Delve Deeper into Seekers of Adoulin!

[Camate]

Greetings,

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui about "Delve," the new content that will be implemented during the version update set to take place at the end of the month.



Delve and Content Level

We will be implementing Delve in the end of April version update.

This content will allow you to obtain equipment and enhance them without having to fully complete the content (e.g. defeating the boss), so there is a wide range in the content level (*) between the beginning and the boss.

Give it a shot, and if you feel it's kind of tough, defeat the Delve NMs, obtain the equipment you can get from points and then enhance them. Or try to get the rewards from Skirmish and the equipment that can be bought with Bayld.

Also, in regards to the content level for the Skirmish content which has already been implemented, it is on par with that of the new Salvage and Nyzul Isle Uncharted Investigation, as well as the equipment you can receive through Bayld.

If this also feels a bit too tough for you, try your best to obtain gear from the new Salvage content and through reives. Once you've procured equipment from these, it should feel much easier than when you began to do the new Salvage content.

This new content is being released in a state that has been adjusted for the top players, but we plan on making adjustments to this content for players challenging it afterwards once we implement newer end-game content.

Also, in regards to the content level, the development team is currently trying to zero in on the precision through trial and error, so I would like to continue to post explanations on this.

*Please read my post here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31250-To-all-adventurers-and-pioneers%21?p=409591&viewfull=1#post409591) for my explanation on content level and the level design for content of Seekers of Adoulin and beyond.

[Kaisha]

Just hope they actually tested this content themselves and beaten it this time around, unlike previous events that were nigh impossible without abuse of certain abilities (which have since been nerfed into the ground) and exploitative strategies such as complete stun-lock rotations.

[Sargent]

Also, in regards to the content level for the Skirmish content which has already been implemented, it is on par with that of the new Salvage and Nyzul Isle Uncharted Investigation, as well as the equipment you can receive through Bayld.
I think most people's issue with Skirmish at the moment is actually getting the simulacrum. As of now you can only obtain pieces through;

HELM, lowish rate of obtaining them
Coalition Assignments (very low rate)
Reives (see above)
Soul Pyres, of which only 6 can be up at any given time and drop rarely (then you have to open them which can prove impossible dependent on terrain).
Auction House/Bazaars. Yours for the low price of 10~20m each on Leviathan (30~60m per pop)

It's OK making content difficult to do based on the rewards and with Skirmish the rewards are very good, but unless you want to spend millions per attempt entering at all relies too heavily on luck. SE should at least look into easing how to obtain simulacrum.

[Luvbunny]

I think the developers have good ideas, but they are very bad at implementing it, and not doing proper testing instead using players to be the tester. And for the love of god, please make that risk-reward ration BETTER!!! There is no reasons to punish the players who want to try it first. And bad reason to do things extremely conservative. Look at abyssea and please follow the risk reward ratio there. We want to be able to advance a little at a time with no time or effort wasted. I rather do the abyssea style grind where every little bit of effort is advancing me a little further.

[Yinnyth]

Look at abyssea and please follow the risk reward ratio there. We want to be able to advance a little at a time with no time or effort wasted. I rather do the abyssea style grind where every little bit of effort is advancing me a little further.

You can have a very large reward/risk ratio without making the game as easy as abyssea. Modern NNI is a good example of this. The risk is tiny. 1 failure is only 30 minutes lost. The reward is massive. Everyone in the group gets 1 piece of their choice, plus a pouch of alexandrite and random armor drops.

The difficulty of this event is higher than most other events however. While it's true that a really good group can get unlucky, or a really bad group can get lucky, both try again 30 minutes later and over a series of runs, skillful play is gradually rewarded.

[FrankReynolds]

Do they pay you well to write that stuff? I don't believe I've ever heard anyone describe NNI in such a pleasant light.

[Infidi]

Do they pay you well to write that stuff? I don't believe I've ever heard anyone describe NNI in such a pleasant light.
He's just never had lamp floors ? XD

[Ica]

The risk is tiny.

My computer, the window I sit next to, and my sanity are all at risk each time I attempt NNI.

[Yinnyth]

Do they pay you well to write that stuff? I don't believe I've ever heard anyone describe NNI in such a pleasant light.

I have 2 characters I maxed out on NNI gear with 2 different statics. Both statics took some "breaking in" before we got the hang of it and started working well as a team together, but around the time we finished everyone up with gear, we were approaching a 50% win rate. Our average number of floor jumps per run was in excess of 17 in my first static, around 16 in my second.

And NNI will only continue to get easier and easier as better equipment becomes more readily available. Yes, lamp floors are a pain until your group learns a good system for dealing with them. Always buy sprinters drinks. One person can hit 3 lamps on a "same time" floor if they pop sprinters.

Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean I also don't enjoy it. Take neo Dynamis, for example. I have a large amount of hatred for it. I preferred the older version because it required more teamwork and strategy. The exact same reason I enjoy NNI. Just a pity I really have nothing left to gain from it, but I have tagged along in random pickups every now and then.

[Mayoyama]

My computer, the window I sit next to, and my sanity are all at risk each time I attempt NNI.

30+ 2-3 floor jumps in 8 runs and regularly timing out coz of kill all floors on F99 with 25 mobs at max level? Sounds about right, and clearly working as intended -.-

[Elphy]

idk why ppl complain constantly about lamp floors, kill all floors are a much bigger bother. if you did regular nyzul 1-100 so you understand how they work and decided on a system before hand, unless you have a complete idiot in your run the lamp floors shouldnt be an issue, esp since they reduced the timers

The only time we had issues on our lamp floors was when someone who had no idea what they entailed lied about having ever done 1-100 old nyzul and just spammed enter on the lamp. needless to say he was quickly replaced

[Elphy]

Greetings,

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui about "Delve," the new content that will be implemented during the version update set to take place at the end of the month.

new content doesn't = good content.

please fix what you released before you add insult to injury

[Yinnyth]

new content doesn't = good content.

please fix what you released before you add insult to injury

Are you aware they increased bayld gain from reives earlier today?

[saevel]

We were never supposed to reliably get to floor 100, ever. We were supposed to constantly throw ourselves at random content for a year or more before finally quitting over sanity issues. Now SE's slowly scaling it down and making it more accessible as it's been around awhile.

I expect the exact same for the "Delve" content, to be nigh impossible upon release. Players will find a way around it and only those players praying at the temple of the azure undergarments will be able to acquire the loot. Eventually SE will start reducing it's difficulty after they create newer content in another year or two.

[Imakun]

I just hope this new content comes with all the fixes and additions to things that already exist in the game right now.

[Insert rant about the vague promises SE made about your favorite job/event here].

[Luvbunny]

Basically the new contents are window dressing, often designed to be "not beatable", enough to stall your progress for a good 6-8 months before they decide its time to adjust the difficulty. But if your group manage to beat it using new found strategy that actually maximize your gain, you can bet 100% that said abilities will be adjusted so that contents once again will take a lot longer to beat and everyone is stalled once more for another 6-8 months. So yeah, I do wish they test these contents first and not use us as the beta tester.

And to those who keeps screaming Abyssea is too easy... just remember, it was not easy back when it was first released, it was quite difficult. And for returning players who have to experience it without a lot of outside help (which often the case) - it can still be difficult and daunting, and sometimes often result in wipe on fighting the simplest NM. But Abyssea rewards your effort little by little and it gets easier at the end.

[Caketime]

Digging that "suck less" attitude from the Producer.

[vienne]

And to those who keeps screaming Abyssea is too easy... just remember, it was not easy back when it was first released, it was quite difficult. And for returning players who have to experience it without a lot of outside help (which often the case) - it can still be difficult and daunting, and sometimes often result in wipe on fighting the simplest NM. But Abyssea rewards your effort little by little and it gets easier at the end.

Really I just have to know, have you ever made a post after abyssea was released where you didnt praise it?
More content? Yes please, give me a reason to log in.

[Luvbunny]

A good contents give people reasons to play it - and it can be addictive even if it is very grindy. You can try to kill it, by dangling newer things, and yet still you cannot pry people's attention out of it no matter how hard you try. The rewards are just that good? or more that it rewards your efforts and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and it makes you feel good overall. I don't recall these many threads regarding Abyssea's problem, they didn't do that many adjustment compared to SoA. They were indeed very slow with WoTG adjustment, extremely slow, even to this day, when lots of people are asking so you can skill ups in Campaign - still ignored.

