Enmity imbalance?

[Godofgods]

I heard they adjusted the enmity for damage dealt, but was this result intended?
I was in abyssea going for rani, after pulling him, attacking several round, and landing a large WS; then whm then took his first action of the fight and cast a single cure 5 on me. And that alone was enough to take hate. - After an accomplice and another ws, whm cast a cure on himself form the atk, which took hate again and got him killed.

And this has happened in other places, not just aby. Cures seem to take a massive amount of hate compared to damage dealt to a mob. Is this just an imbalance, or the new face of fighting?

[Dragoy]

I as well noticed pretty quickly that I have to be doing things to bad things more than before, or they'll do bad things more often or more readily to them healers.

At least they already mentioned that they are indeed looking into adjustments for at least Cure V.

However, I thought the damage dealers wouldn't be restricted as much either, and I don't really see that. The healers go past them very quickly, and this isn't exactly what I find a good direction to go for. This goes for cures other than Cure V, too. Even the little cures seem to go to the top on enmity pretty easily. :/

Overall it makes things less controllable, methinks.

[katiekat]

so does this mean duoing in abyssea is pretty much not posable atm?

[Dragoy]

katiekat,

Depends on how close to impossible you were before. ^^;

It is not an issue to me at all, that's not what I'm saying. It's just that I notice very easily that there was a change and that I definitely need to be doing more to keep the attention of a target (meaning you can't just hit them a few times, and/or weapon skill, then stop and wait for people to trigger weaknesses or whatever).

It hasn't been an issue at all to me yet while actually actively fighting a thing, but I haven't fought something like the Rani and friends after the change. I don't think it will be a real issue at all, especially since Cure V is going to see a change... probably.

I do, however, feel that there might be further adjustments to be made.

[Luvbunny]

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

[Jaall]

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

Sorry but the expansion is not one big fail, imo the only major issue at the moment is the lack of content because I really don't see much there as far as an expansion goes. All they have done is bring back strategy to a strategy MMO. Sorry it's not WoW but if that's the game you like then there are plenty of the same old MMO's out there. The defence update I actually haven't had much of a problem with because it only really effects mobs of much higher level. I still managed to take on the 6 gear train in silver sea remnants I, solo with 4 archaic gears links, meaning 10 at a time as thf/dnc. I had no issues whatsoever proving that defence hasn't effected anything pre 99.

The things it has effected are 99 events which have been scaled. The whole idea of the change was to bring back jobs that don't get chosen due to zerging everything and bring back strategy so goes completely against what you're saying, and yes you need a good setup, being a tank healer and 4 DD, same as it always was and always should be. You still have the events that can be zerged, take Qilin for example, I don't see people changing strategy on VW proving it works just fine.

The hate issues can be worked on and will be, the expansion is only a few days old, what do you expect? At least they have corrected a couple of their mistakes already. I'm basically counting this release as their beta which is kinda wrong but hey this is SE, it's to be expected! All I can see this expansion as doing is allowing people to play FFXI like they know and love from pre-abyssea while also keeping post abyssea content possible, with the exception of NNI, which strategy has been forcibly changed by SE.

[Oddwaffle]

At the moment, I'm taking 600-800 damage per hit from the hydra boss in salvage on Monk with Whm taking 300-400 damage per hit and pull hate very often. This doesn't count the fact that the boss can hit multiple times that can instantly kill pretty much anyone not a tank now. The damage taken is too much for 1 Whm to cure without getting massive amount of enmity. We often do salvage with only 3-4 people to keep it easier to get unlocks. I think with a low-man content, 3-4 people is about right.

We normally do it with 2 DD 1 healer or 1 extra thf. We could do it with 1 pld 1 thf 1 healer and 1 DD but that will slow us down a lot. The update seems to restrict people from doing things without a certain kind of party config as well as make content harder than it was.

[Jaall]

It makes content harder but that just brings it back to the level FFXI was for 7 years. Before Abyssea it was considered the hardest MMO for a reason, after that it kinda slipped up and just became another WoW. Now it looks like it's back on track in that respect and has something different from the rest. I personally very much miss that satisfaction when you got something that was very hard to obtain, like take CoP 6-4 for example, took a lot of people 30+ tries, at 45 mins per try where most would fail due to the time limit. If you add it all up that's a lot of time and the satisfaction you got when you beat it was incredible. There was no way around that but to have a PLD, and no way that amazing gear would significantly help, just a case of knowing what to do and when, where skill was actually involved. That's what this new update seems to be about and I'm happy for that. It's about time people got some skill, besides all you see everyday is people complaining how Abyssea is "easy mode" then you go complain that it's too hard to get gear. It's not too hard you just need to think about things before you go do them.

[Limecat]

Luckily, I found an instructional video that explains the new flow of combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sstCC7T0Do4

[Ravensbane]

Anyone playing BST solo in the new areas has probably died while trying to use Snarl and have hate return to them after 1 hit. I used a pet TP move followed by reward and was killed for using Spectral Jig and never hitting the mob myself. SE's attempts to "fix" things in the game almost always result in frustration and irritation. I think I will just take a break from anything involving the "fix" and wait for the repairs to be made. Which means I get to either craft or solo quests that do not require help. Time to get acquainted with the new areas and work on fame there.

[Xerius]

I've been having similar issues to the BST problem on SMN. Almost any action will result in the mob going off your pet and attacking you and when you only have 800~1k HP, this becomes a problem fast.

[Hawklaser]

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

[nyheen]

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

seems like SE is trying to bring back the old tanking ways. looks like enmity gear/abilities voke are making a come back. but it does need a bit fixing. but so far i like the way they trying to go with it

[Winrie]

I support anything that removes the easy mode bulls**t of abyssea and the mentality of players its created.

[Jaall]

Most of the threads on the forum at the moment are proof of the mentality Abyssea has created, some people want it so easy but I don't get where the fun is in having gear handed to you.

[Kincard]

I find the OP's situation a bit hard to believe. If my math is correct it takes about 1100 damage (after the reduction that occured this patch, before it it was more like 300) against a level 99 target to get the same amount of hate as a Cure V. Even if we assume that he lost a bit of hate from getting hit there's something weird going on if several hits and a big WS wasn't enough to keep hate from a Cure V.

Either this is some kind of bug or the OP is leaving something out of his story.

[Camiie]

I support anything that removes the easy mode bulls**t of abyssea and the mentality of players its created.

OK, sweet. I propose that all monster abilities instantly kill anyone they hit that isn't a PLD with an Aegis in one hand an an Ochain in the other. That'll show those Abynoobs how it's done! Thank you for your support!

[Godofgods]

I find the OP's situation a bit hard to believe. If my math is correct it takes about 1100 damage (after the reduction that occured this patch, before it it was more like 300) against a level 99 target to get the same amount of hate as a Cure V. Even if we assume that he lost a bit of hate from getting hit there's something weird going on if several hits and a big WS wasn't enough to keep hate from a Cure V.

Either this is some kind of bug or the OP is leaving something out of his story.

Im not leaving anything out of my story. Ive been duoing colonization reives a lot lately and the same thing is happening. 80%+ of the time a simple cure 3 will take hate off a DD. Much less a cure 5...

[Concerned4FFxi]

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

I felt the "improvement to enimty" was lazy. It wasn't a revamp, they just came up with the easiest way to "fix" the problem, and surprisingly it didn't work. That's what happens when you half ass things.

I objected to the 100% increase in damage taken, even under specific conditions it was totally stupid. Hopefully it will be reduced to 25-50% max.

I notice for whatever reason, now e.p. mobs and lower are landing enfeebling magic a bit more often.

Seems my CDC has gone down in damage? Now on this one I'm not sure, I just started using Phorcys Korazin and Wanion belt over twilight mail and the kuk boss belt from aby, and I am elvaan. So maybe I'm missing on one of my hits (i'll have to check my tp gain after I ws and run a few tests), but then again, this is on e.p mobs, I shouldn't be missing.

Cure enimity is totally busted, atm, dispite player based pleas for enmity adjustments for JA and curing to go with the adjustments to damage...

P.S.- on a side note, if your company just suffered a serve setback from releasing FFXIV too early, maybe releasing this add-on like previous add-ons isn't such a smart idea at this point in time, without the full content avialable it gives a extreme case of buyers remorse. Which, since 14 flopped, isn't the position you want to put your company in, but hey, I'm not JP so WTF could I know...

[Kincard]

Im not leaving anything out of my story. Ive been duoing colonization reives a lot lately and the same thing is happening. 80%+ of the time a simple cure 3 will take hate off a DD. Much less a cure 5...

The only time I've had cure 3 take hate off me is if someone decide to cast cure III on me as soon as I begin engaging an enemy and my HP was low from a previous enemy, in which case a provoke will instantly bring the target back towards me. What you're describing simply isn't possible unless someone is doing something horribly wrong (Doing bad damage, taking way more damage than they should be, etc) or there's a bug somewhere in the system, because both cures and damage enmity were adjusted to 30% of their original values. If there is anything that was broken by the update, it's that pet jobs are now almost impossible to play because any commands will generate significantly more enmity than the pet is generating through damage.

[Concerned4FFxi]

It makes content harder but that just brings it back to the level FFXI was for 7 years. Before Abyssea it was considered the hardest MMO for a reason, after that it kinda slipped up and just became another WoW. Now it looks like it's back on track in that respect and has something different from the rest. I personally very much miss that satisfaction when you got something that was very hard to obtain, like take CoP 6-4 for example, took a lot of people 30+ tries, at 45 mins per try where most would fail due to the time limit. If you add it all up that's a lot of time and the satisfaction you got when you beat it was incredible. There was no way around that but to have a PLD, and no way that amazing gear would significantly help, just a case of knowing what to do and when, where skill was actually involved. That's what this new update seems to be about and I'm happy for that. It's about time people got some skill, besides all you see everyday is people complaining how Abyssea is "easy mode" then you go complain that it's too hard to get gear. It's not too hard you just need to think about things before you go do them.

See, your on drg right? I'm on pld, and i use cdc. As a Paladin, without berserker up, I'm not even breaking 2k on e.p. mobs anymore. I just figured it out now, I thought it was because i adjusted my ws gear set, but its not. It's because as a Paladin, without berserker or food up, I'm sitting at around 500-600attack in my non tanking tp set. the attack nerf is going to kill anyone that's not a serious dd job, also, the defence nerf is killing anyone not a tank. the enmity from ja and cures is unbalanced greatly. I understand all this will be adjusted, but I don't feel the DEV have any plans to reduce the adjustments for attack and defence (i feel 100% increase was overkill, literally, 25-50-% incease is more balanced, they just trashed the game because they dont play and have no clue)

I'm no game designer, but if I add 100% more of an ingredient to any reciept that somewhat tasty before, I guaruntee it's coming out screwed up.

P.S. Where is this "balance" the DEV speak of? If there were balance, it wouldn't be increasing perimeters by 100%.

[Luvbunny]

P.S.- on a side note, if your company just suffered a serve setback from releasing FFXIV too early, maybe releasing this add-on like previous add-ons isn't such a smart idea at this point in time, without the full content avialable it gives a extreme case of buyers remorse. Which, since 14 flopped, isn't the position you want to put your company in, but hey, I'm not JP so WTF could I know...

Totally agree. At this point they should just postpone the launch till August when they have a proper EXPANSION somewhat done. Right now we are buying a beta testing opportunity for SoA, with 2 new jobs that is barely finished. The two new activities are just plain atrocious and worse than Campaign. I mean, I understand this kind of attitude if this is an expansion released in 2004, but this is nine years later, things have changed A LOT. It seems like like they are not that stupid, Abyssea proved that they are entirely capable to create a complete content that is well thought of. Even the stuffs added after Abyssea continue this trend, as much as random number generation ruin most of them. So now we are dealing with Rieve where your mages get screwed, you can't just go in and play, there is no way of knowing where these things are unless you play jobs xyz, and all these defense enmity adjustment just wreak havoc on the whole game.

There are a lot of good ideas on SoA, but most of them are not properly finished. It is very clear at this stage that this expansion is not ready for launch and missing a lot of things. They should have postpone this, they know they are not ready, seems like Summer 2013 would be a better date. For everyone else, don't bother getting it till summer or fall 2013. Unless you are on Xbox, in which case get this now at any cost, since waiting further may result you are paying for inflated prices at Ebay.

[Camiie]

It's a shame they don't have a test server where they can test changes before being implemented on the live worlds. Oh well, maybe one day!

[raps1355]

Yeah going to agree the hate has become extreme, thf hits the mobs 4 times and i cast dia 2 and pull hate just like that. Any form of healing and mob is bouncing between me and DD (cure 3s) even buffs like haste, protect etc are pulling massive hate. Needs serious revision or endgame will grind to a halt.

[Luvbunny]

It's a shame they don't have a test server where they can test changes before being implemented on the live worlds. Oh well, maybe one day!

I thought they do have a test server, for the PC people. It's forever on the logging screen right before you hit play. It is clearly they did not test all these new changes, and it is truly a shame indeed.

[Demon6324236]

I thought they do have a test server, for the PC people. It's forever on the logging screen right before you hit play. It is clearly they did not test all these new changes, and it is truly a shame indeed.Wooosh~...

