Follow-up: Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Walk of Echoes Weapons

[Camate]

Greetings everyone,

Thanks for all of your patience while the development team discussed all the feedback in this thread. Below is a very lengthy post from Producer Akihiko Matsui as a follow-up to the plans for relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons.

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Matsui here.

Thank you all so much for the feedback on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes weapons. It has helped out tremendously.

After reading over all of your feedback, instead of continuing the growth of these weapons by unlocking the weapon skills that are tied to each of the weapons, I feel it would be better to perform a revamp on RME weapons. (Regarding Walk of Echoes weapons, I will talk about this below, but they will be involved with unlocking the specialized weapon skills.)

I've been reworking a lot, and writing it all up, but it seems the post turned out rather lengthy, so once you have been able to read through it all and digest it we'd love to hear your feedback.

Content Level
We've received a lot of questions about the stats on Adoulin equipment, and I'd like to once again explain about growth and content levels in Seekers of Adoulin as this is a critical aspect in order to receive feedback on the revamps for RME weapons.

The content in Adoulin has been designed with a repeating play-cycle where you challenge content that you are able to at that moment in time, gather equipment, become stronger, and then take on higher tier content which will allow you to gather even stronger equipment.

It's through the procurement of equipment that will allow players to grow and level up.

We've established content levels for Adoulin content as a means to objectively display difficulty benchmarks. The below is a concrete illustration of these content levels.

<table width="600" border="0"> <tr> <td width="11%" align="center">20</td> <td width="1%" style="border-style:none;"></td> <td width="20%" align="center">Delve (Boss monsters)</td> <td width="1%" style="border-style:none;"></td> <td width="20%" style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">19</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">18</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">17</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">New Additions to Wildskeeper Reives</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">16</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">15</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">14</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Delve (NM group 2)</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">13</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">New additions to Skirmish</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">12</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">11</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Delve (NM group 1)</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">10</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">9</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td rowspan="4" align="center">New additions to <br> Colonization/Lair Reives</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">8</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Wildskeeper Reives</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center">Skirmish</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td rowspan="5" align="center">Colonization/Lair Reives</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">1</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Content Level</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Up to April 2013</td> <td style="border-style:none;"></td> <td align="center" style="border-style:none;">Next version update (currently adjusting)</td> </tr></table>

Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).

The strength of the monsters that will be introduced are matched to that of the content level, but since there is somewhat of a solidified hierarchy between content, it's been setup so that the strength can be felt with even one level difference in content level. Oppositely, the parameters on Adoulin equipment have been calculated and set in order to deal with these monsters.

Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.

Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.

In the next version update we will be adding content focusing on filling in the gaps as well as supplementing with content variation.

In the above chart, please look at the “Next version update (currently adjusting)” column. For content levels 6-9 (Skirmish/Wildskeeper Reives), we will be adding equipment appropriate for these content levels that can be exchanged for Bayld along with new Colonization and Lair Reives. Additionally, we will be filling in content for levels 13 and 17.

For those players who are already able to take on Skirmish, Wildskeeper Reives, and Delve at this point in time, it will not be absolutely necessary to challenge this content, but we will be making the above adjustments in case you want to increase your success rate, or are feeling that the current situation is still a bit tough.

Also, as a plan to resolve the issue where Skirmish is not really connecting the content as was planned, we will be undergoing maintenance at the end of this week and making it so statue segments can be obtained from Colonization and Lair Reives at a set rate. (These adjustments are separate from the rules associated with obtaining these items via Coalition Assignments, HELM, and Soul Pyres.)

By performing these adjustments we envision the below flow:

Challenge Colonization and Lair Reives
Obtain statue segments by participating in these reives
Challenge Skirmish with the parts you have obtained



Weapon Revamps
Sorry, I got off track for a bit, but now I'd like to return to the topic at hand.

To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.

In regards to the kind of stats that will be added when we revamp these weapons, fundamentally the afterglow and aftermath effects as well as the other special stats will carry over and we'll be setting damage values, attack, and accuracy stats to coincide with the content level.

While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.

However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

With that said, there may be players who are worried if these weapons will eventually become unusable, but to give an example we had the lead make some calculations for the stats needed to combat the Delve boss monsters, and the below is what the RME swords would look like:

Excalibur


DMG: 73 Delay: 233 Attack+40 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP


↓


DMG: 121 Delay: 233 Attack+60 Accuracy+20 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP



Burtgang


DMG: 73 Delay: 264 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice


↓


DMG: 131 Delay: 264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice



Almace


DMG: 70 Delay: 224 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage


↓


DMG: 114 Delay: 224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage


In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.


In conclusion…
Apologies that this post is so long, but based on all of the above we would love to hear your feedback on the revamps to level 99 RME weapons and unlocking weapon skills with Walk of Echoes weapons.

I will be sure to read over each and every comment you all post.

My thoughts and ideas have completely turned around the plans that were originally drawn up, and I had to sit and really discuss the idea with the rest of the development team, including the possibilities of making this happen.

I apologize that this response was late and that I made you all wait.

Thank you all very much.
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[FrankReynolds]

Greetings everyone....
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WoW! This all sounds a million times more promising than what was originally discussed and makes far more sense as well.

Props to you sir.

[Sfchakan]

So far, so good. Continue with this plan!

[Unctgtg]

I will go along with this as something promising. Since this is a just a stepping stone and probably 4-5 months out, I would like to see what you have planned.

[Eijii]

This sounds really good Matsui..... keep it up brother man!

[Byrth]

While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.

However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, than you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

I would like some clarification on the bolded and underlined phrases:

* Bold - So there will not be small incremental jumps in performance. That's okay. Will there be regular jumps in performance, though, or will RMEs be outdated in the future?

* Underlined - The type of players that make RMEs aren't going to be happy unless they're using one of the best weapons for their job. Are you going to keep RMEs among the best weapons for the respective jobs?


I personally do not mind if there are competitive alternatives to my RMEs from Delve/etc., but I would like to know that the effort I invested in making them was not wasted. I would like to always be able to use Terpsichore, for instance. Is this going to be the case?

[Seyomeyo]

This sounds like what should actually be happening. Thank you Camate and Matsui-san

[Gakaroth]

From what I'm seeing here, these weapons still don't warrant the effort that we put into them over the years, May I instead propose this:

2handed model -

lv75 Relic/Mythic: +10 dmg
lv80 relic/mythic: +15 dmg
Lv85 R/M/E: +15 dmg
lv90 R/M/E: +15 dmg +5 acc/att
lv95 R/M/E: +15 dmg +5 acc/att
lv99 R/M/E: +20 dmg +10 acc/att

(+90 dmg +20 acc/att using Ukonosvra 99 as example, would be 246 dmg 20 acc 20 att 20 str occ deals double dmg putting it just above the delve weaponry in sheer damage power)

1handed model -

lv75 Relic/Mythic: +5 dmg
lv80 relic/mythic: +5 dmg
Lv85 R/M/E: +10 dmg
lv90 R/M/E: +10 dmg +5 acc/att
lv95 R/M/E: +10 dmg +5 acc/att
lv99 R/M/E: +15 dmg +10 acc/att

(+55 dmg +20 acc/att total which is close to the proposed model, using your almace as an example, would be 125 dmg 20 acc 20 att and 20 dex occasionally deals double dmg putting it much closer to any other sword recently released)


This puts them on par with the far more easily obtainable weapons from delve, and is also reasonably easy to code, you'd just need to change base dmg in the calculations etc... I think my proposed model is not brokenly overpowered, or going to destroy the game at all, but instead revive the weaponry we've worked so hard to obtain over the years, and providing the info in a format like this makes it easy for people to understand what boosts to expect level by level.

[Zhronne]

So RME will be good but not "ultimate" anymore. Just a good alternative.
Not uber, not shit.
And Empy WS unlocked via WoE, making WoE weapons interesting, finally.

What can I say? I'm happy. Thanks Matsui :)

[Areayea]

well that's the awesomest thing you guys have said as of late (I did read it a little earlier on the JP forums >.>) anyway, I would hope that you are sticking to your word that this damage increase will be for lvl 99 R/E/Ms only, the reason why I say this is because I agree with it, wa wa you can farm a zone boss 25~50 times, I don't think that warrants auto 99 stats, now paying for plates, that might, it shows more dedication, I've already seen in other forums people saying that they want the upgrades included in the lvl 85~95 weapons as well, I disagree with that, simply because it leads back to the "pick which one you really want to upgrade". as for the "Option" I think that's perfect, especially since that leaves us with an additional R/E/M weapon, so I guess will soon spell out Dream? lol all we need is an A weapon... sorry off topic, anyway looking at the stats on the Delve weapons it does seem plausable if the other weapons were boosted, it could definetly JOIN the ranks of a R/E/M, not render them useless (which is what this new plan looks like it is going to do); which in that case, I think that Relics still are just great for the attack, mess with various AMs, Mythics are still going to be very job specific (although I would hope that you still are going to put the various mage buffs into those as well, as they will be difficult to implement with the new weapons having x5 the stats), of course I'd hope that Empys still are being built for their AM and the Double damage, and now these new Delve weapons are probably just going to be used for the pure stats on them. So now we have D/R/E/M weapons. I'm intrigued.

[xiozen]

Thank you so much for taking into account the original direction this development course has taken for so many years... I refer to the R/E/M weapons and their vision as being the "ultimate weapons" for their class.:p

I understand based on the above that you have decided to change this view with the introduction of Delve weapons--I also understand that, based on your comment that the original plans have been changed, that this was not initially considered or effectively brought to the table.:confused:

I would like to suggest that in the future, should you decide on a course for this late-stage game, 11 year old MMO, that you do not do so, so haphazardly. I have been an on-going subscriber since 2003 and my subscription has never lapsed. I also own only one lvl 99 empyrean which I feel, as a casual player--not entirely hardcore for a few years now--I have seriously invested much of my time, energy, and gil into to create. The notion that there are those who have done even more based on the original vision regarding R/E/M weapons and the fact that this would be tossed aside so haphazardly, is a little disturbing.:(

I do acknowledge and hope, based on your change of plans, that you are more careful as it relates to "significant" game playing adjustments in the near and far off future--so that you take into account, not only from a game play perspective, but also from the perspective of an established "tradition" the development team (pre-2009 development team) themselves created--not to undo it all because of "some vision"--to the degree that it eclipses what an entire player base has been accustomed too.

Again, I believe you are on the right track;) and look forward to continuing my subscription, as well as trying the new content in greater depth, now that I realize all of my efforts (concerning my R/E/M weapon) has not been without merit.:cool:

;) :) :D :p :o

[Kojo]

The proposal sounds great. I'm looking forward to playing now, I feel like I'm building towards something again.

Camate, can you perhaps ask the Dev team if they'd consider allowing post-ToAU jobs to use Relics since they are no longer the "Ultimate" weapons? I think their reasons for not allowing newer jobs to use them was that they'd be too powerful.

[Phafi]

so for weapons like Laevateinn, Murgleis and Tupsimati, will these be receiving just the attack and accuracy+ as well, or will you provide them useful stats like "all element affinity DMG/ACC+5/6" or something that isn't just "more magic atk. bonus". judging from the delve and skirmish armor, it seems like melee potency is getting a significantly larger increase than magic potency (barring avatars)

[xiozen]

so for weapons like Laevateinn, Murgleis and Tupsimati, will these be receiving just the attack and accuracy+ as well, or will you provide them useful stats like "all element affinity DMG/ACC+5/6" or something that isn't just "more magic atk. bonus". judging from the delve and skirmish armor, it seems like melee potency is getting a significantly larger increase than magic potency (barring avatars)

I can only surmise based on the post that the team would need to look at each type (R/E/M) of weapon individually and determine the most effective adjustment necessary for that job. So your observations are spot on; as I am also confident that they will ensure they address those areas of the job (via the weapon) that makes the most sense.

[Antanias]

Will newer jobs be able to utilize these weapons? ToAU and forward can't use relic and RUN and GEO aren't able to equip empyreans. I'd like to see RUN utilize Ragnarok :D

[Leiberfond]

Hello, and thank you Dev team. This post really does make me very happy and enough to register on the forums and make my first post to you guys. I think that most everything that was proposed is a good if not great idea but there are some things I would like you guys to consider.
1. If You are going to use the Coin Weapons to unlock Empyrean Weapon Skills (not a bad idea) consider making them unlockable if you did the Empyrean path as well. Possibly Coin Weapons unlocking Weaponskill at 99 but Empyrean Unlocking weaponskill at 90.
2. With Mythic and Empyrean Weapon Skills unlockable can we get a quest to unlock Relic weapon skills as well. Possibly a WeaponSkill point trial using the Stage 1 Relic with no upgrades. (this does make the "In Dynamis:" unlock on stage 4 somewhat useless though.
Thank you dev team for your consideration and these updates.

[Kojo]

Will newer jobs be able to utilize these weapons? ToAU and forward can't use relic and RUN and GEO aren't able to equip empyreans. I'd like to see RUN utilize Ragnarok :D

As would I. Or atleast get access to the WoE weapon to get Torcleaver.

[Lotto]

To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.


While it doesn't seem bad, it still means the R/E/Ms users will be stuck with useless weapons for a few months at least.

Also you're planning to make the R/E/Ms as an alternative, well guess what, people who invested their time and money in those weapons made it to be able to use the best possible weapon. If the Delve weapons are better we won't use our R/E/Ms just because we "like them".

[Insaniac]

Will Emp WSs unlocked via WoE weapons be usable with Mythic AM3? I'm sure your sword stats are just a mock up but if your intention is to have the 3 somewhat closely balanced you have overlooked the powerhouse that would be a Conqueror spamming Ukko's fury with occasionally attacks twice or thrice.

