Fell Cleaves...

[Demon6324236]

We are currently investigating players who advertise power leveling services via Shout/Yell, collect gil from the participants, and then use that gil to engage in RMT-related activity. Our investigations thus far have revealed that these players regularly advertise in the Jeuno area and we have responded by terminating the FINAL FANTASY XI service accounts of those found guilty of this behavior.

Please be aware that advertising in such a manner in itself can be disrupting to other players and we may take action against players who continuously advertise for the above kind of parties. This also includes behavior that helps facilitate such activity. Please take caution in not supporting RMT-related activity.

In addition, if you witness other players engaging in this behavior, please report the details to the Special Task Force via the Square Enix Support Center.

Square Enix Support Center
http://support.na.square-enix.com/ffxi/
[Contact] > [Report to Special Task Force] >　[Witnessed RMT related activity in-game]

We appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.I want clarification that no normal and legitimate player will be punished for participating in or performing a similar type of party. There is no reason a normal legitimate player should be punished for taking actions similar to a RMT of who is breaking the rules when the normal player is not breaking any rules. Our actions are only similar in game, meaning the fact we perform these types of parties, not out of the game, where RMTs plan to make money from performing these parties.

There are many normal players who use these types of parties to fund Relics, Mythics, Emps, and gear in general, all of which are good reasons to do it, and not ban-able offenses. While I know this has been said before, I recently spoke to a GM who informed me that it is a punishable offense to host one of these parties no matter if you are found to be a RMT or not, and can result in a ban of your character.

[Randwolf]

"Please be aware that advertising in such a manner in itself can be disrupting to other players and we may take action against players who continuously advertise for the above kind of parties."

That phrase would apply to all players. So, even if you aren't RMT but are spamming the shouts for services, you are subject to discipline. Personally, I have no issue if the FC shout spammers get disciplined. The game will continue on without their services.

[Kincard]

Personally I don't think the STF should be concerned about banning the fell cleaves themselves because they arn't technically breaking the rules, and just stick to banning suspicious gil transactions. I don't use fell cleaves and I've never hosted one (well, I've done a few within LS that didn't involve any gil, if that counts), but I don't really like the idea that they're just targeting whatever the RMTs happen to be doing to make gil and just do massive bans on anyone who engages in similar activity. It shouldn't be THAT hard to find who the RMTs are and who they arn't.

[Sarick]

We are currently investigating players who advertise power leveling services via Shout/Yell, collect gil from the participants, and then use that gil to engage in RMT-related activity.

First sentence is all you need to worry about. I bolded the parts that are of importance. Are players still able to cleave after the defense update? I mean instant hate on the mage and high damage on the aoe dealer makes it sound like they'll be kinda dead.

[Zagen]

This is disappointing as now those who want to get from level 30 to 99 fast are competing as leaders for "normal" abyssea EXP. Oh well guess I'll have to key whore instead of leech my GEO from 30-99.


First sentence is all you need to worry about. I bolded the parts that are of importance. Are players still able to cleave after the defense update? I mean instant hate on the mage and high damage on the aoe dealer makes it sound like they'll be kinda dead.
Defense update changed nothing for cleave parties, nor was it going to change anything considering unleveled the monsters have low attack and base damage allowing phalanx (and regen atma(s) if not using MNK enemies) to negate the damage.

[Kojo]

I want clarification that no normal and legitimate player will be punished for participating in or performing a similar type of party. There is no reason a normal legitimate player should be punished for taking actions similar to a RMT of who is breaking the rules when the normal player is not breaking any rules. Our actions are only similar in game, meaning the fact we perform these types of parties, not out of the game, where RMTs plan to make money from performing these parties.

There are many normal players who use these types of parties to fund Relics, Mythics, Emps, and gear in general, all of which are good reasons to do it, and not ban-able offenses. While I know this has been said before, I recently spoke to a GM who informed me that it is a punishable offense to host one of these parties no matter if you are found to be a RMT or not, and can result in a ban of your character.

Firstly I hate cleave parties, but I DO see the usefulness, secondly, I try to refrain from using profanity on these forums but that is absolute bullshit, if it's a bannable offense they should label it a bug or an exploit and fix it, no one should be banned for a "working as intended" way of partying that has been bitched about but never nerfed/fixed/whatever.

[Kikorimo]

I had made a thread here about this the first time this came up and Okipuit had responded saying that they investigate thoroughly and only ban if the cleaver is using the gil for RMt related activity. Also said to be careful what cleaves you join because if you support RMT cleaves there is a chance of punishment. I'll see if i can find my old thread and link it...

[Kikorimo]

found it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29155-Question-for-Devs-regarding-cleave/page2

[Horadrim]

Well...

Glad I got all of the jobs I wanted 99 quickly cleaved, I guess.. :/ Shame because I was just about to start cleaving with my warrior myself.

I find this incredibly stupid, considering you can sell key items, which are key items specifically to disallow you from being able to share them. You can sell services like mercenary work for Limbus bosses or Shin, yet using a completely legit strategy to gain money from helping people level faster is considered dastardly and nefarious?

If this is how they are going to act with regards to it, there is a hell of a lot of stuff they need to start banning. I've never been annoyed by an FC shout -- but damned if those NNI "you can have 1 piece of gear for 15 mil" shouts didn't piss me right off.

[Demon6324236]

found it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29155-Question-for-Devs-regarding-cleave/page2See that is part of why I ask, because all of this happened a few days ago when on Phoenix a group of people were fighting in yells over a FC shout, and once person said they would be calling a GM on them. Originally I paid this no mind, but I thought it best to check as I know a few people who do FC, and I myself do it on occasion for friends and LS members as well as others in my LS. Upon asking and being told it was a ban-able offense either way, I was angry, and with this popping up, I figured it is the perfect opportunity to ask it on the OF again to make sure, because if someone is banned because of this whom I know I will be raising hell on the matter.

[Demon6324236]

First sentence is all you need to worry about. I bolded the parts that are of importance. Are players still able to cleave after the defense update? I mean instant hate on the mage and high damage on the aoe dealer makes it sound like they'll be kinda dead.I was able to FC Lizards at their max level in Misar with full buffs up (bergressor and such) which lowered my defensive options to nothing, and yet I was getting hit with hardly any damage. I had 47% PDT but still, that is low damage with those buffs, any WAR with 20~25% PDT should be able to cleave just fine so long as they have a decent RDM(360~440 skill...) casting Phalanx on them. That is easy in all honesty because RDM caps at 424 so thats not hard to hit if you cap it, and PDT gear is easy with Dux and a few random simple pieces in Abyssea.

[Horadrim]

First sentence is all you need to worry about. I bolded the parts that are of importance. Are players still able to cleave after the defense update? I mean instant hate on the mage and high damage on the aoe dealer makes it sound like they'll be kinda dead.

I survived for like 15 minutes in Abyssea as WAR/DNC while wearing primarily double attack gear (only PDT piece I had one was Dux feet) from the AH while holding every crab in the are next to the frogs in Misareaux -- the only reason I was there was because I wanted to D3 myself and after seeing how long it was taking I decided to try and test how long I could survive). It isn't hard at all to stay alive in Abyssea -- the defense update did very little, it seems.

[CrystalWeapon]

I've always hated the way they handle rmts. They use broad strokes way too often when dealing punishment. If there is a legit way to make money in this game, and rmts are using it then who gives a crap. They should be banning for suspicious gil transactions not legal ways to make gil.