[Kincard]

I am seriously wondering what in the hell you people are doing that is causing your cures to instantly take hate. Aside from the amount of damage to match a cure V being really low (about 1300 as previously stated), you have a lot of default enmity- from Tranquil Heart. Try capping your skills and stop facetanking everything with berserk up and maybe you won't stop leaking hate from every pore of your body.

[Luvbunny]

The hate adjustment is seriously messed up, for whm and beast and summoner, pretty much everything. You should try it. As beast master, you will loose hate by doing the simplest thing, even if you are not attacking the mob at all. Any thing you do will get hate - it's totally broken right now. And it is not fun running around finding the next tree root to kill, with an hour spawn rate, run around and round. This is better than abyssea? At least there you have proper mob to kill and actual NMs that gets you seal reward. Even voidwatch and meeble is better than this kill the stupid root over and over again....

[Demon6324236]

The hate adjustment is seriously messed up, for whm and beast and summoner, pretty much everything. You should try it. As beast master, you will loose hate by doing the simplest thing, even if you are not attacking the mob at all. Any thing you do will get hate - it's totally broken right now.On topic.

And it is not fun running around finding the next tree root to kill, with an hour spawn rate, run around and round. This is better than abyssea? At least there you have proper mob to kill and actual NMs that gets you seal reward. Even voidwatch and meeble is better than this kill the stupid root over and over again....Not on topic.

[detlef]

I do find hate to be tenuous for certain things you wouldn't necessarily expect. I can't really quantify it yet or give a better description then "my healer seems to be higher on the the hate list than expected." Not a fan of the enmity adjustment at the moment, but this is just the first iteration and I think things will be addressed.

[nyheen]

did some testing with bst/nin in rala waterways and man the enmity is a bit over the top. most of the time i was tanking more then my pet. i bet it gonna be a pain to deal with in dynamis

[Camiie]

Here's what happens on to me on BST. Send pet in to get in a hit or two. Heel. Mob starts hitting me. Working as intended?

[xiozen]

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

This is by far the best QFT regarding this topic and is practically in line with what the devs stated about the adjustments to the enmity system...

just to reiterate what was previously stated: having enmity+ gear will increase the likelihood of the "tank" maintaining hate... since the adjustment to the system as it currently stands (past level 50) significantly reduces the amount of enmity gained from fighting the mob face-to-face... in a nutshell (PLD will RULE the day) under these conditions... with proper enmity gaining equipment, if you have a Paladin and said PLD has enmity+ gear or gear which mitigates enmity decay while taking damage etc..., you won't have problems with enmity. Even having other jobs with enmity+ gear will help while also taking advantage of the abilities/spells that increase enmity (provoke, flash etc.)

I use PUP as my primary job and for now, haven't had many issues since I've only been using WHM automaton in adoulin areas, with proper set-up and positioning w/ regards to master and automaton, the enmity never becomes an issue...but I can, with certainty, see how this is a nightmare for other jobs... as such, this definitely needs to be re-worked/fixed/fine tuned.

[saevel]

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

Whatever anyone does DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY.

He has it all incredibly, stupidly wrong. It's like he glanced over a hate guide written in 2005.

"Enmity" is a number composed of two other numbers, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE), each has a cap of 10,000 and together form the enmity cap of 20,000. Different actions generate different amounts of CE / VE for example. +enmity on gear is just a flat +%. +5 enmity would be +5% to the value generated, -5 would be -5%.

Flash
180 CE
1280 VE

Provoke
1 CE
1800 VE

You can look up specific values at Kanican's LJ site. All the formulas were fleshed out and we now know exactly how enmity works, no guessing is needed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Now the primary difference between CE and VE is in how they degrade. VE will degrade at a set rate of 60 units per
second no matter what, taking damage will not reduce it. CE will only degrade when you take damage at the rate of


[ CE Loss ] = 1800 x [ Damage Taken ] / [ Target Max HP ]

Now out of all the sources for CE the #1 is damage by a long shot. Previously it was approximately 1 damage = 1 CE and 1 CE = 3 VE @99 (actual ratios are dependent on targets level). This means laying down a 2000 damage WS generated 2000 CE and 6000 VE making it pretty easy to cap hate with damage.

SE's "adjustment" was just a .3 multiplier to enmity generated from damage / cures. Note I just said cures, cures generate CE/VE like damage does with the exception of Cure V generating a static amount. Cure V is a 400 CE and 700 VE before -enmity gear.

Knowing all this it's pretty easy to calculate out how much enmity someone is generating and how much their losing from damage. That same 2000 WS now generates 600 CE and 1800 VE. A 200 damage melee hit will generate 60 CE and 180 VE. Damage will still beat other sources for enmity, it just takes some time to build up CE.

What's really hurting you guys is enmity loss from getting your face punched in. The "defense" adjustments weren't adjustments to the actual value of defense but to the monsters attack ratio cap. 500 defense means the same now as it did two weeks ago. 200 defense means substantially less now then it did two weeks ago, provided the monster has more then 400 attack. With Protect V most people aren't going to have to worry about "defense" issues, just don't go under 400 and your ok as very few monsters have attack over 700~750. This means berserk and LR are fine to just, just don't use both at once. Counter stance could now be a death sentence (not sure what the *new* defense calculations have it at) on anything with 600 or more attack. You absolutely most remove all defense down debuffs the monster put on you. Over the years SE went crazy with handing out AoE -50 ~ 90% defense down debuffs to everything they created. That can instantly double the damage you take. Finally some NM's are just going to suck period. SE designed certain NM's with Tp attacks that have insane attack boosts, Sutr's Heavy Strike and Pil's Flank Opening are prime examples. Unless your a BLU rocking 800+ defense those attacks are going to really hurt. I tried to warn SE to think this through but they didn't listen and even told me I was over thinking it.

Yeah we see the results now.

[Godofgods]

What you're describing simply isn't possible unless someone is doing something horribly wrong (Doing bad damage, taking way more damage than they should be, etc) or there's a bug somewhere in the system, because both cures and damage enmity were adjusted to 30% of their original values.

yea, your right, its a lie. Everyone got together and decided to commutatively complain about this because we had nothing better to do. And there is nothing else going on in this game that was worthy enough of or time... -_-

[Karah]

I've been noticing that basically anything cast by a mage is pulling enmity off anything else.

I'll engage, bully, SA > Mercy stroke > then cast regen, cure2/3 and the mage gets hate, it's a bit much.

Even 10-20 melee rounds generates lower enmity than auspice, or boost-str.

[saevel]

I've been noticing that basically anything cast by a mage is pulling enmity off anything else.

I'll engage, bully, SA > Mercy stroke > then cast regen, cure2/3 and the mage gets hate, it's a bit much.

Even 10-20 melee rounds generates lower enmity than auspice, or boost-str.

Not possible. We know the hate values for both of those, their incredibly small, a fly farting would generate more hate.

2 / 3 questions

#1 How much total damage are you doing within a 30 / 60 / 90s period. That makes a very big difference early on when you have no CE / VE built up. This is the only thing "hate tools" are good for, that initial spike.

#2 How much total damage is the NM doing to you within that same 30 / 60 / 90s period.

#3 What heals and for how much is your WHM curing for. Before a 400HP cure used to be 186 CE and 1116 VE before -enmity or tranqual heart. No that same 400HP cure would be 56 CE and 335 VE. 800HP Cure IV would now be 112CE and 670 VE. These are all slight approximations, but they should be good to within the second digit. Cure V is 400CE and 700 VE. People should notice that Cure IV is now more enmity efficient then Cure V.

To "tank" things you need an initial VE spike then a period where your building CE by spamming WS's. After you got a solid hold on CE you can open up a bit. Make a PDT / MDT set, it is a life saver by not only requiring less healing (and thus less enmity generation) from your healer but also reducing your hate bleed from big TP moves.

[noirin]

This hate update does seem to hurt anyone outside of tank jobs rather hard.As a Bst wandering Adoulin by myself,i absolutely cannot use Guttler while fighting things or my pet will never,ever pull hate on its own. Heck I have to stay in my pdt kit just to keep my pets around long enough to solo any mobs.Even then,turning and giving my pets some time to kill the mob [lets say,halfway or so] still results in my taking direct hate the moment i turn for a hit.
Waltzing anytime during that also is rather suicidal,as the mob instantly will hit me and undo my recovery.

That being said though, a few days ago when i was doing quests with a small team [me Bst,Pup and a Pld] then we had no issues at all coasting around and killing the occasional Velkk and NM for things. So while this adjustment is seriously hurting my Solo/Mage efforts, it did do the 1 thing SE clearly wanted-Made Tanks and heavy defense jobs more desirable to anyone partaking in the current content.

Sadly,they need to realize not all of us like to wander around as tanks.

[Karah]

Obviously, it was hyperbole, but not that far from accurate. I'm well aware of the values, and mechanics.

It's that the (umbrils in that post) take so little damage from melee, that ~2,000 damage wasn't enough to hold enmity over a single cast of auspice, or regen 4.

Obviously after being hit, as they have near perfect accuracy. (in a "standard" tp set)

Enmity needed adjusting, I just think they overshot it, by a little (lot).

[Hawklaser]

Whatever anyone does DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY.

He has it all incredibly, stupidly wrong. It's like he glanced over a hate guide written in 2005.

"Enmity" is a number composed of two other numbers, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE), each has a cap of 10,000 and together form the enmity cap of 20,000. Different actions generate different amounts of CE / VE for example. +enmity on gear is just a flat +%. +5 enmity would be +5% to the value generated, -5 would be -5%.

Flash
180 CE
1280 VE

Provoke
1 CE
1800 VE

You can look up specific values at Kanican's LJ site. All the formulas were fleshed out and we now know exactly how enmity works, no guessing is needed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Now the primary difference between CE and VE is in how they degrade. VE will degrade at a set rate of 60 units per
second no matter what, taking damage will not reduce it. CE will only degrade when you take damage at the rate of



Now out of all the sources for CE the #1 is damage by a long shot. Previously it was approximately 1 damage = 1 CE and 1 CE = 3 VE @99 (actual ratios are dependent on targets level). This means laying down a 2000 damage WS generated 2000 CE and 6000 VE making it pretty easy to cap hate with damage.

SE's "adjustment" was just a .3 multiplier to enmity generated from damage / cures. Note I just said cures, cures generate CE/VE like damage does with the exception of Cure V generating a static amount. Cure V is a 400 CE and 700 VE before -enmity gear.

Knowing all this it's pretty easy to calculate out how much enmity someone is generating and how much their losing from damage. That same 2000 WS now generates 600 CE and 1800 VE. A 200 damage melee hit will generate 60 CE and 180 VE. Damage will still beat other sources for enmity, it just takes some time to build up CE.

What's really hurting you guys is enmity loss from getting your face punched in. The "defense" adjustments weren't adjustments to the actual value of defense but to the monsters attack ratio cap. 500 defense means the same now as it did two weeks ago. 200 defense means substantially less now then it did two weeks ago, provided the monster has more then 400 attack. With Protect V most people aren't going to have to worry about "defense" issues, just don't go under 400 and your ok as very few monsters have attack over 700~750. This means berserk and LR are fine to just, just don't use both at once. Counter stance could now be a death sentence (not sure what the *new* defense calculations have it at) on anything with 600 or more attack. You absolutely most remove all defense down debuffs the monster put on you. Over the years SE went crazy with handing out AoE -50 ~ 90% defense down debuffs to everything they created. That can instantly double the damage you take. Finally some NM's are just going to suck period. SE designed certain NM's with Tp attacks that have insane attack boosts, Sutr's Heavy Strike and Pil's Flank Opening are prime examples. Unless your a BLU rocking 800+ defense those attacks are going to really hurt. I tried to warn SE to think this through but they didn't listen and even told me I was over thinking it.

Yeah we see the results now.

Sorry for getting the terms wrong, but the description still fits if you read what I posted instead of latching on to the wrong terminology. Also, I was not making a claim as to how the enmity system as a whole worked, but was trying to point out the fact that with the changes people will not be able to rely on damage alone to establish and maintain hate now, and would need to be using more hate tools such as provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles.

The only other part that could be affecting things being so wonky now, is not really something players can do much about. And that is if the hate decay for getting smacked is still working at 100% instead of at 30% like enmity generated from raw damage and healing numbers. Which would be making hate decay much faster than it is generated with out the use of non-damage/healing enmity generation tools.

[saevel]

Obviously, it was hyperbole, but not that far from accurate. I'm well aware of the values, and mechanics.

It's that the (umbrils in that post) take so little damage from melee, that ~2,000 damage wasn't enough to hold enmity over a single cast of auspice, or regen 4.

Obviously after being hit, as they have near perfect accuracy. (in a "standard" tp set)

Enmity needed adjusting, I just think they overshot it, by a little (lot).

2000 damage + the melee hits involved to get that TP should of been plenty, we're talking ~800 CE and another ~2400 VE.

The only part that is "broken" is they didn't adjust Cure V's CE/VE values to be in line with everything else, it's actually the worse heal by far to use for enmity now.

Not every job can "tank" something WHM + XXX like they used to unfortunately. Were you /DNC? Did you not build steps up for animated flourish? It'll provide the big early VE boost through it'll become useless after a min or two of fighting.

