Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[Malphius]

So I was doing Colonization Reives in Morimar Basalt Fields today. I was on WHM having a great time healing my party, buffing, doing my job, etc... when out of no where come 4 summoners and that's when things went down hill.

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

BP's in Reives needs limited to party only or this is going to become PLD + SMN + DD only event.

[Urthdigger]

Whip out a hammer and go all hammertime?

[Malphius]

Still low points.

[Crusader81]

So I was doing Colonization Reives in Morimar Basalt Fields today. I was on WHM having a great time healing my party, buffing, doing my job, etc... when out of no where come 4 summoners and that's when things went down hill.

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

BP's in Reives needs limited to party only or this is going to become PLD + SMN + DD only event.

the Summoner in my alliance in Morimar said he was making insane Bayld using Garuda and whispering Wind, over 1000 points per increment, I'd say try that lol

Even for SMNs there's like 5 ppl going SMN all competing for Whispering Wind lol

[Camiie]

SMN is good at something? By Altana! Red alert! AWOOOOGAH! AWOOOGAH! This is NOT a drill! Emergency maintenance! Patch it NOW! GO GO GO! Let's move people! Let's MOVE!

[Malphius]

SMN is good at something? By Altana! Red alert! AWOOOOGAH! AWOOOGAH! This is NOT a drill! Emergency maintenance! Patch it NOW! GO GO GO! Let's move people! Let's MOVE!

The point isn't that Summoner is good at something, it's that summoner is actively degrading the point gain for other jobs. They have an incredibly unfair and unbalanced advantage. I can't curaga all the members in an area unless they are in my party. I can't Accession all the members in an area unless they are in my party. It's quite obviously broken and I don't see how there can be much debate about it.

Limiting SMN BP's to party only isn't going to ruin the job or the experience. It will just put them on a level playing field with everyone else.

[Alhanelem]

So I was doing Colonization Reives in Morimar Basalt Fields today. I was on WHM having a great time healing my party, buffing, doing my job, etc... when out of no where come 4 summoners and that's when things went down hill.

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

BP's in Reives needs limited to party only or this is going to become PLD + SMN + DD only event.
Are you serious?

The contributions of pets to your rieve score are minimal. You should be HAPPY you're helping everyone so much, not complaining because you think it's too good. I even read another thread not to long ago complaining at how SMN has a hard time getting a good score.

Rieves are hardly at all a "these jobs only" event. Pretty much the worst job I guess for this is GEO, because your GEO spells earn you basically no contribution.

[Malphius]

Are you serious?

The contributions of pets to your rieve score are minimal. You should be HAPPY you're helping everyone so much, not complaining because you think it's too good. I even read another thread not to long ago complaining at how SMN has a hard time getting a good score.

Rieves are hardly at all a "these jobs only" event. Pretty much the worst job I guess for this is GEO, because your GEO spells earn you basically no contribution.


Read the entire thread. They are spamming Cure BP's and earning over 1k per tally for it. Someone must be doing something wrong or there wouldn't be hoards of SMN there. I'm not upset with the points they are earning. I'm upset that they are closing out any opportunity for other support class jobs to also earn points even though it may be some what less.

As far as helping people, i'd be very happy if my contribution to Reives reflected my my Bayld score. I'm not going to these out of the goodness of my heart and neither is anyone else.

Any mage job is capable of spamming Cure 4 (even Geomancer) for a very reasonable points return.

[Icefall]

I've taken my SMN to reives before with Garuda since they updated support gains and I surely wasn't getting scores like that. Either they were misinforming you of their gains, or they were doing other things atop the blood pacts to be getting those scores. Whispering Wind is good, but not 1k per tally good.

[Hayward]

I don't want to hear word one about SMN being overpowered. All the abuse people take leveling this job, I'm surprised S-E actually allowed SMN to actually be rewarded for doing something constructive with their avatars.

[Malphius]

I've taken my SMN to reives before with Garuda since they updated support gains and I surely wasn't getting scores like that. Either they were misinforming you of their gains, or they were doing other things atop the blood pacts to be getting those scores. Whispering Wind is good, but not 1k per tally good.


Again my point isn't about the scores they are earning so truth or not it's irreverent. The issue at hand once again is they are eliminating opportunity from other players of the same class to earn Bayld.

Imagine if Twilight Scythe had a 100% activation rate on death so a few DD come with their Twilight Scythe and 1-shot all the mobs while everyone else has to stand around and twiddle their thumbs or compete for scraps.

I'm not calling for a "SMN nerf" I just think BP's need limited to party only which is very reasonable. BP's are already only party only with the exception of this and Campaign so it's a change in the event dynamics not a change to SMN in particular.

[mistmonster]

Then you completely nerf SMN for solo people.

[Malphius]

Then you completely nerf SMN for solo people.

No you don't. Just start a party or ask to be invited. You may also use your avatar offensively. But this is not a solo event.

There is no other support class in the game right now that can hit all members in an area with out restriction to party (and with good reason). Geomancer, Bard, Scholar, Whitemage and Corsair all have to be in a party to be fully utilized. SMN should be no exception.

[Babekeke]

Just get your party to drag mobs away from the SMNs so you can still heal them.

And like someone else already said: Melee some.

[Salvation]

No you don't. Just start a party or ask to be invited. You may also use your avatar offensively. But this is not a solo event.

There is no other support class in the game right now that can hit all members in an area with out restriction to party (and with good reason). Geomancer, Bard, Scholar, Whitemage and Corsair all have to be in a party to be fully utilized. SMN should be no exception.

Which of those jobs are on a (at best) 45 sec cool down timer per action? Would making it so the other support jobs can only cure, buff, etc. those in their party be an acceptable solution?

[Malphius]

Which of those jobs are on a (at best) 45 sec cool down timer per action? Would making it so the other support jobs can only cure, buff, etc. those in their party be an acceptable solution?

The issue with trying to pull some mobs away to a small group is that while this tactic works for Campaign it does not work as well for Reives because of the confined space you are allocated.

While 1 SMN may not make a huge impact 2+ certainly do. The time for 1 SMN BP may take 45 seconds but divide that between 4 SMN's and it's about 1 BP every 11.25 seconds which was the case in my experience. There was no competing what so ever.

Making it so that other support jobs can only cure, buff, etc... would not be an acceptable solution unless it was applied equally to the SMN. Keep in mind that SMN also has the ability to cast protect, shell, haste etc... using their support job on other members outside a party. Cure 4 when geared properly does upwards of 800~900 cures.

I also find it unacceptable because I am also only asking that SMN be put on the same level they are in every other event and place in the game. They have an unnatural advantage because they can hit all players in the area regardless of party or solo. I believe that SE just took the Campaign engine and tweeked it a bit for this event with little thought to how it would play out with all jobs. What you are proposing is to limit every job in an unnatural way in terms of game mechanics. My proposal is to simply change the event to eliminate a gross advantage to a single job that it does not get anywhere else in the game. This is a change to the event, not to SMN.

[Icefall]

At least someone can heal outside parties and support the whole group fighting, not just their party. I see too many reives where people are dying because the healers on site will only touch their party. If you are a healer who does heal people besides your party, that's great, but you should probably stop that if you are asking SMNs to too.

Reive isn't supposed to be every man and woman for themselves, but a community effort. If you're just there for bayld and having difficulties earning it, there are options like meleeing while curing, as others suggested, casting buffs and cures outside your party, going to another reive or nest to avoid people you don't want to play with, doing coalitions which don't involve reives, etc.

[Malphius]

At least someone can heal outside parties and support the whole group fighting, not just their party. I see too many reives where people are dying because the healers on site will only touch their party. If you are a healer who does heal people besides your party, that's great, but you should probably stop that if you are asking SMNs to too.

Reive isn't supposed to be every man and woman for themselves, but a community effort. If you're just there for bayld and having difficulties earning it, there are options like meleeing while curing, as others suggested, casting buffs and cures outside your party, going to another reive or nest to avoid people you don't want to play with, doing coalitions which don't involve reives, etc.

You're right, it shouldn't be every man and woman for themselves but it is at the moment. SMN gets to capitalize off that chaos with the ability to target every single person near their avatar in an event that is already in a very confined space. SMN's are coming to the defense of this unique advantage at the expense of other players basically saying to suck it up. I would like to return that sentiment in kind and say suck it up. Find a party or spot cure and melee as many have suggested to me. Sounds silly being told to melee on a mage job doesn't it?

[Salvation]

While 1 SMN may not make a huge impact 2+ certainly do. The time for 1 SMN BP may take 45 seconds but divide that between 4 SMN's and it's about 1 BP every 11.25 seconds which was the case in my experience. There was no competing what so ever.

Making it so that other support jobs can only cure, buff, etc... would not be an acceptable solution unless it was applied equally to the SMN. Keep in mind that SMN also has the ability to cast protect, shell, haste etc... using their support job on other members outside a party. Cure 4 when geared properly does upwards of 800~900 cures.

I also find it unacceptable because I am also only asking that SMN be put on the same level they are in every other event and place in the game. They have an unnatural advantage because they can hit all players in the area regardless of party or solo. I believe that SE just took the Campaign engine and tweeked it a bit for this event with little thought to how it would play out with all jobs. What you are proposing is to limit every job in an unnatural way in terms of game mechanics. My proposal is to simply change the event to eliminate a gross advantage to a single job that it does not get anywhere else in the game. This is a change to the event, not to SMN.

Oh ok, so your proposal is to screw all Smn over because having multiples of them in an event keeps you from getting a better reward from doing little to nothing else other than curing. You want to bring up support jobs and gearing, last I checked Whm still has access to some fairly decent melee gear and impressive WS. So what is preventing you from doing multiple things to build your score? As for putting Smn on the same level in reives that they are in every other event in the game, I'm going to assume that you have never actually played the job or at the very least never used it in any type of non Abyssea event.

[Malphius]

Oh ok, so your proposal is to screw all Smn over because having multiples of them in an event keeps you from getting a better reward from doing little to nothing else other than curing. You want to bring up support jobs and gearing, last I checked Whm still has access to some fairly decent melee gear and impressive WS. So what is preventing you from doing multiple things to build your score? As for putting Smn on the same level in reives that they are in every other event in the game, I'm going to assume that you have never actually played the job or at the very least never used it in any type of non Abyssea event.

SMN is very useful in events such as Legion and Odin 2.0 where my group has utilized them extensively. Guess what, they can only target 1 party with Perfect Defense or any other BP. This doesn't screw SMN in any way, it just puts them on the same level as every one else (which I've stated several times now). WHM does not have good enough melee gear to bring in good points off clubbing in Reives. If meleeing isn't an issue on mage then shouldn't you take your avatar and staff and double melee for points?

Also I take it you only play SMN in Reives since you're screwed everywhere else?

[Icefall]

You aren't maximizing your potential for points. It doesn't seem right to come here demanding that things be changed for other jobs if your tallies aren't as good as you'd like when you aren't doing everything possible that you could. It's not hard to get a club or staff from a previous event with fair (doesn't have to be top) stats, haste yourself, and smack the roots or nest while you cure/buff people and debuff mobs. You can use Spirit Taker to get back MP too if using staff. If all you've been doing is casting cures, you were missing out on quite a bit of points before that random SMN party came through.

And yes, telling a mage to melee is a bit obnoxious, I know. I find it annoying to do too as a fellow support/back line class (WHM, BRD, SMN), but we did it in Campaign, so its not that much different now. You just have to find a balance of doing your job while auto attacking roots/nests/mobs. You really do get better points than just performing one or the other.

This whole initial situation sounds like it was a one time thing, so I don't think its something to get this worked up about.

[Malphius]

You aren't maximizing your potential for points. It doesn't seem right to come here demanding that things be changed for other jobs if your tallies aren't as good as you'd like when you aren't doing everything possible that you could. It's not hard to get a club or staff from a previous event with fair (doesn't have to be top) stats, haste yourself, and smack the roots or nest while you cure/buff people and debuff mobs. You can use Spirit Taker to get back MP too if using staff. If all you've been doing is casting cures, you were missing out on quite a bit of points before that random SMN party came through.

And yes, telling a mage to melee is a bit obnoxious, I know. I find it annoying to do too as a fellow support/back line class (WHM, BRD, SMN), but we did it in Campaign, so its not that much different now. You just have to find a balance of doing your job while auto attacking roots/nests/mobs. You really do get better points than just performing one or the other.

This whole initial situation sounds like it was a one time thing, so I don't think its something to get this worked up about.


It could have been a one time thing, however I see it emerging as a trend very quickly. The player base is always quick to jump on the most advantageous strategies and rightfully so.

For the record I have tried meleeing the roots on WHM and it was pretty terrible. I have decent melee clubs and decent melee gear for WHM. I have tried Nuking the roots on SCH as well but this also brings in low points which is why you don't see any BLM in reives.

I would also be happy to spot cure anyone while meleeing if a barage of BP's weren't healing the entire area off one ability. ;)

If we can't change things for SMN can we change them for everyone else? Can I curaga everyone in my area with out restriction to party?

[Malphius]

This is the basic message I am hearing from the opposition crowd.

"Yes SMN has an unfair advantage in this 1 event but SMN is a hard job to play. Other people should have to work harder or lose points because I am unwilling to give up this advantage and I want to play solo".

It's a pretty self centered perspective.

[Babekeke]

When I do Reives on my pink DNC, big boys come along and kill the mob that I've been fighting for 5 mins and got down to 90%HP. Thus meaning I don't get as many points. Can we make it so that noone else can touch my mob please so I can get more points?

[Malphius]

When I do Reives on my pink DNC, big boys come along and kill the mob that I've been fighting for 5 mins and got down to 90%HP. Thus meaning I don't get as many points. Can we make it so that noone else can touch my mob please so I can get more points?

An inaccurate analogy. If your pink DNC isn't well geared that's a direct result as to the effort you have put into it's gear. No matter how much I put into any other support class it will never have the ability to hit all members outside of a party with AoE's. This is a unique advantage given to one job in one event.

Your pink DNC is also a support job / light DD hybrid, not a pure DD so you should be using your TP to heal and debuff. I would also suggest that anyone using curor bought abyssea gear move onto Empy gear or VW gear instead of trying to skip to the end. Especially if it takes you 5 minutes to shave off 10% of an enemies HP.

[Spiritmage]

So I guess if NPCs were added to these fights, you would complain SCH and /SCH is broken as well?

[Elexia]

An inaccurate analogy.

Very accurate. You're bitching SMNs are taking "your points".

[Malphius]

Well first it's actually not even close but okay moving on. Secondly i'm not "bitching". I'm making the observation that SMN is eliminating the potential for other support job classes to earn points based off an unbalanced advantage they have in one event. Which is a fact. Also i'll point out that they are not just "my points" they are everyone's. SMN is taking support class points for themselves though yes, which again is because of this ability.

In the event they added NPC's and opened up the physical layout this would very much reduce SMN's impact in the event and would level the playing field a bit. Everyone else would still be unable to AoE members outside their party so i'm not sure what the result would be. Not sure there is much sense in theorizing but it could be an acceptable improvement but not one I see happening just based off of the layout of the zones.

[Malphius]

So I guess if NPCs were added to these fights, you would complain SCH and /SCH is broken as well?

Keep in mind that anyone can use /sch not just 1 job.

[Camiie]

I really don't want to be mean to you, Malphius, but a WHM complaining about SMN stealing your thunder in one event is really infuriating. It's like a millionaire complaining about homeless people getting free food at the soup kitchen.

You have so many events that you're wanted for. SMN is not nearly as lucky. If you look up niche in the dictionary you'd likely see a one-horned taru standing alongside Carbuncle. You find one event where a SMN can do better than your WHM, and you've got your pantaloons in a wad over it. You have a glimpse of the SMN's world where everyone is better than us for darn near everything.

If you don't like it, try adapting. Come as a job that can score a ton of points, or try playing your WHM in a more effective way. That's what SMNs have done over the years. We main healed or we came different jobs.

You can also ask for improvements to the way your job is handled in Reives. I don't recall SMNs ever asking for others to be nerfed so that they could shine. Why don't you do them the same honor?

[Malphius]

I really don't want to be mean to you, Malphius, but a WHM complaining about SMN stealing your thunder in one event is really infuriating. It's like a millionaire complaining about homeless people getting free food at the soup kitchen.

You have so many events that you're wanted for. SMN is not nearly as lucky. If you look up niche in the dictionary you'd likely see a one-horned taru standing alongside Carbuncle. You find one event where a SMN can do better than your WHM, and you've got your pantaloons in a wad over it. You have a glimpse of the SMN's world where everyone is better than us for darn near everything.

If you don't like it, try adapting. Come as a job that can score a ton of points, or try playing your WHM in a more effective way. That's what SMNs have done over the years. We main healed or we came different jobs.

You can also ask for improvements to the way your job is handled in Reives. I don't recall SMNs ever asking for others to be nerfed so that they could shine. Why don't you do them the same honor?

Please speak your mind. I would like to hear a rational argument for this not to be fixed which is the only reason i'm still at it. So far people are only speaking out of emotion and personal preference.

WHM isn't my only job. I have several and any of them I could come on but at the moment if this becomes a trend which I believe it will, I would not be coming on any mage job. My persistence in this is because it alienates an entire job class to a high value event. Wildkeeper Reives cost 100k. That's not easy to accumulate.

I also think you are under valuing SMN's worth. Perfect Defense alone makes several of them necessary to some of the best events in the game. Legion and Odin 2.0 being a couple. SMN is also always wanted for Voidwatch so i'm not sure what events SMN is being excluded from.

Why should an entire job class adapt to an unfair advantage of one job in one event? I'm not advocating a SMN nerf. I'm advocating a change in the event dynamics of Colonization Reives. I'm asking that SMN perform normally. Every job in the game performs exactly the same way in Reives as they do every where else in the game with the exception of SMN.

If SMN's want to do themselves an honor then they should rationally explain why they should be given this preferential treatment over everyone else? This has nothing to do with your satisfaction of SMN as a job or as a whole. I know that most SMN are very unhappy with their current state of affairs. However this is not a reason to expect or demand preferential treatment at the expense of others. So far all I see from SMN's is a sense of entitlement.

[Thundarian]

Summoner is capable of getting good to great bayld gain in reive's currently ONLY if they are spamming healing bloodpacts every 45 seconds and ONLY if those heals are all healing for close to their full potential. Is this unbalanced? Potentially. Is nerfing this going to fix any problems? No.

Why you ask? Well for one, this would screw over the summoner massively. If you try a summoner and go through a reive only throwing buffs / debuffs every 45 seconds (we are assuming an offensive BP on CD on roots or a mob every 45 in either situation) you are going to make trash bayld. There is little to not bayld gain for anything but doing effective healing for a summoner, which is why you see them doing it. They are forced to for ANY bayld gain.

Secondly, you would probably screw over reive's in their current state. A lot of the time the only way everyone is getting enough heals in basaalt fields when two turtles end up spinning on top of each other near the whole group, is if summoners are getting heals off. Lets face it, targeting in this game is archaic at best, and when you put 40 people in a tight space, not everyone is going to have a party, and as a healer you aren't going to bother trying to heal the people not in your party. People are going to die. No one is going to be happy.

Basically what I'm saying is you haven't offered a decent solution. Colonization reive's aren't Odin2 or Legion. They don't seem to be designed with the idea of being forced to put together an organized group, though you certainly can. Saying summoner would be fine if you changed reive's to be like those events is wrong. I don't get the option of targeting my heals / buffs on another party / group. Sucks, but that is how it is.

Finally for an example of how bad bayld gain is, doing a nakuul the other day (yay plenty of bayld to do nakuuls which drop no summoner gear because there is no summoner gear to spend bayld on) keeping up pet buffs / debuffs in a rotation on a large group of people and using off BP's, I made about 8k bayld over the course of the hourish long fight. My dps friend made closer to 20k (keep in mind for the last 20% I went back to healing / status removal to get up to the 8k). If I had been healing the entire time instead of attempting to contribute useful buffs / debuffs, I would have been closer to the 20-25k people are reporting are possible.

TLDR: tried to do useful job things my job seems designed to do, got screwed on bayld. Nerfing the one useful thing I can do to get bayld not the solution to the problem you are having.

[RAIST]

The problem isn't that SMN is getting lots of XP by AOE healing people, it's that the WHM is just trying to get points ONLY from curing--and is only maximizing one aspect of it. On the other hand, the SMN is likely thwacking things with a stick, using offensive BP's, potentially taking some collateral damage from the AOE's and recovering that HP (at least, that's what I do). Compare that to the WHM who may very well be basically idle except for curing. It's very much like it was in campaign (I used to love to go /SAM and just smack the crap out of mobs for sh!ts and giggles...good times). You have to work for it if you want to get more out of it on mage jobs.

Out of curiosity, I changed my main to my gimped WHM and run out to fart around in Ceizak with a pair of toothpicks. Didn't cure a single person at all, didn't even cure myself (just kept Regen4 up). When all I did was beat stuff and take virtually no damage, was getting around 800 a pop. If I got more aggressive, made a few chains, enfeebled/nuked a little (well, as best a WHM can nuke in mediocre gear)...I got upwards of 1200 a pop, up to 2250 on one. Granted, I am geared more appropriatley for smacking skels in a KRT burn and this was with a pack of about 20 people ripping through them like locusts...but I only faired about twice as well when I was doing them on MNK in the same way, likely because I was simply able to dish out more damage, grab more hate, and take a much more thorough beating on that job.

So, in short....it sounds more like the problem isn't that SMN has found it's way to make up to 5k a pop on reives, it's more that the WHM's haven't found their way yet, but the potential may well be there if they put forth the effort.

[Malphius]

Summoner is capable of getting good to great bayld gain in reive's currently ONLY if they are spamming healing bloodpacts every 45 seconds and ONLY if those heals are all healing for close to their full potential. Is this unbalanced? Potentially. Is nerfing this going to fix any problems? No.

Why you ask? Well for one, this would screw over the summoner massively. If you try a summoner and go through a reive only throwing buffs / debuffs every 45 seconds (we are assuming an offensive BP on CD on roots or a mob every 45 in either situation) you are going to make trash bayld. There is little to not bayld gain for anything but doing effective healing for a summoner, which is why you see them doing it. They are forced to for ANY bayld gain.

Secondly, you would probably screw over reive's in their current state. A lot of the time the only way everyone is getting enough heals in basaalt fields when two turtles end up spinning on top of each other near the whole group, is if summoners are getting heals off. Lets face it, targeting in this game is archaic at best, and when you put 40 people in a tight space, not everyone is going to have a party, and as a healer you aren't going to bother trying to heal the people not in your party. People are going to die. No one is going to be happy.

Basically what I'm saying is you haven't offered a decent solution. Colonization reive's aren't Odin2 or Legion. They don't seem to be designed with the idea of being forced to put together an organized group, though you certainly can. Saying summoner would be fine if you changed reive's to be like those events is wrong. I don't get the option of targeting my heals / buffs on another party / group. Sucks, but that is how it is.

Finally for an example of how bad bayld gain is, doing a nakuul the other day (yay plenty of bayld to do nakuuls which drop no summoner gear because there is no summoner gear to spend bayld on) keeping up pet buffs / debuffs in a rotation on a large group of people and using off BP's, I made about 8k bayld over the course of the hourish long fight. My dps friend made closer to 20k (keep in mind for the last 20% I went back to healing / status removal to get up to the 8k). If I had been healing the entire time instead of attempting to contribute useful buffs / debuffs, I would have been closer to the 20-25k people are reporting are possible.

TLDR: tried to do useful job things my job seems designed to do, got screwed on bayld. Nerfing the one useful thing I can do to get bayld not the solution to the problem you are having.

Yes but your advantage still comes at the expense of others, a point that nobody is willing to face or acknowledge. I also don't believe that putting SMN into a party restriction for BP's will greatly reduce their Bayld. If support classes aren't getting appropriate points for buffing and performing their jobs as intended then this is another area SE needs to visit for adjustment. SMN does have the ability to spot cure however using their subjob. Cure 4 produces very generous numbers since the Healing Magic update. I would also be curious to see how a Light Spirit would react. I don't believe the argument that SMN wouldn't be able to function or get points with out this special ability.

