Why is there no Summoner path on the new Delve gear?

[Herby]

It's really puzzling why SE does this.

SMN always gets the short end of the stick on gear. We DON'T NEED MAB or M.ACC for us, we need it for our AVATAR! so why is there only 1 Headpiece and 1 Pole that's useful for us from the whole of Delve while other jobs get a full useful set?

I'll probably get some Answer like "It's working as Intended" and I don't wanna shoot the Messenger if that happens but I'm really upset about this! (not to mention delve is only accessible for a few % of ppl on servers coming tonight)

[Babekeke]

Once you get the pole, you'll be wanting melee gear for yourself anyway.

[Thundarian]

Got the pole. It is nice, but with the 20 min cap on Field NM fights I feel a bit like a liability when I can only get a max of about 26 BP's off. Not going to cut it as a DD for the harder fights, and no one is bringing summoners as a support buffer. Time to level a DD class for Delve it seems.

[Babekeke]

I'm just hoping that the new SP abilities are released soon.

[Herby]

I somehow doubt that the ability to use 7-8 BPs in succession every hour will get us any invites in a meaningful event :/ we need more fundamental changes although the new SP ability is certainly welcomed, it's at least a step in the right direction ^^

[SpankWustler]

If it makes you feel any better, the augment range feels very narrow compared to the huge range of magey things that mage jobs use. Summoner is just getting the shortest end of the already short mage-augment stick.

Or, maybe the end with cat poop on it. I'm not sure how these things work.

[Thundarian]

Yeah... why do I need get int + mind on the staff no matter what I do...

[Babekeke]

Yeah... why do I need get int + mind on the staff no matter what I do...

For Spirit Taker? ;p

[Thundarian]

For Spirit Taker? ;p

I'm not getting anywhere near any of the Delve NM's to use spirit taker! Picked up the SMN delve helm today. Kind of depressing to have the only 2 pieces a SMN can use while my friends are talking about grinding out plasma for all the earings / rings / other armor and such they need. Really there is like 1 and 1/2 pieces of summoner gear since the helm seems to have no reason for me to augment it assuming the augments are as listed.

[Camate]

Greetings,

To give you all a better idea of what we have planned for the grips we announced for summoner, you can think along the lines of what the newly added Alternator does for puppetmaster’s automaton. Also, there will not be grips specific to each avatar, so don't worry about clogging your inventory with one for each avatar!

[Hayward]

On behalf of all Summoners, I thank you!

[Cowardlybabooon]

For those who don't know, the animator gives +70 to all stats. And yeah to all those who bitched when they heard about the grips, maybe you could learn to give the development team a chance in the future?

[Sacia]

People complained because instead of addressing fundamental gameplay flaws the dev team saw fit to just add a new item. It doesnt matter what kind of stats the grips have, unless it can lower the hard-cap on my bloodpact timer it won't mean anything significant.

[Aezelas]

Greetings,

To give you all a better idea of what we have planned for the grips we announced for summoner, you can think along the lines of what the newly added Alternator does for puppetmaster’s automaton. Also, there will not be grips specific to each avatar, so don't worry about clogging your inventory with one for each avatar!

Hi, and thanks.
The fact that there won't be avatars' specific grips is good news, and kind of a relief.

But, what you're saying about grips' purpose is pretty much what we could expect, since it's been announced as a job's adjustment.
The reference to Alternator makes me think that grips will provide avatars a fix they should get innately.
I'm afraid we'll have to make choices, as it seems like the smn's multiple issues will be fixed by different grips.

And given those issues, i can't see gear swap macros solve everything.
But let's hope, and wait for the grips' effects to be listed.

[Dreamin]

OMG a community rep in here answering!!! Quick follow up question:

Any update as to when we might ever see the 2 promised Avatars from 2 years ago???

[Mokeil]

Thanks for the head's-up Camate. I, too, am glad to hear that we won't need to hunt down half a dozen different grips. All that remains to be seen now is the final product, and how you intend to implement it.




But, what you're saying about grips' purpose is pretty much what we could expect, since it's been announced as a job's adjustment.
The reference to Alternator makes me think that grips will provide avatars a fix they should get innately.
I'm afraid we'll have to make choices, as it seems like the smn's multiple issues will be fixed by different grips.

And given those issues, i can't see gear swap macros solve everything.
But let's hope, and wait for the grips' effects to be listed.

It seems to me that you - and many others - are saying that Avatars should be given across the board increases to just about everything. (If I'm reading that wrong, please let me know!) Other players, on the other hand, have to work their butts off to acquire gear in order to improve themselves. Why should Summoner get stronger pets just because?

Now, please, don't get me wrong. I definitely agree that there are issues that gear alone will not be able to fix - serious issues that do need to be addressed (preferably sooner rather than later). Things like our hard cap of 45 seconds on Blood Pacts, the incredibly lousy potency of most of our Wards, and the mess that is Avatar's favor come immediately to mind. These will require some serious alterations that gear just cannot effect.

However, increases to Avatar durability, attack, accuracy, etc? Those sound to me like exactly the sort of things that ought to addressed by gear.

[Aezelas]

Thanks for the head's-up Camate. I, too, am glad to hear that we won't need to hunt down half a dozen different grips. All that remains to be seen now is the final product, and how you intend to implement it.




It seems to me that you - and many others - are saying that Avatars should be given across the board increases to just about everything. (If I'm reading that wrong, please let me know!) Other players, on the other hand, have to work their butts off to acquire gear in order to improve themselves. Why should Summoner get stronger pets just because?

