So is delve for new lvl 99 players?

[Kirito_Wind]

So if you don't have the equipment to participate in Reives effectively, the delve is supposed to way for players to get the equipment?

[Vivik]

From what I gather Delve is an event for players who are geared/skilled above average. I think you're gonna have to have top tier gear and be pretty damn good at your jobs to be successful at this event.

[Luvbunny]

It looks like Legion, only 1-3% of the players will be able to access it, the rest would just ignore it. I hope I am wrong, and it's more like Meeble Burrow where all can come and participate.

[Karbuncle]

---- I know the tone of post can be taken a little insultingly, but please understand, I'm not specifically calling anyone here gimp, especially to you LuvBunny cause i half 'quoted" you a few times, I don't think anyone specifically is gimp or bad players, Just that when it comes to this content and its direction, Follow the Directors advice and work on improving yourself before tackling the harder-hard Content :)

So keep that in mind when you read the following, cause i got a little ranty in the beginning.

[Sfchakan]

---- I know the tone of post can be taken a little insultingly, but please understand, I'm not specifically calling anyone here gimp, especially to you LuvBunny cause i half 'quoted" you a few times, I don't think anyone specifically is gimp or bad players, Just that when it comes to this content and its direction, Follow the Directors advice and work on improving yourself before tackling the harder-hard Content :)

So keep that in mind when you read the following, cause i got a little ranty in the beginning.




Not sure why you weren't Liked dozens of times already. You are 100% correct.

[Luvbunny]

Reive gears are decent, some are mildly good than VW counterpart, others are better than empyrean +2. I am glad the gears are not game breaking but more of alternative options and yes, very accessible. Abyssea stuffs are very easy once you cleared all zone boss + Shinryu and have all the good atmas. But not easy for those who are new to Abyssea, no discernment atma, no good atmas or abyssite, and have to resort for random PUG who are all people in the same boat. It's funny to see a group wiped to Berstuk or Ironclad in Attowa :)

I am all about accessible contents regardless of your gears and skill levels. Yes, I know, it sucks to have to deal with people who have no clue on how to work as a group, or knowing what the job(s) can do, but hopefully most of them are willing to learn and get better. What I am hoping are more accessible contents (meeble is a great example, void watch - even when its crap RNG, abyssea pop items NM, all the neo events) that are not laggy (reives are very very laggy when more than 10 people participating).

Pre-SoA at least they give you tons of somewhat accessible content - with only very few in particular that is not as accessible, aka Neo Einherjar and Legion. Hopefully they continue the trend of accessible content, but it does not seem so with SoA - perhaps it will get more accessible in a year. It took a good year for Voidwatch to be accessible to all with the weakening items. Usually this is the direction they are taking, releasing contents that are "hard" then they tweak it to be more "accessible" within a year or so.

And I surely hope the colonization rate and access to the areas are not blocked in the future when very little of the players are participating in reives. I would hate to see SoA fate follow the same of WoTG... So basically if you like to get the first dip, rise to the "challenge" of cheap AOE insta death moves and NMs with tons of hp, bcnm that can only be accessed if you have 2 million gills or more, etc. Or you can ignore all of these for a year then try it once these events are adjusted and made more "accessible".

[Luvbunny]

---- Follow the Directors advice and work on improving yourself before tackling the harder-hard Content :)

LOL, I am worried their definition of "harder-hard" content is cheap NMs that insta death AOE your group - like ADL, Legion, etc. Or NMs that depends on server wide efforts to "Weaken" it (or in the case of WoTG - areas that are not controlled by beast men). It's been over a year now, they should further tweak Legion, similar to how they make Provenance Watcher more accessible.

[Alhanelem]

So if you don't have the equipment to participate in Reives effectively, the delve is supposed to way for players to get the equipment?
No, delve is aimed at the most fully geared group. Rieves don't require demanding gear except to tank/lowman. New Salvage is more aimed at those who need something a little less difficult to bridge the gap.

[Caketime]

No matter how much I try to think about gear progression via events logically, I still cannot get past the fact that we're collecting pants in order to collect slightly better pants later, or in the case of many sets of gear, pants that are somewhat better than these other pants on Tuesday, but not Thursday or Saturday.

Too many pairs of pants if you ask me.

[Alhanelem]

I'd rather wear no pants

[Asymptotic]

No matter how much I try to think about gear progression via events logically, I still cannot get past the fact that we're collecting pants in order to collect slightly better pants later, or in the case of many sets of gear, pants that are somewhat better than these other pants on Tuesday, but not Thursday or Saturday.

Too many pairs of pants if you ask me.

It's just like real life - you can wear your sweatpants in your college classes but you'll need to buy some khakis for that internship - and when you want to go out for that job interview in DC you'll need a suit - and then when you own the company you can show up in sweatpants and not a goddamn person can say a thing!

In any case, you have to wear pants you already have to go to the store in order to buy better pants.

[Caketime]

I'd rather wear no pants

Seconded. It's too hot for pants here anyway, unless you like ball soup.

[Zumi]

About legion though, the FFXI community doesn't really like it very much. You rarely see shouts for it. I seen maybe like 10 or so shouts ever for it. I always wanted to try it but every time I saw a shout for it I was already committed to doing something else usually joined a VW or NNI shout.

I am not even sure why people don't want to do legion.

[Alhanelem]

About legion though, the FFXI community doesn't really like it very much. You rarely see shouts for it. I seen maybe like 10 or so shouts ever for it. I always wanted to try it but every time I saw a shout for it I was already committed to doing something else usually joined a VW or NNI shout.

I am not even sure why people don't want to do legion.
It has good stuff, but it's not a walk in the park- so most of the people you see who've done it (and have the gear) are linkshells that have static'd it. A good range of jobs can do well there if everyone is competent, but that 'competent" stipulation means shouts are rare.

[Asymptotic]

Legion failed due to mediocre rewards and high level of effort required (people don't want to do expert level 18-man content for sidegrades)

[Yinnyth]

About legion though, the FFXI community doesn't really like it very much. You rarely see shouts for it. I seen maybe like 10 or so shouts ever for it. I always wanted to try it but every time I saw a shout for it I was already committed to doing something else usually joined a VW or NNI shout.

I am not even sure why people don't want to do legion.

Legion is harder than NNI, and if you want to win NNI, you'll need a good static or good luck (luck forming your shout group, or luck just getting a ton of free floors and single-enemy kill floors.... which almost never happens). So when it comes to people who do Legion, they form a linkshell and don't take kindly to newbs coming in and screwing things all up. And it's really easy to screw things up for EVERYONE in legion.

[Dantedmc]

It has good stuff, but it's not a walk in the park- so most of the people you see who've done it (and have the gear) are linkshells that have static'd it. A good range of jobs can do well there if everyone is competent, but that 'competent" stipulation means shouts are rare.

The main issue with legion is the huge gear check in combination with the party requirements:

-Do all of your whms have arise?
-Do you have two DHarp bards?
-Do you have three apamajas II + stunset schs?
-Do you have two parties of R/E/M DD?
-Do you have an ochain PLD?