I entirely agree that this is nothing like Odin or Legion and that wasn't my point. I was pointing out to the other poster that SMN IS very wanted for a variety of events. She claimed otherwise. I am not advocating also that they be changed to be like those events. I'm saying they need put in their natural state. Should PLD get 100% Invincible since they need to hold mobs? Should DD get Regain since they need to kill mobs? Nobody should have any special advantage.

Saying that you don't have the ability to target other parties with heals is a bit disingenuous. While you cannot target outside parties using your avatars neither can I target an outside party with Curaga or Protectra or Shellra or any of my AoE abilities. I have to do it the same way you would by using Accession. We would be on exactly the same playing field.

If you want me to propose a solution it is this.

It is obviously my stance that no one job be given an exception to it's play mechanics for any certain event. I doubt I will relent from this position. I've already stated several times why. I would take this stance regardless of what job it is. This is not an attack on SMN but an attack on the way Reives has been designed. My thread title is a tad inflammatory I realize now but it is what it is. It's still broken in this event.

If SMN is incapible of earning points by performing their job normally then this is obviously an area that SE needs to address.

I will say i've noticed a very low incentive factor for buffing those around you. It seems that the only way a mage can earn points in Reives is to cure for big numbers. You actually have more incentive to NOT buff as this will result in more opportunities to cure. I have noticed this with BLM and nukes as well. Point accumulation is still highly unbalanced. I do believe that SE needs to re-address this and I would like a response from the community reps around it.

That does not change my position that SMN needs to be operating in it's natural state as it's making for an unbalanced event.

[Malphius]

The problem isn't that SMN is getting lots of XP by AOE healing people, it's that the WHM is just trying to get points ONLY from curing--and is only maximizing one aspect of it. On the other hand, the SMN is likely thwacking things with a stick, using offensive BP's, potentially taking some collateral damage from the AOE's and recovering that HP (at least, that's what I do). Compare that to the WHM who may very well be basically idle except for curing. It's very much like it was in campaign (I used to love to go /SAM and just smack the crap out of mobs for sh!ts and giggles...good times). You have to work for it if you want to get more out of it on mage jobs.

Out of curiosity, I changed my main to my gimped WHM and run out to fart around in Ceizak with a pair of toothpicks. Didn't cure a single person at all, didn't even cure myself (just kept Regen4 up). When all I did was beat stuff and take virtually no damage, was getting around 800 a pop. If I got more aggressive, made a few chains, enfeebled/nuked a little (well, as best a WHM can nuke in mediocre gear)...I got upwards of 1200 a pop, up to 2250 on one. Granted, I am geared more appropriatley for smacking skels in a KRT burn and this was with a pack of about 20 people ripping through them like locusts...but I only faired about twice as well when I was doing them on MNK in the same way, likely because I was simply able to dish out more damage, grab more hate, and take a much more thorough beating on that job.

So, in short....it sounds more like the problem isn't that SMN has found it's way to make up to 5k a pop on reives, it's more that the WHM's haven't found their way yet, but the potential may well be there if they put forth the effort.

It has never been about SMN's ability to make good points, it's in the side effect of eliminating the roll of other support class jobs. I don't care how many points SMN makes. It has nothing to do with jealousy and it has nothing to do with WHM. I never brought up WHM once. Someone saw that WHM is my main job and brought it into the topic. I go SCH,DRG,MNK,SAM,WHM to reives. It's irreverent.

Regardless of what job someone comes on to an event they should be able to serve their intended function. Once you have a couple SMN at a Reive they eliminate the function of all other support jobs. I doubt WHM, BRD or SCH go to Reives with the intention of meleeing. I for sure don't. I would go on any number of DD jobs I have.

[RAIST]

It has never been about SMN's ability to make good points, it's in the side effect of eliminating the roll of other support class jobs. I don't care how many points SMN makes. It has nothing to do with jealousy and it has nothing to do with WHM. I never brought up WHM once. Someone saw that WHM is my main job and brought it into the topic. I go SCH,DRG,MNK,SAM,WHM to reives. It's irreverent.

Regardless of what job someone comes on to an event they should be able to serve their intended function. Once you have a couple SMN at a Reive they eliminate the function of all other support jobs. I doubt WHM, BRD or SCH go to Reives with the intention of meleeing. I for sure don't. I would go on any number of DD jobs I have.

If you truly are going on a DD, then you may need to revamp your tactics a little? I had no issues getting xp on SAM and MNK, regardless of how many SMN were present...and I don't have an R/M/E for them....just magian weapons.

As for the mage jobs....if any of them dealt with the campaign issues way back when and bothered to develop a strategy to counter the issues then, they should already know what to do. One could assume they would revert to those tactics again...if they don't, that is their choice I guess. For those who have no such experience, or never built a new strategy...perhaps now may be a good time to work on that?

{Edit:}
In roughly 1 hour... from about 14:00 Windsday to 20:00 iceday, got a full merit (well, actually 9045, but who's counting?) running around with a big group smacking things on WHM almost entirely as a battle mage weilding 2 toothpicks...only cured other people like 3 times in battle, myself maybe a dozen times tops. All other cures were done before/after to top people up (hit 371 healing magic...really need to sit down one afternoon and cap that I guess). Those SMN's were REALLY cramping my style.....back to MNK again, see if I can skill Guard some more.

[Malphius]

If you truly are going on a DD, then you may need to revamp your tactics a little? I had no issues getting xp on SAM and MNK, regardless of how many SMN were present...and I don't have an R/M/E for them....just magian weapons.

As for the mage jobs....if any of them dealt with the campaign issues way back when and bothered to develop a strategy to counter the issues then, they should already know what to do. One could assume they would revert to those tactics again...if they don't, that is their choice I guess. For those who have no such experience, or never built a new strategy...perhaps now may be a good time to work on that?

I have no issues getting points or Bayld on DD jobs. The topic at hand is that the event is unbalanced in a number of ways and 1 job getting special exception to game mechanics for said event can lead to exclusion of intended function of similar jobs.

[Aezelas]

I don't believe the argument that SMN wouldn't be able to function or get points with out this special ability.

Believe it. Aside from healing BPs, SMN doesn't get any baylds.
I've done some reives trying buffs BPs only (such as haste, stoneskin, enspells or fenrir's stats), i got nothing.

You said we could still use our avatars offensively. We still get no baylds. SMNs have been complaining enough for offensive BPs lack of power.
Forgetting about dealing damage with BPs only, I tried hitting on a root with a staff, double attack gear and Ifrit's favor. Shitty baylds again.

Healing BP is all we have. And it's not as easy as you make it sound, because we have to compete against other healers and smn.
You said your gain dropped down as soon as smns appeared in the event. I have exactly the same thoughts when i see a bunch of whm joining. It's a two way street.

I wish SMN could operate in its natural state. The deal is SMN natural state blows, and we're deperately waiting for SE to fix it.
Until then, we finally found something we can get benefit from. But i hear ya, i guess SMN hasn't been nerfed enough so far.

Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?

[Malphius]

Believe it. Aside from healing BPs, SMN doesn't get any baylds.
I've done some reives trying buffs BPs only (such as haste, stoneskin, enspells or fenrir's stats), i got nothing.

You said we could still use our avatars offensively. We still get no baylds. SMNs have been complaining enough for offensive BPs lack of power.
Forgetting about dealing damage with BPs only, I tried hitting on a root with a staff, double attack gear and Ifrit's favor. Shitty baylds again.

Healing BP is all we have. And it's not as easy as you make it sound, because we have to compete against other healers and smn.
You said your gain dropped down as soon as smns appeared in the event. I have exactly the same thoughts when i see a bunch of whm joining. It's a two way street.

I wish SMN could operate in its natural state. The deal is SMN natural state blows, and we're deperately waiting for SE to fix it.
Until then, we finally found something we can get benefit from. But i hear ya, i guess SMN hasn't been nerfed enough so far.

Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

[Thundarian]

Telling me that you don't believe that putting a party restriction on summoner would make them worthless means nothing. As someone who only plays summoner at the moment, and is very interested in the numbers, and has tried most things under the sun to see what would result in good bayld gain, I can tell you that putting a party restriction without massive changes to how bayld is calculated would force you to not take summoner to reive's.

Telling me to use my subjob is silly. You are basically arguing to not come as a summoner, because if all I'm getting points for is curing as my subjob, then why not just come as WHM or SCH main for bigger better heals? Also light spirit does essentially nothing. Tried a few reive's using only it, in buffing / healing mode, and it cast maybe one heal on someone else, and threw a few protect / shell 5's, and as far as I could tell, I received no bayld / xp for it doing anything.

Your thread is very inflammatory considering the current feeling of summoners on the board, which is why you got angry responses from some people :P The problem is to fix the issue you are having, other large problems must be fixed first. Until those are fixed, simply changing the function of summoner in reive's removes them completely from the content.

On top of all that, I will add that while you may not think it is balanced, I think being able to buff everyone with blood pacts is fun. It is not fun to not be able to target people outside your party with your abilities. I think making it easier to use your beneficial abilities on all allies is a step in the right direction, and the game should be moved to be 'balanced' more around that. I understand the game is archaic and has limitations, but steps should be made to mitigate those instead of accepting them and moving on.

[RAIST]

I have no issues getting points or Bayld on DD jobs. The topic at hand is that the event is unbalanced in a number of ways and 1 job getting special exception to game mechanics for said event can lead to exclusion of intended function of similar jobs.

So which is it.... one job is taking the xp from everyone else (including yourself), or you are able to get good xp regardless if this other job is so broken that it is stealing the xp from everyone?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Ever see a SAM or BLU in action in there?

Or a well geared PLD?

Methinks you may be a bit confuseded on what is going on out there.

[RAIST]

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

All of which are irrelevant to SoA expansion (aside from acquiring gear from those events, that may impact participation in SoA). In order to get the SoA gear and such....one needs to either participate in reives or do assignments/quests for SoA because of the new currency requirement.

So which is it... let every job find it's little niche to be relevant in Reives, or you relegate them to spamming things like Lost Articles or other fetch or delivery assignments over and over and over.

[Aezelas]

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

I give you Voidwatch.
Not the other 3 anymore.

The solution to your problem wouldn't be nerfing smn, or any other job. But making other BPs useful.
What if whm coudn't target players outside their own party?
One solution would be adjusting the baylds gain so buffs BP, still hitting all players, would give significant baylds. I would leave healing duty to mages.

[Malphius]

Telling me that you don't believe that putting a party restriction on summoner would make them worthless means nothing. As someone who only plays summoner at the moment, and is very interested in the numbers, and has tried most things under the sun to see what would result in good bayld gain, I can tell you that putting a party restriction without massive changes to how bayld is calculated would force you to not take summoner to reive's.

Telling me to use my subjob is silly. You are basically arguing to not come as a summoner, because if all I'm getting points for is curing as my subjob, then why not just come as WHM or SCH main for bigger better heals? Also light spirit does essentially nothing. Tried a few reive's using only it, in buffing / healing mode, and it cast maybe one heal on someone else, and threw a few protect / shell 5's, and as far as I could tell, I received no bayld / xp for it doing anything.

Your thread is very inflammatory considering the current feeling of summoners on the board, which is why you got angry responses from some people :P The problem is to fix the issue you are having, other large problems must be fixed first. Until those are fixed, simply changing the function of summoner in reive's removes them completely from the content.

On top of all that, I will add that while you may not think it is balanced, I think being able to buff everyone with blood pacts is fun. It is not fun to not be able to target people outside your party with your abilities. I think making it easier to use your beneficial abilities on all allies is a step in the right direction, and the game should be moved to be 'balanced' more around that. I understand the game is archaic and has limitations, but steps should be made to mitigate those instead of accepting them and moving on.

I'm sorry that you believe the obvious to be worthless. Every other job is under that same exact restriction at this very moment. Again SMN's feel entitled to be the exception out of a sense of personal entitlement or personal preference.

I'm not telling you to rely on your subjob. You said to me that you can't target other parties with your avatar to which I replied that nor can I target or use my AoE abilities on other parties or alliances. I pointed out to you that you have the same tools at your disposal as any other mage class job to over come those restrictions. SCH only gets Cure 4 and Accession to cure outside parties. The exact same thing you get. Only that right now SMN has a leg up on everyone else because it's avatars STILL posses the ability to hit everyone with in range.

Maintaining that maybe the other support classes should melee is the silly notion. Arguing that SMN be an exception because you feel neglected everywhere else in the game is again, the silly notion.

My thread is far from inflammatory. I've only pointed out the obvious and asked for a reasonable explanation as to why they should be an exception and why they are fine with alienating an entire class in their favor. The response is always the same only the words change a little. Everyone is dancing around the issue but clearly the SMN community here is very self centered. Nobody will come right out and say that they're okay with pushing others out but they sure are framing that mindset quite effectively.

As far as a matter of balance goes I suppose that could be subjective but not in this case. Not only would your proposal ruin the entire balance of the game as opposed to just 1 event it would alienate SMN even more than you claim to be now. Who is gonna bring a few SMN to anything anymore when one SMN can hit an entire ally with PD? One of the only reasons SMN can push out others here is because of the tight spaces. It would be far less effective in the rest of the game.

[Malphius]

All of which are irrelevant to SoA expansion (aside from acquiring gear from those events, that may impact participation in SoA). In order to get the SoA gear and such....one needs to either participate in reives or do assignments/quests for SoA because of the new currency requirement.

So which is it... let every job find it's little niche to be relevant in Reives, or you relegate them to spamming things like Lost Articles or other fetch or delivery assignments over and over and over.

So you're saying that since the expansion came out, SMN is no longer neglected and reigns supreme. Got it.

[RAIST]

here's a little irony for you.

About 2 weeks ago, I actually left SAM and got back on SMN because one wasn't present, and everyone was getting their faces eaten off.

Something that doesn't appear to being considered much, even though it was touched on earlier. SMN fulfills a needed role out there BECAUSE of it's AOE buffs/heals. What happens when that is taken away? Wonder if there will be cries to reset it?

[Malphius]

I give you Voidwatch.
Not the other 3 anymore.

The solution to your problem wouldn't be nerfing smn, or any other job. But making other BPs useful.
What if whm coudn't target players outside their own party?
One solution would be adjusting the baylds gain so buffs BP, still hitting all players, would give significant baylds. I would leave healing duty to mages.

It's not nerfing the job. It's correcting an exception in an event. It effects SMN no where else in the game. SMN can target players outside their party with any number of spells from their support job. I've said this several times. They can still BP their party and spot heal with Cure 4. The same restrictions anyone else would and does have.

[RAIST]

So you're saying that since the expansion came out, SMN is no longer neglected and reigns supreme. Got it.

No, I'm saying that the issue at hand here is SoA content, not the others. If you take out SMN's usefulness, you may virtually remove it from an important portion of the content. See my last post. In some ways, this feature of SMN makes it WANTED in reives.

[Malphius]

here's a little irony for you.

About 2 weeks ago, I actually left SAM and got back on SMN because one wasn't present, and everyone was getting their faces eaten off.

Something that doesn't appear to being considered much, even though it was touched on earlier. SMN fulfills a needed role out there BECAUSE of it's AOE buffs/heals. What happens when that is taken away? Wonder if there will be cries to reset it?

There aren't' any because there are plenty of jobs that can and do heal. Attempt to anyways.

[RAIST]

There aren't' any because there are plenty of jobs that can and do heal. Attempt to anyways.

key word there.. Attempt. What happens when there isn't enough healing and shedding of enmity and the healers die and everyone wipes?

What happens when that healer is a SMN's avatar?

What happens when it's a handful of mages?

Just saying.. need to put all this in the proper perspective.

Oh, yeah... and there are TWO SIDES to a reive. You can always go to the other side if there is too much competition for your usefulness....or go to another reive for that matter. ATM, there's tons of people doing them. Wait until it dies down, then what? lack of support in general and it becomes too much a chore for people to complete them easily enough, then what? Perhaps this is working as intended as an ounce of prevention from SE (I know.. giving them too much credit for the forethought, but who knows?).

[Malphius]

No, I'm saying that the issue at hand here is SoA content, not the others. If you take out SMN's usefulness, you may virtually remove it from an important portion of the content. See my last post. In some ways, this feature of SMN makes it WANTED in reives.

I thought you meant that the other events were worthless now. PD is still very effective and needed in the other events. In the case that you meant they are no longer relevant because of the expansion then nor is the claim that SMN is the red headed step child. They are now raining supreme with the new expansion.

[Malphius]

So which is it.... one job is taking the xp from everyone else (including yourself), or you are able to get good xp regardless if this other job is so broken that it is stealing the xp from everyone?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Ever see a SAM or BLU in action in there?

Or a well geared PLD?

Methinks you may be a bit confused on what is going on out there.

You are the one confused and you're taking certain parts from certain conversations and mashing them together into one paraphrased sentence to misconstrue my points.

1. Yes SMN is taking Bayld from other support classes by making it literally impossible to perform their function when there are more than 1 or 2 SMN's.
2. Yes I can get good Bayld when I change my job class. Which shouldn't be necessary.
3. I stated that I often go as SAM.

Anything else?

[Malphius]

key word there.. Attempt. What happens when there isn't enough healing and shedding of enmity and the healers die and everyone wipes?

What happens when that healer is a SMN's avatar?

What happens when it's a handful of mages?

Just saying.. need to put all this in the proper perspective.

Oh, yeah... and there are TWO SIDES to a reive. You can always go to the other side if there is too much competition for your usefulness....or go to another reive for that matter. ATM, there's tons of people doing them. Wait until it dies down, then what? lack of support in general and it becomes too much a chore for people to complete them easily enough, then what? Perhaps this is working as intended as an ounce of prevention from SE (I know.. giving them too much credit for the forethought, but who knows?).

You cannot simply "go to the other side" of a Reive. Have you even done this event? Have you left Ceizak Battlegrounds?

[RAIST]

I thought you meant that the other events were worthless now. PD is still very effective and needed in the other events. In the case that you meant they are no longer relevant because of the expansion then nor is the claim that SMN is the red headed step child. They are now raining supreme with the new expansion.

But, you're missing the point. If you take this feature away from SMN, you may wind up taking away it's usefulness in reives. Well, at least outside of a very limited scope of being in a party trying to take them on I guess. But, if one is putting forth that level of planning, they are more likely to take the job that is best suited for healing a party. Which jobs would they be considering for that role? SMN? I guess if nothing else is available, maybe.

So, what does the lonely SMN get for it's efforts in reives if it's not in a party?

What does nearly every other job get for it's efforts in reives if not in a party?

That's the problem. You are advocating taking away the one thing that makes them truly desirable in the new content. Having this feature doesn't lessen the desire for other jobs NEARLY as much as it would reduce the desire for SMN if it was taken away. Therfore, it actually does (in SE's twisted way) provide balance for the jobs.

Just think about it. If Garuda/Leviathin/Carbuncle are able to provide just enough healing support to sustain a reive long enough for the HP restore rewards to kick in and refill everyone, it frees up other jobs to focus on other aspects. Couple this with the fact that it is virtually the only way for a SMN to make sure they get decent rewards, while most other jobs aren't faced with that delimma (lets face it, most other jobs are considerably more durable than SMN if they are getting smacked by a mob--even BRD gets access to more durable gears at times)...than you are faced with a serious deficit if you take away the one thing that really gives the job a truly desired slot in the event.

The simple fact that a WHM can get somewhat decent rewards without focusing on healing should be evidence enough that it is NOT required that a healer gets all it's reward from curing, even if it is the one most suited for it. So, what is SMN REALLy taking away from the healer? At least there is another option for those other jobs to still perform relevant roles and get rewarded for their efforts...SMN actually pretty much IS the red-headed step-child here if you really think about it.

[Alhanelem]

SMN is good at something? By Altana! Red alert! AWOOOOGAH! AWOOOGAH! This is NOT a drill! Emergency maintenance! Patch it NOW! GO GO GO! Let's move people! Let's MOVE!
this, this, this, a thousand times this.


You cannot simply "go to the other side" of a Reive. Have you even done this event? Have you left Ceizak Battlegrounds? You most certainly can, as long as you've been to each of the bivouacs.

I can't for the life of me comprehend why someone is upset that a typically very unwanted job is able to perform a useful task in an event and be rewarded for it.

[RAIST]

You cannot simply "go to the other side" of a Reive. Have you even done this event? Have you left Ceizak Battlegrounds?

Umm.. yes... have you not read my posts?

Roots always spawn in the same spots. The campers all gather and wait. Some gather more heavily on one side than the other. If one side is heavier with SMN, just go join the other group.

Now, with the crags and trees, it gets a little more complicated I guess...unless you can use waypoints to navigate around to the other side somehow. That may be too much a bother though. But with the roots, it's pretty easy to choose a side...provided you've done it enough to have a feel for where the roots will pop.

[RAIST]

You are the one confused and you're taking certain parts from certain conversations and mashing them together into one paraphrased sentence to misconstrue my points.

1. Yes SMN is taking Bayld from other support classes by making it literally impossible to perform their function when there are more than 1 or 2 SMN's.
2. Yes I can get good Bayld when I change my job class. Which shouldn't be necessary.
3. I stated that I often go as SAM.

Anything else?

And I just actually went and spent an HOUR IN GAME showing that I did not have to change my job class and still got rewarded for my efforts on a WHITE MAGE without relying on healing while the SUMMONERS were supporting the group.

Now, what DID i change? My TACTICS.

[Malphius]

this, this, this, a thousand times this.

You most certainly can, as long as you've been to each of the bivouacs.

I can't for the life of me comprehend why someone is upset that a typically very unwanted job is able to perform a useful task in an event and be rewarded for it.

You get a time out penalty for leaving a reive. Again not upset they're useful. However it's useful to the point of being unbalanced. Thank you for your comments.

[Dreamin]

You get a time out penalty for leaving a reive. Again not upset they're useful. However it's useful to the point of being unbalanced. Thank you for your comments.

Not here to defend Alhanelem (he can do that himself) but you CAN go to the other side of reive. Especially in Morimar Basalt Fields, it's very easy as long as you get there before the rock crack and block the "bridge". Also, if you were to stand at the right spot, you can heal ppl on both side. I've been going there for Reive and even my mule gets 3k per reive as sch just healing/buffing me (and the occasional healing of other DDs).

[Malphius]

But, you're missing the point. If you take this feature away from SMN, you may wind up taking away it's usefulness in reives. Well, at least outside of a very limited scope of being in a party trying to take them on I guess. But, if one is putting forth that level of planning, they are more likely to take the job that is best suited for healing a party. Which jobs would they be considering for that role? SMN? I guess if nothing else is available, maybe.

So, what does the lonely SMN get for it's efforts in reives if it's not in a party?

What does nearly every other job get for it's efforts in reives if not in a party?

That's the problem. You are advocating taking away the one thing that makes them truly desirable in the new content. Having this feature doesn't lessen the desire for other jobs NEARLY as much as it would reduce the desire for SMN if it was taken away. Therfore, it actually does (in SE's twisted way) provide balance for the jobs.

Just think about it. If Garuda/Leviathin/Carbuncle are able to provide just enough healing support to sustain a reive long enough for the HP restore rewards to kick in and refill everyone, it frees up other jobs to focus on other aspects. Couple this with the fact that it is virtually the only way for a SMN to make sure they get decent rewards, while most other jobs aren't faced with that delimma (lets face it, most other jobs are considerably more durable than SMN if they are getting smacked by a mob--even BRD gets access to more durable gears at times)...than you are faced with a serious deficit if you take away the one thing that really gives the job a truly desired slot in the event.

The simple fact that a WHM can get somewhat decent rewards without focusing on healing should be evidence enough that it is NOT required that a healer gets all it's reward from curing, even if it is the one most suited for it. So, what is SMN REALLy taking away from the healer? At least there is another option for those other jobs to still perform relevant roles and get rewarded for their efforts...SMN actually pretty much IS the red-headed step-child here if you really think about it.

Taking away this feature once again for the 1000th time will put SMN back on a level playing field and would make them operate exactly the way they do literally every where else in the game.

