Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

[Snaplin]

I am curious, Is there any plans for paladin's? With the release of Abyssea, Paladin has been shelved and it seems every job is getting a boost making there damage output stronger or jobs like monk and ninja more versatile in tanking situations thus making the role of paladins being able to keep steady hate or a useful job almost non-existent...

We have received job abilities like Divine emblem and some really cool spells like phalanx but still nothing major to keep up with the current change of the game.

[Orson]

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.

[Snaplin]

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.

Very true, I mean there are some way's to work around that, maybe raising the emn. cap, Making cover more usefull and letting you cover anyone in ally, adding spells like "Flash 2" lower recast then flash and generates more hate... There are a few "tweaks" they could implement to work well but I think at this point its more of a "Wait and see". I have to say though I don't have any complaint's when I get to tank NM's on warrior because of constant 5-6k ukko's furry :)

[Darkshade]

It would be nice of the enmity ceiling could be raised for PLD along with damage dealing capability.

[Kuiper3]

I believe having an ability that is similar to Accomplice would be amazing. Even if cover was augmented into taking a party members hate. Another awesome ability would be something similar to Migawari, but would allow paladins to absorb the next attack. Maybe even increase the absorb rate and allow absorbed dmg to count as cured hate.

At the moment, nothing is worse than seeing PLD being made fun of.

[Kuraudo]

All of these suggestions sound great. Especially a cover tweak. I hate the fact that I can only cover my party members and no one else in my alliance. Not only that but it doesn't last long enough even with merits.

[hiko]

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without one

[Mustakrakish]

To a somewhat related point, I believe PLD should have its own NATIVE Provoke. All other jobs are getting traits and such (dual wield anyone) that normally required a subclass just for that. A paladin is a tank, meant to be a tank, and should be a tank, so why not give it the ability it needs to do its job and open up other subjob opportunities.

[Yukichibi]

It's hard to make it like: if you have a pld it's easier, but you can do it without it if you want.
Because if you need a PLD for everything, the game will become somewhat static.
The other side is, why taking a pld, even if he holds hate, when you can have a mnk or a war, which can keep hate, deals tons of damage, and you can bomb cure it.
I like PLD, it's my first job i leveled 75, but inside abyssea PLD is dead, let's see if there is something outside abyssea coming.

[Elonial]

Paladin being my only job at 90, it's somewhat depressing /shouting for a THF or NIN tank for Abyssea.

[Arcon]

Augmenting the Cover effect sounds great to me, especially cause I'm probably the only PLD in the history of FFXI who has it fully merited \o/

That aside, raising enmity cap for PLD may not be the smartest idea, since once they're over cap, they would stay there and it would make it impossible for other jobs to take hate, unless the PLD takes massive damage. Sure, that would solidify a PLDs role as a tank, but maybe make it a bit overpowered. I guess it depends on how much they increase the cap, if they do. Just a bit too much, and it would be overpowered, not enough and constant hitters, like MNK or dual wielders, would get hate back all the time, making the mob spin like a dreidel.

[rog]

That aside, raising enmity cap for PLD may not be the smartest idea, since once they're over cap, they would stay there and it would make it impossible for other jobs to take hate, unless the PLD takes massive damage. Sure, that would solidify a PLDs role as a tank, but maybe make it a bit overpowered.Eh, not really. Holding hate isn't a problem now for any dd job. Not being able to easily flip the mob around would actually be a nerf for pld, as they would only hold hate slightly better, and would have a much harder time in an emergency.

[GERM]

I agree with all of you on this, My PLD has done nothing but sat on the sideline since abyssea and with the increase of skill caps a NIN or THF can blink tank outside of abyssea on most things. Natural voke is something long over due and even an ability that absorbs damage like suggested would increase the use of a PLD over a MNK in some cases especially if the proc rate would be improved but to get it high enough to match a MNK HP would almost be unfair.. Now maybe a 3 minute ability that lasts for 1.5 minutes that has an ability to resist damage based on enmity or like someone mentioned Accomplish but an AoE version would be nice to see. PLD needs an increase rate of damage to pull hate off a mnk or war. Decreased Natural enmity decay traits or simplified everything Ive said a job traits that redirects enmity of party to the PLD just because its in an alliance.

[rog]

Anything involving hate will not fix the problems pld has. Any job, including pld, can easily reach, and maintain the enmity cap.d Pld's problem is that it is redundant, and inferior in all ways to other jobs.

[Kurai-Akuba]

Ya PLD was my first 75 and second job to 90. @Mustakrakish yes!! I had the same conversation yesterday, PLD needs it's own provoke. Either a "Provoke 2" with super EMN gain or an "Accomplice" type ability with similar amounts of EMN gain.
The cover ability should also be area specific in my opinion (maybe Cover 2) to actually cover any party member or possibly alliance standing behind the PLD.
People are also saying here that PLD is only a tank actually that's how you perceive it from the way it's been played in the past, it doesn't always have to be that way. Many years ago Warriors were considered tanks. Maybe they should look at increasing damage effectiveness in parties, making it more of a holy knight. Not as much DD as traditional DD jobs but enough to keep up, and healing party members at the same time. Just my thoughts anyway, could be a way to get PLD back into parties :P

[azjazo]

Ya PLD was my first 75 and second job to 90. @Mustakrakish yes!! I had the same conversation yesterday, PLD needs it's own provoke. Either a "Provoke 2" with super EMN gain or an "Accomplice" type ability with similar amounts of EMN gain.
The cover ability should also be area specific in my opinion (maybe Cover 2) to actually cover any party member or possibly alliance standing behind the PLD.
People are also saying here that PLD is only a tank actually that's how you perceive it from the way it's been played in the past, it doesn't always have to be that way. Many years ago Warriors were considered tanks. Maybe they should look at increasing damage effectiveness in parties, making it more of a holy knight. Not as much DD as traditional DD jobs but enough to keep up, and healing party members at the same time. Just my thoughts anyway, could be a way to get PLD back into parties :P

You sir hitted the spot, increasing PLD damage output and light spells focus and giving it a native provoke would certanly put us back in the spotlight

Tho, in terms of balance, DRK (as the counterpart of PLD) should recive more damage mitigation means, as they also use the heaviest armor in the game.

Making PLD and DRK the oposite side of spectrum on frontline spellcasters, DRK focused on DD but can sustain damage and PLD focused on sustaining damage but capable of deal damage

[Lutschfactor]

ok, first of all. lets use the jobs in this game as to how they were ment to be used. second. yes u can have a mnk or war keep hate with cure bombs. thats not how this game was ment to be played. if u want to play this game that way. i suggest u go to WOW and play a real kids game. Abyssea isnt ment for an alliance of 8-10 mnk and wars and the rest whms to cure bomb on the hardest NMs in the game so far. can it be done, yes. are u a good group that can do that. no u have no skill at this game what so ever. have a real group of people who use the jobs for how they were ment do have a rough time on mobs like raja and others that you need to do certain things when they are casting spells or doing JA. this game is metn to make u think on how to beat these mobs..no just zerg it all down. yes pld needs a heavy upgrade. doesnt matter if u have relics or Empyrean weapons. and last as to pld being dead inside abyssea. ask mnks why they get 1 shotted for 3k plus damage on ga4? but yet when i get hit with that 600-700 if i dont put on magic damage down? so as to our LS and how we do the game the real way, pld is no where near dead

[Garota]

I've seen Paladins hold hate VERY efficiently, I don't think there's any issue with PLD keeping hate... That is, until the enmity reset abilities that a lot of monsters tend to have...

[rog]

increasing PLD damage output and light spells focus and giving it a native provoke would certanly put us back in the spotlightBut it wouldn't. Provoke it entirely useless, since 1-2 good weapon skills will cap your hate anyway. The only thing that would help pld is increased DD ability. Increased to the point that it's one of the best dds. I'm afraid there's no chance of that happening.


ok, first of all. lets use the jobs in this game as to how they were ment to be used. second. yes u can have a mnk or war keep hate with cure bombs. thats not how this game was ment to be played. if u want to play this game that way.It doesn't matter how it was meant to be played. Like it or not, that's currently the best way to play.

[Zephrose]

I too believe Pld has taken a hit in the game, in general. However; I am persistent with my Pld, regardless of what others may say about the job.

I have been finding myself more and more useful in abyssea with my linkshell friends when it comes to farming for keyitems. As Pld we have access to a lot of useful weapon skills. One of which is hard to find unless you have a War(Obviously having access to all weapon skills aside from near eastern jobs).

As for damage, I believe in abyssea it's all about the right atmas you possess and use. My usual set of atmas consists of VV+RR+GH. This is straight TP gain and crit hit %. With these atmas on I find myself taking hate over my Nin counter part during our battles and also contributing to a good chunk of the monsters health.

I do believe Pld is not balanced anymore. Healing spells do not generate the same enmity anymore. Damage outside of abyssea is below par. And the constant ability to grab the monsters attention off a fellow character is just down right impossible if they are doing massive damage.

I like the idea of a cover tweak. I also believe that some ability times would be best if shortened. Playing on Nin, I have gotten a feel for Yonin/Innin and would like to see something similar on Pld. Also, as players HP grows Pld cures become less and less useful.

Ideas :
Templar - Duration 3mins - Recast 3mins
Lowers damage(-Attack by 10-15%?)
Raises enmity cap or Spikes enmity(Similar to Sentinel) for the Pld.
Raises cure potency by 15-20%

Crusader - Duration 3mins - Recast 3mins
Lowers block rate and/or defense. (-10-25%?)
lowers cure potency by 25-40%.
Raises Attack speed. (Does not stack with Hasso)
Raises Attack power. (+attack 10-25%)

Obviously these are just ideas and are welcome to criticism.

[Registeel]

All of these suggestions sound great. Especially a cover tweak. I hate the fact that I can only cover my party members and no one else in my alliance. Not only that but it doesn't last long enough even with merits.
I hear you on that. What also grinds my gears is how a lot of the time, people don't let me Cover them. Either they refuse to back up from being up on the mob's skin, or run away when I step in front of them. Trying to explain how Cover works can run into problems with language barriers and people who don't understand PLD abilities. But eh, minor complaints.

I too am hopeful for there being more exciting opportunities for us PLD enthusiasts in the near future.

[rog]

As for damage, I believe in abyssea it's all about the right atmas you possess and use. My usual set of atmas consists of VV+RR+GH. This is straight TP gain and crit hit %. With these atmas on I find myself taking hate over my Nin counter part during our battles and also contributing to a good chunk of the monsters health. Of course pld can definitely put out some decent damage. However so can every other job, from war to whm (in fact i'd bet a good whm would beat a pld by a large margin). There's nothing special about being a middle of the road dd.

[Zephrose]

Of course pld can definitely put out some decent damage. However so can every other job, from war to whm (in fact i'd bet a good whm would beat a pld by a large margin). There's nothing special about being a middle of the road dd.

Im sure a Whm could front some great damage. I don't believe it could beat a properly geared DD Pld if set next to each other. Gear would be the defining point in that.

As most people play Pld, they believe they have to set themselves in "Pld related only" gear. There is loads of gear out there that can push a Pld up to be a proper DD. It does however take away from them tanking effectively(Less defense, usually no shield, etc).

It's all in the way you play/gear the job really. As for where it stands now, I agree that no one likes to be the middle guy. That is why Pld needs to find it's role again. As of right now, we're the middle or below middle guy when it comes to large group events or gatherings. In a small group(2-6ppl), we can get the job done well enough. Usually with less casualties. :D

I find more DDs are unprepared to take a hit if looked at by the mob, making them more of an MP/healer sponge.

[rog]

I find more DDs are unprepared to take a hit if looked at by the mob, making them more of an MP/healer sponge. While this used to be a concern, it really isn't anymore. Healers have essentially infinite mp. Taking 600 damage per hit, and doing nothing to stop it is just fine. It's not a big deal if a mage needs to throw a cure 5 repeatedly as fast as the recast will allow. They have plenty of mp to do so.

[Aeonk]

Personally, I don't think that PLD is completely incapable of fulfilling it's original role in a group. It's still a safer option for tanking against harder things like Rani or Apademak. As for the issue of holding hate against others... you have to go the DD route to do it.

Not much has changed from Atonement style tanking, except now it's not nearly as effective as it was before (being that atonement now only deals half dmg and monsters die too quickly for enmity to be built quickly.)
A PLD with Almace will still be tanking right alongside any MNK or NIN (even empyrean ones), because of that hate cap. With an Almace you can hit the hate cap relatively at the same time a NIN or MNK can, from there you're cotanking the rest of the fight.
The problem with that, is that it's pretty harsh that you're required to get an empyrean just to perform your original role to an adequate level. So at this point, even though PLD can still work, any help it can get won't be turned away.

just my 2 cents.

[rog]

Personally, I don't think that PLD is completely incapable of fulfilling it's original role in a group. It's still a safer option for tanking against harder things like Rani or Apademak. As for the issue of holding hate against others... you have to go the DD route to do it.
I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise. Pld can perform their roll to an average ability. However their original roll is pointless, and their "new" roll (dding) is only middle of the road, and easily beaten.

[Aeonk]

I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise. Pld can perform their roll to an average ability. However their original roll is pointless, and their "new" roll (dding) is only middle of the road, and easily beaten.
I wouldn't say easily beaten. Vorpal blade's a great WS. Better than some weapon options (like Scythe or Great Sword.) You just can't use "Turtle" atma's if you wanna keep up.

[rog]

I wouldn't say easily beaten. Vorpal blade's a great WS. Better than some weapon options (like Scythe or Great Sword.) You just can't use "Turtle" atma's if you wanna keep up.
Sure, pld can beat drk, but that's one of the few jobs worse than pld.

Like i've said, pld can definitely keep up with a number of other jobs. However when compared to jobs like war, mnk, sam, etc, it simply falls too far behind.

It's unfortunate that jobs like pld, drk, rdm (to a lesser extent), etc aren't very useful, but that is the reality of the situation.

[deathgod]

who cares if raising pld enmity cap Overpowers pld in that way they broke mnk thf and nin already may as well do this too

[Zumi]

In most other MMOs they don't really have a cap on hate. If fact the tank usually is able to get abound 50% above everyone else on the hate table.

Its just the way FFXI works, there's no real bosses that can kill non tank classes, that make it necessary to even have a tank. If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

[rog]

If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.
I still don't see how they would do that.

[Duelle]

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without oneThe only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

[Zephrose]

In most other MMOs they don't really have a cap on hate. If fact the tank usually is able to get abound 50% above everyone else on the hate table.

Its just the way FFXI works, there's no real bosses that can kill non tank classes, that make it necessary to even have a tank. If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

You just reminded me of the old days.

*Sam goes into SC on Tiamat*
Sam: OK guys! FRAG INC!!!
Tiamat: Oh hello Mr. Sam. Say hello to my hidden counter.
*Sam die unexpectedly*
Sam: WHAT KILLED ME!? I didnt even see any damage. <,<;;

*Tiamat snickers under her breath*
Taimat: Go go Double Attack Might Strikes!

Ahh, The good ol'days of HNMs. lol Alas, those days are over now. Most of those old NMs are novelty now. As much as people hate Khimiara, I enjoyed the battle everytime I was up to tank.

[rog]

The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.
No, it's because whms have infinite mp, and can spam cure5 for longer than the mob can attack. Not even nins should be wasting time casting utsu more often than not.


Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though. Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.

[Attilas]

Paladin should not receive additional attack power. Giving attack, heals and defense to one class will make it overpowered.

