Congratulations on your level??

[Candi]

So this will probably sound like a whiny complaint to some, but I'd like your thoughts/ opinions about the current state of the game. So that you know where I am coming from (or maybe not- for new players) I first began playing FFXI on it's very first day of release. The town of San' Doria- where I started- was filled with adventurers running around with level 1 RSE (Race specific equipment) and questions marks over their heads (not to mention the question marks literally in their heads at home). West Ronfaure was teaming with people playing alone and together alike. Eventually you would discover the horrors of Ghelsba Outpost, learning to skillfully pull without aggro or dying repeatedly if you failed. Then it was off to Valkurm Dunes for your first party. And don't even get me started about the excitement of finally making it to prestigious Jeuno!
I understand completely that those days are gone. There is nothing like them anymore. Now it's hurry up and get to 99, get the best gear and go stand somewhere bragging about your false accomplishments and bagging on anyone who is not wearing what 99% of the players are wearing. Is this what the game has come down to- XP and gear? Before you say that's what it has always been about, I dare you to say you remember exploring new areas with large groups of friends just for fun. Ballista... BCNM... partying for 1 or 2 hours just to get another level, actually earning a <Congratulations!> Fighting over Notorious Monsters... Actual fun-adventure. Maybe I am wrong- but my thoughts of this game after coming back from a break is WTF is this??:confused:

[Luvbunny]

Not always about gears. Understanding how each jobs works and know how to play it well is somewhat required to master. The jobs are easy to get into but takes a bit longer to truly master it - and yes that including skilling and boy, you are going to get punished heavily if you take the express route of abyssea without a break. Trio-foursome with a few friends are quite fun as well, you can test the jobs and give you practice - which is where abyssea shine the most. I think it's all about mastering the jobs and gearing them decently. And knowing how to react and play well with others. There are tons of small group contents from the old days gone by and the new new stuffs like Meeble Burrows. You can still do a 3 person exploration. A lot of the dungeons have GoV which is beyond awesome since you can literally level there as trio from mid 60s to 99 without having to leave the area once and enjoying tons of bonuses and great skill ups rate. Not to mention those are great for farming geode, kindred crest, and many materials - can craft on the spot. The old FFXI and Abyssea right now give you TONS of contents to do, solo or small group. You literally will not have a down moment because there are so many things to do. You can safely skip SoA for now, really not much to do and need at least 2-4 updates before it is enjoyable. Have fun in the game, and don't forget to take a break :)

[Caketime]

Dear OP,

The Wonder Years have left us long ago, now it's about collecting high end gear and grinding monotonously for endgame weapons. Some of the really uptight people measure another player's worth by the stage of their Relic or Empyrean weapons and the state of their endgame gear, but the rest of us who have been around for 10 years stopped caring about that and have taken steps to ensure that we don't expose ourselves to the traditional pickup group, which are still terrible by the way. I suggest trying to find an LS with some old hats that realize building a character takes time and work, the kind that won't freak out at someone for daring to show up at an event without having farmed 99% of the game's content already.

The overall state of the game hasn't changed much, some things are easier to do and some others are still boring as hell despite being mindlessly simple, like Relic farming or being a DD in general. Experience parties are dead too for the most part, and nothing of value was lost. Have fun with GoV and Abby alliances, it's the new normal.

[Camiie]

I understand completely that those days are gone. There is nothing like them anymore. Now it's hurry up and get to 99, get the best gear and go stand somewhere bragging about your false accomplishments and bagging on anyone who is not wearing what 99% of the players are wearing.

The bragging and looking down on others was WAY worse in ye goode olde days than it is now. Think of those days like the 1950's. On the surface it seemed like a time of purity and prosperity, but beneath that facade there was cruelty and prejudice. Gear and being part of an elite group was serious business. If you didn't have the gear or you were outside the group you could be subject to ridicule, often on a very personal level. It definitely wasn't all kumbaya happy fun time.



Is this what the game has come down to- XP and gear? Before you say that's what it has always been about, I dare you to say you remember exploring new areas with large groups of friends just for fun. Ballista... BCNM... partying for 1 or 2 hours just to get another level, actually earning a <Congratulations!> Fighting over Notorious Monsters... Actual fun-adventure. Maybe I am wrong- but my thoughts of this game after coming back from a break is WTF is this??:confused:

I still wander and explore and so do others. I was never into Ballista, but it is still played. I saw a bunch of shouts for it yesterday. Fighting over NMs was never ever ever fun. See my above paragraph, because that's the sort of atmosphere fighting over NMs created.

[Alhanelem]

So this will probably sound like a whiny complaint to some, but I'd like your thoughts/ opinions about the current state of the game. So that you know where I am coming from (or maybe not- for new players) I first began playing FFXI on it's very first day of release. The town of San' Doria- where I started- was filled with adventurers running around with level 1 RSE (Race specific equipment) and questions marks over their heads (not to mention the question marks literally in their heads at home). West Ronfaure was teaming with people playing alone and together alike. Eventually you would discover the horrors of Ghelsba Outpost, learning to skillfully pull without aggro or dying repeatedly if you failed. Then it was off to Valkurm Dunes for your first party. And don't even get me started about the excitement of finally making it to prestigious Jeuno!
I understand completely that those days are gone. There is nothing like them anymore. Now it's hurry up and get to 99, get the best gear and go stand somewhere bragging about your false accomplishments and bagging on anyone who is not wearing what 99% of the players are wearing. Is this what the game has come down to- XP and gear? Before you say that's what it has always been about, I dare you to say you remember exploring new areas with large groups of friends just for fun. Ballista... BCNM... partying for 1 or 2 hours just to get another level, actually earning a <Congratulations!> Fighting over Notorious Monsters... Actual fun-adventure. Maybe I am wrong- but my thoughts of this game after coming back from a break is WTF is this??:confused:
Every MMO has always been "hurry and get to max level."

Funny thing is when a few other games which shall not be named tried to do something about this by weaving the storyline into your progression experience, everyone complained because they WANTED to burn down regular mobs to max level as fast as possible, not play actual CONTENT...

What you have, my friend, is called nostalgia fever. It can be cured with time.

The simple fact is MMOs change and evolve over time. They will never be the same years down the road that they were when you first started playing. You can get over this and enjoy the game now, or you can stay stuck in the past and wish for something that will never return.

[Candi]

Gaming is definitely defined by the perspective of the player. Caketime seemed to see my perspective. its no so much that I'm not wishing for old days but my point was leveling sooo fast just to say "Ha, I made it there first!" and not having actual learned the job is beyond ridiculous to me. It was the same back then- but you actually had to work for it. These days its like so what you are a level 99 in 3 days... You just stood in a party watching the scenery. Do you even know what to do? Oh, I forgot, that is what FFXI Wiki is for...

I think in order to fully enjoy (anything) in life, you have to experience multiple emotions- joy, sadness, anger, fear... Where is the sense of accomplishment if you didn't have to work for it? I can't say that I loved "old school" leveling- it definitely sucked. But this new way is pointless. Why not just have SE make everyone level 99 immediately and sell the best gear from an NPC for cheap? Seems like that's what some people would like. But once you are 99 with the best gear, what is there to do? Then go admire the beautiful atmospheres of the areas you skipped over or have never even been to? I know every inch and centimeter of all zones just before the last two expansions because I ran them, I leveled there, I died there, I did quest/missions there, I had fun there. Oh well.. Like Alhanelem says- get over it or enjoy it :)

*Liked* all your replies, thanks for your kind and respectful answers

[scaevola]

I don't even know what you're complaining about. If somebody levels a job to 99 in 3 days, they do it because they want to play that job at 99. If it had been possible to do so in 2004 it would have been just as common then as now.

