Bug Reports and Technical Difficulties completely ignored by the SE Staff

[PeaceWalker]

As far as I know, I'm still paying a monthly fee for a service that includes technical support, right? And no, I'm not talking about my own computer's problems, I'm talking about problems directly related to FINAL FANTASY XI and how it runs on my (and a lot of other people's) computer.

Maybe not everyone suffers from these problems, but people who have a modern build may have noticed that the game runs terribly on newer graphics cards. Playing VW, Reives and other contents that have a lot of player models brings the game down to a crawl, it's like I'm watching a slideshow and still the devs are completely ignoring these issues.

I know that at this point they don't expect completely new players to start playing the game, but some people actually buy new pieces of hardware over the years.

What's even worse is that the japanese boards get a lot more attention than the western boards (I'm not from the US or the UK, but this is the western board that actually gets the most attention). The community reps and the developers ignore most of our comments and issues. Want a good example?

Here's a thread about the issues with newer Nvidia cards on the JP boards:
JP Thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25091-GTX670%E3%81%A7%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A8%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%E3%81%AE%E6%80%92%E3%82%8A%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%80%E6%92%83%E3%81%8C%E7%99%BA%E5%8B%95%E3%81%99%E3%82%8B%E3%81%A8%E3%82%AF%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%81%8C%E5%BC%B7%E5%88%B6%E7%B5%82%E4%BA%86%E3%81%99%E3%82%8B)

Now here's two threads that have been posted in english that were completely ignored by the staff:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22548-NVIDIA-500-and-600-series-cards-TDR-errors-in-FFXI-only.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31169-Low-FPS-most-of-the-time

It's sad that my thread didn't even get the attention of that annoying guy that always posts on Bug Reports if you don't follow their specific layout. I didn't even get a pre-made answer.

If all else fails, I would like to ask here if someone was able to fix the issues that FFXI has with modern GPUs. Any ideas?

EDIT: Also created a thred on the Geforce forums. Let's see who's going to give me an answer first, shall we? Link (om/default/topic/541894/geforce-600-series/final-fantasy-xi-slowdown-with-geforce-600-series/)

[Alhanelem]

The most likely reason for the ignorance is they have no idea what the problem is.

There is the Graphics stabalizaiton issue that was specifically added to fix certain Nvidia card issues. Did you/they try that? Did you try using an older driver?

But if you're trying to seek help, why don't you make the thread about asking for help instead of badmouthing SE for not offering support when your card/driver combination is not officially supported?

As they don't likely have a team of engineers studying and analyizng new hardware to make sure their 10+ year old game supports it, you have to expect that hardware made way after the game wasn't built with it in mind, nor was the game built for that hardware. That kind of stuff costs a lot of money.

[Kojo]

My main two gripes is, atleast on Phoenix, I've spoken to a few people who've had the same problem as me with just randomly being thrown off. R doesn't drop to 0, I stay at 100%, the server just decides to boot me, this seems to be happening to LS mates on PC and 360, being that it disconnects PoL, but not Skype, I'd guess it is a PoL issue?

Second is those two floating flowers in Konschtat... It's been like 10 years, why are they still airborne?

[Alhanelem]

Second is those two floating flowers in Konschtat... It's been like 10 years, why are they still airborne? What floating flowers? lol.

Only twice in history has any area recieved any kind of geometric/structural changes- and that was when CoP and Zilart came out, to punch holes in a few walls for area zones. So there must be some reason or another why such things don't get changed. Upper Jeuno has had a few invisible walls in the middle of the main path for as long as the game has existed as well.

As for the other issue, when you're getting disconnected from the game suddenly with no R0, it's because you were disconnected from PlayOnline for whatever reason. Can't be sure about the reason for the POL disconnect, but if you get D/C'd from POL, it gets you D/C'd from the game even if your connection is otherwise fine.

[Kojo]

What floating flowers? lol.

