the head. If you have a Small 8oz, Medium 12oz, Large 16oz and an extra large 32oz gulp sitting on the rack you can see the size differences are experimental. I assume that when you look at the stats between trials and the new gear you don't see the jumps in proportion. You seem to think the maxed out trials are good enough starting gear when they're not. The jump from medium to gulp is double. Consider the capped trials are in between small and medium where the previously capped RMEs barely achieved large.

[Zagen]

You're quite right, Zagen, but I don't think putting the burden of proof on someone else works either. I'm not sure what makes you think that 50% or more of the playerbase did want high gear progression?

Honestly it was rhetorical because the game from day 1 has been that way, and we still pay to play :)


Do you also believe that 50% or more of the playerbase are 'up to date on previous content'?
Honestly I'd dare to say 80% of the player base isn't caught up to content before SoA. That doesn't change my belief about them wanting content stepping stones.


Result: Exclusion of DDs without top gear.
Absolutely no disagreement and I understand I'm in the minority when I believe the shouts should read to the effect of "job/weapon" if not a more detailed response explaining how you're good at X job because of Y. Unfortunately TotM never helped this issue. Hell most people will take an 85 masa over a 99 TP Bonus SAM despite math favoring the TP Bonus SAM in many situations.

The only exception to that is Ochain PLD for fracture farming (so far none of the NMs have required it). This is imo the biggest flaw with Delve, while a Twilight Mail/Helm owner (so opens it to Warrior / Paladin / Dark Knight / Beastmaster / Samurai / Dragoon) can replace the PLD and just keep reraising I still think it's flawed.

If fractures required 3/5 NMs to pop the Boss and you had to trade Beads to pop them that would be awesome, but for now it doesn't work that way.

[Zagen]

I find it a huge leep when most of the casuil players I know barely have abbysea gear +1 sets let alown a single RME. When you look at trials the sword caps out at around 60est I think in attack power. a high end RME weapon especially Empy would cap out at roughly 70ish. The empty would also get the added effect from the weapon skill.

Look at the lowest of the new gear and its almost double the strength of MAXED out trial weapon. When you get into the higher tiers of SoA they're almost triple the damage rating.

If someone told you that a small drink at a convenience store is a medium leap to a to a jumbo isn't a small leap. them. If you have a Small 8oz, Medium 12oz, Large 16oz and an extra large 32oz gulp cups sitting on the rack you can see the size differences. I assume that when you look at the stats between trials and the new gear you don't see the jumps in proportion. The jump from large to gulp is double.

The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

[Sarick]

The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

Oh here we go again.


The only thing I've found boring is waiting for the chance to be able to participate in new content. When I actually do get the chance to play it, it's fun. The problem is the content requires such high end sutff that if you didn't get skirmish/wildskeeper stuff when people were still doing it, you're in a bad spot because your only chance to participate is support role jobs e.g. whm sch brd cor.

This is not casual. Trials are. Again one tunnel visioned path. Everyone be like little sheep and follow that path other content is all but irrelevent and people are Flip'en greedy. They only care for #1 and aren't at all interested in doing old content. Finding players to do this OLD content isn't casual.

RAIST has already explained that casuals are more prone to being left to their own devices IE: trials or soloed content. Most of the older content your talking about to prepare them requires much of the small group shouting etc. trials where meant to grow with the player as with each time the level cap was raised they added new ones to keep them up to date.

I still don't think you get it. Casuals don't want the HARDCORE paths created by the developers they want the slow and steady paths that they can so on their own. The crap you keep trying to foist into casuals is just play hardcore like everyone else. Either you fail to grasp the diversity needs to make a fun game for everyone or the concept people have been trying to explain is so alien that it's impossible for you to interpret.

If a new casual player started today they'd have very very very little chance at being ready for even the lowest tier content. In fact they'd have an extremely hard time coming close to being ready for SoA content. Getting the old content leaves them at a severe disadvantage (barely anyone is doing it! and they don't have the resources to solo it. The minimal setup for older content completion requires a few really well geared players or mid sized groups of poorly geared players to complete them.

You just can't understand the large rift between content steps leaves casuals at a severe disadvantage to people like yourself that have already did them. Trials are a path for casuals not hardcore players. They where made so EVERYONE could develop decent weapons without RMT like activities to buy AH crap.

[Zagen]

Oh here we go again.

What? You're creating situations where that's the answer.

Edit:

I still don't think you get it. Casuals don't want the HARDCORE paths created by the developers they want the slow and steady paths that they can so on their own.

Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

If you want that to happen one of 2 things has to happen:
1) Gear up to relevant levels to take on said content. R/E/M/D isn't required unless talking about the final bosses in fractures (they are just more helpful despite people requiring them).
2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

[Sarick]

Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

Sure why not. RME are in essence higher tier trials for better versions. After people throw a fit the developers finally caved and gave those trials extensions so they would remain relevant to new content growth. The difference between the RME trials and the casual trials where upgrade RME versions where considered decent for the latest content. The maxed out casual trials are below decent (poor, weak) after the expansion was added.

There is also another thing you failed to acknowledge. Players can buy gear that exceeds the strength of RME gear that isn't fully leveled to 99. This invalidates your argument entirely. If a casual player can somehow manage to get a few million gil they can buy equipment well beyond what most of the unfinished RME weapons players had. So your position that it's not fair for players to have equipment designed for the hardcore is irrelevant. The developers already screwed the players with partially complete RME versions. The only difference between hardcore and casuals would be the use of different steps to get the HARDCORE base equipment.

More or less your telling players that might not have a chance to get good enough gear from older content or trials (I explained this) they should purchase gil or quit because they don't deserve anything even decently near that content. So typical. Like I said most players are greedy and care only about #1. You've failed to recognize the rifts left by the new content and don't seem to give a damn about the needs of the casual players.
]
The only reason someone would want to suppress casual trials is to inflate the egos of the hardcore audience. Clearly a few people are all for them getting updated. Just look at the likes on the original post. This says a lot more then the arguments you've been rabidly hitting reload to respond to on your browser. Is it that important for you to deny players with differing play styles a chance to advance in their own way? If that's the case then it comes closer to a moral issue where the elitist are controlling the show. Its no longer design/development issue if that's agenda behind such reasoning.



2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

So the casual user base should just stop everything and wait for the content. In other words "JUST QUIT THE GAME." Wonderful advice for a game company that's already bleeding it's fan base and money. Much like the situation where people who waited for Voidwalker (older content) toned down. Now they'll be lucky to get warps unlocked if they didn't play the content when it FIRST came out.

[Zagen]

More or less your telling players that might not have a chance to get good enough gear from older content or trials (I explained this) they should purchase gil or quit because they don't deserve anything even decently near that content. So typical. Like I said most players are greedy and care only about #1. You've failed to recognize the rifts left by the new content and don't seem to give a damn about the needs of the casual players.
Pot calling the kettle black, genius! Don't get it? You're being greedy by wanting to be able to accomplish the same things someone who puts in more dedication than you are able/willing to do at the exact same time as them.

Again TotM actually caters to the player who can dedicate more time to the game and/or move real life things around to make "predictable" requirements as RAIST put it. In either case you're completely missing the point.

Even if TotM weapons were updated to compete with delve weapons you won't be getting invited if you skipped too many of the older content. Armor is just as important as your weapons...

What Rifts? You mean VW the gear that was made almost completely useless by other events that are easier to do? Oh maybe you mean NNI which there's Salvage 2 very small man friendly and there's Bayld Armor both of which compete with a lot of that gear.


So the casual user base should just stop everything and wait for the content. In other words "JUST QUIT THE GAME." Wonderful advice for a game company that's already bleeding it's fan base and money. Much like the situation where people who waited for Voidwalker (older content) toned down. Now they'll be lucky to get warps unlocked if they didn't play the content when it FIRST came out.
Don't you have a bunch of other content to work on? If you don't then why do you need to wait? You're already geared and capable to take on SoA. In other words you'd fall under having completed #1 and #2 is irrelevant to you.

[BigPapaBlueJay]

ITT: You're hardcore if you have common sense and average or better gear/weapons.

[Osmond]

Umm w/ SoA content, even if u get the older content via weapons/gear there's a high chance u won't get invited still as a casual player. Now that i've seen on my server(Lakshmi), they only accept those who have R/E/M/D weapons and mostly 2-handed. They won't invite a new person if they don't know wth they are doing hence they won't teach them cause they'll think that they know what to do. With a casual player that's frustration waiting to happen if u got a really good friend to let u in. More than likely they will pass the new content and head to the old since there is more things to do or they will quit and find something else that is much easier for them to accomplish.

[darkhorror]

I would love to see more new trials, when TotM were updated every update I really looked forward to what I could do and what I would get from it. Once they stopped, I really didn't play much any more and I eventually quit for quite a while. It was great because you would always have something you could go do while you were waiting for end game type events to happen.

[RAIST]

umm.. think we need to clear a few things up here. I apologize in advance Zagen, not really trying to pick on you or anything, it's just that your posts seem to be so indicative of the mentality we are at odds with on this issue, and it's just easier to focus on your posts simply because they give so much to work with from a debate perspective. Sorry if it seems to ramble a bit...there's just so much messed up in the game right now, and there has been a lot of chatter over it amongst friends, so I have a lot going on in my head when it comes to this issue.

And now, for the great wall of text...probly going to be a lot of editing after I upload this, seeing as my html skills are sorely lacking:


As to RAIST I only caught 2 major points that sort of explain a few things as to where my disconnect is:


Originally Posted by RAIST
predictable schedule
This is the issue, the reason for that is when I had a limited play time I found myself being able to log on at random times in other words having a predictable (day of the week) schedule didn't mean anything to me I couldn't plan accordingly.
Not sure you're fully grasping the concept. It's not just DAYS that are predictable. Weather is predictable too. So, in this case, you may have been shooting yourself in the foot by just focusing on days only. the point is, you can know in advance if your next session will be a good day to try to advance your trial or not, and plan accordingly. For example, I already know, right now, at roughly 6PM Eastern, on May 20, 2013 that I can expect to catch fire weather in Kuzots tomorrow between 4:45PM and 5:43PM. If it were my half day tomorrow (unfortunately, it's next week), I already know that I can plan to catch the weather in that window if I have viable targets in that zone. I also know from past experience that fire weather can pop with some consistency in some years from Nov. 7-16 in game, which falls later that evening, so there is a possibility I may still be able to catch it after diner as well. I can check the weather report before I log on at the website, or with the NPC when I do log in, and head out if it's a good window.

The point is, I can know all of this well enough ahead of time to plan my gaming session according to what I know is going to be available when I expect to be in game (or at least reasonably expect to happen during that time frame), and plan my gaming activities according to whether those opportunities will exist or not. It's not about planning my life around the game, which you seemed to be hinting at in a more recent post.

Again TotM actually caters to the player who can dedicate more time to the game and/or move real life things around to make "predictable" requirements as RAIST put it. In either case you're completely missing the point.
You actually appear to be missing the point. It isn't about moving your life around the game, it's about moving the game activities around to make better use of your in-game time without having to move around your life.



This is something I disagree with, if you're up to date on previous content then taking on SoA content before acquiring SoA gear isn't a problem (I'm not talking having a R/E/M either). I get that the difference from pre-SoA gear and SoA gear is huge but unless you're in SoA high end you don't need SoA gear. Oh and at the moment "SoA high end" is Delve Fracture Bosses.

This and several other posts seem to indicate you have an even bigger disconnect with what the problem is when it comes to the magian paths.


The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

That is the point....the nature of the playerbase is more or less denying them a reasonable expectation of reaching that so called "level of preparedness". By the way, this is not an actual level of preparedness as dictated necessarily by game design, it is a level of preparedness as dictated by the playerbase. It is basically, "if you don't have this and that in your repertoire, you can't attend the event". The problem is, in order to meet the player demanded requirements to be invited, one needs help from players that have already surpassed that level, moved on, and have little to no interest in helping them get up to spec. So...once again, those players are being left to fend for themselves. A lot of those top end gears needed for acceptance is only obtainable by participating in content that requires grouping by design.

Important note there...you can't even obtain some of the base gear that these casuals are expected to obtain without first being in a group to even enter the freaking battlefields just to obtain the base items, much less progrees them towards the finished product so that you can augment them further via Magians. Has that simple point managed to even register on the brain yet? We are talking about players that have virtually been relegated to soloing or possible dual-boxing in order to obtain reasonably powerful gear, and the player base is expecting them to have gear that REQUIRES group play for entry (that virtually no one has an interest in helping them with) to even stand a chance to obtain. whoah.. lost focus there for a bit....



