Why did SE lie

[saevel]

I'm posting this because as of this update two things SE previously posted here have been proved to be lies.

Firstly we've been asking for unique enfeebling spells, ones that reduce monster stats like Accuracy Down, Evasion Down, Magic Defense Down, Magic Evasion Down and so forth. The CR replied that there was limited spell space and SE didn't want to create any more spells then necessary.

Then they made GEO with something like 60+ unique spells, many of them copies of others.

Obviously they had plenty of room to create RDM unique enfeebling spells.

Secondly, we asked for aura's for our buffs and again the CR replied it would be too powerful. With Geo getting many Aura buffs this was again proven false. Not only do they get Aura buffs they get nearly unresistable Aura debuffs.

Finally, the unforgivable part. Everything up to now could be understood except this. Those Red Mage "unique" enfeebles we were asking for, they gave them all to GEO. Literally they copied the list I posted here and gave them to GEO.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Geomancer

Not going to list them all, but there is attack down, defense down, magic defense down, magic accuracy down, and most important F*CKING MAGIC EVASION DOWN.

Guys SE just made Geomancer the "master of enfeebling" as their range of useful enfeebles far surpasses Red Mages.

So now I'm wondering, why did SE lie to us when we asked those questions? Further why did SE not include RDM in several of those debuffs, release single target versions for Red Mage. It was bad before but this is just blatantly lying to our faces and then expecting us to be stupid about it.

[saevel]

Here their post about "max capacity" BS.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25480-New-Red-Mage-Spells?p=346123&viewfull=1#post346123


Good evening!

As we are approaching max capacity for adding magic we are in a situation where it is difficult to add new spells on a short-term basis, and this is not only limited to red mage. To clarify, this doesn’t mean we cannot add new magic, it just means we first need to address the expansion of the magic spell capacity, so this will take a bit of time.

Next, in regards to some of the suggestions and requests we have been seeing.

Plague effect enfeebling magic spell:
Since there are already abilities that add a plague effect, we don’t really feel a necessity to add it to red mage’s arsenal. Also, since DoT-related magic spells are scholars forte, this wouldn't be something that is unique to red mage.

Stronger version of Dia/Bio:
Red mages already have Dia 3 and Bio 3 from merit points which are considerably powerful version of these spells.

As mentioned previously, the Development Team is looking into adding new spells that will be quite different from the current list available.

I'll let you guys look up the one where they said Aura's would be "too strong".

[Aarahs]

If you're going to say SE lied, then link quotes showing where they actually lied, not quotes where you skimmed through without actually reading and assumed something.

[Demon6324236]

Lying or not, they fucked RDM like normal. Like he said, they just made GEO a better enfeebler than RDM, which was the only viable role RDM had left it could fill and only if it got enfeebles that were new and unique. As of now, RDM has fewer enfeebles than GEO, many of the possible enfeebles have been taken if not almost all of them, so what exactly is there left for RDM that is unique? Amnesia? Good luck on that, super enfeebles like irremovable Para or Mute? Doubtful, not a ton of use in those anyways since most mobs do not remove their debuffs.

I admit, as much as I love my RDM I am about fuckin ready to quit the job or quit the game, I get screwed every update on upgrades to my job so it can see some use. We need unique enfeebles, nope, we need unique abilities to make us worth bringing, nope, we need light DD gear so we can be a jack-of-all-trades, nope, we need some form of DW, nope. This job wont be fixed, and SE doesn't care, they lie to us by telling us they have plans of RDM, but if so, where are the updates? Where are the plans? Are these like the Death Star plans where I have to send a group of Bothan spies to go steal them for me so I can figure out how to thwart the plan of the SEmpire? Its getting tiring getting screwed, can I have a piece of good news for once that will put me on my job for more than just 1 event, so I have something more to do than CSS ADL on my favorite and main job?

[Malthar]

OMG! SE lied?! Say it isn't so!
You mean, I'm going to get gear that enhances pet TH?! Oh no!

[Economizer]

The CR replied that there was limited spell space and SE didn't want to create any more spells then necessary.

First, the reply you quoted, which is incredibly relevant:


Good evening!

As we are approaching max capacity for adding magic we are in a situation where it is difficult to add new spells on a short-term basis, and this is not only limited to red mage. To clarify, this doesn’t mean we cannot add new magic, it just means we first need to address the expansion of the magic spell capacity, so this will take a bit of time.

Then this one which gives more information:


As some of you have discovered since trying out the version update, the sorting for the magic and ability list was reset. Here's why that happened.

During the version update, we edited the internal aspects of magic data in order to prepare for the below:


Geomancy and other new magic categories/Addition of new abilities
Expansion for existing magic and abilities



Basically, on the spell capacity issue, they've been pretty consistent, at least with spells that weren't already in the dats that they've been holding back because they're afraid of giving certain jobs any new toys (Red Mage's enfeebles, White Mage's nukes for example).

I'd dig up quotes for your other two points because I remember the Community Reps saying something about both points but searching these forums is a total crapshoot. If my memory serves me well I'd say they're not black and white refutations of your points, but they had important information that makes it a little more gray.

Obviously SE does have a track record of overpromising and underdelivering with FFXI, but I think that in this case it is slightly more ambiguous then you're making it out to be. I definitely support the general idea of being worried, especially since Red Mage isn't the only kid on the block having to share toys, but we can't be led astray with exaggeration, especially when we don't need it.

[Luvbunny]

Why can't they just delete Geomancer and give the spells to Rdm and revamp Rdm to be the master of enfeebles and debuffing. They can get rid some of the duplicate spells on geo. I mean, as it is now, Geomancer is neither this or that, with only a few spells worth using, maybe 3.... And lets not forget that Rune Fencer is what melee Rdm should have been lol. SE totally screw RDM with this 2 new jobs, and they could have just revamped RDM and give us Geo spells or Rune Fencer abilities.

[Volkai]

Here their post about "max capacity" BS.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25480-New-Red-Mage-Spells?p=346123&viewfull=1#post346123

Good evening!

As we are approaching max capacity for adding magic we are in a situation where it is difficult to add new spells on a short-term basis, and this is not only limited to red mage. To clarify, this doesn’t mean we cannot add new magic, it just means we first need to address the expansion of the magic spell capacity, so this will take a bit of time.

Next, in regards to some of the suggestions and requests we have been seeing.

Plague effect enfeebling magic spell:
Since there are already abilities that add a plague effect, we don’t really feel a necessity to add it to red mage’s arsenal. Also, since DoT-related magic spells are scholars forte, this wouldn't be something that is unique to red mage.

Stronger version of Dia/Bio:
Red mages already have Dia 3 and Bio 3 from merit points which are considerably powerful version of these spells.

As mentioned previously, the Development Team is looking into adding new spells that will be quite different from the current list available.



Lemme go ahead and bold the bits that make this not BS in the way you claim.

[Demon6324236]

It is still BS because rather than fixing this job they shit on it yet again.

[rufuslupus]

geomancer is atm a -1 red mage, stop it already. square has lots to do with the job still. remember scholar and all the changes it went through. geomancer is in the same position.

yes geo has a easier time doing it, but it's potency is the trade off and it's all fixed numbers like a ninja.

to meet a rdm's level of enfeebles, a geo has to use a ja every 5 minutes. to keep up with a rdm's 5 minute saboteur a geo has to use another ja every 10 minutes. to exceed a rdm's power, a geo has to use both ja's + it's ultimate ja and wait 1 hour each time. is that really a bad thing? we still get to use ours every 5 minutes instead of an hour.

as for new spells i think square is showing us what were getting, from geo. vex, languor, malaise, fade i think that's what were getting.

[saevel]

geomancer is atm a -1 red mage, stop it already. square has lots to do with the job still. remember scholar and all the changes it went through. geomancer is in the same position.

yes geo has a easier time doing it, but it's potency is the trade off and it's all fixed numbers like a ninja.

to meet a rdm's level of enfeebles, a geo has to use a ja every 5 minutes. to keep up with a rdm's 5 minute saboteur a geo has to use another ja every 10 minutes. to exceed a rdm's power, a geo has to use both ja's + it's ultimate ja and wait 1 hour each time. is that really a bad thing? we still get to use ours every 5 minutes instead of an hour.

as for new spells i think square is showing us what were getting, from geo. vex, languor, malaise, fade i think that's what were getting.

