NA PS2 - One Last Shot

[Volkai]

I see one possible way to get an NA PS2 release of Seekers of Adoulin made, and that's through a kickstarter-like Backer process. If SE sets a minimum amount of money required for the disc to be manufactured then allows us to set money towards it, with a certain minimum level backed to get a copy (and higher levels for multiple copies and/or a UCSE version) then we can see, in dollar amounts, if it's worth it for SE to make the release or not.

Worst case, the minimum is not met, nobody loses money, we're back where we started except with proof SE was justified in not making the PS2 disc for NA. Best case, we get a (late) NA PS2 release, and SE makes more money.

Here's a straw poll to give the community team an idea of if this is worth taking to the higher ups. If you want an NA PS2 version, please fill it out:
http://strawpoll.me/14568

EDIT: If you check the "also I plan to buy multiple copies" option, please also check one of the other options to indicate how much you'd likely invest into this.


EDIT EDIT: Apparently several people who read this do not understand how a Kickstarter-type "Backer funded" business/project model work. Here's a bit from Kickstarter's own explanation of how it works (http://www.kickstarter.com/hello):

Project creators set a funding goal and deadline. If people like a project, they can pledge money to make it happen. Funding on Kickstarter is all-or-nothing — projects must reach their funding goals to receive any money. All-or-nothing funding might seem scary, but it’s amazingly effective in creating momentum and rallying people around an idea


TL;DR : Vote in poll (http://strawpoll.me/14568) and/or Like this post to help convince SE to set a funding goal and deadline for would-be PS2 NA SoA buyers to back (fund) creation of a PS2 NA SoA release, and prove this is a profitable venture.

[RagingAvatar]

Good work bro.

[Sfchakan]

From the rest of us to you: give it up and move on. You holdouts are holding the rest of the game back.



You are ruining MY immersion!

[RagingAvatar]

From the rest of us to you: give it up and move on. You holdouts are holding the rest of the game back.

Just to let you know, you're wrong. Seekers of Adoulin is out for PS2 in Japan, the US users just want what the Japanese users got. Take your "holding the game back"-yadda talk somewhere else please.

[Bahamut]

I have to agree with you, but I think its more then just not having enough money to do this. Its much more deeper then that. You can see a trend in SE after FFXIV's failure. The company spent craploads of FFXI sub money to make a new final fantasy that actually bombed, leaving FFXI to pay the price for it. SE stocks took a huge hit and they took huge yearly losses from FFXIV by putting all thier eggs into one basket.

Since then they have a new producer and adopted new standards of zero investment for the final fantasy mmo's, and grouped both FFXIV and FFXI together as money losers as far as policies go, even when SE admits FFXI brings in huge amounts of cash for them.

You can also see a failed marketing strategy coming out of the SE department towards FFXI and FFXIV. They havent even released this expansion as successfully as they had Abyssea Add-ons, it was not advertised anywhere close to it, and it had almost no pre-order time with a sloppy last minute release to major stores and marketplaces, with some outlets still not even having it a week past release date. This shows they are being as cheap as possible in the marketing department when it comes to FFXI as if it was FFXIV and had already failed. This approch harms the games image, and thats more important then they realize, because your games image is directly tied into weather people want to play it or not.

They seem to be following the Sony model, which has not even made a new MMO in thier EQ series in years, or even so much as an update to thier graphics system or game engine to keep up with the times, yet at the same time they rake in so much money off of thier station cash stores there is no reason not to spend some of it on upgrades.

SE could also make PS3 version, but they dont even want to invest a penny into that venture either, even though they would make a ton of cash off of it. Releases like this have never been as bad till FFXIV tanked, if you really want the answer to why they have cut all spending to FFXI, look at the monstrosity FFXIV. The old producers admited they spent FFXI sub money to create FFIXV, and they lost so big that FFXI is now paying the price of it in the form of reformed marketing and investing into the final fantasy series, theres no reason to not have ps2 release, a steam release, a marketing campaign with ads on TV to bring in new customers, ect. unless theres been a change in investment and marketing strategies towards saving as much money as possible. Even when money taken in by FFXI doesnt justify it, after all the FFXI subs could build a monstrosity like FFXIV, but not a ps2 version? Seriously... lol.

In the future I see a problem so deep with FFXI pulling back its investment and marketing that FFXI will defiantly not be able to exist. Its facing new mmo's in the near future like ESO, with stunning graphics and a true rpg feel to it. If FFXI is going to compete with those rpg, they are going to have to pull up thier pants after FFXIV and look into transfering FFXI into a state of the art system like the FFXIV game engine. Transfer everyones account over and then continue, or they'll have to take option two which is realize that FFXI wont survive the coming up competition and let it die with as small investments as possible, then create a new FF MMORPG when that happens, which is probably what they are doing. This is taken as a long-term outlook and is probably why your seeing things that dont make sense today as far as marketing and investments go, but for FFXI its a bad sign to say the least.

[Luvbunny]

Totally agree with your post, they need to at least put some money back in developing FFXI, which actually have full paying customers. This kind of attitude does not bode well for the FF image overall, it makes me less want to try FF14, knowing that the same fate could befall to FF14 down the road. Good luck for FF14, the new producer seems like a great guy, curious to see how ARR would launch. SoA is pretty much a bland expansion though, maybe it is good that US/EU PS2 users don't have to deal with it. Save the agony and disappointment. Though I wonder why they could not let them just download it direct from Playonline Service? Its only 250s MB at most.

[Himrik]

Please...every player who paid until now will continue to pay even without the expansion, and the game is really too old to attract a significant "new playerbase".
So basically, Adoulin marketing campaign wouldn't have changed anything and would have been wasted money.

As for "the same fate could befall to FF XIV", I can only hope it will run for ELEVEN years before having bland expansion :p

[Teraniku]

They seem to be following the Sony model, which has not even made a new MMO in thier EQ series in years, or even so much as an update to thier graphics system or game engine to keep up with the times, yet at the same time they rake in so much money off of thier station cash stores there is no reason not to spend some of it on upgrades.

SE could also make PS3 version, but they dont even want to invest a penny into that venture either, even though they would make a ton of cash off of it. Releases like this have never been as bad till FFXIV tanked, if you really want the answer to why they have cut all spending to FFXI, look at the monstrosity FFXIV. The old producers admited they spent FFXI sub money to create FFIXV, and they lost so big that FFXI is now paying the price of it in the form of reformed marketing and investing into the final fantasy series, theres no reason to not have ps2 release, a steam release, a marketing campaign with ads on TV to bring in new customers, ect. unless theres been a change in investment and marketing strategies towards saving as much money as possible. Even when money taken in by FFXI doesnt justify it, after all the FFXI subs could build a monstrosity like FFXIV, but not a ps2 version? Seriously... lol.



