Make more jobs appealing as subjobs.

[Oakrest]

I remember many moons ago, when subjobs were often chosen extremely narrow and limited (/war, /sam /nin, /blm for whm, /whm for blm, etc). It's great in the later age of Vana'diel we see a bit more diversity (/dnc, more /rdm or /sch, etc) but I think it could be even better.

This may be easier said than done, but I think a couple minor alterations to certain jobs (that aren't currently as commonly chosen as other subs), will make them more sought after, even if situational. This makes for different player builds, and I think that's more interesting.

For example, take a look at the Dragoon (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dragoon). Accuracy II is set to level 50, but why not 49? I don't think that would be game-changing, it's not like we get any benefit from the wyvern pet... all that's left is not nearly significant enough to break the game. So in this example, I'd say make Accuracy II a level 49 trait and more people will probably use it as a sub (I would in Adoulin!).

Another example, look at Bard (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bard). Resist Silence IV should also be a level 49 trait in my opinion (and the lower level Resist Silence's leveled down in relation).

Diversity in player builds is funner IMO :)

[Alhanelem]

SE intentionally set key job defining abilities at level 40 when the level cap was 75, and again carefully considered what job abilities and spells were available on sub as the level cap went to 99.


but why not 49?With the exception of DNC and COR, basically all job abilities are learned at multiple-of-5 levels.


Diversity in player builds is funner IMODiversity in player builds is nice, but it only lasts until people minmax and find the new optimal subjobs. If you give the subjob too much of the good, job defining stuff on the job, it lessens the need to play that job as a main job.

That being said, there are a few intentional crippling effects that weren't really necessary, like locking GEO sub out of geo- spells (though I guess it's an easy way to avoid the issue of luopan being pets and not working with pet main jobs) and limiting BRD and COR to 1 song/roll. Just make the effects more skill rating-dependent and then you can get some of the job's benefit on sub without destroying the main job.

(Also, the first level of a trait grants the largest increase in the stat- that is, accuracy II doesn't add as much additional accuracy as the first tier, etc. so it's really not a big deal that some of these traits are missed at 49).

[Kristal]

Diversity in player builds is nice, but it only lasts until people minmax and find the new optimal subjobs. If you give the subjob too much of the good, job defining stuff on the job, it lessens the need to play that job as a main job.

This is what happened to RDM. Everything but Composure can be gotten from /RDM, and you can bet RUN gets that or something very similar soon. And when inviting a RDM or subbing RDM would be inconvenient, they also give other jobs the ability to cast RDM spells. (And for good measure, a crippling merit spell system, because heavens forbid that every RDM has access to all RDM spells, and anything that RDM might consider nice to sub is crippled as /sub.)
But I guess that's enough RDM whining for now :D

I think jobs could get some subjob synergy effects going though. Effects or traits that are only available when a job is used as a sub. For example, two pets are possible if the 2nd pet acts like a fellow. That would allow SMN/PUP to have a supporting automaton as well as an avatar. SMN and PUP could even use that fellow pet on main job, like an avatar+spirit or two automatons (with 2nd one being harlequin)

[nyheen]

it safe to say most of the subs other then the 2 new jobs (idk how well it works for sub) are fine as it is. dont think people would even sub /drg for just the acc even if you had the lvl 49 wyvern (in pvp jumps was nice with the 5% haste earring). or brd for Resist Silence

it was a time when people /brd for Mage's Ballad & /smn Auto Refresh but after 99 them subs became kinda useless now.

ya about the rdm.. sadly most people seeing it more as /rdm and not a main rdm><. but i do rememeber back then main job war was mostly a sub job. i think this is where rdm is at now. but in time it will be changed

[Fynlar]

(Also, the first level of a trait grants the largest increase in the stat- that is, accuracy II doesn't add as much additional accuracy as the first tier, etc. so it's really not a big deal that some of these traits are missed at 49).

Not universally true -- in fact, the higher tier Accuracy Bonus traits add more. (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Accuracy_Bonus) Very slightly, but yeah.

In some other cases, like with Magic Attack Bonus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Magic_Attack_Bonus), you are correct.

[Tennotsukai]

I always thought it would be nice to see SE give blu more lower level and unique magic than just cocoon to be a reason to sub. I know drg's like the fast cast low mp spells but other jobs don't. Maybe have triumphant roar at 49 with more a duration?

[Jem]

I like this idea, and have always thought there were a few jobs that just need a slight boost to become better subjobs. The Last Resort/Desperate Blows update is a great example. Here are a few of my ideas in patch note format;

Thief:
- the Triple Attack Job Trait has been lowered from Level 55 to 45.
- Aura steal* is now a Job ability gained at level 5 that shares a recast with steal/despoil**.
- Aura steal merits have been changed and now increase the number of effects stolen.
*The Job ability Aura Steal cannot steal items.
**When using the Job ability Aura Steal the recast on Aura Steal, Steal, and Despoil will be set at 60 seconds.

