Runic, (Can I have it?) [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

ManaKing

03-22-2011, 08:10 AM

There was some loose talk about Celes' ability from FFVI in a thread about quick magic. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2673-Red-Mage-Quick-Magic/page2)

I think the idea is neat and I figured I would give it some attention. I would personally want it as a job ability on a lower cooldown.

History:
Celes original job ability Runic, enabled Celes to nullify the next magic spell cast and absorb the MP used to cast it. The ability canceled any magic, offensive or defensive, and from any source, ally or enemy. It required her to wield a sword that was capable of using Runic. It also required that she not do any other actions. There were some spells that Celes couldn't Runic such as Meteor or Meltdown, because they hit every character in battle.

I like most of the idea Duelle already came up with for it and I'm happy to give credit to him/her.

Runic - Job Ability - 3 minute cooldown
Instant - RDM stops all actions. The next offensive spell used by the enemy against anyone in your party is redirected towards the RDM. All status effects are nullified and all damage spells hit for 1/2 of the total value of the spell. The RDM gains 1/2 of the MP used to cast the spell.

Runic would be a buff that could be canceled so that RDM could resume actions.

Pro's - You gain MP for doing it successfully. You can shield your team from harmful effects that would potentially wipe your party. You can shield pets and shadow users from AOEs that disrupt their ability to function.

Con's - You can't do anything while in Runic. You take damage from damage spells. In the case of AOEs, you will be taking 1/2 of the total damage your entire party would have taken.
Big AOE = You Died.

Much like everything in FFXI, timing and discretion are key. Do you use Runic for the first spell cast or wait for a big one? What is more important, nullifying status effects or damage? Can you even take the full brunt of the next big AOE or is it going to kill you?

I wouldn't be against other classes getting it instead. A magic tank would be a nifty thing to have. I only put it in RDM because we already get magic defense bonus, phallanx, shell, stone skin, and bar spells that could be utilized to soften the blow against us.

Ophannus

03-22-2011, 10:42 AM

I'd sooner see this as a PLD ability than RDM to be honest.

Duelle

03-22-2011, 01:38 PM

I'd sooner see this as a PLD ability than RDM to be honest.Seeing that Red Mage is more of a magic swordsman than Paladin, I beg to differ.

Supersun

03-22-2011, 04:47 PM

Would it be nice to get, sure.

Does it fill any purpose we are currently lacking in? Not really.

You have to keep in mind that the devs have a limited amount of time and effort they have to split between everything so while ultimately it would be nice if we were to receive every spell and ability on the wishlist topic that just isn't feasible. Given that they have limited time and resources, changes that don't really serve a purpose besides being a situational new toy are better off yielding to changes that significantly add to the job. This is partly why Shield Mastery pisses me off. Sure, getting something is better then getting nothing (unless that something subtracts :P), but compared to all the potential changes they could of made that would meaningfully change the job for the better it just felt more like a waste of time (at least in it's current form).

So yeah, would it be nice to get Runic? Sure. Would it be nice to get Double Cast? Absolutely.

But compared to the thousands of other changes that they could make to the job that have significant meaning especially when some of those changes could very well fix current problems with the job I can't say that adding Runic would be a very efficient use of their time.

Septimus

03-22-2011, 06:55 PM

Red Mages have been asking for Runic for as long as I have been playing this game. (NA release.) For as much as I would love to get it, I just never see it happening.

I remember when the ToAU expansion came out, one of the terms added to the Auto Translate dictionary was "Runic Seal". All of the Red Mages got so happy when they heard this, only for their hopes to be dashed when they found out about Assault.

Vraelia

03-22-2011, 09:37 PM

I'd personally would love it if RDMs got this Ability. It would make us more important, and more necessary. And, more valuable.

Seriha

03-23-2011, 02:16 AM

Put me in the "It'd be nice to have, but other things have priorities." camp. Can't really see how it'd make us more important or needed unless you start stacking multiple RDMs on NMs with frequent -agas. The concept of doing anything with more than six people is pretty much blasphemy these days, though.

ManaKing

03-25-2011, 12:41 PM

I can't disagree with anyone saying that this isn't as important as X, but I still want it. If they aren't going to give us anything that we deem important, we might as well get something nice.

Limar

06-09-2011, 07:03 AM

Red Mages have been asking for Runic for as long as I have been playing this game. (NA release.) For as much as I would love to get it, I just never see it happening.

But now we have this board we can hope Square actually looks at sometimes.