-Everquest Next contradicts the first part of this quote about Sony.

-PS3 version of FFXI would be fail at this point. PS4 is arguable, but even if they did, there is no guarantee that they would make money off it. You think that a 10 year old game, which would need a new expansion tied to the release of the new console version, would make a profit? You want them to do a port of FFXI to new game engine (or even the FFXIV: ARR engine?) This costs money, and in S-E's current situation, investors would balk at throwing their money into it.

[Volkai]

From the rest of us to you: give it up and move on. You holdouts are holding the rest of the game back.



You are ruining MY immersion!
You are ruining your own immersion, nobody else can do that for you.

Also, I no longer play PS2, I switched to PC in 2008 and then PC+360 in 2012. This isn't for me.

Now, if you're done putting your foot in your mouth, does anyone have any /relevant/ ideas about this proposal?

[Kirito_Wind]

Did they ever give a reason why they wanted to stop making US ps2 versions?

[Lollerblades]

I'm in slight agreement with Bahamut , it would be nice if they could improve the graphics quality somewhat. I'm not asking for a FFXIV overhaul, but just a general increase in the quality we have at the moment.

As for the topic at hand I can see why people would like a ps2 disc of the expansion but if they didn't bother to do one for PC users PS2 really stands no chance . I have all my FFXI physical copies together and it makes me a little sad I have no SOA case to go with it . But such is life - we jut have to grin and bare it and hope they have something up their sleeves

[Mifaco]

Get over it and move up to PC. PS2 users are killing this game.

[Volkai]

Did they ever give a reason why they wanted to stop making US ps2 versions?

A quick forum search (using terms "Adoulin" and "PS2") brought up nothing, but after a bit of digging around I was able to find a relevant quote from GameEscape's Vana'Fest 2012 Interview:


GE- In North America Seekers of Adoulin will not be available for the PlayStation 2. Can you tell us what lead to this decision? It seems a bit odd to increase HDD capacity for the game on the console then only release the expansion in one territory. Why not release the expansion digitally?

SE (Answered by Square Enix, Inc.)- In evaluating the North American release of the expansion across all platforms, we needed to consider multiple factors, including the number of players exclusively on the system, and the costs associated with publishing or developing a stand-alone download. Regrettably, these two factors greatly determined our final decision to support the PC and Xbox platforms exclusively. However, we remain committed to supporting FINAL FANTASY XI on the PlayStation 2 platform for the foreseeable future.
Source (http://gamerescape.com/2012/07/25/gamer-escape-interview-post-vanafest-2012/#more-3967)

Here you go. This is why SoA is not on NA PS2. This is why the only chance an NA PS2 SoA release has is to prove that the number of players 'exclusively' on the system are willing to make an expenditure greater than the costs associated with publishing or developing a stand-alone download.

[Kirito_Wind]

Get over it and move up to PC. PS2 users are killing this game.

There are still ps2 users for SoA in Japan

http://store.jp.square-enix.com/detail/SLPM-55298?fromsearch=cat%3dall%26q%3d11

oh and thanks Volkai...

[Sfchakan]

Now, if you're done putting your foot in your mouth, does anyone have any /relevant/ ideas about this proposal?

Yes, anyone willing to donate a significant enough sum of money should use that money to switch to a more modern platform.

That's why this proposal is ridiculous. Defend the PS2 all you want, it's playerbase is holding the game back.

[Volkai]

oh and thanks Volkai...

Not a problem.

WHile I've moved on from PS2 to PC and XBox myself (can't give up that living room big screen), I can sympathize with how much it sucks to be left behind without an expansion, regardless of how understandable it might be -- and I'd definitely be picking up an expansion disc (or UC disc!) for my old system, just in case I ever hook it up to the internet again. Also to have the full run of disc boxes.

[Luvbunny]

They should let PS2 users in US/EU to purchase content ID via Playonline service and download it there. Or buy the content ID via SE website and give them a download link separately so they can burn it on a CD and install it on PS2. Digital distribution may be the best and cheapest method to reach those who are still playing it on PS2. I wonder why they dont just make the japanese disc as universal one and sell the PAL and NTSC version (without region lock). Probably bureaucracy red tape that prevent this, oh well, hope you guys get some resolution. Or go with options XYZ, lol, buy xbox or PC :)

[Kirito_Wind]

Yes, anyone willing to donate a significant enough sum of money should use that money to switch to a more modern platform.

That's why this proposal is ridiculous. Defend the PS2 all you want, it's playerbase is holding the game back.

It really depends on the community. The reason SE decided to keep the ps2 version for Japan was because ps2 is much bigger in japan than the xbox 360 and there are a couple of other games that use the hard drive. In the US this is the only game that uses a hard drive, and it apparently isn't that big... It is kind of disappointing (especially because you can't log into the Japanese version with an NA account) but there is nothing that we can do except hope it will eventually become a psn if it ever does...

[Kirito_Wind]

They should let PS2 users in US/EU to purchase content ID via Playonline service and download it there. Or buy the content ID via SE website and give them a download link separately so they can burn it on a CD and install it on PS2. Digital distribution may be the best and cheapest method to reach those who are still playing it on PS2. I wonder why they dont just make the japanese disc as universal one and sell the PAL and NTSC version (without region lock). Probably bureaucracy red tape that prevent this, oh well, hope you guys get some resolution. Or go with options XYZ, lol, buy xbox or PC :)

That is more a hardware limitation than anything and also makes holes for exploits... For one the ps2 does not have the ability to read burned discs like a ps2 game, it thinks of it like a video. Second you need a special code and ribbon on the disc for the ps2 to read it, there is apparently no region free code and ribbon... The only way they could add something similar to what you said would be to allow the game to read USB's and allow the patch to come from there. But that would essentially open the game for exploits and give everyone with a ps2 a free copy SoA software (although they technically couldn't use it without option in account). Personally I would just prefer the ability to log into a japanese version of the game with an english account, since that seems the most doable...

[Necrose99]

One the PS3 or PS4 would require limited work , mainly the kernel.
I think a Free download of seekers seekers of adoulin VIA the Playstation store or self-burned ISO
seekers of adoulin is on ps2 in Japan IE via PC user or etc promo code might work. (buy the pc version or xbox etc , the idea of one being able to freely obtain platform media for exsisting accounts NICE NICE) or If I have purchased Seakers ... the patcher on ps3 will just patch it to seekers etc anyhow.