[Kincard]

yea, your right, its a lie. Everyone got together and decided to commutatively complain about this because we had nothing better to do. And there is nothing else going on in this game that was worthy enough of or time... -_-

What I'm saying isn't that what you're describing is impossible in the sense that it isn't occuring at all, but that there's a claim that you're playing reasonably and having problems with enmity. We know exactly how enmity works and the only reason cures outside of 5 and 6 are pulling hate is if you are playing completely recklessly. (Seriously, everything got reduced to 30% evenly, logically it would make 0 sense for you to be pulling hate more than you used to from doing cure 1-4) If you are full-timing berserk and counterstance and constantly taking thousand-damage hits that require curing back up, and you lose hate because of that, I think that's called "working properly". I have had 0 problems with hate outside of when I play completely recklessly and do nothing but facetank everything. This is exactly what they were trying to remove, and now people are complaining that taking massive damage and getting cured for it loses hate?

For the record, I do think they should adjust certain static-value enmity gains such as from buffs and status removal, etc, but people are talking about cures 1-4 which were reduced by the exact same value as damage, and complaints about something that is untrue from the basic facts of the game will just lead to them adjusting it so that the hate system is shallow again.

[Himrik]

It's funny because a lot of people complained about Abyssea being "too easy", where any job can facetank anything as long as a back-up WHM spammed Cure VI over and over.

Now, they chanded it, and people think it sucks. There are a lot of enmity generating actions that were just forgotten because they were useless post-75. People just need to remember how you can really tank.

And by the way, what would you do if you had to fight a party ? Won't you go straight for the healer to stop him for saving the others ? And when fighting a summoner and his pet, won't you agree that the best strategy is shooting the summoner first ?

Theses changes are good because not only do they make monsters act a lot "smarter", but also because it revives one archetype that was totally forgotten: Tanks.

[Babekeke]

Enmity is just fine now. Smashing stuff up in abyssea or in new zones, WHMs aren't pulling hate. People just have to rmember that now def plays a bigger role. Let's take THF for example, as this job has been tanking all throughout abyssea, yet it was rare to see them tanking before, due to not having any real way of holding hate:

/NIN: Utsusemi gives a decent amount of hate, and with shadows up you're not taking much damage, so not losing hate, however, you need to utilise your natural JAs to help you to get some hate initially, namely Feint, Conspirator (hit as many ppl as possible with it), bully (if you're tanking wait until you have TP to utilise sneak attack too) and finally, no not accomplice. Any THF using Accomplice to hold hate is an idiot. I'm sorry but you are. Use Collaborator FFS.

/DNC: As many steps as you can, for constant flourish spam. Violent flourish is faster than animated, and means you aren't taking damage while it's stunned, but idk how the emnity values vary between it and animated, other than that with 2 FMs, animated gives more enmity. I prefer Violent. Again then keep using your THF JAs as well. Unless your curing waltz III does more than half what your WS do, you're not tanking efficiently by curing yourself.

/WAR: Provoke FFS! I can't believe how many ppl /WAR that forget that they even have this JA. Other than that, if you're tanking, Berserk should only really be used either towards the end of the fight, or for 1 WS then cancel it. Defender if you get adds or need to super tank for a bit, just rmember that the mob you're hitting isn't getting as much enmity from you from damage now, so your mage might pull hate on that 1 mob. Remember Warcry pulls a lot of hate too if you can hit several people in your pt with it.

Gear/Food: Eva gear for THF is just about worth it, especially if /NIN. -PDT tends to be better though. I hate to mention the food as the price of it is rising exponentially already, but Rabbit Pie FTW.

If you can't manage to do all of the above, then disband your PT, go back to your mog house, swap to your full perle BST and use falcor, like I see half of the people in zone doing right now. They seem fairly happy doing it.

[Jaall]

Everyone complaining about it - consider what it was like in parties before without a tank and 5 dd, the healers would always have issues with hate. If you ask me the main issue you guys are having is that the mobs are hitting too hard for a Tough mob because, due to abyssea, you guys now think you can go out and easily take out every tough in your path duo. Most will be fine but when it comes to a couple, umbrils and rieve mobs etc, of course they're gonna hit like a brick cause that's what they were designed for. The only issue I have is in salvage, I got defence down from a fomor on floor 1 and was being hit a lot harder than before so had to get rid of it asap. Not sure if this was due to the update or gear choices but considering what they changed and the amount they were hitting for I'd say update.

[Zhronne]

Overall I really like the new enmity system but of course it's pretty clear there are a few things which they seriously underestimated. These things, sadly, make the whole thing pretty unenjoyable in the circumstances when they do occur.
They mentioned this was meant to be only the "first step" in the enmity adjustements, so I'm sure more tweaks will be coming very soon.

I'm more annoyed by the Att/Def caps change. I can understand its utility but I still wish they could have gone another way. As it stands now for the things I do in-game, I get hit harder by shitty mobs in old content, making things harder and less enjoyable for me.
Hope they will adjust it at least for mobs under level 90.

[Fermion]

I like the new enmity and atk/def changes.

First off, we've all been spoiled by Abyssea. Popping every offensive buff (with no drawbacks), eating offensive food, and totally ignoring any sort of defense makes for a stupidly easy game. As a SCH, my cure IV does 1k+ and the recast is only 4 seconds, cure III is 550-600ish (can't remember off the top of my head) with a 3 second recast. When enmity was a non issue, it was virtually impossible to die (due to non-consequential cure spammage), unless 1 shotted or doomed or something equally cheesy. These enmity changes will allow for enemy strategies other than simply 1-shotting us. I'm sure we can all agree that that's a good thing.

If you're in this thread complaining, ask yourself, are you really trying to adapt, or just upset because the game isn't so easy anymore? If enmity is an issue for you, maybe you should evaluate yourself instead of blaming the system first. Get better hybrid, pdt/mdt sets. Change your food choices. Look at your subjob strategy. Pay closer attention to enmity + / - on gear. ENFEEBLE the mobs (they actually matter again). Basically, if you're in a duo, riding berserk / hasso, eating RCB and not doing anything defensively on an unfeebled mob, you deserve to get your face smashed in. Which as people have been trying to say, is the reason your healers are having a hard time with enmity.

On a personal note, I've been a Tank, DD and a healer post update. I've been adapting to the changes, and I haven't seen any of these horrible "one cure III and hate" situations being described by some.

[Zhronne]

Fermion I agree people are spoiled, refusing to adapt to changes and just being too overwhiny about a change that in the long run will only do good to the game.

But at the same time it's also pretty clear that a couple of things have been underestimated by SE and are not really working as they thought they would have been.
But that's why they said more changes are coming, I guess.
I don't agree with people who are over-reacting and overall I like this new direction, but still we can't deny there are a couple of things which rightfully generate concerns.

[Fermion]

But at the same time it's also pretty clear that a couple of things have been underestimated by SE and are not really working as they thought they would have been.

I'm not saying the system is perfect as-is, but I like starting at this baseline much more than what we had before.

[Concerned4FFxi]

The problem I have with the attack/defence update is that it is extremly unbalanced in 2 aspects as I see it.

The first aspect being the 100% increase to damage taken/recived if the attack/defense is double the opponent's. I find anytime you adjust a formula by 100%, it's never good. 25-50% would be idle, increase the challenge to the game without murdering everyone and breaking all the paladin's stones when they can't deal any damage at all now.

Lastly, The unbalance the attack update plays against strength based weapon skill users/attack bonus weapon skill users like asuran fists compared to ANY other stat modifying ws. Example, my pld's cdc has been effected greatly, while drg, sam, war, drk are still hitting for the same damage. lets face it, I have no problem with pld being the weakest dd, but now I'm down there with the whm in damage output harder mobs.

[Jaall]

PLD has never ever been a DD and should never be considered a DD. It never did very good dmg and is nowhere near as bad as WHM even now. PLD is exclusively a tank job and always has been. I do agree that adjusting anything by 100% can be very bad though, and I do think SE should have spent more time working out a more complicated formula for hate rather than just adjusting it by a certain degree and "seeing how it goes". I don't think it's as bad as it could have been, it's mainly just people crying cause the games back to hard mode, which I personally find much more rewarding and entertaining.

[Damane]

At the moment, I'm taking 600-800 damage per hit from the hydra boss in salvage on Monk with Whm taking 300-400 damage per hit and pull hate very often. This doesn't count the fact that the boss can hit multiple times that can instantly kill pretty much anyone not a tank now. The damage taken is too much for 1 Whm to cure without getting massive amount of enmity. We often do salvage with only 3-4 people to keep it easier to get unlocks. I think with a low-man content, 3-4 people is about right.

We normally do it with 2 DD 1 healer or 1 extra thf. We could do it with 1 pld 1 thf 1 healer and 1 DD but that will slow us down a lot. The update seems to restrict people from doing things without a certain kind of party config as well as make content harder than it was.

stop useing counterstance and berserk in conjunction, they lower your def tremendously if used together. The defense/attack and enmity update are fine (just some fix to cure V and VI needed). People just need to learn how to properly use their JAs and Abilitys. You see Vokeing at the beginning of a Fight actually is usefull if you dont want your mage to get hate right away with slow/para/dia. Thats what those JAs were designed for. Everything is fine in my eyes, people just need to adjust to it for gods sake, instead of just SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH while being afk.

and for the record removeing those def. down debuffs a mob gives to you ACTUALLY helps you now and is needed.

[Infidi]

Maybe they'll give avatars a voke. :D

[saevel]

You guys really don't understand how attack / defense work do you.

I'll give an example.

Level 99 Monster vs Level 99 Player

Player Defense: 500 (Protect V makes his easily possible)
With Berserk, Defense: 375

Monsters rarely have over ~600 attack, they don't eat meat, they don't get bard buffs and their not using leet end game gear. NM's rarely have over 700~750 attack, Ig-Alima is a LV120 ultra NM and is very rare to encounter that.

Regular Monster ratio = 600/500 = 1.2 (2.0 is cap)
Big NM ratio = 700/500 = 1.4, 750/500 = 1.5

*Poof* "ZOMG DEFENSE ADJUSTMENTS!!!!0101" ratio cap is now 4.0 and is has absolutely ZERO effect on the above damage numbers. None of them go over 2.0.

Now lets use Berserk for -25% defense.

Regular Monster ratio 600/375 = 1.6 <no change>
Big Nm ratio 700/375 = 1.86 <no change> 750/375 = 2.0 <no change>

After the update there still is no change to our zerked DD going hog wild with Protect V on. I mean he's just spamming that WS there and building all sorts of enmity and not taking a dime of extra damage.

Now for what WILL cause you to take more damage. Lets introduce Mr Troll, he's ugly and smells bad. While fighting Mr. Troll he use's Enervation for an aoe -50% defense effect. Lets see what that does to us.

Melee without Zerg = 500 * 0.5 = 250 Defense
Melee with Zerg = 375 * 0.5 = 187 Defense or even 125 (off top of my head can't remember if their additive or multiplicative so gonna do both)

Regular Monster = 600/250 = 2.4 which is now a 20% increase over the 2.0 cap.
Regular Monster vs DD zerked = 600/187 = 3.2 for a 60% increase in damage, or 600/125 = 4.8 (capped 4.0) for a full 100% increase in damage.

Big NM = 700/250 = 2.8 for a 40% increase in damage.
Big NM vs DD zerked = 700/187 = 3.74 for an 87% increase and I don't think I need to go any further for people to see how badly our melee is getting the sh!t smacked out of him.

BTW those -defense moves completely ignore your job class, PLD gets hit just as hard as WAR, MNK, THF, DRK and the rest. The only thing that would save a PLD's a$$ isn't his defense, he can completely ignore that, it's his shield blocks that negate a percentage damage.

In fact -DT sets just because the most important thing in the game, they were required to be a good DD but now their mandatory. Defense is nearly useless, always has and always will be, primarily due to the monsters ability to just take it from you. Flat percentage reductions always are in effect and outside of encumbrance the monsters can't take them away.

I warned SE that this would happen if they went with a 4.0 multiplier. And now we see the results, good luck if your not a WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU / PLD.

[saevel]

Ok just logged in the check my defense on WAR/SAM.

Full DD set puts me at 400 base defense for 575 with Protect(r) V, 431 with Protect V and Berserk up.

That means on anything with less then 862 attack I will receive absolutely no additional from the update.

*Caveat*
This is all non-SOA stuff. I have no idea what stats the monsters inside there have. SE stated their not following normal monster templates so all bets are off.

[Zhronne]

YPlayer Defense: 500 (Protect V makes his easily possible)
Keep in mind that you don't always get Protect V when you're lowmanning or soloing content, especially old lv75 content.
This change wanted to address mainly the end-game part of the game and I'm allright with that, but it ended up playing a difference bigger than intended even in older content, and I'm not really sure this las part is a good thing.

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.
Not really sure they really wanted this to happen, I still feel like they just slightly underestimated the consequences of such a huge change, while being focused a bit too much on end-game content.


Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

[saevel]

Keep in mind that you don't always get Protect V when you're lowmanning or soloing content, especially old lv75 content.
This change wanted to address mainly the end-game part of the game and I'm allright with that, but it ended up playing a difference bigger than intended even in older content, and I'm not really sure this las part is a good thing.

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.
Not really sure they really wanted this to happen, I still feel like they just slightly underestimated the consequences of such a huge change, while being focused a bit too much on end-game content.


Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

This change was directed at DRK/WAR using LR and Berserk together to get enough attack to overcome their pet neo-AV's defense. They didn't take into account the sheer level of -defense moves they equipped all their failed AV attempts with.

Also on "75 content" you should have absolutely zero worried. Level 80-82 mobs rarely have more then 350 attack, 400 tops. And NM's back then didn't have stats much larger then regular mobs, they just wielded bigger swords (base D value). Old content should pose absolutely no problems to anyone.

The damage spikes your seeing are from TP moves with +attack bonus's. As BLU's can tell, many moves have innate attack bonus's and the mobs always get bigger / better versions then we do.

The defense adjustment is overkill pure and simple. They need to reduce the cap to 3.0 or dramatically reduce the effects of -defense ailments. Any formor now has the ability to hit the 4.0 cap on any player due to Aegis Schism's -90% reduction. And they weren't the only ones to get that.

As for Protect V, there are four jobs that have it (WHM, SCH, RDM, PLD), those jobs also happen to be good at keeping you alive. The only time you wouldn't have that is if your out soloing something and honestly I couldn't care less about that.

[Zhronne]

Also on "75 content" you should have absolutely zero worried. Level 80-82 mobs rarely have more then 350 attack, 400 tops. And NM's back then didn't have stats much larger then regular mobs, they just wielded bigger swords (base D value). Old content should pose absolutely no problems to anyone.
Dunno, those 900+ Fluid Toss and 450+ Crits on floor 1 of Apollyon SE kinda made me go WTF.
But I still haven't experienced enough content to point my finger clearly in some direction.

I'm a bit worried about Dynamis on BST, that my pet will take way more damage than it did before, forcing me to get more Pet PDT gear (tbh I hardly had a lot to begin with) or use way more food for Reward.
Still haven't dared to try Dynamis yet, but heard silly things about Statues and DC mobs hitting for ridiculous amounts.



I couldn't care less about that.
I respect that and I would go kinda mad at SE if they dared to put their main focus on solo content, would be a waste of resources.
But at the same time I think the "I couldn't care less" approach is not positive either.
Why not care for both? Not like it would cost them god knows how much time/money to "fix" that.
I guess the next months (and subsequent patches/fixes) will show us where things go.
But personally I do care about this small part of the game and it would make me a bit sad to see it "ruined" for the righteous (not being sarcastic here) greater good of fixing the rest of the game.

Not saying they shouldn't have fixed it at all, it clearly needed a fix. Just saying that *MAYBE* they could have found a way to fix that without ruining that small part of the game that you seem not to care at all about (which is a respectable stance) but at the same time I'm sure other users like me do care for instead.

[Himrik]

*Poof* "ZOMG DEFENSE ADJUSTMENTS!!!!0101" ratio cap is now 4.0 and is has absolutely ZERO effect on the above damage numbers. None of them go over 2.0.

I'm sorry but I don't see any proof for the adjustment you describe. They only said that "attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment".

Nothing on increasing the cap, or simply using (atk/def)², etc..., only that the level of the monster is much more important now.

[Oddwaffle]

stop useing counterstance and berserk in conjunction, they lower your def tremendously if used together. The defense/attack and enmity update are fine (just some fix to cure V and VI needed). People just need to learn how to properly use their JAs and Abilitys. You see Vokeing at the beginning of a Fight actually is usefull if you dont want your mage to get hate right away with slow/para/dia. Thats what those JAs were designed for. Everything is fine in my eyes, people just need to adjust to it for gods sake, instead of just SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH while being afk.

and for the record removeing those def. down debuffs a mob gives to you ACTUALLY helps you now and is needed.


Err.. no that is wrong. I still take similar damage without berserk by using counterstance. Unless you really really want SE to remove counterstance and put it with Footwork (rarely used and completely useless).

Also, Provoke wasn't use to grab hate at start of battle for paralyze/slow...etc. I have been playing since 2003 (before xbox) and it was used to keep hate from cures. Also, if you sub /Sam you can't use provoke. Forcing provoke as a requirement reduces flexibility and choices from players, encourages cookie cutters parties and increase alienation of jobs that aren't in the cookie cutter setup (bst, pup and smn was very marginal back then).

A lot of people seems to want to go back to the good-old-days. I remember those days! 6 hours waiting for a 1 Pld to seek so people could make a party. It was horrible. The harder the content becomes the more cookie cutter settings will be used. At the rate it's going. You will need a specific setup for most events. You'll need a Pld and a Whm for core and supports/DD. Without that setup, you'll have to wait or beg or just go fishing. Just like the horrible old days.

The direction will also make 3-man events difficult. There is a reason SE made certain events 3-man. It takes too much time looking for 5 other people. People wanted to log on, spend 15min of preparations and do what they want. If you make it so people have to get enough people for events (Voidwatch, Meebles, NNI) then you're looking at 15m-2hours of doing nothing but waiting for members to join. People with little time to play (less than 3hours a day) are forced into static PT.

[Bahamut]

If you had been following the forum for the last month, the producer had said along with the emmity increase, they would be adding x 2 more damage increase to players then before, so basiclly everyone will have to relly on true tanks again for content level 51+.

I think they feel realistically that your pet is a one time shot at killing something and should not provide unlimited tanking/solo'ing on mobs above the strength of your pet.

Sorry this happend, but it was comming sooner or later.

Might want to run to the Auction house and stack up on complete VIT gear, there was something about VIT affecting it greatly.

[Himrik]

Forcing provoke as a requirement reduces flexibility and choices from players, encourages cookie cutters parties and increase alienation of jobs that aren't in the cookie cutter setup (bst, pup and smn was very marginal back then).

If you refuse to use a subjob designed to tank and your main job isn't a tank...well... you can't tank.
I don't see anything wrong here.

And by the way, Provoke always gives the same enmity boost, so it can be used at the beginning AND every 30 seconds after.

[Sarick]

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.

Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

I'm seeing a lot of this. Listen, everyone. If these changes stay in place a few people might still stay but the others who've been going on easy street won't be able to enjoy the game anymore. THis in tern will cause them to LEAVE. Them leaving will make the game go downhill more.

Do you all want the game to be shutdown? That's what'll happen if people decide it's not FUN anymore. If people are forced back into hard mode they can't solo, low man or duo with second accounts. It's like this if people aren't happy they quit paying for the subscription. Any smart person knows these thing.

"If you make a babies milk sour it'll stop sucking the milk. In this case SE is selling the milk."

What I'm saying is the amount of subscribers may start to RAPIDLY drop if things aren't done soon. You can sit back and say "I like the new system it's okay" but, ultimately it may just make other people loath the game enough to stop playing or eventuality quit.

I'm not whining here about how bad the system is. I'm pointing out that people are fickle. When the game is thrown into hard core mode not everyone is going to take it well. It's no longer your ideals of a perfect game that matter to them when they pay to play. Players will either adapt or abandon these worlds beause of the developers choices.

Simply put, If it's not enjoyable they have their own wills to choose whats right for their person. This isn't your choice what they like or don't like and there's nothing you can do about it. This however, will impact you far more then you think if the reaction is to quit. So, Is holding stern to our own needs/wants worth it if our companions all leave for greener pastures?

If my gut feeling is right and it usually is. It's changes like these that can cause a rapid exodus of the subscription base. No, This isn't an "I'm QUITTING" ramble. It's a gut feeling I'm having that a lot of players won't take these changes well. You see, I've not been playing much and these changes don't give me any enthusiasm. After seeing all the negative sentiment I've come a harsh reality that the game is not going to be a happy place. It's my gut feeling it'll continue to collapse.

I'm heartbroken because of this news. I assume others feel the same but they haven't said anything. If others feel the same as me they may be already considering alternative entertainment routes. In this case it doesn't look good, it doesn't sound fun and It makes us think if we should invest our time elsewhere.

Something is very wrong with the changes of a large number of subscribers are upset. I'm on the fence right now waiting to see how well the player base handles the changes. If they don't take it well the amount of subscribers will fall rapidly. We shall see if making things "Hard Mode" keeps players coming back or makes them abandon this realm.

[Zhronne]

IF a lot of people, A LOT of people, were to leave this game in the end it would be way less enjoyable for all of us, altough they could still do another server merge blahblah, but I concur it's not a good thing to happen.

"IF". Because I get the feeling the great majority of people just claim they're gonna leave when something they don't like happens, but then either they keep playing or they come back shortly after.
So really, what are we talking of?


People (myself included) usually look reluctantly at changes and are unable to tell wether it's a better or worse situation. They just don't want to change the things they've been doing in a certain way, their habits.
It's a natural aspect of human beings.
Time will tell wether:
1) something was really wrong and SE will adjust things here and there
2) people will really keep whining or maybe they will slowly adapt to this new style and find that, maybe, things might be even better than before
3) things will stay like this and people will stop paying and game will die, end of the world, blahblah


Give it time, it's not even been a week yet, let us not make haste to draw up conclusions too fast.

[Luvbunny]

Most of the super casual players won't leave right away since Abyssea apparently is still not dead yet, if ever going to die anytime soon. Between Voidwatch and Meeble (assuming they do it - since it requires a bit more coordination), and all the neo stuffs and dynamos - magian trial weapons, there are still tons of great content for solo-duo-dual boxing. But they will start their exodus soon once they see the game is going to the forced grouping activities and no longer fun log and play. So far SoA is somewhat of a letdown, great little ideas on some things, but bad implementation on the bigger things. The old ways are not great, a lot of you probably won't want to go back to the old ways, as much as many still have rose tinted glass memories of how great it used to be. Yes I agree with the sour milk analogy, you don't do big changes, you do small little changes gradually to ease up the transition. But perhaps it is their plan all along, a certain new game is around the corner, it bears the moniker of FF:ARR - maybe they want to move all the casuals there. It's a bit too early to say SoA is a failure, I am sure they will do tons of little updates within the next month or two. They should realize this by now, all those dual triple quadruple boxers are bringing nice extra income, why mess up success formula. The hardcore are fickle, they consume the content in a very rapid pace then complaint it is too easy. They are better off catering to the casual corners who digest content very slow and too busy chatting and socializing.

[Sarick]

Give it time, it's not even been a week yet, let us not make haste to draw up conclusions too fast.

Give it time you say? Game changes are like first impressions do them wrong the first time and people may never look back. The faster they revert they better off they are at recovery. I think they severely broke the game. IMHO, They should to revert so they can reevaluate balance first. Much like the way an army falls back to regroup. I think the developers need to take a step back so they can pull things together before moving forward.

To me everything appears to be all out of whack. The game is totally unplayable for some people/jobs. This is a mass subscription service. Everyone who is serious about this game should reflect on the words in the two sentences below.

People pay for this game because they want to enjoyment out of it. If they can't enjoy it why would they want to pay for it?

Right now I think the only course is to revert so more testing can be done. Every second things are broken one more person who's playing thinks "Why am I paying for this?". If they're even remotely thinking these things it's not good at all. These changes could've avoided all this negative reaction if they where properly tested.

[Luvbunny]

Right now everything appears to be all out of whack. The game is totally unplayable for some people/jobs. People pay because they want to enjoy the game. If they can't enjoy it why would they want to pay? Every second things are broken one more person who's playing thinks "Why am I paying for this?". If they're even remotely thinking these things it's not good at all. These changes could've avoided all this negative reaction if they where properly tested.

It amazes me that they still do not understand that it takes a great deal to fix negative feeling than to reinforce positive feeling. Bad experience news spread faster than a good one. And judging from several threads in this forum, SoA is a bit lackluster, yes it is barely a week old, let's not be too harsh. But first impression is everything, and it is a lot tougher to recover from a bad first impression, at least they are listening (it seems like) - and hopefully more swift updates will happen to rectify these out of whack game mechanic. Your gut feeling is probably right though, if they are not reverting back - a lot of people may quit within the next few months, too late to regain them back. Though as we all know, they always come back, most of them do :)

[Sarick]

Most of the super casual players won't leave right away since Abyssea apparently is still not dead yet, if ever going to die anytime soon.

~they will start their exodus soon once they see the game is going to the forced grouping activities and no longer fun log and play. So far SoA is somewhat of a letdown, great little ideas on some things, but bad implementation on the bigger things. The old ways are not great, a lot of you probably won't want to go back to the old ways, as much as many still have rose tinted glass memories of how great it used to be.

Yes I agree with the sour milk analogy, you don't do big changes, you do small little changes gradually to ease up the transition. But perhaps it is their plan all along, a certain new game is around the corner, it bears the moniker of FF:ARR - maybe they want to move all the casuals there.

It's a bit too early to say SoA is a failure, I am sure they will do tons of little updates within the next month or two. They should realize this by now, all those dual triple quadruple boxers are bringing nice extra income, why mess up success formula. The hardcore are fickle, they consume the content in a very rapid pace then complaint it is too easy. They are better off catering to the casual corners who digest content very slow and too busy chatting and socializing.

Forgive me for cutting up editing parts of your quote. I agree with what you're saying and just had to quote you. I couldn't bare the WALL-O-TEXT format you made.

Unfortunately, we won't know until it's too late. Everyone doesn't come here to post "I'm quitting" they just quit. With that in mind it's like a cancer that eats at the body until it becomes terminal and can't be fixed. You won't initially notice the damage until after the symptoms start showing up full force. Once that happens it's to late. This is the severe consequences for our lack of awareness.

