Temper (A request)

[Thorbean]

Hello, could we possibly have temper grant a 1% attack boost per 25 enhancing skill and 1% gear haste per 100 skill? Even create a new RDM only spell with attack/gear haste effect (magic haste if you like, I'll take whatever we can get).

Seems like RDM is missing on a lot of the light melee gear (Athos's, Toci's, Thaumas, Manibozho etc.). If we can't have decent melee gear, at least throw us a bone with a spell or something...

Ps. Fencer would be nice too.

[Duelle]

While I agree with the first part of your post, do keep in mind that we have a notable casting load when self-buffing. I wouldn't want us getting even more stuff to spend time casting on ourselves without the ability to combine buffs to be cast at the same time or the ability to Renew buff durations.

[Thorbean]

I thought composure took most of the pain out of buffing. BLU is my main job though, so I'm used to constantly refreshing buffs every 90 sec to 3 min.

[Duelle]

I thought composure took most of the pain out of buffing. BLU is my main job though, so I'm used to constantly refreshing buffs every 90 sec to 3 min.At most you're doing refresh and haste. A Red Mage has to at the least Haste, Enspell, and Temper. If we're in range of AoE then we add Phalanx. It's a good chunk of time lost just casting spells on ourselves. All composure did was slightly increase spell durations, but once everything falls off we once again lose time recasting stuff.

[Thorbean]

Refresh, Haste, Triumphant Roar, Magic barrier, Saline coat, Occultation, Cocoon, Regeneration, Orcish counterstance (if that floats your boat). half of those have 90 sec or less duration. /RDM is a common sub for survival/longevity too so add in barspells/barstatus/phalanx/stoneskin/icespikes.
We don't have them all up at once, but the extremely short duration hurts alot more than composured buffs do.
I don't think 1 more spell every ~10 min is gonna hurt much.

The last thing we need is:

"We looked in to adding another spell that enhances the melee capabilities of Red Mage, but felt players would not enoy having another spell to cast. There are no plans for adjustments to the spell "Temper" at this time."

Like I said, it'd be great if it was added to temper, but I certainly wouldn't complain if it was added in the form of a new haste/attack% spell. I'm simply offering an alternative means of implementation, if they felt adding haste + attack + DA to 1 spell would be too much. They could have changed Raise III to behave like Arise, but they added a new spell for it, so they can do the whole "Look new spells!!!" thing in the patch notes.

[Duelle]

Refresh, Haste, Triumphant Roar, Magic barrier, Saline coat, Occultation, Cocoon, Regeneration, Orcish counterstance (if that floats your boat).If I had known you wanted to go that way I would have said "Refresh, Regen, Haste, Gain-STR/DEX, Phalanx, Spikes, Temper, Enspell, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil+Barspells". :O


We don't have them all up at once, but the extremely short duration hurts alot more than composured buffs do.You also have a LOT of damage built-in to compensate, which is something we sorely lack between WS and elemental spells we need an entirely different set of gear for. If we're expected to make up for that lack of burst with sustained damage, then we need more melee uptime, and cutting down on time spent rebuffing contributes towards that goal.

As for the SE quote, that was a cheap way for them to worm out of the logical progression of that statement, which ideally would be "as such, our adjustments will be made to the RDM job itself via job abilities/traits instead of adding such a spell".


Like I said, it'd be great if it was added to temper, but I certainly wouldn't complain if it was added in the form of a new haste/attack% spell. I'm simply offering an alternative means of implementation, if they felt adding haste + attack + DA to 1 spell would be too much. They could have changed Raise III to behave like Arise, but they added a new spell for it, so they can do the whole "Look new spells!!!" thing in the patch notes.Which is fine and I appreciate your (and any) input from people willing to think up stuff for the job over insulting the melee camp or simply ignoring posts related to RDM.

[Thorbean]

If I had known you wanted to go that way I would have said "Refresh, Regen, Haste, Gain-STR/DEX, Phalanx, Spikes, Temper, Enspell, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil+Barspells". :O


All of those last between 10 and 15 min when composured.
Having to spend an extra 15 sec prebuffing is not the reason they are behind in the melee department.

The reason BLU is better at melee is they have:
1: The gear
2: Dual Wield 3 + an attack boost without the need of a sub

RDM has:
1: very little melee gear
2: DW3 from sub OR an attack boost from sub.

[Duelle]

All of those last between 10 and 15 min when composured.
Having to spend an extra 15 sec prebuffing is not the reason they are behind in the melee department.Swing timer reset + lost melee uptime + no procs from enspells due to not meleeing + no TP building due to no meleeing are part of the reason we are behind. Our nukes being completely separate from our melee model is also part of that, though that's a discussion for another day.

Yes, lack of melee gear is also part of it. Lack of dual wield as well (though I've yet to device a way to justify RDM ever getting dual wield).

