Geirksogul Aftermath oversight

[Ophannus]

I've determined that the issue of the accuracy of stun with the Gungnir Shock Spikes Aftermath is an issue of Enhancing Skill/Magic Accuracy.


I did three tests. One as DRG/BLU with 0 Enhancing Skill. The proc rate of Stun's effect is <2% over several hundreds of mobs. Then I subbed RDM which gives me 149 skill. The proc rate of stun jumped to 6.5%. Then I subbed SCH with Light Arts and the stun rate of shock spikes aftermath jumped up to ~12% with 300+ Enhancing Skill.

I believe this may be an oversight by Square Enix when giving Shock Spikes to DRG's Relic Weapon Aftermath. DRG has no native Enhancing Skill and since the proc rate of Stun is based on Magic Accuracy(usually via Enhancing Magic), the proc rate is floored for DRGs unless we either equip and maintain a VAST amount of Magic Accuracy gear or sub SCH and maintain Light Arts for enhanced skill. Would it be possible to base the stun rate of Gungnir's Shock Spikes Aftermath on Polearm Skill or give it a natural base proc rate that doesn't depend on a skill DRG lacks?

or...you know, change the aftermath completely to something better

[Babekeke]

Almost as stupid as BLU curative spells having a healing magic multiplier >.>

[Ophannus]

Yeah but BLU cures are potent as-is even without Healing Skill.

[Alpheus]

Talk about needing an Aftermath Up and Down set. >.>;

This is quite disheartening to hear it was implemented so.

[Okipuit]

We appreciate the feedback but Geirskogul's Shock Spikes stun activation rate is not based on enhancing magic skill.

[Ophannus]

I'm not really sure what could have caused the variation in stun rate across subjobs, it was done on neutral days of the week(water/wind/ice days) and I don't think any Kuftal Tunnel weather could affect it. I guess my sample size may have been too low or some other condition affects the proc rate that I'm unaware of.

[Reaper]

could be a different skill rdm and sch share, that would make the most sense to me

[Ophannus]

Or some kind of m.acc, dunno. The proc rate jumped from like <1% to as high as 6-12% with a mage subjob. I didn't control for TP though because TP for relic WS only affects duration not potency so that's possible but unlikely.

[Alhanelem]

I'm not really sure what could have caused the variation in stun rate across subjobs, it was done on neutral days of the week(water/wind/ice days) and I don't think any Kuftal Tunnel weather could affect it. I guess my sample size may have been too low or some other condition affects the proc rate that I'm unaware of.
It's called statistical deviation, outliers, small sample size.

[Babekeke]

I'm not really sure what could have caused the variation in stun rate across subjobs, it was done on neutral days of the week(water/wind/ice days) and I don't think any Kuftal Tunnel weather could affect it. I guess my sample size may have been too low or some other condition affects the proc rate that I'm unaware of.

Personally, I'd be tempted to get a bigger sample size, then if you still see the same results, submit a bug report. What Okiput is saying here is that it's not SUPPOSED to be based on enhancing magic skill. But that doesn't mean that there's not some error in coding somewhere meaning that it actually is.

The other thing is: you didn't mention whether you used the same mobs. Though I assume that you would have done, it's not mentioned. This could affect it if you didn't. And if you are using crabs, use only crabs, don't do some crabs, some worms, some raptors etc. but I don't need to tell you how to test.

[Caketime]

We appreciate the feedback but Geirskogul's Shock Spikes stun activation rate is not based on enhancing magic skill.

You forgot to include the troll face.

[Ophannus]

Before this OP i posted a bug report and in it I stated I used robber crabs onry

[Demon6324236]

We appreciate the feedback but Geirskogul's Shock Spikes stun activation rate is not based on enhancing magic skill.So why not simply tell us what it is based on?! -_-

[dpdhuntress]

We appreciate the feedback but Geirskogul's Shock Spikes stun activation rate is not based on enhancing magic skill.

After all the forum posts asking for something to be done about gungnir Im amazed we actually got a sentence out of anybody at all since SE fails to give a reason or anything to this issue they clearly can care less about

[Umichi]

I think this is a bog step in the right direction. if it's not based off of enhancing what is it based off of? TP? i could see them putting a hidden modifier in the TP percentages as to how often it procs. but this would be hard to test i think...

