Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

[Camate]

Greetings everyone,

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui about level 99 relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes weapons.



Matsui here.

I have some follow-up information regarding how we plan to build on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes ("coin") weapons (I'll refer to them as RMEC below. Apologies that I left out coin weapons in my last post).

There are many who feel upset and uneasy regarding the recently introduced weapons, as well as the information that has been conveyed until now. So while this information is still not finalized, I would like to give a bit more insight into our plans.

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form (this includes non-afterglow weapons, and shield/instruments will not be included in this). However, we plan on adding some conditions that fall in line with the jobs that can equip the respective RMEC weapons.

As we have yet to finish all the testing as to whether or not we can do this, please let me again reiterate that this is not yet finalized.

Due to the nature of this topic, we definitely need to proceed carefully, so despite the fact that I'm only mentioning this at the idea level, I understand that the level of disappointment will be quite great if I say that it is too difficult to accomplish this after all, and I was thinking it would be best to let you all know once it took a bit more shape.

You're probably thinking "if that’s the case, then don’t announce anything," but because I thought it wouldn't be good to not let you know anything until plans were finalized I decided to make this post. (I've been under so much stress I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer >< But I know I shouldn't be complaining.)

While the memories you made and the stats on your equipment cannot always be proportionate, we are trying our best to see if we can keep all of the effort spent on earning these weapons intact.

We plan to do all that we can, but please give us some time for this.


He also follows up on a player's comment, which I've summarized below:






I have the following questions/comments regarding the unlocking of these special weapon skills, and I'm sure a lot of others are thinking the same:

- Relics: There are gaps in a lot of the weapon skills for these weapons. For example, there is no special advantage to Knights of Round or Scourge, while on the other hand unlocking Catastrophe or Coronach would lead to the destruction of balance.

- Mythic: These weapon skills can already be unlocked through the quest "Unlocking a Myth."

- Empyrean/Coin: How will these weapon skills be differentiated for the two weapons?


I was thinking this question would pop up.

I apologize, but unfortunately I am unable to answer anything at this point in time. One of the reasons I felt I should not have mentioned anything during a stage where various things have not been finalized yet, despite prefacing it that this is non-finalized information, was following up on individual specific questions based on supposition.

Being silent because it's not possible to answer right now would remove the whole purpose of why I posted, but on the other hand, continuing to entertain suppositions would cause expectations to grow even more wild. As a result of this, things that I didn't promise would turn into promises, and I would like to avoid making it seem like we are breaking promises.

With that said, the answer for the moment for many things will be "Sorry, but I cannot answer that right now."

Once the content has been fleshed out and confirmed I will be sure to let you all know the details, but please give me some time.

[Dazusu]

This is a joke, right? It's May 1st, not April 1st. Unless AM and ODD/ODT travels with the Weaponskill, this is offensive. More so to people who only recently finished.

[Vivik]

What has been done is completely unacceptable and nothing short of adjusting the damage on REM will do. Period. My accounts go inactive on May 18th and I won't be resubbing until an acceptable resolution to this terrible development direction has been established.

[Kojo]

Camate, in the words of Leslie Nielsen "We're all counting on you, good luck."

Can you please let Matsui know that no one uses relic WSs and that that solution has only served to disappoint relic owners more?

Also, we're all counting on you, good luck.

Can you also let him know that many players feel he made too big a jump in rendering even Skirmish obsolete?

We're all counting on you, good luck.

[Mefuki]

The simplest and dirtiest solution is just tack on +75 or however much onto RME so they're still a little better than everything else. It's still kinda lazy but problem solved.

Edit: Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to just have our 99 weapon's DMG changed one update to be competitive with the new HQ Rare/EX drops. They should be a trial or a series of trials that allow them to reach that level.

[Kojo]

The simplest and dirtiest solution is just tack on +75 or however much onto RME so they're still a little better than everything else. It's still kinda lazy but problem solved.

The max you could get on Crobaci is about 179, Senbaak +1 is 247, that's a 68 dmg boost, +75 would make Ragnarok 218, which still falls WAY short.

[Ica]

This is a bad idea and the devs should feel bad.

[Dazusu]

Can you please let Matsui know that no one uses relic WSs and that that solution has only served to disappoint relic owners more?

Catastrophe, Coronach and Namas Arrow disagree with you.

It concerns me given the fact that well over half the population own a Relic now, we're hearing about such stupid potential changes. Hopefully the JP players sling poop about this - because that's the only way anything is going to be done.

[Kouryuu]

250 mil for a WS. That has got to be THE WORST thing i have ever heard when it has come to REM upgrades. Especially when most of the WSs tied to these weapons are pretty much useless. If REM 99s dont get a DMG boost to put them back up to par with the newly added weapons there will be absolutely no point in upgrading them. You have to also take into account it is not just the time, cost, effort that will be wasted.. it is the unique model of the REM weapons also. No other weapons look like REMs, they should be kept as unique as they have been for all these years.

[BorkBorkBork]

That has got to be one of the poorest dev responses that I have ever seen written. Basically says sorry you feel that your time has been wasted, and we have no plan in place but are panicking trying to come up with one. Please stay tuned.

[Unaisis]

If they made regular weapons that ridiculous then why not make REMs even more ridiculous?... like a Rag with 315 dmg and such >.>

[Draylo]

Must be a joke..? There are plenty of fixes to keep these weapons relevant, opening their WS is not one of them.

[Kojo]

Must be a joke..? There are plenty of fixes to keep these weapons relevant, opening their WS is not one of them.

Actually, Opening the WS would make the weapon LESS relevant.

[dartcron]

I think a simpler way of balancing Relics/Mythics would be to increase the damage on the weaponskill they grant, so if the modifier would be higher and therefor validating using them. I think possibly have a huge damage increase as well when they reach the afterglow stage so that they are slightly lower then these current weapons in game would be good.

[Dreamin]

Maybe a quest that will lock your 'ws along with its corresponding AM' based on the 'level and condition' of the RME(C) that you trade it at the time of the quest? [This would be great and it also would be inventory +1 space per ws you want to do].

Or if SE is more evil, make it so that this quest essentially freeze the 'trial' that is on the weapon when you do this quest and then you have to have it in your inventory for you to gain the 'ws and the corresponding AM'.

This would give you the same AM that most ppl really care the most about AND allow you to progress to the newer and better weapons.

[Zumi]

I tossed my WoE weapons when I got empyreans lol

[Yambo99]

No just no, stop being stupid.

Instead of bringing new content out, fix your current content and stop wasting peoples time. end of.

[Yambo99]

Actually, Opening the WS would make the weapon LESS relevant.

Mythics are already open, so they are saying "if you've done a mythic tough......"

always nice to see.
SE want us all to quit, Bringing out Delve and monsters which rage after 15minutes, then get rid of REMs which would of been a way to do Delve............... Bring back the old Dev team...

[Oceanz]

The only thing I can do is unsubscribe. Its not much, but it feels good knowing that I am not contributing 300$ + a year for this kind of treatment.

GL with this direction SE.
/unsubscribed

[Zumi]

Are you guys going to lower the amount of plates and riftdross/riftcinder needed for empyreans? Well because if you have some 90 empyreans its more cost effective to go back and make the WoE Coin version if you want the Empyrean WS.

[Kojo]

Catastrophe, Coronach and Namas Arrow disagree with you.

It concerns me given the fact that well over half the population own a Relic now, we're hearing about such stupid potential changes. Hopefully the JP players sling poop about this - because that's the only way anything is going to be done.

I can't exactly comment on Coronach and Namas Arrow, because I'm not RNG (or SAM). As for Catastrophe, Catastrophe is a utility WS used for survival with a spiffy Haste effect thrown into the mix. You don't get Apoc solely for damage, that's why many DRKs have Ragnarok.

[Altimaomega]

Played this game for 10 yrs, never posted here before.
This is very simple, Make it so i can upgrade my R/E/M's so they have the some what the same damage as these new weapons.
If this very SIMPLE resolution is not taken care of SOON, i will more than happily quit this game FOREVER.

P.S.
So will more than likely 75% of your R/E/M holders.

[Zohno]

REM have hidden effects, aftermaths. people spent time and money to get them.
now we are left with the possibility to use the ws without equipping them?
moreover they are replaced by what, with time, will be simply buyable on ah?

at least make the weapons upgradeable using the same system applied to the new 3 sets.
solving everything with unlocking a ws is just unacceptable.

[Ryce]

Is the higher base damage the only real advantage to these new weapons over REMs? If so, I think a decent solution is a new tier of Trial on those REMs that calls for the collection of the new weapon (of same type) and results in your REM with the base damage matched to the collected new weapon. Surely the AM and other bonuses on REM beat out the stats on the new weapons (assuming the base damage is the same).

This gives newer (poorer) players a shot at good equipment, while preserving the elite status of REMs.

[detlef]

Amazing. I thought I'd go down with the servers but here we are...

[Insaniac]

At least he came to us with this preliminary idea so we could tell him how incredibly bad it is.

[Richwood]

Played this game for 10 yrs, never posted here before.
This is very simple, Make it so i can upgrade my R/E/M's so they have the some what the same damage as these new weapons.
If this very SIMPLE resolution is not taken care of SOON, i will more than happily quit this game FOREVER.


P.S.
So will more than likely 75% of your R/E/M holders.

I registered with forums when SE came out with there whole new SE account management system. But never posted till recently. I am in the same boat as a 10 year player. I not only find this insulting but out right disgraceful on SEs part. I have been a long term supporter of Square(soft)Enix but enough is a enough with this roller-coaster they have created in the last 2 years. Most of it was tolerable, this however is not!

[Zohnax]

Matsui here.

I have some follow-up information regarding how we plan to build on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes ("coin") weapons (I'll refer to them as RMEC below. Apologies that I left out coin weapons in my last post).

There are many who feel upset and uneasy regarding the recently introduced weapons, as well as the information that has been conveyed until now. So while this information is still not finalized, I would like to give a bit more insight into our plans.

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form (this includes non-afterglow weapons, and shield/instruments will not be included in this). However, we plan on adding some conditions that fall in line with the jobs that can equip the respective RMEC weapons.
This, is an asinine idea. The amount of effort and/or gil required in order to obtain a Level 99 Relic/Mythic/Empyrean is quite high and the possibility to even upgrade to Lv99 was only implemented a little over a year ago. Do you honestly believe the Weapon Skills from Relics and Empyreans are worth roughly 200million gil? They are not, especially if you are going to spit in the face of players by putting Coin weapons on the same level as Relics/Mythics/Empyreans, which they honestly should not even be on your radar because they are so easy and cheap to upgrade to Level 99.


As we have yet to finish all the testing as to whether or not we can do this, please let me again reiterate that this is not yet finalized.

Due to the nature of this topic, we definitely need to proceed carefully, so despite the fact that I'm only mentioning this at the idea level, I understand that the level of disappointment will be quite great if I say that it is too difficult to accomplish this after all, and I was thinking it would be best to let you all know once it took a bit more shape.
You are proceeding very poorly with this game and the feedback we are getting on these forums lately. Players raised their voices in outrage about the recent implementation of weapons that had comparable base damage with R/M/E, or better, and can perform just as good, or better, with the Merit Weapon Skills. But what do you guys do? Drop in a bunch of weapons that make sure R/M/E weapons are completely crushed out of the picture and insult us by saying once you get the weapon to Lv. 99 you can simply unlock the weapon skill to use with these new ones? Quite frankly, if you want to go back to Trial of the Magians to upgrade these weapons further, I do not think the playerbase will be in a massive uproar just because you said it would not be upgraded that way before. Remember that too? You said they would be upgradable, not spit on all of our efforts that took absorbent amounts of time and gil to accomplish.


You're probably thinking "if that’s the case, then don’t announce anything," but because I thought it wouldn't be good to not let you know anything until plans were finalized I decided to make this post. (I've been under so much stress I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer >< But I know I shouldn't be complaining.)

While the memories you made and the stats on your equipment cannot always be proportionate, we are trying our best to see if we can keep all of the effort spent on earning these weapons intact.

We plan to do all that we can, but please give us some time for this.
You did announce something; that our efforts would not be wasted. By simply unlocking the weapon skill, you're wasting our efforts. At least Tanaka knew something I do not think you do, which is that FFXI is not a typical MMO where all gear and weapons get replaced every month or two. R/M/E and even Salvage gear have been brought this far, and have all been some of the hardest objectives to accomplish, and again, to spit on everyone's hard work like you are by saying what you did here, it just blows my mind. If you carry out with this ridiculous notion, I am almost positive you can expect a massive drop in your playerbase, and don't think that will help FFX|V. People will think, "Square Enix," and end up avoiding it because of the bad taste that will be left in the mouths of players from FFXI.

[Altimaomega]

Lets rally people, Fix our weapons the correct way or WE ALL QUIT!

[Yambo99]

I registered with forums when SE came out with there whole new SE account management system. But never posted till recently. I am in the same boat as a 10 year player. I not only find this insulting but out right disgraceful on SEs part. I have been a long term supporter of Square(soft)Enix but enough is a enough with this roller-coaster they have created in the last 2 years. Most of it was tolerable, this however is not!

Agreed, the whole point if Final fantasy games if you truly think about is go for the ultimate weapons, which FF game has the ultimate game not been chasing after that weapon. none..... They are going down the wrong road with this..... you best turn off at the next junction to try save it. Or say bye bye to 75% of your player basis.

[Sargent]

I've not got a Relic/Mythic Weapon. My Emp Staff is used for the Weapon Skill, my Emp GK is more or less collecting dust. So from the perspective of someone who doesn't actually use this type of weapon, I gotta say this is a terrible solution. Is it really so hard to increase the base damage on Lv.80+ RMECs?

Back at 75 I was working on Nirvana before Salvage died. I'd be extremely pissed if I actually finished it considering the main focus is the Avatar:MAB. Same with Laevateinn/Tupsimati (although these were nearly always obsolete compared to elemental staves).
Now look at Relics. If hell freezes over and you make the worse Relic Weapon Skills relevant, this will not fix the issue. Many people upgraded these weapons for;
a) the base damage, which is now lost
b) for the exclusivity (which to be fair, they'll still have) and;
c) the additional effects (as in Occasional damage boost)

And finally Empryeans, which to be fair most people never got to 99 due to the gil sink. You'd still lose the aftermath and base damage, of which was higher than non Relic weapons of that level anyway. Even then it's easier to make a Coin Weapon, you can do it in Upper Jeuno in 5 minutes provided the items are for sale.

tl'dr, Just up the base damage (and effects on Nirvana/Laevateinn/Tupsimati), it's a much, much easier path to take.

[Ica]

Lets rally people, Fix our weapons the correct way or WE ALL QUIT!

The four accounts played between myself and my husband are already set to lapse this month.

[BlackMack]

Why can't we keep things simple? Why does everything have to be extremely complicated? Just add base DMG to relic/empy/mythics, and make it something that's not going to take weeks of grinding (Please, for the love of everything no more WS killshot trials..).

Would it be possible to have some kind of 1 on 1 fight between you and the "ghost" that gives you your relic when you hand in the final stage? I mean.. anything to keep it exciting and require effort as well. I know mythics and empyreans would require something different, but it wouldn't be too difficult to make something cool. 1v1 versus Shinyru for Empyreans or something, I don't know.

In short, making RE (mythics >_>) weaponskills available for other weapons just devalues the weapon itself. Even if the other buffs don't carry over (Ragnarok's crit rate V, the emnity- on ranged relics, the odd on empyreans), that is still devaluing everything that we've done in the past couple years.. and longer if you've had your relic since 75 cap.

As someone said before... Camate, we leave this in your hands. I really feel if Matsui had a character on this game and made a relic empyrean or mythic from scratch to 99, he'd understand our feelings a lot more. Please be our voice of reason, Camate.

[Richwood]

It is not just the bad taste from SE's FFXI, mainly all their games have been just lack luster, mediocre, or a poor excuse of what some other company already accomplished successfully "game-clone." What has kept SE alive is FFXI. The reason is that FFXI is unique over all other MMOs in its diverse longevity of building newer content partial inclusive of older content. I know it has been said many times, but turning this game into a gear mill is just going to send SE down in a blazing glory of failure.

[Nebo]

You're probably thinking "if that’s the case, then don’t announce anything," but because I thought it wouldn't be good to not let you know anything until plans were finalized I decided to make this post. (I've been under so much stress I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer >< But I know I shouldn't be complaining.)

To alleviate more unnecessary stress for both yourself and us, I would respectfully suggest that you discuss your plans with the player base through these forums and any other channels you have available to you BEFORE you FINALIZE your plans.

Then, mold your finalized plans based on those discussions. Because internally, you are not understanding the issue. The simple fact that you implemented these weapons before having a plan for RMEC weapons is...something I would expect from a much less established development company, and (forgive me for saying this) unworthy of FFXI.

Simply unlocking the weapon skills is not useful. Maybe 10% of R/M/E/C weapon skills are actually used. The point of building these weapons is not to gain access (mostly) weak weapon skills with TP stat modifiers that don't make any sense.

Unless the FFXI team's purpose is to intentionally wind down and eventually kill FFXI in favour of pushing people toward FFXIV (I doubt this is the case...its not a smart strategy), you better start communicating more with people that have a better understanding of this game.... than anyone on your development team from the looks of things.

The disconnect between your team and what happens in the actual game is STAGGERING. It is going to cost Square Enix more money before this is done.

I understand your stress, I wouldn't even want to read the forums right now if I were you. But if you don't start including us in your decision making process for these "plans," you;re just going to get more of this.

People aren't angry with you because players of FFXI are just inherently unhappy people. People are angry with you because your team continues to make decisions that seem devoid of understanding of some very serious issues in the game...and you aren't listening to us.

[Kojo]

Agreed, the whole point if Final fantasy games if you truly think about is go for the ultimate weapons, which FF game has the ultimate game not been chasing after that weapon. none..... They are going down the wrong road with this..... you best turn off at the next junction to try save it. Or say bye bye to 75% of your player basis.

FFI Didn't have Ultimate Weapons represented as anything special, just the best weapon of a type, if memory serves.

[Kojo]

Why can't we keep things simple? Why does everything have to be extremely complicated? Just add base DMG to relic/empy/mythics, and make it something that's not going to take weeks of grinding (Please, for the love of everything no more WS killshot trials..).

Would it be possible to have some kind of 1 on 1 fight between you and the "ghost" that gives you your relic when you hand in the final stage? I mean.. anything to keep it exciting and require effort as well. I know mythics and empyreans would require something different, but it wouldn't be too difficult to make something cool. 1v1 versus Shinyru for Empyreans or something, I don't know.

In short, making RE (mythics >_>) weaponskills available for other weapons just devalues the weapon itself. Even if the other buffs don't carry over (Ragnarok's crit rate V, the emnity- on ranged relics, the odd on empyreans), that is still devaluing everything that we've done in the past couple years.. and longer if you've had your relic since 75 cap.

As someone said before... Camate, we leave this in your hands. I really feel if Matsui had a character on this game and made a relic empyrean or mythic from scratch to 99, he'd understand our feelings a lot more. Please be our voice of reason, Camate.

Camate, I've seen you translate and send messages to Matsui before, if someone more eloquent than I could put together a message, would you please pass it to him?

[Helel]

Stop screwing with the base damage of ranged weapons. Gun has always had the highest base damage since the game's inception. Why did you suddenly decide to change this...? Both weapons should have their uses, but now you've completely eradicated any use for gun. I actually think bows look cooler, and I don't mind using them, but I do mind my now useless alchemy/smithing craft skills. Thank you for that.

Edit: By base damage I mean both weapon+ammo combined.

[detlef]

I said eloquent, which isn't a set of armor for Red Mage.I can tell you're trying to be funny, but this post is not the place. People are upset, let them be upset. If you want to make jokes, use this thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31485-New-weapons-with-higher-base-damage-then-relics

Not the official SE post on the topic.

[SNK]

You know, even as vauge as he's being about this I understand why he's having to be because he wants to assure you that relics, emps, & mythics will in the end be better then before. He could have just said "Hey ok sorry but new content so you guys gotta adapt or move on" but he's trying to speak with you folks humbly about what they have planned and the amount of hate I'm seeing spew from some of you people is hilarious.

Until the final product is released on the weapons,a lot you should just calm the fuck down and wait if what he does is either the best thing possible or a waste of time. Yes I have a relic and several emps also but I didn't explode in anger over this like a lot of you have.~

[ptown8091]

The big jump in base dmg on these new weapons is stupid Relic emp mythic should always be your highest base dmg weapons I wouldn't mind seeing that only the 99 Emp relic mythic weapons get a big boost in dmg and drop these new weapons dmg down some I've work hard for the weapons I have and still feel like I got screwed from 1500 kill shots on undead before you lower that (NO MORE KILL SHOT BS) now you make a post like this either tell us your going to fix the base dmg on REM weapons or tell us you wasted people's hard work and time to get them so I can quite and never play a game you make again

[Draylo]

You know, even as vauge as he's being about this I understand why he's having to be because he wants to assure you that relics, emps, & mythics will in the end be better then before. He could have just said "Hey ok sorry but new content so you guys gotta adapt or move on" but he's trying to speak with you folks humbly about what they have planned and the amount of hate I'm seeing spew from some of you people is hilarious.

Until the final product is released on the weapons,a lot you should just calm the fuck down and wait if what he does is either the best thing possible or a waste of time. Yes I have a relic and several emps also but I didn't explode in anger over this like a lot of you have.~

Why would we wait to get it fixed when we can stop it before that happens? He already said one of the ideas they have and everyone pretty much hates it. What better way to get feedback than this? Waiting until that idea is released live is stupid because then its harder to go back and fix it.

[Ica]

he wants to assure you that relics, emps, & mythics will in the end be better then before

If he wanted to assure us of this, then this absurd idea should never have been posted to begin with.

[Yambo99]

A simple fix to this is a trial, Your bringing skirmish stuff and delve stuff out. To do delve you state you need skirmish items. SO add a trial to relics just like you have in the past. "Bring me 5 Airlixers" to show you have done Delve to show you trying the new content. In Return your REMs get upgraded to where they should belong.

Look at that i fixed your problem SE now get it done instead of faffing about.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Man the emo kids having another complete melt down at least they are looking at the issue. Hopefully it will be something reasonable. Maybe they will rework the ws that will make them more or less version 2.0 with higher damage modifiers and aftermaths the verdict isn't in yet. You and your weapon become one so to speak.....

[Kojo]

Why would we wait to get it fixed when we can stop it before that happens? He already said one of the ideas they have and everyone pretty much hates it. What better way to get feedback than this? Waiting until that idea is released live is stupid because then its harder to go back and fix it.

Speaking of, what happened to the Test Server? Delve never found its way there, nor Skirmish. The reason Reives and the like didn't is obvious. But the devs keep talking about testing new things, why not let the players test them...on the sever dedicated to that purpose?

[Yambo99]

Man the emo kids having another complete melt down at least they are looking at the issue. Hopefully it will be something reasonable. Maybe they will rework the ws that will make them more or less version 2.0 with higher damage modifiers and aftermaths the verdict isn't in yet. You and your weapon become one so to speak.....