Sheesh.

[Fermion]

Now it's hurry up and get to 99, get the best gear and go stand somewhere bragging about your false accomplishments and bagging on anyone who is not wearing what 99% of the players are wearing. Is this what the game has come down to- XP and gear?

What MMO isn't about XP and gear? Would you go on an FPS forum and complain that all you do is collect guns and shoot people? Or would you be critical of a fighter because all you do is punch, kick, throw and block? I'm not exactly sure what you kind of change would make you happy, but I don't think many people would call Ballista, BCNMs or grinding XP for hours "actual fun-adventure".

We're in the midst of a brand new expansion with new jobs, new areas, new mobs, a new enmity system, and drastic tactical changes. If you can't find "fun-adventure" in all that, then I don't know what to tell you.

You're never going to get back that bright-eyed awe you had in the beginning. Deal with it. It seems that you're letting nostalgia blind you to the fact that there's tons of adventures to be had in the game. Never in this games history has there been more to do. I'm sure if you take off the nostalgia goggles, you'll find something to enjoy.

[Riggs]

So this will probably sound like a whiny complaint to some, but I'd like your thoughts/ opinions about the current state of the game. So that you know where I am coming from (or maybe not- for new players) I first began playing FFXI on it's very first day of release. The town of San' Doria- where I started- was filled with adventurers running around with level 1 RSE (Race specific equipment) and questions marks over their heads :

If i remember it correctly the red question marks did not get put in to the game until later

[vienne]

I can relate with the OP, although I've had kids and a job back in the days and I still have them now, I always preferred the old way of lvling even if it was alot slower then it is now. And you'll never be able to convince people about your point but you're not the only one who prefers it and i know other people who agree. Dont get me wrong its not like i hate the post abyssea content, i like the mechanics in abyssea to acquire items and the proccing etc, but I just dont like the lvling and I've been very stubborn about this since I havent burned any of my jobs. In my eyes I dont see the sense in playing a game where I go from 1 to 99 in a matter of days, I feel there should be a feeling of progression, I want to experiment with newly obtained ja/ws/magic in my own pace, I dont want to read about it on wiki. It has nothing to do with nostalgia though, its more of a reason why people want to play, I want to work towards a goal and I want every step on that road to be a step that matters how silly that may sound.
Life already is enough of a rush, I dont want it on here.

[Karbuncle]

The only good thing about exping the old way was getting to meet new people and and talking during party, the social aspect of it. every other aspect of it was slow boring and dull.

Period. Even people who liked it know this is true. That said, I miss it, but a word of advice? Get a Linkshell and make some friends, Exping isnt the end of the game, once you hit the cap thats where a lot of the fun is now. Its no longer about afking for 29minutes out of every 30... In a way we've traded Socializing in Exp with socializing in Endgame. Learn to enjoy that.

I would however like to bring up ya'll Nostalgia-ing like a Mothafker in here, This happens when people get old and romanticize the past. Once you realize you're nostalgia-bombing yourself, maybe you'll see this game really hasn't changed all too much, its just different and more abilities/gear made us adapt a few different strategies, but the overall enjoyability is still there, you just gotta chose to not ignore it.

That and, You're old. But also you're now used to the game, its not new anymore.

[Caketime]

Karbuncle makes a good point, exp is no longer the journey, it's the precursor to the journey. I think back on the several jobs I've played and enjoyed, WHM, RDM and PLD to name a few, and I think about how much effort was required for exp. No thanks, I'd rather trade that for what we have now. At my convenience I can grab a few friends and do whatever we feel like doing, whether it be Dyna or Limbus or Nyzul/Salvage or even missions if we're feeling saucy. The only restrictions are in the tag systems in place, and we can get a bunch of stuff done in a few hours, not to mention the heap of jokes and awesome conversations that only drunk people playing a video game can have with one another. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't get that kind of fun out of any other game.

[vienne]

not to mention the heap of jokes and awesome conversations that only drunk people playing a video game can have with one another. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't get that kind of fun out of any other game.
^ that i totally agree :o

[Candi]

Some people didn't even read what I wrote but commented anyway...

[Candi]

In my eyes I dont see the sense in playing a game where I go from 1 to 99 in a matter of days, I feel there should be a feeling of progression, I want to experiment with newly obtained ja/ws/magic in my own pace, I dont want to read about it on wiki. It has nothing to do with nostalgia though, its more of a reason why people want to play, I want to work towards a goal and I want every step on that road to be a step that matters how silly that may sound.
Life already is enough of a rush, I dont want it on here.

I agree.

I knew the attack would come- people defending the game like I haven't been playing it along with them and probably longer then them or that I obviously must not have a LS or friends or do anything but complain... I still have fun on this game, why else would I pay for it?? It's still stupid to me that people stand in parties- not even playing just to max level.

But it's nice to know some people know where I am coming from. I really hope FFXIV, if ever released again, is nothing like FFXI in it's final stages.

[Alhanelem]

I disagree. The game is jsut beginning when you reach the highest level. There is tons of things to dow hen you get there. Leveling is just a vehicle to take you from the start of the game to the meat and potatoes.

Grinding the old fashioned way is definitely fun the first time you do it- after that, most poeple just want to get it over with.

The whole reason it was fun in the first place, as Karbuncle said, was the social aspect. You were a bunch of people sharing the same boring activity, so you talked to eachother and swapped stories which made it fun. The problem is the actual act of grinding itself wasn't so much fun.

There is tons of content to keep you busy once you get there. so get there, and enjoy it.

I kinda wish the pvp scene was a little stronger- In most games, PvP keeps you playing at that time when you're running out of other things to do and tides you over to the next PvE content release. Hopefully play as a monster will fill this void.

[vienne]

I disagree. The game is jsut beginning when you reach the highest level. There is tons of things to dow hen you get there. Leveling is just a vehicle to take you from the start of the game to the meat and potatoes.

Grinding the old fashioned way is definitely fun the first time you do it- after that, most poeple just want to get it over with.

The whole reason it was fun in the first place, as Karbuncle said, was the social aspect. You were a bunch of people sharing the same boring activity, so you talked to eachother and swapped stories which made it fun. The problem is the actual act of grinding itself wasn't so much fun.

There is tons of content to keep you busy once you get there. so get there, and enjoy it.

I kinda wish the pvp scene was a little stronger- In most games, PvP keeps you playing at that time when you're running out of other things to do and tides you over to the next PvE content release. Hopefully play as a monster will fill this void.

Well I have an ls, I even have two, i'm probably one of the more social people you'll ever meet till the point where you wanna scream at me to stop yapping. I do abyssea, I do dynamis, I do SoA content, I'm aiming to start doing salvage very soonish cause i like to dream about that unobtainable mythic... But i also like going out there on my own once in a while and grind some lvls, do stupid combinations with subjobs and get killed alot along the way, I love doing retro quests and get AF gear.
So no I really dont think I like to grind lvls cause I'm socially not capable of playing an MMO. If the fun starts at 99 maybe they should just drop the whole lvling concept. But I guess this whole discussion is kind of pointless people always say the same thing and dont even bother to emphatize with what someone else wants, its all about mememememe!
And yes some more PvP would be nice in this game.

[Demon6324236]

No one forces you to level to 99 in a day, if people want to they can, if people do not want to, they do not have to. Get some people who are like you and want to level slowly, make a static out of it where you go xp together at the pace you like, and there you go.