Now, please, don't get me wrong. I definitely agree that there are issues that gear alone will not be able to fix - serious issues that do need to be addressed (preferably sooner rather than later). Things like our hard cap of 45 seconds on Blood Pacts, the incredibly lousy potency of most of our Wards, and the mess that is Avatar's favor come immediately to mind. These will require some serious alterations that gear just cannot effect.

However, increases to Avatar durability, attack, accuracy, etc? Those sound to me like exactly the sort of things that ought to addressed by gear.

And it seems to me that you're making suppositions about others' statements.
I don't see where me and many others are asking that smn should be given everything.
I don't see where in my post i said i wanted more durability and accuracy for avatars.

You started you statement saying summoner should work their butts off just like other jobs, and then funnily enough agreed with what i was pointing: smn has issues that shouldn't be fixed by gear.

Sounds to me we're on the same boat.

[Mokeil]

Then I did, indeed, interpret your comments incorrectly, and I apologize.

Specifically, it was the following comment that made me think as I did:


The reference to Alternator makes me think that grips will provide avatars a fix they should get innately.


The bonuses from the alternator are exactly the sorts of things I feel we should be getting via gear. I read your comment to be taken as saying that those sorts of bonuses should be given to avatars, period.

The idea that Summoner's actual problems could be fixed via gear is so patently ridiculous that it's never even occurred to me that SE might try to do just that. Of course, after all these years I should probably have learned better than to assume things like that...

[Chimerawizard]

Greetings,

To give you all a better idea of what we have planned for the grips we announced for summoner, you can think along the lines of what the newly added Alternator does for puppetmaster’s automaton. Also, there will not be grips specific to each avatar, so don't worry about clogging your inventory with one for each avatar!

That's awesome to read, but you are still missing the atomos in the room, namely, SMN needs reviewed and fixed. Lots of methods mentioned all over the forums. Oh, also where is atomos? and that cat, I mean cait sith, where is that?

[Glamdring]

Also, there will not be grips specific to each avatar, so don't worry about clogging your inventory with one for each avatar!

as a bard yet to finish my relic/empy I can say THAT was the most important part of the whole notice there.

[Glamdring]

Then I did, indeed, interpret your comments incorrectly, and I apologize.

Specifically, it was the following comment that made me think as I did:


The bonuses from the alternator are exactly the sorts of things I feel we should be getting via gear. I read your comment to be taken as saying that those sorts of bonuses should be given to avatars, period.

The idea that Summoner's actual problems could be fixed via gear is so patently ridiculous that it's never even occurred to me that SE might try to do just that. Of course, after all these years I should probably have learned better than to assume things like that...

don't complain TOO much or your gear boosts may go the way of bst gear to get our lvl 99 thf pets naked 99 thf TH. yeah, that's right, I went there...

[Umisame]

I like grips idea, its good way to add more dmg to our avatars. Avatars dmg must be increased by equipment, and new grips will be like weapons for DD jobs. I know that summoner job should be fixed but at least this will be a good update for us. Not all is dark.

I want to test new grip now!

[Karbuncle]

Alternator does more than just +70 to all stats, IIRC there was a solid increase in acc/atk/macc/matk as well, not just from the STR/DEX/etc... I think there was talk it may also effect a bit more than that... But I don't recall the tests on it... Regardless, to the point.

If they plan on releasing grips for SMN That effect pets as amazingly as the grip for Automatons, Then I probably won't be too concerned with the future of SMN, if anything, it'll at least be a more solid Solo job when I'm bored and want to shattersoul stuff.

[Duelle]

People complained because instead of addressing fundamental gameplay flaws the dev team saw fit to just add a new item. It doesnt matter what kind of stats the grips have, unless it can lower the hard-cap on my bloodpact timer it won't mean anything significant.This. It would have been one thing for the devs to say "Avatars will scale with their Summoners' stats up to a point, determined by summoning magic skill and other relevant stats like MND/INT/Accuracy/Magic Accuracy. Summoning magic skill's contribution to avatar stats when summoned will also be adjusted". The grips would be icing on a change like that.

[Kombys]

i think paths for delve gear are limted to mages and DDs only, i dont seepath for smn, pet acc, pet mac acc or pet MAB, even for the gears bst can use, they didnt add anything, hope they fix that soon, i'd like to get some Pet MB on Bokwus Circlet: DEF:43 MP+100 Summoning magic skill +7 Avatar: Increases magic accuracy "Magic Atk. Bonus"+10
adding pet mab to this piece should becool but all you can do is
A: M.ACC
B: MAB
C: ACC (LOLACC)

[RAIST]

so much potential for adjusting pets just seems to be lost to SE. Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to what they add by way of grips. A bit upset though, after making additional staves to swap in to compensate for some shortcomings on SMN---a lot of time will have been wasted making them once they are replaced by a new grip. I am also a bit concerned about the method for attainment, which poses a whole other can of worms if it's a ridiculous method to get an item added to fix a job's native problems.

There is all that gear that we already have that boosts skills, or individual attributes like INT/MND and such that could be used as a scaling mechanism for pets to help bring them up to par with where they should be as a weapon of choice in comparison to the scaling of the weapons of choice for non-pet jobs. Let's face it, for some jobs the pets are their main contribution, and not the master (or at least they SHOULD be). Many pets are so far behind on key attributes....just bogggles the mind that SE is not seeing the need to balance that first and foremost.