1. This is not a solo event and SMN is a buff job. Party up or fail like any other support job.

2. If you are a DD solo you get the reward of probably dying. Unless a SMN is around to spam BP's.

3. It doen't make them less useful it just makes them less all powerful. Having this feature lessens the desire not from other DD or PLD's but from the actual mages who would have come to cure but didn't because DD is better.

4. This paragraph proves my point. SMN's are able to provide healing support all on their one for the duration of a reive using an unfair advantage.

5. The simple fact that a support class job (again I never brought WHM into this, it's the same for rdm,sch,geo or bard) cannot get rewards by performing their function which by the way is why they're called "jobs" is evidence of how this is an unbalanced game mechanic.

[Malphius]

Not here to defend Alhanelem (he can do that himself) but you CAN go to the other side of reive. Especially in Morimar Basalt Fields, it's very easy as long as you get there before the rock crack and block the "bridge". Also, if you were to stand at the right spot, you can heal ppl on both side. I've been going there for Reive and even my mule gets 3k per reive as sch just healing/buffing me (and the occasional healing of other DDs).

You get a direct penalty for leaving a reive and an indirect penalty for the time you could have been accumulating but were going to the other side. Targeting some people on the other side can some times work but only if there are plenty of people to handle incoming pops. Only really feasible in the starter zones.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Read the entire thread. They are spamming Cure BP's and earning over 1k per tally for it.If by tally, you mean the points you get when the reive end. That's very low. With smns around, I still pull 1-8k on drg. Infact the smns are a good thing, they help keep me alive while I poke things.

[Malphius]

If by tally, you mean the points you get when the reive end. That's very low. With smns around, I still pull 1-8k on drg. Infact the smns are a good thing, they help keep me alive while I poke things.

Nah I mean mini-tally. The one that pops up every minute or so.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Nah I mean mini-tally. The one that pops up every minute or so.And by 1-8k I meant in total with the points throughout. lol

[RAIST]

Taking away this feature once again for the 1000th time will put SMN back on a level playing field and would make them operate exactly the way they do literally every where else in the game.

1. This is not a solo event and SMN is a buff job. Party up or fail like any other support job.

2. If you are a DD solo you get the reward of probably dying. Unless a SMN is around to spam BP's.

3. It doen't make them less useful it just makes them less all powerful. Having this feature lessens the desire not from other DD or PLD's but from the actual mages who would have come to cure but didn't because DD is better.

4. This paragraph proves my point. SMN's are able to provide healing support all on their one for the duration of a reive using an unfair advantage.

5. The simple fact that a support class job (again I never brought WHM into this, it's the same for rdm,sch,geo or bard) cannot get rewards by performing their function which by the way is why they're called "jobs" is evidence of how this is an unbalanced game mechanic.

and YOU are missing the point that others have made earlier.. that SMN does NOT do well in reives without taking advantage of this feature.

So, yes, you are advocating nerfing it in a big way...quite possibly to the point of it not being worth it to go.

The jobs that are in most direct competition with it in the scope of healing can do much better on it's own than SMN when it can't fall back on the healing aspect for bigger rewards.

[Dreamin]

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

Legion, Odin - no one uses PD anymore since the nerf.

VW - SMN is just another proc monkey like every other mage that has a proc there (and some DDs too).

Abyssea solo - you seriously want to talk about SMN's solo ability vs some other jobs??? [No 'full' yellow proc of any 1 magic type alone is NOT worth solo'ing in abyssea at all unless you're talking about just solo'ing tier 1 VNM for skilling]

[Malphius]

and YOU are missing the point that others have made earlier.. that SMN does NOT do well in reives without taking advantage of this feature.

So, yes, you are advocating nerfing it in a big way...quite possibly to the point of it not being worth it to go.

The jobs that are in most direct competition with it in the scope of healing can do much better on it's own than SMN when it can't fall back on the healing aspect for bigger rewards.

Then please come out and say it, that SMN should have an unfair game mechanic working in their favor and that other support class jobs should just gtfo or lolmelee.

[Dreamin]

who said anything about leaving reive???? you sure you have done reive in Morimar Basalt Fields???? You can if you get to the reive before it start, you can just walk over the walkway/bridge to be on the 'other side' of the reive.

[RAIST]

And by 1-8k I meant in total with the points throughout. lol

Think that's something that is being sorely neglected here... the overall reward for participation. Just looking at the rewards for hitting goals is not an accurate reflection. You continuosly get rewarded as time passes. Need to consider your overall earnings.

[Malphius]

Legion, Odin - no one uses PD anymore since the nerf.

VW - SMN is just another proc monkey like every other mage that has a proc there (and some DDs too).

Abyssea solo - you seriously want to talk about SMN's solo ability vs some other jobs??? [No 'full' yellow proc of any 1 magic type alone is NOT worth solo'ing in abyssea at all unless you're talking about just solo'ing tier 1 VNM for skilling]

I can promise you that plenty of people still use PD and it's still very useful. My groups used it extensively after the "nerf" and still continue to do so. Do you do these events and have personal experience?

Everyone in VW is a proc monkey. If you're in the mage party pull out a mage support avatar to support them. SMN is a support job mainly right?

I did say Abyssea soloing right and not proccing? That's right that's exactly what I said. Abbyssea alienated a ton of jobs not just SMN. SMN with the proper atmas can solo most things in abyssea better than most.

[Malphius]

"who said anything about leaving reive???? you sure you have done reive in Morimar Basalt Fields???? You can if you get to the reive before it start, you can just walk over the walkway/bridge to be on the 'other side' of the reive."

When you're doing reives you are usually following a group. It's really the only effective way to do it. Hit one move on to the next with the rest of the group etc... Most reives are started before you get to them or as you approach them by other players.

*edit* You also have no idea when just arriving to a reive before others, what side they will go to.

[Dreamin]

What would you be solo'ing in Abyssea for? exp? if not for +1/+2 (or maybe the KI or item drop). all these these minus the exp gets you better chance if you were able to proc then when you dont proc. Sure, SMN can solo a ton of NMs in abyssea but without proc'ing, there's no point and it just becomes a waste of time (any abyssea farming without proc really is a waste of time for the most part).

[Malphius]

What would you be solo'ing in Abyssea for? exp? if not for +1/+2 (or maybe the KI or item drop). all these these minus the exp gets you better chance if you were able to proc then when you dont proc. Sure, SMN can solo a ton of NMs in abyssea but without proc'ing, there's no point and it just becomes a waste of time (any abyssea farming without proc really is a waste of time for the most part).

Good for low man. Tag a NM with THF for the empy items. I've seen plenty of ppl do it that way while building their empy's.

[Dreamin]

So pick a side if you're not sure which one they going to go onto but normally once ppl get to a reive and if it hasn' started yet, some ppl will automatically go to the other side while some would just wait on the side that they went from. for example, on Ragnarok at least, typically ppl do a counter-clockwise move from 1 reive to the next thoughout the zone. what this mean is that most o the people would just naturally stay on the "left" side with the "right side" being with lesser number of people.

[RAIST]

Then please come out and say it, that SMN should have an unfair game mechanic working in their favor and that other support class jobs should just gtfo or lolmelee.

It's not unfair if it balances out the playing field.

Again, without this mechanic, SMN is virtually useless in reives for gaining XP/Bayld.

And I never said the need to GTFO or lolmelee... and by the way, a decently geared WHM is not exactly lolmelee. Granted, 1k+ hexa's pale in comparison to a 3k+ Shoha.... but considering you're using a toothpick and not a big sword, it's pretty impressive for a mage to pull off.

The point is, you can change your approach. How did Einstein put it? Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. You can switch up your playstyle and melee if you want. You can move to the other side. You can stop following that herd and go to another reive that's not so heavy with SMN's.

It's also not too far fetched to apply your logic to other compa\onents....PLD has an unfair advantage in lair reives and needs to be changed....BRD, SMN, RDM, and BLM shouldn't be able to keep all the mobs slept off to the side of a palm tree while everyone beats on it because people can't get any good xp off the reive.

Do you see the slope yet?

SMN is not "broken" on this event. If anything, it's more a blessing because it allows others to participate in a way that might not otherwise happen. For instance, there might not be anyone fighting the mobs--they could ust sleep everything, beat down the obstruction, ending it with virtually no rewards given at all. BECAUSE SMN can sustain the fighters like it does, it is able to be extended so everyone gets rewarded more in the long run because they are able to achieve various gols that would not be possible without people actually fighting the monsters.

[Dreamin]

Good for low man. Tag a NM with THF for the empy items. I've seen plenty of ppl do it that way while building their empy's.

thought you said SMN solo??? where's the THF coming from if you're solo'ing? Or you only mean solo kill while a THF run around tagging? You know techically you're really NOT solo'ing.

[Malphius]

So pick a side if you're not sure which one they going to go onto but normally once ppl get to a reive and if it hasn' started yet, some ppl will automatically go to the other side while some would just wait on the side that they went from. for example, on Ragnarok at least, typically ppl do a counter-clockwise move from 1 reive to the next thoughout the zone. what this mean is that most o the people would just naturally stay on the "left" side with the "right side" being with lesser number of people.

Okay so you're still guessing and it again raises my early point which again is that you can't simply switch sides.

[Malphius]

thought you said SMN solo??? where's the THF coming from if you're solo'ing? Or you only mean solo kill while a THF run around tagging? You know techically you're really NOT solo'ing.

You're splitting hairs. THF just tags. Not needed but better drops. SMN can handle it w/o a THF.

[RAIST]

Okay so you're still guessing and it again raises my early point which again is that you can't simply switch sides.

So, you realize that this side of the reives is full of people that are making it hard for you to do what you want to do. Now, make a decision. When the horde moves to the next site, you can opt to get on the other side BEFORE IT STARTS. Or, you could just opt to scrap this group, and roll with a different crowd all-together.

[Dreamin]

Think we're just getting off track here. The point here is this (why so many ppl disagreed why SMN needs to be nerf'ed):

SMN is one of the most forgotten job in the eyes of SE (one can debate about BST and RDM as well but SMN is definitely up there). How many other jobs has something NEW for them that was announced almost 2 years ago and still have no deliverable in sight? How many jobs still relies heavily on a level 72 JA as one of their main source of damage at all??? How many jobs whose main source of usefulness is locked to a timer that is 45s at best.

[RAIST]

You're splitting hairs. THF just tags. Not needed but better drops. SMN can handle it w/o a THF.

But the THF hits it, so it's not soloing.

And, if you time it right, you actually can proc NM's in Abyssea. Now, that would be truly solo... but in many cases, it's not a picnic. Some are far easier on NIN, for example... but with far more options to proc with. Oh wait....I just let the cat out of the bag, didn't I? NIN is broken because it can solo stuff....ZOMG! NERF NIN!

/sarcasm

[Demon6324236]

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.That... thats funny, Abyssea is part of where SMN is balanced? When it gets a single atma which works amazingly for it? Odin, Legion, these events are not balanced for SMN, they are events where you used PD and ShockSquall because you could not live without PD and you wanted stuns, so you used the SMN for SS because you wanted to make at least some use out of it after PD.

[Malphius]

It's not unfair if it balances out the playing field.

Again, without this mechanic, SMN is virtually useless in reives for gaining XP/Bayld.

And I never said the need to GTFO or lolmelee... and by the way, a decently geared WHM is not exactly lolmelee. Granted, 1k+ hexa's pale in comparison to a 3k+ Shoha.... but considering you're using a toothpick and not a big sword, it's pretty impressive for a mage to pull off.

The point is, you can change your approach. How did Einstein put it? Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. You can switch up your playstyle and melee if you want. You can move to the other side. You can stop following that herd and go to another reive that's not so heavy with SMN's.

It's also not too far fetched to apply your logic to other compa\onents....PLD has an unfair advantage in lair reives and needs to be changed....BRD, SMN, RDM, and BLM shouldn't be able to keep all the mobs slept off to the side of a palm tree while everyone beats on it because people can't get any good xp off the reive.

Do you see the slope yet?

SMN is not "broken" on this event. If anything, it's more a blessing because it allows others to participate in a way that might not otherwise happen. For instance, there might not be anyone fighting the mobs--they could ust sleep everything, beat down the obstruction, ending it with virtually no rewards given at all. BECAUSE SMN can sustain the fighters like it does, it is able to be extended so everyone gets rewarded more in the long run because they are able to achieve various gols that would not be possible without people actually fighting the monsters.

1. It's not leveling the playing field. It's destroying it in favor of SMN.

2. You do not know that and based off my on use of Cure 4 I find it a dubious claim. Regardless again that would be for SE to adjust as well with point gains.

3. You are saying exactly that with your argument you won't just admit it. In fact you just did just almost say it directly. Again telling a mage to melee. You've seen a 1k hexa on a root? Cause WHM sure won't last out in the open swinging at the PLD's mobs.

4. You're right for once. It's insane to try and get you to acknowledge any sort of reason. I'm going to stop.

5. PLD does not have an unfair advantage. If functions exactly the same in Reives as it does every where else in the game. BLM or BLU can sleep anything they want anywhere in the game. Again these are the standard operating mechanics of those jobs. I also would argue that trying to keep all these slept is suicide but to each his own. A well organized group could probably swing it.

6. I do see the slope. A very uphill battle to meet or even come close to performing a support job roll vs a SMN in Reives.

7. Only DD get rewarded with this broken game play mechanic. All the other mages get told to go away or melee.

You really do fail to see any of my points from anything other than someone that really likes to play SMN and anything for SMN is just.

[Malphius]

That... thats funny, Abyssea is part of where SMN is balanced? When it gets a single atma which works amazingly for it? Odin, Legion, these events are not balanced for SMN, they are events where you used PD and ShockSquall because you could not live without PD and you wanted stuns, so you used the SMN for SS because you wanted to make at least some use out of it after PD.

Please quote me as saying SMN was balanced in abyssea. I infact just said that abyssea shut out many jobs not just SMN. Abyssea was also unbalanced from a proc perspective. I did say that SMN is able to solo most things in abyssea with the right atmas. Something that is not in dispute as I can see.

[Alhanelem]

You get a time out penalty for leaving a reive. Again not upset they're useful. However it's useful to the point of being unbalanced. Thank you for your comments.
You don't leave the rieve, you pick a side to stand on before it starts.

[Malphius]

You don't leave the rieve, you pick a side to stand on before it starts.

But I was told to just go to the other side! It's very easy and all.

[Demon6324236]

Please quote me as saying SMN was balanced in abyssea. I infact just said that abyssea shut out many jobs not just SMN. Abyssea was also unbalanced from a proc perspective. I did say that SMN is able to solo most things in abyssea with the right atmas. Something that is not in dispute as I can see.Last line of the post you quoted in your post.


Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?Looked like you were replying to that part, in which case, you were claiming it was balanced.

The fact you are using Abyssea as an example of why SMN should be ok anyways is stupid in and of itself as Abyssea is irrelevant in this matter. The content is stupid easy, it has been for a long time, there is no reason why this should be an excuse for SMN to be nerfed in this content.

Wanna know what though, your whining, acting like SMN is some mega OP job which is stealing your ability to do anything, guess what, the job has few real uses. Uses, not abuses, people abused it in things like Odin and Legion, using it for only a single ability and nothing more, after which they used it for another ability which is not as good as its primary use, or other jobs performing the same action. Another event this job has use in is WoE, Walk of Echoes is another area which follows these same rules even. It has mobs which have Alliance hate, same as here, it allows BPs to hit everyone in or out of Alliance, same as here, its fairly similar, and guess what, its fine, because it works!

[Spiritmage]

I don't know if I missed anything or not, but by skimming these posts from the last several hours, it seems like you're the only one that has it out for SMN over this.

[Malphius]

Last line of the post you quoted in your post.

Looked like you were replying to that part, in which case, you were claiming it was balanced.

The fact you are using Abyssea as an example of why SMN should be ok anyways is stupid in and of itself as Abyssea is irrelevant in this matter. The content is stupid easy, it has been for a long time, there is no reason why this should be an excuse for SMN to be nerfed in this content.

Wanna know what though, your whining, acting like SMN is some mega OP job which is stealing your ability to do anything, guess what, the job has few real uses. Uses, not abuses, people abused it in things like Odin and Legion, using it for only a single ability and nothing more, after which they used it for another ability which is not as good as its primary use, or other jobs performing the same action. Another event this job has use in is WoE, Walk of Echoes is another area which follows these same rules even. It has mobs which have Alliance hate, same as here, it allows BPs to hit everyone in or out of Alliance, same as here, its fairly similar, and guess what, its fine, because it works!

I was very specific when I said abyssea solo. Don't see how that could be misconstrued.

I didn't say SMN should be nerfed. I've never said that. Again the SMN community putting words in my mouth. I said the event needs adjusting. The result is SMN loses an ability it can't use anywhere else in the game.

I can't talk about Abyssea but you can talk about WoE? That's the pot calling the kettle black.

People still use SMN and PD in Odin and Legion. Present day. Not abused at all. If you don't do these events that's your fault. I've saw huge offensive BP numbers in Legion. Maybe it's the players not the job?

How many SMN's do you see in WoE btw? Hoards. You're helping me here as that part of my position has been that this is a tactic you will start seeing more and more as this expansion goes on.

[Svens]

Considering the tight quarters for colonization/lair reives filled to the brim with enemies capable of heavy AoE damage to everyone regardless of party/alliance status, I for one welcome our SMN overlords.

[Siven]

Why not try to debuff and buff to get points if you're having trouble healing? Honestly, even with two summoners you shouldn't have a problem landing heals. You say that summoners directly reduce the experience of others, but honestly so do any actions from anyone who isn't just DD, and half the time DD zerg down the roots and ruin it for everyone anyway. You just need to find what isn't being occupied. I can get awesome bayld as blu, but all it takes is someone occupying my niche to reduce bayld, so I use different spells. Start landing paralyzes and debuffs on mobs, people rarely do that and it's extremely helpful.

[Demon6324236]

I was very specific when I said abyssea solo. Don't see how that could be misconstrued.Because Abyssea is stupid easy and irrelevant content in the grand scheme of things when almost every job in there is able to do things far beyond its wildest dreams...


I didn't say SMN should be nerfed. I've never said that. Again the SMN community putting words in my mouth. I said the event needs adjusting. The result is SMN loses an ability it can't use anywhere else in the game.Exactly, inside of this event its losing an ability from its current status, that sounds like a nerf to me!


I can't talk about Abyssea but you can talk about WoE? That's the pot calling the kettle black.Because WoE does not have a ton of Atma which make every job overpowered beyond its wildest dreams, yes, WoE is another event just like Reives are, without any of the Atma, Abyssites, or Cruor buffs that Abyssea has.


People still use SMN and PD in Odin and Legion. Present day. Not abused at all. If you don't do these events that's your fault. I've saw huge offensive BP numbers in Legion. Maybe it's the players not the job?Using PD as a primary use for a job is abuse in and of itself, no different than SCH was abused for Embrava, you brought the job for a single ability, everything else it did was simply a bonus to make the job less useless after that fact. If you want a DD in Legion you do not bring a SMN, you bring a WAR or DRK, the fact they do a few good BPs for damage is simply a bonus which offsets its normal worthlessness.


How many SMN's do you see in WoE btw? Hoards. You're helping me here as that part of my position has been that this is a tactic you will start seeing more and more as this expansion goes on.Oh no, another event where SMN can actually perform as a job rather than an Invincibility Whore, what will the world do!?

[RAIST]

1. It's not leveling the playing field. It's destroying it in favor of SMN.

2. You do not know that and based off my on use of Cure 4 I find it a dubious claim. Regardless again that would be for SE to adjust as well with point gains.

3. You are saying exactly that with your argument you won't just admit it. In fact you just did just almost say it directly. Again telling a mage to melee. You've seen a 1k hexa on a root? Cause WHM sure won't last out in the open swinging at the PLD's mobs.

4. You're right for once. It's insane to try and get you to acknowledge any sort of reason. I'm going to stop.

5. PLD does not have an unfair advantage. If functions exactly the same in Reives as it does every where else in the game. BLM or BLU can sleep anything they want anywhere in the game. Again these are the standard operating mechanics of those jobs. I also would argue that trying to keep all these slept is suicide but to each his own. A well organized group could probably swing it.

6. I do see the slope. A very uphill battle to meet or even come close to performing a support job roll vs a SMN in Reives.

7. Only DD get rewarded with this broken game play mechanic. All the other mages get told to go away or melee.

You really do fail to see any of my points from anything other than someone that really likes to play SMN and anything for SMN is just.

wth do all the numbers point to? lol

no, was beating on the mobs--was consistantly popping off right around 1k, depending on the level of boost at the time. Never could get it to work out where I could busrt off a light or something though...was always gravitation or darkness... a little disappointing, but still fun.

And yes, I did take a beating (as noted in my previous posts). A few times when a mob got out of hand, I turned and reposed it (pesky wabbits). I evaded, I parried, I got hit, I regened, got the reive goal and had hp restored....got healed from the avatars....rinse/repeat. you know... all that good stuff that you see happen when you are on SAM. Off and on we had garuda, leviathin, and carby with us on one side, a garuda on the other--died twice when I went to that side with just one avatar, but still got 480 xp at the end even though I was idling in weakened state for most of it, which amused the hell out of me. After that, I opted to stay with the larger group for safety's sake.

getting the feeling you've never seiously meleed on WHM.... which is a real shame. WHINJA is fun. WHM/SAM is even more fun at times.

LOL.. I'm failing to see reason...when you've been provided concrete examples. ooooo... k.

Guess you weren't catching the reference to PLD. You have no problem with a PLD holding an entire reive, raking in all that credit while others are left with eeking out what they can by picking off the mobs until the nest gets beat down and it ends. But a SMN sustaining everyone so they have the same fair shot at rewards while pets beat down the roots/crag, that's a no-no and must go, even though this benefits everyone by meare virtue of extending the event longer.

The example of sleeping the mobs while the obstacle gets cleared is viable tactic... and used quite regularly I might add. I've even used my Shiva for it a few times to backup the BRD. But no... that's not robbing ANYONE of their opportunity for greater rewards....

And yes, I enjoy SMN... when I can use it well enough to be on it, but didn't come to it really until I found a niche for it with WotG fights. I have 10 jobs I can play, for the most part decently geared, but nothing amazing...always considered myself a casual player. Otherwise, I'm usually on something like NIN, SAM, MNK, WAR. Once in a while I get nostalgaic and blow things up on BLM (my first to 75 ages ago). For the most part these days, it's usually SMN or NIN, other jobs as needed for proc or to fill a role in a strategy--or if we are just wanting to mix things up for the helluvit.

Not sure why any of that matters, just commenting since you went there. My reason for posting in this thread is to preserve what I and apparently others see as being more or less fair for a job that is otherwise treated rather poorly by either SE or the players (in some cases both). It seams more like someone got upset because the ginger kid figured out a way to upstage them in an event they expected they had all rights to be top dog in, and regardless of how people try to show them ways to overcome the disparity, they just want to dig in their heals and cry foul over the whole deal. At least I've put some effort into substantiating my claim that there is something that someone can do to level the playing field....seems more like you are the one that is objecting to reasonable thought in that arena.

And I doubt that only DD are getting rewarded with athis "broken game mechanic". I wasn't just meleeing in my litle excursion. I was enfeebling, doing magic damage, dealing physical damage, taking damage, recovering damage. I could likely do the same on my BLM or my NIN, just haven't ventured out there with it yet to see how it behaves....simply because it's been so much easier with my heavier hitters (plus, I've been breaking off to farm items and skill guard on MNK here and there too, and changing all that gear out in moghouse is a pain).

So, in summation... no, I don't simply like to play SMN and see anything for SMN as being just. What I do see as being just is a mechanic that makes an otherwise difficult task easy to do. Their is no denying that having a prepared SMN in a reive makes it easier for everyone else there. It is also pretty obvious that without using this feature, SMN's rewards would be absurdly low, so low to the point that it could very well disuade their participation in the event (think back to BRD in campaign, ages ago I know, but it's kinda in line with it). Loosing the benefit of this mechanic could eventually make reives untenable if it causes participation to drop because of issues with survivablilty.

