On Puppetmaster, Dancer, Rune Fencer Job Abilities

[Asymptotic]

Hello Players, Community Team, and Developers!
(in the case where you fall into more than one of these categories, you are still capped at a maximum of a single "hello!" Balance!)

Unlike other front-line jobs, Puppetmaster, Dancer and Rune Fencer have a focus on the repeated use of short-recast job abilities in order to maintain their intended function. Unfortunately, this becomes detrimental because of the forced delays incurred with using a job ability. To a lesser extent, dragoons are also affected so I will also address that in this thread.

There are two categories of delay:

1.) A hard delay during which no other abilities or melee attacks can be performed (1 second) - (this delay is probably fair)
2.) A soft delay in which you may execute another job ability but you cannot perform a melee attack (1 second) - (this is the one that is the major problem)

In all cases I propose the removal of the second category of delay (soft delay) from certain job abilities that are designed to be repeatedly used by these jobs (but not the first category, the hard delay) . In certain cases I provide additional suggestions based on the nature of these job abilities and suggest two new job abilities designed to alleviate the delay woes these jobs would still experience in high-haste situations where job ability forced delay is more pronounced.

On Puppetmaster:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/b/b5/Puppetmaster.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Maneuvers
Increase the maximum effect duration from the following job abilities: Maneuvers (1 minute --> 3 minutes)

Add a new job ability that will force the next maneuver to apply three stages of the maneuver at once. Here is my suggestion:

Risky Routine: (Recast: 5 minutes) Your next maneuver will apply three maneuver effects instead of one, but the burden on your Automaton will be drastic.

Notes: It would be very easy to overload an automaton using this ability, but it would allow the Puppetmaster to quickly maximize an aspect of the Automaton for a time.


On Dancer:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/thumb/b/b0/Dancer_2.jpg/180px-Dancer_2.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Steps
Allow appropriate job-ability specific gear/enhancements to allow the following job abilities to surpass the melee accuracy cap: Steps (appropriate gear being gear that "Increases "Steps" accuracy")
The forced delay on Presto, Sambas, Waltzes, and Flourishes is probably a fair trade-off for their effects but opinions will differ on this.

Add a new job ability that will force the next step to inflict the maximum level of daze. Here is my suggestion:

Grand Jeté: (Recast: 3 minutes) Your next step will increase the daze to the maximum level but the TP cost will be tripled and will not grant finishing moves.


Note: Grand Jeté would not grant a bonus to step accuracy like Presto does. This ability is designed to allow a Dancer to contribute the maximum enfeebling effect for fast situations.

On Rune Fencer:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/1/16/Rune_Fencerv2.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Rune Enchantments


On Dragoon:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/thumb/7/78/Dragoon.jpg/180px-Dragoon.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Jump, High Jump, Spirit Jump, Super Jump, Soul Jump


These changes would remove the unfair hindrances that these classes experience based on their design. I have been relatively conservative with these suggestions.

[Alhanelem]

Add a new job ability that will force the next step to inflict the maximum level of daze. Here is my suggestion:

Grand Jeté: (Recast: 3 minutes) Your next step will increase the daze to the maximum level but the TP cost will be tripled.This ability already exists on a smaller scale, called Presto. I think it's fine the way it is.

I'm also not sure why you feel like steps need an exemption from accuracy rules; this doesn't have anything to do with your underlying complaint about job ability delay, which i wholeheartedly agree with.

Other than what I described above, your suggestions all make sense and would be very much welcomed.

[Umichi]

i would like to just start swinging as soon as i land but i think the 1 second mele rule works well for drg because after al you are just landing after doing a jump...

[Cair]

Trying to apply real life logic to a game has never been an intelligent approach to discussion, ever. So, even disregarding the fact that you can make use of a weapon during the landing of a jump in real life, the reliance of job abilities for these jobs to function effectively being hindered by the very nature of using job abilities makes them impractical choices in so many situations.

Unbalanced, if you would.

[Asymptotic]

This ability already exists on a smaller scale, called Presto. I think it's fine the way it is. Presto is an additional job ability to use (more aggregate delay) and serves, subtly, a different purpose completely. Presto penalizes you slightly (fewer net finishing moves) but you still require at least 1 minute and 4 JA activations to apply the maximum level of daze. In a high-haste situation, dancers have extremely low delay so the cost of doing so is extremely high. This ability provides no self-enhancing bonus (presto has +50 accuracy and +1 finishing move) but it does allow you to inflict the maximum enfeebling effect at the start of a fight some of the time. Presto is more valuable when solo or low-man because you're probably more interested in flourishes than you are in the enfeebling effects of steps.