[Chimerawizard]

i think paths for delve gear are limted to mages and DDs only, i dont seepath for smn, pet acc, pet mac acc or pet MAB, even for the gears bst can use, they didnt add anything, hope they fix that soon, i'd like to get some Pet MB on Bokwus Circlet: DEF:43 MP+100 Summoning magic skill +7 Avatar: Increases magic accuracy "Magic Atk. Bonus"+10
adding pet mab to this piece should becool but all you can do is
A: M.ACC
B: MAB
C: ACC (LOLACC)
I cant find where but I remember them saying three upgrade paths on gearsets before SoA came out so I doubt they'll fix in this go around. Hopefully in the next update they add 3 more delve gearsets with that in mind.

[Tannlore]

I cant find where but I remember them saying three upgrade paths on gearsets before SoA came out so I doubt they'll fix in this go around. Hopefully in the next update they add 3 more delve gearsets with that in mind.

I doubt this as well, but I really hope they do go over these augments and align them to work on our pets. Right now, Yaskomo's pole aside, there isn't anything augment wise on the Delve gear that works on avatars. As a smn, I wouldn't bother augmenting or working towards this gear. Yaskomo's is awesome, but the int and mnd + on path B is for the summoner. I wish it worked on the pet too.

[Chimerawizard]

@tannlore That sig. Is awesome!

[Tannlore]

@tannlore That sig. Is awesome!

Gracias. It was drawn by Kingfury here on the forums. Don't know if he's still taking commissions though. He did Karbuncle's also

[Garota]

Well, Manibozho includes PUP and Mikinaak includes DRG & BST, all of these are pet jobs as well but Delve augment paths don't include Pet: Acc nor Pet: Atk. These augments would be more beneficial to these other jobs though. I think attack and accuracy would also be good for SMN's physical bloodpacts depending on the target monster being fought. But yeah, there are currently 14 different paths available which include:

Atk, Acc, STR
Acc, Atk, DEX
Eva, Acc, AGI
R.Atk, R.Acc, AGI
R.Acc, R.Atk, AGI
MAB, INT, MND
M.Acc, MND, INT
MP, M.Acc, MAB
Pet: MAB, INT, MND
Pet: M.Acc, MND, INT
MP, Pet: M.Acc, Pet: MAB
HP, VIT, INT
MP, VIT, INT
HP, MP, M.Def

As ridiculous as it may seem, I just figure why not let us choose any of those 14 different augment paths to fit our playing needs. It'd be funny to see augment types all the way from A to N, maybe extend that to Z! Nevertheless, I do agree with the OP though, I think it'd be amazing to see this on all 5 pieces of my Bokwus gear.

[1]Pet: MAB+13
[2]INT+10
[3]MND+10
<Type:I/Rank:15/NextRP:0>

I really don't see what's wrong with allowing SMN to have a total of Pet: MAB+75 on the full gear set when BLM, SCH, GEO can get a potential MAB+78 M.Acc+17 INT+70 with all 5 pieces fully augmented.

[Minikom]

i think Paths are limited, they need to add more paths and diversify paths, MAB for light armors (probably just cor get the benefy but who know) or acc/attack for magges (those mages DD).

[Calatilla]

I don't think SE realises that straight MaB doesn't affect avatars, why else would they keep putting smn on gear that "only" has MaB on it like Witchstone?

[Mirage]

Because obviously, they are supposed to nuke with spells from their subjob!

learn to smn!

[Infidi]

Because obviously, they are supposed to nuke with spells from their subjob!

learn to smn!

Stone II does more then my Titan's Stone IV. They were right all along! XD

[Xerius]

Greetings,

To give you all a better idea of what we have planned for the grips we announced for summoner, you can think along the lines of what the newly added Alternator does for puppetmaster’s automaton. Also, there will not be grips specific to each avatar, so don't worry about clogging your inventory with one for each avatar!

Wait, so why does SMN not have a path in Delve gear?

[Kiakasha]

waiting patiently on these grips, I was shocked alternator was so good... let's hope the development team shows summoner some love!

[Herby]

Wait, so why does SMN not have a path in Delve gear?

Good Question! It's Certainly nice to get some (vague) Info on the planned grips but it didn't answer my question ^^

[Okipuit]

Wait, so why does SMN not have a path in Delve gear?

Unlike artifact, relic, and AF3 type gear, Delve equipment does not have special job and ability enhancements.

As mentioned previously, however, we understand that there is currently a lack of pet enhancement stats on the Delve gear and we will be making adjustments to add these.

[Mirage]

Pet stats in general would work, as long as the stats are high, and that you add stats that are valuable to many types of pets, not just one or two.

Remember SE, there is a lot of catching up to do, just not a little bit.

[Phafi]

so why can't the equipment just be "Player + Pet"

[Herby]

Unlike artifact, relic, and AF3 type gear, Delve equipment does not have special job and ability enhancements.

As mentioned previously, however, we understand that there is currently a lack of pet enhancement stats on the Delve gear and we will be making adjustments to add these.

Hopefully it will be a substantial stat increase for my beloved pets :)

[Thundarian]

I would settle for feeling like I had anything to work towards on Summoner.

*edit: Also, why is it near impossible to tell if some summoner pieces are better than others. Why do most pieces not just say: Avatar m. acc +5 so you can actually compare pieces. How the heck am I supposed to know which piece is actually an upgrade? I'm really just guessing for some pieces right now...

[Xerius]

Unlike artifact, relic, and AF3 type gear, Delve equipment does not have special job and ability enhancements.

As mentioned previously, however, we understand that there is currently a lack of pet enhancement stats on the Delve gear and we will be making adjustments to add these.

Some news is better than no news! Thanks for the info Okipuit! Hopefully, some perp. cost - will be in there. Pieces without that tend to fall into the macro piece category and while I love my AF3, I think it's time for a palette swap.