Having all these at the same time can be quite the challenge, when previously the game pretty much required a party or less, and if it required 18 (i.e VW) the gear didn't have top notch on practically every party member with a high amount of party coordination.

This is all pre embrava nerf, I'm not sure how the event has changed afterwards.

[Alhanelem]

The main issue with legion is the huge gear check in combination with the party requirements:

-Do all of your whms have arise?
-Do you have two DHarp bards?
-Do you have three apamajas II + stunset schs?
-Do you have two parties of R/E/M DD?
-Do you have an ochain PLD?

Having all these at the same time can be quite the challenge, when previously the game pretty much required a party or less, and if it required 18 (i.e VW) the gear didn't have top notch on practically every party member with a high amount of party coordination.

This is all pre embrava nerf, I'm not sure how the event has changed afterwards.
I did a run not to long ago, and I was on GEO of all things... *nobody* had any of the stuff you listed and while we didn't win (due to stupidity, not lack of damage) we came close. Embrava isn't needed either. all of the monsters have noticably less HP at the same time that it was nerfed.

[Asymptotic]

*nobody* had any of the stuff you listed and while we didn't win (due to stupidity, not lack of damage) we came close.

You're talking about post-nerf Legion. What you're doing is basically the same thing as telling people that capped CoP mission fights weren't challenging because you just did the uncapped versions and they weren't hard. Legion was a completely different story before two rounds of nerfs.

Legion failed before they nerfed it, but it was dead on arrival anyway (by design).

[Alhanelem]

You're talking about post-nerf Legion. What you're doing is basically the same thing as telling people that capped CoP mission fights weren't challenging because you just did the uncapped versions and they weren't hard. Legion was a completely different story before two rounds of nerfs.

Legion failed before they nerfed it, but it was dead on arrival anyway (by design).
Yes, I'm talking about post nerf legion, that was the whole point. But i doubt you truly needed an army of 99 relic wielders to do it before that.

[Genoxd]

LOL, I am worried their definition of "harder-hard" content is cheap NMs that insta death AOE your group - like ADL, Legion, etc. Or NMs that depends on server wide efforts to "Weaken" it (or in the case of WoTG - areas that are not controlled by beast men). It's been over a year now, they should further tweak Legion, similar to how they make Provenance Watcher more accessible.

Based on your ffxiah profile, I doubt you've done 1/2 the things you're complaining about (not successfully anyways) The only job I'd guess you have any decent gear on is THF and that's basically worthless other then TH. Also no relic/empyrean/mythic not even the fake empyreans. I don't even see any weapons that are top of the line non-r/e/m weapons. Now obviously FFXIAH misses stuff so maybe you do have decent gear hiding away somewhere...but I would bet you clearly fall into the Empyrean +2 player base.

Before you start complaining about end game that you have no right to be a part of please go find a competent group of players and get some better gear so you can attempt to do these events (that at the moment are far beyond your gear level, wont make any assumptions on your skill) then by all means voice your complaints based on EXPERIENCE not hearsay.

Edit: missed a t in complaints

[Hayward]

Looks like this is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" in the case of the development team. Accessible gear (Empyrean +2 Armor, for example) just is not acceptable to some people who feel the need to look down on everyone else and the devs cater to these insecure gaming geeks with content that locks out anyone who doesn't have Relic/Empyrean/ Mythic weapons, VoidWatch gear, or New Nyzul gear. In some cases, the content is made practically unwinnable with most jobs (see New Nyzul, Legion, etc.).

One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

[Obysuca]

One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

Balance >.>

[Horadrim]

Yes, I'm talking about post nerf legion, that was the whole point. But i doubt you truly needed an army of 99 relic wielders to do it before that.

You don't -need- an army of RME to do ANYTHING. A bunch of gimps with common sense can do just about everything in this game. The problem is, common sense is significantly less common than RMEs are and it's easier to say "RME onry" than it is to explain to people a real strategy and expect it to be executed.

Everyone's in such an asinine rush these days. It's the same reason why folks refuse to let people re-stone in Voidwatch. "oh, its not hard at all to unlock all six stones." You know what takes even less time? Outposting to Valkurm.



One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

SE doesn't decide what jobs get to do things or not. My PUP, with Verethragna should I ever decide to finish it, could likely compete with MNK in damage in Voidwatch if I really put the effort in -- but its the community that decides "lolPUP, no thanks." Just like it did before.

That's why I hate whenever someone's response to me not wanting to keep investing in a job is "Well, that job's great in dynamis/limbus/salvage."

You mean shit people barely do anymore...? That every pet job or high evasion is "good" at?

[Demon6324236]

Yes, I'm talking about post nerf legion, that was the whole point. But i doubt you truly needed an army of 99 relic wielders to do it before that.The higher HP, damage, and evasion, yeah Ragnarok was a much needed weapon sadly.

[Luvbunny]

Based on your ffxiah profile, I doubt you've done 1/2 the things you're complaining about (not successfully anyways) The only job I'd guess you have any decent gear on is THF and that's basically worthless other then TH. Also no relic/empyrean/mythic not even the fake empyreans. I don't even see any weapons that are top of the line non-r/e/m weapons. Before you start complaining about end game that you have no right to be a part of please go find a competent group of players and get some better gear so you can attempt to do these events (that at the moment are far beyond your gear level, wont make any assumptions on your skill) then by all means voice your complaints based on EXPERIENCE not hearsay.

This is the same exact racism that should be eradicated from this game. Looking down and judging other players based on gears alone - and R/M/E weapons, LMAO. And trying to feel good by thinking you are above everyone else just because you managed to get them - meaning you just have more time or gil or willing to grind more than everyone else or just getting lucky at your Voidwatch drops. You should know by now that gears help a little bit, but skills and knowledge trumps gears. Telling people to "go get better gears" is your solution??

[Zagen]

This is the same exact racism that should be eradicated from this game. Looking down and judging other players based on gears alone - and R/M/E weapons, LMAO. And trying to feel good by thinking you are above everyone else just because you managed to get them - meaning you just have more time or gil or willing to grind more than everyone else or just getting lucky at your Voidwatch drops. You should know by now that gears help a little bit, but skills and knowledge trumps gears. Telling people to "go get better gears" is your solution??

The thing is, the more skilled you are generally means the better gear you have as a result...

[Yinnyth]

Looks like this is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" in the case of the development team. Accessible gear (Empyrean +2 Armor, for example) just is not acceptable to some people who feel the need to look down on everyone else and the devs cater to these insecure gaming geeks with content that locks out anyone who doesn't have Relic/Empyrean/ Mythic weapons, VoidWatch gear, or New Nyzul gear. In some cases, the content is made practically unwinnable with most jobs (see New Nyzul, Legion, etc.).

One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

Bayld gear is not accessible enough for you? How much more accessible should it be made? I have no desire to look down on people with worse virtual shinies than me, but I want the game to give me a challenge and entice me to find a way through that challenge with a shinier shiny than my current shiny. Shiny.