[Yinnyth]

So this will probably sound like a whiny complaint to some, but I'd like your thoughts/ opinions about the current state of the game. So that you know where I am coming from (or maybe not- for new players) I first began playing FFXI on it's very first day of release. The town of San' Doria- where I started- was filled with adventurers running around with level 1 RSE (Race specific equipment) and questions marks over their heads (not to mention the question marks literally in their heads at home). West Ronfaure was teaming with people playing alone and together alike. Eventually you would discover the horrors of Ghelsba Outpost, learning to skillfully pull without aggro or dying repeatedly if you failed. Then it was off to Valkurm Dunes for your first party. And don't even get me started about the excitement of finally making it to prestigious Jeuno!
I understand completely that those days are gone. There is nothing like them anymore. Now it's hurry up and get to 99, get the best gear and go stand somewhere bragging about your false accomplishments and bagging on anyone who is not wearing what 99% of the players are wearing. Is this what the game has come down to- XP and gear? Before you say that's what it has always been about, I dare you to say you remember exploring new areas with large groups of friends just for fun. Ballista... BCNM... partying for 1 or 2 hours just to get another level, actually earning a <Congratulations!> Fighting over Notorious Monsters... Actual fun-adventure. Maybe I am wrong- but my thoughts of this game after coming back from a break is WTF is this??:confused:

Prepare to be nitpicked to death.
1. San d'Oria, not San'Doria.
2. Day 1 did not have question mark icons, those were released much later. Same update they released mentors, I believe. A dark day for us all.
3. It might be because you play on a different server, but starter gear was never called RSE on Fenrir. RSE was wonder clomps and what-not. Later on, those things you got from BCNMs, but even those rarely got called RSE.



4. The game has always been a race to the top. I can't say this enough. Jeuno was prestigious because many players still hadn't made it that far. Just like how Borealis is prestigious because many people still don't have it. The race to the top still exists. Your interactions with players still exist. Grinding exp or grinding gear, it's the same. Nostalgia has a way of distorting things.

[Jaall]

While I'm nostalgic in a lot of ways and do kinda miss the old way of doing things and the fun times I had exp'ing, it really wasn't all sunshine and roses. I never had any of the gear I have today, in terms of how good it is, and that was always because you needed so many people to do an event and everyone would be lotting against you so if like me you have terrible luck with lots, you had no chance. I spent 3 years doing dyna every 3 days and got practically nothing, not to mention salvage. Times are much more fun now than they were before because you can low man pretty much anything. I've made a lot of friends since Abyssea and the social aspect, like mentioned, has only switched from exp to endgame and that's why people rush to the top. Exp'ing is not really relevant anymore, it's all about being 99 but getting to 99 is 100x easier so there's not so much of an issue except for issues people make for themselves. In a way the game is more social than it used to be because you're not forced to be in the same situation, you actually choose to be there and all have common interests in what you're doing.

[ManaKing]

The option to burn jobs has always been there, it's just a lot easier now. Skilling is still skilling and I know plenty of people that don't require it for the new jobs because they already had capped skills on other jobs. They still need gear and to learn what makes the new jobs good.

It's not like people are done with the expansion already. In fact there is still a lot to do and significantly more incoming by patches. This is probably the most pleasant expansion release I can remember because I still have things outside of adoulin to do, not to mention new things I want because of adoulin, and Adoulin is very low time requirements to get the basics done for you to be able to enjoy it.

[Candi]

Prepare to be nitpicked to death.
1. San d'Oria, not San'Doria.
2. Day 1 did not have question mark icons, those were released much later. Same update they released mentors, I believe. A dark day for us all.
3. It might be because you play on a different server, but starter gear was never called RSE on Fenrir. RSE was wonder clomps and what-not. Later on, those things you got from BCNMs, but even those rarely got called RSE.



4. The game has always been a race to the top. I can't say this enough. Jeuno was prestigious because many players still hadn't made it that far. Just like how Borealis is prestigious because many people still don't have it. The race to the top still exists. Your interactions with players still exist. Grinding exp or grinding gear, it's the same. Nostalgia has a way of distorting things.

Thank you English teacher.. Your ability to prove that I misspelled justifies your "nitpicking", lol~ And I'm guessing from your attempt to further make me look stupid, you must have started on the PC version which was released before the PS2 version on which I started where question marks and mentors were immediate. So you have a few months on me... That doesn't change the fact, though, that when you start the game you have on level 1 Race Specific Equipment- otherwise known as RSE (on server Quetzalcoatl as least)

This game has never been a race to the top- for me. I alwasy try to avoid that. Sorry it is for you. And since the obvious insult in this thread has been accusing nostalgia as my problem, well so be it. Standing in an XP party is still ridiculous to me and no matter how many times I'm referred to as "old" "nostalgic" or any other insult you can think of to discredit my FFXI knowledge- its still ridiculous to ME. That is my opinion and I think I am allowed to have one but I guess the verdict is still out on that.

If you actually read what I have written- I am not complaining about not having anything to do and I do not disagree that the game is more fun at 99- because it is. What I said, again, is that there is no sense of accomplishment in standing in an XP party... SE should have just given everyone level 99 on everything or make every mob "too weak" so that you can finally have real fun, right?

I'm done now because even I feel like I'm complaining just because and that wasn't the intent... Don't even know why I posted it at all. Anyway- happy Easter and fun adventures in the new expansion!

[Jaall]

Candi I think the point is, or at least my point is, that the feeling of accomplishment has moved from exp'ing to endgame and was a necessary move by SE to encourage newer players to join. The game was becoming very scarce with the need to merge servers and most of the reason they were losing players and never gaining any was because people would join the game and give up at lvl 20. By making it easier to lvl they increased the player base which in turn increased the majorities happiness because you didn't have to lfp for hours and hours, standing around doing nothing, which I think we can all agree wasn't fun in the slightest. No, exp'ing is no longer an achievement but it's still slightly satisfying knowing that you have a job at 99 and you can go out and experience all the fun of endgame providing you've taken the time to gear up properly and skill the job, which if you're a good player will do. Satisfaction is only what you make of it and some of the new endgame has some very satisfying rewards, like clearing NNI floor 100.

I had 8 jobs at lvl 75 "back in the day" which was a fair amount for a casual player, but I don't consider any of that levelling as much of an achievement as getting a Hagun for example, or going 1/20 on CoP 6-4. Levelling was just a small part of the satisfaction gained from the game and yea I do feel Abyssea lost the satisfaction but that was mainly due to it being so easy and nothing to do with EXP. Now though, the new expansion seems to be bringing back that satisfaction with harder content and content which looks to be like the old days, so I would highly recommend waiting on your opinion and trying to move away from exp'ing as you "reason for playing" as such and more focus on events you can duo/trio. Make a few friends, gear up and work towards higher content and you'll find that nostalgic social aspect once again, but just in a different manner to exp'ing.

[Horadrim]

Candi I think the point is, or at least my point is, that the feeling of accomplishment has moved from exp'ing to endgame and was a necessary move by SE to encourage newer players to join. The game was becoming very scarce with the need to merge servers and most of the reason they were losing players and never gaining any was because people would join the game and give up at lvl 20. By making it easier to lvl they increased the player base which in turn increased the majorities happiness because you didn't have to lfp for hours and hours, standing around doing nothing, which I think we can all agree wasn't fun in the slightest. No, exp'ing is no longer an achievement but it's still slightly satisfying knowing that you have a job at 99 and you can go out and experience all the fun of endgame providing you've taken the time to gear up properly and skill the job, which if you're a good player will do. Satisfaction is only what you make of it and some of the new endgame has some very satisfying rewards, like clearing NNI floor 100.