Their shoot the hostage to save them approach is the reason why I never took up gardening/fishing to npc to make money, nor did I spam chocobo blinkers before the nerf. I was always afraid I'd get autobanned for doing something that was never against the rules, but still risky just for the fact that rmts were doing it.

[Horadrim]

I've always hated the way they handle rmts. They use broad strokes way too often when dealing punishment. If there is a legit way to make money in this game, and rmts are using it then who gives a crap. They should be banning for suspicious gil transactions not legal ways to make gil.

Their shoot the hostage to save them approach is the reason why I never took up gardening/fishing to npc to make money, nor did I spam chocobo blinkers before the nerf. I was always afraid I'd get autobanned for doing something that was never against the rules, but still risky just for the fact that rmts were doing it.

What's worse is that now RMT's will likely retreat to other activities. I expect to see them FC'ing themselves for Cruor, then selling brews to the highest bidder. Which will lead to mercenary work in general becoming suspect.

[CrystalWeapon]

What's worse is that now RMT's will likely retreat to other activities. I expect to see them FC'ing themselves for Cruor, then selling brews to the highest bidder. Which will lead to mercenary work in general becoming suspect.

It wouldn't be so bad if there were a system in place to plead your case if you accidently get banhammered. From what I've heard even if you got hit by the automated ban for surplussing gil, there is no way to reverse it.

[Yinnyth]

It wouldn't be so bad if there were a system in place to plead your case if you accidently get banhammered. From what I've heard even if you got hit by the automated ban for surplussing gil, there is no way to reverse it.

I heard that after the automated ban system bans your character, an automated delivery drone drops a flaming bag of poop on your doorstep. Doesn't make it true. Back in the day of Salvage duping, tons of people got banned, and there were stories of them appealing to SE regarding their ban. There is a system in place to reverse a ban, it's just standard customer support which is always a hellish experience for both parties involved.

And wait, since when is there automated banning? Yeah, they use methods to find certain behavior from players to isolate suspects, but it's a person, not a robot choosing who gets banned.

[CrystalWeapon]

And wait, since when is there automated banning? Yeah, they use methods to find certain behavior from players to isolate suspects, but it's a person, not a robot choosing who gets banned.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/4008/detail.html

I'm damn sure they've added more to their arsenal since then but I really don't feel like sorting through old news to find more STF posts.

[Alhanelem]

I want clarification that no normal and legitimate player will be punished for participating in or performing a similar type of party. There is no reason a normal legitimate player should be punished for taking actions similar to a RMT of who is breaking the rules when the normal player is not breaking any rules. Our actions are only similar in game, meaning the fact we perform these types of parties, not out of the game, where RMTs plan to make money from performing these parties.

There are many normal players who use these types of parties to fund Relics, Mythics, Emps, and gear in general, all of which are good reasons to do it, and not ban-able offenses. While I know this has been said before, I recently spoke to a GM who informed me that it is a punishable offense to host one of these parties no matter if you are found to be a RMT or not, and can result in a ban of your character.How do you "clarify" this? Just asking.

II agree with the post below yours.

The issue applies to those people shouting 24/7 selling spots in a cleave. No normal person is going to cleave 24/7. If you are, I'm going to go ahead and call you an RMT.

On shiva, there are two people i've seen /yelling for cleaves all day every day.

The probability of all or most of the people buying in being gil-buyers is extremely high, as is the probability of the person taking the gil being RMT.

[Elexia]

The probability of all or most of the people buying in being gil-buyers is extremely high, as is the probability of the person taking the gil being RMT.

Hm, considering you can walk out a good dynamis run with at least 1.2m barring 100 drops as well, I doubt anyone has a need to buy gil lol. Most people I see buy in FC are established players, rarely do I see actually new players in FCs.

[Afrohatch1]

Paying 500k~ for a FC run makes you a gilbuyer? What is this, 2008? That's a pretty broad assumption, brah

[Demon6324236]

How do you "clarify" this? Just asking.Their post says its action against RMT, yet a GM told me any player could be punished for participating in such a party. I want them to come out and say for sure if real players will be punished for it or if it was a misunderstanding and only those found to be RMT will be punished.

[Luvbunny]

Hm, considering you can walk out a good dynamis run with at least 1.2m barring 100 drops as well, I doubt anyone has a need to buy gil lol. Most people I see buy in FC are established players, rarely do I see actually new players in FCs.

Yeah the same established players who understand how the FC party works. They rather go do something else like getting some sleep - and wake up to find their characters is already level 99. Why don't SE just start having NPC selling unique items (like those memoirs thing) that will give you 5-10 levels per use. And charge us with cruors or gills - make it rather expensive, say 100k-200k per level at lvl 75 and above. And limit for 5 levels a day or something.

This will reduce fell cleave activities. And RMT will resort to being "merc" Abyssea pop items lol, or figure out a way to take advantage SoA system. Honestly, Abyssea is the best system they come up, by making cruors so easy to get and most of the best gears rare/ex - this render gills somewhat moot unless you are making relic and mythic or crafting.

[Zumi]

You can make 1.5m easy in 1 dyanmis run paying 500k to someone for an FC does not make you a gil buyer. FCing is probably the best way to level. Sad but true.

[Kojo]

Their post says its action against RMT, yet a GM told me any player could be punished for participating in such a party. I want them to come out and say for sure if real players will be punished for it or if it was a misunderstanding and only those found to be RMT will be punished.

If it could be misunderstood at this level, it could be misunderstood to the point of resulting in a ban, just because a GM may think it's against ToS. Personally, I kinda feel the GM you spoke to was mistaken, which needs to be rectified.

[FrankReynolds]

The issue applies to those people shouting 24/7 selling spots in a cleave. No normal person is going to cleave 24/7. If you are, I'm going to go ahead and call you an RMT.

This guy ran cleaves and literally stayed in abyssea for weeks straight to fund relics etc. for himself and his friends. He duo-boxes on 2 xbox 360s and absolutely hates RMTs. I played with him for years in my sky / sea / limbus / einherjar and abyssea linkshells. He is absolutely not an RMT.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Cerberus/Cbassxx#equip


The probability of all or most of the people buying in being gil-buyers is extremely high, as is the probability of the person taking the gil being RMT.

It takes what? 1 week of doing dynamis two hours a day to earn enough gil to FC every job to 99 in a pay per hour type party? Why would you have to be a gil buyer to do that? I don't think I know anyone who can't afford that. I guess everyone is an RMT now?

[sweetidealism]

Am I understanding correctly that the issue is the admittedly annoying advertisement via shout/yell?

For example, if I were to go to an Abyssea area and, instead of shouting, use a search comment to notify others that I'm willing to power level them-- would that be okay? It hardly seems like it would be as effective, but that way I would still be able to let players know what I'm doing so they would be able to find me. No RMT activity, just an honest Mithra earning a living power leveling.

Please clarify the dev's stance on this.

[Zumi]

If spaming Jeuno for FC i annoying wouldn't spaming Jeuno shout/yells for getting people for VW or any other event be just as annoying?

[Alhanelem]

Hm, considering you can walk out a good dynamis run with at least 1.2m barring 100 drops as well, I doubt anyone has a need to buy gil lol. Most people I see buy in FC are established players, rarely do I see actually new players in FCs.


It takes what? 1 week of doing dynamis two hours a day to earn enough gil to FC every job to 99 in a pay per hour type party? Why would you have to be a gil buyer to do that? I don't think I know anyone who can't afford that. I guess everyone is an RMT now? just because you do a monotonous 2 hour activity to get gil doesn't mean other people want to or have the time to. There will be gil buyers no matter how easy you percieve it to be to make gil. For every person who doesn't mind doing the work, there's someone that doesn't want to do it.