[Genoxd]

This is the same exact racism that should be eradicated from this game. Looking down and judging other players based on gears alone - and R/M/E weapons, LMAO. And trying to feel good by thinking you are above everyone else just because you managed to get them - meaning you just have more time or gil or willing to grind more than everyone else or just getting lucky at your Voidwatch drops. You should know by now that gears help a little bit, but skills and knowledge trumps gears. Telling people to "go get better gears" is your solution??

That's not racism, racism is the fact that I'm a Tarutaru meaning most people don't want me to go to Legion on a DD job because it's easier for me to die in 1 hit. You should learn the meaning of the words you use before you throw labels around.

I do not feel as though I'm better then anyone, I know for a fact that I have more skill than some and less than others. Gear and skill both have limits, this becomes very evident in certain events. I have lost many NNI runs because idiots with awesome gear cannot do lamps and no not listen. At the same time I have lost some NNI runs because I watched poorly geared players fighting mobs and not basically 1 shotting everything in sight. Or those who are unwilling to go the extra mile and buy multiple Powder boots.

I can't do anything about the idiots who can't do lamps other then not go with them again, however I can prevent the painful experience of watching a gimp SAM fight an EP mob forever by excluding them based on gear. Why should I set myself and 4 others up for failure? If someone wants to do NNI in pearl gear then they should shout and make their own group not expect me to invite them and waste others time.

My solution is not to tell people to go get better gear. There is a path of progress being created in this game, one that exists in many if not most other MMORPGs. You aim for goals that are within your reach, once you have obtained that gear you are able to progress to another tier of gear.

To the post above, I have no interest in them making Empyrean +2 meaningless. Growth is growth, at some point characters will grow to a point where adding new content must be made inaccessible to some or it will be far too easy for others. I'm glad it's not WoW where when a new tier comes out the old tier is completely replaced.
My SAM uses gear from AH, Dynamis, CoP(ring), Salvage, NNI, WoTG(earring), Abyssea, WoE, VW, and now SoA/Reives.

tl;dr?
There's nothing in this game that makes me feel better or worse then anyone. It's a videogame and I play to enjoy myself(for me story, fighting awesome monsters with a group, and setting goals to accomplish.)
Gear and Skill are both very important and both can only go so far. Your gear sets the cap on your skill. You can be the best player in the world but without the gear certain things will be out of your reach. NNI is again a great example. A timed event where you can be an amazing player, but if you can't kill fast enough you will lose.

Remember that you may be heard by making a lot of noise, but it doesn't mean anyone is actually listening.

Anyways, I'm out...Stopped reading 1/2 way through page one so I probably derailed this enough~

[Caketime]

Don't shit in the punch bowl and run away, it was just getting good. :(

[Luvbunny]

The thing is, the more skilled you are generally means the better gear you have as a result...

Not really, it just means you have more time than most people to play the game and grind more for your gears. Or in the case of Voidwatch - you get very lucky!! Or in Relic, you have more money than the rest of us. Or you use your blm or whm or beastmaster job to seal farms for your other jobs. Skill is your willingness to read information about that said jobs of your choice, then test the job abilities, and figure out what those actually do, and what subjobs combination is needed for certain things, and do more testing with your macro, and more fighting to make sure they work, and more practice, and more testing on soloing mobs or NMs, dealing with adds, playing defensively and not blow your entire tp in do or die mentality, how to kite, and time your macro on spells etc. And yeah, eventually, more gearing, which means more grinding for your Magian Trials weapons, or your gears.

[Zagen]

Not really, it just means you have more time than most people to play the game and grind more for your gears. Or in the case of Voidwatch - you get very lucky!! Or in Relic, you have more money than the rest of us. Or you use your blm or whm or beastmaster job to seal farms for your other jobs. Skill is your willingness to read information about that said jobs of your choice, then test the job abilities, and figure out what those actually do, and what subjobs combination is needed for certain things, and do more testing with your macro, and more fighting to make sure they work, and more practice, and more testing on soloing mobs or NMs, dealing with adds, playing defensively and not blow your entire tp in do or die mentality, how to kite, and time your macro on spells etc. And yeah, eventually, more gearing, which means more grinding for your Magian Trials weapons, or your gears.

What you've described is called research. Skill is the ability to apply knowledge gained from said research.

The point still stands a more skilled player will attain gear faster than someone with less skill. In many cases even faster than a player with less skill that happens to have more play time available to them.

[Sfchakan]

Not really, it just means you have more time than most people to play the game and grind more for your gears. Or in the case of Voidwatch - you get very lucky!! Or in Relic, you have more money than the rest of us. Or you use your blm or whm or beastmaster job to seal farms for your other jobs. Skill is your willingness to read information about that said jobs of your choice, then test the job abilities, and figure out what those actually do, and what subjobs combination is needed for certain things, and do more testing with your macro, and more fighting to make sure they work, and more practice, and more testing on soloing mobs or NMs, dealing with adds, playing defensively and not blow your entire tp in do or die mentality, how to kite, and time your macro on spells etc. And yeah, eventually, more gearing, which means more grinding for your Magian Trials weapons, or your gears.

You're describing the desire to improve and the motivation to research how, along with actually trying. Half of the stuff you listed are very feasible accomplishments for people of all playstyles and times.

You are part of what's wrong with these forums. They let everyone voice their opinion, no matter how worthless it is.

Personally, I love the new direction and approach the new director is taking. Some of us don't want everything dumb downed b/c unmotivated people can't steamroll it.

[Hayward]

You're describing the desire to improve and the motivation to research how, along with actually trying. Half of the stuff you listed are very feasible accomplishments for people of all playstyles and times.

You are part of what's wrong with these forums. They let everyone voice their opinion, no matter how worthless it is.

Personally, I love the new direction and approach the new director is taking. Some of us don't want everything dumb downed b/c unmotivated people can't steamroll it.

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!". I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

[Zagen]

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!". I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

What content is there that excludes BST and SMN? I mean every event I've ever attended has never said X job isn't allowed with the exception of the level 60 ENMs and limit break fights at level 70 (except GEO and RUN they're hosed there). You're confusing the content with the player base.

[Karbuncle]

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs

Okay, I'll take this challenge, mostly cause its impossible to lose. I have both SMN and BST, the problem isn't that the players are throwing the jobs away, its that these jobs both suck. Thats not player opinion, that mathematical fact. I have both of these jobs leveled, and while BST can come kinda-close to good DD numbers, SMN is just attrocious at everything its designed to do. Sh*tty mediocre buffs (sans 2), crappy Damage potential, Avatars have laughable DPS, and the job itself is resorted to its support job for any other uses outside of its mediocre pets.

But besides those two points, those jobs have their niche. SMN Has Alexander, and to a lesser extent, Shock Squall... which gets it in quite a few events, even Legion and ADL... and BST is the king of Solo, including in new Endgame, which a lot of new players suck at because they've never known BST before Abyssea, how to solo, Charm sets, Pet kiting, so on, so forth, so all these new T~VT mobs are wasted on a wave of NurseryNoobzuna's and their incompetence at playing this job. But despite that, They still rock in Dynamis and other Low-man/Oldschool content, which is actually good for what it is, money farming.