Everquest 1 & 2 once you buy the expansion , even if the system its on dies , downloading the streaming launcher and login done , wait for it to download and patch , on new pc back in bussiness.

though the ps2 I had died long ago , the idea of an PS3-4 Kernel (game core) version and my pc chair n desk not digning into my back , and the fluffy sofa dose sound appeal. if I riged my ps3 with Linux/Wine .... I could run it.

with Steam coming to Ps3/4 Play on linux offten wraps PC games as a package playable on Linux , and since ps4 caved to Linux less geohot hack it to deaTH AGAIN.... to allow pc games and developers more accsess to ps4 .

Just if SE added general patcher account support (User is entilted Expansions : ? ?? ?? ???? ??) and would pull them in Great. I bought Seekers on PC , and can play it on ps3/4 no extra charge with curent account WOOOT , that'd be a great day.

[Kaisha]

They should let PS2 users in US/EU to purchase content ID via Playonline service and download it there. Or buy the content ID via SE website and give them a download link separately so they can burn it on a CD and install it on PS2.
Or just make it a mandatory patch so they only have to deploy one update for PS2 users, rather than having to do both a "Expansion installed/Expansion not installed" package.

The expansion was only a 200mb download for PC, which was about the size of the patch to begin with, and PS2 updates are smaller than PC also. Really do not know why they had to ship a disc for this on 360 outside of the Seekers Edition which included all prior content. It should have just been a serial key you pay for.

[svengalis]

They actually took a poll over POL and I guess based on the poll results they decided against a PS2 release for the expansion in NA and Europe.

[Werewolf]

Maybe we can do a Kickstarter to drop PS2 support all together and finally get rid of some of the limitations! Seriously though, for the money you donate to keep FFXI running on that 13 year old system you can get a decent cheap PC, download the software and just play your account(s) on that.

I do agree it's stupid to keep PS2 support just for Japan and no other regions, either keep supporting it or drop it completely. The one reason I'm not thrilled about FFXIV is because is going to eventually be limited by the PS3 hardware, which by the time FFXIV actually comes out for the PS3 the next generation systems will almost be available and it's already outdated hardware.

[JiltedValkyrie]

You don't even need a decent PC. I could make you one for $100 that will run this game. Or, you know, buy a used Xbox 360 for $100.

[Archades]

I wouldn't care if they dropped ps2 support as long as they didn't keep treating it as ps2 game.

whats the point of dropping a player-base when you wont even make content requiring more powerful tech.

We all know the truth its not the ps2 its SE holding FFXI back.

[Perdition]

As a former PS2 player, I personally do not think that SE should support PS2 users anymore. I am not positive how large the PS2 player base is, but it is likely that it has decreased significantly over the last 9 or so years since FFXI launched. Not sure of their motive for launching SOA in Japan, but could you imagine them producing a PS2 game in 2013? There is a reasonably priced console alternative that has an install base of over 70 million in the XBOX 360. Eventually everything will be phased out, including FFXI, for now it is just the PS2's time. It had a very good run.

[Perdition]

I wouldn't care if they dropped ps2 support as long as they didn't keep treating it as ps2 game.

whats the point of dropping a player-base when you wont even make content requiring more powerful tech.

We all know the truth its not the ps2 its SE holding FFXI back.

Do you mind elaborating a bit more on this statement? If they are interested in holding their own game back, why would they release a new xpac? I can understand what your are saying on a certainly level, if you were referring to game design issues, but when it comes to the actual product, I would argue SE has taken immense strides since the launch of FFXI. If anything a new Xpac after 10 years says that SE is moving the game forward in my opinion.

[Volkai]

Quick point of note the poll currently has only 11 votes saying how much people would put towards backing an NA PS2 SoA release... But there are 36 votes from people saying they'd buy multiple copies of that PS2 release.

That's not a lot.

[Himrik]

They won't put much money because it's an eleven year old game.
There's a time when you turn the page and move on. Nothing they can do can offer FFXI a new life without basically remaking the entire game.

[Alhanelem]

Just to let you know, you're wrong. Seekers of Adoulin is out for PS2 in Japan, the US users just want what the Japanese users got. Take your "holding the game back"-yadda talk somewhere else please.
There aren't enough US PS2 users to justify the cost of pressing the discs, boxes, and shipping them over here. They probably couldn't even fil a single shipping pallet with the number of copies they'd sell.

The PC you're probably writing this post on can most likely play the game, so why not just do it? connect your PC to your TV and plug in a controller if you want to sit on the couch.

[Sfchakan]

There aren't enough US PS2 users to justify the cost of pressing the discs, boxes, and shipping them over here. They probably couldn't even fil a single shipping pallet with the number of copies they'd sell.

The PC you're writing this post on can most likely play the game, so why not just do it? connect your PC to your TV and plug in a controller if you want to sit on the couch.

In before someone says "I'm not typing this on a PC, I'm typing it on a $500 smartphone!!" /rolleyes

[Alhanelem]

In before someone says "I'm not typing this on a PC, I'm typing it on a $500 smartphone!!" /rolleyes
Eh, I suppose that would be a fair statement. But I personally wouldn't post to the forum from a phone, it's too cumbersome.

Still, I edited my post to qualify the statement more.

[Demon6324236]

Could always be a Wii or PS3 browser too.

[Fusionx]

lol you guys.. PS2 users aren't hurting anything. if they drop PS2 support the PC client won't suddenly be amazing unless they redo the entire thing from the ground up.

The game itself is built around PS2 architecture and then ported over to PC. We are always going to have PS2 limitations.

dealwithit.gif


and for the millionth time

GE- In North America Seekers of Adoulin will not be available for the PlayStation 2. Can you tell us what lead to this decision? It seems a bit odd to increase HDD capacity for the game on the console then only release the expansion in one territory. Why not release the expansion digitally?

SE (Answered by Square Enix, Inc.)- In evaluating the North American release of the expansion across all platforms, we needed to consider multiple factors, including the number of players exclusively on the system, and the costs associated with publishing or developing a stand-alone download. Regrettably, these two factors greatly determined our final decision to support the PC and Xbox platforms exclusively. However, we remain committed to supporting FINAL FANTASY XI on the PlayStation 2 platform for the foreseeable future.

