While adjusting REMC - Gimped offhanding while dual wielding

[Mayoyama]

With all the adjustments going into lv99 REMC, I feel now would be a good time to reraise the issue of relics and mythics being gimped when in the offhand. The last time this issue was discussed was under a different director so I would like to ask Mr Matsui to please seriously consider changing whatever programming that prevents these weapons from being effective as an off-hand weapon

Taking katanas as an example:
Kannagi will give the +AGI stat regardless of whether it is in main or offhand

BUT

Kikoku 95/99 gives +35/40 Attack main hand and NOTHING offhand
Mythic bonuses also give NOTHING in offhand

If someone has put in the hard effort and money to make a 99 relic/mythic then they should be given the right to receive full bonuses if they choose to offhand these weapons. I would say that it would be fair to require a person to 99 the weapon to receive the bonuses in offhand, but I would assume from a programming perspective it would be easier to allow it to work for any level weapon.

[Thegreatmonkey]

I think that the weapons being in the offhand prevents you from equipping say a relic dagger and relic sword at the same time to get the effect of both weapons. This could be overpowered.

[Mayoyama]

Overpowered maybe pre-adoulin... but now... lol.... and are you meaning the aftermaths or just the base stats?

I am purely asking for the stats and/or added effects to be allowed.. nothing regarding ws or aftermaths relating to those ws

And if the stats are allowed for empys, why not open it up for relics and mythics also?

[Thegreatmonkey]

Well...I am amusing SE is going to listen to the players this time around and make them the best weapons again. I think this might take about 3 to 4 months tho...

[Alhanelem]

Overpowered maybe pre-adoulin... but now... lol.... and are you meaning the aftermaths or just the base stats?

I am purely asking for the stats and/or added effects to be allowed.. nothing regarding ws or aftermaths relating to those ws

And if the stats are allowed for empys, why not open it up for relics and mythics also?It will be just as overpowered post audolin when they buff the dmg on the weapons.

[Vold]

At 75 it might have been overpowered, but not at 99. Level 99 has done more harm to balance than dual wielding RMEs ever could dream of, and now they went another step further with the latest weapons. I'm seeing exactly zero reasons not to allow full on dual wield benefits anymore, and the only reason to not do it is because it wouldn't benefit 100% of the playerbase, unless their plan is to tell us to stuff it on RMEs and to get a new weapon, then I suppose that's another reason.


And I'm just going to shoot this down right now, if mr. warrior wants to DW RMEs then he can put down his GA and go get 1h RMEs and DW them to his heart's content on ninja or thf or bst/nin or whatever. We've been there done that with 2h job arguments and it never goes anywhere but "yeah well if I can't have DW then you can't either! nanananana, naaa!"


SE and many of it's customers tend to throw around "over powered" a lot. I'm not sure any one of those people understands just what the term means. When we can get freely buffed through gear progression or crafted meds the abilities of crit hit rate and crit hit damage, for example like RR atma outside of Abyssea, in all areas of the game, THEN we shall have over powered problems. Until then, understand that me dual wielding a Vajra in my offhand is not going to suddenly give me RR atma like powers. It merely puts me ahead of the THF without x2 RME, and that is really where the problem comes down to - FAIRNESS.

Fairness. Plain and simple. It's not fair despite me working for it so I can't do it. Period. It's not about power. It's about fairness. Fairness for the war/sam who can't DW great axes. Etc examples. Politics should be left out of gaming, but it rarely is. And THAT is why we can't currently dual wield 1h RMEs. Nothing more, nothing less.

But if people really want to talk fairness, they can start about why it's fair for RMEs to even exist. They are obviously not designed for 100% of the playerbase. So explain to me why RME and such are fair game but not dual wielding RMEs. You may start BSing in... 3... 2.... 1.... GO.

[Mayoyama]

Buffed RME in main hand with maxed out delve wep in offhand vs Dualwielded RMEs... nope dont see any form of "overpowered" here....

