Dear SE: STOP AVOIDING IT.

[hideka]

seriously. summoner has not had a legitimate update in over what, three years ago when you added in Favors and new BPs?

please stop neglecting summoner.

we were promised new avatars.
we are at the absolute BOTTOM OF THE BARREL FOR DAMAGE AND SUPPORT. our DPS is right around what "Decent" Dps was at level 75 cap. only one other job in this game is as neglected as summoner, and that is redmage.

Summoner is so far behind the curve it is disgusting. no matter what summoner does, there is another job that can do it more effectively.


PET BALANCE:
Summoner Pet:
Durability: c
Disposability: B
Endurance: D
Damage output: D
Enhancing output: B
Healing: D

Beastmaster pet:
Durability: A
Disposability:C
Endurance:S
Damage output: S
Enhancing output: F
Healing: F

Puppetmaster pet (All frames factored):
Durability:C
Disposability: S
Endurance: B
Damage output: A
Enhancing Output: B
Healing: S

Currently Scholar, Geo, RDM WHM, can provide ALL of the same Buffs that Summoner can provide, and with equal efficacy. we lack any true uniqueness to our job anymore.

Please stop avoiding this job and make some drastic improvements to it.

[Alhanelem]

inbe4 moved to summoner board :p

Your arbitrary ratings are based on nothing but your opinions and some are flat out wrong. Are you really trying to tell me that a pet that has a wait time of up to a minute to resummon is more disposable than a pet that has a 8 second recast?

You can not throw puppets at mobs like you can throw avatars at them. This fact alone is why SMN (and BST) are highly preferable for these circumstances (e.g. walk of echoes)

SE hasn't been avoiding summoner and has made some adjustment or another in almost every update which contains job adjustments.

If nothing else we certainly know we have a good 2nd SP ability coming.

The only thing they HAVE been avoiding, which I AM bitter about, is Cait Sith and Atomos. They announced those well over a year ago and there's still no sign that they're coming.

one more edit: Let me ask one more question: Of these three jobs, which one is the most asked for by the community for any content? Answer: Summoner.

[Demon6324236]

one more edit: Let me ask one more question: Of these three jobs, which one is the most asked for by the community for any content? Answer: Summoner.People do not ask for Summoner, they ask for Perfect Defense, just like most groups do not ask for SCH, they ask for Embrava. Completely remove PD, then see how many groups ask for a SMN, that will show you the jobs true worth, when you can take a single ability from a job and it falls apart, the job itself is broken.

[RAIST]

inbe4 moved to summoner board :p

Your arbitrary ratings are based on nothing but your opinions and some are flat out wrong. Are you really trying to tell me that a pet that has a wait time of up to a minute to resummon is more disposable than a pet that has a 8 second recast?

You can not throw puppets at mobs like you can throw avatars at them. This fact alone is why SMN (and BST) are highly preferable for these circumstances (e.g. walk of echoes)

SE hasn't been avoiding summoner and has made some adjustment or another in almost every update which contains job adjustments.

If nothing else we certainly know we have a good 2nd SP ability coming.

The only thing they HAVE been avoiding, which I AM bitter about, is Cait Sith and Atomos. They announced those well over a year ago and there's still no sign that they're coming.

one more edit: Let me ask one more question: Of these three jobs, which one is the most asked for by the community for any content? Answer: Summoner.



The job in general is considerably less useful now though because of the recent adjustments (not just SMN was affected--I realize it's all pet jobs, but this thread is about SMN).

SE needs to stop turning out drastic changes like this without more thoroughly testing the impact it will have in an actual playing environment.

And seriously...making us deal with this crap for a month or longer is ridiculous. FIX IT!!!

[Alhanelem]

People do not ask for Summoner, they ask for Perfect Defense, just like most groups do not ask for SCH, they ask for Embrava.This is irrelevant. They ask for the job because it has something useful they need. What better reason is there? So people want SMN because it has PD; People want SCH because it has Embrava. People want BST because it has... I can't think of anything. Both inside and outside of your narrow little view, SMN is a perfectly useable job for various activities and pretty much beats the other two out.

BST has a more durable pet, that's about all it offers. SMN offers a wide range of support effects beyond just perfect defense that are useful. PUP is not all that effective at supporting anyone other than itself - I'm not knocking the job, it's my favorite and I think its a great soloer and a good DPS when people allow it to participate - but SMN simply has more utility at events than either job.


The job in general is considerably less useful now though because of the recent adjustments (not just SMN was affected--I realize it's all pet jobs, but this thread is about SMN).The recent adjustments don't really affect SMN's applications in groups/events- only solo. I also beileve that the enmity issue was an unintended side effect and will be fixed.

[RAIST]

This is irrelevant. They ask for the job because it has something useful they need. What better reason is there? So people want SMN because it has PD; People want SCH because it has Embrava. People want BST because it has... I can't think of anything. Both inside and outside of your narrow little view, SMN is a perfectly useable job for various activities and pretty much beats the other two out.

BST has a more durable pet, that's about all it offers. SMN offers a wide range of support effects beyond just perfect defense that are useful. PUP is not all that effective at supporting anyone other than itself - I'm not knocking the job, it's my favorite and I think its a great soloer and a good DPS when people allow it to participate - but SMN simply has more utility at events than either job.

The recent adjustments don't really affect SMN's applications in groups/events- only solo. I also beileve that the enmity issue was an unintended side effect and will be fixed.

Actually, it does affect group play for pet jobs. Though the pet can still grab hate briefly like it always has, but then that hate scatters (some say worse than it was before). I've witnessed this myself on several fights in the new areas...in many cases they've been relegated to basically sitting idle to provide support while someone else tanks the mob. At best, can BP, and retreat (sometimes you have to do this because using your BP on top of casting buff/cures will cause you to grab hate, making the avatar auto attack, feeding the mob TP for pitiful damage output).

They broke how some pet jobs function with the recent updates, and need to fix it.

[Alhanelem]

Actually, it does affect group play for pet jobs. Though the pet can still grab hate briefly like it always has, but then that hate scatters (some say worse than it was before). I've witnessed this myself on several fights in the new areas...in many cases they've been relegated to basically sitting idle to provide support while someone else tanks the mob. At best, can BP, and retreat (sometimes you have to do this because using your BP on top of casting buff/cures will cause you to grab hate, making the avatar auto attack, feeding the mob TP for pitiful damage output).

They broke how pet jobs function with the recent updates, and need to fix it.
I've never been to a group event other than Walk of Echoes where summoners ever needed to pull hate off anything. And in Walk of Echoes, it's all summoners and beastmasters, so if one pet doesn't have hate, it's another. This issue only really manifests in solo play and occasionally in Rieves.

Regardless, this isn't a summoner specific issue.

[Demon6324236]

Both inside and outside of your narrow little view, SMN is a perfectly useable job for various activities and pretty much beats the other two out.My view is no job should fall apart because of not having a single ability or spell, or be useful for that single reason either. Jobs should have more than a single function in a party, meaning, I should not bring a SMN just for PD, or a SCH just for Embrava, that is not the only thing that should make it stand out. Look at COR, sure we use COR for Wildcard, but we also use it for some ranged/magical damage and also for its unique buffs which stack with every other jobs buffs, take away WC, and its still a useful job, take away its gun, and its still a useful job. Take away SMN's PD, its a job no one wants around, take away SCH's Embrava, its a job no one wants around, these are flaws. Even with the PD nerf, nothing changed, people still use PD, just in smaller bursts, even with the Embrava change, people just deal with less DPS, unlike SMN though SCH has chainstuns still at least, no, they are not as fast, but they are still fast and accurate, what else did SMN have to fall back on in groups though?