[Demon6324236]

I think this is a bog step in the right direction.Your full of **** we basically spent years of time without anything out of them about it, its like they told us to pick a number between 1 and 100 without any details or hints about what they were thinking, if we got it wrong, it would be another year before we were allowed to pick again. Never any hints, never any help, oh, and if we get it right they will simply never tell us we are. If we think we are right and were not though, we can be sure we will get some nice vague answer like this one, enough to dismiss it but not crush hopes completely.

[Umichi]

umm whats the point in playing a game if you know everything about it? Your so butt hurt because SE likes to keep secrets that getting a response like this means shit to you. I personally find it enlightening that as a Drg i don't have to bother with enhancing skill now or any time in the future... get over it.

you also stated this "I've determined that the issue of the accuracy of stun with the Gungnir Shock Spikes Aftermath is an issue of Enhancing Skill/Magic Accuracy." why would SE allow you to continue giving out false information?

[Caketime]

umm whats the point in playing a game if you know everything about it?

This statement in the context of FFXI and SE's refusal to even speak about most things related to game functions except to make vague statements in an attempt to retain some sort of mystery is hilarious and should be rewarded. Your complimentary taco is in the mail and should be with you in the next 7-10 business days.

[Demon6324236]

umm whats the point in playing a game if you know everything about it? Your so butt hurt because SE likes to keep secrets that getting a response like this means shit to you. I personally find it enlightening that as a Drg i don't have to bother with enhancing skill now or any time in the future... get over it.

you also stated this "I've determined that the issue of the accuracy of stun with the Gungnir Shock Spikes Aftermath is an issue of Enhancing Skill/Magic Accuracy." why would SE allow you to continue giving out false information?They wouldn't, but how long has this Relic been out? How long has it had this Aftermath? How long has it been completely worthless? Keep something a mystery for a few months, hell, maybe a year, but at some point there comes a time when you need to stop keeping basic knowledge about an item from the players and simply spell it out for them. If they don't you get cases like the stupid DRG legs, which they finally figured out was a bug after they have been out a couple of years, a piece of Emp gear that took until this very update to actually fix. That is outrageous, no, they need to release some info after a certain amount of time, like /fume was, keeping stuff locked in the vault of secrets never to be answered, stupid idea.

[Umichi]

last I checked the weapon is still top of the line so saying that knowing everything about this weapon should be common knowledge should be rethought.. just because you only see people online discussing it does not mean that it's a problem for the majority. most Drgs I know who use gugnir know that gierskogul has it's uses and also understand that it is not meant to replace every ws you own. It has it's uses especially being a single hit ws with high end damage. the only thing that doesn't make sense is agi modifier for the ws... but there are plenty of ways to add more damage to the ws than stacking AGI like oh lets say Fstr which is what your wanting to use for higher max damage per hit so the issue is minor in my opinion among other options... oh and make the defense down stackable...


you also forget that the only people who deem gugnir useless are number crunchers, min/maxers.. they are only looking for the hypothetical set-up thats going to maximize their damage because we all know they only focus on how much zerg can they put into a gear set.

+40 acc(name a piece of weaponry, or armor for that matter with that much acc), defense down, a powerful ws that can self SC lvl 3 light (especially now, pre 75 it was harder and usually involved you using your 2hr to do it)

lets also not forget that theirs a 10% penalty somewhere on drakesbane unless you own ryunohige, so if your comparing drakesbane to drakesbane, gungir v ryu of course ryu is going to win. Gungnir still has higher base damage

also last I checked @Caketime, a game developer has every right to pick and choose what info they want to divulge in Their game that You play, just because SE likes to hold onto old traditions doesn't mean they should buckle out of pressure or because "everyone else does it"


on an unrelated note what level gungnir do you own @demon? have you done the magian trial to collect 250 umbral marrows yet?

[Infidi]

This statement in the context of FFXI and SE's refusal to even speak about most things related to game functions except to make vague statements in an attempt to retain some sort of mystery is hilarious and should be rewarded. Your complimentary taco is in the mail and should be with you in the next 7-10 business days.

That was supposed to be my taco. :( I agree though: I can understand not giving the simple stuff like lore, or something, but not exposing game mechanics in at least some form, is pretty archaic from the standpoint of the way most MMO developers explain their games mechanics. It's an old game, yeah, but they need to change with the times.