In light of these points, I would rather they not remove this feature but instead the players work to find an alternative way for everyone to participate. That is what I did. I had an idea founded entirely in my combined experiences with beseiged, campaign, and bastion for jobs that were not rewarde very well for their typical roles--and applied them to this event. And, was pleasently surprised when it actually worked out rather well.

There are alternatives to castrating a job in order to balance this event out.

There's a scary thought....where would the human race be if the solution to gender equality was castration.

Sorry, random thought that hit me after I typed that line....but the absurdity of the statement shows the absurdity of the proposal.

Job X can't progress well because job Y is better at doing something job X is supposed to be able to do, therefore take that away from job Y so that X can do it (although, less effectively in the scope of the event). It doesn't matter that that one thing is about the only thing that job Y can do to contribute significantly and that job A-X have lots of other ways they can contribute, or can otherwise rectify their issues. No, job Y, who basically has no other option but to repeatadly do this one thing over and over again to advance on par with everyone else, needs to learn it's role and shut it's mouth so that everyone else can be the winners, leaving job Y limping along at a reduced capacity.

Yeah.... job Y supporters are the unreasonable ones.

[Malphius]

Because Abyssea is stupid easy and irrelevant content in the grand scheme of things when almost every job in there is able to do things far beyond its wildest dreams...

And SMN isn't? My point though was that WoE is also out dated. I do agree that WoE is more difficult. However when looking at the ability SMN have there it's not as big of a deal as the goal is to defeat the boss and you are rewarded with treasure. The reward from reives is points based upon creating large numbers in terms of cure or damage done. The ability in this event excludes an entire class from obtaining those rewards.


Exactly, inside of this event its losing an ability from its current status, that sounds like a nerf to me!

Nah just putting it on the same playing field as all the other mages.


Exactly, inside of this event its losing an ability from its current status, that sounds like a nerf to me!

SMN is more like SCH than a DD. I used to main SCH all the time till they changed embrava. But before hand I was perfectly happy with being used for Embrava and then spot curing or baby sitting the PLD. Like me the SMN's use PD and then spot cure and/or use offensive BP's on the NM's. Same thing in Odin. Why is this so different? What roll is it that the SMN community wants to fill?


Oh no, another event where SMN can actually perform as a job rather than an Invincibility Whore, what will the world do!?

Again plese tell me what event SMN is not welcome in. I can't think of one. I'm sorry you're not happy with one of the most powerful and most needed 2hrs in the game. That has nothing to do with this topic though which is that an entire job class is going to be pushed out of Reives and the only thing that SMN's can say is that they deserve to because they don't like playing SMN.

[Malphius]

Why not try to debuff and buff to get points if you're having trouble healing? Honestly, even with two summoners you shouldn't have a problem landing heals. You say that summoners directly reduce the experience of others, but honestly so do any actions from anyone who isn't just DD, and half the time DD zerg down the roots and ruin it for everyone anyway. You just need to find what isn't being occupied. I can get awesome bayld as blu, but all it takes is someone occupying my niche to reduce bayld, so I use different spells. Start landing paralyzes and debuffs on mobs, people rarely do that and it's extremely helpful.

While all those functions are useful to perform they are not useful in the accumulation of obtaining points. With DD vs DD it's very different. It's a race to the bottom not a race to the top. Enemies and roots/rocks/trees etc... have MASSIVE hp numbers so that any DD can pick a mob and spend some time on it thus fulfilling their function and obtaining Bayld. With mages it's a race to the top and the players around you have very low HP numbers. 1 BP ability from a SMN completely cures them full until another few AoE go off and the next SMN uses BP.

Moving to another zone would help but certain zones obtain better points than others. Certain zones have more reives than others. I also disagree with the "if you don't like it leave" philosophy. This game is very bandwagony. In two weeks tops there will be 10 SMN in the salt fields spamming BP's.

You made all valid points but the results are the same in the end.

[RAIST]

Nah just putting it on the same playing field as all the other mages.

Actually, no. It lowers their potential in a major way. The other mages have considerably more options for increasing rewards in comparison. That seems to be a very important point that keeps getting missed.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Think that's something that is being sorely neglected here... the overall reward for participation. Just looking at the rewards for hitting goals is not an accurate reflection. You continuosly get rewarded as time passes. Need to consider your overall earnings.Yeah, I tested out smn. You don't realy get as much as a DD can overall, it's just a LOT lazier.

[Demon6324236]

That has nothing to do with this topic though which is that an entire job class is going to be pushed out of Reives and the only thing that SMN's can say is that they deserve to because they don't like playing SMN.You cant come to an event because another job is taking your place? Level another job... It may not be SMN but guess what, I main RDM, I play it a ton when I can, but I get excluded from almost every event in the game. Your whining about not getting to get a lot of points in a single event insults me honestly, because my situation is much worse than yours is, yet you have to argue with everyone who disagrees for hours about how SMN is broken.

Simple truth incoming! You can deal without going in Reives and getting a ton of points, if you go on WHM and know it gets low points then you instantly chose to subject yourself to that sub-par point gain. The easiest solution to that problem is leveling another job, or dealing with the low points you chose anyways, end of story.

[RAIST]

You cant come to an event because another job is taking your place? Level another job... It may not be SMN but guess what, I main RDM, I play it a ton when I can, but I get excluded from almost every event in the game. Your whining about not getting to get a lot of points in a single event insults me honestly, because my situation is much worse than yours is, yet you have to argue with everyone who disagrees for hours about how SMN is broken.

Simple truth incoming! You can deal without going in Reives and getting a ton of points, if you go on WHM and know it gets low points then you instantly chose to subject yourself to that sub-par point gain. The easiest solution to that problem is leveling another job, or dealing with the low points you chose anyways, end of story.

or <gasp> try something different...whatever that may be.

Very few things are "written in stone" with this game. You can usually find different ways to approach a problem within the game's framework, just sometimes takes a little more effort or planning is all.

[Caketime]

Personally I like when a SMN shows up and starts spamming buffs I've already given out, that allows me to whip out the hammer and destroy things with my PLD buddy and hand out raises when BP timers are down and somebody gets floored. If someone wants to muscle in on healing and support I'll gladly move aside and then step back in to pick up the broken bodies, but not out of the kindness of my heart. In fact if I didn't get points for it I'd just let the dead people stay there. :)

[Malphius]

You cant come to an event because another job is taking your place? Level another job... It may not be SMN but guess what, I main RDM, I play it a ton when I can, but I get excluded from almost every event in the game. Your whining about not getting to get a lot of points in a single event insults me honestly, because my situation is much worse than yours is, yet you have to argue with everyone who disagrees for hours about how SMN is broken.

Simple truth incoming! You can deal without going in Reives and getting a ton of points, if you go on WHM and know it gets low points then you instantly chose to subject yourself to that sub-par point gain. The easiest solution to that problem is leveling another job, or dealing with the low points you chose anyways, end of story.

How is your situation worse than mine? You chose to level jobs you don't enjoy playing or only enjoy playing as long as you can choose the roll they should play. I'm also sorry you can't always go on the job you want to. Life is hard. Perfect reasoning for why SMN deserves special treatment in this event.

Thank you for imparting me with the "Simple truth". Once again for the 100th time I never brought WHM into this. Other people did to which I then said I said I come on a multitude of jobs some of them being mage jobs such as SCH and WHM. It depends on what I see before I go out there. After I get there however I can't control what else comes after that.

Simple Truth(TM), you are self centered and greedy just like a few of the other people that have chosen to say they deserve special treatment (at the expense of others) and that everyone else that doesn't like it can gtfo.

[RAIST]

Once again for the 100th time I never brought WHM into this. Other people did to which I then said I said I come on a multitude of jobs some of them being mage jobs such as SCH and WHM.

wait... what?

Original Post:

So I was doing Colonization Reives in Morimar Basalt Fields today. I was on WHM having a great time healing my party, buffing, doing my job, etc... when out of no where come 4 summoners and that's when things went down hill.

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

BP's in Reives needs limited to party only or this is going to become PLD + SMN + DD only event.

Sure sounds like this thread basically exists because some summoners reduced your rewards from curing on WHM.

I'd imagine that's probably why it keeps coming back up. Or am I missing some hidden message? Do I need to make a Super Secret Spy Decoder (http://www.nickjr.com/printables/super-secret-spy-decoder.jhtml)?

[Malphius]

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

You're right I did mention WHM first. What I should have more properly said was that I was never making this about WHM vs SMN. Also in the original post I said "other support class jobs" which has been what all this has been about. It was after this point that WHM kept being brought back into this. I would be making the same statements regardless of what mage job I was on.

And you were right the first time when you said "killed" my rewards.

[Mizuharu]

Reives are Campaign Battles (more or less.) Because it was near impossible for SMN to get any exp in Campaign Battles, Square-Enix made it so that Blood Pacts (which we can only use every 45secs with gear btw) will affect all with allied tags so that they may obtain exp/allied notes. Same thing with Reives.

I say the game is working as intended. SMNs have it hard enough at everything that isn't Walk of Echoes and Campaign Battles (talking about events where you need large numbers.) SMNs were only brought to other things to Perfect Defense. But those were all just alts people burned to alexander. And then the Perfect Defense patch comes in, and back to no more summoners.

So give Summoners a break.

[Rekin]

If your argument is to level the playing field then WHM/RDM/SCH/etc shouldn't be allowed to heal/buff/anything to anyone outside their own parties as well. Additionally they must suffer universal 45sec cool downs on all their spells after using any single one of them. Hows that for balance.

[Ketaru]

Just thought I'd chime in with 2 comments in response to no one in particular but:

1) You all know it would be epic if the party restriction on Healing Breeze was lifted. We'd all come /BLU and spam it all day. Nobody would ever die again.

2) BST's Lucky Lulush- God, I love that rabbit- is just as capable of healing like a Summoner boss with Wild Carrot. I don't why the rest of you guys were showing up with the hippogryph or slug. But after doing a few Reives as a BST with rarab, I'm never doing Reive as RDM again. Being able to mass heal 20 or so people is just that much more rewarding in Bayld.

[Kaeoni]

Community effort? Hastes for everyone? Group cures?

Who needs that when you can just wipe because your Whm/Sch/Rdm's ect can't:

Target you fast enough through 50+ targets,
See your life bars 24/7,
Accidently try curing themselves, because you blinked your gear.

Clearly the answer is staring us straight in the face.

[Demon6324236]

How is your situation worse than mine? You chose to level jobs you don't enjoy playing or only enjoy playing as long as you can choose the roll they should play. I'm also sorry you can't always go on the job you want to. Life is hard. Perfect reasoning for why SMN deserves special treatment in this event.My thoughts exactly, we can not make every job useful in every event, WHM is useful in almost every single event, so is SCH, or really any healing job, those DDs aren't going to heal themselves after all! Jobs like SMN with healing powers restricted to parties are often worthless in healing though, they can only heal their party, they must take up a useful spot for DDs or buffers, where as WHM, SCH, RDM, even PLD, can cure across an Alliance or outside of a party. Sounds like a great reason to give SMN special treatment, I agree.

As for my situation being worse... In the event we are talking about WHM specifically, you are needed in almost every single event in the game, the few which you are not amazing in are low man events, where SCH excels, like Salvage, or Meeble Burrows. However, RDM, thats a job no one wants anywhere really, we can do it all, but were masters of none. BLU has us beat when you want a DD who can provide some lighter support, so no calling on us for that, SCH thrashes our abilities of Light and Dark magic alone, WHM and BLM obviously beat us in both of the individual magic fields, and DDs crush our melee damage because our gear is lousy. So how are our jobs different? How is my situation worse? WHMs, SCHs, they get called on for a few different events, people take them places often, RDM is left in a corner, so to see you complaining about a single event where you are not very effective and you feel as though these jobs are unfairly left out, it makes me realize just how you fail to understand my position. I would kill to be able to use my RDM in most event and be excluded from an event or two because of another job, instead, I am excluded from almost every event, and only brought when no one else will come and I am willing to. No offense, but don't you dare try to compare your situation of being left out of an event or two to my situation I have been stuck with for more than a couple years as RDM.


Simple Truth(TM), you are self centered and greedy just like a few of the other people that have chosen to say they deserve special treatment (at the expense of others) and that everyone else that doesn't like it can gtfo.Yes, I am self centered and greedy, I use my SMN in here so much. Here, allow me to link you to my character on AH.com where you can see my Lv6 SMN... (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Demonjustin)

See that? Not self centered, not benefiting from this at all in any way that you are not if you come as a melee job, in fact, I get punished, I get SMNs casting haste on me, an annoyance as a RDM where my Haste lasts well over 3 times as long as theirs. Tell me, how I am self centered again?

[Metalgod]

Anyone try gearing whm/sam for Cataclysm spammage???

I actually see no reason to nerf smn in colonization reives. They benefit the group by powercuring and aoe buffing the masses. I went and did SMN/WHM and WAR/SAM tonite and saw no real difference in my SMN getting bayld and my other character on war spamming fell cleave and fury.

[Caketime]

Anyone try gearing whm/sam for Cataclysm spammage???

Yes. It's awesome.

[Xerius]

From a SMN's perspective you're stealing all their Bayld with your Curaga's. Obviously, the more people you have the less Bayld everyone is going to get overall.

[Camiie]

As a SMN I appreciate that my BPs affect everyone. As a DD I appreciate the free buffs and cures. This is a boon to the vast majority of players doing Reives. Since the positive outweighs the negative, I see no reason for a nerf.

As far as SMN goes: it's squishy, a terrible melee, is almost entirely reliant on its pets which are also fairly squishy, and is hampered by a lengthy JA timer. If you want to remove the super-AOE ability from SMN then you put them in a far worse boat than your WHM or any other job. You have options at your disposal. SMN really doesn't.

[Caketime]

SMN has just as many options as WHM, get some DA pieces and wear a couple of accuracy rings, maybe chew on some sushi and beat roots while you spam buffs and cures. Stop acting like you have no options other than spamming Wards.

[Camiie]

SMN has just as many options as WHM, get some DA pieces and wear a couple of accuracy rings, maybe chew on some sushi and beat roots while you spam buffs and cures. Stop acting like you have no options other than spamming Wards.

A WHM is telling a SMN they have options? lawl that's rich. WHM has nearly all of Vana'diel on a silver platter, but SMN is the one with "options." You really think I don't melee and use everything I have at my disposal? Don't make stupid, baseless assumptions.

Even taking the rest of the game out of the equation WHM is superior to SMN as a melee, as a healer by a long shot, and is more durable yet somehow that's still not enough. Not only do you have to keep those advantages, you want to take SMN's away so that yours are even more advantageous. What a bunch of nonsense.

[Caketime]

Wait, when did I say I want to take away SMN's advantages? I don't support nerfing their AoE or anything, I was just suggesting a way to help improve what sounded to me like unsatisfactory results being reported by my fellow mage bros. There's no need to be so salty.

E: SMN has higher staff skill than WHM and has access to most of the same melee gear WHM does. Just saying.

[Lithera]

What about Blus or Bsts who solo rieves in your line of thought that would be giving them an unfair advantage over the other jobs. Wanted to do that layer rieve? Too bad that blu just soloed it... Get there faster next time.

[Ketaru]

Community effort? Hastes for everyone? Group cures?

Who needs that when you can just wipe because your Whm/Sch/Rdm's ect can't:

Target you fast enough through 50+ targets,
See your life bars 24/7,
Accidently try curing themselves, because you blinked your gear.

Clearly the answer is staring us straight in the face.

An even better solution would be for Curaga, Accession'd Cure, Healing Breeze, and that Waltz thingy DNC to also have the ability to target everyone. Not everything must be about nerfing.

[Caketime]

An even better solution would be for Curaga, Accession'd Cure, Healing Breeze, and that Waltz thingy DNC to also have the ability to target everyone. Not everything must be about nerfing.

I like this, so we can all share the responsibility of support, and also to help the SMN bro out when Ward is on cooldown.

[Kaeoni]

An even better solution would be for Curaga, Accession'd Cure, Healing Breeze, and that Waltz thingy DNC to also have the ability to target everyone. Not everything must be about nerfing.

Sounds good to me, I hate nerfs like you do man. It just discourages me when I see people complaining that "one job can't do one thing another job can and here is the reason it should get nerfed" because my job is better, for, sorry, what reasons?

This game is fairly unique in the fashion you can have multiple jobs leveled on the same character. It's pretty cool that we can so easily share a lot of our gear with similar jobs. I say similar loosely, keep some originality, I'm all for fair, but there needs to be some kind of line.

[mistmonster]

I'm mad.. I went to solo reive on SMN today and there were like 5 bst there spamming wild carrot... dey terk mah jerb!! nerf nerf!
(Just kidding, got 4k plus. melee were looking a little rough from all the rabbit aoe spam.. I think they were happy that the bsts and I was there)

[Manux]

as of now there nothing to be done as there are jobs out there that have there ups and down side people have forgotten that this all so can be done in campaign battle. you got other jobs that that can do 7k+ ws damage sam/mnk/drk.

Reives is for Smn
dynamis currency is for Bst

[Babekeke]

When I do Reives on my pink DNC, big boys come along and kill the mob that I've been fighting for 5 mins and got down to 90%HP. Thus meaning I don't get as many points. Can we make it so that noone else can touch my mob please so I can get more points?


An inaccurate analogy. If your pink DNC isn't well geared that's a direct result as to the effort you have put into it's gear. No matter how much I put into any other support class it will never have the ability to hit all members outside of a party with AoE's. This is a unique advantage given to one job in one event.

Your pink DNC is also a support job / light DD hybrid, not a pure DD so you should be using your TP to heal and debuff. I would also suggest that anyone using curor bought abyssea gear move onto Empy gear or VW gear instead of trying to skip to the end. Especially if it takes you 5 minutes to shave off 10% of an enemies HP.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHH!

[Olor]

What a terrible suggestion - you'd ruin smn for every event cause you are too lazy to do more than 1 action in rieves? Get a life. Being able to buff outside of party is one of the only things smn has going for it. Nerfing that would make WoE even more terrible than it already is.

Maybe they should nerf whm so it can't cure anyone outside of party with their native spells, like BLU mage. Why should whm be able to cure outside party when BLU can't?

Do you see what a dumb argument that is?

I'd like to see more jobs be able to buff outside party (COR and BRD and GEO and BLU) not less

[Caketime]

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHH!

http://imgur.com/KGPlbwo.gif

[Ceilia]

SMN is good at something? By Altana! Red alert! AWOOOOGAH! AWOOOGAH! This is NOT a drill! Emergency maintenance! Patch it NOW! GO GO GO! Let's move people! Let's MOVE!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SMN is my only job I care about. Revies have been super fun for me. Don't nerf SMN at least without giving us something else to do. I dunno like maybe scale our BP:wards past lvl 75?

[Manux]

kind of pointless nerfing it if they do it I would like to see bst get nerf since its the only job that can solo well in dynamis and also a lot of players chosen bst for that reason. Now they will have to pick smn for Colonization Reives i guess it make sense.

[Malphius]

SMN has just as many options as WHM, get some DA pieces and wear a couple of accuracy rings, maybe chew on some sushi and beat roots while you spam buffs and cures. Stop acting like you have no options other than spamming Wards.

This ftw. :cool:

[Malphius]

From a SMN's perspective you're stealing all their Bayld with your Curaga's. Obviously, the more people you have the less Bayld everyone is going to get overall.

Curaga only hits the party a WHM is in. Just like with my proposal pets would only hit party members with their AoE buffs.

[Malphius]

Sounds good to me, I hate nerfs like you do man. It just discourages me when I see people complaining that "one job can't do one thing another job can and here is the reason it should get nerfed" because my job is better, for, sorry, what reasons?

This game is fairly unique in the fashion you can have multiple jobs leveled on the same character. It's pretty cool that we can so easily share a lot of our gear with similar jobs. I say similar loosely, keep some originality, I'm all for fair, but there needs to be some kind of line.

Again it's been about removing the special ability that SMN's get with their BP's in this event. Because it's an event change it would also impact BST. Try to understand that the SMN job would not be nerfed. Nor would BST. This event actually increases their ability several times fold while leaving everyone else out.

How would SMN or BST respond if in abyssea every one could get atmas or curror buffs but them or in VW that anyone could use atmicite but them? Given the attitude on this board to the things i've said, I expect it would be far worse than mine. I would see several "I'm quitting" posts. I'm not salty about it because I can come on anything but I do think it needs addressed as it provides an unbalanced event. This isn't like Campaign or WoE because those are "open" battle fields. Reives is quite compressed and tight on space. So either they can open up the battle area way more than it already is, or they need to change something else with the way the event plays.

[Spiritmage]

No really, just stop. You seriously are the only person here that is complaining about this. Everyone else is just fine with the way pet AoEs work. Yes SMN is one of my main jobs, and no I have not been on it since SoA came out.

This has been around since Campaign came out years ago, and if it hasn't been changed in all that time, then it must be working as intended. The way you sound, it's like you're standing in a corner or something and just spamming Curaga and buffs. Do you even go to the root/rock and start hitting it? A few nights ago I went out with a group as BRD/DNC, did 3 songs (double March and a Ballad on a SMN), used Curing/Divine Waltz occasionally when I saw HP bars drop, and just whacked the rocks around, and sometimes an occasional mob, and still got close to 500 EXP/Bayld per evaluation.

Point is, there is more to do then just your "natural" job's role. Start thinking outside the box.

(I do apologize if this does sound harsh, I just woke up from a nap and kinda irritated, but I felt I just had to express my opinion on this).

[Quetzacoatl]

Pretty much the worst job I guess for this is GEO, because your GEO spells earn you basically no contribution.

NukeMoar.jpg

You can also rack up points by using -Ra spells on normal mobs with either a PLD supertanking mobs or nearby Roots/Rocks. /SCH is a little tough to use for Dark Arts/Addendum: Black + Manifestation Sleep, but it gets the job done as far as personal crowd control goes (which is why I hope GEO gets a bump in Enfeebling skill in the future and their own line of -Ra Enfeebles like Sleepra, Bindra and Breakra).

And usually since I don't get many invites for Reives on my GEO, I just stack Indi-Refresh and Geo-Acumen onto myself. Either that or when I can get my club capped and my GEO melee gear figured out, I'll go whack on them at some point

[Ryolen]

Do waltzes net you similar points as cure spells?

[Malphius]

This has been around since Campaign came out years ago

Expect this to follow a very similar fate.

[RAIST]

This has been around since Campaign came out years ago


Expect this to follow a very similar fate.

I don't recall there being much chatter over this in campaign....but then again, I wasn't using SMN for it much until after everyone quit doing it. If anything, I think it was actually embraced...at least it was in my circle of friends. I actually meleed a lot on BLM in the early days. Man, that was so much fun...making chains, bursting on them, eating lots of dirt....getting back on my feet and running to renew tags (hoping to not get raped by the boss's AOE at the NPC). We just raked in the xp/notes, rarely ever sticking to the roles our jobs were "intended" to play....good times.

[Icefall]

You've stated that you have a melee job. You don't appear interested in playing SMN main yourself. So why not team up with these SMN gangs instead of trying to work against them? You do your dd thing, they do their heal thing, you get sweet dd bayld, they get okay bp bayld, you don't have to fight for overlapping niches.

Instead of immediately jumping to 'something needs to be taken away from someone', why not try to find compromises where both can equally exist. A number of suggestions have been made to help improve your reward gain outside cure spam. Also, why not join the fun instead of poo-pooing on it and sub SMN to your WHM or SCH? You can then be more versatile and use moves like Whispering Wind and Spring Water to heal people outside your party as well as help remove annoyances like Blackout between your preferred cure rotation. It's not a traditional sub, but this expansion has tried to push people to new ideas, so why not? And as a final suggestion, I know melee isn't what you may want to do on a mage class (and I do feel and share frustration there), but its what SE wants players in general doing in reives.



However, separate from this rule, evaluation will take place to estimate how much you accomplished the original goal.