Paladin need to be able to mitigate damage and control fights. This is where SE need to work to get it right and some really good Ideas from peoples could make Paladin better at those two:

- Lower Cover recast to <1 mins with merit and grant a Enmity sharing or transfer with the protected player.
- Lower Shield bash to <1 mins with merit and grant an enmity similar to flash.
- Give another second hate class ability like flash/provoke. 30-40 seconds to give more controls.
- Shield to mitigate more damage. Compared to Evasion and Counter, Shield is shy...
- Shield proc rate to be augmented at 80% (rather than 65%). This to proc as good as Evasion matching lower Hit rate of 20%.
- Raise native defense/VIT (Make it usefull) of Paladin. Paladin get +60 defense and Thief +60 Evasion. 60 Evasion is way more usefull than 60 Defense. Make it +180 defense.

But even if paladin receive some buff we simply can't avoid the fact that most DD/NIN are way to good to avoid damage. I remember even before Abyssea to see mostly DD/NIN.

Just imagine each class, one by one without /NIN and see how everything come back to normal !!! Samurai co-tank use Third Eye and Monk use counter. Thief getting lucky at avoiding hits. Unfortunatly its hard to nerf something that so good and most people would not like to loose so much. I do use it myself way to often as PLD/NIN, BLU/NIN and DRG/NIN But...

Utsusemi : Ni give 4 shadows to NIN and 3 shadows to /NIN
Utsusemi : Ichi give 3 shadows to NIN but still give 3 shadows to /NIN

I think Ichi should only give /NIN 2 shadows to make it more occasionaly usefull considering the casting time... It could be a logical nerf that should have been done from begining...

[rog]

/nin definitely is not the issue. Hardly anyone uses it anymore, except for soloists, and wars, which is only for the procs, not utsu.

[Duelle]

Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.Well, for one it might help with itemization. PLD AF sets all have some boosters to emnity. They've also valued it on gear despite the fact that tanks generally should have a way to inherently generate more hate than the other members of the party. I guess it would go in hand with reitemizing certain gear wearable by PLDs in exchange for increased baseline emnity pre-merits, which I realize is something of a pipe dream.

The alternative is to add something to inherently decreases emnity lost per hit while equiping a shield (could toss in some passive damage reduction, as survivability is supposed to notably increase just from equipping the shield itself). The defender clone idea I mentioned could be changed to match that purpose. I know that might create something odd when combined with all the -physical damage taken stats on gear we've been seeing as of late, but it could be a start. The idea is to make them beneficial to the group without making them absolutely required.

[Attilas]

/nin definitely is not the issue. Hardly anyone uses it anymore, except for soloists, and wars, which is only for the procs, not utsu.

Still think that if you want to tank something you need to /NIN to make it work whatever you are in a ally, party or solo. Rare sub job can give you that much survability without reducing main class damage. /DNC still give real good survability but at the expense of TP wish reduce damage output.

I agree in Abyssea most people tend to sub something else mainly because most fight again NM usualy consist of some tank either NIN/ or /NIN and DD that doesn't hit the NM since we don't want to generate TP. There is not much situation I can see a Abyssea Tank not involving shadows. Unless they kite or special tricky AOE NM.

I still think /NIN is giving too much and I still think its one of the most used sub job actualy for tank and DD jobs.

[rog]

Still think that if you want to tank something you need to /NIN to make it work whatever you are in a ally, party or solo. Rare sub job can give you that much survability without reducing main class damage. /DNC still give real good survability but at the expense of TP wish reduce damage output.

I agree in Abyssea most people tend to sub something else mainly because most fight again NM usualy consist of some tank either NIN/ or /NIN and DD that doesn't hit the NM since we don't want to generate TP. There is not much situation I can see a Abyssea Tank not involving shadows. Unless they kite or special tricky AOE NM.

I still think /NIN is giving too much and I still think its one of the most used sub job actualy for tank and DD jobs.
mnk/sam tanks really. I don't know why you need /nin when whms have infinite mp to spam cures.

[Attilas]

mnk/sam tanks really. I don't know why you need /nin when whms have infinite mp to spam cures.

I understand it can work as mnk/sam. But let see a MNK again NM like Rani. Im pretty sure you agree with me that MNK/NIN will outperform MNK/SAM in term of "taking less damage as possible".

There is some interesting combination out there. But up to now I have completed all abyssea zone and Cacturae and all tanks was using shadows. I doupt, but I can be wrong, that it could run as smooth if no one in the entire alliance was using shadows.

MNK/NIN and NIN/WAR tank NM in Abyssea. Other possibilities exist both they are the most efficient.

[Raesvelg]

I still don't see how they would do that.

Either give PLD some form of -damage taken ability, or simply adjust the way defense works against damage. Right now, stacking defense has very limited utility after a certain level, when you get right down to it. Adjust it so that having a substantial defense stat (and probably giving PLD more Def Bonus traits) makes it so that the new monsters of endgame don't utterly destroy you, and you'd give PLD a reason to be played again.

It's possible, but you'd have to do some fairly serious work to make it worth taking PLD on a regular basis again unless you give PLD the ability to gain and hold hate in excess of any other job in the game.

[Kirth]

First of all, it's great to see positive posts and constructive ideas being thrown around. PLD definitely needs an overhaul in the coming major updates.

Thinks I'd like to see:
- A damage mitigation trait, starting from Level10 and increasing much like the Defense Bonus trait does. It should reduce damage (both magical and physical) by a percentage. This wouldn't require the devs to rework defense or Vitality stats (if they haven't done it by now, I doubt they ever will).

- A+ rank in defensive skills like Parry and Evasion. If Paladins are described as "masters of defense", they should have higher defensive combat skill ratings. This would allow more damage mitigation from physical attacks.

- Increased damage dealt from single handed weapons. Currently, MNKs, SAMs, NINs and WARs tank. They tank because they're pushing DPS numbers like never before. They're going to have hate. An increase in damage dealt by Paladins should work in synergy with other proposed updates and changes, and not knock current DDs off their pedestals, but why put a Paladin in a group if they're not contributing respectable DPS to fights when another class can both out-DPS and out-tank them?

- Improved shield damage mitigation and block rate. Again, more mitigation from incoming damage. If they're not going to out-DPS DD classes, PLD should be most adept at survivability and damage reduction.

- Reduced DD survivability. If /NIN blink tanking really is falling by the wayside, let's nerf Utsusemi for /NIN, while maintaining its full strength for NIN main, thus reducing incentive for DD jobs to sub it and maintaining NINs viable tanking role.

- Increase the hate cap, give Paladin a native 'Provoke'. Something that not only pushes VE/CE values, but also, for a few seconds, forces the mob to focus on the PLD only, despite hate levels.

[Alturen]

Great to see all kinds of constructive ideas to bring Paladins forward. I'm thankful for it being my primary job as I'm a career paladin that is on the verge of cancelling my subscription once again. The current direction the game is going in leans towards quick fights, high damage, DD's that can tank with incredible abilities and the like.

If anything, the Paladins could use a complete overhaul in terms of 'damage mitigation'.

Throw it out the window and convert us to Holy Knights. Damage mitigation is a thing of the past and we need to move forward with that in mind. We are in an age where it doesn't matter how much damage we mitigate, rather, how much damage we deal to make the fight as short as possible.

I'm looking forward to any sort of change for Paladins, as I can't do much with sub samurai at this point for my Great Sword. It's basically brought me next to nowhere near the damage output of even the lightest of DD classes. I'm a rather decent hybrid and I'd like to think that I did well in trying to adapt, but my subscription's pretty much on its way of being permanently cancelled with my spouse who is a career white mage.

Thank you again, and I look forward to seeing the discussion progress.

Great ideas, keep 'em coming!

-Alt

[rog]

I understand it can work as mnk/sam. But let see a MNK again NM like Rani. Im pretty sure you agree with me that MNK/NIN will outperform MNK/SAM in term of "taking less damage as possible".

There is some interesting combination out there. But up to now I have completed all abyssea zone and Cacturae and all tanks was using shadows. I doupt, but I can be wrong, that it could run as smooth if no one in the entire alliance was using shadows.

MNK/NIN and NIN/WAR tank NM in Abyssea. Other possibilities exist both they are the most efficient.The goal isn't to take the least amount of damage though. The goal is to do the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of time. /nin is useless for such a goal. A curebot whm with infinite mp is all the defense that is needed in almost all cases.

I don't know how to fix pld, but increasing their enmity generation, or damage mitigation is definitely not the way. Neither of those things are important right now. If they were, we wouldn't see nins that don't bother casting utsu, because it's a waste of time, or dds that don't even have a macro for third eye, let alone seigan. A single whm can easily keep just about anyone alive, so it doesn't make much sense to waste a party slot on a job dedicated to taking less damage.

[Kirth]

The goal isn't to take the least amount of damage though. The goal is to do the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of time. /nin is useless for such a goal. A curebot whm with infinite mp is all the defense that is needed in almost all cases.

I don't know how to fix pld, but increasing their enmity generation, or damage mitigation is definitely not the way. Neither of those things are important right now. If they were, we wouldn't see nins that don't bother casting utsu, because it's a waste of time, or dds that don't even have a macro for third eye, let alone seigan. A single whm can easily keep just about anyone alive, so it doesn't make much sense to waste a party slot on a job dedicated to taking less damage.

If the rest of FFXI's life is spent in Abyssea, then yeah, this is the case. However, if new content is going to take place outside of Abyssea's environments and gameplay systems, then yeah, we'll need to define tank roles a lot better. The solution to this issue wouldn't come from just increasing mitigation, hate or damage output. It's going to take a lot of different changes to secure PLDs future in-game.

[rog]

If the rest of FFXI's life is spent in Abyssea, then yeah, this is the case. However, if new content is going to take place outside of Abyssea's environments and gameplay systems, then yeah, we'll need to define tank roles a lot better. The solution to this issue wouldn't come from just increasing mitigation, hate or damage output. It's going to take a lot of different changes to secure PLDs future in-game.Unfortunately, this is still a tricky situation, as simply subbing nin will always more than accommodate the lack abyssea buffs, allowing dds to still easily tank anything.

Most other jobs can be fixed pretty easily, but pld definitely is not one of them. I've yet to see any viable solutions that might put pld into the spotlight, and i am unable to come up with one myself either. The job simply tends to be redundant, and offer nothing over what other jobs can do. It seems like the only thing that could make pld desireable over mnk, nin, war, etc would be improving pld's dd capabilities to the point that it can keep up with those jobs. And given its defensive nature, i'm not sure that is the right solution.

[Pellucid]

I definitely don't think they should give PLD more DD ability etc., but I kinda like the idea of giving it more evasion. If you gave it high evasion, it'd be able to tank all the stuff NIN and MNK can tank, and everything they can't also =P Of course you should also add harder mobs post 90 since there are so many things that can be done without PLD already ><

[Rambus]

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.
Pretty much this, PLD is in a tight spot. really not fair for PLD in the game atm. looking say at 2005 then now PLD got almost nothing compared to what melee got in damage buffs.

Unless a PLD has Empyrean sword or both sword and sheild, PLD does not belong in abyssea.

[Yukichibi]

Cover the entire party is ridiculous, bescause you ll lose massive amount of enmity with all those damage in your face.

In Abyssea /nin is almost useless when tanking, because you waste time where you could have make some damage instead.

Outside abyssea, /nin killed pld a long ago, it's better to take no damage than less damage.

The point is to not make PLD mandatory, but useful:


For example you could make PLD immune to enmity reset, so you want them for NM's that reset hate, but it's still doable without them.
Shield block can augment enmity rather than decrease it like all damage.
Or simply the paladin gains enmity when taking physical damage, and still lose it when taking magical damage.

[Wade]

I haven't played PLD in Aby, haven't really done much of anything in aby for that matter, but I have a question. Is a PLD using a Greatsword not useful in Aby? It would do more damage plus can act as a support healer up front. Just a thought.

[Zetonegi]

As Rambus and the person he quoted mentioned, PLDs been dieing. Abyssea was just the last nail in the coffin.

What really kept PLD alive was the fact that PLD has survivability on its side. Even subbing NIN, PLD had better survivability than most DD jobs. The reason abyssea 'killed' PLD is that with abyssea every job gained huge survivability bonuses. While PLD also gained these it lost some as well. Specifically the ability to cure itself. Yes, it still has cures but a 400HP cure when you have 4000 HP doesn't cut it.

So what can we give to help it stand out above the DD tanks.

1st) Resistance to Doom and Death. And not a poor job ability like Fealty or gimpy resistances like Resist Sleep but actual solid resistances to the two effects.

The only thing that can really kill someone in abyssea are these two things. Anything else a white mage can easily keep up with cures on the main tank.

The next three all have to do with enmity

2nd) Give more and better hate abilities/spells.

3rd) Immunity or high resistance to hate resets/less hate loss in general.

4th) Higher enmity cap for PLD.

[Yukichibi]

1st) Resistance to Doom and Death. And not a poor job ability like Fealty or gimpy resistances like Resist Sleep but actual solid resistances to the two effects.


Nice one, never thought of that, it's a fact that when SE want us to struggle they give NM's doom or death, but if cursna could remove doom 100% of the times it wouldn't be an issue. (already saw 22 attempts holy water + cursna failled)

[Lutschfactor]

Pretty much this, PLD is in a tight spot. really not fair for PLD in the game atm. looking say at 2005 then now PLD got almost nothing compared to what melee got in damage buffs.

Unless a PLD has Empyrean sword or both sword and sheild, PLD does not belong in abyssea.

Rambus, we r on the same server. true i have an aegis, but not an emp or exc..yet. that shield. no one gives credit for. like i said b4. its funny to watch DD take 3k to thunder5 and what not. yet when i sit there laugh coz im getting 600-700. rambus ur more then welcome to come in to our even and watch and see how well we use pld and why its used so well. we are a small shell since iwe got all of the drama people out. we might have 2 full pts plus 2 if we r lucky for all events. we get it done. we get it done right.


Either give PLD some form of -damage taken ability, or simply adjust the way defense works against damage. Right now, stacking defense has very limited utility after a certain level, when you get right down to it. Adjust it so that having a substantial defense stat (and probably giving PLD more Def Bonus traits) makes it so that the new monsters of endgame don't utterly destroy you, and you'd give PLD a reason to be played again.

It's possible, but you'd have to do some fairly serious work to make it worth taking PLD on a regular basis again unless you give PLD the ability to gain and hold hate in excess of any other job in the game.

and to raesvelg. pld does not need damage down abalities. inside abyssea or not. the +2 is all win anywhere. yes, its a small amount that u get back. but combine that with shield and sanguin blade there isnt much room for a whm to to watch u much. granted i do not know what its like against HNM's for i have never fought one. never joined a shell. but during dyna and abyssea with my pld, whms dont have to watch me much. now of course there are those times where everyone gets into a bind, but most of the time plds r fine on thier own now. hate really needs to be adjusted. its horrible when you can voke flash shield bash for 5 mins and a sam comes in and gekkos and its all over for hate. its abvious the japs love sam. who doesnt. everyone who is posting for the pld thread is bringing up really good points for it and against it. personally. pld will never die. in a few hrs from this post i will be on VNM's for almace so maybe another month or so and i can come back and comment if its worth it or not. to get almace. i have not been reading those threads much but i hear u can reach 4k damage. we will see. maybe thats all the hate pld will need right there. but yet the trials are so tedious on all the weapons. but this isnt a kids game so things need to be tedious and hard.