GEO is RDM +2 for "enfeebles" or did you miss the unresistable part or the part where they get the entire host of direct stat based enfeebles. That's a really really big deal when your talking a big nasty.

Also guys, this is SE we're talking about. If you asked then why color the sky is they would answer "while not necessarily a shade of aqua is might be a primary color though we couldn't say exactly and azure wouldn't be off the table but we have no intention of saying it's not teal". They rarely flat deny anything, though the aura thing was a pretty cut and dry affair. They didn't want to RDM aura buffs for exactly the reason of what we found on GEO, their undispelable and overwrite anything and negative version of themselves. SE got around that last part by making them all "unique" ailments, something they could of done anytime, including when they gave us that BS answer.

I'm not angry at RUN / GEO, those are two news jobs and people can go snuggle up with them. I'm angry at the blatant disregard for any previous statements and how they think we're stupid or something. Everything they just did they could of done a year+ ago.

[Luvbunny]

geomancer is atm a -1 red mage, stop it already. square has lots to do with the job still. remember scholar and all the changes it went through. geomancer is in the same position. as for new spells i think square is showing us what were getting, from geo. vex, languor, malaise, fade i think that's what were getting.

Perhaps you could enlighten me, where is RDM now in terms of role. Since Blu is pretty much taking over the melee mage slots with their own unique debuff spells. For support, Scholar pretty much has this spot covered, with rdm sub, they pretty much has all the RDM spells and more, plus they can switch to a stunner and nuker if needed and they still have their embrava (for refresh +2). Whm is your number one healer. Blm is the nuker. Apparently Geo and Run is stealing most of the new spells and JA that could have been given to RDM. Right now, you can say RDM is just for solo and people who are looking for something else, maybe fun?? but not bringing anything much to endgame or events unless one of your strategy is chainspell stun.

[Ophannus]

We're jacks of all trades. GEO can't cure, melee, sleep, haste but RDM can.

[Carth]

So it's SCH all over again?

No surprise here.

[Cahlum]

GEOs debuffs all cap at 10%, RDMs go much much much higher. I would like to see RDM get new enfeebles. It won't happen though.

[Demon6324236]

So it's SCH all over again?

No surprise here.Job which will start out kinda questionable, which will end up being better than RDM in any situation you would bring RDM, yep.

[saevel]

GEOs debuffs all cap at 10%, RDMs go much much much higher. I would like to see RDM get new enfeebles. It won't happen though.

Their potency isn't an issue as their unresistable. On anything big and nasty RDMs best enfeebles aren't worth jack. Slow is nearly useless because big nastys kill you with AoE wave motion cannon spam not regular hits. Paralyze won't proc as most NM's are either flatly immune or SE built in crazy resistance so that it won't proc more then once if your luck. Gravity II and it's -40 evasion are always resisted without question, bind is resisted. Anything remotely dangerous will have %140+ (capped at 80) hit rate so Blind is utterly useless. Addle wont' do jack sh!t and their all immune to break. Which leaves Dia and Bio, Dia being a godsend though anyone /WHM or /RDM can do Dia II so the III version is only 5.85% better. Bio is useless as attack down suffers from diminishing returns extremely fast.

Geo on the other hand can do an unresistable Evasion Down, Magic Evasion Down, Magic Defense Down, Magic Attack Down, Defense Down (that stacks with Dia II and Agnon) and Attack Down (stacks with Bio II if you want to waste the time).

And to the person who said they "can't haste / refresh" your wrong. They have the exact same access to Haste / Refresh that SCH does. Geo does not have any native MAB and thus their pretty much married to /WHM and /RDM. That gives them base survivability skills along with MAB I and Haste / Refresh access.

And that's without counting what SE will add with AF / Relic / Emp or other unique JSE gear nor the super buffs that will come in the next three so four months.

[Asymptotic]

Everything GEO and RDM can do stack together, so basically for either to work to its maximum potential you'll need both.

Saboteur + SlowII + Elegy + Indi-Slow is going to be ridiculous,
Dia III + Angon + Indi-Frailty + Box Step will have melees capping attack on powerful enemies while eating pizza and receiving mostly non-attack buffs.

Luopan is really vulnerable though, that will need to be addressed before GEO can really do anything impressive.

[Himrik]

Maybe someone missed the "One Geo limit, one Indi limit".
Saying GEO is the master of enfeeble when it can only apply TWO at a time, at the expense of no buffs and close range is seriously overestimation.

A RDM can cripple lots of mobs with severals debuffs, resistable, indeed, but often landed sucessfully.

Did you think refresh was screwed when you saw that BRD can ballad ?

[Asymptotic]

It's cool that they're unresistable and stack with everything else, but that really does come at great cost.

[Mokeil]

Maybe someone missed the "One Geo limit, one Indi limit".
Saying GEO is the master of enfeeble when it can only apply TWO at a time, at the expense of no buffs and close range is seriously overestimation.

A RDM can cripple lots of mobs with severals debuffs, resistable, indeed, but often landed sucessfully.

The two effects limit is an excellent point! Let's also not forget the fact that these effects are centered right on a Luopon or on the Geomancer in question. This means for them to be affecting anything, they have to be right up in the thick of things. And Everyone knows most mobs these days don't really kill people with regular hits. Its all AoE wave motion cannon spam these days, right? That's going to lead to a dead Geomancer and a smashed Luopon pretty quickly.

Also, better hope that defense down Luopon didn't get smashed too quickly. It costs a rather impressive 294 MP to put it back out again.

[Asymptotic]

You should be using Indi-Frailty and Geo-somethingcheaper/less important since the GEO is more durable and can be Scherzo'd /Protected/Shelled /Stoneskinned / etc.

If you want the GEO to live, it's very easy to gear and buff the GEO to live. Keeping a Luopan alive will be harder, but not impossible.

I mean, for rullz. Geo doesn't exactly need its subjob so procided there is refresh support it could theoretically sub /WAR or /BLU and ride defender/cocoon with tacos.

[Mokeil]

If you want the GEO to live, it's very easy to gear and buff the GEO to live. Keeping a Luopan alive will be harder, but not impossible.

I mean, for rullz. Geo doesn't exactly need its subjob so procided there is refresh support it could theoretically sub /WAR or /BLU and ride defender/cocoon with tacos.

Certainly true! Steps can always be taken to mitigate the dangers of being at ground zero. I merely wished to point out to people that it wasn't just as simple as "cast debuffs and walk away". There are downsides to Geomancy beyond only being able to maintain only two effects - namely the really expensive high end geo-whatevers and the dangers of being constantly in AoE range.

Has anyone tested yet whether the Luopon will endure past the death of its creator? I'm curious, now, to know whether an untimely death will result in both debuffs being lost. For that matter, if a mob moves out of a colure's sphere of influence, does the debuff immediately wear off?

[Spiritmage]

It does disappear, just like any other pet job.

[saevel]

Maybe someone missed the "One Geo limit, one Indi limit".
Saying GEO is the master of enfeeble when it can only apply TWO at a time, at the expense of no buffs and close range is seriously overestimation.

A RDM can cripple lots of mobs with severals debuffs, resistable, indeed, but often landed sucessfully.

Did you think refresh was screwed when you saw that BRD can ballad ?

Bullsh1t

RDM can not "cripple a mob", it can hurl insults and that's it. Or did you miss the part were NM's are immune to most of RDM's enfeebles with the few remaining being of little consequence. This makes RDM the master of Dia, nothing else.

Geo on the other hand has a wide range of unique unresistable debuffs that it can provide.

If it can get one good Geomancy debuff on the NM it's already stronger then RDM. By themselves Geo can do -23% defense on the NM, something that every RDM has dreamed of just SE strongly denied it with their above Dia comment.

And that's without even getting into Magic Evasion Down, Magic Attack Down and Magic Defense Down.