I had 8 jobs at lvl 75 "back in the day" which was a fair amount for a casual player, but I don't consider any of that levelling as much of an achievement as getting a Hagun for example, or going 1/20 on CoP 6-4. Levelling was just a small part of the satisfaction gained from the game and yea I do feel Abyssea lost the satisfaction but that was mainly due to it being so easy and nothing to do with EXP. Now though, the new expansion seems to be bringing back that satisfaction with harder content and content which looks to be like the old days, so I would highly recommend waiting on your opinion and trying to move away from exp'ing as you "reason for playing" as such and more focus on events you can duo/trio. Make a few friends, gear up and work towards higher content and you'll find that nostalgic social aspect once again, but just in a different manner to exp'ing.

The sense of accomplishment with FFXI was always in endgame. Once you got a single job to 75, every other one felt like a chore and the only rewards were in the fact that more jobs = more likely you'll get into an EndGame LS and get good gear out of it... And frankly, having just redone CoP this weekend -- there was nothing great about finishing those missions after dying a billion times. It took me all weekend WITH THE ABILITY TO TELEPORT AROUND THE WORLD. I still remember how annoying it was to get a full team of people together to do missions only to wipe and half of them leave after 4 hours of work. Sure, if they let you teleport back to the fight losing would have been ok, but honestly, going "1/20" when it takes 3 hours to get to the fight itself was NEVER appetizing, and frankly I recall at least one of my times quitting the game being after a week of suffering to finish missions, being able to do nothing fun for the grind, and ending the week going "Did I really just wast over 30 hours and have nothing to show for it?"

Nostalgia is a disease...

Honestly though, the game is dying off because its bad or for any other nefarious reason -- its just old. And people who aren't tied down by nostalgia eventually move on to newer things. If GW2 was enjoyable to me (its kind of meh) I'd be playing that instead. When FFXIV gets running full steam ,I'll likely move to that.

[Jaall]

I completely agree with you Horadrim, CoP was just an example of satisfaction, more that it was over and you never had to do it again! The same tbh goes for levelling although that satisfaction was short-lived when you joined a HNM shell and they needed you on another job so it started all again. Real satisfaction would be getting a claim on say Fafnir/Nidhogg and winning the fight. The rewards are just a bonus to the satisfaction you got, although even back then half the population did it for the rewards only, especially further after the release. As time goes on you do events over and over and the more you do them the more it becomes about material possession rather than satisfaction, same goes for everything even outside the game. And yea I agree it's dying cause it's old but the issue SE have is the players who played from the start are the vast majority of players still playing, because they can't get anyone else to join - hence Abyssea was made to make the game more appealing. The majority of MMO players in the world don't play to level up, they play for the content at endgame so they had to appeal to the majority. Never said it worked just that was obviously their business plan.

[saevel]

I did GoV until 52 then just leached the rest of the way.

Why? Because

Being an active 99 DRK/WAR/BLU/SAM and semi-active RDM/PLD the following skills were capped on their respective jobs
Great Sword
Great Axe
Sword
Axe
Evasion
Enhancing Magic
Divine Magic
Parry @373

I have the following merits
8/8 Great Sword
8/8 Great Axe
8/8 Sword
8/8 Great Katana
8/8 Enhancing Magic
8/8 Blue Magic
8/8 Elemental Magic
15/15 Hit Points
12/12 STR
12/12 DEX

Along with all the normal General stuff.

I have all the required 99 gear sets, Thaumas, Toci, Athos, Epona and all that jaz.

So going from 53~99 doing old slow XP would give me absolutely nothing, nada zip zilch. RUN came practically prepacked for 99 play for myself and I know I'm not the only one.

Plus people should be happy, those who get the the top first are the ones doing the testing and posting on bgwiki all the formulas and how to enhance all the abilities. They've paved a road that everyone else can now use as a guide stone for tweaking their builds. Instead of having hundreds of ignorant RUN's running around with no idea which end of the Great Sword goes where.

[Elrim]

I don't understand why they wouldn't make a classic or progression server. There are people who clearly want it and people who don't want to hear those same people complaining about how the game changed. Win win.

[saevel]

I don't understand why they wouldn't make a classic or progression server. There are people who clearly want it and people who don't want to hear those same people complaining about how the game changed. Win win.

Win / lose.

Those who want it know full well that they are very few in number nor are they the best of players. Putting them together on their own server would just create a ghost server where nothing gets done. The great part is they would be gone from the regular servers and we could all continue on without their incessant hypocritical b1tching. The sh!tty part is they would quickly realize how lonely / fail their new server is and move back to pester us all over again.

[RalphTheGalka]

I don't understand why they wouldn't make a classic or progression server. There are people who clearly want it and people who don't want to hear those same people complaining about how the game changed. Win win.

Because such a server would require thousands of people, and a lack of people is what prompted most of these changes in the first place.

You can't have traditional xp parties when there's only 4 people looking for group, and that's the situation the game was in well before level sync and abyssea were added to the game. You need a lot of people playing at all level ranges at all times, and that's just not something you're going to find on an old game like this.

And that's not even taking into account all of the crafters, fishermen, HELM, etc. that are required to make an economy work.

[Elrim]

I understand this. There are many old games with progression server or classic servers that use old school parties to group and level. One problem pre-books and pre-abyssea is that you had 20+ servers trying to pull it off with dwindling demand whereas classic lovers are requesting one consolidated server. It can and has been done on other older games; there is a large enough community looking for this kind of gameplay.

[Elrim]

Can't edit post on my phone, but google Uthgard DAoC or EQ progression server for proof that it can be done. There is a niche demand for this that should not be written off.

[Stan64]

I think the comment "you are not learning the job by burning it" is kinda wrong. First off you don't have most of the skills you would use in an end-game scenario. While you get a new skill and can test it out it's just fresh and untested for three minutes, then you need to a long time until you get the next one. While if you burn your job you can test everything out after each other. While you wont have the skills necessary to wield certain weapons and magic potently that's something you work out afterwards or as good as you can while you level.

Now when you have your gimped 99 characters you can spend the time doing easy endgame getting basic sets and learning more about the abilities of your job. Hopefully you found some good thread/guide/information about how your job works and try to weave it into the learning process.

All this is for me the correct way, using the collective knowledge of the players to get into the game faster and faster. And enjoy what you really want to do. Fun events, casual events, hardcore events, missions, crafting, grinding. There is something for everyone.

And if someone says you are doing something wrong with how you play, ask them what, look into it and refine. Don't get hurt and reminisce about older days that didn't exist.

[Candi]

I think the comment "you are not learning the job by burning it" is kinda wrong. First off you don't have most of the skills you would use in an end-game scenario. While you get a new skill and can test it out it's just fresh and untested for three minutes, then you need to a long time until you get the next one. While if you burn your job you can test everything out after each other. While you wont have the skills necessary to wield certain weapons and magic potently that's something you work out afterwards or as good as you can while you level.

Now when you have your gimped 99 characters you can spend the time doing easy endgame getting basic sets and learning more about the abilities of your job. Hopefully you found some good thread/guide/information about how your job works and try to weave it into the learning process.

All this is for me the correct way, using the collective knowledge of the players to get into the game faster and faster. And enjoy what you really want to do. Fun events, casual events, hardcore events, missions, crafting, grinding. There is something for everyone.