I am being vocal so that they are doing more in adjusting SoA content. A few good adjustments are being made. And a few puzzling questions regarding hate on pet jobs are at least being explained. Hopefully all good adjustments are not going to take years like WoTG but a mere 4-5 updates which should translate to being a year. I am just hoping that a year is not too long for people to stick with it, hopefully they can focus and addressing all these issues and fix most of them with the April update. No need to give people more reasons to complaints.

[Yinnyth]

I don't recall these many threads regarding Abyssea's problem, they didn't do that many adjustment compared to SoA.

You don't recall many threads complaining about abyssea?

A request for changes to abyssea VNMs:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12522-Improving-Abyssea-VNM-System?highlight=abyssea

Complaints about how much competition there is for abyssea VNMs:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12099-Abyssea-Congestion...-VNM?highlight=abyssea

Complaints in German about Abyssea VNMs:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11342-VNM-in-abyssea?highlight=abyssea

One of many requests to up the level cap in Abyssea:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13078-Abyssea-lvl-cap-increase?highlight=abyssea

Complaints of NM monopolization:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8976-Abyssea-Konschtat-and-Fitsule?highlight=abyssea

You creating a sarcastic post immitating all the abyssea haters:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26581-Could-everyone-just-leave-Abyssea-content-and-let-it-die-already?highlight=abyssea

One of those haters complaining that Abyssea exp killed the game:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18538-abyssea-leveling-is-killing-alot-of-the-game.?highlight=abyssea

Y U NO double exp in Abyssea:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/30263-Whats-the-point-of-a-double-xp-weekend-if-it-doesnt-affect-abyssea-or-gov?highlight=abyssea

Number of chests that can be up at any given time in one zone:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8924-Increase-the-number-of-chests-that-can-be-up-at-once-in-abyssea?highlight=abyssea

Complaint that abyssea drop system turns endgame linkshells into feral beasts with no respect for one another:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4412-Abyssea-End-game-shells-and-my-thoughts-and-oppions-about-them?highlight=abyssea

More haters saying Aby killed exp:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4469-My-abyssea-song-(-i-would-try-make-a-video-if-i-knew-how-lol)?highlight=abyssea

Someone saying to destroy abyssea completely and getting over 20 likes:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4945-Get-rid-of-abyssea?highlight=abyssea

Someone thanking SE for Abyssea and getting 0 likes(I'm sure this will change shortly after I post this though):
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2351-Thank-you-for-Abyssea-SE!?highlight=abyssea

As for "they didn't do that many adjustments compared to SoA", here are a few of the adjustments made to Abyssea over the years:

How you purchase keys.
How you infuse atma.
Multiple ???s for NMs.
Adding some NM pop items to gold coffers.
Ability to view your remaining time and current lights by /healing.
Making it so players can't kill certain mobs on a cliff to avoid getting hit by AoEs.
Chocobo blinkers.
The ability to destroy chests for cruor.
Adjustments to which spells were needed for procs (so one blu could have them all equipped at a time).
More sources for seals and stones/coins/etc.
Increased stack size on Empy weapon drops.
Various tweaks and changes to Bastion (particularly NPC behavior)

Edit: I should really clarify the point I'm trying to make here. I'm not saying I have the opposite opinion of you and think Abyssea was the worst thing to happen to this game. I'm saying:
1. There are many MANY complaints about Abyssea
2. There have been many MANY changes to Abyssea
3. Number of complaints and number of fixes made are not accurate metrics to judge how good or bad an expansion or ingame event is.

Other things unrelated to my wall of text I would like to add:
4. The enmity and defense changes are seperate from SoA. Even if you don't purchase the expansion, you still got that update.
5. I personally find SoA very addictive, I'm sorry that your experience is different. I don't have enough hours in the day to do everything I want to do right now.

[Luvbunny]

I don't know what you do in SoA that is addictive. Whacking roots with extremely bad lag is not my idea of fun to be honest. Going to another area to do different reive where no one is around and your shout for location is ignored for 20-30 mnts is also not fun. Getting measly bayld is also not fun, yes they up the amount you can receive but for some reasons I can't get more than 1k coming as RDM which is a job that do A LOT of things.... They seriously need to revise -again - on how mages can get bayld in reives. Not to mention in the crowded areas, reives are done in 5-8 mnts max which translate to pitiful bayld.

[Yinnyth]

Following the cycle in Yahse or Morimar often turns out quite lucrative for me, though there are times of day that simply won't work for it unless I grab some interested people and form a group myself. Since the update, I've had reives that give my dualboxed rune 5k bayld and my bard 4k bayld.

The key to successful reives is balancing the damage you do to the roots/rocks/hive with the actions you take on enemies. If everyone is slaughtering mobs and one beastmaster pet is the only thing hitting the roots, no one will get much bayld per evaluation. If everyone is slaughtering the roots and just sleeping or supertanking the mobs, you don't get many evaluations and not much time to rack up points anyways, so again, not much bayld. If you're duoing, sure, one guy keeps the mobs busy while the other kills roots. If you have 4 people, 2 on roots, 2 on mobs. When you start to get up to 8-12 people and above, you want slightly more people on mobs than roots. When it's over 12 people, you want groups on both sides of the roots so you have access to all the mobs. And always go for the reive unity scores. I also recommend popping your SP at the start of the reive if it's a long duration one like soul voice or tabula rasa, and don't be afraid to use it mid-way through the fight if it's shorter duration.

If reives groups suck or I'm tired of them, I go mining in Morimar. Haven't really figured out how that fatigue or critical quarry mess work out yet, but I've made a little bit of gil off ore. Also did the mummer's guild minigames to get myself some spectacles incase I find a statue in a pyre. Hoping I can make some even better gil off those if I start finding them. Aside from that, there's my completion footwork I've been slowly chipping away at. Build fame in Adoulin, get all my waypoints, etc.

[Luvbunny]

Still does not solve the lag problem though. It is horrible when you have a lot of people, and because the area is so small, it's even worse than Walk of Echoes. You went to try to attack or nuke, and the mob is dead. And yes I alternate between attacking mob and roots. This weekend was really bad in terms of rewards, getting a measly 1k and even ZERO....if that is possible, and I was doing everything from healing, attacking, buffing, etc. And yes I have the key items logging and reive unity.

The problem with Reive is that you cannot control the players, it's whackaton everyone do what they want type of thing. Even if you manage to make an alliance, you can't control the random single or duo that join. When you have 18 people in that crowded area, the lag is very very bad. Hence a lot of people just come melee since auto attack and WS is easier than trying to do everything. With Reive Unity KI - you almost don't need healer, which kills any chance of WHM getting bayld from curing. In crowded areas, not even worth doing it, but if you go to Moh or Sih gates, there are like 6 random people, so you can't really do it on your own either.

[Nephilipitou]

Still does not solve the lag problem though.

The problem with Reive is that you cannot control the players, it's whackaton everyone do what they want type of thing. Even if you manage to make an alliance, you can't control the random single or duo that join. When you have 18 people in that crowded area, the lag is very very bad.

Fact of the matter is there are so many ways to fix your issue.

1. Keep up with your IMPs as these can be almost like what? 6-8k bayld a day for showing up to a reive, letting people beat it, turning it in, and then going back out.

2. You can store imps for later and then just do them rapid fire one day.

3. You can find a static for Reives and earn your Naakual bayld by doing the easier reives with your static. You're going to need team work for this stuff anyway right?

4. You can do non combat related tasks.

5. You can do peacekeeper's Reives with fewer people

6. You can just go do content to make you lots of gil, and then buy items off the AH, and then convert those items into Bayld using the IMP system.

7. You can go to less crowded areas and do shouts in Jueno to get people interested in earning bayld the right way

8. You can coordinate with your LS.

There's lots of solutions to your issue. The problem is I don't think you care about compromise.

