Does anyone else see this job having trouble as a tank?

[Cabalabob]

I just can't see RUN being able to out-tank PLD, even if they add a wave of magical enemies they will probably still have physical attacks and so far my RUN kinda crumbles under physical attacks even if its able to resist practically all magic directed at it. I also see it having trouble holding hate off a PLD, I was checking to see how well I could hold hate against my stalwart shield npc without provoke and I just couldn't keep hate, if I can't keep hate off an npc I really can't see myself taking hate off a player PLD even if I don't have flash yet.

[Tennotsukai]

yeah..i agree. more work needs done on Run

[Horadrim]

I just can't see RUN being able to out-tank PLD, even if they add a wave of magical enemies they will probably still have physical attacks and so far my RUN kinda crumbles under physical attacks even if its able to resist practically all magic directed at it. I also see it having trouble holding hate off a PLD, I was checking to see how well I could hold hate against my stalwart shield npc without provoke and I just couldn't keep hate, if I can't keep hate off an npc I really can't see myself taking hate off a player PLD even if I don't have flash yet.

...RUN isn't supposed out "out-tank" PLD.

Meanwhile, there's obviously adjustments they'll be making to the job. All it really needs is for "Converts physical damage to magic damage" gear and a better way to hold hate and it'd be set.

[Volkai]

Rune Fencer is the Magic tank. Leave the task of personifying a brick wall to the Paladins, focus on making Elementals and mage monsters impotent walking sacks of Exp and Items.

[orakio]

Group 1 and 2 merits are going to be key in determining the fate of Run overall. The framework is there and sound but I believe that a couple solid merits are really needed to give it a use outside of extremely biased content where 90%+ of the damage is non-physical.

What I am curious about is what SE intends for the job outside of the times that it is a tank, because for most content Rune Fencer won't be a tank as a mnk or sam or pal or nin should all outmitigate it on the physical end of things really. I think that Rune Fencer could honestly use some physical mitigation tools outside of just inquartata and a 40% uptime on swordplay, or a boost to its damage dealing such that it serves at least as a tier2 damage dealer, i.e. not drk/war/mnk but maybe 1h job level.

Also, embolden is really subpar for me. Way too much downside for a 10minute cooldown. When you see the kind of tradeoff (133% total potency, 50% total duration) you at least expect a shorter cooldown or more favorable situation on the boost (150% potency, 66% duration or something along those lines). Could use a look, although lets be honest SE won't really change it for 3+ months if ever.

[Volkai]

What happens for those merits (and for JSE of all sorts) will probably depend a lot on what we do with RUN as-is. So let's get to it and show them what we want with action.

[hideka]

Rune Fencer is the Magic tank. Leave the task of personifying a brick wall to the Paladins, focus on making Elementals and mage monsters impotent walking sacks of Exp and Items.
yea but it really only works for you... RUN is severely lacking in the Party defense realm and needs alot of work. Runes need to do about 2x their current damage, Lunge is nice, but the recast is way too long, same goes for like EVERY WARD..... i swear its like SE got a Recast boner on RUN and geo.

[Crimson_Slasher]

What im seeing RUN will be good at, is being a magic sponge, not a true tank. Think of those mobs who tend to cripple the DDs sitting on its toes with aoe damage. Well my thought is if the aoe damage is magical, runefencer trades off a little damage (compared to drk, war, drg, mnk, sam) to shrug off the bulk of the damage. So in a nutshell, a slightly more durrible DD.

[Horadrim]

All the job needs is the very likely "Converts Physical Damage to Magical Damage" gear that you can expect it will get.

Frankly, it is impractical to say anything about the job until we see what the AF/Relic/Empy/Merits will look like.

[Nureus]

Personally from what I have seen for the job there seems to be quite a few problems that come up with trying to make this job into a tank. For taking magic damage it seems like it's going to work quite well but since the job has to melee range and even magic casting classes have melee attacks. The way SE has this job set up for tanking the melee hits we have parrying which well as everyone knows is one of the defensive skills that depending on for your Survival isn't the best bet and Evasion with out bonuses from both Gear/Job Traits/Job Abilities can prove to be unreliable for lowering the amount of physical damage taken. On another note increasing Evasion though gear especially with a two-handed weapon will lower it's damage output which telling from the way this job is constructed is how it's suppose to hold hate other then flash. The only other way of looking at lowering the amount of damage taken physically on this job is to look for -DT or -PDT Gear which the job at least has a few options here with gear like the Dux Set but still no where near the numbers that a heavy armor wearing job or even a slightly heavyer armor wearing job like NIN can wear.