The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

Oh here we go again.
What? You're creating situations where that's the answer.
Umm.. no.. those situations actually DO exist already. We'res just using them to try to make a point.


Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

If you want that to happen one of 2 things has to happen:
1) Gear up to relevant levels to take on said content. R/E/M/D isn't required unless talking about the final bosses in fractures (they are just more helpful despite people requiring them).
2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

Again, you seem to be missing the mark. Guess we're going to have to try to break this down into even more detail to try to make it more clear.

Up until SOA, when newer, harder content was added, SE added new tiers to Magians to help bring everyone up to a newer level of gearing so that they could remain relevant enough to participate in the new content with a reasonable level of success. This maintained the balance of the higher quality player with their top-end gears that would accell at content clears much faster, but still maintained a reasonable enough opportunity for the less fortunate players to get the clears. Granted, some may fall on their face repeatedly until they found a way, but there was a close enough expectation for them to keep trying. For instance, let's examine the NIN katanas.

There was a reasonably attainable weapon that could be completed within just a few weeks by a more dedicated casual player, (perhaps a month or so by the more laid back player) Despite the ease of the DA Katan's upgrade paths, this weapon could actually hold it's own against a level 90 Kannagi in terms of potential DPS. And yes, that was comparing raw numbers for Jin with the DA compared against Hi with the Empy. If you compare Jin with both weapons, the DA yielded potentially more DPS over time. Plug them into one of the Excel spreadsheets and see for yourself--the numbers showed them to be fairly balanced. They would come within 1 DPS of each other under normal, static conditions when all other gearing and such was constant. Yet, they had vastly different paths, requiring vastly differrent levels of dedication.

That Kannaghi required you to progress all the way through the same starter NM's, then a host of other NM's including repeated killings of Briarius, Sobek, and Apademak to make. Not exactly a fun path for the casual player most often left to their own devices. In contrast, that Majimum could be COMPLETELY soloed by a casual player. No day/weather requirements... no screwy mechanincs outside of ToD/Respawn timers for the early NM's, and having to either attend events to farm the end items, or simply purchasing them with currencies earned from playing the game from either NPC's or other player's bazaars (and rather cheaply, I might add once prices settled down). Now, getting past that level 90 Kannagi required a little more chutzpah than the typical casual player may have, and as such appropriately rewards that dedication with about a 7.6% increase in DPS over the level 90---but it was only about a 6.66% increase over a Majimun with Jin (all things being equal).

So, up until SOA, BOTH camps had highly sought after weapons, that were fairly close in expected output. Basically, it kept the bar for gear acquisition well enough in balance with the content that all could contribute reasonably enough to foster inclusion in events, even though the casual player may not have had the best weapon. What we have now is a giant leap to where that bar has been moved. The analgy of the cups put it quite nicely, and fairly accurately (but actually, it was 12-16oz then vs 12-32oz now). What needs to happen is we need a way to basically go from a 12-24 oz for the casual, seeing as the hardcores got to go from 16 to 32 in the span of just one month. Keep in mind, that all these previous advancements to magians from the entry level to the current top were broken out over what... 12 times that time frame? Forget the exact time line, but it was a loooong time frame--and yet, during that whole time, they managed to keep things in check. With what they've been doing in SoA, they have CLEARLY advanced the top tier players, while leaving everyone one else behind. All we're asking for is for them to maintain the balance.

We are simply asking for them to continue what has become the norm for the system since it's addition, especially in light of evidence that it is still not complete and there is clearly a pattern that can be followed to potentially extend the system further to better balance the disparity. As mentioned earlier, it is pretty evident that some of those tiers were unfinished. Go back and look at the two weapons I referenced earlier in the thread.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33586-Trials-of-the-Magians-and-casual-players.?p=434472&viewfull=1#post434472
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120309094633/ffxi/images/4/47/Trial3399.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120103073413/ffxi/images/2/28/Trial3442.jpg

Those stats are clearly not finalized, and every weapon class has multiple examples like this--it isn't just a couple here and there, and not for irrelevant weapons either, I might add. So it would appear that SE intened to add at LEAST one more tier to the system.

My main question, is why the h3ll haven't those tiers been added yet? They could have come out with Wildkeepers--at the very least when Delve was added. What gives?

[Zagen]

More or less this is all in response to RAIST:

Weather has never been 100% that's why I excluded it and only mentioned days as those are 100%. I've actually gone days when reports said X weather would happen with a chance of clear skies and all I got was clear skies.

TotM at least on my server has never been an acceptable alternative to R/E/M when we're talking elitism segregation.

I think you're missing par of my point because when I'm talking about a time issue I'm exclusively talking about the weather paths to be more specific weather paths besides dark and ice. NM path is a bit of a time issue but not as bad because it's rarely camped and even if it is there is 0 reason not to give info on ToD and team up. All other paths are time independent (besides the time wasted doing them).

I don't disagree the TotM weapons looking unfinished (yellow text). There's a catch 22 with that though, I mean if you look at delve and skirmish augments they are both yellow yet that only means they can be changed (not something that TotM can do) which makes even less sense when you try to rationalize text color defining anything.

I have a question that's sort of been running in the back of my head: What's the point of updating TotM if you don't plan to partake in the new SoA content? If you do plan on partaking then what's the problem with moving on past TotM (disregarding DWers)?

Edit: The only argument I can come up with for the second part of my question is that you can't/won't join/lead clear shouts.

[Osmond]

No one has any problem doing the new content, the problem is that who is gonna invite those who doesn't have basically endgame weaponry, a specific job that THEY don't want to play, and the time to do it?

[Zagen]

No one has any problem doing the new content, the problem is that who is gonna invite those who doesn't have basically endgame weaponry, a specific job that THEY don't want to play, and the time to do it?

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

[Osmond]

At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

I thought the whole point in Delve IS to abolish R/E/M/TotM weaponry altogether. To make it sound like not only your current gear is useless in the latest expansion, but to surpass it tenfold. I was wondering wth was SE thinking when I saw it on FFXIAH.com. I said to myself that surely they wouldn't do this, cause it would completely unbalance the game even more.

[Zagen]

I thought the whole point in Delve IS to abolish R/E/M/TotM weaponry altogether. To make it sound like not only your current gear is useless in the latest expansion, but to surpass it tenfold. I was wondering wth was SE thinking when I saw it on FFXIAH.com. I said to myself that surely they wouldn't do this, cause it would completely unbalance the game even more.

Haha maybe it is, at least they're saying they have plans to keep R/E/M from becoming useless. Though Emps lose a lot if coin weapons will allow the WS to be unlocked.

[RAIST]

More or less this is all in response to RAIST:

Weather has never been 100% that's why I excluded it and only mentioned days as those are 100%. I've actually gone days when reports said X weather would happen with a chance of clear skies and all I got was clear skies.

TotM at least on my server has never been an acceptable alternative to R/E/M when we're talking elitism segregation.

I think you're missing par of my point because when I'm talking about a time issue I'm exclusively talking about the weather paths to be more specific weather paths besides dark and ice. NM path is a bit of a time issue but not as bad because it's rarely camped and even if it is there is 0 reason not to give info on ToD and team up. All other paths are time independent (besides the time wasted doing them).

I don't disagree the TotM weapons looking unfinished (yellow text). There's a catch 22 with that though, I mean if you look at delve and skirmish augments they are both yellow yet that only means they can be changed (not something that TotM can do) which makes even less sense when you try to rationalize text color defining anything.

I have a question that's sort of been running in the back of my head: What's the point of updating TotM if you don't plan to partake in the new SoA content? If you do plan on partaking then what's the problem with moving on past TotM (disregarding DWers)?

But, weather IS predictable. The cycle repeats itself 100%, the trick is in understanding the pattern well enough to use it to your advantage. Otherwise, I would not have been able to finish my fire weapons in a span of around 2 weeks while working overtime each week. After my first week in SoA, I got to work on some new staves for my avatars for testing. In 2 1/2 weeks, I made both and ACC and ATT staff for my avatars to their final +2 stage (turned in 15 geodes) for testing in reives. Trust me, you can predict weather enough to use it to your advantage.

As to the point of advancing Magians to higher teirs....it's for the same purpose as I <thought> we've already explained. Groups are not open to including people with the current top level magian gears, simply because they are not deemed worthy. However, if they were to advance them in the same manner as before, keeping them close enough in spec so that they would be accepted into the fold, then they have a chance to obtain the gears while everyone is doing them.

Think this through withy me. What happens if they are excluded well past the point that they can get no help with the content? What if the decide they're going to finally bite the bullet and try to get those base items so they can get in the groups, only to find (again) no one will help them with the content--something that is required in order to obtain RME, mind you. Then how do they obtain better gear if they can't do it thorugh Magians? AH? For what, 6M+ a pop? So, now, they have to either RMT or bust their buts raising gil with all the limited time they have? OK, so they manage to get the gil for the AH gears.... guess what.... everyone is moved on , and they still can't solo the content to get the better gears. Now what? They're stuck until they can gather enough lost souls to muddle through it all.

Keep in mind, while all this is taking place, the world of Vanadiel has continued to move forward at an increasing pace. These players eventually come to the realization that they are just falling further and further behind and they just can't seem to get a leg up.

At what point do they finally just give up and quit? How many complaints from struggling players, or how much loss of revenue from exasperated players that quit does it take for SE to notice there is a problem? What does this say to potential players of SE's next big release if they are willing to just flat out ignore such a large portion of the playerbase? Just how much is REALLY at stake here over this situation, not just the here and now, but for the future as well?

This isn't about just you, me, or 90 other players on the forums that agree/disagree with our posts.

This is about SE's current direction for development...
how it affects their reputation, their revenues...
and ultimately, their future.

[Osmond]

Haha maybe it is, at least they're saying they have plans to keep R/E/M from becoming useless. Though Emps lose a lot if coin weapons will allow the WS to be unlocked.

They have no choice. U can't expect ppl to be happy w/ what they have after doing all this crap just to get it only to be obsolete by weapons that out dmg 3x even w/ TotM to reach 90+. The only thing that R/E/M weapons are good for is the WS imo, but I could be wrong. The other side is that other ppl want the rest of the TotM weapons to have the fair share, but it got thrown under the bus cause in SE's eyes they are irrelevant.

[Randnum]

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

And this is where Zagen's logic beats anything we can say, no sarcasm. The only flaw here is that the stick that dangles the carrot got further away and human nature wasn't taken into account.

Why do casual players want to participate in SoA content? Let's assume radically for a moment that they don't, but not all of them have large friend groups. Let's assume that they used to jump into Voidwatch shouts with the one or two friends they had that were online, and did other stuff during the downtime.

Stick got longer, Voidwatch shouts vanish, and they DID actually finish the 'other stuff' for the most part (assume Magian weapon level 99), now they have nothing to do.

However I'm willing to assume right now that Zagen is more right than that. As long as all early delve content can be beaten by a group of good players with ToTM weapons, then ToTM is no longer needed, it would just be really nice to have, as content to act as that alternative to endgame shout responding.

Note that this may just be bias on my part due to complete lack of interest in SoA. I can see up to a point, but I have to admit that I have nothing more than analysis to go on when it comes to 'what happens to a casual player's playtime'. I hope there's still stuff for them to do that a person with a few friends and only average organizational skill, can still get into, or I believe a lot of people will move on.

And on that note I'll continue to support ToTM expansion even if only because it will prevent those people from feeling excluded and moving on.

[RAIST]

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

Think this post finally shows a big problem with the debate.

This is not something that we "think"...it is not a hypothetical.

This very thing is happening---the players are rejecting Magian equipped players, pure and simple.

Let me repeat that, in case it is still being missed, regardless of how many times it has been pointed out:

people are being rejected because of gear selection.

Why? Because of the stats on the gear. It isn't because of their understanding/mastery of their job or the event---it is purely judgement made against their gear stats.

[Hawklaser]

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

This here is why I support the expansion of TotM weapons, and coupled with how hard it can be to get assistance with some older content. Just consider the level of shouts for Abyssea and Voidwatch related content pre and post Delve release. And while a weapon alone does not make it possible to do content, it is one of the pieces of gear that has a more noticeable impact on performance.

One job that this becomes really noticeable on is PLD, and its not because of their weapon, but their shield. As one pretty much needs to have Ochain or Aegis to be considered for any content deemed challenging. Now consider a newish player that may only like playing PLD, how are they going to get up to speed without massive help or leveling a job they don't like to 99?

Another thing to keep in mind, there are also those that don't want to do some of the new content because they don't want to feel like dead weight because they don't have average gear yet. As who wants to be the DD doing an average of 5dps when every other DD in the group is doing 20+DPS? They might be willing to try it once, but it is noticeable really quickly if one is under performing or not if don't filter out everything but your own actions. A great example of this comes from DD's and needing Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon back in the day as it made such a huge difference in their performance. This also applies to asking for help from a person's linkshell all the time just to get up to speed.

