Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

[BurnNotice]

How funny would it be if heavy metal plates were supposed to drop from voidwalker nms this whole time and the developers just didn't know it was never put in.

That would hilarious but at the same time upsetting. In any case, the drop rate would had to be increase and all the items presenting a chance to drop from those voidwalker nms for anyone wanting to pursue them again.

In response to Grekumah's comment, using the login points for those items sounds good in theory, but unfortunately that will not work at all. There's been discussions on the type of items available and duration of the login campaigns that wasn't pleasant. Also, it will just aggravate the situation more. The players don't mind putting in the work to build their weapons, but you have to keep in mind that it is a lot more work and time than it needs to be. Obtaining 1500 HMPs, and 60 Riftdross/Riftcinders with the current drop rate and availability prevents us from completing our weapons.

If you can pull the numbers, you will notice there are way too many players with empyrean weapons across all servers that have not passed lvl 90 since the day they've reached. We are talking these same people who've been looking forward to upgrade their weapons for years because of the availability of items and drop rate. This is a real issue that inhabiting players to from enjoying the full environment of the game and access of items to help with our adventures and achievements in Vana'diel. Please advise the development team for a solutions to help us come closer in achieving the players goals in completing our weapons. Thank you.

PS: It would be best to implement a solution before or with the RME upgrade that is coming soon.

[Fae]

I will remain ever curious.
While my Nirvana has little to worry about, I do kinda hope for my Spharai to get a major improvement as they have been outclassed by several other non-RME options in the recent past. Quite severely to add.
As I invested a lot of time and gil in those too, I do hope my Golden Fists of PAIN will be deserving of that name again.

I'm all for balance and Spharai being great, please however don't sell SMN's only ultimate weapon that boosts avatar stats short. While it is currently best for physical pacts and flaming crush it is entirely outclassed by staves with a lot of pet mab for magic pacts, and our physical pacts outside of flaming crush on lower level targets have very hard times doing DD like damage and they were at one time SMN's best pacts. I just worry that if you say it's fine, devs might take that to heart and SMN would be left far behind indeed with these upgraded REM other jobs are getting. My fear is they don't increase the avatar aspect of nirvana much, and only increase its melee stats so I really wanted to speak up in that regard. The time and gil sink of a mythic is crazy, it should be the ultimate staff for all situations if not most but with magic burst strategies common, and flaming crush so hard to have an entire party setup for on high level content that it can be not even doable, equipping nirvana seems a solo low level thing mostly and the end game balance of SMN and where it sits could well be determined by what stats the devs put on it, so lets hope ALL jobs get a good update and are relevant with their weapons.

[Shirai]

I think you misunderstand, what I mean is that they can hardly screw Nirvana up.
By itself the weapon already is insane, any improvement only makes it more badass. Sure, there are weapons that are able to "touch" the level of Nirvana but there are none that beat it and to make such a weapon needs incredible luck or a dedicated investment you'd also put into a relic.

Spharai, like other weapons, on the other hand have been stomped and spat on and thrown aside by mere BCNM drops.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

Fear not, the upgrades to Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Ergon weapons are still coming! The development team is not only adding stat upgrades, but also making event-related adjustments (not quests, but text-related to upgrading), and adjustments to certain Aftermaths.

This work will take a bit more time, but it is underway!

If i'm overstepping or over speaking by this has been already implemented and mentioned with a solid reply with it, please let me know after this point thanks!!:eek:

?-So Grekumah would this ever include all of those job artifact weapons becoming 99 first, plus adding a I-level weapon's symbol with better stats past anything original on them to make it a far better usable weapon again which as far as to my knowledge never been touched after their obtainations from AF 1 start's into being put into moogle slips of an artifact storage or by some players simply dropped but easily be Obtainable again if this comes about into becoming a reality? I suppose they could be made to become an I-Level weapon without bringing it first to a lv.99 version becoming an I-Level Lv.99 Weapon, correct?

[dasva]

how about adjusting a few one the WSs too, like how Atonement is still super weak, and you can't say its a reliable source of damage because since it was added there are many mobs that will erase hate and make the WS do very little dmg or nothing at all.

Even with capped enmity it doesn't do that much. On top of that they also added a bunch of mobs with bdt to lower it's dmg and when they greatly increased the enmity it basically made us have to get twice the enmity for the same amount of as before dmg instead of letting us do even more with more enmity

[Fae]

I think you misunderstand, what I mean is that they can hardly screw Nirvana up.
By itself the weapon already is insane, any improvement only makes it more badass. Sure, there are weapons that are able to "touch" the level of Nirvana but there are none that beat it and to make such a weapon needs incredible luck or a dedicated investment you'd also put into a relic.

Spharai, like other weapons, on the other hand have been stomped and spat on and thrown aside by mere BCNM drops.

I agree Spharai has had it far worse. I disagree with your statements on the power level and balance of Nirvana however, and did not misunderstand.

I feel it is lackluster, for all but physical pacts. Flaming Crush damage can be close with Espiritus, Keraunos or Grioavolr and for magical pacts Griovoalr > Espiritus > Keraunos > Nirvana. Now, on CLVL 125 creatures physical pacts are fine. Once you start getting higher though, not only do DD stop being used much, but mana burn parties are the norm and I hope this update can help fix that. Without a full support team for your SMN with nirvana or boosting +100 to all stats with 1 hour, you will not be doing physical pacts or utilizing your nirvana. In Escha zones you can raise that a bit higher due to vorseals but you aren't going to be doing t2 and possibly some t1 with nirvana physical pacts without good support and/or using 1 hour for +100 to all stats. You are going to be magic bursting, unless you use that bug which doesn't work for everyone so I'm not going to include it (and imo balance should never depend on some found bug and the boost you can obtain is very tiny).

Now if you disagree that's fine, but I'm going to quote a hard statement of fact here quoting a post you yourself made on another site regarding heavenly strike:


Setup 1:
BP Delay set with Nirvana, BP set with Nirvana.
1. 8058
2. 8058
3. 8058

Setup 3:
BP Delay set with Keraunos, BP set with Keraunos.
1. 8686 (Well I'll be! Let's do that again!)
2. 8686
3. 8686

It doesn't seem to me that Nirvana is merely "touched" it is surpassed. This is old info, since then SMN has had two staves come out that beat Keraunos, which in another post you claim to use on flaming crush instead of nirvana. It doesn't take nearly what it takes to make a relic to augment Keraunos, but why would you wish to? Espiritus drops a lot, and is not overly hard to obtain at all and is random augment free and the cost of getting on is very small, even free if you farm the UNM too. Griovalr while a bit tougher to get, and deals with random augs, won't break the bank like Keraunos does. So it seems to me Nirvana could easily be "screwed up" (thought I prefer to say left behind because that's what it'd do), if they don't boost the only real good physical bp staff we have when they boost the DD REM skill levels and other parts. Nirvana is already very situationally useful, it's a great use, but it isn't what I feel a mythic should be for the time sunk into it, it should be the ultimate staff, not something you put away when Teles, Kirin v2, and the Warder of Courage (Ultimate Virtue v2) and other big bads rear their ugly heads. That damage difference on magic bursts will be 3x as large, on top of that level correction has no part in magic damage, and with food and geo debuffs, any magic accuracy boon you might gain (and it is a big might as you can get a lot of magic acc on some of these pet mab staves) from nirvana is all but moot. This comparison is also using the oldest and worst case Keraunos, for Espiritus and Griovalr it is simply an even bigger issue.

I just think this case needs made, there's not a ton of SMN out there and it's faced a lot of discrimination ever since the nerf on Perfect Defense. It's finally starting to get in a good place again, if all the other REM are boosted and Nirvana is left in its very much less than satisfactory state I fear that discrimination SMN players fought so hard against will once again be the norm. So please don't say nirvana can't be left behind or doesn't need help at all, as I said you have to put it away for hard mobs. That doesn't feel like the time and effort spent making one is justified at all and unless physical damage strats become prevalent on hard content AND nirvana physical pacts can compete with magic burst damage on that same hard content then Nirvana remains a low level fun toy, not useful beyond t1 Reisenjima and that should not be the case. Of course if all that fails, SMN could fall back on their support capabilities. But oh wait, Nirvana doesn't help that either... Espiritus does with Summoning skill augment, or the new staff you can get from killing the NM you can fish up in Reisenjima.

I like mythics, I just feel they should live up to their promise as well, the ultimate weapon for the job you get them on because unlike relics, aeonics, and empyrean they only can be equipped by one job and if you're rich it's not something you can just buy into either there is a lot of questing involved. All that is as it should be, but Nirvana isn't it should be relevant for end game content one way or another. While I appreciate your input, I know you quit a while, so please don't say Nirvana's update needs no attention and is very hard to get wrong. All jobs update should get equal attention and balance the jobs they were made for and again I hope they are all good updates in that sense. I felt that case had to be made, because that update will effect not just you, but everyone who plays SMN in one way or another and there's not any bandwagoners only people passionate about the job. The bandwagon is most nuking jobs at the moment. It seems every other person in our LS is getting job points on and gearing either BLM or SCH sometimes both, and many of them have DD jobs they are passionate about but hardly get to play, and many have a back pocket GEO or WHM or both because that's what it takes to function in todays ffxi world. SMN is recognized for its 1 hour potential but nothing more. BLM and SCH will beat your burst damage because they can do it more often, and BST zerg is still superior to SMN in maybe all but a few niche situations. There's people for every job passionate about it and pushing its limits, sadly you see them using espiritus and I'm sure soon Griovoalr on the hard fight videos and clears. It's cool to see a SMN 1 hour a t1, using nirvana. Sure. You can't do that on t2 Reisenjima and not on t3 in other zones and not on anything 130 or above outside escha and magic burst strategies will never use nirvana unless it get a lot more bp dmg or it gets pet mab added to it, or both.

I think that all jobs updates should consider balance of the jobs in question, and making sure that it is really the ultimate weapon for a job (i.e. usable even in the most end game content and puts the job on an entirely other level than a player without one). Nirvana definitely hasn't fit that bill for a long time now and as you said other jobs had it worse, (though most DD with am3 up still did better than any other weapon option). I hope SE's balance and update professionals will take each REM update into consideration carefully and consider the meta game and balance of each job, as well as make these ultimate weapons actually that. All that said, I'd be somewhat a hypocrite to spotlight SMN more in this thread but it's a case I strongly feel needed to be brought to attention.

[Ghost2k4]

Without a full support team for your SMN with nirvana or boosting +100 to all stats with 1 hour, you will not be doing physical pacts or utilizing your nirvana. In Escha zones you can raise that a bit higher due to vorseals but you aren't going to be doing t2 and possibly some t1 with nirvana physical pacts without good support and/or using 1 hour for +100 to all stats. .

Uhh... I use Physical pacts even on T3s. T1s and T2s I've duoed/Trioed many times w/o ever touching Astral Flow. There is only T1/2 NMs in any of the Escha zones that I refrain from using physical on and that is more of a support and that is the tonberry which I hold out for Thunderspark to wipe his clones. No one hour needed for any of them. The mimic sucks, but still use Volt Strike for stuns and Shock Squall if he is doing Death Trap. On ffxiah I posted a picture of Flaming Crush doing capped damage into a capped damage fragmentation. The only buff going at the time was a beast roll. yes, its only a 119 in Zi'tah, but I've done capped light many times w/ 70-80k FCs in sky on T1s w/ just a SCH with me. No buffs. Astral Flow is not needed.

Anything 132 and below I can use physical pacts w/o support and have capped acc. Once 135 starts I like to have support, it just sucks trying to do it w/o, but it is doable. Again w/o AF. Honestly I can say the only time I ever seem to AF is if I use AC right after or for the random PD/altana's favor.

[Mnejing]

We are currently busy preparing for monthly updates in the run-up to April, including a version update slated for February, which will introduce new augments for Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Ergon weapons.
Source: http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/14420/detail.html

[Dieth]

Fear not, the upgrades to Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Ergon weapons are still coming! The development team is not only adding stat upgrades, but also making event-related adjustments (not quests, but text-related to upgrading), and adjustments to certain Aftermaths.

This work will take a bit more time, but it is underway!

From today's post: http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/14420/detail.html



We are currently busy preparing for monthly updates in the run-up to April, including a version update slated for February, which will introduce new augments for Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Ergon weapons.

We do not want random augments, we want the straight up damage adjustments as revealed here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlWMHIFUj0k&feature=player_detailpage#t=1945)

[Camate]

Greetings,

I have a bit more to add about the upcoming enhancements.

After enhancing Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons via the new upgrade path, an afterglow effect will be applied to each one.

The first reason for this is to enable future expansion of this content. The afterglow effect on weapons is tied to the completion of Trials of the Magians, and the data for these quests are stored directly on the weapon itself. This data record occupies the same space as that of the weapons’ stat expansion, and in the event you haven’t completed Trials of the Magians (i.e. have not obtained an afterglow), it would not be possible to increase the weapon stats or expand on the special properties.

The second reason is to reduce the time and resources for enhancements. When looking into enhancements for these weapons, we found that if we were to split them into two groups (those with afterglow and those without), it would require a higher amount of resources, which would cause the development time to increase. In order to avoid this from happening, we decided to adopt the current plan that we are moving forward with.

If you already have a weapon with an afterglow effect, you will have an advantage as the next phase for enhancement will be easier to accomplish. On the other hand, those that do not have an afterglow will have quite a challenge ahead of them.

The development team is working hard on adjustments so that they can implement this content, so please stay tuned for more details!