Merton9999

06-09-2011, 10:36 AM

I had written up one here playing around a bit ago:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=91016&highlight=runic#post91016

I'll summarize that one a bit below since this is the thread for it. The way you have it sounds OK, but I'd see that version for PLD more than RDM. In fact, I hesitate to talk about this at all since my fear is no matter how it's implemented it would probably go in the pile with Occult Acumen, Fencer, Enlight, Endark, enfeebling weapon strikes, and spell + WS = SC, that all made sense for RDM for years and were handed to other jobs. Anyway, I'd like this for RDM:

Runic
1 minute cooldown
1. Absorbs the next elemental magic spell cast by the RDM, a party member or the mob to which the RDM is engaged.
2. The absorbed spell element must match the RDM's current enspell element
3. Damage from the spell is stored for delivery as added enspell damage.
4. The damage amount is proportional to damage of the spell, and the attack power of the main hand weapon.
5. The goal with the added enspell damage is to use an equation that would potentially double the original nuke power, if you have enough haste, accuracy, attack power and dedicated melee time to pull off the ideal
6. An additional ability, "Runic Seal" would allow the remaining absorbed power to be channeled into your next WS. The purpose here is to allow you to unleash the remaining power if you've decided that it's time to stop and cure/buff/enfeeble so you don't lose the enspell damage for the missed swings, and allows the extra damage to gain hate if you want. If unleashed in this way, the additional damage to the WS should be about half what the perfect enspell DOT would have been.

Benefits:
1. Promotes melee a bit
2. Gives enspells another dynamic
3. Introduces a new teamwork concept - by absorbing another player's nuke, you can have a more potent Runic charge via BLM, SCH, and SMN higher tier spells.
4. Can be used defensively, but the requirement to match the current enspell limits what you can absorb so we don't have a full additional stun here. The matching enspell requirement also implies you won't be using Runic both offensively and defensively simultaneously because chances are you won't be meleeing with an enspell matching an element the mob is fond of casting. For mobs that don't have that strict absorption/ resistance to their favorite spells, you get that extra concept of being able to turn a mob's spell back on it. With that in mind, I'll take Endark at 99 so we can turn back Meteor.
5. Can take the hate that would be generated by your nuke or another player's and cancel it by channeling it into the enspell damage
6. I like the concept of the spell coming from anyone because you have to pay attention and time it right.

ManaKing

06-10-2011, 04:43 AM

Idk about matching the current enspell. It would be extra steps that might be unnecessary. It seems like more of an excuse to get enlight and endark, than to be functional to the RDM.

But i'm very much in favor of the teamwork aspects of it.

Being a nuke delivery system for higher tier casters would be an aspect of RDM I would enjoy and I think everyone else would enjoy as well. I've put some of that in RDM melee... but that thread is super long so ill dig it out and post what i put there so we can compare notes.

ManaKing

06-10-2011, 04:47 AM

Write up on Runic:
Job Ability _ Runic _ Recast timer between 2 - 5 minutes.

The next damaging, offensive spell cast in 30 yalms of the RDM is absorbed by their weapon. The next melee attack will apply the spell as an additional affect. The damage is at full potency from the caster + any additional magic attack bonus that the RDM has.

This would only work on magic schools that the RDM has natively. No Blue Magic. No monster abilities. No Ninjitsu. No Summoning magic, unless it is a spell that is Elemental Magic, such as Fire IV from Ifrit. The spells source can either be a member of your alliance (pets included) or an enemy that your alliance is engaging.

The JA doesn't go on cooldown until the spell is dissipated by using it or canceling the buff. That way you can't use Runic back to back.

The idea is a combination of Chrono Trigger mechanics and Celes' Runic from FF6. I see Runic as a different application of Convert. Taking one thing and channeling it into another.

It would make RDM into a spell catalyst for higher tier nukers. We would be able to take another casters Nukes and deliver them to the Mob without the casters gaining hate. Instead we would get the hate. We would also get more use out of magic attack bonus gear, because it would help us further enhance the damage of the spells.

We would also be very effective again caster type mobs, so we would have a niche. I personally love the idea of a RDM being the last thing another mage wants to take on 1 V 1, because we are Duelists and Warlocks. We cheat, we bend the rules, and we aren't afraid to get our hands dirty to win. We will even take your own magic, and turn it against you.

I think other mages would love a hate free delivery system for their Higher Tier magic. I designed the idea around more teamwork for RDM and giving it a desirable position in a party.