Like I said these changes don't make me happy. They've made me step back to evaluate my future. I'm sure others reading this are thinking the same. We can't be fooled by blind faith. Look around. We need to ask others what they think before making the ultimate choices. If the majority doesn't like the direction these changes went then the developers need to adjust them fast. As with cancer if you don't catch it in time it'll kill you in a horrible way.

[Jaall]

SoA is a bit lackluster, yes it is barely a week old, let's not be too harsh.

Bit rich coming from you...

[Luvbunny]

Bit rich coming from you...

A bitch quote coming from you...

[Kokorololi]

I'm sorry but I don't see any proof for the adjustment you describe. They only said that "attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment".

Nothing on increasing the cap, or simply using (atk/def)², etc..., only that the level of the monster is much more important now.

It's explained right here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31310). Note that I'm pretty sure "the player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him" is used to describe a scenario in which the monster has a massive amount of Attack more than the player's Defense.


The attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment.
When a player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him, there will now be times when he will take much more damage than before.

In the event that:
Attacker's DMG: 100
Attacker's attack power: 1000
Defender's DEF: 250

Amount of damage taken pre-adjustment: 200
Amount of damage taken post-adjustment: 400
* Simplified conditions have been used for the sake of explanation.

Pre-adjustment: It only did 200 damage because the cap was 2.
Post-adjustment: It now does 400 damage because the cap is 4.

[Sarick]

Pre-adjustment: It only did 200 damage because the cap was 2.
Post-adjustment: It now does 400 damage because the cap is 4.

I wonder what would happen if they removed those caps entirely? Imho, it would show just how drastically broken the defense system is. Look at it like this if you play other games when an player vs enemy is severely mismatched you it'll show it with the weaker on getting one shotted for 999999 damage. Then again 999999 is still a CAP.

This is how I feel the defense changes have changed the game. They may still be caped but with enmity being broken and the new damage capacity it's suicidal to fight some enemies solo or as a multi-box player.

On a side note: Right now You can harrass someone soloing really bad if they don't use block aid. Simply give them a big cure 4 then and run off. The mob will chase you down as they scramble to get back hate.

How is this fun? Maybe teasing people is more fun then getting teased by the changes. See, I couldn't help myself. J/K

[Luvbunny]

On a side note: Right now You can harrass someone soloing really bad if they don't use block aid. Simply give them a big cure 4 then and run off. The mob will chase you down as they scramble to get back hate. How is this fun? Maybe teasing people is more fun then getting teased by the changes. See, I couldn't help myself. J/K

Yes this happened to me as RDM trying to help a poor BST getting whacked by those nasty Umbril. Just one cure 4 is enough to send the mob to me. And I was not even in the party, just doing a drive by Protect + Shell and Cure 4 to the poor fellow. Hopefully they will fix it today since it is seriously whacked and render the game unplayable for most pet jobs and mages - I am sure melee would welcome a fix to the defense change as well.

[Kokorololi]

What are you planning to solo? Ig-Alima?

For most content pre-existing content, the Attack/Defense changes changed very little. saevel already explained why.

The enmity changes do have an effect on solo/lowman. BST, SMN, DRG, and PUP are the jobs that are effected by solo. All I can say is learn to adapt. Enmity+/- still exists. Provoke and similar abilities are relatively (compared to damage) better than they used to be. Use them.

[Himrik]

It's explained right here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31310). Note that I'm pretty sure "the player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him" is used to describe a scenario in which the monster has a massive amount of Attack more than the player's Defense.

No, it's not.
Since a lot of parameters are used in the damage formula, and level difference is one of them, doubling the damage does not equal doubling the cap.

And doubling the cap should work for us too, but it doesn't seem to work that way since no ones clearly saw an increase in our damage output. And in the formula, the level difference ALWAYS benefits the monster.

[Sarick]

I'm no game designer, but if I add 100% more of an ingredient to any reciept that somewhat tasty before, I guaruntee it's coming out screwed up.

P.S. Where is this "balance" the DEV speak of? If there were balance, it wouldn't be increasing perimeters by 100%.

This depends on the ingredient. If it's sugar it might improve the sweetness its something like salt it could make you puke. I put powdered auger in my chicken spice to make things stick together and have a better flavor to counteract the spices. What i see is SE made a large chocolate + chocolate frosted cake and they mixed up 2 teaspoons of baking powder with 2 tablespoons!

The end result is a delicious looking cake that makes you GAG in agony after the first bite. This actually happened in real life. Even gave away the cake as pranks to unsuspecting douche bags. Looks can be deceiving. The programmers all put stuff on paper in their formulas. These don't always turn out as they wished.

[Kokorololi]

No, it's not.
Since a lot of parameters are used in the damage formula, and level difference is one of them, doubling the damage does not equal doubling the cap.

And doubling the cap should work for us too, but it doesn't seem to work that way since no ones clearly saw an increase in our damage output. And in the formula, the level difference ALWAYS benefits the monster.

So I suppose they just used those Attack/Defense values for no reason then?

[Himrik]

Maybe you're right.
I just looked at the french forum and the level difference is not even mentionned, so maybe the only change is the range of the ratio. A simple case of blurry translation :p

Now, I wonder if the formula is changed only for monsters or for us, too. It would be pretty neat if the damage output skyrocket for those DD with great attack buffs.

By the way, there is another translation problem. The english forum mentions "an enmity reduction by approximately thirty percent" whereas the french one translates an "enmity reduction to 30% of what is was before", so, basically, 70% drop in enmity gain.

[Kokorololi]

Yeah, I was confused about that, too. Based on values I've been seeing people use, I think the reduction is "to 30%". -70% enmity for damage/cures. Which is why we're seeing it have a pretty big effect on pet job solos and lowman. People are taking so much damage relative to the damage they're dealing that their net enmity is generally 0.

[Godofgods]

I actually like the idea behind the enmity adjustments. Moves us toward needing real tanks and strategy again. (might sux for those spamming low man emp weapons tho.) I just don't think after a couple ws, that a simple cure should be enough to take hate. It needs to be evened out in regards to the other adjustments.

[Himrik]

Basically, if I had to fight an entire PT, I'd kill the healer first, regardless off anything the other people do. :p
So, it kinda make sense.

The only way to really protect a healer should be to prevent the monster from reaching him, via collision. Enmity generating abilities are the substitute since it's much simpler to implement. :p

[Babekeke]

Maybe you're right.
I just looked at the french forum and the level difference is not even mentionned, so maybe the only change is the range of the ratio. A simple case of blurry translation :p

Now, I wonder if the formula is changed only for monsters or for us, too. It would be pretty neat if the damage output skyrocket for those DD with great attack buffs.

By the way, there is another translation problem. The english forum mentions "an enmity reduction by approximately thirty percent" whereas the french one translates an "enmity reduction to 30% of what is was before", so, basically, 70% drop in enmity gain.

In Adoulin, there is no LCF. Outside Adoulin, there is no longer a LCF for a monster's att to player's def. And that is the only cap that changed outside adoulin. Players cannot get a 4 x cap, but 1-hand and H2H caps went up to 2.25 the same as 2H.

[Damane]

Err.. no that is wrong. I still take similar damage without berserk by using counterstance. Unless you really really want SE to remove counterstance and put it with Footwork (rarely used and completely useless).

Also, Provoke wasn't use to grab hate at start of battle for paralyze/slow...etc. I have been playing since 2003 (before xbox) and it was used to keep hate from cures. Also, if you sub /Sam you can't use provoke. Forcing provoke as a requirement reduces flexibility and choices from players, encourages cookie cutters parties and increase alienation of jobs that aren't in the cookie cutter setup (bst, pup and smn was very marginal back then).

A lot of people seems to want to go back to the good-old-days. I remember those days! 6 hours waiting for a 1 Pld to seek so people could make a party. It was horrible. The harder the content becomes the more cookie cutter settings will be used. At the rate it's going. You will need a specific setup for most events. You'll need a Pld and a Whm for core and supports/DD. Without that setup, you'll have to wait or beg or just go fishing. Just like the horrible old days.

The direction will also make 3-man events difficult. There is a reason SE made certain events 3-man. It takes too much time looking for 5 other people. People wanted to log on, spend 15min of preparations and do what they want. If you make it so people have to get enough people for events (Voidwatch, Meebles, NNI) then you're looking at 15m-2hours of doing nothing but waiting for members to join. People with little time to play (less than 3hours a day) are forced into static PT.

The enmity and defense/attack adjustments are good. By makeing the Support Job choices again relevant for different tasks I would say they are good then. If you want to hold hate Sub or Main a job that lets you keep hate. That is the whole point of the Subjob system. If you cant be arsed to use /war to keep hate on you, then by all means let your whm mule be beaten up to crap until it dies. The adjustments are fine and actually finally brought again some strategy and thinking into fighting.

By all mean I dont want to go back to the old days, and we arent there at all. You can still tank as a melee, you just need to adjust yoru playstyle and actually put some thought behind your support job choice and what abilitys you are gonna use in a fight. Its simple as that. The same goes for mages now too. -Enmity/+Enmity actually matters now.

[saevel]

In Adoulin, there is no LCF. Outside Adoulin, there is no longer a LCF for a monster's att to player's def. And that is the only cap that changed outside adoulin. Players cannot get a 4 x cap, but 1-hand and H2H caps went up to 2.25 the same as 2H.


That is wrong, further back in this thread I asked SE point blank about that and they replied in a very horrible way. LCF from the monster to you is indeed in effect, Ig-Alima still gets a crushing bonus to hit you. They made one small concession in that they reduced the LCF by 1. A level 100 monster will hit you like a level 99 monster used to, a level 101 monster will hit you like a level 100 did, so on and so forth. That is a stupidly small adjustment, so small as to be nearly unnoticeable.

Yes SE just screwed lots of people, the one set of people they didn't screw where the heavy DD's. A good DD will have a PDT/MDT set which will shield them from most of this update. They will have to really pay attention to the debuffs their getting, if you see a defense down one you have to immediately hit the "don't die" macro and wait for it to be removed.

Also guys, do not use Cure V if you can help it. The enmity reduction was applied to the enmity from the cure formula, Cure V does not derive it's enmity from that and instead has a set enmity value. Like the other set enmity value items (Provoke / Flash / Blind / Bind / Dispel) it's enmity was not changed. In relationship to the other cure's, Cure V is now the WHM version of provoke. Seriously it has more then double the CE of Cure IV while still having higher VE then Cure IV.

[Perdition]

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

I have to disagree with this statement. If there is a serious issue, I sure that SE will address it, just on their time, not ours.
You are in a way saying that the new FFXI is the old FFXI, I am sure that is not what SE is going for. I can understand issues with hate being at play, but perhaps the enmity issue and damage adjustment is telling us that SE wants us to utilize traditional tanking practices. Since they are introducing a new tanking class in RUN, I could imagine these changes were made to make the new job relevant and not totally useless. I can imagine that if the issue persist, they will tweak it, but I doubt they will scrap it all together.

[Luvbunny]

I have to disagree with this statement. If there is a serious issue, I sure that SE will address it, just on their time, not ours.
You are in a way saying that the new FFXI is the old FFXI, I am sure that is not what SE is going for. I can understand issues with hate being at play, but perhaps the enmity issue and damage adjustment is telling us that SE wants us to utilize traditional tanking practices. Since they are introducing a new tanking class in RUN, I could imagine these changes were made to make the new job relevant and not totally useless. I can imagine that if the issue persist, they will tweak it, but I doubt they will scrap it all together.

The new FFXI is not the old FFXI pre-abyssea. Mages did not draw hate just by casting cures and enhancing magic. Summoner and Beast do not draw hate by doing absolutely nothing or using JA - especially Bst, Snarl should get the hate back to the pet. Right now the game is broken and somewhat unplayable for pet jobs and mages. When your PLD cannot get the hate back off the WHM whose job is to keep the PLD alive, IT IS BROKEN and it should be fixed.

Right now in Japan forums there are a few vague response. And they wont fix this for months!! Read: MONTHS. So yeah, you can "adjust" - maybe stop playing and just craft for months or solo (which somewhat negates the purpose of playing, since you can't solo as pet jobs, and melee was somewhat hit hard with the new defense craptacular adjustment).

There are many reports on how broken dynamis is for melee jobs now. THF, DNC and NIN suddenly become so squishy and evasion matters not. Lower lvl monsters dealing more damage than intended and raping tons of melee jobs. If they are trying to bring back "FORCED GROUPING" again, then you can either rejoice, or cancel your accounts (for those who are hit the hardest and going nerd rage).

[Sarick]

Basically, if I had to fight an entire PT, I'd kill the healer first, regardless off anything the other people do. :p
So, it kinda make sense.

The only way to really protect a healer should be to prevent the monster from reaching him, via collision. Enmity generating abilities are the substitute since it's much simpler to implement. :p

THIS IS WHY. Tanks should've been given better means of tanking outside the enmity system instead of them screwing things up. Enimity never should've been the only output for tanks to protect allies. To create a job a defensive tank job that lacks ally protective abilities is comparable to creating a damage dealer that fights with toothpicks! Really, those toothpicks better have deathly effect or they aren't worth using.