Not sure why you're downplaying the spellcast load, though. All I'm saying is that while it would be nice, we do already have a number of things to cast on ourselves, and those should be made easier to set up or upkeep before we want to add any spells. The alternative would be, as mentioned in my previous post, to add something by way of job traits or job abilities to RDM.

[Damane]

Hello, could we possibly have temper grant a 1% attack boost per 25 enhancing skill and 1% gear haste per 100 skill? Even create a new RDM only spell with attack/gear haste effect (magic haste if you like, I'll take whatever we can get).

Seems like RDM is missing on a lot of the light melee gear (Athos's, Toci's, Thaumas, Manibozho etc.). If we can't have decent melee gear, at least throw us a bone with a spell or something...

Ps. Fencer would be nice too.

Dear lord, its called Red MAGE

can we have people stop asking for melee adjustments and actually return back to SE and have them finally FIX the mage part of the job, that is actually the MAJOR part of it instead of focusing on some melee gimmicks.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, lack of melee gear is also part of it. Lack of dual wield as well (though I've yet to device a way to justify RDM ever getting dual wield).I like the idea of mainhanding a sword and offhanding a dagger as a RDM only version of Dual Wield, and its not just because Excalibur/Mandau is the best DW combo either, but because it actually sounds awesome.

[Tassidaru]

Dear lord, its called Red MAGE

can we have people stop asking for melee adjustments and actually return back to SE and have them finally FIX the mage part of the job, that is actually the MAJOR part of it instead of focusing on some melee gimmicks.

hmm...yes red MAGE...kinda like blue MAGE...yeah the MAGE argument has about as much value as a Ninja in the backline...
but lets talk about Rdm mage side... lots of support for healing and enhancing...hell i have a 500 enhancing build with only 7 pieces of gear, good variety for MAB...only job that can cap fastcast... so the issue cant be gear...spells then? new enfeebles? maybe...but then again what would be a good one? rehashes of ninjutsu? for reduced mob tp gain? cuz like break, anything for plauge, zombie, doom, amnesia, etc would be nerfed down so much as to not be even worth buying the scroll. So...maybe new tiers/updates for old ones? cure 5, regen 3, t5 nukes, raise 2, reraise not gonna happen...ever. para 3, slow 3? maybe but odds are if it ever happens it would be in a new merit list..so no holding your breath. updates to stoneskin and phalanx? that i really want to see. but SE has shown theyd rather give stoneskin gear then a new spell or adjust the current spell. and if there was a new phalanx it would probably be pld ory. blink 2 maybe? no... if it happened, we'd expect Occulation and get Zephyr Mantle. but even with all that...RDM mage side is still potent...just not in the eyes of the community at large... or maybe the issue is the limitations on buff targets/ AOEable spells...well that issue has been around since 75, and most likely never ever ever get addressed.

On another note! i do recommend we stop coming up with ideas to fix rdm, both mage and dd sides. because all we are doing is feeding job ideas to SE...if you dig enough, you can find threads at Alla and BG before WoTG where RDMs suggested tp based spells/abilities in the ddrdm threads and stances in the magerdm threads. and then we got DNC and SCH... here on the official forums, well before SOA was ever announced ideas for new enspells and aura spells were tossed around and...BAM RUN and GEO...yeah...the ganking of rdm ideas for other jobs is getting old SE...

[Duelle]

I do recommend we stop coming up with ideas to fix rdm, both mage and dd sides. Because all we are doing is feeding job ideas to SE. If you dig enough, you can find threads at Alla and BG before WoTG where RDMs suggested tp based spells/abilities in the dd rdm threads and stances in the mage rdm threads, and then we got DNC and SCH. Here on the official forums, well before SOA was ever announced ideas for new enspells and aura spells were tossed around and BAM RUN and GEO. Yeah, the ganking of rdm ideas for other jobs is getting old SE.There's little to no developer dialogue as far as direction for our job, which is pretty much why I would disagree with the notion of not giving ideas. And I mean REAL developer dialogue, not mistranslated job manifestos that say one thing in Japanese but get twisted when translated to English or sidestepping RDM-related questions in the name of "balance".

[Demon6324236]

So...maybe new tiers/updates for old ones? cure 5, regen 3, t5 nukes, raise 2, reraise not gonna happen...ever.Slight note, RDM does get Raise II.

[Damane]

hmm...yes red MAGE...kinda like blue MAGE...yeah the MAGE argument has about as much value as a Ninja in the backline...
but lets talk about Rdm mage side... lots of support for healing and enhancing...hell i have a 500 enhancing build with only 7 pieces of gear, good variety for MAB...only job that can cap fastcast... so the issue cant be gear...spells then? new enfeebles? maybe...but then again what would be a good one? rehashes of ninjutsu? for reduced mob tp gain? cuz like break, anything for plauge, zombie, doom, amnesia, etc would be nerfed down so much as to not be even worth buying the scroll. So...maybe new tiers/updates for old ones? cure 5, regen 3, t5 nukes, raise 2, reraise not gonna happen...ever. para 3, slow 3? maybe but odds are if it ever happens it would be in a new merit list..so no holding your breath. updates to stoneskin and phalanx? that i really want to see. but SE has shown theyd rather give stoneskin gear then a new spell or adjust the current spell. and if there was a new phalanx it would probably be pld ory. blink 2 maybe? no... if it happened, we'd expect Occulation and get Zephyr Mantle. but even with all that...RDM mage side is still potent...just not in the eyes of the community at large... or maybe the issue is the limitations on buff targets/ AOEable spells...well that issue has been around since 75, and most likely never ever ever get addressed.