I certainly don't want to farm dynamis every day personally. Besides that, the price is crashing with new content decreasing interest in relics + oversaturation of currency in the market. The price on Shiva has dropped by almost a third since the expansion came out.

Anyone who buys gil is L-A-Z-Y. They buy it because they don't want to spend the time making it- even if it's not "difficult" to do. Thus, these are the same people whom are likely top be the clientel of fell cleavers.

no matter how easy you think something is, there will always be people who don't want to do it. You'll probably ask "why play then?" Well, that's a good question. Ask a gil buyer sometime.


This guy ran cleaves and literally stayed in abyssea for weeks straight to fund relics etc. for himself and his friends. He duo-boxes on 2 xbox 360s and absolutely hates RMTs. I played with him for years in my sky / sea / limbus / einherjar and abyssea linkshells. He is absolutely not an RMT.He'd be an exception to the rule. He also would have to rest/sleep sometime, so if he was in there all day every day for weeks straight, either he's super-human, has red bull for blood, or is using a bot program / script / keyboard macro.


Am I understanding correctly that the issue is the admittedly annoying advertisement via shout/yell?

For example, if I were to go to an Abyssea area and, instead of shouting, use a search comment to notify others that I'm willing to power level them-- would that be okay? It hardly seems like it would be as effective, but that way I would still be able to let players know what I'm doing so they would be able to find me. No RMT activity, just an honest Mithra earning a living power leveling.

Please clarify the dev's stance on this.Here's your clarification: yell in jeuno once or twice, set a comment, then go cleave. Don't use a mule to auto yell in town at regular intervals and you're fine.

If you're that afraid of action being taken, then just don't do it. It's not like there's no other way to make gil than exploit gil buyers and lazy bums.

[Zagen]

Here's your clarification: yell in jeuno once or twice, set a comment, then go cleave. Don't use a mule to auto yell in town at regular intervals and you're fine.
Sorry I must have missed the announcement, congrats on getting hired by SE to be an official spokesman!

[Yinnyth]

Sorry I must have missed the announcement, congrats on getting hired by SE to be an official spokesman!

He gave some advice on how to avoid getting banhammered for doing something which is not against the rules. I seriously doubt SE will respond seeing as how that's basically giving RMT a roadmap for how to do their thing without getting banned.

Edit: CrystalWeapon, thanks for pointing me to that STF report. I had read it in the past, but I just skimmed it and didn't realize they were using automated banning tools.

[Zagen]

He gave some advice on how to avoid getting banhammered for doing something which is not against the rules. I seriously doubt SE will respond seeing as how that's basically giving RMT a roadmap for how to do their thing without getting banned.

And unless he's an official spokesman from SE his advice is meaningless considering he's not a part of the people who will make the decision on whether or not a player get's banned.

[Ravenmore]

There are still many gil fountains in the game and it is piss easy to get 500k to a mil even out side of dyna. Got bst(some times it seems like who doesn't) and 99 KS bam 1mil for 15mins of work using items you pick up going about your day.

[Yinnyth]

And unless he's an official spokesman from SE his advice is meaningless considering he's not a part of the people who will make the decision on whether or not a player get's banned.

You're right, he can't accurately speak on behalf of SE. And I doubt SE will speak on the behalf of SE regarding that matter. So form your own opinion. As I would hope every intelligent person would. But if you need some advice, Alhanelem's is not a bad place to start.

I should mention, I do somewhat agree with the OP here. This is (or at least should be) a publicity nightmare for SE since they basically condemned selling your fellcleave services. But it should not be a nightmare for people offering helpful suggestions on how to avoid getting banned.

[Phafi]

you guys didn't look very hard.
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&tag=ff11user


2.2 Real Money Trading, Farming and Power-Leveling. You may not sell, purchase or exchange for real-world money or value any in-game currency, accounts, characters, in-game services, or in-game virtual items. You may not play the Game for the purpose of acquiring virtual items or advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party or for the purpose of selling any virtual assets to a third party for real-world money, specifically including “gold-farming” and power-leveling services.

[Yinnyth]

That's for real world money though. People who sell exp for ingame gil and leave it at that should still be ok by SE's laws.

[Phafi]

its phrasing makes it seem like it's lumped in with botting where your character progresses while you're not playing as indicated by the second bold part

[Zagen]

its phrasing makes it seem like it's lumped in with botting where your character progresses while you're not playing as indicated by the second bold part
It's a gray area to be honest. Third-party has in the past been in reference to programs outside of the game, however without any clarification like the OP is asking for it can include other players.

[bigdave]

i think that se should leave people along if there gonna ban people for paying 1 mil to get 8 hours of xp they will wind up with no client base if they continue in this direction stuff like this makes me want to quit i am still highly upset about blinkers and pearl teal and pink gear set nerfs

[Yinnyth]

i think that se should leave people along if there gonna ban people for paying 1 mil to get 8 hours of xp they will wind up with no client base if they continue in this direction stuff like this makes me want to quit i am still highly upset about blinkers and pearl teal and pink gear set nerfs

I'm sorry to hear that NPCing your cruor was your largest source of gil. Seeing as how cruor is so easy to obtain however, it was a natural necessity if they wished to prevent rampant inflation.

[Galieon]

Why not ask your friendly GM in game? That's what we did. The SGM was able to clarify the policy quite nicely. For starters, Fell Cleaving for xp is not against the pol service agreement. Where it gets tricky is the RMT aspect / zone disruption. So here's how to not be dumb and avoid getting banned.

RMT activity: Don't do it. Simple right? SE is able to track your currency transactions (gil flow through your character). Don't make money disappear and you'll be fine. As long as you (the host) are engaging in normal spending habits with your money (defined as action house / occasional bazaar transactions) you have nothing to fear. As for the people donating to you cause, don't ever trade more than 1M (think delivery box: what is the maximum amount of gil you're allowed to send in a dbox, and why was it set at that amount to begin with? hint: it wasn't always that amount).

As for zone disruption, this could mean 1 of 2 things. You're either disrupting the zones with yells, or you are disrupting the zone you are cleaving in. To bypass the yell, make your yell like a normal xp pt, with XX/18. People aren't dumb, and know what kind of party it is. I would advise against advertising a payed amount (or advertising much at all) unless you want excess scrutiny to be taken against you. Keep it in /t, with a 'we are requesting a donation of ____'. Shouldn't take long for your party to fill, and if it doesn't people will randomly ask you hours later, it's amazing. Also, be an entrepreneur and write people's names down. Keeping in contact with them in /t' is a sure way to keep from disrupting zones with shouts (fancy that).

As for disruption of the zone. Bazaar your NM pop items for w/e it is you're cleaving. Also, if people want to farm the mobs for w/e item, just collect them from your burns, and give it to them for free. Most of the time, they're more than happy to take free stuff. It saves them time / money, and over all you're being charitable with YOUR time to aid other players (I know right? People being charitable to others in this game is a shocking concept).

Misc. Concerns: Grievance / Harassment: Grievance and Harassment violations can exist. Here's how to not get one against you. Don't be effin greedy with pulling. If some1 else has some mobs pulled, tough, get the next batch, or don't suck with your pull path. If you purposely claim mobs that some1 else has pulled, they can file a grievance complaint against you for malicious intentions (that is ban-able). On the contrary, you as a host get these same inalienable FF11 rights. If some1 kills the mobs you have pulled with the intent to cause you harm / grieve you, you may report them (Cool huh?). In summary for this, don't pull other people's xp mobs.