[Umichi]

But changing with the times is sometimes bad especially with something like this. Do you not see how giving people the information behind game mechanics makes the game less fun for people like me, a person who do not min/max or use alot of information to play this game? For example because they've divulged info in the past we now have people who tell you that if you don't play this specific way then you fail. Don't have this gear? Fail.. we get boxed into situations where only certain jobs are allowed to join events... and it's not because it's impossible to do without those jobs. it's because people only care about the resuts ala damage or some other elitest thought process.


and lets get one thing straight. Knowing what procs the stun rate for gungnirs ws is not a game mechanic the stun and shock spikes itself is the game mechanic along with the weapon itself.

[Caketime]

So you're saying that if we knew what procs the stun for this weapon's aftermath then people will suddenly start demanding x or y job or no invite? That's interesting.

[Umichi]

no but your taking my example and making it more complex. Also depending on how the stun procs then yes it might.. what if Drg gets forced into tanking because it can proc stun all the time?..



Back on topic i think this is a good thread to Discuss the possibilities of what procs Stun more often. has anyone tried fighting tougher monsters? what if the stun proc rate is tied in with the difficulty of the monsters? that would certainly make it seem as though there is no proc rate if people are fighting nothing but easy monsters.

[Caketime]

That actually wouldn't be bad, for a week DRG would be useful and loved until the nerf bat comes down.

[Rekin]

no but your taking my example and making it more complex. Also depending on how the stun procs then yes it might.. what if Drg gets forced into tanking because it can proc stun all the time?..



Back on topic i think this is a good thread to Discuss the possibilities of what procs Stun more often. has anyone tried fighting tougher monsters? what if the stun proc rate is tied in with the difficulty of the monsters? that would certainly make it seem as though there is no proc rate if people are fighting nothing but easy monsters.
Yeah no, already tried with the mobs in adoulin. proc rate is non-existent.

[Demon6324236]

last I checked the weapon is still top of the line so saying that knowing everything about this weapon should be common knowledge should be rethought.. just because you only see people online discussing it does not mean that it's a problem for the majority. most Drgs I know who use gugnir know that gierskogul has it's uses and also understand that it is not meant to replace every ws you own. It has it's uses especially being a single hit ws with high end damage. the only thing that doesn't make sense is agi modifier for the ws... but there are plenty of ways to add more damage to the ws than stacking AGI like oh lets say Fstr which is what your wanting to use for higher max damage per hit so the issue is minor in my opinion among other options... oh and make the defense down stackable...I have no idea what the actual weapon itself has to do with this, the entire subject is about the Aftermath being Shock Spikes, and us having no knowledge on what effects the chance of those spikes effecting a mob.


you also forget that the only people who deem gugnir useless are number crunchers, min/maxers.. they are only looking for the hypothetical set-up thats going to maximize their damage because we all know they only focus on how much zerg can they put into a gear set.Did I say the weapon was useless? No, if anything I said the Spikes are useless, and thats because the players, who we are, do not know what effects their incredibly small proc rate, so we can not increase its effect, maybe if someone at SE informed us how to do such a thing, it may become a defensive option weapon like Bravura, or Apoc, where as now, its a weapon that has high DMG but removes your Angon.


+40 acc(name a piece of weaponry, or armor for that matter with that much acc), defense down, a powerful ws that can self SC lvl 3 light (especially now, pre 75 it was harder and usually involved you using your 2hr to do it)

lets also not forget that theirs a 10% penalty somewhere on drakesbane unless you own ryunohige, so if your comparing drakesbane to drakesbane, gungir v ryu of course ryu is going to win. Gungnir still has higher base damageAgain, this is about the weapon, nothing to do with its Aftermath...


also last I checked @Caketime, a game developer has every right to pick and choose what info they want to divulge in Their game that You play, just because SE likes to hold onto old traditions doesn't mean they should buckle out of pressure or because "everyone else does it"Yeah, they have a right to keep info hidden, I have a right to do a lot of stupid things too, doesn't mean its right or a good idea though. Keeping info hidden is not always a good thing, like I said, look at your Lancer's Legs from this update. They had a flaw, an error, in these legs, one of which has been brought up a few times on their own forums and because they were not clear about its effects we had no idea what we were looking for, after all this time, finally, a bug report got to them that resulted in them fixing it. Had they told us its intended effects upon release, or a few months after release, in any of the threads questioning it, this would have been resolved quickly I am sure, because we could explain that through testing we had no results that agreed it was having said effect. Instead, we were left with a broken pair of legs all this time, that only now, more than two years later, it has finally been fixed.


on an unrelated note what level gungnir do you own @demon? have you done the magian trial to collect 250 umbral marrows yet?I don't need to own a weapon to know the Aftermath of a 7 year old weapon should be common knowledge by now to anyone who cares to know.