On another note! i do recommend we stop coming up with ideas to fix rdm, both mage and dd sides. because all we are doing is feeding job ideas to SE...if you dig enough, you can find threads at Alla and BG before WoTG where RDMs suggested tp based spells/abilities in the ddrdm threads and stances in the magerdm threads. and then we got DNC and SCH... here on the official forums, well before SOA was ever announced ideas for new enspells and aura spells were tossed around and...BAM RUN and GEO...yeah...the ganking of rdm ideas for other jobs is getting old SE...


RDM can be fixed and brought up to par to the other mages, I am not saying its totally useless, it has its uses but they are diminished alot compared to other Jobs, here is an example how:

Merit 2 category:
- Demolish merit 2 category
- Give access to paralyze II, blind II, slow II, dia III, bio III, phalanx II via scrolls
- Replace merit 2 category with substantial buff choices to those 6 spells
- Replace current Phalanx II calculations with a different one that makes it substantionally stronger then phalanx I with capped merits and capped enhancing skill.
Goal of this change: Strengthening the variety of enfeeb spells and buff spells of a RDM.

Magic Skill:
-Changing of Divine magic skill from E to C+
-Changing of Dark magic skill from E to C+
-Changing of Enhancing magic skill from B+ to A+
Goal of this change: Strenghening the role of a rdm on various magic categorys without the need of relying totally on a SJ to do so.

Changes to Spells:
-The following spells will be castable on PT members:
Bar-line spell, Gain-line spell, Phalanx, Temper***, Enspell I + II
-The following spell will be added to the repertoire of RDMs:
Fasten***: Reduces Casting and Recast time of magic by 20% (with capped 500 enhancing magic spells) on the target
Duration: 5 min
Recast: 20 sec

Goal of this change: more versatility on SJ choices for RDM, better Party enhancing abilitys without relying on a SJ etc.


***in addtion to those changes and to bring the WHM and SCH in line the following changes will be done:
-WHM: additon of the spell Haste II
-SCH: change of the spell adloqium to give 1 TP/tic Regain for every 100 enhancing magic skill, capping out at 5TP/tic regain at 500
Goal of this changes: balancing the mages out and bringn some variety on the table.


With all those changes you are looking at 3 class 1 mages that can support and heal with different mechanics and strenghts:
RDM: strong single target buffing, good healign capabilitys with unique buffs that can add 20% DA (Temper) to PT members or 20% Fast cast/recast to magic users, strong battery (almost never runs out of MP)

WHM: strong AoE buffs (gain spells, bar etc), superior healign capabilitys, unquie buff: haste II for faster attacking

SCH: very good healing capabilitys, strong AoE single target capabilitys (somewhat limited with stratagems), Very dynamic healer and buffer with Regen V/Adloqium for wandering/dynamic pts. strong battery, good nukeing
limited alot to stratagems.


There RDM fixed in a nutshell ¬.¬

In other words depending on your PT setup:
at capped haste situation and where WHM healing isnt asolutly a must have a RDM will benefit a PT more because of Temper as a buff, besides the ability to buff the PTs defense with an new enhanced phalanx II.

In situations where your magical haste isnt capped and where you need superior healign due to lots of Aoe moves, or Zombie status effects etc. a WHM will come more in handy then a RDM or a SCH

In situations where your PT is moveing around alot from one mob to the other and where crowd control/or nukeing is demanded occasionally a SCH comes in handy more then RDM or WHM (RNG PTs are a candidate fro this)

[Demon6324236]

So shove RDM into the back lines where it can cycle Temper and Haste on a party, no thanks.

[Tassidaru]

If you want to stand back and cycle buffs go level BRD.

[Damane]

If you want to stand back and cycle buffs go level BRD.

if you want to stand on the front go lvl a melee job. if you want a melee/mage hybrid job go lvl BLU.

RDM is built as a backline job, from the grounds up (it has some frontline capabilitys but they are weak compared to real jobs on the frontline)

BLU is built as a frontline job, from teh grounds up (it has some backline capabilitys but they are weak compared to real jobs that are on the backline)


You would need WAY more changes to make RDM even competitiv on the frontline. You can however easier fix the backline flaws of the RDM. I am just trying to help, if the RDM community wants to go this melee route down like the last 5 years so be it (look where it got you). Castrate yourself and neglect your job from ever being very usefull again in any spot of the ally/PT.

hell even SMN has more uses atm then RDM and we all know how shitty SMN is.