[Mnejing]

So no afterglows for ergon weapons? Will ergon's upgrade path be as hard?

[Shirai]

Ergons don't have an Afterglow to begin with, but don't stop asking for it I'd say.
I do find it very interesting that Camate is hinting possibly at even more future adjustments to these weapon lines.

[Riggs]

o great, so basically your saying go farm 250 marrows before you can progress while everyone on the sever is going to be doing the same thing!! because SE are too greedy to put another programmer on the team.

[bungiefanNA]

No, he's saying that you can complete the quest without afterglow, but it will have a higher amount of items needed or another difficulty modifier, like reforging Artiface/Relic/Empyrean armor has two differnt costs depending on if you do it from a fully +1/+2ed piece or not. Someone that has already done the grind for an afterglow will have an easier quest for the REM upgrade and someone who hasn't, but you won't be required to do the afterglow first. It's a reasonable expectation, rather than them making double the quests so you could add an afterglow at any point, and double the item entries in the database to have aferglow and non-afterglow versions of each intermediate weapon in the new path.

[Belmonts]

What confuses me is that since Camate is saying that the two ramifications of weapons (with and without afterglow) will end up together at some point, it means that all the final R/E/M weapons version will have afterglow?, or afterglow will be lost when ppl upgrade their weapon?

[Kyte]

It's not that confusing.


After enhancing Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons via the new upgrade path, an afterglow effect will be applied to each one.

[Riggs]

No, he's saying that you can complete the quest without afterglow, but it will have a higher amount of items needed or another difficulty modifier, like reforging Artiface/Relic/Empyrean armor has two differnt costs depending on if you do it from a fully +1/+2ed piece or not. Someone that has already done the grind for an afterglow will have an easier quest for the REM upgrade and someone who hasn't, but you won't be required to do the afterglow first. It's a reasonable expectation, rather than them making double the quests so you could add an afterglow at any point, and double the item entries in the database to have aferglow and non-afterglow versions of each intermediate weapon in the new path.

ok i guess i mis read that then, thanks for clearing it up. it seems fair enough to me that we without the afterglow would have to do more

[JovialRat]

ok i guess i mis read that then, thanks for clearing it up. it seems fair enough to me that we without the afterglow would have to do more

Just wait for what they have planned...might have to give up a first born child...or your soul

[Kincard]

I have mixed feelings about the announcement. The prospect of shiny new stats on the weapons through opening the augmenting slot is very interesting, but anybody who has looked into it will know that obtaining an afterglow is an insanely difficult-to-achieve goal. Making it so that any weapons going beyond +242 skill have Afterglow will only result in one of two situations:

1. The difference between the two paths (non-afterglow and afterglow) will be close to or as crazy as the original Trial to obtain an afterglow (which varies greatly in difficulty anyway, because Empyrean afterglows are nearly impossible to obtain), and the vast majority of RME owners will just not bother.

2. The difference between the two paths is large, but not nearly as large as what the original Afterglow trial, and anybody who bothered doing the Afterglow Trial before now will be annoyed.

Afterglow was always a fluff goal, mostly there for obtaining a unique graphical effect on your character nobody else has. I'm aware it has a sphere buff attached to it but I doubt a single Afterglow owner in existence right now obtained it for that buff. I think a vanity item like that being barred behind some crazy grind wall should stay that way- nobody's ever been denied a party because they didn't have an afterglow. This is without mentioning the fact that imagining seeing lots of afterglows running around looks kinda silly.

I think what the dev team is currently planning won't satisfy anyone by the way. The Afterglow trial is so absurdly time consuming that even half of it would seem absurd to most players.

After thinking about it for a while, I have a couple possible ways of dealing with this.

1. Keep both an afterglow and a non-afterglow version of each RME for the future, but untie the non-afterglow version from Trials of the Magian so that the non-afterglow can get whatever expansions in the augmented item stat space the devs were/are planning. In other words, once you upgrade beyond the +242 skill stage, obtaining an afterglow will no longer be possible. I'm pretty sure if someone isn't planning on working on the afterglow trial right now, they will not mind in the least that they won't be able to in the future.

2. Add one last stage where getting Afterglow through Trials of the Magians is available, (so no silly upgrade cost gap on this stage) and simultaneously add another quest where the two paths merge with the idea you're planning right now, opening the door for the future augmenting plan. Right now a lot of people are frustrated because they haven't been able to use their RMEs for months, and having a simple upgrade to the next stage so they can use it in Reisenjima for a while can calm peoples' nerves. How effective this idea would work depends on what the dev team has planned for the hypothetical freed augmenting space- if it's going to be stuff like "Attack +5" I don't think people will care that much.

3. Just keep the system the way it was before. It would prevent the addition of new stats, sure, but it's not like you can't make them decent weapons by playing with the stats they already have. (Or by replacing/overhauling useless ones like the Murgleis Convert Augment)

[Atomic_Skull]

From today's post: http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/14420/detail.html



We do not want random augments, we want the straight up damage adjustments as revealed here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlWMHIFUj0k&feature=player_detailpage#t=1945)

Anyone have a translation of those stats?

[Fae]

Uhh... I use Physical pacts even on T3s. T1s and T2s I've duoed/Trioed many times w/o ever touching Astral Flow. There is only T1/2 NMs in any of the Escha zones that I refrain from using physical on and that is more of a support and that is the tonberry which I hold out for Thunderspark to wipe his clones. No one hour needed for any of them. The mimic sucks, but still use Volt Strike for stuns and Shock Squall if he is doing Death Trap. On ffxiah I posted a picture of Flaming Crush doing capped damage into a capped damage fragmentation. The only buff going at the time was a beast roll. yes, its only a 119 in Zi'tah, but I've done capped light many times w/ 70-80k FCs in sky on T1s w/ just a SCH with me. No buffs. Astral Flow is not needed.

Anything 132 and below I can use physical pacts w/o support and have capped acc. Once 135 starts I like to have support, it just sucks trying to do it w/o, but it is doable. Again w/o AF. Honestly I can say the only time I ever seem to AF is if I use AC right after or for the random PD/altana's favor.

With respect, you read through my post more carefully, you'll see we don't disagree. In what was quoted I say without good support OR 1 hours. You claim to use physical pacts using support on 132+. So we don't disagree. Read further in and I clarify CL130 and Reisnejima. CL129 is t1 Reisenjima and t2 is CL135, while sky and zitah t1 are CL119 and t2 are CL125. You say you use physical pacts if you duo/trio or use support. We did 2smn and 2 sch on the t2 harpeia in Reisenjima. One SMN has nirvana the other doesn't. Flaming crush was doing less than 8k and pred claws wasn't performing well either. With the right gear heavenly strike magic bursts were doing 35k, 11k without. If you got say geo and cor, I'm sure you can kill it with nirvana. That becomes less and less true the higher you go though, and it is an uphill battle to show people it is true with as you said pictures of flaming crush 99k to 99k skillchains. You can do that on t1 zitah with minimal support without a nirvana by the way. The truth of it is that on lower level stuff, you can double 99k damage with skillchains and physical pacts, but on higher level stuff that falls off very sharply. Remember when SR came out and it took every support option in the game to make flaming crush perform on a level to compete with other setups? Volt strike takes out the need for lower mdb and magic evasion, but it's not as strong and at some point COR and GEO aren't enough to make you have enough accuracy and attack to compete at best and matter at most, on top of that level correction kicks in more and more (5% for each difference between mobs level and your avatar) until even with nirvana your damage output with physical pacts is very low. On higher level mobs, magic bursting allows you not only to need less support due to its huge increase in magic accuracy, no level correction, and utilize its 3x damage multiplier but it allows sch and geo and blm to burst as well. This is why SMN clear vids of Vir'ava, Kirin, Seiryu and other sky gods, and many other hard fights such as t3 sky when it came out or t3 reisenjima now aren't using Nirvana. Because doing so and winning if possible, is just much harder and in all likeliehood you'll just time out. For the ultimate staff for smn, it shouldn't be put away when the hardest stuff comes out and I hope you can agree. Whether the answer is adding petmab or boosting the amount of bp damage and accuracy/attack enough, it would be good to have this pinnacle staff for smn relevant on these end game mobs and it deserves as much a look at as every other REM, mythic should help you clear such content easier for its time investment, not be put away for something you can obtain in an evening with friends (Espiritus).

[Vold]

The second reason is to reduce the time and resources for enhancements. When looking into enhancements for these weapons, we found that if we were to split them into two groups (those with afterglow and those without), it would require a higher amount of resources, which would cause the development time to increase. In order to avoid this from happening, we decided to adopt the current plan that we are moving forward with.
Heh yeah. I rather you spend that development time on new conten- ....ooooooh. Right.

I think I rather you just take longer and do two paths. I really don't feel like being punished with doing some super expensive and or time consuming quest to upgrade my RMEs yet again because you thought it was a good idea to make people farm 250 marrows for vanity. Seriously, guys. You frickin owe us a bone after all the money and time we've thrown into these weapons that you absolutely insist on not being that great so everyone else can at least try to compete to be able to get party slots. You just remember that before you go and implement a dead quest to everyone but the people that actually did the afterglow trial because they're gluttons for your punishment.

Do not punish me and the vast majority of players because a select few took the time to farm their vanity afterglow. Let us have our easy, semi cheap upgrade path for a change and let aeonics have the spot light as a tradeoff. I don't care, as long as I'm not asked to essentially farm an afterglow because a few people bothered to do it before if I want the best RME possible. That's just BS. I didn't want to do that much farming for a glow effect, and I don't now.

Seriously now, you guys have been "adopting" development paths that best suit you since the start of this game. I just want to point that out. It's never what's best for us, but what's best for you. No one blames you for that, but frankly you owe us a break. Dammit, you owe us for our many years of paying you gobs of money for little dev support in return.

[Zekander]

Not to mention the fact that they already did exactly that when they upgraded them all to 119. There are REM weapons at level 99 with and without Afterglow, and there are level 119 REM weapons with and without Afterglow. So obviously they already bypassed the magian trial flag once.

As for the workload, they could have easily made the quests identical simply with differing rewards, instead they made a conscious decision to force players to farm 250 very rare items in order to even start the upgrade to a usable level.

[Umisame]

From today's post: http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/14420/detail.html



We do not want random augments, we want the straight up damage adjustments as revealed here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlWMHIFUj0k&feature=player_detailpage#t=1945)

If augments means that claustrum can boost pet stats im up for it!

[Catmato]

We do not want random augments, we want the straight up damage adjustments as revealed here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlWMHIFUj0k&feature=player_detailpage#t=1945)
Where did you get the idea that there would be random augments?

[datbig]

Greetings,

I have a bit more to add about the upcoming enhancements.

After enhancing Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons via the new upgrade path, an afterglow effect will be applied to each one.

The first reason for this is to enable future expansion of this content. The afterglow effect on weapons is tied to the completion of Trials of the Magians, and the data for these quests are stored directly on the weapon itself. This data record occupies the same space as that of the weapons’ stat expansion, and in the event you haven’t completed Trials of the Magians (i.e. have not obtained an afterglow), it would not be possible to increase the weapon stats or expand on the special properties.

The second reason is to reduce the time and resources for enhancements. When looking into enhancements for these weapons, we found that if we were to split them into two groups (those with afterglow and those without), it would require a higher amount of resources, which would cause the development time to increase. In order to avoid this from happening, we decided to adopt the current plan that we are moving forward with.

If you already have a weapon with an afterglow effect, you will have an advantage as the next phase for enhancement will be easier to accomplish. On the other hand, those that do not have an afterglow will have quite a challenge ahead of them.

The development team is working hard on adjustments so that they can implement this content, so please stay tuned for more details!

This message is to add my perspective to the conversation. Like so many other adventurers, I have been working hard creating ways to purchase 3000 riftross to add afterglow to my empyrean weapon. I am a solo ffxi gamer, I craft with three fully capped crafting characters, I farm and battle on my three accounts and I do business with High End Linkshells. I meet many hard working solo gamers on the field, many saving up for an afterglow on their weapon. An afterglow would be an ultimate gift to my best friends in battle and also it would help me to get invites in high end battle content easier.

I have worked hard to save 800M and I am closer than ever to my target.

Many solo gamers are unable to battle in static groups because of their personal lives. They have busy professions, they have married lives and are often parents and some gamers might be disabled physically or mentally. My fiancee has multiple sclerosis, I also work. For me to reach the point in ffxi to be close to an afterglow effect has been extremely difficult and time consuming and I have enjoyed every single moment of my quest. I have never made so much gil and it has been amazing rush.

Now I'm left with a dilemma, two choices.
1) Finish my one billion + afterglow before the update
2) wait until after the update and reward high end gamers a few mil to finish this new trial if it is battlefiedl/NM based. . . . .

Square enix have let me down in the past too many times and I simply cant trust them. I gladly reorganized my life around my ffxi aftreglow quest and I at least expect SE to reorganize their lives to come up with a better plan. I am going to hold onto my gil, I'm folding.

They need to create an "Afterglow Moogle" that offers an afterglow quest to any stage of RME.

The creators of Final Fantasy I - X dreamed of a world where people from all cultures could have characters that lived and grew in a fantasy world. Here we are in this apocalyptic - end of game - manipulative hook propaganda.

[Jerbob]

The second reason is to reduce the time and resources for enhancements.
I don't think I fully understand. It sounds like you're pushing an upgrade that no-one (Afterglow users and non-Afterglow users) is going to be happy with because it'll be cheaper and quicker?