Only twice in history has any area recieved any kind of geometric/structural changes- and that was when CoP and Zilart came out, to punch holes in a few walls for area zones. So there must be some reason or another why such things don't get changed. Upper Jeuno has had a few invisible walls in the middle of the main path for as long as the game has existed as well.

As for the other issue, when you're getting disconnected from the game suddenly with no R0, it's because you were disconnected from PlayOnline for whatever reason. Can't be sure about the reason for the POL disconnect, but if you get D/C'd from POL, it gets you D/C'd from the game even if your connection is otherwise fine.

SE from crag along the hills, where the Treants are in Abyssea.

[Sarick]

My main two gripes is, atleast on Phoenix, I've spoken to a few people who've had the same problem as me with just randomly being thrown off. R doesn't drop to 0, I stay at 100%, the server just decides to boot me, this seems to be happening to LS mates on PC and 360, being that it disconnects PoL, but not Skype, I'd guess it is a PoL issue?

Second is those two floating flowers in Konschtat... It's been like 10 years, why are they still airborne?

This is because your TCP connection to play online times out. The game isn't on the same connection and every few seconds imitates another connection. If that separate connection fails or times out it automatically boots you from the game even if your game connection is fine.

Run a network tool you'll see that FFXI isn't a single connection to a single server. Some other POL services run in the background and these can cause a disconnection from the game.

[Kojo]

This is because your TCP connection to play online times out. The game isn't on the same connection and every few seconds imitates another connection. If that separate connection fails or times out it automatically boots you from the game even if your game connection is fine.

Run a network tool you'll see that FFXI isn't a single connection to a single server. Some other POL services run in the background and these can cause a disconnection from the game.

How would one fix this?

[PeaceWalker]

The most likely reason for the ignorance is they have no idea what the problem is.

There is the Graphics stabalizaiton issue that was specifically added to fix certain Nvidia card issues. Did you/they try that? Did you try using an older driver?

My problem is not solved by Graphics Stabilization, because I have slowdown issues, not crashes, so that option did not fix any of my troubles.
A lot of people are suffering from the same problems, some of them are crashing and all of them are getting slowdowns. Only one of these issues have been fixed.

Also the older drivers aren't compatible with my card. The recommended drivers for FFXI stopped being supported for the 600 series of nvidia cards.


But if you're trying to seek help, why don't you make the thread about asking for help instead of badmouthing SE for not offering support when your card/driver combination is not officially supported?

Didn't you see the last link on the thread? I made that thread asking for support and no one from the staff answered. I'm not badmouthing, I'm stating facts here.


As they don't likely have a team of engineers studying and analyizng new hardware to make sure their 10+ year old game supports it, you have to expect that hardware made way after the game wasn't built with it in mind, nor was the game built for that hardware. That kind of stuff costs a lot of money.

So are you saying that they should completely drop support for newer PC builds?
If you have ever studied Software Engineering you would know that fixing bugs, updating the software and making it compatible with newer systems is all part of the costs associated with the program. So FFXI being a subscription-based game that is still being supported should be updated as such.
The whole reason we pay the monthly fees is to keep the ball rolling.

FFXI never got past the bandwith limitations for the patch servers, they never did an update to the game's engine ever since the game was released and they have barely bothered working on their code most of the time, which is part of the reason the new and improved UI is vaporware.

Besides, FFXI wasn't developed for PC, anyway, it was a port from the PS2.


My main two gripes is, atleast on Phoenix, I've spoken to a few people who've had the same problem as me with just randomly being thrown off. R doesn't drop to 0, I stay at 100%, the server just decides to boot me, this seems to be happening to LS mates on PC and 360, being that it disconnects PoL, but not Skype, I'd guess it is a PoL issue?

Second is those two floating flowers in Konschtat... It's been like 10 years, why are they still airborne?

I'm seeing a lot of people lagging out of their minds lately, specially during Reives, it's insane. I don't get as many R0's outside Reives as I do when I'm participating.