[Demon6324236]

You would need WAY more changes to make RDM even competitiv on the frontline.Put RDM on the light DD gear that BLU gets, give RDM a spell, Brave, self cast only with +20% Attack/Accuracy or a trait for Dual Wield that only works while main-handing a sword and off-handing a dagger. RDM melee is instantly fixed.

[Demon6324236]

Castrate yourself and neglect your job from ever being very usefull again in any spot of the ally/PT.If my use in a party is cycling a few buffs while throwing out a couple cures or nukes here and there then I would rather go a different job, I reserve that duty to a SCH, as it is built for it better than RDM is in my opinion as it is in fact a fully mage job with almost no melee qualities. RDM on the other hand should have some front line use, otherwise it becomes a SCH clone with slight alterations in a few features, not the job I care to play.

[Numquam]

I don't get why people want RDM to melee? I mean, it is just another backline job. If anything, I think they need to boost RUN's offensive capabilities more. Now that I think about it they should add Temper to RUN. THat would make more sense.

[Tassidaru]

That's the point, its NOT just another backline job...it never was. at 75, (when RDM still could use competitive dd gear) a good RDM could keep up with the light DDs like Thf and DNC, and if they put out real effort could (rather quickly at times) pull hate from plds. Hell, at 75 we were the only NM Soloist of any note. and not because we could kite...personally at 75 i face tanked/soloed all the base avatars and Ash Dragon. since then, we have slowly slid from a competitive light dd to the bottom of the dmg barrel.And SE has done basically nothing to stem this backslide... since lvl 80 SE has just about dropped support for DDRDM. but what really pisses me off is that SE refuses to at least decide what they want from RDM... like in gear, no Athos, no Thaumas, yet we can use Kudzu. this lackluster half-***ed gear selection is retarded. Either let us use light armor, or just strip Dagger and sword skill. Honestly I'd be happy either way.

[Demon6324236]

I don't get why people want RDM to melee? I mean, it is just another backline job.But its not, if you take away RDM's melee power you get a SCH who has Refresh instead of Sublimation, Enfeebling, weaker heals, weaker nukes, some self buffs, less unique party buffs(Phalanx II), and Convert. The sad part is RDM does not really even have all of that compared to SCH because SCH's best sub is RDM, meaning it takes away RDM's only unique party buff because of Accession, Convert, and all but 2 non-merit Enfeebling spells. So RDM's key differences in that case become... Refresh, weaker healing, weaker nukes, some self buffs, merit Enfeebling, Addle, Gravity II, and no JAs that really help its magic besides composure which is great but beaten on other players even with all +duration gear when you count in SCH's Perpetuance. In essence even if we sub SCH we gain a couple spells and their Arts but lack real stratagem use which means we are still weaker than SCH is just about every possible way.

Making us a back line job only would leave us as just a gimp version of SCH, and any attempt to make our magic side stronger is basically stepping on SCH's toes unless its via Enhancing or Enfeebling. Enfeebling is great except if its of any great use like Amnesia or such it will become impossible to land, look at the new NMs and Silence for example, it is possible to land Silence on them, I have done it, but even if you do, even with Elemental seal it lasts about 5~10 seconds and wears instantly, Amnesia would do the same, so the spell is gimped. Enhancing magic is either going to be not enough to invite the job or its going to do nothing but bring back buff cycling, we can not hit 500 Enhancing Magic skill and have full duration gear, the best we can do it 2 pieces of AF3+2 with duration Feet & Back, so we still are cycling it quite a bit.

I myself do not think that buffing our magic side is needed, I think we have exactly what we need for it, we have the best nuking gear, a good tier trait for it, best recast times, T4s, I think were going good on that, and healing, well you can cap Cure Potency with just 5 pieces of gear, 7 if you lack Iaso Head, and none of it includes your weapon, which effects the next part. Melee is in need of assistance, while we can cure well, and we can nuke well, our melee is very sub-par because we are left off of almost any gear of real use for it which drags us down a ton.

[Rooj]

Most of these people just want to melee on the RDM for attention (*cough* ^ *cough*). I guarantee you if RDM melee were to get considerably buffed, these people would stop playing RDM and go play PUP or some other job that people don't want in their party.
Though honestly it's always like this in every game with the jack of all trades classes, the people that play them don't appreciate all of the parts of their class and therefore claim to be underpowered, never understanding the reason their class doesn't get 'fixed' is because gameplay balance is determined by 'pros' (AKA the people who are actually good [the best] at the game). People knew what they were getting into when they decided to play a jack of all trades class (never being the best at anything), yet you continually see posts asking for RDM to be "as good at melee as a WAR or MNK" or "as good at nuking as a BLM."

It's astounding. Really.