In summary: 1. Don't trade your gil with shady intentions, 2. Don't commit zone discrepancies, 3. Don't make other's hate you or give them ANY reason to think you are causing them harm. Play nice, and you will be rewarded (if you would like additional feedback, feel free to ask a GM yourself).

[zataz]

just to clarify if u pull 3 mobs and i "take one" nothing will happen to me if its not claimed its fair game

[Galieon]

No sir. That is ONLY if the mob is not 100%. Otherwise, you are the one compromising a player's xp, when there would clearly be other mobs on the field you could choose from (in most instances, not every mob can be pulled). 1-2 mobs off the group isn't the problem. The main issue is where player will do an aoe onto the mobs you pull. I personally wouldnt care if you pulled 1-2 mobs off the group. Kill the whole thing and ruin the party as a whole, you're getting reported for grievances.

[Horadrim]

you guys didn't look very hard.
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&tag=ff11user

Which makes every Mercenary shout against the rules.

[Elexia]

just to clarify if u pull 3 mobs and i "take one" nothing will happen to me if its not claimed its fair game

To further elaborate on this, if you see me go to pull mobs and you decide to start picking mobs off of me you're actually harassing me. So if you sit there and follow me just to pick mobs off of me, that's harassment. If I already FC'd/CW or whatever else you do for AoEing then you come over and kill them, that's griefing.

"Yellow/White Names" is indeed fair game, but you have to use common sense on when it's free game and suffice to say, being an ass doesn't make it 'free game.'

[Kikorimo]

I already posted a link to a community rep response to this in this thread. I made a thread the last time this was announced here and had a community rep respond here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29155-Question-for-Devs-regarding-cleave/page2

Greetings,

To clarify the situation -- normal players will not get in trouble for advertising power leveling services on their own. We will thoroughly investigate whether or not the users soliciting for the service are affiliated with RMT activity and take action against those that are. However, in the event players are supporting RMT activity and services, there is a possibility of being punished as well. Therefore, we ask users to be careful not to involve themselves in activity that is associated with RMT.
It's at the bottom of Page 2. Okipuit was pretty clear that it's ok to cleave as long as you're not selling the gil etc. You'll only be punished for joining a cleave IF the perople taking your gil are RMT. In other words, don't join cleaves that are run by suspected RMT.

[Sarick]

It's at the bottom of Page 2. Okipuit was pretty clear that it's ok to cleave as long as you're not selling the gil etc. You'll only be punished for joining a cleave IF the perople taking your gil are RMT. In other words, don't join cleaves that are run by suspected RMT.

How are you supposed to know if they are RMT? Is there a service like "Show me the carfax." for cleave parties?

[Zagen]

I already posted a link to a community rep response to this in this thread. I made a thread the last time this was announced here and had a community rep respond here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29155-Question-for-Devs-regarding-cleave/page2

It's at the bottom of Page 2. Okipuit was pretty clear that it's ok to cleave as long as you're not selling the gil etc. You'll only be punished for joining a cleave IF the perople taking your gil are RMT. In other words, don't join cleaves that are run by suspected RMT.

Do you realize that post was made on 12-11-2012 04:45 PM? Considering the new notice (posted a day ago) includes shouts being a disruption (something that wasn't previously mentioned) what Okipuit posted may no longer be accurate. Even then there's this issue:


How are you supposed to know if they are RMT? Is there a service like "Show me the carfax." for cleave parties?

I get that going into detail risks having RMT learn how to circumvent the bans but really without explaining there's no way to know what is or isn't safe.

[Alhanelem]

How are you supposed to know if they are RMT? Is there a service like "Show me the carfax." for cleave parties?
You would probably only be subject to discipline if they can link you as a buyer to a gil seller.

[FrankReynolds]

just because you do a monotonous 2 hour activity to get gil doesn't mean other people want to or have the time to. There will be gil buyers no matter how easy you percieve it to be to make gil. For every person who doesn't mind doing the work, there's someone that doesn't want to do it.

I certainly don't want to farm dynamis every day personally. Besides that, the price is crashing with new content decreasing interest in relics + oversaturation of currency in the market. The price on Shiva has dropped by almost a third since the expansion came out.

Anyone who buys gil is L-A-Z-Y. They buy it because they don't want to spend the time making it- even if it's not "difficult" to do. Thus, these are the same people whom are likely top be the clientel of fell cleavers.

no matter how easy you think something is, there will always be people who don't want to do it. You'll probably ask "why play then?" Well, that's a good question. Ask a gil buyer sometime.

I grasp that there are lazy people. However, earning enough gil to fell cleave your jobs up is super easy. We're talking what? maybe a million per job tops? If you think spending 1 million gil on something means that you are a gil buyer, then you yourself are definitely without a doubt a gil buyer by your own definition. That's completely ignoring the fact that prior to the blinker nerf, just sitting in a fell cleave party earned you enough gil to pay for the party. Prior to blinker nerfs, all you had to do was have enough money to get in the party. You would earn it back just standing there.

In other words, anyone who could come up with a million gil, just once. Just one million gil. Just one time. Had enough to level every job. Without ever earning another dime. Just trading in the cruor they made from the first run to fund the next until they were done with every job. You are crazy far off the mark on this one.


He'd be an exception to the rule. He also would have to rest/sleep sometime, so if he was in there all day every day for weeks straight, either he's super-human, has red bull for blood, or is using a bot program / script / keyboard macro.

His brother did play his character sometimes, but 99% of the time it was all him. He lives someplace where he gets snowed in and so he would do nothing but play FFXI during those times. It's not really for us to judge. The fact of the matter is that SE should be doing their due diligence to make sure they don't ban long time dedicated customers like him just so that they can stop joey the pink ninja from buying gil. Joey the pink ninja wasn't going to be around long anyways.



If you're that afraid of action being taken, then just don't do it. It's not like there's no other way to make gil than exploit gil buyers and lazy bums.

So in essence, honest paying customers should work extra hard to make their gil so that SE has less work to do investigating RMTs? That makes perfect sense... said no one ever.

[Kikorimo]

Do you realize that post was made on 12-11-2012 04:45 PM? Considering the new notice (posted a day ago) includes shouts being a disruption (something that wasn't previously mentioned) what Okipuit posted may no longer be accurate. Even then there's this issue:



I get that going into detail risks having RMT learn how to circumvent the bans but really without explaining there's no way to know what is or isn't safe.

If you read the original post, they said something then about shouts being a disruption also. The current post is the same as the last time this came up.

[Alhanelem]

I grasp that there are lazy people. However, earning enough gil to fell cleave your jobs up is super easy.It's not super easy enough. I don't think you grasp just how lazy the typical buyer of gil is. They buy gil because they want to play the game but don't really want to play it. Also a perequisite for having a million plus gil to cleave your jobs is having at least 1 job leveled already. It is not easy for a new player to make a million gil. They certainly can't do it fast. It doesn't matter how easy you personally think something is, there will always be someone too lazy to do it. It wasn't exactly rare for someone who couldn't be bothered to play the game and pay someone else to play their character for them before cleaves existed.


It's not really for us to judge.Except it is for SE to judge, and I will judge it too because it is obviously shady to me. I don't care if you get snowed in. You don't have to spend every second on FFXI continuously performing the same activity. That would be suspicious to anyone in this game.