[Perdition]

I'm posting this because as of this update two things SE previously posted here have been proved to be lies.

Firstly we've been asking for unique enfeebling spells, ones that reduce monster stats like Accuracy Down, Evasion Down, Magic Defense Down, Magic Evasion Down and so forth. The CR replied that there was limited spell space and SE didn't want to create any more spells then necessary.

Then they made GEO with something like 60+ unique spells, many of them copies of others.

Obviously they had plenty of room to create RDM unique enfeebling spells.

Secondly, we asked for aura's for our buffs and again the CR replied it would be too powerful. With Geo getting many Aura buffs this was again proven false. Not only do they get Aura buffs they get nearly unresistable Aura debuffs.

Finally, the unforgivable part. Everything up to now could be understood except this. Those Red Mage "unique" enfeebles we were asking for, they gave them all to GEO. Literally they copied the list I posted here and gave them to GEO.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Geomancer

Not going to list them all, but there is attack down, defense down, magic defense down, magic accuracy down, and most important F*CKING MAGIC EVASION DOWN.

Guys SE just made Geomancer the "master of enfeebling" as their range of useful enfeebles far surpasses Red Mages.

So now I'm wondering, why did SE lie to us when we asked those questions? Further why did SE not include RDM in several of those debuffs, release single target versions for Red Mage. It was bad before but this is just blatantly lying to our faces and then expecting us to be stupid about it.

At this point, I am not surprised by the lack of RDM improvement over the last couple of years. I remember when RDM was not highly regarded back in the day, I also remember when we were the Pimps that everyone wanted. Perhaps they will throw us a bone, but in the meantime, I consider my RDM a solo player. At least we still have the tools to do that.

[Crimson_Slasher]

SE's plan was deceptively effective and we walked into it without realizing. We were thinktanked. Plain and simple, we stated ideas of gear we would use, spells we might like, abilities, functions, roles, and they collected them into a nice little file, wrote "good ideas" and flopped it on the dev's desk. He opened and began thoughtcrafting the new jobs to go with the new expansion. Problem, which this is an outrage, any new ideas we come up with are subject to 'theft'. Not to mention how we arent taken seriously anyway.

I agree that im not mad about GEO and RUN, i think they are pretty 'dern nifty 'eyup. But again even if we demand things, make ourselves known, we are just direguarded. And whats worse, while a lot of us are on the same page for what we need, others that saunter into our threads dont see it, and well, any DD would love to convert rdm into a pocket buffer so i dont blame them but, thats not what we want.

Im starting to think we need to do something drastic at this point, but i am unsure what would be the best course of action.

[Volkai]

The only 'drastic' course of action available to you that SE might react to in the way you desire is canceling your content IDs and voting with your wallet.

[Luvbunny]

The only 'drastic' course of action available to you that SE might react to in the way you desire is canceling your content IDs and voting with your wallet.

That will get their attention fast when all the RDM posters here have inactive account on their profile. So far SoA is nothing but a big disappointment, ruining a lot of other jobs in the process, and about to incite massive nerd rage on R/E/M holders very soon lol. A lot of the suggestions on RDM were being considered indeed - as 2 new jobs that is somewhat similar to what RDM could and should have been adjusted.

[Dekusuta]

Part of the problem is several years ago, when the game was stagnating around the time WotG came out and it looked like all the jobs the would ever release was released, there were many many Red Mages in allakhazam (this was before the official forums became a 'thing') who argued incessantly about making RDM more melee worthy.

I remember being rated down for suggesting that it wasn't a good idea to go that route and we should ask for enfeebles. Since then RDM got composure, Temper, Tier II enspells. Pretty much the wishlist of the DD RDM of the day.

Given how slowly SE reacts to problems (look at how Summoners have been severely gimped as BSTs leapfrogged them with PDT pets, better pets, pets with TH and pets with way more HP) I wouldn't doubt they kept those player feedback from 07/08 well into 2010 when they were adding new VW content and they decided RDM needed Temper more than a new major enfeeble.

[Carth]

The above post is half-right.

Allakazham had multiple melee RDMs that were studying how effective Melee RDM can be, and it was started with a parse showing a level 75 RDM/NIN in a ToAU EXP party, and it showed he was pretty damn good. That (re)sparked the interest.

So yeah, Alla RDMs wanted melee buffs, but just like with the clamoring for enfeebles on the official forum, it was given to use halfheartedly. Composure was the only good thing out of that list. Tier II Enspells are shit, and we never asked for Temper.

So no matter what way you look at it, SE's been giving half-hearted buffs to RDM, and in some cases severe nerfs. Nothing has changed regardless.

Has anyone looked at RDM/GEO and RDM/RUN?

[Losie]

Lying or not, they fucked RDM like normal. Like he said, they just made GEO a better enfeebler than RDM, which was the only viable role RDM had left it could fill and only if it got enfeebles that were new and unique. As of now, RDM has fewer enfeebles than GEO, many of the possible enfeebles have been taken if not almost all of them, so what exactly is there left for RDM that is unique? Amnesia? Good luck on that, super enfeebles like irremovable Para or Mute? Doubtful, not a ton of use in those anyways since most mobs do not remove their debuffs.

I admit, as much as I love my RDM I am about fuckin ready to quit the job or quit the game, I get screwed every update on upgrades to my job so it can see some use. We need unique enfeebles, nope, we need unique abilities to make us worth bringing, nope, we need light DD gear so we can be a jack-of-all-trades, nope, we need some form of DW, nope. This job wont be fixed, and SE doesn't care, they lie to us by telling us they have plans of RDM, but if so, where are the updates? Where are the plans? Are these like the Death Star plans where I have to send a group of Bothan spies to go steal them for me so I can figure out how to thwart the plan of the SEmpire? Its getting tiring getting screwed, can I have a piece of good news for once that will put me on my job for more than just 1 event, so I have something more to do than CSS ADL on my favorite and main job?

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's a sad darn story. You want RDM to be a guaranteed-must-have in every single party, alliance, etc.? Well, I'm sure there are quite a few other jobs who have been the backseat red-headed step children for years, if not since their job came out, that would love the degree of desirability that red mages have long commanded.

Just play your character and enjoy the job - if the only reason you play RDM is because it's "the best" or something, then play whatever else is best. If you play RDM because you like it, then submit some ideas or something useful.. but this boohoo GEO got stuff I wanted for RDM so now I'm all mad is just silly. There are a lot of jobs that could use some more attention than red mages and have been left on the back burner for too long.

[Demon6324236]

You want RDM to be a guaranteed-must-have in every single party, alliance, etc.?No, not all events, simply more than one event. When My LS tells me I can only go RDM to a single event while I must go SCH for literally every single thing we do besides that one its quite annoying. When I am able to come to a couple more events with my RDM without it being just a reject, Ill be a little less angry about it all, till then, not so much.


If you play RDM because you like it, then submit some ideas or something useful...I have done just that many times, the same as many RDMs have, yet I have not seen a single meaningful adjustment to the job except Temper in probably about two years, and most would argue even that was worthless because it is a self only buff. Inform me of when SE starts to actually listen, so that I may continue to submit my ideas, until then it seems as though RDM ideas are simply given to other jobs or completely ignored.

[ManaKing]

Ummmm hmmmmm. This topic is ripe with butt hurt. Funny thing is I haven't had this much fun with my RDM in a long time. SoA is very solo friendly to.....lets see here....RDM, PUP, and PLD? How will I ever deal with the fact that people are hitting a wall when trying to fight mobs that I can easily solo AND land gravity II on? Probably with giggles. This probably won't last forever, but that's fine.

The spells may or may not come and I don't think that they lied to us, BUT they did what they always did, showed us that we aren't more important than any new job. They went out of their way to fix their game so they could squeeze in another job and dealt with RDM like they always have, with indifference.

We are better off than we probably ever have been on all sides. We have good cure potency. We are on relevant nuking gear. Our Enfeebles only balk when mobs are designed to make them Balk. Our Melee is stronger than it has ever been thanks to being lvl 99 for better subjob support and Temper. If you care about Enhancing, which I do, Stoneskin can be geared to be very robust and is probably my favorite thing about RDM currently. It really is my, I just don't give a F*** button. And blink can be almost instantly cast with almost no recast.