I know you guys are super-stretched now, but that seems like a pretty awful idea?

Also, it'd be quite nice if the weapons were upgraded so they actually helped the non-melee jobs that can wield them in the role they'll be playing 95% of the time - though, having seen the Aeonic weapons, it seems that something that still doesn't make sense to the developers. Pretty disappointing really.

[Creelo]

Greetings,

I have a bit more to add about the upcoming enhancements.

After enhancing Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons via the new upgrade path, an afterglow effect will be applied to each one.

The first reason for this is to enable future expansion of this content. The afterglow effect on weapons is tied to the completion of Trials of the Magians, and the data for these quests are stored directly on the weapon itself. This data record occupies the same space as that of the weapons’ stat expansion, and in the event you haven’t completed Trials of the Magians (i.e. have not obtained an afterglow), it would not be possible to increase the weapon stats or expand on the special properties.

The second reason is to reduce the time and resources for enhancements. When looking into enhancements for these weapons, we found that if we were to split them into two groups (those with afterglow and those without), it would require a higher amount of resources, which would cause the development time to increase. In order to avoid this from happening, we decided to adopt the current plan that we are moving forward with.

If you already have a weapon with an afterglow effect, you will have an advantage as the next phase for enhancement will be easier to accomplish. On the other hand, those that do not have an afterglow will have quite a challenge ahead of them.

The development team is working hard on adjustments so that they can implement this content, so please stay tuned for more details!

How is all of this going to work with Ergon weapons, which don't have an Afterglow path?

Is there some kind of currency we should try to be saving/gathering as we approach February?

[Grekumah]

I’d like to answer several of your questions about the upcoming upgrades to Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Ergon weapons.


Now I'm left with a dilemma, two choices.
1) Finish my one billion + afterglow before the update
2) wait until after the update and reward high end gamers a few mil to finish this new trial if it is battlefiedl/NM based. . . . .

Ultimately this is up to you to decide. We can’t provide specific details on the new steps at this time, so waiting for the upgrades to be implemented is completely your decision. As stated previously, players that have already obtained weapons with an afterglow will have an easier time upgrading to the next phase.


I don't think I fully understand. It sounds like you're pushing an upgrade that no-one (Afterglow users and non-Afterglow users) is going to be happy with because it'll be cheaper and quicker?


Players that already took the time to complete the afterglow effect on their weapon(s), will be rewarded by being able to upgrade in an easier manner through a quest.

We estimate that players with afterglow weapons will be able to upgrade within one hour of starting the quest. Even if you didn't spend the time to create a weapon with an afterglow, we're still offering a method to obtain an afterglow and continue the upgrade process on these legendary weapons, but you’ll still have a great task ahead of you.


How is all of this going to work with Ergon weapons, which don't have an Afterglow path?

Is there some kind of currency we should try to be saving/gathering as we approach February?

As you mention, Ergon weapons do not have an afterglow effect. Players seeking to upgrade their Ergon weapon will have to clear a number of objectives along with the other players who do not possess a weapon with an afterglow.

If we were to provide the methods for upgrading Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Ergon weapons this would certainly affect player behavior, and as such, we cannot offer this information yet.

[dasva]

As you mention, Ergon weapons do not have an afterglow effect. Players seeking to upgrade their Ergon weapon will have to clear a number of objectives along with the other players who do not possess a weapon with an afterglow.

If we were to provide the methods for upgrading Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Ergon weapons this would certainly affect player behavior, and as such, we cannot offer this information yet.

If ergon users are going to have to go thru a bunch more work like the non glowers are you going give ergon afterglow though?

[Alhanelem]

Frankly I hated the absurd difficulty of afterglows when the originally came out and had hope they would be nerfed. If it's so extreme that you needed 2 upgrade paths to begin with (e.g. being able to upgrade to afterglow either first or after upgrading non-afterglow to max), it was too much. Knowing that I will need to face some kind of super extreme upgrade path because I didn't have a billion gazillion gil (or enough time on my hands to kill arch dynamis lord 78234683274 times) really puts me off. I shouldn't be forced into doing the work of an afterglow to bring the basic stats of the weapon up to snuff- I already put countless hours into making just the non-afterglow weapon.

Make seperate paths for afterglow and non afterglow, or don't do it at all. Or, make the difficulty the same for everyone and when you're done, award the afterglow or nonafterglow version of an item based on whether or not they had one when you started. I don't understand why this can't be a quest variable instead of part of the item data.

I'm sure everyone here would have gladly waited longer for the fairer method. Am I really far off base here?

[Jerbob]

Exactly. What was the point in providing two paths in the first place if they're going to combine them now? I don't want my weapon to glow, I just want it to be better than a weapon that drops from a mob that costs 50,000 accolades to pop.

Please give us two paths. If I'm going to have to complete a "Great Task" for something I don't actually want then I doubt I'm going to be even remotely motivated to do it.

Appreciate the information updates, Grekumah.

[Ranky]

Originally Afterglow was an option that players had the option of partaking in and was considered to be an activity for a very dedicated individual (considering items needed for any of the Ultimate weapons was 1 drop at a time, 2 if lucky). Now with this update, like many have stated, the "option" has been removed due to a convenience factor for developers still set to program an older game. Not only is this being a factor pushed to everyone, the fact that realistically no information on the upgrade process is given which is completely ridiculous due to affecting "player activity" changing is strictly petty as well. You have a player base who for all intents wants to bring an (or more, as some players have multiple ultimate weapons) item up to snuff for current content, but because the means to make such an upgrade path is conceivably already accessible to the player base you won't release a small insight into the process?

For all intents and purposes it could be the need to obtain Job Master status on a job that can use the weapon and then be able to dump x amount of Job Points into a system similar to the Goblin Pot in Reisenjima. If this was the case, this at least gives players direction to use their time AND maximize current limited time campaigns such as the current CP and EXP boost for chains. (On a side note, I completely believe that this to whatever degree is how the upgrade is going to be implemented, add an item to fetch/KI to get from w/e mob, as otherwise there is no reason at this time to not lock CP from being stored after you hit job master. Just my personal thoughts.) If the upgrade involves obtaining a new item that is determined to drop from newer/older content, just say so...doesn't hurt and in facts it helps reassure player base what route your intentions are headed for the future of the game as well.

Also, considering the fact that afterglow is something everyone who invests the time to go through this top secret process to obtain, maybe outside of just re-working aftermath mechanics on some of the weapon skills you can also implement a more realistic update to the afterglow effect. Instead of being a base 30 second effect bubble, maybe tier the effect like aftermath is implemented. This way it's actually beneficial to players/trusts(if even applicable) and would allow you to overwrite lower level afterglows you may set.

Example: Mythic Afterglow 100tp:+15 attack, 30 sec; 200tp: +30 attack, 1min; 300tp: +45 attack, 1:30min

[Cblade]

So let me get this straight. You are going to force people who have gone through the trials and tribulations to get their REM to 119 to afterglow them to make them useful? An alliance could create an aeonic for each member 6-10 times, meaning 50-near 200 aeonics created due to alliance all getting one if they all did the trials together (based on time required, and depending on trials after the kill all nm's, as I am not sure if there are any/what they are if so; the time I have is based on time to go through all steps to all nm's defeated) before 1 REM gets afterglow (and that is if that 1 REM holder can get help from others to get the items for 119-119 afterglow), and you find this fair? Players who have a 119 REM deserve a free upgrade, but we are willing to do a quest that is reasonable. Afterglows were never reasonable, but that was the point of them. They have always been a vanity item to show off how rich you were for the most part due to the insane requirements for one. REM's already almost got destroyed before being updated with more quests to 99 and above, and many are still weaker than other much more easily obtained weapons. If afterglow is required, there will be nearly 0 rem's being used, and it would be done to save you time? That is not only a horrible business model, but it is a slap in the face of all players, REM holders or not.

[Angemon]

They should separate the trials, afterglow and non-afterglow.

[Shirai]

From what I understand, not entirely.

In the end, all weapons (unsure about the Ergons) will have afterglow, however it will not be a requirement to start the quest.
People that already own an afterglow weapon will have an easier objective in said quest to upgrade their weapons than those that haven't.
As I see it, there's going to be an alternative path for upgrading to Afterglow, however right now they are not disclosing what this path will entail.

As I fear right now there are two scenarios.
- Afterglow owners are going to be feeling betrayed. (Trust me, I have some nastier words in mind.)
- Non-Afterglow owners are not going to bother.

My current expectation is that there are going to be a lot of angry Afterglow owners.

And personally, while I do understand the reasoning, I too feel more for having two seperate paths.

[Vold]

So basically this is the trial for obtaining ultimate RME:

1)Farm afterglow
2)Take 1 hour to upgrade

or

1)Farm afterglow in alternative fashion
2)Take 1 hour to upgrade

So we're being made to farm an afterglow whether we like it or not. Nice. Look, if I cared about glowing weapons I'd still be playing XIV. Take longer and give us the two paths. It's guaranteed to make both non afterglow and afterglow owners happy. There's no reason we both can't take 1 hour to upgrade.

I just want to point out, we aren't objecting to this "do a ton of work" idea. We're objecting to the idea that the 30 afterglow owners get a free ride while we spend who knows how long to catch up because we didn't care to farm or buy 250 marrows for a glow effect. If everyone had to do a ton of work, afterglow or no afterglow, there wouldn't be a problem besides the whole issue of difficulty in comparison to aeonics. Is this not a problem to your JP base? Because I half expected the next word I would hear about it is how you are reconsidering the decision. Apparently the JP are on board for this. God knows you're not going to reconsider squat based on our objections.

[Shirai]

I think it's going to be more like this:

Shiny:
-Bring me 100 [insert whatever SE's planning]

Not shiny:
-Bring me 100.000 [insert whatever SE's planning]

I think however that the "Bring 100.000 [insert whatever SE's planning]" is going to take less than half the effort it takes to do it the intended way.
If SE's going to continue this plan of action they have to, because otherwise the majority will even bother doing it, especially people that own multiple R/E/M weapons.

But I expect that it is going to create some backlash from the people that have an Afterglowed weapon.

[machini]

There is a reason people do not have afterglow, because it's insanely tedious to get, and allows the... perfectionists something to do for bragging rights.

If the amount of work I am going to have to put in to upgrade my mythic to its 'final form' approaches afterglow, then I think that's it right there. Hanging it up, closing my accounts, finding something new to do with my life.

There needs to be a non-afterglow version.

[Rakshaka]

If we were to provide the methods for upgrading Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Ergon weapons this would certainly affect player behavior, and as such, we cannot offer this information yet.

This means that the means to upgrade non-afterglow weapons to afterglow weapons is currently collectible in-game. Or, at the very least, we're able to do some steps in preparation for the update at this time. Some ideas about what we can collect NOW to upgrade this include: potpourri(merit points deposited at the goblin), job points, silt, beads, and Tumult's Blood.

Does anyone have any other ideas about what we could be collecting now for this upgrade?



If the amount of work I am going to have to put in to upgrade my mythic to its 'final form' approaches afterglow, then I think that's it right there. Hanging it up, closing my accounts, finding something new to do with my life.


Or, just don't upgrade it if it's too much work, and keep playing as you always have. Think of this final upgrade not as another free REM upgrade, but as an equivalent of an afterglow upgrade, because that's what it is really. This may very well take as much time and effort as it did to make the original afterglows; don't go into this expecting anything less.

[Cblade]

The fact that player behavior may change is a poor excuse. Aeonics can already be made, so giving a hint as to what trial is needed for rem's for an update 2 months away would most likely help. It would put people's minds at ease about what the trial will be (or cause people to quit, as I and others will most likely do if its stupidly difficult - I am sadly betting on this one being what the player behavior comment was about), but it would allow rem's to catch up to aeonic power more quickly when the update comes out. The last "great challenges" - as the devs have said non-afterglow holders will have - we were given were relics at lvl 75, mythics in general, pandemonium warden when it came out before it was nerfed, etc. That is not a good track record for making people think it will be an accomplishable goal. Giving a hint as to item needed or a quantity needed would most likely calm a lot of the enmity from the player base.

As to the previous post saying to just not upgrade the weapon if it is too difficult, we worked for the weapons and put more blood and sweat into making them than any Aeonic user will most likely know. We were then forced to upgrade them. We were fine with this, even if it wasn't free (which the prior post seems to insinuate). The part we didn't like was the near impossible goal after what we had done of Afterglow. Before it was nerfed, the time requirement was so high it was laughable. That alone sets doubts in the minds of REM holders as to what the last trial is. I sometimes feel that the trials aren't even tested well based on the factor of time. So many trials come out or fights get created where the player base goes, "Did they even test this? What where they thinking?" and then creates a backlash at the devs (and sometimes news stories) until it is "nerfed" (AKA fixed to a reasonable level - although even current afterglow requirements are still not reasonable for the boost they give).

[Rakshaka]

As to the previous post saying to just not upgrade the weapon if it is too difficult, we worked for the weapons and put more blood and sweat into making them than any Aeonic user will most likely know. We were then forced to upgrade them.
My point is, that if the afterglow upgrade was too difficult for you, then you didn't do it. You weren't forced to upgrade your weapon to the afterglow version. Applying that same logic to this situation: if this new upgrade is too difficult for you, simply don't do it. No one's forcing you to do this new upgrade. You don't have to quit the game if this new upgrade is too difficult, just simply do what you did when the afterglow upgrade came out: use the weapon you currently have, and don't upgrade it.