That argument died when they added delve weapons to the game

EDIT: In fact, I am pretty sure in many cases the new delve weapons would be supperior at max level anyway.... at least removing the offhand gimping allows me the option to make some use of an otherwise multi-million dollar paperweight

[Thegreatmonkey]

Buffed RME in main hand with maxed out delve wep in offhand vs Dualwielded RMEs... nope dont see any form of "overpowered" here....

That argument died when they added delve weapons to the game

EDIT: In fact, I am pretty sure in many cases the new delve weapons would be supperior at max level anyway.... at least removing the offhand gimping allows me the option to make some use of an otherwise multi-million dollar paperweight

SE said and have even post what will happen to the R/M/E weapons. They are going to get a damage upgrade that will make them the best weapons in the game again.

[ManaKing]

I think that the weapons being in the offhand prevents you from equipping say a relic dagger and relic sword at the same time to get the effect of both weapons. This could be overpowered.

Yes....because RDM would suddenly become a bad ass instead of just up to par with the rest of the game on DPS if they allowed the only job that can dual wield relics the full benefit of them.

Hide the women and children.

[Return1]

But if people really want to talk fairness, they can start about why it's fair for RMEs to even exist. They are obviously not designed for 100% of the playerbase. So explain to me why RME and such are fair game but not dual wielding RMEs. You may start BSing in... 3... 2.... 1.... GO.

I can't stand people like you.

They're fair because everyone has the same opportunity. Your impatience and/or laziness doesn't make it unfair, it makes it so you don't deserve one. Do you get mad and call it unfair when playing an offline RPG and you don't put the effort in to get the ultimate weapon? No? Then shut the f*ck up.

Relic type weapons are supposed to be rewards for the dedicated, not some sh*thead that wants a weapon handed to them.

I bet you complain that someone that works harder and longer than you makes more money than you too.

[Alpheus]

allows me the option to make some use of an otherwise multi-million dollar paperweight
But think of all the envelopes your Mandau can open now!

[Mayoyama]

But think of all the envelopes your Mandau can open now!

Lol... I dont even know how to reply to that....


SE said and have even post what will happen to the R/M/E weapons. They are going to get a damage upgrade that will make them the best weapons in the game again.

No.. theyre going to make RME comparable to (not better than) other non-RME. If you look at the examples given in that thread, the base dmg on the RME weps is already lower than the top tier weapons from Delve mega bosses, so for some weps that were made purely for their high base dmg (mainly relics), they may as well not exist even after the update.

[Demon6324236]

No.. theyre going to make RME comparable to (not better than) other non-RME. If you look at the examples given in that thread, the base dmg on the RME weps is already lower than the top tier weapons from Delve mega bosses, so for some weps that were made purely for their high base dmg (mainly relics), they may as well not exist even after the update.Depends on the weapon, seeing as accuracy matters now the Accuracy+60 on Relics will be amazing, the Attack+20 will help them match up to the non-RMEs, for one handed weapons its much the same but with 60Attack & 20Acc, not to mention the hidden effects so long as they stay. I think most of them will be the best, except Emps which I believe were just taken down a notch and the Mythics are now almost all amazing.

[Return1]

The Mythic update they showed left Burtgang behind Excalibur in DPS not considering AMs or ODD procs.

Excalibur is going to be the strongest sword for pure damage again unless the new ones have hidden effects or far more powerful augments than what we've seen.


They also only said that REM weapons wouldn't be the end all be all and that there will be comparable weapons.

[Demon6324236]

The Mythic update they showed left Burtgang behind Excalibur in DPS not considering AMs or ODD procs.Putting in 120 DMG for the RDM Mythic, it comes out above Excalibur and Almace when spamming CDC so long as you put up AM3 correctly, I do not know if the same goes for PLD but Burtgang has a beastly amount of DMG on it for higher DMG weapon skills so I would think it would do about the same with AM3 up, its flaw is that unlike Death Blossom its WS is total trash because they have never updated the thing. Burt is one of the ones which get screwed somewhat in that respect, where as other weapons like WAR's Mythic get amazing jumps in damage because you get AM3 and Ukko's, which Ukko's is the best thing that Mythic never had before, the same goes for Mythic SAMs I think, since they lacked Fudo or Kaiten with it. Depending on if they still unlock Relic WSs or not, Liberator will become a beast too because of AM3 with Cata I'm sure. The list goes on, but for the most part Emp/Relic WS + Mythic = Awesome weapon!

