I feel like Delve just made 90% of the Adoulin content irrelevant [Archive]

Masamune11

05-01-2013, 03:44 AM

I see what SE was "trying" to accomplish. They wanted to create a system where players were forced to progressively move from one tier of gear to another. That system can work as proven in other MMORPGS and it's a fantastic idea. Unfortunately, people are finding it very easy to skip a tier and move directly to Delve. Essentially any testing that was done for this has failed miserably. With Delve, you can repeat moderately difficult NM battles to earn enough currency to purchase gear that completely trumps anything that has ever been released before. Why repeat Naakual battles? Why purchase Bayld gear? Why do coalition tasks? Why do reives?

Prior to the release of SoA, your typical top gear came from Neo Nyzul, Legion, VW and Abyssea. Top weapons were R/M/E.

Upon the release of SoA, gear that could be purchased with Bayld was released. Some of these pieces (excluding the weapons) were better than prior released gear; some were worse. All in all, the bayld gear was just as good if not slightly worse than gear that had been released prior to SoA.

In addition to the Bayld gear, we were introduced to skirmish weapons and gear / weapons that dropped from Naakual NMs. It could be argued that many of these pieces of gear were better (if ever so slightly) than everything that has been previously released to this point. However the difference was minimal and there lies the problem. If the Delve content is designed for players with Naakual gear and the Naakual gear is barely better than previously released gear...there's a HUGE window of opportunity to skip Naakual fights in their entirety. When only one person needs to have defeated a Naakual to start a Delve you have problems. What's worse, the entire groundwork for the expansion that SE setup revolves around coalition system...which Delve completely ignores.

The new expansion is built heavily around the coalition system. The coalition system effects the rate people receive bayld, the defense of the Naakuals, gear that is available for purchase, buffs during reives, etc. Thus, it would make sense that any new content would still provide an incentive to "colonize." Delve does not. Naakuals are going to become a one and done. Why repeat them? The entire coalition system that SE established revolves around the Naakuals and they drop gear that is completely inferior to gear that is easy to obtain in Delve. Delve made colonizing and 90% of the expansion irrelevant.

Alhanelem

05-01-2013, 04:31 AM

Kojo

05-01-2013, 04:52 AM

Al, tell me something. All this fuss has been, mainly over one stat on each weapon; Damage. I've been using the GS as an example, Best you could get was 179 or so on Crobaci, which due to Ragnarok's hidden effects made it about on par with it, I'd assume, I own neither, to be honest. So, max we could get is 179 on a Crobaci, which jumped to 247 yesterday which is a 68 DMG increase. Now look at armor. Armor's equivalent to Damage would be Defense, Kariyeh Haubert has 79 Defense, Mikinaak Breastplate has 80. You see how defense is slowly scaling up, yet hovering abound a, IMO, decent range? Why such a jump in damage over defense? High damage, low defense, look familiar? (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dark_Knight)

detlef

05-01-2013, 05:10 AM

Did anybody expect Naakual and Skirmish weapons to be pushed to the side (violently, and with malice) a month into expansion?

Kojo

05-01-2013, 05:14 AM

Did anybody expect Naakual and Skirmish weapons to be pushed to the side (violently, and with malice) a month into expansion?

Considering the already high damage on them, I didn't expect them to ever be "obsolete". They sure as hell are now.

Masamune11

05-01-2013, 05:14 AM

Damane

05-01-2013, 07:48 AM

Did anybody expect Naakual and Skirmish weapons to be pushed to the side (violently, and with malice) a month into expansion?

I think what people dont get is that the Naakual and Skirmish weapons/gear are specificly for those people that lack a relic/mythic/empy weapon and still want to enjoy content like delve. They basicly bring them close to or on par with 99 relic/empy/mythic weapons in order to be able to bring somethign to the table instead of haveing to grind their way to a R/E/M to be effectiv and enjoy the new Expansion and delve. It levels the playerfield to participate in delve, this is nice and very good for returnign palyers, this also enables them to get things faster/quicker done form older content.

Hawklaser

05-01-2013, 08:11 AM

I think what people dont get is that the Naakual and Skirmish weapons/gear are specificly for those people that lack a relic/mythic/empy weapon and still want to enjoy content like delve. They basicly bring them close to or on par with 99 relic/empy/mythic weapons in order to be able to bring somethign to the table instead of haveing to grind their way to a R/E/M to be effectiv and enjoy the new Expansion and delve. It levels the playerfield to participate in delve, this is nice and very good for returnign palyers, this also enables them to get things faster/quicker done form older content.

So what happens when these new pieces of equipment become more common? How many of the new items are needed to make Delve relatively trivial? How long till it is possible for a few people to low-man delve to gear someone else up?

As once that happens, why would anyone do the old content? Only reasons I can see the old content being done is because people enjoyed it, or there are still relevant drops. Just have to look back at CoP with and without level caps to see how that works. It was a pain to get people to help out with portions they had already completed with the level caps in place, and now its just outlevel the content and burn through it to get Rajas.

With some of these new equipments supposedly being AH-able, just need to wait and farm gil to get one, and after that, will be even easier to just go destroy old content for only the best items for a slot.

Do we really want a game where only the most recently released content is relevant, and old content is only done for a couple of best in slot items?

Zagen

05-01-2013, 08:25 AM

Do we really want a game where only the most recently released content is relevant, and old content is only done for a couple of best in slot items?
How exactly isn't that how FFXI was before SoA? How isn't that how FFXI was before the level caps?

The only real difference now is how drastic the jump is and how fast it was implemented.

Demon6324236

05-01-2013, 08:31 AM

Got news for you, new gear usually makes some of the old gear irrelevant.Some, this crushed every single weapon in the entire game so far as I know in damage, the only ones left are Ryuno for DRG, and Apoc for DRK, everything else is gone.

Hawklaser

05-01-2013, 10:36 AM

How exactly isn't that how FFXI was before SoA? How isn't that how FFXI was before the level caps?

The only real difference now is how drastic the jump is and how fast it was implemented.

There is a difference between having already farmed an event for years, and it being relevant. If you have played WoW any, compare the longevity of its rewards in initial raids like Molten Core to rewards from Dynamis. And that is one thing a lot of people liked about FFXI, if you put in the work for something like a relic or mythic, they stayed good investments.

Now unless there is a way for Relics, Mythics, and Emp to go above or equal to this new gear, why would anyone do anything related to them? Can even add in all the magian trials as well outside of ones with hard to duplicate effects like - pet damage taken.

Consider this, the new low end 1h weapons, are on par with the damage of old 2h weapons. And the new low end 2h weapons are 20-30 damage above most R/M/E, while the new good ones are often 100 damage above R/M/E.

Tamoa

05-01-2013, 10:49 AM

Delve didn't just make 90% of Adoulin content irrelevant - it made 90% of ALL the game's content irrelevant.

Ophannus

05-01-2013, 11:14 AM

Camiie

05-01-2013, 11:50 AM

That's not a stepping stone. That's going from an anthill to Mount Everest.

Merton9999

05-01-2013, 12:04 PM

The purpose of all these increases is to be a stepping-stone system.

Step 1) Get NNI/Neo Salvage/Legion gear
Step 2) With all that gear beat Nakaauls and Skirmish to get better weapons.
Step 3) Use Skirmish/Nakaaul/Bayld gear to beat Delve.

The notion of beating Delve with just Legion and VW equips is ridiculous. These mobs are too powerful. Use the gear from before the expansion to incrementally increase your own power with new gear and work your way up step-by-step to acquire newer gear to beat Delve.

This sounds fine to me in concept, but I wonder if that progression will really only be a requirement for these top players that are challenging, and beating(?), Delve right now. Are the future adjustments Matsui referred already built in?

I don't know how the relative strength of the new weapons and gear compares to the difficulty of the Delve mobs. But I'm wondering if that relationship will end up like brews in Abyssea. In other words, to beat Rani and Shinryu the first time, you need a skilled team that's probably assembled a good collection of prior Abyssea items beforehand - atmas, atmacites, +1/2 Empyrean gear and weapons, etc. However, once a few people beat that stuff "legitimately", the cheap brew costs then trickles down into accessibility for everyone through your friends and noble shouters that brew the baddies for everyone else.

I don't mind this system personally. I had my share of dedicated time on FFXI but no longer have time for more than a couple hours a day. But I loved the hell out of Abyssea and was glad I could finish all the content and grab all the gear from the big guys with the help of the trickle-down brew effect in that short 1-2 hour a day span I had. And I was happy to praise the few people I knew that were part of the first-access crowd.

I'm curious to see if that's how it plays out here. After a few people get this new crazy gear, is it enough for those few to get wins and gear for others who stopped at empyrean +2? If that's the case, like many people said, the gear progression of requiring NNI, Neo-Salvage, etc. stops at the first few people, and others can simply skip it, not to mention anything else that's beaten by the Delve stuff.

Then again, the new gear could be balanced in such a way that you really do need 12-18 people that have the pre-SoA best stuff, even with a few guys that have the Delve equipment. While others are crying about their obsolete hard work, I'm mostly just curious.

Triffle

05-01-2013, 12:40 PM

I'm confused as to how taking months or even years to make a Relic, Mythic or Empyrian to 99 is a stepping stone to "Hey, I'll just make some gil and wait for this weapon to show up in the auction house."

Alhanelem

05-01-2013, 12:41 PM

Some, this crushed every single weapon in the entire game so far as I know in damage, the only ones left are Ryuno for DRG, and Apoc for DRK, everything else is gone.
The R/M/E weapons are being updated at some point. I just know all the people selling off their alex/currency/etc at these new weapons are going to regret it later.

Zagen

05-01-2013, 12:57 PM

There is a difference between having already farmed an event for years, and it being relevant. If you have played WoW any, compare the longevity of its rewards in initial raids like Molten Core to rewards from Dynamis. And that is one thing a lot of people liked about FFXI, if you put in the work for something like a relic or mythic, they stayed good investments.

I have played WoW though I haven't lately but I'm almost certain in saying nothing in WoW takes the amount of devotion a R/E/M does. Bringing up WoW would be relevant is SE had said "sorry guys R/E/M are old new now" but they didn't they said they will get updated. Patience is a virtue that seems lost on people lately.

Now unless there is a way for Relics, Mythics, and Emp to go above or equal to this new gear, why would anyone do anything related to them? Can even add in all the magian trials as well outside of ones with hard to duplicate effects like - pet damage taken.

I'm still saving for a relic and a mythic currently even though there isn't currently a way to update them simply because SE said they would and I don't mind waiting. I never expected magian weapons to be the king forever.

Consider this, the new low end 1h weapons, are on par with the damage of old 2h weapons. And the new low end 2h weapons are 20-30 damage above most R/M/E, while the new good ones are often 100 damage above R/M/E.

Yeah a lot of them are better at the moment but some are still worse because the R/E/M brought more to the table than just damage.

I'm confused as to how taking months or even years to make a Relic, Mythic or Empyrian to 99 is a stepping stone to "Hey, I'll just make some gil and wait for this weapon to show up in the auction house."

Can you make me "some gil" as it's pretty obvious the AH weapons require drops from the final delve bosses. If the "hardcore" gamers are struggling with just the "beginner" delve monsters what makes you think the drops will be cheap?

