ManaKing
05-04-2013, 02:38 PM
In many ways, what SE is doing is in the best interest of attempting forward progress for their game. They are making players have new goals. The new weapons in Delve represent a fundamental part of any expansion, progression. There is nothing wrong with replacing older content with newer content, but they are making a fundamental mistake for this particular game. They are ignoring the core values of their fan base.
FFXI players don't mind grinding out gear and slowly working on perfecting equipment. We have attention spans and the ability to plan long term. We are also loyal, and will stick to playing the game between updates and expansions because we have a community to enjoy and goals to work on.
What we aren't is children on battle.net that have the attention span of a potato. We don't constantly get bored of this game, quit, come back a month later and want to build another character to max level in a week and get whatever stupid gear set is out at the time that probably glows.
The current problem is that what was loosely and preemptively discussed with us was marketed to us like we were the later population instead of the previous. That was a mistake and caused a reaction that most people could have predicted. While some of us can see this kind of change as it was intended, as progression, most saw SEs suggestion as throwing away their entire community's core values and being sold a product that they blatantly did not subscribe to for 10+ years.
Prestige weapons in FFXI are not synonymous with elitism, but are in fact a mark of dedication. They are a reward for playing a game long enough and enjoying it enough that you were willing to do 100s of times more work to acquire good/great equipment than it would have required in almost any other MMO. It is a sign of love for your favorite job and an attempt to move it past it's normal boundaries through sheer determination. FFXI is loved by its fans because it rewards Dedication, Determination, and Love for the game.
When you propose to do away with the fruits of our labors and throw away all of the progress we have made over a decade, you are playing with fire. You could end up destroying FFXI overnight. Some will stay, but plenty would abandon the game IF it continues to feel like you are out to make a quick buck off of us in return for nothing we value.
This comes at a very strange time for most of us because I don't think anyone thought FFXI was going to get another expansion. Something something FFXIV was/is terrible because it is marketed to the typical MMO population instead of FFXI's population which is why we are all back on FFXI. Combine that with the general approval of this new expansion by your player base and a renewed population playing it and we are completely shocked by why you would intentionally train wreck your most lucrative title both current and ever. We are your cash cow, we want what you want, which is for us to give you our money because you provided us with an enjoyable product.
----
How you could progress your game but also reward your community's hard work is to better refine your original idea. You proposed to salvage the WSs from 2 out of the 3 Prestige weapons, but only 1 out of the 3 Prestige weapons have WSs worth salvaging. The other 2 have other things that are significantly more valuable to them than their WSs.
Relics are valued for their high base damage, +stats, and their hidden ODD that does not require an Aftermath to activate. They also have some additional affects on hit that are good and some that are bad, though no one made their Relics for the additional affects so they are mostly for flavoring. Most of their Aftermaths are terrible as are the WSs that are associated with them, even at 99. Most people use Merit WSs in conjunction with Relic Weapons to achieve a higher blend of total damage than they can get otherwise.
Mythics are valued for their ridiculous AM3s and their boosts to job abilities and job relevant stats. Pet jobs and Jobs that can maintain AM3s easily find these most desirable. Utility and support jobs also covet them because they can push the functionality of their jobs past previous restrictions such as Yagrush and Burtgang.
Empyreans are only good if their WSs are good. They have the same DPS rating as Relics, but they require their AM up to deal ODD. They have WS relevant attributes on them, which is generally useful. BUT Unless you are using the Empy WS, you are probably better off using a Relic with a Merit WS. That being said Ukonvasara and Verethragna were two of the strongest Weapons in the game before this last patch.
What is desired out of all three of these categories, generally differs, so a blanket solution would be ill advised. What would be advised is giving players a way to distill down what they liked about them and be able to walk away with them, regardless of what new content SE wants to implement. I suspect that was the intention of Mr. Matsui's original post, but it wasn't refined enough so that his community could appreciate it.
There are thrusts at the development team all the time, saying that they clearly don't play the game or that they just don't know what they are doing. I don't believe that is true because of the successful launch of this expansion. The original post by Mr. Matsui asked us to tell him what we liked in the game and what we wanted. I will make the 3rd section of this post, exactly that. I don't think I know better than him what to put in this game, but I respect that he wants my opinion I will do my best to orate that to him so that he can take it under consideration.