[Alhanelem]

My view is no job should fall apart because of not having a single ability or spell, or be useful for that single reason either.using your logic, WHM shouldn't fall apart because of someone not having all the cure spells, or a BLM or SCH not having the tier V nukes, or a corsair not having a certain die that they need, or BRD not having the latest minuet or madrigal.

People are not unreasonable to ask that someone come on a job have all their necessary abilities learned.

[Demon6324236]

using your logic, WHM shouldn't fall apart because of not having cure IV-VI.Looks like you are taking away 3 spells, not one, and you are taking away the main feature of the job, curing, making your party immune to most damage and ailment is not the main feature of SMN as a job, it is the feature of Alexander, a single summon out of the 19 we currently have. I hope you see the difference here. Take away Cure 6 and WHM is still awesome because of stoneskin cures. WHM is not only good because of C5, C6, or AS, its used for multiple reasons, they are just a few of them.

[RAIST]

I've never been to a group event other than Walk of Echoes where summoners ever needed to pull hate off anything. And in Walk of Echoes, it's all summoners and beastmasters, so if one pet doesn't have hate, it's another. This issue only really manifests in solo play and occasionally in Rieves.

Regardless, this isn't a summoner specific issue.

I never said a SMN NEEDED to pull hate. I said it CAN pull hate like it always has. And also, I already noted it isn't a SMN related issue, but this thread is about SMN.

The problem now is that pet jobs can make it easier to scatter hate. The new imbalance between pet and master hate generation is causing too many problems across the board in the new, more relevant content...to the point that pets grabbing hate sometimes causes more problems than it ever has before.

Pet jobs can actually screw up a fight now because once the hate is taken and then lost to the pet, hate now has an even greater opportunity to scatter. In the case of SMN, when the master winds up seating the top of the hate list even briefly, they get pummeled...couple that with the new ATT/DEF adjustments, it puts them in considerable jeopardy after just a few hits (crappy armor). Then they have to be rebuffed/regened/cured/etc., which can cause more hate spiking according to who is doing what. And round and round it goes. Already had to redo fights and have the pet jobs just sit there and basically do nothing for long stretches. How does that encourage use of a jobs, when you know you will have to tell them to sit there like a knot on a log?

And I know it's not just SMN...PUP has issues with hate with some of their Auto's. Put them both in a party, both facing the hate issues...oh boy. But again, this thread is about SMN, so was commenting mostly on just experiences with SMN.

This is why (in the scope of what's new) pet jobs are becoming less affective than before--they pose a greater risk. In older content where there is less danger in the first place, may not be as much of an impact. But in the NEW content...it IS a problem that NEEDS to be addressed.

[Alhanelem]

Pets arent the only things adversely affected by the enmity adjustments. I'm sure they are continuing to look at the issue and as I said, this isn't a SMN specific issue, in a thread complaining about how inferior SMN is to other pet jobs- which is just untrue.

[RAIST]

Pets arent the only things adversely affected by the enmity adjustments. I'm sure they are continuing to look at the issue and as I said, this isn't a SMN specific issue, in a thread complaining about how inferior SMN is to other pet jobs- which is just untrue.

But a lot of what is wrong with SMN is tied to what the OP is talking about. Weak stats cause the avatars to bleed their hate a lot faster than before. Meanwhile, the master appears to be able to generate hate at an accelerated rate (but this may be due to the imbalances now). Having weak stats on the avatars also affects their ability to generate hate as effectively as well. Tweaking avatars to make them more effective in combat could go a long way to alleviating some of the problem. If an avatar is able to better maintain hate over it's master, a lot of the issue is resolved.

[Jaall]

I actually think the only job truly neglected in this game is DRG, for reasons I really don't know. SMN isn't all that bad and does get asked for in a lot of events and like people have said, WoE is one of the places where SMN shines. DRG on the other hand is never asked for and has no true distinct advantage or at least a place where its one advantage (wyvern heals) is particularly useful, and yet SE will not improve the job. The most we've seen for DRG since 2007 was extra jumps which are effectively just revamps of the old ones that share the same timer, and a couple more pet abilities that allow us to control it more as the pet it is. I do like these updates but what I'm saying is you complain about SMN being the only job neglected along with RDM but there are a few others out there who have it a whole lot worse. You see people shouting for a SMN occasionally but I doubt you've ever seen someone actively shouting for a DRG.

[Alhanelem]

But a lot of what is wrong with SMN is tied to what the OP is talking about. I understand this, but it's NOT A SUMMONER SPECIFIC ISSUE. It affects all pet jobs. It's also not a design decision for the job, but rather a bug / unintended side effect of non-job-specific adjustments.


Looks like you are taking away 3 spells, not one, and you are taking away the main feature of the job, curing, making your party immune to most damage and ailment is not the main feature of SMN as a job, it is the feature of Alexander, a single summon out of the 19 we currently have. I hope you see the difference here. Take away Cure 6 and WHM is still awesome because of stoneskin cures. WHM is not only good because of C5, C6, or AS, its used for multiple reasons, they are just a few of them.
You (and the people who 'liked' your post) missing the point. The quantity of things taken away is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with expecting people to have all their important spells and abilities- Whether it's one, three, ten, or a hundred.

How many dice do CORs use on a regular basis? just a few. How many indi/geo spells is GEO likely to use? just a few. SMN has no more right to complain about this than any other job.

Also, it's not like nothing else the SMN does while in that party giving PD will be useful at all.

[RAIST]

I understand this, but it's NOT A SUMMONER SPECIFIC ISSUE. It affects all pet jobs. It's also not a design decision for the job, but rather a bug / unintended side effect of non-job-specific adjustments.

Actually, yes there is a SMN specific issue at play here (and it does fit within the scope of the OP). Avatars have not scaled anywhere near as well as the other pet jobs, and thus they are more dramatically affected by the change. Fix the scaling issue with SMN pets, and a large part of the problem goes away.

For instance, even though other pet jobs have issues with enmity generation and decay, they have more effective ways of managing it (Snarl, etc.)...whereas SMN has nothing outside of their BP's. If someone can't get hate back fast enough, and their BP doesn't get them out of a fix (if it is even available when needed, seeing how that is part of what creates the problem), they are screwed. They can't survive nearly as long as other jobs when they are getting beat on, and they have virtually no reliable way to shed/transfer hate. This alone puts them on absurdly unequal footing in regards to the other jobs so greatly affected by these adjustments.

SE needs to either balance it for all jobs to put them on more equal footing again (fixing avatar stats can go a long way towards this end), or they need to implement a specific fix for SMN, because SMN has a unique disadvantage in this department compared to all the others.

[Alhanelem]

Actually, yes there is a SMN specific issue at play here (and it does fit within the scope of the OP). Avatars have not scaled anywhere near as well as the other pet jobs, and thus they are more dramatically affected by the change. Fix the scaling issue with SMN pets, and a large part of the problem goes away.It's NOT a summoenr specific issue- it's an issue with the enmity system as a whole, and when they fix the enmity issues, the SMN issue will go away. I totally agree it's CAUSES problems for SMN, but the root issue here is not SMN itself. It's the enmity system. Also you say it affects SMN more than the other pets, well that's poppycock. The only reason it doesn't affect PUP so greatly is Ventriloqouy and you don't typically try to make the pet tank in the first place.

THAT's what I'm saying. It's not intended to screw summoner, the changes weren't targeting it, it's simply poor planning/testing on their part.