Zumi

05-01-2013, 01:06 PM

I would say WoW legendary weapons are similar to FFXI's empyreans, mainly they involve getting drops off a bosses in a raid for 2-3 months till you have enough to turn in to finish the weapon. Only difference is in WoW people know their legendary weapons will be trash come next expansion and aren't really mad when it happens because its expected since they do a gear reset every expansion. That is just how WoW works has worked for every expansion.

FFXI never has never had such an extreme upgrade in power like we see on the new weapons. Which is why people are somewhat upset over it. And the fact the dev team says stuff like they don't know if they have the manpower to put in a quest to make our r/m/e upgraded so we don't have to throw them away just adds fuel to the fire.

Triffle

05-01-2013, 01:07 PM

People aren't really struggling with it as few hours after the update happened there were already people on my server walking around with the new gear.

Hawklaser

05-01-2013, 01:19 PM

I have played WoW though I haven't lately but I'm almost certain in saying nothing in WoW takes the amount of devotion a R/E/M does. Bringing up WoW would be relevant is SE had said "sorry guys R/E/M are old new now" but they didn't they said they will get updated. Patience is a virtue that seems lost on people lately.

It took a while to get the gear for, and do the old 40man WoW raids. No problem with waiting on the information, but the problem of the new weapons isn't so much for those that currently have R/M/E but those that are currently working on them. As just consider the amount of time and/or gil one spends on obtaining one, and will need to compare that to the cost of the new AH-able weapons. So if you were someone working towards one, where is the better place to invest said time or gil when not much has been said about keeping R/M/E relevant?

Yeah a lot of them are better at the moment but some are still worse because the R/E/M brought more to the table than just damage.

And I understand there are a lot of other perks to current R/M/E than damage alone, but when the difference is upwards of 100 damage, I find it hard to see the R/M/E keeping up. Compare Ryunohige's damage of 151 and all its effects to 266 damage polearm with the same delay. And Ryo was considered one of the best weapons in the game. Granted the 266 one is likely to be hard to get, but that amount of damage difference is hard to make up in extra effects alone.

scaevola

05-01-2013, 01:24 PM

The notion of beating Delve with just Legion and VW equips is ridiculous. These mobs are too powerful. Use the gear from before the expansion to incrementally increase your own power with new gear and work your way up step-by-step to acquire newer gear to beat Delve.

the step-by-step process is:

1) DAT mine
2) deactivate
3) wait until SE decides what they want FFXI to be before I resub, which if prior experience with other MMOs serves as a model is "maybe a year from now over a weekend when my wife is out of town and I am drunk"

the idea that I would spend 30 million gil on a simulacrum for a chance at a weapon barely strong enough to hurt an NM I have to kill (in an 18-man alliance) exactly once to get a KI so I can farm plasm to buy the ACTUAL weapon I need is beyond laughable

I have played WoW though I haven't lately but I'm almost certain in saying nothing in WoW takes the amount of devotion a R/E/M does. Bringing up WoW would be relevant is SE had said "sorry guys R/E/M are old new now" but they didn't they said they will get updated. Patience is a virtue that seems lost on people lately.

the concept of spending months on the patient construction of one status symbol (gear or no) is not something any WoW player would find fault with on its face (they regularly do way more for way less reward (http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Insane)) but it makes exactly zero sense in a game with significant power resets every four months or so

Triffle

05-01-2013, 03:24 PM

It's actually quite easy to get the Rare/Ex items from Delve. It's a point system which you can easily farm up by killing the weak mobs in the zones. Basically only other requirement to get the items is to kill only one of the NMs. I've been told they are not that overpowered by some people who've killing them and can take from 10 to 20 minutes to kill. Basically this is easier than Naakual bosses. Even the non-augmented versions of these items are overpowered, so I can imagine what happens when you are able to beef them up.

Crusader81

05-01-2013, 05:56 PM

http://i40.tinypic.com/5aq4g2.jpg

I actually had to triple take a look at this, then rub my eyes, I don't even....

Anyone else see this too? Or am I hallucinating?

Asymptotic

05-01-2013, 06:06 PM

No I saw it

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32078748/Pioneers/ffxi_2013.05.01_02.16.19.png

Just FYI I've done Delve twice (only once entering a fracture for 15 minutes before wiping) and have 1/10 the plasm to buy that

Crusader81

05-01-2013, 06:13 PM

http://i42.tinypic.com/n2mutx.jpg

Lol

Crusader81

05-01-2013, 06:16 PM

http://i44.tinypic.com/34ni5ab.jpg

I don't even..

Kaeviathan

05-01-2013, 06:56 PM

I'm really upset that all the cool looking gears became statistically obsolete in this game in comparison against newer equipments. In my opinion, the new equipments are humiliating.

I mean, how does a Ninja go from this...
http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/4kkTKgNi40bX1KTN.jpg
Or this...
http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/kantoriU3rpHiCESj26.jpg
Or even this...
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110305223009/ffxi/images/a/a3/EAF_NIN.png
To this ; ;...
http://www.playonline.com/ff11/adoulin/imgs/template/common/content/skirmishes/delve/equip/expansion/2.png?1367401409284

Umisame

05-01-2013, 08:43 PM

I'm really upset that all the cool looking gears became statistically obsolete in this game in comparison against newer equipments. In my opinion, the new equipments are humiliating.

....

http://www.playonline.com/ff11/adoulin/imgs/template/common/content/skirmishes/delve/equip/expansion/2.png?1367401409284

Because we will get better equipment, this is second set of adoulin and i think SE will add cooler sets. They said some time ago that they were going to add tiers of equipment/weapons, maybe one day we will see weapons with 500-999+ dmg xD

Monchat

05-01-2013, 08:55 PM

I dont understand their philosophy on mage gear lol.

Anything less than MAB+300 on the SMN and BLM staves is total a garbage. Most DDs got a weapon at least 2x more damage. If you look at MNK/PUP, you standard H2H is Brawny adragas (D38) and the standards delve is D101..

Also who wants to do skirmish now seriously. Outdating content 1 month after release, really? Before anyone could actually get 9800 shards for the ghasty stones +2? or figure out the system..

Mahoro

05-01-2013, 09:34 PM

The MAB gear may not match a DD's output, but some of the new mobs can be more safely taken down by jobs like SMN. So the gear is still a big deal.

Kaeviathan

05-01-2013, 10:28 PM

I sure do hope so. But still, this doesn't encourage me to obtain this gear and utilize it as a stepping stone in order to obtain those better gear were hoping for or actually do anything with it.

hiko

05-01-2013, 10:58 PM

Also who wants to do skirmish now seriously. Outdating content 1 month after release, really? Before anyone could actually get 9800 shards for the ghasty stones +2? or figure out the system..

that is the 1st stupid part, even for SE

Most DDs got a weapon at least 2x more damage.
and that the 2nd stupid part
ex lvl75 bravura dmg 99
lvl99 dmg 158
razorfury dmg 259

in one update weapon get as big boost as lvl75->99 !

Vold

05-01-2013, 11:00 PM

I'm really upset that all the cool looking gears became statistically obsolete in this game in comparison against newer equipments. In my opinion, the new equipments are humiliating.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11/adoulin/imgs/template/common/content/skirmishes/delve/equip/expansion/2.png?1367401409284Da faq is this noise, Japan.

Xerius

05-02-2013, 12:14 AM

This is why it's usually wise to wait an update or two before jumping right into all the new endgame. This is the kind of thing that tends to happen. Although I think they should have done RUN and GEO's AF1, AF2, AF3, LB gear/quest-lines and added merit points before adding more new endgame or even added more quests and missions.

Tamoa

05-02-2013, 12:21 AM

That ^ actually would have made more sense in my opinion, and was what I expected.

Kojo

05-02-2013, 12:36 AM

Alhanelem

05-02-2013, 01:29 AM

http://i44.tinypic.com/34ni5ab.jpg

I don't even..
OK, that's it. they just pissed all over my empyrean staff. I want REVENGE

Also who wants to do skirmish now seriously. Outdating content 1 month after release, really? Before anyone could actually get 9800 shards for the ghasty stones +2? or figure out the system..Well, they said you'd need skirmish gear to do Delve.

Camiie

05-02-2013, 01:54 AM

It took a while to get the gear for, and do the old 40man WoW raids. No problem with waiting on the information, but the problem of the new weapons isn't so much for those that currently have R/M/E but those that are currently working on them.

This is the boat I'm in. I started a relic a while before the expansion hit. I feel like I've been duped. I'm just lucky I didn't get very far though I've still poured a decent chunk of time and gil into something that's now essentially worthless.
If only I'd known, but my knowing wouldn't have been in SE's best interests and those are the only interests they're concerned with. "Are we making money?" YES. "Is there some Pandemonium Warden style bad press going on?" NO. "Woo hoo! All's right with the world!"

Horadrim

05-02-2013, 01:55 AM

Alhanelem, there's a reason I merely referenced "Adoulin" content in the title and not all previous content. It's expected that older content should be surpassed. This was a mere month. The biggest issue i have is that all we have now with the expansion is Delve. There's little reason to do coalition tasks, earn Bayld, etc.

...

Go read this:

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui
Delve and Content Level

We will be implementing Delve in the end of April version update.

This content will allow you to obtain equipment and enhance them without having to fully complete the content (e.g. defeating the boss), so there is a wide range in the content level (*) between the beginning and the boss.

Give it a shot, and if you feel it's kind of tough, defeat the Delve NMs, obtain the equipment you can get from points and then enhance them. Or try to get the rewards from Skirmish and the equipment that can be bought with Bayld.

Also, in regards to the content level for the Skirmish content which has already been implemented, it is on par with that of the new Salvage and Nyzul Isle Uncharted Investigation, as well as the equipment you can receive through Bayld.

If this also feels a bit too tough for you, try your best to obtain gear from the new Salvage content and through reives. Once you've procured equipment from these, it should feel much easier than when you began to do the new Salvage content.

This new content is being released in a state that has been adjusted for the top players, but we plan on making adjustments to this content for players challenging it afterwards once we implement newer end-game content.

Also, in regards to the content level, the development team is currently trying to zero in on the precision through trial and error, so I would like to continue to post explanations on this.

*Please read my post here for my explanation on content level and the level design for content of Seekers of Adoulin and beyond.

Bayld gear was never required. It was something for people who don't do NNI, Salvage, or VW to boost their gear by mixing and matching with AF3+2.

BAYLD GEAR WAS IRRELEVANT WHEN IT WAS ADDED.

It is only a slight upgraded (and only in some slots, for certain jobs) from AF3+2 and was meant to allow people to look and say "Well, I can forgo getting COR AF3+2 pants or PUP AF3+2 feet because the bayld gear for that slot covers good bases for me.)

Coalition and Skirmish is filler/intro content -- 100% designed just to give non-hardcore players means to acquire gear suitable to start working towards the new end game content. That's why Skirmish weapons are comparable to RME and why they'll be adding upgrades to RME -- because they have to separate out the ultimate weapons and make it harder to acquire the top echelon so that it is less alienating for newer/less serious players to not have them. lv. 90 RME are easy, but after that it takes a good amount of work and/or money. Adding upgrades that require more effort to 99+ RME will make people a little less judgmental of folks who don't have them, I'd hope.

Campaign and Assault gear were more or less the exact same scenario -- it was just gear to give you something to work on before they added the real end game content. I imagine there's a lot more to the Delve system to be added, especially with regards to upgrading RMEs and how far the new gear will go.

OK, that's it. they just pissed all over my empyrean staff. I want REVENGE

Well, they said you'd need skirmish gear to do Delve.