[Daniel]

I was under the impression that the only reason that SE was squawking about balance with using weapons like that on offhand was that 2h weapon users didn't get the same benefit. However, each swing from a 2h weapon gains the full benefit, and they already get much better gear in terms of mele stats. DW is not a competitor for damage against 2h, and no amount of relic or mythic off handing will change that.

[ManaKing]

I was under the impression that the only reason that SE was squawking about balance with using weapons like that on offhand was that 2h weapon users didn't get the same benefit. However, each swing from a 2h weapon gains the full benefit, and they already get much better gear in terms of mele stats. DW is not a competitor for damage against 2h, and no amount of relic or mythic off handing will change that.

It's very true. If nothing else, 2H will always have the advantage while WSing. The cap for hits in an attack round / WS is 8. We all know this. So when a 2H weapon swings 5 times or more, 1H gets left in the dust because they already swung 8 times trying to keep up with 2 weapons that have half the damage.

While some modifiers are more generous, like Ruinator, most 1H WSs are not STR based. In start contrast, MOST 2H weapons have a Merit WS or Empy WS that is STR based. Scythe being the exception for how you can make a 2H's WS damage underwhelming.

---
@demon

You know what Death Blossom is good for and it does that very well. It could use a damage revamp IF RDM was a DD, but we both know it's not.

Death Blossom with Murgleis puts out good damage and serves multiple functions. We can hope that they will keep Murgleis where it is currently, the strongest DPS 1H Mythic, because we need a job specific crutch. RDM doesn't have a TP set that does damage well while TPing well, so they made Murgleis stronger than most for us. It's actually stronger than every other Mythic in DPS except Great Axe, Scythe, and Polearm and beats out Great Katana and every other Mythic below it.

All the times I played with it on the Test Server, I found the numbers for Death Blossom with the Murgleis to be completely satisfactory because they were hitting the same ball park as Req and we both know it doesn't have an attack penalty, unlike Req. Better SC properties and tears M.Eva.

Murgleis doesn't make RDM a DPS dynamo, but it does make it worthy for front line exposure and benefits the back line as well.

[Demon6324236]

I was not saying it was bad, I way saying that Atonement is. Death Blossom is not to bad by compare to KoR in optimum gear, it falls behind about 20% when comparing it to Excalibur using their own WSs, but it lacks 10% WS damage, so it makes sense. Everything I was saying was meant to point out that Burtgang has a natural flaw when it comes to its AM because it has to deal with a WS that caps its damage at such a low number, where as in RDM's case as well as every other job so far as I know, we get WSs where we can use gear to boost their numbers, and with the +30% damage they come out as respectable WSs. The reason for PLD its such a problem is its a job which does not build TP very fast, and you have to build upto 300 just to blow it all on a WS with terrible damage so that you can finally get AM3 up for a minute, of which you might get one or two WSs out of at best I think on PLD, so Atonements damage is a large drawback in and of itself when it comes to Burtgang's overall damage, a flaw which no others share.

[ManaKing]

oh, ha! now i see it. Yeah Atonement....that one is special. If Burt didn't have all that extra PLD job gravy all over it, I would agree. The weapon is still amazing from a defensive standpoint.

If nothing else, it is catered directly towards PLD and is still one of the better Mythics without even factoring AM3 or Mythic WS.

[Demon6324236]

oh, ha! now i see it. Yeah Atonement....that one is special. If Burt didn't have all that extra PLD job gravy all over it, I would agree. The weapon is still amazing from a defensive standpoint.