And if someone says you are doing something wrong with how you play, ask them what, look into it and refine. Don't get hurt and reminisce about older days that didn't exist.

This mad me laugh- then I thought that you might be serious. I shook my head but laughed even more.. Please tell me you are joking..

[Karbuncle]

If you think you need to spend months or weeks playing a job grinding in slow exp parties to "Learn" it... You must spend your time with a lot of slow people.

I can learn a job in a couple hours given the resources, I.E Internet, Math, reading, understanding the job abilities. Its not really that hard. But I'm actually going to level here and just say it, Everyone has a different learning curve. If it takes you 45 minutes to figure out how to cook Pizza Rolls, Yah you're probably not going to be too good at your job if you burn it to 99... But for those people who payed attention in Math class, know the formulas, how JA's effect what, etc... Its not going to matter if they burn it to 99 in a day or not, They're still going to know wtf they're doing, or at least know how to know wtf they're doing.

You don't even need to know math, or formulas, All it takes is reading other peoples studies/research on the subject... thats what i do, browse the latest information forums every so often to see if anything new has been learned or is going on. They always summarize their findings.

Just because you can't learn how to do your job without spending a month on it doesn't mean other people aren't quicker at catching on to things. This has been beaten to death but in all honesty, I'm not surprised by the fact you find it hard to believe a person can burn a job to 99 in and day and still learn it, what it boils down too... Stupid People gunna be stupid, Smart people gunna be smart, No amount of time is going to alleviate this, because those bad at the job lack the will or want to learn, and in most cases, cant even understand how they're doing it wrong.

Even if you put your average "tard" in a vacuum of perfect situations, He'll likely still never learn his job because he has no WANT to learn his job. He'll play "his way for his 12.95" and come out the other end in full Aurore with a level 57 Greatsword winning about how hard the game is and where Temp items are for Reives.

............

Sorry.. Its just, This topic has been discussed so much it makes me angry that some people still can't comprehend that bad players will be bad no matter how they level up, and good players will be good under any conditions... Its not about how you hit 99, Its about your willingness to learn.

Hell, THF Is my favorite job, 99 Mandau, all these gearsets, and i still spend time on forums reading up on whats best right now, new gearsets, new everything... Its just like being a doctor, or any field with heavy improvements often... You'll have to relearn it every so often, and if you don't want to put the time to be a good player, You're going to suck at the job rather you spent 2 months leveling on crabs, or 1 day in Abyssea.

I should also mention, I don't think you have to be perfect to enjoy the game, i don't think you have to know the math and formulas to have fun, Its just, If you're going to complain about how Abyssea ruined high level players by taking the "learning" out of exping, I'm going to bring in the fact that you're wrong, which usually invovles no small amount of technical babble.

[Candi]

Your opinion is not a fact. That, is common sense. You aren't right anymore than I am.

I appreciate your view that a good player will be good under any condition, but the rest of your response is not appealing. If you have to use belittlement and narcissistic comments you degrade your point.

I can respect your opinion on the topic, but I cannot respect how you argued your point.

A valid point requires no hostility.

[Hercule]

I 300% agree with Candi on everything in this thread

[Alhanelem]

There are many old games with progression server or classic servers that use old school parties to group and levelMany? I only know of one- everquest. It was something of a success there because anyone who still plays everquest is the hardest of the hardcore in terms of MMO players, so it was pretty much right up the entire playerbase's ally particularly if they wanted to start over. For more recent games, that's far less likely to be the case.

[Karbuncle]

Your opinion is not a fact. That, is common sense. You aren't right anymore than I am.

Fair enough, though i dont recall claiming otherwise... but hey, Ihave short term memory. Still, The rest of my non-fact post is common sense. Good players will be good, Bad will be bad. Abyssea changed nothing. Let me introduce you to what is indeed a fact.

Nostalgia'dPlayer: "ToAU Ruined Exping, Colibri/Merits are too easy"
Nostalgia'dPlayer: "Astral Burning ruined exp, Its too easy"
Nostalgia'dPlayer:"Abyssea Ruined Exp, Its too easy"

Players will always Look for a scape-goat to blame when they realize... "damn, people around me are gimp and stupid and can't follow orders". In reality, this isn't Abysseas fault, there's just a lot of dumb
mf'ers in the world, and they're a lot more apparent due to the " Pick up " Nature of the game right now.


I appreciate your view that a good player will be good under any condition, but the rest of your response is not appealing. If you have to use belittlement and narcissistic comments you degrade your point.

I believe it only degrades it only to those who chose ignorant pride over dignified intelligence. Those who are willing to learn and accept easily see past any perceived hostility and see its more of just "Ranting at nobody" than it is picking on one individual, i do this a lot. Its rarely about attacking a person and more about debating a point of view, as is the goal of forums.

Still, I have shown that i understand your side of the argument to the extent i can when i have a different opinion. I've made references several times that I understand the Nostalgia, cause i feel it too. I understand why people find oldschool FFXI Attractive, The social aspect of leveling the old way is gone, Being congratulated on your level is out the window in most situations... But all of this is recaptured in Endgame. Grats on your drop, etc. Its not about ignoring your points, its about debating their legitimacy.

If what you're saying is an opinion, thats great, but I'm not going to let SE think its a great idea to waste time and resources creating a rolled back server, when My opinion feels its not necessary or needed, and they should focus their efforts on future content, not Nostalgia.

As you've said clearly, My Opinion is every bit as valid as yours, this is why I'm stating it. When it comes to opinions, Accepting someones opinion isnt the same as believing it or thinking its right. I can understand where you're coming from, and still think you're super dooper wrong.


A valid point requires no hostility.

This is only true if people show the willingness to accept opinions that differ from theirs. There are, despite what some people try to peddle, people who only respond and understand or even LISTEN to people if they're taking a firm, somewhat hostile tone. Its sad but it happens, and its out there.

So far, your posts have A) Laughed at anyone who disagreed with you B) Accused them of not reading your posts C) Laughing AND Asking if their serious, then laughing more. So on my first hostile note of this post, take that "no hostility" and sell it to someone else cause at this point you're being hypocritical. When you show respect to other posters, I show respect to you.

And no personal offense to you, But so Far every person I've met on the "RoseTinted 2004 FFXI" Bandwagon has been adamant in refuses to admit that 2004 FFXI Kinda sucked, and that the only thing they're remembering is the nostalgia. Plus when someone brings up how "Abyssea ruined FFXI", I want to punch a wall, Because since Abyssea, FFXI is still very much alive and populated... and if FFXI was "Ruined", SE wouldnt have bothered with a new Expansion like Adoulin, they'd of just released more Nickle-dime Expansions like ACP.

Though back to my first sentence, Nostalgia isn't an opinion, its a psychological fact... People romanticize the past because its something they can never recapture. Hint: Your first Girlfriend/Boyrfriend, Your first Kiss, Your first day of School... You're never reliving those days, so you always long for them. This is what you're doing with FFXI. You may not realize or accept it, But This is whats happening to you. It happens to everyone who grows old. It happened to me, It happened to random confused guy above me, and it happened to the posters two pages back.

Nostalgia happens. I know for a fact I look back fondly on old FFXI, but it was never because i enjoyed Grinding Crabs for hours, or putting together failed parties... It was because of the friends I had. Your not going to recapture the joy on some Vacuum Server of Nostalgia, You'll only feel that way again if you let yourself enjoy the new FFXI, with new friends.