I am very happy with the current expansion and hope that he continues the direction it is going because I can clearly see the progression that should be associated with an expansion. What I will not appreciate seeing is damage stats so large that they need to be shorted to 120K like MMOs that aren't properly marketing to me and cannot attract my interest. Numbers of that magnitude have no significance to me and I would appreciate not seeing them in the game I enjoy playing outside of non traditional exceptions like Brews. When you are doing things like Brewing, it makes it significant, so that it can be appreciated because you jump from a couple thousand damage to almost 10 times that. Going from 100k to 1M as it would be in other games isn't aesthetically pleasing to me because it's just a bunch of zeros that are going to be cut off because they aren't significant.
What I would like to see out of the proposed change for the future is not just the damage increase that others are looking for. I don't need to always keep my Prestige weapon as the best in the game to be happy. These weapons represent older content that was worth accomplishing and should still be worth accomplishing for anyone that wishes to do them in the future. It is history and heritage that anyone that truly loves playing this game should enjoy. What needs to be preserved is the content that made them, the work ethic that is required to assemble them, and the motivation to acquire them.
The current delve weapons invalidate all of that, much to everyone's dismay. What I believe is the best solution is not to make the new weapons contender's for the prize that many people associate with Prestige weapons, but to transform Prestige weapons into job progression that a character can carry with them regardless of what new equipment is released. That way developer's hand are not tied by previous content and gear and are free to make new content and gear.
----
When a character has a lvl 99 Prestige weapon they should be able to unlock new job abilities that correspond with the weapon that they unlocked. The kind of job ability will depends on what kind of Prestige weapon it was as well as if it was lvl 99 or lvl 99 with Afterglow. Because this won't be an upgrade to the existing weapons, people will be able to gain the lvl 99 job traits even if they are in the process of Afterglow but also gives them incentive to finish the Afterglow process.
RELICS
Relics at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Relic WS(Mercy Stroke, Scourge, etc)
This job ability gives:
Access to the Relic WS
+40% to the Relic WS just like having a lvl 99 Relic would
5% ODD-ODT based on the specifications of the original Relic
ODD-ODT applies to all forms of physical damage, magic damage, pet damage, but not WS damage
Relics at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Relic WS with the name of the Relic(Mandau, Ragnarok)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:
Half of the Accuracy, Attack, or Ranged Accuracy/Attack that lvl 99 Relics have
An additional 5% ODD-ODT
Rules for Relic Job Traits:
If you don't have a Relic, you can get these JAs by acquiring the the Relic that corresponds to the weapon type that is your Mythic.
BLU > Excalibur
PUP > Spharai
COR > Annihilator
DNC > Mandau
SCH > Claustrum
RUN > Ragnarok
GEO > Mjollnir
You can get the job traits for any Relic your job has access to. You only get the traits for the weapon type that is in your Main Hand when you are melee or Ranged Slot when you are doing ranged damage. Whether or not SE supplies you with current weapons that will support that choice is up to them.
If you are RNG you can use both Y-Bow and Annihilator in the ranged slot. How does that work? You can only use Archery WS with Archery Weapons and Marksmanship WSs with Marksmanship Weapons. The Traits will only affect the weapon type you are using so you will not get bonuses for Archery and Marksmanship Weapons at the same time.
For Dual Wield, so long as your offhand matches your main hand and you have a Relic Trait for your Main Hand, you will deal ODD-ODT with both hands. Same applies to H2H.
For RDM, pick whichever weapon you want for you main hand and stick with it. You're already getting up to a 10% chance to do 2.5 times or 3 times magical damage with swords or daggers. It's already a good deal.
Additional Affects and Relic Aftermaths didn't make the list of things to keep because they are largely negligible and when they aren't they are neither balanced nor do they represent what Relics represent as a whole.
Mythics
Mythics at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Mythic WS(Death Blossom, Drakesbane, etc)
This job ability gives:
+30% to Mythic WS damage
All stats or Job Ability Augments on the Mythic Weapon
Occasionally attacks twice 10% of the time. Applies to Pets, Ranged Attacks(Expends extra ammo), Jumps, and WSs(including MAB based WS).