When you have put time and effort into A relic or mythic you can say stuff like this. But don't bother until then.

[Keyln]

So much QQ tears flowing here, it's so delicious.

Honestly, I feel for the development team here. They're trapped between a rock and a whirling whirlpool here. You have this set of ultimate weapons which are supposedly the most powerful weapons in the game. Yet, in order to progress this game, they need to create more powerful enemies, which require more powerful weapons above that mark.

Seriously, just raising the damage on the REMC weapons is only a band-aid solution. What happens when new content and new enemies that require more powerful weapons are released? Just raise it again?

[ptown8091]

O also forgot if your going to let these new weapons get the Relic or Emp weapon skills would be a big slap in the face to everyone. at least that's my two cents know it's not much but my 3-4 accounts will go inactive if something isn't said before my next payment is due already let two accounts go inactive have no problem letting the others go also

[Crimson_Slasher]

Id take a rollback and delve content being removed before i would bend to accept this new content personally. This and the proposed fix are unacceptable, end of story in my book.

[Kojo]

So much QQ tears flowing here, it's so delicious.

Honestly, I feel for the development team here. They're trapped between a rock and a whirling whirlpool here. You have this set of ultimate weapons which are supposedly the most powerful weapons in the game. Yet, in order to progress this game, they need to create more powerful enemies, which require more powerful weapons above that mark.

Seriously, just raising the damage on the REMC weapons is only a band-aid solution. What happens when new content and new enemies that require more powerful weapons are released? Just raise it again?

Precisely.

[Oceanz]

Who are the 5 people who actually liked the OP?!!
There you have it SE, your new player base!

[dartcron]

I think the best and simplest solution to this is to increase the damage on Relic/Empy/Mythics when they reach the afterglow stage to something close to what the best weapons in the game currently have so at least they have a chance at competing.

[Horadrim]

Wow, sucks for you guys.

Still, obviously these aren't regular old WSs, or else it wouldn't take as much through as what they are apparently putting into it -- I'd like to see what it turns out like, but mostly I'm glad I don't have to give a fuck one way or another.

RME's lots my respect when half of the community started walking around with them. When you tell me everyone job in the game only has 3 weapon choices (At the most) and most only have 2, I'm immediately no-longer interested.

[Kojo]

I think the best and simplest solution to this is to increase the damage on Relic/Empy/Mythics when they reach the afterglow stage to something close to what the best weapons in the game currently have so at least they have a chance at competing.

I'd say at 99. Afterglow shouldn't be required.

[alexander45]

Or just doing emergency maint calculating a curve to put actual bravura to 156 99 no glow to 250 dmg so it compete with dev stuff keeping is x2.5 dmg etc ws this only for Example not rly hard c.c

[HimuraKenshyn]

When you have put time and effort into A relic or mythic you can say stuff like this. But don't bother until then.

Actually I have been sitting on 50 mil for my final upgrade for my rag for awhile now and have a few emps no biggie. I believe instead of /wrist see what they can come up with for sure having 5 accounts I pay more than most and still enjoy the game with 3 ebisu rods and 2 lu shangs making gil to make what ever is just a matter of how bored I am and the weapons are just about how much gil you want to spend...

[Horadrim]

I'd say at 99. Afterglow shouldn't be required.

It should.

If you're not DONE with the weapon, you shouldn't be asking for an update. It sucks, because the afterglow is a ridiculous requirement, but frankly if you don't have it then you're not finished with the weapon.

Now whatever this plan they are working on is, it should ping off of any lv. 99... but if they do a damage boost you should have to have Afterglow first.

[alexander45]

Actually I have been sitting on 50 mil for my final upgrade for my rag for awhile now and have a few emps no biggie. I believe instead of /wrist see what they can come up with for sure having 5 accounts I pay more than most and still enjoy the game with 3 ebisu rods and 2 lu shangs making gil to make what ever is just a matter of how bored I am and the weapons are just about how much gil you want to spend...

You just pushed the button man i have 5 account i bot fishing lol excuse me for just point the fact ...

[Kojo]

It should.

If you're not DONE with the weapon, you shouldn't be asking for an update. It sucks, because the afterglow is a ridiculous requirement, but frankly if you don't have it then you're not finished with the weapon.

Now whatever this plan they are working on is, it should ping off of any lv. 99... but if they do a damage boost you should have to have Afterglow first.

Then Afterglow should benefit the person spending the time and money on it.

[HimuraKenshyn]

You just pushed man i have 5 account i bot fishing lol excuse me for just point the fact ...

What ever you like to believe is up to you. It's pretty easy for me to make a Relic in a couple of months farming dynamis fishing is just my passion lol.

[Zumi]

I have 2 relics and 4 empyreans not a lot compared to some people but I did my share of them.

What it seems like with this expansion is SE has changed their design philosophy. As seen in this topic
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31250-To-all-adventurers-and-pioneers!?p=409591#post409591


Level Design of Seekers of Adoulin
For those players who have reached level 99, the main focus of growth is equipment. We envision a play cycle where players take on content with their current gear in order to collect equipment with better stats, and then take on more difficult content to procure even better equipment.

We are currently working to make it so there is a common gauge for equipment and content (let's call it content levels for the time being), and to create index data that will allow those who are implementing equipment and content to have a more objective understanding of the equipment stats and monster strength. Ultimately I would like to be able to release information indicating the content level to all of you adventurers. While this is still in a phase where work needs to be done, I'm getting the feeling that things are coming together bit by bit.

They are going with a vertical gear progression model similar to the majority of other MMOs out there. I know the previous r/m/e took a lot of effort to get. Now with their new model they are getting replaced.

SE has never replaced relic weapons before they always added alternatives like mythics or empyreans. Which make sense a lot of people seem to be upset over it.

Seems like they want us to go with their new gear progression model, if you don't like it you can always unsub I suppose.

Personally I don't like that all my effort seems to have gone to waste since they never done anything like it but if I find people to still play the game with, this gives me something to work toward.

The game just went form a bunch of dual boxing / solo farming dynamis/abyessea to get the best weapons in the game to something that takes a large group effort to get.

[Unctgtg]

Camate just make them on top damage wise and make them even more powerful. Plain and simple. Just unlocking the WSs is completely stupid. Making someone spent 120-450mil on a weapon to unlock a weapon skill is crazy. So what you are saying is get weapon upgrade it to 99 and then don't use it.

[detlef]

Then Afterglow should benefit the person spending the time and money on it.Agreed. I know of 3 people who have afterglow on their weapons. The whole concept was stupid from the start and having it is its own reward.

99.9% of RME owners will never afterglow their weapons because it's just a gimmick which was added needlessly.

[alexander45]

Camate just make them on top damage wise and make them even more powerful. Plain and simple. Just unlocking the WSs is completely stupid. Making someone spent 120-450mil on a weapon to unlock a weapon skill is crazy. So what you are saying is get weapon upgrade it to 99 and then don't use it.
just think about mytic lol already unlocking ws before doing a mytic there no point in matsui idea!
and ps i love your picture dude !

[HimuraKenshyn]

The game just went form a bunch of dual boxing / solo farming dynamis/abyessea to get the best weapons in the game to something that takes a large group effort to get.

Oh you mean the end game has gone back to it's roots with still the ability now to earn a nice weapons and gear for your trouble. Back in the day when our dynamis shell was 64 peeps and our leaders robbed peeps blind of currency I remember those days well. But heck the rest of us got to lot for our relics >.>...

[Shinzen]

god forbid they do something smart like oh i dno … make a new path for trials that diverge before that Afterglow shit and let us up the DMG on our current weapon! NOOOOO let's do something f$%#$ retarded and add access to the weapon skills on other weapons! f!@#% brilliant SE go and f@#$ in an offwardly direction! .... if you make this shit useless 4 months after i just finished getting it 99 you can do without my 36$ a month ... this is the last straw on the camels back

[Unctgtg]

just think about mytic lol already unlocking ws before doing a mytic there no point in matsui idea!
and ps i love your picture dude !

Exactly.. I am about to start my postings again.

[BlackMack]

So much QQ tears flowing here, it's so delicious.

Honestly, I feel for the development team here. They're trapped between a rock and a whirling whirlpool here. You have this set of ultimate weapons which are supposedly the most powerful weapons in the game. Yet, in order to progress this game, they need to create more powerful enemies, which require more powerful weapons above that mark.

Seriously, just raising the damage on the REMC weapons is only a band-aid solution. What happens when new content and new enemies that require more powerful weapons are released? Just raise it again?

Did we forget that these relics at 75 used to have lower damage than their 99 counter-parts? Or am I just imagining things here, and my 99s always had this much damage at 75.........

The real devastation is the fact they released weapons of this magnitude without properly considering what it would do to this game. What they can do is either nerf these new weapons, and bring them back down to what FFXI is used to.. OR boost the "ultimate" weapons of the game to be slightly better than these new weapons.

In regards to making more and more challenging content: You can make challenging content without making monsters require 300 DMG weapons to win. Insane HP and Defense doesn't make content difficult if that's all there is to it (Unless there's a time limit, of course...). There's an easy way to include strategy in the slaying of more powerful monsters, without having to make 300 damage weapons... but that's not the direction this is going, so we're back to square one.

[Mindi]

this is the most stupid idea one can have to R/E/M weapons......... we want to use the weapons we spend time/gil to get and not just a weaponskill (which for most relics sucks, and mythic have them anyways).

I bet the reason we cannot enhance E/R/M any further with magian rials is because of their stupid afterglow idea... (which was a stupid idea from the beginning, and only a trophy)

find a way to raise the base dmg/stats on 99 relics, before you waste time finding a way how we can use those WS's

[Phogg]

Seems my decision to quit and not purchase the expansion based on being banned from these forums for no reason other then discontent worked out better then expected, while my confidence in the Dev team was lacking before, now its pretty obvious they don't play the game (Matsui was lvl 40 last time I heard) and have no idea what they are doing. Money well saved.

My Mandau would be livid at the idea of being stored away and some other weapon using its skills. In fact, the last time I talked to it, all it wanted to do was kill things with me, now Matsui wants me to cheat on my trusty mandau with and onion dagger. For shame, SE.

[Unctgtg]

I say once you hit level 99 (not afterglow) you are rewarded with the upgraded the new higher base damage one.

[Neojuggs]

Mr. Matsui,

Please don't kill the game I love. My ultimatum is simple: proportion REM to what makes it compete with these new items and maybe, when I'm at my next duty station, I will continue to at least maintain my account. If not, SE will never receive a penny from me ever again thanks to this idea. I hope wisdom finds you and causes you to make sound decisions from here on. 감사합니다.

Neo

[Jada]

I think the idea that is being thrown around is not a very well thought out. Example: Death Penalty has QD V at 99 on it. What do they plan on doing with that? Just make the weapon stronger

[Unctgtg]

What they now have a problem with is when they made the upgrades before so few had relics/mythics to compete with emp. Now A LOT more have the relics/some mythics/ and a whole lot of emp players are pissed. Would it be safe to say about 50% of the player base has a R/M/E (most of the percentage being E). That is whole hell of a lot of pissed off players.

[Zumi]

You know how our initial reaction was we are all pissed that they outclassed our relics by like 100 damage. But after thinking about it for awhile does it even make sense in a MMO to keep upgrading the same weapon you used since 2004 to be the best almost 10 years later?

I don't think any other mmo does that.

[xiozen]

Thanks for the response.... I will not be renewing my subscription until this is fixed. If it is not fixed. This will be my first cancellation of FFXI in over 10 years... I've never stopped playing. I'll just filter that money to another source.

Thanks for the reply all the same.

[Unctgtg]

I agree to a degree with your statement Zumi but they made it more doable for those that just recently upgraded them and obtained them. I might reserve my thoughts until something more concrete comes out than just ideas they are throwing around.

[Oakrest]

I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer

I feel like I'm about to jump off a very tall building, if that makes you feel any better.

I've cancelled my subscription until you guys get this figured out. Don't expect me to restart my FFXIV service either.

Good luck, looking forward to better news.


PS- I've had ulcer's my entire life, it isn't fun - and I wouldn't poke at them lightly. If you really are giving yourself an ulcer you need to see a doctor ASAP.

[Zumi]

I agree to a degree with your statement Zumi but they made it more doable for those that just recently upgraded them and obtained them. I might reserve my thoughts until something more concrete comes out than just ideas they are throwing around.

I got my Excalibur back when dynamis was hard took 64 people. The rest I got recently after dynamis nerf. I use to be mad at how relics were getting replaced but now after some time. I am kind of indifferent to it.

Now if I can't find more people to do new stuff with I won't be keeping my sub, but ill hold out a month or two to reserve judgement.

I noticed some people not even logging on anymore after the news the past couple days. Pretty much no reason to play the game if I don't know anyone to play it with.

[detlef]

You know how our initial reaction was we are all pissed that they outclassed our relics by like 100 damage. But after thinking about it for awhile does it even make sense in a MMO to keep upgrading the same weapon you used since 2004 to be the best almost 10 years later?

I don't think any other mmo does that.Other MMOs also don't let you play every class on a single character. FFXI has many unique traits that you can't find anywhere else.

Also it's not quite the same because for all of FFXI's history, there has been no indication that these long term projects of weapons would be outclassed, especially to this degree. If RME weapons took less effort to get to 99 or if FFXI had a history of introducing better weapons with each expansion, there wouldn't be nearly the outcry.

[Kojo]

You know how our initial reaction was we are all pissed that they outclassed our relics by like 100 damage. But after thinking about it for awhile does it even make sense in a MMO to keep upgrading the same weapon you used since 2004 to be the best almost 10 years later?

I don't think any other mmo does that.

Think of it as something unique.

[xiozen]

I say once you hit level 99 (not afterglow) you are rewarded with the upgraded the new higher base damage one.

There ya go, problem solved.

As mentioned here... simple solution: Upgrade your R/M/E weapon to 99 and it automatically receives a direct damage boost consistent with the most recent end game weapons released via the expansion. A simple yet effective solution.

[Gaspode]

I'm gonna write a lot of words about FFXI! I've never posted here before and usually ignore community stuff but aw heck I'm gonna post my idea anyway.

I understand the need for new gear, and pushing stuff to skyrocketed damage tiers sounds like it could be super exciting, but my concern is that it basically will completely kill all old content. People will see no reason at all to do Relic, Mythic, or Empyrean quests, instead just opting for this delve system.

The reason I personally love REM weapons are for the quest, and the journey. Unlike a lot of people, I don't feel that new weapons will take those times away. Working toward that kind of gear was a great time, and I always encourage people in my LS to try it and go for it, even though some think it's too daunting.

So why not make it so there's a brand new weapon tier, but include REMs in that quest, that journey, to make them?

If you want to go with monstrous weapons, use these ones as a base, and let players trade in their REMs to power it up even more. I use a Mandau on my thief, so how about giving me the ability to 'merge', so to speak, my mandau into this new dagger to make it even MORE powerful. Heck give it a new design to, some sort of frankenstein mandau-new dagger hybrid.

Then let me do it with a Vajra and a Twashtar as well, if I wanted to. Merge all 3 into this new dagger to create the almighty-ultra-mega-boss-top-dagger, that has the aftermath of all 3 weapons in one. It would be ridiculously powerful, but hell that's what you get if you 99 a Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean dagger and combine them into one.

You can do these as new models even, and do them in stages so you can use them partway through.
Dagger+Relic
Dagger+Mythic
Dagger+Empyrean
Dagger+Relic/Mythic
Dagger+Relic/Empyrean
Dagger+Empyrean/Mythic
Dagger+Relic/Empyrean/Mythic

Add Delve/Skirmish/Reive/whatever trials you want, and this drives players into your new content and new gear, but also keeps players doing your OLD content. Keeping players in your old content prevents what happens to a lot of other MMOs, where it just becomes a weird ghost town in the old events.

This gets players into a whole new tier of weapons and gear, doesn't poison the players that made REM, opens up potential for trials and people doing content in the new expansion AS WELL AS the old expansion, and creates a brand new 'ultimate' tier of weapons that long-term players can get fired up about and work toward.

[Demon6324236]

Here, this is how you fix this problem and do what you propose still, make a quest to unlock the Relic and Emp WSs just like you can with Mythic, use the Weapons from Abyssea, you have to use the Relic WS 100 times using that weapon, which would mean 1400 WSs at very least. For the Emp WSs, make it 1000 uses of the Emp WS to use it with any weapon. Then upgrade the actual R/M/E weapons, simply take the new strongest weapons, add 10 to their DMG, and done, leave the rest on the weapon the same unless its broken. On Relics like Gung and such with terrible effects or Aftermaths, update them, make them not suck, make Gung have additional effect of defense down but with -25% so Angon is not an issue. Make Mythic abilities better, their main feature is augmenting the job, while the AM is amazing and does stand out, from a stand point these weapons specifically augment the job using them, and they should do it better. Emps, just give +30 of the mod stat and make the Occasionally Deals Double Damage into Triple Damage, the same way that Mythics went to Twice/Thrice. That should fix all of the weapons, allow other weapons to use the WSs, and make everyone happy including the devs. Players only want the fix on the weapons, but if you feel you must do something similar to your idea, here you are, but your idea for a full fix is terrible, we hate it, we have said we hate it, so please, do not do it...

[Shinzen]

There ya go, problem solved.

As mentioned here... simple solution: Upgrade your R/M/E weapon to 99 and it automatically receives a direct damage boost consistent with the most recent end game weapons released via the expansion. A simple yet effective solution.


nah cuz that would make sense and well we know how far SE and "sense" are nowhere close to each other

[nitsuj]

Just in case anyone reads this:

I've spent 7 years trying to unlock my Mythic Weapon. I will finally accomplish that goal this month. If you try and tell me that your RIDICULOUS mythic requirements, which you never once budged on (30,000 alex from 50,000 ok ok, you budged once... barely) and 7 years of my life will equate to a weapon skill that isn't even that great... that will be it for me.

Seriously though, think hard about this. Add quests to upgrade the mythics some more. Trials. Nirvana +1, +2, +3 +4 I don't care. But 7 years of my life for a WS may finally be where I draw the line.

[Registeel]

This is absolutely rubbish... I've never felt more insulted and spat upon by a game's developers.

I spent over a year (with the aid of friends), without making it my sole project, taking my Almace bit by bit to its current level of 95. Now you are proposing, the idea that once I make the leap to 99, I should simply put it in my storage forever, since I'd have the ws "unlocked" for these ridiculous new "normal" weapons. I love Chant Du Cygne; it's my favorite weaponskill in the game, but Almace is also my favorite weapon. In my mind, the two are never to be separated. I have much toil, sweat, and memories attached to the blade, so your implication that I can simply set it aside is unacceptable.

Furthermore, if this plan came to fruition, what actual point would there be in taking an empyrean to 99, which requires all the abyssea NM items, 1500 heavy metal plates, and then 60 Riftdross/cinder... when a 99 WoE can potentially be slapped together in such a shorter, less hardship-filled time? By your proposal, all this is about unlocking the WS, and WoE share the same WS their Empyrean counterpart has. So what difference would there be between them?!?

I am deeply offended by this proposal. I implore the voice of the players' outcries over this travesty be heard.

[SNK]

Why would we wait to get it fixed when we can stop it before that happens? He already said one of the ideas they have and everyone pretty much hates it. What better way to get feedback than this? Waiting until that idea is released live is stupid because then its harder to go back and fix it.

Because none of you have no idea how the REMs will stack up compared to these new weapons. They'll either suck which is that does happen I'll be right with you in calling out bullshit or they'll be once again top teir weapons which I myself have invested a ton of time into making so this effects me as much as everyone else.

Point doesn't change tho. Some of you need to calm the fuck down and see what the end result is before you guys take the torches and pitchforks to SE's door. lol

[Lotto]

How can the devs be so out of touch with their own game, this is surreal.

[Oakrest]

I would be happy if they did the following:

1.) Remove the afterglow trial completely. Anyone finished or partially finished this "99+1" stage is reimbursed the Marrows they spent at a special in-game box they can access at any time (I.e. like the chest by the Abyssea NM's in Port Jeuno).

2.) Realize that R/M/E/C need more than just a WS 'unlock', they need a base damage boost. WS unlock is not a bad idea for an added perk, but our final (read:comparative to the new weapons revealed) R/M/E/C need a big boost to base damage. One that surpasses these other weapons.

3.) A new set of trials are opened for R/M/E/C. These should not be a 'grind' such as 1000 kill-shot WS on monster [type]. It could contain some SoA content, or maybe even older content such as "Kill Genbu 10 times" (for one stage). I don't mind a challenge, but it shouldn't be mindless work, keep in mind those of us who've obtained R/M/E/C have in many cases committed months of our lives to the task (Coin weapons perhaps being a bit of an exception, especially after the bazaar update to WoE coins). So a bit of Yin and Yang is needed to find a balance. If the trials are made interesting enough, they could be fun and bring meaning to both the reward and add more gameplay.


Anything short of that I would not be happy with, and will probably keep my account inactive (per my previous post in this thread).

[Atigeve]

This has me disappointed, and about to unsubscribe. Way to go! This answer is completely unacceptable.

[Eijii]

I wonder what Tanaka san would do in this situation :/ but yeah....... lots of my friends are saying they're just ging stop paying for this game and move on if this really happens.... SE fix this or you are going to keep loosing people..

[Unctgtg]

Guys remember this is all just ideas, but sure did get us up in fire and posting :) Maybe they will listen like before.

[Altimaomega]

Because none of you have no idea how the REMs will stack up compared to these new weapons. They'll either suck which is that does happen I'll be right with you in calling out bullshit or they'll be once again top teir weapons which I myself have invested a ton of time into making so this effects me as much as everyone else.

Point doesn't change tho. Some of you need to calm the fuck down and see what the end result is before you guys take the torches and pitchforks to SE's door. lol


People like you are why we cant have nice things. Looking on the bright side of things if they decide to continue to demean and spit on the accomplishments of R/E/M holders, People like u and this Matsui guy will be the only ones playing this game cause every other player will have quit. This is the kind of decision that does not only effect FFXI but every one of SE's game they put out. I for one WILL NEVER buy a Square enix game again, because of the lack of foresight they put into there content.

[Zumi]

They might change stuff. Remember when there was so much outrage at the 99 trail. Use to be afterglow was the only 99 weapons and it took 2000 marrows, so they added 99 weapons with no afterglow and reduced the marrows for afterglow to 250.

[Crimson_Slasher]

The only reasonable solution is to take all weapons in the game (prior to delve) and double their damage. The people asking for relics/empyrean/mythics/coins to be updated, i feel you, and agree with you. But those being raised alone is insufficient and only serves as an ego boost and to further distance yourselves from the have-nots. meanwhile if all weapons were doubled in damage, it would close gaps, and still give you the superior edge, without making all non-emp/relic/mythic/coin weapons (think of all the elemental trial weapons, and OAT weapons) so horribly inferior. Other than that, halve the damage of new weapons added, however people get power-hungry in all games so... that isnt all that popular.

[pretre]

I think this is a easy fix. double the dmg of relic emp an mythic, or give me back the silly amount of time it took to make these items.I R PREETREEE!!!!!. P.S please can I pay 150 mill for metatron torment lol

[CrystalWeapon]

Why not just make a system where you can take the drops from Delve and use them to augment r/e/m up to the same level as these new weapons?