[Alhanelem]

My problem is not solved by Graphics Stabilization, because I have slowdown issues, not crashes, so that option did not fix any of my troubles.Are you using something that shall not be named, or editing the registry to super-sample the game screen? because this causes a major performance drain. The game doesn't actually utilize your video card for much of the rendering process- FFXI is much more CPU intensive than GPU intensive. Even if you have a pretty modern system, this can cause noticeable slowdown.


So are you saying that they should completely drop support for newer PC builds?There isn't really any support to drop in the first place. They haven't really added many newer cards to their supported list. Remember, the definition of supported is "We can assure you due to our own testing that the game works properly with this device. Unsupported doesn't mean it won't work, it only means they haven't tested it and it may or may not work, but they can't promise that it will or help you with it. (A similar issue happened recently about them dropping XP support- They only said that because Microsoft is also dropping XP support- This doesn't mean it won't work, only that they can't promise it will continue to work nor will they help you with it if it doesn't.



Besides, FFXI wasn't developed for PC, anyway, it was a port from the PS2.And this is a large part of why things are the way they are now.

[PeaceWalker]

Are you using something that shall not be named, or editing the registry to super-sample the game screen? because this causes a major performance drain. The game doesn't actually utilize your video card for much of the rendering process- FFXI is much more CPU intensive than GPU intensive. Even if you have a pretty modern system, this can cause noticeable slowdown.
No and no.
I am aware that FFXI is CPU intensive, but I don't think na i7 should struggle with a game so old, right? This is definetely a GPU related issue.


There isn't really any support to drop in the first place. They haven't really added many newer cards to their supported list. Remember, the definition of supported is "We can assure you due to our own testing that the game works properly with this device. Unsupported doesn't mean it won't work, it only means they haven't tested it and it may or may not work, but they can't promise that it will or help you with it. (A similar issue happened recently about them dropping XP support- They only said that because Microsoft is also dropping XP support- This doesn't mean it won't work, only that they can't promise it will continue to work nor will they help you with it if it doesn't.

And this is a large part of why things are the way they are now.
You're right, there is no support and that is a huge problem...

[Alhanelem]

I am aware that FFXI is CPU intensive, but I don't think na i7 should struggle with a game so old, right? This is definetely a GPU related issue.The higher the clock speed the more higher you can turn up the 3D res. Throughout XI's history, clock speeds haven't really gone up dramatically in mainstream CPUs- most CPUs have gotten faster by adding more cores more than by increasing mHz. Remember that the game will not use more than one core as it was never designed to.

Slow performance that isn't glitchy or crashing is usually not a GPU issue, because the game doesn't really utilize the GPU much. The game will run fine on even a REALLY old card with Hardware T&L as long as you have a good CPU.

[RAIST]

If you are getting slowdowns, it may not even be related toyour GPU, per se. In one of those threads which I posted in, I was going with the GPU angle....but it could be a host of other things on your system. It could be something running in the background causing the slowdown. It could be an HID, AV, CPU Throttling...any number of things that may be stealing either CPU cycles or memory bandwidth. As Alhanelem has been saying, the GPU only matters for a small portion of the rendering process (mostly post processing if I remember right). It relies more heavily on raw power from the CPU core and your bus bandwidths, more so now then ever before because of the changes in the OS environments since Vista was released.

The core of the problem ultimately stems from Micrsoft's revamping of DirectX several years ago. The game is actually not designed to run against your hardware and your hardware's driver---it is designed with the DirectX API in mind. This practice has been going on for a while now, and finally started to get cut off around DirectX 9 and 10. Since then, the Audio/Video/Input layers have changed dramatically--but FFXI is still designed to to be compatible with an older API's support, which has had some of it's features nixed from more direct hardware support and instead runs in emulation now. A clear example of this was sound cards with robust hardware support. The newer DirectX is no longer taking advantage of full hardware support for sound like it did pre DX10, but uses the new Alchemy layer, increasing the demand on the CPU JUST for managing sound processing.