[Umichi]

are you saying you do not own a gungnir?

[Demon6324236]

Irrelevant, but no, and I don't care to.

[Umichi]

That was all i was asking..... <-.-;>

[Demon6324236]

I'm not trying to be a douche about things, but I half expect you to tell me that somehow my not owning a Gung makes my argument about wanting to know info about its aftermath invalid. I seem to disagree with you on SE sharing info, even if it is after a long period of time.

[Umichi]

"Seems" is inadvertently putting it lol. But I suppose so. Do you parse information? Do you .dat mine? What sort of material do you use for reading up on weapons or gear choices?

[Umichi]

and strategies for that matter

[Demon6324236]

"Seems" is inadvertently putting it lol. But I suppose so. Do you parse information? Do you .dat mine? What sort of material do you use for reading up on weapons or gear choices?Yes, no, I read how stats work, then make sets which can be used to maximum effect, as well as using the spreadsheets. As for strats I often wing it, experience is going to do a lot more for me than reading something someone did, the exception to this is when its either very restrictive, very costly to enter, or I have people counting on me besides myself who I do not want to disappoint with failure due to going in blindly.

Really though, the info they give us is pathetic in my opinion, because everything I use or read is made by the player base, or discovered by the player base, there are very few things they tell us we either don't already know (the enmity changes) or they tell us rare obscure things no one would normally figure out (/fume in VW) both of which are annoying. Things like Aftermath effects, % of Fast Cast on an item, HOW something enhances an effect, these should all be on the item or posted by SE somewhere, why must we hunt and test all of these things for basic info that should be on the item to begin? On top of that, after a certain point I think info should be given anyways, if we have not found out the effects of an item 3 months after release and are asking about it, tell us, its not like were asking you to share company secrets or something like that, its stats, on a piece of gear, in a game.

[Umichi]

And they've been doing that from the begining... idk why people are whining about it now... what if an item has a super powerful effect.... i don't think SE would want to ruin it for people who find small things that make what they do all the more better and gives them an edge over others.

[Demon6324236]

And they've been doing that from the begining... idk why people are whining about it now... what if an item has a super powerful effect.... i don't think SE would want to ruin it for people who find small things that make what they do all the more better and gives them an edge over others.Its not whining though, what if an item has a broken effect? We do not know its real effect it is supposed to have, because of this we can not make a bug report, we can not have the item fixed, instead it is tossed aside and left alone forever. I don't think SE would want to ruin their own items because players can not report the item is broken. By keeping basic info about items like this away from players they serve only to hurt themselves, it helps almost no one to do this. Besides that, I believe before they said they would put the stats of items on gear like Fast Cast or Snapshot but they can not fit it on the gear, so they do not, if that is true why not have somewhere they do tell us themselves, rather than making us figure it out? Some items like the RNG AF3+2 Head have stats like Snapshot in this case, and I can not find the value for that effect posted anywhere. Its been out for a long time now, but no info on community sites, and no info directly from SE, this seems like a problem to me, my want to get the item relies on that information, and without it, I shall not bother. Can you explain a good reason to keep these hidden that makes the game better not worse?

[Umichi]

We'll then it will fall into the pile of forever forgotten items until people bother doing something about it. sure you report in the english forums but if they return with a "Please refer to the community for help" then obviously they've checked things over and everything is working as intended. Weapons like the relics and so forth weren't just created in a few months worth of time, and I'm sure the development team spent plenty of time adjusting and balancing and scaling all of these weapons to be in line with what they truly envisioned for each job and class...

I'm not saying their aren't broken mechanics that happen in the game..... but there are plenty of people with these weapons and the only reason why they are deemed worthless these days is merely because people don't understand them. A community rep just came in and told you a specific fact straight up. And you blow up because he told you that's not correct, and the only reason your angry is because he actually said something relevant and to the point that requires you to go back and rethink how this weapon works.

That being said this game was intended for the players to not look at the math behind the game but what you can see. they gave us an inch by telling us some helpful hints like they always do for their FF games and the player base took it a mile by continuing to insist that SE needs to get with the times and become a modern MMO.