If nothing else, it is catered directly towards PLD and is still one of the better Mythics without even factoring AM3 or Mythic WS.Right, but the way Return was going off that Mythic alone, which is a horrid example of what Mythics will be capable of by comparison to the others. A Conq WAR spamming Ukko's, a Koga SAM spamming Fudo, or a Lib DRK spamming Cata would be amazing, Burt suffers a flaw due to the WS needed to put up AM3, but the other weapons are about to go from ok damage to amazing damage in 1 shot thanks to unlocking great WSs for them. I was just trying to point out to him hes basically using the worst possible weapon as an example of how Mythics will not become the best for sure, when most things point to the fact they will, except that one, because its not made for damage.

[Return1]

DPS is DPS no matter how you cut it. Burtgang is a slow weapon that needs a crappy WS, at 300tp, to get a, non-refreshable, aftermath.

Excalibur has better DPS. Faster WS, more WS, ODD proc that doesn't require aftermath, and a fairly potent added effect. It looks to be the best sword in the game depending on how delve boss weapons turn out.

That said, Burtgang is pretty broken for tanking now, post tanking adjustments.

[Demon6324236]

DPS is DPS no matter how you cut it. Burtgang is a slow weapon that needs a crappy WS, at 300tp, to get a, non-refreshable, aftermath.

Excalibur has better DPS. Faster WS, more WS, ODD proc that doesn't require aftermath, and a fairly potent added effect. It looks to be the best sword in the game depending on how delve boss weapons turn out.

That said, Burtgang is pretty broken for tanking now, post tanking adjustments.Yes but thats only 1 of 3 swords, 1 of 20 weapons in total, the other 19 do not suffer that fatal flaw in DPS, and as you said, its broken for tanking, which is and was its best use. The whole point I was making is that your example goes by the least useful of weapons, even if it is the only example of Mythics we were given, where as many other combos will be amazing for damage and do not have those short comings. Basically I agree when it comes to PLD, Excalibur will remain its best DD option, but its because Burtgang is doomed with a flawed WS, where as most others are not so unlucky, so they will often be able to get more DPS with a Mythic, as I said before, RDM Mythic stands to be RDM's best option post update if it has around 120DMG, which to me seems reasonably likely. Without Emp WSs Mythics are very situational because they lack a great WS for most of the best ones, like Lib, Conq, and Koga, but with them getting Relic and Emp WSs rather than simply their own and the merit WSs they have the potential to be the best, so far as I know Koga's greatest setback was no Fudo/Kaiten like R & E have, Conq has no Ukko's, Lib has no access to the best Scythe skill, all of that is solved with their plans so far as I know except potentially the Relic WSs, since they have not confirmed that since they changed their plans to include updating RMEs themselves.

[Longshot]

1-handers also need a damage boost in general.

NIN is pretty useless now as it can't tank any of the new stuff. There are no steal pools for mobs in Adoulin and drops are 100% in Reives and Fractures so steal and TH are useless. Yet 1-handers remain FAR behind in damage potential.

As I posted in another thread, the highest damage dagger available in the game has 108 damage and presumably drops from a Delve boss. Yet I can buy a 145 damage BULLET off from the AH right now.

Please consider making the stats on an offhand R/M/E active and also boosting the base damage of 1-hand R/M/E.

[Return1]

All of the mythics will be behind the relics. Mythics are, in general, garbage weapons without AM up, and most Mythic WSs are garbage. So unless you're SAM or DRG your mythic is probably not going to be the best option.

RDM would still be far better suited using CDC on Excalibur. RDM is attack starved and already poor at building TP so dropping 40 attack and saving up 300tp to use a subpar WS is not ideal for overall damage. Again the free ODD and added effect will outdo anything Murg is gonna put out.

WAR is going to be better off with Bravura in most cases as well. Once again triggering AM is a weakness. Missing out on free ODD, a crapton of ACC, and giving up 3 Ukko's Fury to use a 300 TP King's Justice to trigger AM is not the way to go about DDing.

Liberator suffers the same. Apocalypse will have a big advantage stats wise, ODD, and the haste AM means less haste needed so more ACC/ATK/STR/DEX gear which is a big deal at new events. On top of that, Ragnarok should still handily beat both for pure damage.