Dancers would probably use Presto in low-haste situations where the cost of using presto and steps is low and flourishes are more valuable, and the new type of job ability that I proposed in high-haste situations where the cost of using presto and steps is quite high and flourishes are not particularly useful. I specifically only included steps (and not presto or any other job ability) in the request for delay removal since it can be argued that their benefits are "balanced" by the cost.

Notably, the duration of a daze when applied is 1 minute and increases by 30 seconds every time you apply the step again. Using the type of job ability I described would still only give you one minute of maintenance free LV5 daze. If you wished to maintain that level on a longer fight you would have to start using steps again until the recast of the job ability counts down. I set the recast of the job ability three times longer than this with this in mind.

I think to make it more clear of the purpose of the job ability, I will change it as follows:

Grand Jeté: (Recast: 3 minutes) Your next step will increase the daze to the maximum level but the TP cost will be tripled and will not grant any finishing moves.

I think this makes it more apparent that this is more of an offensive version of "No Foot Rise" designed for alliance-level content than an extended version of Presto.



I'm also not sure why you feel like steps need an exemption from accuracy rules; this doesn't have anything to do with your underlying complaint about job ability delay, which i wholeheartedly agree with.

Specifically, they should make gear with "increases steps accuracy" surpass the accuracy cap and not raw accuracy alone. Not only would it justify the stat enhancement existing in the first place (otherwise it's quite literally worthless) but it would remove the problem of "we need the dancer to inflict defense down daze for this short duration fight, oh crap their step missed." A precedent exists with Angon (it has 100% accuracy) and there are other pieces of equipment that surpass "hard caps" in other categories. The thread title is "On _____ Job abilities" so I don't necessarily exclude the other types of suggestions. These are suggestions that would overall make the jobs more enjoyable to play. I did not, however include suggestions that were not related to the nature of these Jobs' abilities.

I don't necessarily know if an ability to instantly maximize a rune would be balanced for Rune Fencer or not. Whereas Steps and Maneuvers both have an additional cost beyond their delay (TP and maneuvers), Runes have no additional cost so there was nothing to sacrifice whereas for DNC and PUP you can increase the TP cost and/or remove the benefit of finishing moves, or apply a drastic amount of instantaneous burden, respectively. Because of this concern I did not suggest an analogous job ability for Rune Fencer.

[Tennotsukai]

Idk about the other jobs, but Pup definitely requires this fix I feel.

[Alhanelem]

Presto is an additional job ability to use (more aggregate delay) and serves, subtly, a different purpose completely.I see the point of presto as getting a step debuff to its maximum strength in a shorter period of time. If the JA delay on these abilities is removed as you say, while it is more ability activaitons it is still less time spent to max out the effect. As for the "punishment", it is offset by the time savings, and the fact that the max finishing moves is 5- one Presto step and one normal one = max finishing moves. If Presto gave 4 finishing moves, you would waste one on your next step if you waited, and would use your finishing moves to less effect if you didn't wait.


Grand Jeté: (Recast: 3 minutes) Your next step will increase the daze to the maximum level but the TP cost will be tripled and will not grant any finishing moves.I'm not really sure I would use this, as finishing moves are an important part of the job. That said, you're also generous in only tripling the TP cost because this saves a tremendous amount of time- it should cost the same TP as the 5 steps that would normally be required.

(Please understand I totally want JA delay to die as you do- I simply would rather hold off on other adjustments that aren't needed to compensate for a delay that would have been removed if the suggestions were implemented)

[Asymptotic]

If Presto gave 4 finishing moves, you would waste one on your next step if you waited, and would use your finishing moves to less effect if you didn't wait.

Presto does give me 4 finishing moves, but it didn't really change the way I use my FMs. 3 FM reverse flourish was already enough to perform a solo-skillchain (57TP) after WS TP return + one round of attacks.

I don't think merely tripling the cost is generous since 30 TP is the minimum to apply 5 levels of daze (Presto+Step -- > Step --- >Presto + Step) and the ability is on a timer (Accession can make a single-target spell hit 6 people and merely doubles the cost for the expense of a charge). While finishing moves are important to the job in low-man situations, they're practically worthless in high-hast situations where the cost of activating a job ability is high. This is why I specified


Dancers would probably use Presto in low-haste situations where the cost of using presto and steps is low and flourishes are more valuable, and the new type of job ability that I proposed in high-haste situations where the cost of using presto and steps is quite high and flourishes are not particularly useful. I specifically only included steps (and not presto or any other job ability) in the request for delay removal since it can be argued that their benefits are "balanced" by the cost.