[hiko]

I haven't played PLD in Aby, haven't really done much of anything in aby for that matter, but I have a question. Is a PLD using a Greatsword not useful in Aby? It would do more damage plus can act as a support healer up front. Just a thought.

oa4 GS spaming herculan slash with beyond SB GC might be the higher dmg combo,

[Dracoth]

I've often thought that one thing that would work really well would be to raise PLD's VE cap. I personally think that giving PLD a trait that raised the VE cap by 500 for every 15 levels would work out nicely. At 90, you'd have a cap of 13000 VE. This would allow a PLD to have a higher threshold then everyone else and they'd have to work at that threshold. The benefit to this? DD's could go apeshit with their attacks without worrying about pulling hate.

To counter the obvious benefits of PLD's having a higher VE threshold (and the reason I targeted VE and not CE), the trait could also tier the VE reduction. When a PLD is in the first tier, they'd lose an additional 25 VE (85 total). In the second tier (10500-11000), they would lose an additional 25 (so 110 total). And so on. Thus, while they could maintain more VE then others, they'd still rely on CE as the core with VE as the spikes, allowing a PLD who was working hard at it to maintain hate.

You'd still be able to use a MNK and cure bomb. You could still evasion tank on THF or NIN. But, when you want the mob planted on someone, you could use a PLD and then let everyone go all out.

[rog]

Rambus, we r on the same server. true i have an aegis, but not an emp or exc..yet. that shield. no one gives credit for. like i said b4. its funny to watch DD take 3k to thunder5 and what not. yet when i sit there laugh coz im getting 600-700.
That sounds like crappy dds, that need to get an mdt set.

[Attilas]

I've often thought that one thing that would work really well would be to raise PLD's VE cap. I personally think that giving PLD a trait that raised the VE cap by 500 for every 15 levels would work out nicely. At 90, you'd have a cap of 13000 VE. This would allow a PLD to have a higher threshold then everyone else and they'd have to work at that threshold. The benefit to this? DD's could go apeshit with their attacks without worrying about pulling hate.

Don't you think giving the ability to "lock" ennemy on Paladin is a little bit exploitable and will lead to ungly way of killing enemies ??? A quick idea that come to my mind is a Paladin wich all abilities are ready that could easily stay over 10001 VE/CE for around 1 minutes giving the oportunities for 3 full party of mage to nuke until no MP left then sit down as they know their VE will get down and Paladin will keep it "locked" on him.

This sounds like a cheat for me. One and only one Paladin should not be able to force enemies to ignore 3 parties of powerfull damage dealer...

[Dracoth]

CE isn't locked or capped. It's only built off VE. If VE decays at a fast enough rate, it won't matter. The problem is, if PLD doesn't have SOME advantage in the cap, then it's only ever going to get traded around. So, yes, I think the PLD should have some ability to break the cap. It won't stay at 10001, anyway, since VE always decays and taking damage reduces CE. With 3000 extra VE, sure, it'd keep it locked on PLD all the time. Maybe a compromise can be reached: Lower the cap on CE and raise the cap on VE for PLD. Make it so that PLD can still exceed the cap of everyone else, but make it more finicky. People would still have to watch the hate line, but PLD could essentially lock it for brief periods of time.

Another idea: make it so that when PLD breaks the VE cap, they can't gain more VE until it drops below the cap. Thus, while they can lock it, they can't maintain the lock.

Or, put an ability (5 minute timer, 30 second duration) that lets them break the cap during the duration.

As it stands, there's absolutely no reason for anyone to bring a PLD other than the fact that someone wants to come as a PLD. My BLU tanks better than my PLD. And part of that is because PLD adds very little that isn't covered by other specialized jobs. What has PLD done well? Tanked, especially effective if using DD gear, with the ability to heal themselves. So, they add some mob control (which is ruined because of the hate cap), some healing (which they're lackluster at best at), and some DD (which they can easily be outclassed). We don't really need to add much in terms of healing. Adding DD won't fix any problems but would make us more desirable by others, but it doesn't fit in with what I feel is the theme of PLD in XI. Increasing healing is futile as RDM and SCH are being passed over - if they gave us enough to pass them, there would be riots. The only other alternative is to give us some incentive in the maintaining hate category.

[Lutschfactor]

rog..just dont talk

[rog]

rog..just dont talk
Sorry, but it's true. I've got -50% mdt on war, which is exactly what you have with your shiny aegis. It's really not hard to cap mdt.

[Fishspawn]

I had some ideas for how to change paladin and give it some new life. Some of these abilities may seem overpowered by I don't think any of them are out of the scope of the current climate of the game. Anyway, here is the list of my ideas:

Existing Abilities

Cover - Recast Shortened 1:30
Effect Lasts for 30 sec, no limit to number of hits.

Shield Bash - Damage should scale with level of shield skill - 300+ damage at lv 90

Rampart - Rather than defense this should give a + % to overall Damage Reduction for the party. The recast should be shortened to 3:00

Divine Emblem - This should make flash AOE in addition to the enmity buff. Recast should be 5:00

Fealty - This should also remove a status effect upon casting.

Enlight - This should have additional effect: Flash at a 10% proc rate.

Paladin Should gain access to: Curaga I-IV, Blink, Re-Raise


New Spells:

Reflect: Cost - 150 MP, Recast - 3:00
Prevents the next spell directed at you and returns it to the caster.

Flash II: Cost - 75MP, Recast - 0:50
Double Potency Flash

New Job Abilities:

Knight (DD Stance) Recast time: 3:00, Duration 10:00
+10% Accuracy, +10% Weaponskill Damage, +10% Haste
Reduces recast for Shield Bash and Rampart by half.
Spells cost 100% more MP.

Templar (Support Caster Stance) Recast time: 3:00, Duration 10:00
+10% magic effectiveness, +10% Fast Cast, + 10 Conserve MP
Grants bonus to Reprisal - Shield blocks can prevent magic damage.
30% delay penalty on weapons.

Joust - Recast time 2:00, Duration 2:00
Increase movement speed by 25% until a target is attacked; next attack is doubled.

Job Traits:

Champion - Allows you to equip a shield while using a two handed weapon. (limited to Size 1-2 shields)

Enmity Bonus - When the player is not being targeted by the mob, they are granted an enmity bonus. (This would tier like defense bonus starting at 10 and going up to 60)

[Snaplin]

I haven't played PLD in Aby, haven't really done much of anything in aby for that matter, but I have a question. Is a PLD using a Greatsword not useful in Aby? It would do more damage plus can act as a support healer up front. Just a thought.

Get out....


Sorry, but it's true. I've got -50% mdt on war, which is exactly what you have with your shiny aegis. It's really not hard to cap mdt.

He's absolutely correct you can cap MDT with shell 5 and Aegis so SE adding more MDT to Aegis is useless, even my Aegis/Excalibur pld is shelved... I have a Ukonvasara and the hate I generate is fucking stupid. I have a MDT and a PDT set and I usually end up tanking shit with ease /sam. Rog is completely correct on his previous statement whm have a stupid amount of MP and can cure bomb the fuck out of any DD.

Now as to outside abyssea... the situation changes. My LS (when bored as fuck) will occasionally go out and fuck with Cerberus/Khim/ the occasional 1 min Nidhogg and after being used to god mode in abyssea its a shock when you see your whm low on MP lol and IF pld makes any sort of comeback it will be outside abyssea imo, all depends on what SE has on the table for jobs and new content.

I have to say I am really surprised about some of the ideas/responses In this thread as I assumed it would be full of post by users who are apart of the cookie cutter pld group... (Full Pearle gear and some shitty AH/BQ rings.)

[Chibisawa]

The fix for PLD...in fact the ONLY way to fix PLD is better damage. So what if PLD wasn't meant to be a DD? Was every DD job in the game intended to be a tank? I would guess not. If PLD is made 3/4 the DD that say, WAR is AND it has it's hate-gaining abilities, damage-mitigation abilities and it's cures, then it will have a place as a luxury job. There will be nothing a PLD is needed for but a good PLD can make it go easier. All they would need to do is up PLD's native attack-the job already has plenty of STR-and make it's DEX less suckage. That and a decent offensive /JA and PLD would be worth having again, Almace or not.

It really is a simple fix.

[Dracoth]

That doesn't give us anything, though. We want something that lets us STAY as the "premier tank." Not just improved offensive capacity. And, hate to say it, but 3/4th's of the DD of WAR isn't going to make us a luxury job. You're still out done by a WAR. You're outhealed by a WHM. And you're outtanked by a WAR+WHM or MNK+WHM.

[rog]

That doesn't give us anything, though. We want something that lets us STAY as the "premier tank."
You're not the "premier tank" now though. A dd increase would absolutely help. There is a reason people often choose mnk over war. It's not because mnk does more damage. In fact it does less damage. However it is close enough, and offers a huge defensive bonus over war. If pld was close enough to the dd output of a war, or mnk, and was much better defensively, then it would be more desired. Of course at a bare minimum, you'd need to do at least 90% of the damage of a war, and probably more like 95%, before people really started to use pld for that reason.

[Dracoth]

I should have clarified what I meant by "STAY." When the level cap announcements were made, they hinted that PLD would remain the "Premiere tank." That was left behind before Visions was even over. It hasn't gotten any better. I should have said "so that we RETURN to being the 'Premier Tank'."

[Jamesruglia]

So far, I think Kirth's ideas are probably the most viable or desirable.

On the other end of the spectrum, I tend to prefer overall playability to being hammered into one single specific purpose. For instance, I've jokingly wanted Enlight for several years, then finally got it o.o

So I guess, "effectiveness" aside, I just like to see "Holy Knight"-ish stuff. Seraph Blade, Atonement, Sanguine Blade(In an odd, contrasting sort of way), Enlight, Reprisal, Flash, that kind of stuff.

[Blaksen]

Personally, I think the way to help Paladin is to give the job more ways to tank that don't require it to have enmity. As many people have said, fix cover so that its works on the whole alliance, but also remove the whole placement issue and just have it block whomever it is on regardless of location.

Cover can also be expanded to work like it has in previous FF games. Back in FF4 the main utility of Cecil's cover ability wasn't the activated mode but instead the auto cover trait that came with it. SE could add this to FF11 Paladin as well and give the Paladin a chance to automatically cover for anyone at yellow hp or lower.

Finally, while not directly a Paladin ability in the past I believe that Runic would do well to suit the Paladin in FF11. For those who do not know the ability, it forces the next spell cast focused on the user but that spell does not deal damage and instead gives mp to Runic's user. The ability could easily work on a similar level to the original Third Eye but with magic where it can absorb a single spell and has a 1 min recast and duration. This would have alot of utility because Paladin could then selectively absorb tier 5 ga spells or even death and doom.

[rog]

Cover can also be expanded to work like it has in previous FF games. Back in FF4 the main utility of Cecil's cover ability wasn't the activated mode but instead the auto cover trait that came with it. SE could add this to FF11 Paladin as well and give the Paladin a chance to automatically cover for anyone at yellow hp or lower. That actually sounds like an excellent idea.

[Attilas]

Stop tinking Paladin should DD like 3/4 of damage class. Lets not make another DD/tank class. Paladin should get an upgrade to damage taken and enmity control. A tank need to be good at tanking and a healer need to be good at heal not both !!

I was in Abyssea Altepa today with a group fighting Bogul Noz NM. I was shocked to see a BLM running arround the lake doing a mass pull of arround 15 mandies (Not exagerating). He was doing this repeatedly without taking any damage and then stoping to cast sleepga on the whole group !! Damn how can a BLM get 15 mandies on him and sleepga without getting interupted !!! A BLM should be the weakest at taking damage. But Abyssea made it a monster.

Some class role are not respected in Abyssea...

[Kyte]

It's called Mana wall.

[Zetonegi]

Stop tinking Paladin should DD like 3/4 of damage class. Lets not make another DD/tank class. Paladin should get an upgrade to damage taken and enmity control. A tank need to be good at tanking and a healer need to be good at heal not both !!

I was in Abyssea Altepa today with a group fighting Bogul Noz NM. I was shocked to see a BLM running arround the lake doing a mass pull of arround 15 mandies (Not exagerating). He was doing this repeatedly without taking any damage and then stoping to cast sleepga on the whole group !! Damn how can a BLM get 15 mandies on him and sleepga without getting interupted !!! A BLM should be the weakest at taking damage. But Abyssea made it a monster.

Some class role are not respected in Abyssea...
1st off Mana Wall is why the BLM wasn't taking damage. 2nd There is no reason to using a pure Tank. You can give PLD all the damage reduction you want but right now a MNK will simply outperform it because it can hold hate through sheer damage and counterstance serves as enough damage reduction. Damage reduction isn't going to help PLD. Even if they give PLD lots of tools and keep it a pure tank, they'd have to somehow nerf every DD because as long as DDs can ALSO tank there's no reason to have a tank that can't DD.

[GlobalVariable]

I'd like to see my most useless spell which is Holy have its enmity increased and its mp cost lowered, and have pld have a higher enmity cap than other jobs. A paladins function is to grab and hold hate. We can't do that when people are opening up with thousands of damage..Flash doesn't cut it and even if we got capped hate instantly at the start of every battle that doesn't mean a thing when anyone doing damage just capped theirs as well. I've had people have to go pld to things and even after using everything I got including my 2 hour, its painfully obvious they should not have because I still lose the monsters attention because others grab hate through their damage.

Usually a blue mage does a self skillchain and then nobody can get it off them till they die. At least its mildly amusing when its one of those noob blue mages who runs in circles yelling voke voke when you just did flash+voke+invincible and still only turned it after it took them to 3 hp and they decide to plenilune embrace self heal or goblin rush it and take hate right back, dying horribly.

And definitely change cover to more of a perma/auto like the other poster said. I have yet to meet a single DD who will hold still while I get in front of him or get behind me anyway.

[rog]

1st off Mana Wall is why the BLM wasn't taking damage.
Actually manawall isn't even necessarily needed for it. With tacos, and a good phalanx2, blm can easily reduce damage taken from most EP mnk mobs down to 0, except on crits (which with enemy crit rate merits is only a 1% chance). When i did this on blm, i would only use either stoneskin or manawall, and never both.

[zel_ifrit]

I think a great way of getting around the issue everyone here wants to be fixed is; to up the blockrate cap on all existing shield sizes. Increase "Shield defense bonus Trait" so PLD's can easier use /war and DD tank, and take less dmg per hit when blocking aswell.

Say something like 75~80% blockrate on shield size 3, 80~85% for Aegis. This way Ochain remains at the top of psy def aspect of shields with 90% blockrate, while closing in the huge gap we currently have.

What this does; allowing pld to Tank and DD /war easier taking advantage of Fencer/DA/ATK traits+Berserk, aggressor etc which is the best sub for a PLD to even keep up dmgwise to other DD jobs.

Sure Pld's won't DD aswell as Counterstance Mnks, but we are not suppose to.

Having Mnks deal DMG while Countering and negate dmg completely opposite to a PLD that blocks/reduce dmg taken for 5 tp gained (shield Mastery Trait), and being able to block TP moves - I could settle with this.

But this is not possible on stuff that matters with current shieldblock caps (except with Ochain).

Something that has annoyed me for a long time is that Cover ability have not been implemented well in this game. It could have been such a great ability if they made it better (like many here have already pointed out in this thread)

Suggestions to remedy this could be: Lower recast, up duration and make it Ally-wide.
My favourite suggestion would be; If they keep duration/recast - have Cover transfer enmity/or erase hate on whoever you cover (must stand behind you for it to go into effect)

I am aware it "threatens" THF-playstyle abit here with Collabrator, but they gave THF and DNC native Dualwield-trait etc, so why not.