Ryu was already great, and the Emp WS sucks. Nothing new there.

Kogarasamaru is the big winner here. SAM is probably the least hurt by the TP holding just because the speed at which they build it, and Meditate lining up pretty well with the AM duration. It gets a nice new WS to add to its arsenal with no real downside.

The only argument you could make is 2 handed mythics being better Zerg weapons when you can open with 300tp.

[Byrth]

I like this idea and have suggested it in every RME adjustments thread. I don't think it would be broken. I'm okay with allowing WS access from the sub hand. 99 Empyreans are already frequently the best 1H offhands, so it doesn't really raise the bar as much as allowing us to benefit from jumping it.


As far as the damage stuff above:

1) Murgleis has higher DPS than Vajra, Terpsichore, Carnwenhan, Burtgang, Yagrush, and (barely) Aymur. It has lower DPS than either of the H2H weapons, even if you calculate them without Martial Arts traits. Kenkonken has 30% higher DPS than Murgleis even if you somehow remove native Martial Arts traits from PUP. Glanzfaust is 22% higher if you somehow remove native Martial Arts traits from MNK.

2) The post-patch hierarchy answer (assuming the sword examples were accurate) is:
* Mythics will be the best if you can maintain AM3.
* Relics are the best if you can't maintain Mythic AM3 and can wear them.
* Empyreans are the best if you can't maintain Mythic AM3 and can't wear a Relic.
You would need to be continuously fighting to meet the conditions for Mythic AM3 to be viable (either a hard NM or many consecutive monsters). Currently we either kill hard NMs or many consecutive monsters, so Mythics will be the best for every job unless SE dramatically changes the game with a Delve 2.0 event.

[ManaKing]

I like this idea and have suggested it in every RME adjustments thread. I don't think it would be broken. I'm okay with allowing WS access from the sub hand. 99 Empyreans are already frequently the best 1H offhands, so it doesn't really raise the bar as much as allowing us to benefit from jumping it.


As far as the damage stuff above:

1) Murgleis has higher DPS than Vajra, Terpsichore, Carnwenhan, Burtgang, Yagrush, and (barely) Aymur. It has lower DPS than either of the H2H weapons, even if you calculate them without Martial Arts traits. Kenkonken has 30% higher DPS than Murgleis even if you somehow remove native Martial Arts traits from PUP. Glanzfaust is 22% higher if you somehow remove native Martial Arts traits from MNK.


Forgot all about H2H as far as 1H because we were talking about offhands.



2) The post-patch hierarchy answer (assuming the sword examples were accurate) is:
* Mythics will be the best if you can maintain AM3.
* Relics are the best if you can't maintain Mythic AM3 and can wear them.
* Empyreans are the best if you can't maintain Mythic AM3 and can't wear a Relic.
You would need to be continuously fighting to meet the conditions for Mythic AM3 to be viable (either a hard NM or many consecutive monsters). Currently we either kill hard NMs or many consecutive monsters, so Mythics will be the best for every job unless SE dramatically changes the game with a Delve 2.0 event.

I can't see it any other way.



RDM would still be far better suited using CDC on Excalibur. RDM is attack starved and already poor at building TP so dropping 40 attack and saving up 300tp to use a subpar WS is not ideal for overall damage. Again the free ODD and added effect will outdo anything Murg is gonna put out.


I can't agree with that only because CDC, like most crit based WSs have very poor showings in Adoulin. Death Blossom with +30% DMG would hit for more than CDC even without AM3 up because it's STR and MND instead of DEX. We have gear for DB, not for CDC.

While you might have similar total DPS with an Excalibur, you'd get more utility for the mage side of your job because of the M.ACC on the sword. You don't lose out to the additional affect procs from Excal by much because you have enspells and with AM3 up, you would get more out of Enspells.

I don't disagree that against multiple mobs, Excalibur will pull ahead, but against an extended boss fight (which you are more than welcome to argue that RDMs should be fighting regardless) I would go with the Murgleis and Death Blossom.

[Return1]

I won't question RDM's place in meleeing since you're talking from an understood rdm melee.