Use the same idea of augmenting the armor multiple times and apply that to the weapons. That way the r/e/m holders won't be as pissed, and at the same time you encourage people to do the new content.

To solve the issues of different trial r/e/m weapons (lv 95/99/afterglow) add a npc that can remove the augments. That way you can remove the augments to upgrade if you are going for a higher teir with magians. Have it so that the lv 95 weapon is slightly weaker than the new weapons in dmg, but the lv 99 is stronger.

Just a quick suggestion that seems like a simple solution to me.

[Registeel]

Some of you need to calm the fuck down and see what the end result is before you guys take the torches and pitchforks to SE's door. lol
Maybe I am reacting too emotionally, but I've invested enough time, effort, and love into ventures with my friends making these weapons, both for myself and for them, that I feel I have justification (that we all do) to be upset over the current proposal. It's less taking a pitchfork and more choosing not to swallow the pills they want us to take.

Maybe our voices will not be heard or change anything (I hope to God they listen), but we very well should have the chance to express our discontent. Many have invested so much (more than just in game money) to make these creations, and have such deep memories in line with them. I would blame no man or woman for feeling emotions swell over this matter.

[Eanae]

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Just give us a straight damage buff...

[Areayea]

you know... here's a weird thought... make all the relics/empys equippable by the jobs that they need to (like RAG RUN, and GUN COR, ect.) then... have a "legendary" weapon... where you get the base weapon from the top floor of delve (or w/e the final boss is called); you have to have an empy 99, a relic 99, and a mythic 99 for that particular job based "legendary" weapon; and only one job gets it, so like have a rag/(run mythic)/Caladbog combine, or a Claustrum/Nirvana/Hvergelmer become an Ultimate smn weapon... or a Kenkonken/sphrai/Vereth combine; either way you get my point, but make the damage on those things be insage like 500 dmg, and a good delay... and if ANy of the 99s have afterglow then have the whole weapon get afterglow (that's to make the afterglows not sad that they worked so hard)... if you did that I'm sure ppl would HATE the trial but be happy once they had the weapon... (oh and ya stick to the original after you get the wses you can keep it after like 99 or something); that sounds complicated but would be awesome

[Areayea]

another thing tho, at this point I think that they need to DROP ALL content and focus on this task... it seems like this is a dealbreaker for them X.X; I'll always play cuz I <3 this game, but look at these, look at the jp forums everyone is acting like it's the APCALYPSE (and no not the scythe); MATSUIIIIIII U CAN DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D, just fix the R/E/M situation; simply by buffing the s**t out of them, taking my advice (previous thread), ORRRRRRRRRRRRR just gimp all of the Delve weapons (especailly in the dat mods, if you did that and everyone sees the new data files as they are really low I think they won't be as mad)... lol <3 u guys and Know you can do it

[Horadrim]

Think of it as something unique.

I think of it as something that's a bit asinine, but that's me.

Constantly adjusting RMEs is just going to dig them deeper and deeper into a hole. It is one they've been digging for a while now and frankly not letting you guys keep your 5+ year old weapons as the best isn't going to be what pushes the dirt down to bury this game.

Oh well though.

I'll probably be sticking around to see what happens with RUN/GEO and the future content, but I've pretty much written off FFXI and probably FFXIV. If I'm going to get shafted and not listened to, I'd rather do it on a game I'm not paying for -- this game has never offered much to people like me (people who have had to leave and come back a few times, and thus can't maintain crazy huge collections of LS mates/don't want to have to have a job interview every time they want to try out a new event) and I've never made too much of a fuss over it. I get that the designers of theses games have to focus on the "hardcore" number crunching elitist types; I've made due where I could and where I couldn't I made peace.

You guys going ape shit every two seconds over the same issue like it wasn't inevitable isn't really going to help anything.

You want new gear and new things to work on, yet you hate that they are making things stronger than old content rewards. Now with Delve, you have gear which will take effort and time to maximize -- and what does that do? I'll tell you: It puts them in a position where they'll have not only Weapons they can't upgrade without everyone losing their shit, but armor they change replace because "omfg, I just spend 8 months capping out my Delve gear, wtf?!" Then what?

This game is getting backed into a corner and that's kind of the end of it. The funny thing is -- I don't think its anyone's fault. You guys are completely justified in being upset with the way they designed Relics and Mythics (I have no respect for empyreans) -- but at the same time, this game sort of evolved in a rather natural way a long the themes it set out for itself at the very beginning. The Relic and Mythic systems were pretty much exactly what you would have expected from a Final Fantasy MMO.

You can't force something that, by all accounts, shouldn't be alive anymore to keep going. World of Warcraft is almost 3 years younger than FFXI and is already winding down pretty heavy with Blizzard talking about their next MMO. FFXI's at the end of its leash and honestly the only reason they made Seekers of Adoulin is because they needed something to help fund FFXIV -- Frankly, if you guys actually get them to turn around on this just add 100-200 damage or whatever nonsensical numbers you're demanding, that's just going to solidify that this game won't live much longer than it takes for FFXIV to get released.

I think I'd rather enjoy fond memories of what this game used to be than continue "enjoying" the advancements. It's watching your first car get scrapped piece by piece and them upgrading RME is like you cheering because they let you keep the steering wheel.

[Unctgtg]

If they made regular weapons that ridiculous then why not make REMs even more ridiculous?... like a Rag with 315 dmg and such >.>

I am ok with this, but make Apoc with like 353 damage, OAT 2-8 hits, Relic Proc 50% and WS increase 250%. Then I will be happy.

[Areayea]

I am ok with this, but make Apoc with like 353 damage, OAT 2-8 hits, Relic Proc 50% and WS increase 250%. Then I will be happy.

XD you have resorted to terrorist negotiations

[Monchat]

Dev's priority list:

1- evolith
2- play as monster
3- chocobo farm
.
.
.
999- upgrade R/E/M (appparently they won't even do that)

They are stuck in the following dilemma:

- If they upgrade REM to surpass the new god tier weapons, people will not do the content, because the new weapons are the carrot to keep people interested in adoulin.

- if they dont upgrade them, half the hardcores players will quit.

Hey Mr.Matsui, most of the relic WS are not used because most are terrible. Most DDs use the Merit Weaponskills. SOme empyrean WS are good, but most are really bad... People make mythic for the aftermath (most mythics are garbage w/o AM3, most mythic weaponskills are bad), people make relic for the insane base DMG (almost every relic ws is bad).

[anjitwo]

also just want to add that thinking of a solution that is more insulting than that of the problem is bad business

[ReplicaX]

The devs put themselves in this position. They created Ultimate weapons, their unique stats/wses and their requirements. This is something other MMOs don't have period and one of the things that makes FFXI different. At this point they should carry on the tradition and give yet another method of obtaining a top tier weapon in SOA and continue the model of keeping R/E/M Top Tier. While providing AH and NM rare/ex weapon that are upto par.

I would like to see the devs pay tribute to R/Ms.
Requirement: 99 or 99 Afterglow R/M

Final one on one battle against the previous NPC R/M holder.

Reward: 99 Final weapon. For the Elite, still have an option to afterglow it.
- Base dmg upgrade
- Stat upgrade
- Hidden Effect upgrade
- Aftermath upgrade

Empy tribute:
Requirement: 99 or 99 Afterglow Empy

Special rare drop off of an upgraded Shinryu battle. Brew restricted.

Reward: 99 Final weapon. For the Elite, still have an option to afterglow it.
- Base dmg upgrade
- Stat upgrade
- Hidden Effect upgrade
- Aftermath upgrade

Any Future Top Tier weapons added/adjusted: R/E/M will be adjusted via maintenance update to stay on par.

Sorry SE my Amano hasn't talked to me since lvl75: I still require training.

[detlef]

If you were doing Salvage, Dynamis, or Voidwatch to make money sucks to be you. Don't worry there are lots of elementals in sky to farm.

[Morrie]

I too have been a player, on and off, for about 8-9 years now. I never posted before today and only made an account to voice my frustration an disappointment over the recent decisions and implementations regarding the new weapons introduced.

One point I want to make, that some have voiced, is that not everyone is in a large or well-equipped enough Linkshell to be able to do Delve, let alone do Legion, so making Delve gear acquisition a component to enhancing r/e/m still alienates a large portion of the playerbase and not a very good suggestion.

Not only that, not everyone has 99 r/e/m or is capable of acquiring the materials needed to ugprade r/e/m past 90; again due to not being part of larger LSs. Only allowing those with the proper support and funding to reach 99 to upgrade further alienates players even if it wasn't to include Delve weapons/materials for the damage buff.

Did anyone really come out and say, “I never do enough damage, I should be doing 2-3times as much?” Does anyone else remember the days when breaking 1000dmg on HNM wasn't super common even in well-buffed situations? Now when I hit less than 2k it's caused I missed ½ of the hits or had -attributes/atk down. I never even saw the need for adding new weapons since r/e/m already requires a lot of time and effort. Adding any new path of HQ specialty weapons would diminish everything everyone had already worked for, and further separate those who only operate in groups of 3-6 (like me) vs those in LSs that are capable of supporting 30+ members.

R/E/M can be acquired with a group of 2-3 dedicated players, some even solo. Some of whom acquire those weapons and only take them to 90 because that's all that they can support with their group and/or playtime.

I don't know what solution should be implemented. I'd be in favor of buffing all 85-99 r/e/m up, reducing the base dmg on all new AH/Delve weapons, or just removing the new weapons entirely. This game already had balance issues and this just exacerbates the issue to ridiculous proportions of ineptitude on the developers' part.

I too will be canceling both of my accounts if this issue isn't addressed soon. I'll probably also be taking 3 other people away totaling another 6 accounts. My friend said GW2 was fun, might give that a go; and they don't charge a monthly fee either.

[Kikouken]

As someone who spent a significant amount of their early FFXI on RDM, a once-godly job that is now pretty useless, I'm no stranger to the fact that this is an MMO and things will change. That being said, this idea makes me nervous about the future of FFXI in a way that the server merges and level cap increases never came near.

Making R/E/Ms obsolete? I can't say I approve, but there are ways to make it happen that won't outrage current R/E/M holders. Even if it's just trading a 99 relic to an NPC for a 50% head start on whatever the new top-tier weapon will be, it's some sort of consolation beyond the completely dismissive attitude we're seeing right now.

This needs to be fixed, fast, or frustrated players will quit en masse without giving two scheisses for whatever grand vision Matsui and his team think they have. I'll be one of them.

[Sargent]

To think, Square Enix actually made a record loss last year, and now they've just annoyed the majority of the player base in their flagship MMO.

Good move, most players won't even think about playing XIV after this decision.

I feel sorry for the community reps. They're the one's having to shift through this thread filled (rightfully) with anger and hatred towards this decision. Most of the people posting aren't going to care about the repercussions of what they say, if this goes forward, you've lost half of your player base.

[Kojo]

The devs put themselves in this position. They created Ultimate weapons, their unique stats/wses and their requirements. This is something other MMOs don't have period and one of the things that makes FFXI different. At this point they should carry on the tradition and give yet another method of obtaining a top tier weapon in SOA and continue the model of keeping R/E/M Top Tier. While providing AH and NM rare/ex weapon that are upto par.

I would like to see the devs pay tribute to R/Ms.
Requirement: 99 or 99 Afterglow R/M

Final one on one battle against the previous NPC R/M holder.

Reward: 99 Final weapon. For the Elite, still have an option to afterglow it.
- Base dmg upgrade
- Stat upgrade
- Hidden Effect upgrade
- Aftermath upgrade

Empy tribute:
Requirement: 99 or 99 Afterglow Empy

Special rare drop off of an upgraded Shinryu battle. Brew restricted.

Reward: 99 Final weapon. For the Elite, still have an option to afterglow it.
- Base dmg upgrade
- Stat upgrade
- Hidden Effect upgrade
- Aftermath upgrade

Any Future Top Tier weapons added/adjusted: R/E/M will be adjusted via maintenance update to stay on par.

Sorry SE my Amano hasn't talked to me since lvl75: I still require training.

I like the idea.

[Smush]

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui
Matsui here.

I have some follow-up information regarding how we plan to build on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes ("coin") weapons (I'll refer to them as RMEC below. Apologies that I left out coin weapons in my last post).

There are many who feel upset and uneasy regarding the recently introduced weapons, as well as the information that has been conveyed until now. So while this information is still not finalized, I would like to give a bit more insight into our plans.

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form (this includes non-afterglow weapons, and shield/instruments will not be included in this). However, we plan on adding some conditions that fall in line with the jobs that can equip the respective RMEC weapons.

As we have yet to finish all the testing as to whether or not we can do this, please let me again reiterate that this is not yet finalized.

Due to the nature of this topic, we definitely need to proceed carefully, so despite the fact that I'm only mentioning this at the idea level, I understand that the level of disappointment will be quite great if I say that it is too difficult to accomplish this after all, and I was thinking it would be best to let you all know once it took a bit more shape.

You're probably thinking "if that’s the case, then don’t announce anything," but because I thought it wouldn't be good to not let you know anything until plans were finalized I decided to make this post. (I've been under so much stress I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer >< But I know I shouldn't be complaining.)

While the memories you made and the stats on your equipment cannot always be proportionate, we are trying our best to see if we can keep all of the effort spent on earning these weapons intact.

We plan to do all that we can, but please give us some time for this.

He also follows up on a player's comment, which I've summarized below:


Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

I have the following questions/comments regarding the unlocking of these special weapon skills, and I'm sure a lot of others are thinking the same:

- Relics: There are gaps in a lot of the weapon skills for these weapons. For example, there is no special advantage to Knights of Round or Scourge, while on the other hand unlocking Catastrophe or Coronach would lead to the destruction of balance.

- Mythic: These weapon skills can already be unlocked through the quest "Unlocking a Myth."

- Empyrean/Coin: How will these weapon skills be differentiated for the two weapons?
I was thinking this question would pop up.

I apologize, but unfortunately I am unable to answer anything at this point in time. One of the reasons I felt I should not have mentioned anything during a stage where various things have not been finalized yet, despite prefacing it that this is non-finalized information, was following up on individual specific questions based on supposition.

Being silent because it's not possible to answer right now would remove the whole purpose of why I posted, but on the other hand, continuing to entertain suppositions would cause expectations to grow even more wild. As a result of this, things that I didn't promise would turn into promises, and I would like to avoid making it seem like we are breaking promises.

With that said, the answer for the moment for many things will be "Sorry, but I cannot answer that right now."

Once the content has been fleshed out and confirmed I will be sure to let you all know the details, but please give me some time.:

If your planning to unlock the ws for other weapons and not upgrade the R/M/E it will be a really horrible idea.

For Relic weapons a lot of the ws are not good at all so right there most of them have wasted time and a lot of gil.

For Mythic weapons you can already do the weapon skill so its a COMPLETE waste of a lot of time and a lot of gil this one takes the most work.

For Emps i would feel like i should have just not did my masa and did a WoE weapon which is way easier to 99 way less gil and time looking for items spamming vw etc, so big waste of time there.

I do like the idea of having access to the weapon skill if you have it level 99 but you should also upgrade the weapon then it would not be a waste, it would be a reason to have all 3 weapons if you include the aftermath for all of the weapon skills as well as upgrade the weapons base damage and maybe the stats on them as well.

Then Depending on the situation you choose which weapon to use not the ws.

For example: The mob has high evasion and you need accuracy pop on the Relic GK for the 40 acc and if you do so happen to have worked for a 99 masa tachi fudo and get ODD and if you did enough work to get all 3 99 you get a big reward by being able to save 300 tp tachi rana for att twice/trice.

I wouldn't mind that but unless you upgrade the base weapon then most of everyone who has them would have just wasted there time gil and effort.

So please SE if you only do one thing let it be upgrade the base damage and maybe the stats as well on the weapons.

Then we can talk about unlocking weapon skills with the aftermath because without the aftermath included Mythic weapon skill can already be done for emps all you need is a WoE weapon which is easy and a lot of the relic ws are not good.

[FrankReynolds]

Dev's priority list:

1- evolith
2- play as monster
3- chocobo farm
.
.
.
999- upgrade R/E/M (appparently they won't even do that)

They are stuck in the following dilemma:

- If they upgrade REM to surpass the new god tier weapons, people will not do the content, because the new weapons are the carrot to keep people interested in adoulin.

- if they dont upgrade them, half the hardcores players will quit.

Third option: Make a quest that combines the stats of the 99 weapons and allows you to choose which one to upgrade.

IE. trading "Joey the NPC" a 99 relic and a delve weapon gives you the option to combine the base damage of the delve weapon and the stats / attributes of the relic onto one weapon that will have access to the relic weapon skill.

For bonus points they could allow you to "Upgrade" either one, so that people who like the way delve weapons look could swap to that while people who like their relics could keep that look.

This would keep both delve and relics relevant while simultaneously allowing them to implement their (incredibly stupid) idea of allowing relic / empy weapon skills to be used on other weapons.

[Oakrest]

Constantly adjusting RMEs is just going to dig them deeper and deeper into a hole.

This is a misconception I've seen in this thread far too many times.

I have 10 level 99 jobs that I play regularly, but only my PLD, WAR, DRK, and COR have R/E that I've obtained. I don't plan on getting any more R/M/E for any of my jobs, I have enough work ahead getting them all to 99. That means the other 6 jobs I play regularily that don't get a R/M/E are subject to the next best options: end game content r/x weapon, or an AH weapon. I'm ok with that, it makes that content fun for those jobs, and I don't care if those 6 jobs don't have the best of the best.

The time spent on R/M/E warrants they be the best of the best, forever. It was their design. You can't build a castle and not be aware of the upkeep, this is the trade-off of this type of design.

Oakozric (Almace not shown):
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bahamut/Oakozric

[Kitkat]

This has got to be the worst possible joke ever. Even as an "Idea" this is horrible, so bad even that it kills braincells to read. Devs need to understand they are the ones that coded themselves into this corner and they need to damn well code themselves back out of it. As already brought up Mythic WS can already be unlocked meaning there is absolutely no incentive to care seeing as the Aftermath, and to lesser extent the job ability enhancments, are the biggest reasons to make one. Relic WS have some decent damage output, but it is far and in between meaning the main priority to making a relic is the hidden 2~3x damage, biggest att boost on weapon (for 1handers) and some of the aftermath effects. Emp's WS are fairly grand, but one of the biggest perks to using them has been the aftermath effect of ODD.

Unless you plan to transfer all of this to people who painstakingly jumped through hurrdles to finish their weapons you're traversing down an incredibly wrong path here. It would be easier to continue with Trials to bring them up to spec or entirely rethink the direction you are taking this expansion. Obviously, tacking on the appropriate +damage increase would be most logical course of action as opposed to tossing the weapons to the wayside. This could easily be done similar to how you are handling Augments for newer gear as is - IE collection routes where collection of points/items/etc. is turned in to enhance the weapons base damage. You did it once already, why are you refusing to do so again? It adds time the players have to put into the weapons prolonging longevity of the game for them. Additionally you can do just as you did with final stages of the relic path by turning in the weapons + items to get a new version of the weapon with increased base damage.

I'm sorry, but this "Idea" is entirely unacceptable and is absolutely not what the player base wants for a progression method of game play. You're effectively negating a lot of time spent on weapons and also giving us a lot of very vague possibility of this even being possible. You shouldn't be wasting time on trying to figure out how to make your idea work and just stick with a tested method already and increase base damage up to equal standing.

[Monchat]

Third option: Make a quest that combines the stats of the 99 weapons and allows you to choose which one to upgrade.

IE. trading "Joey the NPC" a 99 relic and a delve weapon gives you the option to combine the base damage of the delve weapon and the stats / attributes of the relic onto one weapon that will have access to the relic weapon skill.

For bonus points they could allow you to "Upgrade" either one, so that people who like the way delve weapons look could swap to that while people who like their relics could keep that look.

This would keep both delve and relics relevant while simultaneously allowing them to implement their (incredibly stupid) idea of allowing relic / empy weapon skills to be used on other weapons.

which would be the same as replacing the new god tier weapon by a trial to upgrade REM further (gather X amount of material from delve, say 50 ailixir+2). But then the casual would be pissed off, because that would mean having a REM is needed for new content.

[Smokesalot]

I'll just add to the chorus.

Outshining gear is nothing new to an MMO. However, to take a huge runny dump on items people have taken, by the directors admission, hard work and dedication to obtain, is simply obscene. One week, don't throw away your R/M/E, the next week, render them impotent. If the best the dev team can come up with to sate the bloodlust is the ability to use the R/M(ohwait...)/E WS on other weapons, then the people who pay the turds wages need to have a serious look at their employee and act accordingly. (That'd be us, by the way). Matsui would have been better off saying nothing at all, at least that would have been expected. The insult that this 'brainwave' directs at the playerbase is far, FAR worse.

The situation you find yourselves in is pretty unique. I don't hold out any hope for salvaging this fuck up barring a server rollback.

And inb4 butthurt. I don't have a 99 R/M/E weapon. I have two shields, probably the least affected by this mess. For now, at least.

[pretre]

why not make these new weps another super weapon and bump the emp relic an myth to same level, I don't see how they could even see these new weps as possible, if they don't change then the only event on game is delve, they might aswell delete aby dyna salvage an every other event cos no reason to do any of em. jst level 1-99 delve an quit

[Smokesalot]

As an aside, Camate, I genuinely feel for you. I believe you're an FFXI player? Typing up that translation must have been gut-wrenching. I wonder how long your cursor hovered over the create thread button. I'd bet my house that your eyes were closed when you finally clicked it.

[FrankReynolds]

which would be the same as replacing the new god tier weapon by a trial to upgrade REM further (gather X amount of material from delve, say 50 ailixir+2). But then the casual would be pissed off, because that would mean having a REM is needed for new content.

Nah, the delve weapons would still be great weapons on their own even without the upgrade. Casuals could just go after those.

[Gaspee]

This is terribly disappointing....

This is the first time I've actually felt like walking away from the game. Perhaps they should shift some manpower from XIV to help out the game that is paying for it? Just an idea.

[ManaKing]

Wow i get home from work and there are 13 pages on something that got posted this morning. I only read the first page and already realize that a lot of people need to get jobs or something because this is hilarious how ANGRAR you guys are.

The guy is blatantly on a schedule and doesn't have unlimited resources and pays us the courtesy to say, we realize that this upsets you and we see it as a problem and I won't tell you what we are doing because I don't know yet (transparency), but i will bite the bullet and tell you where we are (honesty) so that things don't spiral out of control.

And you bunch of babies cry at him.

[Zohno]

Wow i get home from work and there are 13 pages on something that got posted this morning. I only read the first page and already realize that a lot of people need to get jobs or something because this is hilarious how ANGRAR you guys are.

The guy is blatantly on a schedule and doesn't have unlimited resources and pays us the courtesy to say, we realize that this upsets you and we see it as a problem and I won't tell you what we are doing because I don't know yet (transparency), but i will bite the bullet and tell you where we are (honesty) so that things don't spiral out of control.