WAR
Trait Intervene
Basically, when an enemy it's facing direct attacks other party members with defender up the warrior will auto intervene (using their attack accuracy). If this attack hits it causes a reduced damage attack tothe target or that interrupts the enemies attack completely. This trait only becomes active if defender is up so the warrior can't be a full damage dealer while in tank mode.

Cost for success the warrior takes HP damage instead of the target but at a reduced rate. If the intervene fails to interrupt (because the warrior missed) the enemies attack hits its target at full damage while the warrior also takes a fixed small percentage of damage from failing to cancel the enemies attack.

This would need to be balened..

PLD
Change Cover so it is a 1 min recast that last 1 min. The effect is based on the shield/parry skills. Effect: It automatically attempts to cover anyone near them at a fixed rate. It should be very effective at protecting others.

NIN
Job Ability: Shadow Embrace
Duration: 5 min (can be canceled)
Recast: 1 min
When casting utsumi shadows are sometimes automatically given to close ally's near them at the cost of extra tools. If the ninja cast a 4 shadow utsumi a nearby ally who doesn't have shadows may also get 4 shadows. This would be very effective at protecting others.

These unique creative ideas are what would've made tanks more useful. What was done in the last update to put tanks back into play was more of a way to punish the players so we where forced to use real full tanks. This isn't a good way to make the game better dispute the need to make tanks useful. The best way to make them better is by creating positive reinforcements for utilizing them as tanks.

This negative nerf shit is disgusting. It breaks the game in ways that make people hate playing. It also breaks the will of the players.

Why should they continue subscribing if the game isn't fun anymore? If people are pleased then they they'd be saying how awesome these changes are. They aren't so we know just how much it upset a few subscribers. If they quit playing and paying their subscriptions it's the developers fault for making them want to leave. Goods show of successful design. Recent poor financial announcements from SE have proven that people aren't all stupid with their money.

[Bahamut]

When I listen to you all, I see a bunch of babies who cared little that abyssea rendered tanks useless and never once did you come to tanks aid. I'm sure there are tanks right now reading this and feeling really hurt by everyone wanting thier job and caring little to even bother trying to ask them to help you out. Adapt and ask a tank to help you for once and quit your crying here in the forum. The producer already said they did not intend for melee and casters to have emmity maxed equal to tanks in the first place.

[Luvbunny]

This negative nerf shit is disgusting. It breaks the game in ways that make people hate playing. It also breaks the will of the players.

Why should they continue subscribing if the game isn't fun anymore? If people are pleased then they they'd be saying how awesome these changes are. They aren't so we know just how much it upset a few subscribers. If they quit playing and paying their subscriptions it's the developers fault for making them want to leave. Goods show of successful design. Recent poor financial announcements from SE have proven that people aren't all stupid with their money.

Because they think we will just take all these changes and deal with it. And most of us will find a way or three overcome this, and figure it out a way to beat the system and pretty much clean it up. Then they come back with moare adjustment because you are not suppose to be able to beat the game so easily, I mean, you are not suppose to be smart and figure it out a way.

Embrava and PD strategy, smashed!! Pet burn? Squashed!! Solo??? Blocked!! What? you just want to duo with your friend??? They make sure the hate will be so fun to bounce around that playing is no longer fun. They are turning the clock back to 2003-2007 era, except this time, PLD is taking the spotlight again, everyone else is delegated at "playing defensively" and please don't do anything that involve JA or self buff or cure, or your tank will have a problem keeping hate. Well, as usual you can take it and do nothing or deal with it and do something about it.

Soon people will figure out a way to bilk tons of bayld out of smashing roots, you can bet your dollar the evaluation process will be adjusted to make sure that they bayld fountain stop there :)

[Sarick]

When I listen to you all, I see a bunch of babies who cared little that abyssea rendered tanks useless and never once did you come to tanks aid. I'm sure there are tanks right now reading this and feeling really hurt by everyone wanting thier job and caring little to even bother trying to ask them to help you out. Adapt and ask a tank to help you for once and quit your crying here in the forum. The producer already said they did not intend for melee and casters to have emmity maxed equal to tanks in the first place.

You'll be singing a different tune if the servers start shutting down because people subscribe to play this game their own style. Just because you think something is good doesn't mean it works for everyone. If it makes the casual players quit then we'll be left without anything to come back too. Are you seriously that optimistic thinking that everyone wants these drastic changes? Just deal with it? You must not care about this game much or lack understanding of what funds it.

Sure there needed to be some reason to bring tanks into the picture but it was done in an anti-productive way. If people don't want to play anymore you'll lose them. I'm not enthusiastic about the direction things are heading. I have some insight into where things are going. After all I've been a subscriber since 2004 and never have I felt so compelled to quit. I've seen all the nerfs and positive changes.

The nerfs up to this point weren't nearly as destructive. Back then they had the resources to handle things today they don't. I also so the things that brought in soloing etc. These things people call easy mode. You know I had the most fun when I was able to do things on my own. When I had to work with outer to get something done it was hard to find people willing to invest their time helping free. Sure I have friends but I don't like asking them constantly.

Now we have people being forced into another style that where already on the fence. Thanks these changes just made them say goodbye for now. There go's our helpful casual friends. Now what do we do when rest of the players who are hard core jerks who only care about themselves? Casual players be damned even though the market proves this is where the money is. There is no longer much enthusiasm to log on and play so it makes it easier to let the game die.

[Triffle]

Emnity is broken at the moment. I've had plenty of examples that got me killed due to it. Tried killing a mob with Avatar. Let avatar hit it for a bit then tried to do a blood pact and the mob immediately attacked and killed me.
Also tried killing some umbrils with a THF and me on SCH. He hits it for several minutes until it paralyzes him. I try to paralyna him, the umbril turns and destroys me. Funniest is when casting Raise on someone causes you to gain
hate from another player fighting.

So many examples of broken things with this update.

[Morkriegare]

You'll be singing a different tune if the servers start shutting down because people subscribe to play this game their own style. Just because you think something is good doesn't mean it works for everyone. If it makes the casual players quit then we'll be left without anything to come back too. Are you seriously that optimistic thinking that everyone wants these drastic changes? Just deal with it? You must not care about this game much or lack understanding of what funds it.

Sure there needed to be some reason to bring tanks into the picture but it was done in an anti-productive way. If people don't want to play anymore you'll lose them. I'm not enthusiastic about the direction things are heading. I have some insight into where things are going. After all I've been a subscriber since 2004 and never have I felt so compelled to quit. I've seen all the nerfs and positive changes.

The nerfs up to this point weren't nearly as destructive. Back then they had the resources to handle things today they don't. I also so the things that brought in soloing etc. These things people call easy mode. You know I had the most fun when I was able to do things on my own. When I had to work with outer to get something done it was hard to find people willing to invest their time helping free. Sure I have friends but I don't like asking them constantly.

Now we have people being forced into another style that where already on the fence. Thanks these changes just made them say goodbye for now. There go's our helpful casual friends. Now what do we do when rest of the players who are hard core jerks who only care about themselves? Casual players be damned even though the market proves this is where the money is. There is no longer much enthusiasm to log on and play so it makes it easier to let the game die.

The question you have to ask yourself, is will returning players like myself offset the players leaving? I joined the moment I smelled tanks being useful again. I'm going to consider new and returning players will partially offset most player loss overall.

[Karah]

You will likely change your mind after seeing what kind of changes are actually made,

It's rather 'pants-on-head' right now.

[Luvbunny]

Emnity is broken at the moment. I've had plenty of examples that got me killed due to it. Tried killing a mob with Avatar. Let avatar hit it for a bit then tried to do a blood pact and the mob immediately attacked and killed me. Also tried killing some umbrils with a THF and me on SCH. He hits it for several minutes until it paralyzes him. I try to paralyna him, the umbril turns and destroys me. Funniest is when casting Raise on someone causes you to gain
hate from another player fighting. So many examples of broken things with this update.

The same Umbril that chewed on Blue/Ninja can't even hurt a Rdm/Blue with cocoon + phalanx + stoneskin + boost vit + defense food. You will last a long time as Rdm. Bring echo drops, and remedy should things get dire. But I never in any time in any danger fighting Umbril. It paralyzed me quite a few times, but my para also did the same to it, slow, bio, blind all landed. Give it a whirl. The red coat is back lol. But yeah, enmity for pet jobs is BROKEN to pieces right now.... Need fix badly.

[detlef]

When I listen to you all, I see a bunch of babies who cared little that abyssea rendered tanks useless and never once did you come to tanks aid. I'm sure there are tanks right now reading this and feeling really hurt by everyone wanting thier job and caring little to even bother trying to ask them to help you out. Adapt and ask a tank to help you for once and quit your crying here in the forum. The producer already said they did not intend for melee and casters to have emmity maxed equal to tanks in the first place.Are you the guy who doesn't even play the game? You need not refer to people as tanks. There are people who have a tank job leveled, but almost nobody is defined by a single job.

Also, your idea of tanking is skewed. In your world, PLD is probably the only job that is allowed to tank. Everybody else who holds hate? Not tanks. MNK? Not a tank. WAR SAM DRK? Not tanks. The reality is that almost any melee job can tank (or could) and there is (was) nothing wrong with that.

While melee damage enmity was an issue, the current situation is hardly ideal. People who say good riddance to Abyssea, now you have to learn how to play mage jobs right... You haven't pulled hate with paralyze or stoneskin.

[Jaall]

While I agree with you detlef that people need to learn to play now instead of whining all the time, and clearly it's not as bad as to pull hate with a single debuff unless you're absolutely failing to do any damage at all, WAR and MNK etc were never fantastic tanks. It was always PLD, NIN or gtfo. WAR and MNK could tank but it was extremely situational so in that way it's still the same but PLD is and always will be the greatest fitting job for a tank role just, largely because of shields and how much they block tbh. Also pre abyssea no DRK could ever tank unless they had Apoc lol, but that's different because back then it was also a lot harder to get a relic, in my experience dread spikes only really helped for a certain time and as soon as it wore you were as good as dead! SAM/DNC was fantastic solo and again situationally but I wouldn't call it a tank simply cause you'd never see someone tanking a HNM or a classic dyna mass pull on SAM. I think there's still a lot to see with the latest update before we go judge what is and isn't a tank, and a lot will depend on the updates we get in the next few months.

[saevel]

Emnity is broken at the moment. I've had plenty of examples that got me killed due to it. Tried killing a mob with Avatar. Let avatar hit it for a bit then tried to do a blood pact and the mob immediately attacked and killed me.
Also tried killing some umbrils with a THF and me on SCH. He hits it for several minutes until it paralyzes him. I try to paralyna him, the umbril turns and destroys me. Funniest is when casting Raise on someone causes you to gain
hate from another player fighting.

So many examples of broken things with this update.

I'm beginning to believe there might be a problem with pet related enmity gains. All the problems reported are dealing with pets not regular players. It could very well be that pets simply are not generating any significant enmity. Probably them forgetting a decimal place somewhere.

[wildsprite]

While melee damage enmity was an issue, the current situation is hardly ideal. People who say good riddance to Abyssea, now you have to learn how to play mage jobs right... You haven't pulled hate with paralyze or stoneskin.

woah woah woah cool your jets there pal, many of us who know how to play our mage jobs and excel(sp?) at them have to now worry about hate we NEVER had to deal with before? so in your eyes that means we have to learn how to play mage jobs right?
I don't think you understand what the situation is here, the FACT is the Emnity system is broken,

we shouldn't be pulling hate off the tank with something as simple as paralyze or stoneskin as long as the tank has established sufficient hate.

but the problem is just that, they threw this in there without actually fully testing the results.

and they are going to fix this at the end of the month? this will probably also happen without fully testing it.
I cant be the only one wondering "why aren't they using the test server?"

[Thundarian]

I'm beginning to believe there might be a problem with pet related enmity gains. All the problems reported are dealing with pets not regular players. It could very well be that pets simply are not generating any significant enmity. Probably them forgetting a decimal place somewhere.

There is an issue 100%, but the issue is built into the system, not a result of some bug with pets. Doing testing tonight in Abyssea, I found that my avatar could not hold aggro with auto attacks on most mobs. With me sitting around doing nothing beyond the initial assault command, the avatar doesn't hold hate.

Why you ask? They rely on damage for creating aggro. They are currently, against a lot of mobs, losing more hate from being attacked than they are making with their auto attacks, causing them to quickly fall behind everything else. One ability every 45 seconds isn't enough damage to hold threat for another entire 45 seconds in a lot of situations.

Someone didn't sit down and do the math on how much hate an avatar would lose per second versus how much hate they would create per second from auto attacking in a lot of situations.

[Luvbunny]

That's very odd. I did go to Abyssea as summoner, Leviathan was able to hold aggro just fine with one Grandfall doing 2-3k damage. I was free to cast cure, self buffs, and whack the mob without getting the hate shifted back. I did test as bst + blm duo and Dipper Yully easily hold aggro vs Amhuluk, not once the hate is shifted. Nothing overtly wonky happening in Abyssea so far, seems everything working as intended lol. On the plus note, if you can get your defense way up there, Abyssea is even more easier now. Bring some defense food, your smn may need it :)

[saevel]

There is an issue 100%, but the issue is built into the system, not a result of some bug with pets. Doing testing tonight in Abyssea, I found that my avatar could not hold aggro with auto attacks on most mobs. With me sitting around doing nothing beyond the initial assault command, the avatar doesn't hold hate.