Merton9999

06-10-2011, 06:24 AM

I like this version of yours in terms of how the damage is applied. It's simpler and achieves the same purposes. My intent with matching the enspell was twofold:

1. Allows players to know what spells of theirs can be absorbed. Not only does this clue them in against unintentional absorption (maybe they were trying to mb or sc), but it also minimizes an accidental absorption. So say the BLM starts casting Burst II, you pop Runic, then the SCH starts casting Water V. The intent would be to absorb the Burst II but you'd get the Water V if there was no way to "direct" it. Enspell is a way to do this.

2. I love your concept of turning the mob's spells against them, but without a limit on what spell you could absorb you essentially have a reflect for all of the mob's elemental spells. Enspell limits you to one element at a time. Although, with your 2-5 minute recast I doubt the all-element reflect possibility would be overpowered. But again with the enspell, if others are paying attention they can see what you intend on absorbing, and maybe skip the Stun on that element. Then you'd be free to give a shorter cooldown.

I'll admit I'd look for any way to have Enlight and Endark, but the enspell requirement was intended to be a lot more.

Duelle

06-10-2011, 02:50 PM

The next damaging, offensive spell cast in 30 yalms of the RDM is absorbed by their weapon. The next melee attack will apply the spell as an additional affect. The damage is at full potency from the caster + any additional magic attack bonus that the RDM has.I agree with the idea, though I would split it into two.

Runic Absorb (or Draw) for absorbing the spell and Runic Release (or Strike) for releasing the damaging spell. Absorbing the spell through Runic Absorb would give you the status buff Containment, which lasts 10 seconds and then wears off (or if you want to be really mean, damages the Red Mage after the 10 second period is up). Runic Release would ensure the hit is guaranteed, because making it rely on the next melee swing won't help much if you're stacking+MAB gear since then you're not wearing standard +Acc stuff.

I personally love the idea of a RDM being the last thing another mage wants to take on 1 V 1, because we are Duelists and Warlocks. We cheat, we bend the rules, and we aren't afraid to get our hands dirty to win. We will even take your own magic, and turn it against you.Oh, so I'm not the only one who thinks a RDM would be the type of guy to bend every rule that separates melee and mage if it came down to it. A path that favors improvisation more often than not, so to speak.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 02:44 AM

I will stress that my version of Runic is only for nukes, spells that cause damage. If it wouldn't give TP with occult Accumen, it won't be affected by runic. Runic would be a Job Ability, so it would be instant cast. I don't think that timing Runic effectively should be a problem, just a skill for RDMs to work on. Good RDMs will be able to pick the spells that they want to interact with. Bad ones will still be bad.

To me, timing your Runic activation and making sure your party knows how play with a RDM is important and adds to good game play. If you have an idiot in the group that keeps casting nukes after you have done a call macro that asks for ONLY BLM to cast, then deal with the unskilled person so we can have some legit team work again. If the mob is messing up your casts, then that is part of the game. Get someone with a stun, maybe 2.

Duelle, as usual, brings up a good point. For simplicity's sake, I would say that your next attack can't miss, but what about a compromise? What if the 2nd ability wasn't called Runic Release and was called Soliloquy? The kit would be something of a middle ground for where I think we both stand on that idea.

The full idea being that you can use Runic to pre cast a nuke and you use Soliloquy to deliver it and open conditions for Magic Bursting.

You get your required spell for MB, I get the ability to choose where that spell comes from. We both get use out of our MBB and look pimp doing it.

You can still use Runic defensively to block spells and you can still use Runic during battles(skill and teamwork required).

Soliloquy thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8859-Soliloquy-The-final-RDM-job-ability.)

Oh, so I'm not the only one who thinks a RDM would be the type of guy to bend every rule that separates melee and mage if it came down to it. A path that favors improvisation more often than not, so to speak.

Stacking 6+ enfeebles on the same mob was never playing fair. I've never thought of trying to get a fair fight out of a mob. For most of the length of this game, mobs that gave you decent XP, would beat you mercilessly. It's only recently that has changed. I personally want mobs to require team work again. I was hoping we would get some more challenge soon, AND that RDM would be ready for it.

Raksha

06-11-2011, 04:45 AM

This would definitely be a PLD type ability if it were implemented. Realistically though it'd be a buff sorta like blink/stoneskin that absorbs the next magic damage that hits you.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-11-2011, 05:24 AM

This would definitely be a PLD type ability if it were implemented. Realistically though it'd be a buff sorta like blink/stoneskin that absorbs the next magic damage that hits you.