And you bunch of babies cry at him.

i think the idea he has in mind is pretty clear. maybe you should reread the first page instead of offending everyone?

[Ica]

Wow i get home from work and there are 13 pages on something that got posted this morning. I only read the first page and already realize that a lot of people need to get jobs or something because this is hilarious how ANGRAR you guys are.

The guy is blatantly on a schedule and doesn't have unlimited resources and pays us the courtesy to say, we realize that this upsets you and we see it as a problem and I won't tell you what we are doing because I don't know yet (transparency), but i will bite the bullet and tell you where we are (honesty) so that things don't spiral out of control.

And you bunch of babies cry at him.

I don't know about you, but when someone proposes an idea to me that I think is shit, I tell them it's stupid.

The one idea they've put forth so far... is stupid.

[Karbuncle]

I'd just like to say, IDR where i posted it.

I F**KING CALLED IT.

Still... The 40% DMG boost and aftermath is the only thing keeping some Relic WS's relevant. Or Mythics for that matter... I just... IDK Wth they're going to do. If they keep Aftermath and DMG boost in tact, yay, but Half the Relic/Emp/Mythic WS's suck anyway, and ... Mythics can already be unlocked... I mean, they must be planning to let you use them with Aftermath/BonusDMG... which is why its taking so long to do.


Wow i get home from work and there are 13 pages on something that got posted this morning. I only read the first page and already realize that a lot of people need to get jobs or something because this is hilarious how ANGRAR you guys are.

First off, please don't pull the "RL card", even people who agree with you will no longer agree with you if you use that argument. Also, People work varying hours of the day, I personally work fro 7~whenever i get off (I work at a Daycare now :D)... But the point remains, having a job has nothing to do with these peoples posts or anger, and its unsensible for you to result to such low means of insults King.

On that note, I really like that he's being open with us, but I'm hoping he told us the plans because he wanted our feedback on it, cause this is unacceptable. I mean, You also have to consider if Delve is the >end all< content, how are they going to top it in the future? 200 DMG Daggers? How ridiculous will it get... You guys may be on a "WOW DMG" high atm, but eventually they're either going to turn the game into "BREWS FOR EVERYONE", or they're going to go right back to sidegrades. Thats why i hate this move, its dangerous and it can only go so far before it gets ridiculous and boring.

[Kaeoni]

I'm pleased to know Square-Enix realizes that an adjustment needs to take place, and while I don't agree with the course of action they spoke of above, I praise them for thinking outside the box and thinking of something new.

I love it when games take me on fun and interesting adventures, when developers can WOW me, these games are works of art, I truly believe that. You have put a lot of blood sweat and tears into this game and I respect the dedication you all put forth day in and day out. I also believe that if you have a vision, and you want to take people on that journey, It can be a miraculous interactive experience only experienced through gaming and they should go through with it.

However,

First and foremost, If you can't release any real information on the troubles at hand, and choose to tip toe around the issue... Do not release any official statement like the one you just did. You were better off saying nothing. It's highly unprofessional. It creates drama, panic, loss of stock.
With the information given thus far, I can't say i'm anything more than unimpressed, and not only by the tact that was given in relaying this brief statement.

You've given me enough slack, I've fought the good fight, now then, Lets see what you got, do you have what it takes to reel me back in?
I'm up for a change, i'm impressed with the gear you've released this past update, So I'll bite.
What exactly did you have in mind Square-Enix?

[Vitus]

Let's take a step back and think for a second...

If SE makes these weapons and offers them to you, only you, nobody else will have them but you, will you still complain? of course not because you want to hit hard, the harder the better. The bigger the number the more fun, right? That's the reason you make RME in the first place. Now, why is it a problem when SE offers these weapons to everyone else too?

The root problem to this is the steep requirement to aquire RME. People spend too much time, even years to work on these weapons. It is understandable for them to rage when all their efforts were in vain. I feel sorry for those who just completed their RME. However, the idea of some specials weapons stay on top year after year, expansion after expansion, from the start to then end of game's life is silly.

[Cahlum]

This idea is the most stupid, idiotic half brained scheme I could have ever imagined. "I know guys, lets make it so all their hard work on a 99 REM goes to waste by turning them into KIs and relegating them to mannequin usage for eternity." No, just no.

It is not rocket science how to fix this.

Either lower the base damage of all the new delve weapons
or
Increase REM base dmg at 99 to slightly less than these Delve weapons. They don't need to be higher as we do have aftermath etc for our hard work but the point still stands.

Why bother trying to change the enmity system if you just going to let people spam 12 k tachi shoha and resolution. It is insane! No one will be able to hold hate against that, not to mention SMN and its crappy avatars are going to be left in the dust even more with their avatars 40 base dmg 400 + delay attacks!

Anything short of an immediate update with either one of these two changes come Monday after Golden Week will lose you my subscription.

[noirin]

Yes yes, i built Guttler because i just HAD to have Onslaught.
Snap out of it SE, if i was just aiming for a weapon to do high damage i could perform just as well using Ruinator with any axe.

[pretre]

Let's take a step back and think for a second...

If SE makes these weapons and offers them to you, only you, nobody else will have them but you, will you still complain? of course not because you want to hit hard, the harder the better. The bigger the number the more fun, right? That's the reason you make RME in the first place. Now, why is it a problem when SE offers these weapons to everyone else too?

The root problem to this is the steep requirement to aquire RME. People spend too much time, even years to work on these weapons. It is understandable for them to rage when all their efforts were in vain. I feel sorry for those who just completed their RME. However, the idea of some specials weapons stay on top year after year, expansion after expansion, from the start to then end of game's life is silly.


I disagree there called super weapons an take silly time to make because there supposed to be the top weapons

[Neojuggs]

@ Vitus

To you maybe but by your arguement, I'm going to assume you have no 99 ERM weapon (I could be wrong). I'm not pulling the elitist card, I'm just saying unless you went through the crap to getting one, I don't see how you can legitimately argue your point. That's like me saying it's stupid for parents to gawk about the typical achievements their children make...I'm single and don't understand it so I just don't say anything. Regardless, for me, the weapon is more than just the ws or the damage. I know I'm not the only one that equips their 99 ERM weapon just to stare at it lol. I usually think about the good events that lead to its creation and the sense of virtual achievement lol. There is more to all this than just epeen. Anyway, not saying your perspective is wrong, I just don't think you fully understand from other peoples' positions as to why we are taking such offense to this.

[Smokesalot]

Now, why is it a problem when SE offers these weapons to everyone else too?

Last I checked, anyone with an account can get R/M/E weapons...

[Camate]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

[Cahlum]

I think that is entirely the point; why release these new super delve weapons when you have no idea what you want to do with the old ones!

[Kojo]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

We're all counting on you, good luck!

Also, thanks for patching things through!

[Smokesalot]

they are still in the early discussion phase

Is this thread evidence enough that they should throw this idea out?

[Samosa]

I agree with everyone on this, this is not the best option or even a good option to keep the RME's current. To get these weapons you generally have to have at least a small group willing to help, so this is not only wasting one individuals time, but also the time of his/her friends who are helping.
Also how will this work for Mythic weapons? you can already unlock the WS easily enough.

[Ica]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

Thank you Camate!

One of the reasons I'm being so vocal about this issue (I can't speak for everyone of course) is because it isn't finalized. I don't want this idea to get anywhere near the finalization stage. ><;

[Vivik]

no where near finalized at this point

Good to know. You guys might start getting my money again when they are.

[pretre]

Thank you Camate!

One of the reasons I'm being so vocal about this issue (I can't speak for everyone of course) is because it isn't finalized. I don't want this idea to get anywhere near the finalization stage. ><;

exactly run in the dev room now scream no an tell em to stop being stupid please

[Sargent]

I dunno why you'd even consider the idea, let alone why you'd tell us you're considering the idea.

Making weapons that were always supposed to be top-tier useless and thus taking months to make useless in comparison to weapons that take hours (or seconds via the AH) to get is a good way to kill the game your developing. Fair enough if we're talking level 85 (unfinished) top tier weapons, but we're referring to Lv.99/Afterglow weapons here.

[detlef]

Camate, you're all right.

As the community rep, I hope you are able to adequately convey the sentiment of the masses. And I hope that Matsui delivers.

[ManaKing]

i think the idea he has in mind is pretty clear. maybe you should reread the first page instead of offending everyone?

maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions and assumptions and actually have some self respect.

[Zumi]

Feeling sorry for the community team that has to delete all them profanity laden I am quitting posts.

[Seha]

I don't like Matsui's response.

The idea is bad and more importantly the way things are worded seem to show that a concrete plan is not even there. This, above everything else is not acceptable from your part. You can't just throw things at us and think about consequences later.

[BorkBorkBork]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

They should have had a plan in place before they even thought about releasing those weapons. I think we as a player base is capable of telling the difference between what is a real plan and what is a "opps we screwed up.... well we better say something" response.

[SNK]

If this does go down in a bad way It'll end up killing the game the same way Sony killed SWG by changing the entire class system without even mentioning to the playerbase that they were doing it.

I never saw an MMO die so fast like that one.

[Zumi]

To a point almost overnight with the patch a lot of people became disillusioned with the game. Plenty of people were in progress on long term weapon projects in FFXI, r/m/e at various stages. Now all that motivation to play is now gone. Even for myself I was farming gil to buy marrows for Rag99 now that isn't going to happen.

[Kojo]

After Camate's last post, I'm kinda wondering...just what are they discussing? The best, easiest course of action is to just plan to increase R/M/E damage. Are they discussing what to raise them to? Or how to do it?

[Raksha]

SE: Let them eat cake.

[Kojo]

One other question; if Mandau was too broken for DNC to get, why does DNC get a 108 DMG dagger? Why were we told relics would be too imbalanced for post-ToAU jobs, but they all get these new, completely broken weapons?

[Zumi]

One other question; if Mandau was too broken for DNC to get, why does DNC get a 108 DMG dagger? Why were we told relics would be too imbalanced for post-ToAU jobs, but they all get these new, completely broken weapons?

It was all a part of the Tanaka, balance era. Nobody knows except for him.

[Alhanelem]

This is a joke, right? It's May 1st, not April 1st. Unless AM and ODD/ODT travels with the Weaponskill, this is offensive. More so to people who only recently finished.
I wouldn't find it "offensive" at all. While it's far from the only thing they should do, unlocking the relic and empy WS is certainly a nice perk, such that you get SOMETHING for your effort regardless of whether or not you use the weapon 100% of the time.

Like I said, the weapons themselves should also be updated, but I don't think, independently of that fact, that doing so is a bad idea.

It doesn't matter what weapon you use... even if you're an LOLmeleeSMN and you have claustrum/nirvana/hrvelgmir - the new staves have close to 50% more base damage.

[Kojo]

It was all a part of the Tanaka, balance era. Nobody knows except for him.

They've reiterated it since he left.

[BorkBorkBork]

To a point almost overnight with the patch a lot of people became disillusioned with the game. Plenty of people were in progress on long term weapon projects in FFXI, r/m/e at various stages. Now all that motivation to play is now gone. Even for myself I was farming gil to buy marrows for Rag99 now that isn't going to happen.

I know what you mean. I have a couple of 90 emphs and a Rag that I'm 45/70 on bronze with and I'm like well if anything I'll finish it to say I farmed a relic. I've seen SE piss off the player base quite a few times, been playing since NA release, but I've never seen them piss off so many so fast.

[Altimaomega]

Always knew id go down with the servers. Pretty shocking that it looks like it may happen right after a NEW expansion.

[Areayea]

OH MAH GOD, WHY KIDS WHY MUST YOU ALL BE ANGRY, CALM DOWN HAVE A DRINK, SIT IN A CHAIR, GO PET SOME INVISIBLE CATS (I hate cats.)... My point is, if you're going to voice your opinion please do it in a respectful manner, I seen people telling people to calm down, and they got sandblasted with Insults, /anger messages. This is worse than havoc. If Matsui HIMSELF started posting eradically in the forums, and all of you just continued with this same /ragequit behavior nothing would get accomplished, put yourselves in their shoes; If you just made a mistake at a workplace, what would you do? lets say you told a client/customer/manger/w/e something INCREDIBLY offensive (i'm not specifying although I could, I just want people to listen to my point, and not have it removed) you'd be worried/doing whatever you could to remedy the situation, could you be fired? yes, but we've all been there, so let's try to HELP them, not HURT them, he's even inadvertently ASKING for our help by throwing his ideas out there... as I have stated before whatever happens I'm still going to play/sub, so that's getting that bag out of the way BE NICE WITH YOUR RESPONSES TO EACHOTHER AND DEVS.

Second point: Whatever they do, it is going to make almost all of you angry anyway, the great thing about this game is that devs usually don't care; I"M SOOO GLAD MATSUI ADMITS HE IS STRESSED, however, again we as a community need to learn to support the resolution that they come to, I'm positive now that he is trying to figure something out, because of the out pour of Q.Qing and his various statements that he has given, thanks to you and the community reps for remedying this situation, just please decide on something where it still is worthwhile to make a R/E/M (I don't think I'll count a C yet... seeing as how basically they're a fake empy... or a Fempy ww).

Third point:Those CRAZY damage weapons were created for a reason... now what that reason is, I am not sure anyone has tested out, perhaps it is because the last chambers have wayyyy too much hp, so for devs perhaps just give the 99s just a dps upgrade... it prolly can be a little more than the crafted weapons, but a bit less than the delve wepaons (yes we have seen what they all look like, thanks to .dat miners).


Anyway PLEASE BE MORE RESPECTFUL, I'm sure that they wont take us seriously if we continually don't take eachother.

[Areayea]

oh ya forgot to mention I'm going to finish my mythics/relics/empys anyway I don't really care about this "issue" I just do them for fun anyway... or did we forget this isn't a job

[Zohno]

maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions and assumptions and actually have some self respect.
then use words that don't make people jump to conclusions

[Areayea]

I think they are doing to the game what the US govt is doing to America. Sabotage it so that they can move on to bigger and better things....they got rush of cash flow they wanted from the expansion...now they done lol

you know, I *might* have thought about that, but then I realized, FFXIV isn't up yet, all their other games crashed, this is kind of their last line of defense... and thats why they are actually communicating some form of solution to us, if that was the case they'd just release it as is until the playerbase just choked itself on the vine. so I'm sure it was just a mistake since they have no other *good* form of revenue...

[Areayea]

sorry forgot to say, they've already seraded this golden egg goose, and magically kept it alive (THANK GOD I couldn't live without this), now they accidentally whacked it with a hammer, so they just need to figure how to keep it alive again

[FrankReynolds]

oh ya forgot to mention I'm going to finish my mythics/relics/empys anyway I don't really care about this "issue" I just do them for fun anyway... or did we forget this isn't a job

I forgot it wasn't a job back when it started taking 40 hours a week to keep up with my LS events.


EDIT: Oh and for those that wanna fight

http://www.skype.com/en/

Call / IM each other and have at it. No one else knows / cares what you are arguing about.

[Hawklaser]

Just having the weapons skills of R/E becoming more common usage doesn't really address the issue with the R/M/E weapons compared to the new Delve weapons.

I don't think any R/M/E holders are against weapon progression, the problem here lies with the fact that there are new weapons that can be put on the AH that outclasses them by a good margin. What you have to look at with the Relic and Mythic weapons, is they were designed to be the best, and they took years to make, and even now are a significant time investment. Plus there are people like me that don't currently have a R/M/E, but with having played off and on since 2002 they have always been something I wanted to get, and I don't like how they are being handled currently. More because I understand the large amount of time and gil put into acquiring one, and it really makes it hard to justify working towards one when I could just go farm gil and wait til one of new AH-able weapons show up at a price I think is worthwhile and have a better weapon.

One thing about FFXI's design I have always liked, is if you could get the end game weapons built they stayed relevant, which also gave those who wanted one a constant goal to work towards. And if they keep this unique trait going, the R/M/E's don't always have to be the absolute best, but they should stay in the very top tier. It helps keep diversity in the game. I don't know about the rest of you, but I would rather have end-end game events be R/M/E/? instead of X only.

[Sekhmet]

I for one (and maybe many others, I haven't read this whole thread, and pardon me If what I'm saying has been said before) am NOT in support of this unlocking relic ws's idea. I'm sorry, if i just wanted the ws, I'd use the aby relic ws weapons. I worked for the better part of a year to get my apocalypse, and to see it lowered to the position of a glorified nyzul isle weapon is disappointing to say the least. No offense to you guys, I understand you're working hard trying to come up with things to keep players invested, but I think you jumped the shark with these way overpowered delve weapons. make more powerful weapons, sure, but not fully 100 dmg over the current best weapon! Us RMEC owners made them for a reason.

Sure, you can say that since they made them easier to get that almost everyone has one now, and that these new weapons are for the elite few who have the manpower and resources to get them. but even in that case, your setting those of us with less connections up for frustration by being denied to do content because we're 'gimped'. You know it will happen. It happened with VW and Legion. "no RME, no invite" I've seen it tons of times! I'm saying you are setting yourselves up to lose a LOT of subscribers with these delve weapons. Sure, I know you want people to keep playing, and giving better rewards is a good thing, but dear god, don't obsolete EVERYTHING from the past 10 years of expansions and updates. I'd personally prefer you lower the power of these delve weapons by about 25%, and make plans so we can upgrade our RMEC weapons accordingly. Here's an idea: how about making it possible to use the airlixers and plasma to set upgrade paths for the RMECs? In the same kind of vein as the new armor. path 1: acc boosts path 2: dmg boosts, path 3: some kind of combination of acc and att, or enhance the aftermath effects? let the people who have RMEC choose their own enhancements for their weapon, more customization is a good thing.

I hope I didn't come off too harshly, but seriously, this needs to be addressed or I foresee a lot of people quiting the game.

[ManaKing]

Why did this thread de-digivolve to us insulting each other instead of complaining for a common goal?

I'd rather side with the dev than listen to a bunch of screaming from people that can't read a politically worded statement without rioting.

Camate had to come out and tell people to calm down and read because they didn't the first time. And Matsui had to post this originally because people were jumping to wild conclusions about the future of the game they aren't developing and have no insight into the development of.

Forums are designed as a way to share ideas and leave commentary. People on the internet have no manners and can't behave like rational adults. They think it's ok to scream, threaten, and fling poo. Wow people are bored enough to rage against the people trying to give them something to relieve them of their boredom. Pretty ungrateful if you ask me.

They started to give us actual transparency in the last couple of years on the development of this game and thus far we have rewarded them as a whole with discontent. It's a very poor showing to punish someone for giving you what you asked for instead of asking them for something different because you don't think it would make the game better.

I'm bored too, but this expansion (regardless of it's dubious nature as just a capital raising scheme) is pretty darn fun and was a nice surprise. I like this release a lot more than original release, CoP, and Aht Urhgan. I didn't play for release of WotG or Aby and came back after FFXIV failed miserably. Why can't people just play the game?

Instead of people just PLAYING THE GAME and having fun, they are sewing discontent and getting entirely too political about this. I laugh at this communities' over active sense of entitlement. They threaten that they will stop paying for their accounts when we all know the reason they are saying that is because they want attention. If they were really going somewhere else, they would have left already and either left an overly dramatic 'I quit' post that no one would care about or wouldn't have said anything at all and be gone.

If you're posting on this forum, you're still drinking the coolaid and still stuck on the crack that this dealer is selling. So stop acting like you're not and have enough self respect to share some with the rest of the people posting as well. You want to create a clear message for the devs? Make a good enough post that everyone 'likes' it. The first poster that posted could have easily said, 'Matsui, I think that is a terrible idea and it would make me less happy to play the game possibly to the point that I would stop playing it.' Then everyone could have liked it and not needed to add a bunch of 1 liners about quitting and being unreasonable and ungrateful.

How impact-ful do you think a post with 500+ likes looks to the devs?

We are a much better community than most MMOs. That's why we are all here. FFXI is a much better game than most MMOs or at least we think it is or, once again, we wouldn't be here. Almost all of us are FF fanboys and fangirls and we love this series and we love this particular part of the series because it was more than just a stand alone title. The devs are our friends and we should treat them with more respect than we do. They want to give us a game that continually progresses so that we don't get bored and we want a game the rewards dedication & hard work, but is also fun to play.

It pretty clear how much we all love our RMEs. They require hard work, dedication, and they are fun to use when we get them completed. The other communities are saying the same thing as us. They will get the message. Don't you think it would be a better use of our time trying to support a team that is trying to make us a better game then going to war with them so that they squander their limited resources trying to fight us off?

---

My suggestion would be to use Delve as a system, much like the magian trials, to upgrade a wide variety of gear and weapons including RME, Artifact, and Salvage gear. It ill behooves you to replace those standards with something that does not add more diversity and variety to the game. If you want to make new weapons, at least go from the perspective of adding options instead of making another weapon that is generically the best.

The new Dagger for DNC is a godsend because they had no ability to progress past their previous point because dagger were poorly suited for their strengths and accentuated their weaknesses. For swords you could attach the Campaign WS, Uriel Blade, onto whatever monstrosity that Delve will put out as a Prestige Weapon so that RDM, BLU, and PLD could have a MAB WS of prominence instead of just another physical WS. Looking for variety in this new system instead of just blatantly better and the same would be a very positive step to winning over your communities' confidence, something your predecessor never accomplished and failed miserably at in FFXIV. Building on the game's roots is essential for the continued longevity of the game.

I do like how a lot of the new gear looks and you will get my applause for that, (Xux hat and pants are awesome). Most of the gear is always geared for DPS, but with a large amount of reaction from the community for how tough some of the new content is, wouldn't it make sense to release gear that increases the player's personal longevity? Would Haste with PDT be so much to ask for?

We ask for everything you can give us and more, but that's only because we are having fun and enjoying ourselves.

Thank you very much.

[FenrirCandlejack]

Manaking, in all seriousness, listen to yourself. You forget that Matsui, with just two updates less than three months apart, completely raped the entire playerbase and gave us no reason presently to bother with making RMEC weapons. It's not that the new Delve weapons are "a little bit better", it's that they have almost a full 100+ base damage over the RMEC weapons that has people enraged and threatening to quit the game.

For example, I was thinking about taking a Masamune I had recently brought up to the lv.85 stage up to 90 and beyond, but after seeing the Delve weapons I'm questioning myself as to whether I should continue to sink the time and effort of going down that road or just saying f*** it, give up now and /toss it, maybe even go so far as to quit a game that's brought me entertainment for close to seven years. That's how badly the Delve weapons have affected the playerbase.

This is coming from someone who was there in the Dunes at least a year and a half (that I can remember) before level sync, which came before FoV books and SMN burn pts, before GoV and Abyssea key-burn leveling, who saw WoTG go from being a "oh, here's a campaign battle for you to enjoy" expansion to having actual content to it. Even when Empyrean weapons came out and blew Relics out of the water, and the enraged playerbase made SE add Magian trials to keep the Relics relevant and give them a reason to keep making them.