[Luvbunny]

Yes, I have been doing the delivery one so far, since it is less "lag" and non combat related. And yeah I stored the tags by signing up for ones I never intended to do and retrieve them later so I can spam 30 tags at once. It still does not solve the lag issue on the reives, the fact that mages still not earning enough bayld, and the fact that you have to do so many of these to rank up on each individual coalition. It's a decent start, maybe in 4-6 months it will be more bearable, assuming more people are doing it and they must love whacking roots since that is all there is to do for peacekeepers, in every single zone... I rather do a kill 5 mobs type of activities and get rewarded.

[Yinnyth]

Roots, rocks, and nests are what you do for bayld so you can get access to other things. Just like how you don't actually want to kill Baba Yaga repeatedly, you just want to pop Carabosse so you can get gems from her over and over again until you have enough to upgrade your empy to the next level.

People are still beating up pixies so they can pop Baba Yaga, so I can only assume people will still be beating up roots 3 years from now.

Yes, I have been doing the delivery one so far, since it is less "lag" and non combat related. And yeah I stored the tags by signing up for ones I never intended to do and retrieve them later so I can spam 30 tags at once.


No point of playing as "paying beta tester" - I ain't going to suck it up and deal with it, it's best to avoid the content till more adjustment is being made.

I'm glad you've changed your mind and decided to play with us. That's not even sarcasm, it's honesty. It shows you're dedicated to the game even if it turns a direction you're not currently happy with.

[Sarick]

I only see the SAME hardcore players condescending Luvbunny about her negative dislikes yet, I rarely see anyone talking about how wonderful this game is publicly. The opinions of zealous players that like the changes seem entirely one sided. No amount of mistakes will ever result in failure.

Did it ever occur to you that some people just don't like the new design? I've also played FFXI since the PS2 launch I'm not playing ATM. I hear garbage about the SoA expansion not being installed on other parts of the game world but the development changes from it affect hate and core combat in nearly every aspect. Also, the new systems are just rehashes of old systems created as time syncs with minimal rewards.

Fact is not everyone is openly complaining every day. Why? because its of no consequence or resolve. Players that openly defend the development team are merely obsessive tools that represent no one but themselves. The development can make no wrongs in their eyes even if the subscriber base is rapidly dieing in the background.

Right now things are still new, the fresh lure binds a few less active players to the world for a short time. Unfortunately, this won't last long mark my words and these temporary gains will vanish. Walk of echos was once popular now it's not so much. This game reminiscent of how drugs effect addicts. Each time they take a hit they need more drugs to feel better. When the drug wears off the lows become worse. In this respect the expansion was an injection that brought back a few players but it'll make people want more then previous expansions to stay.

I'm in full support of what LuvBunny has been saying and no amount of arse kissing from condescending tools is going to change those opinions. I believe the developments direction is headed the wrong way and we'll soon see results that shed light on reality over blind support. What I see is the blind leading the blind not the other way around.

Don't feel like typing anymore so ta ta..

[Horadrim]

You can have a very large reward/risk ratio without making the game as easy as abyssea. Modern NNI is a good example of this. The risk is tiny. 1 failure is only 30 minutes lost. The reward is massive. Everyone in the group gets 1 piece of their choice, plus a pouch of alexandrite and random armor drops.

The difficulty of this event is higher than most other events however. While it's true that a really good group can get unlucky, or a really bad group can get lucky, both try again 30 minutes later and over a series of runs, skillful play is gradually rewarded.

Doesn't stop people from being assholes about it, though.


I only see the SAME hardcore players condescending Luvbunny about her negative dislikes yet, I rarely see anyone talking about how wonderful this game is publicly. The opinions of zealous players that like the changes seem entirely one sided. No amount of mistakes will ever result in failure.

Go to the WoW forums, the League of Legends forums, SWTOR, GW2, or any other forum.

Find me consistent posts of people praising the game and talking about how much they enjoy it. I'll wait.

This argument does nothing but show you don't really understand how gaming communities work -- no one, even for offline games, comes to the forums to talk about how amazing and awesome the game is. Even on say, the Pokemon forums on Gamefaqs you rarely see someone pop in just to say "omfg, I love how they improved this!"

People who like things tend to invest their time into enjoying them. Forums, for the most part, harbor people who are either unhappy for one reason or another or who want to be privy to new information as it arises within the community. Does that mean that the prevalence of negativity is indicative of a bad product? No.

There's such thing as the vocal minority -- No matter how you spin it, forum goers represent a relatively small portion of the game's community, even within FFXI's diminished numbers. I did a tallying of the number of active members on Killing Ifrit way back during FFXI's prime and the numbers added up to significantly less than 10% of the community. I have my extreme doubts that the number of people here (considering after only 2-3 months back I can recognize most people posting by their sentence structure with how common we all are across the forum pages) breaks even that percentage of the game's active community.

EDIT:

And of course some people don't like the new design. You can't please everyone one -- and if they tried to, we'd be worse off.


Fact is not everyone is openly complaining every day. Why? because its of no consequence or resolve. Players that openly defend the development team are merely obsessive tools that represent no one but themselves. The development can make no wrongs in their eyes even if the subscriber base is rapidly dieing in the background.

No, you're an obsessive tool. Just because people can enjoy something you don't like doesn't make them bad in any way. Especially when we're talking about a video game. People don't post because NOT EVERYONE GOES TO FORUMS. Check out the activity community numbers for any game, I'd bet money you won't find a single community, no matter how big, that has more than 10% active members on their forums compared to their estimated total player base.

The company does plenty wrong in my eyes and has for years (I'm a fucking Puppetmaster since the beginning, I've got more to complain about than most of the community purely on that basis. Not to mention my earlier time as DRG and SMN), but I'll defend them in scenarios where rampant negativity not only doesn't serve a purpose but isn't justifiable.


I'm in full support of what LuvBunny has been saying and no amount of arse kissing from condescending tools is going to change those opinions. I believe the developments direction is headed the wrong way and we'll soon see results that shed light on reality over blind support. What I see is the blind leading the blind not the other way around.

The irony of this is amazing to me. It is one thing to have conflicting opinions with people, but to follow someone purely because the general tonality of their opinion maxes the sensationalism you feel is necessary is just asinine. I'm sorry, but if the game is so far gone that it makes you so angry, you should probably step back and re-evaluate your 14 dollar investment.

I have plenty of problems with the game -- and more problems with the community -- because I seldom find myself so engrossed in my displeasure with the go-nowhere-because-we're-trying-to-by-time updates nor the dick measuring contest elitism that I actually insult individuals GENERALLY. Even at in my angriest, most condescending posts I try to maintain that the overall purpose is a pointing towards logic and practicality in some fashion.

I just don't get why you folks, who try to claim that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a blind idiot, are even here.


Yes, I have been doing the delivery one so far, since it is less "lag" and non combat related. And yeah I stored the tags by signing up for ones I never intended to do and retrieve them later so I can spam 30 tags at once. It still does not solve the lag issue on the reives, the fact that mages still not earning enough bayld, and the fact that you have to do so many of these to rank up on each individual coalition. It's a decent start, maybe in 4-6 months it will be more bearable, assuming more people are doing it and they must love whacking roots since that is all there is to do for peacekeepers, in every single zone... I rather do a kill 5 mobs type of activities and get rewarded.

I was in a group with a summoner who claimed to be earning 2-3k per reive spamming AoE heals with Carbuncle... So I'm going to have to disagree.

I have a friend (all she plays is SMN and WHM) who loves reives and has earned over 150k just from doing them for a few hours each day with her husband and their LS. Last time I asked her, she was approaching 200k -- it is really just about sticking to it -- just like building chains in abyssea. What you need to do is accept that you have to work with groups to get good rewards. I went on Geomancer for like 15 minute minutes and earned almost 600 bayld for 3 reives... so I don't get this claim that mages aren't getting credit.

Sorry that you don't get rewarded for barely trying, but complaining that you don't get rewarded for less than half an hour's investment is like me claiming I should be able to buy all of my the AF3+2 for all of my jobs (I really need to stop leveling jobs to 99, as a side note...) because I have "Better things to do."

Fun fact, Reives can be a 5-6 man event. Moh Gates tends to be empty, and with a PLD or DNC you can cap your contribution pretty dang quickly by focusing on the mobs instead of on the roots.