[Dekusuta]

Greetings,

To give you all a better idea of what we have planned for the grips we announced for summoner, you can think along the lines of what the newly added Alternator does for puppetmaster’s automaton. Also, there will not be grips specific to each avatar, so don't worry about clogging your inventory with one for each avatar!

Nice to hear the "grips" will provide enhances similar to Alternator. However, the mere fact that we get "Grips" in the plural while Puppetmaster only need 1 item is concerning.

Summoners already require a large amount of gear, to swap between various needs to do our job (between bp min, magic attk max, physical attk max) that I feel that unless the multiple grips combined provide an enhancement so great that it is un"balanced" to put into 1 item, splitting an alternator-like enhancements into multiple grips is not the solution. We should only need 1 grip if what we are getting is essentially alternator for summoners.

[Mirage]

Don't really care if there are multiple grips, unless they all are identical except having different elemental/avatar affinities. It'd be fine if there was a "physical strength" grip and a "magical strength" grip and a "don't die in 10 seconds" grip.

[Babekeke]

1 grip:
BP timer-15;
Summoning Magic skill +50;
perp cost -5;
avatar: MAB+50;
att+50;
acc+50;
eva+50;
damage taken -20%;
all stats +70;

And I shan't stand for ANYTHING less :)

[Mirage]

If it's gonna do that, with no alternatives for summoner, why make it an item? Just bake it into the job natively as you reach lv99.

[Dekusuta]

If it's gonna do that, with no alternatives for summoner, why make it an item? Just bake it into the job natively as you reach lv99.

You make an item so people spend a day, a week, a month, a year grinding for it. That's the purpose of an MMO. Just handing it out is antithetical to the game, and people likely won't appreciate it.

Besides, asking for new job abilities which may possibly provide those buffs should be kept separate in a discussion about summoner gear.

And why into 1 item? As I mentioned previously, Puppetmasters get a huge amount of bonuses on 1 single item and implored the dev team to consider putting the bonuses all into one grip and NOT split them up for the sake of splitting them up. Thanfully, the dev team has already confirmed the grips won't be avatar based

Splitting up the buffs into multiple groups makes sense if the buffs together combined are so overwhelmingly OP they have to be in 2 items so we have to pick and choose which one we want to use at that time. Otherwise, it will be another slap to the face of summoners having to carry around and spend plasm, gil, time getting more than 1 grip for buffs Puppetmasters are getting in 1 animator.

I think asking for a bit of fairness with regards to summoner is long overdue. We keep getting shafted for updates, and they've even admitted our long promised avatars as bottom of the barrel in terms of priority.

[Babekeke]

If it's gonna do that, with no alternatives for summoner, why make it an item? Just bake it into the job natively as you reach lv99.

Because that way, every bandwaggon SMN would be good, without having to put in any thought/effort to do well. Just like all the perle BST in dynamis.

[Jerbob]

I don't much like the idea of a piece of "ultra gear" either, though I think it speaks volumes about SMN that the grip Babekeke suggests is probably about right despite appearing completely excessive at first glance. What would be more fun, I think, is to make the bonuses intrinsic to the avatar but attach the whole thing to a series of mini-quests and key items that essentially "unlock potential" in SMN. You could tie it to requirements in Summoning Magic skill, or SMN level, something like that. It'd give the progression to a more powerful avatar but, more importantly, give lots of opportunities for more SMN storyline development!

SMN is a questline that practically writes itself. We still don't know everything about the energy thief from our AF quests, and the entire reason for Carbuncle making a pact with us to allow us to be summoners - showing the Avatars what the world is like so they won't reset it when they awaken - is massively open-ended. What more can we learn about Karaha-Baruha and the kind of Summoning he studied in the Animastery, obviously so different to ours? How was the Windurstian pact with Fenrir made? What's the deal with elemental spirits? Why do the developers hate us so much? Just have each quest upgrade a "Whisper of Rainbows" key item, replacing it each time with one with an extra bonus - the magic attack bonus, accuracy and so forth.

Of course it's never going to happen, but I can dream.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, It will never happen. Don't get me wrong i wish the Development team was bigger than it is so it'd have time to do this stuff... But, It doesn't.

Think a Pre-req shoulda been beating Carbuncle Prime BCNM, If you've beaten it you know why. :o

[Mokeil]

Why do the developers hate us so much?

We may never know the answer to that one... :p

Speaking of quest lines, though... I've always wanted a super, world-spanning epic in order to re-fuse Phoenix into one being again. It would start with the theft of Tenzen's sword, and would end up involving just about every major NPC from Zilart through (at least) Aht Urhgan. The final battle would be atop the Cradle of Rebirth, and would end with Phoenix as a summonable avatar.

There would then have been a follow-up BCNM fight for everyone who had all the other terrestrial avatars, where they fight next to you against Bahamut to convince him to stop being a doody-head and sign up with you, at least as a two-hour type avatar.

Alas for things that will never be...

[Dekusuta]

I joke about this a lot but I don't think dev 'hate' summoners. They are IMHO just lost as to where to take the job. Summoner's raison d'etre is an overpowered mage class that can summon an avatar to fudge things up, that by its nature makes it very hard to implement in a balanced way.

Summoners never truly found a home in the pre Abyssea game either outside of end-game linkshells needing them initially for Nether Blast Kirin kiting to JoL parties. So our niche was to do unresisted magical damage from a source of damage that is disposable.

Then when killing became a zerg affair, PD was our job.

With Delve and Adoulin content, our role is less clear, and we haven't had any bloodpacts or abilities that fits into that content. I've yet to see SMNs requested in all the Delve runs I've been in.