Ultimately, there is nothing SE can do short of rebuilding FFXI to run to a newer DirectX API. Don't expect that to happen any time soon. Absent of this major change, the onus actually falls to the hardware manufacturer's (ATI, nVidia, Creative, Asus, etc.) and/or Microsoft to work out the problems with their hardware and drivers working to properly support older DirectX applications.

[PeaceWalker]

If you are getting slowdowns, it may not even be related toyour GPU, per se. In one of those threads which I posted in, I was going with the GPU angle....but it could be a host of other things on your system. It could be something running in the background causing the slowdown. It could be an HID, AV, CPU Throttling...any number of things that may be stealing either CPU cycles or memory bandwidth. As Alhanelem has been saying, the GPU only matters for a small portion of the rendering process (mostly post processing if I remember right). It relies more heavily on raw power from the CPU core and your bus bandwidths, more so now then ever before because of the changes in the OS environments since Vista was released.

The core of the problem ultimately stems from Micrsoft's revamping of DirectX several years ago. The game is actually not designed to run against your hardware and your hardware's driver---it is designed with the DirectX API in mind. This practice has been going on for a while now, and finally started to get cut off around DirectX 9 and 10. Since then, the Audio/Video/Input layers have changed dramatically--but FFXI is still designed to to be compatible with an older API's support, which has had some of it's features nixed from more direct hardware support and instead runs in emulation now. A clear example of this was sound cards with robust hardware support. The newer DirectX is no longer taking advantage of full hardware support for sound like it did pre DX10, but uses the new Alchemy layer, increasing the demand on the CPU JUST for managing sound processing.

Ultimately, there is nothing SE can do short of rebuilding FFXI to run to a newer DirectX API. Don't expect that to happen any time soon. Absent of this major change, the onus actually falls to the hardware manufacturer's (ATI, nVidia, Creative, Asus, etc.) and/or Microsoft to work out the problems with their hardware and drivers working to properly support older DirectX applications.

It still doesn't make any sense to me how some people are able to get stable FPS with configurations so similar to mine save the GPU.

Mind posting your computer specs?

[RAIST]

My specs are irrelevant to your config, mostly because it is older hardware still running xp.

It's a self built overclocked system (C2D E8400 at 4GHz, 4GB DDR2 at 1180 MHz) running an ATI 4870 (forget what I set the clocks at in the FFXI profile...but it's at least 940Mhz on the memory and 900 on the core--they hit those numbers pretty consistently).

The trick is going through YOUR specific hardware and software that may potentually be interfering with your game experience. That's one of the reasons they have so much information in their bug report format (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/68-Welcome-to-Forum-Technical-Support!?p=80&viewfull=1#post80).

As you've stated, others with same/similar hardware may not be having the same issues. That makes it pretty elementary. If you are using the same GPU, driver, OS, and service pack level but you are having issues others are not experiencing, there may be something ELSE about your system causing a problem.

The trick is finding what that is. It could be software in the background. It could be your soundcard options, drivers, settings. It could be your network card. It could be a USB device attached. It could be an IR device on your motherboard. The list can go on and on. Some have even found they were having problems because of the keyboard they were using in the past. There are a ton of variables at play, and what works for some may not even apply to your environment.

The point is if you've exhausted all known possibilites with your graphics options (not just drivers, but features, BIOS settings, etc.) and have NOT tried to troubleshoot elsewhere, it may be time to look elsewhere.

[PeaceWalker]

My specs are irrelevant to your config, mostly because it is older hardware still running xp.

It's a self built overclocked system (C2D E8400 at 4GHz, 4GB DDR2 at 1180 MHz) running an ATI 4870 (forget what I set the clocks at in the FFXI profile...but it's at least 940Mhz on the memory and 900 on the core--they hit those numbers pretty consistently).