[Demon6324236]

I love how I'm an obsessive tool defending SE who I believe can do no wrong, even though most of the time I complain about almost every post that is made by them. Fact is, the expansion is new, I myself am willing to give them some time before I go out and say they fucked up, its simply a matter of patience, I rather wait and give good feedback and see where it goes than to simply drop it and say it sucks.

[Luvbunny]

Roots, rocks, and nests are what you do for bayld so you can get access to other things. Just like how you don't actually want to kill Baba Yaga repeatedly, you just want to pop Carabosse so you can get gems from her over and over again until you have enough to upgrade your empy to the next level.

LMAO you are comparing SoA to Abyssea which is a huge difference. Carabose kill can be repeated over and over solo or duo, yes it is annoying when you come there on a busy night, the same goes to Heqet and Gukumatz. Huge difference. You can't really solo the reives, a minimum of 3-4 people is required since there are 2 things to do.

I am realistic, I know they will need a good year to make SoA somewhat interesting (hopefully I am wrong and within 3 updates, they can fix TONS of thing). But you guys should look back at the history, which often repeat itself over and over. Anything that requires server wide participation usually die down once the glitter and luster is wearing off, thus new players or returning players in 2014 would probably have a harder time clearing the game. Abyssea is different - it lets you to just log and play, solo or duo, trio or 6 man, or alliance. From total noob to expert, all are being rewarded all the same.

I think they even know about this, hence a lot of recent content pre SoA are geared toward 3-6 people. And the mighty Voidwatch also given some sort of weakening items so that less than 18 people can clear it. I also realize that general players do not respond too well on "assault type" activities, anything with tags that required "Static" group. It's surprising that Meeble is not that popular since the activities are varied and it required teamwork. The reality is, the mentality of the players changed, they now want a "log and play" type of events. Not something that required solid static and lots of investment. But more of a short burst of "drugs", you do it quickly, you get the rush, you log off. That's why it's hard to kill Abyssea - it gives you exactly that, ability to mix and match the atmas, and have fun at each of the 22 jobs without being restricted.

In all honesty, this game is all about grinding to infinity, and beyond, over and over. But there are fun grind and there are boring grind. Obviously it would be different from person to person. SE tends to "move on" and quickly forget older contents even if people are still interested and hoping for some sort of fixes. Campaign and Walk of Echoes are good example of contents that are quickly forgotten by the developer. People asked for single entrants for Assaults and Salvage, yet being ignored still to this day. So what's to say that a year from now, nothing will be done over Reives, and it too, will be forgotten by the developer.

All will depend on FF14, if the ARR launch is successful and managed to move a great deal of FFXI subscribers plus a bunch of new players (and returning players) then FFXI will die down very slowly till it no longer generate enough profit. If ARR failed to attract a good numbers, then they will have to do another add ons similar to Abyssea that inject a huge dose of fun to FFXI to maintain interest. At least till ARR can be deemed profitable, which probably once they release the first expansion. As you are well aware, tons of promised contents have been scaled back in FF14:ARR, no longer be available on launch day.

[Yinnyth]

I only see the SAME hardcore players condescending Luvbunny about her negative dislikes yet, I rarely see anyone talking about how wonderful this game is publicly. The opinions of zealous players that like the changes seem entirely one sided. No amount of mistakes will ever result in failure.

I'm sorry that I sound condescending, I assure you it's not my intention. I realize that we are all players of this game, and as such we are all cut of the same cloth. You don't see people talking about how wonderful the game is very often for the same reason you don't see people who have been married for 10 years talk about how wonderful their spouse is very often. The relationship has been going on a long time. Nothing is new enough to spark that deep interest that got them together in the first place. Some people are very dedicated and continue loving their spouse even as day-to-day life becomes routine and humdrum.

I can also make insulting overgeneralizations which dehumanize players who disagree with me and discard their opinions as "all the same" and "unimportant". But you play the game and have an opinion so even though I lose my cool sometimes, I never try to discard your opinion as something with no value or relevence. That would be true condescension.

Instead, I'm trying to show that I, and other players, enjoy things about the game that you don't enjoy. Hopefully maybe I can teach one other person to enjoy it the same way I do, but even if I can't, maybe I can get them to leave it alone so they don't convince the devs to change what I like about the game.


Did it ever occur to you that some people just don't like the new design? I've also played FFXI since the PS2 launch I'm not playing ATM. I hear garbage about the SoA expansion not being installed on other parts of the game world but the development changes from it affect hate and core combat in nearly every aspect. Also, the new systems are just rehashes of old systems created as time syncs with minimal rewards.

Of course it occured to me that people don't like the new design. I'm sure it must also occur to you that there are people who enjoy the new design.

What was the last battle system or expansion that was added to the game that you genuinely enjoyed and didn't want to complain and/or suggest changes about? Even if there was one, I assure you there were several different people who complained about it. What makes a game entertaining varies from person to person which is why we have such widely varying games like Madden NFL(sports sims), Dynasty Warriors(bodies flying in every direction), and Xenosaga(90% cutscene, 10% gameplay).

So when something is added to the game, everyone has their own opinion on how it should be different. Give the players a forum where they can leave feedback for the devs, and it becomes a never-ending deluge of complaints and suggestions regardless of how good or bad the game actually is. People crave change, and they're not afraid to ask for it.


Fact is not everyone is openly complaining every day. Why? because its of no consequence or resolve. Players that openly defend the development team are merely obsessive tools that represent no one but themselves. The development can make no wrongs in their eyes even if the subscriber base is rapidly dieing in the background.
I don't know what I have done to offend you so, but it seems the damage has been done, so I can only apologize. If you truly believe I think the devs can do no wrong, please refer to the threads I started during the time Dynamis was changing. I fought those changes with everything I had, and after the changes had been made, I whined and complained that it sucks and suggested changes to make it stop sucking.

Yes, the devs can, and have done wrong in the past. The devs can, and will do wrong in the future. However, I almost always universally oppose anyone who says something like this event is too hard or not rewarding enough when it first comes out. I also find "the whole game sucks", "the devs can do no right", or "I'm quitting" threads and posts to be repulsive examples of how not to give feedback.

[Yinnyth]

LMAO you are comparing SoA to Abyssea which is a huge difference. Carabose kill can be repeated over and over solo or duo, yes it is annoying when you come there on a busy night, the same goes to Heqet and Gukumatz. Huge difference. You can't really solo the reives, a minimum of 3-4 people is required since there are 2 things to do.

I chose to compare it to Abyssea because of how much I know you like Abyssea. My hope was that I could get you to see the similarities so maybe you'd begin to share my opinion on SoA.

You can solo reives on the right job with the right gear and the right approach. Just like how you can solo carabosse on the right job with the right gear and the right approach.

That said, I don't want it to be soloable. I want it to be like meebles where even though you might be able to solo(trio in the case of meebles) it, it gives you a bigger reward for bringing other people along. Because it's an MMO. Yes, some things you should be able to do solo, but many MANY other things should be geared towards getting players to play together.

[Luvbunny]

You can't really solo the Reive - unless you are talking about Wasp Nest one from the Peacekeeper Coalition - where you can come as beast and sneak/invisible and wait at the outer rim of the Reive. They decided you don't get much bayld from your pet damage or in very reduced rate, you must deal the damage yourself. Even that one don't get as many rewards compared to the Pioneer Reive.

Yes I like Abyssea because it lets me play test any of the 22 jobs, use atma combination to mix and match the playstyle I was going for, testing weapon skills, seeing what other tricks each jobs can do, uncovering potential on some jobs, finishing magian trials, etc. And actually get rewarded - even if it is minimal - but at least you are getting somewhere.

The contents they introduced after Abyssea are not too shabby either. Groundtome is a great improvent of Field of Valor - why they don't implement the same bonuses to both is baffling. Sure, Voidwatch rely too much on RNG, but at least they are accessible, only one person need to have the clear to pop the NM. Meeble is not bad, it has quite variety of objectives, and you need teamwork to solve some of them. All the Neo contents are good, it is a rehash of the older one, but at least they are a rehash of a good older contents. Campaign and Walk of Echoes however, still need works, and any suggestion to make those better is still being ignored.