They said that Skirmish/Coalition gear would help people who have difficulty in NNI/Salvage do the new content. It is Requirement-1 gear. VW/NNI/Salvage/RME is requirement, AF3/Skirmish/Coalition is the -1 version.

Speaking of which, I'd like to see some hard parses and calculations comparing lv. 99 RME to the Skirmish weapons. People went on their tirade about them, yet I haven't seen a single set of data suggesting they are actually 100% better/by how much they are in any given scenario. I'd say that difference will tell you how much of an upgrade RMEs will get.

Kojo

05-02-2013, 02:29 AM

Bayld gear is irrelephant!

Camate

05-02-2013, 03:52 AM

Greetings,

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the recent version update.

With the release of the end of April version update, we've implemented Delve and have completed the battle content that was planned for the launch of Seekers of Adoulin.

I feel that the flow of content that we planned where players would take on higher tiers of content (content level) by progressing in stages is not going as smoothly as we'd like.

Specifically, I would like to adjust the fact that it's difficult to do colonization reives and lair reives in small numbers, as well as the fact that it is difficult to start Skirmish.

For the time being, Delve (the boss battle) has been set as the highest content level.

With this current state, I feel priorities should be placed on implementing and adjusting content for low-man or soloing more than adding further higher tier content, and I would like to work hard while heading in this direction so that a larger amount of players can enjoy the game.

Kojo

05-02-2013, 04:22 AM

Greetings,

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the recent version update.

To be honest, he should probably focus on pleasing the rabid, ravenous masses and work on updating Relics, Mythics, and Empyrians, figuring out how to patch said upgrades in later.

Here's a tip for Matsui; Players .dat mine, you want to please the players, whip up upgraded relics and throw them in the .dats, even if they cannot yet be obtained. Also, never use lack of manpower as a reason.

Umichi

05-02-2013, 04:32 AM

I think there is a concept behind delve the developers either didnt tell us or got lost in translation. it seems delve was intended for higher tiered up players but all players of the game can compete at different levels and play sat the same time for the same rewards essentially... the fighters are fighting and the colonizers are doing their thing and we all get rewarded for it cause the stuff is everywhere. there are different ways of aquiring the same lewt based on how fast you wanna go thats how fast its gonna be.. i know i won't be getting that OP Drg lance anytime soon and im already building relic lol

Zumi

05-02-2013, 04:35 AM

They went with the WoW philosophy this time around. When you release an expansion there is a gear reset. With weapons that have 100 more damage on them no use even using our old r/m/e stuff. All your old stuff and old content is no longer relevant as well.

They never done this before with other expansions which is why some people are upset by it.

Umichi

05-02-2013, 04:36 AM

and FYI only some players .dat mine. the amount of players represented on the forums is only a percentile of the amount of people who play the game... If SE is trying to bring players back wouldn't it make sense to make sure the people who don't min/max are pleased while giving the harder people all the rediculous OP shit their hearts desire? Isn't that the essence of FFXI and most ff series?

Kojo

05-02-2013, 04:37 AM

Umichi

05-02-2013, 04:37 AM

Umichi

05-02-2013, 04:39 AM

so many different ways to play a job have been introduced over the years lol but min/maxers imho crushed all that.

Kojo

05-02-2013, 04:39 AM

plenty of gear resets on this past. cap release was a gear reset, abyssea was a gear reset. FFXI term of a gear reset differs from other MMO's

Pre-abyssea items are still- WERE still useful at 99, either because they were simply great items, or they could be augmented to keep relevance.

Oceanz

05-02-2013, 04:44 AM

Got news for you, new gear usually makes some of the old gear irrelevant. If it didn't there'd be no reason to do it or get it.

New content is generally released tuned with hgiher difficulty. You get old best gear to be able to challenge the content to get new best gear, then later you use the new best gear to have a prayer at getting newer best gear.

It does create a bit of a power creep issue but at the same time i hate content that offers nothing but sidegrades/macro pieces. i don't want to have to lug around 70 pieces of armor to play a single job at an event.

I'm so certain your actual job and profession is to be on these forums and defend the Dev team regardless of what they say and do. They could delete your own character for lolz and you would defend them and find some way of arguing you had it coming.

It just infuriates me more that SE needs to hire people to "balance" the opinion on their forums - because i am just so certain you are paid to white knight everything SE says and does.

Umichi

05-02-2013, 05:32 AM

Here lemme chime in tar!

To be fair SE does own his character so if they feel like deleting it it's their choice...

Karah

05-02-2013, 05:35 AM

I'm so certain your actual job and profession is to be on these forums and defend the Dev team regardless of what they say and do. They could delete your own character for lolz and you would defend them and find some way of arguing you had it coming.

It just infuriates me more that SE needs to hire people to "balance" the opinion on their forums - because i am just so certain you are paid to white knight everything SE says and does.

ALL OF MY LIKES EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Kaeviathan

05-02-2013, 06:00 AM

Greetings,

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the recent version update.

I wanted to do the new content from the expansion since it's release, but that all changed since The update. It's not the level of dificulty that bothers me, but rather that the new content hasn't really inspired me to "want" to do any of it.

I don't mind the damage increase given to weapons that currently surpasses any R/M/E, SE must have their reasons (I recently obtained my first ever legendary weapon after playing the game for more than six years). But I think the SUDDEN inclusion and presentation of these new weapons was not an appropriate decision. This gives the impression that the time and effort that developers gave in creating colonization and reives was in vain. Again, not a good decision even by a company that's been making games for years, these resources went waste unless an update is implemented in respond to this loss. Probably if these Weapons and equipment were given more time before the new update was Introduced, these items wouldn't have felt to be a waste. I WANTED TO TEST THE GREAT KATANA THAT ENHANCES SKILLCHAIN, BUT THE NEW CONTENT HAS MADE THAT WEAPON OBSOLETE IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. Now, let's say I do the new content and obtained new weapons or gears introduced in the new update, should I be concerned that these equipment become obsolete in a short period of time as well?

Aesthetically speaking, new equipments are unappealling, and I've been very vocal about this. Not sure if the eastern culture disagree, but I'm pretty confident that most of us with western influence will find this to be true. Remember, it's not all about stats, appearances is also considered.

But I'm REALLY glad to hear that the looting system has changed prior to the accustomed extremely rare drop from VW. I am also pleased that there are no atmacites, TARGET WEAKNESS, or temporary items involve in any of these events (Or is there?).

Kaeviathan

05-02-2013, 06:04 AM

My apologies for the post to be long and unorganized, but I typed this via cellphone with limited battery supply. I'll reorganize it later when I get home.

Umichi

05-02-2013, 06:40 AM

But if you look at it from their perspective they said this will be a lvl 99'ers paradise the whole continent is intended to be endgame for all levels and manners of play. And they recently stated that they are done with high end content for now and plan on working on low man stuff for example I'm every interested in monstrosity and moogle island thingy.

Masamune11

05-02-2013, 09:51 AM

Kraggy

05-02-2013, 03:50 PM

so many different ways to play a job have been introduced over the years lol but min/maxers imho crushed all that.
Got to totally agree with that, min/maxers infest all MMOs of course, but FFXI was seriously damaged by them, more than the others I play.

scaevola

05-03-2013, 10:37 AM

Tokiro

05-05-2013, 02:07 AM

I remember when I wanted to get to Sky because there were new mobs and quests and other content that I could only dream about. Of course, there was equipment, too, but I will never forget the day I arrived in that floating castle. The same thing happened with Sea. It was such a struggle to get the missions finished and I had to farm gil and go at NMs to get the stuff I needed to even have a stab at them. But I wanted to, because I wanted to see the new areas and see how the missions ended.

Why do I want to do the Adoulin content? I don't. I don't want the strongest weapons. Why? Because other than in that content, there is no need for them. Yeah, I can run around Jeuno or Western Adoulin looking really cool and getting gasps of 'He's got that new piece!' But, I am not interested in that.

As a rant, I have to let SE know (even if it is on a forum that I doubt anyone will have the time to read judging by the lack of thought that went into the new content), that I hated RPGs until I played FF11. I never even touched one. FF11 was different for me because it had a backbone. Things were a-brewin' and if I didn't get gear good enough to kill that dragon, heads were going to roll. It was fun, but it was important. Now the only thing that is important is the gear. Get new disc, download update, get gear, run around the place with said gear. I don't want gear just to get more gear.

End of rant.

JackDaniels

05-05-2013, 03:12 AM

Camate

05-23-2013, 03:15 AM

Greetings everyone :)

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui where he outlines some upcoming adjustments to the Reive system.

Matsui here.

At the end of April I made the following post:

With the release of the end of April version update, we've implemented Delve and have completed the battle content that was planned for the launch of Seekers of Adoulin.

I feel that the flow of content that we planned where players would take on higher tiers of content (content level) by progressing in stages is not going as smoothly as we'd like.

Specifically, I would like to adjust the fact that it's difficult to do colonization reives and lair reives in small numbers, as well as the fact that it is difficult to start Skirmish.

For the time being, Delve (the boss battle) has been set as the highest content level.

With this current state, I feel priorities should be placed on implementing and adjusting content for low-man or soloing more than adding further higher tier content, and I would like to work hard while heading in this direction so that a larger amount of players can enjoy the game.

In order to smooth out the flow of content that we planned where players would take on higher tiers of content (content level) by progressing in stages, we’ve made adjustments already so that Skirmish statue pieces can be obtained via Colonization Reives and Lair Reives.

In regards to Reives, we’ve received various feedback and I would like to inform you all today of how we plan on adjusting the system since nothing was mentioned as of yet.

Reive Adjustment Plan

Making it easier to enjoy
Create an easy to understand difficulty level

We will be making adjustments based on the above two points.
Below is an outline of the adjustments.

Reive Adjustment Outline (Next version update portions)

Evaluation method changes 1
Physical damage, magic damage, healing, and other separate evaluation aspects will all be grouped into one consolidated evaluation category. This will make it easier to get evaluated.

Evaluation method changes 2
We will be making changes so that evaluations can be accumulated and experience points and Bayld can be earned depending on the amount of HP reduced on bosses and obstacles from the accumulated portion. (The portions evaluated will be subtracted from what you have accumulated.)

Changes to Reive momentum bonus requirements
To go along with the changes to the evaluation method, we will be making changes so that separate action accumulation is consolidated into one.

Addition of Reive momentum bonuses
We will be adding new types of momentum bonuses.

Monster behavior adjustments
We will be revamping monster behavior. AoE abilities and knock-back abilities will be included in this.

Yahse Hunting Grounds and Ceizak Battlegrounds reive adjustment
Adjustments will be made to lower the difficulty the most for the Colonization and Lair Reives for these two areas.

Foret de Hennetiel and Morimar Basalt Fields reive adjustment
Adjustments will be made to lower the difficulty for Colonization and Lair Reives in these two areas.

Wildskeeper Reives adjustment
We will be lowering the amount of Bayld needed to purchase the required key items. Currently we are planning the below:

Ceizak Battlegrounds: 50,000
Foret de Hennetiel / Morimar Basalt Fields: 75,000

For adjustments to come after the above, we are currently looking into doing things such as implementing a system where NPCs join Colonization and Lair Reives, allowing adventuring fellows to be called in Adoulin areas as well as increasing their level cap, and hiring mercenary NPCs in order to help out solo and low-man play.

Also, in addition to reive adjustments, we are working to implement the Bivouac adjustments mentioned the other day, additional items that can be purchased with Bayld, and overall colonization adjustments in the next version update.