Along with the ways to get bayld either involving dealing with T+ monsters which not every job can do without above average gear, or activities that most would find boring quickly. How many people do you think find HELM activities or running back and forth between two points engaging? Added to this is the fact the item needed to obtain bayld without doing combat of some sort only can store up to a certain point and slowly rebuilds over time. Who wants to have to consistently do nothing but legwork quests and farming to be able to participate in more community active content?

So really there are a lot of things combining here to make this gap problem. From finding the new baseline content boring and uninteresting to not be able to do alternatives due to lack of help. But all in all, it boils down to a rift between well geared players and everyone else, and looking ahead to when Delve is no longer the "End Game" content, as SE did mention there are plans for that to be able to happen, as per this quote.


Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.

Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.

Expanding TotM would fall in that lateral expansion, and depending on how it is done, can get more people involved in the new content. As it is, outside of Delve gear, most of the SoA equipment is barely sidegrades to already existing gear, which might help explain why lots of activity for non-Delve gear dried up shortly after Delve started getting put more on a farm state by those better geared. However when ever there is a vertical increase, older content that other players, especially newer ones, still need becomes mostly abandoned if there is nothing relevant to those going after the top end gear. Just the drop in colonization rates post Delve shows how fast that happens. And the bigger worry they should have then players getting burnt out going full steam ahead is players getting totally left in the dust because support for lower content levels vanishing, which is something expanded TotM would help alleviate.

[Zagen]

Think this post finally shows a big problem with the debate.

This is not something that we "think"...it is not a hypothetical.

This very thing is happening---the players are rejecting Magian equipped players, pure and simple.

Let me repeat that, in case it is still being missed, regardless of how many times it has been pointed out:

people are being rejected because of gear selection.

Why? Because of the stats on the gear. It isn't because of their understanding/mastery of their job or the event---it is purely judgement made against their gear stats.

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

Yeah updating TotM is really going to get you in with the elitist idiot crowd.

I don't know what world you guys all live in where TotM made you valuable but I sure as hell wish it was on my server.

Edit:

Almost forgot about this:

But, weather IS predictable. The cycle repeats itself 100%, the trick is in understanding the pattern well enough to use it to your advantage.

Where are your results showing the pattern so that other players can benefit from this? I ask because I never noticed a pattern and if there is one that's amazing information to have.

Though I'm curious when you talk about the cycle repeating itself are you talking about the seasons which is fairly common knowledge when you begin to research weather effects. However still doesn't make weather happen 100% of the time, or do you mean weather within a cycle will appear 100% of the time at X time (X being defined by the cycle).

[Hawklaser]

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.


This here goes to show why expanding them would be beneficial. As if all your other gear is well put together, it gave you a chance to participate in the more end game like content.

They gave more options for hitting that baseline to be able to participate. The big reason RME holders other gear is not questioned as much, is because most people that have mostly finished RME are assumed to have the other baseline gear for a job simply because of the amount of investment that goes into a RME.

Expanding the magian weapons would not solve the exclusionary attitude the end game crowd has, but it would help in alleviating the growing problem of players getting left behind or stuck. The only real reason this is becoming an issue is because of how big and how fast the increases in top of the line gear came, and the future looks to include more jumps like this. If you don't see this as much of an issue, consider what a brand new player would have to do to get caught up to a point to be able to make decent contributions in the baseline events for the active community on anything but a support job.

Just compare a finished magian weapon to the "intro" Bayld weapons. The magian weapons do not need to keep up with all the current endgame equipment, but they should keep up with future "intro" weapons, especially since we have seen the trend of players to mostly abandon content once there are clear upgrades instead of side grades. If Delve plasm weapons become the new "intro" weapons, would it hurt for magian weapons with their more varied effects to get close to them?

[RAIST]

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

Yeah updating TotM is really going to get you in with the elitist idiot crowd.

I don't know what world you guys all live in where TotM made you valuable but I sure as hell wish it was on my server.

Edit:

Almost forgot about this:


Where are your results showing the pattern so that other players can benefit from this? I ask because I never noticed a pattern and if there is one that's amazing information to have.

Though I'm curious when you talk about the cycle repeating itself are you talking about the seasons which is fairly common knowledge when you begin to research weather effects. However still doesn't make weather happen 100% of the time, or do you mean weather within a cycle will appear 100% of the time at X time (X being defined by the cycle).

You are in a way proving the point. Before, you were able to discuss it and work your way in. Now, they are very adamant about it....have this level of gear, or get out. Some of the shouts will even clearly state delve gear only. There's a thread over at alla addressing some observed impact of how strict these groups are being:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=136887536238736968

As for the weather, the cycle simply repeats itself. I've discussed it in previous threads about how I started jotting down when I saw fire popping when doing trials for myself and friends because it simply felt like it was following a pattern. So, I started tracking it more actively. Whenever I saw dates/zones line up again, I would see it follow the tracked dates/zones exactly 100% again. I only have a few really good years that have a lot of dates listed, so I'm not 100% sure on the actual length for when it repeats, but it is not longer then 12 years. Each time I've used the list to plan dates, I'd pick up new ones I missed the last time and update it periodically. Perhaps I'll eventually be able to see it is a shorter time frame, but I can usually plot a decent course once every two weeks when needed--and it has worked for me without fail for over 2 years now. Some noteworthy game dates to watch for are March 16th and Oct. 20th---a RL week that falls between those dates in game will typically provide your best opportunities to find fire weather.

But, even without such a detailed tracking for a particular element, you can at least track it by season and plan for it to some extent. The bazaar info charts only cover partial sets for one year, but it is enough to give you a general hint of when to look for what elements in each zone it tracked. If you catch a strong week or weekend for your target, make a note of the game dates. In roughly 2 RL weeks, it may very well repeat again (or at least be close to it). The more you do it, the better you get at pinpointing it. The trick is to either use the tools out there to give you a heads-up in advance, or just simply use some common sense sometimes. You have a beach, it's the hottest time of the year....you'd be surprised how many times I've caught fire weather in Terrigan and Mt. Z that wasn't forecast. Not cheezy 5 minute cycles either, but entire afternoons worth (close to 20 minutes--plenty of time to make some progress with EP mobs that die really fast). Same goes for Light. Arouras sort of take their queues from real life also. You may be surprised just how often you may catch what you need if you really put your mind to it.

[Zagen]

You are in a way proving the point. Before, you were able to discuss it and work your way in. Now, they are very adamant about it....have this level of gear, or get out. Some of the shouts will even clearly state delve gear only. There's a thread over at alla addressing some observed impact of how strict these groups are being:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=136887536238736968

I have yet to see anything to that degree well there's 1 group that might do that but the majority of them sound like the OP of the post. I mentioned it earlier but on Bismarck the only stickler has been PLD with Ochain. I've seen a lot of DDs that are magian DDs, they gear swap and pop food so not halfassing it, granted for all I know the leader was told all this much like I did in my VW example.

When I go on COR, SCH, WHM I just send "Job Do you need it?" and well I can count on 1 hand where I got asked follow up questions. Obviously those are jobs people tend to ignore as long as they function but again it goes against the OP you linked. I have sent "PUP Do you need it?" kind of as a joke and the response I got was "sure, if you're boasting PUP you either have some balls or it's fairly pimp" I didn't let them down but I couldn't help but laugh.

Don't get me wrong I get that elitism is a real problem, I'm not trying to belittle it but TotM isn't going to fix that. Changing Delve as well as the way acquiring the required KI to access it as a leader.

I mentioned one of these earlier but a couple ideas, maybe I'll make a post in general to see how many likes that gets.

1) Reverse how NMs and Beads work. Beads pop NMs instead of them being popped.

It's obvious by now or should be to SE most of the time we're just holding the NMs instead of actually killing them. Removing them would remove the requirement of 1-2 Ochain PLD which is a huge bottle neck.

2) Allow players to enter Wildskeeper Rieve without having the KI, they can get drops but no KI reward.

This makes it more like VW and gives players who already have the KI to enter Delve a reason to help people trying to get the KI.

Ideas like this (not saying mine are awesome just examples) are ideas that will allow more players to have access while still keeping the really good stuff fairly exclusive to the people who are "hardcore". More players having access in turn lightens the elitism in groups.

I wouldn't outright be mad if TotM was expanded/updated after all I have the means to power through just about w/e they come up with. However TotM being expanded to the point of competing even with Skirmish weapons reduces the pool of players willing to do Delve.


Weather Research

Damn it's as I feared. Yeah that kind of works in the sense you get an idea of when you can log back in but it isn't a 100% kinda thing :/

[Afania]

As with my other thread concerning Walk of Echoes weapons, I have a few concerns and questions regarding Trials of the Magians and the casual playerbase.

It's all well and good that the super weapons of the expansion have come to fruition, and there are plans to increase R/M/E weapons in damage and practicality. These changes will keep many people happy and have goals to strive for in the new content.

However, there are also many people who do not have R/M/E to start with and instead focus on Trials of the Magians in their spare time. With the implementation of the new weapons that completely and utterly outclass Trials of the Magians, and with R/M/E getting upgraded, what will become of the Trials of the Magians system and weapons?

Surely this system was not implemented to be unused in such a short amount of time. Will all of the gil and time spent here as well be discarded in favor of the Adoulin expansion rewards? I'm curious to see if Trials of the Magians will have new trials added to keep the content relevant as a lower difficulty-lower tier reward option for those who don't have the time or desire to make a R/M/E weapon or try their luck in Delve/Skirmish without one.

Casual players like to set goals, too. I thought that's why TotM was implemented in the first place, so everyone could have something they can grind every day and accomplish over time.

Thank you for reading.

Trial of magian weapons aren't much more friendly to casual players than delve weapons. Trial of magian needs to be done on certain day, and casual players often ended up log on wrong day during their playtime and have a hard time to get it done. You also need AoE burn jobs to kill it efficiently. Certain path needs to camp NM, that's also a pain to casual players. Not to mention 3M+ cost for fire path weapons, which is also a lot for casuals. Overall it's a pain in the ass to make.

Delve weapons you can just buy KI from others or join /shout, and do 5 fracture runs to get it.

[Kimjongil]

I think most MoT weapons are great for macro pieces. I play blue mage often and Sometimes you can macro them in after a weapon skill, for your spell to skill chan. Beyond that, today I saw someone trying to sell a Kclub for 140m. Now the multi hit weapons should be upgraded to 5-8 hits. Lower base dmg. If this was done, it would end high prices on items like Kclub, allow skill ups easy and character customization.

[Osmond]

Delve weapons you can just buy KI from others or join /shout, and do 5 fracture runs to get it.

Im sry, but that excuse is pretty lame. Why not just be honest and tell ppl that u screwed. The chance in the ppl willing to shout for non R/E/M/D ppl to get in for gil is slim right now. They not gonna do it while it's still the main thing going. Once SE release another content like Delve and surpass that then they'll do it, but I doubt it.

[darkhorror]

I really hope they bring back magian trials as it meant that I could always log on and have something I could just go do. I didn't have to wait for a group, if I wanted to log on for an hour I could go and work towards finishing a trial. Or if I was waiting around for an event to start up I could do the same thing.

[Mirage]

You guys are forgetting that not all Magian weapons are weather trials. TPbonus kanto can be completed without having to rely on any dynamically changing situations in the game, except the exact position of mobs as they move around, for example. The OA2 weapons aren't reliant on weather either, but it does require you to do Bastion, which can be a real bitch when alone on certain jobs. It is however frequent, and you get a progress indicator on when they are about to happen.

[Zagen]

Im sry, but that excuse is pretty lame. Why not just be honest and tell ppl that u screwed. The chance in the ppl willing to shout for non R/E/M/D ppl to get in for gil is slim right now. They not gonna do it while it's still the main thing going. Once SE release another content like Delve and surpass that then they'll do it, but I doubt it.
I'm not saying buying a KI is the way to go but you're over estimating the difficulty level on Delve NMs if you think spots for clears aren't already being sold.


You guys are forgetting that not all Magian weapons are weather trials. TPbonus kanto can be completed without having to rely on any dynamically changing situations in the game, except the exact position of mobs as they move around, for example. The OA2 weapons aren't reliant on weather either, but it does require you to do Bastion, which can be a real bitch when alone on certain jobs. It is however frequent, and you get a progress indicator on when they are about to happen.

Actually they were brought up and pointed out that they weren't time dependent. That said with the exception of a few weapons those are weaker than most of the elemental paths.