Earlier in the week there was a gleam of hope that Matsui would keep our hard-earned RMEs relevant in the post-Delve FFXI, but as of this thread and what Camate has translated for us, that hope I once saw has now gone up like the smoke I usually exhale from puffing a cigar. If his only answer to keeping the RMEs relevant is to make them the new "mythic base weapon" and we can do a quest to keep the WS from them, then he clearly has no idea of what the playerbase wants.
We want to KEEP what we've worked so hard to build for RME weapons. We don't use them just for the WS, but for the stats! For the return in damage and stats based off the time, gil and effort invested into the weapon itself. For Matsui to misunderstand the playerbase so grossly shows ignorance of the customers as well as complete incompetence on his part, and he should either freely step down of his own accord or someone higher up in SE's chain of command should fire him, preferably sooner rather than later since the rest of SE's flagship titles aren't doing so well.

[Keyln]

Did we forget that these relics at 75 used to have lower damage than their 99 counter-parts? Or am I just imagining things here, and my 99s always had this much damage at 75.........

The real devastation is the fact they released weapons of this magnitude without properly considering what it would do to this game. What they can do is either nerf these new weapons, and bring them back down to what FFXI is used to.. OR boost the "ultimate" weapons of the game to be slightly better than these new weapons.

In regards to making more and more challenging content: You can make challenging content without making monsters require 300 DMG weapons to win. Insane HP and Defense doesn't make content difficult if that's all there is to it (Unless there's a time limit, of course...). There's an easy way to include strategy in the slaying of more powerful monsters, without having to make 300 damage weapons... but that's not the direction this is going, so we're back to square one.

The problem is that there's only so far that this can go. At some point, the monsters have to have more hit points, more defense, hit harder, etc., otherwise, you end up with content that's nothing more than sidegrades, which describes XI pre-Abyssea.

When Abyssea started, the game started to be progressive again, with stronger gear, stronger players, and consequently stronger enemies. Seekers of Adoulin is just a step above this. If this is going to be a progressive, old gear will, eventually have to be obsolete, including RMECs. It's an age old problem that just about all MMO's face. Purple and orange gear that raiders farmed for months on end get replaced by blues and greens when a new expansion comes out.

Most of the player base acting like spoiled brats doesn't help much, and simply raising the damage on the RMECs only kicks the can down the road a little.

If you have any good ideas, I'm sure the dev team is all ears, because this problem is as old as MMO's themselves.

[FenrirCandlejack]

The problem is that there's only so far that this can go. At some point, the monsters have to have more hit points, more defense, hit harder, etc., otherwise, you end up with content that's nothing more than sidegrades, which describes XI pre-Abyssea.

When Abyssea started, the game started to be progressive again, with stronger gear, stronger players, and consequently stronger enemies. Seekers of Adoulin is just a step above this. If this is going to be a progressive, old gear will, eventually have to be obsolete, including RMECs. It's an age old problem that just about all MMO's face. Purple and orange gear that raiders farmed for months on end get replaced by blues and greens when a new expansion comes out.

Most of the player base acting like spoiled brats doesn't help much, and simply raising the damage on the RMECs only kicks the can down the road a little.

If you have any good ideas, I'm sure the dev team is all ears, because this problem is as old as MMO's themselves.

I can see the Relic weapons being obsolete with as long as they've been around, the Mythics too, potentially. But the Empyreans haven't even been out more than three years. That being said, your suggestion is good up to a point, and that point is claiming emps should be worthless before year 4 of their content lifecycle. If anything, Matsui's team should look into increasing the damage on the Empies if nothing else. Yet knowing Matsui and his team, they won't. Instead, they'll go on completely alienating their paying customers and you'll probably see FFXI dead before the end of June.

[Hoofy]

If SE wants to drop 250mil+ in my dbox for the two years of blood, sweat and tears of making my relic back when it was actually an accomplishment, along with every other relic holders dbox (for theirs), I'm sure we all just might consider the possibility of being outdone by new content. Giving SE the benefit of the doubt, I will say they had no idea when this game started it would still be going on as strong as it is today. But that does not change the fact RME were intended to be the best of the best, and they should stay that way.

[Vold]

That's the reason you make RME in the first place. Now, why is it a problem when SE offers these weapons to everyone else too?

The root problem to this is the steep requirement to aquire RME. People spend too much time, even years to work on these weapons. It is understandable for them to rage when all their efforts were in vain. I feel sorry for those who just completed their RME. However, the idea of some specials weapons stay on top year after year, expansion after expansion, from the start to then end of game's life is silly.

It's a problem because I spent 200 million gil on my 99 mandau and a lot of time getting it to boot. And I spent that on mandau, and never really thought about mercy stroke except that I knew it was good. I just wanted mandau. Twashtar looked like crap, Vajra was out of the question, so I wanted a Mandau. Did joe blow spend time getting a mandau? No he didn't. Why should he suddenly get a superior weapon with a fraction of the effort? Thanks for showing up, here's a super weapon! Kind of like how emps went down except SE corrected those by introducing insane 95-100 requirements, but they still don't carry any real lore or quests behind them. They were fricking magian weapons.

Also, yes I expect these weapons to stay on top year after year because IT IS LORE. They are there to be the very best weapons obtained through a quest, used by legendary warriors of Vana'diels past. Yes you read right, the game has lore. Imagine that for a MMORPG.

So I have to ask, at what point in the past 10 years have we ever indicated that we might be okay with easy to obtain super weapons to replace our insane RME99 weapon requirements? I'm just wondering I would be very happy to have an answer on that question FYI just let me know soon. Is the current FFXI team all rookies to the FFXI brand? Are they even aware of the purpose of relics and mythics? The lore behind them? What it takes to get them? Do they care? Was there not a single soul there that could have said, um boss, I been working here for ten years, and those RMEs are alittle too complicated to be replacing them. The players won't like this...







I hate to say it, but I think the devs have given up on Final Fantasy. They're choosing the EQ/WoW route because it's easier on their small work force/limited PS2 MMO. That's not so bad until you replace RMEs with weapons from the local Weapons R Us store.



Also, Keyln, there is no law that states that the current status quo of weapons can't be used until the end of time. You are presuming that weapons must progress, too. That is simply not the case. FFXI alone proved this for 7 years at a 75 cap. It is a choice by a developer, nothing more. Harder hitting NMs can always be countered with correct gear progression in hit points and magic points/mana/whatever. To go beyond that is overthinking and overdoing things. Kings and Gods had high defense. No one on the older FFXI teams felt compelled to progress weapons just to defeat sky gods. You are excusing the decision at best because you forget or don't know just what made FFXI different from the EQ recipe of end game. And like I said I'm okay with moving away from SE's recipe, but not at the cost of saying goodbye to elements of the game that made FFXI what it is. I may as well play EQ or a clone if I'm to do that style of gameplay. EQ wrote the book on it. I'm better off there than in a game going through a mid life identity crisis.

BTW FFXI suffers greatly with players who just want to zerg everything and not return to the standard end game style of MMORPGS which is having a main tank around.

They made a bad decision here. Plain and simple. If they rather depend on super weapons to conquer end game and not super armor because somehow super armor would bring a disturbance to the force while super weapons won't, so be it. But players will never be able to enjoy FFXI for as long as they are so easily killed because their HP progression is shit compared to everything else. God forbid Galkas running around zilart areas of the game with 5k base HP. That would REALLY ruin the game, let me tell you.

I understand the problem here. You need to deliver new content. You've done the whole sidegrade thing to death. You don't want to make low level stuff and former 75 content even more trivial. But it's either that or more event based stuff that you've already done to death where temp items and buffs come into play. Older content being made trivial is part of MMO life. FFXI has evaded that fate but there comes a time when you run out of sidegrades for your end game activities. It's time they let us be powerful to the common EP monster folk of Vana'diel. But I don't know if I can stomach wasting 200 million gil on essentially a weapon skill that's only useful when stacked with sneak attack. That irks the hell out of me.

[Falseliberty]

the tears.... the tears everywhere! bring back tanaka! I need my NMs that are botted and cheese sandwiches back!

aww man this is awesome! I can't wait to do SA rudra storm with 100 base damage dagger fawking epic, to hell with a the haters!
But on a real note, isn't it golden week or some nonsense? people over reacting and should wait a few till they get back into the offices

[Kit_Katz]

Mr. Matsui I am sorry to inform you that the idea you have put forth is horrible. There are a great many people who will never be able to get their RMEC weapons to 99 due to prohibitive cost in addition to the already steep price tag on the base weapon. By simply allowing the weaponskill to be used by newly released weapons you are not preserving value or our hard work, you are insulting it and making the RMEC that we worked so hard for useless (especially if a player is unable to get their weapon to 99). The only acceptable, and frankly quite simple solution would be to raise the base DMG values/stat enhancements of RMEC weapons to be as good as new content.

RMEC weapons are the equivalent of "epic quests" that take months to complete, by making not only dropped weapons but crafted weapons far surpass the game's only epic quest weapons you are just spitting in players eyes. I don't have a 99RMEC, nor will I ever have one (especially now, lol), but I am competent enough to see how making them obsolete is a very undesirable choice.

[Keyln]

Also, yes I expect these weapons to stay on top year after year because IT IS LORE. They are there to be the very best weapons obtained through a quest, used by legendary warriors of Vana'diels past. Yes you read right, the game has lore. Imagine that for a MMORPG.

Lore can change. Design ideas can change. A MMORPG is all about change. Because something can't happen because it's "lore" doesn't mean it won't. (Triple Negative Score Ho!)


Also, Keyln, there is no law that states that the current status quo of weapons can't be used until the end of time. You are presuming that weapons must progress, too. That is simply not the case. FFXI alone proved this for 7 years at a 75 cap. It is a choice by a developer, nothing more. Harder hitting NMs can always be countered with correct gear progression in hit points and magic points/mana/whatever. To go beyond that is overthinking and overdoing things. Kings and Gods had high defense. No one on the older FFXI teams felt compelled to progress weapons just to defeat sky gods. You are excusing the decision at best because you forget or don't know just what made FFXI different from the EQ recipe of end game. And like I said I'm okay with moving away from SE's recipe, but not at the cost of saying goodbye to elements of the game that made FFXI what it is. I may as well play EQ or a clone if I'm to do that style of gameplay. EQ wrote the book on it. I'm better off there than in a game going through a mid life identity crisis.

Should I point out that this game is more or less an Everquest Clone with the Final Fantasy skin pasted on and the ability to change jobs added in?

Should I also point out that the Sky Gods came with the Rise of Zilart expansion, which was one of the few times in FFXI there was vertical progression? Since then, it's been sidegrades and stagnation, especially between Treasures of Aht Urghan and Abyssea. We've seen vertical progression now with more powerful things since Abyssea, and Seekers of Adoulin is a part of that.


They made a bad decision here. Plain and simple. If they rather depend on super weapons to conquer end game and not super armor because somehow super armor would bring a disturbance to the force while super weapons won't, so be it. But players will never be able to enjoy FFXI for as long as they are so easily killed because their HP progression is shit compared to everything else.[B] God forbid Galkas running around zilart areas of the game with 5k base HP. That would REALLY ruin the game, let me tell you.

It isn't just about enemies that hit harder. It's also about enemies that need have more HP and more defense. Otherwise, how would a DD be challenged? I do agree that more armor and more HP is important, but so is more damage and more attack. Good progression needs both.


I understand the problem here. You need to deliver new content. You've done the whole sidegrade thing to death. You don't want to make low level stuff and former 75 content even more trivial. But it's either that or more event based stuff that you've already done to death where temp items and buffs come into play. Older content being made trivial is part of MMO life. FFXI has evaded that fate but there comes a time when you run out of sidegrades for your end game activities. It's time they let us be powerful to the common EP monster folk of Vana'diel. But I don't know if I can stomach wasting 200 million gil on essentially a weapon skill that's only useful when stacked with sneak attack. That irks the hell out of me.

And that's something that just about every MMO player on every living MMO that's expanded has said. I've heard these complaints before, about how people who spent months going through the same raid over and over again to get at that time the best armor and weapons in the game, only to be replaced by more common gear with better stats. While I can understand the sentiment, but it's a fact of almost all MMO's, and the sooner you learn to accept it, the better.


I can see the Relic weapons being obsolete with as long as they've been around, the Mythics too, potentially. But the Empyreans haven't even been out more than three years. That being said, your suggestion is good up to a point, and that point is claiming emps should be worthless before year 4 of their content lifecycle. If anything, Matsui's team should look into increasing the damage on the Empies if nothing else. Yet knowing Matsui and his team, they won't. Instead, they'll go on completely alienating their paying customers and you'll probably see FFXI dead before the end of June.

First, just upping the damage of the RMEC weapons isn't going to help things. All that does is kick the can down the road, and we'll be hearing the same thing a year or two down the line when they come up with even stronger weapons.

Second, people have been predicting the death of FFXI for YEARS for a variety of reasons. I fail to see what makes this so different.

[Landsoul]

A new WS would not make up for the twice as much damage compared to these new weapons. At best they might even the odds, but R/E/M lack the high weapon damage. If the dev team doesn't come with anything good of "fixing" R/E/M 99 I would unsubsribe permanently.

[Fermion]

This is what I think of the whole situation. I believe Matsui had no choice.

First and foremost, Matsui is a businessman. His primary function is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. That being said, once the "pick-up" or casual paradigm switched to the R/E/M only mentality, those weapons were doomed. 99 R/E/M's are a tiny percentage of the total population. It may seem otherwise, but that's just do to continuous emotional posts (a lot by the same small group of people). Also, a simple understanding of economics and drop rates will make it glaringly obvious that 99 R/E/M's will be the minority for years and years to come, without astounding drop rate changes. There seems to be only so much to go around, even if every dynamis/VW/ADL was camped to the second 24/7. (Actually, I think I might do the math on that one, out of curiosity. It would be interesting to compare a perfect hypothetical economy to the real one.)

Look at it this way, the developers are privy to much more data about the playerbase than we are. Once this R/E/M mentality started to get out of hand, I'm sure that SE noticed (probably due to subs. dropping at a curious rate). The thing is, when casuals quit due to being shut out of content they're paying for, they usually just leave (and this is a big one, they probably tend to not come back), unnoticed to us. But en masse, SE's red flags start going off. Think about it from the casual's perspective. Without a R/E/M they are excluded from pretty much everything but Abyssea. But the golden days of Abyssea are in the past. (And be honest with yourself, you know you did a lot of your Abyssea trials by giving out +2s to LS members or randoms). So unless they leveled bst and farmed dynamis for months (/snore), they were stuck at that level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the R/E/M holders did this to themselves. If you want to make a R/E/M only LS, that's great. Knock yourself out. But the problem is when that mentality crossed over to pick-up events. Matsui had to take action, his hands were tied. It's like a rich kid constantly showing off his money at a bar or something. Don't be surprised when you get robbed. You can't hoard your accomplishments (R/E/M only!) over the general public (casuals in this case) and not expect action to be taken.

And by the way, I respect Matsui for taking such bold action. Every person calling him an idiot or whatever has no idea how smart and ruthless you have to be to make it to his level in the business world. Call me a white knight or whatever you like, that doesn't make anything I've said any less true. Looking at this strictly as a business decision, I think he played the hand he was dealt (by us) about as well as he could.

TL;DR
Keep your elitist mentality (nothing wrong with being elitist btw) in your LS and out of public chat channels.

Finally, let me pose a question to all the Xbox 360 R/E/M holders. How would you feel if you suddenly started encountering "PC only" shouts (you know what I'm really talking about)? You can get a part time job and pay for a nice new PC in way less hours than it takes to build a 99 R/E/M. But be honest, how would you really feel about being excluded like that?

P.S. Please excuse the generous use of parentheses. I'm trying to speak in general terms, but at the same time speak to the most likely group of players reading this thread (R/E/M holders).

[Umichi]

AlL i have to say is everyone should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are behaving and handling about this aparant issues....

[Umichi]

This is what I think of the whole situation. I believe Matsui had no choice.

First and foremost, Matsui is a businessman. His primary function is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. That being said, once the "pick-up" or casual paradigm switched to the R/E/M only mentality, those weapons were doomed. 99 R/E/M's are a tiny percentage of the total population. It may seem otherwise, but that's just do to continuous emotional posts (a lot by the same small group of people). Also, a simple understanding of economics and drop rates will make it glaringly obvious that 99 R/E/M's will be the minority for years and years to come, without astounding drop rate changes. There seems to be only so much to go around, even if every dynamis/VW/ADL was camped to the second 24/7. (Actually, I think I might do the math on that one, out of curiosity. It would be interesting to compare a perfect hypothetical economy to the real one.)

Look at it this way, the developers are privy to much more data about the playerbase than we are. Once this R/E/M mentality started to get out of hand, I'm sure that SE noticed (probably due to subs. dropping at a curious rate). The thing is, when casuals quit due to being shut out of content they're paying for, they usually just leave (and this is a big one, they probably tend to not come back), unnoticed to us. But en masse, SE's red flags start going off. Think about it from the casual's perspective. Without a R/E/M they are excluded from pretty much everything but Abyssea. But the golden days of Abyssea are in the past. (And be honest with yourself, you know you did a lot of your Abyssea trials by giving out +2s to LS members or randoms). So unless they leveled bst and farmed dynamis for months (/snore), they were stuck at that level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the R/E/M holders did this to themselves. If you want to make a R/E/M only LS, that's great. Knock yourself out. But the problem is when that mentality crossed over to pick-up events. Matsui had to take action, his hands were tied. It's like a rich kid constantly showing off his money at a bar or something. Don't be surprised when you get robbed. You can't hoard your accomplishments (R/E/M only!) over the general public (casuals in this case) and not expect action to be taken.

And by the way, I respect Matsui for taking such bold action. Every person calling him an idiot or whatever has no idea how smart and ruthless you have to be to make it to his level in the business world. Call me a white knight or whatever you like, that doesn't make anything I've said any less true. Looking at this strictly as a business decision, I think he played the hand he was dealt (by us) about as well as he could.

TL;DR
Keep your elitist mentality (nothing wrong with being elitist btw) in your LS and out of public chat channels.

Finally, let me pose a question to all the Xbox 360 R/E/M holders. How would you feel if you suddenly started encountering "PC only" shouts (you know what I'm really talking about)? You can get a part time job and pay for a nice new PC in way less hours than it takes to build a 99 R/E/M. But be honest, how would you really feel about being excluded like that?

P.S. Please excuse the generous use of parentheses. I'm trying to speak in general terms, but at the same time speak to the most likely group of players reading this thread (R/E/M holders).

I am a returning player who left for this very same reason... i kept getting pigeonholed into needed certain items to even perform my job or to come as something else because everyone over analyzed everything SE gave to them as info and had this mentality that your either this job or GTFO because only numbers matter....

[ThaiChi]

I don't know about how everyone else actually feels, although most of everyone has already vocalized their disdain for the plans. But what was really upsetting to me was the prospect of our weapons with all the work we put in being worth null. I understand that it's not even close to being finalized, but why was it ever an option to invalidate a years worth of work (in my case) or the numerous relics some other people have. I'm still planning on 99ing at least one of my Empyreans in the optimism that they'll eventually bring RMECs up to the standard we expect out of our named legendary weapons. Because while it was a different development team before, Relic owners made similar complaints at the Lv85 cap that Empyreans were too close to power of a relic for significantly less effort. That was eventually remedied, and hopefully the dev team will realize this isn't a path that the playerbase wants. I've sat by and watched while time after time suggestions were shot down because of "balance", wondering what the point of the official forums if our concerns are never addressed or taken into serious consideration. It honestly seems like if we the playerbase seems to find anything that is in our favor in terms of PvE, the dev team immediately finds a way to turn that around. I'm willing to bet that any inkling that ensures us that our legendary weapons aren't going to be aged out, the uproar that was caused this week will settle down and so many of your subscribers will ease up on their threats to cancel their service.

[na2tt300zx]

This is the first time i am ever posting on this forum and the only reason is because of the RAGE this company is making me feel right now. I have been paying you guys $15 a month for over 5 years, and you are pretty much telling me "HAHA JK YOU WASTED ALL YOUR TIME! Start over and deal with it!" Well f this. If the base damage on R/M/E isn't going to be made higher than the new weapons me and almost all relic holders i know(and don't know) will quit. A new weapon skill would be beyond useless, end of story. Step up to the plate and take care of the players who have worked and played hard in this game of yours for so many years

[Fermion]

I don't know about how everyone else actually feels, although most of everyone has already vocalized their disdain for the plans. But what was really upsetting to me was the prospect of our weapons with all the work we put in being worth null. I understand that it's not even close to being finalized, but why was it ever an option to invalidate a years worth of work (in my case) or the numerous relics some other people have. I'm still planning on 99ing at least one of my Empyreans in the optimism that they'll eventually bring RMECs up to the standard we expect out of our named legendary weapons. Because while it was a different development team before, Relic owners made similar complaints at the Lv85 cap that Empyreans were too close to power of a relic for significantly less effort. That was eventually remedied, and hopefully the dev team will realize this isn't a path that the playerbase wants. I've sat by and watched while time after time suggestions were shot down because of "balance", wondering what the point of the official forums if our concerns are never addressed or taken into serious consideration. It honestly seems like if we the playerbase seems to find anything that is in our favor in terms of PvE, the dev team immediately finds a way to turn that around. I'm willing to bet that any inkling that ensures us that our legendary weapons aren't going to be aged out, the uproar that was caused this week will settle down and so many of your subscribers will ease up on their threats to cancel their service.

Although your post is hard on the eyes, I'll try to answer some of your questions.


Relic owners made similar complaints at the Lv85 cap that Empyreans were too close to power of a relic for significantly less effort.

The difference is that none of the content at that time was as exclusionary as it is/was right now.


I've sat by and watched while time after time suggestions were shot down because of "balance", wondering what the point of the official forums if our concerns are never addressed or taken into serious consideration.

First off, you need to understand that the legendary Tanaka quote of "balance" is codeword for "money".
Secondly, these forums are simply another form of data for SE analysts. Think of it as SE "data-mining" us.


I'm willing to bet that any inkling that ensures us that our legendary weapons aren't going to be aged out, the uproar that was caused this week will settle down and so many of your subscribers will ease up on their threats to cancel their service.


The only "uproars" you're experiencing are in your mind, and on these forums. The bottom line will determine where this expansion will take us. Bottom line = money if you still don't get it.

Matsui's real genius is subtly allowing the playerbase to feel like they're controlling his decisions. ANYONE who is the boss ANYWHERE, will not give up that control so easily. He's simply making the smart business move to pander to the public. Same as American politicians. Give them the illusion of choice, then align the most popular choice with what's best for you. It's really a simple business strategy, but we're so emotionally involved with this game, that he's "whooshing" the entire playerbase.

Look, as I've said before, the best thing we can do at this point is keep our elitist mentality within our linkshells. Stop the R/E/M only shouts, and go back to a LS based game. Let the "casuals" actually experience the "end-game" content. They'll be owned so badly, that they'll have no choice but to farm better gear WITH EACH OTHER. While the "end-game" linkshells will continue to progress without a hiccup.

Meaning those of us in good Ls's will still have the gear advantage over the casuals, but at least they'll (casuals) have something to do. Which I believe was Matsui's plan, but we got too dog on emotional to realize it.