We were fine with this, even if it wasn't free (which the prior post seems to insinuate).
My mistake, not all upgrades were free. When I said this I had the ilvl 119 version upgrades in mind, which are extremely cheap to make.

[machini]

Your point makes no sense, Rakshaka. The reason we didn't do the afterglow upgrade is because there is no difference between our non-afterglow weapons an afterglow weapons except a practically useless buff that we don't even receive.

With the update to 119, there were separate paths for Afterglow and non-Afterglow mythics. I don't have afterglow, not because it's too hard, but simply because it was not worth the effort involved for effectively nothing but bragging rights.

I won't even begin to address what else is wrong.

[Rakshaka]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your point is that you evaluate whether or not the benefit of the upgrade is worth the time spent doing the upgrade, then decide whether or not to do the upgrade based on that. In the case of the original afterglow weapons, you thought that the time spent on the upgrade wasn't worth the benefit involved, so you didn't do the upgrade. But, what if the original afterglow upgrade was a substantial buff to the weapon that still required as much work as the afterglow upgrade? Would you have quit at that point in time?


If the amount of work I am going to have to put in to upgrade my mythic to its 'final form' approaches afterglow, then I think that's it right there. Hanging it up, closing my accounts, finding something new to do with my life.
It sounds like maybe you would have quit? I can't answer that for you, but it's something to keep in mind. In any case, since your method of determining whether or not to upgrade the weapon is based on difficulty vs. reward, then apply that same logic to the upgrades that are coming out in Feb: see how good the upgrades are to your weapon, weigh them against the tasks that you need to perform in order to get the weapon, then make the decision whether or not to upgrade it. I don't understand where the "I'll quit the game if I deem that the upgrade is substantial, but the tasks to get it are too difficult" logic comes from.

Please feel free to address what else is wrong. I like healthy discussions.

[Cblade]

The cost to benefit ratio is something done with all things in the game. The issue is that the afterglow was something that was purposely too difficult to be done by 99% of the player base. It not only was near impossibly hard, but it gave little to no benefit: a glow effect and such a minimal buff it almost can't be detected to party members. This buff is even smaller at 119, but it was something we just laughed at for the absurdity because we could still use our weapons without it. The new update would make our weapons we currently use obsolete compared to Aeonics, despite the fact we have already put more effort into them than it takes to create an Aeonic, unless we do this absurd (or similar) task. If you could create an REM from scratch and it be Aeonic level with the afterglow requirements as the ONLY quest, then it might be more reasonable, but we have had to do quests for years to slowly upgrade them to keep them more useful than newly implemented ah or nm weapons. We have done enough, but are still willing to do a reasonable quest. We are not happy with having to put 3-50x the effort we have put into making the rem all the way to 119 (already multiple times the effort of creating an Aeonic for an entire alliance) again into our rem's in order to have them on par with Aeonics. It is clearly weighted against people using anything other than reisen jse (some better than 119 rem's already) and Aeonic weapons. A slight irony in making rem's take, when taking into account an entire alliance can get an aeonic for every aeonic questline completed, 80-200x the time for completion with the afterglow quest is that the devs said they wanted more weapons to be used. This was one of their reasons behind not upgrading rem's to 119 until so much backlash got them to change their minds. REM's were already almost destroyed despite all the effort, and that alone caused people to quit; however, forcing rem users to do even more quests that alone take 50-150x as long as it takes to get an aeonic from scratch will reduce the number of different weapons being used as rem players will not upgrade. You can't say you want more weapons to be used and then say that the original best weapons must do an originally joke quest due to its absurdity to stay current in order to save time.

The point is that the afterglow quest is already not worth the benefit compared to the difficulty of Aeonics even if it was the only quest. It is, however, not the only quest rem's have had to do. There is also the issue of the excuse for why rem's are being forced into this: "save time and resources." Saving time and resources is never a good excuse to force a player base to do things they quite reasonably should not have to do in order to keep their gear current. The entire issue could be nullified if they would just split the quests as they have in the past. This would not only take little time to do, but even if it took extra time, we would be willing to wait for a finished product. This is most likely the exact thinking that has led the last FF games to be met with such criticism: rush the product through to save time.

[Grekumah]

We can’t provide exact details other than letting you know that the hurdle to upgrade these weapons will be high. You’ll be able to complete the upgrade process by steadily working on your goal over the course of time. Also, not only will you be able to make progress through battle content, it will also be possible to use gil as a way to complete these upgrades.

[Ataraxia]

We can’t provide exact details other than letting you know that the hurdle to upgrade these weapons will be high. You’ll be able to complete the upgrade process by steadily working on your goal over the course of time. Also, not only will you be able to make progress through battle content, it will also be possible to use gil as a way to complete these upgrades.


sound good. :/

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

We can’t provide exact details other than letting you know that the hurdle to upgrade these weapons will be high. You’ll be able to complete the upgrade process by steadily working on your goal over the course of time. Also, not only will you be able to make progress through battle content, it will also be possible to use gil as a way to complete these upgrades.

To Bad not all of us can gil afford it as I'm betting I'm not the only one always broke on gils :(or near nil gils all of the time in the game with all the way things are these days and those shouting back in the opposite direction at me for mentioning this can be expected by a few here. I'm lucky if I reach 200,000 or 300,000 gils or a lot of times just barely 100,000 gils even here, Just saying it Grekumah. :p :o :D :cool:

Although winning first place mog bonanza gils in just the thought of it would be nice.....but any-who's.

[Angemon]

If you can only reach 300k you aren't doing things correctly. Just using your sparks alone you can get 1m from capped sparks and you can get that an endless amount of ways. Not trying to defend how they are doing this but to say you only have around 300k at most times is kinda sad given how this game throws gil at you in practically everything you can think of.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

If you can only reach 300k you aren't doing things correctly. Just using your sparks alone you can get 1m from capped sparks and you can get that an endless amount of ways. Not trying to defend how they are doing this but to say you only have around 300k at most times is kinda sad given how this game throws gil at you in practically everything you can think of.

Then more in details please? What/what item and where or how in what way/methods carried out to reach that end gil goal, plus thanks Ange!

Edit: Also Note a path for that same goals in that amount of gil that can be done in a very short hour or maybe 2 in the very same day, if its possible even too!?

2nd Edit: Well I always save my RoE sparks for only using them on skill up books and tomes but after I always use those sparks on the skillups books/tomes they're gone quickly, Sorry!

[Tidis]

An AR2 run a day alone should get you at least a stack of alexandrite, an easy 600k right there.

[Shirai]

An AR2 run a day alone should get you at least a stack of alexandrite, an easy 600k right there.

Apart from that, you can run Dynamis, which should also net a nice amount of gil.
When there's no campaign going, Walk of Echoes makes an easy living farming coins, dies and residue as those are always in demand.
And even on a lower ilevel that one's very easilly doable, especially since it also allows trusts these days.

And apart from the WoE stuff, selling things shouldn't be too hard either, Dynamis currency and Alexandrite can be sold on AH since the november or december patch.

And sorry to be incredibly blunt here, Yogorock; But if you have so much trouble getting gil, how and why on Vana'diel did you make a legendary weapon?
If you haven't, this doesn't apply to you. (yet) ;)

[shaduf]

Dynamis is a simple fast easy way to get gil

[Jerbob]

We can’t provide exact details other than letting you know that the hurdle to upgrade these weapons will be high. You’ll be able to complete the upgrade process by steadily working on your goal over the course of time. Also, not only will you be able to make progress through battle content, it will also be possible to use gil as a way to complete these upgrades.
Any plans to address the concerns that multiple people have raised re: the lack of choice in creating an afterglow weapon that a significant proportion of players - likely most - don't actually want or need?

[Cblade]

We can’t provide exact details other than letting you know that the hurdle to upgrade these weapons will be high. You’ll be able to complete the upgrade process by steadily working on your goal over the course of time. Also, not only will you be able to make progress through battle content, it will also be possible to use gil as a way to complete these upgrades.

I realize that our worries have most likely fallen on deaf ears, but I guess I will ask one last thing. Does this mean straight gil or items you can buy from the ah? Either way, I see a lot of RMT's happening around February. While I appreciate the cryptic hints you have given us, I would like to ask why the devs think it is fair to subject REM holders to what appears to Aeonic level quests after all of the other quests they have to do just to get to 119. Battle content would appear to mean escha or unity, given the level of the weapon attained. It would then follow that the quest is something akin to the current Aeonic quest line. So REM's have to do everything to get to 119 to then do basically what an Aeonic has to do, while the aeonic only has to do the one quest? If the rem's became stronger by a good margin over aeonics, this would be fair, but you have said that they will be "on par" with Aeonics. Where is the justice here? Do the devs want only the aeonics used, while the original best weapons are sidelined due asinine unfairness?

As a side note, I will admit that maybe we of the player base may be thinking the worst, but quite frankly, the track record gives us little else to hold onto. If it is straight gil that can be used, I'm already calling the 100 million mark as the lowest start, and that is being conservative based on record.

[Mithlas]

I just don't understand why RME holders are subject to a large hurdle to get their weapons current again?
RMEs themselves already take a considerable amount of: time, money, or both, to be able to even get the base weapon. From there, they already take another hurdle to even get to 119. Why does it seem difficult to give players that already own RMEs to be able to easily upgrade to make their weapon equal to Aeonics?

It does not make sense to me.

[Daisansha]

Any plans to address the concerns that multiple people have raised re: the lack of choice in creating an afterglow weapon that a significant proportion of players - likely most - don't actually want or need?

You do have a choice. Do or do not make the weapon.

[Daisansha]

I realize that our worries have most likely fallen on deaf ears, but I guess I will ask one last thing. Does this mean straight gil or items you can buy from the ah? Either way, I see a lot of RMT's happening around February. While I appreciate the cryptic hints you have given us, I would like to ask why the devs think it is fair to subject REM holders to what appears to Aeonic level quests after all of the other quests they have to do just to get to 119. Battle content would appear to mean escha or unity, given the level of the weapon attained. It would then follow that the quest is something akin to the current Aeonic quest line. So REM's have to do everything to get to 119 to then do basically what an Aeonic has to do, while the aeonic only has to do the one quest? If the rem's became stronger by a good margin over aeonics, this would be fair, but you have said that they will be "on par" with Aeonics. Where is the justice here? Do the devs want only the aeonics used, while the original best weapons are sidelined due asinine unfairness?

As a side note, I will admit that maybe we of the player base may be thinking the worst, but quite frankly, the track record gives us little else to hold onto. If it is straight gil that can be used, I'm already calling the 100 million mark as the lowest start, and that is being conservative based on record.


For you to say that it will be an aeonic level quest is ridiculous on your part. Grekumah said you can make progress steadily by battle content and also can make progress by gil. This is not aeonic. Aeonic does not allow steady progress by means of gil. It is get 50k beads, then kill all the pop NMs in each of the three zones. Considering how difficult the aeonic quest is (no one has been able to complete it because it is so difficult), the two quests can't even be compared.

[Daisansha]

I just don't understand why RME holders are subject to a large hurdle to get their weapons current again?
RMEs themselves already take a considerable amount of: time, money, or both, to be able to even get the base weapon. From there, they already take another hurdle to even get to 119. Why does it seem difficult to give players that already own RMEs to be able to easily upgrade to make their weapon equal to Aeonics?

It does not make sense to me.

The quests to make aeonics are not easy, whereas REMs are easy but can require quite a bit of time. Why should you get upgraded to the best weapons in the game with little to no effort? By the sounds of Grekumah's post you will be able to get the upgraded REMs with effort and not almost impossibly difficult content like aeonic weapons making requires.

[Jerbob]

You do have a choice. Do or do not make the weapon.
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I was reflecting on the fact that SE have effectively revoked an existing, very significant choice that was fundamental to the nature of these special weapons. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect that a choice of that type would be taken forward in an upgrade path like this. After all, this isn't a case of making the weapons "even better" - it's actually returning them to their intended status as some of the best weapons in the entire game, which is a status they have lost.

"Do or do not make the weapon" is a bit of an oversimplification when we consider the motivation for this upgrade path being presented to us in the first place.

[Vae]

Aeonic does not allow steady progress by means of gil.

There is NOTHING in FFXI that cannot be bought with gil.

[Malefactor]

Do these REM updates include shields(ochain/aegis)?

[Vashkoda]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I was reflecting on the fact that SE have effectively revoked an existing, very significant choice that was fundamental to the nature of these special weapons. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect that a choice of that type would be taken forward in an upgrade path like this. After all, this isn't a case of making the weapons "even better" - it's actually returning them to their intended status as some of the best weapons in the entire game, which is a status they have lost.

"Do or do not make the weapon" is a bit of an oversimplification when we consider the motivation for this upgrade path being presented to us in the first place.

To be fair, many mythics/ergons are still useful even in their current state, as are emp and relic shields and instruments. That's not to say they can't be improved further, but it's really the non-shield/instrument relics and emps that are hurting the most right now. And as much as SE might want to cut them some slack and make the upgrade at about the same difficulty as the last few paths, what it ultimately comes down to is that they can't. Due to programming or personnel limitations, they can't (or won't) do separate paths for AG and not AG weapons any more. And so, because AG exists, everyone without one must now pay the consequences.

What I find unfair is that ergons have no AG to begin with, and still must be made to suffer through some ridiculous trial. :p

[Vae]

Guys, seriously, it's blatantly obvious what's going on here, come on. They're making it as annoying as humanly possible, to force you into having a goal for the foreseeable future.