This BUG also has nothing to do with why the OP was saying SMN sucks and is worse than the other pet jobs.

[Jackstin]

Guyz this is a serious discussion. You can tell because of the CAPITALISATION of certain WORDS.

Clearly Summoner is a neglected job, it's amazing that Al is arguing this.

On the other hand there are plenty of neglected jobs. I myself play as Dragoon and whilst I actually think with the right gear set up it can be a decent DD and an excellent speed-solo job, it can definitely be a bit gimp when it comes to party play.

That's why I also play WHM and THF. This game is now a multi-job game. No one is expecting you to level everything, but it's not beyond expectation that you should have 2 or 3 jobs with semi-decent gear.

[Karbuncle]

This is not directed at you Jack, But I'd like to mention if BST, PUP, or any of the other Neglected Jobs want to complain about their Neglect, they have a subforum for that. Don't need it shitting up the SMN Neglect thread, ya'll can make your own "We're neglected" threads.

I've mentioned this before, Just because there are multiple jobs that suck doesn't mean it has to become a "MY JOB SUCKS WORSE" debate every time one of them makes some noise.

SMN sucks, Perfect Defense is the Duck Tape holding the job together, with Shock Squall being a smidge of Super-Glue inbetween a crack. The job sucks. Offensively, defensively, everything about it is awful.

[Alhanelem]

Clearly Summoner is a neglected job, it's amazing that Al is arguing this.Summoner is not a neglected job. The job has seen tons of changes and updates over the years- probably more than most jobs. It's getting its fair share of attention. Whether that attention is producing the desired results is a matter of opinion, but it's laughable at best to argue that it's "neglected."

the word "neglected" implies that they have been completely ignoring it and making no changes, which really isn't true at all.


SMN sucks, Perfect Defense is the Duck Tape holding the job together, with Shock Squall being a smidge of Super-Glue inbetween a crack. The job sucks. Offensively, defensively, everything about it is awful. If it was so awful it wouldn't be so instrumental in certain events e.g. walk of echoes where PD isn't even why it's there. Exaggerating will not get the job improvements. Also, if it was really so "awful", you wouldn't be playing it (and calling yourself the "realer summoner").

The only problem that SMN truly has that is directly about SMN is the BP timer. it is capped at such a ridiculously high level at a time when the game is at its spammiest. There are plenty of useful ward effects available.

SMN has its issues, but it's not "awful."

[Jackstin]

Okay, neglected was clearly the wrong word, but you know what I was saying. In fact what I was saying was in agreement with your general sentiment. Is it any wonder you have a reputation as being a conservative argumentative ass hat?

EDIT: In fact I feel I have to clarify why I'm saying what I'm saying, in case it is taken as an attack without warrant.

If you agree that Summoner is weaker than intended, even if you don't agree that the job is totally worthless, what is the point in arguing? Do you really love being contrarian so much that you will argue against something you more or less agree with?

[Alhanelem]

Okay, neglected was clearly the wrong word, but you know what I was saying. In fact what I was saying was in agreement with your general sentiment. Is it any wonder you have a reputation as being a conservative argumentative ass hat?
lol... I'm not conservative at all. In fact, I to lean in the opposite direction. I'm more defensive than argumentative, because I'm usually under attack and forced into a defensive position. Rarely if ever am I the initiator of a conflict.

I also don't make personal attacks against others. So are we going to turn this into another let's gangbang on Al thread?


If you agree that Summoner is weaker than intended, even if you don't agree that the job is totally worthless, what is the point in arguing? Do you really love being contrarian so much that you will argue against something you more or less agree with? I don't love being "contrarian," and I don't love arguing. I participate in discussions because I have a genuine interest, not just to argue for the hell of it.

I really just don't see the implied undesireability of summoner, especially expressed as Karbuncle has. I find myself using it more since this expansion came out than I had in a long time prior. It's great in rieves in particular, where you can hit everyone with buffs regardless of party (I think people fail to realize just how much damage inferno howl adds or how useful other SMN AoEs can be in this event). It's also more convenient than DNC for me to get around the areas easily (fleet wind + s / i is a lot easier than trying to use both jigs).

I'll agree that I wish the job did more damage, but from a balance perspective, is it fair for the job to both do awesome damage and have a bunch of support/enfeeble abilities on top of that? I've never understood why some people regard SMN's support abilities with such disdain.

[RAIST]

It's NOT a summoenr specific issue- it's an issue with the enmity system as a whole, and when they fix the enmity issues, the SMN issue will go away. I totally agree it's CAUSES problems for SMN, but the root issue here is not SMN itself. It's the enmity system. Also you say it affects SMN more than the other pets, well that's poppycock. The only reason it doesn't affect PUP so greatly is Ventriloqouy and you don't typically try to make the pet tank in the first place.

THAT's what I'm saying. It's not intended to screw summoner, the changes weren't targeting it, it's simply poor planning/testing on their part.

This BUG also has nothing to do with why the OP was saying SMN sucks and is worse than the other pet jobs.

No, there is a specific issue with SMN....or did you not consider the issues with scaling? That is directly in line with what the OP is talking about.

Avatar's have a flatter increase to stats as your SMN levels in contrast to other pet jobs. Compare them to the other pets...there is an obvious disparity to how Avatars have scaled since level 75. With a couple exception, their best attacks are still essentially level 70/75, subject to sub-par INT/STR/DEX and other modifiers--so much that it sometimes requires TP build up, well timed massive gear swaps, and praying the gods shine on you with /random calculations for the latent effects on some of that gear to kick in.

If the pets had proper scaling over the last 24 levels, the recent changes would have had NOWHERE near the impact they do.

[Alhanelem]

No, there is a specific issue with SMN....or did you not consider the issues with scaling? That is directly in line with what the OP is talking about.... are we going to go back and forth with this all day?

It is not a summoner specific issue. it's an enmity system issue that doesn't treat SMN any differently than any other job. There is nothing in the system that says "if the player's job is SMN, screw him to hell." it is a side effect of the enmity system revisions. It is not a direct problem directly applied to SMN.


With a couple exception, their best attacks are still essentially level 70/75, subject to sub-par INT/STR/DEX and other modifiersI don't disagree that this is an issue, but this has nothing to do with the enmity system- this is a separate issue entirely.

Are we just sorely miss-communicating to each other here or something?

I didn't say there were no issues with SMN. I said (the "It" which your quote is referring to) that the ENMITY issue was NOT a summoner specific issue- Meaning the enmity changes they made in the update are all farked up- it was not a specific change directed at SMN.

Sometimes I feel like people are purposely misrepresenting what I say to argue against me. Yet I'm the one who gets accused of everything.

[RAIST]

... are we going to go back and forth with this all day?

It is not a summoner specific issue. it's an enmity system issue that doesn't treat SMN any differently than any other job. There is nothing in the system that says "if the player's job is SMN, screw him to hell." it is a side effect of the enmity system revisions. It is not a direct problem directly applied to SMN.

I don't disagree that this is an issue, but this has nothing to do with the enmity system- this is a seperate issue entirely.

Are we just sorely miscommunicating to each other here or something?

I didn't say there were no issues with SMN. I said that the ENMITY issue was NOT a summoner specific issue- Meaning the enmity changes they made in the update are all farked up- it was not a specific change directed at SMN.

Ahhh... now I think we are finally seeing the problem. Apparently, there is a failure to communicate.

Other pets jobs are not as adversely affected by the change because their pets have scaled more appropriately over time in comparison to how avatars have scaled.

Because of this disparity, avatars enmity is all over the place because the weaker stats are skewing the enimty generation/decay all over the map in comparison.