Enumerated, it costs more TP to use and charge a full reverse flourish (outside of No Foot Rise) after considering both the cost of the steps and the forced delays than it does to melee up the TP (this remains true even after moving the forced post-ability delay since the first half of the delay (animation delay) is unlikely to go anywhere).

[Asymptotic]

(Please understand I totally want JA delay to die as you do- I simply would rather hold off on other adjustments that aren't needed to compensate for a delay that would have been removed if the suggestions were implemented)

The DNC and PUP suggestions do take into account the removal of soft delay, but still take into account the "hard" delay of one second where no other actions are possible. If you think either of these abilities would be broken, then by all means enumerate why, but if you just wouldn't use them because you never find yourself in situations where they would be useful, that's not necessarily a reason to shoot something down.

I frequently have full haste buffs because my group almost always has a BRD, so the high-haste cost of steps and flourishes is a lot more noticeable perhaps.

[Alhanelem]

Presto does give me 4 finishing moves, but it didn't really change the way I use my FMs.

Uhm, Presto only yields 1 additional finishing move, meaning you get 3 from the step you subsequently use instead of 2.

[Asymptotic]

Uhm, Presto only yields 1 additional finishing move, meaning you get 3 from the step you subsequently use instead of 2.

Hence why I specifically said "I" do. (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Fenrir/Sylow)


Presto does give me 4 finishing moves, but it didn't really change the way I use my FMs. 3 FM reverse flourish was already enough to perform a solo-skillchain (57TP) after WS TP return + one round of attacks.

In other words the transition from getting 3fms with Presto to Terpsichore (4fms with Presto) did not change the most effective way to use my fms!

[Alhanelem]

I understand that, but TP on DNC isn't just for WS. I'd rather get 100 TP from reverse flourish than not 100 TP.

Also, you're an extremely rare breed with terpsichore, so while you're saying it didn't affect things for you, that doesn't mean it doesn't affect things for anyone else.

[Asymptotic]

The only reason to use Reverse Flourish is to build random TP to start things or to solo skillchain, otherwise you are better off meleeing for TP. Otherwise it was this (where both WS were Rudra's Storm):

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/Last%20Dance/Guide/skillchainprocess.gif (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27566/the-last-dance-gearing-paradigms-for-a-new-age#1671943)

Terpsichore did not change how I used reverse flourish, it only changed the weapon skills that I was using and the fact that I no longer had any use for flourishes outside of Reverse and the random Violent. It's the downfall of Terpsichore: a million FMs and no reason to spend them. As a result, the only aspect of DNC that it changes is that you use fewer of DNC's inherent abilities.

[Ophannus]

SE has acknowledged the delay for DRG which is why they implemented Spirit and Soul Jump(they increased the TP for these abilities from 1.5->2 and from 2->3 I believe for Spirit and Soul respectively.) Their logic was that the TP generated by Jump and High Jump did not warrant their use since they slowed down the Dragoon's attack speed. Because of this, Jumps were actually not worth interrupting your attack rounds since they gave as much TP as a regular hit but had a 2 second delay which otherwise wouldn't have been there at all if you didn't Jump. Spirit and Soul Jump were implemented to give you 2-3 attack rounds worth of TP to justify the delay.

[Ophannus]

I feel as though SE won't do this simply because JAs cost no MP nor ammunition to use, they need to have some kind of delay. Magic has a delay and so do weapon skills. DNC isn't a mage per se but its steps/waltzes and flourishes are instant cures/buffs/debuffs. The delay on PUP or DNC abilities serves as an analogue to mages. Mages use magic, which has delay, and light armored jobs use JAs for special effects/bonuses which are given a delay as well. It's a balanced mechanic I think.

Take waltz for example. It has a delay that interrupts your attacks and prevent melee swings but it cant be interrupted, it can be cast while running, it's instant and can't be silenced. Steps lower def or evasion, they can miss but they don't expend tools or MP, they expend TP which is technically 'free'(no refresh needed etc).