By forcing you into an afterglow path it more or less ensures that you'll spend thousands more hours on the trials. None of you will quit, you'll never quit. You'll piss and moan and do the trials, then ask for more punishment.

[Daisansha]

Guys, seriously, it's blatantly obvious what's going on here, come on. They're making it as annoying as humanly possible, to force you into having a goal for the foreseeable future.

By forcing you into an afterglow path it more or less ensures that you'll spend thousands more hours on the trials. None of you will quit, you'll never quit. You'll piss and moan and do the trials, then ask for more punishment.

No, what is obvious is that SE is making two types of ultimate weapons (SE specifically said they were making upgraded REMs comparable to Aeonics). They are making so there are two paths to obtain ultimate weapons. One path is for the greatly skilled (aeonics); the other path is for the greatly perseverant (REMs). This is a fairly common theme in anime btw: skill vs effort, and so I'm not too shocked to see it here. Make your choice: skill, effort, both, or neither. Anyone can choose to do 3/4 of those paths, the only one that can't be done by everyone is the skill path. Either you got it, or you don't. Inb4 someone says they are entitled to the skill path even though they lack skill.

[machini]

Oh god. Are you serious? Are you really serious? Are you saying Aeonics are for the "greatly skilled"? Are you truthfully saying that?

I'm sorry. Previously I thought you merely didn't understand the viewpoint that myself and others were trying to make. Now I know you're incapable of understanding it at all.

There is absolutely no more skill involved in getting an Aeonic than in getting a Relic, Empyrean, or Mythic.

[Vae]

No, what is obvious is that SE is making two types of ultimate weapons (SE specifically said they were making upgraded REMs comparable to Aeonics). They are making so there are two paths to obtain ultimate weapons. One path is for the greatly skilled (aeonics); the other path is for the greatly perseverant (REMs). This is a fairly common theme in anime btw: skill vs effort, and so I'm not too shocked to see it here. Make your choice: skill, effort, both, or neither. Anyone can choose to do 3/4 of those paths, the only one that can't be done by everyone is the skill path. Either you got it, or you don't. Inb4 someone says they are entitled to the skill path even though they lack skill.

Nothing in FFXI requires skill. Everything is Gil driven, and time based. There's nothing that cannot be obtained, while blindfolded, playing with your feet only. Provided you have the patience to earn gil.

(there USED to be some things that required a BIT of skill. Kiting Kirin for an hour without dying. Procing abyssea between tp moves/magics. that is the extent of "skill" within this game.)

FFXI consists of hitting 2-3 buttons, in a pattern, a monkey can do it. The only thing that exists is "the grind" and how hard you are on it.

[Daisansha]

Oh god. Are you serious? Are you really serious? Are you saying Aeonics are for the "greatly skilled"? Are you truthfully saying that?

I'm sorry. Previously I thought you merely didn't understand the viewpoint that myself and others were trying to make. Now I know you're incapable of understanding it at all.

There is absolutely no more skill involved in getting an Aeonic than in getting a Relic, Empyrean, or Mythic.

lololololololool. Ho, ho, I'm laughing so hard. Tell me, have you beaten Zerde? No? Has anyone? No? Didn't think so. Some of the other fights are incredibly difficult as well. Come back when you actually know what you are talking about.

[Daisansha]

Nothing in FFXI requires skill. Everything is Gil driven, and time based. There's nothing that cannot be obtained, while blindfolded, playing with your feet only. Provided you have the patience to earn gil.

(there USED to be some things that required a BIT of skill. Kiting Kirin for an hour without dying. Procing abyssea between tp moves/magics. that is the extent of "skill" within this game.)

FFXI consists of hitting 2-3 buttons, in a pattern, a monkey can do it. The only thing that exists is "the grind" and how hard you are on it.

You, also, don't know what you are talking about. Actually learn what it takes to get an aeonic before coming back.

[machini]

You, also, don't know what you are talking about. Actually learn what it takes to get an aeonic before coming back.

You mean all those fights you can pay to have other people brew for you?

Lots of skill there.

Please stop now before you embarrass yourself further.

[Vae]

This dude Daisansha is absolutely clueless. There's no benefit to even replying to him. Just ignore and move on.

[Daisansha]

You mean all those fights you can pay to have other people brew for you?

Lots of skill there.

Please stop now before you embarrass yourself further.


This dude Daisansha is absolutely clueless. There's no benefit to even replying to him. Just ignore and move on.

Again, the two of you showing that you don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, actually do some research and apply logic before replying.

You can't brew aeonics. This has been known for over a month now.

And as for the "you can buy anything with gil" comment: it doesn't matter if you have 10 trillion gil.... since no one can beat the content, then it doesn't matter if you throw all that gil at someone, you're still not getting the aeonic.

You two are the ones that need to stop embarrassing yourselves.

[Angemon]

Actually Dai sounds like he knows what he is talking about. The two of you are embarrassing yourselves. Did you really compare kiting Kirin for 2 hours to having skill? I hope that is a joke....

[Shirai]

Your current argument is "noone knows how to beat it yet", yet being the key word here.
Give it time before the first people come with a sure way to beat the content, then others will follow and before long gil will buy you an Aeonic.

And as far as skill goes, please describe skill in a game where the core mechanic is gear and buff up to deal enough damage and kill the mob before it kills you or time runs out.
And no, doing damage is not skill, Patrick.

Oh, and neither do I count being fortunate enough to be in a good coordinated group as skill either.

[Daisansha]

Your current argument is "noone knows how to beat it yet", yet being the key word here.
Give it time before the first people come with a sure way to beat the content, then others will follow and before long gil will buy you an Aeonic.

And as far as skill goes, please describe skill in a game where the core mechanic is gear and buff up to deal enough damage and kill the mob before it kills you or time runs out.
And no, doing damage is not skill, Patrick.

Oh, and neither do I count being fortunate enough to be in a good coordinated group as skill either.


Yes, yet (or never, no one knows atm). Until such time that the conditions for buying an aeonic exist, that is a legitimate argument as to why one cannot buy an aeonic. It is ridiculous for someone to say you can buy an aeonic when it isn't even possible.

I said it requires great skill to make an aeonic, so here is the description of great skill: accomplishing something that only a very few (or no one in this case) can do out of the entire population of the game. After many, many attempts, the entire population of this game is unable to make them. That means it requires skill that no one has. Part of skill is doing the right things at the right moment. Also part of skill is figuring out the right things to do at the right moment. Since no one has the skill to make them, it is ridiculous for someone to say that making aeonics does not require great skill (or that it is easy like the other person said).

I take it from your post that you most likely have not attempted to complete an aeonic. Go try killing Zerde and some of the other latest NMs then come back and say it doesn't require skill.

[dasva]

Again, the two of you showing that you don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, actually do some research and apply logic before replying.

You can't brew aeonics. This has been known for over a month now.


Can you show where this is "known". The only thing I remember seeing about it about a month ago was a very vague jp help text on fighting them that literally just says "primeval brew bad. It's power is unstable. " with the English saying 0 about brews. Which could mean any number of things namely the fact that it doesn't last nearly long to even just the get hard stuff in reseinjima and you can easily still die or get doomed charmed etc during it (maybe even something super crazy like it wearing off at the start of a pop so you can only do 1 nm per brew). I haven't seen anything seen anything about anyone actually testing it or any clear message about not using brews.

I'd also kind wonder just what it would take for SE to successful make the game be able to recognize that the kill you got on a monster occurred with someone in the alliance having had the brew buff up at anytime during the fight. Without messing up a bunch of other stuff that is

Also completely unrelated but brewing wont be as easy as people remember. With the way brew works a player brewing right now wont be too terribly stronger than when we brewed in abyssea. All the huge stat vomit we've gotten since then means nothing. The all the new mab we have will somewhat matter but is somewhat overshadowed by just how much brew already gives. New ws bonus or adjustments or spell adjustments help but on the other hand no atmas etc. Not to mention the dmg caps really. Meanwhile the monsters you are going to want to use this on are much much stronger. So like in abyssea there wasn't much that a cor or rng couldn't 1-2 shot with wildfire... now even if you managed to hit 99,999 for random ws x and same for the skillchain it's still going to take you multiple skillchains and most these mobs have some pretty mean gimmicks that could still kill, hurt or at least slow you down

[Kincard]

please describe skill in a game where the core mechanic is gear and buff up to deal enough damage and kill the mob before it kills you or time runs out.
And no, doing damage is not skill, Patrick.

Oh, and neither do I count being fortunate enough to be in a good coordinated group as skill either.

"I don't consider needing to be grouped with skilled players as something requiring skill". Come on now. Coordination is a skill. You're technically correct that everything in the game can be bought, but you're not going to convince anyone by using what's essentially the XI equivalent of the one-thousand-monkeys-at-typewriters scenario.

Gearing characters properly and formulating/executing strategies is exactly what an RPG is about. The fact that people can look up a strategy doesn't mean it doesn't require skill, unless you think you can't be good at Checkers because it's a solved game.

[Angemon]

It's something people say to look cool, Kincard. This game does require skill, and people always say that in any game to make things look easier than they are. If that were the case people would be face rolling all the highest tier Escha fights, and they aren't so yeah.

[Daisansha]

Can you show where this is "known".

Sure. Here are the ones I found with a minimal search:

OF: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/49422-Regarding-Primeval-Brews-and-Aeonic-Weapons.?daysprune=60

FFXIAH: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/47917/psa-dont-use-primeval-brew-for-the-aeonic-quest/ pretty much the whole page, but specifically the 5th post from the bottom by Essylt.

BGWiki: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Aeonic_Weapons

BG Forum: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/126946-Reisenjima-Mega-Thread/page16 post#301
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/126946-Reisenjima-Mega-Thread/page18 post#355


I'm sure there is probably more to be found (especially on the japanese forums), I just did a quick search.

[Shirai]

No, I stand by my point, nothing in this game requires skill.
In the end it's getting strong enough yourself while weakening the mob and dealing enough damage so that its HP hits 0 before your own HP and MP reach that point.
Or time runs out.

You can call teamwork a skill, if you want, but I don't. Though observation might be getting close.

And no, I haven't started making an Aeonic, I simply have no interest in such a weapon.

Looking at the jobs I really like(d) to play.
I have a pair of Spharai for my monk, for which I worked the greater part of a year making them.
I don't have to tell any of you what the state of those weapons is right now, or monk for that matter.

Summoner, my real pride and joy, has a Nirvana.
I've looked at the Aeonic weapon for it, nah.

As for other jobs, I simply don't have enough interest in any of them to even bother. Not even for the sense of accomplishment.


If that were the case people would be face rolling all the highest tier Escha fights, and they aren't so yeah.

I have lost track of the amount of times I have heard and read this.
Just give it time, be it a day, a week or maybe even a year. At one point people will be face rolling this content too. Be it because people figured out the mechanics, getting too overgeared for the content or SE nerfing the crap out of it.

In the end this content too will be face rolled.

And "look cool", really now? I am cool. :)

[Angemon]

So what exactly requires skill, according to you? In what game in the RPG genre. Because you just gave the most generic answer ever, oh all you need to do is reduce their defenses, increase your offenses and get their HP to 0 before yours. Which describes like every single RPG ever.

[Shirai]

Exactly. RPGs don't require skill at all, ffxi is no exception in this.
It all comes down to effort, and Aeonics are really no exception in this either.

In the 12 years I have played this game, and the 14 years of its existence "only for the most skilled" is one of the biggest lies told.
Patient and/or devoted? Yes. Skilled? nah.

[Catmato]

What about proper timing of stuns? Timing of weaponskills? Moving out of AoE?

Maybe you don't know what "skill" means?

[Angemon]

RPG require no skill, ok thanks now we know to not take you seriously.

[Shirai]

What about proper timing of stuns? Timing of weaponskills? Moving out of AoE?

Maybe you don't know what "skill" means?

Definitely do, but still, skill is not needed to "win" at this game, it just makes things easier. But as others also point out, so does having a big bag of gil.

Which was the whole point of this argument.

[Vae]

What about proper timing of stuns?
People use programs, the progammer had some skill (not in ffxi) writing up the program to react to actions, but not the user.


Timing of weaponskills?
Srsly? 1000% go.
The only "skill" weaponskill timing requires, is not losing your shit when the other guy screws up.


Moving out of AoE?
Mage all the things. Mages stand stationary as far away as possible. When one mage pulls enmity, they all die. Rarely does anyone bother to get out of the way. That's not skill, it's common sense.

It USED to be an issue with SAMs not having the common sense to move away from conal/breath/etc due to overwhelm, but that's since been solved with the melee nothing strategy.



Maybe you don't know what "skill" means?
Based on the things you said were skill related, one would argue that it is you who do not know what it means.

[dasva]

Sure. Here are the ones I found with a minimal search:

OF: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/49422-Regarding-Primeval-Brews-and-Aeonic-Weapons.?daysprune=60

FFXIAH: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/47917/psa-dont-use-primeval-brew-for-the-aeonic-quest/ pretty much the whole page, but specifically the 5th post from the bottom by Essylt.

BGWiki: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Aeonic_Weapons

BG Forum: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/126946-Reisenjima-Mega-Thread/page16 post#301
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/126946-Reisenjima-Mega-Thread/page18 post#355


I'm sure there is probably more to be found (especially on the japanese forums), I just did a quick search.