I also wish they could give PLD native "Fencer Trait" seeing as PLD is one of the few jobs that actually single-wield 1hander weapons to perform well.

What I want is to have PLD as a "viable" option when picking DD tanks - or as it stands now; as a tank in general.

[Vagrua]

]
The next three all have to do with enmity

2nd) Give more and better hate abilities/spells.

3rd) Immunity or high resistance to hate resets/less hate loss in general.

4th) Higher enmity cap for PLD.

I'm all for these. Any DD that gets serious anytime during a fight can take hate off of a paladin. Even outside abyssea, a DD will be able to get hate within moments from a couple weaponskills, maybe even the first. The only way paladins have kept hate from DDs that I've seen are DDs trick attacking the paladin /thf with a weaponskill or a thief SATAing the paladin.

[Linh]

Giving Paladins and ONLY Paladins a higher Enmity cap wouldn't be such a good idea. Sure, in battle if there's one single EXTREMELY SHINY and important-looking person, you tend to go after them first. But that doesn't mean you should *always* go after them only. Sure, that General (Paladin) may be leading the charge, but those mages over there are gathering up for a huge spell...

Make the following changes:


1. Give Paladins a Job Trait that greatly enhances Enmity generation. So much that they would likely always reach enmity cap first over everyone else

2. Change the Job Ability "Cover" to a one second cooldown that can be used on anyone in the entire alliance, but instead of blocking the entire hit, the person being covered will always takes half the damage the Paladin takes. Also, remove the positioning requirement.

I see nothing wrong with hate bouncing, as long as the Paladin achieves maximum Enmity first. And as for the second suggestion, I feel it is a feasible request. I mean, if a gigantic dragon is gonna swipe its claws at you, there's no way the person behind me wouldn't receive a glancing blow (half damage).

EDIT:

3. Consolidate the Paladin Job Abilities "Holy Circle" and "Rampart" into one single Job Ability and have the duration be the same as the cooldown timer.

The Paladin is a source of morale and inspiration for his troops, why not let those 2 Job Abilities be always active?

[Chocobits]

Give PLD a new Magian Sword.

DMG: 65 Delay: 224
Damage taken - 15%
Enmity +20
Occasionally attacks 2-3 times
Additional effect: Provoke
Immunity to "Curse" and "Death" effects

Problem solved?

PLD sucks because of lack of damage, damage mitigation, enmity generation, constant enmity reset from most mobs, and getting instanixed by death and doom effects. Also, for the basic job they perform (meat shield), why aren't they given the highest HP rating of any job?

[GlobalVariable]

I don't want to sound hostile but some of you really do not "get it" so this is going to be my last post to this thread.


Giving Paladins and ONLY Paladins a higher Enmity cap wouldn't be such a good idea. Sure, in battle if there's one single EXTREMELY SHINY and important-looking person, you tend to go after them first. But that doesn't mean you should *always* go after them only. Having a higher cap doesn't mean always being at that cap. You still have to work for it.
1. Give Paladins a Job Trait that greatly enhances Enmity generation. So much that they would likely always reach enmity cap first over everyone else As soon as someone else is at cap that paladin is still going be rendered useless and helpless to change it.
I see nothing wrong with hate bouncing, as long as the Paladin achieves maximum Enmity first. Presently the blue mage in my linkshell always reaches cap second. My getting it first hasn't meant mean squat. Please just cease speaking.


Give PLD a new Magian Sword.

DMG: 65 Delay: 224
Damage taken - 15%
Enmity +20
Occasionally attacks 2-3 times
Additional effect: Provoke
Immunity to "Curse" and "Death" effects

Problem solved?

PLD sucks because of lack of damage, damage mitigation, enmity generation, constant enmity reset from most mobs, and getting instanixed by death and doom effects. Also, for the basic job they perform (meat shield), why aren't they given the highest HP rating of any job?

If someone does 6k damage in 2 seconds and the meat shield is able to pull hate back through matching or exceeding that damage that is broken because said meat shield is a meat shield not a dd. And another -10% pdt isn't going to get hate off that dd either. In the past our JAs and spells were enough to keep up, not anymore.


Suggestions to remedy this could be: Lower recast, up duration and make it Ally-wide.
My favourite suggestion would be; If they keep duration/recast - have Cover transfer enmity/or erase hate on whoever you cover (must stand behind you for it to go into effect)Personally I say to heck with the behind me stuff, everyone screw it up anyway. Just make it work exactly like FF4: target player, take physical damages for that player. Trait to "auto cover" low hp people if nobody is set as a cover target. Make recast lower and duration longer.

[brayen]

there are several ways to help adjust pld to current times, but it is not an easy one without simply breaking it as a job. Granting it better Damage is one way that would seem a bit inverse to what PLD is catered to. to start i would not mind if cover actually was made useful. Something along the lines of perfect counter but you cover your ally blocking spells and mitigating area of effect moves/spells for the party members standing behind based on the PLD's own defenses (magic and damage mitigation bonuses from gear or trait mirror onto pt members while behind the PLD) for a random amount of hits with a low recast and half duration. High fencer trait would be good as well in a start to extend PLD offensive a bit as well as something like "sword arts" granting some delay reduction to single handed swings. beyond that i would say extend pld curing with some basic -na spells. way i see it if you cant be the "tank" all the time you can support your team this way by helping safeguard a weaker ally, toss cures, help remove debuffs or simply have more productive damage. obviously this is just a start and would need to see how it plays out. i am sure there are plenty more ideas out there these are just some i have had in mind (especially with how cover has always been utterly useless!)

edit: forgot to add in my updated version of cover you protect anyone in your party that stands in a cone shape behind you extended its current range now a bit to allow for any pt member, so essentially you tank for your whole pt for that time duration. however risk is still around as it would not have a set amount of blocks so the player would work with that in mind.

[hiko]

-give pld a new trait : damage resistance (work as a separate term than damage reduction)
-change pdif formula from monster so defense have a higher impact on damage taken(more in a way where DD take more)
- shield stance : block 100% of attack for short time, with some negative effect (cant do any other action while under effect / hi CE loss /???)
- more enmity tool not related to dmg dealt
- some sort of counter
- - occasionaly counter attack with your shield (prevent all dmg)
- - occasionaly retaliate with shield after not shielded attack, dmg varies with shield size/def
- - occasinaly retaliate on blocked attack
- Fencer
- aegis: back to 25mdt but added mdb/M evasion

[Yukichibi]

Please stop with cover, it's the most useless JA a tank need, you take damage, your enmity decrease, so when cover end, your enmity is lower than before, and the enmity of the one you covered is the same or higher if he cured you or deal damage.
If you want to help someone who got ass-kicked toss him a cure IV, his enmity will lower because he is taking damage, and yours will go up because you heal him.

Simply make enmity for PLD to go up instead of going down when he takes damage, and he will always almost be on the top of hate list. (and repair useless cover)

[hiko]

Please stop with cover, it's the most useless JA a tank need, you take damage, your enmity decrease, so when cover end, your enmity is lower than before, and the enmity of the one you covered is the same or higher if he cured you or deal damage.
If you want to help someone who got ass-kicked toss him a cure IV, his enmity will lower because he is taking damage, and yours will go up because you heal him.

Simply make enmity for PLD to go up instead of going down when he takes damage, and he will always almost be on the top of hate list. (and repair useless cover)
- fix cover so the covered guy is the one loosing CE!

[xiozen]

Please stop with cover, it's the most useless JA a tank need, you take damage, your enmity decrease, so when cover end, your enmity is lower than before, and the enmity of the one you covered is the same or higher if he cured you or deal damage.
If you want to help someone who got ass-kicked toss him a cure IV, his enmity will lower because he is taking damage, and yours will go up because you heal him.

Simply make enmity for PLD to go up instead of going down when he takes damage, and he will always almost be on the top of hate list. (and repair useless cover)

I like these suggestions. Yes, SE Paladin needs work... and the basic mechanics that govern enmity, enmity loss/gain, phy damage mitigation, phy damage reduction, (phy. damage resistance?)... should definitely be re-worked. I know the Empyrian armor address much of this at the +2 level, however I believe native to the job (traits) should incorporate adjustments on par with blink-tanking ---not the same as but very similar, with adjustments based on those areas I previously mentioned. Then you'll end up with a lvl 99 Paladin, with extremely HIGH phy dmg resistance, mitigation...etc. How about an ability to turn on a Paladin-Scherzo...? Or something similar... not game breaking but balanced for TANKING... don't forget about enmity while your looking at these adjustments.

Also add a "Provoke" ability with appropriate timer, similar to Warrior or adjust Flash so that it adds enmity on par with Provoke and reduce it's recast time.

Thanks for listening.

[xiozen]

Just had an idea to add a job ability that worked like this:

During a battle or fight... enmity will shift and jump around depending on numerous factors... however, with "Malignite Shift"...

This ability will remain in effect for 3mins with a 3min recast.
When active the Paladin's attack decreases equal to the amount of enmity currently shifted
this figure will change constantly while the ability is active, however enmity will never shift
from the Paladin... so it would work like this... Drk uses Souleater, Last Resort and Berserk and
uses a weaponskill doing 2500 pts of dmg. With "Malignite Shift" active, that enmity gained on the DRk
automatically shifts to the Paladin... on par w/ the amount of enmity gained, the paladin's attack
drops by a similar percentage, now if a WHM begins cure bombing the Paladin, the enmity gained
from the cure bombs, eventually overtake the enmity generated by the DRk but since "Malignite Shift" will
still be active, the Paladin will be able to maintain hate regardless.

[Czeph]

Having read through the entirety of this thread.......
I will speak from my experience of being a pld main in abyssea.
With strong DDs and nukers, it is possible to maintain hate on paladin if done correctly for a time(details have been discussed on numerous forums and in guides for a long time). The problem occurs when others reach the emnity cap and repeatedly produce spike damage or a mob decays hate at a ridiculous rate. Vorpal blade spam in place of atonement spam seems to work ok between 1000<3500(more 1-3k on serious nms), it does something towards balancing this out. Chant du cygne seems to be more consistant damagewise, producing 2-6k(more 1-5k on serious NMs) from a pld set up well for it.

Run the figures for mnk/nin and pld/nin tp feeding a mob, pld will feed less tp over the same ammount of time unless the mnk makes real effort to stack subtle blow.

The best idea I've seen here has been raising the VE cap slightly for paladin as a trait.
A native provoke ability and a second flash ability come a close joint second.
Increasing paladins damage output coming third.

My suggestion would be to:
1) give paladin fencer as a native job trait.
2) give enmity bonus as a native job trait as described in an earlier post.
3) add a migawari: ichi style ability or job trait or spell with an equal effect/duration/recast.
4) allow paladin the same kind of bonus from stats that 2handed weapon users enjoy for sword only.
5) a new cure spell for pld rdm and sch averaging about 1k.
6) a new divine magic based spell that will cause non-elemental magic damage.
7) repairing atonements damage, and raising it's damage cap.
8) some sort of swift blade damage modifier improvement.

All of the above may sound overpowered, but in practice, only good paladins would succeed from these adjustments. It would require some testing with these in effect.

Addressing other issues found in this post:
1) MNK does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
2) WAR does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
3) reguarding the above statements, I am talking about -control- not -generation-.
4) PLD is not useless in abyssea if played well, it covers all the same red triggers warrior does with the exception of scythe(and dagger if subbing war).
5) whatever they try will be adjusted if it is overpowered or underpowered.

Finally, I would like to point out that this is based of my experience doing regular events in abyssea and numerous pickup runs. I don't intend to belittle MNK or WAR as a tank as such, just point out that whilest popular oppinion is against PLD lately that doesn't mean it's right: people used to think the earth was flat(and some still do).

Paladin does however need a boost in some way, just a nudge of hate controlling power in some form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

just re-read a friends post on this subject, his proposed adjustments might be just the nudge paladin needs. I'd suggest reading "One Knight's advice" before bringing this thread any further.

[Drivont]

Very true, I mean there are some way's to work around that, maybe raising the emn. cap, Making cover more usefull and letting you cover anyone in ally, adding spells like "Flash 2" lower recast then flash and generates more hate... There are a few "tweaks" they could implement to work well but I think at this point its more of a "Wait and see". I have to say though I don't have any complaint's when I get to tank NM's on warrior because of constant 5-6k ukko's furry :)

Yeah i was thinking like a rear facing, cone-based effect for covering

[GERM]

how bout just give a PLD an ability that when active all enmity is reduced to 0 to party members and transfered to PLD .. simple.. I still like an AoE version of the THF enmity steal abilities (cant think of what its called atm)

[thefinalrune]

how bout just give a PLD an ability that when active all enmity is reduced to 0 to party members and transfered to PLD .. simple.. I still like an AoE version of the THF enmity steal abilities (cant think of what its called atm)

I actually really like this idea. Since the enmity ceiling is so easily reached by DDs now this would serve greatly in PLD hate control. Make it like a level 50-60 ability with a 1-2min recast so that it can be used roughly once per battle. An AoE party enmity down effect would be great.

[brayen]

Having read through the entirety of this thread.......
I will speak from my experience of being a pld main in abyssea.
With strong DDs and nukers, it is possible to maintain hate on paladin if done correctly for a time(details have been discussed on numerous forums and in guides for a long time). The problem occurs when others reach the emnity cap and repeatedly produce spike damage or a mob decays hate at a ridiculous rate. Vorpal blade spam in place of atonement spam seems to work ok between 1000<3500(more 1-3k on serious nms), it does something towards balancing this out. Chant du cygne seems to be more consistant damagewise, producing 2-6k(more 1-5k on serious NMs) from a pld set up well for it.

Run the figures for mnk/nin and pld/nin tp feeding a mob, pld will feed less tp over the same ammount of time unless the mnk makes real effort to stack subtle blow.

The best idea I've seen here has been raising the VE cap slightly for paladin as a trait.
A native provoke ability and a second flash ability come a close joint second.
Increasing paladins damage output coming third.

My suggestion would be to:
1) give paladin fencer as a native job trait.
2) give enmity bonus as a native job trait as described in an earlier post.
3) add a migawari: ichi style ability or job trait or spell with an equal effect/duration/recast.
4) allow paladin the same kind of bonus from stats that 2handed weapon users enjoy for sword only.
5) a new cure spell for pld rdm and sch averaging about 1k.
6) a new divine magic based spell that will cause non-elemental magic damage.
7) repairing atonements damage, and raising it's damage cap.
8) some sort of swift blade damage modifier improvement.

All of the above may sound overpowered, but in practice, only good paladins would succeed from these adjustments. It would require some testing with these in effect.

Addressing other issues found in this post:
1) MNK does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
2) WAR does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
3) reguarding the above statements, I am talking about -control- not -generation-.
4) PLD is not useless in abyssea if played well, it covers all the same red triggers warrior does with the exception of scythe(and dagger if subbing war).
5) whatever they try will be adjusted if it is overpowered or underpowered.

Finally, I would like to point out that this is based of my experience doing regular events in abyssea and numerous pickup runs. I don't intend to belittle MNK or WAR as a tank as such, just point out that whilest popular oppinion is against PLD lately that doesn't mean it's right: people used to think the earth was flat(and some still do).

Paladin does however need a boost in some way, just a nudge of hate controlling power in some form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

just re-read a friends post on this subject, his proposed adjustments might be just the nudge paladin needs. I'd suggest reading "One Knight's advice" before bringing this thread any further.