Red Mage:
- The following white magic spells have been added to red mage (bellow level 49);
Blindna
Cursna
Paralyna
Poisona
Silena
Stona
Viruna
Erase
Reraise

Black Mage:
-The Job Trait tier Magic attack bonus III has been lowed from level 50 to level 45
-The Job Trait Elemental Celerity has been lowed from level 50 to 45

I understand that these may also be main job buffs but that's ok :)

[Zephrose]

I think this is a great idea, even if it might only be day dreaming.

And to Alhanelem point, I agree they should preserve the essence of each job. However, I believe they could better emphasize on these key traits/abilities/gear in the late game. Something that would truly show the job in all it's glory.

I rather like the thought of having a small triple attack chance from Thf as a sub while the main job might even have quadruple attack in it's late game. Perhaps in the 90's or merits.

I do believe it would open up sub redmage or even main redmage to have some of the existing traits/abilities adjusted to better be used for subjobs.

Cudos to the OP.

[Economizer]

I like this idea, and have always thought there were a few jobs that just need a slight boost to become better subjobs. The Last Resort/Desperate Blows update is a great example. Here are a few of my ideas in patch note format;

Core concept is good, but implementation takes effort.

For example, the Last Resort/Desperate Blows adjustment totally ignored 1h users - instead of taking an opportunity to have buffs for 1h that aren't related to Dual Wield (such as restricting the buff to when the user is single wield only).

Another change was the changes to defense so that Berserk and Last Resort can potentially penalize players - in theory 1h jobs with native Dual Wield would always go /WAR because it was Berserk or go home. Now there is a little more thought into it.


Thief:
- the Triple Attack Job Trait has been lowered from Level 55 to 45.
- Aura steal* is now a Job ability gained at level 5 that shares a recast with steal/despoil**.
- Aura steal merits have been changed and now increase the number of effects stolen.
*The Job ability Aura Steal cannot steal items.
**When using the Job ability Aura Steal the recast on Aura Steal, Steal, and Despoil will be set at 60 seconds.

Thief is often used for Treasure Hunter alone, but used to be used for Sneak Attack (whereas high Haste values, the nerfed values /THF gets for Sneak Attack, and all the buffs for Sneak Attack being main job have contributed to this not being the case anymore). It really isn't used too heavily for offensive means.

For a little while in the last year we had Sneak Attack bugged so that it worked with /THF and there was talk of considering it more as a subjob once again, although this was heavily muted because players either didn't know about the bug or knew it was going to be reverted back.

So I'd consider the trade-offs of having Sneak Attack work more like it does for THF, at least at higher levels, however I'd imagine it would be more useful for 2h jobs. Triple Attack is an interesting ability as well, but it also tends to favor 2h jobs. Since changes like this would heavily favor 2h jobs, perhaps the first tier of DW (or even giving THF a tier that has no delay reduction, as DW0) at a barely low enough level to sub would not only open up THF as a major subjob, but it would also allow lower level THF to have more open subjob choices itself.

Aura Steal on the other hand is a very big leap. This has more to do with the improvements you'd have on the THF side to make up for it, especially since the new 2h THF is likely to get involves a supercharged version of Aura Steal.


Red Mage:
- The following white magic spells have been added to red mage (bellow level 49);
Blindna
Cursna
Paralyna
Poisona
Silena
Stona
Viruna
Erase
Reraise

While someone could argue for Red Mage to get all the status removal spells, I'd argue that even if Red Mage should get them, they shouldn't get them at low levels. For one, this would decrease choice between classes since players would now always choose White Mage over Red Mage, whereas now there are legitimate trade-offs between the two (having to choose between debuff removal and AoE barspells, and Fast Cast, Magic Attack Bonus, Phalanx, Gravity among other spells). Removing this trade-off would lower the need to use /WHM to roughly never, decreasing subjob variety. As it is now players have to carefully choose between the two (and Red Mage often wins).

Reraise on the other hand is a no-brainer. It should have no effect on subjob selection since players can get lots of Reraise items (Scapegoats should be stackable though).


Black Mage:
-The Job Trait tier Magic attack bonus III has been lowed from level 50 to level 45
-The Job Trait Elemental Celerity has been lowed from level 50 to 45

Again, trade-offs. Currently BLM and RDM get the same MAB when used as a subjob. This makes a valid tradeoff (RDM's Cures, Haste, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Raise, Magic Def. Bonus, Convert, and Black Mage's Stun, Aspir, Drain, Aoe Nukes, Tractor, Elemental Seal, Conserve MP, Sleepga) that might be damaged by BLM having more MAB.