The actual job that uses Runic was a Rune Knight, which was very similar to RDM far more so than PLD.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 05:42 AM

I'm betting they only read OP. Yeah the OP is PLD-esque, but the more recent ones are clearly more RDM. PLD doesn't have anything to do with elemental magic.

If you want PLD to get a new ability, then give them an AOE spell or JA that works like stone skin, but for magic damage only.

Merton9999

06-11-2011, 05:43 AM

I like Duelle's dual ability concept, especially the part where the RDM takes damage if not released quick enough!

I'm a fan of the current simplified game play, and have no interest in requiring teamwork or introducing more challenge soon. That got old in 2006. If you do want to require all this coordination though, you'd need to offer a LOT more than an MAB bonus for a Runic absorbed spell. Otherwise it would quickly join Skillchains, Magic Bursts and SATA in the "not worth it" graveyard. Coordinating stuns, JA announcement macros, a casting moratorium for everyone but your Runic partner, the chance to absorb a mob's out-of-the-blue 90% FC spell that would cure it - they may all seem like good gameplay to some, but my prediction is the RDM who wanted to melee with a Runic that carried all that baggage for a bit of MAB would quickly be more shunned than the one that just wanted to melee.

Without a way to direct the potential absorbed spell (matching the current enspell is just one simple way to do this), Runic is going to need to offer a lot more utility to justify its coordination costs.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 07:04 AM

I'm a fan of the current simplified game play, and have no interest in requiring teamwork or introducing more challenge soon. That got old in 2006.

I'm sorry to hear it. I enjoy hunting loot. The more elusive and rare the better so long as the monster in front of it is actually a challenge. Fighting hard stuff is how I have fun.

I like playing with my friends, who are all competent at the game. They would have no problem, pull any of this off. Watching things blow up is more satisfying when it's in a group and we actually had to try.

I do find Aby to be dreadfully boring, almost all of the time. But you are entitled to your opinion. If you like the simplified version, can you suggest a compromise that might be somewhere in the middle?

Without a way to direct the potential absorbed spell (matching the current enspell is just one simple way to do this), Runic is going to need to offer a lot more utility to justify its coordination costs.

I'm suggesting the ability to:

nullify enemy Nukes
take hate for mages
open up magic bursting without SCs
amplify nuke damage

and you dont want it?

Raksha

06-11-2011, 07:26 AM

The actual job that uses Runic was a Rune Knight, which was very similar to RDM far more so than PLD.

Except she could wear heavy armor. I always considered celes to be more of a PLD than anything. Although since she had native damage spells she'd be more akin to DRK.

Either way it doesnt matter. This (the op) is basically just cover for magic damage, and it'd be a PLD ability (possible rdm could get it too though, see shield mastery)

I'm betting they only read OP.

Yeah i'm at work didnt have time to read the whole thing

If you want PLD to get a new ability, then give them an AOE spell or JA that works like stone skin, but for magic damage only.I dont particularly care about pld getting a new ability, but the way you presented runic in the op is a pld ability, not rdm.

After going back and reading the new runic ability I don't really have an opinion on it, it seems too complicated to actually get implemented.

Seriha

06-11-2011, 09:25 AM

I'd be okay with the capture/release aspect of a Runic ability that did take a party member's spell, preserving all its statistical info to be released by the RDM at their discretion. So say early on in a fight you absorb a BLM's Blizzaga III, later on a darkness SC is set up with the BLM bursting the same spell and you then release the one you'd been holding. That could be a potential instant 10k if the BLM's pimp enough and a sizable chunk of any mob's HP.

Beyond that, this is kind of creeping up there on my list of disdain like the old and tired Double Cast idea. I just can't see SE giving an ability to completely negate a any mob's spell (Utsu at least fails to -agas or SCH-buffed STs), let alone at a reasonable timer. I'm quite bluntly sick of any JA having a timer greater than 3m these days, as it only perpetuates FFXI's slow combat compared to other games and feeds into the lack of diversification among jobs. Anything too short, however, and you risk multiple RDMs in an alliance basically shutting down a caster mob, which are usually defensively squishy and only a threat because of said spells.

Merton9999

06-11-2011, 09:49 AM

I'm sorry to hear it. I enjoy hunting loot. The more elusive and rare the better so long as the monster in front of it is actually a challenge. Fighting hard stuff is how I have fun.

I like playing with my friends, who are all competent at the game. They would have no problem, pull any of this off. Watching things blow up is more satisfying when it's in a group and we actually had to try.

I do find Aby to be dreadfully boring, almost all of the time. But you are entitled to your opinion. If you like the simplified version, can you suggest a compromise that might be somewhere in the middle?