We are well rounded and many jobs should and probably will become jealous of were we are again. It seems we are just so used to what we don't like about RDM that we really don't seem to appreciate what we do have.

That being said, we could still use SOME small tokens and job specific adjustments, but I think people are really taking this the wrong way.

[Luvbunny]

Well then, all of you RDMs out there, let's don our red coats and use whatever subs that pleases you, and explore the new areas. Have fun!! And don't get eaten by Umbril, I saw a Blue got smacked pretty bad lol.

And for the love of god, please keep it to yourself if you find out how awesome you are in the new expansion. We do not need a bunch of threads and youtube videos showing how RDM soloing everything in SoA areas..... I don't think SE overcome their horror and shock over Avesta's Youtube Videos of the golden age of RDMs. We don't need another "adjustment".... :mad:

[Economizer]

Stoneskin can be geared to be very robust and is probably my favorite thing about RDM currently. It really is my, I just don't give a F*** button. And blink can be almost instantly cast with almost no recast.

I would really like to see higher tiers of both for White Mage and Red Mage, or at least better scaling for players that were bothered to build an Enhancing set.

[Miiyo]

Don't worry. Reive is spitting on ALL mages right now. Just continue what you were doing before the ZONE and QUEST expansion with your mage jobs.

[saevel]

The above post is half-right.

Allakazham had multiple melee RDMs that were studying how effective Melee RDM can be, and it was started with a parse showing a level 75 RDM/NIN in a ToAU EXP party, and it showed he was pretty damn good. That (re)sparked the interest.

So yeah, Alla RDMs wanted melee buffs, but just like with the clamoring for enfeebles on the official forum, it was given to use halfheartedly. Composure was the only good thing out of that list. Tier II Enspells are shit, and we never asked for Temper.

So no matter what way you look at it, SE's been giving half-hearted buffs to RDM, and in some cases severe nerfs. Nothing has changed regardless.

Has anyone looked at RDM/GEO and RDM/RUN?

Considering I was one those way back then that did this testing there was a reason we did that.. You can probably search for my posts showing magic accuracy of enblizzard to figure out how much to math in as average. Also did mad /WAR vs /NIN type setups.

A bunch of us old (as in 2003) RDM's have argued for buffs to all aspects of RDM, not just one. RDM is composed of three jobs fused together, White Mage, Black Mage and Warrior. For a long time RDM's healed not because they were good at it (seriously we weren't) but because that's all they could reasonable do. Refresh + Convert gave RDM a vastly larger MP supply then WHM and thus RDM's were chosen for fast paced melee spam XP parties where the RDM's role was a Cure / haste bot. For big alliance fights the WHM's were still the best healers, they only needed a RDM for refresh. Enfeebles have always been a joke, they were something you did since you were standing there and had 2:10 until the WHM needed refresh again. Eventually CSS was discovered and that became RDM's "niche".

Now from that we can see that all three aspects are woefully underpowered, only a few unique abilities made it desirable. SE has since fixed WHM's MP supply problem, much to the cheering and applauding of RDM's everywhere. SE fixed RDM's nuking potential at the same time, /SCH solves all ills. Then SE introduced composure which was a really good melee buff, lots of casting time saved there. Since then SE hasn't really done squat for any of the aspects. The healing got buffed as a consequence of a buff to SCH and WHM, otherwise nothing else. Temper was a really good start, SE should of followed it through with other similar spells to augment the RDM's abilities.

Anyhow I do believe RDM's everywhere want equal buffs to all aspects, melee just happens to be the most ignored and thus gets the most attention. I'd happily accept a mad buff to enfeebling, elemental damage and support capabilities, as long as melee gets it's fair share too.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Another consideration, is nuking in the current metagame vs ws power. On average 2k+ ws (low end gear in some respects) still can be maintained longer and more efficiently than nukes of equal power. I just had a conversation in ls yesterday actually about the ineffectual state of attack magic damage in the game (outside of wildfire) currently. While its true nukes can hit really well currently, they havent appreciated so much as melee has, and beyond that, it lacks the ability to be sustained. Mp costs spiral out of control and under normal situations, my BLM and SCH are between 1000 and 1200 mp with mp merits. Its not so bad until you take into consideration fire V (not even the most costly single target spell) is 270MP. This means that you can reasonably get off 4-5 nukes before full depletion (before conserves, refreshes, etc).

Could you imagine the revolt if DD classes were told they could only gain tp via regain and /heal and could only ws 4-5 times or use weaker ones 8ish times before being stuck with just auto-attacks? There would be rioting, pitchforks and torches, tar and feathering. Looking at nukes, the cost needs to drop steeply, cast times could too to be brought more in line with the physical blu spells, while shortening their magical cast times and reducing costs. Would it make blu more variable and stronger? Prolly. But helps rdm, blm, sch, and geo, and even drk. Also, maybe some whitemage banish damage recalculations are in order! And if we gave a steeper multiplier to damage via magic burst (3x, 4x) then people might look to utilizing them at times. Course it just changes from melee to magic zerg tactics.

[saevel]

Another consideration, is nuking in the current metagame vs ws power. On average 2k+ ws (low end gear in some respects) still can be maintained longer and more efficiently than nukes of equal power.

SE released a chart that had them reducing the casting time / recasting time and MP cost of many Tier II / III / IV nukes. The tier III's especially look nice with stupid low cast / recasts. If that update goes through as planned then the nuking jobs (BLM,SCH,GEO,RDM) will be able to chain nuke tier III's to their hearts content. That will help greatly in evening up the damage balance, though haste still largely effects melees DPS output.

[Asymptotic]

The nuking change will especially benefit GEO, which literally has nothing better to do (aside from stun) while being a totem.

[Luvbunny]

Don't worry. Reive is spitting on ALL mages right now. Just continue what you were doing before the ZONE and QUEST expansion with your mage jobs.

The recent changes seems favor RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK and mages overall. Straight up melee DD is getting reduced bayld now :P

[ManaKing]

I would really like to see higher tiers of both for White Mage and Red Mage, or at least better scaling for players that were bothered to build an Enhancing set.

Blink scaling with Enhancing magic has been suggested.....a lot...of times and basically went directly to BLU. I personally use it to blink single target nukes. TP moves generally get flourished, but if there really isn't a stun window then you can try to preempt them. Honestly Stoneskin works better for that though.

Stoneskin becomes better every time there is new stone skin gear piece, -enhancing magic casting time, or FC gear (though not really at this point because we can cap). I have everything but the pants off of new Ultima and I have always been happy with the progression and rewards of a good stoneskin set.

[Perdition]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's a sad darn story. You want RDM to be a guaranteed-must-have in every single party, alliance, etc.? Well, I'm sure there are quite a few other jobs who have been the backseat red-headed step children for years, if not since their job came out, that would love the degree of desirability that red mages have long commanded.

Just play your character and enjoy the job - if the only reason you play RDM is because it's "the best" or something, then play whatever else is best. If you play RDM because you like it, then submit some ideas or something useful.. but this boohoo GEO got stuff I wanted for RDM so now I'm all mad is just silly. There are a lot of jobs that could use some more attention than red mages and have been left on the back burner for too long.

I agree with you that ppl should stop whining about RDM, but I think that many RDM have a legitimate gripe in this thread. Redmage has recently had it's entire bag of tricks raided by other classes. It seems that in making new classes, SE seems to diminish the function of previously existing classes. The way SE has done this, is by giving these classes many of the same abilities as RDM, only they make those abilities better and more effective. In doing so, RDM has become somewhat of a depreciated job. Look at a job like WHM by comparison, WHM has some truly powerful spells that no other job can emulate. This makes WHM a major asset to groups of any size. Dnc is not substitute, RDM is no substitute, SCH is no substitute, nothing makes up for a lvl 99 WHM. By having unique abilities, it helps to define your role in the game. This makes you desirable in various different circumstances. So while every RDM does not desire to be wanted for everything, we do desire to have a purpose and function in a group setting. Unfortunately, so many other jobs can do what we do in a PT atmosphere, that we are not needed for anything. This is why RDM would like an update. By adding a unique ability that can be beneficial to a group, we would at least be able to justify our place in FFXI.