If there's MACC on Murg, you can't be sure RDM will get ACC/ATK instead of MACC buffs. On any long drawn out battle, that 60 attack, added effect, and ODD will pull far ahead. On anything that big ACC and ATK are RDMs biggest hindrances. ACC on CDC should be better than Death Blossom by virtue of the DEX mod and the DEX gear you should stack. Crits also help RDM's poor pDIF. RDM's slow TP gain makes the AM buildup like pulling teeth as well.

[Demon6324236]

RDM would still be far better suited using CDC on Excalibur. RDM is attack starved and already poor at building TP so dropping 40 attack and saving up 300tp to use a subpar WS is not ideal for overall damage. Again the free ODD and added effect will outdo anything Murg is gonna put out.The RDM spreadsheet seems to disagree on almost any mob, including new ones, but you have to keep in mind the idea of taking out some DA/TA in WS and TP in exchange for some more Attack items like Vespid Mantle, so they do not interfere with your AM3 while its up.


If there's MACC on Murg, you can't be sure RDM will get ACC/ATK instead of MACC buffs. On any long drawn out battle, that 60 attack, added effect, and ODD will pull far ahead. On anything that big ACC and ATK are RDMs biggest hindrances. ACC on CDC should be better than Death Blossom by virtue of the DEX mod and the DEX gear you should stack. Crits also help RDM's poor pDIF. RDM's slow TP gain makes the AM buildup like pulling teeth as well.If they give it Magic Accuracy instead of the 20 Attack and Accuracy that I assume we are getting then Excalibur would be the top weapon, yes. As for stacking DEX, the sad thing about RDM melee gear is that it is nearly impossible for us to do that in any respectable amount, this is our best CDC set without Mythic & AM3 up. (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/260965) If we had better gear I would agree that CDC would be our better option, and in all honesty with Mythic+AM3 it is, but unless I am wrong right now with Excalibur our best WS is Req on low defense targets and KoR on high defense targets thanks to its STR mod, once CDC is usable on Excalibur things may change to allow CDC on high defense mobs, not exactly sure about that one.

[Return1]

Well, first of all, you can spreadsheet properly unless you've found Murgleis's stats already or am I missing something.

You should probably be single wielding for more ODD and added proc, WAR for TP Fencer, Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, DA. KotR should beat Death Blossom in every conceivable situation as it gets a higher Weapon Skill +% and the Huge ACC bonus on first hits favors Single hit WSes.

On anything with a respectable hit rate, CDC should pull ahead. Your crit rate should be decent (>40%). The relatively massive boost to a RDM's pDIF would be hard to beat on anything that lasts a while.

So to sum it up. In any situation, Death Blossom is not your best WS. For Murg to even be mentioned you have be doing 1 300TP DB instead of 3 superior WSs to trigger AM. Murg's stats are currently undefined but known to be inferior.

[Glamdring]

I honestly don't think may will bitch if you are DW 2 fully upgraded relics. A few jealousy whines, sure, but if you did a full relic and a full magian, go for it.

Now, a legitimate bitch would be a rune or a geo who can't DW a relic, a mythic or an empy because they can't use ANY of them... and there is no "give it time", that's just BS. they had the time to throw rune on a Lockheart in time for the expansion, they had to know there would be 99 runes the day of the expansion, but they can't add us to end game weapons? to quote South Park, "Shenanigans!"

[Mayoyama]

Thread got a little derailed (rather rdm heavy) lol...

But regardless, I strongly feel that with the way SE is headed with SoA... several R/M/E will be left behind, even after upgrades and therefore should be able to be used in the offhand for the stats without restrictions, in the exact same empys do currently (up to +20 stat).

As for allowing the weaponskill, I believe it has something to do with the spagetti code that makes allowing ws from offhand difficult (and complicated when people dualwield 2 diff weps like sword and dagger). Moreover, with the suggestion of unlocking empy ws through WoE coin weps, that would only leave relic ws, which 9 times out of 10 pale in comparison to any other ws and are generally only used for aftermath (if at all).