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay. I feel like SE lets the JA delay slide on these jobs since from their original vision sees these jobs as support damage dealers not main frontline damage dealers like SAM WAR MNK DRK. DNC and PUP fit that ambiguous,tactical, light armored, rogue archetype. Moderate damage but has a host of gimmicks or special effects that enhance the party or debuffs the mob, but could concentrate solely on damage if need be(to a lesser extent than a main DD job though). I think if you look at PUP how SE envisioned them and less how you want them to be played, it makes more sense. DNC and PUP are so versatile and can do so much more than a SAM WAR MNK DRK(in terms of roles i.e healing, debuffing, nuking) that the JA delay in a way creates a barrier, preventing them from entering the realm of those SAM WAR MNK DRK jobs which can't drop a waltz or a fire V and can only output damage. Because of that, the JA delay is an indirect barrier preventing jobs that have high damage potential but also have other tools and versatile abilities that main DDs dont have, from becoming overpowered.

tl;dr DNC swings extremely fast, has Cure V and Cure VI, debuffs, has a 10% haste JA, great SC ability, reverse flourish and a ton of other JAs, 2h DDs have way less than that; so the JA delay kind of prevents jobs like DNC from becoming too powerful; besides mages have cast delay way longer than JA delay

[Asymptotic]

Except it doesn't work out like that because JA delay is crippling (PUP is weakened because they have an automaton so the automaton is taken into account for balance but the automaton is rendered useless for PUP to function in higher content because the cost of using maneuvers is too high) -- but concerns like yours are why I conservatively suggested removal of the soft delay (only the second half of the delay) and not the first half (the hard delay) and only on a specific subset of job abilities which are designed to be used repeatedly at high frequency (but did not request removal from Waltzes etc)

Magic is a completely different story but the effects of most spells are more potent than similarly leveled job abilities and I didn't address that in this thread (I'll let the myriad RDM melee threads handle that) although the delay should probably be lowered on that as well

[Alhanelem]

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay.Difficulty:

To enhance your automaton's performance, you have to sacrifice your own (both in JA delay from maneuvers and in equipment). To boost your own performance, you have to sacrifice the automaton's, and furthermore alter its behavior in an undesirable way. The benefits of enhancing one or the other basically cancel eachother out. Cutting down JA delay, making the time investment in boosting your auto smaller makes boosting your automaton more worthwhile.

[Asymptotic]

The game is not going to break if Dancers and Puppetmasters can suddenly use Steps and Maneuvers with half of the forced delay that they currently experience. We're not talking about "On the Dot" here.

(sorry I just had to take a cheap shot at that, mini-games crashing servers is seriously hilarious)

That aside, the soft delay is sort of silly in the first place. I just used a job ability so I can't swing my weapon during this time, but! I can Jump, or cast a spell, or use a weapon skill, or use another job ability! Herpaderpadoo! ^(='-'=)^

[xiozen]

To OP: I like it! Especially the suggestion for Puppetmaster... not only makes sense but its a worthy adjustment. THANKS! I hope the Devs listen.

[Byrth]

I've been asking for an elimination of "soft" JA delay across the board pretty much since the creation of these forums and it has never gotten a response. I wish this thread more luck!

[Asymptotic]

I've been asking for an elimination of "soft" JA delay across the board pretty much since the creation of these forums and it has never gotten a response. I wish this thread more luck!

I asked for the removal of only a subset of JAs in hopes that a more conservative request might at least get a slap on the wrist from Camate!

[Horadrim]

Hello Players, Community Team, and Developers!
(in the case where you fall into more than one of these categories, you are still capped at a maximum of a single "hello!" Balance!)

Unlike other front-line jobs, Puppetmaster, Dancer and Rune Fencer have a focus on the repeated use of short-recast job abilities in order to maintain their intended function. Unfortunately, this becomes detrimental because of the forced delays incurred with using a job ability. To a lesser extent, dragoons are also affected so I will also address that in this thread.

There are two categories of delay:

1.) A hard delay during which no other abilities or melee attacks can be performed (1 second) - (this delay is probably fair)
2.) A soft delay in which you may execute another job ability but you cannot perform a melee attack (1 second) - (this is the one that is the major problem)

In all cases I propose the removal of the second category of delay (soft delay) from certain job abilities that are designed to be repeatedly used by these jobs (but not the first category, the hard delay) . In certain cases I provide additional suggestions based on the nature of these job abilities and suggest two new job abilities designed to alleviate the delay woes these jobs would still experience in high-haste situations where job ability forced delay is more pronounced.