Therefore, Avatars are too weak in comparison to other pets---the problems have been there for a long time now, but were more manageable until these recent changes. Previously, it was just a nuisance that we dealt with, but this update has focused a magnifying glass on the issue because it is just ridiculously skewed now. So, people are shouting

I'm mad as hell, and I'm not taking anymore!!

So yeah, in a way... it IS in fact more a SMN releated issue, even when talking solely about the enmity changes (it is more than that, it's a combination of enmity, ATT/DEF ratio, and lack of scaling...but fixing the last changes a lot of the impact of the other two)--simply because the other jobs have a means to better remedy the situation (as you even mentioned yourself with the use of Ventriloquy). SMN has no recourse but to take the beatings and hope not to die.

[Alhanelem]

Ahhh... now I think we are finally seeing the problem. Apparently, there is a failure to communicate.

Other pets jobs are not as adversely affected by the change because their pets have scaled more appropriately over time in comparison to how avatars have scaled.

Because of this disparity, avatars enimity is all over the place because the weaker stats are skewing the enimty generation/decay all over the map in comparison.

Therefore, Avatars are too weak in comparison to other pets---the problems have been there for a long time now, but were more manageable until these recent changes. Previously, it was just a nuisance that we dealt with, but this update has focused a magnifying glass on the issue because it is just ridiculously skewed now. So, people are shoutingNow your response is more clear.

Can you actually show that the avatar's attributes (str/int/etc) have not scaled at the same porportion as everything else?.

I do agree that three new attacks, none of which are for the "main" avatars, was the most disappointing thing about the trip to 99.

The main issue I had with the comments in the thread "smn is awful / smn is neglected" is it screams "QQ waah my job sucks" because the only problem illustrated by the OP was a subjective rating of a few things about each job's pet and it's something of a falsehood to suggest that SMN has not been recieving its fair share of updates over the years (Whether or not we feel they were effective enough) and that the only thing left to do is scream until something is done.

(In short: some of the complaints in this thread [especially the OP's] read more like QQ boo hoo rather than sound objective criticisms)

[Economizer]

take away SCH's Embrava, its a job no one wants around

SCH is still useful outside of Embrava. It has almost the non-AoE healing power of White Mage and almost the non-AoE nuking power of Black Mage. If it has a major flaw it is that it can't have Haste and Stun at the same time.


Summoner is not a neglected job.

Most jobs in FFXI have some part that is neglected.

I could give all sorts of examples, such as with White Mage, one of the jobs that is often considered higher tier then others, Afflatus Misery sucks pretty badly, we were "promised" Banish IV before Cait Sith was even mentioned, it took over a full year from finding out the new cure formula (which itself took a bit of time after they put it on the test server) to them telling Japanese players (they never even translated it officially) that Cure VI is only really intended as an emergency cure, and I could go on down the list.

But of course, perhaps I'm able to rattle off a list of things that are neglected I'm talking about another mage job, pet jobs are known for being slightly neglected but mage jobs are generally in worse shape in FFXI, and Summoner is both.


(and calling yourself the "realer summoner")

What new lows can we descend to next?

[RAIST]

Just go play the jobs. They were documented as having gimped INT back at 75 (BLM with only 82 INT) , base magic damage was 512 for merit BP, less for T2/T4. No one ever bothered to try to reverse engineer all the stats back then, doubt anyone is going to now either. It can be seen clearly simply by playing the job.

When it is easy to pull hate off a mob simply by whacking it a few times with a -perp staff after your avatar has used it's BEST blood pact.....yeah, there is a problem with your avatar's stats. Don't even have to hit it.. just recast Haste, SS, or Regen and it comes at you. By comparison, when I pull hate on BST after a WS, I just snarl it away, beat on it a while, WS, snarl... rinse/repeat.

[Alhanelem]

Obviously we don't see "neglected" as meaning the same thing. If the Dev team sees issues and addresses them (Which they have) it isn't being neglected. It's fine for you to mention specific issues, but speaking as a whole the job isn't any more neglected than any other. It gets additions and updates with the same regularity as most other jobs.

When I see "neglected", that's what I'm thinking about. "neglected" itself doesn't say "this job sucks", it means "We haven't touched it in a while." They have touched it, just not necessarily in the specific ways some people wish.

Context is critical. If you're not specific with what you mean, I'm not going to "get it."

[hideka]

inbe4 moved to summoner board :p

Your arbitrary ratings are based on nothing but your opinions and some are flat out wrong. Are you really trying to tell me that a pet that has a wait time of up to a minute to resummon is more disposable than a pet that has a 8 second recast?

You can not throw puppets at mobs like you can throw avatars at them. This fact alone is why SMN (and BST) are highly preferable for these circumstances (e.g. walk of echoes)

SE hasn't been avoiding summoner and has made some adjustment or another in almost every update which contains job adjustments.

If nothing else we certainly know we have a good 2nd SP ability coming.

The only thing they HAVE been avoiding, which I AM bitter about, is Cait Sith and Atomos. They announced those well over a year ago and there's still no sign that they're coming.

one more edit: Let me ask one more question: Of these three jobs, which one is the most asked for by the community for any content? Answer: Summoner.

i agree with you on the disposability, but i think ive made a fair evaluation of everything else. SMN should be S rank disposablilty and Pup should be A rank.

i don't know what your talking about pup not being able to throw autos in there... i can throw valor edge into a WOE battle all day long >_> between 32% Pet PDT, Schurzen, Barrier module, equalizer , auto repair I&II, and oils, i rarely lose a robot. oh and a good vit Maneuver build helps alot.


the adjustments SE has made to summoner since Avatars favor and upper level pacts:
1: Spirit perpetuation costs
2: Spirit Merits
3: Nerfing P Defense.
stop me if ive missed something crucial here... these are "oh hey, we need to give them something just to say we did" updates.

smn needs more work than any job in this game, other than RUN and GEO, but they dont count since they havent been in the game for the last decade.

[SNK]

imo once Perfect Defense was nerfed, I saw it as a welp, that's the end of SMN being wanted fulltime in most endgame events.

[Jaall]

Other pets jobs are not as adversely affected by the change because their pets have scaled more appropriately over time in comparison to how avatars have scaled.

Therefore, Avatars are too weak in comparison to other pets

Um hate to always bring this back to DRG but I kinda feel I have to - Wyverns do absolutely s**t all! They heal but you need a ton of gear, and I really do mean a ton and what I'm really talking about is elemental breaths. They don't even scratch higher level nm's whereas I've seen SMN doing 3-5k easily on them. Considering an avatar is SMN's main damage dealer that's fine but due to the flaws of DRG that have never been fixed the overall damage done in that minute is usually less than that depending on how well you gear DRG.

It works the other way too, and actually works for every job, if you gear them well and correctly they will always be better, and can actually be better than the great jobs, for example there were many times when my very well geared DRG would walk all over Ukon War's who didn't have the best gear. SMN has had more changes than a few other jobs but like I said DRG has to be the one that is truly neglected by SE just because it very rarely gets an update and when it does it's something that every other job gets at the same time, excluding the ones I mentioned. I think it's safe to say 2 added bonuses in 5+ years, one being a remake of the abilities it had anyway, is a very good definition of "neglect".

I also don't agree with using enmity issues in this because everyone is suffering enmity issue at the moment due to the new system. It's just because SE didn't think out the new formula and tbh it's obviously not in depth enough for a game like FFXI because all they did was change a cap and didn't consider everything else, like pets. Every pet job bar DRG who have no issues cause wyverns pretty much sucked for getting hate before anyway, have been effected by this enmity change so it's not just SMN related.