[Osmond]

I'm not saying buying a KI is the way to go but you're over estimating the difficulty level on Delve NMs if you think spots for clears aren't already being sold.

No I haven't seen it on my server, if I did I wouldn't make the comment. Idk why u think im over estimating when I haven't say such a thing, what im saying if u don't have specific gear or job on earlier posts I made they won't let u in cause they are expecting a WIN not a lost.

[Zagen]

No I haven't seen it on my server, if I did I wouldn't make the comment. Idk why u think im over estimating when I haven't say such a thing, what im saying if u don't have specific gear or job on earlier posts I made they won't let u in cause they are expecting a WIN not a lost.

Right and I'm saying you don't need 18 players with specific gear or jobs to beat any of the outside delve NMs within the 20 minute window. That's why I said you're over estimating their difficulty. To use your server as the example for all servers is flawed.

[Osmond]

Right and I'm saying you don't need 18 players with specific gear or jobs to beat any of the outside delve NMs within the 20 minute window. That's why I said you're over estimating their difficulty. To use your server as the example for all servers is flawed.

Ok, please show me the proof that random ppl w/o the latest gear can win against Delve NMs outside the fracture within 20min w/o the main requested jobs.

[Zagen]

Ok, please show me the proof that random ppl w/o the latest gear can win against Delve NMs outside the fracture within 20min w/o the main requested jobs.
What constitutes "main requested jobs" to me that includes a healer thus making your request impossible.

Edit: Assuming you aren't meaning something crazy like that.

Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper DDs + Healers
Gnat DDs + Enfeebler + Healers

Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata DDs + Nukers + Healers
Pieste DDs + Enfeeblers + Healers

Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw DDs + Healers
Orobon DDs + Stunners + Healers

[Osmond]

What constitutes "main requested jobs" to me that includes a healer thus making your request impossible.

Then why say something that u can't prove on. If I said that a group that none have the requested items the majority wanted I would've have proof right there. Im not gonna say something w/ nothing to back up.

[Zagen]

Then why say something that u can't prove on. If I said that a group that none have the requested items the majority wanted I would've have proof right there. Im not gonna say something w/ nothing to back up.

From my edit:

Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper DDs + Healers
Gnat DDs + Enfeebler + Healers

Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata DDs + Nukers + Healers
Pieste DDs + Enfeeblers + Healers

Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw DDs + Healers
Orobon DDs + Stunners + Healers

That's all KIs from outside.

Sorry it wasn't that I couldn't provide the NMs it's that I wasn't sure you were being obtuse with what you defined as "main requested jobs".

Edit: Strats just in case you need that too: (info from BG)

Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper - Smash away don't do WS
Gnat - Keep it enfeebled to prevent it's -DT from going up.

Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata - Deal physical or magical damage for 7 TP moves then use the opposite.
Pieste - Keep it blinded and it's evasion will be reduced and prevent usage of Grim Glower and Oppressive Glare.

Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw - DDs move around to find the side that it will take damage from
Orobon - DDs (ideally crit heavy DDs) keep attacking it's face until it takes enough critical damage to destroy the lamps, this reveals HP and stops Mayhem Lantern. Stunners are helpful for reducing overall damage taken from AoE moves and stopping Mayhem Lantern prior to lamps being destroyed.

[Osmond]

From my edit:

Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper DDs + Healers
Gnat DDs + Enfeebler + Healers

Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata DDs + Nukers + Healers
Pieste DDs + Enfeeblers + Healers

Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw DDs + Healers
Orobon DDs + Stunners + Healers

That's all KIs from outside.

Sorry it wasn't that I couldn't provide the NMs it's that I wasn't sure you were being obtuse with what you defined as "main requested jobs".

Sry about that. I should've explained it in detail.

[Zagen]

Sry about that. I should've explained it in detail.

NP I try not to assume, I edited to add strategies that work on each of those NMs. Obviously or should be anyway the better geared the players the fewer are needed but yeah outside of a few types there isn't any one required job, as long as you can land enfeebles you're an enfeebler, as long as you can land stun you're a stunner, etc.

[Afania]

Im sry, but that excuse is pretty lame. Why not just be honest and tell ppl that u screwed. The chance in the ppl willing to shout for non R/E/M/D ppl to get in for gil is slim right now. They not gonna do it while it's still the main thing going. Once SE release another content like Delve and surpass that then they'll do it, but I doubt it.


Ummm, if you're paying for a spot to get KI then they won't ask your gear. You're just there to leech, and you're the customer that's paying, so why's gear a requirement?

If you're joining a /shout pt and you can't get in because you have no R/E/M/D....come on, ppl need to stop pretending this game only has DD jobs and not be able to get in without a R/E/M/D DD is the end of the world. Go play SCH WHM COR GEO etc.

[Osmond]

Ummm, if you're paying for a spot to get KI then they won't ask your gear. You're just there to leech, and you're the customer that's paying, so why's gear a requirement?

If you're joining a /shout pt and you can't get in because you have no R/E/M/D....come on, ppl need to stop pretending this game only has DD jobs and not be able to get in without a R/E/M/D DD is the end of the world. Go play SCH WHM COR GEO etc.

If they aren't worrying about what gear u have then that person must be paying a hefty amount of gil to make that happen. Again it's slim and they not gonna take that chance especially if they want to kill this NM in less than 20min or get over 5k plasm.

Again, they want quick kills, they don't want ppl who drags on. They are there to FARM. So u either have R/E/M/D or u don't get in. This is what the community wants right now. If that was the case there will be no complaints in this forum after the post update.

[Xtrasweettea]

If you're joining a /shout pt and you can't get in because you have no R/E/M/D....come on, ppl need to stop pretending this game only has DD jobs and not be able to get in without a R/E/M/D DD is the end of the world. Go play SCH WHM COR GEO etc.

But, but, but, it's my $14.95 and I should be able to go as I my DRG. I don't want to level up BRD to get gear for my DRG! That's wrong. No one else does it! I demand everyone else to change their jobs!

Also, no, I won't level BRD or WHM. Those jobs are below me and I can't see myself, a golden DD, touching those second class citizen jobs!

I agree with you, Afania.

I have a relic and an empy. I don't sit and pout when I can't go DRK or PUP to delve. I go as BRD instead. I rather use BRD to get gear for BRD (and really RDM, but it is becoming unused again) and then to gear DRK and PUP. Of course, I've been "whoring" myself on BRD since the end of my days in old school Dyna. I can't blame anyone but myself for wanting to push forward in progression.

I also find it funny that people are detested by the idea of not moving from their DD perch and touch mage jobs. I'm guessing they view the jobs as being "under" them or that they don't like the idea of playing a job that actually has some responsibility other than reducing an enemy's health to 0.

[Osmond]

I also find it funny that people are detested by the idea of not moving from their DD perch and touch mage jobs. I'm guessing they view the jobs as being "under" them or that they don't like the idea of playing a job that actually has some responsibility other than reducing an enemy's health to 0.

No one doesn't have a problem playing mage jobs, they just have a problem w/ those who doesn't have R/E/M/D to get into invites for Delve. There might be those who doesn't want to take the easy way out and play a mage job to get what they want.

[detlef]

No one doesn't have a problem playing mage jobs, they just have a problem w/ those who doesn't have R/E/M/D to get into invites for Delve. There might be those who doesn't want to take the easy way out and play a mage job to get what they want.If the shouter has no issues filling his alliance with Delve DDs, then he clearly in the position to be picky about who he invites. What do you have to offer that can't be done better by dozens of other players?

[Demon6324236]

No one doesn't have a problem playing mage jobs, they just have a problem w/ those who doesn't have R/E/M/D to get into invites for Delve. There might be those who doesn't want to take the easy way out and play a mage job to get what they want.I go as WAR with a FUkon(Fake Ukon) not a RMED, also I have seen people go on jobs like DRK and SAM without RMECDs because the WSs they use are merited and another weapon can still do great damage, if you are on a job like WAR or MNK where your WS is not as strong without a high powered weapon, like Upheaval and SSpiral without a Relic/Mythic then yes, you are excluded because you lack a basic WS everyone on those jobs should get. If you are unable to join on WAR or MNK because you have no RMECD then its because the job just is not strong without one of those in most cases, and as such you are suffering from the flaws of your job choice and its weapon choice.

[Xtrasweettea]

No one doesn't have a problem playing mage jobs, they just have a problem w/ those who doesn't have R/E/M/D to get into invites for Delve. There might be those who doesn't want to take the easy way out and play a mage job to get what they want.

There seems to be a problem of people wanting to play mage jobs. I see it daily when there are several groups shouting for BRDs as one of their only open spots left open. I've seen it back in the days of merit parties where you would have several groups of 4DDs shouting for a RDM and BRD. All of these DDs and not one of them wants to jump to a mage job. So you are telling me that they have no problem going as mage? The shouts I've seen are contrary to what you state.

You are correct, there are those who don't want to take the "easy way out" and play a mage job to get what they want. They are also the ones on here who have been complaining about not being able to participate in events STARTED by other people. The ones who want to participate and don't have a REMD could always START their own shout. The ones complaining have nothing to blame but themselves for not starting their own group or changing to a job that is in demand.

[Landsoul]

You can't really expect having a level 85 or 90 empyrean weapon and it's still relevant. I know casual players have alot less time compared to someone that plays more often and that can complete it within 4 to 5 days. But this is exactly why you move onto Delve weapons for purchase. It seems illogical that a level 85 or 90 weapon is still good while all the gear in SoA is for level 99. Delve weapons are great right now and not very hard to obtain for casual players. If you want your weapon to stay relvevant, because you spent 1-3 months building your weapon, you want other gear to stay relevant too you spent so much time obtaining such as NNI, Salvagev2 or r/e gear like Armada Hauberk or Valkyrie's Breastplate?

SE decided to buff R/E/M 99, because taking these weapons to 99 takes a fair amount of time / dedication and gil. Harsh as it may sound getting a Empyrean to 85 or 90 does not take much dedication or enough effort for them to stay relevant. Want the best or second best weapon? Take a R/E/M to 99. If not stick to Delve weapons. That's the basic concept from Square-Enix. Why should Empyrean 85/90 be better than Delve weapons or craftable weapons? They should not.
I have only one relic at 99 myself, but I can understand it's time to move onto new weapons and gear for weapons that aren't 99. I have like 5 empyreans and am a little frowned that they won't serve a purpose really, but don't plan on upgrading any of them and feel it's time to move on. So they'll become irrevant and I think that's fine. I may upgrade another relic to 99 in the future.

If anything as conselation they should make Empyrean 85/90 give you the WS instead of having to go out your way and building another trial so you can take the WoE version to 99. I think it's rather silly having to do a trial all over again for the WS, but oh well it doesn't take too long to build a WoE weapon to 99, but it would be nice if Empyrean 85 / 90 would give you the WS instead.

[Osmond]

I have only one relic at 99 myself, but I can understand it's time to move onto new weapons and gear for weapons that aren't 99. I have like 5 empyreans and am a little frowned that they won't serve a purpose really, but don't plan on upgrading any of them and feel it's time to move on. So they'll become irrevant and I think that's fine. I may upgrade another relic to 99 in the future.

Wait, u said that u won't upgrade a relic cause they are irrelevant due to the new content, but now u saying that u gonna upgrade them in the future. im a lil confused and saw a contradiction to that comment.

[Landsoul]

Wait, u said that u won't upgrade a relic cause they are irrelevant due to the new content, but now u saying that u gonna upgrade them in the future. im a lil confused.

Seems you haven't been following the latest news, but relics at level 99 are getting buffed meaning they'll be relevant in the future. I was refering that I won't be upgrading any of my 5 empyreans.

[Osmond]

If anything as conselation they should make Empyrean 85/90 give you the WS instead of having to go out your way and building another trial so you can take the WoE version to 99. I think it's rather silly having to do a trial all over again for the WS, but oh well it doesn't take too long to build a WoE weapon to 99, but it would be nice if Empyrean 85 / 90 would give you the WS instead.

I guess it is, but they wanted to try and get ppl back to WoE, to help the casual player/s. If they can't get R/E/M/D they can as least get WoE w/ that WS to stand out....kinda? I just don't know if it'll help.

[Hawklaser]

There seems to be a problem of people wanting to play mage jobs. I see it daily when there are several groups shouting for BRDs as one of their only open spots left open. I've seen it back in the days of merit parties where you would have several groups of 4DDs shouting for a RDM and BRD. All of these DDs and not one of them wants to jump to a mage job. So you are telling me that they have no problem going as mage? The shouts I've seen are contrary to what you state.