I've only seem them in Wildskeeper and maybe Delve NM runs. In the meantime, we've lost ground in the soloing area.

When I was new to the game in 2004, I was gobsmacked by a SMN carby kiting Aquarius for dama cloth farming. SMN hasn't been that kind of Solo job for a long time. While BSTs and Pups can farm a relic solo. That's just kind of insulting to SMNs.

If we were given something OP on a party/end game sphere that makes us desirable, I wouldn't be so annoyed. But we weren't.

[FaeQueenCory]

1 grip:
BP timer-15;
Summoning Magic skill +50;
perp cost -5;
avatar: MAB+50;
att+50;
acc+50;
eva+50;
damage taken -20%;
all stats +70;

And I shan't stand for ANYTHING less :)

0_0
Yesssssss......
The grip spot for smn is basically already been "only vox here plz" for forever now....
I'm not really complaining about that... +3 summoning skill.... >_> being forsaken...
Especially after the advent of all the >+3 skill items in the past few years...
PLUS it might be one of the pieces that will be needed for that mythical +600 summoning skill!

[Clou777]

OMG a community rep in here answering!!! Quick follow up question:

Any update as to when we might ever see the 2 promised Avatars from 2 years ago???

seems we will never get the answer to this question and possibly not the avatars either, SE seem to have been trolling us with that for years, they can make an entire expansion but cant deliver these things still.

[Darwyn]

Hi all, I'm new to the game so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but I would like to share my thoughts on this anyway. Since I started the game I decided I wanted to be a SMN, what I initially expected from the SMN job was something similar to the other FFs' summons, a spell that brought out a summon did massive damage and had a big mp cost. To my surprise summons are treated like "pets" and are capable of participating in battle, not a bad idea but not as cool as I thought. So far I've lvl'd my SMN job to 59 with SCH as my sub. There are several things I've noticed about other players expectations regarding someone playing a SMN job.

1. Everyone expects me to have WHM as my sub job.
2. Everyone expects me to have all the Avatars already.
3. Everyone expects me to buff/heal them.
4. Everyone downplays my roll in a party.

Here's my thoughts on those expectations.

1. SMN should NOT be another WHM, I don't want to sit there and watch HPs.. I hate it.
2. I'm new, getting fame sucks and takes forever. Cut me some slack.
3. See 1.
4. Well this is why I opted to get SCH as my sub because I can do some Elemental damage also, while my avatar is busy staring at the mob (even though I already cast assault).

My thoughts on SMN as a job and what I think of it so far.

The avatars need to have some better Blood Pacts with more damage considering the 45 sec wait time.
I noticed that you can't target Avatars with healing spells or buffs even though in my eyes they are being treated like an NPC party member <--- This alone would allow the Avatars to do some decent damage with proper buffs and would deal with avatar persistence problem.

Also as a summoner unless you are subbing some other damage dealing class you are pretty open to unexpected attacks from agro'd mobs (plenty of times I've died because of this) unless you have you're summon out constantly.
Elementals seem pretty useless to me (unpredictable cast times, pacts) I only use mine for Siphon.

Another thing I noticed is that the SMN job seems unfinished/half-baked. I don't know what it is but I just feels that way.
Maybe it's the lack of job related equipment at lower lvls (and higher) or maybe it's the lack of blood pacts. I also see no benefit to using SMN as a sub job other than higher MP but again I'm probably wrong.

Overall I believe the devs are looking not so much to balance the jobs with one another but rather create a need for them. Similar to the job systems in FPS like Battlefield where medics heal and revive, engineers fix equipment.. ect. However, personally I think that they are going about it all wrong. Instead of making Job specific quests/missions they should focus on how each job fits in a party situation. EX. WHM are expected to heal, BLM are expected to weaken/slow and bomb, Warriors are expected to deal damage etc. I think SMN should fit in this party role as a little bit of everything depending on the Avatar. Essentially when I think Summons I think FF7, think phoenix down, Knights of the round, bahamut(sic).

So far I like the game (3 weeks in) but honestly I feel like I put to much time into SMN atm and wished I had LVL'd some other class first.. now I just gotta see this thru to 99 so I can use this to make my transition to another job easier.

**On a side note.. I wish SMN didn't have to use staffs.. pretty much every other game I play the summoner gets to use at least a dagger. This is just my personal opinion though.

[Babekeke]

OK, let me have a go at answering some of your questions, and addressing some of your concerns:


Hi all, I'm new to the game so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but I would like to share my thoughts on this anyway. Since I started the game I decided I wanted to be a SMN, what I initially expected from the SMN job was something similar to the other FFs' summons, a spell that brought out a summon did massive damage and had a big mp cost.

Ironically, this is what Odin is (not available until level 75) and it's absolutely terrible (mainly due to the fact that you can only use him once an hour).


To my surprise summons are treated like "pets" and are capable of participating in battle, not a bad idea but not as cool as I thought. So far I've lvl'd my SMN job to 59 with SCH as my sub. There are several things I've noticed about other players expectations regarding someone playing a SMN job.

1. Everyone expects me to have WHM as my sub job.

Then everyone is a dick. I almost always sub SCH on SMN. SCH can do most of what WHM can as a lvl 49 sub, yet it can also swap to dark arts for a quick drain/aspir. At 99 with a Twilight Cloak, SMN is also a great choice of job to use Impact, due to the almost limitless MP, but you need to be subbing SCH to use impact to any effect.