Edit: I think I smashed 2 points into one post so to clarify.

a) Mythics DPS has always taken into account that they have additional utility properties (yes some of them are terrible) and a crazy good AM3.

b) I believe that the strength of the associated WSs were accounted for initially as well. After some magian trials and some merits WSs though, the balance was shifted quite a bit putting some Mythics very far ahead of their counterpart Relic and Emp. If you look at Ryunohige for example, it already has access to the strongest available WS in addition to it's aftermath and currently very competitive base damage. Due to this it absolutely crushes Gungnir and Rhongomiant.

You are looking at creating similar situations across the board if you give mythics the highest damage rating best aftermath and access to the very powerful Emp WSs. I think mythics should probably be a bit ahead of anything else due to the massive effort required compared to the other weapons but I don't think the gap you would be creating is what it should be.

[Phafi]

Will Emp WSs unlocked via WoE weapons be usable with Mythic AM3? I'm sure your sword stats are just a mock up but if your intention is to have the 3 somewhat closely balanced you have overlooked the powerhouse that would be a Conqueror spamming Ukko's fury with occasionally attacks twice or thrice.
sshshhhshsshshshshhh i already traded in a sturdy axe (which could very quickly change into laev or murgleis if they get affinity+) as a hope to only play paladin about half the time rather than all the time!

[Areayea]

While it doesn't seem bad, it still means the R/E/Ms users will be stuck with useless weapons for a few months at least.

Also you're planning to make the R/E/Ms as an alternative, well guess what, people who invested their time and money in those weapons made it to be able to use the best possible weapon. If the Delve weapons are better we won't use our R/E/Ms just because we "like them".

it's people like you why we can't have nice things. I'm not trying to completely discredit what you said, but if you think about it I'd hope you didn't think that they were going to release a new expansion with more alternatives, and more content (I. E. Gear/weapons/ect.). I'm excited now we have options, that's all i got out of his post is that they're going to give us "options" when it comes to delve weapons or we still wanna use the items we've spent years on. that some people will continue to spend years on.


Will Emp WSs unlocked via WoE weapons be usable with Mythic AM3? I'm sure your sword stats are just a mock up but if your intention is to have the 3 somewhat closely balanced you have overlooked the powerhouse that would be a Conqueror spamming Ukko's fury with occasionally attacks twice or thrice.

I'm sure it'll be just like the Mythic weaponskills... unlock-able but useless, now they might have a couple that are good, but if you remember correctly Mandalic Stab Thfs EVERYWHERE used, and people still unlock just to use Leaden Salute. So I'm sure it's going to be along those same lines :D.

[Momokiri]

Mr. Matsui needs to keep in mind that a choice between weapons is only a choice if the overall performance between the two weapons is VERY close. If he plans to continually outclass RME in terms of performance he needs to understand that he is effectively eliminating this concept of choice that he is mentioning. Further, if this proposed RME upgrade system is not dynamic to continually adjust with new tiers of Delve content, this is going to continue to be a problem until the servers go down. So, I don't understand how he could imply that this isn't going to need constant changing as the game moves forward. Peoples' feelings are not going to be different in 6 months to a year when 400DMG weapons are out and this all happens again.

[Scooter]

I call shit on this. Can you say wasted time. r/m/e were made to be the best and you just obsolete them in one fell swoop then say we will give you a little bite of something better but will let the world eclipse you in your effort to appease the "casual" player. r/m/e were made to be top weapons and should stay that way.

[Insaniac]

sshshhhshsshshshshhh i already traded in a sturdy axe (which could very quickly change into laev or murgleis if they get affinity+) as a hope to only play paladin about half the time rather than all the time!I'M SORRRYYYY!!!!!!!

[Zumi]

Yay to Ragnarok War coming back lol

[Areayea]

I call shit on this. Can you say wasted time. r/m/e were made to be the best and you just obsolete them in one fell swoop then say we will give you a little bite of something better but will let the world eclipse you in your effort to appease the "casual" player. r/m/e were made to be top weapons and should stay that way.


did you not see the stats on the new swords, they're trying to throw us what we want, but again like I said before they want new good content, which is why they've introduced the new weapons. The main reason why they had to release stronger stuff was because this is the first actual expansion pack (even ad-on) since the raise to lvl 99, meaning there was NO difficult content prior to SoA, which is great for old players since we erred on the side of Harder = funner, I just think that things have gotten too easy (remember to build a relic you used to have to be part of a giant dyna ls, and every entrance, you HAD to pay to enter and most the time you just wanted equipment anyway)

[Raksha]

Why would I spend 300million gil on a corvette, when i can get a camaro for 30k plasm?


This seems like an acceptable change to me even though i still think they're back asswards on that point.

Perhaps since RME will no longer be the best, we can see some currency requirement reductions. Papa needs a new Conqueror.

[Kojo]

did you not see the stats on the new swords, they're trying to throw us what we want, but again like I said before they want new good content, which is why they've introduced the new weapons. The main reason why they had to release stronger stuff was because this is the first actual expansion pack (even ad-on) since the raise to lvl 99, meaning there was NO difficult content prior to SoA, which is great for old players since we erred on the side of Harder = funner, I just think that things have gotten too easy (remember to build a relic you used to have to be part of a giant dyna ls, and every entrance, you HAD to pay to enter and most the time you just wanted equipment anyway)

Personally, I think they need to do as he is proposing asap, THEN once SoA's content is fully released, relics should be put back on top again. Basically, let Relics temporarily take a backseat through SoA, then once SoA is completely implemented Relics get another boost. This would let new gear have it's time.

[Areayea]

Buramenk'ah 99 Sword DMG:130 Delay:240 STR+13 Accuracy+25 Attack+25 "Double Attack"+3% RDM / PLD / BLU

that's the strongest new sword... now just for funs sake we're gonna compare that to the hardest of the R/M/Es to get (keep in mind that no matter what you get Aftermath when you have the R/E/M so that's another booster) the mythic, the stats are

DMG: 131 Delay: 264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice

Burtgang now officially out does that sword, so... I think that they're just awkwardly now going to make them all on par with eachother... again so now we have D/R/E/M weapons

even if you compare the easiest (let's be honest 1500 HMPs isn't THAT hard to get...) the almace, it's stats are:
DMG: 114 Delay: 224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage

looking at that you realize it's a little less delay (which is better anyway for 1 handed weapons) and it still has it's aftermath on it's ws plus a stat booster, where as the sword just improves the fSTR values, which the attack does anyway on the new Almace.

So just by looking at these, they're grinding their teeth while they say now the relics/empys/mythics are ON PAR with the new Delve weapons

[Areayea]

Personally, I think they need to do as he is proposing asap, THEN once SoA's content is fully released, relics should be put back on top again. Basically, let Relics temporarily take a backseat through SoA, then once SoA is completely implemented Relics get another boost. This would let new gear have it's time.

tbh I'd rather have options, nobody has acquired one of the new delve weapons anyway, I think that the bosses of delve are a lot harder than we're letting on (remember to make the craftable weapons YOU HAVE to get a drop off one of the Delve Naakuals), were as the new R/E/M stats are much MUCH better than the plasma weapons.

plus this might be a good time that they're going to revamp mythic weapons... since that's been needed for years (since they assumed that mythics were going to be like these new weapons and "everyone can get one")

[Insaniac]

Is there gonna be some sort of horrible task we have to do for these upgrades or are they just gonna happen? I'm conflicted on which I would prefer cause I feel like I've already done a crap load of work for my 2 99s but handing people top tier weapons capable of challenging "level 20" content undermines the whole tiered progression system.

[Raksha]

30k plasm npnp

[Oceanz]

Greetings everyone,


Weapon Revamps








However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

---

Dear Mr. Matsui,
Thank you for sharing how you feel. It is of the utmost importance that how you feel is communicated to us. I'm glad the direction the game is taking is based on your feelings about weapons that took some of hundreds of manpower hours to quest.

I'm glad that your feelings are what is ruining the game for many of us, and the memories we have of it. It would have been devastating to us all if you had made such decisions based on more than your feelings, like perhaps, our feelings.

But since you are the game producer, it is important that your feelings are what guide this game's progression and not the player base or customers' sentiments.

This is a solid plan for success and I can see FFXI lasting another decade and your player base growing exponentially.

Please keep up the great work. I wish I could stay to see how wonderfully you progress, but I don't feel like it.
Your feelings matter so much to us.


Keep feeling.

[Lotto]

it's people like you why we can't have nice things. I'm not trying to completely discredit what you said, but if you think about it I'd hope you didn't think that they were going to release a new expansion with more alternatives, and more content (I. E. Gear/weapons/ect.). I'm excited now we have options, that's all i got out of his post is that they're going to give us "options" when it comes to delve weapons or we still wanna use the items we've spent years on. that some people will continue to spend years on.


Don't get me wrong, it's good thing that they introduce new things (I still hope for new missions and not in Wotg style...) but my point is no matter what, when they have a choice, players will always choose the best option available and not because they just like a weapon.

Also my main problem with all that R/E/Ms drama is that devs didn't see it coming. If they managed to screw up that bad once and if they keep releasing new weapons, you can be sure this will happen again. I just hope that in the future they'll think twice before releasing new gear, I don't want another "Sorry we didn't realize what we did but on the other side we have no answers for you because we didn't think about it".

[xiozen]

Suggestion: I understand the development team needs to determine implementation, however, short of just immediate execution based on the proposed adjustments mentioned in the OP, I honestly don't think too much thought should be put into it... my reasoning...

As an example look at what it takes to procure a mythic...any mythic weapon... the quests, the alexandrite, then the multiple trials to get it to 99...

I repeat: ...short of just immediate execution (meaning, adjustments to base DMG, +an applicable stats, such as attack, accuracy etc. based on the proposed adjustments mentioned in the OP, I honestly don't think too much thought should be put into it.

I truly would hate to see more work added on to something just to make it relevant again...after the expansion made it irrelevant.

[Pippy]

One thing to consider is maybe having empyrean weapons also unlock the weapon skills. From what it sounds like Empyrean and Relic weapons will be oudated, will someone who has a 99 empyrean but decides to use a delve weapon will they have to make a WoE weapon just to use the weapon skill? As someone who's done a lot of the camp NM trials I can tell you first hand they are tedious and not at all fun. Also what about the 99 relic weapon users?

[Alhanelem]

This latest dev post sounds considerably better than the one before, and I also apprciate the more explicit content level explanation.

[Zumi]

WoE coins seem to all been bought out on my server (extremely over priced ones now). Since JPs got the news first about unlocking the WS with WoE weapons.

[Arkista]

Dear Dev Team anyway you guys can make it so we can trade in any level R/E for just the WS? Like take the lvl 85 Version of a Emp weapon and make it so we can trade it to the Magian Moogle to unlock the WS only and lose the weapon forever.

Because making a lvl 99 WoE weapon just to get a the WS is now out the window cause prices of dies and residues just went from 30k to 200k+ on my server from yesterday.

[Arkista]

WoE coins seem to all been bought out on my server (extremely over priced ones now). Since JPs got the news first about unlocking the WS with WoE weapons.

Ya total shit that soon as theres a way to make fast gil people are sorry as hell and do it and buy everything up like last week when people found out about the Pya'Ekue Belt people went and bought up Phos belts for 4mil and started selling them for 10-15mil+.

[Alerith]

So why am I making a 99 RME anything (short of instrument or shield) for all the time and effort it will take when I can spend considerably less time and effort getting something better?

The problem has not been solved.


Dear Mr. Matsui,
Thank you for sharing how you feel. It is of the utmost importance that how you feel is communicated to us. I'm glad the direction the game is taking is based on your feelings about weapons that took some of hundreds of manpower hours to quest.

I'm glad that your feelings are what is ruining the game for many of us, and the memories we have of it. It would have been devastating to us all if you had made such decisions based on more than your feelings, like perhaps, our feelings.

But since you are the game producer, it is important that your feelings are what guide this game's progression and not the player base or customers' sentiments.

This is a solid plan for success and I can see FFXI lasting another decade and your player base growing exponentially.

Please keep up the great work. I wish I could stay to see how wonderfully you progress, but I don't feel like it.
Your feelings matter so much to us.


Keep feeling.

I am sad that I only have but one like to give.

[Cahlum]

REM are back to being king again. The base DMG increase on the mythic example given are more than the HQ sword from the T rex Naakuul. Even the slightly lower ones will totally demolish the delve weapons which is how it should be.

Unlocking the WS should be abandoned as would totally break any form of game balance. Ukkos Fury on Mythic GA for example. Victory Smite on Glanzfaust etc.

A very good start and a much more promising idea than what you proposed earlier. Please abandon the changes to the coin weapons.

[Twille]

This is some good news, i'm glad SE took the time to come up with a new plan of action. Good work!

[Insaniac]

Unlocking the WS should be abandoned as would totally break any form of game balance. Ukkos Fury on Mythic GA for example. Victory Smite on Glanzfaust etc.They should probably make the WoE unlocked emp WSs remove any active aftermaths.

[Cahlum]

They should probably make the WoE unlocked emp WSs remove any active aftermaths.
Of course they wont have the aftermath but it will still be absolutely broken for some combinations.

[detlef]

Dear Dev Team anyway you guys can make it so we can trade in any level R/E for just the WS? Like take the lvl 85 Version of a Emp weapon and make it so we can trade it to the Magian Moogle to unlock the WS only and lose the weapon forever.

Because making a lvl 99 WoE weapon just to get a the WS is now out the window cause prices of dies and residues just went from 30k to 200k+ on my server from yesterday.I haven't been in WoE for awhile, but I've heard that it's very easy now. There's a reason why you saw so many Dice and Residue for sale.

[Zeldar]

This plan sounds much better than the previous plan . I am wondering though if the boosts will take effect on the first lvl99 version, or on afterglow only? The afterglow weapons are silly to obtain to some. I do realize that many people farm and craft day and night to get them, but also suspect that the difficulty in obtaining them leads many to buy gil. I don't want only gil-buyerss to get the goods !! lol

[Zephrose]

Honestly, I think the additional content explanation is a good start to relay the intended message to the community. In the past, we the players have always raced for the best gear possible regardless of a stepping stone present. Some players would eventually wise up and get the gear needed to complete the next content. If not fallen into such gear accidentally.