All the time i hear complaints and over the years i've seen comments made by the japenese developers about how they are sorry that it's hard for translations to happen and apologize that sometimes the way things are said can be misconstrued as other things.... and every treats them like crap.... especially after they explain they are maxed out on resources (ala staff is being so busy they can't focus on responding all the time.)

[Umichi]

Regardless of the matter the thread is derailed...

[Demon6324236]

I'm not saying their aren't broken mechanics that happen in the game..... but there are plenty of people with these weapons and the only reason why they are deemed worthless these days is merely because people don't understand them.For one, people do understand them. Gung specifically is broken in the fact its Additional effect is weaker than a DRG's Angon effect, yet overwrites it, that alone is a flaw in the weapon, by using a Gung you are instantly weakening the entire parties DPS even if it makes yours a little higher. To me, that dictates a weapon of which is worthless, were they to fix that problem, it would have a lot more use.


A community rep just came in and told you a specific fact straight up. And you blow up because he told you that's not correct, and the only reason your angry is because he actually said something relevant and to the point that requires you to go back and rethink how this weapon works.Not at all. The reason I am upset and angry is because the rep came in and explained that it is not what effects the proc rate of the effect. The weapon has been out for years, years... Why is it so hard for them to come in and simply tell us what it actually is? The effect does not even matter that much, its not like Shock Spikes would instantly make the weapon any more relevant than it is today, nor would it make it less relevant, it would be another effect people can try to use well, rather than having a 1% proc rate on a 1 second stun.

Now that I think of it...


the only reason why they are deemed worthless these days is merely because people don't understand them.Maybe people would understand the weapons if we did not have to spend months or years testing them to determine their effects?!

[Demon6324236]

Regardless of the matter the thread is derailed...Part of why is because you keep talking about the weapon itself, I couldn't care less about the weapon. I am talking about the aftermath, and the lack of knowledge about it, and SEs refusal to share info on it. What I am talking about seems to be very much on topic, discussing the effects of the Aftermath, and the fact that the Rep simply came in to say that we were wrong, nothing more.

[Umichi]

yeah thusly finishing this post unless, people want to theorycraft about what the proc is. the OP even stoped posting...

Relics defense down came out well before angon.... I'm sure it wasn't intentional and they have said that technical problems are the reason behind it and are looking for ways to bypass it.


and regardless of how you look at it the weapon is involved fully because look at how ryu is now.... giving info and tested by players before hand and they have deemed it Ryu or GTFO where's the fairness in that? Not everyone is a top end player with hours and hour of time to dedicate to building any of these items within a decent amount of time... Gugnir gets thrown in the pile because someone looks at one part of the weapon and goes bleh i don't understand it it's useless...

How many hours do you solo as Drg how many hours do you main as drg? ophannus said it himself he had a small sample size and parses always bring big sample sizes to the table. His theory was debunked thread derailed by someone complaining about him coming in and saying something and then we started having a discussion.

The issue at heart is there is a mechanic on the weapon that everyone keeps saying hey i want the info so i can exploit it more. and SE just said well ok but no

[Rekin]

Its more like we understand it to an extent that its possible to deem it worthless. As a Gungnir owner I've yet to find a meaningful use for the ws or its aftermath AT ALL. You can argue that its defensive but the spikes do no where near damage for its respective level(lets say 75) and the stun rate on TW mobs is less than 10%. The only thing. I repeat ONLY thing, I'll repeat once more to make it perfectly clear. The only thing remotely useful is the weapon's base damage. And if your cheap you can get def down on mobs w/o using angon at an unreliable rate and duration.

[Babekeke]

Gugnir gets thrown in the pile because someone looks at one part of the weapon and goes bleh i don't understand it it's useless...

It is not useless because people don't understand it, at all. It's not even completely useless, but it's situational at best. Generally people are interested in how much damage can I do with x weapon vs y weapon or z weapon. In this case, Ryunohige beats Gungnir. Even if the proc rate on stun from shock spikes aftermath was 100% the weapon itself would still only be situational at best. Ryunohige would still do more damage than it. If fighting in a group, then for it to be useful, the DRG has to be the one with hate. When fighting solo it is the only time that it really become better than Ryunohige, and even then, you're killing the mob slower by using Gierskogul rather than Stardiver or Drakesbane, which means you stand to take more damage in the long run.

Not to mention that most of the time when soloing, you'll be /rdm and can just put up ice spikes anyway, which is generally just as good, if not better than shock spikes.