SoA however - not really bringing anything better than the previous contents, which is a let down since this is an expansion not some add ons. It needs to be able to outshine Abyssea, Voidwatch and Meeble alltogether and give us great reasons to move forward. Campaign 2.0 with a very bad lag is not what you call a great idea. I would rather they give us Meeble 2.0, where everyone participating get the same amount of points and you are forced to have 3-6 people and work as a team. Lag would be non existent, and mages get the same amount of reward as melee. Even Dominion 2.0 would be a welcome addition, it will give people reasons to kill all the new enemies and go check out every areas instead of clustering in Ceizak and Yahze.

Who knows, a year from now - SoA could be a really good expansion, it is obvious it is not quite ready for launch and it needs at the very least 2-3 big updates. Give it a year, and maybe it will be able to trump all previous expansion combined.

[Yinnyth]

Ochain PLD can solo colonization reives by aeolian spamming in range of the roots. I've seen BST pets slowly chipping away at roots completely solo. One of the most baffling things I've seen was a RDM who was face tanking all the wasps while keeping bio up on the roots. My bard could solo reives with well-timed sleeps, requiem on the roots, and meleeing when I get a chance, though it would be extremely difficult and time-consuming. BLU could theoretically solo reives using their sleeps to hold the mobs while killing the roots, though I've never seen one try.

All in all, I'd say reives is easier to solo than Chloris.

[Demon6324236]

You can't really solo the Reive - unless you are talking about Wasp Nest one from the Peacekeeper Coalition - where you can come as beast and sneak/invisible and wait at the outer rim of the Reive. They decided you don't get much bayld from your pet damage or in very reduced rate, you must deal the damage yourself. Even that one don't get as many rewards compared to the Pioneer Reive.Actually PLD can solo those too if I'm not mistaken, probably a few different jobs too like BLM, RDM, RNG, COR, dunno if they would take hate by hittin the nest from a distance or not like that but if so, it would work.


All in all, I'd say reives is easier to solo than Chloris.I wouldn't go that far, my RDM can solo Chloris with only a stack of Holy Waters and like 5 minutes, but Reives... not so much.

[OmnysValefor]

We were never supposed to reliably get to floor 100, ever. We were supposed to constantly throw ourselves at random content for a year or more before finally quitting over sanity issues. Now SE's slowly scaling it down and making it more accessible as it's been around awhile.

I expect the exact same for the "Delve" content, to be nigh impossible upon release. Players will find a way around it and only those players praying at the temple of the azure undergarments will be able to acquire the loot. Eventually SE will start reducing it's difficulty after they create newer content in another year or two.

Why can't people just say it. Players will cheat to get there. It's okay to say it, you're not condoning it.

Personally, I welcome the day when SE takes a real good hard look at the tools available (both purely beneficial to your group, and harmful to any who would compete with you) and takes measures to either block these tools and get a real grasp on the difficulty of the content and how much of the community is slamming their head into the wall, or improve the pure game's features.

Players running over/through walls, fulltiming flee, seeing through walls, or over walls... It's like bringing a fully automatic weapon to a barfight. Of course you're gonna win, except for the rare time the bartender has a shotgun under the counter.

It is even sillier to know that certain tools only work because the server tracks and broadcasts the information. TP tracking addon works only because SE clearly, at one point, intended to display the alli's (or at least party's) tp in the client, but chose not to for whatever reason.

[OmnysValefor]

You can't really solo the Reive - unless you are talking about Wasp Nest one from the Peacekeeper Coalition - where you can come as beast and sneak/invisible and wait at the outer rim of the Reive. They decided you don't get much bayld from your pet damage or in very reduced rate, you must deal the damage yourself. Even that one don't get as many rewards compared to the Pioneer Reive.

Actually, Ochain PLD can solo colo rieves, and Aegis is feasible. It's not practical, but with shield mastery from 10-20 mobs giving you TP as fast as Meikyo Sushi, you can aeolian edge while keeping your shield protecting you from the mobs.

If you never let phalanx fall, Sentinel+Phalanx will make sure you get Phalanx back up, as will Rampart + Phalanx (if merited into Iron Will).

I'd love to say I've done it but I got extremely bored after 30 mins of just seeing if I could.

The goal is to get everything within your shieldblock range while you're as close to the middle point as possible so that your AE hits all crags or whatever.

[Yinnyth]

Why can't people just say it. Players will cheat to get there. It's okay to say it, you're not condoning it.

Personally, I welcome the day when SE takes a real good hard look at the tools available (both purely beneficial to your group, and harmful to any who would compete with you) and takes measures to either block these tools and get a real grasp on the difficulty of the content and how much of the community is slamming their head into the wall, or improve the pure game's features.

Players running over/through walls, fulltiming flee, seeing through walls, or over walls... It's like bringing a fully automatic weapon to a barfight. Of course you're gonna win, except for the rare time the bartender has a shotgun under the counter.

It is even sillier to know that certain tools only work because the server tracks and broadcasts the information. TP tracking addon works only because SE clearly, at one point, intended to display the alli's (or at least party's) tp in the client, but chose not to for whatever reason.

You're going to rile up one of the guys who honestly believes that just because he's never succeeded in Nyzul, everyone who has succeeded cheated to do so.

[Camate]

Greetings everyone!

Below is a follow-up post from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the new content that will be implemented in the upcoming version update.



Matsui here.

I plan on giving a detailed explanation of the version update that's around the corner, but before that I would like to focus a bit on how you can participate in Delve.

I'll repeat what I said in my previous post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/32736-Delve-Deeper-into-Seekers-of-Adoulin%21?p=422515&viewfull=1#post422515), but the content level of Delve is higher than that of Skirmish and Wildskeeper Reives.

With that said, in order to be the person who initiates Delve, you will need the key items received by defeating Naakuals.

If you are just participating, you will not need the key item; however, the balance of this content has been set on the notion that you have already acquired Skirmish or Wildskeeper Reive class equipment. (Previously, I accidentally said Bayld equipment, I apologize.)

There are three types of Delve items:

XXX Ygrette
XXX Yggrete shard
XXX Yggzi Beads

(The XXX part is different depending on the area.)

Ygrettes are the items you trade for the Yantric Planchette you need to enter the fracture.
Yggrete shards are the items needed to fight NMs above ground.
Yggzi Beads, when attached to the Yantric Planchette, will make it so up to 3 NMs will not spawn in the fracture.

These items can be obtained via Colonization Reives, Lair Reives, and from regular monsters in the following three areas, where there is an entrance to the Delve fracture.


Ceizak Battlegrounds
Morimar Basalt Fields
Foret de Hennetiel


During Delve you will be able to obtain powerful equipment, materials to enhance the equipment you have obtained, and specialized points known as "Mweya Plasm."

Below is what we have envisioned strategy wise for Delve.


To start off, you'll have to prepare for the boss monster fight by fighting NMs in the field or in fractures and acquire Mweya Plasm, equipment, and enhancement materials.
Once you've enhanced your equipment, join forces with other players and challenge the boss.


Of course, if you feel confident that you have the right firepower, you don't necessarily need to follow the above steps.

While there will be items based on certain drop rates, by continuously taking on Delve, you'll be able to save up Mweya Plasm and exchange it for the item that you want. With that said, you might want to just go ahead and fight the boss with 18 people, or you could just take 6 people to gather Mweya Plasm and enhancement materials. This will vary depending on your objectives.

You can exchange the Mweya Plasm you've obtained for items via the NPC "Forri-Porri" located in West Adoulin (I-10). However, just collecting these points alone will not make it possible to exchange for all the gear on tap. In order to exchange for equipment from bosses you will have to defeat the respective boss once.

Spoilers!



The above is just a simple introduction to Delve and we'll be announcing all the specific information on the day of the version update. Also, we are also looking into introducing Delve using a video or such.

In closing, I'd like to mention this again.
Delve is being released with balancing for top players; however, after we release newer end-game content we plan on making adjustments for those players catching up.

[Mnejing]

Camate forgot to list the areas.




Original:
これらのアイテムはメナスインスペクター地下空洞の入口がある

ケイザック古戦場
モリマー台地
エヌティエル水林

Slycer's (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=5691377&viewfull=1#post5691377) translation:

These items are related to Delve events in these areas:

Ceizak Battlegrounds
Morimar Basalt Fields
Foret de Hennetiel

[Camate]

Camate forgot to list the areas.