2. Everyone expects me to have all the Avatars already.

Though it is possible to get all avatars by level 15 without any outside help, it is by no means necessary, particularly if you are just soloing. Here's a tip for soloing the mini avatar fights: Get a higher level SMN friend to use earthen ward and Aerial Armor on you (or since you're level 59, you can do this on yourself once you have garuda and titan). For some reason buffs don't wear before entering. If you have no problem with the fight, but can't get enough fame, then this guide (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Quick_Reputation) will help you to get fame.


3. Everyone expects me to buff/heal them.

Kind of dependant on #2. If you have all of the avatars and you can constantly keep up buffs on the party and deal damage to the mobs, then you prove your place in a party. If your avatars don't do much damage, and you don't have avatars with useful buffs, then yes, you'll need to buff and heal. This is the way that it's always been for SMN, like it or not. Good news is that it gets better 70+ when you actually get some decent Blood Pacts (we still use them at 99).


4. Everyone downplays my roll in a party.

See #3. Also, maybe you would have more luck in an alliance book party, either level sync'd in crawler's nest, or in Bostaunieux Oubliette (never try to spell that - use the auto-translate).


Here's my thoughts on those expectations.

1. SMN should NOT be another WHM, I don't want to sit there and watch HPs.. I hate it.

Even as SCH SJ, people will expect you to be another WHM. The best solution is to try and get an actual WHM in your PT. Even then, you'll need to toss out the occasional cure now and again.


2. I'm new, getting fame sucks and takes forever. Cut me some slack.

See my link above.


3. See 1.

See 1.


4. Well this is why I opted to get SCH as my sub because I can do some Elemental damage also, while my avatar is busy staring at the mob (even though I already cast assault).

Personally I would only use drain and aspir from the dark arts side. Due to you only getting access to the lower nukes with SCH as a SJ they aren't going to contribute much. Also, get a Chatoyant staff (1.5 mil) or if you can't make that kind of gil, then an Iridal Staff (150k). These staffs help with both your avatar perp cost, Cure amounts and also your nuking acc and power.


My thoughts on SMN as a job and what I think of it so far.

The avatars need to have some better Blood Pacts with more damage considering the 45 sec wait time.

This is a sore point among many of us. Mainly due to the 45 (49 with BP charge time) second cap, we feel it should be lowered to at least 30 seconds. Particularly when melees can reduce their attack speed (and thus the rate at which they WS) by 80%, yet we can only reduce BP timers by 25%. And we're still limited by MP. By reducing BPs by 80%, we could BP every 12 seconds :-) (16 with BP charge time).


I noticed that you can't target Avatars with healing spells or buffs even though in my eyes they are being treated like an NPC party member <--- This alone would allow the Avatars to do some decent damage with proper buffs and would deal with avatar persistence problem.

Some of the avatars (Carbuncle, Garuda and Leviathan) have BPs that can heal themselves, along with those in party that are close to them. Strategically, you need to choose which avatar to use depending on your situation. If you want to be able to cure the avatar, you need to use 1 of those 3.
If you want to be able to buff your avatar, then the wards available to each avatar will again affect which you want to use. Also your level. At 65, Diabolos is the best nuker, and Fenrir is the best for physical damage. At your current level, Ifrit can be good for damage by using crimson howl before a double punch. Though I think Shiva's Double slap even un-buffed was pretty powerful, and if you use frost armour before-hand, her spikes will likely paralyse the mob when it hits her.
Also remember that (most) physical BPs can be used in a skillchain, and the magic BPs can be used to Magic Burst. This significantly increases the amount of damage that you do, but can require a bit of practice to get the timing right.


Also as a summoner unless you are subbing some other damage dealing class you are pretty open to unexpected attacks from agro'd mobs (plenty of times I've died because of this) unless you have you're summon out constantly.

Tips for this not to happen with SCH sub:
1) if you're running somewhere, use sneak and invisible.
2) keep aquaveil up to make it less likely that you will get interrupted when trying to summon an avatar/spirit to save you.
3) You should now have access to Blink. This will help to save you as there's a chance that the mob will hit a shadow, instead of you.
4) At 88 you will get access to Stoneskin. When used with Blink, you will easily be able to summon an avatar or spirit.


Elementals seem pretty useless to me (unpredictable cast times, pacts) I only use mine for Siphon.

Their usefulness has increased over the years:
1) They used to cost much much more MP to have out. Now they are practically free, making them good in an emergency.
2) Light spirit is useful if you are expected to cure. It is basically like having a WHM by your side to cure people, or if everyone is full, it will cast buffs (protect, shell, haste, regen).
3) We didn't have elemental siphon for the first ~7 years.
4) Most of them are very cheap, and give you an elemental choice for each element while you are short on avatars. Eg. If you are fighting Goblins and your party occasionally gets wiped by a large Bomb Toss (which is fire-based), you can use water spirit and it will take hardly any damage, and give the goblin something else to hit instead of you (as long as you don't get hit by bomb toss yourself).


Another thing I noticed is that the SMN job seems unfinished/half-baked. I don't know what it is but I just feels that way.
Maybe it's the lack of job related equipment at lower lvls (and higher) or maybe it's the lack of blood pacts.

At you currentl level, a mix of Austere (http://www.ffxiah.com/search/item?q=austere)/Penance (http://www.ffxiah.com/search/item?q=penance) gear (dependant on your budget) and Artifact gear (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Evoker%27s_Attire_Set) should suffice. Also if you have some level 99 friends, try to get a pair of Carbuncles Mitts (these mitts will also help you in the mini-avatar fights).


I also see no benefit to using SMN as a sub job other than higher MP but again I'm probably wrong.