Are you the type of BST who doesn't know what Charm is? IDK, I'm not accusing you of such, simply that its a forgotten art to many. But the point of the matter is, both of those jobs have their niche, and while I'm not saying either are good or super useful, the players didn't design the game or the jobs, the Devs did... While these jobs are physically able to access said content, its true that those jobs are mediocre.

I wanted to address this seperately,


, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!".

Being efficient and wanting to not waste your time letting unique snowflakes pretend their job isn't flawed from the ground up in design and execution isn't being Elitist, its being reasonable. If i'm doing NNI, plain and simple, I'm neither coming on SMN or inviting one, they just aren't useful for that event, and tossing this "EVERYONE WHO DOES THINGS THE GOOD WAY IS ELITIST" attitude around just makes you look foolish and unreasonably insane at best, and downright Starcade at worst. Drop the "If they have better gear, they're elitist pricks" attitude and maybe you could try objectively looking at this situation rather than seeing it through angry red eyes.

[quote]I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.[/QUOTE ]

While i agree, I challenge you to create an MMO with a 10 year old battle system and 22 jobs, and make every sinlge job both unique and 100% Equally useful.

To put it boldly, it. is. Impossible.

The new director has the right mindset when he told us that its unreasonable and impossible to balance all 22 jobs to be useful in every single event, so he encourages us to level a variety of jobs and use the one best for the situation. Its just the best option. I love SMN, i love THF, hell I even enjoy paying PUP, all three of these jobs are less than wanted, but that doesn't squander any fun i have on them. I don't judge my job or how i play it based on how useful other people think it is.

I know THF is pretty low on the DD totem pole, even with a 99 Mandau, But it doesn't stop me. I know Melee SMN is Lawlzy, but it doesn't stop me from trying to make people go "woah..." that the potential is higher than they thought (though still mediocre, just higher than one could expect), and I still play PUP to solo, even in Reives, setting my WHM auto up on the root, keeping my party alive, and DDing like a boss.

The game is as fun as you let it be, and creating perfect balance is impossible with this game, but they're doing a good job (Sans RDM, SMN, BST, and maybe 1-2 I'm missing) trying to balance all jobs.

Again, Hayward, not that you're a bad player, IDK you, I don't know your jobs, i don't know how you play or if you have RME's etc.. This is just a general musing, the failings are there, and people need to accept there is 0 chance, even in new MMO's, for Devs to create ~20 unique and perfectly 100% Equal jobs without it just being pure dull.

[Sfchakan]

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!". I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

Want to know how I know you guys haven't done Legion? You both have SMN and are crying you aren't able to do it. I usually try to bring 2 to every Legion run I host. Most of the strategies posted online involve bringing multiple SMNs to PD difficult mobs. Merited BPs do great dmg on the turtles and other mobs.

As I said, you aren't trying, so stop complaining.

[Karbuncle]

The main issue with legion is the huge gear check in combination with the party requirements:

Challenge Accepted. Been in 2 (two) Successful Legion Shells, Pre-Nerf and Post-Nerf. So shall we?


-Do all of your whms have arise?

Not a single one.


-Do you have two DHarp bards?

Nope, Think one had Ghorn, had more COR's though, I think on a run or two we may have picked up a BRD with a Daurd.


-Do you have three apamajas II + stunset schs?

Had 2 SCH's who were there for various reason that had Stun Sets, though I don't see how being able to play your job made this bullet point, as any respectable SCH should have a Stun set, and APDKPAJAMAS isn't required, only helpful.


-Do you have two parties of R/E/M DD?

Kinda, I know we had some 90 EMPs, Think a single 99 Mythic SAM joined us most often, had an Apoc DRK... Not much else.

Not like an 85-90 Empyrean is super hard to obtain, But Yah, Thats the one thing most of them had, though i think there was a DD or two with the WoE weapon.

and a Relic can be solo'd to 95 by even the most casual of casuals, just takes time, investment, work, effort... Those things.


-Do you have an ochain PLD?

Another Yes, We had one holding the mobs. But you could shout and find an Ochain PLD in probably 5 minutes or less, they're insanely common cause Ochain, while harder than some Empy's, are still lulz easy... If you're not lazy (like i am), You could probably get one in 2-3 Weeks if you've got liberal playtime and motivation, 2-3 Months if you're sooper-dooper lazy.


Having all these at the same time can be quite the challenge, when previously the game pretty much required a party or less, and if it required 18 (i.e VW) the gear didn't have top notch on practically every party member with a high amount of party coordination.

This is all pre embrava nerf, I'm not sure how the event has changed afterwards.

I will however break to say, I agree that this event is a little absurd, while not as hard as people constantly describe it (hint: most of the time its not your gear, its the level of idiots you play with... Sorry), Its still a bit of crazy for the path the game was going in at the time.

HOWEVER< i think the biggest reason Legion was a failure was that most of the rewards were just rediculous sidegrades, and even a bigger handful of them were just pure sh*t, half the drops looked like they could easily have come from Tier 1 Abyssea NMs or Walk of Echoes... the other half was so situational it was mediocre. The rewards just flat sucked except for maybe 1-2 pieces for SMN.

Again, You don't need all of the above, and difficulty is directly proportional to the intelligence of the group, while there is a gear check (Hint: DESIGN ASPECT OF MMOS), its not as severe if your players know what they're doing. stun sets, etc etc etc. :)

------------------------

POINT 2!


Looks like this is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" in the case of the development team. Accessible gear (Empyrean +2 Armor, for example) just is not acceptable to some people

Its a little hypocritical to mention Ego's then go on a tangent about how we're all elitists or ruining the game and stuff.

But lets adress the point. Empyrean+2 is pretty much accessible to anyone short of completely lazy, that crap can pretty much be Solo'd now, hell I think a BST Can solo it. Its stupid easy and, did i mention, STUPID easy? If people are having trouble with abyssea content, they're doomed from the beginning.

And no, before anyone mentions it, Its not because of RL, Jobs, blahblah, I have been in and out of work over my FFXI Career, But I worked full time for a good chunk of it, and even now I work full time at a daycare, and still managed to access Skirmish inbetween having a life. Using playtime or "RL" as an excuse is basically saying "I'm lazy, and could get the gear, But instead of acknowledging my laziness, I'll blame the Devs for making it too hard, and Call anyone who tells me i can an elitist".

People use RL as a crutch/excuse for being lazy then blame anything they can because they aren't spoon-fed progression. Empyrean Armor is probably the easiest, short of Reive armor, things to obtain in this game that are unreasonable powerful for the lack of time you need to invest in them. You could get a piece of +2 Armor in a matter of 2hours if you know what you're doing, and for a super casual, you could probably get a piece a day if you can make time for it.

Even if you're casual and can only play 2 hours a day once a week, If you're motivated, you can get your armor in a month or so. And if you can only play 2hours a day once a week, you need to realize there is no MMO for you, and that if this is your schedule, accept that unfortunately there is no content designed specifically to cater to that demographic of people that offers uber top-tier spoon-fed gear, and there never really will be. I don't like busting out the harsh truths but if you can't put in the same time as anyone else, you shouldn't expect the same rewards.