Luscia

05-23-2013, 04:37 AM

I like the sounds of this for the most part, especially that the adventuring fellows will get a lvl increase (though it seems weird since they have always been below you in lvl), but why are the KIs for Wildskeeper Reives sp expensive? I know Bayld isn't that hard to obtain, but it still requires a tremendous amount of time to farm it all and I can't be the only one who might want do other things than farm Bayld.

Vivivivi

05-23-2013, 04:47 AM

Wonderful! 50-75K is far less daunting than 100. I'm all for reductions in AOE and knock back, and in general, all of the points outlined here!

Rosalie

05-23-2013, 05:30 AM

Demon6324236

05-23-2013, 05:52 AM

Ceizak Battlegrounds: 50,000
Foret de Hennetiel / Morimar Basalt Fields: 75,000Just make them all 50k please, I understand the other two areas are further away but really it does not make sense, the quality of reward is the same, and they are all Naakuals, and if nothing else Morimar is a complete pain to get to seeing as you have to do like 5 Reives on the way there since (at least on Phoenix) we have only had the first Waypoint for the last week or so, and I doubt that is changing soon. Foret is not as bad as Morimar but it is still harder to reach than Ceizak by far. As I said, I feel they should all cost 50k, not 100k.

Besides that I have a question as well, right now when we get a Coalition to its max personal rank we get a 5k discount on the KIs, this is for each Coalition, meaning if you cap out all 6 its -30k you have to pay. Now at 100k total cost that's a 30% reduction, but with it at 50k it means a 60% reduction all the way down to only 20k a run, and on top of that its also going to mean you can enter practically free if you do one and win because of how much Bayld you obtain. So my question is, will any of this change?

Makenshi

05-23-2013, 05:54 AM

I am glad they are lowering the Bayld for Wildskeeper. Its not delve level but the gear you get is still half decent and it would be nice to be able to do it a bit more often.

Mindi

05-23-2013, 06:11 AM

Besides that I have a question as well, right now when we get a Coalition to its max personal rank we get a 5k discount on the KIs, this is for each Coalition, meaning if you cap out all 6 its -30k you have to pay. Now at 100k total cost that's a 30% reduction, but with it at 50k it means a 60% reduction all the way down to only 20k a run, and on top of that its also going to mean you can enter practically free if you do one and win because of how much Bayld you obtain. So my question is, will any of this change?

Pretty sure the price has nothing to do with your coalition rank, its the Imprimaturs spended and fame or something like that. When they introduced lower points i had 2 coalitions at (current) max rank, and i had 95k KI, and i still only have 2 at max rank and now i pay 90k. Raised 3 other coalitions to rank 2 though

Demon6324236

05-23-2013, 06:37 AM

Pretty sure the price has nothing to do with your coalition rank, its the Imprimaturs spended and fame or something like that. When they introduced lower points i had 2 coalitions at (current) max rank, and i had 95k KI, and i still only have 2 at max rank and now i pay 90k. Raised 3 other coalitions to rank 2 thoughI am only going by the people who I know and what BG says (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Reive#Wildskeeper_Reive).

After receiving the barometer, you can purchase one-time use key items which allow for entry into a single Wildskeeper Reive for 100,000 Bayld each (this fee can be reduced in 5,000 Bayld increments depending on the players Adoulin fame and coalition standings).Which from what I hear means with level 4 rank in a Coalition it goes down by 5k for each one, if fame effects it as well then it might be possible that you got a fame level, basically as though for Fame 1 you can have 1 discount if you have enough level 4 Coalitions, with Fame 2 you can have 2, and so on. It is simple speculation but possible never the less. In any case, I still would like to know if this will effect the discounted prices given via Coalitions.

Edyth

05-23-2013, 07:42 AM

I approve of these Reive adjustments, especially the insinuation that craklaws' and matamata's standard attacks being AoE will change. There isn't enough room to be out of the craklaws' AoE in the I-8 Sih Gates colonization reive unless the craklaws are all right up against the roots, and the people who can't take the craklaw attacks are away from the roots. It just takes one craklaw being fought anywhere except right at the roots to wipe an entire ragtag reive group in a few seconds.

Regarding monster behavior adjustments, could you consider having the monsters at certain quest-blocking reives not be aggressive? It would be nice to safely clear the aforementioned I-8 reive safely solo if necessary so that I could complete Vegetable Vegetable Revolution.

Masamune11

05-23-2013, 08:52 AM

Demon6324236

05-23-2013, 09:09 AM

Camate, is the development team looking into an incentive for players to rank up in multiple coalitions? As of now, a player can spam the same coalition tasks over and over again, optimizing the amount of bayld they earn, while earning discounts to bayld items without ever having to take up a new coalition.KI price reduction is based on the number of Coalitions, so if you do only the same one over and over then you get no additional reduction.

Zhronne

05-23-2013, 04:04 PM

Just make them all 50k please, I understand the other two areas are further away but really it does not make sense, the quality of reward is the same
Tbh yeah, it doesn't really make sense.
I mean I would understand "new" naakuals to cost more than the old ones, but the current 3 ones should have the same price regardless of where you fight them.

Altough if this 50-75 new price "stacks" with the reduction you can get from other sources (currently I 'm at 90k, not 100) then it's gonna be awesome, 40-65! At that price I'd probably do Wildkeepers Reive multiple times.

As for the rest it's all good news and I'm happy but there is one thing that they should have been working on and yet I don't see it. That's a "dynamic" difficulty for Reives.
Its difficulty should scale according to the number of players. There should be "tiers", and after a certain amount of players is reached, monsters should become stronger, or pop faster, or something like that.
The game can clearly see at each moment how many players there are who received the Reive mark, so I don't see why n ot going this way.
If they just make Reive easier/harder they will still be situationally inbalanced. Sometimes too easy (i.e. boring, you won't even manage to engage mobs because they'll die too fast) and sometimes too hard/frustrating.

Monchat

05-23-2013, 07:24 PM

The main problem is that it's easier to earn the Delve gear than the lower level gear Naakual / Skirmish gear.

Any player can get into a leech party and defeat 6 delve NMs and obtain all the key items they need to have the ability to purchase all delve equipment. Then the leech players can get into a medium size party and fight easy Delve NMs over and over again until they have enough points to buy delve equipment / weapons.

Or they could spend hours upon hours earning 100k bayld to fight a naakual for the chance to obtain the gear they want, rinse and repeat many many times, spend days upon days fighting mobs for skirmish drops and weeks upon weeks trying to earn upgraded skirmish weapons all of which are completely inferior to the equipment and weapons one could easily purchase with Delve.

To make matters worse, Delve has absolutely zero connection to the coalition system. 90% of the expansion is the coalition system and it was made irrelevant within a month.

To be honest, I felt everything was going smoothly before delve was added. You should have just made skirmish easier to enter and added more Naakual fights. Delve made everything else in the game meaningless.

In addition, why release uber powerful weapons before having developed and implemented the system to upgrade your relics, myths, emps and coin weapons? Wouldn't it make sense to release them at the same time? All of these problems that are occurring were completely foreseeable.

This. There is no progression in their system. People will go straight to delve gear, skirmish and WR gear is much harder to get and has mediocre rewards (compared to delve), and I'm not even talking about salvage where 1 piece takes at least week to get. Most KI are doable with AH/abyssea DDS (in alliance). Using R/M/E DDs only means you need less people (1 party of R/M/E can farm all KIs on their own).

So why do wildskieper reive? The lag there is insane, the shark sucks with his 20' range aoe death (seriously?) and the super evasive bee, its not even fun to do, and too long, and you need usually much more than 18. At least the T-REX is easy and dies relatively fast even with few people. And skirmish: too random on the +2 stones. By the time your PT gets a +2 stone for everyone, they would have time to farm 3+ delve weapons with plasm farming. The unaugmented delve weapons are much better than +2'd skirmish gears....

Mirage

05-23-2013, 10:06 PM

Greetings everyone :)

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui where he outlines some upcoming adjustments to the Reive system.
For adjustments to come after the above, we are currently looking into doing things such as implementing a system where NPCs join Colonization and Lair Reives, allowing adventuring fellows to be called in Adoulin areas as well as increasing their level cap, and hiring mercenary NPCs in order to help out solo and low-man play.

It is good to hear that you are going to increase the fellow NPC level cap to 99. However, please realize that this alone might not be enough. the adventuring fellows are extremely weak compared to player characters. Even a lv 90 adventuring fellow set to fierce attacker with a greataxe or great katana will have a lower damage output against lv85 enemies than a level 75-80 player character would have against a level 85 enemy. Even their strongest WSes are very weak, and they don't even seem to want to use their best WSes very often anyway.

Furthermore, the healer and soothing healer NPCs tend to burn up their MP on unnecessary healing and debuffs, leaving them with no MP to cure you when you really really need a cure. They have no way of restoring MP on their own either, except waiting for the player to /heal, which is impossible if you are fighting. Healer and Soothing Healer NPCs should have auto-refresh. At level 99, they should probably regain at least 4 mp per tick. Furthermore, if you equip a healer NPC with a staff or a club, it is pretty dumb that they never use MP-recovery WSes when they are out of MP.

I hope these points make it pretty clear that just increasing NPC level cap to 99 alone might not actually make them useful for anything that matters. They need additional tweaks to be useful.

Lotto

05-23-2013, 10:09 PM

There's just one problem to the things you're planning : it won't change anything. No matter how low the KIs to join Naakual fights will cost it's currently not worth it because Delve gear is already more powerful, easier and faster to obtain.

I'm really starting to wonder if you took the time to discuss about all of this before releasing all those new piece of equipements and battle systems.

Mirage

05-23-2013, 10:40 PM

yeah, if you want skirmish gear to matter now, skirmish needs to be an event where 6 random players fresh out of abyssea with medium-tier AH gear can smash things to bits and be guaranteed 1-3 weapon drops. The event should also throw moderate amounts of plasm at you (25-50% as much plasm-per-minute as a decent delve run, perhaps?), to give people incentives to help new players after they have acquired their own skirmish weapons.

-edit-

Also, make the Coalition weapons actually good, guys. Make the damage in reives the standard DMG rating.

Demon6324236

05-24-2013, 01:17 AM

The problem with scaling content like they are trying to do is the fact no one in their right mind wants to go out, spend a week farming for a WK Reive, just to spend a week or two spamming Skirmish for a slightly better weapon, just to spend a day farming Delve, and each step of the way completely trashing the thing they just got last event. Anyone in that situation would simply jump straight to the end if possible, it takes 1/10th the time and your reward is twice as good... I am sure they thought it would work, people would do it how they planed, but the truth is that we only do that kind of thing with actual gear, and only when its really hard to get or really expensive gear, weapons, not so much, not with that level of work at least, I admit some WK gear is good for stuff, Skirmish though, its nothing but weapons so far as I know, which means that event is dead, completely.

hiko

05-24-2013, 01:43 AM

This. There is no progression in their system. People will go straight to delve gear, skirmish and WR gear is much harder to get and has mediocre rewards (compared to delve), and I'm not even talking about salvage where 1 piece takes at least week to get. Most KI are doable with AH/abyssea DDS (in alliance). Using R/M/E DDs only means you need less people (1 party of R/M/E can farm all KIs on their own).