[Alhanelem]

I believe it only degrades it only to those who chose ignorant pride over dignified intelligence. It degrades it to anyone with any sense of dignity. You should not be berating and belittling. You can make your point without resorting to it. You don't need to be offensive to influence people.

[Hercule]

You Karbuncle and Alhanlem with your 3000+ and 4000+ messages on these forums should really stop to post your opinions on everything that poping here, you always repeat the same thing tirelessly, you're always think you're right on everything and argue with other people that don't think like you as if you were at war, personaly I'm just tired of seeing you and I really think for most of the FFXI community you're just a curse who contribued to slowly kill this game and pull it down.

[Elphy]

Ok I will admit, I have complained a bit in the past about the new leveling system. BUT after having 5 fully merited 75s before aby made lvling up 10k times faster I have to say that if they would reinstate the old system, I would likely not play anymore. A good middle ground wouldnt be bad, but having to spend months lvling a job was not fun. Esp when you could have your flag up for literally a week solid and not get an invite. Or you could resort to one of the few jobs...rdm, brd, pld come to mind...that you would get invites without your flag even being up.

The only thing I do miss is the conversations and laughter you had with complete strangers in an old pt. The book burns and aby burns nowadays mostly lack that making it somewhat hard to get to know other players, form lasting friendships and linkshells. I think that is the only thing good about the old leveling days.

[Elphy]

You Karbuncle and Alhanlem with your 3000+ and 4000+ messages on these forums should really stop to post your opinions on everything that poping here, you always repeat the same thing tirelessly, you're always think you're right on everything and argue with other people that don't think like you as if you were at war, personaly I'm just tired of seeing you and I really think for most of the FFXI community you're just a curse who contribued to slowly kill this game and pull it down.

Karby isn't so bad, from the few encounters we have had in game s/he is fairly decent and even when we disagree in posts, they will explain their perspective and never in a way I have found insulting.

To the latter I cannot comment :D

[Alhanelem]

You Karbuncle and Alhanlem with your 3000+ and 4000+ messages on these forums should really stop to post your opinions on everything that poping here, you always repeat the same thing tirelessly, you're always think you're right on everything and argue with other people that don't think like you as if you were at war, personaly I'm just tired of seeing you and I really think for most of the FFXI community you're just a curse who contribued to slowly kill this game and pull it down.
What the heck business is it of yours how many posts other people have? And what right do you have to slander others? I can't speak for anyone else you're naming, but I do not think I'm always right, I'm not at war with anyone, and if you want to worry about what's bringing the game down, I'd say it's more likely to be rude jerks who make inflammatory remarks toward other people for no good reason.


Karby isn't so bad, from the few encounters we have had in game s/he is fairly decent and even when we disagree in posts, they will explain their perspective and never in a way I have found insulting.

I will not comment on the latterWe're no better or worse than each other. There is nothing wrong with talking a lot and having opinions. Just because we have them doesn't mean we think we're always right. In general terms, I regard most people around here with the same esteem- nothing more or less than equals, posting because we have things we want to talk about.

You two say you're sick and tired of me/us posting on these boards, well I'm sick and tired of being flamed and insulted just for doing so.

I make one post in this thread and you start attacking me. I did nothing to provoke this.

[Elphy]

I make one post in this thread and you start attacking me. I did nothing to provoke this.

If your talking of me I did no such thing, I just commented on my exp with Karby

[Alhanelem]

If your talking of me I did no such thing, I just commented on my exp with Karby
Mostly I wasn't, but in my eyes you did imply a lot by saying you wouldn't comment. I could have read too far into it though and would apologize if that's the case.

No, it was more directed at heracle, ragging on me and on Karbuncle purely because we post a lot.

[Elphy]

Mostly I wasn't, but in my eyes you did imply a lot by saying you wouldn't comment. I could have read too far into it though and would apologize if that's the case.

I have had back and forths with Karby and some exp with them in-game. With you, I have only seen posts here and in xiv but have never really had extensive back and forths with you, just random responces here and there, hence the lack of comment

reworded it as I can see how it could be taken

[Elphy]

Ok to get us back on target and avoid a flame war I'm going to bump my last relavent-to-the-topic thread :D


Ok I will admit, I have complained a bit in the past about the new leveling system. BUT after having 5 fully merited 75s before aby made lvling up 10k times faster I have to say that if they would reinstate the old system, I would likely not play anymore. A good middle ground wouldnt be bad, but having to spend months lvling a job was not fun. Esp when you could have your flag up for literally a week solid and not get an invite. Or you could resort to one of the few jobs...rdm, brd, pld come to mind...that you would get invites without your flag even being up.

The only thing I do miss is the conversations and laughter you had with complete strangers in an old pt. The book burns and aby burns nowadays mostly lack that making it somewhat hard to get to know other players, form lasting friendships and linkshells. I think that is the only thing good about the old leveling days.

Discuss :D

[Demon6324236]

The only thing I do miss is the conversations and laughter you had with complete strangers in an old pt. The book burns and aby burns nowadays mostly lack that making it somewhat hard to get to know other players, form lasting friendships and linkshells. I think that is the only thing good about the old leveling days.Thats the same as how I feel, its why I never level new jobs slowly, even RUN I have gotten to 35 leveling in a duo or small party with my GF but after the first 35 levels its just gotten boring. Some of my best friends were from old experience parties, but they are not the same anymore, and even if they were, the people were the only thing I liked, the leveling itself was dreadful.

[Jaall]

Tbh, looking through my friendlist the majority on there aren't even from exp parties, most are from ls's and they still exist in the game and there are even more social ls's in the game now than there were years ago. That's mainly because big event shells have gone due to not really needing them so the main use for a linkshell now is just social which is great really imo.

[Candi]

I work hard all day. Ffxi is a stress reliever- It's a game and games are meant for fun. The last thing I want in a game is work. Trying to out lvl and out-item others is not fun to me. My character is well suited for the jobs I have with special thanks to my past and present LS friends and family (my brother helped me tremendously). But I don't play to brag.

I play for positive interaction with others. Some people think this game is a single player game to be beat. You can't beat this game... I help random strangers, not because I'm trying to show off my knowledge or skill set. But because its fun and rewarding to me. The day I boot this game up with the sole intention to get items will be the last day I play it (partial reason I quit before- the game was soured by selfish people using other people to get stuff). Could this be the reason ffxi is failing? Not because the game was too hard, but because everyone started racing to an invisible finish line. Some couldn't keep up, some didn't want to race in the first place, and others pushed people down just to get ahead.

If you remember my original thought, i married xp draining with putting others down if they aren't geared like you. I wish there were more argument on why that is acceptable and fun. I have a feeling, though, the players who lvl burn to get end game gear are the ones doing the bragging. If its not "you" then there's no reason to get defensive.

And this is all you will hear from me on this topic.

[Salvation]

I understand this. There are many old games with progression server or classic servers that use old school parties to group and level. One problem pre-books and pre-abyssea is that you had 20+ servers trying to pull it off with dwindling demand whereas classic lovers are requesting one consolidated server. It can and has been done on other older games; there is a large enough community looking for this kind of gameplay.

Perhaps the better question here is why do you require your own special server for this type of play? Having access to Abyssea, FoV, GoV, etc. does not necessarily mean that you have to use them. They are simply there as an alternative means to gaining exp. Surely if the demand is as large as some would imply, then all of these players could agree to congregate onto an already existing server and forgo using the previously mentioned tools.