Occasionally reduces MP costs to 0 MP 10% of the time. Includes Blood Pacts and Automaton Casting.
Mythics at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Mythics WS with the name of the Mythics(Murgleis, Ryunohige)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:
Occasionally attacks thrice 5% of the time. Applies to the same list as above.
Occasionally reduces recast time and MP cost of spells to 0. Activation rate 5%. Includes Blood Pacts and Automaton Casting.
I don't want to include AMs into the mix for simplicity, so I modified AM3s into something a little more modest for general melee and added some mage support. Ranged Attacks should be permissible because they cost extra ammo. MAB WSs for the most part lag behind Physical ones so they were included for the sake of fairness.
Everyone should know how hard Mythics are to acquire and what goes into them. They are long and arduous tasks. Since there is only 1 Mythic per job they don't need as many rules or clarifications, but that being said, every job requires it's own mythic to get this kind of benefit. Mythics are generally viewed as a Pinnacle piece for any job and usually represent a person's favorite job, because very few people would endeavor to own multiple.
Empyreans
Empyreans at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Empyreans WS(Victory Smite, Ukko's Fury, etc)
This job ability gives:
The Empyrean WS
The 1/2 the Attribute(s) on the lvl 99 Weapon
Empyreans at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Empyreans WS with the name of the Empyrean(Verethragna, Ukonvasara)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:
The other 1/2 of the Attribute(s) on the lvl 99 Weapon
Same Rules as Relics for RUN and GEO since they don't have Empyreans. The lvl 99 Afterglow seems light, but a lot of Empyrean WSs are actually good and getting the full Attributes would make them just as strong as they are right now, not to mention the Attributes are valuable themselves. If you managed to get all the Afterglows, then your Empyrean WS would actually be stronger than they are right now because Relic AG Trait adds Atk/Acc and Mythic AG Trait adds chances for additional hits.
----
By changing Prestige weapons into High Tier Job Traits, players won't feel like SE has thrown away their time and money. SE will be free to add new weapons and give us new goals without destroying our previous accomplishments and progress. This will allow people who haven't started Prestige weapons to work on current gear but add new incentives to finish older content. For players that already have all of their Prestige weapons completed, they can move onto Delve and enjoy the damage progression that come with the new weapons. It would be an intelligent way to increase the longevity of the game and keep your player base happy.
FFXI players don't mind grinding out gear and slowly working on perfecting equipment. We have attention spans and the ability to plan long term. We are also loyal, and will stick to playing the game between updates and expansions because we have a community to enjoy and goals to work on.
What we aren't is children on battle.net that have the attention span of a potato. We don't constantly get bored of this game, quit, come back a month later and want to build another character to max level in a week and get whatever stupid gear set is out at the time that probably glows.
The current problem is that what was loosely and preemptively discussed with us was marketed to us like we were the later population instead of the previous. That was a mistake and caused a reaction that most people could have predicted. While some of us can see this kind of change as it was intended, as progression, most saw SEs suggestion as throwing away their entire community's core values and being sold a product that they blatantly did not subscribe to for 10+ years.
Prestige weapons in FFXI are not synonymous with elitism, but are in fact a mark of dedication. They are a reward for playing a game long enough and enjoying it enough that you were willing to do 100s of times more work to acquire good/great equipment than it would have required in almost any other MMO. It is a sign of love for your favorite job and an attempt to move it past it's normal boundaries through sheer determination. FFXI is loved by its fans because it rewards Dedication, Determination, and Love for the game.
When you propose to do away with the fruits of our labors and throw away all of the progress we have made over a decade, you are playing with fire. You could end up destroying FFXI overnight. Some will stay, but plenty would abandon the game IF it continues to feel like you are out to make a quick buck off of us in return for nothing we value.
This comes at a very strange time for most of us because I don't think anyone thought FFXI was going to get another expansion. Something something FFXIV was/is terrible because it is marketed to the typical MMO population instead of FFXI's population which is why we are all back on FFXI. Combine that with the general approval of this new expansion by your player base and a renewed population playing it and we are completely shocked by why you would intentionally train wreck your most lucrative title both current and ever. We are your cash cow, we want what you want, which is for us to give you our money because you provided us with an enjoyable product.