[Demon6324236]

Most of these people just want to melee on the RDM for attention (*cough* ^ *cough*). I guarantee you if RDM melee were to get considerably buffed, these people would stop playing RDM and go play PUP or some other job that people don't want in their party.You don't know me or my personality or why I play the job, I play RDM because I like the job, I have put a lot of work into the job, and I can show you all of that work if you really want me to.


yet you continually see posts asking for RDM to be "as good at melee as a WAR or MNK" or "as good at nuking as a BLM."Show me one post where anyone has ever asked that, in the entirety of this forum.


It's astounding. Really.How ignorant people are in their posts? I agree, it is astounding.

[Duelle]

if you want to stand on the front go lvl a melee job.And if you want to curebot your way to success go level WHM. If you want to spam nukes go level BLM.

if you want a melee/mage hybrid job go lvl BLU.Why settle for a cheap imitation when the original and genuine article can be fixed to meet the standard?

personally at 75 i face tanked/soloed all the base avatars and Ash DragonThat's not saying much, seeing that the only thing that made Avatar face-tanking possible was Utsusemi and RDM's access to fast cast.

And SE has done basically nothing to stem this backslide. since lvl 80 SE has just about dropped support for DDRDM, but what really pisses me off is that SE refuses to at least decide what they want from RDM. like in gear, no Athos, no Thaumas, yet we can use Kudzu. this lackluster half-***ed gear selection is retarded. Either let us use light armor, or just strip Dagger and sword skill. Honestly I'd be happy either way.That would at least put the issue to rest.

I'd tack on the dev's tendency of putting RDM melee pieces in places that are entirely unreasonable for the average player. I'm still annoyed at the fleuret from Abyssea dropping from the most annoying of the zone bosses as opposed to a "popular" boss like Rani. Kudzu coming from Voidwatch (already an event with a crappy reward system), and on a boss with a bad gimmick to boot. Crap like the Dux set (because we need -PDT and +Enmity...) also fall in this category and compliment your complaints.


People knew what they were getting into when they decided to play a jack of all trades classI'll paste something I said a while back on this very topic:


For the longest time, hybrids/jack of all trades would get shafted into mundane roles that ended up being "required" yet very unpopular. It was common to draw in people using aesthetics and class concepts (pimp-hat-wearing magic fencer in the case of RDM, gambling pirate with a gun in the case of COR), only to find out by level cap that your role in endgame was not what you signed up for. Incidentally, some would just put up with that because they'd already invested time on the character and found some comfort in the fact their "role" was unpopular enough that they would not wait as long for a group compared to classes that filled other roles. Others chose to voice their displeasure at being bait-and-switched. The end-result has been 50-50, with some developers choosing to listen to their players and try to make them happy while others choose to stay in their castle in the clouds.This was taken from a discussion on hybrid design after someone started spazzing over the mythical hybrid apocalypse where hybrids being competent at their multiple roles somehow made the universe explode and force all to hide their kids and their wives.

[Rooj]

You don't know me or my personality or why I play the job

Yes, it's hard to know anything about someone who has over 3,000 posts. Good grief.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, it's hard to know anything about someone who has over 3,000 posts. Good grief.Yeah, cause those 3,000 posts explain why I play my job. Thankfully in my 3,000 posts I made relevant posts rather than making baseless statements like...
Most of these people just want to melee on the RDM for attention (*cough* ^ *cough*). I guarantee you if RDM melee were to get considerably buffed, these people would stop playing RDM and go play PUP or some other job that people don't want in their party.

[Rooj]

If even ONE of the ridiculous changes you suggest ever get implemented to RDM, players like myself will be so overpowered there won't even be a reason for me to play with other people.

Not quite sure what you're doing wrong when you play.

[Demon6324236]

If even ONE of the ridiculous changes you suggest ever get implemented to RDM, players like myself will be so overpowered there won't even be a reason for me to play with other people.

Not quite sure what you're doing wrong when you play.Wrong? That's funny, because by most people I know or have ever talked to I am regarded as one of the best RDMs on Phoenix, and have been invited to the top linkshells for that reason, I am doing nothing wrong. The jobs melee damage is simply behind, while its magic side is right where it should be, go pick up a DPS sheet for any job (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0A0wGYYRRdaZjdlNTdkNTEtMDMyYy00OTVmLWI4N2ItNDMwMDI1N2VkYWZk/edit?hl=en&pli=1&docId=0B0A0wGYYRRdaOGY0MDFkYjktYjNlMi00MmE1LWI3OTgtOWE4Y2YzODJjMmUy) really, put them in optimum gear, then put RDM in optimum gear, you can see the DPS differences easily, and how far behind we are from even the weakest of jobs. Here are some general near optimum sets for you to throw in there real quick for RDM...