As for the explanation for the gear required, and this is just a suggestion, would it be possible to add the expected level of the gear to the gear some how. Like a level grade for the gear. Not to copy an similar system, such as World of Warcraft and other, but it did allow for players to grasp their current potential for the content available. Thoughts from others?

Lastly... As much as I like the RME/C weapons and I understand the feelings of others time spent, I believe it to be status quo for MMOs to make previous gear obsolete with the new content rolling in. Final Fantasy Xi is no different and has done it for years. Why should a select few be so privileged to have their wasted time spent rewarded by wasting your time more on something so meaningless? Why not make it so those legendary weapons help achieve the next weapon, or the start of one, into the new content? Thoughts?

I don't intend to be brash or inflict any pain on any individuals, this is simply an opinion that will be over looked.

[Daniel]

I'm just wondering what we will do when the next major update comes out and the new sword has 160 damage 200 attack and 150 acc.

[Lordkrys]

I'm glad they are looking into different options for R/M/E weapons because that first plan was awful. My biggest concern is about the people who only have lv 85 versions of these weapons. (Like myself) Once almost everyone I knew left the game it became far more difficult to make any progress. Spending all your time trying to get p.u.g.s or paying people to merc pretty much sucks. I feel like the game is slipping further and further away from players who don't have large Link Shells anymore. And finding new groups of people to team up with is harder than making the darn weapons.

[Zohnax]

Greetings everyone,

Thanks for all of your patience while the development team discussed all the feedback in this thread. Below is a very lengthy post from Producer Akihiko Matsui as a follow-up to the plans for relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons.

---
Matsui here.

Thank you all so much for the feedback on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes weapons. It has helped out tremendously.

After reading over all of your feedback, instead of continuing the growth of these weapons by unlocking the weapon skills that are tied to each of the weapons, I feel it would be better to perform a revamp on RME weapons. (Regarding Walk of Echoes weapons, I will talk about this below, but they will be involved with unlocking the specialized weapon skills.)

I've been reworking a lot, and writing it all up, but it seems the post turned out rather lengthy, so once you have been able to read through it all and digest it we'd love to hear your feedback.

Content Level
We've received a lot of questions about the stats on Adoulin equipment, and I'd like to once again explain about growth and content levels in Seekers of Adoulin as this is a critical aspect in order to receive feedback on the revamps for RME weapons.

The content in Adoulin has been designed with a repeating play-cycle where you challenge content that you are able to at that moment in time, gather equipment, become stronger, and then take on higher tier content which will allow you to gather even stronger equipment.

It's through the procurement of equipment that will allow players to grow and level up.

We've established content levels for Adoulin content as a means to objectively display difficulty benchmarks. The below is a concrete illustration of these content levels.

Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).

The strength of the monsters that will be introduced are matched to that of the content level, but since there is somewhat of a solidified hierarchy between content, it's been setup so that the strength can be felt with even one level difference in content level. Oppositely, the parameters on Adoulin equipment have been calculated and set in order to deal with these monsters.

Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.

Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.

In the next version update we will be adding content focusing on filling in the gaps as well as supplementing with content variation.

In the above chart, please look at the “Next version update (currently adjusting)” column. For content levels 6-9 (Skirmish/Wildskeeper Reives), we will be adding equipment appropriate for these content levels that can be exchanged for Bayld along with new Colonization and Lair Reives. Additionally, we will be filling in content for levels 13 and 17.

For those players who are already able to take on Skirmish, Wildskeeper Reives, and Delve at this point in time, it will not be absolutely necessary to challenge this content, but we will be making the above adjustments in case you want to increase your success rate, or are feeling that the current situation is still a bit tough.

Also, as a plan to resolve the issue where Skirmish is not really connecting the content as was planned, we will be undergoing maintenance at the end of this week and making it so statue segments can be obtained from Colonization and Lair Reives at a set rate. (These adjustments are separate from the rules associated with obtaining these items via Coalition Assignments, HELM, and Soul Pyres.)

By performing these adjustments we envision the below flow:

Challenge Colonization and Lair Reives
Obtain statue segments by participating in these reives
Challenge Skirmish with the parts you have obtained



Weapon Revamps
Sorry, I got off track for a bit, but now I'd like to return to the topic at hand.

To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.

In regards to the kind of stats that will be added when we revamp these weapons, fundamentally the afterglow and aftermath effects as well as the other special stats will carry over and we'll be setting damage values, attack, and accuracy stats to coincide with the content level.

While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.
This last statement worries me. R/M/E weapons have already gone through lengthy trials in order to get where they are now. So as long as we're not talking anything crazy like 1million plasm to upgrade R/M/E, this is good. To further build upon, a majority of R/M/E owners to not want the game to be completely tailored to them entirely, but rather, the fact is they have put in the most effort and time into making Lv99 R/M/E weapons, so for something to come off the auction house or a single drop to be better, and some standards comparable, is still a little insulting.

There is also a lot of concern of how quickly newly implemented gear is getting outdated with the past two updates. Please understand that for a long time, FFXI's standard has not been a treadmill gear-grind, but select pieces of gear have been relevant for long periods of time.


However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.
Your feelings are incorrect. They are the ultimate weapons because they take a lot of time and effort in order to complete, therefore, should be the best weapons in the game. However, a lot of players believe these weapons from Delve should still be a decent alternative, but still be a level below R/M/E.



I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

With that said, there may be players who are worried if these weapons will eventually become unusable, but to give an example we had the lead make some calculations for the stats needed to combat the Delve boss monsters, and the below is what the RME swords would look like:

Excalibur


↓



Burtgang


↓



Almace


↓


In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.
See, this was all R/M/E owners asked for. We put in effort in the new content to further keep our weapons the best because of the effort required, and in turn, it still draws people back to older content in the event they want to build one of these ultimate weapons. Simply focusing the entire game around SoA is a bad idea, especially when you can have people doing all old content as well with simple implementations such as this.

As far as WoE weapons are concerned, I like that idea as well. Considering the greater ease though, perhaps the weapon skill power output could be lowered slightly so that Empyrean weapons are made obsolete as well.



In conclusion…
Apologies that this post is so long, but based on all of the above we would love to hear your feedback on the revamps to level 99 RME weapons and unlocking weapon skills with Walk of Echoes weapons.

I will be sure to read over each and every comment you all post.

My thoughts and ideas have completely turned around the plans that were originally drawn up, and I had to sit and really discuss the idea with the rest of the development team, including the possibilities of making this happen.
As I've said before, I do not mean to be offensive, but I sincerely implore you to analyze your choices or possibilities before you drop something like this on the playerbase. You guys should know that people .dat mine every update where there are new files added and should be more aware of how valuable players efforts really are. It will keep the game going a lot longer if you play it smart. Which if it continues, I will continue to support and I'm sure a lot of other players will too.

[Insaniac]

Of course they wont have the aftermath but it will still be absolutely broken for some combinations.

I meant that if you have any other WSs aftermath active and you use a WoE weaponskill it would remove it. For instance you use King's Justice to put up AM3 and then use Ukko's Fury your KJ aftermath instantly wears off. Making OA3 + Ukko's spam impossible.

[ProjectA2O]

So I was typing up a huge post on my thoughts/feelings on the old thread when I saw this follow up. :mad: (all that typing)

After reading Matsuis revised plan for REM I feel much better about this whole thing, but I still have some concerns with a few thing that were said. Well I like the idea of having "options" this will only work if the gear is equal to or better than future additions.

I think most people that play FFXI wont mind new ultimate weapons/gear being added as long as the months/years they put into creating other equipment doesnt feel like a complete waste.

We need more clarification(I do at least) on whether you meant REM weapons will be kept as viable contenders to any new ultimate weapons added or if you mean for them to become the "good enough" options.

[Pretzpretz]

While he stated that this R/E/M buff is a significant departure from his initial plan, it's really just an extension of his original plan, with a delay meant to appease R/E/M holders and quell the recent outrage.

I'm very happy R/E/M are getting a buff, but it's clear to see that this is a one time only deal. He feels that R/E/M shouldn't remain top tier and this method just makes it a slower decline rather than an outright abandonment.

So what about next time an update happens which introduces a higher tier of dropped weapons? Well, our argument of R/E/M being top tier no longer holds the weight that it did this time, and we won't have the force needed to get another R/E/M buff.

Personally, I would rather have lengthy trials in order to upgrade R/E/M in smaller increments. At least that way we could have some confidence that they won't be abandoned again in the near future.

It's not a nice feeling to be manipulated Matsui. I'm just as happy as everyone else is today, but it doesn't mean I won't be as devastated the next time you try to leave R/E/M behind.

[Luscia]

It's nice to see that you all are thinking of ways to make REM king again, which they should be. However I do have concerns; I myself only have a lvl 95 Gungnir, mainly because my real life doesn't have the time to dedicate to a hardcore endgame shell to fight ADL and I don't have the time to farm 50m+ gil to buy them. My source of income was VW, but on Siren those shouts are few and far between. I know others have farmed Dyna for gil, but sales of currency have slowed way down and prices have also dipped. Alex too has slowed way down and priced dropped; and where as people might suggest crafting to making money, the thing I could make I would take a hit on instead of profit if I have to buy the meat involved. For me at this time, I see no way for me to obtain my lvl 99 relic for my main and favorite job. Please do us a favor and consider an overall scaling of the REM weapons. I would hate to have to put my beloved polearm on my mannequin.

[Calatilla]

Curious question, if SE go along with these plans, would increasing Caladbolg's damage and adding Accuracy/Attack+20 bring it any closer to the top tier weapons for DRK?

[Hawklaser]

This is some good news. Though when the next large vertical content level increase comes, might be a good idea to have the upgrades to RME and whatever else is deemed "upgradeable" to have the new form in the dats, even if not entirely sure how to have the upgrade happen yet.

The big difference between RME and other weapons is the amount of investment that goes into getting one, which is why people want them to continue being top of the line weapons. Just because they are top of the line, does not mean they are going to always be the very best, but they do help set the bar for the best weapons. If you wanted, you could divide most gear in FFXI into categories based on investment taken to get them. For example, Extreme investment(RME weapons), High investment(Rare mat crafted, NM at end of NM chain drop, or HNM), Moderate investment(uncommon mat crafted, or NM drop) and low investment(common crafted, NPC buyable, or random mob drop). Any weapon that ends up in the extreme investment category, should be and stay at top of the line performance, high investment ones can and should be competitive, and sometimes better than the extreme investment ones when around the same content level. Now seeing as some of the plasm weapons from Delve have that new upgrade system for them, they could easily end up a part of the extreme investment category of weapons depending on how extensive that system is and how far it allows them to upgrade.

[AldielQuetz]

I think these are wonderful concepts. I believe that all forms of the final REMs, 99s should all receive the same adjustment across the board to maintain the balance between the weapons. An example, all great axes should receive DMG+100 Accuracy+40 and attack+40 to their stats as well as making all 3 weapon's aftermaths stronger like Bravura keep the Damage reduction and add a regen+20 effect, on Conqueror add a critical hit rate buff and on Ukon add a blink effect. These are only suggestions but I think that the most important part is that every weapon of a specific type receive the same increase in base damage and the same increase in stats and that in the aftermath and other additional effects, you can really get creative :)

Thank you Producer M

[Zeldar]

Another option for keeping these weapons up to date was touched on a few posts up: after the initial overhaul, make them augmentable like the new gear is. This would also make not every weapon the same....hey nice stats on your Mandau, but I chose a different way. Just a thought.

[AldielQuetz]

And as for my favorite treasure and it's Empyrean and Mythic counterparts, Excalibur, these are my suggestions for making sword relevant. For Almace, add a refresh effect +15 to the aftermath with varying duration based on TP, as well as increasing all 1 handed Empyrean weapons' aftermath to occasionally deals triple damage. As for Burtang add a stoneskin effect to the aftermath proportionate to the amount of TP, 500 damage absorbed at 100, 750 at 200 and 1000 at 300TP. And as for Excalibur, and for all relic weapons, increase the hidden effect that occasionally deals 2x, 2.5x, 3x by 10% across the board, then specifically for Excalibur increase the regen effect to +50HP a tic(seeing as how the meebles Great Axe can have +30) and also make the additional damage proportionate to HP generate enmity like it always was meant to be! :)

These are my suggestions for sword, I hope you enjoy them. I have treasured my Excalibur since the day it was finally forged May 29th, 2007, after years of work and has been a joy and a prized possess through every trial all the way to 99.

Thank you Producer M for restoring the wonder and enjoyment to this game for me

Aldiel

[Cybermario]

Just hope people dont end ranting because the augments are not what they expected, be happy they will be boosted.

[Akutenshi]

I think the WoE is a nice change for weaponskills. Learn them and then use some of the new weapons from the expansion that you can augment. At some point R/E/M weapons are not going to be the top weapons. What they should do is lower the cost and items to fully upgrade them now through magian trials. Least that way get people prepared for eventually when they actually release more weapons that will trump them in damage. Not saying this is going to happen soon, but they should get the ball rolling or at least let us know it could be a possibility.

I mostly feel for the people that got Relic weapons before all the changes to dynamis. I feel those people have a right to be very upset with all the new weapons. Relic weapons are a lot easier to make now a days. Also with the people that 99'd their weapons that put time into it. Eventually they have to not be at the top. What's the point of releasing new content just for armor and a new fight mechanic? Then just grind old content to get the best weapon to get new expansion equipment. I feel they should buff R/E/M weapons once, or even twice, then have newer weapons be at the top eventually.

Hopefully in the future they would do the same with relic weapons as their plans with WoE weapons with unlocking the weapon skills once and or if they ever become obsolete. Mostly good changes he proposed, hopefully it doesn't take another four to five months for them to be implemented.