----
How you could progress your game but also reward your community's hard work is to better refine your original idea. You proposed to salvage the WSs from 2 out of the 3 Prestige weapons, but only 1 out of the 3 Prestige weapons have WSs worth salvaging. The other 2 have other things that are significantly more valuable to them than their WSs.
Relics are valued for their high base damage, +stats, and their hidden ODD that does not require an Aftermath to activate. They also have some additional affects on hit that are good and some that are bad, though no one made their Relics for the additional affects so they are mostly for flavoring. Most of their Aftermaths are terrible as are the WSs that are associated with them, even at 99. Most people use Merit WSs in conjunction with Relic Weapons to achieve a higher blend of total damage than they can get otherwise.
Mythics are valued for their ridiculous AM3s and their boosts to job abilities and job relevant stats. Pet jobs and Jobs that can maintain AM3s easily find these most desirable. Utility and support jobs also covet them because they can push the functionality of their jobs past previous restrictions such as Yagrush and Burtgang.
Empyreans are only good if their WSs are good. They have the same DPS rating as Relics, but they require their AM up to deal ODD. They have WS relevant attributes on them, which is generally useful. BUT Unless you are using the Empy WS, you are probably better off using a Relic with a Merit WS. That being said Ukonvasara and Verethragna were two of the strongest Weapons in the game before this last patch.
What is desired out of all three of these categories, generally differs, so a blanket solution would be ill advised. What would be advised is giving players a way to distill down what they liked about them and be able to walk away with them, regardless of what new content SE wants to implement. I suspect that was the intention of Mr. Matsui's original post, but it wasn't refined enough so that his community could appreciate it.
There are thrusts at the development team all the time, saying that they clearly don't play the game or that they just don't know what they are doing. I don't believe that is true because of the successful launch of this expansion. The original post by Mr. Matsui asked us to tell him what we liked in the game and what we wanted. I will make the 3rd section of this post, exactly that. I don't think I know better than him what to put in this game, but I respect that he wants my opinion I will do my best to orate that to him so that he can take it under consideration.
I am very happy with the current expansion and hope that he continues the direction it is going because I can clearly see the progression that should be associated with an expansion. What I will not appreciate seeing is damage stats so large that they need to be shorted to 120K like MMOs that aren't properly marketing to me and cannot attract my interest. Numbers of that magnitude have no significance to me and I would appreciate not seeing them in the game I enjoy playing outside of non traditional exceptions like Brews. When you are doing things like Brewing, it makes it significant, so that it can be appreciated because you jump from a couple thousand damage to almost 10 times that. Going from 100k to 1M as it would be in other games isn't aesthetically pleasing to me because it's just a bunch of zeros that are going to be cut off because they aren't significant.
What I would like to see out of the proposed change for the future is not just the damage increase that others are looking for. I don't need to always keep my Prestige weapon as the best in the game to be happy. These weapons represent older content that was worth accomplishing and should still be worth accomplishing for anyone that wishes to do them in the future. It is history and heritage that anyone that truly loves playing this game should enjoy. What needs to be preserved is the content that made them, the work ethic that is required to assemble them, and the motivation to acquire them.
The current delve weapons invalidate all of that, much to everyone's dismay. What I believe is the best solution is not to make the new weapons contender's for the prize that many people associate with Prestige weapons, but to transform Prestige weapons into job progression that a character can carry with them regardless of what new equipment is released. That way developer's hand are not tied by previous content and gear and are free to make new content and gear.
----
When a character has a lvl 99 Prestige weapon they should be able to unlock new job abilities that correspond with the weapon that they unlocked. The kind of job ability will depends on what kind of Prestige weapon it was as well as if it was lvl 99 or lvl 99 with Afterglow. Because this won't be an upgrade to the existing weapons, people will be able to gain the lvl 99 job traits even if they are in the process of Afterglow but also gives them incentive to finish the Afterglow process.
RELICS
Relics at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Relic WS(Mercy Stroke, Scourge, etc)
This job ability gives:
Access to the Relic WS
+40% to the Relic WS just like having a lvl 99 Relic would
5% ODD-ODT based on the specifications of the original Relic
ODD-ODT applies to all forms of physical damage, magic damage, pet damage, but not WS damage
Relics at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Relic WS with the name of the Relic(Mandau, Ragnarok)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:
Half of the Accuracy, Attack, or Ranged Accuracy/Attack that lvl 99 Relics have
An additional 5% ODD-ODT
Rules for Relic Job Traits:
If you don't have a Relic, you can get these JAs by acquiring the the Relic that corresponds to the weapon type that is your Mythic.