I'm suggesting the ability to:

nullify enemy Nukes
take hate for mages
open up magic bursting without SCs
amplify nuke damage

and you dont want it?

No need to be sorry. I liked the challenges the game posed in the first couple years, and played it non-stop. I just had my fill and moved on. I came back when easy content became the norm, and I play with the same small group too, who all did the same. We all take it extremely lightly, with a beer in one hand, and a controller in the other. At this point we have fun just watching things blow up, but no longer need or want it to be challenging.

The complications I listed could be more than handled in my pack, but none of us would have the tolerance for the coordination aspect anymore. I'm not saying I wouldn't like an uncontrolled version, just that it would end up too annoying over time for me, I'd limit it to small group use if that, and my guess is others would too.

I like the matching enspell requirement as a compromise because it's a mechanic everyone could get used to with no notifications, very little chance of unintentional absorption, and almost no potential to cure the mob. It also makes you choose between using the ability offensively or defensively, and doesn't allow a complete reflection of all the mob's spells, which otherwise could only be achieved through a terribly long recast. I would just up the damage modifier to Runic by a lot more than the RDM's MAB. In fact I'd make it so higher tiers (or even just a spell absorbed from someone other than the RDM) offered dramatically more damage than what the RDM can cast, so you have an ability that is highly valued in parties, but avoids the whining about RDM being an overpowered soloist.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 10:11 AM

No need to be sorry. I liked the challenges the game posed in the first couple years, and played it non-stop. I just had my fill and moved on. I came back when easy content became the norm, and I play with the same small group too, who all did the same. We all take it extremely lightly, with a beer in one hand, and a controller in the other. At this point we have fun just watching things blow up, but no longer need or want it to be challenging.

The complications I listed could be more than handled in my pack, but none of us would have the tolerance for the coordination aspect anymore. I'm not saying I wouldn't like an uncontrolled version, just that it would end up too annoying over time for me, I'd limit it to small group use if that, and my guess is others would too.

I like the matching enspell requirement as a compromise because it's a mechanic everyone could get used to with no notifications, very little chance of unintentional absorption, and almost no potential to cure the mob. It also makes you choose between using the ability offensively or defensively, and doesn't allow a complete reflection of all the mob's spells, which otherwise could only be achieved through a terribly long recast. I would just up the damage modifier to Runic by a lot more than the RDM's MAB. In fact I'd make it so higher tiers (or even just a spell absorbed from someone other than the RDM) offered dramatically more damage than what the RDM can cast, so you have an ability that is highly valued in parties, but avoids the whining about RDM being an overpowered soloist.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate the way you stated your opinion and gave additional insight. It is personally helpful to me to understand where you are coming from and I can agree with your rationale.

2 points sir, 2 points.

I'd be okay with the capture/release aspect of a Runic ability that did take a party member's spell, preserving all its statistical info to be released by the RDM at their discretion. So say early on in a fight you absorb a BLM's Blizzaga III, later on a darkness SC is set up with the BLM bursting the same spell and you then release the one you'd been holding. That could be a potential instant 10k if the BLM's pimp enough and a sizable chunk of any mob's HP.

Simple is better...

yeah why not. Screw the other mechanics. Catch and release wouldn't be that hard.

Anyone have any preference on delivery method other than JA?

Use it once to setup absorbing. Use it a 2nd time to release with additional MAB damage from RDM?

Supersun

06-11-2011, 12:28 PM

I was thinking about it and like Seriha mentioned there is no way that SE would let you absorb the entirety of a spell on a low enough timer to make is useful.

People also tend to complain about how one of the biggest disadvantages for Rdm to melee is that he has to place himself in harms way.

Maybe runic could be instead of something about absorbing an entire spell or dumping a nuke from a party member it can be an incentive for Rdm to stay within melee range and a way to help protect the Red mage from close range damage.

Runic JT
Rdm ?? / Pld ?? / Drk ??

Reduces 10% of all magical damage received to MP.
(numbers are negotiable of course it could even be a tiered JT where the % increases)

Helps reduce damage taken by the Red Mage making the Red mage one of the safer jobs to keep close. At the same time even if he does get hurt he can use the MP absorbed by the spell to help assist those who got hit.

Duelle

06-11-2011, 02:10 PM

Except she could wear heavy armor. I always considered celes to be more of a PLD than anything. Although since she had native damage spells she'd be more akin to DRK.On a concept level, magitek knights (which is basically what Tina/Terra and Celes are) are rather close to Red Mages.