Colonization reives’ main purpose is to clear the way of things that are obstructing colonization, so the goal would entail how much HP you cut off the obstacle. For lair reives, the goal entails how much HP you cut off the monster’s lair. Depending on how much HP you are able to damage these for, you will be able to receive a proportionate amount of experience points and bayld; however, if you are unable to damage their HP this will not be factored into your evaluation.


Just curious, but what are you feelings towards Reive Unity effects? The bonuses such as those that fill health back up and grant stoneskin to everyone in the reive regardless of party. Should this be removed too since it could be seen as taking away from your potential healing points?

[Calatilla]

Expect this to follow a very similar fate.

People only stopped doing campaign when the rewards were no longer useful. As long as Bayld is needed Reive will remain intact.

[Ketaru]

Also, why not join the fun instead of poo-pooing on it and sub SMN to your WHM or SCH? You can then be more versatile and use moves like Whispering Wind and Spring Water to heal people outside your party as well as help remove annoyances like Blackout between your preferred cure rotation. It's not a traditional sub, but

There is irony somewhere in the fact /SMN is the original traditional subjob for WHM.

[OmnysValefor]

The OP, and people supporting the claim, are correct.

First, campaign worked differently. You reached a hard cap on exp, which at that point gave you half the same in allied notes. If you continued further, your allied notes approached the exp number, but didn't exceed it.

Also remember that, back then, battles gave significantly less. The rewards were buffed because SE heard us wanting campaign fixed and basically just poked around with a few easy updates.

Anyway, the only way to exceed the exp/allied notes was to recycle your tags. Turn them in, get new ones. Scholars and summoners were buffed at the same time. I know this because I would occasionally sch/thf, accession, flee, cure IV and watch everyone's mobs come chasing me because I'd just cured several thousand hp. Hate me, but it was fun. I wasn't capping exp or notes, I was just having fun.

What the OP is saying is that the others are exploiting (I use the term lightly, noone is cheating) a design, in the way that the two systems are different, and gaining more at the expense of everyone else. There is basically some total amount to be rewarded to participants and smn's are shoving taking the lion's share.

I don't really care, but to argue the point is silly.

[RAIST]

don't think they are "taking the lion's share"--if that where the case, people wouldn't be getting great xp on the more durable, heavier hitting jobs, or on the lighterweight jobs if they change up their playstyle--even with the presence of SMN's in the reives.

SMN isn't simply preventing a bunch of other jobs from getting decent rewards...they may reduce one's potential rewards from curing only if they don't adapt and compensate for the competition, but that's not just SMN that can do that--it could just as easily been a group of people on the same jobs that simply came into direct competition for that one player's slice of the action. So, technically everyone may get a reduction simply because someone else steps in...that's not because it was job x, y , or z...it's because another player is also doing what you were relying solely on for your rewards. That's the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket.

There is a flip side to this as well. It creates the possibility of enhancing everyone else's rewards, simply by the virtue of increasing efficiency. If people would really analyze this, they might find that by having other people assisting like this (whether its a couple SMN's or a band of happy WHM's), it frees people up to do other things they otherwise might not be able to, because they're stuck solely on that one detail--that could be any support capacity...haste/refresh cycles, curing, stunning--the point is you have less pressure to do this one thing, freeing you up to expand your contribution to the group.

There are other things that can be done for credit in reives, just like there was in all the other similar events that came before it. If you are letting yourself get pigeonholed as a one-trick pony, this is potentially going to happen to you in any event like this. All it takes is someone else stepping in to do what you are doing, regardless of the job--it can even be the same main job, but a different subjob, or simply different gearing that is allowing them to out-perform you in some way, and your usefulness gets diminished. This is true for a tank, a DD, a healer, a kiter--any job can be affected in this way.

We've seen this same type of disparity amongst players with all those other events in the past. For whatever reason, people figured out they couldn't turn big numbers doing things the way they expected to on a given job, so they figured out a better way to participate. What some are either refusing to acknowledge (or otherwise not grasping) is that SMN is being FORCED into being more or less a one-trick pony in this event. At least other jobs have reasonable means to still get decent rewards....SMN is not being afforded that luxury. Sure, it can try to go-balls-to-the-wall with it's staff and all...but it is at considerably more risk than other jobs when a mob decides to turn on them. The other mage jobs are simply natively designed for handling such situations much better than SMN--it's not just a difference of gear options, some have native traits/abilities/spells that afford them more safety when things get ugly. Can you really blame them for taking advantage of the one thing they can really count on to get decent rewards in this event?

Consider this: how many undead were slaughtered unmercifully with the cure bug?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I-X7a7AONI
Now, THAT was broken, and was appropriately fixed.

[OmnysValefor]

There are quite a few reives where I seem to get just awful reward, besides turning it in. So this is actually happening. Some flaw in the design allows for it.

Yeah whm could spend the entire time subtargeting and looking for people to cure, but all a summoner needs to do is see an aoe go off in the group and instantly dispatch garuda.

I don't blame the smn's for doing this. I want pld/dnc to campaign because it was the god of campaign, but anyone saying the OP is wrong are actually wrong themselves. Now, like others have said, players who are bothered by it could level summoner or sub summoner etc etc, and there's nothing wrong with that notion.

[Icefall]

I think the bigger issue here is that when more people join a reive, points go down for everyone, regardless of job. The walls are taken down faster, mobs don't have time to respawn as many waves, more people are there to compete for healing (on a variety of jobs) and people are taking less damage in general since things are being taken out more efficiently and Unity is procing more often. If you seriously want better points, you have to go find less populated blockades or tackle them at less populated times. "Go somewhere else" is not a solution people want to hear, understandably, but one can't just zone out following the reive train around the first two zones and then be upset when their points start dwindling as the train picks up more people with each pass. You can't stop other people from joining, but you can control where you and your party choose to go. Pick your battles more carefully with bayld gain in mind as the primary focus instead of the general goal of clearing paths to other bayld rewarding objectives and getting some points along the way.

[Manux]

There are quite a few reives where I seem to get just awful reward, besides turning it in. So this is actually happening. Some flaw in the design allows for it.

Yeah whm could spend the entire time subtargeting and looking for people to cure, but all a summoner needs to do is see an aoe go off in the group and instantly dispatch garuda.

I don't blame the smn's for doing this. I want pld/dnc to campaign because it was the god of campaign, but anyone saying the OP is wrong are actually wrong themselves. Now, like others have said, players who are bothered by it could level summoner or sub summoner etc etc, and there's nothing wrong with that notion.

Yeah there's nothing wrong in that subbing smn and doing that, its the same thing when people lvl up bst for dynamis currency.

[Raksha]

All of the WHMs I know complain because SMNs are sucking up all the heals. I tried whipping out my staff and meleeing as SCH (and spamming haste/pro/shell) but i got super shit rewards.

SMN aoe cure worked in campaign because there were NPCs that had huge amounts of HP, so any healer had plenty of opportunities.

I support the OPer's suggestion that all curagas/accessions should also be able to hit everyone. Would make reives much more fun for me (as opposed to just switching to WAR)

[RAIST]

All of the WHMs I know complain because SMNs are sucking up all the heals. I tried whipping out my staff and meleeing as SCH (and spamming haste/pro/shell) but i got super shit rewards.

SMN aoe cure worked in campaign because there were NPCs that had huge amounts of HP, so any healer had plenty of opportunities.

I support the OPer's suggestion that all curagas/accessions should also be able to hit everyone. Would make reives much more fun for me (as opposed to just switching to WAR)

But that's what has caused such a ruckus in this thread... the OP was not advocating tweaking other jobs to compensate, but instead calling for them to specifically clamp down on SMN:


So I was doing Colonization Reives in Morimar Basalt Fields today. I was on WHM having a great time healing my party, buffing, doing my job, etc... when out of no where come 4 summoners and that's when things went down hill.

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

BP's in Reives needs limited to party only or this is going to become PLD + SMN + DD only event.

This continued on for quite a while. He/She is still calling for it 129 posts into the thread:


Again it's been about removing the special ability that SMN's get with their BP's in this event. Because it's an event change it would also impact BST. Try to understand that the SMN job would not be nerfed. Nor would BST. This event actually increases their ability several times fold while leaving everyone else out.

How would SMN or BST respond if in abyssea every one could get atmas or curror buffs but them or in VW that anyone could use atmicite but them? Given the attitude on this board to the things i've said, I expect it would be far worse than mine. I would see several "I'm quitting" posts. I'm not salty about it because I can come on anything but I do think it needs addressed as it provides an unbalanced event. This isn't like Campaign or WoE because those are "open" battle fields. Reives is quite compressed and tight on space. So either they can open up the battle area way more than it already is, or they need to change something else with the way the event plays.

[Raksha]

If we can't change things for SMN can we change them for everyone else? Can I curaga everyone in my area with out restriction to party?

this is what i was referring to.

[RAIST]

this is what i was referring to.

I know...but that was like 2 days ago (22nd post). Besides, that statement probably only came out because it's what others were talking about--curing outside the party, doing all you can to maximize your potential by doing other things...basically shifting the onus to balance one's scores to the player that suddenly found them self in competition for getting credits for support activities.

Despite all the alternatives out there (many presented in the thread), Malphius is still digging the heels in and calling for SMN to be nerfed in the events (129th post, late yesterday afternoon).

It's not "either put everyone else on par with SMN somehow, or restrict SMN", it seems to be all about putting the brakes on just one job in the event. That is why people refer to it as nerfing SMN for the event, because in effect that is what it will do because otherwise SMN gets pretty meh rewards without the AOE wards feature.

[Raksha]

All non DD jobs get shit rewards in reives. They should fix the event such that all support jobs get decent rewards, not just the one with a hugely unfair advantage.

[Aezelas]

Are people complaining about smn in reives even aware of BPs drawbacks?

I admit asking for mages' cures to be extended to all reives' players is smarter than asking for smn to be nerfed.
But, what if those extended cures would reset all your cure timers to 45 seconds?

Whm can spam cures. We smn can cure everyone but it's not like we can spam.
Plus, rabbits do huge damaging AOEs and a single BP can't take everyone to full HP.
There's still room for other healing jobs. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see people still dying in reives.

Those dead people would have gotten you some baylds if you've been quicker on healing them.
Remember your cure timers are not shared. Spam those while we wait for whispering wind to be ready.

[Caketime]

Are people complaining about smn in reives even aware of BPs drawbacks?

I admit asking for mages' cures to be extended to all reives' players is smarter than asking for smn to be nerfed.
But, what if those extended cures would reset all your cure timers to 45 seconds?

Whm can spam cures. We smn can cure everyone but it's not like we can spam.
Plus, rabbits do huge damaging AOEs and a single BP can't take everyone to full HP.
There's still room for other healing jobs. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see people still dying in reives.

Those dead people would have gotten you some baylds if you've been quicker on healing them.
Remember your cure timers are not shared. Spam those while we wait for whispering wind to be ready.

This x100. Everybody wins!

[Ketaru]

I admit asking for mages' cures to be extended to all reives' players is smarter than asking for smn to be nerfed.
But, what if those extended cures would reset all your cure timers to 45 seconds?

Was wondering how long it would be until somebody would reject the whole "Curagas for everyone!" idea. I knew, to someone, it was never really about what's best for everyone.


Those dead people would have gotten you some baylds if you've been quicker on healing them.
Remember your cure timers are not shared. Spam those while we wait for whispering wind to be ready.

Eh, I offer parties to people in Reive where we're short handed. I've been refused. And when people refuse to join me, I don't heal them. Or Raise them in the end. You can't just expect mages to be tabbing around like we've got nothing better to do than scanning for HP bars.

And telling mages to man up and start meleeing is all well and good when numbers are low for a Reive. Like maybe 15. When you've got 50 or so people at roots or crags, your damage is not going to measure up to other dedicated damage dealers. Might as well just come as a damage dealing job and let the 3 or 4 SMNs heal you.

As I've said, I'd be more than happy to sub /BLU on RDM to keep people healed if Healing Breeze would apply to everybody in the area. Bonus, I'll Cocoon and be able to access Sanguine Blade to aid in my own survivability. But as things stand now, Wild Carrot is AoE Cure IV that effects everybody in the area. It's easier for me to heal an alliance worth of people as a BST than as a RDM or SCH. Think about that for a moment.

[Malphius]

don't think they are "taking the lion's share"--if that where the case, people wouldn't be getting great xp on the more durable, heavier hitting jobs, or on the lighterweight jobs if they change up their playstyle--even with the presence of SMN's in the reives.

SMN isn't simply preventing a bunch of other jobs from getting decent rewards...they may reduce one's potential rewards from curing only if they don't adapt and compensate for the competition, but that's not just SMN that can do that--it could just as easily been a group of people on the same jobs that simply came into direct competition for that one player's slice of the action. So, technically everyone may get a reduction simply because someone else steps in...that's not because it was job x, y , or z...it's because another player is also doing what you were relying solely on for your rewards. That's the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket.

There is a flip side to this as well. It creates the possibility of enhancing everyone else's rewards, simply by the virtue of increasing efficiency. If people would really analyze this, they might find that by having other people assisting like this (whether its a couple SMN's or a band of happy WHM's), it frees people up to do other things they otherwise might not be able to, because they're stuck solely on that one detail--that could be any support capacity...haste/refresh cycles, curing, stunning--the point is you have less pressure to do this one thing, freeing you up to expand your contribution to the group.

There are other things that can be done for credit in reives, just like there was in all the other similar events that came before it. If you are letting yourself get pigeonholed as a one-trick pony, this is potentially going to happen to you in any event like this. All it takes is someone else stepping in to do what you are doing, regardless of the job--it can even be the same main job, but a different subjob, or simply different gearing that is allowing them to out-perform you in some way, and your usefulness gets diminished. This is true for a tank, a DD, a healer, a kiter--any job can be affected in this way.

We've seen this same type of disparity amongst players with all those other events in the past. For whatever reason, people figured out they couldn't turn big numbers doing things the way they expected to on a given job, so they figured out a better way to participate. What some are either refusing to acknowledge (or otherwise not grasping) is that SMN is being FORCED into being more or less a one-trick pony in this event. At least other jobs have reasonable means to still get decent rewards....SMN is not being afforded that luxury. Sure, it can try to go-balls-to-the-wall with it's staff and all...but it is at considerably more risk than other jobs when a mob decides to turn on them. The other mage jobs are simply natively designed for handling such situations much better than SMN--it's not just a difference of gear options, some have native traits/abilities/spells that afford them more safety when things get ugly. Can you really blame them for taking advantage of the one thing they can really count on to get decent rewards in this event?

Consider this: how many undead were slaughtered unmercifully with the cure bug?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I-X7a7AONI
Now, THAT was broken, and was appropriately fixed.

Since you asked earlier the numbers are direct replies that collate to your paragraphs.

1, 2 & 3. They are taking the lions share from one class of job. There is no denying that even though you refuse to acknowledge it even though the facts are right there in plain sight. If you eliminate the possibility for one class to perform their ROLE then you are doing just that. It's not just DIMINISHING it's ELIMINATING. No mages are going to melee either. I'm sorry. Saying try to increase your over all tally isn't acceptable either. You get Bayld two different ways. The over all tally seems to be about 50% of the equation. This is a job based game and I have about 6 sets of gear I carry around for any job. I don't have room for a set of gear that doesn't directly relate to a jobs strength. Nobody should be forced to go change jobs when 4 smn's / bsts swamp the event.

You continuously call this a nerf when it is not. It's a change to the event. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you don't like what i'm saying but it's only a nerf when it directly changes the job mechanics. This is a targeting system in reives that SMN and BST can and do exploit.

[Malphius]

Was wondering how long it would be until somebody would reject the whole "Curagas for everyone!" idea. I knew, to someone, it was never really about what's best for everyone.



Eh, I offer parties to people in Reive where we're short handed. I've been refused. And when people refuse to join me, I don't heal them. Or Raise them in the end. You can't just expect mages to be tabbing around like we've got nothing better to do than scanning for HP bars.

And telling mages to man up and start meleeing is all well and good when numbers are low for a Reive. Like maybe 15. When you've got 50 or so people at roots or crags, your damage is not going to measure up to other dedicated damage dealers. Might as well just come as a damage dealing job and let the 3 or 4 SMNs heal you.

When people say "do it for the good of everyone" they are talking about themselves. It's never about the greater good, it's just a thing people say meaninglessly.

[Malphius]

So since we can't change the event and we can't make Curaga follow the same rules as bloodpacts and pet moves can we make Accession follow those same rules? I proposed Curaga to prove a point which someone was kind enough to make for me.

If we use Accession it applies to all jobs that sub Scholar and it's on a time limit fairly consistent with BST and SMN timers.

[Caketime]

That sounds cool, Accession is already awesome, this would just make it more awesome. Though I am kind of partial to my Curaga's Butterfly.

[Malphius]

I know...but that was like 2 days ago (22nd post). Besides, that statement probably only came out because it's what others were talking about--curing outside the party, doing all you can to maximize your potential by doing other things...basically shifting the onus to balance one's scores to the player that suddenly found them self in competition for getting credits for support activities.

Despite all the alternatives out there (many presented in the thread), Malphius is still digging the heels in and calling for SMN to be nerfed in the events (129th post, late yesterday afternoon).

It's not "either put everyone else on par with SMN somehow, or restrict SMN", it seems to be all about putting the brakes on just one job in the event. That is why people refer to it as nerfing SMN for the event, because in effect that is what it will do because otherwise SMN gets pretty meh rewards without the AOE wards feature.

Oh you're speaking for me now?

Actually I proposed Curaga because it would kill SMN's ability to make any Bayrd the way they've been doing and it would "be for the good of everyone". This of course would make the event unbalanced towards WHM so I don't want that either.

This was a subject you completely ignored. I won't speak to why when you're speaking for both of us though.


That is why people refer to it as nerfing SMN for the event, because in effect that is what it will do because otherwise SMN gets pretty meh rewards without the AOE wards feature.

Looks like your true colors are starting to show however. Not about helping others, it's about protecting your Bayld advantage.

[Rekin]

Oh you're speaking for me now?

Actually I proposed Curaga because it would kill SMN's ability to make any Bayrd the way they've been doing and it would "be for the good of everyone". This of course would make the event unbalanced towards WHM so I don't want that either.

This was a subject you completely ignored. I won't speak to why when you're speaking for both of us though.



Looks like your true colors are starting to show however. Not about helping others, it's about protecting your Bayld advantage.

You don't seem to actually care about balance. It seems to be just a pedestal for you to tear down a job that is creeping up on your territory. Maybe you should swing that club some more like some others have suggested instead of screaming nerfs. You said it yourself DDing gives more byald than healing. So do the logical and start swinging.

[RAIST]

Since you asked earlier the numbers are direct replies that collate to your paragraphs.

1, 2 & 3. They are taking the lions share from one class of job. There is no denying that even though you refuse to acknowledge it even though the facts are right there in plain sight. If you eliminate the possibility for one class to perform their ROLE then you are doing just that. It's not just DIMINISHING it's ELIMINATING. No mages are going to melee either. I'm sorry. Saying try to increase your over all tally isn't acceptable either. You get Bayld two different ways. The over all tally seems to be about 50% of the equation. This is a job based game and I have about 6 sets of gear I carry around for any job. I don't have room for a set of gear that doesn't directly relate to a jobs strength. Nobody should be forced to go change jobs when 4 smn's / bsts swamp the event.

You continuously call this a nerf when it is not. It's a change to the event. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you don't like what i'm saying but it's only a nerf when it directly changes the job mechanics. This is a targeting system in reives that SMN and BST can and do exploit.

There you go again...

No, it is not taking the lion's share of rewards from ONE JOB CLASS. All it is doing is taking a portion of what is available for ONE SPECIFIC ACTION that almost HALF THE JOBS CAN PARTICIPATE IN. Just take a look at all the jobs that have a means to participate in the HP Recovery rewards. Several of those can also get rewarded for MP recovery, among a host of other things.

Oh, yeah.. and it's not just about having your mage melee. As I stated earlier, it was a tactic I used in previous events like this that I went and tested, only to find out that it indeed does have potential. So, lets look at all the things you can get scored on in Reives (from BG Wiki (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Reive)):

Physical attack
Magic attack
Damage taken
Monster vanquishing
HP recovery
Attack success
Resistance success
Enhancing support
Enfeebling support
Raising KO'ed players

Are you SERIOUSLY going sit here and say that a SMN healing is able to completely KILL a supprt jobs role in reives?

The ONLY way this happens is if (as I mentioned earlier) you are relying SOLELY on your cures for rewards, and even then that is not going to KILL your potential for rewards. But.. this is not something swpecific to SMN that impacts you on this front. It could be BST, SMN, BLU, RDM, WHM, DNC, DRG....pick any job that is capable of HP recovery---including, but not limited to jobs like MNK and DRK that have no access to a cure spell natively, but have abilities that can recover HP. Oh, yes, and this includes a BLM as well.

The person actually hurting these one-trick pony cure spammers are themselves. If you are doing nothing but cures then you are doing nothing to increase your caps for rewards beyond the credit you are getting for spamming cures. It's like participating in Campaign without renewing your tags, limiting you to the hard cap based on time present. If you are not taking any action toward achieving other goals, your cap remains static for each evaluation. If you would just step outside the box a little, you can do something else, achieve additional goal credits, and thus potentially offset the loss you incur because one of many jobs is also participating in the HP Recovery credits.

Have you at least even bothered to pick one... pick two, try to do a bunch of them or just one...the point is there is more a WHM, BRD, RDM, BLM, whatever job you are on can do to contribute to reives then just one action. You've got 10 potential reward categories. Pick something else to do if one isn't working for you. If that fails, try another. You may be surprised what you find you are actually capable of if you put forth a little creative effort.

And yes... it is a NERF for SMN if this is done. What happens when they have such a big chunk taken away from them? The same thing you are claiming has happened to you. Someone else is taking their rewards. Have you seen SMN's creating a topic hear demanding that WHM not be able to heal outside of party? Are they complaing that SAM, DRG, WAR, DRK.. host of other jobs are killing their xp from BP Rages, so they need to have weaponskills nerfed in reives so they can get rewards from offensive actions? NO. They have accepted the hybrid nature of the event, adjusted, and moved on.

That is a very important point you just don't seem to be grasping. This event is built to reward people for all actions they take during the event. It is designed so that creative players can better maximize their rewards. A DNC gets credits for using steps and flourishes in addition to waltzes and weaponskills. Mages can get bonus points for timing their magic damage with WS chains. There is soooooo much more a job with multiple scorable actions can do to obtain greater rewards.

But... if all one wants to do is sit there and spam cures, don't cry foul when a handful of extra players come in and start ramping up the hp recovery rate that happens to reduce your rewards because you refuse to do anything else to supplement your score and expect to get away with crying to take that opportunity away from just ONE JOB of MANY that are capable of doing this very same thing to you.

For instance... BST. Where is your rage against BST? Or will that be the next job you complaign about? Then who's next... RDM? SCH? DNC? BLU?... anyone subbing a job that can cure? Yeah.. that NIN/DNC over in the corner just reduced my reward by 1k. Reduce rewards for /DNC curing.

Where does it end?

[RAIST]

Oh you're speaking for me now?

Actually I proposed Curaga because it would kill SMN's ability to make any Bayrd the way they've been doing and it would "be for the good of everyone". This of course would make the event unbalanced towards WHM so I don't want that either.

This was a subject you completely ignored. I won't speak to why when you're speaking for both of us though.



Looks like your true colors are starting to show however. Not about helping others, it's about protecting your Bayld advantage.

nice way to try obfuscate, but things have already been put into context. That post came right in the middle of a string of posts talking about other ways to tweak the event. I was never speaking for you...but I did quote you and directed to where they were in the thread. As I stated, it was probably posted because such a discussion was already taking place. The point is, if such a discussion had not already been taking place and already leading towards that concept, you may not have commented on it. Tweaking other content to compensate was not brought forth by you...you briefly went along with it (then fell back to blaming SMN), but it was NOT your proposed adjustment. The OP said nothing of any alternative method, and you are still stuck on the same idea---that the problem is with SMN and therefore SMN needs to be restricted. No matter how many times it is shown to you that it is not SMN alone that creates this very situation you don't like....you just keep attacking SMN as the problem.