There is no money for SE in publishing the game on PS2 for NA. And idk if you noticed- that's not really something they can afford right now after laying off a decent chunk of people.

[oliveira]

I've been using every NA client of FFXI out there (PS2, Windows, Xbox360) with a Japanese account since 2004... What make people think you cannot log a NA account on a Japanese FFXI client (which I already did and it worked perfectly) ?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

What make people think you cannot log a NA account on a Japanese FFXI client (which I already did and it worked perfectly) ?

In Japan, the Ultimate Collection is PC only. NA PS2 players would not only have to get a JP Adoulin disc, but also find old JP FFXI install media to go with it (aside from a JP PS2+HDD to begin with).

[nyheen]

this ps2 stuff again? you guys. the NA ps2 people wanted it to go. you did a vote on it and now you trying to get it back? just let the ps2 thing die already. check this out... if you guys trying to buy FF on ps2 it lot harder now. ebay amazon etc sells it with the hhd for $80+, playstation 2 network adapter $15+, and a ps2 $40+ =$135 it over priced. you do much better just buying a cheap $100 pc or less and it will still run faster then the ps2.

before someone say "cant play on the tv & controller". well you can so stop making excuses

[wildsprite]

this ps2 stuff again? you guys. the NA ps2 people wanted it to go. you did a vote on it and now you trying to get it back? just let the ps2 thing die already. check this out... if you guys trying to buy FF on ps2 it lot harder now. ebay amazon etc sells it with the hhd for $80+, playstation 2 network adapter $15+, and a ps2 $40+ =$135 it over priced. you do much better just buying a cheap $100 pc or less and it will still run faster then the ps2.

before someone say "cant play on the tv & controller". well you can so stop making excuses

of course they can play on a TV with a controller, many video cards even cheap ones come with HDMI out on them and there are a lot of really good game controllers for the PC as well, many of which have the exact look and feel of a PS/PS22 Dual Shock/Dual Shock 2 and function just like them as well

[Volkai]

lol you guys.. PS2 users aren't hurting anything. if they drop PS2 support the PC client won't suddenly be amazing unless they redo the entire thing from the ground up.

The game itself is built around PS2 architecture and then ported over to PC. We are always going to have PS2 limitations.

dealwithit.gif


and for the millionth time


There is no money for SE in publishing the game on PS2 for NA. And idk if you noticed- that's not really something they can afford right now after laying off a decent chunk of people.

Actually that's the whole idea here. If enough PS2 players are willing to put in the money it would take to make enough copies of the game for them, it proves there's money in it and SE, taking the money upfront, has the profits before it sinks money into the costs.

EDIT: Oh and I already quoted that GE interview earlier in the thread. GJ.

[Alhanelem]

lol you guys.. PS2 users aren't hurting anything. if they drop PS2 support the PC client won't suddenly be amazing unless they redo the entire thing from the ground up.They're really not helping anything either. And while I agree that there wouldn't be a magical overnight change for the game upon dropping the PS2, it would open the doors to certain kinds of adjustments that might not otherwise be considered.


The game itself is built around PS2 architecture and then ported over to PC. We are always going to have PS2 limitations.

Not really.

The game engine is already capable of using higher resolution textures than are normally used in the game. Textures for certain specific things in the game have already been upgraded on PC only.

The two main limitations of the PS2 are hard disk partition space and memory. These two limits essentially do not exist on the PC, since even the worst PCs sold today have more memory than a PS2 and more hard disk space. If the PS2 version uses too much memory, it freezes. If the PC client uses too much memory... windows just allocates more, or pushes something to the virtual memory swap file.

There are already many technical changes and token upgrades that only apply to the PC and in some cases the xbox versions of the game. Cutting the PS2 just makes that easier.

[Fusionx]

Actually that's the whole idea here. If enough PS2 players are willing to put in the money it would take to make enough copies of the game for them, it proves there's money in it and SE, taking the money upfront, has the profits before it sinks money into the costs.

They had a poll about this- the end result was there wasn't enough people that wanted it.

[Volkai]

They had a poll about this- the end result was there wasn't enough people that wanted it.

At the standard price, yes. That's the whole point of this - figure out if enough people are willing to pay enough money to make it worth doing.

Let's look at this with some possible numbers
If you need, say, 5,000 people buying it at $30 per person to justify manufacture, that's
total funds required: 5,000 * $30 = $150,000

Let's assume most of that ($100,000) is a nonvariable setup/distribution cost. That means the per-person variable cost is $50,000/5,000 = $10

So, if only 3,000 people are willing to pay, they would need to pay on average $(100,000+(3,000*10)=130,000/3,000=$43.34)

Only 1,000 would make that $110 per person (on average).


So, at $30 per disc, there's not enough PS2 players to justify making it. But there might be enough PS2 players willing to pay enough to justify the cost of manufacture. That's the whole point of this thread in the first place, Fusion.

[Perdition]

Maybe we can do a Kickstarter to drop PS2 support all together and finally get rid of some of the limitations! Seriously though, for the money you donate to keep FFXI running on that 13 year old system you can get a decent cheap PC, download the software and just play your account(s) on that.

I do agree it's stupid to keep PS2 support just for Japan and no other regions, either keep supporting it or drop it completely. The one reason I'm not thrilled about FFXIV is because is going to eventually be limited by the PS3 hardware, which by the time FFXIV actually comes out for the PS3 the next generation systems will almost be available and it's already outdated hardware.

Ps2 limitations has been a buzz words since forever. Clearly the PS2 is outdated, but could you specify these limitations? The idea that PS2 is holding FFXI back I think is not really accurate considering that they just released a new expansion that can be supported by the PS2 and all other platforms. In all my years of playing, I have heard the PS2 limitations remark, and in some instances I can subscribe to it, yet I have never had anyone elaborate on exactly what those limitations are.

[Perdition]

Actually that's the whole idea here. If enough PS2 players are willing to put in the money it would take to make enough copies of the game for them, it proves there's money in it and SE, taking the money upfront, has the profits before it sinks money into the costs.

This isn't how business or manufacturing works. Everything is manufactured in bulk, SE custom making copies of FFXI for PS2 would not be beneficial for them. It seems that ppl forget that SE is a business, there bottom line is making money. PS2 is not profitable after all of these years in the United States. That is why they are not bringing the game out. Any thoughts of a NA PS2 release are wishful thinking.