I also agree that SMN is broken to an extent but nowhere near as much as other jobs and priorities should be the jobs that are completely broken like DRG RDM BLM PUP etc, but they are working on them, well all except DRG for reasons I really can't figure out. But the point's still valid, they do have their priorities right but SoA is slowing the whole fixing process down, so patience is key. Or you could just do what I did, get fed up of waiting and quit, I'm actually really happy I did.

[Karbuncle]

Sorry I'm late~


Also, if it was really so "awful", you wouldn't be playing it

Not true, The Job is awful, But its fun to mess around with now and again.

You want proof of Avatars horrible scaling to 99? I out-damage my avatars, even on T~VT mobs, Simply by Meleeing/Shattersoul. Avatar DMG is out-DD'd by a Melee SMN, their Damage, amongst other things, is pure crap.

Beyond that, defensively, every one of their BP's can be done by a SCH or /SCH with Accession, and SCH or /SCH is more potent, all of Avatar's BP's are ridiculously weak and underpowered. The only decent BP They've gotten since 75 Merits was Shock Squall. The others are just generally terrible and situational at best. I do admit to enjoying Ifrit's Enfire BP Though, it can be useful in some situations.

Outside of PD, the job isn't "Useful", except for the occasional Shock Squall, and thats only used in events they're already invited for for PD, no ones going "We need SHock Squall", they'll invite a BLM for stun if they just needed stun, the only reason people bother with Shock Squall is because when you bring a SMN for PD, their only other use is Shock Squall, so they throw that into the rotation/equation.

Basically, the job is in a sad state of affairs, Its not really "Useful" any more than "Thief" is useful. its a one trick pony who can do other things while its invited for its Pony, but generally, no one cares what you do after you apply Perfect Defense/Treasure hunter. You just... Sit in the party and try to look useful, and nothing you contribute outside of your Pony is really ... useful or matters in any way to the outcome of the battle :\

Doesn't mean I can't have fun Shattersoul'ing shit in the face.


(and calling yourself the "realer summoner").

I swear I went over this with you before, or someone recently lol, its a joke on someone who made a sig before me with "Real Summoner" as their comment, I had Ol'Galka make me a Sig with "Realer Summoner" as a joke, because I Melee on SMN (sometimes) and as a joke, I was saying Meleeing is more Real than BP > Thumb up your a** for 45 seconds.

[Byrth]

The job has serious design issues. SE needs to buff avatar DPS. In my opinion, un-enhanced Avatars should be at least as good as an un-enhanced melee using a respectable level 99 weapon, considering the limited ways players have to enhance their damage. I can't think of any situations where this would cause "balance issues" that weren't seen as acceptable for years, so I don't see any issues that could arise.


To illustrate the problem, Avatars currently have approximately the same D/Delay as a naked level 99 DRK single-wielding a Pick of Trials (the level 71 trial weapon for Decimation). That's atrocious.


Now, if you scaled Avatars up from Pick level to the DPS of a D80/288 delay L99 Magian Axe:
D46/312 delay Pick of Trials version Avatar -> D87/312 delay quasi-melee version Avatar


So, bringing avatars up to the point where their melee DPS is comparable with an unenhanced melee would require a ~90% increase in base damage. This is not a large enough DPS boost to fix the avatar Enmity problems (which will also not be fixed by reduced Avatar command enmity), but it is a step in the right direction. It's also worth noting that the above proposed DPS is still worse than BST pets, as Falcorr has something like D99/230 delay with Triple Attack. His DPS comes in >3x higher than current "Pick of Trials" avatars and >1.5x higher than the proposed "quasi-melee" version). SMN would not be stepping on BST's toes with this adjustment, but it would have an easier time doing Reives and would not really open the door for abuse.

[Alhanelem]

Outside of PD, the job isn't "Useful", except for the occasional Shock Squall, and thats only used in events they're already invited for for PD, no ones going "We need SHock Squall", they'll invite a BLM for stun if they just needed stun, the only reason people bother with Shock Squall is because when you bring a SMN for PD, their only other use is Shock Squall, so they throw that into the rotation/equation. SMN has about half a dozen other support effects that are useful either because they're not commonly available otherwise or because they're more convenient. I've heard time and time again that Hastega is 'terrible" because WHM can haste a party easily enough, but SMN can haste everyone with a single action (and it's ridiculously powerful in Rieves, besieged and Walk of Echoes where it affects everyone), shiva and leviathan have useful debuffs, ifrit has useful buffs. SMN is used in voidwatch for procs. SMN is most lacking in the offensive department but the way I see it is very useable in a support role.


I swear I went over this with you before, or someone recently lol, its a joke on someone who made a sig before me with "Real Summoner" as their comment, I had Ol'Galka make me a Sig with "Realer Summoner" as a joke, because I Melee on SMN (sometimes) and as a joke, I was saying Meleeing is more Real than BP > Thumb up your a** for 45 seconds. I understand this- I guess it wasn't obvious in text that I know this already.

It's obvious the avatars have inferior stats and that needs to be addressed. From the beginning, I was only really taking issue with the assertion that SE is "neglecting" the job. They haven't been neglecting it, rather the changes they have made aren't really what most of us have been wishing for. I just don't think an attitude of entitlement is going to help us get what we want. The more analytical stuff is what SE needs.


imo once Perfect Defense was nerfed, I saw it as a welp, that's the end of SMN being wanted fulltime in most endgame events. Except that didn't really happen. All they did was nerf the duration. If you stack as much skill as possible for it, it's not far off from where it was before. It's still a ridiculously powerful effect. Odin really needs a drastic buff so you can ever justify using it. Right now the only thing it's good for is zapping aggro you don't want to fight. It needs some kind of minimum damage on NMs- The rieve mobs all count as NMs, so Zantetsuken does damage rather than KOs, but the mobs have very low HP so the damage is awful, worse than other 1-hour attacks.

[Kintups]

BUFF MY AUTOMATON

[Mokeil]

SMN has about half a dozen other support effects that are useful either because they're not commonly available otherwise or because they're more convenient. I've heard time and time again that Hastega is 'terrible" because WHM can haste a party easily enough, but SMN can haste everyone with a single action (and it's ridiculously powerful in Rieves, besieged and Walk of Echoes where it affects everyone), shiva and leviathan have useful debuffs, ifrit has useful buffs. SMN is used in voidwatch for procs. SMN is most lacking in the offensive department but the way I see it is very useable in a support role.

Hastega is actually the one Ward that I can flat out say no one can touch us on - and that's mostly because it doesn't stack with Accession. The only other Wards I find myself using regularly are Inferno Howl, Shock Squall, Fleet Wind, Spring Water, and Whispering Wind (mostly because Garuda is already likely to be out). Ifrit's remaining buff, Crimson Howl, does get Honorable Mention, though, as does Healing Ruby II.

I'll grant that there's even a few situational ones that are really nice when they pop up - Earthen Armor is a pretty solid example. I also got some really good use out of Soothing Ruby when my LS was taking on Yilbegan.

But Shiva and Leviathan for debuffs? Sleepga will backfire on a Summoner more often than not. The enmity from the Ward command will almost always end up with your avatar waking up a slept mob at some point. I can't honestly think of a time when Frost Armor came in handy, either. (Also done cheaper via a SCH, RDM/SCH, or BLM/SCH.) I can grant there's some use on Diamond Storm... but most melees will already have their to-hit taken care of via food effects. Likewise I can't think of many times where being able to Slow multiple mobs is handy either - most groups are either kited or slept, with only one mob fought at a time.