On Puppetmaster:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/b/b5/Puppetmaster.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Maneuvers
Increase the maximum effect duration from the following job abilities: Maneuvers (1 minute --> 3 minutes)

Add a new job ability that will force the next maneuver to apply three stages of the maneuver at once. Here is my suggestion:

Risky Routine: (Recast: 5 minutes) Your next maneuver will apply three maneuver effects instead of one, but the burden on your Automaton will be drastic.

Notes: It would be very easy to overload an automaton using this ability, but it would allow the Puppetmaster to quickly maximize an aspect of the Automaton for a time.


On Dancer:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/thumb/b/b0/Dancer_2.jpg/180px-Dancer_2.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Steps
Allow appropriate job-ability specific gear/enhancements to allow the following job abilities to surpass the melee accuracy cap: Steps (appropriate gear being gear that "Increases "Steps" accuracy")
The forced delay on Presto, Sambas, Waltzes, and Flourishes is probably a fair trade-off for their effects but opinions will differ on this.

Add a new job ability that will force the next step to inflict the maximum level of daze. Here is my suggestion:

Grand Jeté: (Recast: 3 minutes) Your next step will increase the daze to the maximum level but the TP cost will be tripled and will not grant finishing moves.


Note: Grand Jeté would not grant a bonus to step accuracy like Presto does. This ability is designed to allow a Dancer to contribute the maximum enfeebling effect for fast situations.

On Rune Fencer:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/1/16/Rune_Fencerv2.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Rune Enchantments


On Dragoon:


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/thumb/7/78/Dragoon.jpg/180px-Dragoon.jpg

Suggestions

Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Jump, High Jump, Spirit Jump, Super Jump, Soul Jump


These changes would remove the unfair hindrances that these classes experience based on their design. I have been relatively conservative with these suggestions.

As this deals with 3 of my 5 jobs I find myself specifically relevant to the conversation.
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I agree with all of this. (._.)

[Mizuharu]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37075304.jpg

Felt appropriate. >_>

[Asymptotic]

Quantification:

For all comparisons we'll assume a probably low estimate of 100 dmg average / hit for simplicity.

At Capped Haste

Scenario 1 - Top Of The Line at Haste Cap + Mythic AM3
No additional DW gear
QA 4
DA 31
TA 8
Store TP + 41


Terpsichore 99 | Twashtar 99
Delay 205 | Delay 176
(133.5 base delay with DWIV)
Base TP /hit: 4.6
TP / Hit with STP: 6.5
Attacks per Round: 3.58
TP per round: ~23.3
Floored Delay: 76.2
Approx. time per round: ~1.27s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
77 TP return
Gain: 67 TP

3.14 - 4.72 rounds lost
73 - 109.3 TP lost

Net Gain: -43 to -5
-1124 to 1689 damage lost

======================================

Twashtar 99 | Pugiunclus
Delay 176 | Delay 150
(114.1 base delay with DWIV)
Base TP /hit: 4.45
TP / Hit with STP: 6.27
Attacks per Round: 3.31
TP per round: 20.7
Floored Delay: 65.2
Approx. time per round: ~1.09s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
57 TP return
Gain: 47 TP

3.67 - 5.5 rounds lost
75 - 114 TP lost

Net Gain: -67 to -28 TP
1214 to 1820 damage lost


Time to use Presto + Box step + Box Step + Reverse Flourish
6-8 seconds non-melee time
20 TP cost
100 TP return
Gain: 80TP

55 to 7.34 rounds lost
114 - 152 TP lost

Net Gain: -34 to -72 TP
1820 to 2429 damage lost

=========================================

Terpsichore 99 | Twashtar 99
Delay 205 | Delay 176
NOT HASTE CAPPED
DW+23 STP+46
Haste (150/1024) + Samba(101/1024) + 23% gear (233/1024)


QA: 0 TA: 3 DA: 28
Post DW Delay: 89.5 (hit)
Base TP: 4.24
Post STP TP: 6.2
Attacks per round: 3.31
TP/round: 20.5

Post-haste delay: 94.4
Time/Round: 1.57s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
77 TP return
Gain: 67 TP

2.55 to 3.82 rounds lost
52.23 - 78 TP lost
844 to 1264 damage lost

Net gain: -11 to +15
+2 average

=================================

Twashtar 9X | Thokcha 99
STP+31

This last one assumes a worst case where you have to sub NIN or something else silly!