[Peacekeeper]

I feel this model is MUCH more acceptable than previous models. I can understand, while I don't agree with, the desire to not have R/E/M weapons be at the very top, to that end, it is nice to see that there are possible steps being taken to see these weapons still around the top.

Just for the purpose of clarification:

Coin weapons are being addressed along with R/E/M weapons, something I do not feel is necessary, coin weapons were nothing more than the adulterated child version of Emps. However if they are going to allow the unlocking of their specific weapon skills, will the authentic Emp weapons do the same?

As an example, that may or may not have been considered by the dev team, owning the 99 coin weapon would allow you to use Chant du Cygne with the new Delve sword. If Almace does not unlock the weapon skill, the lower damage presented in the model for Almace would potentially prompt Emp owners to make the coin weapon simply for the sake of unlocking the weapon skill on the Delve weapon, leading to further issues with storage.

There are, obviously, other variables to take into consideration (Aftermath, DEX and ATT/ACC present on the Almace post change). If all variables lead to Almace being "on par" with the Delve weapon, Emp users will be happy with what they have in the presented model.

If the variables lead to still vastly superior Delve weapons, there will be a great influx of Walk of Echoes, simply for the sake of making 99 coin weapons, causing economic changes that may not have been expected.

I feel it is a good idea to unlock Emp weapon skills, but I don't think it is necessary to focus on coin weapons, I could be mistaken, but I don't think there are many coin weapon wielders to begin with.

If Almace did unlock CDC on any sword, those with 99 Emps would not need to make another weapon, and be short storage space, those without may 99 their Emps, or they may still make coin weapons; this of course being based off of the respective costs for each task.

[Zumi]

One suggestion I would make is if you have any empyrean weapon with the empyrean WS you should be able to unlock the WS for all weapons. Like if I got a 90 empyrean it has the WS, let us use the WS on other weapons that are better then the empyrean while upgrading it to 99 so eventually can use it again.

Otherwise you make people with empyreans that aren't 99 yet go back and farm WoE weapons when they already got a weapon with the WS unlocked.

Simple fix is just make a npc trade him any empyrean that has the WS on it 85-99 and he will unlock the WS for all weapons.

[MarkovChain]

I suggest unlocking the WS only to those that managed a level 99 version. Going back to WoE seems like a waste for all those that chose the "good weapons paths". Also suggesting a way to fusion delve bosses weapons and afterglow weapons just to make oatixur glow !

[Fusionx]

Hoping that the bayld reward will increase by doing the new colonization/lair reive stuff that's coming out. It takes forever to get bayld saved up for wildskeeper reives. Higher level content should yield higher rewards right?

Love the idea of being able to unlock weaponskills with WoE weapons. Hate the idea of going back to WoE. Hoping you won't need to complete a 99 weapon to do this.

[Ilpalazzo]

Since this topic caught my attention thought I'd actually post for once this is going to be somewhat lengthy so bear with me. I believe we are still in the dark about what is going into these adjustments so I'm not taking off my panse yet. Though I am liking what I am seeing and also liking being able to unlock the Empyrian WS.

I do have a few questions that should be answered sooner than later in whatever is going to happen within these adjustments. To start off with will we be getting an adjustment to the lotto pop NM timers for the WoE and Empyrian weapon ToM trials. I'm sorry but waiting 10+ hours for lumbering lambert and others is not fun or entertaining in any way or form and makes these particular trials drag on way longer than necessary. IMO you should reduce the timers to a forced 30 minutes to 1 hour pop time or less; reduce the number of kills necessary or both to speed things up. This should also be released when you do the changes for acquiring the empyrian WS for standard use with other weapons.

Now with that out of the way what are your future plans for R/M/E because right now if you do not already have one it's just going to get worse and worse to acquire one if you do not have one currently. Especially as we go further down the road with even more steps elongating the process.

I'll do this part in order to some extent with relics up first. Okay IMO the first initially currency upgrades should be drastically reduced while keeping the 10,000 currency at the last phase. Along with that a reduction the kill X amount of enemies with WS during the ToM part. A reduction in umbral marrows for afterglow would also greatly help. This in turn should speed thing up for acquiring them quite a bit.

Mythic are more of a burlier beast to handle (since their still pretty ridiculous to get IMO). What I believe needs to be done is a significant reduction in alexandrite needed say lower it to something around 3k. As well as reducing the amount of ichor, and tokens needed significantly to get them. Heck if your feeling really ambitious take out tags or make the build up constantly like the time stones for abyssea. Also will probably have to change ZNM to some extent as far as the points you build through use of the camera part. And reducing the amount of mulcibars scoria for afterglow would also be welcome.

And finally Empyrian while I addressed the timed NM ToM trials earlier a reduction in heavy metal plates to say 200-300, and a reduction to the second rift dross etc. trials for afterglow. A reduction in the amount of items needed for the Abyssea NM trials would be welcome but not necessary as well.

Also speaking on afterglow and none afterglow 99 weapons you never addressed whether or not that say if we wanted afterglow and upgraded to the improved more powerful 99 version would we still be able to get afterglow somehow. Say something akin to how relic +2 works in that we just need a certain amount of different items need to upgrade because that part is just confusing the heck out of me and what your going to do with it since we'd have to complete the afterglow trial to move onto the next step of upgrading.

I believe moving forward with what your doing with your changes to the game all these reductions would keep the casual's still going to older events since they will feel they will have more of a shot at the actual weapons while the hardcore will be able to get the weapons done faster for more jobs that they wish to use. After all shouldn't the acquirement of these weapons be for the fun of using them rather than the special snowflake status that some people wish to keep.

With closing it would also be neat if we could eventually down the line get the relic and mythic weapon skills with the improved weapon skill damage from the 99 version for general weapon use.

[Kimjongil]

What will happen with Hvergelmir Empy staff and empy club? Some people like me have 99. And I don't feel I should have to make a Walk of Echo weapon. As most people will unlock WoE for soothslayers staff. And that will be much more powerful than my staff. And the Weapon skill is just as strong.

By the way I only had my staff for ten days.

99 Empys should be able to unlock the weapon skill. Or in this case 40% 60% 80% should be stronger. 60% 80% 100%

[Demon6324236]

What will happen with Hvergelmir Empy staff and empy club? Some people like me have 99. And I don't feel I should have to make a Walk of Echo weapon. As most people will unlock WoE for soothslayers staff. And that will be much more powerful than my staff. And the Weapon skill is just as strong.

By the way I only had my staff for ten days.

99 Empys should be able to unlock the weapon skill. Or in this case 40% 60% 80% should be stronger. 60% 80% 100%Emps themselves will be getting a boost as well, so the staff is probably no different.

[Zohno]

I like the new direction proposed by Mr Matsui, but I hope that this won't be just a one-time cookie to calm to current outrage.

We got showed only a sword as example, so I don't know how the other weapons will be upgraded or if the hidden effects/aftermaths will get a boost, but I think that the devs should find the right ratio between dps/effort(time/money/dedication) for them.


I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

About the above quote, I think that it should be the opposite. If you don't wanna spend a big amount of time and money to get a REM (quests, trials, item gathering, w/e new upgrade system… oh, the horror!) then you have the choice to pick good/easier to get alternatives. Otherwise, this update will be good only for the current owners, giving no incentive in starting these paths for newer players or current ones who don't own a REM. This will also keep alive those events that are required to get those weapons without wasting all the work that has been made to revamp them (dynamis, salvage, assault, nyzul).

My 2 gil.

[Gabe]

This sounds like a promising idea, however as many have already posted, I feel that COIN WEAPONS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO UNLOCK EMPYREAN WEAPONSKILLS.

It seems as Empyreans are already being considered a 3rd category after Mythics and Relics. The cost and effort to 99 an Empyrean is now more than that to make a 99 Relic, so this hierarchy seems kind of pointless to begin with yet it is still acceptable. Unlocking Empyrean weaponskills would make Empyrean weapons absolutely useless, as using that weaponskill with other weapons would be a much better result.

I believe people who put much effort and gil into 99ing their Verethragna or Masamune or even Almace (like me) wuold be very unhappy to have done all that just to store their weapon and use the weaponskill with Spharai or Excalibur. What was so nice before was the choice and the different situation where every weapon shined. This would undoubtedly be lost as the only reason to ever make an empyrean, would not be it's use, but the possibility to unlock the weaponskill, absurdly MAKING A 99 COIN VERSION PREFERABLE OVER A 99 EMPYREAN, thus rendering all of the hard work and gil put into these utterly and completely useless.

It is not by chance that Mythic weapons have unlockable weaponskills and are the weapons with the most powerfull stats at the same time, they would be useless if they were not stronger weapons. Making Empyreans the "weaker" tier of relics and unlocking their WS would be a mortal blow.

Thank you for your time, I hope I am understood :)

Galiber, Ragnarok server.

[Tanama]

The only reason the DMG on that updated Almace is lower than Excalibur and Burtgang is because it's delay is lower than the other two.

Personally, I fully support the idea using the coin weapons to unlock the empyrian weapon skills.

[Gabe]

The only reason the DMG on that updated Almace is lower than Excalibur and Burtgang is because it's delay is lower than the other two.

Personally, I fully support the idea using the coin weapons to unlock the empyrian weapon skills.

Obviously everyone that does not own a 99 Empy would prefer the possibility of unlocking the WS through coin weapons.
But that would completely eliminate any use for 99 Empyreans and game wise that would be wrong. Of course everyone would prefer something when it's more convenient for them, I'd also be glad to make a fake Ukonvasara and spam Ukko's Fury or Victory Smite with a delve weapon or better yet a mythic! Would that be right? No, it wouldn't, just as much as outclassing all RMEs was with this last update.

[Teraniku]

Obviously everyone that does not own a 99 Empy would prefer the possibility of unlocking the WS through coin weapons.
But that would completely eliminate any use for 99 Empyreans and game wise that would be wrong. Of course everyone would prefer something when it's more convenient for them, I'd also be glad to make a fake Ukonvasara and spam Ukko's Fury or Victory Smite with a delve weapon or better yet a mythic! Would that be right? No, it wouldn't, just as much as outclassing all RMEs was with this last update.

You mean just like Mythic users and their weaponskills? Mythic weaponskills are easier to unlock, is it fair that people who spent as much time / money as you did to make their weapon for only one job has their special weaponskill given to the masses who take the time to unlock it?

[FrankReynolds]

I would like to know if they plan on releasing newer more powerful weapons than the delve / RME weapons proposed in the next year or so. If they do, then this changes nothing really and delve weapons will still be the better option unless they upgrade RME again too.

So Matsui san, Do you plan to make these weapons (RME / Delve) the new standard for top of the line weapons? Or will you be adding even more powerful weapons in the near future?

Also, Just an Idea, but I think that the WOE weapons should unlock the weapon skills but not give the aftermath while the 99 RME should unlock both the weapon skill and the aftermath.

[Masamune11]

Can we get clarification on what level the WoE weapons need to be to unlock the weaponskill? Technically the level 85 versions of the WoW weapons have the weaponskill.

[pretre]

I really like this idea so long as R/E/M weps are equal to top weapons from delve otherwise can still buy a greataxe and do woe greataxe an it will still out do R/E/M

[Severence]

Now. I approve of your macaroni SE. You took my plan. Thumbs up.

[fernando]

I have 2 99 WoE weapons,and one close,therefor i Approve this message..

[fernando]

My Almace thanks you also!!

[Kihrre]

Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).

So will you, in the future, add a way in the game to differentiate between lv.99 equipment which are of different content levels, such as a visual cue like the borders for HQ items or even display the content level in the description?

[Calysto]

empyreans are the weakest R/E/M ?

come on, relics only have one trial that is 75+ content, the rest can be soloed in a few months.
mythics are still hard due to mass <insert event> points needed and 3/6 ppl requierement for theses. but all in all, this is only lv.75 content to lv.99 weapon.
for empyreans, beside the first annoying abyssea trials that are already 75+(sure in abyssea, but you can't solo most of theses unlike relics), the 1500 HMP are impossible to get yourself, even more now that theses new adoulin weapons/armors defeated every VW content. then there are the 60 riftcinder/dross that met the same fate.
heck, if you want to be efficient to make an empyrean, you go farm in dynamis and sell the coins to buy hmp/rift.

with some of theses empyreans already lacking (yes i made a rhongomiant, probably one of the most annoying trial path with the one of the worst result), having a subpar weapon to someone who just droped on a delve boss kinda frustrate me.

[Wyrmnus]

I've got my source of income back! Huzzah!

[Karbuncle]

I'm okay with this. Its making it to where RME are useable, and the other weapons still have stronger features. Its a nice middle ground. I can use mercy without it being attached to a weapon thats essentially a fun toy... I mean, I've lightened up to RME being dead and i retired my THF, with this news, I might be able to play the job again.

Just thanks SE, I understand you want to kill off/phase out RME so they're not "End all be all", But I'm happy you realized you'd be murdering 2 major sources of income for players (Currency/Alex), and also alienating a lot of 5-11 year old players who did not warm up to the idea as well as you might have hoped.

All in all, this is a positive for me, and to be able to unlock Emp WS with the 99 version just opened up the Coin/etc market a bit too, cause I know i'd make a Dagger, Staff, and so forth without fail.

[Kimjongil]

Please allow 99 Empy's to unlock weapon skills like "coin" weapons.

[pretre]

this is a good idea but pls pls pls don't just make it 99 only my armagedon 90 took allot of work too

[Tarl]

What about the other Magian trial weapons? Just toss them? I don't want to remake these again if it will even be possible everytime there is an update. Bst -pdt axes, OAT weapons, evasion daggers and katanas, STR, DEX, weapons, tp bonus G katanas, are just a few. These are special purpose weapons. With R/M/E boost update, why not boost these also?