The fact of the matter is that SE should be doing their due diligence to make sure they don't ban long time dedicated customers like him just so that they can stop joey the pink ninja from buying gil.Except in systematically obvious cases that can easily be detected by a scanning system like RMT PWNER, the ban button is pressed by a person who looks at the case before making a call. They're giving due diligence, because, like you said, unless you hate money, you don't ban people from your game unless it's a flagrant violation that is likely to have a negative effect on other paying customers, either directly or indirectly through disrupting the economy with RMT.

[Fawkes]

All shouts are disruptive. Ban everyone who shouts.

[FrankReynolds]

It's not super easy enough. I don't think you grasp just how lazy the typical buyer of gil is. They buy gil because they want to play the game but don't really want to play it.

It doesn't matter how lazy the average gil buyer is. The cost of entry is low enough that 99.99% of legitimate players can afford it easily.

I'll repeat again. Read the words out loud and actually think about what is being said.

1 million gil is not a lot of gil. Only an idiot would suggest that anyone with 1 million gil is a gil buyer.

Go through the auction house. People pay millions of gil for items that give almost zero tangible benefit all day long. Why wouldn't they pay that money to save themselves from doing something they don't like? There are only a few plausible reasons. They like leveling, they have no money, they don't understand how it works or they have some BS moral conflict.


Also a perequisite for having a million plus gil to cleave your jobs is having at least 1 job leveled already. It is not easy for a new player to make a million gil.

This is a moot point as you cannot FC your first job to 99. You have to leave and do limit breaks every 5 levels. No one is doing that in a pay per hour party. Quit being intentionally obtuse.


and I will judge it too because it is obviously shady to me.

I think your insinuations and seemingly inside knowledge about gil buyers and their activities reeks of experience in gil buying yourself. I however am a fan of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing and an even bigger fan of "mind your own business" so I'm not gonna cheer on the ban bot and hope it gets you and I'm certainly not going to worry about what you do with your money. See, I don't need to see other people who aren't doing anything to me get banned in order to feel good about myself or my "Ethics".


I don't care if you get snowed in. You don't have to spend every second on FFXI continuously performing the same activity. That would be suspicious to anyone in this game.

Of course you don't care if I get snowed in. You seem to be the worlds biggest fan of bad things happening to other people. You're basically angry that someone else got to play more than you. He also spent upwards of 12 hours straight in a single day helping groups of people get through missions like CoP and ZM. Should he banned for that too? WTF do you care how he spends his time? Do you pay him or something? When did they put you in charge of regulating peoples time spent in game?

To be clear here, we are talking about a guy who was chatting in LS and talking on Xbox live the entire time. Not some robot running a pattern 24 hours a day.


Except in systematically obvious cases that can easily be detected by a scanning system like RMT PWNER, the ban button is pressed by a person who looks at the case before making a call. They're giving due diligence, because, like you said, unless you hate money, you don't ban people from your game unless it's a flagrant violation that is likely to have a negative effect on other paying customers, either directly or indirectly through disrupting the economy with RMT.


And how exactly would shouting in a city provide proof that Gil was exchanged for real life money? I'll give you a hint. It won't.

Face facts. You didn't like FC parties because it was a violation to your BS moral system and it infuriates you that other people don't see it that way. You know damn well that this has nothing to do with people being RMTs and everything to do with you just hating FC parties. Even if the RMTs had never touched them, you would probably still be in here rooting for SE to ban everyone who did them.

TLDR; Stop rooting for SE to ban everyone who doesn't play the game the way you think they should.

[Alhanelem]

I'll repeat again. Read the words out loud and actually think about what is being said.I would do the same thing, but it would repeat in an endless loop; so this will be the last time.

1 million gil is not a lot to you, but it is a lot to new players, and no person just starting the game is going to make 1 million gil in any real hurry. Keep repeating it if you want, but the fact of the matter is, just because YOU can make X gil in Y time, doesn't mean other people can, or that other people see that as easy to accomplish. We could fight over this to the end of time. 1 million gil can't be made in 5 minutes or less solo (without a lot of luck e.g. getting a good drop from some NM), and if something takes longer than 5 minutes, there are people with too much money and too much laziness who will happily pay large (small, meduim, whatever the hell you want to call it) sums of gil for someone to do something for them. You will not convince me that most people shouting for cleaves at set regular intervals all day every day are not RMT nor that none of the people buying in are not gil buyers.

It does not matter how easy you think it is. There will be people too lazy to bother doing it.

Christ, there are people who will buy items off the auction house that are available from an NPC in the same city they're in for cheaper. People are willing to pay more just to avoid spending a small amount of time walking, because that would require EFFORT! There are people that are just THAT lazy.


TLDR; Stop rooting for SE to ban everyone who doesn't play the game the way you think they should. I'm not. I'm rooting for SE to ban everyone who is RMT and/or is violating the terms of service.


And how exactly would shouting in a city provide proof that Gil was exchanged for real life money? I'll give you a hint. It won't. They don't just go, "Oh, he's shouting for cleaves / paying to join one, must be RMT/gil buyer! BAN HIM!" They run checks on the characters and accounts involved the same way they would investigate any other RMT case. if they find patterns of RMT activity, which they have obviously spent at least some time analyzing how RMT act and behave, then they look into taking action.


This is a moot point as you cannot FC your first job to 99. You have to leave and do limit breaks every 5 levels. No one is doing that in a pay per hour party. Quit being intentionally obtuse.new player doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't have 1 level 99 job yet." If you have just 1 level 99 job, there are several jobs that I would argue can not make the amount of money you claim to make doing the activities you claim to do. What if your first job was WHM, or GEO (post limit break implementation), or SCH? could you proc and kill dynamis mobs as fast most people who do it? Not likely.

What's even sillier about this is we're fighting over some arbitrary amount of money- an amount that I never specified. the specific amount is irrelevant- I don't care if you can make 100 million gil in an hour. Not everyone can or will have the patience or motivation to do whatever it is you're doing to make that gil.

[FrankReynolds]

I would do the same thing, but it would repeat in an endless loop; so this will be the last time.

1 million gil is not a lot to you, but it is a lot to new players, and no person just starting the game is going to make 1 million gil in any real hurry. Keep repeating it if you want, but the fact of the matter is, just because YOU can make X gil in Y time, doesn't mean other people can, or that other people see that as easy to accomplish. We could fight over this to the end of time. 1 million gil can't be made in 5 minutes or less solo (without a lot of luck e.g. getting a good drop from some NM), and if something takes longer than 5 minutes, there are people with too much money and too much laziness who will happily pay large (small, meduim, whatever the hell you want to call it) sums of gil for someone to do something for them. You will not convince me that most people shouting for cleaves at set regular intervals all day every day are not RMT nor that none of the people buying in are not gil buyers.

It does not matter how easy you think it is. There will be people too lazy to bother doing it.

Christ, there are people who will buy items off the auction house that are available from an NPC in the same city they're in for cheaper. People are willing to pay more just to avoid spending a small amount of time walking, because that would require EFFORT! There are people that are just THAT lazy.

So to sum it up, most people who have a million gil are gil buyers yeah? That's where we are at? And you realize that you have had over a million gil in the past so you are here and now declaring that you are almost definitely a gil buyer right? You're cool with that? You're going to come here on the forums and say that you and pretty much anyone who has as much money as you is cheating? No point banning then, just shut the servers down now. Everyone is cheating.


I'm not. I'm rooting for SE to ban everyone who is RMT and/or is violating the terms of service.

Your above explanation regarding the unlikelihood of legitimate acquisition of gil suggests that you and everyone you know are supporting RMT activities and should thereby be banned. Something tells me you will not do the right thing and cancel your account though.