So in my honest opinion for tanking like SE wants it to I think the job is going to need quite a few changes to allow it to take the hits or avoid them while the monster isn't casting. They can do this in many different ways as far as I can tell be it either an increase to duration or decrease to recast on the Job Ability like Swordplay so it can be kept up full time. Adding more Job Abilities that increase it's evasion or parrying depending on which is more preferred to create. The addition of Job Traits like Evasion Bonus is another path that could be taken with the job to lower it's damage taken or even the addition of spells like Reprisal that increase the rate at which RUN can Parry or Evade Attacks.

If the job doesn't get anything like this, an increase to it's gear choices to include heavyer armor sets, a buff to parrying rate like SE managed to do with Shields on PLD, or some kind of improvement to it's tanking physical attacks then I fear that RUN will probably just get pushed to the way side for PLDs with a relic shield that can take physical as well as magical damage with out much trouble. A good example of this if people remember when RoZ was added to the game SAM was Suppose to be a Parrying/EVA Physical Tank and NIN being a DD with Shurikin but people found out that NIN was actually the better choice for Tanking because of the way the game mechanics were set up.

On a final note I know that the job isn't set in stone yet being only about a week old and not having gear like it's AF 1-3 done up yet but personally the more information and ideas that the Dev team can get and the sooner then hopefully the sooner we can see the job patched up and make it into a tank before the player base dismisses it entirely.

[Calysto]

i agree that run is going to have a hard time to tank as it is now(i'm 40 atm).
also, the job isn't really that fun to play to me.
you buff, pop your runes, then you hit.
you can use lunge that repop your runes if you want a little action, but 3 mn is way to long for the only action the job has.
you can ward if a spell is comming.
other that that, hit. ws.
bar spells aren't really hate tools, nor regen/protact/shell.
i have yet to test foil but i doubt it's gamechanging.

to me, like dnc and sch, the job was created as a sub. no real skill and based on main weapon so every dd can use it.

[Nureus]

Did some more thinking and talking to some friends about ideas and one pointed out an interesting idea that would in my opinion help RUN with it's taking the physical hits in between spell casts and that was a buff to Blink to follow more in suit with BLU's Occulation and base the number of Blink Shadows off of Enhancing magic. Again I wouldn't see this being game breaking but at the same time at least making one of RUN's (And many other magic casting jobs) Spells a bit more useful.

As for the job looking like a sub only like DNC has become (SCH at least has uses as a main job) I don't really see this being the case with RUN since well other then a very few defense traits vs magic it doesn't really bring that much to the table that a sub like /RDM would bring for those same jobs other then a En Spell based off of your main weapon's Damage and not your magic skill and slightly better strength.

On the note of hate tools I do have to agree that it's lacking in that department since Flash is it's only native hate tool with out dealing damage and enhancing magic got it's hate nerfed because of people tanking on RDMs. from what I could get from Lunge the damage seemed at least at lower levels a bit to be a little weak since my melee attacks with the En Spell effect were quite a bit stronger the lunge (Though atm no MAB gear to make it stronger maybe that will change when I get access to that gear and more runes) But 3 minutes is a bit long for another hate tool that RUN could be using to help it hold hate as a tank.

Again know it's going to be quite a while before we see a fully working RUN but every idea should help. Me personally I would like to see this as a job that people both enjoy and find useful.

[Horadrim]

Did some more thinking and talking to some friends about ideas and one pointed out an interesting idea that would in my opinion help RUN with it's taking the physical hits in between spell casts and that was a buff to Blink to follow more in suit with BLU's Occulation and base the number of Blink Shadows off of Enhancing magic. Again I wouldn't see this being game breaking but at the same time at least making one of RUN's (And many other magic casting jobs) Spells a bit more useful.

As for the job looking like a sub only like DNC has become (SCH at least has uses as a main job) I don't really see this being the case with RUN since well other then a very few defense traits vs magic it doesn't really bring that much to the table that a sub like /RDM would bring for those same jobs other then a En Spell based off of your main weapon's Damage and not your magic skill and slightly better strength.

On the note of hate tools I do have to agree that it's lacking in that department since Flash is it's only native hate tool with out dealing damage and enhancing magic got it's hate nerfed because of people tanking on RDMs. from what I could get from Lunge the damage seemed at least at lower levels a bit to be a little weak since my melee attacks with the En Spell effect were quite a bit stronger the lunge (Though atm no MAB gear to make it stronger maybe that will change when I get access to that gear and more runes) But 3 minutes is a bit long for another hate tool that RUN could be using to help it hold hate as a tank.

Again know it's going to be quite a while before we see a fully working RUN but every idea should help. Me personally I would like to see this as a job that people both enjoy and find useful.

Every job has a use and can be used in anything -- you just have to find a team willing to accept you and allow you to do your thing.