Why you ask? They rely on damage for creating aggro. They are currently, against a lot of mobs, losing more hate from being attacked than they are making with their auto attacks, causing them to quickly fall behind everything else. One ability every 45 seconds isn't enough damage to hold threat for another entire 45 seconds in a lot of situations.

Someone didn't sit down and do the math on how much hate an avatar would lose per second versus how much hate they would create per second from auto attacking in a lot of situations.

I had zero issues holding aggro as WAR or BLU while dual boxing salvage II or screwing around in abyssea doing trials.

A 70% reduction in hate from damage still leaves it as the highest source of hate by a long shot. I've run the math, hate is still easy to hold if someone actually does research and learns the hate system. Pets I can't really comment on as I don't play pet jobs through I can see a gimp melee BLM being unable to hold hate (what most avatars actually are). Remember the CE you lose from damage remains the same as before so your pet is losing it's CE just as fast as it's creating it. Thankfully most other players have damage outputs higher then a gimp melee BLM.

[detlef]

woah woah woah cool your jets there pal, many of us who know how to play our mage jobs and excel(sp?) at them have to now worry about hate we NEVER had to deal with before? so in your eyes that means we have to learn how to play mage jobs right?
I don't think you understand what the situation is here, the FACT is the Emnity system is broken,

we shouldn't be pulling hate off the tank with something as simple as paralyze or stoneskin as long as the tank has established sufficient hate.

but the problem is just that, they threw this in there without actually fully testing the results.

and they are going to fix this at the end of the month? this will probably also happen without fully testing it.
I cant be the only one wondering "why aren't they using the test server?"Uh hello, that's not something I'm saying. Reread it, I'm paraphrasing statements made by many other posters. Your post is agreeing with me 100% that things are happening that shouldn't be happening.

[Himrik]

The reality is that almost any melee job can tank (or could) and there is (was) nothing wrong with that.

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

[saevel]

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

*Whistle*
SMN/WHM...

[Hawklaser]

That's very odd. I did go to Abyssea as summoner, Leviathan was able to hold aggro just fine with one Grandfall doing 2-3k damage. I was free to cast cure, self buffs, and whack the mob without getting the hate shifted back. I did test as bst + blm duo and Dipper Yully easily hold aggro vs Amhuluk, not once the hate is shifted. Nothing overtly wonky happening in Abyssea so far, seems everything working as intended lol. On the plus note, if you can get your defense way up there, Abyssea is even more easier now. Bring some defense food, your smn may need it :)

Might be due to different mob levels, as I recall the note stating the enmity changes started around lv 50 content, and got scaled up with level. Its so noticable in adoulin because every thing appears to be 100+ mobs. Where as the mob level range in abyssea is all over the place.

[Himrik]

*Whistle*
SMN/WHM...

That's your definition of "every mage" ?
And I won't even ask in what event you really can main heal without higher tier Cures or Curagas.

And since people complain about having to sub WAR or DNC to keep hate, it's bad that you're forced to sub WHM to main heal.

[detlef]

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...What situation are you talking about? I'm talking about Salvage, Abyssea, that kind of thing. I'm not talking about Legion or any level 75 content.

[Hawklaser]

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

Lets see, Whm, Rdm, Smn, Sch, were all expected to be able to main heal parties, and were able to back in the day. I'm sure a few Blm's got asked to main heal groups too. So... I guess that just leaves Blu for the mages, and would not be surprised at all if some have been asked to be a healer for a group, just the smart blu's just kept doing whatever they were doing. Granted this would apply more to pre-abyssea stuff but it was there. Wasn't going to touch this earlier cause Smn/whm is the prime example of expecting any mage to main heal.

But back to jobs that can tank, any melee *can* tank, doesn't make it a good idea though, same applies to mages and healing. Really the main reason Pld and Nin are the go to tanks, is not because of how well they can hold agro alone but how well they can mitigate incoming damage too. Its the combination of holding agro and damage mitigation that makes a tank job. The tank role is not always filled by a tank job though.

And on to the forced subjobs... just look at how few subjobs are considered good outside of soloing or very specific events. Melee, its /war, /sam, /nin, /dnc and maybe /thf now, used to be just /war, /nin and /thf. Mages, its has almost always been /whm or /blm, and with the level cap being 99 now, /rdm and /sch have come into the spotlight more.

[Luvbunny]

But back to jobs that can tank, any melee *can* tank, doesn't make it a good idea though, same applies to mages and healing. Really the main reason Pld and Nin are the go to tanks, is not because of how well they can hold agro alone but how well they can mitigate incoming damage too. Its the combination of holding agro and damage mitigation that makes a tank job. The tank role is not always filled by a tank job though.


So, with that analogy, Blu actually can make a very excellent tank right after Paladin, Rune Fencer and Ninja. Between Cocoon, Saline Coat, Magic Barrier, etc - they have tons of spells that mitigate damage and can wear similar light armor like RUN and NIN. Their evasion seems to be just as bad as PLD so it would be either tanking with shadow or straight up blood tanking. With a WHM or SCH, BLU can tank very well, at least in Abyssea, probably just as good outside. Which then bring up the 4th and 5th slots of tanking.... Samurai and Rdm.

[Hawklaser]

So, with that analogy, Blu actually can make a very excellent tank right after Paladin, Rune Fencer and Ninja. Between Cocoon, Saline Coat, Magic Barrier, etc - they have tons of spells that mitigate damage and can wear similar light armor like RUN and NIN. Their evasion seems to be just as bad as PLD so it would be either tanking with shadow or straight up blood tanking. With a WHM or SCH, BLU can tank very well, at least in Abyssea, probably just as good outside. Which then bring up the 4th and 5th slots of tanking.... Samurai and Rdm.

The problem with Blu tanking I believe lies with the recast timers and durations of most of those spells, and possibly MP costs as well. Though, if I had to tank on an off job, I'd much rather do it on Blu than say Drg. Which I ended up doing once back in the day due to an extremely horrible Pld in a Valley of Sorrows xp party. That was a very painful party.

[Thundarian]

I had zero issues holding aggro as WAR or BLU while dual boxing salvage II or screwing around in abyssea doing trials.

A 70% reduction in hate from damage still leaves it as the highest source of hate by a long shot. I've run the math, hate is still easy to hold if someone actually does research and learns the hate system. Pets I can't really comment on as I don't play pet jobs through I can see a gimp melee BLM being unable to hold hate (what most avatars actually are). Remember the CE you lose from damage remains the same as before so your pet is losing it's CE just as fast as it's creating it. Thankfully most other players have damage outputs higher then a gimp melee BLM.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was talking about pets. I'm sure you do fine as a WAR or BLU with access to a variety of weapons, traits like double / triple attack, and job abilities / weapon skills you can use more than once every 45 seconds.

Also, as for the same amount of hate being generated as hate being lost from the reduction, that doesn't seem to be true. Summoners always claimed to be able to lose aggro over the course of a very long fight from their pet (I don't speak from experience, I didn't do the whole solo abbysea thing, just absurd amounts of carbuncle kiting). If that was true, the -70% coupled with defense changes seem to have made it so the amount of time it takes for that to happen is much much lower than it used to be. Who knows really. It would probably take a lot of information about avatar's that simply isn't avaliable online to test, so the best you can do is look at what is happening and guess.

[Luvbunny]

The problem with Blu tanking I believe lies with the recast timers and durations of most of those spells, and possibly MP costs as well. Though, if I had to tank on an off job, I'd much rather do it on Blu than say Drg. Which I ended up doing once back in the day due to an extremely horrible Pld in a Valley of Sorrows xp party. That was a very painful party.

Magic Barrier - 29 mp, recast 60 sec, duration 5 mnts
Cocoon - 10 mp, recast 60 sec, duration 90 sec
Saline Coat - 66 mp, recast 60 sec, duration 60 sec

Seems rather reasonable MP cost, especially with a RDM in party, or Sch/Rdm, Whm/Rdm. Slightly worse evasion than PLD but better than RDM. Yeah I feel for you on the old school set up party experience lol. It's back now though :)

[Zagen]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was talking about pets.

For what it's worth I've had 0 issues in Abyssea, Salvage 1, Limbus, and Dynamis keeping hate locked on my pets. I know that's not "hard" mobs but I haven't noticed the problem. I have however in that context noticed my pet's damage went up more notably than my own damage did. Don't get me wrong I still have to snarl after a Ruinator or 2 but I'm just not seeing the whole "bst pet can't keep hate off master" thing.

To be honest the only major thing the update did was cause me to need double to triple the food I used to use. As a BST and PUP fan that sucks but as a person who can look beyond those jobs I see it as a good thing as it "weakens" pet jobs without directly nerfing them which in general is a way to promote different game play in my opinion.

Edit: I haven't had a chance to do Arrapago Remnants II mainly due to the whole increased food need on easy stuff. That zone including the NQ boss clear was running my friend (other BST) and I 5 stacks of Thetas and 3-5 Dawns before the update and we're scared to see what it costs now haha.

[Hawklaser]

Magic Barrier - 29 mp, recast 60 sec, duration 5 mnts
Cocoon - 10 mp, recast 60 sec, duration 90 sec
Saline Coat - 66 mp, recast 60 sec, duration 60 sec

Seems rather reasonable MP cost, especially with a RDM in party, or Sch/Rdm, Whm/Rdm. Slightly worse evasion than PLD but better than RDM. Yeah I feel for you on the old school set up party experience lol. It's back now though :)

Yeah I looked at some of those, I just remember there being some reason other than how much damage blu does that caused it to never really catch on for tanking. Maybe it was cast times, or just the lack of many good native mitigation tools besides cocoon until 65 while cap was still 75.

[saevel]

Yeah I looked at some of those, I just remember there being some reason other than how much damage blu does that caused it to never really catch on for tanking. Maybe it was cast times, or just the lack of many good native mitigation tools besides cocoon until 65 while cap was still 75.

I tank on BLU all the time <.<

The reason it didn't "catch on" is because most players see "Mage" in it's name and immediately discount it. To properly play BLU you need a variety of gear sets and individual player skills. Also I've main healed on BLU before, it's just like the other healing jobs and Magic Fruit was stronger then Cure IV. Honestly before the cure buff BLU was the second best healer in the game, still a long distance behind WHM though.

Any "DD" can also be a "tank", they merely need to reach over and hit that macro that puts on their -DT gear. There is a ton of damage reduction gear available to everyone now, especially if your a WAR or DRK.

[Himrik]

If any DD should be a tank, why shouldn't any tank be a DD ?
Cause it's pretty clear on these forums that PLD doesn't deserve to do good damage, but everybody bitches when DD get their ass beaten when trying to tank...

Why don't you stick to your role and let the designed tanks do theirs ?

[Jaall]

If any DD should be a tank, why shouldn't any tank be a DD ?
Cause it's pretty clear on these forums that PLD doesn't deserve to do good damage, but everybody bitches when DD get their ass beaten when trying to tank...

Why don't you stick to your role and let the designed tanks do theirs ?

^ I agree with this to an extent. It's not like there's a shortage of PLD or NIN's now so any DD trying to do the same level of tanking as them is kinda pointless and just a way for people to still do more damage. PLD and NIN were always chosen over other "could-be" tanks because if they were available they did the job a lot smoother and a lot cleaner. The only exception would be MNK in salvage because well, that's obvious, and MNK in a few other things due to hp. I'm in no way saying it's not possible for DD to tank but they will never be as good as a PLD or NIN. There will most likely be a lot of "ohshi..." moments and if you don't have a good gear set and expect to tank straight out without putting the effort in (this is where a lot of people are going wrong and then come on here complaining about it) then you're gonna die, simple as.

[Zagen]

If any DD should be a tank, why shouldn't any tank be a DD ?
Cause it's pretty clear on these forums that PLD doesn't deserve to do good damage, but everybody bitches when DD get their ass beaten when trying to tank...

Why don't you stick to your role and let the designed tanks do theirs ?

When a DD sticks to their roll even after the update they're still capping hate and recapping it to the point they become the tank. At that point there is no reason to bring a dedicated tank job (PLD, NIN, RUN, w/e) outside of "just because" reasoning. Oh and by the way even with the update a DD isn't getting "their ass beaten" while trying to tank if they actually know how to play the game.

[saevel]

If any DD should be a tank, why shouldn't any tank be a DD ?
Cause it's pretty clear on these forums that PLD doesn't deserve to do good damage, but everybody bitches when DD get their ass beaten when trying to tank...

Why don't you stick to your role and let the designed tanks do theirs ?

I present exhibit A on whats wrong with the game.

People don't even know what their talking about.

[Himrik]

DD won't be killed ? That's weird, cause a lot of people doesn't seem to like MNKs and DRKs taking hits for 600-800 dmg because of the atk/def update.

By the way, this very thread complains about healers who frequently steals hate over DD, so capping hate is not as easy as you think. And if Cure will get you that much enmity over DPS, I wonder...

Who can Cure others to gain enmity ?
Who has a lot of defensive buffs to survive hits even with the recent adjustments ?
Who even used to sub WAR to have access to usefull hate tool like Provoke and Warcry ?
Who doesn't depend greatly on DPS to maintain their hate ?