[AllenD]

200 Assault books, 400K Ampoules, 600K Tokens, and 120K Alexandrites down the drain. :(

[Alerith]

If this is going to be a progressive, old gear will, eventually have to be obsolete, including RMECs.

And halt. Pause. Rewind.

My question to the above quote is: "Why?"

I understand your argument about things needing to be progressive. That's fine. But R/M/E aren't subject to this rule. They are (or were) the best weapons in their class. They were the "Ultimate Weapons" of this game, with requirements that, for the most part, reflected such, and were to be the end all weapon for that type.

Why does what the weapon is (in this case, the Ultimate Weapon) have to change? Just because someone says progression can't happen without them becoming useless?

I don't think so. The trials did exactly what was necessary. They kept the Ultimate Weapons where they should be, which is at the top. Just because someone made their Mandau back in 2005 and eight years have now passed does not mean that the time they spent working on it is suddenly invalid.

People bring up this silly argument all the time. "R/M/E can't be the best forever!".

Why not? They were designed to be.

[ThaiChi]

Although your post is hard on the eyes, I'll try to answer some of your questions.

I didn't actually ask any questions, I was simply making a statement, but ok. I drew a parallel to a similar complaint by the playerbase from a prior situation. The fact of the matter is there's a large number of subscribers that are unhappy with the direction the current development team wants to take us, and as a response the community on this forum (a la said uproar) have threatened to cancel.

I don't particularly see what's so exclusionary about Delve, Nakaauls or any of the content released this week, but again the details of the game content aside, they've given us this official forums seemingly for us to voice what we want. But the players' pleas fall on deaf ears and the devs continue to blindly make adjustments regardless of the direction us the players want to be steered.

I made a mythic and I'm not panicked because you're right, I have a linkshell that does events regularly and a small group of people to do lowman content. The thing that made me a little irked is that legendary weapons seemed to be intended as the feather-in-your-cap for your jobs would be usurped in a single update--without the reassurance that the effort isn't gone to waste.

[Afania]

This is what I think of the whole situation. I believe Matsui had no choice.

First and foremost, Matsui is a businessman. His primary function is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. That being said, once the "pick-up" or casual paradigm switched to the R/E/M only mentality, those weapons were doomed. 99 R/E/M's are a tiny percentage of the total population. It may seem otherwise, but that's just do to continuous emotional posts (a lot by the same small group of people).

Anyone with a slight understanding of MMO industry would immediately understand why this is bad choice from money making POV.

Casuals in this game are less involved ones, that they often play on and off, not involve in any event/static, and would quit without 2nd thought for any reason. Even if those are in big numbers, it's not a stable customer base. Even if they can get delve weapons and enjoy the content on their jobs, they will still quit without 2nd thought for w/e reason. I've been in a casual LS full of new/returning player for years, and been observing it, that's just how less involved players do.

So this decision doesn't really benefit a customer base that would leave whether R/E/M is required or not.

Those players get locked out of content, unable to finish lv 85~90 empy(only a few jobs need lv 85~90 empy to perform properly) are the minority. Majority of the casuals have np making 85~90 empy at least. So this move is to please maybe 10%~20% of player base that may likely to leave again due to lack of involvement.

Players with lv 85~90 are the majority, and probably not affected that much. Those ppl often still come and go, just not as bad as casuals without R/E/M.

So this decision hurts players with 95 R/E/M owners the most.

They may be the minority compare with those without 95 R/E/M, but they often have multiple account, rarely take a break nor come and go. And they often develop strategies for content, and actively do newer contents. They're certainly more than 1% in numbers, at least not if you count their mules. And without them everything gets harder. They're the stable customer base that SE doesn't want to piss them off and drive them away.

If 70% of the current 95+ R/E/M owners are gone, you won't find ppl that involved enough in FFXI to do anything to begin with. You'd have to pt with a bunch of come and go players, unable to have a stable static, for newer endgame content such as delve. And the result is that even if you want to get involved, you may end up quitting. The result is player base shrink that hurts everyone.

A healthy MMORPG should have both dedicated customer base(smaller numbers, but won't leave easily), and casuals(come and go easily, play the game to see what's it like, but larger numbers). Just because less involved players are larger in number, doesn't mean you should ditch dedicated player to please them, because they won't increase in numbers and would go leave matter what you do. And if less involved players want to get involved/dedicated for some reason, it'd end up being harder because all the involved players quit. So in the end you get a bunch of come and go players left, and it's not healthy for a MMORPG that requires a static and such to do anything.

If anything, I'd say the mistake started from Abyssea, when SE want to hand out empy to everyone, then made relic realstic obtainable by the most. So now when they want to move away from R/E/M they'd need to piss off their most dedicated customer base, and unlikely to get new customer base anyways. And it's all started by same producer that have no idea how MMORPG works.

It has nothing to do with elitism, stop just calling everyone elitist when this issue is brought up. This is an issue that if they don't fix properly, it will make FFXI die faster and indirectly affects FFXIV.

[Afania]

Look at it this way, the developers are privy to much more data about the playerbase than we are. Once this R/E/M mentality started to get out of hand, I'm sure that SE noticed (probably due to subs. dropping at a curious rate). The thing is, when casuals quit due to being shut out of content they're paying for, they usually just leave (and this is a big one, they probably tend to not come back), unnoticed to us. But en masse, SE's red flags start going off. Think about it from the casual's perspective. Without a R/E/M they are excluded from pretty much everything but Abyssea. But the golden days of Abyssea are in the past. (And be honest with yourself, you know you did a lot of your Abyssea trials by giving out +2s to LS members or randoms). So unless they leveled bst and farmed dynamis for months (/snore), they were stuck at that level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the R/E/M holders did this to themselves. If you want to make a R/E/M only LS, that's great. Knock yourself out. But the problem is when that mentality crossed over to pick-up events. Matsui had to take action, his hands were tied. It's like a rich kid constantly showing off his money at a bar or something. Don't be surprised when you get robbed. You can't hoard your accomplishments (R/E/M only!) over the general public (casuals in this case) and not expect action to be taken.

Finally, let me pose a question to all the Xbox 360 R/E/M holders. How would you feel if you suddenly started encountering "PC only" shouts (you know what I'm really talking about)? You can get a part time job and pay for a nice new PC in way less hours than it takes to build a 99 R/E/M. But be honest, how would you really feel about being excluded like that?


Another clueless POV about MMO industry. R/E/M only mentality started by nobody else but SE. SE made relic obtainable by the majority, and majority of the player base has it, so they ended up having to adjust content difficulties for it. That's the real reason why R/E/M only. On top of certain DD job can't keep up without R/E/M.

I already post this example somewhere but I'll just copy and paste again.
If only 1% of player has R/E/M, it's ok to make mob HP 1000 Def 300, so avg players can beat it and content won't be too hard. You can't make mob HP 3000 Def 500 if only 1% of ppl has R/E/M, or else it'd be too hard for the majority.

If 80% of players has R/E/M, then you have to make every mob HP 3000 Def 500, if you still keep mob HP 1000 Def 300, the game would be too easy and you don't want that either.

And the result is, if you don't have R/E/M, mob HP 1000 Def 300 would be too hard for you.

Another reason is because certain job is too weak compare with other jobs. Before SoA DRK with a trial weapon or Ig-Alima GS has np doing reasonable dmg, while jobs like DRG was sooooo far behind and must need a Mythic to keep up.

If DRG MNK SAM WAR can do as much dmg as a DRK with an AH weapon, nobody would be R/E/M only.

The fact is, if you do VW with a bunch of DRG MNK WAR without R/E/M, you WILL notice it gets quite hard.....anything T6 or prov would suffer from much higher wipe rate.

And since you can get ppl with those weapon easy, why don't you do it? Would you rather spending 2hr making an ally to do event to wipe? I highly doubt you would.

All that R/E/M mentality wouldn't happen if SE keep top weapon 1% of player base, or if they keep the gap between job/weapons smaller. Because players would aim for most efficient setup no matter what.

As for PC only no Xbox, once again, blame SE for making Xbox shit and shit user interface. Why are you blaming the players? It's only human nature to take as much advantage as possible in a MMORPG. So dev shouldn't even create the gap to begin with.

[Kiyara]

Here is a suggestion that would compliment SE's idea and the player satisfaction for the R/M/E issue.

Make it where the R/M/E weapon can be transmigrated into a player stat/skill. If the weapon is either a 99 or 99 afterglow weapon, you would have 2 additional trials accordingly :

1) 99 weapon - complete said trial (maybe make it where you kill a string of different NMs, let's say 5-10, ranging from Fafnir to Genbu to normal Dynamis Lord etc) and once the trial is complete, you would be able to "absorb the weapon's properties" into your character which would reflect on any weapon you have. (i.e. Mandau - player absorbs the traits of the weapon's +35 attack, triple dmg 13% proc rate, unique WS, add effect poison, and WS's aftermath when used and these stats become part of your character permanently)

2) Same as above but you would get the afterglow as a permanent trait as well

This way the weapons become extremely valuable still by carrying over into your character and getting new weapons will greater benefit the player than just someone who only has the base new weapon, which would please R/M/E holders and SE's direction of having players do the new content for the better weapons.

Also, please make Umbral Marrow a bit more accessible >.> Needs more sources than just Arch Dynamis Lord (increase the number of marrows ADL drops from 1 to guaranteed 2 up to 3 and have all Arch Bosses capable of dropping the item along with normal DL being able to drop at a 10% drop rate). Along with the Mythic 99 item, make it drop from the Tier 4 VNMs (at a lower rate) along with Pandemonium Warden.

[Zirael]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.
You should go and deliver those deleted posts to Matsui, because that's exactly what we're thinking at the moment.

If I wanted to play the WoW's "wipe everyone's achievements every six months", I'd go play WoW. You are disrespectful to everyone, who is in the process of making, I don't know, let's say a 30000 alexandrite mythic, or who has finished one last week after months or YEARS of puking boredom you call Slavage and Dienamis and expect them to dig it and be cheerful?
How about Producer Matsui finishes leveling his character, makes a Mythic weapon and THEN tells me how I should be feeling about all of this?

[Afania]

Lore can change. Design ideas can change.



When you already have a dedicated customer base liked your current design ideas, and unlikely to attract new customer base(no way FFXI would attract current gen MMORPG gamers without a re-launch), you shouldn't change design ideas that would drive existing customer base away.





Second, people have been predicting the death of FFXI for YEARS for a variety of reasons. I fail to see what makes this so different.

When ppl have been predicting the death of FFXI for years, I always have confidence in them. But this time, I only see massive dmg done to this brand, that even if FFXI don't die after this, it speed up the process A LOT.

Yes, this time is just that different, even worse than Abyssea era, worse than the end of CoP, worse dyna change and such. It effectively turned dedicated/involved player base into less involved/dedicated ones. Why would you want want more less involved/dedicated players in a MMO?

Remember how server merge twice happened during Abyssea era? Good ideas =/= keeping players around.

[Areayea]

@Afania Abyssea death of game = Tanaka... other than that on your posts... you did mention that everyone is worthless without a R/E/M, which could be why they take that out so that new playerbase is achievable, but that brings us to why not just have the new weapons be a TINY bit less than R/E/Ms...

[Areayea]

oh there something else... there was an AWESOME thing about this update... it for COR and RNG ^^ the good old new recycle/scavenge rules

[Afania]

After Camate's last post, I'm kinda wondering...just what are they discussing? The best, easiest course of action is to just plan to increase R/M/E damage. Are they discussing what to raise them to? Or how to do it?

They're talking about FFXIV :( Cuz new producer is busy doing FFXIV stuff and unable to address this issue in XI atm.

/sigh another mistake SE made, made me lost faith in FFXIV too.

[BigPapaBlueJay]

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form

This idea is great, just make sure you boost the hell out of Relic, Empyrean and Mythic weapons base DMG, too. People would love to be able to do any of the Weapon Skills regardless of weapon, however, the Weapon Skill isn't the only thing to the weapon (excluding "Coin Weapons," in which this is the only reason to have those weapons). I would very much appreciate being able to do Ukko's Fury from my Shamash with my Conqueror.

[Areayea]

They're talking about FFXIV :( Cuz new producer is busy doing FFXIV stuff and unable to address this issue in XI atm.

/sigh another mistake SE made, made me lost faith in FFXIV too.

IMO... (IDK how much hate I'm going to get for saying this), I can't WAIT for FFXIV to be released and fail again... that way we can carry XI business as usual, there will be a lot of work done on the game (remember last time we got new avatars, empys/relics got worked on... ect) and hopefully they'll just focus on their flagship, and not try to make all these failing substations.

[Afania]

@Afania Abyssea death of game = Tanaka... other than that on your posts... you did mention that everyone is worthless without a R/E/M, which could be why they take that out so that new playerbase is achievable, but that brings us to why not just have the new weapons be a TINY bit less than R/E/Ms...

Yes, they take R/E/M concept out, and also most dedicated/involved player base is out too.

Don't you get it, keeping player base big is first priority, more important than anything else. No matter how awesome your ideas are, you can't execute it without resource(read: money from subs).

Once current involved R/E/M owners are out, SE makes less money, and for other players it's harder to get shit done. Let's say if I stay after this update, but most my friends with 95+ R/E/M, multiple account and log on everyday quit, how can I do newer and harder content without them? I may just feel frustrated and quit too.

I'm not sure why everyone's like "pissing off the minority isn't a big deal, as long as we don't have to use 1 set of weapon for another 5 years". This is NOT how you manage MMOs. You manage MMOs by having as many subs as possible, by keeping players that are involved, logged on EVERYDAY around. You don't want your customer base full of unstable subs, that'd play other games when new game is out. Because that'd affect everyone and making everyone else harder to get involved, and player base shrinks faster.

All for this for what? To please a player base that plays on and off, whether R/E/M exist or not? Get real. I've known enough friends/new/returning players that plays on and off for a reason. Mostly rl reason or just unable to get "involved". If you're unable to finish R/E/M because you only play 2 hours a week, do you think removing R/E/M would make you play more? No you won't. You still only play for 2 hours a week, with R/E/M or not, and even worse, without current R/E/M owners(because they all quit)things just gets harder. And if for some reason I have time to get involved again, I won't be able to find any dedicated players to play with again. My connections would full of playing on and off players, unable to static anything. And the result is I'm unable to get involved too and may as well just quit.


Then without the resources, SE won't be able to dev good content to achieve their vision that's like WOW and do gear reset every once a while.

If this game can last 10 more years with current playerbase, this gear reset just speed up the process and now it dies much faster.

The result hurts everyone, not just R/E/M owners(and they're certainly not minority).

The fact that new producer had no slight understanding how managing MMO works(not just building an awesome idea and design, but also keeping the players around) is pretty disappointing.

[Fermion]

Another clueless POV about MMO industry. R/E/M only mentality started by nobody else but SE. SE made relic obtainable by the majority, and majority of the player base has it, so they ended up having to adjust content difficulties for it. That's the real reason why R/E/M only. On top of certain DD job can't keep up without R/E/M.

I already post this example somewhere but I'll just copy and paste again.
If only 1% of player has R/E/M, it's ok to make mob HP 1000 Def 300, so avg players can beat it and content won't be too hard. You can't make mob HP 3000 Def 500 if only 1% of ppl has R/E/M, or else it'd be too hard for the majority.

If 80% of players has R/E/M, then you have to make every mob HP 3000 Def 500, if you still keep mob HP 1000 Def 300, the game would be too easy and you don't want that either.

And the result is, if you don't have R/E/M, mob HP 1000 Def 300 would be too hard for you.

Another reason is because certain job is too weak compare with other jobs. Before SoA DRK with a trial weapon or Ig-Alima GS has np doing reasonable dmg, while jobs like DRG was sooooo far behind and must need a Mythic to keep up.

If DRG MNK SAM WAR can do as much dmg as a DRK with an AH weapon, nobody would be R/E/M only.

The fact is, if you do VW with a bunch of DRG MNK WAR without R/E/M, you WILL notice it gets quite hard.....anything T6 or prov would suffer from much higher wipe rate.

And since you can get ppl with those weapon easy, why don't you do it? Would you rather spending 2hr making an ally to do event to wipe? I highly doubt you would.

All that R/E/M mentality wouldn't happen if SE keep top weapon 1% of player base, or if they keep the gap between job/weapons smaller. Because players would aim for most efficient setup no matter what.

As for PC only no Xbox, once again, blame SE for making Xbox shit and shit user interface. Why are you blaming the players? It's only human nature to take as much advantage as possible in a MMORPG. So dev shouldn't even create the gap to begin with.

I wasn't even going to respond until you devolved to personal attacks. To call my opinion "clueless" when you have no idea who I am, or what I do, is ignorance of the highest level.


R/E/M only mentality started by nobody else but SE.
So SE has mind control technology now?


SE made relic obtainable by the majority, and majority of the player base has it, so they ended up having to adjust content difficulties for it.

Look up the word majority, then cross reference that with the basic Economics, English, and Mathematical definitions. Then come back and edit your post. Protip, majority = more than half.


I already post this example somewhere but I'll just copy and paste again.
If only 1% of player has R/E/M, it's ok to make mob HP 1000 Def 300, so avg players can beat it and content won't be too hard. You can't make mob HP 3000 Def 500 if only 1% of ppl has R/E/M, or else it'd be too hard for the majority.


In the world of candyland, rainbows are much greater than lollipops. Protip: Use the agreed upon statistics we've figured out over the years instead of your made-up examples, or don't bother to "try" to use math to prove your points.


If 80% of players has R/E/M, then you have to make every mob HP 3000 Def 500, if you still keep mob HP 1000 Def 300, the game would be too easy and you don't want that either.



No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?



And the result is, if you don't have R/E/M, mob HP 1000 Def 300 would be too hard for you.

Enough with the imaginary math already. C'mon.


Another reason is because certain job is too weak compare with other jobs. Before SoA DRK with a trial weapon or Ig-Alima GS has np doing reasonable dmg, while jobs like DRG was sooooo far behind and must need a Mythic to keep up.


I apologize. It's obvious English isn't your first language. But to your point, tell me, do you know the damage percentage difference between those two jobs with said weapons, or are you just parroting something you read? If you can accurately break that down, then, maybe, we can have a discussion.

Honestly I'm bored of quoting your fail. Either step the discussion up with facts (not imaginary stats), or get over it. I get it, you worked hard for your R/M/E. But step back, calm down, and talk to me rationally or gtfo.

[Afania]

oh there something else... there was an AWESOME thing about this update... it for COR and RNG ^^ the good old new recycle/scavenge rules



All that good thing completely ruined by 1 bad decision and bad communication :(

[Metaking]

well first off, yes im hoping REM are brought back to there rightful status remember those weapons are a symbol for many people, not everyone magically had an alliance or 2 mules there DBing to finish a emp but instead chiped away at it, more an ideal than a absolute fact that they would one day finish it to 99 tho it gave them a goal that brought them back day after day, alot of the people accepting them as are try to say most people dont have a relic or emp (there spot on on mythics tho, those are rare), but i walk down port jeuno and excluding the blms schs and whms everyone and there brother has one at one stage or another, im not just talking about the elite level, now not everyone had a 99 which was for good reason (mainly becaus well alot of us dont have time to earn more than maybe 1-5mil a week and for alot of people thts going to dry up (dynamis VW salvage) as upgrade items free fall. I mean seriously i am pretty sure there are many people who have been working from day one on hmps just slowly chipping away at the objective of the 1322 plates i have i farmed 400 before i started buying any because to me, that Almace is a symbol that i chose to make my blu my bad ass job, i see a blu with a 99 almace i know he is a crazy rdm a dedicated pld or my peer as a blu.

With that said however its now time for what i see as a silver lining lets say the let us use are star weaponskill with other weapons and assuming they give after math to said weapons and still upgrade are RME could they not also at the same time if we main hand an upgraded rme finally give the after math status also to are off hand >.>/ ..... someone kill that cricket....

[Zhronne]

I'm confused.
So a solution that a player thought about on the SoA release day (Karbuncle) is actually all they have in mind for REMC?
I was hoping they had something more... complex in mind.

I guess this new version of the quested WS will carry over the properties it has on the original weapon, so Aftermath, Afterglow, +30% damage, +45% damage or nothing if we're talking about the WoE version.
This is preposterous.

It might put some new life into WoE, for a while at least, but what's gonna happen to Dynamis, to Salvage, to Voidwatch?
They had JUST finished revamping all that content to make it relevant, and now they destroyed it all again.
Really, I think a 16 years old game designer could have thought of a better solution.
It seems like they're not thinking about the consequences, acting just on the spur of the moment... is this Abysseav2? The same thing happened back then and it took them 2 years to get back on track and rebalance things that got broken by the fact they applied changes (as cool as they may have been) without thinking on the consequences.
Now this is happening again... you'd think they had learned their lesson but appearently some people never learn.

Is this a keen attempt to make us jump over to FFXIV or what?

[Afania]

I wasn't even going to respond until you devolved to personal attacks. To call my opinion "clueless" when you have no idea who I am, or what I do, is ignorance of the highest level.



Wow pissed off when I call you clueless that much? It's not even a "personal" attack, it's just pointed out that the point you made isn't thoughtful enough.

I don't care about who you are nor what you do, I don't know and not interested to know. I only care about what you said makes sense or not, sadly it doesn't.



So SE has mind control technology now?


Lol no, it's just human nature. Ppl would do things this way, that's just how it goes. Name me ONE MMORPG that that main stream strategy doesn't involve most efficient setup. WoW everyone loved so much had same issue for YEARS.

You don't need mind control technology, you only need basic understanding of psychology.





Look up the word majority, then cross reference that with the basic Economics, English, and Mathematical definitions. Then come back and edit your post. Protip, majority = more than half.

In the world of candyland, rainbows are much greater than lollipops. Protip: Use the agreed upon statistics we've figured out over the years instead of your made-up examples, or don't bother to "try" to use math to prove your points.


So do you have YOUR math to prove your point, that dedicated player with R/E/M contribute less than players with NO R/E/M?

A lot of players with ZERO R/E/M are either just mules, low lv players, or players wanted to try FFXI just cuz they're curious about it or they miss it. They're not even involved in this game. And some doesn't get R/E/M because they don't need it.

So can you prove that out all that player that's involved, more than half of them still won't be able to get at least lv 85 R/E/M?

Do you think analyzing MMORPG user preferences, is about getting the current sub number, and see the % those sub number has R/E/M? It's way more complicated than that. You asked me for math, unfortunatly, you won't be able to provide one yourself.




I apologize. It's obvious English isn't your first language. But to your point, tell me, do you know the damage percentage difference between those two jobs with said weapons, or are you just parroting something you read? If you can accurately break that down, then, maybe, we can have a discussion.


Yes, give me a sec and I'll give you the numbers with spreadsheet, this is actually easier to pull off. I wonder what makes you believe that the % between jobs can't be calculated?




Honestly I'm bored of quoting your fail. Either step the discussion up with facts (not imaginary stats), or get over it. I get it, you worked hard for your R/M/E. But step back, calm down, and talk to me rationally or gtfo.

I wonder who is acting irrationally here, by assuming how MMO industry works. The real number is that server merge happened twice during Abyssea era when same clueless producer pulled off same shit years ago, are you going to say this didn't happen and it's not "numbers"?