Oh, and yes.. it is a nerf, here are a couple definitions from a quick google on the term:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerf

To make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game.

Why the hell did Blizzard nerf Marines' attack damage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_(video_gaming)

In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.[1][2] The opposite of nerf is buff.

1.^ a b c Bartle, Richard (2003). Designing Virtual Worlds. New Riders. p. 305. ISBN 0-13-101816-7. "Now you're only making 40 UOC per pelt63. What do you do? Either you accept the realities of the free market or you dash off an email to the community service team screeching "Your STOOPID game NERFED snow wolves!!!"64. [...] 63 Or, if things get as bad as they did in Ultima Online, one UOC. 64 To nerf means to adjust the tangible effects of a virtual world element downward. Although nowadays it can apply to everything from skills to classes to races to spells, it's traditionally used for objects. It comes from the Nerf brand of safe-play toys. A Nerf gun does less damage than a real one."
2.^ Kaelin, Mark (2006-05-03). "Playing a MMORPG is not all fun and games, you better have the right vocabulary". Tech Republic. CBS Interactive, Inc. Retrieved 2008-12-15.


How many times must it be stated? The problem is not one job particular job. Thus, the solution is NOT to go and nerf that one job. The problem is the players that can't or otherwise won't think of anything else to do that might not only help them out, but everyone else as well. It's like you want thise reward line to be some sort of protected class. "To hell with everyone else... I want my precious healing rewards". If such a change is made as you proposed, then it would eventually follow that SMN cries even more for enhancement so they can participate. But, then there is the problem of BST being able to do the same thing SMN does...watch out... gonna have to take that from BST too. Then Waltzes will be reset to being in-party only again. And so and so and so forth.

THAT is why I keep challenging your absurd claims on this matter. It's not about whether I like SMN or not...which I admitted I do like, but FYI...I haven't been to a reive on SMN in about 2 weeks. I spent about a week on SMN, then one on SAM, and about a week on MNK. Next week, I intend to be on NIN. I've been spending a little time on each job, finding my ways with each of them. Something you haven't seemed to do very thoroughly yet. It's almost like you found out you can't succeed on one course of action with one type of job because there was one job in direct competition with you, threw your hands up in the air, and decided the problem was SMN and nothing else BUT SMN. Nevermind there may be 6 other jobs capable of and also doing the exact same thing--curing themselves and/or others for better rewards (whether that is the direct reason, or they want the reive to be successful--in the end, they get more rewards for doing it). No... that thought just never seems to sink in... it's all SMN's fault....no one else is in competition with me, just that !@#$@#$ SMN.

I'd stand up for BST in the same manner...and I almost never play mine anymore, but I have some friends who do that could be potentially impacted if their job was grossly stripped of their incentive to participate in content. Same goes for PUP (which I never even unlocked). Hence my posts in the pet job issues threads early on. It wasn't just my SMN that was affected. It was messing up my friends who I routinely do things with on their PUP and BST jobs. It isn't about SMN, it's about all jobs that are affected by the problem.

The same applies here. Support jobs aren't grossly affected by JUST SMN. They are, by the event's design, in direct competition with ALL SUPPORT JOBS, as well as other jobs that can potentially participate in those same roles even though it is not their job's primary role (ie: PLD, BLU, DNC...etc.).

It is not SMN that is the issue, it is more one of the symptoms/effects of the chosen approach(es) to the event by a select group of players. This is actually an issue that can be remedied by the PLAYERS facing problems in reives....provided they are willing to put forth the effort.

[Jackstin]

It's difficult enough to balance the whole game for every job, let alone each and every event-type.

This is a non-topic. Bring another job if you're not making enough Bayld.

[Malphius]

I'm going to keep this short while trying to respond to your statements.


There you go again...

No, it is not taking the lion's share of rewards from ONE JOB CLASS. All it is doing is taking a portion of what is available for ONE SPECIFIC ACTION that almost HALF THE JOBS CAN PARTICIPATE IN. Just take a look at all the jobs that have a means to participate in the HP Recovery rewards. Several of those can also get rewarded for MP recovery, among a host of other things.

Oh, yeah.. and it's not just about having your mage melee. As I stated earlier, it was a tactic I used in previous events like this that I went and tested, only to find out that it indeed does have potential. So, lets look at all the things you can get scored on in Reives (from BG Wiki):

Physical attack
Magic attack
Damage taken
Monster vanquishing
HP recovery
Attack success
Resistance success
Enhancing support
Enfeebling support
Raising KO'ed players

Are you SERIOUSLY going sit here and say that a SMN healing is able to completely KILL a supprt jobs role in reives?

So SMN must be exempt from the entire list (half of which was not posted) because as you state it, the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing the entire Reives population. Hypocrisy in the flesh.

Once again glossing over a point I make because you can't frame it with in your argument. Since you want to start quoting wiki now let me quote you this part which you left out: "Note that momentum bonuses do not directly impact the player's EXP/bayld calculation, but the effects are helpful in achieving higher evaluation values." So yes the SMN's are taking the lion's share of "exp/bayld" mini tallies as others have also said. Momentum bonuses only effect the final tally at the very end.


Since you want to define "Nerf" (and from such reputable sources no less) for me please stop. I know what it means. Both definitions work in my favor.


o make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game.

It's been my position from the beginning that this is about balancing out the event.


In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.[1][2] The opposite of nerf is buff.

Notice the term "game element" and no where saying "class". It's been my position from the start that this is a change to the reives battle system. Also since the opposite of a nerf is a buff, this event "buffs" SMN and BST abilities. Since I want them to eliminate this feature this would be putting them back on neutral ground as it does not detract from their job/class abilities that they have anywhere else in the game. A "SMN nerf" would be me saying "SMN should be on a 2 minute BP timer" which would clearly be ludicrous and a nerf.


As I stated, it was probably posted because such a discussion was already taking place. The point is, if such a discussion had not already been taking place and already leading towards that concept, you may not have commented on it.

Yes, you're right. Because it's my opinion that this event should play like any other place in the game. However as a reasonable person i'm willing to compromise if it puts things on equal footing. I view giving Accession this same ability as a small compromise. It's giving yet another unbalanced advantage to another job but since Accession is not effected by skill (like BP's are) any job may use it with their natural magic skill set. The timers are also similar as a support job. Keep in mind this still leaves out bard and geomancer from using their abilities in the same fashion. Something should be figured out for them. I do challenge you though to find where someone was "leading me" to this point though because I don't remember.


Tweaking other content to compensate was not brought forth by you...you briefly went along with it (then fell back to blaming SMN)

I have not been blaming SMN. I have been blaming a targeting system that directly gives a buff to SMN and later I found out to BST or I would have included them in the beginning as well. The only time I mentioned WHM was in my initial experience and discovery of this. This has never been about 1 job vs another. Secondly I was only responding directly to your posts statement by statement, a mistake that I have stopped making as i've noticed you gloss over things you don't like in my responses and fail to mention them in yours.


Nevermind there may be 6 other jobs capable of and also doing the exact same thing--curing themselves and/or others for better rewards

I don't know how you have been talking to me for so long and still haven't grasped the point that this is about the targeting system and not rewards or the competition or SMN. I don't care if there are 6 rdm/whm/sch/geo there curing with me. We're on equal footing. Nothing to complain about there. And if SMN was there doing the same thing (with in those same limitations) I would welcome them.

My two main challengers refuse to answer the question on their quest to make personal attacks and put words in my mouth. Do you support giving Accession and or Curaga (and extending the same courtesy to other support jobs such as Bard and Geomancer) the same targeting rules?


THAT is why I keep challenging your absurd claims on this matter.

Your mother should have raised you better. Be polite now.

[Jackstin]

Let's not bring mothers into this ladies.

[Dreamin]

is he still here crying that he's being beat by SMN in reive???

seriously I wish SE just give them AOE cures outside of pt because then they'll get beaten down fast and be on the floor and then they'll complaint and want the AOE to be restricted to pt/ally only.

[RAIST]

This whole thing is predicated on SMN's ability to AOE cure/buff people in reives. ALL of your arguments have been centered around this aspect. It has basically centered on curing specifically because that is what YOU made it about from the start. Don't sit there and try to make it like this ultimately does not boili down to credit given for hp recovery, ie methods of curing yourself and/or others. And I have not been focusing solely on WHM, I have repeatedly referenced other jobs that have such capabilities. WHM is just the job I tested with, the one that prompted YOU into coming here and requesting that SMN be nerfed because it impacted YOUR WHM's rewards. Or have you forgotten that you started tis entire thread because of the impact you saw on your WHM?

Here's a good question, and I seriously want to hear your answer. Upon discovering that these SMN's were impacting your rewards from curing others in reives...what was you next course of action to try to remedy the situation?


So SMN must be exempt from the entire list (half of which was not posted) because as you state it, the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing the entire Reives population. Hypocrisy in the flesh.

W T H? SMN must be exempt from what list? And I'm not saying the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing. I have been saying it is the most relevant way they can participate. I have not been the only one stating that by the way. I have stated that their offensive efforts are really low (I think "meh" was the term I used)--an argument you yourself put forth as a reason for mages NOT to melee. You asserted this even after a specific example was given, backed up by actual testing with a WHM...and a mediocre one at that. As for that hypocrosy statement....what you are claiming I have said is not hypocrosy, as it is not what I said. Down here we have a saying along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black.


Notice the term "game element" and no where saying "class". It's been my position from the start that this is a change the the reives battle system. Also since the opposite of a nerf is a buff, this event "buffs" SMN and BST abilities. Since I want them to eliminate this feature this would be putting them back on neutral ground as it does not detract from their job/class abilities that they have anywhere else in the game. A "SMN nerf" would be me saying "SMN should be on a 2 minute BP timer" which would clearly be ludicrous and a nerf.

Really. Are you aware of what is meant by the term game element in that definition? A job or job class is a game element. An event is a game element. A weapon is a game element. There are further definitions given, all pointing to reductions--be that potency, effectiveness, even desirability. A nerf can be made to make an activity less desirable (ie: the nerfed the return for selling choco-blinkers to disuade people from selling them). Really grasping for some straws on this argument. Also, it doesn't put them back to neutral ground as they are in every other aspect of the game. This is misleading simply because it applies in Campaign. But, that is a moot point. A nerf doesn't have to be a nerf across the scope of the entire game. It can be a focused tweak because of specific exploits. For example, landscape characteristics and how the affect pathing and provide safety for players has been accepted and used as a tactic in this game since it went live. But, it was getting abused in Abyssea, so one can technically say they nerfed the process of using elevation to avoid damage to discourage exploiting that tactic (just something that came to mind...I'm sure there are more specific adjustments made in other events that can be mentioned). This would be a nerf to and aspect of this particular event. It would reduce effectiveness of pets in this event, effectively reducing the masters from benefiting as strongly, and in effect dissuading the tactic. This is by definition a nerf. Unfortunately, it could well have the side effect of rendering the SMN job unfavorable as a whole in the event because of it's low returns on the offensive front---your own excuse for support jobs not going on the offensive. This would not impact BST in the same way, as it is better built for being up front and personal in battle--SMN on the other hand not currently set up well for this in reives (by comparison to more attractive options. Like you, many may not feel it is worth it...you have to be geared properly and really bust your @$$ just to get mediocre returns).


I have not been blaming SMN. I have been blaming a targeting system that directly gives a buff to SMN and later I found out to BST or I would have included them in the beginning as well. The only time I mentioned WHM was in my initial experience and discovery of this. This has never been about 1 job vs another. Secondly I was only responding directly to your posts statement by statement, a mistake that I have stopped making as i've noticed you gloss over things you don't like in my responses and fail to mention them in yours.

Umm.. yes... you have pinned this on SMN. And no, I don't gloss over your points. I just don't try to go through the post line for line like I am trying to do here...it's tedious. I just usually type as the thoughts come to me. Sometimes it's in order and happens to cover everything, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes my thoughts run ahead of my fingers and things get left out, and I go back and edit them in after the fact when I realized I left it out. And, haven't been portraying this solely as one job against the other...but you made it one job against a job class. Initially it was SMN vs WHM, but it evolved into SMN vs support, and eventually SMN vs. all jobs that it is in competition with as well as support vs. all jobs. That's what you don't seem to be acknowledging. Any jobs can be in competition for things at any point in time...but what you chose to focus on was SMN detracting from your specific rewards, and have been reluctant to accept that there is more one can do to earn acceptable rewards than that one task that was impacted by the presence of competition.


I don't know how you have been talking to me for so long and still haven't grasped the point that this is about the targeting system and not rewards or the competition or SMN. I don't care if there are 6 rdm/whm/sch/geo there curing with me. We're on equal footing. Nothing to complain about there. And if SMN was there doing the same thing (with in those same limitations) I would welcome them.
I don't know how you are not grasping the flaws in this approach with all the banter going on here. It doesn't put you on equal footing because it's 6 other mages. If 6 other jobs are doing the same thing as you versus one job doing it is still having a negative impact on your rewards for the same activity, and in the same scope because each instance for receiving credit has a cap that must be met for it to be redeemed. This cap is on a sliding scale, affected by progress in defeating the obstacle. If a SMN cures 10 people, which is what is needed to hit the cap, and 6 other people provide the same amount of healing and that is what is required to hit the cap---the end result in BOTH scenarios is that you get the same credit. With one exception. If the SMN has focused it's pet on the obstacle and is contributing respectable damage--the cap for that reward can increase. So, in theory, having a SMN there can actually net you MORE credits vs having 6 other mages for your competition (unless one is also beating a root or something). If none of this competition is present, yes.. you will potentially get more rewards. But to say you are on equal footing with a host of other mages competing vs a SMN may not necessarily be true.


My two main challengers refuse to answer the question on their quest to make personal attacks and put words in my mouth. Do you support giving Accession and or Curaga (and extending the same courtesy to other support jobs such as Bard and Geomancer) the same targeting rules?
Not sure where you get that we are putting words in your mouth. You've been quoted and referenced, and what you have said has been interpreted to mean different things perhaps...but I'm not sure I'd be saying someone has put words in your mouth. Personal attacks? Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Interesting how you go right back to the curing aspect....you keep bringing it back to SMN's AOE curing being at issue, and your only focus is to counter that activity. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?


Your mother should have raised you better. Be polite now.
Really. You're going to go there after stating you've received personal attacks. I have been trying my best not to call upon the Pimps Prayer (http://video.adultswim.com/the-boondocks/a-pimps-prayer.html)in this thread. You just don't know how impolite people can be on this forum.

/facepalm

[Malphius]

Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

Yes or no please. You suggested that other jobs should be buffed instead of taking abilities away from anyone else. Do you support that now that I put it out there.

[RAIST]

I did address it. As I said, it could be a fix if it was warranted...

Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework.

Guess it didn't register. I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it. Time will tell whether it is rewarding enough, but I guess we won't know the answer to that question until more is understood about the reward system and people put things to the test.

Now, it's your turn.

Again... what was your first course of action once you realized your rewards from curing was reduced?

[Malphius]

I didn't say you didn't address it. I asked you for a yes or no response.

[RAIST]

grr....mods may be reviewing the thread or something. Likes and reply with quote suddenly started stalling out.

I didn't say you didn't address it. I asked you for a yes or no response.

My bad... should have opened that post with "I already addressed this". My stance should have been pretty selve evident, but since you didn't seem to catch it, I replied anyway.

Still waiting for an answer from my question.

[Malphius]

Yes or no please. It could be up for interpretation and then i'll reply.

[RAIST]

asked and answered....still waiting for the same courtesy.

What was your next course of action to try to remedy the situation once you realized your rewards from curing was being reduced by SMN participation?

[Malphius]

That's okay. I guess we can continue when you're more cooperative but that probably won't happen.

[RAIST]

My answer was pretty clear. Not sure how that is being uncooperative. Sorry if you are having trouble with a detailed reply. Or perhaps the problem is you don't like the answer because it poses a challenge to your whole premise you are using to justify the change.

Why won't you answer my question? After all, I asked it first. I went ahead and addressed your question. Why won't you tell us what you chose to do when faced with competition for curing? Is it because you didn't try anything different in game? Did you feel your only option was to come here and request that SMN be nerfed?

Things that make you go "hmmm....."

[Malphius]

Because I need a definitive answer. Too much room between the lines for you to wiggle between as soon as the conversation starts going where you don't like it.

Do you support a suggestion you made yourself. Yes or No?

[RAIST]

Already answered it.


I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it.

There.. took off some of the extra text in the post. Think that's pretty definitive.

Still waiting for an answer to my question. Or should we just assume that in fact you didn't try anything different and are simply sticking to reives being broken becauseof SMN?

IF that's wrong, I apologize in advance... but that's what happens when you don't clarify things. People start interpreting things as they see them, and sometimes will get it wrong.

So...what did you do to try to remedy your situation?

[Malphius]

You replied but you didn't answer me. Your reply is completely subjective and can mean anything you want it to at any given time. I'm forced to come to my own conclusions. We will proceed when I have a yes or no answer which is a definitive answer. Until then you may have the last word as I know you will need it to feel satisfied.

[RAIST]

good grief... you already answered the question yourself when you asked it.

And my answer is definitive. What is so hard to understand about the words "I'm not against it"? are you confused because it has the word "against" in it, making you think that I am in fact against it? Find it hard to believe that any one above grade school reading level could misconstrue my statement.

Guess you're just being adversarial because you've been caught in a proverbial catch 22 and can't answer my question without making yourself look bad? ...who knows. But I've answered your question that had already been addressed before you even posed the question (which effectively answered it the way you phrased it). You just refuse to accept it. Is it becasuse my position doesn't fall in line with a narrative you want to pursue? At least I am willing to participate in the dialogue, regardless of where it goes.

[Edit:]
As a side note... getting hard to be inspired to do reives in general. At least not during primetime. Way too many people. Reives are just going down too quick...sitting idle through most of some of them on NIN just trying draw my weapons and fight a mob for more than 5 seconds. May be the bigger issue SE needs to address here....earnings just fall apart with large groups doing them simply because they don't last.

[Alhanelem]

my word... Have these people been taking Al lessons? lol... you guys sure know how to make a lengthy back-and-forth.

Looking at that makes me feel like I can better identify when its time to quit whilst behind. :p

[Xerius]

SMN has just as many options as WHM, get some DA pieces and wear a couple of accuracy rings, maybe chew on some sushi and beat roots while you spam buffs and cures. Stop acting like you have no options other than spamming Wards.

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

[Babekeke]

When I do Reives on my pink DNC, big boys come along and kill the mob that I've been fighting for 5 mins and got down to 90%HP. Thus meaning I don't get as many points. Can we make it so that noone else can touch my mob please so I can get more points?

I can't believe that this thread is still going on. If this idiot whm was any good at his job, his party would be quite happy to use /blockaid to allow them to be exclusively cured by him.


Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

Yes, melee SMN. It's not a new concept, you get 100%TP, then you use this (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Taker) to recover some MP. And nowadays, if you're lucky enough to have a Hvergelmir, you can use this (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Myrkr) instead for a lot of MP recovery. Without Hvergelmir, you may need to occasionally use Elemental Siphon, refresh or sublimation.

With capped gear haste, haste spell and Hvergelmir, you can WS every 39 seconds, assuming you never miss, and DA never procs. More than enough to keep 2 wards every 45 seconds + perp cost.

[Manux]

all I'm saying leave summoners alone and if smn is not your main please die else where lol

[Caketime]

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

I know, I'm a terrible person for suggesting you climb out of your box for a moment.

[Malphius]

I can't believe that this thread is still going on. If this idiot whm was any good at his job, his party would be quite happy to use /blockaid to allow them to be exclusively cured by him.



Yes, melee SMN. It's not a new concept, you get 100%TP, then you use this (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Taker) to recover some MP. And nowadays, if you're lucky enough to have a Hvergelmir, you can use this (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Myrkr) instead for a lot of MP recovery. Without Hvergelmir, you may need to occasionally use Elemental Siphon, refresh or sublimation.

With capped gear haste, haste spell and Hvergelmir, you can WS every 39 seconds, assuming you never miss, and DA never procs. More than enough to keep 2 wards every 45 seconds + perp cost.

Blockaid doesn't work in this. You're very presumptive about a lot of things. And if you can't believe this thread is still going on then refrain from posting and it will die out.

[SNK]

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.


>_____________________________> @ this post.

[Asymptotic]

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

Alternatively, you can use SMN's reasonable selection of high level battle mage gear, use Spirit Taker or Myrkr (Gates of Tartarus if you're a real boss) to recover MP and stop failing at your job.

With a post as misguided as this, I was going to say you're like, the personification of the official forums - except that's obviously not true. OFs are generally all over SMN melee.

[Alhanelem]

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.
You have obviously never tried doing this, because you have no idea. I don't usually go all-out melee gear, leaving on my AF body and a few other items, but MP is never an issue when you're meleeing, especially if you have relic or empyrean staff, or one of the new ones with ridiculous damage. Spirit taker, Myrkr, o GoT whenever your MP is low is plenty enough to keep you running.

[Asymptotic]

I'm agreeing 100% with Alhanelem on something! What is this!

[Alhanelem]

Well, love or hate meleeing, there is no denying it will improve your evaluations- this is true for all jobs, regardless of whether they have spells to cast or not. You can cast spells and melee in a reieve. it's completely doable. People are just too insistent on "its a mage, u cant melee" and ignoring the simple truth that regardless of how good it is or you think it is, you'll earn more bayld.

[Lithera]

Ugh just give the op a yes or no and he might just quit belly aching. Though I highly doubt it

[Xerius]

I used to melee in SMN all the time and I'll admit it works great... if the mobs are 10~15 levels lower than you and they don't spam harsh AoE damage. Of course meleeing on any job can net you some extra Bayld but mage's tend to be squishy and that's why the term (Back line job) exists. Because if you've ever tried meleeing on most of the mage jobs in any event geared towards your level, with a few exceptions you're going to end up on your ass.

[Alhanelem]

I used to melee in SMN all the time and I'll admit it works great... if the mobs are 10~15 levels lower than you and they don't spam harsh AoE damage. Of course meleeing on any job can net you some extra Bayld but mage's tend to be squishy and that's why the term (Back line job) exists. Because if you've ever tried meleeing on most of the mage jobs in any event geared towards your level, with a few exceptions you're going to end up on your ass.
"harsh AoE damage" is a problem to all jobs, not just SMN, and I have no problem meleeing mobs above my level, not just "10 - 15 levels lower." Beyond that, no AoEs in colonization reieves are THAT bad, and people will be spamming garuda's heal and cures anyway.

What were you trying to melee with? an elemental staff? A weapon with half the base damage of an actual staff intended for meleeing? With even just a decent DD staff and little else in the way of offensive gear, you can outdamage your avatar by a substantial margin (it really isn't hard at all to beat your avatar, lol); in a reieve, your primary target, the wall, doesn't attack back, and if you only attack monsters other people are fighting, the odds you'll pull hate are slim.

Find an actual melee staff, get shattersoul, and be suprised. Stop making excuses and just do it.

[Jackstin]

Makes me want to build a battle mage....

[Ryolen]

Shattersoul is pretty damn epic lol

[Babekeke]

Try this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/299744), and enjoy.

I'm intrigued as to whether anyone else has better sets too.

[Pug]

I switched to getting Bayld on SMN from BLU for the reasons many don't seem to want to fully admit. SMN is able to achieve very high evaluations both throughout the over all fight, and the end evaluation. Often getting very high EXP evaluation totals that are well above the final Bayld eval reward.

A few people have touched on this already in various ways but its important to note why SMNs are bothering to show up:

Like any other player, we're hungry for Bayld. 100k Wildskeeper KIs, gear, augments etc. It adds up, and its allot.

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

I can't deal enough damage to get a decent evaluation on BLU, when most of the people out there can double my damage output with Relic/Emp WS or even Wildskeeper weapons, the Reive object, be it roots, or rocks, die very fast.