I wouldn't work 20 hours a week then demand a salary for a full time employee simply because I feel entitled to it, Its just looney.


One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

I can answer this: People have multiple jobs.


Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

Can't speak for him, But Empyrean+2 is unlikely to completely faze out of date for some jobs, but not for all... Its just going to happen as all gear does, but its still a splended, and in some mage jobs, irreplacable gear set.

Plus, While i know I have an ego on me, You'd be arrogant not to realize that you sir also have one that can be seen from Orbit.

All in fun though, I mean, You seem reasonable, you just need to chill in your posts (admittedly so do it) and try not to just assuming everyone who disagrees with you or has better gear/more time to play is a "no life" or "elitist", cause its not only insulting to those of us with a life who have this stuff, it makes you look like a bigot and ignorant person, which ain't cool.

Edit: And my entire relic was self-funded and farmed with friends. It took me months, and I worked hard for it, Bought very little currency that wasn't gil from Selling currency i got from my Dynamis runs... If i can do it anyone can... I hate grinding >_>

[Sfchakan]

I will however break to say, I agree that this event is a little absurd, while not as hard as people constantly describe it (hint: most of the time its not your gear, its the level of idiots you play with... Sorry), Its still a bit of crazy for the path the game was going in at the time.

HOWEVER< i think the biggest reason Legion was a failure was that most of the rewards were just rediculous sidegrades, and even a bigger handful of them were just pure sh*t, half the drops looked like they could easily have come from Tier 1 Abyssea NMs or Walk of Echoes... the other half was so situational it was mediocre. The rewards just flat sucked except for maybe 1-2 pieces for SMN.

A few other items are/were worth the investment, like Duplus Grip, Hugin feet abj (top notch for multiple jobs to TP in), Fulad Zerah, and some others. I will definitely agree that there should have been more quality rewards, though. The majority of people in my shell want the same 2-3 items per hall and not much else. :)

[Karbuncle]

I was under the impression Fulad Zereh was worse than Aramada-1 With Augments, and essentially a 30mil town piece D:?

Duplus Grip, however, i think was the one fine example of "The least they could do... no.. really" in terms of upgrades :P, But still a solid upgrade, full and agreed.

[Sfchakan]

Fulad's not a TP piece, it's a WS piece. I know it's best in slot for PLD CdC.

[Alhanelem]

The new director has the right mindset when he told us that its unreasonable and impossible to balance all 22 jobs to be useful in every single event,I agree, but a somewhat less impossible task would be to create events that demand jobs other than the flavor of the month/year. WoE sorta did this where any of the pet jobs make it much easier. this is true to a lesser extent with reives (can win easily with pet jobs, but "winning" doesn't necessarily earn you rewards, especially if there isn't anyone else around, forcing you to sic a pet on the main target while you hide in the corner), but often the problem is just player mentality, where no matter how easy it is to beat some event with X job, if you can do it faster with Y or Z job, everyone will go Y or Z and X will get left in the cold even if X makes things easier.

[Dantedmc]

Challenge Accepted. Been in 2 (two) Successful Legion Shells, Pre-Nerf and Post-Nerf. So shall we?


-Do all of your whms have arise?

Not a single one.


-Do you have two DHarp bards?

Nope, Think one had Ghorn, had more COR's though, I think on a run or two we may have picked up a BRD with a Daurd.


-Do you have three apamajas II + stunset schs?

Had 2 SCH's who were there for various reason that had Stun Sets, though I don't see how being able to play your job made this bullet point, as any respectable SCH should have a Stun set, and APDKPAJAMAS isn't required, only helpful.


-Do you have two parties of R/E/M DD?

Kinda, I know we had some 90 EMPs, Think a single 99 Mythic SAM joined us most often, had an Apoc DRK... Not much else.

Not like an 85-90 Empyrean is super hard to obtain, But Yah, Thats the one thing most of them had, though i think there was a DD or two with the WoE weapon.

and a Relic can be solo'd to 95 by even the most casual of casuals, just takes time, investment, work, effort... Those things.


-Do you have an ochain PLD?

Another Yes, We had one holding the mobs. But you could shout and find an Ochain PLD in probably 5 minutes or less, they're insanely common cause Ochain, while harder than some Empy's, are still lulz easy... If you're not lazy (like i am), You could probably get one in 2-3 Weeks if you've got liberal playtime and motivation, 2-3 Months if you're sooper-dooper lazy.


Having all these at the same time can be quite the challenge, when previously the game pretty much required a party or less, and if it required 18 (i.e VW) the gear didn't have top notch on practically every party member with a high amount of party coordination.

This is all pre embrava nerf, I'm not sure how the event has changed afterwards.

I will however break to say, I agree that this event is a little absurd, while not as hard as people constantly describe it (hint: most of the time its not your gear, its the level of idiots you play with... Sorry), Its still a bit of crazy for the path the game was going in at the time.

HOWEVER< i think the biggest reason Legion was a failure was that most of the rewards were just rediculous sidegrades, and even a bigger handful of them were just pure sh*t, half the drops looked like they could easily have come from Tier 1 Abyssea NMs or Walk of Echoes... the other half was so situational it was mediocre. The rewards just flat sucked except for maybe 1-2 pieces for SMN.

Again, You don't need all of the above, and difficulty is directly proportional to the intelligence of the group, while there is a gear check (Hint: DESIGN ASPECT OF MMOS), its not as severe if your players know what they're doing. stun sets, etc etc etc. :)




I'm curious as to your definition of successful, since your set-up sounds unorthodox. Were you only barely clearing wave #3 or were you going farther? Were you often winning mul and with how many kills?

I ask because I'm not sure how you even had a stun rotation with only two schs. Speaking specifically about sch I know I had to make an additional macc set separate from my haste and fast cast set even WITH apamajas II due to how resistant some of them are (i.e mantis). And no stunning really wasn't a common occurrence on sch before Prov / Legion. I had a set beforehand, but it was not nearly as intricate as it is now. So it's not too difficult to imagine that some schs wouldn't have that sort of gear.

And hint: no the group I played were not idiots :rolleyes:

[Karbuncle]

I'm curious as to your definition of successful, since your set-up sounds unorthodox. Were you only barely clearing wave #3 or were you going farther? Were you often winning mul and with how many kills?

I ask because I'm not sure how you even had a stun rotation with only two schs. Speaking specifically about sch I know I had to make an additional macc set separate from my haste and fast cast set even WITH apamajas II due to how resistant some of them are (i.e mantis). And no stunning really wasn't a common occurrence on sch before Prov / Legion. I had a set beforehand, but it was not nearly as intricate as it is now. So it's not too difficult to imagine that some schs wouldn't have that sort of gear.

And hint: no the group I played were not idiots :rolleyes:

Successful = Clearing Wave 3+ Consistently. I think in one instance i remember getting to wave 5, I think this was the one with the Harpy/4Swordguy? While I'm sure other groups have done better, for our group, it was more "We have good-to-great geared and skilled players, heres the plan, lets follow through".