There was a time that RDM was one of two jobs that could access refresh, by virtue of this one spell, we could gain access to a PT. This was a good time to be a RDM, but things have changed. Now we lack a unique purpose that can justify us in any circumstance. We may be the best enfeebling class, but landing Para doesn't seem to matter anymore. In the days of ground kings, keeping Para, blind, slow etc... on Nidhogg and Faf was a big deal. Now a days, not so much. If you sift through all the whining, there is a really a sincere request to SE, the request is to make us relevant again, by giving us something to call our own that is actually useful.

[nyheen]

funny when every new job comes out rdm whining about something.
blu pup cor sch dnc and now rune & geo.

[Demon6324236]

funny when every new job comes out rdm whining about something.
blu pup cor sch dnc and now rune & geo.Other jobs would probably do the same thing if they suggested things on their forums and it almost always seems to go to another job or a new job, rather than where it was suggested.

[tyrantsyn]

It's a shame and maybe even a bit mess up. But in the end it's their game. And these forums are here for the purpose of idea's and feedback to make this game better. I for one am glad to see the idea's used. Even if not for the intended job.

Honestly it would have alter RDM a lot to get those abilities and would have rewritten it's role in a drastic way as far as the aura stuff goes. I still think there's room for the single target spells. But lets be honest, this job is never going to get to a point where every one is happy with it again.

[Vicious]

I just want to point out a few things regarding RDM and Enfeebling Magic:

-SE removed the full immunity to most debuffs that has characterized content since, I don't know, 2008? This includes all of the current, relevant endgame content in the game (Legion, NNI, Salvage II, Odin II, WoE, etc.)

-SE added the Immunobreak feature to White/Black Enfeebling Magic, which allows you to counter severe resistance with repeated casts. Keep in mind that they did not add this feature to Ninjutsu, Songs, Blue Magic, Elemental Magic, Dark Magic, etc.

-They adjusted the monster types that use AoE regular attacks to be affected by Slow and Paralyze.

-They adjusted the Attack/Defense formulas drastically in favor of Enfeebling Magic, whether by reducing a monster's attack directly via Bio, or indirectly through standard Slow/Paralyze/Blind. On a related note, if you haven't re-merited Bio3 yet, it's useful again.

There is no need to act like SE is ignoring the playerbase, or RDM in particular. I'd say that the only job that received a larger boost from the structural changes to the game over the past year or so is PLD, and they're not even finished yet.

[Demon6324236]

In everything you listed there was not a single unique enfeeble or ability in which would make you want a RDM along. I can stick enfeebles on my BLU now if I try hard enough simply because of Immunobreak, in my opinion it did more harm than good for that reason, even if its mainly in VW. Also, all that is RDM is not enfeebling magic, our melee is greatly ignored, which is one of the things we need so we are not just SCH without the stratagems and more enfeebling skill.

[Alpheus]

-They adjusted the monster types that use AoE regular attacks to be affected by Slow and Paralyze.


I thought they half added that? It was my understanding that they were able to have para proc but couldn't get slow to affect those kinds of attacks and as such the Slow portion of that update will be implemented when whatever roadblocks have been circumvented.

[Vicious]

In everything you listed there was not a single unique enfeeble or ability in which would make you want a RDM along. I can stick enfeebles on my BLU now if I try hard enough simply because of Immunobreak, in my opinion it did more harm than good for that reason, even if its mainly in VW. Also, all that is RDM is not enfeebling magic, our melee is greatly ignored, which is one of the things we need so we are not just SCH without the stratagems and more enfeebling skill.

You raise a salient point in regards to XXX/RDM(or whatever) but you have to keep in mind that RDM's massive advantage over them in Magic Accuracy through skill/merits/gear (including magian staves) does matter. If you have to cast 10 times on your BLU instead of 2~4 times on your RDM, that's a BLU being extremely worthless opposed to a RDM sticking his enfeebles and moving on to other tasks (not to mention vastly improved potency, which is the entire point of Immunobreak for RDM; it allows you to focus on potency over accuracy on harder targets). I don't give a flying shit about Voidwatch.

As for melee, you should check out the update notes, because SE just gave RDM the single biggest melee gift we never thought we'd get; that, and our melee has vastly improved since 75 through gear and magic. I'm half-convinced that the ones still gnashing their teeth over RDM melee either haven't played the job lately, don't have the gear/skill to support it, don't understand game balance and/or RDM's concept (In FFXI, I also don't give a flying shit about what RDM did in FFV)... or are just going through the motions out of ennui or something, which is understandable I guess.


I thought they half added that? It was my understanding that they were able to have para proc but couldn't get slow to affect those kinds of attacks and as such the Slow portion of that update will be implemented when whatever roadblocks have been circumvented.

I have no idea; I didn't see that post, and I haven't been in a position to notice either way lately, so you're probably right.

[Demon6324236]

As for melee, you should check out the update notes, because SE just gave RDM the single biggest melee gift we never thought we'd get; that, and our melee has vastly improved since 75 through gear and magic. I'm half-convinced that the ones still gnashing their teeth over RDM melee either haven't played the job lately, don't have the gear/skill to support it, don't understand game balance and/or RDM's concept (In FFXI, I also don't give a flying shit about what RDM did in FFV)... or are just going through the motions out of ennui or something, which is understandable I guess.What is this update you speak of that I missed? I know our melee is better, we still get screwed though, I understand balance fine and have the gear to support my RDM, like Excalibur, and the best TP set I know of for RDM, but I still hate that they get mage gear on RUN while we get no light DD sets, people laugh at it but hell, I would take Pink and the new sets from Adoulin like RUN has for both light and DD sets. Rather than getting that kind of treatment though we are mage only, disappointing.

[Demon6324236]

I would still like to know about this thing SE 'just gave RDM the single biggest melee gift we never thought we'd get' and what exactly it is, cause after reading over the notes again I am still left clueless.

[Perdition]

funny when every new job comes out rdm whining about something.
blu pup cor sch dnc and now rune & geo.

Not exactly... I remember when Blu & Pup arrived, Blu was nowhere near what it is today and RDM were still very coveted. Rdm never cared about Pup, nor dnc and I don't see how RDM even cares for Run either. Rdm concerns primarily exist in the realm of other jobs essentially taking all of our innate abilities and making them better, thus rendering RDM useless. Especially considering that a /50 rdm sub has access to many good rdm spells. If SE is to make a new job, they should come up with some unique abilities that distinguish the new jobs from the old jobs.

[ManaKing]

I don't know anything about just gave, but Composure, Temper, Gain-STR, Dia III, and Requiescat have sated me lately. I usually TP at around 165 STR and not enough Attack to make DD headlines so I'm not really affected by the recent 1H adjustments. We didn't lose any potency nor toughness, which is good though.

TP gear is pretty crap, but WS gear is pretty attractive if you like Salvage.

ALSO gravity II landing on mobs in adoulin and me needing to use it and it working well has made me very happy.

Overall, I don't see why we should be complaining as much. We need the elemental magic adjustment to affect us somewhat positively and for it to be relevant and we could use some somewhat better TP gear, but RDM isn't going anywhere except into Adoulin as it pleases, which plenty of jobs cannot easily claim.

The only thing I'm not aware of is if new NMs are quasi-immune to enfeebles. That's about the only flash point I could perceptibly go off on. I have faith in SEs ability to anger me, but right now they seem to be doing ok. The lack of Occult Accumen and the current state of enspells + Excalibur will always bother me and most likely never be resolved.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Ill agree for me, the biggest issue is gear. Sitting on maat's cap and antares harness (or vara brigandine, kuzdu aketon) as well as 6 dex feet with no other beneficial stats, while pld and blu are stacking 11+ dex(AND STR) in most slots for CDC. And AGI is somewhat scarce for rdm too, so Extenterator arent anything amazing. If death blossom had a more potent str component and higher FTP then that would work, but the issue is somewhat in the ws department vs its mods and gear for it. Also dunno why, but Requiescat doesnt seem to work for me at all. I average pretty lame damage with this build http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/262215 (yes i know, room for improvement here or there, but averaging 1200s with str shikargar dual wield or even using a Sanus Ensis offhand doesnt seem to have the muscle im looking for. Tests in zeruhn mines and other locations, including abyssea, other relevent info is str/dex merits and sword capped merits). Course once i finish my Mori+1 gear that may change.