Totally MNK, DRK and THF, right !

[Zagen]

DD won't be killed ? That's weird, cause a lot of people doesn't seem to like MNKs and DRKs taking hits for 600-800 dmg because of the atk/def update.

I'm guessing they don't know what -PDT or -MDT sets macros are for... I'm guessing you're referencing Oddwaffle's post with your numbers notice how the MNK is taking 600-800 while the WHM takes half that? Should bring up some red flags that lead to questions such as:

1) Is Countersance up?
2) Is the MNK in any -PDT gear?
3) Is the WHM in -PDT gear?

Yeah DEF matters a bit more now than it did before the update but it still matters less than proper gear swapping into PDT/MDT sets.


By the way, this very thread complains about healers who frequently steals hate over DD, so capping hate is not as easy as you think. And if Cure will get you that much enmity over DPS, I wonder...

There's no such thing as crap players... (Sarcasm if you can't tell) Can I get to the hate cap as a healer faster? Sure, doesn't mean I get there and stay there much of the time. Don't get me wrong if I screw up or the mob decides to be an asshole with certain TP moves over others I can end up dead more often but that's generally on longer fights or when we're unprepared for stuff.


Who can Cure others to gain enmity ?
Who has a lot of defensive buffs to survive hits even with the recent adjustments ?
Who even used to sub WAR to have access to usefull hate tool like Provoke and Warcry ?
Who doesn't depend greatly on DPS to maintain their hate ?

Totally MNK, DRK and THF, right !
Who can do math? If you can then go look up FFXI Enmity table. When you compare the damage numbers remember to reduce that total by 70%. What you'll find is that dealing damage is still the best way to keep hate. Sure Provoke and Flash got a boost as quick ways to get closer to the cap at the start of the fight or after hate reset but they're still just as useless as they were before when trying to stay at the top of the hate list when compared to damage dealing.

The only reason a PLD will take notably less damage than a DD is because of the shield they're using, Ochain's near capped block rate or Aegis allowing for -85% MDT. The thing is that still doesn't address the issue of how dealing damage is still the best way to keep hate.

[Himrik]

Yes, I can do the math.
DPS was great to grab hate not for the VE part, but for the CE.

CE gain per damage was 1.25 on a level 95 mobs, and 1.29 on a lvl91. So, let's assume it would be 1.21 on a lvl100 mob, and even less on IT mob.
Now, let's take 30% of that...0.363. Ouch

Now, let's see the enmity for damage taken, for which no adjustment was officialy made. With a Max HP of 1300, you'll lose 1.385 CE per damage taken. If you want to maintain hate, you'll have to hit four times harder than the mob.
And with the atk/def adjustment, I'm pretty sure that's not the case outside of WS.

As for the VE, you should gain approximately 1.08 per damage (3.6*0.3 on a level 100 mob) and you lost it at 60/tick (No adjustment was announced for that too).

So basically, you'll lost VE really naturraly, and CE too, if you take high damage.

A tank takes less damage par hit, has more hate tool, and can use it more frequently than WS, so no, I don't think DD are still THE best way to maintain hate, without even arguig about staying alive or burning down the healer's MP.

[Zagen]

Yes, I can do the math.
DPS was great to grab hate not for the VE part, but for the CE..
Using your 0.363 as it is likely correct or there about. Also let's use 100 damage per hit, simple number and I feel fairly attainable by a PLD on a lot of content.
Also using Almace.
Having capped gear and magical Haste.
0.363 * 100 = 36.3 CE every 1.17 seconds

Let's look at Cure IV for gaining CE in comparison assuming 0.575 CE based on numbers from this post showing numbers up to level 90 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3450-Enmity-How-It-Works-%28All-Paladins-Should-Read-This%29?p=55934&viewfull=1#post55934). I'm not sure what a PLD can get Cure IV up to but I think 600 seems fair with skill and gear.
0.575 * 600 = 345 CE every 8 seconds (factors casting time, recast, and magic delay)

In 8 seconds melee hits will have done 248~ CE generation. In those 8 seconds you gained 41 TP (assumes 0 STP). Let's push it out to 3 Cures to allow enough time for a full TP cycle.

Cure IVs: 345 * 3 = 1,035 CE
Melee: 248~ * 3 = 744~ CE
TP gained: 123

Your WS would have to generate 291 or less CE to be worse than cure spamming. So if your WS does less than around 800 damage you're better off curing.

Now here's the kicker while I used no +Enmity for the cures how many DD do you know who do so little damage or don't try to pop a WS right at 100% instead of sitting on TP?

[Demon6324236]

I'm not sure what a PLD can get Cure IV up to but I think 600 seems fair with skill and gear.Just to say, your average PLD can probably cure around 550~600, if you are truly geared for curing then a PLD can cure others for around 750~800 I think, and I know they can cure themselves for more than 900.

[Himrik]

Now here's the kicker while I used no +Enmity for the cures how many DD do you know who do so little damage or don't try to pop a WS right at 100% instead of sitting on TP?

Indeed you didn't use Enmity gear. And that can change the situation a lot. Let's say the PLD cures with Enmity +50 (Not that hard), he will gain 1552 CE in a full TP circle.

Assuming the DD doesn't use enmity gear (Since he shouldn't), he's still at 744 CE, so the difference is now 808 CE.
For your WS to place you over the tank, you need to do at least 2225 dmg.

As for DD who like spamming weapon skills, after getting a good slap from NMs, maybe they'll learn a little strategy. :p

[Zagen]

Indeed you didn't use Enmity gear. And that can change the situation a lot. Let's say the PLD cures with Enmity +50 (Not that hard), he will gain 1552 CE in a full TP circle.

Assuming the DD doesn't use enmity gear (Since he shouldn't), he's still at 744 CE, so the difference is now 808 CE.
For your WS to place you over the tank, you need to do at least 2225 dmg.

As for DD who like spamming weapon skills, after getting a good slap from NMs, maybe they'll learn a little strategy. :p

I like how you used 100 damage for what a DD would do... If you think that's how little damage a DD does I can see why you think cures are a good idea for hate.

[saevel]

So... much ... wrong ...

Holding back ....

[Zagen]

So... much ... wrong ...

Holding back ....

If you mean my numbers I'd rather you not hold back, point out my mistakes so I can learn from them.

[saevel]

If you mean my numbers I'd rather you not hold back, point out my mistakes so I can learn from them.

Not you, the ignorant one.

The update reduced both damage and cure CE / VE valued by the same .3 multiplier.

To a level 99 target hate went from 0.465 CE per 1HP to 0.139 CE per 1HP. VE is just CE x 6 for a new value of 0.834 VE per HP cured. A 800HP cure IV will generate 112 CE and 668 VE, a 400 HP Cure III will generate 56 CE and 334VE. In contrast a Cure V for ~any~ HP will generate *drum roll* 400 CE and 700 VE. Everyone read that right, Cure V now generates more enmity per HP healed then Cure III / IV, that is why so many WHM's who relied on it are having hate issues. Also remember Cure III / IV give hate for actual HP healed not total potential HP. "Cure Cheat" only works if someone can force their HP low enough that they get the fully enmity from the cure, this is why it was largely abandoned as a tactic.

CE from damage done is based on target level, so the monsters level. The higher level the monster the lower the value and it seems to go on a slope of about -0.012~0.014 per level after 90. So a monster at level 105 would have a CE value of 1.11 CE + 3.33 VE per damage done. After the update it would be 0.33 CE and 1.0VE per damage done.

Knowing that we can see how much hate is produced from one set of TP + WS. An average DD can WS once every 15~20s depending on buffs. With a 7-hit (again average, or slightly below average DD) your looking at 6 melee hits + WS damage. Lets do an average WS of ~2000 (kinda weak but whatever). Six hits at 200 each comes to 396 CE and 1200 VE, the 2000 WS adds 660 CE and 2000 VE for a combined damage hate of 1056 CE and 3200 VE. That's in ~20s.

Now a good DD that has a BRD buffing them will go WAY beyond the above numbers. On a level 120 target with CDB my averages were 283 damage per swing, 3224 per WS and ~8s between WS's.

Finally DD have thing known as a "ohh sh!t, please don't die" gear set. We've had that since 2004, though back then it was mostly +evasion or +defense and largely ineffective. From Abyssea into Voidwatch there has been a crap ton of PDT/MDT gear sets released, there is no excuse for DD's to not have at least 25% PDT and 40~50% MDT. The two highest DD's actually have it the best, they have better defense options then anyone else (sans shields). Personally I now have 47% PDT, 50% MDT 25% haste (capped 25%) with a 6-hit for AM up on WAR. DRK's can do the same thing with Apoc.

So the idea of DD's "dieing left and right" is utter silliness.

[Zagen]

Thank you for writing that out, I must have missed the cure hate nerf part though that explains why I haven't noticed issues on SCH (my preferred healer option).

[OmnysValefor]

Just to say, your average PLD can probably cure around 550~600, if you are truly geared for curing then a PLD can cure others for around 750~800 I think, and I know they can cure themselves for more than 900.

Help me out on how average pld's are achieving that. As a hume, I heal in idk, +20 mind and capped healing skill and I cap at 550... I see a lot of plds curing for low 400s.

I blink for my ws's, I blink for -DT, but I try not to blink for cures (I'm aware that I can swap 7 slots without blinking--including head with /displayhead off which makes twilight helm nice for curing*) I encourage the use of <stpt/al> but some mages simply don't use it.

While Twilight Helm's +10 mnd and vit is nice for curing, it doesn't add 5% cure potency, so you're better off leaving on a -DT headpiece. It adds so little that if af3+2 head is all you have, it might be superior for helping get the cure off and slightly faster.

I'm aware that mnd gear and skill helps, which is obviously why I'm healing better than most pld's but between pdt, mdt, ws, idle, and non-dt engaged sets, I'm running out of room.

[Demon6324236]

Help me out on how average pld's are achieving that. As a hume, I heal in idk, +20 mind and capped healing skill and I cap at 550... I see a lot of plds curing for low 400s.When I say average, I assume you have capped skill, really thats about all you should need to get over 500 on PLD, a little MND gear, healing skill gear(Sirona's Ring!), or CP gear can go a long way too, and there are a few pieces which are not to hard to come by. So in my opinion its not to hard to get up around those numbers on yourself and others, when you get into higher tier gear you have a lot of self potency options which take place after normal potency, which significantly boosts your cures, with the set I made for PLD CP you cure yourself for around 970 or so.

[saevel]

Thing with curing yourself is that healing enmity also took a reduction identical to damage done so the ratio between them stayed the same and has damage out on top.

[OmnysValefor]

When I say average, I assume you have capped skill, really thats about all you should need to get over 500 on PLD, a little MND gear, healing skill gear(Sirona's Ring!), or CP gear can go a long way too, and there are a few pieces which are not to hard to come by. So in my opinion its not to hard to get up around those numbers on yourself and others, when you get into higher tier gear you have a lot of self potency options which take place after normal potency, which significantly boosts your cures, with the set I made for PLD CP you cure yourself for around 970 or so.

Thanks. I completely forgot about the curing done to yourself sword, shield. Taking off almace/[aegis]/[ochain] is a big DD/DT loss.

But, then again, swapping invisible slots for 700 hp is probably a stretch, and as next poster pointed out, PLD's got hit with the same curing-hate "fix/nerf" that healers got. In 75 days, it was easy to make a Cure IV worth more than the damage done in the same length of time, but not so easy now.

In most cases anyway any healer, even a blm/whm (lol) will beat a pld on cure speed. Any time I might need 900 hp, even though I'll be casting my own cure, the healer will probably beat me to it.

[Demon6324236]

In most cases anyway any healer, even a blm/whm (lol) will beat a pld on cure speed. Any time I might need 900 hp, even though I'll be casting my own cure, the healer will probably beat me to it.That depends on if you use pre-cast gear, PLD can hit upwards of 50% cast time reduction if geared correctly I believe, been a while since I looked at my sets and did math though.



Edit:Correction, you would have to /RDM for 51% I think, but in either case, 34% is possible with normal PLD gear which is not to bad, 35% if you use the -cure cast time waist for Campaign but aren't in Campaign, and 49% if you are in Campaign(not like that matters though).

In either case, the sets I'm talking about specifically are...

Cure potency (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/266419)<Has 30% Cure Potency and 37% Cure Received.
Fast Cast (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/297225)<As stated before, 34% without /RDM, 51% with.
MP Recovery (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/264103)<If you are running low on MP, makes it nice to get back 5~35% MP back from the damage you take.

Mind you none of these sets are super easy or for the average player, but they are possible, which was all I was saying about the 900~ Cures, I do not expect the average player to hit that high with their cures at all.

[Absinthe]

I use PUP as my primary job and for now, haven't had many issues since I've only been using WHM automaton in adoulin areas, with proper set-up and positioning w/ regards to master and automaton, the enmity never becomes an issue...but I can, with certainty, see how this is a nightmare for other jobs... as such, this definitely needs to be re-worked/fixed/fine tuned.

Just wanted to say that there is something wrong with the way the automaton is getting hate at the moment. I would be interested to know what we are doing different so that I can at least have a workaround while they fix whatever they borked.

Or maybe it's just that my automaton is broken...? /pulls-string ("My spidey sense is tingling!") Nope - definitely working.