Let's see that OF was exactly what I said the whole is bad which is incredibly unclear asking for clarification that SE hasn't given . That BGwiki entry comes from the bg forum entry that again is the same brew is bad. And the ffxiah again is saying the same thing except the one post you want to single out because it says what you want it to but later posts show that isn't entirely correct. Specifically dame like most words in any language have multiple related meanings which is even more evident when translating between languages

So 4 links that basically just repeat the brew is bad I already mentioned.... So while it could mean you can't do it, it could mean you shouldn't or it's bad to use it. All of it only on the Japanese client which makes it somewhat suspect to begin with as being an actual requirement instead of some kind of general warning or flavor. Like perhaps SE is trying to give a mild reproach for doing it the easy way with a tsk tsk that's bad player-chan. So we don't "know" it wont work we suspect it wont work. We will know soon enough though with these crazy campaigns letting us get tons of slit

[Grekumah]

For Relic, Mythic, Empyrean and Ergon weapons, players will be able to upgrade these weapons even if you have not unlocked their afterglows. If a weapon has had its afterglow unlocked, the amount of resources required to upgrade these weapons in the future will be eased.

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.

The reason for adding afterglow to all these weapons is that we want to use the space allotted to the Trial of the Magians system to allow for the possibility of expansion in the future.

[Shirai]

Gremukah,

Why is the dev team so insistent on punishing the majority of the R/E/M wielders for choosing to not to get something that was supposed to be a trophy fmeant for the most dedicated?
I find it a bit hard to swallow that it's just for the sake of giving the dev team an easier time.

[larrymc]

Gremukah,

Why is the dev team so insistent on punishing the majority of the R/E/M wielders for choosing to not to get something that was supposed to be a trophy fmeant for the most dedicated?
I find it a bit hard to swallow that it's just for the sake of giving the dev team an easier time.

I don't view it as punishment. If you look at the stats of the new weapons (well the 4 they teased to us) they put the newly upgraded weapons right back at the very top of the weapon hierarchy again. I don't mind putting in some further effort to obtain this latest upgrade. In fact I'm looking forward to it.

[Jerbob]

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.
Thank you for further clarification.

I am still extremely dissatisfied with this. I am not happy that I will be forced to complete an excessively arduous trial for an unwanted trophy effect if I wish to use any special weapons in the manner that they were designed. As such I am unlikely to participate in this content unless these plans are changed.

I understand that there are problems releasing extra trials. However, my personal belief is that the sacrifices being made with the current solution are not appropriate.

[Shirai]

Perhaps, but I can't stop feeling like they're saying "afterglow was a mistake" a mistake we (the players) are going to have to pay for.
And it may not necessarily be us, the ones that didn't afterglow. One of the parties is going to be heavily boned, that is one thing I am sure of.

[Alhanelem]

For Relic, Mythic, Empyrean and Ergon weapons, players will be able to upgrade these weapons even if you have not unlocked their afterglows. If a weapon has had its afterglow unlocked, the amount of resources required to upgrade these weapons in the future will be eased.

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.

The reason for adding afterglow to all these weapons is that we want to use the space allotted to the Trial of the Magians system to allow for the possibility of expansion in the future.

Short version: We've decided to take the excessively long time sink version of a long but managable time sink, and apply that excessively long time sink to everyone with a relic weapon instead. Enjoy your new time sinks, everyone.

Seriously, this needs to change. Most players skipped afterglows because the requirements for them are insane. I personally spent all the gil I had just to buy the ADL items needed for just the normal version. Now you're telling us we have to do this extended, excessive work just to make our weapons we've already invested substantial time into worthwhile. Why do the devs not see a problem with this?

The reasoning here is not so great. If you need to expand things in the future, use some other system than Trial of the Magians for it. I'm totally fine with it taking longer to implement. Just don't force us to do a ridiculous amount of extra work just to bring our weapons back to where they should have been all along.

[Zekander]

At least they clarified that we won't have to go through the existing Afterglow trial in order to upgrade our non-afterglow weapons. As long as the new requirements are significantly more reasonable, that would be great. I don't believe that everyone should be able to complete the upgrade an hour after the patch goes live. It should be somewhat of a time sink, that's all any game is after all, just as long it is not completely unreasonable and can be cleared by players that don't spend 24/7 online.

[Daisansha]

Let's see that OF was exactly what I said the whole is bad which is incredibly unclear asking for clarification that SE hasn't given . That BGwiki entry comes from the bg forum entry that again is the same brew is bad. And the ffxiah again is saying the same thing except the one post you want to single out because it says what you want it to but later posts show that isn't entirely correct. Specifically dame like most words in any language have multiple related meanings which is even more evident when translating between languages

So 4 links that basically just repeat the brew is bad I already mentioned.... So while it could mean you can't do it, it could mean you shouldn't or it's bad to use it. All of it only on the Japanese client which makes it somewhat suspect to begin with as being an actual requirement instead of some kind of general warning or flavor. Like perhaps SE is trying to give a mild reproach for doing it the easy way with a tsk tsk that's bad player-chan. So we don't "know" it wont work we suspect it wont work. We will know soon enough though with these crazy campaigns letting us get tons of slit

That's just wishful thinking on your part. Your reasoning for it being included in the text makes no sense whatsoever. SE wouldn't have included it in the text without some very good reason, namely, you aren't allowed to use it. Any other reason falls short of being legitimate as SE wouldn't have bothered to put it in there in the first place. And yes, we will "know" it for sure as soon as someone goes and gets 11 mil silt and brews one of the NMs they haven't killed yet.

[Alhanelem]

At least they clarified that we won't have to go through the existing Afterglow trial in order to upgrade our non-afterglow weapons. As long as the new requirements are significantly more reasonable, that would be great. I don't believe that everyone should be able to complete the upgrade an hour after the patch goes live. It should be somewhat of a time sink, that's all any game is after all, just as long it is not completely unreasonable and can be cleared by players that don't spend 24/7 online.
But they won't do that, because it would be unfair to the 10 players that actually went through the torture of getting afterglows.

[Angemon]

Should those players get screwed over Alhanelem?

[Shirai]

If you look at the stats of the new weapons (well the 4 they teased to us) they put the newly upgraded weapons right back at the very top of the weapon hierarchy again.

People in my linkshell have been mentioning the same, I may be looking in the wrong direction here (Playonline site/FFXI Youtube channel) but I can't find it.
It's probably somewhere in the Japanese area of these forums, but since my Japanese is limited to reading kana and ordering food and drinks, chances are I won't find it that easy.
Mind sharing the link?

[Zhronne]

They only showed us pictures of the 4 RME swords upgraded to their new form, with stats and everything. It was during one of the latest Freshly Picked Vana'diel sessions.
Seeing behind things, they are trying to offer a long-term content (that will keep players busy for a long time) minimizing the resources effort on their side to produce it.
On one hand I find this understandable giving their limited resources, on the other hand it makes me very unsatisfied because I feel almost tricked.

This solution won't make the players with normal RME happy, it won't make the players with Afterglow happy. Who exactely is going to be happy from going on this direction? I'd dare to say quite a very limited number of players.



At the end of the day it all comes down to how hard the trial for "normal" RME will be.
Is it going to be Afterglow-like? Majority of us expects it to be, rightfully, easier than that. But how much easier? That's the big question that's gonna change how this solution they insist to pursue head on will really be perceived by players.


Oh and about RME being top weapons again, I don't think anybody was *demanding* that (there are pros and cons in such a scenario, after all). I'm sure the majority of players were just asking for RME weapons to become relevant/viable again, not necessarily the best. The large majority of RME weapons aren't in such a position atm, aside a few exceptions (not counting those who have a niche use because of properties other than damage-related ones, of course)

[Tidis]

I'm willing to wait and see what the requirements to upgrade are going to be before I brandish my pitchfork but as people have pointed out, SE are risking annoying a bulk of their playerbase to satisfy a minority of players who spent millions of gil on a minor upgrade. So now years down the line they get an advantage by getting these top tier weapons not only a lot easier but potentially weeks ahead of the majority of the player base if the requirements are particularly daunting.

Not to forget that some of these afterglow weapons would have been achieved by either illegitemate or now closed off means, fishbotting Haks, chocobo blinkers and the big daddy of them all, the Salvage pos hacking exploit which got some people millions of gil and a slap on the wrist because it was their first ban.

[Vae]

What I said will certainly get me banned, so let's rephrase a little...


I'm willing to wait and see what the requirements to upgrade are going to be before I brandish my pitchfork but as people have pointed out, SE are risking annoying a bulk of their playerbase to satisfy a minority of players who spent millions of gil on a minor upgrade. So now years down the line they get an advantage by getting these top tier weapons not only a lot easier but potentially weeks ahead of the majority of the player base if the requirements are particularly daunting.

Square does not care about English opinions, at all. Not even one. No one can theoretically be happy about this upgrade. It exists for the sole purpose of being the largest time sink they could come up with on short notice. The people without glows are going to have a rather daunting task, that will take the rich 10 minutes and the casual a life time. The people with afterglows should be FURIOUS. But no one cares about Pchan's opinion, and he's the only one that actually has an afterglow, right? (lol) ((underflows are so lame)). Their special snowflake status is being shit upon.


Not to forget that some of these afterglow weapons would have been achieved by either illegitemate or now closed off means, fishbotting Haks, chocobo blinkers and the big daddy of them all, the Salvage pos hacking exploit which got some people millions of gil and a slap on the wrist because it was their first ban.

This has nothing to really do with anything. 99% of all R/M/E weapons in the beginning were obtained @ 75 the exact same way (there was always that one crazy THF stealing 24/7 to fund the first Mandau on each server that earned it without cheating.) . 100% of Idris and Epoliatry were obtained the exact same way. Every. Single. Idris/Epiolitry was only able to be made from programming. The grind was absurd, and not a single person earned without buying HP bayld from someone who made them in that manner. ~50% of Afterglows were actually NOT obtained that way, they were underflowed. (irrelevant arguement)

Point is cheating is a thing. It's always gonna be a thing. Afterglow is frivolous. If you want something to complain about, the only thing you have any ability to do so upon would be how terrible afterglow effects are. If a party of 6 people all have afterglows, there is actually zero point in anyone having afterglows, because they don't stack (do they?). And how UGLY the red glow is, and how PLAIN the white glow is. The blue glow is aight.

Spolier: The first Aeonics will be made due to people cheating too.

[larrymc]

People in my linkshell have been mentioning the same, I may be looking in the wrong direction here (Playonline site/FFXI Youtube channel) but I can't find it.
It's probably somewhere in the Japanese area of these forums, but since my Japanese is limited to reading kana and ordering food and drinks, chances are I won't find it that easy.
Mind sharing the link?

Here is the link.
https://youtu.be/WlWMHIFUj0k?t=33m9s

[dasva]

That's just wishful thinking on your part. Your reasoning for it being included in the text makes no sense whatsoever. SE wouldn't have included it in the text without some very good reason, namely, you aren't allowed to use it. Any other reason falls short of being legitimate as SE wouldn't have bothered to put it in there in the first place. And yes, we will "know" it for sure as soon as someone goes and gets 11 mil silt and brews one of the NMs they haven't killed yet.

Maybe it's just negative thinking otherwise. As far as reasoning... aside from the fact that most the text in the game that SE "bothers to put in the first place" is pure flavor you could make the same argument in reverse. That SE wouldn't have failed to include to give everyone the warning if it in fact was a requirement especially with a steep cost and then also fail to respond to questions about it.

Regardless my point isn't that it definitely can or can't be done. Just that as of right now while we have reason to believe it wont work we also don't know for a fact it wont and as such have to consider both possibilities and not make definite statements that you can or can't

[dasva]

Every. Single. Idris/Epiolitry was only able to be made from programming. The grind was absurd, and not a single person earned without buying HP bayld from someone who made them in that manner. ~50% of Afterglows were actually NOT obtained that way, they were underflowed. (irrelevant arguement)

Spolier: The first Aeonics will be made due to people cheating too.

Epeoltry owner chiming in. 100% farmed the entire thing. Granted it took me a lot longer than most people and I was tri-box farming usually and doing silly things like using the skirmish parts I got to do balyd farming skirmish runs for hours on end. And I've completely sworn off making an Idris.

Kind of curious about the aeonics though last I saw there wasn't any real huge time sink involved that people would try to cheat past. I think all nms have been killed

[bryangelos]

For Relic, Mythic, Empyrean and Ergon weapons, players will be able to upgrade these weapons even if you have not unlocked their afterglows. If a weapon has had its afterglow unlocked, the amount of resources required to upgrade these weapons in the future will be eased.

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.

The reason for adding afterglow to all these weapons is that we want to use the space allotted to the Trial of the Magians system to allow for the possibility of expansion in the future.


I find it funny that Ergon owners have to go through the harder path, yet they don't get the afterglow...

[dasva]

I find it funny that Ergon owners have to go through the harder path, yet they don't get the afterglow...

Not to mention have the fact that they already cost 2-3 times as much to make than empyreans and mythics in the first place....

[Shirai]

You know the sad part about this is that most of us, despite our protests, will end up doing whatever they've got planned.

[Alhanelem]

Should those players get screwed over Alhanelem?
No, but there are many ways to solve this. They could provide compensation, for instance. Lower the requirements for afterglow by like 80% and then give everyone who completed one that number of items to compensate. They still have their afterglows, and can selll them to other people. there will definitely be a high demand.

Of course, the best solution is to simply keep the two upgrade paths and not force people to get afterglows to continue upgrading...