You are correct, there are those who don't want to take the "easy way out" and play a mage job to get what they want. They are also the ones on here who have been complaining about not being able to participate in events STARTED by other people. The ones who want to participate and don't have a REMD could always START their own shout. The ones complaining have nothing to blame but themselves for not starting their own group or changing to a job that is in demand.

Now I don't have a problem playing a mage job, since I do have SCH at 99, but I don't like playing SCH in events where end up having to play it as a gimped WHM. There is a matter of enjoyment involved, as there are some jobs players will derive absolutely no enjoyment, and for me one job I can not stand to play is BLM. Also BRD's gameplay does not lend itself to being enjoyed by a lot of people.

Something else to consider is how player reputation works, as back in the past if you got known as a good RDM or BRD it became very hard to do events on other jobs, because you were always wanted on that job. At one point I stopped leveling RDM because I did not want to end up only being able to play harder content as a RDM. And from what I have heard, BRD is still one of those jobs if you get known as good on its hard to do events as other jobs.

So it may not be avoiding the easy way, and it may not be because they don't want to play the support jobs. They may not enjoy those jobs or they don't want to get stuck playing only those jobs for events.

[Xtrasweettea]

Now I don't have a problem playing a mage job, since I do have SCH at 99, but I don't like playing SCH in events where end up having to play it as a gimped WHM. There is a matter of enjoyment involved, as there are some jobs players will derive absolutely no enjoyment, and for me one job I can not stand to play is BLM. Also BRD's gameplay does not lend itself to being enjoyed by a lot of people.

Something else to consider is how player reputation works, as back in the past if you got known as a good RDM or BRD it became very hard to do events on other jobs, because you were always wanted on that job. At one point I stopped leveling RDM because I did not want to end up only being able to play harder content as a RDM. And from what I have heard, BRD is still one of those jobs if you get known as good on its hard to do events as other jobs.

So it may not be avoiding the easy way, and it may not be because they don't want to play the support jobs. They may not enjoy those jobs or they don't want to get stuck playing only those jobs for events.
I agree with what you say. I used to be noted for having a great RDM for almost every group event and merit party. I ended up getting so burnt on RDM, I leveled PUP to relax (mostly solo). Though, unfortunately, no one wanted PUP (let alone another DD). So I leveled BRD up.

I understand BRD isn't entertaining and that playing a mage job a different way isn't usually fun (like making RDM into a PNK) for most people. I've lived it. Though I blame no one else except myself for playing those jobs.

I understand your point of view. Though, I would rather be noted for being a good mage and progressing rather than fearing never being able to play my DD in PUGs.

[Hawklaser]

Though, I would rather be noted for being a good mage and progressing rather than fearing never being able to play my DD in PUGs.

Not really fearing being able to play my DD job in end game events currently, but its more looking down the road as content levels go up and older content gets abandoned, and for new players and future returning players.

As if the only way for someone newish be able to really participate in the current community baseline endgame events is to level WHM, SCH, COR, BRD or GEO, there is a big problem. As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times. Now if there were AH variants for each weapon type, might not be as bad when content levels go up, but that currently is not the case.

[RAIST]

There is also the issues with gearing a mage job if you go the route of leveling a mage job just to get in there. What if they don't have the job(s) leveled becuase they were never interested in playing them, and as such don't have any relevant gear for it? Mine aren't even up to snuff really, and just 3 mages consume an entire container for their gears (and this is not including some universal pieces that are kept elsewhere, that's just job/class specific only pieces). And no, I don't use the porters for them because I frequently hop on/off of them.

The point is, it's not always just a matter of switching to a mage class. Nor the process of book/abyssea burning them to 99. Sure...might seem easy enough when you say it...but you also have to consider that they may be very gimped, and some people may just not want to arse with everything else needed to make the job worth a flip.

[Alistaire]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

Wait a sec, you're saying it's bad to suggest you do something more for other people than yourself...to do something that's more work than fun, in order to get something fun, and you're saying *other* people are selfish?

Just want to be sure that's what you're saying. There might be a hint of irony in it if you are though.

[Hawklaser]

Wait a sec, you're saying it's bad to suggest you do something more for other people than yourself...to do something that's more work than fun, in order to get something fun, and you're saying *other* people are selfish?

Just want to be sure that's what you're saying. There might be a hint of irony in it if you are though.

This highlights something I just said.



As if the only way for someone newish be able to really participate in the current community baseline endgame events is to level WHM, SCH, COR, BRD or GEO, there is a big problem.

While most of us likely don't have a problem leveling different jobs to be more versatile, the problem comes from when only support jobs are viable to participate in the current baseline endgame content without already being geared to the teeth. Now when you consider what all is needed for the rest of the jobs to even get a chance to participate, the deck is stacked against anyone behind the gear curve, which leads to a lot of new players quitting because they may not have fun on those support jobs.

Or another way of putting this is the future of the game is becoming the game doesn't start until after you have gotten all your gear by playing a support. That is a future that will kill the game if it becomes the norm, as it makes it much less likely people who try the game will stick around.

[Xtrasweettea]

There is also the issues with gearing a mage job if you go the route of leveling a mage job just to get in there. What if they don't have the job(s) leveled becuase they were never interested in playing them, and as such don't have any relevant gear for it? Mine aren't even up to snuff really, and just 3 mages consume an entire container for their gears (and this is not including some universal pieces that are kept elsewhere, that's just job/class specific only pieces). And no, I don't use the porters for them because I frequently hop on/off of them.

The point is, it's not always just a matter of switching to a mage class. Nor the process of book/abyssea burning them to 99. Sure...might seem easy enough when you say it...but you also have to consider that they may be very gimped, and some people may just not want to arse with everything else needed to make the job worth a flip.

Understandable, and I see your point of view. Though if the person doesn't wish to take the mage route, then the person needs to bite the bullet and start their own shouts or join a LS that doesn't require RMED for "entry level" SoA content. If you are wondering if those shells really exist, yes they do. I am in a shell that does not require RMED for "entry level" SoA content. This past Tuesday we had pick-up members who didn't have RMED, but had ToM GKTs and one WAR has a 90 Coin GAX. The group went 1/1 on the three NMs we decided to take on (Supernal Chapuli, Tax'et, and Divagating Jagil).

[Xtrasweettea]

The DD situation is "bad" now because shouters want to be able to get the most Plasm per trip as possible. It is no different than trying to get the most kills per set of playtime for Voidwatch or the most EXP per hour when Meriting on Colbri.

This isn't selfishness, it's business. The shouter knows that he or she isn't trying to get the most EXP/Plasm/Kill/Gil per hour for his or her own selfish needs (not always), he/she is trying to get the most for the hardest to fill jobs: support (and now PLDs). Support and mage jobs are not always the most entertaining jobs, they require the most attention to play, and require higher than average reaction to play. DDs do not necessarily require such high requirements: they don't need to look at other player's health bars, they don't need pay attention to TP moves that give status affects to other players, and they don't need to keep the group buffed almost 100% of the time. Most of the DD's job duty is on auto-attack. The differences alone make the DD jobs more appealing and mage jobs unappealing to most players. It's obvious when we see the large number of DDs compared to the number of support.

We have an oversupply of DD and an under-supply of support. So, in order for the shouter to get best support he or she can, he or she is going to need to appeal to them. Since there is no way to measure the skill of a player without knowing the player themselves, the easiest way to measure "skill" will be requiring the DDs to have RMED. This restricts the number of DDs, but potentially increases the number of currency/exp/kills per trip/pop/run. This appeals to the under-supplied support jobs.

This is called "supply-side economics". It is working here.

Now to stop the issue that is Hawklaser brought up about progressive credentialism (Quote: "As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times.") that is created because of supply-side economics of our job economy, players will need to do five things:
1. Play a support job
2. Start their own shout group and they can set their own criteria
3. Join a LS that doesn't require RMED for events.
4. Try to convince the support job players to reduce their currency/exp/kill per hour for the same amount of work as he or she would be doing if he or she is being "paid" more per trip/pop/run.
5. Ask SE to make AH equivalents (as Hawklaser had suggested)

#1 and #2 are doable. #3 might me harder. Good luck with #4. #5 could happen.

[Mirage]

I play support and I don't really care if all delve participants are RMED holders, especially considering the "E" there is a really really broad term. A lv85 empy is in no way a seal of quality, but still meets the "criteria",and people will look less down at that person than at someone with a weapon that is better than that empy, but still not a "RMED". I'd take a 99 TP bonus SAM, or a 99 OA2 DRK if they asked me to join sooner than some lv85/90 caladbolg or masamune wielder asked me.

But maybe I'm just insane (or a reasonable person, in FFXI, those are basically the same).

[Zumi]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

FFXI has always been like that. Handful of jobs being useful everything else sort of sucking. Want to get stuff done level jobs you don't like.

[Hawklaser]

FFXI has always been like that. Handful of jobs being useful everything else sort of sucking. Want to get stuff done level jobs you don't like.

The problem is it is getting worse. Everyone understands not every job is going to be great at every event, but when it gets to the point of being only way to gear any other job to participate is gear a support first, there is a very big problem. For me, this problem getting worse is a good indicator that the game will start dying off soon.

[Demon6324236]

The problem is it is getting worse.It is? I have more often now than in the last 3 years been asked to bring my RDM to events, not me asking to come RDM, me being asked to! I have seen more PUPs running around, thanks to the Alternator that job has a pet worth putting on a DD setup now, meaning it is not just a MNK who can solo, but rather its a job with its own unique ability to DD. DRGs have been getting more attention because they have such high Accuracy Bonus traits they can keep up Accuracy on the new mobs without as much effort while also providing a potent Defense Down effect and some self healing as well as giving the party a higher Crit Rate, boosting damage further.

I think the problem is fading, I am seeing more jobs come back into use every day, and in this next update which is meant to change how our nuking works, well, we may start seeing BLM come back into the picture if things go well.

[Hawklaser]

As was referring to the having to level jobs you don't like getting worse, as the aspect of general acceptance of a well geared job is getting better, but the issue is getting shifted to actually getting the jobs geared. Though with most games with constant balancing, the flavor of the month jobs will always be shifting.

There really are a lot of factors at work here, and whats amplifying the whole thing is how much content Delve has caused to become mostly abandoned. And there really does need to be a few more alternatives to being able to get to a point to participate in the more active content than level X job so can gear the rest first.

[Xtrasweettea]

The problem is it is getting worse. Everyone understands not every job is going to be great at every event, but when it gets to the point of being only way to gear any other job to participate is gear a support first, there is a very big problem. For me, this problem getting worse is a good indicator that the game will start dying off soon.

Again, the people who are creating shouts must appeal not only to the best DD, but to the rarer support jobs. They have the right to limit who can join who can't based on whatever they want. If you don't want to level a support job to get gear:
START your own shout and you can then invite whoever you want
WAIT for a shout that doesn't care about RMED*
JOIN a static or LS that doesn't care about RMED *
or you can:
CONVINCE support players to get "paid" less per run for the same amount of work as before
CONVINCE 1/2 of player base to play support jobs or PLDs in order to equal out the amount of support to DD ratio

It will only get worse for those who just WAIT. Progressive credentalism is going to happen as they release "higher level" content. Unfortunately, the progressive credentialism is going to mainly target DDs because their is a MUCH larger amount of DD players than support players. If it was the other way around you would see shouts for "Daurdabla BRDs only", "Yagrush WHMs only", etc.

*Example: our shell did two Morimar Basalt Fields Delve runs last night. We didn't require RMED. Instead we were able to filter people on their play skill based on our past experience with them and their attitude upon joining. Out of the three shouts that were going on at the same time, ours filled the fastest. It was appealing to DDs, definitely. It was also appealing to the support jobs, since we were providing 2x BRDs, 2x WHMs, 2x PLDs, and 1x COR from the start. We still had to shout to fill the rest of the support, but they filled out pretty fast. So, these shouts do exist, but we still had to provide the majority of the support in order to make it happen.

[Deifact]

SE seem to add additional content that almost obliterates any need to do any alternative content ever. This happened with Abyssea which pretty much negated leveling content from 30-75.

Seens to be happening again with Delve.

[Hawklaser]

Again, the people who are creating shouts must appeal not only to the best DD, but to the rarer support jobs. They have the right to limit who can join who can't based on whatever they want. If you don't want to level a support job to get gear:
START your own shout and you can then invite whoever you want
WAIT for a shout that doesn't care about RMED*
JOIN a static or LS that doesn't care about RMED *
or you can:
CONVINCE support players to get "paid" less per run for the same amount of work as before
CONVINCE 1/2 of player base to play support jobs or PLDs in order to equal out the amount of support to DD ratio

It will only get worse for those who just WAIT. Progressive credentalism is going to happen as they release "higher level" content. Unfortunately, the progressive credentialism is going to mainly target DDs because their is a MUCH larger amount of DD players than support players. If it was the other way around you would see shouts for "Daurdabla BRDs only", "Yagrush WHMs only", etc.