I am going to disagree with most of what you are saying. 1k cure would be overpowered indeed something in the 650ish range would at least more balanced but not the biggest issue, i mean if we get a 1k cure w/ the right gear you are looking at 1200+, we are not looking to be a healer on pld at least, if anything i would say add something along the lines of what solace does to cures in where it helps mitigate some damage after a cure and/or generate more hate. pld can not hold better hate then mnk or war (these are only other jobs i can speak for that you made mention of) at the moment i am not sure where this is even coming from. Also a divine magic that does non elemental magic seems absurd lol maybe bring holy 2 out and make it actually worth something(i don't know enemity based dmg or something lol) unlike holy (totally worse spell i have ever seen) would be more sensible.

Personally i can't see boost pld damage without making it absurdly powerful job, which is why my earlier input was revolving on supporting dmg intake to the PLD's pt. The ideas of pld taking hate form his pt would not yield much of anything as 1 ws will easily rip hate right back, just how a thf at best makes a mob flinch and look away for a second before all hate is back to cap(in or out of abyssea)

[brymstone]

it posted this in another thread already but it seems relevant here aswell

how about a job trait for pld so that buffs cast on said pld would last longer than normal
im thinking regen, refresh, protect, shell, haste, any barspells, phalanx, reprisal dunno maybe more bard songs? maybe even make them more potent

i thinks pld should have been the one to get fencer

changing cover is a great idea

[Ryx]

pld can not hold better hate then mnk or war (these are only other jobs i can speak for that you made mention of) at the moment i am not sure where this is even coming from.

Allow me to explain this one. What Cz was talking about was not about their ability to hold hate, but about their ability to control the monster. Having a War, Mnk, or any DD "tank" the monster results in a messy, Tp-spamming trainwreck waiting to happen. When you have the a Pld tanking, there is far less danger involved, because the Pld feeds signifigantly less Tp, takes none of the damage, and has tools to respond to shit-hits-fan situations. Nin *might* feed less TP than we do, because of Yurin, it's debateable, on the grounds of their attack rate, and that their evasion and shadows prevent mobs from gaining TP attacking them.

I agree to an extent about giving paladin a stronger cure risking us turned into a healer, but at the same time, I feel we need something stronger than Cure IV. Perhaps a take on whm afflatus, where our damage taken can be converted into cure potency, similiar to how solace cures are converted into holy damage.

Holy II being a spell form of Atonement is an interesting idea, and one I'm not necessarily opposed to.

Personally though, I think a lot of people here have suggested some absurd ideas, things that have the potential to go wayyy too far out of balance. Some sound good at a glance, but then you think of the reprecussions of them. I don't believe we should be requesting any abilities that take player skill & commitment out of the equation. Paladin should have an upper edge when it comes to tanking, but they need to work for it. A middle-class Paladin should NOT be able to keep hate off a high-class DD going all out right off the bat. Not even a high-class Paladin should be capable of doing that, in all honesty.

Try not to think only of Paladin, but how we're supposed to play & work with everyone else. A few subtle changes have the potential to go a long way, since the problems against us aren't quite as bad as people make them out to be. I know a lot of people are crying "Paladin is worthless!" over and over again. This is not true. Perhaps the people doing the crying are worthless on THEIR Paladins, but the job itself is not. I'm not going to say we fit into any of the cookie-cutter party setups right now, because abyssea has thrown the curve balls at us of !! triggers, and cruor/atma buffs, but that doesn't mean it's a bad job.

[Rambus]

Sorry, but it's true. I've got -50% mdt on war, which is exactly what you have with your shiny aegis. It's really not hard to cap mdt.

I have to agree with rog, that is why at this time there is nothing special about aegis. I specifically said Empyrean sword or sword/shield since the added effect on relic sword does not give you hate. The WS is not critical or give you double damage on melee swings like Empyrean sword is. To be a tank you need to keep hate and take damage well, not just take damage like you pointed out. Plus I can say I take 0 damage from thunder V because WHMs have a nice bar spell after effect. ( why are you getting hit by thunder V? I never seen anyone get hit with single target spells, sincee afterall you have mnk/nin, thf/nin or nin/war for tank)

I hope SE makes aegis and PLD better and effective to play Lutschfactor but that is not the case right now. I can say I can kill XXX in abyssea with 12 DNC but how effective is that?

[Unleashhell]

Something I would like to see, is some kind of TP return for Shield Bash. Being that shield bash does damage like a single weapon hit does I think a TP return maybe based on how much damage you do on shield bash would be nice to see. Obviously Aegis giving the highest TP return. It just a little something to help WS more for PLD, adding to hate control and also giving some sort of little benefit to actually being an Aegis holder myself. Like some of the previous posts other jobs can get mdt- very easily so it is not anything special to have -40% with Aegis at level 90. Also idk what SE was thinking with "Augments Shield Bash IV", its just a measly 20 more damage per upgrade. Such a waste of gil for dynamis to get it to 90 in hopes of some very nice 500-700 Shield bash at level 90.

I do agree with Flash II though. I think its very much needed. I would like to see some kind of ability to up cure potency that lasts maybe 5 or even 10 minutes. That would be another nice tool for PLD using Cure IV for hate. Being cure IV is very much outdated at this point and at 99 will be even more outdated they need to do something with the Enmity cures generate.

[rog]

why are you getting hit by thunder V? I never seen anyone get hit with single target spells, sincee afterall you have mnk/nin, thf/nin or nin/war for tank
because /nin is a terrible sub.

[Amoklauf]

I used to want blood/meat tanking to make a comeback, now I don't know why I cared. I guess it's just wanting everything to be viable. However, that's already kind of the case. It's starting to look like PLD can't be an optimal job choice unless DD's take a back seat.

Anyway, just throwing this out there: how about mobs getting severely reduced TP from hitting a PLD? TP drain on attacks. Light based version of absorb tp? I dunno, just trying to think of way PLD can add something defensive without it being much like PDT or MDT, because that's no longer special or in low supply. I know some people don't think anything defensive will help PLD's cause, but I feel like this would be a welcome addition when/if the game's emphasis moves out of abyssea.

[Dracoth]

If PLD had the reverse of Subtle Blow going for it... That's an interesting idea. The mob would gain less tp from hitting the PLD than it otherwise would, meaning the one source of TP that most mobs have (and why Evasion tanks do really well on most NMs) would be reduced. It still wouldn't be as bad as missing entirely, so Evasion tanking would still have its strong point, but it would give an incentive to use a PLD. It would, of course, work far better if the PLD got that TP itself. Maybe with the shield block - the amount of extra TP the PLD gets comes at the expense of the mob's TP gain?

[Kavik]

I have had similar discussions in my ls with our mages (mainly one who thinks he is the god of all whms and in truth i think he sucks, but that is another story) my solution was similar to pld getting its own provoke, currently even using invincible (which is another gripe because they gave the same damn thing ((only better mind you)) to blms i.e. Mana Wall and it does not make u invincible it does the largely the same thing as perfect dodge becuase if u get hit with a spell you're still dead) I believe pld should have an end all be all hate getter JA, in which NOTHING will pull hate off the pld, and i already KNOW SE can do this because there is an NM in wajaom woodlands that already DOES. If you have never met him, he's an aptant dropping flea that will not attack anyone else but the person who aggro'd him, (since he's a flea and you have to aggro him before he is targetable) until that person is dead, then he moves to the next person with hate until everyone is either dead or he is. So I see no reason that this would not be possible, it would make pld's useful again as a tank, and not abnormally effect the other jobs in the game. If you want to hp tank some NM with a mnk by all means take you're mnk nin blue whatever and tank away with damage etc (i also eva tank on thf and my hate controlling ability makes me a good one, but i love pld and since it is the only job dedicated to tanking i beleive it should be the BEST and it is ridiculous that half the jobs in the game have some form of hate control while the main tank in the game gets next to nothing, and what it does have has rediculous delays even with merits.). But if you have a pld they should be able to tank the mob no matter cures/nukes/dmg is done to the mob from the party. It could even be meritable giving pld's some flexibilty. As as 90 sch and 90 whm i prefer to cure one person over 18.

[brayen]

hate is not the main prblem. who would invite a pld to hold hate when you can keep hate on 1 ddtank and get the job 4x faster with a tiny bit more risk? need to drop the notion of "needing hate" i am unsure why that is such a concern in this thread? while i think giving pld a slightly higher hate limit is good i dont see the need for a provoke hate tool. some improvement in offensive some better supportive defensive capabilities and maybe slightly higher hate cap is what should be focused on.

[Charismatic]

Honestly, the biggest change that needs to be made to Paladin is that it needs to be made into a DD that can also tank. I know that sounds weird given what Paladin has been. But really, that's what the game's been shifting toward for a long time now. Abyssea has only sped up the process.
What'd be interesting is if they could make Paladin a damage dealer with its own niche. Perhaps a way to deal substantial damage to an enemy utilizing tools that already exist in a Paladin's arsenal simply by changing the effects. Perhaps Paladin could get traits that change the effects of spells we already currently use such as flash (who is to say that we couldn't get a trait that adds a very potent DoT to Flash?)

Anyway, it'd be quite the bummer if they just increased the Paladin job's potency with the sword and didn't really add anything unique to the job but that would certainly fix the real issue the job is facing because there's already plenty of ways to shift hate onto a Paladin, it's just that most of the time there's no need to even bother.

[Deadplaything]

I would like to throw down my ideas that will fix Paladin and make a tank the way SE intended.
1- Physical shield ability- Recast 1 minute, Lowers Damage of next incoming attack by 75% Regens 10% HP unable to attack during this period.
2-Magical Shield ability- Recast 1 minute ,Lowers Damage of next incoming magic spell by 75% refreshes 10% MP unable to cast during this period.
3-Job Trait-Enmity distribution based on hits taken by enemy. (When taking damage normally a person would actually lose
Enmity, In this case Enmity is boosted by each attack.
4-Taunt- Gaze ability and or Trait. when facing a monster. Will Focus all Attacks on you for 60 seconds or as long as you are facing it.
5-Hero- Ability-Area of effect shield that makes fellow party members Lose enmity for every hit taken.
6-Cover 2 -Covers multiple members of the party in a Cone shaped barrier coming from the Paladins back.

I need to patent these ideas huh..
Just some ideas I think will fix Paladin thanks for reading.

[Miiyo]

I would like to throw down my ideas that will fix Paladin and make a tank the way SE intended.
1- Physical shield ability- Recast 1 minute, Lowers Damage of next incoming attack by 75% Regens 10% HP unable to attack during this period.
2-Magical Shield ability- Recast 1 minute ,Lowers Damage of next incoming magic spell by 75% refreshes 10% MP unable to cast during this period.
3-Job Trait-Enmity distribution based on hits taken by enemy. (When taking damage normally a person would actually lose
Enmity, In this case Enmity is boosted by each attack.
4-Taunt- Gaze ability and or Trait. when facing a monster. Will Focus all Attacks on you for 60 seconds or as long as you are facing it.
5-Hero- Ability-Area of effect shield that makes fellow party members Lose enmity for every hit taken.
6-Cover 2 -Covers multiple members of the party in a Cone shaped barrier coming from the Paladins back.

I need to patent these ideas huh..
Just some ideas I think will fix Paladin thanks for reading.

/steals ideas and patents
Thanks for the money ideas :D

[Zeolite]

Just possible ideas to throw out there, but i think reworking some of Paladins already abilities would help it along with some new ones might just make it a viable option again.
1. Increase Reprisal duration by 30 secs making it 1:30 duration along with making it deliver more damage back that can't be resisted, kinda like a non elemental damage. Also no enmity is lost while Reprisal is in effect.
2. Reduce Shield Bash recast to 3 mins from 5 mins and either increase damage done or stun time length based on shield skill. For the stun length every 50 shield skill points adds 1 second to stun
3. Give Rampart absorb magic damage ability or a -% magic damage taken simliar to Sentinel and its decay effects.
4. Increase Divine Magic level to an A or A- rating, increase Enhancing Magic Skill level to a C or C+ and increase Healing Magic to B rating aswell.
5. Make Shield Mastery job trait help lose less enmity as you block and each rise in the job trait is based on a percentaged like 5%-10% to less enmity lost. So at tier 3 every hit blocked 15%-30% less enmity is lost compared to being hit regularly.
6. Either make Holy a stronger spell or reduce its mp cost.
7. Completely change Cover, give it a 1 min duration, keep the recast the same, and make it like some people have said a conal block behind the Paladin. Also no enmity lost to the paladin only the person the cover affected will lose enmity.
New job abilities, magic, and traits
1. Pertaining to Holy if you make it stronger make it as strong as tier 3 magic and give Paladins Holy2 with the strength of either tier 5 or AM.
2. Give us a native job trait to having enmity and have it start at lvl 10 with increases at every 20 levels and each level either gives us +2 or +3 enmity. So at level 90 we can have a natural +10 to +15 enmity without merits.
3. Give us a Cure spell that is based on percentage healing like it would cure at 30% total of health similar to the way elixirs work. Such as if you had 2000 hp you would get 600 or at 4000 hp get 1200. Also make Healing Magic affect it in a way that it can be increased to heal 35% or up to even 40%. This would keep balance in both abyssea and outside of abyssea. Yes I can cap my hp at 2000+ outside abyssea with gear and food.
4. Give Paladins Banish3, Banish4, Repose and some form of Barlight. We are divine kinghts but why does our banish only go as high as tier 2. Dark Knights have both sleep and sleep2, repose only seems reasonable.
5. Make an ability that resets the mobs hate list. Make it where the mob only has the paladin on the hate list giving everyone a complete enmity reset. Be something like instant and maybe 10min recast time or as low as 5min.
6. Make an ability that is similar to Divine Emblem but doubles the potency of divine spells.
7. Make range attacks blockable.
8. Give Paladins a JA that gives them the ability to comepletely block out enspells and en-status effects,like doom silence petrified etc, if they block the attack with their shield. This would not increase their block rate, but rather everytime they block while this JA is in effect they would be immune to all enspells and status effects. Give it a 1 min duration with 10min recast timer

I have put a lot of thought into balance issues but this would put Paladin back into being a more viable tank and make Paladin more of a tanking job. Nowhere would this overpower a Paladin other than being a better tanking job. I would like constructive criticism on my thoughts for Paladin

[Upscapi]

A couple of things that I've thought about:

The light spikes that Reprisal has generating enmity and increasing on successive hits (sort of like how RDM enspell II procs increase each hit, or the exact opposite of how enlight works for PLD now.)

Another idea/concept sort of borrows from Libra, used if PLD is on the mob's hate list. The current hate lvl that a PLD has could be the basis. If other players increase their hate % over PLD, then there could be some sort of formula applied that increases damage that that/those players takes.

Something else would be an adjustment to provoke for PLD, or a PLD JA that works like provoke, but the effect is similar to how provoke works in ballista. Have it so that when you use it, the mob's attention is focused ONLY on you for a duration of 20-30 seconds or something. Give it like a 3 minute cool down so it's not exploitable or overpowered.

These ideas wouldn't break the way PLD or other jobs work, and without a PLD certainly mobs could be killed or tanked in alternative ways. A lot of the fun, at least to me, is getting together with people and working up a strategy and keeping in coordination to take down a mob.