All these arguments about how *insert change here* has ruined FFXI is baseless at best and absolutely asinine. Those of us that have been here from the beginning have seen this argument made a million times. Every time something new is introduced to reduce time sinks there is always a vocal minority that screams about how the new change is the harbinger of the FFXI apocalypse. Yet, the game still remains.

[Jaall]

I work hard all day. Ffxi is a stress reliever- It's a game and games are meant for fun. The last thing I want in a game is work. Trying to out lvl and out-item others is not fun to me. My character is well suited for the jobs I have with special thanks to my past and present LS friends and family (my brother helped me tremendously). But I don't play to brag.

I play for positive interaction with others. Some people think this game is a single player game to be beat. You can't beat this game... I help random strangers, not because I'm trying to show off my knowledge or skill set. But because its fun and rewarding to me. The day I boot this game up with the sole intention to get items will be the last day I play it (partial reason I quit before- the game was soured by selfish people using other people to get stuff). Could this be the reason ffxi is failing? Not because the game was too hard, but because everyone started racing to an invisible finish line. Some couldn't keep up, some didn't want to race in the first place, and others pushed people down just to get ahead.

If you remember my original thought, i married xp draining with putting others down if they aren't geared like you. I wish there were more argument on why that is acceptable and fun. I have a feeling, though, the players who lvl burn to get end game gear are the ones doing the bragging. If its not "you" then there's no reason to get defensive.

And this is all you will hear from me on this topic.

Sorry to say but FFXI has always been about who has the better gear to the majority of players, it's the reason they play. While there are a good amount of people who play for the casual side there will always be the "hardcore" types who play for gear. It's kinda just the way of any mmo, people understand that this is a game you can't beat but that doesn't stop them trying to be the best, it's their idea of "beating" it. Not many people put you down for having bad gear. Nobody has put you down for anything, only have pointed out that the game has always been this way only the content has differed slightly and there are new ways to do the same thing, such as abyssea being the new smn burn for example. It's not really meant as offensive to you, only as a way of saying everything looks good when you reminisce but in reality it wasn't any better or worse back then than it is now but the context has changed because the games content has changed.

[Horadrim]

I don't understand why they wouldn't make a classic or progression server. There are people who clearly want it and people who don't want to hear those same people complaining about how the game changed. Win win.

Because no one would play on it. Not nearly enough people who want to play the game the old way are around or else you wouldn't even have to make posts like these -- BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE ENOUGH OF EACH OTHER TO DO THINGS THE OLD WAY.

People aren't leveling quickly because they are forced to, people aren't doing missions at level 99 because they have no choice -- if there were people who actually wanted to do things the "hard" way outside of an overly vocal minority there would be no problem. If you want to form an old school part in ToAU zones or in an obscure old school camp, shout the level range and find someone with a job of appropriate level to sync to -- it is as easy as that.

if you can't find people for that, then dare I say you might be a bigger minority than you believe -- and it is not in SE's best interest to cater large amounts of time, energy, and money towards appeasing gross minorities.


Sorry to say but FFXI has always been about who has the better gear to the majority of players, it's the reason they play. While there are a good amount of people who play for the casual side there will always be the "hardcore" types who play for gear. It's kinda just the way of any mmo, people understand that this is a game you can't beat but that doesn't stop them trying to be the best, it's their idea of "beating" it. Not many people put you down for having bad gear. Nobody has put you down for anything, only have pointed out that the game has always been this way only the content has differed slightly and there are new ways to do the same thing, such as abyssea being the new smn burn for example. It's not really meant as offensive to you, only as a way of saying everything looks good when you reminisce but in reality it wasn't any better or worse back then than it is now but the context has changed because the games content has changed.

This.

I've never been "hardcore" but I do like number crunching and the only way to be a successful, happy number-cruncher is to grind gear. FFXI has always been about end game and the hyper elitist part of the community that demands everything cater to them and keep them entertained -- frankly, every MMO has that set of players and they are perfectly correct in their demands because there needs to be something left to do to keep people playing.

Like it or not, but the evolution of FFXI over the last 10 years has followed that train, and the reason the game is still SE's biggest money maker is because it has worked. People may claim to hate Abyssea and the level 99 increase, but the fact they are still playing is proof that they enjoy it more than they'd like to let on.

[Karbuncle]

I've never been "hardcore" but I do like number crunching and the only way to be a successful, happy number-cruncher is to grind gear. FFXI has always been about end game and the hyper elitist part of the community that demands everything cater to them and keep them entertained -- frankly, every MMO has that set of players and they are perfectly correct in their demands because there needs to be something left to do to keep people playing.

Like it or not, but the evolution of FFXI over the last 10 years has followed that train, and the reason the game is still SE's biggest money maker is because it has worked. People may claim to hate Abyssea and the level 99 increase, but the fact they are still playing is proof that they enjoy it more than they'd like to let on.

And this is how i feel. I don't know intricaceis of dDex, or fSTR, I don't know the exact meanings behind them, But i know how they effect me, and i know how to gear in a way to cater to them. I may not know all the formulas by heart, But I still take the time to learn them, and Its always been about the gear.

Back when i was playing, during NA BETA mind you, I loved the game. I collected crystals even though i had no clue what they did, and when Beta was over, I played my brothers character for a bit... Got his RDM to level 30, Wore Centurion Scale armor, and Meleed with my sword. We camped Bune together for an Enhancing sword for him.

When i was level 50, I was in Gustav, and Bune spawned, a NIN and a RDM were doing it, I was on THF, and i offered TH2, they accepted. So i meleed and Put TH2 on it, now i couldn't hit it, let alone fight it... But I enjoyed helping. No, Unfortunately both of them died at some point, but since i was the last one to hit Bune never went unclaimed, so it went around Murdering the other 12 people waiting to claim it because they tried to cure-bomb the NIN to steal hate... I mean, I had no idea was it was still claimed to me, so i watched it kill the 12 people in there, then I just flee'd to the zone because i knew it would come for me.

In retrospect i laugh my a** off, but all these wonderful memories aren't going to happen again just because im on a Nostalgia server.. they're gone, they're always a part of me, but they're gone. I'm making new ones in Adoulin. I spent the last 2 days forming alliance of make-shift people.

We talked, enjoyed it... Hell, we made a plan, and we kicked butt. everyone followed directions, no one died (Except for a few final stings...) and overall we all bonded and really enjoyed ourselves. I quote one of them

"I love it when a good plan comes together"

We made a strategy to work with what we had.. THF's, NIN's, 2 BLU's, a couple makeshift DD, some not even level 90... But we still won cause we worked together, and i had a blast. Fun is what you make of it... You'll always have memories, but dont long for them, Find new ones, and enjoy the game for what it is. :D

Please continue!

V This little tidbit is just for Hercule, you guys can read it if you want but its whatev's V

[Caketime]

Sorry to say but FFXI has always been about who has the better gear to the majority of players, it's the reason they play.

I always thought it was about having fun. Does this mean I've been doing it wrong for 10 years?

[Luvbunny]

I always thought it was about having fun. Does this mean I've been doing it wrong for 10 years?