I fully understand that there is a difference in demand for support jobs compared to DD jobs. And its not so much that its going to get worse for those who wait, but more of how are you going to keep new players engaged enough they stick around?

[Zagen]

I fully understand that there is a difference in demand for support jobs compared to DD jobs. And its not so much that its going to get worse for those who wait, but more of how are you going to keep new players engaged enough they stick around?
There was always a higher demand for support jobs since day 1. Until there is a way to replace the need for a support job this will always be a problem.

Edit: A topic suggesting to fix potions (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34013-Make-Concoction-useful-again), now this actually goes toward addressing the shortage of healers which can help those newer DD who refuse to upgrade their gear through SE's implied progression, refuse to lead, and refuse to level a support job.

[Xtrasweettea]

I fully understand that there is a difference in demand for support jobs compared to DD jobs. And its not so much that its going to get worse for those who wait, but more of how are you going to keep new players engaged enough they stick around?
I do not have an answer for that. The only way I can think for a new player to stick around is to have the new player know somebody who has friends and that person and his/her friends are willing to help the new player catch up to where they are at in their progression. Other than that, I have no answer. This is a player-base problem and has been since day one (as Zagen stated).

[Hawklaser]

There was always a higher demand for support jobs since day 1. Until there is a way to replace the need for a support job this will always be a problem.

Yeah it has been, and usually is in any MMO. And its not just Support, its also often Tanks too.

Whats making this universal problem more pronounced is the shift the game has gone through. Pre-Abyssea, while the leveling rate for some jobs was slower than molasses, your average player was more included as a lot more partying happened and while there was a rift between Dynamis shell players and everyone else, it was possible for a more average player to make the leap into participating in that content if they wanted to. Even up to SoA's Skirmish there was usually something anyone could participate in if they wanted, however soon as Delve was released vast majority of non-Delve group activities dried up for the time being, and not everyone can easily participate. And Delve is not even planned as the very top of endgame content either it seems.

[Zagen]

Yeah it has been, and usually is in any MMO. And its not just Support, its also often Tanks too.

Whats making this universal problem more pronounced is the shift the game has gone through. Pre-Abyssea, while the leveling rate for some jobs was slower than molasses, your average player was more included as a lot more partying happened and while there was a rift between Dynamis shell players and everyone else, it was possible for a more average player to make the leap into participating in that content if they wanted to. Even up to SoA's Skirmish there was usually something anyone could participate in if they wanted, however soon as Delve was released vast majority of non-Delve group activities dried up for the time being, and not everyone can easily participate. And Delve is not even planned as the very top of endgame content either it seems.

You must have forgotten about the days of "Sorry guys I can't find a healer in our level range" or "Sorry guys I can't find a healer willing to level sync". Oh how about the "Sorry guys the BRD or COR doesn't want to join because of XYZ reason".

Tanking while slightly an issue once people realized T-VT exp was much better than IT++ fighting that role became replaced by a DD.

[Sarick]

The great divide between players is just bad business. I guess this is also true when the game dies because of bad business choices. We can blame the developers for creating situations where $14.95 is a glorified chat program not a game for all types of players. I bet the people who have great gear spend a lot of time online. They a unqualified to understand or speak for this audience. This divides the player base if only there is only a hardcore or casual path for character development.

I think people who don't want trial weapons updated lack the foresight to think ahead more then 2 moves in a game of chess. There is only one thing that happens if people feel left out or the game becomes to much of a chore to play. They quit. This isn't a rant it's a truth. I've had many friends and family tell me they're quitting because in the direction the game is headed it isn't worth them keeping their subscriptions. They log on all their friends have quit or moved on and there is nothing casual left to do except craft or fish. (sigh)

The players who are fanatics about building paths don't feel alienated like the causal players because they have the resources and a lot of time to commit into their characters development. Unfortunately, these same players and the game developers fail to recognize a few things. If the casual players who can't participate or have nothing comparable to work with such as trials they'll be lost as subscribers making things worse for everyone.

Basically, to everyone who supports the status quo bias that also think casual players don't deserve content. You need a reality check. Games are supposed to be fun and entertaining for everyone who play. If those factors don't exist because the developers choose to ignore an audience then eventually most players will STOP paying subscriptions. What will be left is servers full of one play style without the ability to attract another.

Trials may not be the best gear but at least if they're upgraded it'll allow casuals something lesser to work with. It'll create diversity in play styles and welcome players who have a lot of time or resources. Like it or not developers and fanatics are pushing away the casuals without foresight. If they don't fix trials or create multiple advancement paths catered to BOTH audiences they'll lose these subscribers.

It's simple really, If casual players can't keep up with the demanding paths setup by the short sided developers then they'll look for other more plausible ways to spend that 14.95. After all It's only good business if it's making a profit and the severs are worth keeping up. Likewise that $14.95 has to be worth something.

[Hawklaser]

You must have forgotten about the days of "Sorry guys I can't find a healer in our level range" or "Sorry guys I can't find a healer willing to level sync". Tanking while slightly an issue once people realized T-VT exp was much better than IT++ fighting that role became replaced by a DD.

No I haven't forgotten that, or party disbanding within minutes after getting to the camp, 4 hour + waits without an invite, not being able to find right jobs to even start a party on my own and many other myriad things that thwarted group activities in the past. But the key was the community involvement outside of the end game events.

[Zagen]

But the key was the community involvement outside of the end game events.

You mean like BCNMs? Yeah those were great they didn't require certain jobs to be able to do them, I sure hope you had BLM or RNG leveled for Worm's Turn, NIN or RDM for Under Observation, SMN for Shooting Fish the list goes on.

Outside of soloing nothing in game ever functioned without some form of role/job requirement so I don't get how now is different from then besides we have more players at level cap.

[Hawklaser]

You mean like BCNMs? Yeah those were great they didn't require certain jobs to be able to do them, I sure hope you had BLM or RNG leveled for Worm's Turn, NIN or RDM for Under Observation, SMN for Shooting Fish the list goes on.

Outside of soloing nothing in game ever functioned without some form of role/job requirement so I don't get how now is different from then besides we have more players at level cap.

If I was doing BCNM's I tended to do Royal Jelly. Plus BCNM's were a lot more optional for progress, most used them, and likely still do, for making gil. Though I did level Nin and War for CoP stuff,and had all but a few jobs leveled to at least 37 back then just for subjob use as needed.

The difference is the amount of community involvement. Just consider the amount of time that was spent in working XP parties from 10-75 compared to the amount of time it takes to go from 1-99 now. Granted it is nice being able to level a job to cap in a weekend or two now, but is a tiny fraction of the time that was spent playing with other players. Not saying need to return to the long XP grind either, just using it to show how community involvement was a lot more widespread because of it compared to now outside of the active end game events like Delve.

[Demon6324236]

Yeah it has been, and usually is in any MMO. And its not just Support, its also often Tanks too.

Whats making this universal problem more pronounced is the shift the game has gone through. Pre-AbysseaJust saying this real quick, Abyssea itself helped this problem a bit because everyone had easier access to great gear for the job and could level up any job in a matter of days rather than months. I admit reading your post I am not sure what you are saying the exact thing is that is making this worse as I have seen no direct change other than people still preferring to mindlessly bash things in the face rather than support those doing it. But if you were saying that post-Abyssea it was worse I would have to disagree since it let more people have access to support jobs even if normally they would have never thought about doing it because of the months it would take.

[Boomslang]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

Matsui has said on several occasions that they will not design content that can be completed with every job. He has basically said: 'Go level another job if you want to gear the job you want to play' on several occasions. He says it's due to the job change system. Suck it up, level whm.

[Hawklaser]

Just saying this real quick, Abyssea itself helped this problem a bit because everyone had easier access to great gear for the job and could level up any job in a matter of days rather than months. I admit reading your post I am not sure what you are saying the exact thing is that is making this worse as I have seen no direct change other than people still preferring to mindlessly bash things in the face rather than support those doing it. But if you were saying that post-Abyssea it was worse I would have to disagree since it let more people have access to support jobs even if normally they would have never thought about doing it because of the months it would take.

Reason I mentioned pre-Abyssea there is because I only had barely touched the game again before SoA came out, so I can not comment a lot on the Abyssea era other than the level of shouts I saw regarding it and Voidwatch prior to SoA being released. Was trying to show the amount of interaction with other players for non-endgame geared players is or has undergone a drastic reduction since Delve was released.

[Osmond]

The great divide between players is just bad business. I guess this is also true when the game dies because of bad business choices.

I always wondered why players should even considered doing end game content a business. If that was the case then they are doing a horrible job especially to the majority of the customers who wanted the same items as the minority(those who already have them). All that is that u are telling the consumers that we only pick the best to buy our stuff and leave the rest behind, that's a red flag saying u gonna go bankrupt real quick once the best got what they wanted.

[Osmond]

You mean like BCNMs? Yeah those were great they didn't require certain jobs to be able to do them, I sure hope you had BLM or RNG leveled for Worm's Turn, NIN or RDM for Under Observation, SMN for Shooting Fish the list goes on.

Outside of soloing nothing in game ever functioned without some form of role/job requirement so I don't get how now is different from then besides we have more players at level cap.

I believe back then it felt more of a balance, that everyone felt safe that the content they played won't be "DEAD". Even if ppl had relic or other high lvl gear u can catch up w/ the other players w/ being required of some sort if endgame weapon to do mass dmg or DPS. They know that alone won't cut it. It felt more of a even playfield. Idk if I explain that well, but that came to mind.

[Zagen]

I believe back then it felt more of a balance, that everyone felt safe that the content they played won't be "DEAD". Even if ppl had relic or other high lvl gear u can catch up w/ the other players w/ being required of some sort if endgame weapon to do mass dmg or DPS. They know that alone won't cut it. It felt more of a even playfield. Idk if I explain that well, but that came to mind.
I totally felt balanced when my gear got replaced as I leveled up with the exception of very few pieces. The same is true today. While our gear doesn't get outdated like it did in the past (leveling out of it) nothing has changed.

The funny thing is I hear how all the new stuff is hard to get when it's not. The reality is you as the player are artificially limiting yourself from getting that gear. PUGs filled with 'outdated gear' can take down any of the outside NMs.

[Osmond]

The funny thing is I hear how all the new stuff is hard to get when it's not. The reality is you as the player are artificially limiting yourself from getting that gear. PUGs filled with 'outdated gear' can take down any of the outside NMs.

Yet ppl keep forgetting that casual players do not want to take the time to get the latest gear as it is right now. No one willing to do that when they can find other MMO and do endgame content w/ no issues, no frustration. Im not looking at as "I" im looking at it as "them" what they have to deal with and how it can be fixed before they quit. The ppl who already have these R/E/M/D are blaming the new or casuals for not trying when it's that same talk that got them leaving hence hurting SE in the long run.

[Osmond]

Mind you they not gonna play hours on end, they just on for a few hrs a day. The only time they will last longer if the game or the community shows it, but if they aren't the same path as those who have the latest gear u well u gonna have to shout or create your LS and hope for the best. If that's the answer that they can give to the new or casual player then I don't know what to say.

[Hawklaser]

Yet ppl keep forgetting that casual players do not want to take the time to get the latest gear as it is right now. No one willing to do that when they can find other MMO and do endgame content w/ no issues, no frustration. Im not looking at as "I" im looking at it as "them" what they have to deal with and how it can be fixed before they quit. The ppl who already have these R/E/M/D are blaming the new or casuals for not trying when it's that same talk that got them leaving hence hurting SE in the long run.

Along with this, it is not necessarily the new players or casuals not trying to get the latest gear, but not being able to keep pace with the end game crowd and not having something else to work towards, or be a part of.

[Zagen]

Yet ppl keep forgetting that casual players do not want to take the time to get the latest gear as it is right now.
See this is what I don't get, you want gear on par with new stuff or rather slightly worse as that's the point of this thread by asking for TotM to be continued and not forgotten. If you don't want to take the time to get the latest gear that means you don't want to participate in new content, if you don't want to participate in new content then why do you need gear to be on par?

Please note I'm asking why you need gear on par not if you want gear on par.


No one willing to do that when they can find other MMO and do endgame content w/ no issues, no frustration.

To put it bluntly why are you or players who are thinking like this still here?

Although I am curious what MMO you can find that doesn't have gear checks for endgame content.