Many years ago, every WHM worth his/her salt used SMN as a SJ for extra MP, and the auto-refresh job trait. When Scholar was released, most went across to that instead, and since lvl 80+ was released, most use RDM sub for refresh and convert (some still use SCH). Now, however you are correct. Noone uses /SMN any more except in some very small niches (BRD/SMN in neo-nyzul isle, for example).


Overall I believe the devs are looking not so much to balance the jobs with one another but rather create a need for them. Similar to the job systems in FPS like Battlefield where medics heal and revive, engineers fix equipment.. ect. However, personally I think that they are going about it all wrong. Instead of making Job specific quests/missions they should focus on how each job fits in a party situation. EX. WHM are expected to heal, BLM are expected to weaken/slow and bomb, Warriors are expected to deal damage etc. I think SMN should fit in this party role as a little bit of everything depending on the Avatar. Essentially when I think Summons I think FF7, think phoenix down, Knights of the round, bahamut(sic).

This is generally exactly where SMN fits in right now. We were only used for Alexander and Perfect Defense. However we do have a couple of useful buffs and de-buffs. The new SP ability will increase our appeal somewhat in August too.


So far I like the game (3 weeks in) but honestly I feel like I put to much time into SMN atm and wished I had LVL'd some other class first.. now I just gotta see this thru to 99 so I can use this to make my transition to another job easier.

SMN can be a nice first job (it was mine). Benefits of SMN as a first job are:

1) You can level it very cheaply.
2) You can solo mobs higher than yourself fairly easy, making some of the Limit Breaks easier.
3) One of the easiest Maat fights in the game (especially if you solo'd the lvl 20 avatar fights).


**On a side note.. I wish SMN didn't have to use staffs.. pretty much every other game I play the summoner gets to use at least a dagger. This is just my personal opinion though.

Firstly, SMN can use some of the daggers, and gets an MP restoring WS with those daggers quite early on (though it doesn't deal any damage). Secondly, keep up with your staff skill. With capped staff skill at level 66, you can use a Weapon Skill called Spirit Taker. This deals damage to the mob, and transfers an amount of MP equivalent to the damage dealt, back to your MP pool. Very nice.

[Karbuncle]

That Elvaan is new to this game and even he can see SMN Is one of the most underused, underappreciated, Fake-WHM sh*t stains of a job in FFXI. He's basically nailed every single flaw with the job. sh*tty Damage potential, restricted 45 second BP timer, Completely unable to buff them, Elementals Suck, the job is halfbaked at best and designed for a Era of content around RoTZ and was never updated to be more useful when the content design flow changed...

And yet this fact is entirely lost on the Dev team.

I'm speechless... It just infuriates me more knowing someone whos been in the game only long enough to get to level 60 can spot and point out every single reason the job sucks... and these points are completely lost to the development team.

Edit: Just to let you know, nothing changes when you hit 99. Avatars are still so pathetic I can out dmg them as SMN/WHM Meleeing with a staff... no I'm not joking I've done it more times than i can count, and You're still not invited to anything. The one thing we were useful for, Perfect Defense, has faded into obscurity since over the course of the last few years, the only update SMN has got is a Nerf to their 1 single useful bloodpact.

[Darwyn]

No offense, to the poster who replied with a response to my long paragraph by breaking it down but from my point of view It seems like you're trying to see the positive too hard. Honestly I already knew about the MP boost with SCH and it's benefits so I did take that into account. Being able to use daggers means being able to use them in a useful manner beyond meager MP recoup. That's beside the point here though, Im not trying to be a pessimist but devs for these types of games never listen to the players they "know" more than us and they "know what they are doing". I'm a computer science major myself, most programmers are like that at some point "they know better" than the user. Honestly sometimes I think game devs don't even play games, they should but I doesn't appear so.

Point I get what they are trying to do, they create a need for a certain job so those that haven't lvl'd it go and do it making you lvl multiple jobs is a means to keep you busy and thus paying money. However I think we players like to have choice and that is the fun of MMO's choice. If I want to play as a SMN all the time to every event I should be allowed to by giving me an equal role as other players in my party. In the end after I max out one job and get bored I'm more likely to try another job anyways.

Then again I think it's noticeable that what in most other games would be called a "class" is called a "job" in this game. That alone shows the original and current intent of the roles of "jobs" in the game. A doctor can't build a road so why bring him to the construction zone. That's the idea anyway.. A horrible horrible idea.

[Babekeke]

Avatars are still so pathetic I can out dmg them as SMN/WHM Meleeing with a staff...

Even with delve staff and ammo? I haven't bothered to get them yet since I almost exclusively only ever use SMN for WoE.

[Karbuncle]

Their white damage is still garbage grade garbage with Delve Ammo, but their BPs get a sizeable bonus in damage output. So I'd probably start to lag behind in damage ever so slightly, unless i subbed a DD sub.

but yah, the 45 sec BP timer really sh*ts over our DPS potential.

[Babekeke]

but yah, the 45 sec BP timer really sh*ts over our DPS potential.

Yup, as I mentioned earlier, we would be down to 12 seconds if we could get 80% delay reduction, the same as melees. (16 secs including readying time)

[Herby]

why are you counting the readying time? The recast timer starts at the beginning of the readying time. It would be 12 seconds, period.

But i'm with you although i'd be fine with a -40 BP delay cap (20 seconds recast).

It has to be adjusted since everything in the game got faster(overabundance of haste/fastcast gear for every job, buffs), except SMN which is stuck with their delay cap from 10 years ago.