[Angemon]

I agree with you there.

[Malithar]

100% of Idris and Epoliatry were obtained the exact same way. Every. Single. Idris/Epiolitry was only able to be made from programming. The grind was absurd, and not a single person earned without buying HP bayld from someone who made them in that manner. ~50% of Afterglows were actually NOT obtained that way, they were underflowed. (irrelevant arguement)

Point is cheating is a thing. It's always gonna be a thing. Afterglow is frivolous. If you want something to complain about, the only thing you have any ability to do so upon would be how terrible afterglow effects are. If a party of 6 people all have afterglows, there is actually zero point in anyone having afterglows, because they don't stack (do they?). And how UGLY the red glow is, and how PLAIN the white glow is. The blue glow is aight.

Spolier: The first Aeonics will be made due to people cheating too.

I bought/farmed all of my HPBs for the first Idris, I don't really care where they came from. Cheating might be a thing, but SE should consider how a system can be cheated with something as simple as afk botting before they implement it. Not to say something more involved like Mythics can't be botted since they certainly can, but it's not as simple as parking botted alts at every reive possible. Not to mention grinding your own Ergon is incredibly boring, no difference in content, just grind WKRs and reives. Joy. The CSs involved in upgrading it were a step above RMEs progression though, at least.


I find it funny that Ergon owners have to go through the harder path, yet they don't get the afterglow...

I don't even mind going the 'hard' route, but not getting a glow is pretty silly. :/ After this update, if someone is glowing, they've most likely gotten the new version. But for Ergon owners, there'll be no visible difference between the new and old, and considering how they're making this additional work sound pretty involved, it's just silly. Hopefully the boost is at least substantial, they'd need to add a hefty amount of nuking stats to make it top Solstice, and I highly doubt they'd touch the +Geomancy nor the -Pet DT.

[kittycat]

Compromise idea:

Change the initial ilvl 119 RME reforge's base dmg / delay to be comparable to other ilvl 119 weapons (like delve, vagary, unity). The original RME reforge to 119 had low dmg/delay because delve was top tier, but that's no longer the case. The 99% cares about being able to use their RME as something besides glamor. More people will make RME knowing the dmg/delay is decent and will subscribe longer farming them. This won't throw off the balance of 2016 top-tier content, because base damage won't overcome the accuracy/evasion/damage_taken challenges.

The next-step upgrade to have aeonic-like weapon skill level increases and afterglow should have the challenging February patch tasks. That's fine, we want power upgrades and will play for more months to earn it.

Doing this compromise would use the lowest number of TOM slots, makes the 99% happy, makes the 1% happy, maintain balance, and encourage more months of play.

[Cblade]

Totally called it being 10K times what afterglow is. 10K plutons/others, because those are readily available in that quantity. Anybody happen to know a way to farm plutons by chance?

[Shirai]

Totally called it being 10K times what afterglow is. 10K plutons/others, because those are readily available in that quantity. Anybody happen to know a way to farm plutons by chance?

All I can think of is spamming Delve right now.
I do hope SE's considering other ways to obtain these, because neither option is very attractive right now.

Then again, it's probably a nice way to get rid of some of those pesky subscribers.

[Angemon]

Best way would be to farm High-tier battles on the higher difficulties. Shirai weren't you quitting anyway? Seem to recall you saying that multiple times. Anyhow the prices will stabilize and it will be a decent income source for a little for people and something long-term for everyone to work towards while we wait for the next months updates.

[Shirai]

Oh, and high tier battlefields.


Shirai weren't you quitting anyway? Seem to recall you saying that multiple times.

I have indeed mentioned lacking motivation to play, and I still do lack the motivation for any longer term projects at the moment to be fair. But permanently quiting isn't on my mind just yet, still have a few fairly easy to reach goals in game which can be done with some casual on and off playing and that suits me fine for the moment.


Anyhow the prices will stabilize and it will be a decent income source for a little for people and something long-term for everyone to work towards while we wait for the next months updates.

I'm not expecting anything else and it will be a decent source of income for people for a while to come.

That said, looking at the new stats it seems my Monk won't be coming out of retirement any time soon and it seems there's no need to upgrade Nirvana just yet.

[dasva]

It's high tier battlefield campaign right now... which was kind of a hint this would be the cost

[machini]

I'm seeing reports that mythics got absolutely no boosts to their aftermaths while empyrean got Occasionally Deals Triple Damage.

WTF.

[Shirai]

I'm seeing reports that mythics got absolutely no boosts to their aftermaths while empyrean got Occasionally Deals Triple Damage.

WTF.

Eh, not too peeved about that. Relic weapons already have that as "Hidden effect" without having to keep an Aftermath up and unless SE's changed it in this update the damage multiplier can only proc on normal strikes and not on Weapon skills.

It'll likely proc considerably more often than the hidden effect on relic weapons, but even then it's still only an occasional effect.

That said, Mythic Aftermath is already incredibly powerful on its own, and it also lasts considerably longer than that of its Relic and Empyrian counterparts. (Not sure about Aeonic, not much info about that one available yet.)

[machini]

Eh, not too peeved about that. Relic weapons already have that as "Hidden effect" without having to keep an Aftermath up and unless SE's changed it in this update the damage multiplier can only proc on normal strikes and not on Weapon skills.

It'll likely proc considerably more often than the hidden effect on relic weapons, but even then it's still only an occasional effect.

That said, Mythic Aftermath is already incredibly powerful on its own, and it also lasts considerably longer than that of its Relic and Empyrian counterparts. (Not sure about Aeonic, not much info about that one available yet.)

The point is that, despite supposedly being the best weapons, Mythics got comparatively weaker against Relic and Empyrean with this update.

Just as an example, Terpsichore goes from DMG 102 to DMG 128. Twashtar goes from DMG 89 to DMG 124. And then gets presumably a 50% increase it the value of its AM3.

Twashtar before the update had a DPS of ~30.3, and Terpsichore had ~29.8, which were within ~1% of each other. Now Twashtar has a DPS of 42.7, and Terpsichore has 37.4.

So not only has Twashtar gone from DPS parity with Terpsichore to being ~14% ahead of it, but also gained a (presumably) vastly upgraded aftermath. For an equivalent boost, assuming proc rate is the same, Mythics would need to go to 80% OA2 and 30% OA3, or some combination of OA3 and OA4.

It's ridiculously imbalanced. That's just one weapon.

This just isn't acceptable.

[edit]math is hard

[machini]

Similar for Conqueror and Ukonvasara, Ryunohige and Rhongomiant, Kogarasumaru and Masamune, Nagi and Kannagi, Liberator and Redemption.

[Shirai]

You kinda left that detail out of your initial complaint, that said, taking that into the comparison I can't disagree that the Empyrians did indeed get an unfair boost.

[machini]

You kinda left that detail out of your initial complaint, that said, taking that into the comparison I can't disagree that the Empyrians did indeed get an unfair boost.

I apologize. I've been up for nearly thirty six hours at this point, I'm surprised I can still type, let alone type something intelligible.

[machini]

http://i.imgur.com/LJgcT9x.png

So, yeah, looking at some of these weapons, it seems Emypreans have gotten a roughly 39% damage increase, Relics a 36%, and Mythics, if you ignore Gastraphetes, got a 25% damage increase. I'm ignoring Gastraphetes because it somehow nearly doubled in DPS. That must be a mistake. If it's not a mistake, I am even further incapable of comprehending the wisdom of this decision. It's especially jarring, and sticks out like a gangrenous thumb, when you notice that at their original 119 verisons, many of these weapons were very close to each other in DPS, whereas with the current update, Relic and Empyrean pulled significantly ahead, while mythic remained close together (compare the daggers).

Combine the fact that Mythics got a comparatively smaller damage increase, no aftermath upgrade, no upgrade to their job-specific enhancements, and, from what I understand, no increase to their weapon skill damage, and compare that massive pile of nothing to the higher damage boost that Relics and Empyreans got, especially combined with the stats on Empyreans and their (again, assuming same proc rates) 50% better Aftermath, then yes, this update has been a huge insult to people who have mythics.

This needs to be fixed, and now.

[Ashel]

Anyone seen the stats on the upgraded Kenkonken?

[Kensagaku]

Anyone seen the stats on the upgraded Kenkonken?

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/February_2016_Version_Update_Changes All the upgraded weapons are here, if that helps. :P

[Ashel]

Thanks appreciate it!

[Rydal]

http://i.imgur.com/LJgcT9x.png

So, yeah, looking at some of these weapons, it seems Emypreans have gotten a roughly 39% damage increase, Relics a 36%, and Mythics, if you ignore Gastraphetes, got a 25% damage increase. I'm ignoring Gastraphetes because it somehow nearly doubled in DPS. That must be a mistake. If it's not a mistake, I am even further incapable of comprehending the wisdom of this decision. It's especially jarring, and sticks out like a gangrenous thumb, when you notice that at their original 119 verisons, many of these weapons were very close to each other in DPS, whereas with the current update, Relic and Empyrean pulled significantly ahead, while mythic remained close together (compare the daggers).

This needs to be fixed, and now.

The weapon damage is almost double from the 119 version so it'd make sense that the DPS doubled.

I'm not sure but maybe they boosted them the way they did was because mythic have special job specific boosts that the Relic and Empyreans lack, making them more desirable than the other two, especially when pure DPS isn't even the importance in some cases (mostly for mages and pet jobs). Murgleis, for example, might be seen as one of the Mythics that were "saved" via this update, as opposed to say Nirvana, which doesn't get a major boon from the update.

Since Relics and Empyreans are more geared towards attacking outright than Mythics are (since again, many people might use mythics more for the job specific buffs), it makes sense that their DPS is higher since they lack many special buffs. Also, Mythic AM is potentially higher damage because of the double/triple proc.

[Olor]

Yeah but don't mythics have way better special abilities for the most part?

[Ulth]

Yeah but don't mythics have way better special abilities for the most part?

They didn't increase the special abilities either. No changes to the aftermaths, no augments VI instead of V, no increase to mythic weaponskill damage.

[Karbuncle]

http://i.imgur.com/LJgcT9x.png

So, yeah, looking at some of these weapons, it seems Emypreans have gotten a roughly 39% damage increase, Relics a 36%, and Mythics, if you ignore Gastraphetes, got a 25% damage increase. I'm ignoring Gastraphetes because it somehow nearly doubled in DPS. That must be a mistake. If it's not a mistake, I am even further incapable of comprehending the wisdom of this decision. It's especially jarring, and sticks out like a gangrenous thumb, when you notice that at their original 119 verisons, many of these weapons were very close to each other in DPS, whereas with the current update, Relic and Empyrean pulled significantly ahead, while mythic remained close together (compare the daggers).

Combine the fact that Mythics got a comparatively smaller damage increase, no aftermath upgrade, no upgrade to their job-specific enhancements, and, from what I understand, no increase to their weapon skill damage, and compare that massive pile of nothing to the higher damage boost that Relics and Empyreans got, especially combined with the stats on Empyreans and their (again, assuming same proc rates) 50% better Aftermath, then yes, this update has been a huge insult to people who have mythics.

This needs to be fixed, and now.

I would believe it to be honest. Gastraphetes was without a doubt the most useless joke of a Mythic available. So if that got upgraded as much as it did its likely in an effort to make it suck considerably less.

[Ulth]

I would believe it to be honest. Gastraphetes was without a doubt the most useless joke of a Mythic available. So if that got upgraded as much as it did its likely in an effort to make it suck considerably less.

Pretty sure the joke Mythic is Nagi, at least Gastraphetes was good for trueflight. Ranged Mythics seem to be an exception to the Mythics getting the short end as both benefit most from their magical weaponskills and they got magic damage added to the weapon as well as special ammo with high magic attack bonus. At least Mythic cors won't have to worry about shooting their Animikii Bullet anymore.

[Karbuncle]

I'd say before the Magic WS update Nagi was better than Gast, but pre that, perhaps...

[Aeron]

Can we please be a community rep response on why the devs feel that mythics should lag so much behind in dps? I understand that am3 is powerful, but the maintenance that is required to keep it up is frustrating at times. Can they alter aftermath so that you can over right it? Could they make it so that the last 30secs of the aftermath opens a window that if you were to use the appropriate ws that it resets? I find that im waiting with 3000tp, because if I were to ws it would be a waste.

The fact that mythics/ergons really didn't get good upgrades to their utility stats and the other category legendary wpns did diminishes mythics. I'm happy that relics and empyreans got the adjustments they did don't get me wrong, but it just felt really underwhelming when mythics are concerned. Considering the amount of upgrade items required it just feels like mythics got the short end of the stick when it comes to reward/time ratio for the final step. I am not calling for op mythics either, I'm not talking about stupid stuff like +5 geomancy to idris and +7pdt II to burtgang to bring it up to epeolatry. I think they missed an opportunity to add another interesting utility stat like they did to some of the other weapons. If mythics are really the job altering wpns that they should be (and yes I understand that idris is incredibly power) to be honest I would have been more happy if they would have maybe increased the different in dps and increased utility instead that way there would have a been a clear distinction in the final forms of these wpns.