Our first few runs were atrocious, but once we got into the swing of things, its when we began clearing more easily. the Second shell had most of the first shell, it was just under new leadership and had new faces.

Legion is really not that hard. It just takes open cooperation and everyone needs to know what they're doing. Mantis i admit was a bit difficult to stun, and at time even with the PAJAMAS II, can resist... Him, we didn't really try to rely heavily on Stun, and more tried to kill it before it killed us (Also utilizing available Weapon Bash to assist on he off chance...), Having our SCH have/build M.acc sets wasn't rough, and APAJAMAS would have been nice, but I don't think either had one. While i can't go into the intricacy of strategy, what you described is what all Legion groups have some trouble with, those particularly cheap mobs that are just plain annoying, and there is no skilling around cheap and bad design :|, which Legion does have a few of.

Now, if you have everything you listed, and still didn't quite clear 3+, I do have to apologize and say it was lack of cooperation or player understanding, not the event. However with a set up like you described, it would definitely make the event more easy-mode.

I think the second shell is still active, though i haven't been with them for a bit because of other matters :|

[Quixote]

No matter how much I try to think about gear progression via events logically, I still cannot get past the fact that we're collecting pants in order to collect slightly better pants later, or in the case of many sets of gear, pants that are somewhat better than these other pants on Tuesday, but not Thursday or Saturday.

Too many pairs of pants if you ask me.
This is one of the reason I feel the game serve no purpose at the moment and might as well not participate on anything new till the end game is defined. At this point I am just probably looking for a good story line gladder than gear to be honest. So we most proceed in this order ? Empy +2 > VW armor > Meeble > neo Salvage, > neo Nysul > ?????

[SNK]

This is the same exact racism that should be eradicated from this game.

lol wut? How is having crappy gear/being lazy denoting racism?

[SNK]

Fulad's not a TP piece, it's a WS piece. I know it's best in slot for PLD CdC.

I was pretty sure Kariyah Hauberk kinda won over Fulad's or I could be wrong I dunno.

[detlef]

Successful = Clearing Wave 3+ Consistently. I think in one instance i remember getting to wave 5, I think this was the one with the Harpy/4Swordguy? While I'm sure other groups have done better, for our group, it was more "We have good-to-great geared and skilled players, heres the plan, lets follow through".So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.

[Karbuncle]

it was a LS i was in, not mine. cant take credit for their victories... just had good people and good leaders.

that and like any group we did not have a perfect record

[Dantedmc]

Now, if you have everything you listed, and still didn't quite clear 3+, I do have to apologize and say it was lack of cooperation or player understanding, not the event. However with a set up like you described, it would definitely make the event more easy-mode.


Yes we won with consistency, this is why I'm listing the sort of equipment I've observed.


So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.

That's why I'm skeptical. I mean that could probably work in one of the lesser halls, but I doubt Mul was cleared consistently with the listed set-up when mobs like Gallu are factored in.

[Karbuncle]

Mul was a pain in the but5. sorry cant explain in super detail cause im posting from a 3ds and its a pain

[macross]

Where do you think arise and meteor comes from? That = the best drops from legion, not to mention the ormolu ingots.
If not for people doing legion arise and meteor would cost you 50m or whatever unless you were somehow lucky and got it from prov.

Learn some teamwork and get stuff done, and don't complain its too hard.

[Miiyo]

About legion though, the FFXI community doesn't really like it very much. You rarely see shouts for it. I seen maybe like 10 or so shouts ever for it. I always wanted to try it but every time I saw a shout for it I was already committed to doing something else usually joined a VW or NNI shout.

I am not even sure why people don't want to do legion.

Because they would've gotten curb stomped. The "ungimped" legion was fun. Some of the rewards are nice. The abjuration gear was not thought out very well however.

It's not a very shout friendly event since there are roles that have to be played and minimum gear requirements. As to how the majority of the player base is mediocre, you sooner end up with a waste of time than a success. It was an event aimed at long time players that wanted a new challenge.

[Miiyo]

Looks like this is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" in the case of the development team. Accessible gear (Empyrean +2 Armor, for example) just is not acceptable to some people who feel the need to look down on everyone else and the devs cater to these insecure gaming geeks with content that locks out anyone who doesn't have Relic/Empyrean/ Mythic weapons, VoidWatch gear, or New Nyzul gear. In some cases, the content is made practically unwinnable with most jobs (see New Nyzul, Legion, etc.).

One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

No. Not at all for ego issues. It's because some of us have had Empyrean +2 Armor for 3 years and cleared voidwatch and legion a long time ago. That is why new challenges and new gear come out. Because there are players who play for a long time and have obtained "good gear" and need an appropriate challenge. My question is why are you guys bitching about harder content? Why MUST you do THIS content just because it's there? Why MUST you skip over other things like getting an empyrean weapon, or nyzul gear, or salvage gear, or einherjar, or voidwatch, or legion but yet you MUST do Adoulin and Delve?

The cycle is: grow to obtain something. When you have obtained it, don't you need something worthy of using it on. At the same time, This something worthy needs to give a reward suitible for the effort put in to be able to triumph over this feat. With that reward you seek a challenge worthy of using it on...

[Miiyo]

So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.

In Mul, more than 2 deaths shouldn't be happening. Elemental seal on the Mantis for stuns. I dunno, we don't normally have a problem with it. I've always gone with groups similar to Krabnuckle's and on Mul we've reached up to 5th wave multiple times. I'm sch and my stun macro consists of Chatoyant, Hyaline Hate, Nares Saio, Sweven Slacks +1, Nares Clogs, Repartie Gloves, and a few other +1/2 pieces. I don't have any problems.

[detlef]

In Mul, more than 2 deaths shouldn't be happening. Elemental seal on the Mantis for stuns. I dunno, we don't normally have a problem with it. I've always gone with groups similar to Krabnuckle's and on Mul we've reached up to 5th wave multiple times. I'm sch and my stun macro consists of Chatoyant, Hyaline Hate, Nares Saio, Sweven Slacks +1, Nares Clogs, Repartie Gloves, and a few other +1/2 pieces. I don't have any problems.Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

[Yinnyth]

Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

Oh, oh, I'll take this one. Because you don't want to seem like an elitist ass?

You are allowed to hold your linkshell to certain standards, but expecting your legion whms to already have the one big prize legion has for whms is... dumb. It's like refusing a sch from your nyzul static because they don't already have full nares. That's the whole freaking reason they're willing to come along.

[detlef]

Wait... it's elitist to expect WHMs to have a 4m spell for probably the most demanding event in the game at the moment? And we're acting like WHM is their only job and Arise is the whole reason that any WHM would want to do Legion? I don't even want to start this argument because we're obviously too far apart to come to any sort of agreement.

[Hayward]

I took this from the Alla forums to illustrate my point more clearly. Draw your own conclusions.




They need content that's fun but challenging, with a difficulty level high enough to appeal to those more veteran players. There's a lot of content out for the more casual ones, but there's nothing I'd consider difficult content wise right now. Sure, how they said it probably wasn't the most eloquent way of putting it, but I understand the reasons behind them saying that.