Sorry about that! The list of the areas got cut out, but I've edited my post. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Karbuncle]

i'm kinda worried it pretty much sounds like Skirmish II, which means accessing the content is going to be the hardest part of it all :(.

Thats the most unfun part, but outside of that, Base stuff, Augmentable... Skirmish, yup. Sounds good though. I mean, God just make it easier to access...

[detlef]

Camate can you verify if the same items that drop from NMs can be purchased with plasm? Last time with Legion, there was some definite confusion when the initial posts implied that you could purchase direct drops from NMs with legion points. Then it turned out that the items obtainable in exchange for legion points were entirely different.

[Asymptotic]

And I was mostly kidding when I said the Endgame of SoA would be Yggdrasil

[Sargent]

i'm kinda worried it pretty much sounds like Skirmish II, which means accessing the content is going to be the hardest part of it all :(.

Thats the most unfun part, but outside of that, Base stuff, Augmentable... Skirmish, yup. Sounds good though. I mean, God just make it easier to access...

Couldn't agree with you more, accessing Skirmish is ridiculous at the moment, SE need to increase the rate in which Skirmish pops can be obtained outside the AH.

I'm also worried about the rewards from Delve. If you look on the Seekers of Adoulin website, (http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/adoulin/index.html) you can see the example of equipment obtained. For those who haven't seen it;
Mikinaak Breastplate [Body]
DEF:80 STR+15 VIT+15 Acc+18 Atk+18 PDT-3%
Lv.99 WAR/PLD/DRK/BST/SAM/DRG

Highest example of augment is; Atk+10 Acc+6 STR+1

If SE are designing Delve for players who have managed to complete Wildskeeper Reives, Skirmish, Neo Salvage and Neo Nyzul, then why is the example of equipment obtained through Delve worse then that obtained through "easier" events? Fair enough if this is just a bad example, but it's given me a bad feeling about the event as a whole.

[Zumi]

Delve looks like Legion 2.0 which hardly anyone will get to do. I always wanted to do legion but never seen any shouts for it.

About that body, if there is no store tp or double/triple attack on it its not even going to be that worthwhile but who knows what other aguments you could get. Sounds almost as bad as Synergy aguments, keep doing the same event over and over to randomly get some augment.

Mikinaak Breastplate [Body]
DEF:80 STR+15 VIT+15 Acc+18 Atk+18 PDT-3%
Lv.99 WAR/PLD/DRK/BST/SAM/DRG

[Luvbunny]

i'm kinda worried it pretty much sounds like Skirmish II, which means accessing the content is going to be the hardest part of it all :(. Thats the most unfun part, but outside of that, Base stuff, Augmentable... Skirmish, yup. Sounds good though. I mean, God just make it easier to access...

Because making accessible content for the general population is very hard for them lol. Plus give it a year or so - and they probably let everyone go at it, all the new contents are designed as "barrier" to give you just enough incentive but making sure that progress is severely limited so that only 5% of the population can try it and beta test it for them - but they present it so that you will feel "privileged" for being able to do so. If enough people complaints, then they will just come back and tell you that they never intend for everyone to be able to try these, only the hardcore of the elitist will get to do it...

[Yinnyth]

The power-grind keeps us interested. The next step up might be too hard for you currently, but in time, it'll be just right. You're getting hung up on the fact that hardcore content just recently released isn't casual yet. It will be someday. Just not today.

[Demon6324236]

The power-grind keeps us interested. The next step up might be too hard for you currently, but in time, it'll be just right. You're getting hung up on the fact that hardcore content just recently released isn't casual yet. It will be someday. Just not today.Its not Abyssea, they will never like it.

[Calintzpso]

The power-grind keeps us interested. The next step up might be too hard for you currently, but in time, it'll be just right. You're getting hung up on the fact that hardcore content just recently released isn't casual yet. It will be someday. Just not today.

Not a problem of it being casual now or hardcore. Its about getting in to even try and find where you stand.

SE keeps doing the 50+ Fat people VS the Shih Tzu sized Dog Door mentality and Its really starting to piss us off.

Chance/Lottery/Grind isn't something thats Skillfully "Hardcore" or "Casual" rated, Its something incredibly stupid.

One could argue balance. Well thats a vision of "experience". Todays games of lock out rarity are dead, SE doesn't know that. Instead Skirmish and Nakauul should have been more easily accessible but the drop rates/items more difficult to obtain, so players could experience gameplay better to skillfully enhance their play style, and then SE could go back and re-balance the values to make the items/currency more abundant to participants, resulting in those who gained skill in the event to run their hopefully now well oiled machine of a group/alliance to maximize new reward tiers of balance.

Instead SE keeps the Doggy Door metaphorical crap in place.

I tend to run off on metaphors but whatever, enjoy this one...

Think of it like driving a car, you get your permit, you still have to drive a lot before you take the test, you need hands on experience. The way SE currently runs this is like this, heres the permit, I'd like to take you driving sometime but I'm to busy/its not a fullmoon/Go away, Law and Order's on right now/Etc. bullcrap, but oh, your driving test is in 1 week, good luck "Mr. No experience". aka Doomed to fail, outside some sort of miracle.

[Yinnyth]

Not a problem of it being casual now or hardcore. Its about getting in to even try and find where you stand.

Oh, so you want it to be more like NNI where everyone gets a chance to try every RL day, but if you're not up to snuff, then you'll never hit floor 100.

[Calintzpso]

Oh, so you want it to be more like NNI where everyone gets a chance to try every RL day, but if you're not up to snuff, then you'll never hit floor 100.

Short answer, Yes.

A game that promotes Skillful play and cooperation with others is a game that is truly challenging and rewarding.

Not a game of Mindless Luck and Grind. And I'm not talking about luck w/ rewards.

[Luvbunny]

Yes agree, everyone who is playing this game, regardless skill levels or gears should be able to try it without any restriction or gathering stupid items just to progress. Similar how the Neo events and Meeble, and pretty much some Abyssea events. We all get a chance to try and get better and practice, and bettering our selves and our gears. Right now you can't even try unless you are rich, extremely lucky, or a combination of both. I rather deal with the stupid limited tags than these new SoA events that require you "farm" or just buy those parts.

And lets not kid ourselves and keep believing these lies, those SoA are designed to halt progress, until they feel that sufficient payments have been made and 6-12 months have passed, then they will come back and adjust it. So you can either take it as it is, or take a long break again, or just pay to play when you deemed the content is worth paying.

[Yinnyth]

Short answer, Yes.

A game that promotes Skillful play and cooperation with others is a game that is truly challenging and rewarding.

Not a game of Mindless Luck and Grind. And I'm not talking about luck w/ rewards.

What's your long answer then, because it really sounds like what you want then is mission final battles. Something you only need to do once as long as you win, then you never have to do it again. While I would probably enjoy the rush at first, that rush would wear off quickly when I realize my character no longer has any room to grow no matter how much grinding I'm willing to do.

[Luvbunny]

Not sure about growth on your character(s). The game is basically now all about doing more BCNMs for gears. And grinding more for gears, especially when you factor those random numbers that will come with the augmenting system they are proposing. Which translate to more grinding for the said events to get better augments so you can get incremental boost in your damage to enable you to do more of these so called events for more gears. On and on it goes, grind for gears to infinity and beyond.

They also make sure that you can't do these events so easily. It's no longer about 24 hours real life limitation, or 3 days limitation - all these new contents are atrocious beyond belief - they are designed to halt your progress. If they want us to be better players, then let us try the new contents ASAP, over and over, so we can better ourselves and come up with a strategy to beat it, and WIN, over and over. People get better by practice, they don't get better by whacking the roots over and over - or doing run around quests. Stop putting BS hoops that everyone has to jump through just to try it.

[Demon6324236]

I like how Delve sounds except the requirements to enter, thats bad, also not happy about needing larger parties, while it is nice to have some events like that, I personally hate them, much rather small groups for events where I can be more familiar with the people I am going with and we can work well together.