[ManaKing]

What's your main-hand?

What's your merits?

Moon shade earring wants you to make it and so does Morrigan's +1. But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

Your setup makes sense, but your output is low depending on what you are fighting. There are some mobs were KoR or DB does just as much as Req because of the Atk penalty or because they take reduced physical damage unrelated to weapon type so that Req isn't doing extra work for you.

[Mirokumiyazaki]

What is this update you speak of that I missed? I know our melee is better, we still get screwed though, I understand balance fine and have the gear to support my RDM, like Excalibur, and the best TP set I know of for RDM, but I still hate that they get mage gear on RUN while we get no light DD sets, people laugh at it but hell, I would take Pink and the new sets from Adoulin like RUN has for both light and DD sets. Rather than getting that kind of treatment though we are mage only, disappointing.

I'm curious about this update as well... I'm not seeing it on any of the boards unless I'm blind.

[Vicious]

The maximum amount of damage dealt based upon the attack-to-defense ratio is now the same for both one-handed and two-handed weapons.
Therefore, there will now be occasions where the amount of damage dealt with one-handed weapons will be greater than before.

Seriously guys, it's right there in the update notes in boldface.

[Raksha]

The maximum amount of damage dealt based upon the attack-to-defense ratio is now the same for both one-handed and two-handed weapons.
Therefore, there will now be occasions where the amount of damage dealt with one-handed weapons will be greater than before.

Is probably what he means.

EDIT: Damn customers interrupting me.

[Mirokumiyazaki]

Seriously guys, it's right there in the update notes in boldface.

I figured you meant something specific for RDM...

[Demon6324236]

I forgot, I always cap attack on RDM when fighting mobs... oh wait...

Let me be more specific in my sarcasm. A DC Dyna mob has roughly 435 Defense according to the spreadsheets, before the update the attack cap was 2 times that against them, which would mean 870. In full Attack TP gear which is my standard, I am running about 640 at tops, in Req gear I am running about 670 not counting the nasty penalty which puts me much lower than that. So neither of these times am I capping, now add in Dia III, -15% Defense. 435-15%=370 defense, which is then doubled to find the attack cap is 740. So again, my RDM still does not hit the cap that used to be set in place, let alone the new cap which is around 832 or so. Basically, this update did nothing for my RDM except make my melee fall even further behind that of other light DDs, yay.

[Vicious]

I figured you meant something specific for RDM...

Then you read my post wrong.


I forgot, I always cap attack on RDM when fighting mobs... oh wait...


Basically, this update did nothing for my RDM except make my melee fall even further behind that of other light DDs, yay.

Sure, if all you do is melee things solo. Now, add any job that increases party attack and/or reduces enemy defense and suddenly, it's incredibly relevant. The entire point is that 1H wielders had an artificial cap in place to limit their damage potential compared to 2H wielders, which is why nobody wanted anything but WAR DRK SAM for serious endgame applications; now, the playing field has been leveled. (Also, DRK was pretty much the only DD that was capable of capping attack against anything remotely threatening without outside help, so that's not really a good argument to use.) This is an enormous boost to RDM melee in high-buff situations, and makes it much more viable.

In other words, if you are content to continue pigeonholing your melee game to trash content, be my guest; but don't belittle how amazing this change is for those of us who understand it.

[murasakishikibu]

they have very strong tendency of keep lying.... i dont know why.

[Demon6324236]

In other words, if you are content to continue pigeonholing your melee game to trash content, be my guest; but don't belittle how amazing this change is for those of us who understand it.No, I fully understand it, RDM still has no unique enfeebles outside of Dia III which are relevant, it still lacks the light DD gear to actually make it decent even with its self buffs. So neither its own melee is really better, or its overall use, we can make mobs defense lower, thats the same as before, but I see no extra options for my RDM to melee now than I had before. Maybe once more STR goes to attack things will looks better, I TP with +56STR so I would get another extra +14 attack from it, but this change has done basically nothing for my RDM in anything I do, even the gear is bleh.

This update helped other jobs, it helped some single handed jobs who people look at as DDs, but RDM is not one of them, for instance, THF or NIN can sub WAR, they have that big boost in attack which puts them near attack cap with little buffs. My RDM on the other hand is forced to sub NIN for great DW, has no attack buff, so I get to melee something like Qilin where I can not possibly cap attack, even with a COR and Stalwarts I think I only barely capped pre-update, and no longer cap.

[Vicious]

Based on the above post, no, you really don't understand it. I would try to explain further but I don't know how to put it in simpler terms. I apologize for my failure in this matter.

[Demon6324236]

Based on the above post, no, you really don't understand it. I would try to explain further but I don't know how to put it in simpler terms. I apologize for my failure in this matter.Well feel free to try explaining in more detail. It sounds as though your reasoning for why this update is amazing and helpful to RDM is because we can lower the defense on mobs and are no longer stopped by a 2.0 cap instead of a 2.25 cap like 2 handed jobs. If that is the case, my response is simple, we do not have the tools to cap attack anyways so the attack ratio change helped us personally in no way at all, and on the other hand, people are more likely to bring a SCH/RDM or a WHM who can Dia II it which is only 5% weaker, and most of the time, gives you a job which is more capable at doing other duties.

When someone can come here and exlpain what amazing use this update had that I am apperently missing, please let me know, because for now it is flying right over my head it would seem.

[Vicious]

If that is the case, my response is simple, we do not have the tools to cap attack anyways so the attack ratio change helped us personally in no way at all

No job in the game can both cap attack and survive long enough to kill anything dangerous/worthwhile while solo, especially after the recent changes to the ATK:DEF calculations. This only occurs when you have support. Essentially, you're comparing megabuffed 2H DDs with healing support to a solo melee RDM. This is absurdly illogical.

2.00 > 2.25 makes an enormous difference in damage output. It's not going to put you on the same level as the usual heavy DD suspects, but it sure as shit will make your melee output much more worthwhile in those situations.. especially when you consider that you can still heal/nuke/buff/debuff quite well on demand, unlike dedicated DD classes.

I'm sure it's going to be tempting to counter with "Well nobody would ever invite a RDM to a party to fill that role," but that's a Catch-22. One cannot blame SE for the playerbase's aversion to change; that falls squarely on our shoulders.

[Demon6324236]

2.00 > 2.25 makes an enormous difference in damage output.Did you misunderstand what they did here? They adjusted attack cap for single handed weapons, that is all, so unless you are in fact hitting that cap the change did absolutely nothing. As I said above, RDM can not cap attack, thus, it does nothing for RDM in a melee capacity. Now if you quoted and argued that the changes between a mobs attack and our defense made us more helpful because then DDs could cap attack more easily without offering up their defense to do so, perhaps your argument would be stronger. Instead it seems as though you are saying because they did the 2.0 to 2.25 change we are somehow much more powerful, when really we personally gained nothing from it, only other jobs who are single handed and yet can cap attack, which are are not. Its not like they gave us a 25% or 12.5% bonus to our overall damage with no strings attached, its on the condition we can buff our attack that high, which RDM lacks the ability to do.


I'm sure it's going to be tempting to counter with "Well nobody would ever invite a RDM to a party to fill that role," but that's a Catch-22. One cannot blame SE for the playerbase's aversion to change; that falls squarely on our shoulders.I take my RDM for this use so its not really like I would say that no one would do it, but rather there are not many cases where you want to do it. If RDM were able to heal in the same way that SCH is, meaning with Regen that does it over time, it would be much more useful because you could cast a single spell and let it heal while you divert your attention elsewhere, in most cases however RDM ends up being so caught up in buffing, healing, and debuffing, that melee is hard to do, and more often than not ends up being a waste of your time. Now if RDM had a trait that let them cast and attack at the same time, perhaps RDM would get more use on the front lines, but thats a different subject completely.