They don't just go, "Oh, he's shouting for cleaves / paying to join one, must be RMT/gil buyer! BAN HIM!" They run checks on the characters and accounts involved the same way they would investigate any other RMT case. if they find patterns of RMT activity, which they have obviously spent at least some time analyzing how RMT act and behave, then they look into taking action.

That is not what is being asked in the OP and that is not what we have been discussing. We have been discussing the possibility of legitimate non RMT players being banned simply for offering FC services. Your above description of lazy players suggests that you belive that any and all people involved in FC parties are automatically guilty. That is completely different from auditing a players records for real money trades which has absolutely nothing to do with shouting.


new player doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't have 1 level 99 job yet." If you have just 1 level 99 job, there are several jobs that I would argue can not make the amount of money you claim to make doing the activities you claim to do. What if your first job was WHM, or GEO (post limit break implementation), or SCH? could you proc and kill dynamis mobs as fast most people who do it? Not likely. You can make money off just about any event as whm or sch as both jobs are highly desired. I hardly think GEO has been around long enough to be considered in this conversation.


What's even sillier about this is we're fighting over some arbitrary amount of money- an amount that I never specified. the specific amount is irrelevant- I don't care if you can make 100 million gil in an hour. Not everyone can or will have the patience or motivation to do whatever it is you're doing to make that gil.

1 million isn't arbitrary. Shouters generally charge 100k an hour for FC parties. 1 mil is roughly enough to go from level 30 to level 80+ . Everyone doesn't have to make that amount or even care to. If anyone can do that legitimately (thousands of people do every day) then you are going to end up banning honest people by auto-banning everyone who does FC parties.

Based on a 24 hour cycle with the average party lasting 10 hours accross all servers your talking about banning somewhere in the ballpark of 500+ people a day. You're insane.

[Alhanelem]

So to sum it up, most people who have a million gil are gil buyers yeah?I'm not stating that or implying it. I'm saying that people who spend this money on cleaves are comparatively more likely to have bought gil than those who don't spend that money on cleaves. Personally, I don't make millions of gil every day and I would not consider buying a spot in a cleave party to level up 1 job to be worth that amount of gil. You might be willing to throw away 1 mil on something that isn't all that hard to get for free (get a job from 30 to 99 in ordinary abyssea party) but I sure wouldn't be. Call me a miser or frugal but when I know there are things I want that cost much, much more, I would be much more likely to just save for that.


If anyone can do that legitimately (thousands of people do every day) then you are going to end up banning honest people by auto-banning everyone who does FC parties.Which is why you don't ban people on this sole basis- you conduct an investigation and determine whether they recieved gil from a known gil seller, you analyze the interactions to determine if the person doing the cleaving is offloading money to an RMT mule, etc.

None of this is as simple or cut and dry as you make it out to be or think it is. They aren't just arbitrarily banning every cleaver who shouts and every person who buys into one of those cleaves.


Your above explanation regarding the unlikelihood of legitimate acquisition of gil suggests that you and everyone you know are supporting RMT activities and should thereby be banned. Something tells me you will not do the right thing and cancel your account though. What is this I don't even- huh? How does that explanation suggest anything of the sort? I do not support RMT, nor do the people I associate with on a daily basis, unless you slide down the slippery slope and argue that anyone who buys an item or service from anybody must be supporting RMT, which is not what I said at all.


You can make money off just about any event as whm or sch as both jobs are highly desired. I hardly think GEO has been around long enough to be considered in this conversation. Neither job can make money off "just about any event" - not at the rate you suggest. SCH is NOT that highly desired anymore because embrava was nerfed. WHM is desired but doesn't perform that well on its own. WHMs are not going to go into dynamis and farm currency. If either of these jobs join someone else, they aren't getting as much as they could if they were on some other job.

[Ravenmore]

Like was said no one is going to pay to do a FC when you have to leave every 5 levels if they are new. Then by time they are in a position to buy a slot they more then likely know of the many gil fountains in the game. But really your whole argument falls apart pretty fast anyway seeing how there is in no way any kind of large influx of new players. There are amny lazy players and enough are buying gil to keep the rmt around but paying for FCs is not the reason people are buying gil they buy gil to finish relics and the like. By the logic the snow flakes are using anyone building a relic is a gil buyer.

[Alhanelem]

Like was said no one is going to pay to do a FC when you have to leave every 5 levels if they are new. Then by time they are in a position to buy a slot they more then likely know of the many gil fountains in the game. But really your whole argument falls apart pretty fast anyway seeing how there is in no way any kind of large influx of new players.My argument doesn't fall apart at all because 1) I didn't say anything about people cleaving their very first job and leaving every 5 levels and coming back or anything like that and 2) It doesn't exclusively apply to new players at all. Anyone can pay for a cleave, and not just anyone makes 1 mil every day or every hour or however fast you personally make it. Not anyone even wants to spend that time making money even if it's easy, when they could be playing other content.

People most certainly do buy gil to do cleaves, as they buy gil to do lots of other things. To argue that nobody does is simply ignorance and flat out wrong. I'm not saying "all people who buy into cleaves are gil buyers" - rather, "People who buy into cleave parties are more likely to be buying gil than people who level up by other methods."

Frankly I can't even comprehend why people would do it when it's easy enough to get into a non-cleave party, which can still be very fast and require little effort, for free. But apparently, people do.


By the logic the snow flakes are using anyone building a relic is a gil buyer. 1) flame attack is unwarranted, I am not a "snow flake," and I find your comments offensive. 2) This is not the logic I'm using at all, and I did not say, imply, or suggest that "anyone building a relic is a gil buyer."

[Demon6324236]

STOP ARGUING IN MY THREAD!

I made this thread to get an answer as to if players who make or participate in FC parties will get banned, not to argue the ethics of FC parties or argue if people will buy gil to join them. That is another subject entirely, if people buy gil to join the parties they should be punished, not the party, not its leaders, the people who bought the gil. Stop arguing about something completely off topic or start your own thread. I want an answer from SE, not your arguments over ethics or gil buying for parties.

[Zagen]

If you read the original post, they said something then about shouts being a disruption also. The current post is the same as the last time this came up.
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, "something that wasn't previously mentioned" was supposed to be read as "something that wasn't previously mentioned by Okipuit". I understand that the original message mentions shouting, so if I shouted:


(Blue Mage) (Leech) (Party) (Do You Need It?) 500k/5hr (/tell)

And someone saw me shout that every 30 seconds or even once a minute for 10 minutes or however long it takes me to fill up. That person then thinks "Hey that Zagen guy he must be RMT cuz he's shouting for a leech party, I'm gonna report him!" so what happens to me?

I mean people who know me, recognize the name, or bother to look me up on FFXIAH or Linkshell Community whenever that's fixed could (what I feel is obvious) obviously tell I'm not a RMT leech party shouter but some random person who's never met me might think I am. That person's word shouldn't be enough to get me flagged as RMT and then banned. If it is I sure as hell would like to know.

Also not only am I at risk if that person looked me up and saw which zone I picked and then found me to find out which characters joined so they could report each and everyone of those players as participators in RMT activities, is that enough to get people banned?

This is important because that could then be extended to other mercenary services or even people who shout to sell KI pop sets, currency, fish, or anything. Do you get why this actually needs to be explicitly explained?

[Elphy]

bad players will be bad players regardless of whether or not they get fc or participate in book burns. rmt will always find a way to make massive amounts of gil fast and gil buyers will always buy gil.

There is no need to punish legit players for something so silly. If they go back and ban hammer everyone who ever participated in fc pts because it's what some legit players do and just by chance so do rmt, they also need to ban all fishermen, all farmers, everyone who sold a chocobo blinker to an npc, the list goes on and on.