QA: 0 TA: 3 DA: 31
Post DW Delay: 86.01 (hit)
Base TP: 4.21
Post STP TP: 5.52
Attacks per round: 2.83
TP/round: 15.62
Haste (150/1024) + Samba(101/1024) + 23% gear (233/1024)

Post Haste Delay: 90.7
Time per round: ~1.51 s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
57 TP return
Gain: 47 TP

4-6 melee econds lost
2.65 to 3.97 rounds lost
41.4 to 62 tp lost
Net gain: -15 to +5.6
749 to 1123 damage lost


Time to use Presto + Box step + Box Step + Reverse Flourish
6-8 seconds non-melee time
20 TP cost
100 TP return
Gain: 80 TP

3.97 to 5.29 rounds lost
62 to 82.63 tp lost
-2.63 to +18 TP gained
1123 to 1497 damage lost

=============

And the worst case without saber dance

QA: 0 TA: 3 DA: 11
Post DW Delay: 86.01 (hit)
Base TP: 4.21
Post STP TP: 5.52
Attacks per round: 2.45
TP/round: 13.52
Haste (150/1024) + Samba(101/1024) + 23% gear (233/1024)

Post Haste Delay: 90.7
Time per round: ~1.51 s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
57 TP return
Gain: 47 TP

4-6 melee econds lost
2.65 to 3.97 rounds lost
35.8 to 53.6 tp lost
Net gain: -6.6 to +11.2
Damage lost 649 to 972
Damage Equivalence of net TP assuming no overflow: -132 to +220




Time to use Presto + Box step + Box Step + Reverse Flourish
6-8 seconds non-melee time
20 TP cost
100 TP return
Gain: 80 TP

3.97 to 5.29 rounds lost
53.67 to 71.63 tp lost
+8 to +27 TP gained
972 to 1296 damage lost
Damage equivalence of net TP assuming no overflow: +160 to +540


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Even in the worst case (non SAM subjob, only self-applicable buffs, no saber dance), the benefit of using Reverse Flourish (without No Foot Rise) for raw TP gain is marginal at best because of the forced delay invovled and is only really worth using for a solo skillchain where the additional skillchain damage will overcome the damage loss due to delay.

The only exception perhaps would be if your situation warrants constantly using waltzes and these situations are some combination of a.) extrmely rare or b.) situations where DNC is filling a role it's not designed to fill.

[Seha]

Not entirely sure about jumps, but /supports

[Glamdring]

I feel as though SE won't do this simply because JAs cost no MP nor ammunition to use, they need to have some kind of delay. Magic has a delay and so do weapon skills. DNC isn't a mage per se but its steps/waltzes and flourishes are instant cures/buffs/debuffs. The delay on PUP or DNC abilities serves as an analogue to mages. Mages use magic, which has delay, and light armored jobs use JAs for special effects/bonuses which are given a delay as well. It's a balanced mechanic I think.

Take waltz for example. It has a delay that interrupts your attacks and prevent melee swings but it cant be interrupted, it can be cast while running, it's instant and can't be silenced. Steps lower def or evasion, they can miss but they don't expend tools or MP, they expend TP which is technically 'free'(no refresh needed etc).

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay. I feel like SE lets the JA delay slide on these jobs since from their original vision sees these jobs as support damage dealers not main frontline damage dealers like SAM WAR MNK DRK. DNC and PUP fit that ambiguous,tactical, light armored, rogue archetype. Moderate damage but has a host of gimmicks or special effects that enhance the party or debuffs the mob, but could concentrate solely on damage if need be(to a lesser extent than a main DD job though). I think if you look at PUP how SE envisioned them and less how you want them to be played, it makes more sense. DNC and PUP are so versatile and can do so much more than a SAM WAR MNK DRK(in terms of roles i.e healing, debuffing, nuking) that the JA delay in a way creates a barrier, preventing them from entering the realm of those SAM WAR MNK DRK jobs which can't drop a waltz or a fire V and can only output damage. Because of that, the JA delay is an indirect barrier preventing jobs that have high damage potential but also have other tools and versatile abilities that main DDs dont have, from becoming overpowered.

tl;dr DNC swings extremely fast, has Cure V and Cure VI, debuffs, has a 10% haste JA, great SC ability, reverse flourish and a ton of other JAs, 2h DDs have way less than that; so the JA delay kind of prevents jobs like DNC from becoming too powerful; besides mages have cast delay way longer than JA delay

I agree with you 100%, and my worry is these soft delays are there for balance, if SE takes those "nerf" elements from the job what will we get in return?