[Areayea]

@Afania #207 (yes I'm turning this to twitter chat XD) ok, so while I'm not completely destroying my opinion that they should just boost dmg on relics, and stats on mythics, the ws thing might actually be a good idea for Empys; anyway despite I presume that that's what's going to happen... allow me to disect your statement, just to play Devils advocate, However just know that I DO want them to up stuff on R/E/Ms or absorb them... but then you don't have the pretty weapons anymore D:... anyway

First big comment... was about pretty much keeping consistent players... for that statement as a SALESPERSON... especially when it's on a monthly subscription; it doesn't matter if people use the game for 2 minutes per month or literally are on 24/7 all 4 weeks of the month, so whether or not your a casual player SE still makes money; now conceptually if you look at FFXIAH rankings; people who just have 1 empy not 99 or anything, just 1 empy lvl 80, and some basic missions done (yes I know with guildwork app, and not everyone using it isn't autoloaded to everyone but then that can go both ways, but for our sakes we're just talking about NA, general FFXIAH users, and using general phoenix data); you can jump from #931 all the way to about 500... that means that there are about 40% that have a lvl 80 empy... which is good, now take about 20% of that for mules so about 80% of all people have empys... now you look even closer when you get 2 empys, and sometimes a relic with a lot of missions done you get to about #300, which means that 30% of everyone has a relic or 2 empys~, anyway you get my point most people don't have a lot of relics... there are a lot of empys but a lot more people than not just have 1 empy... relics are still hard yes, which is why I do agree they do need to + the dmg on them, but the delve weapons were a good idea, simply because it's obvious and I can't wait for the census to come out so I can see what the Empy/relic/mythic amount for last year was.

Next point: the 2 hours a week... obviously if you're playing 2 hours a week again... they don't care, they get paid the 13.00 a month anyway, I can't tell you when I was in my HORRIFIC time in my life I still paid that and basically NEVER played... there were a few months I didn't pay, but ever since I was able to handle all that I've been on at least 50~ hours a week (that's been for like about 2 years now).

Last point: This game still isn't wow, I personally don't play wow because it's too cartooney, and XI came out first and XI is wayyy better, through and through even still with this /shocked creator. and through and through it still really only affects 1% of people unless you have a 99 R/E/M, I know a ton of people with just 95, and the people with 99 are in the already super crazy established linkshells that would succeed with or without their R/E/Ms, I've talked to a lot of them and IN GAME, not in forums they don't care that there are better weapons, they can't get their hands on them.

[Aequis]

They're talking about FFXIV :( Cuz new producer is busy doing FFXIV stuff and unable to address this issue in XI atm.

/sigh another mistake SE made, made me lost faith in FFXIV too.

FFXIV and its producer (Yoshida) are not connected to FFXI or its producer (Matsui), insofar as they don't have anything to do with each other's jobs. If anything, Yoshida may have learned valuable experience in what not to do in certain situations with his game, but look at what it's cost Matsui.

Please don't let what happens in XI colour your judgement in XIV. They are completely separate games.

In general, they were also right to delete some of the very offensive posts. I hate this new update too, but if you're going to get angry, do it at Square Enix as a company and not Matsui as an individual. No single person deserves that, despite all the bad calls he's making...

It's not even about R/E/M for me since none of mine are lv99 yet. It's the way they made almost everything before SoA obsolete in one small update, or the way we've been thrown onto this high-speed conveyor belt of gear progression. Out two months (barely weeks due to access issues) and already the Naakuul fights have been reduced to a stepping stone you need for Delve access.

I didn't ask for all of my goals-in-progress to be made a waste of time and I'm sure no-one else in the same position did. This is the true reason most people are upset. The motivation has gone and we're left wondering, "Why bother?". That, I believe, is impossible for Square Enix to turn around right now.

[Afania]

Enough with the imaginary math already. C'mon.
I apologize. It's obvious English isn't your first language. But to your point, tell me, do you know the damage percentage difference between those two jobs with said weapons, or are you just parroting something you read? If you can accurately break that down, then, maybe, we can have a discussion.



Ok so you want numbers and I give you numbers. Note that I have no DD job, so I'm pretty sure my set isn't optimal and probably have some "confused" choice. If you're more familiar with the job you're free to give me better set to see if the result is different(and I doubt it)

Target: Ig-alima, 10% def down, double march, 25% chaos, 16% DA, STR DEX crit-hit merit full. RCB

DRK/SAM TP:
OAT/pole/Bomb core
Bale+2/bale neck/brutal/bale
Perle/bale+2/Rajas/hoard
atheling/goading/jingang/ace

22% haste total

DRK/SAM reso:
OAT/Pole/Fracas
Mekira NQ/gorget/brutal/moonshade
Twilight/avant+1/rajas/spiral
Atheling/ele/bale+2/bale+2

Basically Abyssea level of DRK with just +2 and perle, no expensive gear.

WS dmg:1473
Set DPS:197
Combined DPS 145

V.S

DRG/SAM

TP:
OAT/pole grip/hagneia stone
Phorcys/ganesha/brutal/Ghillie +1
Enif/ogier/rajas/tyrant
Atheling/goading/phorcys/Lancer +2

26% haste


Stardiver WS:
OAT/Pole/thew
Mekira +1/gorget/brutal/moonshade
Lancer+2/Lancer+2/rajas/pyrosoul
Atheling/ele belt/lancer+2/Wyrm +2(not sure how high augment of heca's can go)

Basically it's a DRG with gear that's 1 tier better, with NNI gear and more expensive rings.

WS dmg:1000
Set DPS:187
Combined DPS:120

So a DRG with MUCH better gear still can't compare with a perle DRK with 0 endgame experience.

You can give me better sets for both jobs to see if the result changes, but until you're able to give me the result to prove that DRG can keep up with DRK with no R/E/M on higher lv target, you're the one that's clueless about this issue.

[Afania]

FFXIV and its producer (Yoshida) are not connected to FFXI or its producer (Matsui), insofar as they don't have anything to do with each other's jobs. If anything, Yoshida may have learned valuable experience in what not to do in certain situations with his game, but look at what it's cost Matsui.

Please don't let what happens in XI colour your judgement in XIV. They are completely separate games.


FFXI and XIV are made by same company, shared the same brand, this is not avoidable. Even though it's 2 different project, it still tied to each other and you can't seperate it, thats the reality of marketing.

If FFXI pulled off bad decision to piss off core customer base like this, maybe one day FFXIV would do the same. So before I play FFXIV I'd think twice before investing my time in this product.

Blizzard and WoW is the same, if Blizzard fuck up their 1 title, do you think it won't affect future titles? It will.

[Kitkat]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

Camate
It has nothing to do with it not being finalized and everything to do with the fact it is a poorly realized plan. As stated in my prior post, unless it could transfer all of the perks over for the user to maintain (Hidden ODD/OTD, Aftermath, WS, etc) it is a very bad move to not simply enhance the weapon. Plain and simple: We don't want this plan finalized at all - especially when the person telling it to use can't even tell us if it is possible to transfer all the reasons people made these weapons for in the first place.

I can tell you right now I didn't make my Mandau and Almace just for a WS. I made them because they increased the over all damage output for the jobs I play and can equip the weapons. Back at 75 it didn't get any better than Mandau and it was made relevant even at 99 because developers took the time and effort to instate trials that brought the weapon up to par with the new kids in the play ground (Emp weapons).

Mythic weapons went through a transformation of their own that made them extremely well balanced as endgame weapons as well. Boost to the Mythic weapon skills that weren't very strong to begin with, enhanced the aftermath making some of these better than any other endgame weapon (including relic and emp), and further increased the "enhances X job ability." Needless to say these weapons took an extremely long time to make in comparison to other weapons for a long while also due to the types of requirements each player had to go through to get them done.

Emp. Weapons came and stole the lime-light for a decent while, and in some cases are still a pretty mean weapon in the hands of a well geared player. Up to the 90 stage is not very difficult, but does take time to do. It gets fairly ridiculous once you work on the 95-99 stage as this part starts to heavily rely on players to continue doing VWNM, but with recent updates you are effectively making it totally pointless for players to continue doing these events by totally negating the gear that comes from these events. This means that players also will stop doing them enmass to get plates that they then turn around and sell to other players working on the final stages of Emp weapons. Additionally, these weapons give the largest chunk of +stat that works for the WS in some cases by 99 (+20).

Last but not least, the famous afterglow effect; something developers added to these weapons to give players the incentive to really go above and beyond so they had the absolute best of the best and something to show for it. This Idea totally tramples on the players who dragged other players along for hours of farming up pop items then fighting to attain the necessary materials to eventually get to this point. Now you are telling these players that they wasted their time because you are planning on negating their effort in place of allowing them to use the weaponskill and maybe the aftermath at the least rather than keep their weapons relevant in the long run? Isn't that sort of a slap to the face of not just the playerbase but the developers who left it this way because they had not intention of making the weapons obsolete due to the time and effort to make them?

Camate, please make sure that Matsui is made very aware of how displeased we players are with this idea so that they possibly stop working on it all together in favor of a better alternative. I'm sorry, but you don't make players spend years building and enhancing these weapons then simply tell them "we aren't planning to continue Magian trials to enhance weapons, and we are thinking of making legendary weapons obsolete but we'll let you keep the WS for all your hard work!"

[Cahlum]

Can people please stop suggesting ways to make transferring WS aftermath etc over to our new weapons.

Do you really want your weapon to become nothing more than a mannequin's weapon.

Anything short of a base DMG increase on the REM or a nerf to Delve weapon dmg is not acceptable.

[Afania]

First big comment... was about pretty much keeping consistent players... for that statement as a SALESPERSON... especially when it's on a monthly subscription; it doesn't matter if people use the game for 2 minutes per month or literally are on 24/7 all 4 weeks of the month, so whether or not your a casual player SE still makes money

Actually it does matter for MMO. If player A that's active but only play 2 hours a week and no set schedule/static, then he is less involved in this game than player B that's active and log on everyday to do event.

If you look at the numbers, they pay same $13 a month and they have same contribution, but in reality, player A isn't a stable customer, they can cancel account for any reason. I've seen players like this for years, they play on and off, doesn't care about progress. Sometimes they're just returning player missing this game, but unable to get involved due to lack of time. They don't have any static nor connection, and not involved in LS events. They can go to any other MMO if new MMO released, and never come back. And they would cancel their account to save money if they get real busy.

Most important of all, if SE going to release a harder content that requires an alliance, they will not join. They may join once or twice for fun, but they will never get involved and static with anyone because they can't and don't want to.

On the other hand, those who owns 95+ R/E/M, maybe have a mule or 2(so yes, more income for SE too), often have a static a couple of days a week. So they won't quit just that easily, even there's another new MMO.

If SE going to release more content, it's those dedicated that would go for it, not those less involved in this game, period. Because I've seen enough come and go players that never made it to +2 /empy stage and quit, nor interested in ANY newer event. Resetting gears won't appeal them, because the main purpose to reset gears is to get them to do newer/harder content, which they're not interested to begin with.

From salesperson's prospective, you want to keep dedicated players around, and try to make casual players involved, instead of just come and go.

And once all that dedicated players left, there are no reason come and go players don't come and go faster when everything gets harder.

My LS is full of come and go players, at least 90% of them are. They've been doing Abyssea since it's out, and still doing Abyssea now, because they come and go so those players are replaced every once a while.

As one of the player that doesn't come and go, I often drag them to static with me, or help them get gears, things like this sometimes get them involved in the game and less likely to come and go anymore. So out of maybe 20 come and go players, 1 stayed and joined a static, and became a more stable customer.

Say if I leave, so does every other dedicated players in same LS. Those come and go players won't have anyone to static with for any harder content, and they just come and go faster. Do you think erasing the concept of R/E/M made them stay? No. Ppl in my LS still do Abyssea and CN party, they rarely go to SoA area, ever, even after SoA release. And they certainly have no intention to deal with delve/reive NMs, nor hitting tree root for 2hr even if there are no R/E/M. They need a static to do event to stay, they need someone ask them "wanna do delve every day at 9PM?", they need a push from more dedicated players, then maybe one day when they have the resources they'd become dedicated players themselves.

And now they just likely to leave faster because even if they do have the time to become a more dedicated player, they won't find anyone to do event with, and would just ended up quitting for another game.

tl;dr

If I'm managing an MMO, I don't want players that pay $13 a months that may* cancel sub anytime they want. I want players that pay $13 a month, and often drag more friends to pay more $13 a month to play together, and I want players willing to pay more than $13 a month for mules. Paying for $13 a month but may cancel anytime just isn't what I would aim for

[Draylo]

Why is this in the "early" stages? Shouldn't something have been thought of when these weapons were created...?

[Werewolf]

If they can't come up with a better fix than this I think I'm through with Final Fantasy XI; I'd been losing interest in the game and was hoping the new expansion would peak some interest back into it... I think it did the complete opposite.

I've been playing since the PS2 Beta, I did all the stuff pre-nerf and this whole just soured my opinion of how they run this game lately; it's not easy for me playing so long to leave... but they way things have been going lately there's no point in staying either :(

So long FFXI, it's been fun~
2004 - 2013

[Kitkat]

Can people please stop suggesting ways to make transferring WS aftermath etc over to our new weapons.

Do you really want your weapon to become nothing more than a mannequin's weapon.

Anything short of a base DMG increase on the REM or a nerf to Delve weapon dmg is not acceptable.

So you know, what I stated was to show what people made the weapon for initially. Unique look or not, this is the primary reason people made the weapons and if SE can't transfer all of this to the other weapons (no small undertaking I can assure you) then it would be far less troublesome to just increase the base damage of the weapon through other means rather than spend time doing something they might not be able to implement anyway. It isn't a matter that people want SE to transfer it so the weapons become useless, it is the fact that we want to set insurmountable ridges so they understand what the playerbase would deem "acceptable" if they plan to continue with this course.

Personally I'd rather they just continue with base damage increases myself, but if they continue to ignore this then it might as well be exceedingly clear what players deem acceptable in exchange for them not increasing base damage. It is called the use of ultimatums or haggling; an exchange of one for the other so long as certain requirements be met while understanding that the requirements would be exceptionally difficult in order to sway the decision in your favor.

[VoiceMemo]

As a few posters back pointed out, yes this may not have been Matsui's choice, but Tanaka's. I think the mentality shifted when Dynamis was overhauled to V2. when This was announced I was adamantly opposed to the dynamis change. Dynamis(relic weapons) in general before took way more effort to create.

You had to understand the economics of your server, to be able to accumulate enough gil for the (then 1mil, and after 500k)(I'm talking about legitimate funding, not anyone that bought gil) entrance fee for the hourglass. That was just for the entry, then you needed the manpower and the
strategies to be able to have a successful run. Success being, farming currency, killing attestation mobs, fragment mobs, knowing when to sac, mob linking/mechanics etc. It took ALOT more skill to run V1 dynamis successfully. Granted yes some leaders abused ls members by taking advantage of them for their own selfish greed. I myself ran a dynamis linkshell for a number of years, but
I view myself as an exception, as even after I finished my Gjallarhorn I remained and helped others get relic. Till this day I still do dynamis to help others achieve relic. I believe I have repaid the help to obtain my relic at least 3 times over.

After the change to dynamis v2, it put the thought into everyone's head that relic could be obtained by all. Since now the gil requirement was removed. It could be done in time just from doing dynamis.

Empyrean was the other factor that set the mentality this way. I've always been opposed to empyrean. As a relic holder who made it from V1(Gjallarhorn), I understood why other relic holders were mad when Empyrean weapons were outclassing Relics. Now with the addition of weapons that outclass the Empyrean, Empyrean holders now understand how we relic holders felt.

So in a sense SE dug it's own grave to this mentality, based on the previous changes that were made.

I believe it now comes down to SE's business model. They need to decide which will retain more players for the longest amount of time.

Whether it being the hard core players like myself, who have played this game for some 10 years now(never stopped payment during that time). Or the casual players who come and go.

For me the changes do not hit as hard as other players. I myself am a career bard. There is no new instrument, Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla are the 2 best instruments bard has atm. I don't foresee SE ever replacing either one. Much like how Aegis and Ochain are for pld. Granted these cases are unique, where it's not a weapon.

The counterpoint though is that ever time relic weapons have gotten updates for dmg or special effects, both instrument and shield have not gotten anything.

I'm still opposed to instrument and shield being treated as second class relics/emps. They are indeed just as time consuming to make as weapons are, so should we not get boots as well? I've been a long time advocate of a relic only song for Gjallarhorn.

I still am perusing mythic dagger for bard, but again I'm doing it mostly for the song duration. Mordant Rime with aftermath will be fun but I have no illusions of being top DD with it, but at least I will be able to contribute dmg greater than that of a normal bard(mandau/twashtar bard excluded) while still able to maintain all my songs due to the higher duration I'll have from Carnwenhan.

Again my case is unique due to the nature of bard. A bards job is to buff others around them NOT direct dmg. We live vicariously though others, we are the grease that makes the gears of a party run smoothly. So granted yes I don't do large damage directly, I help to contribute to the damage.

I can completely understand where the DD/Mages are coming from where the new weapons far outclass the existing (R E M)(I don't count WOE weps) weps. Something must be done, whether it be
boosting (R E M)(I don't count WOE weps) or nefing the new weps/monster stats. I personally am in favor of boosting, SE had a time when they said they were going to stop nerf adjustments, in favor of boosting those that needed the boost. I feel the giving way is better than taking away.

In either case the final decision rests with SE. They need to decide which will benefit them the most, either keeping long time players or the casual. As it seems we've gotten to the point where we can't have a balance of the two.

[xiozen]

people over reacting and should wait a few till they get back into the offices

Um...wait?! wait?! absolutely not... you react and you react swiftly and with meaning behind your reaction--assuming you care that is.

Those that have not earned a R/E/M/ should probably be the ones to "wait a few till they get back into the offices"...since they'll have absolutely nothing to lose from this "idea" that has not yet been finalized.

My call to those that have invested time, money, gil, and God only knows how many other sacrifices in their life over months or years to create an R/E/M, please do not "wait a few till they get back into the offices"...you react and you react swiftly with your responses... because silence only leads to the assumption that you are "OK" with their proposed direction.

[Kari]

Um...wait?! wait?! absolutely not... you react and you react swiftly and with meaning behind your reaction--assuming you care that is.

Those that have not earned a R/E/M/ should probably be the ones to "wait a few till they get back into the offices"...since they'll have absolutely nothing to lose from this "idea" that has not yet been finalized.

My call to those that have invested time, money, gil, and God only knows how many other sacrifices in their life over months or years to create an R/E/M, please do not "wait a few till they get back into the offices"...you react and you react swiftly with your responses... because silence only leads to the assumption that you are "OK" with their proposed direction.

SE hasn't even given concrete information on their plans, and they already know we won't settle for anything that makes RMEC useless. Your argument is bad. Relics/Empys are not freaking hard to make, and plenty of RMEC owners are going to say the same, "Just wait". It's fine to tell SE what we want and what we don't want, it's not fine for people to freak out because their items are currently outdated when they've already said updates are planned.

[Kojo]

SE hasn't even given concrete information on their plans, and they already know we won't settle for anything that makes RMEC useless. Your argument is bad. Relics/Empys are not freaking hard to make, and plenty of RMEC owners are going to say the same, "Just wait". It's fine to tell SE what we want and what we don't want, it's not fine for people to freak out because their items are currently outdated when they've already said updates are planned.

They said updates were planned and when he finally revealed their current plan, it was to trash the weapons and let us unlock the horrible WS.

[Demon6324236]

I personally am in favor of boosting, SE had a time when they said they were going to stop nerf adjustments, in favor of boosting those that needed the boost. I feel the giving way is better than taking away.In theory that sounds nice, but in reality that is far more destructive in this case. Take for instance my Aluh Jambiya, it was a great dagger before this expansion, if they change only RMEs, or even worse, only 99RMEs, it pushes the ideal of RME or GTFO even further. I am sure I am not the only one who has hated the idea that the game moved to a standpoint where the weapon you wield means more to most people than the gear you wear with it. Specifically, I have always hated the fact people do shouts for things like VW, which is easy content now days even, and still require people to have RMEs. What I am getting at is if they make this change, it will be another reason to push out people without RMEs or these new weapons, the DMG on the new ones is insane, and if RMEs are put to that level and nothing else, then mayhem will be caused on the lower leveled weapons.

To boost the RMEs would mean they have to go back to every other weapon in the game and raise its damage, so that it scales more quickly to a higher level, at the same time it would cause them to re-balance mobs, all of this is a lot more work and in the end SE would probably end up with the game being very similar to if they had simply nerfed it. If they did not do this kind of re-balancing, either one of two things will happen.

A:Old content will become a waste of time, no one will bother with the trash gear, kind of like how no one bothers with gear between level 70 to 99 except for a few special pieces unless it is R/EX and an amazing piece of gear from that level which stands out. This route kills much of the game up to this point.

B:They would change weapons to scale better, but they would not change mobs to go with it, weapons from the AH would be able to kill the hardest of mobs with little effort. Things like Legion would become a cake walk because mobs would be so easy to kill and would die so much faster. Leveling in the old way would be completely obliterated for everyone, mobs would die much to fast, the experience to be had would be ruined. This route kills the difficulty of the game up to this point.

In the end, their best option is either nerf these weapons, or boost almost every other weapon in the game to scale up to these standards and then re-balance the entire game around it.

[Falseliberty]

Dear Matsui please return all the the glory back to relic owners, BECAUSE I'M DROWING IN THEIR TEARS

What is all this crap about hard work? let me ask you something how many Bandnaroks was there before resolution?
How many are there now? hard work my ass. The only thing people care about is that there e-peen is kinda flaccid now
Mythic owners have been a joked on since day 1, but since you spent 4 months ignoring calls from your friends to hang out at bars, get drunk and try and score tang. You wanna blame SE and not let the game evolve and stagnate.

"God only knows how many other sacrifices in their life over months or years to create an R/E/M"

You might need a guidance counselor and maybe medical help or both. ITS A VIDEO GAME

Having said all that maybe SE should let us know what plans they have in store for us ^^

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19749/ragnarok

.... hard work indeed

[Kojo]

Dear Matsui please return all the the glory back to relic owners, BECAUSE I'M DROWING IN THERE TEARS

What is all this crap about hard work? let me ask you something how many Bandnaroks was there before resolution?
How many are there now? hard work my ass. The only thing people care about is that there e-peen is kinda flaccid now
Mythic owners have been a joked on since day 1, but since you spent 4 months ignoring calls from your friends to hang out at bars, get drunk and try and score tang. You wanna blame SE and not let the game evolve and stagnate.

"God only knows how many other sacrifices in their life over months or years to create an R/E/M"

You might need a guidance counselor and maybe medical help or both. ITS A VIDEO GAME

Having said all that maybe SE should let us know what plans they have in store for us ^^

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19749/ragnarok

.... hard work indeed

Quite a few WAR were getting them before Resolution, Bandwagnarok began before Resolution, Resolution just made DRKs join in.