[Manicora]

I am no godly pld, I have seen NM's rape Monks and Nins in Aby where my pld was able to Take that damage. Case in point is Ulg Range Ironclad and The Robotic NM you pop in same area. Yes that Nin is well geard and was well Kept in healing magic, but They didnt have 4k HP like the monk and Had 1/2 The Def I had. I still got into Red HP but was able to self heal. I could not keep hate for anything /war with Max Enmity Merits and gear. So YES please Fix PLD i wana use it again SE
Love my LS mates and Always have fun on Any job, even though u suck and am Super Gimp on all but 3.

[Manicora]

Love those Ideas!!

[Aeonk]

I would like to throw down my ideas that will fix Paladin and make a tank the way SE intended.
1- Physical shield ability- Recast 1 minute, Lowers Damage of next incoming attack by 75% Regens 10% HP unable to attack during this period.
2-Magical Shield ability- Recast 1 minute ,Lowers Damage of next incoming magic spell by 75% refreshes 10% MP unable to cast during this period.
3-Job Trait-Enmity distribution based on hits taken by enemy. (When taking damage normally a person would actually lose
Enmity, In this case Enmity is boosted by each attack.
4-Taunt- Gaze ability and or Trait. when facing a monster. Will Focus all Attacks on you for 60 seconds or as long as you are facing it.
5-Hero- Ability-Area of effect shield that makes fellow party members Lose enmity for every hit taken.
6-Cover 2 -Covers multiple members of the party in a Cone shaped barrier coming from the Paladins back.

I need to patent these ideas huh..
Just some ideas I think will fix Paladin thanks for reading.
Even though this is a copy/paste post from what you put on ffxiah.com, no this stuff will not fix PLD. They're gimmick abilities that don't fix the the problem.

It's not that PLD lacks the tools to do it's hate holding/dmg mitigating job, it never lost that. The problem here, is that any DD can put forth higher dmg over time, thus cementing hate onto themselves too with little effort. And dmg mitigation isn't a problem because most probably carry PDT sets. And even if they don't, WHM has infinite MP now, so it can spam Cure V all day.

When MP is not an issue, what difference does it make when your "tank" takes 300 dmg, or 800 dmg? none. now what if the guy taking 800 dmg dealt more dmg in return?

What PLD needs right now in order to keep up, is a way to do what Almace does for PLD... without the Almace. If PLD can keep up dmg wise hate holding will come naturally. Same notion as Atonement tanking.
As for solo tanking... that's long dead because of the low hate cap. Any DD will be bouncing hate after 2 or 3 WS's. So like others have suggested, either tinker with the hate cap mechanics or make PLD into a hybrid DD/tank.

Sorry mate, but right now the only way to play PLD is with an oversized 1 handed sword. that's a harsh requirement, but that's the dev's job to figure out how to rebalance it.

[Captain]

Even though this is a copy/paste post from what you put on ffxiah.com, no this stuff will not fix PLD. They're gimmick abilities that don't fix the the problem.

It's not that PLD lacks the tools to do it's hate holding/dmg mitigating job, it never lost that. The problem here, is that any DD can put forth higher dmg over time, thus cementing hate onto themselves too with little effort. And dmg mitigation isn't a problem because most probably carry PDT sets. And even if they don't, WHM has infinite MP now, so it can spam Cure V all day.

When MP is not an issue, what difference does it make when your "tank" takes 300 dmg, or 800 dmg? none. now what if the guy taking 800 dmg dealt more dmg in return?

What PLD needs right now in order to keep up, is a way to do what Almace does for PLD... without the Almace. If PLD can keep up dmg wise hate holding will come naturally. Same notion as Atonement tanking.
As for solo tanking... that's long dead because of the low hate cap. Any DD will be bouncing hate after 2 or 3 WS's. So like others have suggested, either tinker with the hate cap mechanics or make PLD into a hybrid DD/tank.

Sorry mate, but right now the only way to play PLD is with an oversized 1 handed sword. that's a harsh requirement, but that's the dev's job to figure out how to rebalance it.

IMPLYING that the game will remain in Abyssea forever.

[KorPoni]

How about this?
1: Savior: Ability - steal some enmity from party members within area against target enemy. (enmity stolen is very low, but it's just another way to get some more enmity.)
2: Flash II: Spell - blinds target for a short period. (enmity is same as flash, but blind is more potent and lasts longer, and recast is longer.)
3: Shield-Bearer: Trait - As long as you are equipped with a shield, your maximum enmity is doubled. (or effectiveness of enmity increased. Whichever works for SE for game balance.)

All of these are focused on enmity. I think for survivability, if a pld is struggling, look for better gear and start curing yourself :D

[brayen]

it seems reoccuring to want to steal hate, why won't people understand if you steal even 100% of a melee's hate 1 ws or two can easily recap hate, it would be worthless on he level of cover. Improve the damage dealing potential and maybe rework the enmity cap on the job itself, otherwise add a good amount of support spells/job abilities and make pld a very niche support job that handles dmg mitigation across the pt or something else similarly crazy and unexpected.

[Aeonk]

IMPLYING that the game will remain in Abyssea forever.
Nah, more so saying that if people want a fix for PLD in abyssea, then conal Cover is not the answer.

[Dale]

Augmenting the Cover effect sounds great to me, especially cause I'm probably the only PLD in the history of FFXI who has it fully merited \o/

That aside, raising enmity cap for PLD may not be the smartest idea, since once they're over cap, they would stay there and it would make it impossible for other jobs to take hate, unless the PLD takes massive damage. Sure, that would solidify a PLDs role as a tank, but maybe make it a bit overpowered. I guess it depends on how much they increase the cap, if they do. Just a bit too much, and it would be overpowered, not enough and constant hitters, like MNK or dual wielders, would get hate back all the time, making the mob spin like a dreidel.

I have cover fully merited also, so you are not the only one :)

I've been playing ff11 off and on now for probably a decade, and I can honestly say at no point in the past has the Paladin been as powerful as it is now. All of these people saying Paladins are dead should have played the job back when your shield was horrible, you ran out of mp in seconds, and you were lucky if you could kill an even match monster.

Just because you have these ninjas or /ninjas running around with lots of atma shadow tanking mobs doesn't mean the Paladin is dead. It would be retarded if only one job could tank stuff afterall. I have tanked a few NMs in abyssea already and i just started doing it, and that was without any atma. There is nothing wrong with the Paladin job. Of course it's not perfect and there is always ways to improve - but this job is far far from being dead. It's alive and well, and IMHO, kicking @$$.

[Deadplaything]

I think they did good on the tank jobs in ff 13 if they could treat this game the same way pld would hold hate versus all dmg done no matter what and not take much for dmg i know its too good to be true but would be nice. And I am aware it would need to completly overhaul the current emnity mechanics of the game but I dont think they ever adjusted it when the new expanisons came out or when level cap increased if they left it the same then shame on them.
Also would like to take the time to thank you for the positive feedback and considerate replies other than bashing on me saying I know nothing. Like FFxiah zoo .com

[Tonberry]

I have cover fully merited also, so you are not the only one :)

I've been playing ff11 off and on now for probably a decade, and I can honestly say at no point in the past has the Paladin been as powerful as it is now. All of these people saying Paladins are dead should have played the job back when your shield was horrible, you ran out of mp in seconds, and you were lucky if you could kill an even match monster.

Just because you have these ninjas or /ninjas running around with lots of atma shadow tanking mobs doesn't mean the Paladin is dead. It would be retarded if only one job could tank stuff afterall. I have tanked a few NMs in abyssea already and i just started doing it, and that was without any atma. There is nothing wrong with the Paladin job. Of course it's not perfect and there is always ways to improve - but this job is far far from being dead. It's alive and well, and IMHO, kicking @$$.

P@$$ whatever you're smoking this way

[Thanathosgt]

There's some interesting ideas here about how to fix paladin in some way, but as some the guys say, this are just like patches to the real problem, which is the lack of dmg input and enmity generation and management, even though ima say that the input is very good imo of some of those ideas. I really love playing the job, even with the harsh comments, i keep using it whenever i get the chance, cause i know i do a damn good job on it. Keep the good work coming with the ideas guys.

[Basher]

has anyone suggested making enmity merit a pld only merit instead of all jobs. Then you could stack dd pieces in slots you would usually fill with enmity gear without placing emnity merits on your other jobs. Maybe a reflect "Martyr JA" when you take damage attacking mob takes dmg % of dmg dealt. A spike effect based on dmg.

[Autoshot]

PLD isnt a dead job, can we stop complaining. Let MNK have theyre glory because over the years, mnks spotlight was sitting in whitegate waiting for a pt for 6 hrs, then the pt disbands because the rep was a mnk. as a matter of fact PLD still is very useful. it is true that any DD can tank in abyssea zones. but as pld can use a giant variety of weapons, it makes proccing !! a lot easier. faster procs = faster kills. also, with abyssea buffs you never run out of mp, and as for magic spamming mobs, plds still come in handy. Sure, we arent full tanking mobs like we used to, but when was the last time youve seen a sam/thf at an event lol. we got a small role shift and we deal with it and make it work, as for my pld, i still use it, my ls perfers me on pld if we have a blu over anything else. Abyssea is simple. you hold the mob until !! are procced and then it dies within seconds. That is the plds new role. Another thing, Plds can stop going /nin to abyssea you have 3k hp, unless a mob has endoom, theres no reason for you to /nin. /war and you can do some tanking, i have np's at all

[Morgantisthedon]

Haveing a 90 pld is depressing for me I basically am a glorified puller in abby now ><; My opinion for helping pld to hold hate is increasing the specific enimity gain for pld /ja only. This would have to be done over 49 I belive to give people a chance to see a core tank job. Seeing how war or sam or other DD's can tank as it is. Giving them better enimity gain via divine seal or adding a provoke to paladin with enimity gain x2 or x3 of provoke might be able to help pld be able to hold hate also better or increasing the /ja specific to pld for them being the true tank's in vandiel

[Cream_Soda]

Let MNK have theyre glory because over the years, mnks spotlight was sitting in whitegate waiting for a pt for 6 hrs, then the pt disbands because the rep was a mnk
lol, I'm pretty sure this was pld.

[Leviticus]

Easy fix.
Level 50 PLD Job Trait: Enmity Boost
Boost Enmity generated from any action.

Level 50 PLD Job Ability: Sanctuary
Boost party's defense slightly and redirects half enmity generated by any party member to caster.

Level 90 PLD Spell (66MP): Divine Wrath
Attacks, blocks, and parries deal light damage. This damage generates extremely high enmity. 7 charges

The reason for level 50 is so the abilities are not gained by from subjob. All or a few of those would be great. Or the easiest fix: give pld provoke at level 50.

[Cream_Soda]

Easy fix.
Level 50 PLD Job Trait: Enmity Boost
Boost Enmity generated from any action.

Level 50 PLD Job Ability: Sanctuary
Boost party's defense slightly and redirects half enmity generated by any party member to caster.

Level 90 PLD Spell (66MP): Divine Wrath
Attacks, blocks, and parries deal light damage. This damage generates extremely high enmity. 7 charges

The reason for level 50 is so the abilities are not gained by from subjob. All or a few of those would be great. Or the easiest fix: give pld provoke at level 50.
This isn't a fix at all. You just plain don't understand.


Again.

Why even have a pld in the pt when a DD can tank and deal damage at the same time. Enmity isn't the issue. They can have all the hate they want in the world, but if the job can be done w/o a pld in the pt, there is no reason to have a pld.

[Aeonk]

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.
While I do see where you're coming from, the problem is that currently any DD job doesn't stay within it's designated role of "just DD". Every DD (especially Empy wielding ones) is expected to tank to a degree. Whether it's a NIN sub with capped haste gear (which is now easier than ever to obtain) and/or PDT/MDT sets... just about any DD can step outside it's original intent and tank.

Where does this leave PLD? At a disadvantage, seeing as how we have 0 offensive traits/abilities. Almace definately narrows the gap, but a little boost elsewhere wouldn't be unwelcome. Like I mentioned in the other threads, a trait of some variety that lowers weapon delay on par with NIN's dual wield or MNK's martial arts would go a long way to putting PLD where it belongs, without forcing the user to get an Almace.

Edit: lol didn't realize this thread was 13 pages long... I'm a tad late to the party. But nonetheless, the changes mentioned is an answer Cream_Soda's question. Make PLD a competant DD as well as tank, and from that point on player skill/gear will be the only factor to consider when choosing what job to play.

[Naix]

This isn't a fix at all. You just plain don't understand.


Again.

Why even have a pld in the pt when a DD can tank and deal damage at the same time. Enmity isn't the issue. They can have all the hate they want in the world, but if the job can be done w/o a pld in the pt, there is no reason to have a pld.

I agree. Further to that, a PLD can't truly DD and 'tank' at the same time. A PLD tanks by getting smacked in the face. A properly geared PLD can tremendously reduce damage bloodtanking anything now. Unfortunately... to do this you have to give up every bit of your DD gear that even with an Almace puts you behind an equally geared DD.

And this is about damage taken. Now a days lots of the harder mobs have en-effects that are nasty as hell, and the trick to winning is not getting hit.

The fix to pld, w/e it is, goes beyond just a simple damage increase, or defense increase, or enmity tools increase. It'll likely need to see some sort of element that the game hasn't seen yet.

[Aeonk]

I agree. Further to that, a PLD can't truly DD and 'tank' at the same time. A PLD tanks by getting smacked in the face. A properly geared PLD can tremendously reduce damage bloodtanking anything now. Unfortunately... to do this you have to give up every bit of your DD gear that even with an Almace puts you behind an equally geared DD.

A PLD tanks by avoiding hits with /NIN, like most other DD tanks. And abilities like Reprisal, Shield Bash, and Sentinal/phalanx only make that easier. It's entirely unnecessary to stay in turtle gear while Utsusemi is up.

Only time I'd go /WAR is if the mobs are easy, or if you got Ochain. At which point, you can't die even if you try.

[Cursed]

enmity/defensive and atk increases are out of the question.
PLD can already mitigate more than 50% of both magic and physical dmg without a relic and empyrean.
PLD can already generate a lot of enmity. Its just useless when you have melee also capping enmity chart and slapping the mob around.
Sure, increase PLD's attack ability to that of WAR and MNK and NIN. That way instead of having 1 useless job that never sees any action, we will have every melee sitting on the bench.

like Soda said, you need to make having a pld in party/alliance B E N E F I C I A L.
You can gimp every other job to achieve this.
or you can pump some steroids into PLD and as a consequence make every other melee job obsolete.
Or you can think outside the box and start giving PLD abilities/spells/job traits that do not rely on current game mechanics.
Or just put the job out of its misery and delete it.
This isnt hard. Give PLD an Aura effect... different stances with different aura effects?
How about an ability that is the inverse of charm. Instead of getting the mob's loyalty, you get its focused attention for a period of time.
how about giving PLD the ability to stagger mobs without procing !!'s? even outside abyssea?
SE demonstrated they could be creative with jobs when they introduced DNC.
I have a lil faith, and am pretty sure all this PLD waa waa waa will force 'em to do something.
I am just worried they will end up screwing everyone else over by trying to fix pld.

[Aeonk]

Cursed, even back when Atonement spam was king and PLD's contributed significant dmg over the course of an HNM fight (like Cerberus for example), when was the last time you saw a PLD burn? Nothing but support and an alliance of PLD's spamming Atonement on any given NM and shelfing every other DD in the game?

I'm willing to bet that's never happened.

A damage output buff would go a long way towards allowing non-Almace PLD's to be competant in doing what we were designed to do in the first place.