[Volkai]

This isn't how business or manufacturing works. Everything is manufactured in bulk, SE custom making copies of FFXI for PS2 would not be beneficial for them. It seems that ppl forget that SE is a business, there bottom line is making money. PS2 is not profitable after all of these years in the United States. That is why they are not bringing the game out. Any thoughts of a NA PS2 release are wishful thinking.

You are wrong. There are sufficient projects on websites like Kickstarter and Indiegogo to prove this is a way that business and manufacturing can work. Proofs: Drifter (http://http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/celsiusgs/drifter-a-space-trading-game), Dungeon Panic (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/superhappy/dungeon-panic-an-adventure-in-friendship), The Trial of the Clone (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/weiner/trial-of-the-clone-a-choosable-path-gamebook-by-za), Ouya (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console), Pebble (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android).

Using the old business model where there is a single set price, an NA PS2 SoA release would not justify its cost, yes. I have no illusions otherwise. That's why the core idea of this thread is to fund it with a new model that shows if the product justifies its cost before any significant amount of money is spent - and in fact that money comes in before it is spent, or shows definitively that there will not be enough money coming from customers to justify its cost, at which point no money is spent.

EDIT: And as for the 'everything is manufactured in bulk' -- that can be addressed easily. Since the backer-funded model starts with a minimum amount of money that needs to be raised, you include the minimum bulk manufacture cost into said minimum funding value. Any discs that are manufactured beyond what is spoken for by backers can be sold through SE's Online Store website for additional income. Those sales will be pure profit (or very nearly so) since the cost for their manufacture was already covered by the backer's funds before manufacture began.

[Kaisha]

The two main limitations of the PS2 are hard disk partition space and memory.
Only limitation is memory. They already increased the partition from 8gb to 19gb last year for all PS2 (and PS3 BC) players, unless you think they're going to magically bloat the game by another 10gbs on PS2 within a couple years.

[Cleer]

The only issue I see with starting this now is.

By the time you got funding, say whatever that magic number is, you will have lost some of the people willing to do it.
Everyday that goes by true FFXI fans in NA and UK playing on PS2 still are thinking about upgrading because they know they are getting left behind. Also, I would like anyone playing on PS2 who hasn't played on a PC or xbox try before requesting more support for PS2.

PS2 is 640x480
PC Well http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/d/db/BackgroundResolution.jpg
The 1st is closest to ps2. where the 3rd is what you can get with PC

I started on PS2 stopped reading disks and tossed it. Switched to laptop till my screen died. Switched to Xbox360 started getting Red ring of death and finally got a PC to play FFXIV on and I play FFXI on it. Out of all of that. PC is the best interface hands down. Followed by xbox360 for gaphics upgrades and 5.1 sound. And finally PS2, if it was the only option to play ffxi today I wouldn't play.


Please try and play on PC or xbox360 you will not regret it.

[Phafi]

The only issue I see with starting this now is.

By the time you got funding, say whatever that magic number is, you will have lost some of the people willing to do it.
Everyday that goes by true FFXI fans in NA and UK playing on PS2 still are thinking about upgrading because they know they are getting left behind. Also, I would like anyone playing on PS2 who hasn't played on a PC or xbox try before requesting more support for PS2.

PS2 is 640x480
PC Well http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/d/db/BackgroundResolution.jpg
The 1st is closest to ps2. where the 3rd is what you can get with PC

I started on PS2 stopped reading disks and tossed it. Switched to laptop till my screen died. Switched to Xbox360 started getting Red ring of death and finally got a PC to play FFXIV on and I play FFXI on it. Out of all of that. PC is the best interface hands down. Followed by xbox360 for gaphics upgrades and 5.1 sound. And finally PS2, if it was the only option to play ffxi today I wouldn't play.


Please try and play on PC or xbox360 you will not regret it.

keep in mind you can probably get a $20 PC at goodwill or something that will run this game fine and connect it to your TV with a $5 cable.

[Alhanelem]

At the standard price, yes. That's the whole point of this - figure out if enough people are willing to pay enough money to make it worth doing.Actually, no price point was mentioned in the poll. Price was not a factor in player's voting.

[Alhanelem]

Only limitation is memory. They already increased the partition from 8gb to 19gb last year for all PS2 (and PS3 BC) players, unless you think they're going to magically bloat the game by another 10gbs on PS2 within a couple years.
hard disk space is a limitation. they can't increase the size of the partition infinitely.

edit sorry bout double post.

[Volkai]

Actually, no price point was mentioned in the poll. Price was not a factor in player's voting.

It was not a factor in voting, but it was a factor in drawing conclusions from the results of the poll.

[Alhanelem]

It was not a factor in voting, but it was a factor in drawing conclusions from the results of the poll.
install base is more what the survey is about. I'm sure that 5 of the 20 PS2 users would be willing to bribe SE with extra money to get them to press a disc for them, but number of users *actively playing on the PS2* is what they were looking for- not "how many people would buy the expansion if they pressed a disc for the US."

Also I don't think the small number of people that would throw extra money at SE would be enough make up for the small NA install base.

There's really just no reason to keep playing on a PS2 other than "I can't afford a used xbox or a 10 year old PC."

[Sfchakan]

People always defend the PS2 and try to justify it. The fact is that continued support of it is taking limited development resources away from Square that could be focused elsewhere. Had Square decided to not release a Japanese PS2 edition of Seekers, imagine where else they could have devoted the extra manpower. Mogfarms? Further bug testing? More quests on launch? We'll never know.

This is what continued support for the PS2 is doing. Wasting resources for a very small population of players who should have converted to a new platform by now. Square should have let them continue to play in the Rotz -> Abyssea areas, sure, but to port Seekers to PS2, do some amount of bug testing, and manufacture a Japanese release? Geez, what a waste of time.

[Volkai]

install base is more what the survey is about. I'm sure that 5 of the 20 PS2 users would be willing to bribe SE with extra money to get them to press a disc for them, but number of users *actively playing on the PS2* is what they were looking for- not "how many people would buy the expansion if they pressed a disc for the US."

Also I don't think the small number of people that would throw extra money at SE would be enough make up for the small NA install base.

There's really just no reason to keep playing on a PS2 other than "I can't afford a used xbox or a 10 year old PC."

So what's the problem with putting up a goal and allowing would-be patrons to try to meet it?

[Alhanelem]

So what's the problem with putting up a goal and allowing would-be patrons to try to meet it?
There isn't.
Good luck though, you'll need it.

The whole point of the poll though was to determine the number of people that still played on the PS2- Not the number of people that would buy the expansion. I'm quite sure that the poll took place before the expansion was even announced, but I could be mistaken on that.