Im not looking at as "I" im looking at it as "them" what they have to deal with and how it can be fixed before they quit. The ppl who already have these R/E/M/D are blaming the new or casuals for not trying when it's that same talk that got them leaving hence hurting SE in the long run.


Along with this, it is not necessarily the new players or casuals not trying to get the latest gear, but not being able to keep pace with the end game crowd and not having something else to work towards, or be a part of.

My best friend in game falls under the 'casual' meets my 'ends justify the means', in other words it takes him longer but he is willing to level and gear a job within what he deems reasonable. His non SoA MNK that he geared with stuff he had for THF and AH options is outputting 500k to my 1.7mil when we trio Volatile Matamata. This isn't about bragging this is simply pointing out a few brawny MNKs (like my friend) could take down this NM.

While it wouldn't be a trio it's still doable and that's with 0 R/E/M/D requirement. All weaker gear means is adjusting your strategy for example without me my friend would need 3-4 more MNKs with similar gear and he can still farm it. Though it could be 2-3 MNKs and a BRD or COR. Oh how about instead of focusing on Hundred Fists + Formless strikes you could get a RDM who knows how to tank nuking the NM between TP moves and the MNKs (or really any DD) just go in and melee/ws at the correct time.

Like I said the person preventing a 'casual' or newer player from participating in endgame is the player themselves just like it was back at 75.

[Hawklaser]

See this is what I don't get, you want gear on par with new stuff or rather slightly worse as that's the point of this thread by asking for TotM to be continued and not forgotten. If you don't want to take the time to get the latest gear that means you don't want to participate in new content, if you don't want to participate in new content then why do you need gear to be on par?

Please note I'm asking why you need gear on par not if you want gear on par.

The biggest reason I would say for needing the expansion of TotM weapons is gear diversity. Some of the effects of TotM weapons are rather nice, and don't show up very often on gear. Like occasionally attacks twice for example.



My best friend in game falls under the 'casual' meets my 'ends justify the means', in other words it takes him longer but he is willing to level and gear a job within what he deems reasonable. His non SoA MNK that he geared with stuff he had for THF and AH options is outputting 500k to my 1.7mil when we trio Volatile Matamata. This isn't about bragging this is simply pointing out a few brawny MNKs (like my friend) could take down this NM.


I'd likely fall within the same grouping as your friend, but before I go and level a job I don't enjoy I am going to exhaust other routes I do first, then try ones I find tolerable. Like for me, before I would level and gear BLM to do anything beyond subjob use, I would likely have every other job geared and leveled first, which thanks to liking SCH, and at least finding RDM, SMN, and GEO tolerable, that is very unlikely to happen if I needed a magic nuking job.

Just on a standard DD job, if the expected average output for an event was 1.7mil and I was averaging 500k, I would not really want to be doing said event with people I did not already know unless there is are no other options available.

[Osmond]

See this is what I don't get, you want gear on par with new stuff or rather slightly worse as that's the point of this thread by asking for TotM to be continued and not forgotten. If you don't want to take the time to get the latest gear that means you don't want to participate in new content, if you don't want to participate in new content then why do you need gear to be on par?

Please note I'm asking why you need gear on par not if you want gear on par.

Wait a minute, me and others who wanted TotM to advanced was saying that the most, but it seems no one doesn't want to care because they were too focused on the "I" part. As long they progressed where they already have R/E/M/D it doesn't bother them. Again they can take the time to do it, but they aren't like those who will play all day just to do so so please keep that in mind. No one plays like everyone else, everyone have their own time frame on when and how to do things. Like Hawklaser said, it's about the pacing. While u have those who wanted the latest equ. but sometimes it doesn't work for them in some days, but by the time they have the chance ppl who already done it either stop doing them, or already move to another content that basically repeats and becomes more limited.

U are asking me why ppl need gear to fit in, to be on par. Why did u said that knowing it's beneficial to your WS, magic, etc?

[Osmond]

To put it bluntly why are you or players who are thinking like this still here?

If SE wants this game to continue to flourish they have to compete w/ other MMOs who are basically thriving right now(going against F2P MMOs puts a huge hurt to P2P MMOs. That's the truth). It makes u wonder why they are making changes to this game to be like other MMOs if u haven't noticed. If u didn't see the signs of the progression of this game then I don't know what to tell u. They need that subscriber count to stay up if they want this game to last longer. If u haven't realized by now they are losing ppl to the point they had to cut servers by half, make some older content non-lvl restricted, make dynamis easier to play, u know signs that this game is hurting despite them saying that it's the most profitable game they ever made in 10+ years.

[Zagen]

The biggest reason I would say for needing the expansion of TotM weapons is gear diversity. Some of the effects of TotM weapons are rather nice, and don't show up very often on gear. Like occasionally attacks twice for example.
You're missing a few key things here:
1) A casual who isn't focusing on current endgame which is roughly the same as level 110~120 content doesn't need weapons on par with delve weapons (designed to be at the strength of 110~120 while still reading "Lv.99").
2) If you are focusing on current end game then the weapons designed to be at the strength of 99 are more than enough until getting the newer weapons.
3) Effects that don't show up on gear often keep most of those weapons relevant even when compared to the newer weapons, as to OaT/DA see #2.

You still haven't answered the question of why someone who doesn't participate in content designed to be level 110~120 difficulty needs a weapon to be designed or rather updated to be in the 105~110 range.

I don't have a problem with TotM being upgraded though I believe if they're going to keep up with the newer weapons they should require doing newer content to advance because if you aren't doing newer content what's the point of having an upgraded weapon.


I'd likely fall within the same grouping as your friend, but before I go and level a job I don't enjoy I am going to exhaust other routes I do first, then try ones I find tolerable. Like for me, before I would level and gear BLM to do anything beyond subjob use, I would likely have every other job geared and leveled first, which thanks to liking SCH, and at least finding RDM, SMN, and GEO tolerable, that is very unlikely to happen if I needed a magic nuking job.

Just on a standard DD job, if the expected average output for an event was 1.7mil and I was averaging 500k, I would not really want to be doing said event with people I did not already know unless there is are no other options available.

My friend hates mage/support jobs that's why he geared his MNK. As to my 1.7mil keep in mind the more MNKs we have the lower my damage goes when we've gone as a LS with 1-2 more MNKs my damage drops into the 700k-1mil ranges, higher than the others but by a much smaller margin.

Let's replace him with you in my farming group using the jobs you like:
SCH or RDM could easily tank the NM while doing magical damage each cycle allowing the DD to come in and go crazy.
Like I said in the paragraph below what you quoted it's all about getting creative with strategies to fit your preference in jobs.


If SE wants this game to continue to flourish they have to compete w/ other MMOs who are basically thriving right now(going against F2P MMOs puts a huge hurt to P2P MMOs. That's the truth). It makes u wonder why they are making changes to this game to be like other MMOs if u haven't noticed. If u didn't see the signs of the progression of this game then I don't know what to tell u. They need that subscriber count to stay up if they want this game to last longer. If u haven't realized by now they are losing ppl to the point they had to cut servers by half, make some older content non-lvl restricted, make dynamis easier to play, u know signs that this game is hurting despite them saying that it's the most profitable game they ever made in 10+ years.

Using Free to Play MMOs as an example is terrible for a few reasons:
- Different type of player base
- Completely different design of game progression

Free to Play MMOs are much worse than FFXI when you consider how much more grinding is in place to make buying boosts appealing.

Would you be playing if the upcoming Double EXP/Plans weekend worked like this:

Double EXP Bonus 15 day duration: $7.50
Double Salvage Plan drops 15 day duration: $15

Yeah I'm totally interested in stupid shit like that... That's not even accounting for the fact to be on par the exp rates would be worse than they were during the 75 days pre 50-75 adjustment. Oh and you know how currently we're guaranteed 5+ plans in Salvage 2.0 when trying to farm them that would be 1-2 if we're lucky without buying the boost option.

I sure as hell wouldn't be playing if that's how it worked, then again that explains why I'm here paying my $27.90 every month and not playing a Free to Play MMO.

[Osmond]

Using Free to Play MMOs as an example is terrible for a few reasons:
- Different type of player base
- Completely different design of game progression

Free to Play MMOs are much worse than FFXI when you consider how much more grinding is in place to make buying boosts appealing.

Would you be playing if the upcoming Double EXP/Plans weekend worked like this:

Double EXP Bonus 15 day duration: $7.50
Double Salvage Plan drops 15 day duration: $15

Yeah I'm totally interested in stupid shit like that... That's not even accounting for the fact to be on par the exp rates would be worse than they were during the 75 days pre 50-75 adjustment. Oh and you know how currently we're guaranteed 5+ plans in Salvage 2.0 when trying to farm them that would be 1-2 if we're lucky without buying the boost option.

I sure as hell wouldn't be playing if that's how it worked, then again that explains why I'm here paying my $27.90 every month and not playing a Free to Play MMO.

It's funny that ppl quick to bail when their MMO switch to F2P. It lets u know where the loyalty lies. I always wondered why ppl still think F2P is the worst yet the most profitable for years abolishing P2P. U may not realize it, but what do u think they are getting these changes from? Why do u think they are trying to do whatever it takes to bring them back to this game cause they are losing numbers.

[darkhorror]

I think part of the problem people are having is that if you have a lvl 99 or will have a lvl 99 REM you will continue to get upgrades. While those who did lvl 99 of other weapons won't. Now with current REM lvl 99, people were fine with the difference between it and the lvl 99 other magian weapons. So you get lvl 99 REM getting the upgrade to new content level, while all other magian weapons don't and become not use able.

All the different magian trials were great I loved looking to see what the new stats on effects on the new weapons were going to be. Plus it gave a verity and lots of stuff to do after every update. Where we stand now it's focused on a very small part of the game. I don't really mind right now as it's new and exciting right now. Plus the gear isn't hard to get.

[Hawklaser]

You're missing a few key things here:
1) A casual who isn't focusing on current endgame which is roughly the same as level 110~120 content doesn't need weapons on par with delve weapons (designed to be at the strength of 110~120 while still reading "Lv.99").
2) If you are focusing on current end game then the weapons designed to be at the strength of 99 are more than enough until getting the newer weapons.
3) Effects that don't show up on gear often keep most of those weapons relevant even when compared to the newer weapons, as to OaT/DA see #2.

You still haven't answered the question of why someone who doesn't participate in content designed to be level 110~120 difficulty needs a weapon to be designed or rather updated to be in the 105~110 range.

I don't have a problem with TotM being upgraded though I believe if they're going to keep up with the newer weapons they should require doing newer content to advance because if you aren't doing newer content what's the point of having an upgraded weapon.


If one has no interest in the 110-120 level content they don't. However when that 120-130 range content comes out and the 100-120 content becomes mostly abandoned, there is going to need to be an alternative to the 100-120 weapons, or some way to keep the 100-120 content relevant.

Agreed, they should use the new content if they expand TotM weapons. Could use Ghastly stones from Skirmish to upgrade them to around the area of Skirmish weapons and Naakuals.

Just going to use lances as an example. Most TotM lances end with about 132 DMG, and the OAT which is considered really good is 110, the Skirmish base lance is 146, and can get augmented up to 166, the Delve plasm lance is 181, and the Delve boss lance is 266. Now if it took say 10 ghastly stone +2's to upgrade a TotM lance with +20 Damage(might need adjusting for the multi hit lines), would that be considered a good expansion? And later they could also do the same using Air elixers.

Now while the OAT lance is good as is and I would likely keep using it instead of a max augmented skirmish lance for most enemies, it becomes really questionable when compared to the delve plasm lance, especially after it gets augmented to 15/10/10 on the att or acc paths. Too bad have not yet finished the lance since not many like helping with some of its NM's, and now that Voidwatch is not as done it is likely going to be even harder if can get to that part.

[Zagen]

It's funny that ppl quick to bail when their MMO switch to F2P. It lets u know where the loyalty lies. I always wondered why ppl still think F2P is the worst yet the most profitable for years abolishing P2P. U may not realize it, but what do u think they are getting these changes from? Why do u think they are trying to do whatever it takes to bring them back to this game cause they are losing numbers.

I never said f2p was a worse business plan, I already know it's the better business model. However I'm not here as a game designer, I'm here as a player, a player who knows that he's honestly not up for the level of grinding in f2p games because I refuse to pay for the bonuses that reduce the grind. Why do I refuse? Simple, if I began I'd likely spend a lot more than I planned on spending. That mindset is exactly what has made it a superior business plan.

Outside of the random double exp weekends (double plans soon too) what's been taken from free to play that was unique to free to play MMOs?

I'd love to hear an answer because I honestly can't find one, well I could see an argument for the satchel before it was linked to the app version of the security token. As to the double exp weekends well that isn't actually unique to free to play MMOs it's been used in a lot of EXP based online game genres.