And with the 'disruption' thing, they would also need to ban anyone who ever /sh or /y for ls members, vw pts, storyline progression pts, mercenary work (seeking or offering), or anything that required you to sometimes /sh or /y for an hr or sometimes more since those can also be dubbed as 'disruptive', not to mention the trolls who /sh or /y for hrs sometimes offering services like tele's for gillions, and esp anyone who has ever participated in the dhalmel game which is by far the most disruptive thing anyone can do in /sh and /y.

I just /blist the fc pt ppl and go on my merry way. Problem solved in my book.

[Zarchery]

It seems a little counterproductive to me. The yells from the RMT doing the Fell Cleave parties are irritating. The thing is, they're just /yells, and it's pretty easy to blacklist them and move on. It's NOT so easy to blacklist one, then blacklist the next one after that one gets banned. On Carbuncle, we had the Yangs doing this. I have, on my blacklist, the following names of gil sellers who were spamming the yell channel for their FC party:

Yangem
Yangel
Yangek
Yangepp
Yangeq
Yangeea
Yangeem

I had to add a new name every week when the previous one got banned and my filter stopped working. Considering you don't even need to be higher than level 1 to run a yelling bot, what use is it going after them?

[Caketime]

I'm sorry to hear that NPCing your cruor was your largest source of gil. Seeing as how cruor is so easy to obtain however, it was a natural necessity if they wished to prevent rampant inflation.

If by "prevent rampant inflation" you actually meant "Wait until the damage was already done, then wait a year before fixing" then I agree.

[Demon6324236]

So my thread went from the ethics of FCs and the possibility of people buying gil to enter them, to blinkers... Get out of my thread and go argue elsewhere, this thread it asking for a response directly from a rep...

[Alhanelem]

So my thread went from the ethics of FCs and the possibility of people buying gil to enter them, to blinkers... Get out of my thread and go argue elsewhere, this thread it asking for a response directly from a rep...
If the only thing you want is info from SE, then you should contact support. This is a discussion forum and you can't expect people to not discuss your topic.

None of the discussion increases or decreases the likelyhood of getting an SE response, not that you should need one- Don't use a bot to spam cleave shouts 24 hours a day and you're off the hook. I've said this in multiple "I want a response from SE" threads, and SE themselves have said begging for a response does not modify your chance of getting one.

[Vivik]

I'm not stating that or implying it. I'm saying that people who spend this money on cleaves are comparatively more likely to have bought gil than those who don't spend that money on cleaves.

That is complete bullshit. You are pretty much alone in thinking this. You will argue anyway because that is what you enjoy; arguing a point to death till you think you have won when in reality the person just gives up wasting their time trying to reason with an idiot.

[Chilloa]

I'm not stating that or implying it. I'm saying that people who spend this money on cleaves are comparatively more likely to have bought gil than those who don't spend that money on cleaves.

I'm going against all instincts in replying to this, but I'm curious as to what research your basing this off of. Was there a survey or something that I missed? Or is it just another empty assumption that you're throwing into a topic like you usually do?

[Demon6324236]

I am not begging for a response, and you are not discussing my topic. My topic I started was on a post they made, saying FC parties were punishable now if ran by RMTs, at the same time I was given a contradictory statement from a GM, those who enforce these exact rules. What you all have been talking about is people buying gil to join cleaves, these people who would likely buy gil anyways because they can not find ways to make money and resort to that, this is not related to the topic. You also have talked about the ethics of FCs as they level people quickly, again, nothing to do with it, you have now had blinkers pop up, yet another unrelated topic in the same thread. These are not on topic, they are off topic, and thats why they need to stop.

I have not begged for SE to respond, I have gotten irritated because your incapable of keeping a thread on topic and feel the need to derail every thread with your nonsensical posts which are unrelated. For example, if I make a FC party it is not my job to know if the person joining me bought their gil, its impossible for me to know that really, so why should I be punished if I invite them and take their gil? Simple, I should not, now, if I join a FC shout and they are RMT, should I be punished for joining them? No, I joined a party by paying gil, not money, and thus did nothing wrong by normal conventions.

Punish RMTs all you like, its a great and noble goal, but when you start hurting your players who get caught in the cross fire your doing it wrong. Its like trying to catch a thief in a mall, and while hes running through a crowd of people the police simply open fire. That would cause a ton of injuries in the process, maybe even deaths, much like this can result in tons of unfair bans, and possibly a loss of a few subscriptions. I am tired of anti-RMT attempts effecting players, and in many cases, doing nothing to RMTs. If we are not RMT why should we be the ones effected more than anyone by these changes? RMTs can not make money by FCs, oh no, there are only a hundred other ways they can and do, on the other hand actual players do use the service, and if this is really a measure to stop RMTs as they claim then this is a terrible way to go about doing it.

I am not asking someone to go call and GM and post it here, I already talked to a GM, I was told something different than was posted here, that is why I want a response from a rep telling me what was said from the people who make the rules, not the ones who enforce them. I have never used a shout bot or anything of the sort like you say, but at the same time I am not risking my friends accounts or my own on going out and doing a FC when there is a looming threat that I may be banned for it because SE was unclear on their statements. SE is very stupid when it comes to support, I am sure if my character is banned they would never let me get it back. If that happened, I would quit, to much time and effort put into the game to lose it all on something as stupid as miscommunication between Square and their customers.

In short, you are not on topic, you are talking about several topics which are on something of similar nature which are not actually the same topic, which means you are off topic, and by being off topic, you are not discussing my topic. If you are not discussing my topic, you should not be in my thread be this a discussion forum or not, which means, if you want to talk about these things, go make another thread, this is not the place you are looking for.

[SNK]

I'm not stating that or implying it. I'm saying that people who spend this money on cleaves are comparatively more likely to have bought gil than those who don't spend that money on cleaves.

You're reaching too hard with this one. You don't need to buy gil to get into a cleave party. Honestly I don't do cleaving because I actually enjoy exping but I know everyone else isn't like me. Fell Cleaves are easy exp which is all the people doing it care about. I know a guy who funded a 99 Emp Staff *lol* by cleaving mobs for people who wanted exp.

I normally don't agree a lot with what Frank says but in this case he's right. You're being an ass for an ass's sake.

[Alhanelem]

You don't need to buy gil to get into a cleave party. Need to? no. likely to? I think so. I question that any legitimate player would even consider buying into one when they could just as easily get into a normal abyssea party for free and still level up whilst expending minimal effort. You're welcome to prove me wrong, but I just don't see it. Maybe I'm just cheap/frugal, but even if I had 100 mil in my pocket right now (which I don't) I'd probably still consider it a waste. Please note that this is an opinion, not research / evidence.


I have not begged for SE to respond, I have gotten irritated because your incapable of keeping a thread on topic and feel the need to derail every thread with your nonsensical posts which are unrelated.I'm really not sure how the things that have been discussed in this thread are not in any way relevant to the topic. All this talk about what activity is or may be illegitimate and how it is being determined is completely relevant to the topic, which is about fell cleave parties and how/if "legitimate" fell cleave parties can continue doing what they're doing without fear of bans.

There's nothing nonsensical about what I'm saying in my posts, but that's a separate issue altogether, and in the best interest of stability, I will not press any further further.



Punish RMTs all you like, its a great and noble goal, but when you start hurting your players who get caught in the cross fire your doing it wrong.Can you prove that any legitimate players have actually been "caught in the crossfire" and banned in relation to this issue? If you can show this, it would remove any doubts I have.