But really, why are you clinging so hard to an antiquated platform? This whole debate is like fighting for your playstation 4, Wii U or xbox 720 to work on an old black and white TV with screw connectors. I've never understood this. Noboy cried when microsoft dropped support for Windows 95/98, nobody cried when later versions of Windows no longer supported 16 bit applications. Nobody was upset when publishers stopped releasing movies on VHS. This is no different. Sony is stopping production/sales of the PS2 even in Japan now, but stopped in the US long before that. The next expansion, if there is one, almost certainly wont be sold on the PS2 even in Japan.

If I bought you a used xbox and a copy of the ultimate collection and shipped it to you right now would you use it?

[Ravenmore]

At the standard price, yes. That's the whole point of this - figure out if enough people are willing to pay enough money to make it worth doing.

Let's look at this with some possible numbers
If you need, say, 5,000 people buying it at $30 per person to justify manufacture, that's
total funds required: 5,000 * $30 = $150,000

Let's assume most of that ($100,000) is a nonvariable setup/distribution cost. That means the per-person variable cost is $50,000/5,000 = $10

So, if only 3,000 people are willing to pay, they would need to pay on average $(100,000+(3,000*10)=130,000/3,000=$43.34)

Only 1,000 would make that $110 per person (on average).


So, at $30 per disc, there's not enough PS2 players to justify making it. But there might be enough PS2 players willing to pay enough to justify the cost of manufacture. That's the whole point of this thread in the first place, Fusion.

You also have to take into account the many retailers that are no longer willing to stock or sell new ps2 disc. Now ou could get around this by using the SE store but then SE would have to deal with he mess of shipping each disc over from a warehouse in Japan or expend more money to have a either a warehouse in the states or reline on Amazon to take care of it since gamestop wouldn't even offer it online.

[Volkai]

There isn't.
Good luck though, you'll need it.

The whole point of the poll though was to determine the number of people that still played on the PS2- Not the number of people that would buy the expansion. I'm quite sure that the poll took place before the expansion was even announced, but I could be mistaken on that.

But really, why are you clinging so hard to an antiquated platform? This whole debate is like fighting for your playstation 4, Wii U or xbox 720 to work on an old black and white TV with screw connectors. I've never understood this. Noboy cried when microsoft dropped support for Windows 95/98, nobody cried when later versions of Windows no longer supported 16 bit applications. Nobody was upset when publishers stopped releasing movies on VHS. This is no different. Sony is stopping production/sales of the PS2 even in Japan now, but stopped in the US long before that. The next expansion, if there is one, almost certainly wont be sold on the PS2 even in Japan.

If I bought you a used xbox and a copy of the ultimate collection and shipped it to you right now would you use it?
Me personally? I would either keep the used Xbox in reserve for when my current Xbox dies, or sell it for money. The UC I would probably keep in case my 2008 Collection and current UCSE discs both died.

This isn't about something I need. As I've posted numerous times in numerous places I largely moved to PC around the time if the WotG release, and added Xbox to the platforms I play on not quite a year ago.

But there are players who for whatever reason (not my business why that is) have continued to play on PS2, and this is about finding a solution for their being left behind that is not switching to a different platform - at this point, if you haven't switched from PS2 to PC or XBox you probably never will - and from what I can see, the idea I started this thread with is the one realistic option remaining, the only one that accounts for the realities of manufacturing costs and requires profit margins.

[Volkai]

You also have to take into account the many retailers that are no longer willing to stock or sell new ps2 disc. Now ou could get around this by using the SE store but then SE would have to deal with he mess of shipping each disc over from a warehouse in Japan or expend more money to have a either a warehouse in the states or reline on Amazon to take care of it since gamestop wouldn't even offer it online.
Actually no, this is not something that needs to be taken into account. Because this model is backer-funded, the majority of buyers have already purchased their copy/copies before manufacturing began, and SE can ship them directly - and we know SE has that capability as they already do so with the XBox discs, and the costs of distributing to retail stores are greater than handling it yourself. Any remaining quantity after the backers' copies are sent out would probably go to whichever already-existing warehouse holds SE's remaining copies of the XBox version. Costs for everything but shipping the remaining copies to subsequent buyers are covered by the initial funding.

SE storing and shipping is not a new thing for them, as they already have two versions of physical product they currently warehouse somewhere and sell and ship in NA - XBox expansion and UCSE discs. No reason a PS2 version could not be added to that existing system unless the warehouse physically cannot hold it.

[Volkai]

But really, why are you clinging so hard to an antiquated platform? This whole debate is like fighting for your playstation 4, Wii U or xbox 720 to work on an old black and white TV with screw connectors. I've never understood this. Noboy cried when microsoft dropped support for Windows 95/98, nobody cried when later versions of Windows no longer supported 16 bit applications. Nobody was upset when publishers stopped releasing movies on VHS. This is no different. Sony is stopping production/sales of the PS2 even in Japan now, but stopped in the US long before that. The next expansion, if there is one, almost certainly wont be sold on the PS2 even in Japan.

As for this 'clinging' question.. I'm not clinging. My case for a backer-funded PS2 NA SoA release opportunity is this:
1} There is no technical reason that not releasing this product holds back FFXI
a) For dropping PS2 support to have any impact, it would have to be done in all regions
b) JP PS2 has this product already.

2} Release of this product through a backer-funded method is inherently profitable
a) We acknowledge there is a certain minimum cost for producing a certain minimum number of discs
b) This model sets a minimum amount of money that must go to SE before SE acts in any way beyond setting up a backer goal and method for backers to contribute money
c1)> If the minimum is met, SE profits
c2)> If the minimum is not met, SE spends no money, thus no losses

d) If the minimum is not met, it also definitively and publicly shows that continuing to support the NA PS2 player base is not a profitable venture for SE. Because it shows this publicly, the clamor for continued PS2 support by NA players is likely to become more muted. Here you go, people that want the PS2 to die in a fire, this is your reason to support this.

Actually it's pretty much just those two points. Through this method the only potential loss is for people who, out of spite, want to deny current NA-region PS2 players access to the expansion. This does not cause SE to lose money, this does not hold back FFXI in any way. This does not prevent anyone from changing platforms. There is no good reason I can see for SE not to go ahead with this.

[Volkai]

Poll is at 65 votes, and 38 of them plan to buy multiple copies of the PS2 version.

Really only 65 people that plan to get a PS2version if it's made, and only 2 that would break a $50 backing value? Yeah, that's not likely to succeed.... I really wonder what the minimum amount SE would need is.