[Cblade]

Given that the relic proc rate is so low (12.5% or so), it actually has the lowest dps out of all of the three. Mythic's not only get the att, acc, etc. bonus, but also get a much higher proc rate for multiple hits, thus allowing for more ws's. They also have the longest time duration of any aftermath by a large percent. Empyreans now get a triple dmg proc that, if it stays at the same percentage, gives it a ~100% dmg increase over time (triple dmg at 50% proc rate for +100% dot). Relics only get a ~12.5% average proc rate for 2-3x dmg, meaning they only get an ~25% boost at best for 3x dmg procs. Mythics gain at minimum 40-50% dot boost, emps get a 100% dot boost and relics get a 25% dot boost due to their aftermaths. I believe relics are actually the ones that are at the disadvantage here. Yes mythics have a much lower dot boost than emps, but they are still much higher than relics. Relics would need ~66% chance for the additional dmg to proc to keep up with empyreans if a lvl 3 was maintained. Granted, a level 1 empyrean aftermath is still a 60% boost to dmg (which is more than both mythic and relics by far). In short, both mythics and relics need a buff to keep up with empyreans, but relics are by far the weakest in terms of the potential dps. Again, I am assuming the same proc rates stay in the update, and will say that relics do get a massive accuracy boost over both emps and mythics (with emps being the least accurate in most cases). This accuracy is really the saving grace given current content for certain jobs.

[machini]

Cloudblade, from what I have seen, some of the Oboro JSE weapons get more accuracy than their job's mythics when upgraded fully.

There are some serious issues here that need to be fixed.

[Ulth]

Mythics gain at minimum 40-50% dot boost

The minimum is actually zero, occasionally attack twice and thrice are less effective depending on how much quadruple, triple, and double attack you have. Considering the amount of those stats on gear now compared to level 99 aftermath 3 has aged poorly.


Cloudblade, from what I have seen, some of the Oboro JSE weapons get more accuracy than their job's mythics when upgraded fully.

There are some serious issues here that need to be fixed.

This could be fixed with aftermath. Instead of 1 being acc, 2 being atk, and three being OATs, they should be cumulative 1 be acc, 2 being acc/atk, and 3 being acc/atk, 20 triple attack, and 40 double attack. Mythics get better attack and accuracy as well as making them not conflict with the high amount of double/triple attack from ilvl armor, easy fix.

[machini]

Ulth, they won't 'fix' aftermath like that. They just won't. They made it very clear with this update exactly what they think and what the disconnect between words and actions is.

And yes, mythic AM3 actually is less beneficial because of the way Occasionally Attacks X times interacts with Double, Triple and Quadruple attack. The upgrade to Empyrean Aftermath, while leaving Mythic untouched, is insulting. This update has been insulting.

[Aeron]

The only reasoning I can think of why they provided such a boost to relic and empyreans over mythic is because ppl complain about how hard mythics are to make.

[machini]

The only reasoning I can think of why they provided such a boost to relic and empyreans over mythic is because ppl complain about how hard mythics are to make.

Mythics aren't hard to make. And they are, by the dev's own admission, supposed to be the best weapons. And now they're worse off than they were relative to the relic and empyrean than before the update.

The only thing about mythics that has been 'hard' in the last couple of years was the time investment in terms of once-per-day bottlenecks meaning it took 50-100 days, minimum to make one (depending on if you had done any assaults or not).

[dasva]

Pretty sure the joke Mythic is Nagi, at least Gastraphetes was good for trueflight. Ranged Mythics seem to be an exception to the Mythics getting the short end as both benefit most from their magical weaponskills and they got magic damage added to the weapon as well as special ammo with high magic attack bonus. At least Mythic cors won't have to worry about shooting their Animikii Bullet anymore.

On the other hand ranged mythics still have worse AM3. The magic dmg stat on them looks cool but remember it does little to magic dmg with high base dmgs so in this case it doesn't really do much. The +50 agi on Armageddon will actually increase dmg more on the ranged magical ws. In fact arma just might be better overall... better aftermath better wf before count ammo though worse tf/ls dmg better physical dmg

[Aeron]

Mythics aren't hard to make. And they are, by the dev's own admission, supposed to be the best weapons. And now they're worse off than they were relative to the relic and empyrean than before the update.

The only thing about mythics that has been 'hard' in the last couple of years was the time investment in terms of once-per-day bottlenecks meaning it took 50-100 days, minimum to make one (depending on if you had done any assaults or not).

I agree with you that they aren't hard to make ppl that do the least amount of effort are usually the loudest on these forums and would cry saying its not fair that mythics were the best.

[Ulth]

On the other hand ranged mythics still have worse AM3. The magic dmg stat on them looks cool but remember it does little to magic dmg with high base dmgs so in this case it doesn't really do much. The +50 agi on Armageddon will actually increase dmg more on the ranged magical ws. In fact arma just might be better overall... better aftermath better wf before count ammo though worse tf/ls dmg better physical dmg

Do magic weaponskill have high base damage? I always thought their base damage was only based on the weaponskill attribute, or is magic damage added after the ftp? because if it is added after the ftp that's dumb and should be changed. And while it may be better for wildfire wouldn't trueflight and leaden be better than wildfire except in cases where you need fire damage specifically? And for physical damage wouldn't Annihilator be the better option? It's aftermath is +10% attack and has much better ranged accuracy and attack. The 10% attack would actually do something on ws where the triple damage aftermath would not. Really the whole thing is comparing apples to oranges though since Gastraphetes is a crossbow and Annihilator and Armageddon are guns.

[Cblade]

The minimum is actually zero, occasionally attack twice and thrice are less effective depending on how much quadruple, triple, and double attack you have. Considering the amount of those stats on gear now compared to level 99 aftermath 3 has aged poorly.

Mythics' DA/TA can proc on regular DA, TA and QA swings I believe. A regular DA could turn into a 5 hit or so if that is true. If the multiple hits can't proc on these, then Mythics' damage would fall.

[Ulth]

Mythics' DA/TA can proc on regular DA, TA and QA swings I believe. A regular DA could turn into a 5 hit or so if that is true. If the multiple hits can't proc on these, then Mythics' damage would fall.

That is not how it works. If it were I would regularly have 8 hits in a round of combat from my massive amounts of triple attack. Mythic aftermath 3 can only proc on the first hit and are rolled after QA, TA, and DA. It's well established how occasionally attacks twice and thrice works.

[machini]

If you have mythic aftermath 3 up, on average, you will get 1.8 attacks with your main hand. If you have Mythic Aftermath 3 up and you have 50% double attack, you will get, again, on average, 1.9 attacks with your main hand. If double, triple, or quadruple attack procs, then mythic aftermath 3 cannot proc.

The way the calculation works is this:
1 + 3Q + 2(1-Q)T + (1-(Q+T-QT))D + (1-Q)(1-T)(1-D)(3X + 2Y + Z)

1 + 3Q + 2(1-Q)T + (1-(Q+T-QT))D is the calculation for multiattack. So if you have 50% quadruple attack, 50% triple attack, and 50% double attack, you will not always quadruple or triple attack and never double attack. When you swing, 50% of the time you will Quadruple Attack. If you don't, then 50% of the time (25% of total) you will triple attack. If you don't triple attack, then 50% of the time (12.5%) of the time you will double attack. So your odds of QA are .5, your odds of TA .25, DA are .125, and no multiattack is .125 (.5 + .25 + .125 + .125 = 1).

Occasionally Attacks X times is calculated after multiattack. If Quadruple, Triple, or Double Attack activate, OAx cannot activate, as the calculation has stopped at whatever level of multiattack went off. With the above example, only 12.5% of the time could Mythic Aftermath 3 activate, which means it's effectively 1/8th as 'good' as it would seem to be.

In my <Full Attack!> gear I have 2 Quadruple Attack, 16 Triple Attack, and 12 Double Attack. With Saber Dance up I have, at a minimum, 20 more Double Attack. So 2% of the time I will Quadruple attack. 98% of the time I will Triple Attack 16% of the time. Then, 84% of 98% of the time, I will Double Attack 32% of the time with Saber Dance up.
.02 * 3 + .98 * .16 * 2 + (1 - (.18 - .02 * .14)) * .32 = .636896 attacks per attack round extra from all that multiattack.

Now we get to calculate the contribution from Mythic Aftermath 3. 68% of 84% of 98% of the time, I will attack twice 40% of the time and thrice 20% of the time.

.98 * . 84 * .68 = .559776.

So just under 56% of the time will Mythic Aftermath 3 even have a *chance* to activate, assuming its up, and 40% of the time it does I'll get an additional attack, and 20% I'll get two.

So .559776 * .4 = .2239104, and * .2 * 2 is the same thing. So Mythic Aftermath 3, instead of giving me the .8 attacks per round main hand it would give me if I had no DA/TA/QA, is now giving me .4478208 attacks per round on the main hand. Which means it has lost 44% of it's "awesomeness".

This has been a problem for a while now. There are no diminishing returns in a similar fashion, that I am aware of, on Relic or Empyrean aftermath.

And, again, this is just one small part of why this update has been such an insult.

[dasva]

Do magic weaponskill have high base damage? I always thought their base damage was only based on the weaponskill attribute, or is magic damage added after the ftp? because if it is added after the ftp that's dumb and should be changed. And while it may be better for wildfire wouldn't trueflight and leaden be better than wildfire except in cases where you need fire damage specifically? And for physical damage wouldn't Annihilator be the better option? It's aftermath is +10% attack and has much better ranged accuracy and attack. The 10% attack would actually do something on ws where the triple damage aftermath would not. Really the whole thing is comparing apples to oranges though since Gastraphetes is a crossbow and Annihilator and Armageddon are guns.

Sort of? It's really hard to compare terms like base dmg with how different magic and physical are calculated.

To answer your calc questions I'll just give an approximate equation. WF dmg = 2(dagi) + mdmg + ftp* (.6agi+lvl/ilvl factor). Then of course multiple by the normal multipliers like mab, wsd etc. So yeah magic damage is outside of ftp as is the dstat factor which kind of blows.

As far as leaden/true vs wildfire there is element but there is also tp and ws attribute aftermath concerns. Starting with tp... wf doesn't gain dmg with tp but the other 2 do. wf starts out higher but thanks to the ws bonus on mythics ls/tf will probably be as good with just tp bonus earring. ws attributes will matter though. Wf having lvl 3 element kind of matters sometimes. Having an always relevant aftermath is nice too

For physical maybe... the 10% ratt might help might not depends on setup and just how much this update changed. Also somewhat depends on ws/tp splits. Traditionally rngs have had a decent portion of their dmg being tp so better ODT might matter or not. That said for physical aeonic might be really good. Last stand is already the best physical marksmanship ws and tp heavily modifies it's dmg. Aftermath just icing really. Also looks awesome

Yeah part of the reason I was focusing on magical was cause at least on magical ws the game doesn't care if xbow or gun it's all the same. But the dot will still be a bit different

[dasva]

Mythics' DA/TA can proc on regular DA, TA and QA swings I believe. A regular DA could turn into a 5 hit or so if that is true. If the multiple hits can't proc on these, then Mythics' damage would fall.

The only OAX in the game that works with DA/TA/QA are from the old jailor weapons

[Cblade]

Ah, I misread that page I was reading due to it being early in the morning. Given DA and TA gear was not as prevalent when mythics came out, the proc rates made sense, but today there is so much gear for it that their aftermath is barely a boost other than for the acc or att boost. The da/ta/qa gear in the game currently have effectively cut the aftermath's strength in half.

[machini]

That's more or less how mythic aftermath sits at the moment.

[Domille]

The da/ta/qa gear in the game currently have effectively cut the aftermath's strength in half.


That's more or less how mythic aftermath sits at the moment.

I was having this complaint LONG before this update, over a year ago. THF had so much Multi attack already that the value of mythic aftermath was kinda moot. It almost didn't matter at all even a year ago. On top of the fact that the SA/TA bonuses do not stack, really obnoxious.

[machini]

I was having this complaint LONG before this update, over a year ago. THF had so much Multi attack already that the value of mythic aftermath was kinda moot. It almost didn't matter at all even a year ago. On top of the fact that the SA/TA bonuses do not stack, really obnoxious.

It's not new, I'll agree. It's just that this point, the fact that not only have they continued to ignore it, but that they've added insult to injury by upgrading Empyrean aftermath in the fashion they did, that's what's pissing me off so badly. Among other things.

[dasva]

I was having this complaint LONG before this update, over a year ago. THF had so much Multi attack already that the value of mythic aftermath was kinda moot. It almost didn't matter at all even a year ago. On top of the fact that the SA/TA bonuses do not stack, really obnoxious.

thf seems like a bad example though since Varja is one of the better melee mythics. The SA/TA bonuses are so huge anyways that they help ensure thfs can get the highest spike physical dmg in the game... assuming rudra's didn't already do that which was really the point of the weapon instead of the ao2-3 that made the weapons the best for most jobs. Empyreans might catch up now though availability is still horrendouse

[Avero]

Sorry might of posted this in 2 spots. One-handed Relics in offhand should provide at least the +attk stat, this needs fixed, it just seems to be a nonsense mistake gone on and never addressed. Empy can add +50stat as offhand but relics ie: Mandau/kikoku still dont give the +40/60attk (for those who dont care about the ws and am/ag - can still be a decent offhand)

[Dzspdref]

I think the part of it all that he mentioned and referred to sublimely, was how easy it is now to get the Aeonic weapons completed (with the Dominion monthly event and such, a group of 6~12 can all complete their Aeonics in under 2 weeks), while the previous RMEC ones took people SO MUCH TIME and work and dedication (months, years, and more...).
So the people that spent so much time and effort (and subscription monthly dues) in order to get "the best of the best" are mostly upset over this "oh we made everything easy for people, so let's make this easy (or easier) too" attitude.