That just leaves Tidal Roar. Since there was a recent change to attack and defense, this might see a bit more use. Still, we're paying a lot of MP for the right to make this AoE, when it probably won't be used to hit multiple mobs in many situations.

As for the rest of our wards...


Beyond that, defensively, every one of their BP's can be done by a SCH or /SCH with Accession, and SCH or /SCH is more potent, all of Avatar's BP's are ridiculously weak and underpowered.

The part that Karbuncle didn't mention? Asscession'ed effects almost always cost less than ours, too. So far, I think Sleepga is the only Ward that beats out an Accession'ed Sleep in as far as MP costs go.

That still leaves 16 Wards I haven't mentioned by name so far. And it isn't even a question of them just being really situational. They're just plain out not worth using, often because another job can do it so much better than we can. Even the Wards I listed as favorites can often be matched by other jobs. I'm not saying Summoner needs to be better, but it would be nice if we, too, could match what other jobs bring. Also, while I appreciate the flavor that went into many of Fenrir's and Diabolos' Wards, making them variable mostly just makes them unreliable and not worth the effort to use.

The only place we win out is on duration. In the case out our wards, we end up paying a lot of MP for long durations. However, with the name of the game being "Zerg", duration often means little compared to potency.

[Harle]

I dunno if you guys have read this but:


...In regards to the addition of two new jobs and the increasingly difficult job adjustments, I believe that making adjustments so that regardless of the enemy all jobs are able to deal the same damage or making adjustments so that regardless of the content all jobs can clear it using the same strategy are not fitting adjustments for a game with 22 jobs. Job adjustment is fundamentally content adjustment. For any content, if there are only enemies that are strong against magic, magic based jobs will no doubt take a hit. We will pay even more attention to whether the content that is implemented is open to all jobs and be more thorough in sharing information between the people who are implementing the content. We're aware that there are still some uneven aspects to strengths and weaknesses of certain jobs, but the job lead and those making content adjustments are aware that only modifying the job parameters will not accomplish this task, and will be continuing to make adjustments...

Basically what he's saying is that individual jobs don't matter, and what's important is how you play the content. If you can't do something with a specific job, then don't use that job.

Not saying I agree with that, but that should explain what's going on here, or with other neglected jobs.

[Alhanelem]

But Shiva and Leviathan for debuffs?tidal roar is acutally pretty handy given the new defense formula. 25% attack down under the new att/def ratio is/should be a measurable reduction in melee damage.


Basically what he's saying is that individual jobs don't matter, and what's important is how you play the content. If you can't do something with a specific job, then don't use that job. Jobs don't have to be all made the same to all be made useful for a given content. Also, if certain jobs are consistently not wanted for a majority of contents, that I feel IS indicative of a problem.

[Keyln]

Beyond that, defensively, every one of their BP's can be done by a SCH or /SCH with Accession, and SCH or /SCH is more potent, all of Avatar's BP's are ridiculously weak and underpowered. The only decent BP They've gotten since 75 Merits was Shock Squall. The others are just generally terrible and situational at best. I do admit to enjoying Ifrit's Enfire BP Though, it can be useful in some situations.

Hastega.

/char

[Alhanelem]

The only situation in which ifrit's enfire isn't useful is when you have no melee or your melee consists of an army of rune fencers and/or dancers. The damage added is significant, especially on dual wielding onehanders. Of particular note it makes the lv95->99 LB quest laughably easy.

[Manux]

Yes you are right theirs a war going on this thread
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/32527-Abyssea-Dominion-Retake

GM tanked down like button and edit button also few sec ago.

STOP AVOIDING IT GM LOL

[Unaisis]

RDM beats your pet jobs for most neglected job on 11!!!!!




/wrists x_x

[Economizer]

Hastega is actually the one Ward that I can flat out say no one can touch us on - and that's mostly because it doesn't stack with Accession.

Hastega is a spell that White Mages and Red Mages should have been given years ago as well though.

That said, I could support the ward version having a skill based scaling or a better skill based scaling over the spell version that allows high skill to boost it past the current value - this would also make SMN better then /SMN for casting the spell in a major way.

Summoner's best bloodpacts shouldn't merely be spells that other jobs should have gotten years ago but never did.

[Kombys]

should be cool if they fix smn buffsm stronger stoneskin, blink shadows based on smn magic skill similar to occulation blue mage spells, stronger phalanx effect or let it stack with phalanx rdm spells, enspells are shitty and really weak, just enfire is decent tho, increase potency on enspells for ramuh based on smn magic skill.

[hideka]

RDM beats your pet jobs for most neglected job on 11!!!!!




/wrists x_x

good god man dont get me started on RDM. they need to include RDM into high level leather type DPS gears. its high time they had access. if they did that, a rdm would be a little better for endgame melee.

[Mokeil]

Hastega is a spell that White Mages and Red Mages should have been given years ago as well though.


Speaking as a fellow who will always consider Summoner my main job, and having said that Hastega is our one good Ward no one else can match... I honestly have no clue why no one else has a Hastega option, yet, either. At the very least it should stack with Accession like every other buff. Having to keep up a Haste rotation on (more or less) everyone is a nuisance that just shouldn't be.



tidal roar is acutally pretty handy given the new defense formula. 25% attack down under the new att/def ratio is/should be a measurable reduction in melee damage.

I was excited when I first used the move... Then I realized that with the then-current state of Defense vs Attack, it did pretty much bupkis and never used it again on anything serious. I'm definitely interested in what Tidal Roar can do with the recent change. The fact that its a percentage based effect gives me some hope it will start to find a place in endgame usage. Time will tell.

[Karbuncle]

Hastega.

/char

hey. fk you buddy. <3

I did however mention that in my thread that Hastega was our last remaining refuge as far as BP:wards go. I will say this, SMN is useful for things like Reives because their buffs are AoE... to everyone. Which is nice when you're not all in a party. So its cool for Reives/Campaign, But outside of those unique situations, our AoEs (sans hastega) are just gimp versions of otherwise good spells. Oh, and as i mentioned, Ifrit's Enfire is pretty balling when there's no DNC for miles.

[Mizuharu]

I swear I went over this with you before, or someone recently lol, its a joke on someone who made a sig before me with "Real Summoner" as their comment, I had Ol'Galka make me a Sig with "Realer Summoner" as a joke, because I Melee on SMN (sometimes) and as a joke, I was saying Meleeing is more Real than BP > Thumb up your a** for 45 seconds.

This guy is always butt hurt over every thing and will pull out whatever he can to try to get an edge on someone. Just ignore him Karbuncle.

[Imakun]

I could count on one finger the times I heard "Hey, let's invite that SMN so he/she can Hastega us!" and I would be left with a finger unused.
Hastega as a spell is long overdue for AT LEAST White Mage and Scholar (via Accession). I understand Haste is freakishly powerful in XI, but I couldn't care less if they gave the AoE version to WHM or whatever. It wouldn't change anything for SMN. Anything.

I find myself using SMN less and less often, especially since the enmity update. It was my solo job, my "safety" job to try out new things and the likes. Now I can't even do that because our Avatars suck.
They are terrible damage dealers and can't hold hate to save my life. Literally. They lose enmity faster than they can get it via BPs or melee swings (which are pathetic). I can't heal them like a BST/PUP can heal their pets. I can't switch enmity with them like a BST/PUP can. I can't safely resummon because I die faster than ever thanks to my awesome wet paper defense.