[Kaisha]

hard disk space is a limitation. they can't increase the size of the partition infinitely.

edit sorry bout double post.
The realistic outlook is that XI will be dead by the time it hits 19gb of space. Even then, there's still more room they can partition away.

Unless they decide to completely overhaul XI for some unfathomable reason in the future, they're not hitting that 19gb cap in another decade at the rate the game gets new content.

[Alhanelem]

This isn't about something I need. As I've posted numerous times in numerous places I largely moved to PC around the time if the WotG release, and added Xbox to the platforms I play on not quite a year ago.If you don't need it, you have no reason to be advocating for it. It doesn't help you in any way,


2} Release of this product through a backer-funded method is inherently profitableIt's not profitable enough. Even if those 38 people were willing to pay $100, I still don't think they would do it. And if it got to that point, you could just spend that money on a used xbox or PC that would run the game better instead.

"Shut up and take my money" just doesn't work with SE. I think we can all tell that from their payment system :p

It's simple: they want people to upgrade, and those people should upgrade. This game is going to completely outlast the PS2- Why stick to it to the bitter end when you can make a small investment on a newer piece of hardware that is certainly more useful than just for FFXI (whereas there are so many PS2s out there that don't even read discs anymore that FFXI is all they're good for)

The PS2 was a great system, and it had a great run. But it's time to move on.

[Sfchakan]

Would probably need to sell out a 5,000 copy run to break even on very bare bones production. Talking just the product manufacturing and shipping itself, not the bug testing for non-Japanese consoles. That is a number that's probably not attainable at this point.

[Volkai]

If you don't need it, you have no reason to be advocating for it. And I suppose you think straight people have no business advocating for marriage equality, men have no business advocating women's rights, and so on?

I'm disappointed with you, Alhanalem. I thought you had more sense than this.

[Volkai]

Would probably need to sell out a 5,000 copy run to break even on very bare bones production. Talking just the product manufacturing and shipping itself, not the bug testing for non-Japanese consoles. That is a number that's probably not attainable at this point.

Not every copy would have to sell for the money raised to match that amount, but I agree with you that it's unlikely the required money would be raised.

Still, I think the opportunity to raise this money should be given.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Any limitations due to hard drive size would necessarily affect the Xbox 360 before the PS2. The first HDDs that shipped with Xbox 360's were half the size of the HDD used by the PS2, and the recent redesign of the Xbox 360 means that it is now generally impossible to find a replacement proprietary HDD for older 360 models.

[Alhanelem]

And I suppose you think straight people have no business advocating for marriage equality, men have no business advocating women's rights, and so on?

I'm disappointed with you, Alhanalem. I thought you had more sense than this.
There is a massive, collosal difference between begging for a ps2 SoA disk and fighting for civil rights. Don't you dare try to go there. I'm thoroughly disgusted that you would make wild assumptions about my views on things outside of this game based on a game issue.

[Sfchakan]

Gotta back Alhanelem up on that one, that was going a bit far.

[Kaisha]

Any limitations due to hard drive size would necessarily affect the Xbox 360 before the PS2. The first HDDs that shipped with Xbox 360's were half the size of the HDD used by the PS2, and the recent redesign of the Xbox 360 means that it is now generally impossible to find a replacement proprietary HDD for older 360 models.
The propriety drives in older 360s were so expensive that it'd basically be cheaper to just buy a 360 Slim instead.


Not every copy would have to sell for the money raised to match that amount, but I agree with you that it's unlikely the required money would be raised.

Still, I think the opportunity to raise this money should be given.
Or they can just give the expansion data as part of an FFXI update so every PS2 user has the data regardless of purchasing it. It'd be the only way SE would ever consider SoA in NA anyhow, since I doubt SCEA will even let them release a new disc-pressed PS2 game.

[Volkai]

There is a massive, collosal difference between begging for a ps2 SoA disk and fighting for civil rights. Don't you dare try to go there. I'm thoroughly disgusted that you would make wild assumptions about my views on things outside of this game based on a game issue.
You are right that there is a collosal difference between advocating for a possible NA PS2 SoA release and fighting for civil rights, but your statement made no such distinction. It was quite sweeping:

If you don't need it, you have no reason to be advocating for it. It doesn't help you in any way,

I don't actually assume anything about your views on things outside of FFXI, particularly not based on a game issue. But your statement did not constrain its context to FFXI, and so I stated suppositions (not ones I belive to be true) to point out the full impact of what you've said.

I don't need to be a PS2-only player to advocate for an NA PS2 SoA release, please stop trying to say otherwise.

===========
Original post version:


What is it with today and people making sweeping generalized statements and then getting offended when I take them at their word instead of assuming unstated contextual qualifications to that statement?

Say what you mean.

[Alhanelem]

You are right that there is a collosal difference between advocating for a possible NA PS2 SoA release and fighting for civil rights, but your statement made no such distinction. It was quite sweeping:I shouldn't need to make such distinctions. It's obvious what this topic is about, and my post was about this topic and nothing else. You were simply playing with fire.


I don't need to be a PS2-only player to advocate for an NA PS2 SoA release, please stop trying to say otherwise.Well, you're arguing for the sake of arguing then.

[Bled]

Here is how I see things, is the PS2 holding FFXI back? absolutely. If PS2 FFXI services were dropped would that change the game? absolutely not.

Square Enix's problem is they put all their eggs in one basket with FFXIV and then impatiently pushed Tanaka to release an unfinished product with the slogan "we can fix it as we go". Thanks to people like Wada who single handedly destroyed not just FFXIV but SE in general, successful ventures like FFXI had to pay the price.

Even if SE dropped FFXI PS2 support they would still not invest the money needed to upgrade FFXI past the PS2. I have been extremely dissatisfied with SE in general lately. SE has been coasting on past successes and making excuses for their failed current products (like Tanaka for example that they used as an escape goat for the original FFXIV). There needs to be accountability on SE's part and a realization that the quality that made square soft so popular is missing. A lot of this can be seen through the mass exodus of all the great game designers from SE.

I do not have all the information, I realize that but it is not hard to see a drastic drop in quality from Square Enix. I have always been a raging SE fan, however I wont just blindly buy SE products because of the name alone. I want to see SE succeed and I want them to become the company that i know they can be and used to be.

[Alhanelem]

Here is how I see things, is the PS2 holding FFXI back? absolutely. If PS2 FFXI services were dropped would that change the game? absolutely not. It would definitely change things- not in some big life altering way, but it would free up resources which would benefit the advancement of the remaining platforms.