The trick is going through YOUR specific hardware and software that may potentually be interfering with your game experience. That's one of the reasons they have so much information in their bug report format (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/68-Welcome-to-Forum-Technical-Support!?p=80&viewfull=1#post80).

As you've stated, others with same/similar hardware may not be having the same issues. That makes it pretty elementary. If you are using the same GPU, driver, OS, and service pack level but you are having issues others are not experiencing, there may be something ELSE about your system causing a problem.

The trick is finding what that is. It could be software in the background. It could be your soundcard options, drivers, settings. It could be your network card. It could be a USB device attached. It could be an IR device on your motherboard. The list can go on and on. Some have even found they were having problems because of the keyboard they were using in the past. There are a ton of variables at play, and what works for some may not even apply to your environment.

The point is if you've exhausted all known possibilites with your graphics options (not just drivers, but features, BIOS settings, etc.) and have NOT tried to troubleshoot elsewhere, it may be time to look elsewhere.

I will get into some testing here, I can't go into details about what I'll be doing, but I'll have conclusive results afterwards.

[Kitkat]

I was going to go into specifics of things I've done on my card to counter this, but decided against it since it doesn't necessarily fix the problem so much as "smooth it out." Nvidia is in the process of releasing their 320 drivers (in beta) with WHQL of 314.22 driver, but this list shows only up to 560/570 and driver 277.68 drivers? It isn't hardware favoritism either as ATI's end is equally outdated. SE is just being as lazy as they generally are when it comes to support/updates that would go a long way in enhancing the overall world.

But hey....at least they are giving pc users an enhance UI overhaul -.- I'd rather they work on stability/performance for newer system components. ~shrugs~ We are out of the single core processor and AGP graphics card age (hell, most newer integrated graphics can play this without trouble)....but that isn't SE's concern..and we've already gotten some rather....troublesome responses as of late concerning their limited manpower available to even fix some of the concerns related to this latest expansion release. With that one comment....what can we really expect at this point?

[Calintzpso]

APS or your ECO Settings can kill your performance for older games. Example, Gamepad's and MSI's Super Charger HATE each other. Uninstalling that and disabling the voltage throttling on ports returned my game to full FPS.

Specifically kill your EuP 2013 settings and investigate your Core C6 State's setting.

[Yinnyth]

EDIT: Also created a thred on the Geforce forums. Let's see who's going to give me an answer first, shall we? Link (http://om/default/topic/541894/geforce-600-series/final-fantasy-xi-slowdown-with-geforce-600-series/)

On this forum, you can reach
1. Community reps
2. Moderators/GMs
3. The localization team
4. The game developers (if you read and write in Japanese)
5. Jerks like me

Which one of those guys is the one that you think is an expert on the NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M? The GeForce forums was the right place to go first because they're the only guys who can actually do something about your problems.

[Enkrateia]

Greetings, PeaceWalker!

I noticed your concerns about not getting a response, and I will escalate your posts to the Support Center to look into. While I cannot guarantee a resolution to the concerns you are having, I will make sure that your other threads are noticed so that they can be looked into and any possible assistance given.

I will not be closing this thread at this time, since members of the FINAL FANTASY XI community are also trying to help through their personal experiences.

LGM Enkrateia

[PeaceWalker]

Greetings, PeaceWalker!

I noticed your concerns about not getting a response, and I will escalate your posts to the Support Center to look into. While I cannot guarantee a resolution to the concerns you are having, I will make sure that your other threads are noticed so that they can be looked into and any possible assistance given.

I will not be closing this thread at this time, since members of the FINAL FANTASY XI community are also trying to help through their personal experiences.

LGM Enkrateia

Thank you very much!
I do appreciate this response, believe me.
Just hope it does lead to something, lots of other people can benefit from this.

[JiltedValkyrie]

Make sure AA is completely off, that helped me.