[FrankReynolds]

Here's a basic analogy for what's going on:

Instead of giving that genius in the front of the class an A+ and letting him skip a grade occasionally, SE is making everyone do the work that is challenging to him and then forcing them to stay back a grade to make it up next year when they inevitably fail.

[Luvbunny]

I like how Delve sounds except the requirements to enter, thats bad, also not happy about needing larger parties, while it is nice to have some events like that, I personally hate them, much rather small groups for events where I can be more familiar with the people I am going with and we can work well together.

Yup sounds good on paper, poorly executed - nothing new here. What is baffling - they managed to did good content after Abyssea, adopted the slow and steady progression idea, your own reward system (and the atrocious RNG rewards), good variety of tasks on Meeble. Yet they fail to innovate when it comes to SoA?? We should all be able to try new contents ASAP without having to "work" to collect the various scraps. Players should only be getting better for trying the battle over and over and finding out which strategy works best to annihilate enemies and consume contents (and rewards). We should not be dealing with various stale tactics to hinder our progress and prevent us from actually trying the battle contents....

[Yinnyth]

What should the grind be then? They tried completely accessible battles with low drop rates for the grind (voidwatch) and people complained that drop rates are too low. They tried completely accessible dungeon crawls which were extraordinarily difficult but had very high drop rates (NNI), and people complained that it was too "luck based" because with their average of 10 floor-ups per run, they had a 0% chance of reaching floor 100. They tried completely accessible boss rushes which were extraordinarily difficult (legion) and people complained that it's too much of a gear check.

It sounds to me like people don't want to grind entry items for events because that takes time. They don't want to grind difficult events because practice and learning from mistakes takes time. They don't want to grind really easy kills with really low drop rates because that takes time. They don't want an event which requires them to get better equipment to do because that takes time.

If no grind is an acceptable grind, then you don't actually want to play the game, you just want to win it and be done with it.

[Calintzpso]

It's known as the perfect imbalance in the game development field, something SE stretches and constantly lets run wild unchecked, and they let it get pulled that way by elitist pricks. If you don't believe this, look at the job to job comparison among the "elitists". Let me link you to a good webisode I watch that will make some hidden faults more apparent. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

SE falls towards the haphazard comment near the start of that video. If you need a prime example. RDM.

Voidwatch is mostly flopping due to core job mechanical issues and episodic chapter restrictions, which is SE's constant way of bottle necking. If people could freely traverse and start any tier of Voidwatch battle with a group of members of their choice, the system would be better off. Now don't get me wrong, We can do this, sorta...only if you have someone with the right level abyssite to summon the battle, oh and warps to gather to the spot in a timely visit. I still lack all of Jeuno wins due to taking a break when Voidwatch came out, Coming back no one wants to do those piss poor fights. Linkshells of yesteryear are now 6-10 active people at most. I haven't seen a shout for the fights I need in over 6 weeks, and the last group I tried to make was a group of 7-8 people who decided they had to go afk after 30 mins of gathering to go have comas/push grandma down the stairs/or their pool caught fire. So when I do Jeuno, I have to walk some out of to some out of way places vs others warping, and I only can hold 4 voidstones on me, so when a group does x6 they aren't happy when I have to quick restock which I wish was easier.

For the Neo things, that falls under a personal problem for the people you run the event with. The system is good in place, it could be a bit more forgiving with those lamp floors and I'm sure I'm not the only one who agrees. But the only issue with NNI that I can see is the individuals involved who run it like its a all or nothing system. In working out in RL we would call that a Gut Check. Gut checks are great, but you can't depend on them as a sure system. I recall NNI allows you to set your goal without overshooting the level aimed for now. I also recall you are given a currency like Key Item for hitting the goal/killing a boss # times, of which can be turned in for armor at a NPC. Personal Pacing is the only issue people really have. Floor 100 is great and all since everyone gets a Key Item for a armor of their choice plus the boss drops an extra. But you could settle for floor 80 instead and just work at it longer while still getting progress. To gun for floor 100 it becomes a personal gamble. How much you're willing to gamble on the system determines your progress in general. People make a poor goal choices in NNI and when they aren't rewarded, they blame the system. As is, NNI is the most balanced of the 3 you mentioned. To succeed in NNI you need to work cooperatively with the abilities of your group and set your goals based on that. If you can't do that, you aren't a team player. Patience and cooperation will help skill your group, so that someday either in a long time, or short time, you can gun for a higher goal or be able to muster the ability to do a gut check on a more often schedule.

Legion falls under a very basic system, and I don't feel I have the right to comment to much on it as I haven't done it AT ALL since it's release. From what I can observe, Its a boss rush of the 90s video games meets dynamis treasure pools. Appears to me it just needs a minimum 3 tanks and 3 good healers to hold the initial spawns, and since the next wave doesn't spawn until the first wave is killed. This is a pace based event. If your group can't keep a good pace, they the group needs to work on that to further themselves. But it doesn't keep the group from at least trying which was the entire basis of my comments.

[Luvbunny]

It's the goldilock dilemma, need to be exactly just right which is never going to happen for FFXI. At the very least most of the previous endgame events let you go and try it without forcing you to gather various parts that are super rare drops (and you need more than one) just to have a chance to try it. Sure none are the PERFECT one but it gives you variety - yes everything in the game is purely luck based. Even Abyssea is somewhat luck based - you can trigger the yellow but the drop is still random out of 4 possible job seals.

Now we are just being "blocked" at every possible turn by the developers. And every single steps you take on SoA contents are designed to slow down your progress and forced you to grind - and these are not fun grind mind you. Keep your optimistic attitude but don't be blinded by faith alone that it will get better because you know it will not get better soon. We are talking a year or even two years for a hint of improvement. They are severely understaffed - and their tried and true strategy is to make sure that everyone is halted on progression and it will take you thousands of needed items just to get your random augments so you can do it over and over and over and over....

[Yinnyth]

and their tried and true strategy is to make sure that everyone is halted on progression and it will take you thousands of needed items just to get your random augments so you can do it over and over and over and over....

Grind, yes, you now understand the concept of grind. A necessary concept in any game. Even solitaire has grind. You still have not answered where the grind should come from, though you obviously believe the grind should not be getting access to the final fight, it should be something else. So what should the grind be?

Or should the grind not exist at all?

[Caketime]

Solitaire has grind? That's...lol

[Luvbunny]

Grind, yes, you now understand the concept of grind. A necessary concept in any game. Even solitaire has grind. You still have not answered where the grind should come from, though you obviously believe the grind should not be getting access to the final fight, it should be something else. So what should the grind be? Or should the grind not exist at all?

Stop thinking you are so smart and way above everyone else... I understand grind just fine, FFXI is all about grind and not much else. Everything about this game is grind. And there are many types of grind though nothing come close as atrocious as SoA new type of grinds that is blatantly designed to let you not progressing at all but in a very slow baby steps.

Magian Trials weapon is a grind. Every single one of them. But they don't make you spend hours to collect various parts, battling various NMs before you even get your base weapon. "Battling the NMs" and getting better at it is THE GRIND. In most cases, just battling the same normal mobs x 300-600 is the grind. Or doing dynamis for 6 months is the grind - but you don't need to jump so many hoops every time you want to do dynamis. Myhthic is probably the closest to this "new" type of grind and the fact you need your base weapons dropped from normal fodder mobs in dynamis.

None of the NEO events ask you to jump through so many hoops every single time you want to do it. You may be asked to do some missions or some quests ONCE to get key items - or achieve certain ranks. You don't need to gather a bunch of things for Voidwatch, just one person who can pop the NMs. Meeble does not ask you to run around vanadiel just to try it, you can either kill the mini boss again for key items or buy them - to repeat the final boss.

It is plain as day how the grind for SoA is. No one is so dumb and thick to not being able to see it through. Basically various endgames events where you try to augment your base weapons or armors over and over, till kingdom come or new events are introduced. I would rather just have ONE key items and tags that I can use to access these. Put it on 24 hours - 72 hours cool down if they need their stupid "gated wall" but don't force us to gather different parts of simulacrum just to be able to enter. Make it that we can purchase these parts at reasonable amount of bayld or gills similar to the concept of cels for void watch. Then let us actually fight these new NMs over and over and grind it and getting better at it. And come up with new strategies that actually trump and decimate their game design.