The reason Paladins have cover is because of cecil who made it a staple ability for PLDs in FFIV. Runic and Cover have nothing to do with one another. That's not even going into how one belongs to a knight and the other belongs to a magic swordsman. PLD is of the former, RDM is of the latter (refresh-whoring notwithstanding).

Raksha

06-11-2011, 02:17 PM

On a concept level, magitek knights (which is basically what Tina/Terra and Celes are) are rather close to Red Mages.

The reason Paladins have cover is because of cecil who made it a staple ability for PLDs in FFIV. Runic and Cover have nothing to do with one another. That's not even going into how one belongs to a knight and the other belongs to a magic swordsman. PLD is of the former, RDM is of the latter (refresh-whoring notwithstanding).

Justify it however you like. Cover is a PLD ability because that's what tanks do. Magic cover would be the same way.

Not that some random wiki is a reliable source, but:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Celes_Chere

Celes's abilities are similar to Terra's. She has all-around high stats and equips swords, maces, some daggers, heavy armor, some hats and robes, and all shields. She also has access to female-specific equipment. Celes and Terra have almost identical equipment draws, except for the Cotton Robe, and their respective ultimate weapons in the Advance release - while Terra uses the Apocalypse, Celes wields the Save the Queen. Celes's ability is Runic, which negates the next magical ability used and heals Celes of an amount of MP equal to that ability's MP cost. As she is rescued from prison when she joins the party, Celes joins wearing only a Hair Band.

Along with Terra, Celes is the second party member to be able to learn magic without equipping Magicite. Compared to Terra, Celes' spells are more defensive in nature,and she learns more status spells while Terra learns more damaging spells. She also learns Ice element spells, contrasting with Terra's fire spells.

Anyway, i'm not gonna argue ff6 with you. The version of runic presented in the op is more PLDs flavor. Not saying that it's a bad idea or that RDM shouldn't get it or anything like that, i'm just being pragmatic. If SE implemented as in the OP it would be a PLD ability.

Duelle

06-11-2011, 03:09 PM

Justify it however you like. Cover is a PLD ability because that's what tanks do. Magic cover would be the same way.Except for the fact that FF paladins are weak in the magic department. This has always been the case, and is fine because the class still plays up to concept. RDM on the other hand is on the uphill battle, hence our discussions.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 06:56 PM

Raksha

06-11-2011, 10:23 PM

Except for the fact that FF paladins are weak in the magic department. This has always been the case, and is fine because the class still plays up to concept. RDM on the other hand is on the uphill battle, hence our discussions.

They are also weak in the tanking department, but that's neither here nor there.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-12-2011, 01:35 AM

They are also weak in the tanking department, but that's neither here nor there.

No they're not!

PLD is only not used as a tank because it doesn't deal enough DMG to justify having.

1 WHM can keep any DD alive inside or outside of abyssea so it's more beneficial to have 5 DD's then 4 DD's and a PLD. Where you got your idea they are weak tanking I do not know, PLD are still the best at mitigating DMG, it's just not needed.

Supersun

06-12-2011, 05:10 AM

Let me rephrase that

Reduces 10% of all magical damage taken and converts it into MP.

Obviously 100% would be nice but that might be slightly broken on a JT :P

---

Also there are other ways to fix Paladin besides making it do more damage.

ManaKing

06-12-2011, 05:50 AM

Let me rephrase that

Reduces 10% of all magical damage taken and converts it into MP.

Obviously 100% would be nice but that might be slightly broken on a JT :P

Nope. 100% sounds perfect! ~.^ Get on it.

Merton9999

06-12-2011, 07:57 AM

I like this version of Runic, Supersun. It's useful, simple, and gives me a nostalgic ability without being poo-pooed as too overpowered to implement. Also, in a sense, you could look at it as bouncing the mob's nuke back at them. If you make the MP absorption rate high enough, you'd have enough additional mana from a Runic use to nuke back in the traditional sense.

It does lack the melee encouragement, teamwork aspect, and the concept of taking hate for other mages, though. And there's something FFVI-esque I'd miss if I wasn't required to be wielding a sword to activate Runic! I'd ideally like to see SE work with the other Runic suggestions here in whatever balanced manner they need to.

In any case, I'd still make it a JA instead of a JT, so you have to time it. The other problem I have is that in this version it does sound more like a PLD ability. However, they do have a "Converts damage to MP" on their AF3 head already. Let's hope SE takes one thing RDMs are asking for and doesn't redirect it to another job.