I'm thinking that whatever percentage boost you give R/M/E weapons, give Magian weapons a boost to put them in the same standing with R/M/Es as they are now. My thoughts to upgrade them would be a simple quest, but something different than we have been doing with them, I'm tired of only weather mobs, 500 mobs, pet killing blow, etc... Why not for every weapon you wish to upgrade do something like a Maat fight, Maat or new npc has same job and matching weapon, just trade x amount of Bayld or trade some item to npc and fight to have weapon upgraded? My thoughts on it anyway, I think it would be fun and challenging. Please upgrade these also!

[Karbuncle]

I think I understand now why they're hesitant to give us 5 Merit WS instead of 3... They give us an inch and people ask for a mile.

[pretre]

if only 99 empy weps getting a boost they may aswell erase abyssea cos it will kill it. why not give all stages of r/e/m weps a boost, I mean why make such a big part of the game pointless

[Smush]

In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.


In conclusion…
Apologies that this post is so long, but based on all of the above we would love to hear your feedback on the revamps to level 99 RME weapons and unlocking weapon skills with Walk of Echoes weapons.

I will be sure to read over each and every comment you all post.

My thoughts and ideas have completely turned around the plans that were originally drawn up, and I had to sit and really discuss the idea with the rest of the development team, including the possibilities of making this happen.

I apologize that this response was late and that I made you all wait.

Thank you all very much.
---

If you going to let the emp weapon skill be used by other weapons then i think its only fair that you add ws dmg to it when you do it with the emp weapon

Tachi: Katian

When you have a 99 you get 40% dmg you can do it with 90 anamo the dyna ver. and the GK that drops off the worm in abyssea after 13 ws, but the 99 anamo has the stronger version

Tachi: Rana

Can be done with any weapon but when you have the Koga 99 it does 30% more ws dmg so its stronger with that weapon

Tachi: fudo

It can only be done with masa and coin weapon right now

Only thing thats right now is if you do it with the coin weapon you dont get aftermath and you dont have 20 of the mod for it.

But if you unlock it for all weapons if it was used with a much higher dmg base weapon like the delve weapon if you guys are planning to keep masa lower like in your sword example with alamace and all you need is a coin weapon to unlock it, i think its not fair to the 99 masa so please take this in to consideration.

[Oakrest]

[Camate] Matsui here...

It's nice to hear a relatively quick update on this previously discouraging matter, thank you. I think I'll feel more comfortable visiting Vana'diel now. I hope you haven’t had any ulcers!

Some strong recommendations for you and your team summarized from the community. Please find this with good intentions:

Make sure R/M/E stay on top of all other weapons (and to be specific I mean base damage foremost). This is priority one. These items are a key legacy and the champions of FFXI, and should be until Vana'diel dies. This has been justified throughout the related R/M/E threads (and not just on this forum either). To sum a few popular rationales: most importantly they require the longest amount of time by far among any reward (cost). They also were always indicated to the players (by the FFXI team) be top tier, even after the game passed 75. Some players like the cool weapon model/art or the lore; others are after the unique effects these weapons offer. Many players posted ‘FFXI is not (insert other MMO title here)’, and that’s a good thing. There are too many reasons to list, but most R/M/E holders agree the first is I mentioned is enough alone.

Keep plans in place for future expansions to make priority one, stay priority one.

Make sure Empyrean, Coin [WoE], and Relic all gain the weapon skill unlock (in other words, not just the coin weapons).

Mythic owners (having already unlocked a weaponskill) should be considered to get an added perk, for example a merit-able option to enhance the Mythic WS (only if you obtained the weapon).

Do not introduce excessive additional ToM (such as killing 10,000 enemies). Any trial/quest should be reasonable and or none at all, there’s a lot of work put into R/M/E by the time they hit 95/99.

Consider giving owners of the 95 version of R/M/E a partial or complete damage increment, but not the added ATK/ACC (or in the case of the other jobs, +MACC,+MATK, etc) until 99.

Make sure the scale of weapons remains consistent among R/M/E. For example, you’re showing Burtgang with more damage than Excalibur (and I realize you were only showing those numbers as an example) but at 75 Excalibur was ahead, and then became even with Burtgang at 99. It would make most sense to at least keep them even for base damage (and yes I know Burtgang has more delay).

Know that these weapons are woven into the fabric of FFXI, and give you (Square Enix) a head start for new content: Dynamis, Abyssea, and ToAU are needed for these weapons, and open access to a lot of content opportunity for both these areas (such as making Sea II or Sky II) and for the weapons (special new upgrades or augments for R/M/E after SoA). This is more of a business reminder to help keep us players around longer: you have a ton of existing content that could be re-purposed into harder stuff.

Know that we love this game and that’s why we give this feedback :)


PS -I have many non-R/M/E fully upgraded ToM weapons completed (everything from 2-4 attack Greatsword to –PDT% sword). These took a lot of work, and it’d be sad to see them get replaced, but I don’t know if I’d trade one of my relics for 20 ToM weapons. Some gear get’s replaced, we're OK with that, just not R/M/E. I'm not saying trash standard ToM items either - because those are a great design option for casual players - just that there needs to be some priority.


--------- edit May 15,2013

Please also understand, that AH weapons are not a bad thing (a nice option for new players catching up with end content). They just should only ever be a close 2nd to R/M/E.

[bobthetaru]

No. Epic Fail. I loved the new expansion, because it looked as though a clean sweep were coming, making everything pre-abyssea obsolete, including relics, mythics, and empyereans. Don't revamp them, that's old stuff. Tell all the people who cried and moaned and QQ'd over it to suck it up, they're done. It's a level 99 world. I liked the synergy augs and relic+2 armor and such at first, but then I realized that if you make everything upgradable to lvl 99 standards, there will be WAY TOO MUCH content, it's already way overwhelming. The majority of players aren't the same demographic they were 10 years ago, we don't have the time the kids have (kids by the way mostly don't play ffxi, its not in HD) to play all day, we have families and jobs. If you're going to do ANYTHING regarding relic,mythic,empyrean, give the existing relics to the jobs from toau, wotg, and soa, that don't get one, add new mythics for the new jobs that don't have one, and give runefencer and geomancer existing empyrean weapons.

[bobthetaru]

This is the only MMO on the market where we still use gear from 8 years ago. The upgrades to the Zilart and Dynamis gear are cool, for nostalgia's sake, as it's the original endgame content from 10 years ago, but all the rest is just too much. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh. Sure some people will be pissed off that the weapons they spent years making aren't the best anymore, but who cares, they're still good for their special and hidden effects, its not all about base damage. And so what if the new weapons are better? They bloody should be! Cmon guys, out with the old and in with the new.

[Kimjongil]

This is the only MMO on the market where we still use gear from 8 years ago. The upgrades to the Zilart and Dynamis gear are cool, for nostalgia's sake, as it's the original endgame content from 10 years ago, but all the rest is just too much. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh. Sure some people will be pissed off that the weapons they spent years making aren't the best anymore, but who cares, they're still good for their special and hidden effects, its not all about base damage. And so what if the new weapons are better? They bloody should be! Cmon guys, out with the old and in with the new.

You and most people have a misconception. Empy weapons are only as old as VW. So two years old at max. And they will make Aby and VW obsyete with unlocking on WoE and not a 99 Empy.

[Theytak]

This is the only MMO on the market where we still use gear from 8 years ago. The upgrades to the Zilart and Dynamis gear are cool, for nostalgia's sake, as it's the original endgame content from 10 years ago, but all the rest is just too much. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh. Sure some people will be pissed off that the weapons they spent years making aren't the best anymore, but who cares, they're still good for their special and hidden effects, its not all about base damage. And so what if the new weapons are better? They bloody should be! Cmon guys, out with the old and in with the new.

That's part of the appeal for a lot of people. Shit in FFXI is not nearly as easy to get as it is in other MMOs, and never has been, and the devs have always understood that making players work their asses off for some small sidegrade and then the next time an update comes out, making it worthless, is not something that appeals to everyone. On top of that, FFXI's inventory system cannot possible support that kind of gameplay. The hell are we supposed to do with all of this old gear that we've spent years building up and making use of? Throw away our hard work and memories like their some cheap candy wrapper? Yea, no thanks. FFXI's gradual replacement of gear has always been a drawing point, and that they seem so set on just throwing that out the window really bothers a lot of us.

[Rekin]

This is the only MMO on the market where we still use gear from 8 years ago. The upgrades to the Zilart and Dynamis gear are cool, for nostalgia's sake, as it's the original endgame content from 10 years ago, but all the rest is just too much. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh. Sure some people will be pissed off that the weapons they spent years making aren't the best anymore, but who cares, they're still good for their special and hidden effects, its not all about base damage. And so what if the new weapons are better? They bloody should be! Cmon guys, out with the old and in with the new.

Ah yes, and how many of those many many many mmos who followed such a pattern have died? The only one that manages to live is WoW and thats because it has the means to support that sort of system. FFXI is no where near that level and with SE constantly redlining I doubt they have the funds to do such a thing without constantly releasing boring content with tons of limitations (hi to you Skirmish). Also such a change may draw in a few new players but ultimately won't change it's current position on the market. Ever.

[detlef]

if only 99 empy weps getting a boost they may aswell erase abyssea cos it will kill it. why not give all stages of r/e/m weps a boost, I mean why make such a big part of the game pointlessThe road to a 99 still goes through Abyssea. Also Abyssea is still the go-to place for XP.

[Calysto]

i think it's time SE loot again at the empyreans 90+ trials.
with Voidwatch dead, it is now impossible to get theses trials done.
so either :
-make the trials items rain there(instead of logs/ores) so if you even get a party, you'll at least progress instead of having 1% chance to have a single item
-make it drop somewhere else (and to keep it even with empy/relics, stuff that can mostly be soloed)
-and/or reduce the trials quantity items.

[Kajikuro]

I havent read many other the other posts so forgive me if this repeats what has already been stated, but anyway.

The fact that weapons will have to be 99 is kinda upsetting, an upsetting number of people i know saying something to the effect of "If i have to get my RME to 99 for it to be considered for deserving to be on par with this new weapons i am quitting. The amount of effort put into then doesnt deserve a spit in the face like this" Its hard enough getting these weapons so them being so substantially outclassed by these new weapons unless they are 99 is on pace to offend many people.

However my main concern is the idea of making WoE weapons give full access to the Empyrean line of weapon skills to be unlocked for use by any weapon, why would anyone make an actual Empyrean weapon if they can simply unlock the WS via WoE weapon and then get one of the new content weapons and not have to get their empyrean through getting to 99 to be on the same level of damage. So if the unlock able versions are not watered down to a large degree many Empyrean owners will feel cheated, mythic weapons are still awesome because they are (or were) on par with the strongest weapons in the game and gave an increase to the mythic weapon skills. So even if you do give everyone fulltime access to empyrean weapon skills give them like 30 or maybe even 40% stat mods instead of 60% so empy owners will feel like atleast it was worth something



The idea of Challenge, Effort, Reward in the minds of people is not so that their reward will be belittled, the reason RME were considered the "Ultimate weapons" is because we worked hard for them and expected them to be the best on at least one of the best regardless of 85, 90, 95 or 99 we put in the effort when we thought the reward was worth the challenge, but if you give the reward to everyone and they can use stronger weapons with the same WS for less effort then what was our effort for then?

So in short my requests are this:
1:Consider making level 90 and on Weapons closer to on par with the new equipment and content

2:Please don't give full time access of Empyrean weapon skills via WoE weapons regardless of the difficulty planned for doing so as it will Belittle empy owners, unless the unlocked WSs are weakened without having the corresponding Empyrean/WoE weapon equipped

[Mirage]

This is kind of a good idea if HMP becomes relatively common drops in Adoulin.

[Monchat]

these changes sound great but I forsee mythic weapons + empyrean weapon skill combo being broken in many cases.

[xiozen]

The fact that weapons will have to be 99 is kinda upsetting, an upsetting number of people i know saying something to the effect of "If i have to get my RME to 99 for it to be considered for deserving to be on par with this new weapons i am quitting. The amount of effort put into then doesnt deserve a spit in the face like this" Its hard enough getting these weapons so them being so substantially outclassed by these new weapons unless they are 99 is on pace to offend many people.

Alot of players have an 85, 90 and 95 R/M/E weapon... I'd imagine "most" that have an R/M/E weapon under 99 would express similar sentiments. Personally I only one lvl 99 R/M/E. My thoughts about this would be to suggest working on getting the R/M/E to lvl 99 or if that proves too challenging, getting one of the Delve/Skirmish weapons. Not trying to say the work you put into getting your 85, 90 or 95 R/M/E should be downplayed--no... I am simply making the observation that the weapon isn't "finished" and by "finished" I am referring to its final stage. (I am excluding Afterglow for obvious reasons).



The idea of Challenge, Effort, Reward in the minds of people is not so that their reward will be belittled, the reason RME were considered the "Ultimate weapons" is because we worked hard for them and expected them to be the best on at least one of the best regardless of 85, 90, 95 or 99 we put in the effort when we thought the reward was worth the challenge, but if you give the reward to everyone and they can use stronger weapons with the same WS for less effort then what was our effort for then?

Well the producer did say he wanted to change the viewpoint of the R/M/E's being the best weapons by introducing weapons that can also be considered comparable. But I think the issue here is not the comparability of the R/M/E weapons to the Delve/Skirmish weapons, based on your argument---it seems that you'd rather some adjustment be proposed based on R/M/E weapons that are below lvl 99 (in effect, weapons that are not "finished"). Try this: Finish the weapon to 99... then come back to the table and argue about "the idea of challenge, effort, reward" an unfinished R/M/E can't be considerd the "Ultimate weapons"... can they?