Summoner is a pet MAGE. It needs to be treated like one. Give us tools to interact with our Avatars more and make them scale better with level. Give them another job instead of BLM for God's sake. We are still using lv70 BPs for physical damage, we can't heal them, we can't protect them, we can't tinker with their enmity, defense, attack or other stats beside the use of Blood Pacts or pet-specific equipment.
I'd rather have one pet that costs 500MP to summon but it's durable and interactive than potentially infinite weaker pets I can throw to a monster's face until it dies.
Most of the times it feels like I'm zombie'ing a mob to death.

[Rezeak]

Honestly, SMN has a lot of love on everything but it's damage output.

Good stuff 75 --> 99
Loads more perp gear
Loads more Pet specific gear
Earthern armor (an incredibly useful abilty in some fights)
Fleet wind <3 (may not have effet on fight but running faster is always awsome ^^)
Shock squall (this alone is a huge buff to smn)
Diamond storm/Tidal roar ( could be useful in the future in debuffing strong mobs easpically the -25% attack down w/ the new atk/def update)

So yea saying stuff like "has not had a legitimate update" ... your kinda wrong.

Last good update was limbus update the new shoes are insane for BP DMG.

With all that said in my opinion they're are 2 clear issues with SMN.

Blood pact time cap is -15 still >< other jobs can get 80% haste or 50% recast yet blood pacts are stuck at 25%.

While DMG has gone up from gear and avatars gaining MAB the, % increase is much much lower than other jobs % increase in DMG. I'd even say a DD WHM got a bigger DMG buffs than SMN over the updates.

[Glamdring]

what, they updated spirits, I was reading the threads back then, apparently that was the most important thing in the game.

[Mokeil]

Honestly, SMN has a lot of love on everything but it's damage output.

Good stuff 75 --> 99
Loads more perp gear
Loads more Pet specific gear
Earthern armor (an incredibly useful abilty in some fights)
Fleet wind <3 (may not have effet on fight but running faster is always awsome ^^)
Shock squall (this alone is a huge buff to smn)
Diamond storm/Tidal roar ( could be useful in the future in debuffing strong mobs easpically the -25% attack down w/ the new atk/def update)

So yea saying stuff like "has not had a legitimate update" ... your kinda wrong.

Last good update was limbus update the new shoes are insane for BP DMG.


The phrase "job update" has a particular, accepted, idiomatic meaning specifying changes to existing job abilities/traits/spells, or adding new ones to help the job fulfill its role in a more beneficent manner. New toys gained during the level cap upgrades are more a natural consequence of leveling than a "job update".

Additionally, the phrase is often taken to mean tweaks that are specific to the job, as opposed to general changes. For that reason, new gear is rarely counted, unless it offers spectacularly sweeping changes particular to the way the job is played. New boots that allow us to deal a little more damage do not count. I am willing to admit that all the recent -perp gear that allows us to have free avatars does, though.

I'm certainly not saying we haven't benefited from the new BPs or new gear, or that they aren't nice! The thing is that they do little to alleviate our core problems - things like the enforced 45 second BP timer... or the horrendous potency of 90% of our Wards... or the near unusably of Avatar's Favor... We're still in need of a lot of fixes to get us up to par.


what, they updated spirits, I was reading the threads back then, apparently that was the most important thing in the game.

They also reduced the recast of all our avatars down to 5 seconds!

[Crimson_Slasher]

As a summoner too i notice the lacking auto-attack damage and rate. Either better traits and stats, or being treated at hand-to-hand mechanics for their attacks (always attacking twice+) and a buff to their hp could help. Another 2 personal issues though.

-First being the fact that summoner can not heal with a pet out, when they may or may not be the most in need of healing while their pet tends to things.

-Second, the fact that summoners as pet jobs (as well as select frames for pup.) are affected more adversely by both amnesia -and- silence. Perhaps pet commands need to be branched to avoid amnesia for jobs (or atleast summoner?). That was always one of the things that bugged me was sitting there, staring at an avatar, amnesiaed, unable to tell them to attack, or leave, or anything. Just the assault/deploy/fight commands and their pet release commands would be nice to be separated from this.

[Luvbunny]

Well, dancer just got our AOE movement speed aka Fleet Wind, at 120 seconds flat, without even have to skill up dancer magic lol. Ours however is severely tied to summon magic which does not exactly skilling up as fast as it should be.

[Babekeke]

Well, dancer just got our AOE movement speed aka Fleet Wind, at 120 seconds flat, without even have to skill up dancer magic lol. Ours however is severely tied to summon magic which does not exactly skilling up as fast as it should be.

I think that you'll find that SMN, COR and now DNC have got BRD's AOE movement speed, AKA Mazurka.

[Alhanelem]

This guy is always butt hurt over every thing and will pull out whatever he can to try to get an edge on someone. Just ignore him Karbuncle.
It sounds to me like you're the one who's butthurt.

It was a friendly josh. You might not realize this, but Karbuncle and I actually get along rather well. There's really no good reason to be so rude, especially when you weren't involved in the conversation.

I already knew full well the origins of his sig and the "realer summoner" phrase.

[Malphius]

Summoner is not a neglected job. The job has seen tons of changes and updates over the years- probably more than most jobs. It's getting its fair share of attention. Whether that attention is producing the desired results is a matter of opinion, but it's laughable at best to argue that it's "neglected."

the word "neglected" implies that they have been completely ignoring it and making no changes, which really isn't true at all.

If it was so awful it wouldn't be so instrumental in certain events e.g. walk of echoes where PD isn't even why it's there. Exaggerating will not get the job improvements. Also, if it was really so "awful", you wouldn't be playing it (and calling yourself the "realer summoner").

The only problem that SMN truly has that is directly about SMN is the BP timer. it is capped at such a ridiculously high level at a time when the game is at its spammiest. There are plenty of useful ward effects available.

SMN has its issues, but it's not "awful."

Al, you can't reason with these people. Just try to make your points through the eyes of an angry and emotional summoner. You'll probably get further.

[Manux]

we want the same avatars as in final fantasy 10 :~ and I don't like Alhanelem because he has been pissing in the thread I made also
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33191-Summoner-Summoning-A-yes-please-shoot-the-person-that-came-up-with-the-idea-A

By looking at this anyone can see that theirs something wrong. Please explain to us why SE has not yet added any job abilities when comparing them to the rest of the jobs.

Nice we got Mana Cede at 87 lol some time i feel like saying something :~ (guess there no freedom of speech here lol)

White Mage: Healing at lvl 99 >> 424
Black Mage: Elemental Magic at lvl 99 >> 424
Red Mage: Enfeebling Magic at lvl 99 >> 424
Blue mage: Blue Magic at lvl >> 424
Dark Knight: Dark Magic at lvl 99 >> 417
Ninja: Ninjutsu at lvl 99 >> 417

[OmnysValefor]

Is S good or is S bad? (I know S usually means good but bst's rating throws me off, if you're talking about mobs above 100)

Why would you say smn's pet disposability is B? In fact, it's A.

In the case of endurance, it's only fair to factor a cost that's usually not negligible (for many players) to keep that pet up, and it still is likely to die.

In Dynamis, for instance, Faithful Falcorr takes magic better than an Aegis PLD (seen it, lol) but only when he noticeably outlevels the target. Put him against even decent challenge and his magic resists floor. The reason for this isn't really intentional, just that pets are treated as NPCs and NPC's damage taken and damage calculations have a lot more to do with levels than a player's. For instance, A great bst would probably still lose his falcorr, or gooey to Pil, especially if he's targeting the pet.