[Vicious]

As I said above, RDM can not cap attack, thus, it does nothing for RDM in a melee capacity.

You clearly do not play other melee jobs. The only job that comes remotely close to capping attack on their own is DRK, which is only on weaker targets, and requires them to reduce their defense to the point that the new ATK : DEF changes kick their teeth in, which makes it a moot point. If you die before the monster does, your attack might as well be zero.

The fact that RDM cannot cap attack on its own is irrelevant, as no job can.

The only way it's possible is with buffs, which RDM is just as capable as receiving as every other job in the game. Your argument is completely invalid. As I said a few posts ago, rather presciently, I don't know how I could possibly make this any simpler to understand.

Also, on a related note.. if you're getting marches (the baseline in any high-buff situation), /NIN is ridiculously overkill. You should be using /DNC for Box Step, further increasing your contribution to the party. Hell, /WAR might even win depending on the buffs you're getting, but that'd involve more variables and math than I'm willing to crunch this late, so that's just a hypothesis.

[Demon6324236]

As I said a few posts ago, rather presciently, I don't know how I could possibly make this any simpler to understand. I don't know how I could possibly make it any simpler to understand either, that this update did not in fact help RDM as much as you claim if at all! If no job can hit attack cap, then guess what, the entire adjustment did nothing anyways, so I guess that the update you claimed...
gave RDM the single biggest melee gift we never thought we'd get...did nothing for us anyways, because no job capped before, the cap is all that changed, so no job can cap it now either, except possibly DRK, which is in fact the primary melee job I play.

[Vicious]

If no job can hit attack cap, then guess what, the entire adjustment did nothing anyways, so I guess that the update you claimed...

I clearly stated several times that no job hits the cap solo. They require buffs to do so, which are equal-opportunity.

If the only counterpoints you make rely on cherrypicking my posts out of context... You could always just concede, y'know. It won't make you less of a person. There's only two reasons I can think of for you to continue at this point; either you wear a helmet for everyday activities, or you're being willfully obtuse, because the logical fallacies that comprise the bulk of your arguments are pretty lightweight.

[Demon6324236]

Ok, with buffs, as I stated before, my RDM barley used to cap on Qilin, the easiest of VWNMs, and one of the few high tier things you could really fight as RDM. When was the last time you took a RDM with you into Dyna as well as a COR & a BRD so that it was possible to cap their attack on DC mobs? Never? Ok then, looks like we solved that problems. Simple fact is the update did nothing unless you are capping attack, on RDM that hardly ever happens because we have never gotten Brave as a spell which would enhance our Attack/Acc, if we did, we could say this update helped, in my opinion it did nothing except make Dia III a bit more useful in some cases.

I am not attempting to 'cherrypick' your posts either, most of them have said the exact same thing, that somehow that capped attack ratio being changed is this super amazing update that RDM got which is so powerful for us. In reality we get little if anything from it, in my opinion we lost more than we gained, how? I used to go in VW and do no worse than THFs or NINs going all out, capping their attack, because my RDM had a little less attack and yet better gear and could keep up off of WSs and higher damage on my weapons, now, not so much, because the attack gap got bigger between us, and it put them ahead. Is that a personal problem? Yes, it is, but its also a detail, we have lower attack than other jobs no matter how you look at it and if that is the case this update put us further behind other jobs, rather than putting us ahead, because we have the hardest time capping with buffs or without them.

If I have 640 Attack, and the THF in my party has 650 Attack before buffs, we are not to far apart. When that THF uses Berserk and Aggressor, their Attack and Accuracy far exceed mine, but lets just go with attack like we have been. Berserk is a +25% increase, so that alone puts their attack at 812, Chaos, assuming the COR has Relic+2 head that would be +35% more, so RDM would goto 864 while the THF goes to 1096. See that giant gap? So unless the RDM caps attack, the THF will likely have a huge advantage over RDM in attack, which is a problem for RDM meleeing, because now even the single handed jobs are able to pass it up in damage where as they used to be on somewhat even ground.

Though this is really getting annoying, you will probably just say what I said is irrelevant and tell me how this change with buffs somehow makes RDM better still than it was even though hitting the cap is highly unlikely you will get said buffs unless your in content where you still will probably not be capping with them anyways.

[Vicious]

Right, mainly because you only mention a handful of the many, many ways to tilt the ratio in RDM's favor and/or dismiss them outright. Last time I checked, in high-buff situations I'm getting at least two Minuets, Chaos, Warcry rotation at the absolute least, as well as eating attack food and applying Dia3, Angon, etc. If you aren't capping attack in these situations, even at the new cap, you suck, plain and simple. It is irrelevant if other 1H jobs start at a slight advantage in attack, it still caps at the exact same value for all jobs, and RDM is more than capable of reaching it in spite of their slight disadvantage. Also, as stated above, /NIN is always the wrong subjob choice in these situations, so you're doing it wrong right from the start, making your analyses invalid. Go away already.

[Demon6324236]

Also, as stated above, /NIN is always the wrong subjob choice in these situations, so you're doing it wrong right from the start, making your analyses invalid. Go away already.Ok, /NIN is the wrong subjob when DDing on RDM. I will just go away, you obviously know much more than me when it comes to DDing on the job...

[Vicious]

Are we nuking posts without comment now SE, or are your servers just garbage?

...I suppose it's the latter, then. I'm not sure which is worse; the general lack of intelligence among the posters here, or SE's inability to run a low-traffic forum in 2013. Either way, I won't be wasting any more of my time with this dreck.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Few days late but time to respond.


(#1A)What's your main-hand?

(#2A)What's your merits?

(#3A)Moon shade earring wants you to make it and so does Morrigan's +1. But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

Your setup makes sense, but your output is low depending on what you are fighting. There are some mobs were KoR or DB does just as much as Req because of the Atk penalty or because they take reduced physical damage unrelated to weapon type so that Req isn't doing extra work for you.


Ill agree for me, the biggest issue is gear. Sitting on maat's cap and antares harness (or vara brigandine, kuzdu aketon) as well as 6 dex feet with no other beneficial stats, while pld and blu are stacking 11+ dex(AND STR) in most slots for CDC. And AGI is somewhat scarce for rdm too, so Extenterator arent anything amazing. If death blossom had a more potent str component and higher FTP then that would work, but the issue is somewhat in the ws department vs its mods and gear for it. Also dunno why, but Requiescat doesnt seem to work for me at all. I average pretty lame damage with this build http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/262215 (yes i know, room for improvement here or there, but averaging 1200s with

(#1B)str shikargar dual wield or even using a Sanus Ensis offhand

doesnt seem to have the muscle im looking for. Tests in zeruhn mines and other locations, including abyssea, other relevent info is

(#2B)str/dex merits and sword capped merits).

(#3B)Course once i finish my Mori+1 gear that may change.

So as you can see, kinda thought of the same things you just asked. Still not feeling that umph. Race is hume male, sub of either dnc or nin, still doesnt give me that snap i want to feel.

[ManaKing]

I'll tell you as an Elvaan with STR/MND merits and an Excalibur, Req is very powerful, very consistent, and in some cases very broken. Dia 3 + Box step lvl 5 does good things for your numbers.

I doubt I would play RDM as anything but Elvaan with my merits as they are. It doesn't mean I think you shouldn't, but I intentionally made this character because I wanted to to be a melee RDM that used DB, which then was amended into Req (I still love DB). Yeah I made a relic, it only took a couple of months of daily dynamis. I'll probably make a mythic if i play for long enough.

[Yinnyth]

I clearly stated several times that no job hits the cap solo. They require buffs to do so, which are equal-opportunity.

BRD/NIN with gjallarhorn can reach the 80% delay reduction cap by themselves. I think even BRD/DNC can too... forget what the dualwield level is on /DNC.