[hiko]

What should the grind be then? They tried completely accessible battles with low drop rates for the grind (voidwatch) and people complained that drop rates are too low. They tried completely accessible dungeon crawls which were extraordinarily difficult but had very high drop rates (NNI), and people complained that it was too "luck based" because with their average of 10 floor-ups per run, they had a 0% chance of reaching floor 100. They tried completely accessible boss rushes which were extraordinarily difficult (legion) and people complained that it's too much of a gear check.

It sounds to me like people don't want to grind entry items for events because that takes time. They don't want to grind difficult events because practice and learning from mistakes takes time. They don't want to grind really easy kills with really low drop rates because that takes time. They don't want an event which requires them to get better equipment to do because that takes time.

If no grind is an acceptable grind, then you don't actually want to play the game, you just want to win it and be done with it.

agree about needing some grind, what I don't like is the item needed to enter being <1% drop (if it's same as skirmish parts)i'd rather it being like naak pop after next update (high bayld purchase, price lower with your coallition ranks), coaltion reward ( once each X impr used, the highest you're ranked, the less you need)

and the augment system is not as random as the naysayer say, it's step augment
augment it=> get rank 1 augment
augment it again to get rank2
...

[Vinedrai]

it is sad to see that certain people here thinks that the "old" FFXI wasn't worse if not as bad in terms of blockage like rare drop requirements or stupid repop timers while competing with several other linkshells and/or solo/duo/whatever farmers for participation in end game events. SE has been rapidly making the game much more casual friendly since the first abyssea came out but some people keep freaking out about the accessibility of the newer content... some people just whine for the sake of whining.

how about doing much more accessible events like meebles, NNI, dynamis etc. while also getting bayld stuff and saving more for later, rather than freaking out about the newest events that you won't be able to get to do with a competable group to win and get shinies unless you are a hardcore player anyway? if you have no time to grind pop items or whatever to access and the manpower to win those events, then you should put your priorities right and focus on much more accessible events which still has lots of strong loot. this game is so rich in content that it has something for every type of players. people just need to "see" and not just "look".

[Yinnyth]

Stop thinking you are so smart and way above everyone else... I understand grind just fine, FFXI is all about grind and not much else. Everything about this game is grind. And there are many types of grind though nothing come close as atrocious as SoA new type of grinds that is blatantly designed to let you not progressing at all but in a very slow baby steps.

If I thought I were so much smarter and way above everyone else, I wouldn't deign to speak here. I am no smarter, nor any better than anyone else on these forums. I apologize if my forum "voice" makes it sound like I'm constantly condescending. I assure you that's not my intention.

My intention is to get a straight answer instead of evading a question which is hard to answer because there is no universally accepted answer. Grind is necessary for a game. There needs to be a time sink somewhere in there. Which time sink is acceptable?


Meeble does not ask you to run around vanadiel just to try it, you can either kill the mini boss again for key items or buy them - to repeat the final boss.

Meebles? It's the same damned thing as skirmish. You don't grind Umaghrk 15 times in one day unless you're willing to spend 15 million gil per person. No, you burn 25 days worth of pheromones to do 25 runs to get access to Umaghrk and kill him once then you start over. Those 25 runs before aren't practice for Umaghrk anymore than smacking roots and bees around is practice for skirmish. It's grind designed to delay you from getting all of Umaghrk's drops too soon. It's designed to prolong you playing the game so you don't just go immediately from your current situation to your goal (like just looking at all the cards and organizing them in 4 neat stacks, completely circumventing the rules of solitaire).

So in meebles, you can spend millions of gil or farm 25 wins, or some combination of both. In skirmish, you can spend millions of gil, farm pyres, farm HELM, complete reives, complete coalition assignments, or some combination of those. Why is meebles grind better again?

[Karbuncle]

Meebles? It's the same damned thing as skirmish.

Not... entirely true. Though i don't know the argument at hold here, and i see your point. But my biggest complaint about Skirmish is not its difficulty or anything, its that its stupidly hard to even enter for most all players. If you purchase all 3 pieces, You're going to spend about 8-12mil if you buy all Tier I items, which divided by 6 is still a bout 1.3~2mil a piece, while not a whole lot, is the single most expensive entrance fee for any event in FFXI history.

Coupled with the fact you'd have to find the item on the AH, cause the chances of you finding one otherwise is probably about the same odds of you getting a Coruscanti or any other pulse weapon. The event is just ludicrous to enter, the main way of accessing an event shouldn't be shopping the AH with 12 mil in your pocket ready to spend.

If they were going to make it super expensive, they could have at least sold each piece from an NPC For ~3mil to help burn some gil out of the market too, stave off the minor inflation from Blinkers. (While not as bad as the 07(?) Inflation.. *chills*)

[Yinnyth]

I can see the argument of it perhaps being too hard to enter right now, and I would imagine that's partly by design because they don't want the game to be flooded with these ridiculous new weapons so quickly. If it's just a matter of making the pieces needed for entry less rare, that's an argument I could see eye-to-eye with, as long as it's within moderation.

Perhaps that is the light I should view these arguments in instead of seeing them as "we have to grind things which are not the final event itself in order to get access to the final event when we should just be grinding the final event and getting better at it." Because that point of view I completely disagree with.

[Demon6324236]

If it's just a matter of making the pieces needed for entry less rare, that's an argument I could see eye-to-eye with, as long as it's within moderation.Thats one thing I find funny about the entire thing with people complaining about Skirmish. I have yet to do it myself but people complaining they need to be cheaper need to realize its a matter of SE making it more common, SE does not effect AH prices, players do.


Perhaps that is the light I should view these arguments in instead of seeing them as "we have to grind things which are not the final event itself in order to get access to the final event when we should just be grinding the final event and getting better at it." Because that point of view I completely disagree with.Well in all honesty its quite impossible to use another event to practice for the one your doing in most cases. For instance, I can fight Samursk all day in Meebles but it will never be the same as fighting Lord Monkey Face, because they are completely different mobs and need different strats to win against them. Basically, the practice isn't practice, its another mob entirely. The same goes for this and roots probably, roots you have to kill an lifeless object which can not hurt you while keeping off smaller pest enemies which can fight back. Delve and Skirmish from what I understand are more just a series of mobs or NMs to fight which will be strong and have a time limit.

[Luvbunny]

I have to say, this team never learn the word or the concept of making things SIMPLE..... if you look at the wall of texts and the amount of works and run around you have to do for Delve... enough to make your head explode. Someone over there needs to learn how to create something simple, easy to understand, and addictive. SIMPLICITY is apparently very hard concept to grasp there, very odd indeed considering they are japanese. And the japanese have designed some truly wonderful products that are so deceptively simple yet very elegant and beautiful. Not this team apparently.

[Yinnyth]

If we wanted the game to be simple, we wouldn't play an RPG. We'd play angry birds or tetris or stick and hoop. We chose FFXI because there's a certain level of complexity we want from the game we play.

[Luvbunny]

Yeah let's see how popular those complex system with the majority, remember evolith system? Even synergy needs to be simplified. Life is already complex as it is, you don't need more complex game for the sake of "putting as many gated walls" as possible so that no one can progress through the contents. Magian Trial is simple enough, but just as effective to put "gated walls" without being overtly complex. Abyssea system is quite simple, so is Voidwatch, Legion, Meeble, etc...

[Yinnyth]

You seem to think simplifying the game makes it better, but that is not always the case. I will admit complexity doesn't make something good on its own, but simplicity has the same shortcoming. It is very possible to make a complex system which is still fun.

Abyssea is not simple. There are stones you need to pick up from town. There are 9 different zones with very different rewards. Atmas and abyssites. Chests. NM progression. NM weaknesses. Repop behavior. Lights. Tic Tac Toe is simple. A person could explain how to never lose at Tic Tac Toe on a single sheet of paper. How many sheets of paper would it take for you to explain to someone who just got abyssea access how they get a level 90 empyrean?

Abyssea is complex, but it's good complexity. Without complexity in the game, there is no room for strategies.

[Raksha]

Delve seems relatively straightforward. It seems confusing because there are many parts to it, and the descriptions arent very clear. (forgive me camate & co (>_<).