But yeah, hastega is the only buff I think that summons can do that rdm/sch, or sch/rdm (whm/sch of course can't do phalanx), can't. Some love for the job would be nice.

[Babekeke]

But yeah, hastega is the only buff I think that summons can do that rdm/sch, or sch/rdm (whm/sch of course can't do phalanx), can't. Some love for the job would be nice.

Lightning Armor
Frost Armor
Inferno Howl (much stronger than accessioned enfire)
Shining Ruby
Earthen Armor
Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl
Dream Shroud
Fleet Wind

But yeah, apart from these 9, Hastega is the only one.

[RAIST]

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

[Mokeil]

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

Well, Omnys did specify SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH... I think we're all aware that Bard, Corsair, and Geomancer get most (all?) of the rest of those between them.



Lightning Armor
Frost Armor


Actually, SCH and RDM/SCH (even BLM/SCH) can do these, too. They're a little weird, though. They have to be done in Dark Arts with Manifestation. Also, the log won't show your team mates get the buff, nor will the animation show. All the same, your party will all suddenly have spikes.

[OmnysValefor]

edit: beaten, by hours.


Lightning Armor
Frost Armor
Inferno Howl (much stronger than accessioned enfire)
Shining Ruby
Earthen Armor
Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl
Dream Shroud
Fleet Wind

But yeah, apart from these 9, Hastega is the only one.

SCH can do aoe shock spikes with manifestation believe it or not and I think Ice Spikes. Manifestation, not accession.

Otherwise, you're right, sorry.

[Babekeke]

Actually, most of those can in fact effectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

Correct, but the effects stack with the SMN variant of the buff, unlike hastega/noctoshield/aerial armor/earthen ward.


Well, Omnys did specify SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH... I think we're all aware that Bard, Corsair, and Geomancer get most (all?) of the rest of those between them.

I never even thought about Geo. I haven't played the job, and not been in a party with enough Geos (certainly who have all the spells) to have a clue what buffs they have, and whether or not they stack with SMN wards.



Actually, SCH and RDM/SCH (even BLM/SCH) can do these, too. They're a little weird, though. They have to be done in Dark Arts with Manifestation. Also, the log won't show your team mates get the buff, nor will the animation show. All the same, your party will all suddenly have spikes.


SCH can do aoe shock spikes with manifestation believe it or not and I think Ice Spikes. Manifestation, not accession.

Otherwise, you're right, sorry.

Wow, I did not know that o.0 I remember being particularly annoyed that I couldn't AOE spikes on SCH when I tried it, but I guess I never tried manifestation... mainly due to the fact that it was obviously wrong? Or so I thought lol.

[Mokeil]

I never even thought about Geo. I haven't played the job, and not been in a party with enough Geos (certainly who have all the spells) to have a clue what buffs they have, and whether or not they stack with SMN wards.

I know they've at least got buffs for Attack, Accuracy, and Evasion, as well as a range of spells for stat-ups. Theirs are more potent than ours, but are limited to two effects only as a trade off. I can't say whether they stack with Wards or not, either. That price tag on spells has put a lot of people off on leveling it.




Wow, I did not know that o.0 I remember being particularly annoyed that I couldn't AOE spikes on SCH when I tried it, but I guess I never tried manifestation... mainly due to the fact that it was obviously wrong? Or so I thought lol.

I was goofing off in Abyssea once, and in a moment of silliness I said, "Maybe they count as some sort of weird, inverted Enfeebling Spell!" Even so, because of the no-log/no-animation bug, I probably wouldn't have realized it worked if it wasn't for the fact that one of my party members that day was also a room-mate.

[Alhanelem]

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.
All this says is we have variety in the jobs we can play to get the same effects. Those other jobs aren't necessarily better or worse for the same purposes. Also, as others have mentioned, some of these effects stack with their counterparts on other jobs (especially GEO and the accuracy / attack up/down effects; ifrit's attack buff is Warcry, which will stack with attack bonus)

[RAIST]

huh? The conversation was dancing around issues that do/don't make SMN more appealing for events. The point that was trying to be made is that SMN has all these other buffs, as if that would be enough reason to invite them over other options. My point is that there are other jobs that can do the same thing. Those jobs are also in demand for the other contributions they can make beyond just those particular buffs.

That's the problem...when given the choice between SMN and these other jobs that can do the same thing in addition to a host of other benefits, SMN tends to loose out because they'd rather also have the additional benefits offered by those other jobs. So, unless there is a specific strategy calling for a SMN (ie: PD, or AOE enfire, or something else very specific like that), SMN gets a lot of neglect from the playerbase.

[Karbuncle]

Snowflake buffs

While some of what you listed are kinda unique, most of them... the problem Isn't really the ... effects themselves... so much as the Effect potency. All of these debuffs, while unique, are something most Tier II BRD songs are more powerful than.

Regardless of how these stack with other buffs, No ones going "Quick guys, drop for SMN Dream Shroud Rotations!". I.E The buffs suck, their potency isn't worth wasting a slot on them, and overall the entirety of the job is lack luster. I Can barely find a BP Worth using even in Delve, In the mage party, what do i have for WHM's and such? They aren't getting hit cause our DD ares good, so ShockSpikes/IceSpikes/Earthern Armor/phalanx/etc is useless, they don't nuke so Dream Shroud is meh, They don't melee, there goes Enfire/Thunder, They can haste themselves... so on, so forth... For what SMN is and its current role in endgame, Its buffs are little more than scenery.

You can pick any number of unrealistic and unideal vacuum situations that one of these buffs might kinda be useful in, But no ones repping a BRD, WHM, or Delve/RME-DD for a 40DMG/hit Enfire or mediocre buffs other jobs can do better.

no matter how many unnappealingly weak and pathetic 'unique' buffs we have, they're all so low in potency that its just not worth the wasted slot on a SMN, especially considering they aren't really good for jack these days, as their dmg output is hideous. (IDK Why SE decided to add Alternator now but not the BST/SMN/DRG Adjustment items... Guess they were an afterthought? Or Alternator was the Beta)

Edit: oh and PS, Babeke, Not implying that what I'm arguing is against your logic, these are just simple truths of the job.

[Dekusuta]

Problem with SMN is so many of our buffs were designed for under 75 use, and even then, many of them were unlocked in the 50's -60s range (see Fenrir) so at 75 they were not relevant, let alone 99.

Only summoner buff that have true value in endgame areas is Earthen Armor, one of the few post level cap bloodpact wards added with real value in a PT/end game setting. There's value to it since it greatly outmatches Bard's Scherzo and also stacks with it. A tank with Scherzo and Earthen Armor has significantly improved survibability.

We really need a suite of 90+ BP, wards (that aren't glorified spikes or enspells) & rages for the post level cap increase SMN. To be 99 and still using Aerial Armor and Whispering Wind is a bit of a joke.

[Babekeke]

Tidal Roar and Diamond Storm are still very useful in Delve.

-25 eva can be the difference between capping acc or not, and -25% attack is not to be sniffed at, especially since you almost always want to have dia on the mob to kill it faster, rather than bio to not kill you.

Obviously there are other ways to get these same buffs, but I don't often see a DRG/BLU/THF in Delve. Though nor do I often see a SMN to be honest.

[Dekusuta]

I should probably add that Shock Squall is also useful. I also concur that the post 75 wards generally have uses that aren't super niche, even if it is often not MP efficient and creates too much lag time time when dealing with a single mob. Delves and the longer kill cycle makes these somewhat more useful again.

Duration however is a problem, especially with Geo auras now being able to apply debuffs and Geos aren't time limited to 45 sec BP timers so they can potentially be doing a lot more in between.