So why do wildskieper reive? The lag there is insane, the shark sucks with his 20' range aoe death (seriously?) and the super evasive bee, its not even fun to do, and too long, and you need usually much more than 18. At least the T-REX is easy and dies relatively fast even with few people. And skirmish: too random on the +2 stones. By the time your PT gets a +2 stone for everyone, they would have time to farm 3+ delve weapons with plasm farming. The unaugmented delve weapons are much better than +2'd skirmish gears....

you miss a point: for a lot of people a +1 augmented skirmish weapon is better than what they have(Emp85-90 or ToM), and cant buy delve weapon even if they farmed 10^10 plasm because they don't get invited in successfull TIV-V clear.

The problem with scaling content like they are trying to do is the fact no one in their right mind wants to go out, spend a week farming for a WK Reive, just to spend a week or two spamming Skirmish for a slightly better weapon, just to spend a day farming Delve, and each step of the way completely trashing the thing they just got last event. Anyone in that situation would simply jump straight to the end if possible, it takes 1/10th the time and your reward is twice as good... I am sure they thought it would work, people would do it how they planed, but the truth is that we only do that kind of thing with actual gear, and only when its really hard to get or really expensive gear, weapons, not so much, not with that level of work at least, I admit some WK gear is good for stuff, Skirmish though, its nothing but weapons so far as I know, which means that event is dead, completely.

disagree, since delve weapon are Rare skirmish's are the best offhands until RME99 upgrade

Tsukino_Kaji

05-24-2013, 01:51 AM

On Siren, you can already see that the vast majority of the populous already has the required delve KIs and no longer shouts for anything other then plasm farms. If you missed the first wave, and did not aquire your KIs at the start, you're pretty much SOL already. This is one of the things that needs to be looked at.
I suggest, dumbing down the force spawned counterparts. There's no need for them to have the same drops as they do in delve or even be of the same power. They should be changed to being able to be taken down by a party of 6 or so depending on the tier. The only important aspect of them is that they drop the same KI. This will give access to those who missed out.

Demon6324236

05-24-2013, 02:01 AM

disagree, since delve weapon are Rare skirmish's are the best offhands until RME99 upgradeOk, for off-handing yes, its good, but that's it really. Delve is not as hard as you make it out to be, I have friends who are not uber pro DDs or anything who shouted for and got their wins, anyone who wants the weapon enough can go out and look up a strat, throw a party together in Adoulin, and go kill the NM, more than enough people doing wins right now that it should easily fill up.

Godofgods

05-24-2013, 02:23 AM

designing content to be done step by step is nice in theory. But everyone will simply do everything they can to jump to the last stage with the most minimal effort applied.

Dreamin

05-24-2013, 02:36 AM

The way they should have done regarding all those gears/weapons to make them 'sequences' are to make the lower tier item a required item in order for one to receive the higher tier item. i.e. the Black Belt quest or Magian trial style.

Unfortunately the cat is out of the bag already and there's no going back.

Daemon

05-24-2013, 03:24 AM

Alhanelem, there's a reason I merely referenced "Adoulin" content in the title and not all previous content. It's expected that older content should be surpassed. This was a mere month. The biggest issue i have is that all we have now with the expansion is Delve. There's little reason to do coalition tasks, earn Bayld, etc.

Do coalition to obtain access to wildkeeper reive, earn bayld so you can buy temp ki to play it. Looks like some nice gear can be obtained from it. I think that ki cost 100k bayld to play it once so I'm sure that will keep people busy for awhile.

Even if you purchase delve gear from npc, you still need to collect, buy airelixers to upgrade them, I don't see everyone getting this done in 1 month unless you live in ffxi all day everyday =p And in order for people to play Delve you need to bring your A-Game, be well equipped. I read the synthesis materials used to create those godly weapons are dropped off final boss in each delve area. Well before SE made recent change in previous update, I only had the privilege to see 1 boss, but we ran out of time and did not engage it. Out of 18 people alliance, even if you reach final boss, win fight and synthesis material drop, how many parties do you think it will take before you get it?

SE already posted something about REM upgrades in a future update. Well if basic requirement to obtain those upgrades is to have REM 99 then that's a lot work even if you have delve weapons/gear- but atleast having those gears will help you reach goals faster. So that can be one reason to go back to the old content.

AF, Relic, Emp for Geo and Rune hasn't been released yet so that's something to look forward to.

Can't blame SE if people choose to play the game too fast. Games such as mmorpg are not meant for people to beat the game in 1 day, it's there for you to socialize, meet awesome people from all over the world and have some entertainment together with friends, family etc.

It's not like ffxi is coming to an end, before was Abby, vw, today happens to be Delve, there are many people who are not on the same level as you. But atleast you have power to get around the game better than others.

What's the point in rushing? Enjoy the game :)

I appreciate that the developers are doing their best on a daily basis to code and fix bugs, give us several expansions and new content. Other games barely give you as much as FFXI. If only developing games was easy then I'm sure companies like SE wouldn't have to hire a team of programmers, graphic design artist, cinema and movie, web design, music composers, marketing and promotions, go through a chain of command to get the authority and the go ahead on new ideas, you get the idea right?

I've seen so many posts from people threatening, blaming, complaining, cursing out the developers rather than being thankful and appreciating that they gave us something. Have a little faith and be patient, in the end SE has always done their best to make everyone happy, and we all know that it's impossible to make everyone happy lol.

Motenten

05-24-2013, 03:43 AM

Also, make the Coalition weapons actually good, guys. Make the damage in reives the standard DMG rating.

I was actually writing up some commentary on the Coalition weapons just before Delve was released and made it all irrelevant. Several of the weapons are OK; without the latent they're roughly comparable to AH options, and with the latent they're a bit better (with a few exceptions). The dagger in particular is poorly done, though, as even with the latent it's still worse than AH options.

If Delve hadn't been introduced, these would mostly be perfectly decent new baseline weapons, and useful for taking into Wildkeeper Reives (and Skirmish, if that counts for activating the latent) for chances at better stuff.

The Coalition/Wildkeeper/Skirmish progression is actually all fairly well laid out. However, Delve came in and just crushed everything else, while also being completely divorced from the requirements progression (bayld from reives to access Wildkeepers; Skirmish pops dropping from reives (now) or other general Coalition activities), so....

If they had made it so that access to Delve fractures required items that dropped in Skirmish and Wildkeepers instead of free-roaming mobs, I think that would have put a sufficient lock on progression to keep people working through the standard lines. You'd still do lots of reives to get the Skirmish pops, which means you also get Bayld for Wildkeeper runs, and doing both to get ready to do Delve runs.

Zumi

05-24-2013, 04:24 AM

Daemon

05-24-2013, 04:42 AM

Ok, for off-handing yes, its good, but that's it really. Delve is not as hard as you make it out to be, I have friends who are not uber pro DDs or anything who shouted for and got their wins, anyone who wants the weapon enough can go out and look up a strat, throw a party together in Adoulin, and go kill the NM, more than enough people doing wins right now that it should easily fill up.

I've yet to join any party that could beat the final megaboss in delve areas. Plasma farming and NM hunting is not hard but I think the point of obtaining the npc delve weapons and upgrading them plus having the right gear sets and strategy and kill it before time runs out is the real challenge that people are overlooking, I think you only have 15-25 minutes to defeat the final megaboss and that's why fracture walls are timed. It's the crafting materials needed to create the weapons that surpass the ones npc sells that end game players will be interested in. Haven't seen much info yet and haven't seen or know anyone that has the craft weapons but looks like it could take a long time to achieve it.

Masamune11

05-24-2013, 04:45 AM

KI price reduction is based on the number of Coalitions, so if you do only the same one over and over then you get no additional reduction.

That was what we were told by the developers in these forums. I wish that was the case. But countless others have gotten the price down to 90K from only spamming pioneer coalitions. It's all over BG. They told us one thing, but didn't implement it that way. Spending imps on different coalitions would appear to matter not.

Mirabelle

05-24-2013, 04:47 AM

Daemon

05-24-2013, 05:22 AM

Im not being mean but this is the reason you see parties wipe out at events. I would never want a whm with no skills to be main healer in my party especially at big events. If I found out any member in my party leveled up to 99 in one day I would question if that person even knows how to play the job? A first glance at the gear you wear can only tell so much.

1.People that are not well geared need to spend the time and effort to get the proper equipment/ gear sets (Not just 1 or 2). Why should people even be thinking about obtaining end game items if they don't even have the basics down first?
2. All players wanting to participate in end game events or any events for that matter should have skills capped. That's a given.
3. Erase Abby from your mind and always bring food, medicine, warp scroll, reraise eaaring and never wait to depend on others to do it for you. How many times a WHM waisted 150mp and several seconds to raise you when that time and mp could have been well spent curing the tanker/DD and other members of the party? That type of risk is one good reason to put the entire party in danger.
4. Think about the team and how you can do your best to contribute your part without bringing everyone down because you were not ready.
5. Promote awesomeness, not gimpness :p

To be the best you need the best. Status of your accomplishments are highly noticeable when you bring it.

Hawklaser

05-24-2013, 05:31 AM

If your not a well geared DPS you can just level your cor, brd, whm in 1 day in abyssea. I would pick cor personally since it doesn't even take much gear to play, join shout groups for KIs, join farm groups buy weapon for whatever undergeared DPS job.

1. Level Cor in Abyssea
2. Buy Hunters, Chaos, Fighters roll (Learn to roll close to 11)
3. Join delve KI shouts
4. Join delve farm shout
5. Buy weapon for undergeared DPS job.

As a COR main I really hate ideas like this. I've spent alot of time and money to play this job to its utmost and hate being replaced by dimestore COR's with 3 rolls and a stoertebeker.

I don't even play COR and I dislike this idea too. As if get enough people jumping on to a job like COR and barely doing any gearing for it, eventually people will stop inviting them. A COR without all their rolls is a lot like a WHM without all the -na's and barspells. The sad thing is a lot of supports can get by with a lot more slacking than DD jobs, but if get enough people jumping to supports while not gearing correctly and having all of the spells even they can start getting a stigma of being a bad invite. First would hopefully be specific players but eventually it can and will taint the job too.

Demon6324236

05-24-2013, 06:48 AM

I've yet to join any party that could beat the final megaboss in delve areas.Who said anything about those weapons? Who said anything about those NMs at all? The problem is non-Delve being worthless.

Plasma farming and NM hunting is not hard but I think the point of obtaining the npc delve weapons and upgrading them plus having the right gear sets and strategy and kill it before time runs out is the real challenge that people are overlooking, I think you only have 15-25 minutes to defeat the final megaboss and that's why fracture walls are timed. It's the crafting materials needed to create the weapons that surpass the ones npc sells that end game players will be interested in. Haven't seen much info yet and haven't seen or know anyone that has the craft weapons but looks like it could take a long time to achieve it.Yeah, but still, you are talking about using Delve things to get Delve things, I am talking about why Delve is the only relevant content now, who will do Skirmish for a weapon when you can do Delve in a fifth of the time for a reward that is twice as good? If the rewards were closer in power, it may make some sense, but the gap, makes Skirmish as an entire event a waste of anyone's time now, the only jobs with any use are DW jobs for off-handing, and even then, its limited because of finding people to do it with you and the fact its a DW job in the first place, meaning you probably will not fight much you would actually need those weapons for.

Calatilla

05-25-2013, 08:37 AM

As a COR main I really hate ideas like this. I've spent alot of time and money to play this job to its utmost and hate being replaced by dimestore COR's with 3 rolls and a stoertebeker.