TP (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/260962)
Exca/Mand/----/Astr
Zelu/Ranc/Brut/Supp
Kudz/Feas/Raja/Mars
Athe/Pyae/Calm/Ghad

TP-Acc (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/276182)
Exca/Bura/----/Astr
Bend/Ranc/Brut/Supp
Shed/Breg/Raja/Mars
Leta/Dyna/Rube/Ghad

KoR (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/262408)
Exca/Mand/----/Cher
Mori/Lite/Brut/Vulc
Mori/Heaf/Stri/Aqua
Athe/Pros/Rube/Feas

Req (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/282393)
Exca/Mand/----/Orei
Naht/Soil/Brut/Moon
Mori/Bokw/Raja/Aqua
Athe/Soil/Rube/Feas

Let me know if you can get this to come close (around 10% or so) to any jobs optimum DD sets that are posted on the AH.com Forums (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/forum/83/jobs/), inside of their own respective sheets. I will be more than glad if you succeed, if you fail, then you are incorrect in stating RDM would be overpowered with my adjustments, because they are just as easy to test in those sheets and come out with RDM being stronger, but not so much so that its game breaking.

[Rooj]

Oh, so what's REALLY going on here is that you just want to be overpowered, that is if you are in fact "the best Red Mage on Phoenix."

You will not, and should not, ever be able to reach even 75% of the melee capability of any melee based job. Please stop trying, you are wasting your time, and how on earth you don't even KNOW you're wasting your time AND WHY is beyond me.

Just another typical MMOer, who wants to be king of the world. You're such a common occurrence these days.
http://michaelhutchenceandme.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/titanic-im-king-of-the-world.jpg

[Demon6324236]

Oh, so what's REALLY going on here is that you just want to be overpoweredNo, I want all parts of my job to be balanced in a way of which they can be used well. Look at our healing, we are in 3rd place, WHM is 1st, then SCH, then RDM, and lastly PLD, if you go only by standard healing magic, now look at nuking, its been BLM in 1st, then SCH, then RDM, and lastly DRK, again, we are 3rd. If there are 3 ratings to Physical DDing it would be Heavy DDs, then Light DDs, then Hybrids, and lastly Mages. We are again, in 3rd, but we are not caught up to where we should be, see, other hybrid jobs are something like BLU, or even NIN, but we are not at that level, or even close to it, BLU and NIN both smash our DPS in optimum gear, and even with the changes I ask for they would still beat us, we would be the lowest in our 3rd place tier basically, we would just suck a lot less, we would be within about 10% of those two jobs in DPS, rather than now when we are about 20~25% lower in optimum gear.

[Rooj]

rather than now when we are about 20~25% lower in optimum gear.

and?

Thanks for proving my statement true.

[Demon6324236]

and?

Thanks for proving my statement true.So RDM being 20~25% weaker than other hybrid jobs is balance, but RDM being 10% below other hybrid jobs is broken and overpowered?

[Duelle]

So RDM being 20~25% weaker than other hybrid jobs is balance, but RDM being 10% below other hybrid jobs is broken and overpowered?Rooj sounds too much like the trolls that invaded the original melee thread a while back. Tread with caution, Demon.

[Rustic]

So shove RDM into the back lines where it can cycle Temper and Haste on a party, no thanks.

Implying we didn't used to do this with Refresh and Haste in meritpos and such?

Front, back, sideways- just define where we're useful in the end and give us the tools to do things.

[Demon6324236]

Implying we didn't used to do this with Refresh and Haste in meritpos and such?No, implying I knew where we came from and do not want to go back to it because it was terrible...

[Tassidaru]

...you know... i might dream of RDM being a truly competitive dd, but in the end, all i want is to be able to do enough dmg that people don't complain that I'm just feeding the mob tp. And i really would like to be able to get decent dd gear without running to the ends of the earth to get it. I do that enough for corsair as it is.

[Demon6324236]

...you know... i might dream of RDM being a truly competitive dd, but in the end, all i want is to be able to do enough dmg that people don't complain that I'm just feeding the mob tp. And i really would like to be able to get decent dd gear without running to the ends of the earth to get it.Basically how I feel, that, and not having to explain to every person who sees me on RDM that my gear is near optimum for TPing, even though it looks like I randomly just grabbed some gear and threw it on in a rush because I could not stop at the Porter for my real gear...

[Damane]

No, implying I knew where we came from and do not want to go back to it because it was terrible...

1. Go to your moghouse
2. Pick the button change job
3. Pick any job that isnt RDM
----> fixed for you

If you really think RDM will be adjusted in the melee department that way that it can compete with the top-dog Melees, you are delusional and frankly know nothing about balance. There is a reason why BLU can compete with them and RDM cant.
BLU has to sacrifice alot of its spellslots to get the traits it needs and to set the SJ it needs to come close to them, mostly by sacrificing alot of their self cure/debuff/buff capabilitys.
Do you really think RDM would get a free pass to top-tier melee dmg without it getting stomped somewhere? you would need to lock out half of RDMs spells for that to happen, or otherwise you are looking at a melee&tank that can keep himself alive just fine.
Grow up and think about it logically: the only way to fix RDM would be to focus on its backline capabilitys like buffing/debuffing/curing and fixing that. Because that is the only way to go for the Job without breaking it.