[Justinb]

I've been playing FFXI for 8 years and even met my irl wife in the Kuftal Tunnel. I've been running my game this whole time on the PS2. I hate it that they came out with a new expansion that I can now not play with my wife! (she's a PC user). I don't have the money to invest in an X-box 360 or another computer just to play the new expansion! Frankly this is ruining the whole experience for me and my wife. I cannot play as the two new jobs, and I cannot go to the new continent. I cannot express how much I want them to come out with it in NA for the PS2 users. Why can they have it in Japan but not here?!?

[Sfchakan]

I've been playing FFXI for 8 years and even met my irl wife in the Kuftal Tunnel. I've been running my game this whole time on the PS2. I hate it that they came out with a new expansion that I can now not play with my wife! (she's a PC user). I don't have the money to invest in an X-box 360 or another computer just to play the new expansion! Frankly this is ruining the whole experience for me and my wife. I cannot play as the two new jobs, and I cannot go to the new continent. I cannot express how much I want them to come out with it in NA for the PS2 users. Why can they have it in Japan but not here?!?

My woman and I started on PS2 as well, but guess what? By the time Treasures came out, we wizened up and moved to PC.

[Volkai]

I've been playing FFXI for 8 years and even met my irl wife in the Kuftal Tunnel. I've been running my game this whole time on the PS2. I hate it that they came out with a new expansion that I can now not play with my wife! (she's a PC user). I don't have the money to invest in an X-box 360 or another computer just to play the new expansion! Frankly this is ruining the whole experience for me and my wife. I cannot play as the two new jobs, and I cannot go to the new continent. I cannot express how much I want them to come out with it in NA for the PS2 users. Why can they have it in Japan but not here?!?

That's what this thread is about. The reasoning so far is that not enough people would buy it to justify the cost a manufacturing and distribution - and with a fixed-price model set at the same price as other platforms have paid, it's probably true. The way around that is this backer-funded model, where we know how much must be invested for SE to act, and the player base either invests enough to make it worth making for SE... or doesn't.

[tyrantsyn]

Just let it die.

[Slaxx]

The Japanese got the expansion on PS2 because there are enough Japanese PS2 players to make it economically viable to release. The North American players did not get the expansion on PS2 because there are not enough North American PS2 players to make it economically viable to release.

I'm not sure what about this scenario is so difficult to understand. If the North American PS2 player base was large enough we would have the expansion on PS2. End of story.

[Kaisha]

It would definitely change things- not in some big life altering way, but it would free up resources which would benefit the advancement of the remaining platforms.
They can't even be bothered to optimize both PC and 360 clients of FFXI, things that aren't bound by "PS2 limitations", I doubt they'd do much if they dropped PS2.


Anyone remember when XI's engine was supposed to receive a DX9 engine upgrade? Boy would that have solved a lot of problems with modern drivers being picky with the game....

[Alhanelem]

They can't even be bothered to optimize both PC and 360 clients of FFXI, things that aren't bound by "PS2 limitations", I doubt they'd do much if they dropped PS2.


Anyone remember when XI's engine was supposed to receive a DX9 engine upgrade? Boy would that have solved a lot of problems with modern drivers being picky with the game....It uses directX 9 for window management, nothing else. It was never promised to recieve an "upgrade" outside of that. They had to do it for windowed mode.

Also in case someone brings it up, xbox controllers use XInput, not DirectX, so fully utilizing directX 9 would not, for instance, solve the xbox controller troubles some people have complained about.

Still, it's more likely to happen if the PS2 is removed from the picture than if it isn't. Cynicism isn't a justification for continuing to support an ancient platform.

[Volkai]

It uses directX 9 for window management, nothing else. It was never promised to recieve an "upgrade" outside of that. They had to do it for windowed mode.

Also in case someone brings it up, xbox controllers use XInput, not DirectX, so fully utilizing directX 9 would not, for instance, solve the xbox controller troubles some people have complained about.

Still, it's more likely to happen if the PS2 is removed from the picture than if it isn't. Cynicism isn't a justification for continuing to support an ancient platform.

Nor is it justification for ending support for an allegedly ancient platform in one region when support for that platform is continued in another region.

[Alhanelem]

Nor is it justification for ending support for an allegedly ancient platform in one region when support for that platform is continued in another region.
Except support even in that other region will eventually cease as well. The only reason it hasn't ceased yet is because the PS2 is still much, much more alive in Japan than it is here. I don't even think you have any idea just how many more PS2s are still in active service in Japan. Companies made PS2 games in japan long after most stopped being sold here.

It's a fact of life that not every region gets all the same games and support. It's the way things have been, are now, and will most likely always be.

Up until VERY recently, the PS2 was still being sold in Japan. It hasn't been for sale in the US for quite some time.

[Volkai]

Except support even in that other region will eventually cease as well. The only reason it hasn't ceased yet is because the PS2 is still much, much more alive in Japan than it is here. I don't even think you have any idea just how many more PS2s are still in active service in Japan. Companies made PS2 games in japan long after most stopped being sold here.

It's a fact of life that not every region gets all the same games and support. It's the way things have been, are now, and will most likely always be.

Up until VERY recently, the PS2 was still being sold in Japan. It hasn't been for sale in the US for quite some time.

None of which is relevant to the topic at hand.

[Alhanelem]

None of which is relevant to the topic at hand.
Actually, all of it is relevant to the topic at hand. We aren't getting the PS2 version because

1) hardly anyone still plays on the ps2, and
2) the ps2 has long since been discontinued, and unsupported, by Sony in the US.

In Japan at the time of the expansion announcement, neither of these were true (But they soon will be).

This thread is begging for a ps2 SoA disk. both the "irrelevant" stuff you quoted and this post explain why we won't get one.

[Volkai]

Actually, all of it is relevant to the topic at hand. We aren't getting the PS2 version because

1) hardly anyone still plays on the ps2, and
2) the ps2 has long since been discontinued, and unsupported, by Sony in the US.

In Japan at the time of the expansion announcement, neither of these were true (But they soon will be).

This thread is begging for a ps2 SoA disk. both the "irrelevant" stuff you quoted and this post explain why we won't get one.

Go back and reread OP. It's not begging, and it's not for a disc.

It's advocating for the opportunity for would-be buyers of a PS2 version to invest the money needed to justify making a ps2 SoA disc.

Something you've already said you have no problem with.