[Tace]

I did some number crunching with relics and the hidden occ deals 2x 2.5x 3x base damage rateings and useing examples such as say rag 99 @ 143 and 2.5x D proc means it hits like it is a 357 weapon with acc+40 and +16% critical rate..or you can look at apoc 2xproc of D 334 most relic weps if had full time relic proc active would destory even the new delve gear anhi's 3x proc 228 + the 145 bullet for 373 dmg and near hateless ws etc etc..now this may be too simple of an idea for SE to go with it...but making a quest so that the relic dmg procs is 100% would help make them still relevant but this is SE were talking about so take it for what you will.

[VoiceMemo]

In the end, their best option is either nerf these weapons, or boost almost every other weapon in the game to scale up to these standards and then re-balance the entire game around it.

That is probably the easier way for SE to accomplish "balance" sooner, but if the weapons were designed for Delve's, the mobs in Delves will have to be adjusted too so they are beatable with current weapons, as it seems they were designed for them, so it's just a re-balance of 1 event vs many events.

This probably would have popped up, had Delves been on the test servers for us to try out before actual implementation.

[Kojo]

That is probably the easier way for SE to accomplish "balance" sooner, but if the weapons were designed for Delve's, the mobs in Delves will have to be adjusted too so they are beatable with current weapons, as it seems they were designed for them, so it's just a re-balance of 1 event vs many events.

This probably would have popped up, had Delves been on the test servers for us to try out before actual implementation.

This and This again after you edited in the Test Server bit. Personally, I don't think any full-time weapon should have this kind of damage, I assumed the final version of Apoc would be pushing 220 at the end of SoA, but Monday's update just blew my mind, not in a good way, I assure you. The new weapons weren't the only thing that bothered me, I was expecting there to be more, better stuff for RUN, but this Relic issue is more important at the moment.

[Kari]

They said updates were planned and when he finally revealed their current plan, it was to trash the weapons and let us unlock the horrible WS.

Uhh, you realize that when SE tells you one of their plans, that it's not the ONLY plan? Nowhere do I see them saying "This is the only thing we're going to do to make RME worthwhile" -- just that it was part of the plan.


Quite a few WAR were getting them before Resolution, Bandwagnarok began before Resolution, Resolution just made DRKs join in.

I don't know how you can be so wrong. Nobody wanted Ragnarok prior to Resolution existing. Has nothing to do with jobs.

[faco]

si SE bouge pas ses fesses et ne fait pas d'update pour remettre les r/m/e je pense que je vais stop ff11 pour montrer a cette grosse merde d'editeur qu'il font n'importe quoi ; on a mis longtemps a faire ces armes des mois pour certaine et eux par ce qu'il on decide ca comme ca dans leur petite tete de jp d'abrutis et bien du jour au lendemain ces armes ne valent pus rien ( ca me motive pas a commence le 14 et fair les relic si il refont de la merde comme ca ) serieu se bougez votre cul ou vous allez perde plein de joueur .....

[Mirage]

si SE bouge pas ses fesses et ne fait pas d'update pour remettre les r/m/e je pense que je vais stop ff11 pour montrer a cette grosse merde d'editeur qu'il font n'importe quoi ; on a mis longtemps a faire ces armes des mois pour certaine et eux par ce qu'il on decide ca comme ca dans leur petite tete de jp d'abrutis et bien du jour au lendemain ces armes ne valent pus rien ( ca me motive pas a commence le 14 et fair les relic si il refont de la merde comme ca ) serieu se bougez votre cul ou vous allez perde plein de joueur .....
What he said.

[Drakox]

Same as my peers or SE seeks another solution or leave the game forever
I'm tired of the bad ideas of this company

[Horadrim]

It's astonishing how unprovokedly rude, and wrong, by the way, you are. There were better ways you could've worded that, but you went the easy, belligerent route. Go you!

Ogawdatcommasplice.

Also quoted for truth (kind of).

[Connavarr]

I just returned to the game yestereday after an 8 month hiatus since I'd done most of what I'd wanted to do and was waiting for the expansion. Real life made me a month late on that, and I arrive to this mess. I have 2 Empryean weapons, an almost 90 Ukon and a just finished 80 Almace. My plan was to work on both while playing around in Adoulin. As of now, there is no reason for me to bother to invest anymore of my time on these weapons. None.

While I like the idea of unlocking the WS's, like we can already do for Mythics, this is not a solution for this issue. The only acceptable solution to this is to increase the base damage of the level 99 R/M/E/C weapons in the next version update. No trials, no quests. Just log in after the version update and have your hardwork on obtaining the 99 be reflected right away. This is ONLY for the 99's, prior stages can stay as is, as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah, that means my 80-90 level Empy's are gimp as hell, but I'd have work to do to make them relevant.

You want to unlock the Relic/Empryean WS's? Fine, you can do that ON TOP of increasing the damage of the 99 versions. Finish 99 WoE weapon, unlock Empy WS. Use the fake relics from Abyssea, use the WS oh, say, 100 times on *insert mob type here* and you've unlocked the Relic WS. Note: you just get the WS, not the +40% damage increase the 99 Relic owner has.

Win/win. Oh, and this helps the issue of Merit WS's. I know I'd make a WoE Katana to access Blade: Hi since I can't merit :Shun and have no desire to 99 the Kannagi.

Everybody wins, the casual players and the hardcores. Faith is restored, atleast somewhat, and we keep on enjoying this game for years to come.

Not hard, Matsui, not hard at all.

[pretre]

would be nice to have a member of the dev team post to say they have read this thread and can see this is not a solution and will take what we have asked for into account.

[Vivik]

would be nice to have a member of the dev team post to say they have read this thread and can see this is not a solution and will take what we have asked for into account.

Try reading the thread.


I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

[Emitremmus]

I'm upset that the Bounding Boots that I got after more than 300 kills of Leaping Lizzy over a span of 8 years are now in fact obsolete. I demand that SE make sure that I get an afterglow on them due to all of the time I put in to obtaining them. Also make them Lv. 99 and have DEX+600 AGI+600.

[pretre]

Try reading the thread.

try reading what I wrote, he hasn't said that there idea wont work and they wont continue with opening ws now

[dartcron]

This is what I think, I know I already said my opinion however, since I said my opinion I learned a little bit more about afterglows on empyreans, relics and Mythics.

Firstly, afterglows overwrite any aftermath effect a player may currently have regardless of the type. Which I think needs to be fixed.

Mythics have the Occasionally Attacks 2-3 times Aftermath,
Relics have an aftermath effect for each weapon, and Empyreans have a Occassionally deals Severe damage aftermath.
And I think that each of these buffs should be in a separate buff type, so in theory a player can be buffed with all three types, not having them overwrite each other.

Secondly, I think skillchains need a overhaul. Currently when a player closes a skillchain often times it won't show up in text because of the gear changing this game requires, and I think this needs to be addressed and fixed if possible so it always shows up in the chat log.

Third, I think that once a Empyrean, Relic or Mythic reaches the afterglow state that the base damage on the weapon should be increased by half in order to make them more appealing. I think relic, Empyreans and Mythic owners deserve at least that.

On another note once a player has the afterglow effect of a weapon it only buffs everyone else in the party when they use it, (they no longer receive the aftermath effect of the weapon), Which I think each player should receive the effect of the weapon especially the user.

In Conclusion, it takes a long time for afterglows to be completed and I think that Square enix should give us the option of how we want to play, rather then forcing us into the latest content because its the only way your going to make any friends in game.

I really miss Tanaka, Allthough I like some of the things Matsui is trying to do (make Paladins more relevent ect..) so I wish we could have a balance of these two developers rather then all the way one way or the other.

[Shirai]

I'm disregarding the entire discussion as I only have one simple question which requires a simple yes or no.
The question is as follows:

Wil the (level 99) Relic/Empyrian/Mythic weapons' base damage eventually be scaled to match these new, overly powerful weapons?
Yes or no?

Please do not come back with any of that cryptic nonsense of "how delicate the situation is" or "how undermanned the development team is".
I, and I think a lot of us simply want a simple yes or no.

[Mirage]

Yes

/tenchar

[Monchat]

Firstly, afterglows overwrite any aftermath effect a player may currently have regardless of the type. Which I think needs to be fixed.


its the converse. any aftermath overrides afterglow.



On another note once a player has the afterglow effect of a weapon it only buffs everyone else in the party when they use it, (they no longer receive the aftermath effect of the weapon),


not true either. When I use victorysmite I get my aftermath, my pt members that use shijin spiral get an afterglow, and my pt members that use victorysmite get their aftermath.

[Kaeviathan]

Greetings everyone,

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui about level 99 relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes weapons.




He also follows up on a player's comment, which I've summarized below:

Awwwww Yeeeaaaah!!!!
I'm intrigue to having access to these weapon skills and be able to utilize it via other weapons.
I like the idea of having to use Jishnu's Radiance with my relic bow. Also it will be nice to use Tachi: Fudo once i'm able to obtain my mythic great katana (not sure how i'll make that possible, but it's listed as my top achievement in the game!).

By the way, is there any idea on implementing any upgrades on other Magian Trial weapons? My Double attack katana will be sad if i part ways with it ; ;

[Monchat]

Wil the (level 99) Relic/Empyrian/Mythic weapons' base damage eventually be scaled to match these new, overly powerful weapons?
Yes or no?


its clear to me that they have no intention to do so, or they would have clearly said it. We had two Matsui posts about it though, both are so confusing as hell... "we are going to make REM relevant by doing nothing about them"..

[Byrth]

Cross-post because I'm lazy:

Looking at SE's decision to increase R/M damage (the absurd Magian trials were in the game on the day of the cap increase) and their decision to re-vamp the events that generate Relic/Mythics (Salvage, Einherjar, Dynamis, Nyzul Isle) and use Empyreans to drive activity in new events (Abyssea/Voidatch), and I think that anyone would conclude SE undeniably and intentionally made the superiority of RMEs a design principle when deciding which content to add and how to motivate players to do it.

If they want to abandon this principle then that's okay I guess, but they can't act surprised when there's massive push back because they clearly wasted the efforts of their playerbase. I mean, don't shit yourself. People put hundred of grindy quasi-boring Dynamis hours post-patch into making their Guttlers because they wanted a weapon that would be the best (or close) for BST. That's clearly what they thought they were getting, and it's obvious from the events they chose to re-vamp and their decision to raise RM from 75 to 99 that SE understood this. Now SE has effectively gone back on this, so it makes sense for the BSTs to be pissed.

Here is how I see it:
* I make a lot of gil and got to use my RMEs at 99 for more than a year (iirc), so I'm not really that pissed about having to walk to the next goal line. I didn't expect it, but I'm willing to adapt.
* I am not pissed that the pants I spent about 175M on a few weeks before the patch got outdated. I expected it.
* I am pissed that the new weapons I'm aiming for are incredibly boring compared to the ones I have. Terpsichore does things for the dancer job (+1 FM, makes Pyrrhic Kleos a viable WS and thus indirectly increases Darkness damage, maintaining AM3 is equal parts fun and annoying, etc.) that neither of the new weapons do, but there are no situations where it might be useful now due to the extreme DPS difference between it and the other knives. Now the goal is to get the two new knives and use Exenterator over and over.
* I do definitely understand how livid more casual players that recently completed their first RME to 99 might be.
* I think this is a bum move on SE's part.



As far as the "some armor takes a lot of effort but still gets outdated!" argument, SE has a history of outdating armor sets. Morrigan's Cuffs (with set bonus) replaced Zenith Mitts +1. It's totally reasonable to expect something else will some day replace Morrigan's as well. Barring some oddities and game-design fail, the only thing that ever competed with Relics were Mythics or Empyreans and we were given substantial advance warning before the introduction of each of them. Also, it was always "competes." It was never "crushes into obscurity." This is definitely "crushes into obscurity."

[Shirai]

its clear to me that they have no intention to do so, or they would have clearly said it. We had two Matsui posts about it though, both are so confusing as hell... "we are going to make REM relevant by doing nothing about them"..

It's the exact same I'm reading right now.
Cryptic nonsense and answers left open to interpretation.

And let that exact interpretation be the one I am having about it.

And I simply want to know if the weapon I put months of work in for a job I really like playing still has a future.

[Areayea]

1. It's the only plan they were considering.

2. I KNOW I saw a ton of WAR with Ragnarok at 90-95 cap. Why? I can only assume for the Crit mods, which I don't seem to quite understand, myself.

It's astonishing how unprovokedly rude, and wrong, by the way, you are. There were better ways you could've worded that, but you went the easy, belligerent route. Go you!

twas a good nap :O, anyway regarding this... I dont count any real relics unless they pre abyssea... but wayyyyyy back then every single war worked for Bravura... PLDs only wanted Aegis (and before that they liked the rags, but usually didn't build them), every single dark and their mom's dream was of an apocalypse.... and yes Claustrums were still relavent; but nobody really wanted a ragwag until resolution came out/they already had another relic to fall back on. <3 u Kojo just pointing out abyssea/neo everything flipped the game to O.O values;

regarding my last post, about en masse recruiting casual players... unless you have ever done any sales, then you wouldn't know this... QUANTITY IS BETTER THAN QUALITY; yes you may have people who stick around for years, but if you have a few people who come and go (yes I know a ton as well) either way you get paid, so while your logic is that the longevity of players is what holds the "balance" that's not necessarily true... if EVERYONE in this forums who's complained unsubbed... there would still be a ton of casual players left because they don't pay attention/are happy there is actually an achievable powerful thing TO do stuff with, it's more like a reset button if anything, but yes again I do agree they should fix R/E/Ms just by increasing damage, was just playing devils advocate... and explaining how SALES work... SE horrifically needs to work on their marketing >.>

[Zhronne]

I only wish Matsui himself could read your post, Byrth.
And I wish they could have planned things ahead instead than done things with this "Let's make some huge changes now, we'll think about the consequences later" attitude, that it's the same that welcomed the launch of abyssea and it took them 2 years to "fix" that.
I mean "we'll think about something"? What is this exactely? When you introduce changes of this magnitude you are SUPPOSED to have a clear path in your mind already! This is not an opensource free2play game. It's something you pay to get and it also has a monthly fee.
Yet we players are so blind and so addicted that we'll never do something real about it. We just whine, we barf, but then keep paying the monthly fee. They know this, and take advantage of it.

Wasn't Matsui the same person who invented Abyssea?
Wasn't Matsui the same person who claimed Abyssea to be an error?
Wasn't Mautsi the same person who did the same identical error again by making FFXI a SoA-focused game making everything else outdated and worthless?

Someone please explain the logic behind this. How will a game designer explain these choices to the SE shareholders assembly?

[Areayea]

@zhronne: Abyssea was tanaka logic; and now tanaka is gone after his 10 years on the XI project... he was released because of that error and failure to remedy it, Akhiko may have a remedy eventually for now as things stand, who knows what will happen.

[Kojo]

@zhronne: Abyssea was tanaka logic; and now tanaka is gone after his 10 years on the XI project... he was released because of that error and failure to remedy it, Akhiko may have a remedy eventually for now as things stand, who knows what will happen.

Tanaka stepped down due to health related reasons, or so we were told.

[xiozen]

Awwwww Yeeeaaaah!!!!
I'm intrigue to having access to these weapon skills and be able to utilize it via other weapons.
I like the idea of having to use Jishnu's Radiance with my relic bow. Also it will be nice to use Tachi: Fudo once i'm able to obtain my mythic great katana (not sure how i'll make that possible, but it's listed as my top achievement in the game!).

By the way, is there any idea on implementing any upgrades on other Magian Trial weapons? My Double attack katana will be sad if i part ways with it ; ;

Yay for fa·ce·tious -ness...

[Zhronne]

@zhronne: Abyssea was tanaka logic
Nononono.
Tanaka was the game producer at the time, but he was just a name put there, he was focused on FFXIV.
I'm 100% sure there was another person who had the Abyssea idea and he was praised for that, I also remember official messages (one from Tanaka?) introducing his works.
He was just the "team leader" not the game producer or overall supervisor; that role was still Tanaka's, at least in theory, because in reality I highly doubt Tanaka did anything in FFXI at the time, not even supervising things.
But that's just my conjecture of course.

On the other hand I'm starting to think that the re-balancement timeline that took them several years to complete (Dynamis, Limbus, Salvo2, Einherjar2 etc) was Tanaka's idea, and Matsui didn't create that, he just followed that path and completed something started by someone else (Tanaka).
Again, this is just another conjecture of mine based on absolutely nothing if not "impressions" and "feelings".



Akhiko may have a remedy eventually for now as things stand, who knows what will happen.
He may have a remedy for the consequences of a choice that he took?
Uhm... if anything I'm more scared by the superficiality of someone who would take such choices in a lighthearted way, without thinking of the consequences, and then saying "we're trying to find a solution, maybe we'll find one".
Ehr what?
This is not a small change, this is a huge change, anybody who understands how this game works, even a little, would easily understand that as well.
If you allow such a change to happen without a clear path/idea in your mind (and their latest post clearly showed they had none and were naively hoping only a small bunch of people would have complained) then you cannot gain my trust in your abilities to correctly run this game.

Sorry for being blunt, but this is how I feel atm.
And I can't call myself biased because judging from the last 1+ years of work I always said that, despite them being insanely slow and doing some mistakes here and there, I was really happy with the direction they were bringing the game to and with the "hard" choices they were forced to make.

[Zhronne]

Tanaka stepped down due to health related reasons, or so we were told.
Since when does a japanese company say that they're removing one of their lead person because they have been judged inadeguate for the role? Of course that was just a politically correct excuse.

Tanaka isn't so ill if he was able to join another game company a few weeks later, spilling some very bitter words about SE (showing some repressed resentment).
But it goes way beyond just the FFXI matter.
Tanaka is probably agry at SE first because they "forced" him to release an incomplete FFXIV, secondly because they "forced" him to step down from FFXIV, and lastly because he was practically forced to step down from "FFXI".

To be honest I am unable to say how much FFXI got fucked up because of Tanaka's lack of skills, or because the game was left in someone else's hands while he was busy with FFXIV.
Maybe a bit of both, who knows. At this point, does it even matter to ponder ourselves with such a question? I don't think so.

[Areayea]

Nononono.
Tanaka was the game producer at the time, but he was just a name put there, he was focused on FFXIV.
I'm 100% sure there was another person who had the Abyssea idea and he was praised for that, I also remember official messages (one from Tanaka?) introducing his works.
He was just the "team leader" not the game producer or overall supervisor; that role was still Tanaka's, at least in theory, because in reality I highly doubt Tanaka did anything in FFXI at the time, not even supervising things.
But that's just my conjecture of course.

On the other hand I'm starting to think that the re-balancement timeline that took them several years to complete (Dynamis, Limbus, Salvo2, Einherjar2 etc) was Tanaka's idea, and Matsui didn't create that, he just followed that path and completed something started by someone else (Tanaka).
Again, this is just another conjecture of mine based on absolutely nothing if not "impressions" and "feelings".



He may have a remedy for the consequences of a choice that he took?
Uhm... if anything I'm more scared by the superficiality of someone who would take such choices in a lighthearted way, without thinking of the consequences, and then saying "we're trying to find a solution, maybe we'll find one".
Ehr what?
This is not a small change, this is a huge change, anybody who understands how this game works, even a little, would easily understand that as well.
If you allow such a change to happen without a clear path/idea in your mind (and their latest post clearly showed they had none and were naively hoping only a small bunch of people would have complained) then you cannot gain my trust in your abilities to correctly run this game.

Sorry for being blunt, but this is how I feel atm.
And I can't call myself biased because judging from the last 1+ years of work I always said that, despite them being insanely slow and doing some mistakes here and there, I was really happy with the direction they were bringing the game to and with the "hard" choices they were forced to make.

YES I HATE YOU FOR BEING HONEST... no it's ok, that's why we can have opinions, and I do understand how you feel; I have thought about ulterior hidden agendas, however it doesn't make sense that they would make the stockholders angry by destroying the 1 mega source of income (esp. before the XIV project is ready...)... and i think we've talked on ffxiah forums, so of course I'll value your opinion;

Looking at things tho, I think he took a chance on this for something, now I'm not sure if that chance is going to be worth it or not... from the looks of things in the forums... NO, /ragequitters, angry everything... ect.; from the actual game... idk i feel like everything is still normal... I mean you have vw/einherjar/paper farming all still going on as if it's business as usual. so as for the future of things, who knows what's going to happen... all I know is I'm going to keep playing anyone with me can join :P

[Emitremmus]

How about we wait and see what the future holds? It seems like the new content with Delve really needs the big guns to take good advantage of, not to mention the fact that there are zones that we don't have access to yet. There will surely be stronger foes leading up to the last battle, and perhaps they would like us to have that old school sense of challenge and accomplishment with the new weapons that seem so outrageous at first. If a R/E/M is brought up to the same level as these new weapons, along with their additional effects and whatnot, perhaps the new content would be too "EASY MODE".

I have no doubt that R/E/M will be brought up to speed at some point down the line. The ease and access of these new weapons also levels the playing field so that the entire group participating has a better chance of contributing more, rather than holding out for only R/M/E weapons like Voidwatch tends to make players do. I know if I was a developer and I saw people doing content shouting "RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPYREAN WAR ONLY", it would probably make me think about a simliar path that they have decided to take as well.

Let's support them a little better than this, rather than going Syrian rebellion on everything because something that we have the priveledge of owning isn't at its peak right now.

[Zhronne]

Looking at things tho, I think he took a chance on this for something
I still think he did that for a purpose. Probably for more than one.
Read many hypothesys but none really make sense to me.
Only thing that could remotely make sense to me is the following.

If RME are the paragon of excellence, the "roof" of stats, they can't introduce new weapons in game, and even if they do, very little players will care about them (if not for secondary jobs etc).
The "RME = Roof" paradigm could work at the time when only a very small % of players had one.
But since they allowed the large majority to own at least one (in most cases more than one) this can no longer work and hence this creates problems in their planning of new stuff.

Going along these lines, he probably considers it to have been a mistake to have allowed such a diffusion of RME weapons, which also created the annoying clichè of being required to have a mandatory RME to even being considered for PUG etc.
Just like he said, this is a very very delicate issue, things have been rotting for so long that it's a bit "too late" to address this issue. Whatever you do, people who obtained those weapons are going to get angry.

His "solution" to this is adding other weapons, easier (arguably) to obtain that are not just a bit more powerful than the previous ones, but ENORMOUSLY so, with a huge gap.
In my opinion this is an AWFUL solution to the initial issue.
The development team spent so much time into revamping old content and having a parallel progression model rather than a linear progression model has always been one of the typical traits of FFXI.
Turning FFXI into a "single event MMO" didn't work quite well for Abyssea (in the long run), why are they doing this again turning FFXI into a "SoA event MMO"? Why couldn't SoA stuff be just one of the many things we players can do? Maybe the one we do most, but ONE of those?

Now we're soon (too early now) be forced to just go on in endless, boring, grindy sessions of Bayld farming to get 100k KIs that will allow us to do a fight for a small chance to get a drop, or endlessly cleaving mobs to farm skirmish items, or Delve etc.
Under this light and under the naivity of their recent mistakes, the future of FFXI looks all but promising to me.