^ This, if you're going to level a job, even if its just for this one purpose, at least put some effort into it. Ya`ll giving us a bad name. Also, you would need more than just 3 rolls even for Delve, DD`s aren't the only people who get rolls off me in Delve pt`s.

Zumi

05-25-2013, 08:54 AM

I don't even play COR and I dislike this idea too. As if get enough people jumping on to a job like COR and barely doing any gearing for it, eventually people will stop inviting them. A COR without all their rolls is a lot like a WHM without all the -na's and barspells. The sad thing is a lot of supports can get by with a lot more slacking than DD jobs, but if get enough people jumping to supports while not gearing correctly and having all of the spells even they can start getting a stigma of being a bad invite. First would hopefully be specific players but eventually it can and will taint the job too.

It's the way the game is designed. It takes very little gear to put out support buffs and buff people. While on the other extreme it takes a lot of gear to put out damage as a damage dealer job. Delve content always has a time-out factor if you can't put out X amount of damage you are going to lose.

Also in reality cor will only use like 4 or 5 rolls and most of them will be unused since you can only have 2 up at a time.

Its one thing that SE didn't do well was make gear effect support jobs.

Okipuit

05-25-2013, 09:49 AM

Just make them all 50k please, I understand the other two areas are further away but really it does not make sense, the quality of reward is the same, and they are all Naakuals, and if nothing else Morimar is a complete pain to get to seeing as you have to do like 5 Reives on the way there since (at least on Phoenix) we have only had the first Waypoint for the last week or so, and I doubt that is changing soon. Foret is not as bad as Morimar but it is still harder to reach than Ceizak by far. As I said, I feel they should all cost 50k, not 100k.

We are thinking about a universal cost of 50,000 Bayld for Wildskeeper Reive key items. (This is still under consideration and not final.) The points needed will be reduced based on fame. Also, drop rates will not be affected as a result.

Okipuit

05-25-2013, 09:59 AM

Regarding monster behavior adjustments, could you consider having the monsters at certain quest-blocking reives not be aggressive? It would be nice to safely clear the aforementioned I-8 reive safely solo if necessary so that I could complete Vegetable Vegetable Revolution.
We will be adjusting Sih Gates as well as Moh Gates in order to address this. It will be difficult schedule-wise, but we will do our best to implement the adjustments for the two at the same time.

Alpheus

05-25-2013, 10:03 AM

Thank you very much for responding.

Masamune11

05-25-2013, 10:13 AM

We are thinking about a universal cost of 50,000 Bayld for Wildskeeper Reive key items. (This is still under consideration and not final.) The points needed will be reduced based on fame. Also, drop rates will not be affected as a result.

Can you let us know how fame is currently calculated for keyitem point reduction?

Okipuit

05-25-2013, 10:45 AM

Hey everyone,

Producer Matsui would like to elaborate a bit further on the adjustments that the development team has planned for Reives:

I don’t understand what is meant by “so that it will be easier for solo players and smaller groups of players.”

（Since I believe that adjustments for knockback effects and effect ranges are going to be implemented for reasons other than the one quoted above）

Lowering the levels of weak monsters
Increasing the time between repops of weak monsters
Decrease the number of weak monster pops
Lower the HP of obstacles or reduce physical damage reduction

If the above adjustments are going to be made, I believe that the reives must also be adjusted so that they spawn more frequently.

We will prioritize the adjustments of HP, Attack and DEF settings of monsters, as well as knockback effects and effect ranges.

These are the problems I have encountered with the reive system

The enemies’ attacks are too strong, so it is difficult to complete this content with a small number of players unless you have an Ochain paladin.
If you have too many players, the content ends too quickly. As such, you end up spending more time waiting for the next occurrence than you did playing the content.

I agree, and it seems like the problem will be solved.

However, since doing so may result in 2 occurring at a faster rate, we believe we would also have to make the following adjustments:

Shorten the time between colonization reive occurrences
Adjust lair reives (which are being forgotten) so that they are comparable to colonization reives
Be able to disperse into Sih Gates and Moh Gates, Etc.

We will look into adjusting the time between colonization reive occurrences separately.

We understand why you would like colonization reives to occur more frequently in specific zones and locations.
However, as more zones are added, we are not sure that shortening the reoccurrence timer will always result in positive results.

In other words, we do not want to encourage users to stay in certain locations repeating the colonization reive there. Rather, we want users to adventure to various locations where they are able to enjoy various reives.
In addition, we would like users to have a reason to return to older reives even after new ones are implemented, as well as a reason to play during off-peak hours.

Considering the above points along with implementation plans of future quests, we will do our best to include the adjustments to Sih/Moh Gates in the next version update.

Because of the unclear implementation date for the reduction in points needed for the wildskeeper reive key item, players will be unsure whether they should wait to participate in this content. As a result, I think that it will be more difficult to find other players to participate in wildskeeper reives. Please let us know when this adjustment will be implemented so that we can plan accordingly.

I apologize that I cannot provide a more precise date, but we are planning for implementation in the early summer.

I wish that appealing NPCs would participate in reives.
In both campaigns and besieged, there are appealing NPCs.
Appealing NPCs motivate players to do their best to protect or help them.
Boring NPCs like Bastion from Abyssea may help you strategically, but they do not make the game more enjoyable.

Personally, I think it would be great if there was an NPC that confidently used weaponskills one after the other.
Of course it would be amazing if there are accompanying quests!

I understand that it is difficult to build characters in NPCs, but I would appreciate it if you could consider it.

I will send this to the world team for inspiration.

I agree that I would like the NPCs that join you in battle and mercenary NPCs to have a lot of character, so I will be sure to let the team know. Please give the team your support!

Edyth

05-25-2013, 11:50 AM

Okipuit, can you let the development team know that the ideas they have for improving Adoulin content are great? From allowing us to call our adventuring fellows to reducing the potential devastation of spinning craklaws and matamata, they're saying everything that I want to hear.

Once Adoulin is straightened out, it would be nice if the development team takes a look back at some older content suffering with playability issues, like Assault, Emptiness Notorious Monsters (still capped at 75), and even Campaign Ops that require 3+ people to enter but could be beaten with 1 (like Cut and Cauterize).

AndytheRaven

05-25-2013, 06:25 PM

Hmm, would it be possible to make reives to some extent like abyssea mobs.

I was thinking something in terms of when a reive spawns it will be as it is now, but the longer it stays out the weaker the mobs become. so the revies that "have been forgotten" will be easier to clear when someone just happens to want to pass by. Either way hope update fixes it one way or another

Merton9999

05-25-2013, 09:37 PM

I will send this to the world team for inspiration.

I agree that I would like the NPCs that join you in battle and mercenary NPCs to have a lot of character, so I will be sure to let the team know. Please give the team your support!:

This is what stood out to me. Part of what made Campaign and Besieged enjoyable was seeing cool NPCs, mobs and their abilities. Reives I don't mind so much as far as battle tactics, but killing bugs just doesn't compare to the scope and heroism factor of defeating beastmen NMs, lamia, and hydra, alongside some inspiring allies.

Thanks for looking into all these changes, especially the last part!

Cowardlybabooon

05-26-2013, 02:56 PM

As long as waypoints keep going inactive, we will have to do reives to get places. Sounds like the ideas are all on the right track. I really like matsui and what he is doing with the game. I agree though that the bayld reduction for wildskeeper reives needs to just happen now. Start with the base amount and add the fame thing later. No way is the base amount hard to program.

Makenshi

05-26-2013, 07:12 PM

We really need to get skill ups in reives. Can this please be added?

Glamdring

05-27-2013, 05:48 AM

The NPCs and the off-peak playing times issues go together, especially for those attempting to play on support role jobs. I'm lucky enough that I can play during NA peak times, many are not. In that case, Reives can be a content killer-rather annoying when they are also a content requirement. Get on it.

It's all fine and good for players to say "find a party", kinda like when you tell a homeless person to "get a job", if you haven't applied for a job recently allow me to point out the 2nd question on a job application-address; it's the same thing for most of those parties, "R/M/E/Reive-Skirmish-delve gear or GTFO". The fact the player in question is attempting to get the gear never seems to enter someone's mind (such as it is); perhaps the reason you have open party slots is because of your unrealistic requirements, in that case enjoy your shouting for the next hour. My hope is the player not as far along can accumulate a pile of bayld with others similarily situated, while you stand around shouting with your thumb up your *** receiving nothing.

However, for the "noobs"-you aren't. Reives aren't that difficult, at least the early ones. I've been part of beating them without a party (but with 2 other players there) on my brd/dnc. They were ugly wins, but they were wins. You can certainly go there with less than ideal jobs/gear and still come out with bayld. Stay until you are about 50k off the 99 XP cap, then head back to aby to recap. You'll have a Reive weap before you know it, especially if you invite your peers. The people complaining about their difficulty here are elitists who are botherred because they can't solo them as easily as they did things in Aby. Don't get me wrong, they have a legitimate gripe about the colonization rate falling too rapidly to access the deeper content, much like we all used to complain about the conquest in Campaign; to their minds lower players should be keeping that colonization rate up to accomodate their playing of the later content, and that is a large part of why you are being shut out. So my suggestion is remember those who didn't shut you out when you did things the hard way, and play with them, or the next generation of lowbies that you can be decent enough to help along, and /blist those that did shut you out-apparently they don't need or want help anyway.

OmnysValefor

05-27-2013, 10:12 AM

We really need to get skill ups in reives. Can this please be added?

Yes, please, but do not allow them in Wildskeeper Rieves please. While doing a naakual the other day, I cast a few dia's on a fodder, and didn't get a skill (i'm not far from capped) so assume I can't.

I thought for a moment "Boy, it'd be nice if..." and then pictured people afk swinging staves as they waited for a few people to get them the KI.

Babekeke

05-27-2013, 10:27 PM

I thought for a moment "Boy, it'd be nice if..." and then pictured people afk swinging staves as they waited for a few people to get them the KI.

Surely this beats the current predicament, where people just AFK, and aren't swinging!?

Camiie

05-27-2013, 10:42 PM

As a COR main I really hate ideas like this. I've spent alot of time and money to play this job to its utmost and hate being replaced by dimestore COR's with 3 rolls and a stoertebeker.

Then shouters either need to be less selective about which DD they take (eg. Delve DD Only), or more selective about which healers/support they take.

Babekeke

05-27-2013, 10:46 PM

I was surprised when I got into a T5 Delve shout, that out of the 3 bards, I was the only one with Daurdabla. Shouters are almost certainly not being picky about which support they take. Nor are they even aware of what buffs they're asking for most of the time...

3 bards using SV on all parties: 1 does 3 x minuet, 1 does 2 x madrigal, 1 does 2 x march. Aside from the fact that SV victory march with +3 march in gear will cap magic haste along with haste spell, there was also a SCH using embrava... go figure.

hiko

05-28-2013, 02:06 AM

I was surprised when I got into a T5 Delve shout, that out of the 3 bards, I was the only one with Daurdabla. Shouters are almost certainly not being picky about which support they take. Nor are they even aware of what buffs they're asking for most of the time...

3 bards using SV on all parties: 1 does 3 x minuet, 1 does 2 x madrigal, 1 does 2 x march. Aside from the fact that SV victory march with +3 march in gear will cap magic haste along with haste spell, there was also a SCH using embrava... go figure.