Dnc already hits like a feather duster, just a very FAST feather duster, handy for a tickle fetishest, not so much for a DD. If they get us swinging even faster they'll probably just reduce our attack or ACC, and that's the last thing I want.

Pup, it's a bit annoying but nothing major to me. My pup is already almost as strong as my beast, and with greater all around utility. The only worries I actually have is casting during downtime, slow attacks from Valoredge and shield bash is too slow to actually stun anything short of AM, I can't put any trial buff on a 2nd hand, and that I can't save configurations. Granted, now that it's not in Aby all the time I do use different attachment arrays a bit more.

I don't play drg so no comments there.

Rune, if anything maybe pup has me overconditioned, but since the runes last so much longer than manuvers I tend not to watch them as closely as I do playing pup so I end up not renewing them when they need it, and that affects both my DPS and my defense. Partly a learning curve, but the hit to reapply runes to my DPS is so small (and faster than the Enspells they kind of emulate) that I have no issues with delay. Now, if they upped the enmity enough-and tanking was enough of a part of current gameplay that tank hate was an issue-that I was actively using runes for hate generation despite the duration I would be alot more concerned. But it isn't. However, rune and SoA are still under development (we don't even have merits or JSE yet), so I can definitely see this BECOMING an issue depending on which way they go.

[Alhanelem]

The only exception perhaps would be if your situation warrants constantly using waltzes and these situations are some combination of a.) extrmely rare or b.) situations where DNC is filling a role it's not designed to fill. I think it's amusing that you say this is a role DNC wasn't designed to fill. I've done it myself on many occasions (especially in abyssea where you can have essentially unlimited TP and can full time heal on DNC/WHM.

DNC is more than capable of being a decent DPS, as you demonstrate, but to argue that it it isn't designed to be a hybrid support class when that's exactly what it's supposed to be? uhm.... ?

This has gotten really off topic... I don't think we need an anaylsis of DNC's TP gain to say that these jobs would benefit a lot from curbing JA delay.

[Asymptotic]

Dark Knights have spells but that doesn't mean that it's generally effective to use them - waltzes were effective at 75 but SE has made it apparent that they have abandoned that design paradigm for something else all together. If you're going DNC/WHM and healing fulltime in Abyssea then I really have nothing more to say to you any more than I would someone arguing that a big wheel is an effective means of transportation on the highway.

[Asymptotic]

This has gotten really off topic... I don't think we need an anaylsis of DNC's TP gain to say that these jobs would benefit a lot from curbing JA delay.

It's actually in response to the "But balance!" people, because it ends up working out to the same thing as giving Refresh a 120MP cost while tripling the cast time and saying "It has to be expensive because you can do so many other things!"

[Yinnyth]

It would certainly be nice if these changes could be made, but why restrict them only to the jobs you have listed? Why not allow all jobs to reap the rewards of decreased animation delay?

If I had to take a guess at why the system was made the way it is, I would assume it's because they want their (at the time) awesome-looking animation to play fully instead of being interrupted by your character taking another swing.

For the time being... my fellow rune fencers, I strongly suggest popping a rune just before using a WS or spell. Stacking these things together seems to minimize the impact that animation delay holds on your character.

[Asymptotic]

It would certainly be nice if these changes could be made, but why restrict them only to the jobs you have listed? Why not allow all jobs to reap the rewards of decreased animation delay?

If I had to take a guess at why the system was made the way it is, I would assume it's because they want their (at the time) awesome-looking animation to play fully instead of being interrupted by your character taking another swing.

For the time being... my fellow rune fencers, I strongly suggest popping a rune just before using a WS or spell. Stacking these things together seems to minimize the impact that animation delay holds on your character.

We've been asking for the removal of the "soft" delay period since these forums were born and never have gotten a response so!


I asked for the removal of only a subset of JAs in hopes that a more conservative request might at least get a slap on the wrist from Camate!

(I asked for only the removal of soft delay from job abilities designed to be used at high frequency)


Also if you use any long-animation ability in battle (chocobo jig for example) you'll notice that you actually start hitting the mob again before the animation ends so I doubt that's the case

I also indirectly mention why the "stacking" effect occurs since you can execute another job ability or weapon skill - or start casting a spell - during the "soft delay" period (just not swing for some reason)