[Cursed]

Cursed, even back when Atonement spam was king and PLD's contributed significant dmg over the course of an HNM fight (like Cerberus for example), when was the last time you saw a PLD burn? Nothing but support and an alliance of PLD's spamming Atonement on any given NM and shelfing every other DD in the game?

I'm willing to bet that's never happened.




A damage output buff would go a long way towards allowing non-Almace PLD's to be competant in doing what we were designed to do in the first place.


Every cerberus/fafnir/nidhogg/tiamat/khimaira only ever needed 1-2 plds, 1xbrd, 1xrdm, 1x TH and a BLM if you wanted to speed things up or had to stun fulm/goh.
You didn't need any melee jobs at all, and those of us that were smart didn't recruit anymore members than we absolutely needed. we never had a bunch of melee spamming ws's and raping shit. towards the end of the HNM scene we didn't even have plds spamming atonement anymore. Why would you when 2-3 Ammano's spamming Kaiten lowered the duration of the fight by 2/3rds.
Looking back, the lack of need for all the melee and indeed many other jobs is why they implemented the stagger !! system in abyssea. They couldn't balance the game so they just made content a lot more specific.

If you give PLD the ability to do dmg on par with war/mnk/nin you are just returning the game to the way it was pre-abyssea. Other than procs, you won't need any other job, ever.
what would an ochain/almace PLD even need with an LS? could just solo everything with a whm mule being dual boxed.

[Elonial]

First, I want to say I'm not sure how all the endgame stuff works because I was level 68 PLD when Abyssea came out. So if this idea is just ridiculous, my mistake =] but, after reading some of the suggestions, and the posts right after burning them down, I thought of one, maybe? Not sure if anyone else has already thought of it, but what if PLD got a spell or JA that would essentially "lock" the monster on to you regardless of enmity? I heard that if someone uses provoke in ballista, the other player is automatically "locked" on you, like along those lines is what I mean.

[Arcon]

First, I want to say I'm not sure how all the endgame stuff works because I was level 68 PLD when Abyssea came out. So if this idea is just ridiculous, my mistake =] but, after reading some of the suggestions, and the posts right after burning them down, I thought of one, maybe? Not sure if anyone else has already thought of it, but what if PLD got a spell or JA that would essentially "lock" the monster on to you regardless of enmity? I heard that if someone uses provoke in ballista, the other player is automatically "locked" on you, like along those lines is what I mean.

I actually like this idea. PLD has always needed a native kind of provoke, this would be even more efficient. Although I don't know if it could be called cheating, it does sound a bit overpowered. Maybe with longer recast, 10s duration, 2min recast or something, for emergencies.

[Elonial]

Thanks Arcon ^^ I didn't think about how it could be considered overpowered, I see that now though. I only thought about when we were inside Abyssea with all of the super powered DD's. Trying to hold anything while they're going at it seems like a feat in itself haha.

[Aeonk]

That idea fails to address what Cream_Soda has been saying all this time. I'll reiterate it in a different way so maybe people will get the point.

We do NOT need help holding hate. We never did.

What we need is a reason to have a PLD in the party instead of a DD tank. Justification.


Holding hate 100% of the time might make you feel like you're tanking... but really, what's the point? If a DD, even a sub par DD can survive the mob's damage and deal more damage than you, they speed up the fight. And as we all know in abyssea, time is money. The playerbase doesn't want a safer fight, they want a faster fight. So how can PLD speed things up?

Damage.
It not only speeds the fight up, it is easily the best hate tool in the game. I'm not saying that we have to upset the job balance and become the #1 DD's as well as tanks (although elitist mentallity will take nothing less than #1... but there's no satisfying them anyway.)
Any type of dmg buff would be a step in the right direction, no matter how big/small it is. If you're dealing significant dmg to help speed things up (and tank), that's all anyone can ask for.


And as the icing on the cake, how about a little perspective?
Even RDM has Composure (it's used for buff duration, but it does give them accuracy.)

[Arcon]

That idea fails to address what Cream_Soda has been saying all this time. I'll reiterate it in a different way so maybe people will get the point.

We do NOT need help holding hate. We never did.

What we need is a reason to have a PLD in the party instead of a DD tank. Justification.


Holding hate 100% of the time might make you feel like you're tanking... but really, what's the point? If a DD, even a sub par DD can survive the mob's damage and deal more damage than you, they speed up the fight. And as we all know in abyssea, time is money. The playerbase doesn't want a safer fight, they want a faster fight. So how can PLD speed things up?

Damage.
It not only speeds the fight up, it is easily the best hate tool in the game. I'm not saying that we have to upset the job balance and become the #1 DD's as well as tanks (although elitist mentallity will take nothing less than #1... but there's no satisfying them anyway.)
Any type of dmg buff would be a step in the right direction, no matter how big/small it is. If you're dealing significant dmg to help speed things up (and tank), that's all anyone can ask for.

People need to stop using that argument. PLD does not need to deal more damage. Right now PLDs aren't used, because right now the game is unbalanced, not the job. Old content is, well, old, and not much of a challenge either way. New content is Abyssea, and thus not a challenge at all. Talking about balance in these times is pointless, there's nothing SE will do, because there's no point. All they need to do is wait, or rather, that's all we need to do. Once there's new content coming out, WHM won't be able to tank anymore, and the demand for PLDs will rise again.

Old content is easy because of the low level, so anything can be blink or even blood tanked by pretty much any job. It's why no one set up a 6-man party at 75 to kill Leaping Lizzy, there was simply no need for it. Current content is high level, but easy because of ridiculously overpowered buffs. All we have to do now, is hope that SE introduces new content, that is a combination of both: high level, but no crazy buffs. Then damage mitigation will be an issue again, or more precisely MP conservation. That will be the justification you're looking for.

Abyssea is just a temporary thing, it was nothing but that from day one. Something to hold us over until final end game content is introduced. Getting so worked up over it is pointless, just use this time to pimp out your PLD for when it gets to shine again.

On topic though, I realized I didn't even post it here, enmity is still broken as it is now (even outside of Abyssea, and it will be on higher-level content as well). I made a new suggestion to modify the current enmity system here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5603-Enmity). Uncapped enmity is the only real way to go in my opinion, it would fix a lot of the problems the current enmity system holds.


And as the icing on the cake, how about a little perspective?
Even RDM has Composure (it's used for buff duration, but it does give them accuracy.)

That helps their damage about as much as Shield Bash and Reprisal do to our own, even if those don't count for enmity. Just saying, a little Accuracy boost can't be called a DD ability. RDM was just always an odd job at that.

[Greatguardian]

For some reason you really do seem to think Paladin takes less damage than other jobs.

It doesn't. Not without an Ochain. But, that said, Ochain is just brokenly awesome to begin with.

[Aeonk]

Tell me something Arcon... do you really think this DD tank mentallity is going to go away?

It wasn't just abyssea that created this imbalance. It was also the cap increase. Your WHM's have convert, your RDM's have Refresh 2, BRDs with Ballad 3, etc.

With a little support in the MP department, the MNK tank will live on post abyssea.

That's why this problem needs to be addressed now. Not wait for SE to offer it up on a silver plater. And considering we just got skipped over in favor of buffing DRK (and a potential nerf in crit WS's, which hurts us further).... I wouldn't hold your breathe waiting for an answer.

[Charismatic]

(and a potential nerf in crit WS's, which hurts us further)

No, it's already been addressed here on the forums... that's going to apply to enemies only.
Otherwise I agree with your post.

Let's also not forget that our white mages have up to +7MP per tic (without using stuff like poison taster's cape, etc) in idle gear nowadays.

[Cursed]

SE will only fix PLD when their are enough "PLD is dead" cries.
Problem is, every time we get a rally started, someone comes onto these forums and starts the "NO PLD IS NOT DEAD I HAVE THE SOLUTION" derail.
I've been tanking since 2003. PLD is not ok the way it is now. The current reality makes Earth Staffed Byakko and Seiryu days look like the golden age.
PLD IS DEAD.

[Greatguardian]

SE will only fix PLD when their are enough "PLD is dead" cries.
Problem is, every time we get a rally started, someone comes onto these forums and starts the "NO PLD IS NOT DEAD I HAVE THE SOLUTION" derail.
I've been tanking since 2003. PLD is not ok the way it is now. The current reality makes Earth Staffed Byakko and Seiryu days look like the golden age.
PLD IS DEAD.

Pld is not dead. I have the solution.

Dead horse. Beaten. I promise the "Krystal method" of "Scream loud enough and make enough threads and eventually they'll fix it" doesn't work. It's just obnoxious.

[Mirage]

To fix PLD, the game needs bosses where PLDs are required for a safe victory. Which means we'd need a mob that has enough accuracy to cap evasion against a lv90 thief with 100+ evasion in gear and capped, merited evasion skill. Along with that, it would have to hit so fast that 5 shadows would be eaten long before before either utsusemis could be recast. It would also have to hit so hard against jobs that weren't purely geared for defence that the mages wouldn't be able to keep their HP at safe levels.

Or something like that. I don't have either pld or nin above 50.

Btw i don't know how much evasion you can stack on thf, 100 sounded like a lot but i'm not sure!

[Greatguardian]

To fix PLD, the game needs bosses where PLDs are required for a safe victory. Which means we'd need a mob that has enough accuracy to cap evasion against a lv90 thief with 100+ evasion in gear and capped, merited evasion skill. Along with that, it would have to hit so fast that 5 shadows would be eaten long before before either utsusemis could be recast. It would also have to hit so hard against jobs that weren't purely geared for defence that the mages wouldn't be able to keep their HP at safe levels.

Or something like that. I don't have either pld or nin above 50.

Btw i don't know how much evasion you can stack on thf, 100 sounded like a lot but i'm not sure!

A mob like that would be better tanked by a DRK, MNK, or RDM long, long, long before a Paladin. Defense is worthless. Bloodtanking on PLD is worthless. Any "PLD tanking" that involves PLD/WAR is going to be worthless. It's harsh, and I apologize for that, but it's the truth and there's no need to reiterate in detail why bloodtanking is bad every time someone posts about bloodtanking/defense.

[Mirage]

Then maybe they should change the defense to actually do something.

[Charismatic]

Or maybe they should just give PLD some offensive options/traits that utilize some of the unique tools we have now and call it a day, because... honestly, that would fix all the problems that we currently have.

[Arcon]

A mob like that would be better tanked by a DRK, MNK, or RDM long, long, long before a Paladin. Defense is worthless. Bloodtanking on PLD is worthless. Any "PLD tanking" that involves PLD/WAR is going to be worthless. It's harsh, and I apologize for that, but it's the truth and there's no need to reiterate in detail why bloodtanking is bad every time someone posts about bloodtanking/defense.

It's harsh alright, but I still fail to see the truth part. PLD is a great defensive tank and takes less damage than all these jobs, MNK may be arguable (and situational), but especially with new PLD gear I'm positive they would still take less damage in most cases. And Defense does play a role, if not a huge one. As I mentioned before, Defense needs to be adjusted to provide more of a difference, it's a flaw with the game, not with PLD. Still, PLD has plenty of JAs and spells and especially equipment that drastically reduce the amount of damage they take. Shield blocks play a huge role in that, enhanced a lot by Reprisal. Phalanx helps a good deal on certain mobs as well. Sentinel and Rampart are great, although obviously on a timer. Even Flash helps, I've avoided more than one hard hitting TP move in my time with that.

And check out their gear, even without Ochain/Aegis. AF3 set reduces up to 15% damage, not counting the high Defense, Vitality, Shield Skill, Shield Defense Bonus and an absorb effect, which is another factor (5%, which does not count towards the cap), which adds even more in damage taken over time calculations, since it actually cures you. This is especially nice in solo situations, or lowman without a healer, when damage taken over time matters a lot more. I've seen a PLD solo King Arthro at 75, I don't think a MNK could have pulled that off, even spamming Hi-Potions, which still wouldn't be the same.

I doubt a lot of people have tried PLD tanking in Abyssea, because there's simply no need for it. But calling it worthless is just wrong. I've blood tanked inside and outside of Abyssea with 100% success as far as I can recall. Even if it's not the best option in many cases, how does that make it worthless? Maybe your definition of that word simply differs from the actual definition, without value/merit, not contributing. Both of these things are objectively wrong for PLD tanking. This is not a matter of opinion. And it's not the first time you deemed something that isn't the absolute perfect solution worthless.


Or maybe they should just give PLD some offensive options/traits that utilize some of the unique tools we have now and call it a day, because... honestly, that would fix all the problems that we currently have.

Arguable, personally I don't wanna deal damage comparable to any actual damage dealer. It may be a solution, but not one I'd be happy with. Rather improve the tanking aspect, or rather, reestablish the tanking aspect, as it's been lost in the depths of Abyssea. These days people call any DD that can keep hate through cure spams a tank. This definition is the only thing that's wrong with PLD's standing in the game. Once actual tanking will have a meaning again, PLD will be sought out again.

[Greatguardian]

After reading and responding to enough of your walls of text I'm going to be brief this time. Monk, Dark Knight, and Red Mage all have better defensive gear and take less damage than Paladin when bloodtanking (bar Ochain, the exception is not the rule). This is cold, hard fact.

Dark Knight and Red Mage can wear all of the same (or Better, in RDM's case) PDT armor as Paladin, with Red Mage getting a stronger Phalanx, the ability to wear a Terra's without penalty, native Stoneskin/Aquaveil/Haste, and Fast Cast. Dark Knight has Dread Spikes, the same Bashes as Paladin, Drains, Stuns, and the ability to utilize Seigan on their best DD sub if they do not need to sub NIN. Dark Knight has been a stronger tank than Paladin since 2007.

Monk has even better -PDT gear than Paladin, more HP, and a JA which reduces incoming non-TP/Magic damage taken by 75%. In the world of Bloodtanking, Monk is king.

Paladin has, what, Defense Bonus JT? Their AF3+2 absorb rate? Non-Ochain Shields?

Both your argument and Mirage's rely on Changing the value of Defense to make Paladin more useful. I am simply using the current value of Defense and making an assessment. You talk about adding stronger monsters that require a real Tank, but Paladin is not even the best "Tank" in the game. It was not even Abyssea that changed this. Paladin declined when players realized that any good player on any job can tank anything in the game. Abyssea only allowed more players to take on a "good player" mentality. That is all it did. It did not make it any easier for Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight to tank circles around Paladin.

That said, considering pretty much every single fix you've advocated for Paladin involves changing fundamental game mechanics instead of actually adjusting the Paladin job, I'm sure this will just fall on deaf ears. Let's just assume you and I will never agree. I want a realistic job change that addresses the issues Paladin has inside its current working environment. You want to change the working environment of the game in order to make Paladin more favorable. That's that. They're not compatible.

[Charismatic]

Exactly, Greatguardian... and we've learned throughout the years that the best way to establish and maintain enmity is through damage. Why, then, should a tanking job not utilize this? I'm wondering why there are Paladins out there who don't want to do damage. What benefit is there to not doing it?
What I'd like to see from Square is a way to take the current Paladin playstyle and take some of our abilities and modify them to do damage in a unique way.
Perhaps a spell that shares a timer with Flash (similar to Despoil, Spirit Jump and Soul Jump) and performs a similar function. High enmity gain, and a very potent blind effect, but at the same time... it could do damage.
Perhaps damage following the drain formula and the blind effect could work similar to the SCH Helix spells (with a slightly longer duration than flash's blindness currently has), of course the additional damage wouldn't cause any hate but it could be a high enmity spell perhaps modified by the damage done by the initial strike... oh, and to make it a little more attractive, unlike many other damaging abilities... this one wouldn't give the enemy any TP to keep it in line with the current Flash spell.