@ least you had a brd rotation

OmnysValefor

05-28-2013, 03:48 AM

I was surprised when I got into a T5 Delve shout, that out of the 3 bards, I was the only one with Daurdabla. Shouters are almost certainly not being picky about which support they take.

Definitely correct in regard to bard. As long as noone steps up to replace you, you could show up in nothing but a lamia horn, and people would probably take you. COR is nowhere near as forgiving but people will darn near farm you seals beforehand if you're a bard.

Now, I'm not saying shouters should be requiring a geegollyhorn or harp in cases where it's not needed (some T5 groups/comps need bard rotations, some do not), but people just don't care as long as they get march.

Went to a Kurma the other day and sat for 15 seconds while the bard wrote a pianissimo macro. Nothing major, was just funny. It wasn't a macro for anyone, he just didn't have the ability macro'd.

It's no better than the Aegis/Ochains that don't know what supertanking is, or the whms who have 230 healing skill and don't care enough to skill it and show up /rdm.

Surely this beats the current predicament, where people just AFK, and aren't swinging!?

Nah, people selfishly eating mana while they whiff/feed tp at the expense of others in hard content is the worse of the two, imo.

Xtrasweettea

05-28-2013, 07:42 AM

Then shouters either need to be less selective about which DD they take (eg. Delve DD Only), or more selective about which healers/support they take.
I will just repost what I posted in another thread here. It should explain why shouters shout like they do. Please note this was related to why shouters are shouting for RMED and seem to require DDs to have them.

It's called business!

The DD situation is "bad" now because shouters want to be able to get the most Plasm per trip as possible. It is no different than trying to get the most kills per set of playtime for Voidwatch or the most EXP per hour when Meriting on Colbri.

This isn't selfishness, it's business. The shouter knows that he or she isn't trying to get the most EXP/Plasm/Kill/Gil per hour for his or her own selfish needs (not always), he/she is trying to get the most for the hardest to fill jobs: support (and now PLDs). Support and mage jobs are not always the most entertaining jobs, they require the most attention to play, and require higher than average reaction to play. DDs do not necessarily require such high requirements: they don't need to look at other player's health bars, they don't need pay attention to TP moves that give status affects to other players, and they don't need to keep the group buffed almost 100% of the time. Most of the DD's job duty is on auto-attack. The differences alone make the DD jobs more appealing and mage jobs unappealing to most players. It's obvious when we see the large number of DDs compared to the number of support.

We have an oversupply of DD and an under-supply of support. So, in order for the shouter to get best support he or she can, he or she is going to need to appeal to them. Since there is no way to measure the skill of a player without knowing the player themselves, the easiest way to measure "skill" will be requiring the DDs to have RMED. This restricts the number of DDs, but potentially increases the number of currency/exp/kills per trip/pop/run. This appeals to the under-supplied support jobs.

This is called "supply-side economics". It is working here.

Now to stop the issue that is Hawklaser brought up about progressive credentialism (Quote: "As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times.") that is created because of supply-side economics of our job economy, players will need to do five things:
1. Play a support job
2. Start their own shout group and they can set their own criteria
3. Join a LS that doesn't require RMED for events.
4. Try to convince the support job players to reduce their currency/exp/kill per hour for the same amount of work as he or she would be doing if he or she is being "paid" more per trip/pop/run.
5. Ask SE to make AH equivalents (as Hawklaser had suggested)

#1 and #2 are doable. #3 might me harder. Good luck with #4. #5 could happen.

Now, this can put put into terms with crappy support. Eventually the number of people jumping onto support jobs to "fill the roles" will decrease the "rarity" of support jobs, making their value drop. Eventually, shouters will be able to either lighten their grip on DD requirements or increase their support job requirements. I have already seen shouts for BRDs who "know how to pull."

Camiie

05-28-2013, 08:05 AM

And you get your 30k piece of gear in 4 runs instead of 5. Whoop de doo.

Xtrasweettea

05-28-2013, 08:36 AM

And you get your 30k piece of gear in 4 runs instead of 5. Whoop de doo.

That's one less run that someone has to do for that piece of gear. That's one round sooner to the next piece of gear or Airlixir that person can purchase.

I will gladly "whoop de doo" when my valuable time is saved, even it is saved by one "run". Just to note: one run isn't just the 45 minutes in the event, but also the time to shout for members, the cost of supplying oneself for the run (echo drops, food, etc.), and travel. So, that 45 minutes could be turned into two hours or more. You bet I want the most out of one run. As a person who plays BRD almost full time, I will play the market (unless it is a LS event, then LS determines everything) and get the most available per run.

Demon6324236

05-28-2013, 09:48 AM

1 run adds up admittedly, its 1 less run till a weapon, but what about people like me? I need 5 pieces of gear and a weapon, not only that, but I need them all at 15 because half of them are of no use to me till that level, so I need Airlixirs too, and I also need some Boss drops, which I will likely not get without buying them. Add up all that Plasm and you get around 800k Plasm that I need for just my base gear alone, not counting the 6 level 15 pieces of gear's worth of augments. 800k Plasm at 4k a run is 200 runs, that is 150 hours worth of Delve, if you are more selective on jobs, and say we get, 6k a run, now its only 150 runs, 112.5 hours worth of Delve, I saved nearly 38 hours worth of farming because DDs were of a higher quality, and kills were 50% faster. Some of the best runs I have been in have been hitting 8k Plasm, some of the worst have been 4~5k Plasm, so its not all to unrealistic to say people are being picky for a reason. It seems like 1 run to start, sure, but if you add up all of the farming they will ever do, it becomes much more than 1 less run they are doing for things.

I am by no means saying I agree with being so selective, in some cases I think it is very stupid or at least very bad for people who are trying to get their first Delve weapon, after all, if you have no RME, and will never make a RME99, it seems very stupid to have to make a Relic or Emp just so you can do 5 Delve runs and 1 NM so you can use a Delve weapon. Its just that trying to say its 'only 1 run' is not quite right, its very inaccurate to say its only 1 run when many people will want to level their weapons/gear, or need multiple pieces.

Tarquine

05-28-2013, 08:46 PM

I find it most bemusing and amusing when people shout for "R15 D weapon only" - "Arma COR only" - "Ochain PLD Only" - "3+ song BRD only" - in the hopes that they will pull in more Plasm per hour, but then spend 1-2 hours shouting to fill the spots.

saevel

05-28-2013, 10:43 PM

Most of the DD's job duty is on auto-attack.

This is one of the worst things said, EVER. Please do not repeat this lie.

Being a proper DD requires an extremely high level of focus and attention to detail. A DD needs to have situational awareness of the entire battle-space and keep that awareness as they switch targets or rotate through JA's / gear sets. You need to focus on the target, especially if it's an NM and constantly watch what it's doing so that you can react appropriately. It requires the ability to make split second decisions and react to a changing environment at near light speed. And you must do all this while standing point blank in front of something with tons of sh!t going off all around you.

I can easily tell good DD's from bad DD's and very little of it has to do with gear. Though the good DD's tend to take pride in their gear sets.

Xtrasweettea

05-29-2013, 12:06 AM

This is one of the worst things said, EVER. Please do not repeat this lie.
It isn't a lie, Saevel. Most of a DD's functions are on auto-attack. DDs do not need to hit a button to swing their weapon upon every cooldown like a mage has to do for their spells in order to do the basic function of their job (whether it be curing, buffing, pulling with a song, sleeping, etc.). DDs have it pretty easy for their main function, the game gives it to them with auto-attack.

Being a proper DD requires an extremely high level of focus and attention to detail. A DD needs to have situational awareness of the entire battle-space and keep that awareness as they switch targets or rotate through JA's / gear sets. You need to focus on the target, especially if it's an NM and constantly watch what it's doing so that you can react appropriately. It requires the ability to make split second decisions and react to a changing environment at near light speed. And you must do all this while standing point blank in front of something with tons of sh!t going off all around you.
This is more true for support jobs than DDs. All payers SHOULD have situational awareness of the battlefield around them, whether the are facing a monster, facing a wall, etc.

Rotating JAs is easy to do and keep up compared to Haste cycle, Refresh cycle (if you are in a party that requires it), curing, removing ailments, sleeping links/pulls, calling out pops, pulling, stunning (if the event requires it), etc. Support jobs require faster decision making times than DDs have to. It is the truth. The difference between support and DD decision making is that support jobs are responsible for other people before themselves, DDs only need to worry about themselves half the time. On top of that, DDs know that they have someone to keep them alive. So what you stated really pertains to support jobs more than DDs.

DDs AND support should be swapping to their appropriate gear sets for different situations, JAs, WSs, spells, etc. The community lets support jobs give a free pass on gear swapping most of the time because of the rarity of support jobs. This doesn't mean it is correct, but this is allowed due to the job supply.

I can easily tell good DD's from bad DD's and very little of it has to do with gear. Though the good DD's tend to take pride in their gear sets.
The same falls to support jobs also, so what's your point?

jake3614

05-29-2013, 05:03 AM

Hey everyone,

Producer Matsui would like to elaborate a bit further on the adjustments that the development team has planned for Reives:
Here's a thought going forward:
Why not launch with MORE/FASTER content at the start (which is what so many are asking for, so they can do other content with the Bayld), and as new content opens up, scale the existing back to promote player progression to new areas.
Instead, updates are done in reverse fashion that most players who partake in the content have said repeatedly is not conducive to the situation or style of gameplay at all.
I just don't understand after having the exact same complaints with Beseiged, Campaign, and Bastion about frequency, difficulty and accessibility why new content is still launched in this manner, causing players to complain/give feedback that is already obvious and then it's ramped up to the state of quality it should've been at launch.

Glamdring

05-29-2013, 07:57 AM

I am by no means saying I agree with being so selective, in some cases I think it is very stupid or at least very bad for people who are trying to get their first Delve weapon, after all, if you have no RME, and will never make a RME99, it seems very stupid to have to make a Relic or Emp just so you can do 5 Delve runs and 1 NM so you can use a Delve weapon. Its just that trying to say its 'only 1 run' is not quite right, its very inaccurate to say its only 1 run when many people will want to level their weapons/gear, or need multiple pieces.

IF they beef 99 RME to be comparable to a delve-sidegrade-as seems to be mentioned in some of these posts that is 1 less item. In fact, since RME is more closely linked to the job using the weapon that "sidegrade" may in fact be superior to the generalized Delve augments. Until we see the boosts we can't actually say for certain, but just pointing out all may not be as hopeless as it seems.

Now the bad news, most of us are playing more than 1 job these days, so your calculations need to be multiplied by however many a player actually uses. the only good news is you don't have any "item equipped" requirements, so you can do it on any job the group allows you to use. Funny, many of us have been begging for years for a points-based end-game drop system so we don't have to luck into a drop, then luck in to a group that will let us play our rdm as an example for the upgrades, now that the game is in its end days we finally get it. Time to go gnaw on my own liver...

Tsukino_Kaji

05-29-2013, 12:58 PM

Look at the bright side, when SE finaly figures out a way to bring VW back, you'll all have plenty of stones.

Karah

05-29-2013, 02:10 PM

Being a proper DD requires an extremely high level of focus and attention to detail. A DD needs to have situational awareness of the entire battle-space and keep that awareness as they switch targets or rotate through JA's / gear sets. You need to focus on the target, especially if it's an NM and constantly watch what it's doing so that you can react appropriately. It requires the ability to make split second decisions and react to a changing environment at near light speed. And you must do all this while standing point blank in front of something with tons of sh!t going off all around you.