And as long as I'm here, yeah, RDM has it rough right now, but some jobs have it worse, and GEO isn't as good as people make it out to be. GEO specializes in AoE damage and auras, but they lack any native crowd-control besides gravity aura. The only way they could sleepga that angry swarm of enemies they just hit with thundara II is if they subbed SCH and used a book. Or /BLM if it's trash enemies with no resist at all... or elemental seal I guess...

My point is that GEO lacks several things RDM gets. RDM has vastly better survivability, vastly better crowd control, the ability to inflict more than 2 status effects on an enemy at any given time, the ability to grant more than 2 buffs on allies at any given time, and better melee abilities. The biggest thing GEO has going for them is that defense down aura which caps at 13%.

[Asymptotic]

BRD/NIN needs Oynos Knife to floor delay without Soul Voice - I guess that counts but it's a specific enough requirement that it should be mentioned

BRD/DNC cannot do it without Soul Voice - but if we're counting SP then MNK can hit the floor

[Yinnyth]

BRD/NIN needs Oynos Knife to floor delay without Soul Voice - I guess that counts but it's a specific enough requirement that it should be mentioned

BRD/DNC cannot do it without Soul Voice - but if we're counting SP then MNK can hit the floor

Eh? I could be wrong on this, but I was under the impression that /nin dualwield is 25% delay reduction. Combined with 25% gear haste, that's 50% and you only need another 30%. With march +5, double march gives 320/1024 or 31.25% haste.

I suppose I might be wrong about the dualwield thing, but I was under the impression it stacked additively to all other forms of haste, except that dual wield(and martial arts, and anything else that gives delay-%) also decreases TP return.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong about this. Being a bard main, this is a topic I really should be on top of.

Edit: I looked it up on bgwiki and it seems they stack multiplicitively, not additively, so it seems you're correct in this matter. Sorry for my mistake, though strictly speaking, BRD/NIN can still cap their haste completely solo.

[Demon6324236]

I have no idea what either of you two are even talking about, that entire conversation was about Attack, why are you talking about Attack Speed?

[Yinnyth]

Oh, it looks like I should apologize again, so I'm very sorry. I just re-read and it seems I skimmed too quickly. This was my mistake, so please ignore everything else I posted in this thread.

Edit: Though brd/war is still capable of some fierce attack if they have 99 gjallarhorn, 99 daurdabla, and ToM STR dagger >.>

[Demon6324236]

The entire point was RDM got nothing on this update to help it in its personal DD power really because Attack is impossible to cap and was before too, so the attack cap going up for 1-handed jobs did not really do something amazing for us. Don't let me interrupt your conversation, I was just saying it does not have anything to do with what was being said before.

[Doombringer]

back to being off topic, duel wield from a fully leveled ninja sub is 25% delay reduction, BUT since dual wield and haste are applied separately, as opposed to just being added together then applied, 40% duel wield and 40% haste does not get you to the 80% delay reduction cap.

lets say you have 1000 delay. you don't but it's an easy number to work with. 80% delay reduction would land you at 200 delay. yay, capped.

but lets start with that 1000 delay, and apply 40% dual wield. now we're at 600. now lets apply 40% haste to 600. that puts us at 360 delay. not capped.


i may not have that EXACTLY correct, but it works more like that. so if you're getting delay reduction from multiple different sources, you need more than 80% total to cap out.

[OmnysValefor]

I don't play the job, it's only 99 because it was 55 and a worm party needed a healer.

However, it's painful to never see RDMs anymore, outside of certain stale content. RDM doesn't bring anything to the table except Refresh2 now, and with so many ghorns, ballad2+3 + gear based auto refresh, + natural recovery methods (abilities, traits, gear like whm af3+2 pants) make it difficult to see many places where that's useful.
You want to keep players? Some of us only enjoy one job.

I built a decent (and decent only) black mage, and nice ninja, and beastmaster only so I could contribute to abyssea parties, and solo dynamis, so that I could build paladin. I decided that if paladins were still useless after adoulin, I'd just quit the game. I got the good fortune of finding use for paladin again now, but I can commiserate with what rdm's are feeling (and have felt, for as long as PLDs have felt it).

I have about 10 decent-great geared 99s, but all of the effort is so that I can play 1. I'm not saying that's the greatest model, but the promise of being able to play the job is enough, for the players that love the job, to keep grinding away.

Players had to accept facts, when you told us that you were approaching the limit of spells, but then here comes geo with an absurd number of unique spells. Others in the thread have suggested you could make it so that Geo- or Indi- was based on who the target was. You could also give a 5 second cooldown ability that turned Geo- spells into Indi- spells or vise-versa.

You could further alleviate the spell limit getting rid of duplicative barspells between rdm and whm, make both learn the same spell and give whm a trait at level 10, or level 1, that makes barspells aoe. In other words, naturally casting Barstone would give the barstonra effect when a whm or /whm was casting it.

[Luvbunny]

Actually SoA makes RDM feels new and fresh again. You should try and explore as Rdm, choose your best subs as you see fit, bring defense food, and your PDT gears + swords, stoneskin gears. Make a MND set gears, maxed out Requiscat, and those TP100 bonus swords, and MND sword, and have fun at it. It's fun to explore and see your job is not as bad as people make it out to be. And being able to survive when most other jobs succumb to some of the deadliest mobs in SoA. Aside from Blue, not many jobs can deal with 2-3 mobs at them, especially if one of the mobs is a caster who will cast those magic spells that can be deadly for those thieves, dancers, and ninjas. Umbril resist physical attack but will go down quickly with RDM. Other mobs also always stun you no matter what and somewhat evasive - gravity 2 actually has some uses lol.

[Demon6324236]

gravity 2 actually has some uses lol.That is something I have had to have up at all times to be able to hit well as RDM even with a Acc-TP build.

As for our job not being so bad, thats a matter of opinion, our melee is still terrible by compare to BLU, which we should be much closer to in at very least gear and a couple buffs for attack or accuracy would not hurt. When it comes to soloing we are amazing, but thats nothing new, when it comes to parties we fall apart and get no invites, thats the problem most people have with the job, or at least I do, because I have never seen people complaining RDM could not solo something.

[ManaKing]

You should give up the horse-y trousers and start wearing the battle-mage pants of excellence known as Rubeus Spats. I'm pretty sure you have them is the funny part. That's 18 Accuracy difference right there and since there is no level correction to F over anyone without an A in combat skill, you should hit easily so long as you are conscious of your gear selection. I do at least and I'm an Elvaan without DEX merits. Everyone else should have an easier time.

[Demon6324236]

The main changes in my set are...
Zelus Tiara --> Khthonios Mask
Kudzu Aketon --> Shedir Manteel
Calmecac Trousers --> Rubeus Spats

I still have a hard time landing hits sadly unless I have Grav2 on the mob at all times. : /

[Asymptotic]

back to being off topic, duel wield from a fully leveled ninja sub is actually 35% delay reduction, BUT since dual wield and haste are applied separately, as opposed to just being added together then applied, 40% duel wield and 40% haste does not get you to the 80% delay reduction cap.

lets say you have 1000 delay. you don't but it's an easy number to work with. 80% delay reduction would land you at 200 delay. yay, capped.

but lets start with that 1000 delay, and apply 40% dual wield. now we're at 600. now lets apply 40% haste to 600. that puts us at 360 delay. not capped.


i may not have that EXACTLY correct, but it works more like that. so if you're getting delay reduction from multiple different sources, you need more than 80% total to cap out.


DW from /NIN is 25%
from /DNC is 15%


35% is the base DW value for 85+ ninja

[ManaKing]

I don't even have the shedir and I don't have issues against new content. I doubt I have capped accuracy, but I don't think I'm far off by eyeballing it.

[Doombringer]

DW from /NIN is 25%
from /DNC is 15%


35% is the base DW value for 85+ ninja

embarrassing. i'm gonna go edit my post before anybody else notices <.<

[Crimsonwizard]

o.0 Doomy You moved to Bahamut??!?!?!?! Awww

[Doombringer]

yah, a while ago now.

worst part, there was apparently a doombringer on bahamut at some point, so i had to change names. i checked ffxiah beforehand too. sad times.