[Demon6324236]

1. Go to your moghouse
2. Pick the button change job
3. Pick any job that isnt RDM
----> fixed for youOh I see, I should play another job rather than asking for my job to be fixed.


If you really think RDM will be adjusted in the melee department that way that it can compete with the top-dog Melees, you are delusional and frankly know nothing about balance. There is a reason why BLU can compete with them and RDM cant.Here we go with the top again, when in the hell did I ask for RDM to be a competitor with the top DDs in the game? Show me where I asked for that once! I want to see it. I have asked for us to fit in with lighter DDs better, not surpass them, but come close enough that our DD power is not seen as a waste of time or space, so we can actually use that side of the job. I really hate when people put words in my posts, and you just did, as I said, not asking for top, or near top, I just want to be less shit.


BLU has to sacrifice alot of its spellslots to get the traits it needs and to set the SJ it needs to come close to them, mostly by sacrificing alot of their self cure/debuff/buff capabilitys.
Do you really think RDM would get a free pass to top-tier melee dmg without it getting stomped somewhere? you would need to lock out half of RDMs spells for that to happen, or otherwise you are looking at a melee&tank that can keep himself alive just fine.Even if you give RDM access to the same gear as BLU, BLU would be stronger because of those spells and traits, BLU has buff spells for offence as well as powerful enfeebling type spells as well as types of spells RDM has no access to natively at all, like quick stuns, or a cure with Attack bonus on it.


Grow up and think about it logicallyI have, I also used sheets to determine the effect this would have on the jobs damage, and it would still be weaker than many other jobs, as I said before, I aim to be in a 3rd place position of Hybrid jobs, above mage jobs and below real Light DDs and Heavy DDs, where we belong, but are not at currently, we are to far behind right now, this gear would put us where we should be at, a slight bonus from a unique DW trait or Brave would go a long way as well.


the only way to fix RDM would be to focus on its backline capabilitys like buffing/debuffing/curing and fixing that. Because that is the only way to go for the Job without breaking it.Boom, your normal statement that makes no sense because by doing that you do nothing but again, make us a slightly altered SCH, a worthless copy of another job. I explained this earlier this thread I think if you care to go read it, SCH has almost everything better in a full mage department than RDM does and if you enhance RDM to be the same you are doing nothing but making it a copy with some slight alterations. Out magic is fine besides needing some new unique spells in the places where we specialize, our melee has fallen behind, what sets RDM apart from any other job, we are the only mage with access to both sides of magic while having a melee side as well, flaw is that we fail to melee well enough to matter. Fix the melee part and we have a unique ability, ignore it and work on magic and we become nothing but an alternate SCH.

[Damane]

Oh I see, I should play another job rather than asking for my job to be fixed.

Here we go with the top again, when in the hell did I ask for RDM to be a competitor with the top DDs in the game? Show me where I asked for that once! I want to see it. I have asked for us to fit in with lighter DDs better, not surpass them, but come close enough that our DD power is not seen as a waste of time or space, so we can actually use that side of the job. I really hate when people put words in my posts, and you just did, as I said, not asking for top, or near top, I just want to be less shit.

Even if you give RDM access to the same gear as BLU, BLU would be stronger because of those spells and traits, BLU has buff spells for offence as well as powerful enfeebling type spells as well as types of spells RDM has no access to natively at all, like quick stuns, or a cure with Attack bonus on it.

I have, I also used sheets to determine the effect this would have on the jobs damage, and it would still be weaker than many other jobs, as I said before, I aim to be in a 3rd place position of Hybrid jobs, above mage jobs and below real Light DDs and Heavy DDs, where we belong, but are not at currently, we are to far behind right now, this gear would put us where we should be at, a slight bonus from a unique DW trait or Brave would go a long way as well.

Boom, your normal statement that makes no sense because by doing that you do nothing but again, make us a slightly altered SCH, a worthless copy of another job. I explained this earlier this thread I think if you care to go read it, SCH has almost everything better in a full mage department than RDM does and if you enhance RDM to be the same you are doing nothing but making it a copy with some slight alterations. Out magic is fine besides needing some new unique spells in the places where we specialize, our melee has fallen behind, what sets RDM apart from any other job, we are the only mage with access to both sides of magic while having a melee side as well, flaw is that we fail to melee well enough to matter. Fix the melee part and we have a unique ability, ignore it and work on magic and we become nothing but an alternate SCH.

In other words you want to remain RDM in the same place it is: useless. I allready described 2 pages ago how to fix rdm on the backline. Your suggestions makeing RDM be Light DD wont help the job at all, because we all know how many Light DDs get invited into stuff that requires an ally to kill... The only Light DD job that makes it into allys is THF, and thats not because of its DD capability.

[Duelle]

In other words you want to remain RDM in the same place it is: useless.As opposed to returning us to being cure/buff-bitch? Not much of an improvement.