So in short my requests are this: 1:Consider making level 90 and on Weapons closer to on par with the new equipment and content 2:Please don't give full time access of Empyrean weapon skills via WoE weapons regardless of the difficulty planned for doing so as it will Belittle empy owners, unless the unlocked WSs are weakened without having the corresponding Empyrean/WoE weapon equipped

As far as your requests--#1. I can't see that happening at all. The weapons are unfinished... please justify making lvl 90 and on weapons closer to on par with the new equipment and content, if they are unfinished... I seriously would like to know the justification. Cause if it was me (my opinion)... I'd just stop doing the trials for an unfinished R/M/E and get a drop item weapon from Delve or Skirmish or even from a Bayld purchase... less time, energy and effort involved and you'll end up with a significantly better weapon. #2. No comment--the impact of the WoE weapons and the weapon skills being unlocked should be carefully evaluated before being introduced into the game... since we're talking about weapon skills that have greater significantly greater damage multiplier by TP being used with a potentially greater damaging weapon (post-SoA).

[Byrth]

I would also unlock the RME WS for anyone that has their weapon level 90-99.

[Kajikuro]

@ Xiozen
You mistake my intent, im merely pointing out that casual players would probably prefer this because demanding they get the weapons to 99 is very disheartening, and the general response i heard when the initial suggestion of raising the damage of RME to match Delve weapons was that in short, "If it has to be 99 i quit" for assorted reasons. Im willing to do it if i feel like it, i could personally care less but my justification? its just a shame to watch as SE doubles the pace of nails into its own coffin. When i get a 99 weapon, my argument will be the same, dont bite the hand that feels you, and if you do at least be nice about it. Furthermore you apparently mistake the word "finished" for the phrase "kinda finished but not really" as the only RME weapons that meet the definition of "finished" are afterglowed and without that they have not finished, so go do that and tell me how finished you were, the fact they are allowing the "kinda finished" versions to be upgraded merely falls in your favor. As far as the Empyrean WSs we kinda agree accept i dont want Empyreans to become glorified normal Nyzal isle dropped weapons, which is what they would become.

[Severence]

Actually, Camate. Question. Will the R/M/E Revamps be the 99 only, I assume?

[Rekin]

With the upcoming revamps are some weapons and weaponskills going to be changed fundamentally to be actually effective? What immediately comes to mind is Gungnir, Redemption and Rhongomiant that are considered notoriously inferior even when compared to other RMEs. Or are these new changes simply adjustments to dmg+ atk/acc as shown in the sample? Will the weapon skills tied to the weapons be empowered to provide a new niche usage that fundamentally changes how the job functions? (ie. how Apocalypse allows DRK greater survivability with great damage and aftermath effects) and will Gungnir's additional defense down effect finally stack with other forms of defense down thus giving it an increase level of utility aside from actually weakening Dragoon by overwriting it's Angon effect?

As of now Gungnir does not fundamentally change how the job functions nor does it enhance it's currently role. Gierskogul and its aftermath presently provide nothing for the job as the weaponskill itself has always been subpar and extremely weak when compared to alternatives (aka any polearm weapon skill equal to and after penta thrust) and the aftermath atrocious as any dragoon who is using a subjob for defensive purposes has a longer and more potent(even if by 1-2%) spikes of some kind in effect. As a whole the weapon is a failure for what it was at 75 and still remains such at 99.

Redemption is simply weak compared to apocalypse in utility, damage, and performance bringing one to question why it even exists. Such a question can be applied to Rhongomiant whose stats are effectively identical and both share an equally weak weaponskill that effectively provides nothing for the jobs they belong too.

If I remember correctly there was a dev post indicating that they were going to make gungnir's additional effect stack with other defense downs.

[detlef]

@ Xiozen
You mistake my intent, im merely pointing out that casual players would probably prefer this because demanding they get the weapons to 99 is very disheartening, and the general response i heard when the initial suggestion of raising the damage of RME to match Delve weapons was that in short, "If it has to be 99 i quit" for assorted reasons. Im willing to do it if i feel like it, i could personally care less but my justification? its just a shame to watch as SE doubles the pace of nails into its own coffin. When i get a 99 weapon, my argument will be the same, dont bite the hand that feels you, and if you do at least be nice about it. Furthermore you apparently mistake the word "finished" for the phrase "kinda finished but not really" as the only RME weapons that meet the definition of "finished" are afterglowed and without that they have not finished, so go do that and tell me how finished you were, the fact they are allowing the "kinda finished" versions to be upgraded merely falls in your favor. As far as the Empyrean WSs we kinda agree accept i dont want Empyreans to become glorified normal Nyzal isle dropped weapons, which is what they would become.It sounds like Delve weapons (30k ones) are what your friends should be shooting for.

[Afania]

Weapon Revamps
Sorry, I got off track for a bit, but now I'd like to return to the topic at hand.

To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.

In regards to the kind of stats that will be added when we revamp these weapons, fundamentally the afterglow and aftermath effects as well as the other special stats will carry over and we'll be setting damage values, attack, and accuracy stats to coincide with the content level.

While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.

However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

With that said, there may be players who are worried if these weapons will eventually become unusable, but to give an example we had the lead make some calculations for the stats needed to combat the Delve boss monsters, and the below is what the RME swords would look like:

Excalibur


↓



Burtgang


↓



Almace


↓


In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.

---

Although this proposal(base dmg boost) is on the right track, it's still not thoughtful enough and certain empy 99 would still ended up a waste of effort. One of the example would be Armageddon lv 99, in most situations you'd use it for WF, it's base dmg/rattk/racc/ODD would be very irrelevant if you're using WF over another physical WS, and since base dmg doesn't affect the WS, technically you can just use a WoE gun to unlock WF, then use WF on a ice path magian gun with MAB+11 and do more WF dmg than an arma 99. The result would ended up a WoE gun+ice path gun can do close or more dmg than an arma 99

I spent around 190M to 99 my arma, when HMP cost 110~120k each. And I don't think it's fair that I have to grind another WoE+ice path or w/e new MAB gun for better result than a 190M arma 99 in situations you'd use WF.

I think either empy WS mod need to be more than +20, empy WS boost on empy 99 or change magical WS weapon, such as Armageddon, into mattk/macc+20. I have np grinding another higher base gun for last stand in w/e future content, but if I'm going to use WF, I want to WF with my Arma 99 and not anything else.

[BahamutFURYZERO9999]

While I understand what he's proposing, I don't quite get what the direction of the R/M/E weapons are going towards. Are they going to make R/M/E weapons just be on par with the Delve weapons? Or will the R/M/E weapons be completely useless in the future?

I'm perfectly fine with them making the R/M/E weapons on the same level as the Delve weapons because it'll keep the R/M/E wielders happy and also give more options to the players who don't have a lot of time to spend on getting the R/M/E weapons.

[Taint2]

I would also unlock the RME WS for anyone that has their weapon level 90-99.


A simple 5min Timed BC where you must use the RME WS on a Maat type mob would work just fine. (Mythic weapon type fight) It would allow anyone with access to the WS to unlock it. (85+ emp, WOE, Relic) Could make the player WS at 100,200,300tp like the Mythic quest to cock block people trying to unlock Relic WSs with the Abyssea drop weapons.

[xiozen]

Furthermore you apparently mistake the word "finished" for the phrase "kinda finished but not really" as the only RME weapons that meet the definition of "finished" are afterglowed and without that they have not finished, so go do that and tell me how finished you were, the fact they are allowing the "kinda finished" versions to be upgraded merely falls in your favor.

If need be I'll "dig up" the post for you from the devs, explaining that lvl 99 Afterglow, is something they only expect, what like 1% of the player base to achieve...or something completely extreme.

The "Afterglow" effect was added (and I'm relating what I remember, since I still need to find the post) as a "reward" for those players that want to show off a "trophy effect" sorta speak. So... if you don't consider a level 99 R/M/E without Afterglow finished, well I'm sorry for you. :)

I truly doubt anyone but the hardest of core players will have an Afterglow weapon and that again, is a significantly small percentage of the entire population of collective servers players together. In effect, my opinion, a level 99 R/M/E is a finished weapon--however I assume we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Smush]

I havent read many other the other posts so forgive me if this repeats what has already been stated, but anyway.

The fact that weapons will have to be 99 is kinda upsetting, an upsetting number of people i know saying something to the effect of "If i have to get my RME to 99 for it to be considered for deserving to be on par with this new weapons i am quitting. The amount of effort put into then doesnt deserve a spit in the face like this" Its hard enough getting these weapons so them being so substantially outclassed by these new weapons unless they are 99 is on pace to offend many people.

However my main concern is the idea of making WoE weapons give full access to the Empyrean line of weapon skills to be unlocked for use by any weapon, why would anyone make an actual Empyrean weapon if they can simply unlock the WS via WoE weapon and then get one of the new content weapons and not have to get their empyrean through getting to 99 to be on the same level of damage. So if the unlock able versions are not watered down to a large degree many Empyrean owners will feel cheated, mythic weapons are still awesome because they are (or were) on par with the strongest weapons in the game and gave an increase to the mythic weapon skills. So even if you do give everyone fulltime access to empyrean weapon skills give them like 30 or maybe even 40% stat mods instead of 60% so empy owners will feel like atleast it was worth something



The idea of Challenge, Effort, Reward in the minds of people is not so that their reward will be belittled, the reason RME were considered the "Ultimate weapons" is because we worked hard for them and expected them to be the best on at least one of the best regardless of 85, 90, 95 or 99 we put in the effort when we thought the reward was worth the challenge, but if you give the reward to everyone and they can use stronger weapons with the same WS for less effort then what was our effort for then?

So in short my requests are this:
1:Consider making level 90 and on Weapons closer to on par with the new equipment and content

2:Please don't give full time access of Empyrean weapon skills via WoE weapons regardless of the difficulty planned for doing so as it will Belittle empy owners, unless the unlocked WSs are weakened without having the corresponding Empyrean/WoE weapon equipped

Hey bro, if you can't get a your emps R or M's to 99 then you need to give up and upgrade to a new weapon from delve ok they are really easy to get so go do that.

Only the 99s need to be upgraded they where the best weapons not the 85-90s lol, if you stopped at that point you never planned to try and be the best and thats ok not everyone has the time or ability to make the gil but this update should be for ppl who finished there weapons to 99 emps 80-90 is a piece of cake takes like 2 weeks @ most if you do it everyday.

Getting a 99 anything take way more then that and if you don't plan on getting one please go get a delve weapon thats what there made for ppl like you so please stay out of this we don't need SE getting sidetracked and messing this all up again let the handle the task at have with good ideas from the ppl who actually had the best weapons in the game before update 99 R/M/E!

[Smush]

I would also unlock the RME WS for anyone that has their weapon level 90-99.

I think its too easy to get a 90 weapon to get get a weapon skill that will create so much imbalance

E.G mythic GA99 spamming ukko

all you would have to do is get a 90 ukko which now adays is cake.

I think if you put in the work to get a 99 emp and mythic the thats fine because its not easy, then you deserve it

Also i think if you unlock the emp WS for all weapons then doing it with the actual emp weapon it should be stronger when you do it with that weapon.

[Kajikuro]

If need be I'll "dig up" the post for you from the devs, explaining that lvl 99 Afterglow, is something they only expect, what like 1% of the player base to achieve...or something completely extreme.

The "Afterglow" effect was added (and I'm relating what I remember, since I still need to find the post) as a "reward" for those players that want to show off a "trophy effect" sorta speak. So... if you don't consider a level 99 R/M/E without Afterglow finished, well I'm sorry for you. :)

I truly doubt anyone but the hardest of core players will have an Afterglow weapon and that again, is a significantly small percentage of the entire population of collective servers players together. In effect, my opinion, a level 99 R/M/E is a finished weapon--however I assume we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Regardless of what the DEV say im merely pointing out that you misconstrue the meaning of the word "finished" and your elitist tones cant change that: completed or perfected in all details, as a product. Or polished to the highest degree of excellence. These are finished so if we agree to disagree then you must also agree to disagree with the English dictionary

[Raksha]

I think its too easy to get

...

mythic GA99

Is basically what you just said.

[Smush]

Is basically what you just said.

What im trying to say is if it only took a 90 ukko or a coin weapon to unlock ukkos fury to be used for all GAs
pretty much every war including casuals could get it and it wouldnt be to hard for a mythic war to unlock ukko and be a demi god.

If your going to allow that kind of power to be in the game make it take a lot of work so only the hardcore can obtain it.

[Raksha]

It is a lot of work.

You'd have to have a mythic.

[Alerith]

Regardless of what the DEV say im merely pointing out that you misconstrue the meaning of the word "finished" and your elitist tones cant change that: completed or perfected in all details, as a product. Or polished to the highest degree of excellence. These are finished so if we agree to disagree then you must also agree to disagree with the English dictionary

Afterglow versions are 99 +1, which is a finished product.
The 99 version without afterglow is also a finished product.

In fact, the afterglow adds absolutely zero to the weapon itself. Therefore, it's still equal in combat to a 99 without afterglow. Furthermore, the afterglow effect does not even affect you, so your combat capabilities between a 99 weapon and a 99 afterglow weapon do not change at all. They are the exact same weapon in the hands of the wielder.

[Smush]

It is a lot of work.

You'd have to have a mythic.

Yeah that part is a lot but the 90 ukko or coin weapon is not imo, i just think to get that strong you should need both 99.

[xiozen]

Afterglow versions are 99 +1, which is a finished product.
The 99 version without afterglow is also a finished product.

In fact, the afterglow adds absolutely zero to the weapon itself. Therefore, it's still equal in combat to a 99 without afterglow. Furthermore, the afterglow effect does not even affect you, so your combat capabilities between a 99 weapon and a 99 afterglow weapon do not change at all. They are the exact same weapon in the hands of the wielder.

QFT... This.

[Demon6324236]

Yeah that part is a lot but the 90 ukko or coin weapon is not imo, i just think to get that strong you should need both 99.If you have done the work to make a Mythic in the first place you have earned that power either way, at that point making an Ukon to 99 just for the WS would be a stupid but simple requirement.

[Byrth]

Making a 99 Ukon wouldn't be trivial (about 1/3 as hard as a Mythic?) but making a 99 WoE would be a walk in the park. AFK/kill some lotto NMs and then collect like 3mil of drops? Okay...