If one has no interest in the 110-120 level content they don't. However when that 120-130 range content comes out and the 100-120 content becomes mostly abandoned, there is going to need to be an alternative to the 100-120 weapons, or some way to keep the 100-120 content relevant.

Agreed, they should use the new content if they expand TotM weapons. Could use Ghastly stones from Skirmish to upgrade them to around the area of Skirmish weapons and Naakuals.

Just going to use lances as an example. Most TotM lances end with about 132 DMG, and the OAT which is considered really good is 110, the Skirmish base lance is 146, and can get augmented up to 166, the Delve plasm lance is 181, and the Delve boss lance is 266. Now if it took say 10 ghastly stone +2's to upgrade a TotM lance with +20 Damage(might need adjusting for the multi hit lines), would that be considered a good expansion? And later they could also do the same using Air elixers.

Now while the OAT lance is good as is and I would likely keep using it instead of a max augmented skirmish lance for most enemies, it becomes really questionable when compared to the delve plasm lance, especially after it gets augmented to 15/10/10 on the att or acc paths. Too bad have not yet finished the lance since not many like helping with some of its NM's, and now that Voidwatch is not as done it is likely going to be even harder if can get to that part.

Sounds like we're in agreement and your ideas are all pretty good as to how to continue them. I'd have to math the OAT to be sure but I don't think it would come out on top of the current 'best' options, should be close which imo would be fine.

[Demon6324236]

Compared to the Delve PA, the OAT is nothing, Delve with Augments is just under the PA from the Foret boss, and that one beats Ryuno unless AM3 is up at literally all times, even then, it almost wins. OAT is amazing for TP gain and spamming WSs as well as making your jumps insane, but against the Delve DMG it gets crushed, its a turning point where quality becomes better than quantity, as far as I know even Herja's beat out OAT by a bit, but not a ton, and this thing makes Herja's look like a joke, so yeah.

[Osmond]

I never said f2p was a worse business plan, I already know it's the better business model. However I'm not here as a game designer, I'm here as a player, a player who knows that he's honestly not up for the level of grinding in f2p games because I refuse to pay for the bonuses that reduce the grind. Why do I refuse? Simple, if I began I'd likely spend a lot more than I planned on spending. That mindset is exactly what has made it a superior business plan.

Let me get this straight, u have a issue about a bonus that can be paid to reduce grinding yet if u haven't noticed u don't have to pay for it w/ many F2P MMOs. They just give it to you for supporting the game or u play enough. Then again u don't play F2P right cause of your assumption? How can u say u refuse to pay to reduce grinding when u already are ex. Abyssea.

[Zagen]

Let me get this straight, u have a issue about a bonus that can be paid to reduce grinding yet if u haven't noticed u don't have to pay for it w/ many F2P MMOs. They just give it to you for supporting the game or u play enough. Then again u don't play F2P right cause of your assumption? How can u say u refuse to pay to reduce grinding when u already are ex. Abyssea.
Maybe if I actually break it down with some numbers, for example:

Pay to Play EXP value = 1
Free to Play EXP value = 0.25-0.5
Free to Play EXP added value via bonus package = +0.5-0.75

In other words to have the same EXP value I'd have to buy the bonus package. I'd in general have to buy the package several times. This is what would lead to spending more money than I intended.

I know you're trying to argue I could just stick with the EXP value of 0.25-0.5 but why when I could pay a flat fee and get the full value whenever I want instead of for an amount of time or more commonly within a time frame.

Edit: Oh and please don't think my only issue with with EXP it's just an example.

[Osmond]

I'd love to hear an answer because I honestly can't find one, well I could see an argument for the satchel before it was linked to the app version of the security token. As to the double exp weekends well that isn't actually unique to free to play MMOs it's been used in a lot of EXP based online game genres.

Yes, it's not unique I can agree w/ that. The problem in what FFXI did is that the only purpose for double exp weekend is to lvl it to 30 quicker and u can leech it to 99 in abyssea, then again it's a pointless event if u already have Field/grounds of valor. The only reason I see this to try to be on par w/ their competition...it's not really needed.

I don't think I can find a argument for the Mog Satchel. Whether u using the software or the original will still get the item unless SE did something stupid.

[Zagen]

Compared to the Delve PA, the OAT is nothing, Delve with Augments is just under the PA from the Foret boss, and that one beats Ryuno unless AM3 is up at literally all times, even then, it almost wins. OAT is amazing for TP gain and spamming WSs as well as making your jumps insane, but against the Delve DMG it gets crushed, its a turning point where quality becomes better than quantity, as far as I know even Herja's beat out OAT by a bit, but not a ton, and this thing makes Herja's look like a joke, so yeah.

Do you realize Hawklaser and I are talking about if the OAT got updated with more damage and not in it's current form?

[Zagen]

I don't think I can find a argument for the Mog Satchel. Whether u using the software or the original will still get the item unless SE did something stupid.

The argument that can be made for the satchel is one that I did and I'm sure many others did too which is we paid for the satchel and not the actual token. So much like F2P players we paid for extra inventory instead of the added security.

[Osmond]

Maybe if I actually break it down with some numbers, for example:

Pay to Play EXP value = 1
Free to Play EXP value = 0.25-0.5
Free to Play EXP added value via bonus package = +0.5-0.75

In other words to have the same EXP value I'd have to buy the bonus package. I'd in general have to buy the package several times. This is what would lead to spending more money than I intended.

I know you're trying to argue I could just stick with the EXP value of 0.25-0.5 but why when I could pay a flat fee and get the full value whenever I want instead of for an amount of time or more commonly within a time frame.

Edit: Oh and please don't think my only issue with with EXP it's just an example.

Umm, a few things in mind. 1(and I believe I already said this before) no one has the same mindset as other ppl. They can be fine accepting the EXP value of 0.25-0.5 cause at the end of the day they don't have to pay anything, it's all optional. 2, I didn't start the argument, I didn't come out and make out random prices to prove a point that F2P is a bad move for players. I just said that due to the issues regarding this game and where it's gonna head, cause they competing other MMOs w/ that practice.

[Osmond]

The argument that can be made for the satchel is one that I did and I'm sure many others did too which is we paid for the satchel and not the actual token. So much like F2P players we paid for extra inventory instead of the added security.

Oh yeah, I completely forgotten about that. Then again if the person knows that the game gonna be hacked they wouldn't put money on a F2P game, it's would be common sense.

[Zagen]

Umm, a few things in mind. 1(and I believe I already said this before) no one has the same mindset as other ppl. They can be fine accepting the EXP value of 0.25-0.5 cause at the end of the day they don't have to pay anything, it's all optional. 2, I didn't start the argument, I didn't come out and make out random prices to prove a point that F2P is a bad move for players. I just said that due to the issues regarding this game and where it's gonna head, cause they competing other MMOs w/ that practice.

I get that others are okay with that idea, I'm sorry if my personal feelings as a gamer about F2P were misinterpreted.

As to making up numbers you're right I did make them up but hey looking at Maple Story where 1 day of 2x EXP Bonus costs just under $10 my numbers are a great deal!

[Osmond]

I get that others are okay with that idea, I'm sorry if my personal feelings as a gamer about F2P were misinterpreted.

As to making up numbers you're right I did make them up but hey looking at Maple Story where 1 day of 2x EXP Bonus costs just under $10 my numbers are a great deal!

Nah, no need to apologize. I do like to hear ppls opinions of things and debate to make a middle ground.

[Demon6324236]

Do you realize Hawklaser and I are talking about if the OAT got updated with more damage and not in it's current form?Nope, I was mostly reading the last part which said

Now while the OAT lance is good as is and I would likely keep using it instead of a max augmented skirmish lance for most enemiesSorry, was busy and speed reading, it caught my attention so I quickly replied. :x

[RAIST]

The argument that can be made for the satchel is one that I did and I'm sure many others did too which is we paid for the satchel and not the actual token. So much like F2P players we paid for extra inventory instead of the added security.

Actually, no... we bought the token. Now, one's motive might have ultimately leaned more towards one or the other (my purpose was the token for the security, as my account got hijacked in the past)....but technically, we bought the token and the satchel was a bonus received for activating/linking that token to the account.

See how that works? You had to physically recieve the token and link/activate it in order to get the satchel. In order to have that token device shipped to you, you had to pay for it first. What you are saying implies people simply paid money and got a virtual good in the same manner as they can in F2P games.

I admit though, the satchel made it more appealing and may have ultimately conviced those who might have been on the fence about buying it. But there are people out there that would have gotten it just for the added layer of security.

Note also that such practice (paying directly for virtual goods) is illegal at worst, problematic at best in some regions where FFXI was originally distributed and/or played. That's why there are issues with Crysta availability for some people. So, SE could get into a real pickle for engaging in such activity. So, from SE's legal standpoint, we almost had to buy a physical good (or at least a license for a software product or something like that) in order to obtain the virtual goods.

[Hawklaser]

Compared to the Delve PA, the OAT is nothing, Delve with Augments is just under the PA from the Foret boss, and that one beats Ryuno unless AM3 is up at literally all times, even then, it almost wins. OAT is amazing for TP gain and spamming WSs as well as making your jumps insane, but against the Delve DMG it gets crushed, its a turning point where quality becomes better than quantity, as far as I know even Herja's beat out OAT by a bit, but not a ton, and this thing makes Herja's look like a joke, so yeah.

Exactly, which is why updating the TotM weapons would be useful. Especially when consider how fast skirmish died, and the augmented weapons from there and wildskeeper rieves were intended as the stepping stones to Delve. Only a couple of lances besides RME that I know of that were as good or better than the OAT one pre-SoA, Herja's is one, other is Delphinus. The delve plasm weapons crush so many other weapons, the content meant to be the inbetween for pre-SoA and Delve died very fast.

Which if used the Ghastly Stones from skirmish to upgrade TotM weapons damage alone, would likely reinvigorate skirmish seeing as it is a more low-man friendly event, and help serve as a good stepping stone into Delve. Just consider a 130 damage OAT lance compared to the 181 of the plasm lance. Not sure on how often Ryuno's AM3 causes double/triple attacks, but its damage is at 151 and has other other perks and its having a hard time keeping up with the plasm lance. Which means might even be able have OAT at 150 damage, to be a more viable option for when going after more than plasm farming.

[Zagen]

Actually, no... we bought the token. Now, one's motive might have ultimately leaned more towards one or the other (my purpose was the token for the security, as my account got hijacked in the past)....but technically, we bought the token and the satchel was a bonus received for activating/linking that token to the account.

See how that works? You had to physically recieve the token and link/activate it in order to get the satchel. In order to have that token device shipped to you, you had to pay for it first. What you are saying implies people simply paid money and got a virtual good in the same manner as they can in F2P games.

I admit though, the satchel made it more appealing and may have ultimately conviced those who might have been on the fence about buying it. But there are people out there that would have gotten it just for the added layer of security.

Note also that such practice (paying directly for virtual goods) is illegal at worst, problematic at best in some regions where FFXI was originally distributed and/or played. That's why there are issues with Crysta availability for some people. So, SE could get into a real pickle for engaging in such activity. So, from SE's legal standpoint, we almost had to buy a physical good (or at least a license for a software product or something like that) in order to obtain the virtual goods.

Okay... you're right technically I did buy the token and not the satchel however the moment my satchel was active I deactivated the token, thus making it a key chain that generated a random string that served no purpose. The point was that's essentially the one thing SE has done thus far that could potentially be tied to a unique aspect of the free to play model if you looked at it that way.

[Kaeviathan]

If they are to upgrade E/R/M weapons, then please include the double attack path as well. I can't cope with my Majimun katana being useless.

[Rustic]

What people fail to realize here is that Adoulin is basically a new path for the game.

Items are not sidegrades, they are upgrades- they are the "level up" post-99. R/M/E weapons were gear upgrades to go with leveling up the old fashioned way on the path to 99. Adoulin gear is effectively designed to make you level 100+ when wearing it.

This is akin to complaining that they haven't upgraded the gear on NM's from Zilart (or perhaps Garrison) so that you can use it to beat up Nakuaals without breaking a sweat. Adoulin is designed to render earlier gear obsolete, whether it was last expansion or 10 years ago. You want the top of the line? Go do Adoulin and stop complaining that you can't get the best out of previous portions of the game- that started to die with Wings, it got kicked in the groin with atmas and Abyssea, and Adoulin used {Mercy Stroke} and put it out of it's misery. Don't want to do Adoulin? The rest of the game wasn't designed for it's level of power anyway. Work on those R/M/E's and be happy with your shiny old-school toys in the older parts of the world.