[SpankWustler]

Red Mage is almost viable as a back-line job for alliance fights against stuff like Delve NMs. A few additions to Red Mage's enfeebling magic, enhancing magic, or both would push the job over the edge and make it a really worthwhile addition for those fights.

Red Mage can melee stuff in Dynamis/SalvageI-II/etc. just fine already, although it's never really the best choice. A few additions to Red Mage's melee abilities would make it perform better while engaged in places full of fodder monsters where a full-time back-line mage isn't even needed by small groups.

I don't see the reason that only one aspect or the other has to be improved.

Efficiently murdering stuff that second-string melee can effectively murder isn't as relevant as it was during the "farm Relic/Empyrean/Mythic materials" before Delve came out, but it's still extremely relevant compared to times before Dynamis and Salvage were farmed. Being able to help murder weak stuff more effectively wouldn't be a terrible selling point for a mage...as long as the mage itself has some use.

[Tassidaru]

BLU has to sacrifice alot of its spellslots to get the traits it needs and to set the SJ it needs to come close to them, mostly by sacrificing alot of their self cure/debuff/buff capabilitys.


Do you even play Blue mage? I mean really sit down, study it, solo shit, test it out? because at 99 i can set Auto refresh, Double Atk Atk bonus acc bonus DW 3 and skillchain bonus.. and with all that i have a ~cure 4, stun, low and high mp cost phydmg spells (including spells for self chain darkness, light and fragmentation) haste, AOE erase, refresh, and magical damage spells. add say /sch to that and im a powerful dd in "most" situations, and have very potent cures, or say i /war drop the DA and Atk bonus, allowing me to set magic dmg stoneskin, phalanx, regen, AOE sleep, Occulation. and my survivability raised dramatically. The think is most blue spells aren't really worth getting..only about 1/3 -1/2 of the total spell list is worth the effort. and now with good spells also setting good traits...i hope you get the idea. Blue mage's one major issue Blue magic attack, but i'm not going to try to explain it to you. Hopefully you will actually go do research before you make assumptions again.

[SpankWustler]

...add say /sch to that and im a powerful dd in "most" situations, and have very potent cures, or say i /war drop the DA...

Compared to the archetypal Blue Mage/Warrior that Damane was probably referring to, who has dedicated a huge chunk of his or her spell list to both Dual Wield III and Triple Attack, your melee damage is lower. Significantly lower? Not in the case of Warrior sub, but still enough of a difference that just using a different utility melee job might be superior.

Not that this is even relevant to the off-topic topic.

[saevel]

Guys their trolling you. I expect a post about them any moment now on the azure underwear media forum.

OF's been slow so they decided to stir up some sh!t for giggles. Every argument they made was made back in 2005 and refuted back then. Nothing is new.

[Duelle]

Guys their trolling you. I expect a post about them any moment now on the azure underwear media forum.

OF's been slow so they decided to stir up some sh!t for giggles. Every argument they made was made back in 2005 and refuted back then. Nothing is new.Have to admit, the arguments will continue until a finite resolution is reached (or all involved quit the game). Just the way things are.

[Tassidaru]

How about this...for once not a comparison blu vs rdm... another hybrid job. Just recently i was on cor for skirmish...and broke 7k wildfire in Rala waterways U. Thats the NM skirmish area. The rolls active were Tac. and Hunters. so no added mab. so... Cor Wildfire SoA skirmish 7k, RDM CDC abby ~2k. something is wrong.

[Demon6324236]

How about this...for once not a comparison blu vs rdm... another hybrid job. Just recently i was on cor for skirmish...and broke 7k wildfire in Rala waterways U. Thats the NM skirmish area. The rolls active were Tac. and Hunters. so no added mab. so... Cor Wildfire SoA skirmish 7k, RDM CDC abby ~2k. something is wrong.Not to be mean or anything, but, I agree, something is wrong if a RDM is only hitting 2k or under with CDC in Abyssea... my RDM uses mostly easy to pick up gear for CDC and I hit 3.5k average with 5k spikes here and there...

In either case, I get what you are saying and I agree, just wanted to make that remark real quick.

[Tassidaru]

Just in case some people thought i was just making up the wildfire damage in my last post, here a pic from my last set of skirmish runs. first section is from Rala Waterways U on a NM, the other is from Cirda Caverns U on a NQ.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/kingsesaw/OMGWTF.png?t=1372015597

[Demon6324236]

I would love to have WSs for RDM that could hit that high in best gear even if they are elemental WSs, the problem is that Sword has no such WS, and so far, they have shown no intent on adding more. Campaign WS is AoE which I hate, and idk if its at WF levels of awesomeness either, but if it is, who knows, that may just be the fix that would help RDM melee the most so far as WSs go.

[Tassidaru]

I definitely share a native hate for AoE ws. *flashback to the stupid dd who AoEed all the slept mobs in Dyna Xarc* but at least in most events, its an alliance vs. 1 or say skirmish with 6 on 2-4 at a time. so the drawbacks to AoEs arent nearly as deadly as they used to be