I think it was perfectly eloquent if you understand the Japanese way of thinking, which in this case has a lot more common sense than the American way of thinking of entitlement. In their culture, it's okay to cut your teeth, and they would rather risk making it harder on newcomers (if not outright condone this) than offending their loyal, dues paying, members. This is the way practically all memberships work in Japan.


The underlying thinking of this post is about as offensive as it can get--I won't even get too deep into the "American entitlement" BS. Even worse is that this mentality is being applied to a game.

[Caketime]

Wait... it's elitist to expect WHMs to have a 4m spell for probably the most demanding event in the game at the moment? And we're acting like WHM is their only job and Arise is the whole reason that any WHM would want to do Legion? I don't even want to start this argument because we're obviously too far apart to come to any sort of agreement.

HEY NEW LEGION WHM, Y U NO HAVE ARISE ALREADY?!

I'm hoping that by being obnoxious you see the point very clearly.

[Karbuncle]

Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

I see Arise as "If you have it, I love you, but if you don't, Whatev's we'll just have to prepare for the 5min weakness like we've done for the other 9 years it didnt exist". I can't expect it, cause as yinnyth said, Its pretty much the only reason a WHM only would do Legion >_>;, But I mean, Its very nice to have, but I'm not booting a WHM for not having it so long as they're competent in other regards.

Again, really nice to have, and a real help, but nots win or lose or boot worthy IMO, though I understand how some groups would need/expect that net, mistakes happen

[detlef]

HEY NEW LEGION WHM, Y U NO HAVE ARISE ALREADY?!

I'm hoping that by being obnoxious you see the point very clearly.You needn't post in that style. It's not necessary.

I don't know, don't we have standards for DDs? Don't we have standards for PLDs? Why are healers exempt from this? Do people consider paying 4m for a scroll to be excessive?

[Karbuncle]

They aren't exempt. Their standards are "Better Reaction speeds than a carrot" and more gear sets than Full Emp+2. Obviously everyone has different standards, but the convenience of shaving 2 minutes of weakness is not worth taking a moron who doesn't play the job well over a WHM without Arise who is competent and gear aplenty and knowledge to use it.

If you can find a great WHM with Arise? f**king Bonus, But I'll sooner invite a WHM who remembers how to Erase and does the job well over one who has Arise. My Standards are all on reaction speed and knowing how to use the gear you got, not a 4mil spell that drops from the event I'm inviting them for (and thus they will likely get it in time)

Basically, I don't think Having Arise is akin to having an Empyrean. The Level of performance in a DD with an emp/Rel/mythic95-99 vs one without is worlds apart, the difference between a WHM with or without Arise is a convenience of 2 minutes. One could of course argue that 2 minutes worth of DPS lost could equate to the difference in a 99RME vs a non, But that hypothetical person would not be me, as It would have to assume every DD dies at least once or some crap and I'm not willing to get into that kind of hypothetical debate >_> too much work lol.

BASICALLY FK YA ARISE BUT NOT WORTH WEEDING OUT OTHERWISE GOOD MAGES FOR IT. 'MURICA.

[detlef]

Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.

But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?

[Karbuncle]

4mil is actually quite out of reach of most players these days still. Even a great WHM might not be able to make money like most, soloing Dynamis, or Salvage, so forth. While I won't pretend 4 Mil is unreasonable for anyone to get, I'm personally saving my gil for Skirmish items, which offer better rewards than Legion by about a thousand miles... so if i got invited to a Legion on WHM and was asked to shell out 4 mil for Arise, I'd politely decline and instead buy another Rala Visage or Faithful Leg/torso.

Basically, the rewards from that event are pretty downright crap or sidegrades outside of 2-3 Pieces tops, outside of Arise itself, WHM's have no real reason to bother, so asking them to purchase the item they're probably at the event to get Isn't making any friends and a little unreasonable.

What it boils down to is I feel Arise is a convenience, a d*mn good one, but not required for me to win, so I wouldn't weed out a WHM for not having it. If i felt it was necessary to win the event, I'd hold the same standard as you.

[detlef]

Well if we disagree on the difficulty of making 4m to buy your job's ultimate spell (I don't really mean this but it sort is the trophy spell) then I guess we will just have to disagree on that.

I also think it's illogical to assume that a WHM would have no other jobs leveled and therefore have no interest in any other drops. Why would this particular WHM with only one job want to buy a skirmish item? Are the WHM augments awesome?

[Horadrim]

Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.

But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?

Yes. It is, because while its great, it doesn't actually "improve" the person as much as it affords them a nice little "hey, look at this!" trick. Arise isn't really a game changer, its an awesome spell, but it's not going to be a deciding factor. (I kind of wish Arise was a merit and the scroll was for Arise-ga <-- THAT would be something I'd demand people get)

It's a luxury spell. Hell, some people would even consider Raise III a luxury spell with how expensive that can get -- but I'm of the mind set that R3 is part of the base set a WHM should have. It's like when I randomly hop on BLM, a job I have no real interest or concern for using beyond for procs in abyssea while working on seals/+2 items for jobs I actually like and people get on my case for not having Warp II.

I carry a warp scroll and two warp clubs on my person at all times, even when I'm on BLM I have them because I never take them out of my inventory. It is cheap and simple to facilitate your own transportation around in the game and the idea that people feel justified in hassling someone for not dropping half a mil or hours of their own time to save you 15 seconds and 10 conquest points seems incredibly silly to me.

Comparatively, Arise -- even though it is 10 times more useful -- is just one of those great things that helps, but will never be the difference between a win or a loss in any event. It's just a nice, bonus thing that makes life a bit easier in certain pressure situations, but a good WHM should be able to function just as well without it. Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."

That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."

My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"

[Karbuncle]

Oh i know a WHM might have other jobs, which is why a specified a "WHM Only" in one of my posts. Still, as i said, I see where you're coming from, but I don't feel on the semi-rare occasion an important DD is murdered, shaving off 2 minutes is worth saying "no you can't come WHM".

Basically good players are in short supply, If i had ready access to good WHM's with Arise, they'd be on WHM, But given the choice, I'd chose a good WHM without arise over a bad one with it, or even an average one with it. It does just boil down to preference really, as its not an insane standard, just one that, if i had like you did, I'd probably break or bend it quite often ;p

[detlef]

Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).


Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."

That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."

My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.

Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.

[detlef]

Also Karbuncle, the reason I picked up on the single job thing is because you specified that a Skirmish piece would be a more worthwhile purchase, but that didn't seem to make sense for a person with only WHM leveled. Realistically, people have many jobs today. I think we can generally assume that our WHM in question has multiple jobs leveled. Arise would be nice but nowhere near the only draw, drop-wise.

[Horadrim]

Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).

I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.

Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.

Not disagreeing with the utility of it, just saying that there are some things you still, no matter how useful, hold over people's heads.

Again, just my opinion. Personally I think I'm moving towards avoiding most end-game events in this game (lack of good people to do them with, and way....waaaaay tired of random think-for-yourself'er LSs and PUGs), so it isn't really any of my concern.