Leaving you with less than 500exp/bayld when enough rock smashers show up and race to finish the object's destruction attempting to do the same they do 'Smash allot, and fast,' which of course many can't.

Maybe I can help with getting monsters dead?

Nope. For the same reasons Single Target, or Single Party healers get frustrated with Summoners, those of us among the 'I just don't want to stand in front of a rock and smash it DPS race' get frustrated with Paladins. I'd like to kill the monster to output some offense, and maybe generate some heals/support scores in the process. I can't survive the AoE spam that many Reive mobs have, in the heart of Paladin tanking country.

I know the 'just stand in front of object and swing crowd' loves a good Paladin that can just hold the monsters the whole Reive, but again, hey single target healers, where is the argument that only 1 player receiving any damage the whole fight leaves room for more than 1 healer/support class to make any meaningful bayld/exp?

I'm extremely happy for Paladins resurgence, and I hope people start to realize that a PLD being good, is also a strong indication that RDM should be back in the plan too.

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

[Raksha]

Any DD with a -DT set and /DNC can solo a mob (or two).

[Malphius]

Ugh just give the op a yes or no and he might just quit belly aching. Though I highly doubt it

He won't give a yes or no answer because he's trying to say yes and no at the same time. Just look at the context of those few posts.

[Malphius]

I switched to getting Bayld on SMN from BLU for the reasons many don't seem to want to fully admit. SMN is able to achieve very high evaluations both throughout the over all fight, and the end evaluation. Often getting very high EXP evaluation totals that are well above the final Bayld eval reward.

A few people have touched on this already in various ways but its important to note why SMNs are bothering to show up:

Like any other player, we're hungry for Bayld. 100k Wildskeeper KIs, gear, augments etc. It adds up, and its allot.

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

I can't deal enough damage to get a decent evaluation on BLU, when most of the people out there can double my damage output with Relic/Emp WS or even Wildskeeper weapons, the Reive object, be it roots, or rocks, die very fast.

Leaving you with less than 500exp/bayld when enough rock smashers show up and race to finish the object's destruction attempting to do the same they do 'Smash allot, and fast,' which of course many can't.

Maybe I can help with getting monsters dead?

Nope. For the same reasons Single Target, or Single Party healers get frustrated with Summoners, those of us among the 'I just don't want to stand in front of a rock and smash it DPS race' get frustrated with Paladins. I'd like to kill the monster to output some offense, and maybe generate some heals/support scores in the process. I can't survive the AoE spam that many Reive mobs have, in the heart of Paladin tanking country.

I know the 'just stand in front of object and swing crowd' loves a good Paladin that can just hold the monsters the whole Reive, but again, hey single target healers, where is the argument that only 1 player receiving any damage the whole fight leaves room for more than 1 healer/support class to make any meaningful bayld/exp?

I'm extremely happy for Paladins resurgence, and I hope people start to realize that a PLD being good, is also a strong indication that RDM should be back in the plan too.

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

A good non-objective look. I fully agree!

[Babekeke]

I tend to go drg/rdm for reives to get the most bayld. I don't have relic/emp/mythic, but I do have a dam good +HP set, and some nice (non-NNI unfortunately) gear.

When I team up with one of the best SMNs that I know, I still come out with more than he does, so I must be doing something right. I almost exclusively avoid killing the roots, in an attempt to make the fight last slightly longer, but I know the job well, I can maximise my own damage, my pet's damage, and my pet's curing. If I get agro from 2-3 mobs, I have a fairly good -PDT set (38%).

I can get a little annoyed when my HP drops just below 50% (of max geared HP) so I hit barwhatever macro to trigger healing breath, just as someone cures me, or a whispering wind hits. Thus I wasted 6 MP and a little time, but not to worry, it's not going to affect my overall score all that much.

The point is, I have just about all jobs at 99, and 9-10 of them are geared well enough to use properly. What would be stupid of me is to go to rieves on 1 of them, find that it sucks due to whatever reason (in this case smn spamming cures to everyone ever 45 seconds) and continue to use that job but whinge about the job that's spoiling my reward.

The better option by far is to find a better job to use for reives. And if that means swapping to SMN, then so be it. If you haven't already unlocked smn for whatever reason, all the better. Then you'll find out that it's by far the hardest/most long-winded job to unlock; it's the hardest/most longwinded job to skill up; it's never really wanted for most events, except for campaign, WoE and now reives. What you wouldn't see unfortunately, is the pain that many of us went through trying to get to 75 back in the days when everyone wanted us to help them to kill Kirin, but they weren't prepared to invite us to an exp party to hit 75.

And once you get smn to 99 and maybe get it's skill capped, you can join the rest of us waiting for avatars, updates/upgrades that we keep getting promised but never see.

[RAIST]

He won't give a yes or no answer because he's trying to say yes and no at the same time. Just look at the context of those few posts.

Oh boy... guess you really are as dense as I feared...

I'm not giving a yes or no answer, because my position doesn't fit either answer. I am not against them extending cures outward from the party in the event, I just don't feel it is waranted. The more I think about it, it probably won't resolve the problem in the long run. It might satisfy some people in the short term...but it would just be a matter of time before healing got oversaturated again and we'd be right back her again. As I view it, healing rewards are fine...the problem is more that there are other categories that need enhancement (this has also been brought up by others).

The biggest problem with what this thread was/is focused on is that the problem and the solution does not lie in the healing aspect per se, but more a problem with the unfair balance across the event. DD, Healing, and DT are the kings right now. The other 7 categories are crud, and need to be brought up to par with the other 3. In theory their formulas may have been fine, but human nature did not factor into their math and the event is likely not working out as they intended it to. The losses incurred due to that oversaturation of any one categore SHOULD be potentially offset with the other 9 categories, provided one is able to get decent rewards from them instead. If they were to review this and decide to directly tweak the event categories somehow, I honestly think they would get more bang for the buck by doing things to make the other categories more rewarding. That way, everyone can freely switch roles when one is getting overrun.

I simply think if they were to do anything to directly affect rewards, it should be more about balancing the rest of the event across the board against the 3 grossly over used methods that currently reign supreme. THAT solution, I would say yes... I wholely support. What you proposed (extending AOE cure options outside party) may resolve some issues in the short term, but in the end may just put us back in the same boat, just under a different flag. So, no, I'm not adverse to them extending the AOE cure mechanism to other jobs...it could make the reives even easier to complete. But making them easier would further exacerbate an even biggger problem: the rampant locust swarm approach currently being taken to complete reives. Because of that, no, I can't say I'd be lobbying for it...but I wouldn't get upset if they allowed it.

That is another issue that needs to seriously be addressed. Sure, SE didn't want us to simply waltz in and solo/low-man the reives. I totally get that. The problem is, the event was not made to scale with a massive group participating. It should have been scaled upwards in difficulty somehow once the group reaches a certain point. Various theories could be applied here...from the simplest thing like making the obstructions regen hp like fortifications a few times before going away (efeectively making the fight longer), or directly affecting it's defences by making the mobs respawn stronger, or more of them...possibly even making a mini-boss type pop. Something...anything...when it gets to be 3 or more alliances worth of people in there, it's simply hard for a lot of people get a leg up in there at times.

There are a lot of things wrong with the reives mechanics....but healing really isn't one of them.

Still waiting on an answer to my question, by the way. Interesting how yours has been covered multiple times by multiple users, yet you still have yet to respond once to a direct question asked of you....

[RAIST]

I tend to go drg/rdm for reives to get the most bayld. I don't have relic/emp/mythic, but I do have a dam good +HP set, and some nice (non-NNI unfortunately) gear.

When I team up with one of the best SMNs that I know, I still come out with more than he does, so I must be doing something right. I almost exclusively avoid killing the roots, in an attempt to make the fight last slightly longer, but I know the job well, I can maximise my own damage, my pet's damage, and my pet's curing. If I get agro from 2-3 mobs, I have a fairly good -PDT set (38%).

I can get a little annoyed when my HP drops just below 50% (of max geared HP) so I hit barwhatever macro to trigger healing breath, just as someone cures me, or a whispering wind hits. Thus I wasted 6 MP and a little time, but not to worry, it's not going to affect my overall score all that much.

The point is, I have just about all jobs at 99, and 9-10 of them are geared well enough to use properly. What would be stupid of me is to go to rieves on 1 of them, find that it sucks due to whatever reason (in this case smn spamming cures to everyone ever 45 seconds) and continue to use that job but whinge about the job that's spoiling my reward.

The better option by far is to find a better job to use for reives. And if that means swapping to SMN, then so be it. If you haven't already unlocked smn for whatever reason, all the better. Then you'll find out that it's by far the hardest/most long-winded job to unlock; it's the hardest/most longwinded job to skill up; it's never really wanted for most events, except for campaign, WoE and now reives. What you wouldn't see unfortunately, is the pain that many of us went through trying to get to 75 back in the days when everyone wanted us to help them to kill Kirin, but they weren't prepared to invite us to an exp party to hit 75.

And once you get smn to 99 and maybe get it's skill capped, you can join the rest of us waiting for avatars, updates/upgrades that we keep getting promised but never see.

Nice try...afraid short-sightedness may be preventing the bigger picture from getting through though.

[Malphius]

Oh boy... guess you really are as dense as I feared...

I'm not giving a yes or no answer, because my position doesn't fit either answer. I am not against them extending cures outward from the party in the event, I just don't feel it is waranted. The more I think about it, it probably won't resolve the problem in the long run. It might satisfy some people in the short term...but it would just be a matter of time before healing got oversaturated again and we'd be right back her again. As I view it, healing rewards are fine...the problem is more that there are other categories that need enhancement (this has also been brought up by others).

The biggest problem with what this thread was/is focused on is that the problem and the solution does not lie in the healing aspect per se, but more a problem with the unfair balance across the event. DD, Healing, and DT are the kings right now. The other 7 categories are crud, and need to be brought up to par with the other 3. In theory their formulas may have been fine, but human nature did not factor into their math and the event is likely not working out as they intended it to. The losses incurred due to that oversaturation of any one categore SHOULD be potentially offset with the other 9 categories, provided one is able to get decent rewards from them instead. If they were to review this and decide to directly tweak the event categories somehow, I honestly think they would get more bang for the buck by doing things to make the other categories more rewarding. That way, everyone can freely switch roles when one is getting overrun.

I simply think if they were to do anything to directly affect rewards, it should be more about balancing the rest of the event across the board against the 3 grossly over used methods that currently reign supreme. THAT solution, I would say yes... I wholely support. What you proposed (extending AOE cure options outside party) may resolve some issues in the short term, but in the end may just put us back in the same boat, just under a different flag. So, no, I'm not adverse to them extending the AOE cure mechanism to other jobs...it could make the reives even easier to complete. But making them easier would further exacerbate an even biggger problem: the rampant locust swarm approach currently being taken to complete reives. Because of that, no, I can't say I'd be lobbying for it...but I wouldn't get upset if they allowed it.

That is another issue that needs to seriously be addressed. Sure, SE didn't want us to simply waltz in and solo/low-man the reives. I totally get that. The problem is, the event was not made to scale with a massive group participating. It should have been scaled upwards in difficulty somehow once the group reaches a certain point. Various theories could be applied here...from the simplest thing like making the obstructions regen hp like fortifications a few times before going away (efeectively making the fight longer), or directly affecting it's defences by making the mobs respawn stronger, or more of them...possibly even making a mini-boss type pop. Something...anything...when it gets to be 3 or more alliances worth of people in there, it's simply hard for a lot of people get a leg up in there at times.

There are a lot of things wrong with the reives mechanics....but healing really isn't one of them.

Still waiting on an answer to my question, by the way. Interesting how yours has been covered multiple times by multiple users, yet you still have yet to respond once to a direct question asked of you....

I'm dense but you're the one that can't answer a simple question yes or no. That's rich. You're trying to have your cake and eat it to.


Already answered it.

I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it.
There.. took off some of the extra text in the post. Think that's pretty definitive.

That implies "No" with a hint of "Maybe".


Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

Again implying "No"


I did address it. As I said, it could be a fix if it was warranted...

Strongly implying "No"


And my answer is definitive. What is so hard to understand about the words "I'm not against it"? are you confused because it has the word "against" in it, making you think that I am in fact against it? Find it hard to believe that any one above grade school reading level could misconstrue my statement. Leaving out "But it's not warranted at this time"

Strongly implying "Yes".

I guess i'm dense but you're the one flip-flopping more than Mitt Romney. How could anyone know your position.

You said it's just addressing SMN but now that i've tried shifting focus to improving the other mages you can't give a straight answer and you say (3 times out of 4) "NO" don't do it. Don't buff the other jobs even though you yourself suggested it as well.


Really. Are you aware of what is meant by the term game element in that definition? A job or job class is a game element. An event is a game element. A weapon is a game element. There are further definitions given, all pointing to reductions--be that potency, effectiveness, even desirability. A nerf can be made to make an activity less desirable (ie: the nerfed the return for selling choco-blinkers to disuade people from selling them)

Why quote the dictionary if you're just going to go with your own definition anyways? Clearly you understand there are different kinds of game elements. Since the element is with in the Reives system and not SMN or BST it's not a job nerf. If anything i'd give you that it's an event nerf.


W T H? SMN must be exempt from what list? And I'm not saying the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing. I have been saying it is the most relevant way they can participate. I have not been the only one stating that by the way. I have stated that their offensive efforts are really low (I think "meh" was the term I used)--an argument you yourself put forth as a reason for mages NOT to melee. You asserted this even after a specific example was given, backed up by actual testing with a WHM...and a mediocre one at that. As for that hypocrosy statement....what you are claiming I have said is not hypocrosy, as it is not what I said. Down here we have a saying along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black.

Yes that's exactly what you've been saying is that SMN can only mass cure or get no rewards. When you tell me to use the list off wiki to boost my END EVALUATION reward you say it's useful, when I tell you to use it to do the same, you say it's worthless. Yep i'm still the one confused though.


Here's a good question, and I seriously want to hear your answer. Upon discovering that these SMN's were impacting your rewards from curing others in reives...what was you next course of action to try to remedy the situation?

I stopped coming on a mage job and started raping the trees/vines/rocks with everyone else.

Please try to keep your arguments short and to the point. I can't keep picking out the meaningful points from your personal feelings and insults.

[RAIST]

[Edit:]Oh boy....if Malphius thinks we've been seeing walls of text before....get ready. I must apologize in advance to the Forum Members and Moderators, but I think this poster, and especially this post, has finally sent me into full-fledged Dennis Miller Mode.... "I don't meant to go off on a rant here, but...."

{rant}

I'm dense but you're the one that can't answer a simple question yes or no. That's rich. You're trying to have your cake and eat it to.

That implies "No" with a hint of "Maybe".

Again implying "No"

Strongly implying "No"

Leaving out "But it's not warranted at this time"

Strongly implying "Yes".

I guess i'm dense but you're the one flip-flopping more than Mitt Romney. How could anyone know your position.
nope, not flip flopping. in order to flip flop, one has to state one position, then state the opposite--you have to bounce back and forth. My position on extending things like Accession is neutral...I don't care if they do it or not. As I stated, it won't fix the problem that you have been focused on. At best, it may temporarily appease someone like you, but eventually, it will get saturated again and we'll be back to square one. Therefore, if the goal is to actually FIX the problem you are concerned about...it is not the right course of action. Thus, in the scope of what has been debated, it is unnecessary.


You said it's just addressing SMN but now that i've tried shifting focus to improving the other mages you can't give a straight answer and you say (3 times out of 4) "NO" don't do it. Don't buff the other jobs even though you yourself suggested it as well.
First, what you proposed is not what I supported. I brought up an adjustment to ALL jobs. You are talking about tweaking just the mages. Why? To offset the benefits of SMN (and later acknowledged, BST)--basically pet curing. I have never been against buffing jobs that need/deserve it. That initial suggestion (buffing all jobs) and the last few ideas I brought up would benefit EVERYONE, not just mages. And that is not limited to just this event either--some jobs need a buff in general just to catch up to everyone else. It is a completely different approach, as it is addressing things as a whole, not just one particular aspect that you were focused on.


Why quote the dictionary if you're just going to go with your own definition anyways? Clearly you understand there are different kinds of game elements. Since the element is with in the Reives system and not SMN or BST it's not a job nerf. If anything i'd give you that it's an event nerf.
No, it would not be just a nerf to the event. It would be a focused adjustment to reduce specific jobs within the event. Couple that with the fact that this is the most current, and one of the more relevent events in the game at the moment...simply because it is a means to acquire the new shinies. You will efectively be reducing one's ability to progress via specific jobs...thus, by extension, it is a nerf to those jobs because it reduces their capacity to progress in that event (not just bayld/exp, but everything connected to Reives as well as the bayld, as it can only be obtained in SoA content so it makes Reives very relevant for all). Even though it is focused just within the event, it is a nerf to pets in the event....but only to specific jobs and not a nerf to all jobs or the event as a whole. That would entail something like reducing the credit given for HP recovery activity. Be careful what you ask for....you just might wind up getting something like that, then where would we be?


Yes that's exactly what you've been saying is that SMN can only mass cure or get no rewards. When you tell me to use the list off wiki to boost my END EVALUATION reward you say it's useful, when I tell you to use it to do the same, you say it's worthless. Yep i'm still the one confused though.
Nope...wrong again. I didn't say that SMN can only mass cure or get no rewards. Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. What I said is that it is the most relevant way for SMN to contribute. I even said a SMN has to bust it's butt in there otherwise. Lets see if I can find some examples on these points...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33136-Summoner-in-Colonization-Reives-Broken?p=428163&viewfull=1#post428163

The problem isn't that SMN is getting lots of XP by AOE healing people, it's that the WHM is just trying to get points ONLY from curing--and is only maximizing one aspect of it. On the other hand, the SMN is likely thwacking things with a stick, using offensive BP's, potentially taking some collateral damage from the AOE's and recovering that HP (at least, that's what I do). Compare that to the WHM who may very well be basically idle except for curing. It's very much like it was in campaign (I used to love to go /SAM and just smack the crap out of mobs for sh!ts and giggles...good times). You have to work for it if you want to get more out of it on mage jobs.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33136-Summoner-in-Colonization-Reives-Broken?p=428211&viewfull=1#post428211

Something that doesn't appear to being considered much, even though it was touched on earlier. SMN fulfills a needed role out there BECAUSE of it's AOE buffs/heals. What happens when that is taken away? Wonder if there will be cries to reset it?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33136-Summoner-in-Colonization-Reives-Broken?p=428214&viewfull=1#post428214

No, I'm saying that the issue at hand here is SoA content, not the others. If you take out SMN's usefulness, you may virtually remove it from an important portion of the content. See my last post. In some ways, this feature of SMN makes it WANTED in reives.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33136-Summoner-in-Colonization-Reives-Broken?p=428232&viewfull=1#post428232

But, you're missing the point. If you take this feature away from SMN, you may wind up taking away it's usefulness in reives. Well, at least outside of a very limited scope of being in a party trying to take them on I guess. But, if one is putting forth that level of planning, they are more likely to take the job that is best suited for healing a party. Which jobs would they be considering for that role? SMN? I guess if nothing else is available, maybe.

So, what does the lonely SMN get for it's efforts in reives if it's not in a party?

What does nearly every other job get for it's efforts in reives if not in a party?

That's the problem. You are advocating taking away the one thing that makes them truly desirable in the new content. Having this feature doesn't lessen the desire for other jobs NEARLY as much as it would reduce the desire for SMN if it was taken away. Therfore, it actually does (in SE's twisted way) provide balance for the jobs.

Just think about it. If Garuda/Leviathin/Carbuncle are able to provide just enough healing support to sustain a reive long enough for the HP restore rewards to kick in and refill everyone, it frees up other jobs to focus on other aspects. Couple this with the fact that it is virtually the only way for a SMN to make sure they get decent rewards, while most other jobs aren't faced with that delimma (lets face it, most other jobs are considerably more durable than SMN if they are getting smacked by a mob--even BRD gets access to more durable gears at times)...than you are faced with a serious deficit if you take away the one thing that really gives the job a truly desired slot in the event.

The simple fact that a WHM can get somewhat decent rewards without focusing on healing should be evidence enough that it is NOT required that a healer gets all it's reward from curing, even if it is the one most suited for it. So, what is SMN REALLy taking away from the healer? At least there is another option for those other jobs to still perform relevant roles and get rewarded for their efforts...SMN actually pretty much IS the red-headed step-child here if you really think about it.
and so and so and so forth. Yes, this feature can make SMN stand out, but that also makes it more desireable in the content. Take it away, and only the die-hards (those of us who like to play aggressively with our pets, supplementing their damage with our weapons and sometimes even subjob magic) might be the ones that show up, and that's only if they've managed to work out a strategy to compensate. If their sole purpose for going is to get the most reward for their effort, they may likely opt to get on a more effective job. If that's the case, what in effect has happened? Most SMN got run out of Reives, a very relevant content. Those that don't have better options and have their progress reduced....nerfed, if you will, in the scope of progressing through this content.


I stopped coming on a mage job and started raping the trees/vines/rocks with everyone else.
About time you answered the burning question. So, your only solution was to job change and eventually come here to demand that SMN (and by extension BST) get penalized in reives. You didn't try to do something different to compensate for your loss on WHM, didn't investigate whether it truly was the fault of just the SMN's that showed up. Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps along with those 4 SMN, more players came along too?

I know if I saw a few SMN heading into formation at a reive, I'd be more inclined to hop in for a bit if I'm gonna be in the thick of it. I in fact made that decision tonight on NIN. Instead of going to the crickets reive, I went to the spiders (2 SMN present in a group of about 10)---and they sustained us for probably a good 30 minutes. I didn't rely on the SMN entirely either. A WHM was steadily curing us...hit me directly a handful of times for 440HP. I did die once because I got a bit too aggressive, but that's what NIN is supposed to do when tanking, right? With these guys, I got almost double from that reive as opposed to the others. Guess which I would prefer to roll with?

Once again I'm trying to make the point that SMN is desired in these events, but they don't kill a WHM's worth in them. Why is this? Because without them, people are more prone to unwanted difficulties and (in some cases), potentially less rewards per event. The longer a reive can be sustained without wipes, the better opportunity for people to get bigger rewards. Removing this potential from the event can in fact wind up reducing the rewards for the larger portion of the participants. It's pretty simple logic actually....the needs of the many outweigh those of the few, or the one.

Just restating it for emphasis, SMN fulfills a much needed role in Reives because of this mechanic and taking that away will severely diminish the desire to have them present, possibly to the point that they virtually stop coming. Extending things like Accession to behave the same way will NOT lessen SMN's worth in the event. We've seen this with Campaign--it had no impact on their presence either way. The same would happen here, so it's pointless to argue whether one supports copying that portion of campaign mechanics if your main goal is to counter the presence of a pet's healing mechanics. They will still be there even if SCH or /SCH can do the same thing. If anything, it will just create more competition...still requiring people to focus on other aspects for getting rewards. Therefore, once again, I have no incentive to push for such a change, since it will not address the balance issues at hand. In the scope of this thread's central issue, while it won't solve that issue, it also will not have a negative impact either, so I have no reason to be against it. So, I'm basically neutral on adjusting the healing to expand to more players cured per instance since we will just be in the same situation...what I am against is a change that nerfs the hp recovery aspect--in any scope.


Please try to keep your arguments short and too the point. I can't keep picking out the meaningful points from your personal feelings and insults.
Sorry the answers are more detailed than you like....just trying to get points across that, regardless how many times they are put forth (not just by me, but others too), just don't seem to be getting through. If you would actually work through the proposed scenarios and such, perhaps you might see the validity of what a lot of people have been saying....but for some reason, it mostly just keeps coming back to adjustments to HP recovery for you.

As for "personal feelings and insults"....that's rich, coming from you. It's interesting that you will come after my posts with such vigor and obstinance, even though I have been saying the same thing as others in the thread. "Personal feelings?"... isn't that kind of what an opinion is? In the absence of facts that we can be certain of, we base it on what we "feel" is right/wrong. Sorry, I just call it as I see it, and when I've seen it first hand...can be pretty hard-nosed about what I've seen proven to be true when put against what is purely opinion. Always been that way. I make mistakes, and get the wrong idea from some people at times...but at least I try to acknowledge that and set the record straight once that comes about. In fact, that's what most of this post is. Trying to correct things from your posts to me, couplede with trying to better clairfy my stance since it still seems to elude you somehow.