Making a WoE weapon (now that the drops are buyable) is much easier than making a 90 Ukon. It would probably take me a week of casually checking bazaars while I do other things to collect all the items I need for a 99 WoE Ukon. Apart from how long it would take of actually playing to get the drops to take Ukon to 90 (or even 85), you can convert the drops themselves into gil (people still pay like 200k each) and realize that it's a much more substantial advantage than making a WoE weapon. That's why I'd recommend unlocking the WS for anyone with a 90-99 Ukon.

[Ilpalazzo]

FYI to smush if you don't already have these weapons done your probably not going to get them done period now. From what I saw yesterday of checking dyna and looking around in bazaars no one is doing it. VW is simply dead basically no plates or dross etc. being sold at all and no shouts as well not a healthy sign of older content and lolmythic we're not even going to bring that craziness up.

I mean everyone is just doing
1. delve
2. other things in SoA since the weps more or less outclass everything right now.

I'm currently trying to figure out what to do with myself in the game (since I have to be more casual nowadays) right now since they more or less killed all events off except delve and anything SoA related this is a huge problem that needs fixing as stated with my first post.

[Smush]

FYI to smush if you don't already have these weapons done your probably not going to get them done period now. From what I saw yesterday of checking dyna and looking around in bazaars no one is doing it. VW is simply dead basically no plates or dross etc. being sold at all and no shouts as well not a healthy sign of older content and lolmythic we're not even going to bring that craziness up.

I mean everyone is just doing
1. delve
2. other things in SoA since the weps more or less outclass everything right now.

I'm currently trying to figure out what to do with myself in the game (since I have to be more casual nowadays) right now since they more or less killed all events off except delve and anything SoA related this is a huge problem that needs fixing as stated with my first post.

That is true as of right now, but i think if the weapons come back strong then dyna will come back and VW for plates and such but no way to be sure.

[Kajikuro]

Afterglow versions are 99 +1, which is a finished product.
The 99 version without afterglow is also a finished product.


Your first and second sentences are a contradiction of themselves, and the fact you are implying that the same thing, at different stages in its production, is finished definitively proves that you don't grasp the words meaning. By stating that there is a "+1" version of something means exactly that it is NOT finished, regardless of weather or not its holds any tangible value it is still not finished. Therefor it cannot be implied that it is.

And just to clarify, I am not saying that i believe the weapons should have to be afterglow to receive the enhancement. No a this point i'm simply saying that those who feign completion in an attempt of self aggrandizement are still not finished, even though they may bolster themselves as such.

And to anyone that has a 99 RME that isn't afterglow, i mean no offence. Congratulations! I am plainly attempting to reprimand those who have wrongly enthroned themselves with an achievement they haven't accomplished.

[Raksha]

My El camino is a finished product.

My El Camino that i've added spoilers and spinning rims and a turbo charger to is also a finished product.

[Kajikuro]

My El camino is a finished product.

My El Camino that i've added spoilers and spinning rims and a turbo charger to is also a finished product.

You're using a situation with multiple variations of completion based on personal preference. This is not that situation, this situation is clearly defined, it has a beginning(the vary beginning of the process of starting any RME) and an end (99 Afterglow of that weapon) where you can only be finished to the actual extent after completing these trials in sequence to a final conclusion that has no continuations, the finish product by under these conditions is afterglow.

What you're suggesting would be true however if they gave an option that once finished with afterglow you could pick one of three trials, each one making it so that after weapon skilling your character danced around in circles on the screen for 30 second shooting bubbles from its ears. Accept one of the trials would play Metallica's "One" in the background, the second trial would play Justin Beibers "Baby" and the last would play Garth Brook's "Something country idk ....shotgun... big truck.... blah" now if those were the circumstances then so long as there was not a trial proceeding them they would be finished

if each of your el camino's were to be one of those last trials (equal in value yet different in personal preference) then yes your el cartruckthing is finished

[Raksha]

You're using a situation with multiple variations of completion based on personal preference.

Yeah afterglow fits this description also.

[Kajikuro]

Yeah afterglow fists this description also.

1. Ew

2. No it doesn't

[Ilpalazzo]

TBH it's so hard to say whether or not these events will ever be done again by the more hardcore crowd since most of the gil to be made now is made with SoA upgrade items and they are already done with what they want to do they have their weapon or weapons in some cases of choice. I also have the feeling the upgrades for the new trial extension for R/M/E will be in SoA to keep them doing that content.

Casuals are screwed regardless until more of the AH-able weapons (Razorfury etc.) come into play at a reasonable price. So it's basically back to square one in that quite a bit of older content needs adjusting for them specifically to help them along with their R/M/E of choice if they still wish to pursue them. I don't envy the devs right now with this mistake to say the least.

[xiozen]

Your first and second sentences are a contradiction of themselves, and the fact you are implying that the same thing, at different stages in its production, is finished definitively proves that you don't grasp the words meaning. By stating that there is a "+1" version of something means exactly that it is NOT finished, regardless of weather or not its holds any tangible value it is still not finished. Therefor it cannot be implied that it is.

Ok... let's start off by saying: "...regardless of...WHether..." not "weather"... Next, "its"... should be "it holds any..."... and finally, "Therefor"...should be "Therefore,"... I mean if I'm going to take you seriously, please proofread your replies.


And just to clarify, I am not saying that i believe the weapons should have to be afterglow to receive the enhancement. No a this point i'm simply saying that those who feign completion in an attempt of self aggrandizement are still not finished, even though they may bolster themselves as such.

No, at this point you're just trolling because your ego is too big admit when you're wrong. /facepalm


And to anyone that has a 99 RME that isn't afterglow, i mean no offence. Congratulations! I am plainly attempting to reprimand those who have wrongly enthroned themselves with an achievement they haven't accomplished.

Here we go again... "i mean no offence..." should be "offense"... I believe you mentioned the dictionary in one of your earlier posts...

Enough trolling... please... we're having a serious discussion here. Next!

[Alerith]

By stating that there is a "+1" version of something means exactly that it is NOT finished, regardless of weather or not its holds any tangible value it is still not finished. Therefor it cannot be implied that it is.

So....a Bronze Sword +1 is finished product....but a normal Bronze Sword is not?

That is, in its entirety, incorrect.

[Zohno]

a whole page to discuss if a 99 w/o afterglow is finished?
it's like asking if the stripes make my car run faster…

[Longshot]

In my opinion, daggers need a significant boost. The best dagger available in the game is still 37 base damage less than a bullet you can buy on the AH.

This is especially true for THF. Steal is 100% useless now since there are no items that are able to be stolen in Adoulin(that I have found at least). Treasure Hunter is useless in rieves and inside a Fracture as those items have a 100% drop rate. These abilities and traits can no longer be used as excuses to keep us underpowered.

Please consider boosting R/M/E dagger damage and making it so that when 1-handed weapons are off-handed those stats are active.

[Kajikuro]

So....a Bronze Sword +1 is finished product....but a normal Bronze Sword is not?

That is, in its entirety, incorrect.

This really isnt complicated, if there are 10 trials and you do 9 you are not finished with the trials

If you need a metaphor here. Say there is a 4776 question quiz, however you figure out that you can finish the first 1776 questions and still pass. You may have completed the 1776 first questions and you may have pass the test, but you STILL HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE TEST.

If you are told to count to 10 and you count to 9 YOU DIDNT COUNT TO 10 SO YOU HAVE NOT COMPLETED COUNTING TO 10 UNTILL YOU SAY 10

[Kajikuro]

Ok... let's start off by saying: "...regardless of...WHether..." not "weather"... Next, "its"... should be "it holds any..."... and finally, "Therefor"...should be "Therefore,"... I mean if I'm going to take you seriously, please proofread your replies.



No, at this point you're just trolling because your ego is too big admit when you're wrong. /facepalm



Here we go again... "i mean no offence..." should be "offense"... I believe you mentioned the dictionary in one of your earlier posts...

Enough trolling... please... we're having a serious discussion here. Next!

The first part, you tried to use missed key strokes to insult my intelligence. Good try, points for being cliche but im sorry you will have to try harder than that to get any real merit in a debate.

Lets skip to the third part, there is nothing wrong with the way i spell offence BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERCHANGEABLE!
im serious, like for real, i hope you feel stupid for actually being wrong, because your comments on my finger slips didnt bother me.

Now for the second part, you say im trolling you? Nooooooooooooooooo i wouldnt do that....... oh wait........ BUT it has more to do with the fact that you keep replying to me than my ego bro ;)

When you have a suggestion that will help the game and not condemn it, then you're allowed to talk and i wont troll you

[Demon6324236]

When you have a suggestion that will help the game and not condemn it, then you're allowed to talk and i wont troll youI fail to see this game condemning suggestion you refer to.

[Gippo]

In my opinion, daggers need a significant boost. The best dagger available in the game is still 37 base damage less than a bullet you can buy on the AH.


Did you stop to consider the delay of the gun thats being fired, vs the delay of your daggers?

Imagine if a rng or cor could shoot as fast as you dual wield.

Get out.

[xiozen]

you keep replying to me than my ego bro ;)

Well if you stop posting, I'll stop replying... I would rather not have the Devs be sidetracked by... well, a troll... just sayin'. They have more important things to worry about.

[Karbuncle]

Daggers are getting a lot better in my eyes. I mean, i went and checked the DPS of the new Dagger and the DPS of the other R/EX Weapons and it was among the top of them... Which is what I like to see, the idea of a dagger is low DMG but superior DPS, if you have low DMG and second place DPS, then the weapon is just a failed choice...

I'm all for Daggers being boosted but, I think where they are now (2nd, maybe 3rd in overall DPS value) is a good spot. (By overall DPS i don't mean parses/etc, I mean the actual DPS Value of said weapon)

[Longshot]

Daggers are getting a lot better in my eyes. I mean, i went and checked the DPS of the new Dagger and the DPS of the other R/EX Weapons and it was among the top of them... Which is what I like to see, the idea of a dagger is low DMG but superior DPS, if you have low DMG and second place DPS, then the weapon is just a failed choice...

I'm all for Daggers being boosted but, I think where they are now (2nd, maybe 3rd in overall DPS value) is a good spot. (By overall DPS i don't mean parses/etc, I mean the actual DPS Value of said weapon)

Yeah the DPS is nice, but considering THF is attack-starved to begin with and has the same base STR as WHM you aren't going to put out anywhere near the numbers you think you are.

As for RNG delay, a 99 relic RNG with that bullet gets 100tp in what, 5 or 6 shots with a weapon with a base dmg of 221. Meanwhile I get to swing about 20 times with a 55 dmg weapon and then do an attack-starved, AGI modded ws.

They used to be able to hold Steal and Treasure Hunter over our heads and say that we don't need damage because we have those but they obsoleted that ability and trait. I'm not asking to be a top DD, I'm just asking them to close the gap a little bit between dual-wielders and 2-handers.

[Alerith]

This really isnt complicated, if there are 10 trials and you do 9 you are not finished with the trials

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere with you! A little glimmer of intelligence begins to shine forth. This is true. If you do 9/10 trials, you are not finished with the trials.

But that does not make the reward from trial 9 an incomplete reward.


If you need a metaphor here. Say there is a 4776 question quiz, however you figure out that you can finish the first 1776 questions and still pass. You may have completed the 1776 first questions and you may have pass the test, but you STILL HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE TEST.

Opinion. Having all 4776 answers bubbled in may constitute completion to you, but completing the test to me simply means answering what you choose to answer and handing it in.

By your definition, if a trial asked for 100 of an item, but you can finish it by turning in 50, is the trial not complete because you decided not to turn in those 50 items that weren't really required?

Also, let's look at something here:

com·plete
/kəmˈplēt/
Adjective
Having all the necessary or appropriate parts.

Verb
Finish making or doing.

When I finish trial 99, I have finished making a 99 weapon. It has all the necessary and appropriate parts. Therefore, a 99 weapon is a finished product as well. In fact, The level 75(Relic/Mythic) 85, 90 and 95 (RME) weapons are also finished products. They deal damage, they have stat boosts and they have the weaponskill specific to the weapon.

Now, I'm not saying 75-95 RME should get the stat boost. I agree that the weapon must be at least 99, only because no 75-95 weapon should be on par with any other 99 weapon. But the 99 without afterglow is a completed and finished weapon, the afterflow being merely a tac'd on bonus.

It's akin to buying a car. It's a finished product and performs its role just fine. If you choose to add turbochargers, paint jobs, spinning rims, a new suspension kit and fuzzy dice in the mirror, those are good upgrades, but does not detract from the fact that the stock vehicle is indeed finished.

[Kajikuro]

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere with you! A little glimmer of intelligence begins to shine forth. This is true. If you do 9/10 trials, you are not finished with the trials.

But that does not make the reward from trial 9 an incomplete reward.



Opinion. Having all 4776 answers bubbled in may constitute completion to you, but completing the test to me simply means answering what you choose to answer and handing it in.

By your definition, if a trial asked for 100 of an item, but you can finish it by turning in 50, is the trial not complete because you decided not to turn in those 50 items that weren't really required?

Also, let's look at something here:

com·plete
/kəmˈplēt/
Adjective
Having all the necessary or appropriate parts.

Verb
Finish making or doing.

When I finish trial 99, I have finished making a 99 weapon. It has all the necessary and appropriate parts. Therefore, a 99 weapon is a finished product as well. In fact, The level 75(Relic/Mythic) 85, 90 and 95 (RME) weapons are also finished products. They deal damage, they have stat boosts and they have the weaponskill specific to the weapon.

Now, I'm not saying 75-95 RME should get the stat boost. I agree that the weapon must be at least 99, only because no 75-95 weapon should be on par with any other 99 weapon. But the 99 without afterglow is a completed and finished weapon, the afterflow being merely a tac'd on bonus.

It's akin to buying a car. It's a finished product and performs its role just fine. If you choose to add turbochargers, paint jobs, spinning rims, a new suspension kit and fuzzy dice in the mirror, those are good upgrades, but does not detract from the fact that the stock vehicle is indeed finished.