[Caketime]

You needn't post in that style. It's not necessary.

I don't know, don't we have standards for DDs? Don't we have standards for PLDs? Why are healers exempt from this? Do people consider paying 4m for a scroll to be excessive?

I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.

[detlef]

I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.I feel like you are trying to start a fight with your posting style. It would be difficult to put jobs side by side and figure out who has to farm more for their gear. While a melee might have to make an empyrean or relic weapon, a WHM might be expected to have a good idle set, capped cure potency, and good reactions. Wouldn't you say that for WHM, you don't need to spend a lot of gil on gear to get it up and running?

Strictly from a gil standpoint, only Raise III and Arise come to mind as expensive scrolls. Arise may represent a few Dynamis farming runs, but like I said earlier, Legion is currently the most challenging content in the game. It's not like I'm saying that Arise is required for VW or something.

[Caketime]

Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise. Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.

[detlef]

Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise.I agree with you, time and gil are essentially the same thing. Every minute you spend online has its worth. I disagree with your claim that you can look like a clown and be completely functional. Since you did say this after all.


I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job doesI agree that WHM is less gear dependent than many jobs (you can have the absolute pinnacle of WHM gear and still be terrible). However, gear still makes you better. Just like Arise makes you better.


Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.My Legion group is probably similar to yours. We have ups and downs. We have catastrophic wipes, we have runs where an additional mob could have been killed if we had more time or we had performed a little better that day. We have had runs where almost everything has gone right. People die sometimes.

Yeah, every time you cast Arise, it represents something bad happening. But you have to recover from that and move on. You try to do the best you can the rest of the run. Chances are, the person who died is important to the run's success. Therefore, getting him up and running as quickly as possible so he can do his job should be a priority.

[Caketime]

Keep in mind that functional is not optimal, and can even be far less than optimal and still work in some cases. For example, capping cure potency gives us a huge variety of options (this is how to look like a clown) with varying degrees of performance. A WHM using Orison bliaud +2 with capped cures will have a different gearset than a WHM that uses the body slot to cap cures, both are at cap for potency but one is more efficient at mitigating damage.

As for gear dependancy it's really about what you're willing to put in, just like with every other job. Do I want to spend 4m on Arise? No. Will I? If I absolutely must, but I'm hoping to get it in a drop.

[detlef]

This is better. I think the back and forth has been more constructive than your original comment. Your view is a fair one. Functional WHM builds are straightforward to construct and can be very effective in the hands of a good player.

It's gotten lost a bit, but the original comment was about what was viewed as necessary to succeed at Legion. I still think that in order to do well, you have to have minimal standards/expectations of players. These standards should be higher than something like pickup voidwatch because Legion is more challenging and require more coordination for the entirety of a run. I understand that a group just starting out shouldn't expect to have all these things in place. We didn't when we started.

However, now that good working strategies have been developed within Legion, even people who haven't participated (but would like to) can have a good understanding of how to win with a little research. You'll need good stunners, good healing and support, exceptional DDs (your definition of exceptional may vary), and a good PLD who can hold the mobs you aren't fighting. So I think it's fair to have a certain expectation from each participant, because everybody has to pitch in to make the run successful. I view Arise as something that WHMs can bring to the table that makes the group better in a real way. I still think somebody who wants to participate in Legion should be willing to purchase Arise because it is no longer an exorbitant price, but obviously not everybody agrees. That is okay, even if I don't understand it. Although I guess it makes me an elitist ass as Yinnyth says.

[Caketime]

I've never met an elitist open to conversation about anything, so you're doing it right as far as I can tell.

[Asymptotic]

Most of the high-level players in the game are all about sharing information - actually! If you show a willingness to learn and a desire to improve you'll be accepted just about anywhere

[Kincard]

I don't mind them trying to add in difficult events, but personally I wish they'd stick more to ~6 man events because gathering and managing 18 people is honestly more difficult than the event itself. That's how I feel about it, at least. I did Legion a few times and I honestly would've loved doing it a lot more if it wasn't so bothersome to even get that many people together at all.

I hope Delve will be like Salvage 2.0 in the sense that it doesn't require you to bring the maximum people it can hold, but I don't want it to be like Salvage 2.0 where it punishes you for bringing more people. I guess something like Meebles would work, where you get a significant increase in your points if you bring lots of people, with the addition of maybe having more drops slots if people come. I want to be able to play the content without having to worry too much about having my schedule happen to sync up with 17 other people.

[Horadrim]

New Info about Delve on the site. (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/adoulin/index.html).

I think I already know one of the Fracture entry points -- there's a weird crystal structure in Ceizek. Must be one of the places you start a Delve.

[Caketime]

Dat mage gear. Ick.

[Mefuki]

...personally I wish they'd stick more to ~6 man events because gathering and managing 18 people is honestly more difficult than the event itself.

...I want to be able to play the content without having to worry too much about having my schedule happen to sync up with 17 other people.

This right here. Hard enough to get people for VW clears as it is.

[Horadrim]

This right here. Hard enough to get people for VW clears as it is.

Yeah...

I don't think the death of Linkshells has dawned on them yet...


Dat mage gear. Ick.

Pretty much all of the SoA gear has given me that response.

I really wish we could get a "costume" system where you can appear to be wearing whatever you want but the stats of your actual gear...

[detlef]

This is taken from Slycer's post at BG (it's not so bad guys):


After collecting Mweya Plasm, the npc Forri-Porri in Western Adoulin (I-10) will exchange for items. Even if you have enough points, however, you will still need to complete certain goals in order to exchange for items. For example, if you want to exchange for items that boss monsters drop, you will need to defeat those boss monsters at least once.When Legion was first introduced, the way they initially framed it was that Legion points would be able to be exchanged for NM drops. But then it turned out that Legion points could only be exchanged for far more lackluster items, many of which would only be useful inside Legion.

I hope that this Matsui post is actually true and that in time you can collect enough points to purchase even direct drops from bosses.

[Luvbunny]

This right here. Hard enough to get people for VW clears as it is.

If you give it a year or so, things could get easier and more accessible, it's a big COULD, since Legion is a year old and it is nowhere easier or accessible and still not that many shouts. Co-ordination for 18 people is definitely more challenging especially if half of them are pick up groups. Who know - maybe in a year big LS with drama-rama will make a come back. Just ignore SoA, give it a year and try again, probably will be much better (or worse). If you don't do SoA contents then everything that you have up to now is still great and very valid.

[Yinnyth]

If you give it a year or so, things could get easier and more accessible, it's a big COULD, since Legion is a year old and it is nowhere easier or accessible and still not that many shouts.

Yes it is. Especially if you get yourself some of those skirmish or Naakual weapons. It might also take us a little while to work out the details, but things have definitely changed a bit in there. With some of the setups I've gone with, some of the enemies just get drop-kicked in like 20 seconds by the melee zerg. Just gotta figure out how to make that repeatable and consistant, and legion will become a walk in the park. Well, a park full of colossi who have one vulnerable spot on their body you just need to stab a couple times.

As far as making it more accessible, it used to be 36 peoples onry, didn't it?