BLU > Excalibur
PUP > Spharai
COR > Annihilator
DNC > Mandau
SCH > Claustrum
RUN > Ragnarok
GEO > Mjollnir
You can get the job traits for any Relic your job has access to. You only get the traits for the weapon type that is in your Main Hand when you are melee or Ranged Slot when you are doing ranged damage. Whether or not SE supplies you with current weapons that will support that choice is up to them.
If you are RNG you can use both Y-Bow and Annihilator in the ranged slot. How does that work? You can only use Archery WS with Archery Weapons and Marksmanship WSs with Marksmanship Weapons. The Traits will only affect the weapon type you are using so you will not get bonuses for Archery and Marksmanship Weapons at the same time.
For Dual Wield, so long as your offhand matches your main hand and you have a Relic Trait for your Main Hand, you will deal ODD-ODT with both hands. Same applies to H2H.
For RDM, pick whichever weapon you want for you main hand and stick with it. You're already getting up to a 10% chance to do 2.5 times or 3 times magical damage with swords or daggers. It's already a good deal.
Additional Affects and Relic Aftermaths didn't make the list of things to keep because they are largely negligible and when they aren't they are neither balanced nor do they represent what Relics represent as a whole.
Mythics
Mythics at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Mythic WS(Death Blossom, Drakesbane, etc)
This job ability gives:
+30% to Mythic WS damage
All stats or Job Ability Augments on the Mythic Weapon
Occasionally attacks twice 10% of the time. Applies to Pets, Ranged Attacks(Expends extra ammo), Jumps, and WSs(including MAB based WS).
Occasionally reduces MP costs to 0 MP 10% of the time. Includes Blood Pacts and Automaton Casting.
Mythics at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Mythics WS with the name of the Mythics(Murgleis, Ryunohige)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:
Occasionally attacks thrice 5% of the time. Applies to the same list as above.
Occasionally reduces recast time and MP cost of spells to 0. Activation rate 5%. Includes Blood Pacts and Automaton Casting.
I don't want to include AMs into the mix for simplicity, so I modified AM3s into something a little more modest for general melee and added some mage support. Ranged Attacks should be permissible because they cost extra ammo. MAB WSs for the most part lag behind Physical ones so they were included for the sake of fairness.
Everyone should know how hard Mythics are to acquire and what goes into them. They are long and arduous tasks. Since there is only 1 Mythic per job they don't need as many rules or clarifications, but that being said, every job requires it's own mythic to get this kind of benefit. Mythics are generally viewed as a Pinnacle piece for any job and usually represent a person's favorite job, because very few people would endeavor to own multiple.
Empyreans
Empyreans at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Empyreans WS(Victory Smite, Ukko's Fury, etc)
This job ability gives:
The Empyrean WS
The 1/2 the Attribute(s) on the lvl 99 Weapon
Empyreans at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Empyreans WS with the name of the Empyrean(Verethragna, Ukonvasara)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:
The other 1/2 of the Attribute(s) on the lvl 99 Weapon
Same Rules as Relics for RUN and GEO since they don't have Empyreans. The lvl 99 Afterglow seems light, but a lot of Empyrean WSs are actually good and getting the full Attributes would make them just as strong as they are right now, not to mention the Attributes are valuable themselves. If you managed to get all the Afterglows, then your Empyrean WS would actually be stronger than they are right now because Relic AG Trait adds Atk/Acc and Mythic AG Trait adds chances for additional hits.
----
By changing Prestige weapons into High Tier Job Traits, players won't feel like SE has thrown away their time and money. SE will be free to add new weapons and give us new goals without destroying our previous accomplishments and progress. This will allow people who haven't started Prestige weapons to work on current gear but add new incentives to finish older content. For players that already have all of their Prestige weapons completed, they can move onto Delve and enjoy the damage progression that come with the new weapons. It would be an intelligent way to increase the longevity of the game and keep your player base happy.