By your definition and your car metaphor that feeds my original point, 85 weapons are completed, they perform all the functions of the "fully working car" but doesn't have the turbo charger so on and so forth, so by your very example and request 85 weapons should get the upgrade because "It's a finished product and performs its role just fine." DIRECT QUOTE

As far as your 99 weapon and your deserving of the increase while condemning everyone else who you say are also finished, go and ask a 99 afterglow person how Completely finished and deserving of the same they deserve.

You cant say 85 isnt finished without saying 99 isnt finished because as you say they are both finished products and perform the role just fine however if you say 99 is finished then by proxy 85 is also finished and equally deserving of a damage increase.

[Alerith]

By your definition and your car metaphor that feeds my original point, 85 weapons are completed, they perform all the functions of the "fully working car" but doesn't have the turbo charger so on and so forth, so by your very example and request 85 weapons should get the upgrade because "It's a finished product and performs its role just fine." DIRECT QUOTE

As far as your 99 weapon and your deserving of the increase while condemning everyone else who you say are also finished, go and ask a 99 afterglow person how Completely finished and deserving of the same they deserve.

You cant say 85 isnt finished without saying 99 isnt finished because as you say they are both finished products and perform the role just fine however if you say 99 is finished then by proxy 85 is also finished and equally deserving of a damage increase.

Your entire post if fallacious, as a 85-95 weapon is not a 99 weapon. An 85-95 RME should not be comparable to a normal 99 weapon at any point, regardless of its status as a complete weapon.

There is no level difference between a 99 and a 99 with afterglow, therefore it is acceptable for a 99 without afterglow to be comparable to a normal 99 weapon while it is unacceptable for an 85-95 weapon to be comparable to the same.



As far as your 99 weapon and your deserving of the increase while condemning everyone else who you say are also finished, go and ask a 99 afterglow person how Completely finished and deserving of the same they deserve.

Not once did I claim to have a 99 weapon, nor the right to have mine increased while condemning others. I have an 85 Almace and a 90 Ochain. I am speaking from the position of the man on the bottom rung, and I STILL believe that only 99 (without/without afterglow) is acceptable. I do not expect my 85 Almace to get a stat boost to make it superior in damage, because there already exist trials for that. The difference between the 99 and 99 with afterglow is non existent.

Also, I highly doubt that the majority of players with afterglow feel they are more entitled to the upgrade than any other non-afterglow 99 holder.

[Dragoy]

I might take it as far as to say that the level 75 relic and mythic weapons are finished. Everything past that I see as upgrades.

The empyrean weapons are obviously different in that they were not created during the level 75 era. I'm quite indecisive about when I think they're complete. I want to say it's when you get the actual weapon, its name and its form, but I also want to say it's when you get the weapon skill. Anything past that are definitely upgrades.

Afterglow, however, I don't even consider to be an upgrade. More like an insult to what other things the items/money could be used for! Not insulting those who have completed that trial; I only hope those people feel good about going fer it. ^^;

Yeah... most probably wont agree with me too much here, but that's fine, and to be expected! I wouldn't be shoving my opinion upon others, I just wanted to say that I agree on that the Afterglow-trial is not needed to have a finished product.

As for the damage boost, I wouldn't mind if they adjusted the lower level versions. I might even think that the 'super weapons' should be better than some of the higher level not—so—super weapons even (mainly thinking of Trial of the Magians weapons here), but they already mentioned they're going for the 99 versions only (afterglow doesn't matter, and yeah, not like they haven't gone back changing their plans before, right), and I have no problem with that even though I have only ever made one level 99 weapon (Mandau) and that was for a friend even.

I might get my empyreans to 99 when I can solo Voidwatch. >:D

[FrankReynolds]

I dunno, I kinda think they need to make it scale from 75/80. I don't think a guy who has a 95 relic and 4 umbril marrows should do 100 less damage per swing than a guy with a 99 relic.

Somehow I think that they had planned to release the equipment much more slowly so that everyone had an opportunity to catch up, but the bad reactions to the expansion forced them to speed up the release cycle. Now there is a huge gap between gear levels.

[Karbuncle]

I dunno, I kinda think they need to make it scale from 75/80. I don't think a guy who has a 95 relic and 4 umbril marrows should do 100 less damage per swing than a guy with a 99 relic.

I actually agree and rate up pretty much all of your posts on this subject, this, I'm a little "no" on.

Personally, I think it should. I'm not getting a Delve weapon because I'm 29k/30k, Just not how it works. They want to buff the 99 Versions because buffing the 90 or 95 will just make it more of the same problem. They want people who worked the stupidity of 99's to be able to use them, not that 90/95 Emps are still > Every non-RME.

And essentially, what they're doing is making the 99Relics go up the gear ladder like the rest of gear/weapons which are level "100, 110, and 120" or such, so they're making 99 Relics "Level 110" or so, which i think is a good idea. Saddly that means if they release level 130/140/150 weapons later, we might just be back at the same problem... but its whatevs TBH, I think It'll be easier for me to let my Mandau die now that I've given up on THF Entirely... since TH is useless, Despoil/Steal don't work on new mobs, Nothing's dropped gil since WoTG so Mug/Gilfinder are more useless... Just a dead job, and I'm liking PUP and MNK more cause i got the shiny Delve h2h :3

[Demonmaniac]

I'm liking PUP and MNK more cause i got the shiny Delve h2h :3

Rated up for this part :3

[Okipuit]

So will you, in the future, add a way in the game to differentiate between lv.99 equipment which are of different content levels, such as a visual cue like the borders for HQ items or even display the content level in the description?

We've received similar feedback outside of the forum as well and are currently working on making it possible to implement this.

Once we are at the stage where we can show you a sample, we'll be sure to post an image!

[FrankReynolds]

I actually agree and rate up pretty much all of your posts on this subject, this, I'm a little "no" on.

Personally, I think it should. I'm not getting a Delve weapon because I'm 29k/30k, Just not how it works. They want to buff the 99 Versions because buffing the 90 or 95 will just make it more of the same problem. They want people who worked the stupidity of 99's to be able to use them, not that 90/95 Emps are still > Every non-RME.

And essentially, what they're doing is making the 99Relics go up the gear ladder like the rest of gear/weapons which are level "100, 110, and 120" or such, so they're making 99 Relics "Level 110" or so, which i think is a good idea. Saddly that means if they release level 130/140/150 weapons later, we might just be back at the same problem... but its whatevs TBH, I think It'll be easier for me to let my Mandau die now that I've given up on THF Entirely... since TH is useless, Despoil/Steal don't work on new mobs, Nothing's dropped gil since WoTG so Mug/Gilfinder are more useless... Just a dead job, and I'm liking PUP and MNK more cause i got the shiny Delve h2h :3

I guess I see what you mean. I just hate the idea of such a huge performance gap on anything.

On a related note, I have all the currency to build a Mandau now, but I'm on the fence about doing it because I'm not sure if they will ever upgrade these weapons again. I may just bazaar it all and spend the gil on something else (not sure what to buy now that these weapons have an uncertain future). I really wanted a shiny gold knife or some spharai for my monk though.

/sigh

[Riggs]

please can you consider the expense of upgrading a relic from level 95 to 99, 5 umbral marrows at 15 mil each may not have been to bad when it was the final upgrade of the best weapon but considering the ease of newer better weapons the expense of this upgrade is just not worth it.

[Arkista]

Dev Team I have a question about unlocking the Emp weapon skills most people are saying level 99 Emp or 99 WoE "Coin" weapons should be used to unlock but what about the ones who made more than one Emp and have the 85 Versions any way to make it so that the 85 version could unlock the weapon skill? I would not mind losing an 85 version forever just to unlock a weapon skill. A lot of people like myself don't have the time to play all day every day, maybe 8 years ago when I was still a kid but not these days.

[Vold]

I guess I see what you mean. I just hate the idea of such a huge performance gap on anything.

On a related note, I have all the currency to build a Mandau now, but I'm on the fence about doing it because I'm not sure if they will ever upgrade these weapons again. I may just bazaar it all and spend the gil on something else (not sure what to buy now that these weapons have an uncertain future). I really wanted a shiny gold knife or some spharai for my monk though.

/sighWell, I had just bought 5 marrows/60 mil to take my mandua to 99 just a week or two before SoA was released. I wanted to get it done before I got busy with new stuff. Let me tell you, I regret the decision. So I don't know, might want to take the gil instead if you can't live with a possible future trophy item.

I was pretty firm on my stance never to give in to that 99 ADL trial nonsense but I had taken 6 months off after a very large sum of gil was lost trying to HQ cursed hauberk -1s after my first three HQs that I nailed quickly my first couple of times out. I seriously blew like over 500k per synth, 25 million or so with NQ after NQ, break after insanely high break rate break. I was still ahead but damn that hurt my desire to play. Came back, got weak and looking for a reason to hang around, spent 60 million gil on Mandau 99. Not one of my proudest moments knowing what I know now. Maybe it wasn't wasted, maybe it was. But I do know you are best off sleeping on it for at least many many nights if you have any urge left for the gold.

It's quite the gamble. Also, anyone who ever finished a relic without buying currency or finished a mythic(in any way they could) to 99 does not deserve to be told their princess is in another castle, is all I'm saying. I'll live if I'm boned but it's just a damn crying shame to see certain people that really have given this game their all be so easily crapped on. They didn't even get the slightest of respect! (I mean damn it's like, you have afterglow 99 weap? Yeah I'm not impressed, sorry. You have a mythic? Oh shit!) So for SE it's like, here's uber new weapons practically free for all and here's stuff that can be sold if you don't want to do most of the work. Oh wait you no happy? Oh gosh we didn't have a clue about RME we new crew, here you have unlocked WS! Oh you no happy? Gosh we really don't know about RME, we'll upgrade their base damage for now but you should know they won't be #1 anymore ok ok ^.^

For reals? It's not the end of the universe or anything but damn dog, that's cold. At least the majority of players will be wielding decent weaponry for group stuff here on out, I guess?

[Ryolen]

I'm a bit confused guys. I'm pretty sure the ones that are gonna be equally matched with the REM weaps are the delve plasm ones not the delve boss ones. Getting to rank 15 is somewhat expensive, either through plasm or gil. I could've sworn I read somewhere though that they were increasing the rank to 20(+)..in which case would be very similar to obtaining a REM since it'll take several weeks and or months to obtain capped rank.

I see the delve boss weaps like I see the Legion/VW/Odin2 Lance, really awesome dropped weaps. Not the ones competing with REM though.

Your thoughts?

[Umichi]

depends on the rarity and how long until delve bosses are on farm status by major linkshells

[Asymptotic]

I'm a bit confused guys. I'm pretty sure the ones that are gonna be equally matched with the REM weaps are the delve plasm ones not the delve boss ones. Getting to rank 15 is somewhat expensive, either through plasm or gil. I could've sworn I read somewhere though that they were increasing the rank to 20(+)..in which case would be very similar to obtaining a REM since it'll take several weeks and or months to obtain capped rank.

I see the delve boss weaps like I see the Legion/VW/Odin2 Lance, really awesome dropped weaps. Not the ones competing with REM though.

Your thoughts?

All of the boss weapons are better than fully upgraded plasm weapons by 10% or more (sometimes a lot more)

[Ryolen]

Yea Asy I know this, but Im talking about further ranks added to the current plasm weapons, possibly increasing damage and or WS damage or something. At rank 15 the delve weapons are nice but wont beat out delve boss or the upgraded REM whenever that hits. The delve boss weapons cannot possibly be the REM equivalent because theyre just a random drop, not built.

Idk where I read it but I saw that they were making the plasm weapons rankable to 20 or maybe 25? idr now. The cost of rank points needed to cap it at that point would be very similar to upgrading a REM which is why it makes perfect sense.

Sorry for typos im at work on my cell XD

[Oakrest]

I updated my lengthy post here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33458-Follow-up-Level-99-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-and-Walk-of-Echoes-Weapons?p=433199&viewfull=1#post433199) with: "... AH weapons are not a bad thing (a nice option for new players catching up with end content). They just should only ever be a close 2nd to R/M/E."

[Kombys]

REM and walk of echos Weapons all them are time and hard work but what about Glowing Weapons (Borealis, Murasamemaru, etc, etc) those weapons are a lot of time and money to get, if you do math you can see buying 5 pulse cell for any of those weapons will be > Walk of echos weapons, Glowing weapons have unique stats and hidden effects but even with all that, they will be useless if not already are useless, any plans on upgrading those weapons SE/DEV Team or just letting them die? if dont play onupgrade, whata bout let us slip them?

Honestly i'd like to see an upgrade on those weapons

[Kincard]

Bit too lazy to read through the whole thread so dunno if these have been mentioned:

1. Please make it so that either 85 or 90 Empyreans can unlock the weapon skill as the 99 Coins can- given how much easier WoE is now it's actually not too much of a stretch to compare it to finishing an 85 or 90 Empyrean.

2. I suppose you can make relic WSs unlockable too, but it's not like people will bother with any of them without AM- MAYBE Catastrophe in a pinch, heh.

[Tanama]

For the Empyrian weapons, along with their DMG, Attack and Accuracy upgrade, can you also increase the stat bonus from +20 to +40?

Thank you.

[Byrth]

For the Empyrian weapons, along with their DMG, Attack and Accuracy upgrade, can you also increase the stat bonus from +20 to +40?

Thank you.

OK NP DAWG ITLL BE CULE.

[Tanama]

OK NP DAWG ITLL BE CULE.

WHIEL UR AT IT IMPROVE CMLANS 2RMANT AND QUEITUS SO TAHT THEY DONT SUK!!!11 LOL

[Kincard]

I really hope they take this opportunity to finally fix a lot of problems with the crappy weapons. The fact that they seem to have realized that a bunch of Mythics get boned because of their higher delay combined with lower D gives me hope.