This is particularly an issue with SCH, which essentially has to choose between Haste and Stun, but is too powerful at many roles to get a significant buff, such as if Black Mage's Elemental Celerity or White Mage's Afflatus Solace were given out like candy.

[Horadrim]

This is what happened to RDM. Everything but Composure can be gotten from /RDM, and you can bet RUN gets that or something very similar soon. And when inviting a RDM or subbing RDM would be inconvenient, they also give other jobs the ability to cast RDM spells. (And for good measure, a crippling merit spell system, because heavens forbid that every RDM has access to all RDM spells, and anything that RDM might consider nice to sub is crippled as /sub.)
But I guess that's enough RDM whining for now :D

I've agreed with everything being said here up until this specific point...

Convert would be counter intuitive to "tanking", and Paladin already converts damage taken to MP... >_> I don't really get why RUN was singled out here. Despite popular belief, it isn't really RDM 2.0 -- I mean, it doesn't even have the same baseline premise. I don't get why people say stuff like this just to be swanky anti-SE coolios.

Anyway... Back on topic.

I'd love to see more diversity in subs, but Alh is right. Once people min-max everything, all other subs go out the window. That's why Samurai and Dark Knight used to sub Ninja despite being primarily 2handed jobs. That's why White Mage now subs SCH and RDM over /BLM, which you very seldom see anymore. Also why 90% of jobs sub DNC.

Something else will always be better, and people will min-max the hell out of things to try and be the "best."

I do, sometimes, miss the days when every job had semi-unique sub options... but I can't say that being able to heal myself as /DNC when the healers are all sucking on their thumbs and daydreaming isn't nice.

[Oakrest]

Diversity in player builds is nice, but it only lasts until people minmax and find the new optimal subjobs. If you give the subjob too much of the good, job defining stuff on the job, it lessens the need to play that job as a main job.

You're missing the point. There are far too many jobs who are not used as subjobs at all. Obviously I'm not suggesting they go overboard with the changes (hence my 2 modest examples above).

[Alhanelem]

You're missing the point. There are far too many jobs who are not used as subjobs at all. Obviously I'm not suggesting they go overboard with the changes (hence my 2 modest examples above). I'm not missing the point. This is because by the overall design of the job itself they don't have much to offer as a sub. In many cases these are the same jobs that are already not used much even as main jobs.

I don't think every single job needs to be viable as a sub.

In particular, PUP. BST and SMN will basically never be truly viable subs because these jobs are all about the pet and the pets are basically useless on sub. A level 49 pet is quite simply not going to be very functional to a level 99 player. Yes you can still charm mobs with BST as subjeob if you've leveled up BST all the way, but very few mobs are charmable these days and if you're going to do that, you may as well just play BST main. There is little you can do to make these and some other jobs viable as subs without radically changing the job as a whole. BRD COR and GEO suffer from the same problem because all they offer is their party buffs/debuffs, and you may as well bring the actual main job if you need those effects. You say they shouldn't go overboard with the changes, but that's basically what it would take.

[Luvbunny]

Here is one thing that I am not quite get it... Blu/Rdm actually can have some really potent spells that elevate the job to be better than RUN. At least for now. Magic Barrier last five minutes, 5 sec casting time, with 60 sec recast. Saline Coat has a 3 sec cast and give you 50 MDB decay to 10 MDB over the 60 sec duration. Not mentioning Cocoon and Phalanx, the bar spell, and a host of other job traits that a Blue/Rdm can have. Which basically makes Blue somewhat a potent job compared to RUN.

Rdm/Bst actually is a very fun job to play :) You get all the black and white magic you ever need - and a good DD disposable pet if you charm it with a charm gear. Too bad SoA mobs all con T and does not last very long when you charm them.

[Oakrest]

I don't think every single job needs to be viable as a sub.

I think you only join threads to be argumentative.

[Mirage]

I think most jobs should have utility as a subjob in one way or another. It only seems fair.

[JouriStarz]

I've agreed with everything being said here up until this specific point...

Convert would be counter intuitive to "tanking", and Paladin already converts damage taken to MP... >_> I don't really get why RUN was singled out here. Despite popular belief, it isn't really RDM 2.0 -- I mean, it doesn't even have the same baseline premise. I don't get why people say stuff like this just to be swanky anti-SE coolios.

He said Composure not Convert.

[OmnysValefor]

Make Hide a real hate dump that sets you to 1 enmity. Even thf main would love that. The number of mobs that hide actually works on are so few and far between it's not even worth using.

That, along with SA, and a decent Tripe attack trait might make /thf attractive as a choice, rather than just a tool.