Perhaps if you'd stop deliberately trying to misrepresent others and goad then into a narrative that is clearly not supported, perhaps people could finally agree to disagree on the opinionated portions. But, facts are facts. There is more one can do to get ahead in reives than just one task (granted, results can vary depending on varying factors that do need to be addressed by SE). Without properly exploring one's options, one cannot accurately say "This is broken, and this is what is needed to fix it". Without reasonable data to substantiate that claim, it is purely an opinion/hypothesis based on limited experience, and is VERY prone to be challenged. Once that opinion/hypothesis has been duly challenged and dispelled with verifiable actions/data, it's time to accept the corrected account of things and move on.

Perhaps next time, a little more homework should be done before filing a complaint?

[Edit:]
{/rant}

[Malphius]

I'm not even going to bother reading that.

[RAIST]

I'm not even going to bother reading that.

[Edited out sarcastic reply, as it probably wouldn't translate well]

Well, guess it's time to lock the thread then. I so want to quote Ron White on this one.....

[Malphius]

Well, guess it's time to lock the thread then. I so want to quote Ron White on this one.....

Yes, if you've made one thing clear it's that this is all about you.

Why not respond to Pugs statement?


I switched to getting Bayld on SMN from BLU for the reasons many don't seem to want to fully admit. SMN is able to achieve very high evaluations both throughout the over all fight, and the end evaluation. Often getting very high EXP evaluation totals that are well above the final Bayld eval reward.

A few people have touched on this already in various ways but its important to note why SMNs are bothering to show up:

Like any other player, we're hungry for Bayld. 100k Wildskeeper KIs, gear, augments etc. It adds up, and its allot.

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

I can't deal enough damage to get a decent evaluation on BLU, when most of the people out there can double my damage output with Relic/Emp WS or even Wildskeeper weapons, the Reive object, be it roots, or rocks, die very fast.

Leaving you with less than 500exp/bayld when enough rock smashers show up and race to finish the object's destruction attempting to do the same they do 'Smash allot, and fast,' which of course many can't.

Maybe I can help with getting monsters dead?

Nope. For the same reasons Single Target, or Single Party healers get frustrated with Summoners, those of us among the 'I just don't want to stand in front of a rock and smash it DPS race' get frustrated with Paladins. I'd like to kill the monster to output some offense, and maybe generate some heals/support scores in the process. I can't survive the AoE spam that many Reive mobs have, in the heart of Paladin tanking country.

I know the 'just stand in front of object and swing crowd' loves a good Paladin that can just hold the monsters the whole Reive, but again, hey single target healers, where is the argument that only 1 player receiving any damage the whole fight leaves room for more than 1 healer/support class to make any meaningful bayld/exp?

I'm extremely happy for Paladins resurgence, and I hope people start to realize that a PLD being good, is also a strong indication that RDM should be back in the plan too.

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

[RAIST]

Yes, if you've made one thing clear it's that this is all about you.

Why not respond to Pugs statement?

/sigh

I don't need to respond to it because I liked it...as in I clicked the button. Basically it is in line with what has been stated repeatedly here and across various forums. It's touched on throughout the post, but go back and read the last paragraph again...pretty much sums it up:


The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

The real problem is that currently virtually only 3 things are needed to get a good score: do damage, take damage, and recover hp. The rest needs to brought into proper balance.

[Malphius]

So you agree though then that the other support job classes will never get good scores with SMN healing around? Even if you don't agree the ability should be removed or the other jobs improved with in the event?

I think a more productive thread should be started suggesting ways for Reives to be improved. This was started as just my one observation but others have chimed in with other experiences that I didn't know were happening either. Lets just call a truce. This isn't going anywhere and we won't agree.

[RAIST]

So you agree though then that the other support job classes will never get good scores with SMN healing around? Even if you don't agree the ability should be removed or the other jobs improved with in the event?

No..as has been shown throughout the thread, mages CAN get good scores regardless, if they adapt.

[Edit:] in reply to an earlier post...
no, this has not been all about me....it's about misinformation, misrepresentation

[Malphius]

Stick out an olive branch and this is what I get.


The real problem is that currently virtually only 3 things are needed to get a good score: do damage, take damage, and recover hp. The rest needs to brought into proper balance.

You just said only 3 things get you good exp/bayld. Why would mages show up to melee for dismal rewards when they can just come on their best DD jobs, which by the way contributes to the quicker destruction of the Reive.


[Edit:] in reply to an earlier post...
no, this has not been all about me....it's about misinformation, misrepresentation

Then why say lock the thread if I'm not going to read your post?

[RAIST]

Stick out an olive branch and this is what I get.
What you posted wasn't right, so I corrected it.


You just said only 3 things get you good exp/bayld. Why would mages show up to melee for dismal rewards when they can just come on their best DD jobs, which by the way contributes to the quicker destruction of the Reive.

If they want to put everything on hold and go job change....possible running to the porter moogle, or logging on a different character(or worse, muling gear)...more power to them. What if they don't want to bother with it? What if they are the kind that actually comes prepared for just this kind of thing, and can simply adjust their strategy on the fly?

These types of events are designed in a way that supports alternative playstyles. It's one of those rare situations that allows people to step outside of the cookie cutters and experience their jobs in new ways if they want. For some, there is a lot of untapped potential in some jobs...this is a great opportunity to unlock that.

And meleeing doesn't automatically end the reive faster. The idea is to have fewer people on the obstruction, so it lasts longer and the mobs keep respawning. And yes, this includes the mages. Why it's important to gear better if you can. It's the same tactic used in campaign when the belfries would show up--smack it a few times, maybe hit it with a DoT, but try to avoid destroying it so it keeps throwing new mobs out for you to smack around. Everyone benefits from a longer fight, more mobs, more rewards.

[Malphius]

What you posted wasn't right, so I corrected it.



If they want to put everything on hold and go job change....possible running to the porter moogle, or logging on a different character(or worse, muling gear)...more power to them. What if they don't want to bother with it? What if they are the kind that actually comes prepared for just this kind of thing, and can simply adjust their strategy on the fly?

These types of events are designed specifically to allow contraversial playstyles. It's one of those rare situations that allows people to step outside of the cookie cutters and experience their jobs in new ways if they want. For some, there is a lot of untapped potential in some jobs...this is a great opportunity to unlock that.

And meleeing doesn't automatically end the reive faster. The idea is to have fewer people on the obstruction, so it lasts longer and the mobs keep respawning. And yes, this includes the mages. Why it's important to gear better if you can. It's the same tactic used in campaign when the belfries would show up--smack it a few times, maybe hit it with a DoT, but try to avoid destroying it so it keeps throwing new mobs out for you to smack around. Everyone benefits from a longer fight, more mobs, more rewards.

And can a WHM or GEO melee as good as a SAM or WAR? The answer is of course no. Since you agree with Pug and even liked his reply you must agree when he said


And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

Certainly that isn't going to be a melee mage.

[RAIST]

Then why say lock the thread if I'm not going to read your post?

sarcasm....as noted earlier, it doesn't always translate well on a forum.

[RAIST]

And can a WHM or GEO melee as good as a SAM or WAR? The answer is of course no. Since you agree with Pug and even liked his reply you must agree when he said



Certainly that isn't going to be a melee mage.

Guessing you never went to a KRT burn....

It's kind of Apples and oranges comparison with the jobs you used, but if you put the same weapons in each of their hands, you might be surprised at what those mages are capable of in comparison.

But here's something else to consider. Can those jobs do everything else that a mage can do in addition to melee?

[Malphius]

Guessing you never went to a KRT burn....

It's kind of Apples and oranges comparison with the jobs you used, but if you put the same weapons in each of their hands, you might be surprised at what those mages are capable of.

But here's something else to consider. Can those jobs do everything else that a mage can do in addition to melee?

Sure I did KRT all the time but do you mean MNK burn or BLM burn? It doesn't matter.

Yes it's Apples and Oranges and that's the intention. No SAM or WAR can't do everything a melee WHM or GEO can but it doesn't matter because they are better rewarded for their 1 function. A melee mage will never create the kind of points off of meleeing that a DD will regardless of what they are doing. They won't be curing much so what's left? Paralyze? Dia? Who cares you don't get rewarded for it. You are rewarded for not buffing and not debuffing because as you yourself have noted, you are only well rewarded for 3 things. There is a lot of incentive to let people get beat up on.

[RAIST]

Sure I did KRT all the time but do you mean MNK burn or BLM burn? It doesn't matter.

Yes it's Apples and Oranges and that's the intention. No SAM or WAR can't do everything a melee WHM or GEO can but it doesn't matter because they are better rewarded for their 1 function. A melee mage will never create the kind of points off of meleeing that a DD will regardless of what they are doing. They won't be curing much so what's left? Paralyze? Dia? Who cares you don't get rewarded for it. You are rewarded for not buffing and not debuffing because as you yourself have noted, you are only well rewarded for 3 things. There is a lot of incentive to let people get beat up on.

no.. WHM burns....thought that would have been obvious.

And yes, go back and read the list. We are supposed to get rewarded for buffs and enfeebles, as well as resists, raises, and mp recovery.

There is a LOT of potential in there for mages to exploit. The problem is it doesn't currently appear to be weighted properly for mages to take advantage of these categories (or people haven't really exploited it very well yet).

Therein lies the problem. If people aren't willing to try, will we ever truly know the potential?

All I can say is, from my ~1 hour test with WHM, I was encouraged...just didn't have time to tweak the build in that short span (still have older gear in the macros). I just have some stuff I need to do on NIN atm, so gonna be on that for a while. Eventually though, I will be getting on BLM to see what I can pull off with everything in it's arsenal...more accustomed to working with that job. It should be fun.

[Malphius]

no.. WHM burns....thought that would have been obvious.

And yes, go back and read the list. We are supposed to get rewarded for buffs and enfeebles, as well as resists, raises, and mp recovery.

There is a LOT of potential in there for mages to exploit. The problem is it doesn't currently appear to be weighted properly for mages to take advantage of these categories (or people haven't really exploited it very well yet).

Therein lies the problem. If people aren't willing to try, will we ever truly know the potential?

All I can say is, from my ~1 hour test with WHM, I was encouraged...just didn't have time to tweak the build in that short span (still have older gear in the macros). I just have some stuff I need to do on NIN atm, so gonna be on that for a while. Eventually though, I will be getting on BLM to see what I can pull off with everything in it's arsenal...more accustomed to working with that job. It should be fun.

Oh yeah no I'm sorry I never wasted time playing melee WHM in KRT.

Do you know there is a distinguishment between the exp/bayld through out the battle and the total tally? You have read that reives objectives only get rewarded in a higher end tally right? Casting pro/shell/para/what ever isn't enough to make a reasonable difference when stacked against the continuous bonus of doing great DD or great healing.

[RAIST]

Oh yeah no I'm sorry I never wasted time playing melee WHM in KRT.

Do you know there is a distinguishment between the exp/bayld through out the battle and the total tally? You have read that reives objectives only get rewarded in a higher end tally right? Casting pro/shell/para/what ever isn't enough to make a reasonable difference when stacked against the continuous bonus of doing great DD or great healing.

Again.... part of the problem that SE needs to address.

[Silvers]

So I guess if NPCs were added to these fights, you would complain SCH and /SCH is broken as well?


Keep in mind that anyone can use /sch not just 1 job.

I don't see the problem you been trying to describe here because other mages can /smn. It isn't a new concept for a whm to do either. The healing and most of the buff BPs are available under 50. One issue you going to run into is AoE's one-shoting pet.


So since we can't change the event and we can't make Curaga follow the same rules as bloodpacts and pet moves can we make Accession follow those same rules? I proposed Curaga to prove a point which someone was kind enough to make for me.

If we use Accession it applies to all jobs that sub Scholar and it's on a time limit fairly consistent with BST and SMN timers.

This may not be necessary, though I wouldn't oppose it being implemented for cures, status cures, and buffs you can cast on others outside of party (protect & shell). Before you go on about things you think should be done, try /smn then get back to us afterwards.

[Ketaru]

Might I just observe:

Casting Heals/Buffs/Debuffs to get EXP in Campaign/Reive on lowbie jobs- Exploit! NERF!

Leveling from level 30 to 99 in a matter of hours in Abyssea- TOTALLY LEGIT DEWD!

[SNK]

Oh yeah no I'm sorry I never wasted time playing melee WHM in KRT.

You really have no clue the amount of awesome you missed then. >_>

[Alhanelem]

You just said only 3 things get you good exp/bayld. Why would mages show up to melee for dismal rewards when they can just come on their best DD jobs, which by the way contributes to the quicker destruction of the Reive. Becaues mages can do things that melee can't and additionally melee and end up with just as good if not better scores.

[Jackstin]

I don't think you're going to be able to settle for a draw on this one Malphius, these guys are out for blood. My advice, if you don't want to concede a defeat, is to ignore this thread.

For what it's worth I agree that the content isn't balanced and some jobs do better, easier than others. But for me, I'd rather the game as a whole is balanced. SMN being overpowered in reives makes the game more balanced. It's two different ways of looking at things.

[Raksha]

Becaues mages can do things that melee can't and additionally melee and end up with just as good if not better scores.

When you say "mages" are you including SMN?

[Alhanelem]

When you say "mages" are you including SMN?
Especially SMN.

[Raksha]

Can SMN "do things that melee can't and additionally melee and end up with just as good if not better scores" without ever using Whispering Wind or the Leviathan one, (if it has the same properties (I.E. cure everyone in the areas instead of PT only))?

[Lithera]

No he is not saying both. You also just proved my point

[Alhanelem]

Can SMN "do things that melee can't and additionally melee and end up with just as good if not better scores" without ever using Whispering Wind or the Leviathan one, (if it has the same properties (I.E. cure everyone in the areas instead of PT only))?
Um, what? Whispering Wind and "the leviathan one" are "things melee cant do." Also Thunderstorm or any magical BP which are quite effective. Last I checked, WAR and SAM and DRK and NIN didn't have avatars or healing magic. Did something change here that I didn't know about?

This statement also includes all mages, including WHM or SCH... I have no difficulty using ST cures on people and really don't understand your original complaint in the first place- What i'm trying to tell you is that by being on one of these mage jobs, the fact that you can melee like anyone else and also perform other actions that most melee can't perform, you can get a good score. By choosing not to melee, you're only punishing yourself.


No he is not saying both. You also just proved my point Mp, he proved nothing? i don't see it.

[Raksha]

You are reading more into my question than is there. I dont play SMN, so i'm just trying to figure out your position.

All i want to know is can SMN get higher points than non mages without using the aoe cures that the OP is complaining about?

[Alhanelem]

You can use them, so why wouldn't you? Obviously you're not going to score as high if you don't use them- but you can still get a reasonable amount of points. I did and I was rarely ever healing.

[Raksha]

only a reasonable amount? or more than non-mages?

[Alhanelem]

only a reasonable amount? or more than non-mages?
I don't know about all jobs because I don't have them all. I don't think anybody can touch a PLD, but I get about the same that I get on PUP, regardless of which automaton. Was in a Wilds reieve and the PLDs got like twice as much as everyone else; most of the other players were fairly close together.

The most difficult job to earn contribution on to me is GEO, because geomancy earns no/minimal contribution. You can melee and you can nuke, which is okay, but the main thing your job is supposed to be about doesn't earn you much. WHMs really should have no trouble, the orginal concern in this thread is mostly invalid. I've thrown single target cures on SMN with other SMNs in the area using Aoe heals- there's nothing hard about it. Most reieves spam enough AoE damage that there's always somebody you can cure.

[Malphius]

The most difficult job to earn contribution on to me is GEO, because geomancy earns no/minimal contribution. You can melee and you can nuke, which is okay, but the main thing your job is supposed to be about doesn't earn you much. WHMs really should have no trouble, the orginal concern in this thread is mostly invalid. I've thrown single target cures on SMN with other SMNs in the area using Aoe heals- there's nothing hard about it. Most reieves spam enough AoE damage that there's always somebody you can cure.

My concern isn't invalid, it happens all the time. Not every time but often enough to be discouraged in coming on a mage job.

Through out this conversation I have been told that since I can't really cure people, that I should (lol)melee or perform some other function. That by doing this I will increase my potential for more points and that they should a reasonable amount of points.

As it has been my position that BP's be party only, why is it that SMN should be excluded from taking their own suggestion? If they truly work as well as everyone has suggested then what's the problem? I think everyone here knows that it's not a very effective answer. With everyone walking around at 79/80 inventory is anyone really going to build a DD set for their mages? I'm not. I have the following sets for my mages: hMP, idle, cure, aspir, enhancing, mab and enfeebling. I don't have room for tp and ws as well. What I and most likely many others will do, is just come on their best DD job as that is far more effective.

My issue with this ability is that it places SMN and BST at a large advantage. With one move they heal everyone around them at the same time(which because of the confined space is usually everyone on one side of the wall). With 5 or 6 other mages single target curing (and SMN may also do this just as Al does) is that they all have equal opportunity to perform that function on the same ground as anyone else around them. It's up to personal skill and ability.

I understand SMN and BST not wanting to lose this ability. It's pretty awesome no doubt. Maybe another solution would be to make it target anybody playing solo. This way anyone in a standard party can still function and anyone outside a party wanting to solo could still take advantage of pet cures and SMN and BST would retain the ability.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

They're still complaining about this?

Been running smn in reives for a week now and I can tell you, I gained far less then half what I would have then if I was on drg.

[RAIST]

For the inventory challenged players concerned about regearing for melee, you may not really need a massive overhaul to increase your melee damage. As an example, for club/staff weilding jobs, you are likely already carrying and using pieces that mod your WS, so just swapping a few pieces can have a profound effect on your melee potential. One may already have a lot of those pieces if they have a DD job geared up and/or participated in the older content to a reasonable degree. Not talking about uber high gearing here....things that are fairly easy to farm/quest/buy. Items that add things like DA, Haste, StoreTP, ACC and such that are available to all jobs, readily attainable, and very likely to be stored somewhere in one of the many containers. They can easily be held in sack/satchel and swapped in/out for less important pieces as needed if your main inventory is tight. And, there is also the addition of food. You may be surprised how much a difference some foods can make.

It isn't rocket science tweaking...just a little fine tuning here and there can go a long way sometimes.

[Lithera]

Mp, he proved nothing? i don't see it.

Bah read post wrong on 1st try. He proved my point that he would continue to whine.

[Jackstin]

They're still complaining about this?

Been running smn in reives for a week now and I can tell you, I gained far less then half what I would have then if I was on drg.

DRG is fantastic in reiv....I mean....nothing to see here. Move along. No nerfing necessary.

[Malphius]

DRG is fantastic in reiv....I mean....nothing to see here. Move along. No nerfing necessary.

Dragoon doesn't affect other players. It's no wonder SE ignores the SMN community. I think i'll start to follow suit.

[Alhanelem]

DRG is fantastic in reiv....I mean....nothing to see here. Move along. No nerfing necessary.
Gotta agree with this sentiment. and the whole AHOOOOGGA AHOOOGA ALERT ALRERT SMN DOES SOMETHING USEFUL! EXECUTE NERFBAT.EXE WITH ALL DUE HASTE! thing.

[Babekeke]

With everyone walking around at 79/80 inventory is anyone really going to build a DD set for their mages? I'm not. I have the following sets for my mages: hMP, idle, cure, aspir, enhancing, mab and enfeebling. I don't have room for tp and ws as well.

So... you're already carrying an aspir set with you, which naturally includes capped haste gear, so you are already good for that for meleeing. And if you have mystic boon unlocked, or you're using staff with spirit taker, you no longer need your HMP set, or your idle set probably, unless that includes fast cast gear. Certainly don't need movement speed/auto refresh gear.

I did a reive on BRD for the first time the other day. More because there was a reive in the way of running back from Delve than planning to do a reive on BRD. I was surprised at how much bayld I got, tbh. I gave up on meleeing because I kept forgetting that every time I slept/elegy'd a mob, I'd swap to staff, and every time I needed to re-buff I'd swap back to dagger. So most of my points were from enfeeb and buffs (on the 3 of us in pt) with a couple of cure 3s, and I ended up with 925 on the final evaluation (first time I've ever seen the same exp as bayld on final eval though). Total bayld for the fight was about 2k from eyeballing.

[Malphius]

Gotta agree with this sentiment. and the whole AHOOOOGGA AHOOOGA ALERT ALRERT SMN DOES SOMETHING USEFUL! EXECUTE NERFBAT.EXE WITH ALL DUE HASTE! thing.

Dragoon has always been a good DD. Stardiver made it even better. It's typically the players that suck at DRG not DRG sucking as a job.

[Babekeke]

Dragoon has always been a good DD. Stardiver made it even better. It's typically the players that suck at DRG not DRG sucking as a job.

This is the single, best contribution that you've had to this thread lol.

P.S. is the quote in your signature correct? Should it not be "if you fool the right ones...? Or was that intended in the quote?

[Malphius]

No you're right on the quote lol i'll have to fix it.

[Alhanelem]

Dragoon has always been a good DD. Stardiver made it even better. It's typically the players that suck at DRG not DRG sucking as a job.I never picked on DRG and don't have any problem with it as a DD, so I don't know why you're telling me this?

[Malphius]

I never picked on DRG and don't have any problem with it as a DD, so I don't know why you're telling me this?

The post you were quoting was because SMN's were complaining their job isn't good at anything.

[Jackstin]

Dragoon has always been a good DD. Stardiver made it even better. It's typically the players that suck at DRG not DRG sucking as a job.

Agree on this, I have no idea why DRG is considered weak. It's just awesome.

[Lithera]

Because most people ignored the damage the wyvern did. Along with until super jump the Drg wouldn't have a way to she'd their own hate. That normally ended with them dead. Drg was a job you wanted in somethings back at 75 but didn't want to help them get there. Same thing happened with Pup.

[Rekin]

Because most people ignored the damage the wyvern did. Along with until super jump the Drg wouldn't have a way to she'd their own hate. That normally ended with them dead. Drg was a job you wanted in somethings back at 75 but didn't want to help them get there. Same thing happened with Pup.

People ignored wyvern dmg was because it became increasingly insignificant as players gained more and more buffs for alliance events and monsters gained in strength whilst wyvern had nothing to use aside its base stats. Back then a wyvern would contribute about 10% of a drg's total damage and it allowed drg to parse equally against equally well geared sam/drks/mnks in merit parties but then again most of the time the drg had 25% dmg bonus from piercing weak mobs.

Since then drg hasn't gained any significant attack buffs and suffer from having weapon skills with no or a negative attack modifier (Drakes and Stardiver) if it had a ws of equal strength of its current endgame selection but with an attack bonus (30%+) then dragoon would be considered something somewhat significant. Also unlike WAR/DRK/SAM Drg has to chose between JA Haste/survivability/xhit (/sam) or attack bonus (/war) when joining alliance groups whilst the other 2handed DD jobs don't have to make such a choice.

Not all is bad because DRG has great survivability between jumps/breaths but any form of AOE dmg screws up their wyvern where at most even with spirit link/Steady wing the wyvern can at most survive 4 tp moves and then any debuffs(mainly paralyze and amnesia) absolutely destroy drg's ability to survive using their wyvern.

[Lithera]

Oh I know trust me I got to 75 on my nin draging my husband along on his goon. He loathed it when call wyvern was the 2hr and when people would groan when finding out what job he would becoming to parties to. Thankfully thfs loved him because he would allow em to SA on him n then TA n WS on me. Then he'd super jump. Heck there have been some BCNM type fights that he was the last person standing and wound up getting the win after 2hring with the one they have now.

[Jackstin]

Can we get back to how SMN needs to be nerfed in reives? That was funny.

[Lithera]

No, please let's just agree that rieves still need some tweaking by SE and leave it at that.