[Demon6324236]

I'm really not sure how the things that have been discussed in this thread are not in any way relevant to the topic. All this talk about what activity is or may be illegitimate and how it is being determined is completely relevant to the topic, which is about fell cleave parties and how/if "legitimate" fell cleave parties can continue doing what they're doing without fear of bans.Because I never asked if FCs were ethical, I never asked if we should be allowed to do them. I asked if we will be punished for doing them if we are not RMTs. FCs being ok is a never ending argument where people say old leveling was better and you learned your jobs while the other side says you learn your jobs better at the end and leveling up was nothing but a slow painful grind. Its an argument that has been had on this forum a hundred times, my thread is not the place to be the 101st. Blinkers are done and gone, money can no longer be made so easily, inflation from them is going away bit by bit. People buying gil for my cleave is not my concern, it is not something I should be punished for, how am I supposed to know every person who buys gil? Its not as though I know every person who I would have paying me and would know exactly how they make their gil, for all I know half the people in my LS buy gil, its impossible to tell. The same thing goes for shouts, I have met some cool people with random ass names, I have friends who made mules lately with random names, my friends character he made 3 years ago is named Cemine, a random name, so why judge every randomly named person as a RMT? I cant, I cant be sure they are, so I don't, and if I join their FC and it is a RMT I am punished? No, wrong, should not happen that way.

See, if they are wanting to take FCs away from us because they do not want us doing it, say it, do not put RMTs as the cause. By saying its RMTs and yet punishing all players they are lying to us, I am asking for clarification on this matter because I will not be lied to and banned from a game for something that was a miscommunication.


There's nothing nonsensical about what I'm saying in my posts, but that's a separate issue altogether, and in the best interest of stability, i will not press further.Nonsensical in the fact you think its on topic talking about if FCing is good or bad, about blinkers, or about people buying gil to join them, none of which are the topic of this thread.


Can you prove that any legitimate players have actually been "caught in the crossfire" and banned in relation to this issue?No, I can not, and I am not willing to go out and test if they will be, which is exactly why I asked here. Why would I be stupid enough to go out and try FCing something without getting a clear answer on if I will be banned for it or not when I suspect I could be mislead by one of the two sources which contradict one another from the same company?

This thread is about if legitimate players will be punished for FC parties, nothing more, nothing less, talking about FC Ethics, Blinkers, and Gil buying to join said parties, is not on topic, it is dancing around the topic, those are about FCs, not about real players being punished for false crimes.

[Luvbunny]

This FC activities has been going on for almost 2 years now no? Seems more rampart nowadays because RMT has joined the fray. Usually it does not last 24 hours but only a good 6-10 hours at most which can be done with two people who dual box and taking turn every 3-5 hours. Most of us play this game on a long 2 hours stretch minimum, 4 hours play in worm party abyssea seems normal. Sound like the wording on that official statement is geared toward those RMT and players who participate on that. I am not sure if they are going to start banning those normal players who advertise this service, or those who are offering their key item pop set, a spot on Legion for gear drops, or Shinryu battle etc...

[Demon6324236]

So, been a long time since I saw a FC party going, saw some shouts but they all seem to vanish, are legitimate players being banned for FCs? Can we be told what not to do in greater detail so we understand the rules? Will normal legitimate players be considered RMTs simply because we shout for a service to make gil, or will we be free to do so as long as we can not be traced to RMT activity?

[svengalis]

So, been a long time since I saw a FC party going, saw some shouts but they all seem to vanish, are legitimate players being banned for FCs? Can we be told what not to do in greater detail so we understand the rules? Will normal legitimate players be considered RMTs simply because we shout for a service to make gil, or will we be free to do so as long as we can not be traced to RMT activity?

I did notice a lack of FC shouts but I did join one just the other day. I think they are only targeting RMT, you don't see them shouting anymore.

[zataz]

No sir. That is ONLY if the mob is not 100%. Otherwise, you are the one compromising a player's xp, when there would clearly be other mobs on the field you could choose from (in most instances, not every mob can be pulled). 1-2 mobs off the group isn't the problem. The main issue is where player will do an aoe onto the mobs you pull. I personally wouldnt care if you pulled 1-2 mobs off the group. Kill the whole thing and ruin the party as a whole, you're getting reported for grievances.

lol ive asked a gm as long as i make a honest attempt to kill /claim it they wont do anything ive even took the nm cluster from a group when the whm poped it and lost claim the gm came and did nothing cause if its not red its free for all. if what u was saying is true to the extent that u claim then, i should of been banned many times over for taking nms people give up claim too to kill a add they get. i dont mess with slept mobs but u drop claim for a second im gonna take it thats just the way it goes done it many of times NEVER been banned.

[FrankReynolds]

lol ive asked a gm as long as i make a honest attempt to kill /claim it they wont do anything ive even took the nm cluster from a group when the whm poped it and lost claim the gm came and did nothing cause if its not red its free for all. if what u was saying is true to the extent that u claim then, i should of been banned many times over for taking nms people give up claim too to kill a add they get. i dont mess with slept mobs but u drop claim for a second im gonna take it thats just the way it goes done it many of times NEVER been banned.

I've driven drunk a thousand times. One time a cop even pulled me over and let me go. Let's all get drunk and drive!

[Renaissance2K]

Can somebody explain to a recently-resurrected player what a Fell Cleave is? Or is it one of those things where "the fewer people that are aware of it, the better"?

[Zagen]

Can somebody explain to a recently-resurrected player what a Fell Cleave is? Or is it one of those things where "the fewer people that are aware of it, the better"?
Fell Cleave parties was a general term that applied to people pulling all (or most) of the monsters in a given family and then AoE killing them. Setups noted for this were WAR (actually using Fell Cleave WS) with RDM support, RDM Aeolian Edge soloer, PLD Aeolian Edge soloer, or a BLU (solo or with support) using Charged Whisker and other AoE spells if they weren't 1 shot killing that way. There's probably other combos that work but those are the ones I'd see used.

The reason this works is EXP per kill in Abyssea is based on monster kill count (as well as golden/ebon lights) and not level of the monster killed. When you AoE kill monsters only the main target would count toward the monster level up mechanic, because of that AoE killing prevents monsters from leveling up allowing players to pull many more than would be possible if they were at max level. This allows 1-2 players to run 100-200k+/hr exp parties leaving room for 16-17 players who could simply stand there and leech exp from 30 onward.

[Demon6324236]

No, a FC is basically where a WAR, with the aid of a WHM, RDM, or SCH, gathers up a hoard of mobs in Abyssea and kills them all using the weapon skill Fell Cleave. This method is often used with an Alliance, having 2 or 3 people do all of the work while the other 15 are either afk or watching. Thanks to how Abyssea's experience system works people from level 30 all the way to 99 can come in, afk, and even if they do not originally they will start gaining experience after a while, eventually gaining roughly 600 experience. In return for this service, which often lasts many hours, people pay hundreds of thousands of gil, most old shouts used to be 100k for a hour, or a discount for paying a large amount of hours, for instance I used to run 10 hour FCs which were 100k/hour and 850k/10 hours.

For years now its been allowed and accepted by most of the player base, SE has given us warnings one or two times about RMTs doing them, and potential bans if you are caught involved with RMTs, but that is all. This most recent one however was brought into question, as the comment was more vague, and there have been various reports about responses from GMs on the subject. So far as it has been told to players, doing FCs are fair and legal within the game, but without clarification, who is willing to test it?



Sorry tired and this post much longer than intended to send, Zag got it.