The problem isn't really the job as much as it is the community climate about how content has to be handled. If we address this mentality that "Zerg or GTFO" is the only way the game can work then a lot more options open up. Frankly all GEO and RUN need is a bit of time, their merits/relic/empy/mythic and they're good to go.

Frankly, I enjoy RUN and I consider it my main right next to PUP. I'm going to be pushing to do more and more on the job as opposed to on other jobs and if I end up not being able to do anything so be it. I'd rather run around soloing and suffering as a job I like than sheeping my way around on jobs I don't even care about just to appease an overly elitist community.

Frankly SE should be ashamed of themselves for allowing that miserable mentality to fester. I love crunching numbers, but damned if they couldn't have done things to avoid having jobs like Red Mage and Paladin become completely outcasts.

[Vanguard319]

I have played Run up to 55 so far, and I have to disagree with the people saying it needs more defense. I was soloing gigas in upper Delkfutt's tower, harboring Tellus twice, and keeping Barthunder up. I found that their lightning roar skill, which would normally hit me for well over 100 dmg, suddenly only does single digit damage, Thunder elementals were a joke, being practically unable to do any serious damage to me. As far as physical damage is concerned, you already have the highest parrying rate of any job, and you tend to evade many attacks (and evading even more while Swordplay is up)

Run is a magic tank, and in that department, it's better than pld. It's all about knowing what element your enemy is strong in, and playing the runes and barspells strong to that element.

[Tennotsukai]

I have played Run up to 55 so far, and I have to disagree with the people saying it needs more defense. I was soloing gigas in upper Delkfutt's tower, harboring Tellus twice, and keeping Barthunder up. I found that their lightning roar skill, which would normally hit me for well over 100 dmg, suddenly only does single digit damage, Thunder elementals were a joke, being practically unable to do any serious damage to me. As far as physical damage is concerned, you already have the highest parrying rate of any job, and you tend to evade many attacks (and evading even more while Swordplay is up)

Run is a magic tank, and in that department, it's better than pld. It's all about knowing what element your enemy is strong in, and playing the runes and barspells strong to that element.

That's cool but at level 99 pld, nin, and a few other jobs are much better as tanks. The hate gain by Run is lack. It would make good sense for a sword master like rune fencer to have more damage dealing abilities... more stances like swordplay but for dealing damage as opposed to our already decent accuracy.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing better ways to keep up with mp, and with that said, more Run specific spells to utilize in helping to tank/build hate. Regen 4 is good. Perhaps, a spells that directs ga spells only at the Run but absorbs the dmg iof any element... like celes. sounds OP, but Run needs something OP to get on par with other jobs.

[Tennotsukai]

I hate typing on my phone...

[Akutenshi]

RUN may not be able to soak up a lot of physical damage, but there is enough -pdt gear for RUN that can mitigate a lot of damage. With a healer they shouldn't have too much trouble. Works fine in Salvage II although somewhat lacking in dps department, but that's expected. I don't think the job is perfect, but just off the bat there is the elemental trial gs RUN can use for for -pdt and some gear. The GS is -13%, wiglen gorgen is -6% (does add magic damage but that shouldn't be a problem with RUN) and flume belt that's -4% and turns some damage into mp. I believe 2%. That's 23% of -pdt right there in three slots. There are also other gear that can be worn in various body pieces that should be able to reach cap. This doesn't solve the issue at lower levels but at 99 it isn't as bad I've found. Job does still need work though. Hopefully the merits will be good and add more hate tools. Fast Cast set for RUN is pretty much a must as well. Very helpful.

[orakio]

The Problem is that Rune essentially needs to be wearing 3 different sets of gear at the same time, which basically isn't possible. The lack of inherently high defenses means you definitely need a -pdt set for physical damage on tough encounter that require a true tank. The lack of real threat mechanics means you need a tp/dd set to maintain threat, and the fact that you are a semi-casting based job without full uptime on foil/stonskin/etc. means that you additionally probably want a fast cast set to help with recast times.

Looking at it another way, you can cover one or two weaknesses of rune fencer at moment through subjobs and gear but not all of them at once. This is much like drg who suffers as a dd because it can either get +attack from /war or +JA haste from /sam, but not both simultaneously leading to sub-par damage for a 2h DD. A rune can gear and subjob for physical damage mitigation for example as run/nin, but going to miss out on the threat tools of MAB for lunges, fast cast for stoneskin/foil, and melee damage to offset their total lack of physical dd tools. Covering the weaknesses of Rune is needed to catch up to Paladin/Ninja as real tank options but isn't possible to get all your needs at once at the moment.

This isn't to say rune is bad, it just needs SOMETHING out of it's merits that increases one or two of the shortcomings of rune fencer to free up subjob options and gearing options somewhat so that they can maintain solid (but not top tier) physical mitigation without totally sacrificing the other needs of the job.