[FaeQueenCory]

Yup, as I mentioned earlier, we would be down to 12 seconds if we could get 80% delay reduction, the same as melees. (16 secs including readying time)
We don't even NEED an 80% cap... And I highly doubt we'd ever get THAT... Cause basically our BP are supposed to be the same as their WSs... right?
Even just a 50% cap... We'd be a viable decent DD job... especially with the boost from the new ammo and the potential grip... (+70 to each stat? seems likely)

But I think we all agree on one thing: the current cap is redic and needs to be increased.

[Babekeke]

We don't even NEED an 80% cap...

Correct, we don't. But, think about it if we did. Sure you could use your strongest BPs Back-to-back for a load of damage over a 5 min period, or you could use every buff from every avatar at the start of a fight; but then you'd be out of MP, and out of the game until ele siphon/sublimation/convert were back up, or you'd healed up enough again.

Or, you could find your own balance of buffing, DDing, refresh/idle gear, HMP gear, Ele siphon gear, maybe even HP gear to use just for sublimation, or convert.

We're already severely limited by MP as to what we can do. there's no reason to limit us by timers as well.

[Herby]

Nothing to add. Babekeke sums it up perfectly.

[Clou777]

Correct, we don't. But, think about it if we did. Sure you could use your strongest BPs Back-to-back for a load of damage over a 5 min period, or you could use every buff from every avatar at the start of a fight; but then you'd be out of MP, and out of the game until ele siphon/sublimation/convert were back up, or you'd healed up enough again.

Or, you could find your own balance of buffing, DDing, refresh/idle gear, HMP gear, Ele siphon gear, maybe even HP gear to use just for sublimation, or convert.

We're already severely limited by MP as to what we can do. there's no reason to limit us by timers as well.

agreed, the whole point of SMN according to SE is about "MP management", it should be solely up to us how we manage it without being restricted by timers

[nyheen]

why not just have each BP, on it own timer? dont really see how it would be broken if i used predator claw,Wind Blade,Aero IV, etc without it all being on the same timer. any mage like blu,rdm,blm can spam all spells freely without worrying about that so why cant smn?>< these timers are hurting us lot

[Mokeil]

I'm not sure putting them all on independent timers is the way to go. It would just be too much offensive power to be able to use it all the time, especially given that we could essentially nuke with no fear of death, thanks to our (mostly) hate free mechanic. Limiting back-to-back BPs to our upcoming, new SP move is just fine.

On the other hand, 45 seconds is just too long in today's max haste based game. Thirty seconds would be a much more reasonable number, and far more in line with things like Fast Cast. It would also boost both our offensive might and support potential. They wouldn't even need to add any more gear or anything - there's already plenty to choose from in game that would allow us to reach -30 BP Delay.

[Archades]

i know a lot would not agree with me but, id be willing to accept the timer if they would increase the potency of the BPs to match. Or SE forbid new BPs that match the potency of new gear. id be up for quests to unlock em or such.

I just think they need to realize that even as a mage, we aren't the same as any of the other mage.

[FaeQueenCory]

Correct, we don't. But, think about it if we did. Sure you could use your strongest BPs Back-to-back for a load of damage over a 5 min period, or you could use every buff from every avatar at the start of a fight; but then you'd be out of MP, and out of the game until ele siphon/sublimation/convert were back up, or you'd healed up enough again.

Or, you could find your own balance of buffing, DDing, refresh/idle gear, HMP gear, Ele siphon gear, maybe even HP gear to use just for sublimation, or convert.

We're already severely limited by MP as to what we can do. there's no reason to limit us by timers as well.
Oh I completely agree. I was just saying that we don't NEED it to be that high... just a slight buff of 50% would put us back into play...

the BP timer and lack of scaling are what makes smn... not very good.... :(
comparatively!

An 80% redux cap would be... wonderful... though it will never happen.
I'd rather ask for a slice of cake, rather for one the size of my room... Because when I get it... I know I'm not going to be disappointed in the one that will actually happen.
lol if that makes sense.

Basically:
we absolutely need higher cap to keep up with everyone else.
we don't need to eclipse the other jobs...

Sure it would be nice... but it's not NEEDED for us to actually be useful.

Basically, I compare SMN to BLM in terms of how limits should be.
Both are mage jobs and thus limited by their MP pools and skill more than anything else.
AND both fit into the archetype of "DD". (the three rpg archetypes are DD, Tank, and support btw, all jobs are either one or a combination. SMN isn't solely DD, but for this comparison, we'll look at only the DD aspects.)
But the difference is that BLM have no delay between use of their offensive spells. And now, even less so.
A BLM can spam -jas and tierVs until they have no more MP... And thus produce a great deal of damage.
A SMN... can't. For the soul reason of that damn 45s timer.
Sure, the BLM is limited from spamming thundaja via the recast timer... but they have 5 other -jas that can be cast immediately.
And while SMN shouldn't ever be better or even equal to a BLM in terms of DD.... it should be COMPARABLE.

We don't want to invalidate another job by exceeding their only role... namely because SMN is versatile. We can DD... under the right, very specific conditions, we can tank... we can even be support through the massive list of our buffs and our AoE healing... (if I had to rank us, we're mostly "DD" and "support" with a small touch of "tank")

A BLM is the top of the magic-DD, and SMN shouldn't be better than them...
but we're SO far behind them in terms of DD... and it's pretty much all the damn timer's fault.

If it was uncapped or capped at 80%, then yes, let the crappy SMNs show how bad they are at MP management...
But this is just a pipe-dream... especially with that gil safe... so that people don't over bid on the AH.....
We need the delay cap increased... but let's not demand more than what we know we'll ever get.
Then we'll just be disappointed forever.