I can easily tell good DD's from bad DD's and very little of it has to do with gear. Though the good DD's tend to take pride in their gear sets.

I don't really want to get into a whole third party arguement deal here, but yeah, really DD means autoattack and just watch the screen, most of the time.

SC switches all your gear in response to events, all you do is hit a ws macro and go back to whatever else you were doing. Granted that's not true for everyone, but a good portion.

In a general sense, you can tell who does and doesn't give any effort, there isn't (much) middle ground, it's either full time gear, or sc macros.

For either of those scenarios it's auto-attack and "afk". (not literally, but figuratively)

Mirage

05-29-2013, 08:16 PM

You can use extended macros as well, instead of using spellcast.

Camiie

05-29-2013, 08:47 PM

Look at the bright side, when SE finaly figures out a way to bring VW back, you'll all have plenty of stones.

You mean in 5 years when they shoehorn in Voidwatch II where we can upgrade our pulse gear to content level 150 by collecting a new type of paper that will invariably share space with logs? Dude, I'm totally there.

Tsukino_Kaji

05-30-2013, 02:39 AM

You mean in 5 years when they shoehorn in Voidwatch II where we can upgrade our pulse gear to content level 150 by collecting a new type of paper that will invariably share space with logs? Dude, I'm totally there.I know, I can't wait either. ^^
Crossing my fingers for Neo Abyssea still.

saevel

05-30-2013, 09:13 PM

I don't really want to get into a whole third party arguement deal here, but yeah, really DD means autoattack and just watch the screen, most of the time.

SC switches all your gear in response to events, all you do is hit a ws macro and go back to whatever else you were doing. Granted that's not true for everyone, but a good portion.

In a general sense, you can tell who does and doesn't give any effort, there isn't (much) middle ground, it's either full time gear, or sc macros.

For either of those scenarios it's auto-attack and "afk". (not literally, but figuratively)

No it's not f*cking auto-attack. Please stop spreading that utter bullsh!t. I prove this every single time I play this game. There is a gap between mediocre and high end DD's and it's not one based on gear.

There are DD's who do exactly as you say and they often have decent to high gear, and I beat them every time. Typically by 30~50% though sometimes by more then double. Their gear is decent enough, the wide gulf is because their simply not playing fast enough. Their being reactive instead of proactive. They wait till they see 100TP to hit their WS macro when on the server their already at 120TP (packet delays and high haste mean your one swing ahead of what your TP says). They don't line themselves up with the next target so that they don't put their weapon away. Their not tracking the BRD's movements and don't know where things are and are stuck taking a few seconds to orientate themselves and move to the next mob. All sorts of little things like that add up quickly. NM's are a whole different matter entirely, they actually require skill to kill vs just knowing how to do TP burn. One of the most common mistakes I see is waiting until your WS animation is done before switching to your TP gear. WS's are instant use and your attack round is only paused 2s after activation server side. Notice I said server side, because the WS is instant at the server, by the time you see your gear blink and the first frame of the animation the WS has already happened and damage has been calculated. It's imperative that DD's change back into their TP gear before their attack round timer starts back up again which tends to be in the middle of the WS animation. DD's who wait are doing one to two silent attack rounds in WS gear.

This is neither the time nor the place to discuss SC's shortcomings when it comes to melee.

Prestorian

05-30-2013, 10:13 PM

Honestly op I agree with your statements. I can't imagine how people feel working hard towards a certain something then it becoming obsolete for the current time.

I'm on a different boat. I recently started playing ffxi and I find it overwhelming. I already got 2 jobs at 99 and getting a third shortly. I find it very confusing and time consuming trying to catch up to where people are. There seems to be so much going on it gets very overwhelming trying to do one thing at a time. I feel like once I get to delve people will already be two contents ahead of me.

People are still joining ffxi for the nostalgic feeling without realizing how much stuff they need to get done in order to be ready for delve. You need to have amazing gear which can only be attained by having groups of people with you. I already know a few people who recently quit because their job has been rendered useless, weak argument but sure enough it was all they needed to quit.

Xtrasweettea

05-31-2013, 12:45 AM

No it's not f*cking auto-attack. Please stop spreading that utter bullsh!t. I prove this every single time I play this game. There is a gap between mediocre and high end DD's and it's not one based on gear.
Sorry, you can't say "no auto-attack" when the majority of the DD job function comes from auto-attack: damage and effective TP accumulation. It is not buffalo chips, it's the truth.

The gap between mediocore and high end support jobs are also not just based on gear. So, what's your point?

There are DD's who do exactly as you say and they often have decent to high gear, and I beat them every time. Typically by 30~50% though sometimes by more then double. Their gear is decent enough, the wide gulf is because their simply not playing fast enough. Their being reactive instead of proactive. They wait till they see 100TP to hit their WS macro when on the server their already at 120TP (packet delays and high haste mean your one swing ahead of what your TP says).
You still need to be engaged and auto-attack on to do this. Can't swing without it. Knowing when to properly WS requires attention and skill. That is a player ability, not a DD only ability.

Their not tracking the BRD's movements and don't know where things are and are stuck taking a few seconds to orientate themselves and move to the next mob.
This goes for all players, not just DDs. The art of spatial relationships (knowing where to stand for BRD songs) is lost thanks to the years of VW and Abyssea. Abyssea didn't require full-time songs and VW you were stationary most of the time, unlike back in old Dynamis or roaming Merit parties. Most of the player-base needs to relearn spatial relationships. This is not just a DD responsibility.

NM's are a whole different matter entirely, they actually require skill to kill vs just knowing how to do TP burn.
The skills part (such as stunning certain TP moves or spells, turning to avoid gaze attacks, knowing specific quirks of each enemy, etc.) is related to the player and just not necessarily the job. Good players will do their best to educate themselves with resources available or do trial and error. This is not a DD only thing. The abilities they have (such as DRK's Weapon Bash and Stun spell) may be job related, but that is about it. The majority of the skill comes from the player.

Beyond the specific skills needed for DDing on specific enemies, it is really just auto-attack and WS. It isn't much beyond on that. I know you hate having a job you may love being reduced down to its basic function, but it's the truth. It's no different than WHMs main function is curing, BRDs main function is buffing with songs, etc. The difference between the WHM and the DD is that the DD's main function (dealing damage) is done for him or her automatically (except for WSs) as long as he or she is within range and facing the right direction.

saevel

05-31-2013, 07:39 PM

Sorry, you can't say "no auto-attack" when the majority of the DD job function comes from auto-attack: damage and effective TP accumulation. It is not buffalo chips, it's the truth.

The gap between mediocore and high end support jobs are also not just based on gear. So, what's your point?

You still need to be engaged and auto-attack on to do this. Can't swing without it. Knowing when to properly WS requires attention and skill. That is a player ability, not a DD only ability.

This goes for all players, not just DDs. The art of spatial relationships (knowing where to stand for BRD songs) is lost thanks to the years of VW and Abyssea. Abyssea didn't require full-time songs and VW you were stationary most of the time, unlike back in old Dynamis or roaming Merit parties. Most of the player-base needs to relearn spatial relationships. This is not just a DD responsibility.

The skills part (such as stunning certain TP moves or spells, turning to avoid gaze attacks, knowing specific quirks of each enemy, etc.) is related to the player and just not necessarily the job. Good players will do their best to educate themselves with resources available or do trial and error. This is not a DD only thing. The abilities they have (such as DRK's Weapon Bash and Stun spell) may be job related, but that is about it. The majority of the skill comes from the player.

Beyond the specific skills needed for DDing on specific enemies, it is really just auto-attack and WS. It isn't much beyond on that. I know you hate having a job you may love being reduced down to its basic function, but it's the truth. It's no different than WHMs main function is curing, BRDs main function is buffing with songs, etc. The difference between the WHM and the DD is that the DD's main function (dealing damage) is done for him or her automatically (except for WSs) as long as he or she is within range and facing the right direction.

Strawman.

You (and others) posted that DD's were braindead auto-attack jobs, which is untrue and highly incorrect. Anyone (including you) who thinks that is a shitty DD and I prove it constantly.

Plus while I do like melee's, my favorite job isn't melee but RDM. It was the first job I mastered and the multi-tasking, micromanaging skills I learned from it translate well into melee jobs.

Of course someone who thinks DD's only auto-attack and hit one WS macro would have absolute no idea what I'm talking about. No wonder your so confused.

sc4500

05-31-2013, 09:00 PM

This is what happens when they let tanaka (sp) (amazing story teller done alot when he was younger) but the dude make there mmos outdated and not willing listen, and he takes FF backwards and he seemed have a ego problem, game was made under his reign. ,Just look what he happen to do to ff14, then see what he did to this game now. What he did with seekers he take steps backwards and now this new kid got to clean it up, and it going take him time, like it taken the one dude that made abyssea for us and what he has done on ff14 is amazing, ff14 is amazing now that people can talk about it since the nda lifted on the beta testers so they do not get banned.

Demon6324236

06-01-2013, 04:22 AM

In all honesty with all of the balance preaching that went on with Tanaka I would doubt that these level of weapons were ever his idea, I think the tier progression was Matsui's idea, and the only way he figured he could make it stand out is with these insane leaps, and he would be right, except we as a player base simply skip things like that every time because SE makes it too many hoops and to much time to bother going through the other content first.

predatory

08-06-2013, 02:47 PM

I think the whole issue was a mistake, dating back to the level cap raise from 75+ or more honestly I think as new content was released, the gear from the old content should have been level adjusted so people would be able to choose what gear sets they wanted to use. What we have now is a system like WoW where every expansion pretty much makes the one before it useless. There is absolutely no reason to go to sky after this newest version update... None.

I liked it better in the old Zilart, CoP, WoTG, and ToAU days, when everything was kept relevant, this game is trying to play catch up to WoW and there's no comparison, this one used to be much better, not so anymore, SE just doesn't get it, they've lost so many players over the years from their constant meddling with jobs, and equipment, and everything else, why fix what isn't broken? They try to please a few who cry really loud, and end up having to shut down a server.

I say raise the level of all the old content and gear, then let people choose what content they want to do for what gear. This game has really gone downhill over the years.

Daemon

08-06-2013, 03:01 PM

There is absolutely no reason to go to sky after this newest version update... None.

Are you seriously stating this as a fact? I'll take it with a grain of salt and assume its just your opinion however I highly disagree with you on this.

Why?

Here is what I own:
Dalmatica+1
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080706232153/ffxi/images/9/94/Dalmatica_%2B1.png
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dalmatica_%2B1
Additional Augments
Fast Cast +6
Magic Accuracy +6
Occasionally Quicken Spellcasting 3%

Blood Cuisses
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080113034022/ffxi/images/1/1a/BloodCuisses.png
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blood_Cuisses
Additional Augments
Fast Cast +4
Magic Evasion +4
Evasion +7

Clearly who in the right mind would assume walk speed on pants is worthless?

And people do hunt for Genbu shield and other pieces of the Crimson, Aquarian set as well as other things. If Tamaxchi is a club with Cure potency high enough not to make augments on the shield, obviously a Mage would still want it for the -10 PDT it offers. And what Mage wouldn't welcome the +10 evasion? +10 earth resistance?

Genbu Shield
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080330171428/ffxi/images/f/f3/GenbusShield.png
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Genbu's_Shield

Also you cannot expect "Everything" in one area to be useful. That's the point of going out and hunting for various pieces across every content to build your characters uniqueness.