Perhaps Rampart's magical shield could absorb damage and Paladin could be given an ability similar to disgorge that shoots out that stored up energy? But if that were done I'd say it should only be the damage from the most recent usage of Rampart.

I mean, I came up with this stuff in like 2 minutes. If there were a team of guys at square thinking on this, I'm sure they could come up with something better. We don't necessarily have to hit super hard with our swords to do damage, but we should be doing damage.

[Arcon]

After reading and responding to enough of your walls of text I'm going to be brief this time. Monk, Dark Knight, and Red Mage all have better defensive gear and take less damage than Paladin when bloodtanking (bar Ochain, the exception is not the rule). This is cold, hard fact.

No, it's arguable. The "taking less damage" part, that is. The better defensive gear part is just wrong. Paladin's have the best defensive gear of any job available. Why you fail to see this I don't know. What does DRK have on PLD? Nothing. What does PLD have on DRK? AF3+2 body and legs, a shield and generally higher defense gear. What does RDM have on PLD? Umbra Cape and, depending on how you play, a weapon to mitigate damage (which PLD can also use in the form of sword/shield, maintaining its usefulness, or even staff (and Eisen Grip), if shield blocks aren't required). What does PLD have on RDM? AF3+2 body and legs, Ruffian Leggings and Nierenschutz. Not to mention Metallon Mantle is almost as good as Umbra Cape. What does MNK have on PLD? Arhat's Jinpachi +1 and Black Belt. What does PLD have on MNK? AF3+2 body and legs, Metallon Mantle, Ruffian Leggings, Heavy Gauntlets. That's just the job-exclusive slots, of course there's more overall, but since all jobs can share those, it hardly matters. And it's not even taking the absorb rate into account, strictly PDT. With the additional absorb rate could save even more damage (and it goes over cap too, which may also apply to the AF3+2 body's effect).

The question is now if shield blocks (which, alone, almost make up for most damage mitigating abilities from other jobs), almost equally strong Phalanx (4 damage less absorbed, considering generous RDM gear, not to mention Phalanx gets more useful, the less damage players take), Reprisal, Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, Defense Bonus, Shield Defense Bonus, Critical Defense Bonus and Shield Mastery outweigh a marginally stronger Phalanx, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Haste, Refresh II and Fast Cast (Haste and Refresh or Refresh II are usually cast on the PLD as well, at least in a group situation), or Dread Spikes, Stun, Drain and Weapon Bash in the DRK's case, and Counterstance in MNK's case (although that may be considered blink tanking, as you're sacrificing defense for a chance to not take damage at all). And that's where the terms "arguable" and "situational" come in.

It should be noted that I never even said those jobs aren't great tanks (we had a RDM main tank in our LS, I was co/backup-tank as a career PLD, and a MNK that would put most PLDs to shame in terms of survival). I just find your (repeated) dismissal of PLD as a worthless tank a completely groundless statement. Not to mention misinformation about gear and taking damage. If you find anything wrong with the gear I posted above or any alternative pieces I missed, feel free to correct me.


That said, considering pretty much every single fix you've advocated for Paladin involves changing fundamental game mechanics instead of actually adjusting the Paladin job, I'm sure this will just fall on deaf ears. Let's just assume you and I will never agree. I want a realistic job change that addresses the issues Paladin has inside its current working environment. You want to change the working environment of the game in order to make Paladin more favorable. That's that. They're not compatible.

Honestly, right now I can't even remember reading what you suggested for PLD. The reason I advocate changes to the game is because I feel that nothing is inherently wrong with PLD itself. Defense on the other hand is simply underrated as a defensive stat (as you admitted yourself). Enmity issues cannot be solved by simply doing more damage or getting higher enmity spells. That's why I wanna change those two aspects, it's nothing PLD specific in either case.


I'm wondering why there are Paladins out there who don't want to do damage. What benefit is there to not doing it?

Because I'm looking at it from a role-playing point of view. Paladins are meant to be defensive, not offensive. I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing any damage at all (they are knights after all), I said they shouldn't be comparable to actual damage dealers, which is what they would be required to be, if they wanna keep up on tanking these days. I was perfectly happy with Atonement, it was a moderate attack, way above PLD's average, yet below good damage dealers' capabilities. That beig said, I wouldn't mind something similar again, I just don't want them to be just another DD.

[Zagen]

I doubt a lot of people have tried PLD tanking in Abyssea, because there's simply no need for it. But calling it worthless is just wrong. I've blood tanked inside and outside of Abyssea with 100% success as far as I can recall. Even if it's not the best option in many cases, how does that make it worthless? Maybe your definition of that word simply differs from the actual definition, without value/merit, not contributing. Both of these things are objectively wrong for PLD tanking. This is not a matter of opinion. And it's not the first time you deemed something that isn't the absolute perfect solution worthless.
I've done it, my PLD is better geared than my MNK overall and I will tell you this much PLD does it slower and worse. Less damage dealt means the NMs live longer and it is harder to recap hate. Dealt more damage causing my WHM to spend much more MP than if I was on MNK. The MP on a WHM is near limitless but it isn't limitless.

Edit: Dealt more damage excluding monsters such as Ironclads where all hits are TP moves.

I love PLD and am working toward Almace/Ochain but even I know and I'll admit my other job options just tank better currently under the same circumstances inside or outside of Abyssea.

[Darka]

No, it's arguable. The "taking less damage" part, that is. The better defensive gear part is just wrong. Paladin's have the best defensive gear of any job available. Why you fail to see this I don't know. What does DRK have on PLD? Nothing. What does PLD have on DRK? AF3+2 body and legs, a shield and generally higher defense gear. What does RDM have on PLD? Umbra Cape and, depending on how you play, a weapon to mitigate damage (which PLD can also use in the form of sword/shield, maintaining its usefulness, or even staff (and Eisen Grip), if shield blocks aren't required). What does PLD have on RDM? AF3+2 body and legs, Ruffian Leggings and Nierenschutz. Not to mention Metallon Mantle is almost as good as Umbra Cape. What does MNK have on PLD? Arhat's Jinpachi +1 and Black Belt. What does PLD have on MNK? AF3+2 body and legs, Metallon Mantle, Ruffian Leggings, Heavy Gauntlets. That's just the job-exclusive slots, of course there's more overall, but since all jobs can share those, it hardly matters. And it's not even taking the absorb rate into account, strictly PDT. With the additional absorb rate could save even more damage (and it goes over cap too, which may also apply to the AF3+2 body's effect).


Outside of shield blocks, almost every job can match and some beat PLD in defensive abilities. Plenty of options for most jobs to hit 50%PDT and MDT. MNK has counterstance, which procs a lot more than shield does (Ochain being an exception of course), SAM has Seigan and Third Eye, RDM has Stoneskin, DRK has Stun for reliable recasts, all of which can /NIN, even /SAM for 2 handers is a reliable defensive tool. Shield blocks are too much of a variable even with capped skill to compare it with those abilities, unless of course Ochain. Also the set bonus is around ~5%, and using the full set over PDT swaps is in the long run less optimal.

Sentinel is a whole 30 seconds of diminishing PDT, used more often for it's enmity boost rather than defense unless it's a critical situation, shield def bonus relies on the shield variable, and crit def bonus is small. I'm not saying PLD doesn't have a lot of defensive abilities, but most of them are minimal gains, and don't set it apart significantly from other jobs, besides shield (which kinda loses some value if /NIN).

[Judge]

Kind of seeing this "limited thinking" over and over again in this thread and others. Why should everyone have to level MNK or NIN to tank something if they already have PLD as an option. PLD isn't worthless. it just lacks the advantages given to DD's since the 75 cap was removed. PLD can tank, although it may be slower due to damage dealing limits. People are entitled to their choices of jobs. And of course there is situations that require a different approach to be optimal.. but that doesn't mean everything has to be done in a pre-determined strategy.

If ur a good player.. then using PLD as an option won't matter. there is going to be some work involved on any hard mob. and if the mob isn't hard.. then why argue who tanks better? Either you work for it.. or you want Easy button fights... for that matter i would just toss BST at it and go grill a steak while my pet does the work for me.

Outside of abyssea has changed in only the aspect that players have higher base stats and higher skill caps than before with the same mobs/stats. SE will either come around and re-balance it.. or we will have to deal with DD jobs that have reached a level of "too much power".

[Zagen]

Outside of abyssea has changed in only the aspect that players have higher base stats and higher skill caps than before with the same mobs/stats. SE will either come around and re-balance it.. or we will have to deal with DD jobs that have reached a level of "too much power".

Don't forget that the level penalty is gone or no longer a big issue as most HNMs are Even Match at best level wise now. Considering a lot of gear from Sky, Land Kings, etc is beaten by Emp +1 and SE said that even with Synergy upgrades at best you'd match Emp+1 I highly doubt they will waste time re-balancing old content.

[Aeonk]

This is how you fix PLD in and out of abyssea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oKh0yEGC2M

[Charismatic]

By getting two empyreans? Why doesn't every other job require empyreans to be 'fixed'?
Come on, that's not a true solution and you know it.

[Cursed]

Pld is not dead. I have the solution.

Dead horse. Beaten. I promise the "Krystal method" of "Scream loud enough and make enough threads and eventually they'll fix it" doesn't work. It's just obnoxious.

You're 100% wrong about that.
The establishment of these forums, although late, came for that VERY PURPOSE. To listen to the player's feedback. Get used to SE fine tuning things to the player's desires. Maybe you haven't played FFXI long enough, or know how SE used to be like, to understand or comprehend just how significant a change like abyssea and the introduction of these forums is.
How is PLD not dead? Its more useless than PUP, more useless than BST, and offers nothing to a party or alliance. There are at least 2 Jobs that can do everything PLD can do better.
DMG mitigation : MNK, DNC and NIN and even SAM will take far less dmg than a PLD will.
Enmity/hate Control: Anything in the game, including post Gimped CE RDM, will control hate better than a PLD just through Tier 3 nukes and curing. Heck even a SMN's pet can hold hate better. BLM is a better hate control tank than PLD.
Kiting: BLM and RDM will outkite PLD, WAR Probably too.
Soloing: BST/PUP/MNK/NIN/RDM/DNC got PLD beat down. Only Ochain raises PLD's ability to solo like these other jobs. I'm not saying PLD can't solo, it can. I've soloed a lot of things on my lolpld such as Cerberus @ 80, Khim @ 80, Fafnir @85, and trioed Jorm at 75. Those same jobs above could have soloed/duoed all these NMs, much faster and they have.

Tell me, do you think PLD can solo Dark Ixion? an Ochain/Almace PLD with 10 others took 87 minutes yesterday to kill it as Lv.90's, because they were trying to make sure the PLD kept hate. They had masumanes/vere/ukons/gandivas and some pimp ass blues. The day before, me(vere mnk/dnc), Masamune sam/dnc and a ukon war/sam downed Dark Ixion in 8 minutes cuz we weren't being idiots and didn't have a PLD in party who would cry about letting him hold hate.
Upbeat solos Dark Ixion as NIN/RDM. You think an Ochain/Almace PLD can do that?
Give pld enfeebling JAs/Spells that don't require MP and just gil, and MAYBE PLD can.

PLD IS DEAD.

[Aeonk]

By getting two empyreans? Why doesn't every other job require empyreans to be 'fixed'?
Come on, that's not a true solution and you know it.
Unfair I know. But that is the only solution available to us at this point. Why do you think I've been pushing for a dmg upgrade all this time? It shouldn't require this much effort to recreate what other jobs like MNK or NIN are capable of doing (although Ochain does it better.)

@ Cursed:
Go take a look at that video so you can see just how wrong you are about PLD. You're calling PLD dead because it's no longer the master tank against old HNM's like Fafnir? Seriously?

[Habiki]

One thing that might help Paladin is adjusting their spells and and Job abilities to have some cumulative enmity on them instead of just volatile enmity.

[Darka]

One thing that might help Paladin is adjusting their spells and and Job abilities to have some cumulative enmity on them instead of just volatile enmity.

Flash and Cures generate CE. More enmity tools is not the problem with PLD.

[Zagen]

Flash and Cures generate CE. More enmity tools is not the problem with PLD.
Most of the time less CE than the damage from meleeing in the time lost casting those spells. The VE spike is why Flash is still useful.

[Arlan]

They should make PLD have an ability that you can be use every 2 minutes and that lasts every 1minute that allows you to take only 20-30 Damage every hit from NMs or w/e... But it should cost MP since your going to be using more of this ability than your Cures.

Also another ability that also lets you hold hate for 4min but can be used every 5 min. (This one doesn't need to consume MP)
This way, PLD will become the best tanks PERIOD... And we still need to consume MP since we dont want that to be a waste to have. lol idk... Thf and Nin are over powered in abyssea so why not make us PLD have something equal to that but in a different sense? people would so want us.

[Zagen]

Also another ability that also lets you hold hate for 4min but can be used every 5 min. (This one doesn't need to consume MP)
This way, PLD will become the best tanks PERIOD... And we still need to consume MP since we dont want that to be a waste to have. lol idk... Thf and Nin are over powered in abyssea so why not make us PLD have something equal to that but in a different sense? people would so want us.

It isn't just THF and NIN its the fact every DD job is a better tank. Just holding hate doesn't make a good tank anymore, a PLD can do that, any DD can do that. The difference is the DD will get things killed faster than PLD while still "holding hate".

[Brillen]

From what I've gathered, it seems the easiest fix would be to increase damage output from enemies. That way pseudo tank jobs would be difficult to keep alive, while a PLD would be able to easily live through it.

[Cursed]

There's one NM in Abyssea that hits hard enough to warrant melee being carefull, and that's Valdean the ladybug.
Oh boy! I messed up bad going into that fight as MNK/WAR zerked/Counterstanced/hasted and opening with a victory smite. lol that mob is lethal!

[Greatguardian]

From what I've gathered, it seems the easiest fix would be to increase damage output from enemies. That way pseudo tank jobs would be difficult to keep alive, while a PLD would be able to easily live through it.

The problem is that if a good Paladin can live through it, a good Monk, Dark Knight, Samurai, or Red mage (at the least) could live through it too. Considering the "Tank to beat" right now is Monk, that's not really doing much for Paladin. Unless, of course, we're talking Ochain Paladins being required to tank anything. In that case, they'd definitely be necessary, but I don't really see many Ochian Paladins complaining right now anyways.

[Zagen]

There's one NM in Abyssea that hits hard enough to warrant melee being carefull, and that's Valdean the ladybug.
Oh boy! I messed up bad going into that fight as MNK/WAR zerked/Counterstanced/hasted and opening with a victory smite. lol that mob is lethal!
Doesn't that NM have crazy evasion? Which would lessen the effectiveness of counter tanking if you aren't capped on ACC. I haven't actually fought it just heard nightmares about it's evasion.

[Cursed]

Doesn't that NM have crazy evasion? Which would lessen the effectiveness of counter tanking if you aren't capped on ACC. I haven't actually fought it just heard nightmares about it's evasion.

I'd never fought it before, so had no idea what its evasion was like. Since Abyssea, I've kinda just stopped actually planning things. Pop it, proc it, kill it. Grinding empyreans weapons/shields will do that to you after 3-4 months.
When the game, if the game, goes outside again I'm going to be noobing it up for a good week or so getting used to old-end game's attention requirements. But, at least i have almost a decade's worth of experience outside Abyssea. Some of the people that play today, have only ever known nation missions and abyssea.