Your definition of FUN may be different from others - which is totally fine. Abyssea let you do whatever you want on your own time and your own leisure with just a few people. It's a great farm spots, good zone for blue mage to do some blue magic hunting, some great areas to skill ups, heck you can just afk and chit chat while gaining tons of xp :)

[Caketime]

But I wasn't talking about Abyssea. :(

[Jaall]

Luvbunny is completely right, don't really need Abyssea but that's just content that can be fun for a lot of people. Fun has a very wide definition. While you might find it fun to run around large areas exploring the land, someone else might find it fun in enclosed areas killing all the mobs and dislike exploration. Same goes for pretty much everything in game and reality. Fun can also be found in everything, it's kinda what a games for and the job for SE is to make a game that appeals to everyone or at least everyone in their target market. Being a final fantasy game, and an MMO, they do end up having a fairly large market, players which may come from number crunching MMO's etc and players that like tackling formulae to work out exactly what will happen next and to them that is fun. I think SE do a pretty decent job at making the game fun and granted when they go and produce new content it wont be fun to everyone because of what I said before, fun has a wide definition and is pretty much different for every single person, but they aren't removing old content and you can still make what you want out of the game. You can still find 5 other friends, and go make a lvl 55 exp party in Wajaom for example and it will be exactly the same as it was 6 years ago.

[Caketime]

Obviously fun has a wide definition, long winded explanations aren't required, and often miss the point. What I'm saying here is that from ToAU until this release the game has had a distinct lack of fun activities, the only entertainment available during these boring hamster maze sessions is joking around with friends. That does not make events fun, it makes them tolerable. We also have that wonderful timer attached to every event that guarantees only certain jobs may participate in most cases because of the gross imbalance between jobs and their potential damage output/overall worth to a group.

Some may say that the solution is to level and gear a job that the player may not necessarily enjoy, just to complete an event and get gear for a job they actually like playing. Getting to the actual event and completing it is most often an exercise in running around looking for an exit or a particular monster or beating down a horde of trash mobs. This is not fun content, it is designed to be the opposite to give players a false sense of triumph when they're finally done slogging through it.

Now we have content that's fresh, accessible, and has visible progress in multiple forms. You can take your Abyssea and ToAU and shove them both straight back up Tanaka's colon where they came from. Playing with someone's fecal material never struck me as entertaining, but diff'rent strokes I guess.

[vienne]

Win / lose.

Those who want it know full well that they are very few in number nor are they the best of players. Putting them together on their own server would just create a ghost server where nothing gets done. The great part is they would be gone from the regular servers and we could all continue on without their incessant hypocritical b1tching. The sh!tty part is they would quickly realize how lonely / fail their new server is and move back to pester us all over again.

You sound like a nice person to know.

[Jaall]

Obviously fun has a wide definition, long winded explanations aren't required, and often miss the point. What I'm saying here is that from ToAU until this release the game has had a distinct lack of fun activities, the only entertainment available during these boring hamster maze sessions is joking around with friends. That does not make events fun, it makes them tolerable. We also have that wonderful timer attached to every event that guarantees only certain jobs may participate in most cases because of the gross imbalance between jobs and their potential damage output/overall worth to a group.

Some may say that the solution is to level and gear a job that the player may not necessarily enjoy, just to complete an event and get gear for a job they actually like playing. Getting to the actual event and completing it is most often an exercise in running around looking for an exit or a particular monster or beating down a horde of trash mobs. This is not fun content, it is designed to be the opposite to give players a false sense of triumph when they're finally done slogging through it.

Now we have content that's fresh, accessible, and has visible progress in multiple forms. You can take your Abyssea and ToAU and shove them both straight back up Tanaka's colon where they came from. Playing with someone's fecal material never struck me as entertaining, but diff'rent strokes I guess.

You've kinda missed my point entirely despite saying my definition wasn't required. While this isn't fun for you, it is fun for others and the majority come to that. Kinda begs the question, why do you still play if it's as bad as "playing with someone's fecal material"?

[Elrim]

Perhaps the better question here is why do you require your own special server for this type of play? Having access to Abyssea, FoV, GoV, etc. does not necessarily mean that you have to use them. They are simply there as an alternative means to gaining exp. Surely if the demand is as large as some would imply, then all of these players could agree to congregate onto an already existing server and forgo using the previously mentioned tools.

All these arguments about how *insert change here* has ruined FFXI is baseless at best and absolutely asinine. Those of us that have been here from the beginning have seen this argument made a million times. Every time something new is introduced to reduce time sinks there is always a vocal minority that screams about how the new change is the harbinger of the FFXI apocalypse. Yet, the game still remains.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said the game was bad or that changes ruined the game. The game is simply different and everything from content to server culture/community has changed. The only way to experience classic community is with a progression or classic server. That is what I would like, but you are free to play the game as it is. We simply have different tastes.

[Luvbunny]

Now we have content that's fresh, accessible, and has visible progress in multiple forms. You can take your Abyssea and ToAU and shove them both straight back up Tanaka's colon where they came from. Playing with someone's fecal material never struck me as entertaining, but diff'rent strokes I guess.

LMAO, you may want to take back that statement. SoA is a maze of corridor. There is a timer! ONE HOUR for roots and 15-20 mnts for NEST (which you can skip since no one wants to do this now). There is a timer!! A lot of the contents are locked safely. A 6 hours timer on tags (which is great by the way - a lot lower than the BS 20 hours cool down crap). A 15 tag limits (still a BS which hope to be addressed soon). A lot of the quests are accessible - true, but the same goes to every other expansion (Abyssea was way too accessible for even level 30 lol). Timers everywhere - some are better and some are worse, which is expected.

If you are bored with ToAU and Abyssea, it is expected, one is 7 years old and the other, is a recycled areas and 3 years old content now. No mention of WoTG? Yeah nvm, I agree with you, not worth mentioning either. You hate that your jobs is excluded for events XYZ? Blame the players not the developers. In fact, a few old forgotten jobs are back now. For how long? One cannot say. PLD came back in the spotlight briefly in 2011 when Voidwatch first came out and it needed a PLD at lvl 90 cap.

Fun is definitely different for everyone. But a lot of people just want to log and play and go whack the mobs at their leisure, regardless of prejudice of gears and skills, not to be looked down as LOL noobs. They should be able to do this - they pay this game. Obviously when you play with larger groups, you are expected to know some things, if you don't - hopefully others are kind enough to let you know the proper "group etiquette" and expectation of your jobs/role.

Right now the game is not as fun, there are multiple reports on hate being a big issue for pet jobs (the same exact people who usually just roaming for fun and exploring and try new things). Defense being an issue with thf, ninja, mnk and dancer - which renders them in a big disadvantage farming currency in dynamis. And hate being a serious issue for mages in general - meaning the tank job cannot function properly when the WHM is getting chewed just trying to do its job in the first place.

As for SoA - your definition of fun is running from one roots to another to whack it? When there is a full alliance cleaning all the roots, all the smaller group and solo straggler cannot even participate this in two starting zones. No roots left for them to whack, or it is over in a minute or two. This is not fun, not with an hour respawn. There is your timer again.

And speaking of timer.... There are a slew of OMG incredible weapons with bling bling stats that surely will bring ruinous omen to those who did work very hard for their R/M/E. Not to mention starting gears that probably soon renders all old events a waste of time to do. The timer is ticking indeed, the death of Voidwatch, Neo events, Meeble, and Abyssea has just begin. As K-Dollar-Sign-Sha used to say:.... Tick tock!

[Elrim]

Because no one would play on it. Not nearly enough people who want to play the game the old way are around or else you wouldn't even have to make posts like these -- BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE ENOUGH OF EACH OTHER TO DO THINGS THE OLD WAY.

People aren't leveling quickly because they are forced to, people aren't doing missions at level 99 because they have no choice -- if there were people who actually wanted to do things the "hard" way outside of an overly vocal minority there would be no problem. If you want to form an old school part in ToAU zones or in an obscure old school camp, shout the level range and find someone with a job of appropriate level to sync to -- it is as easy as that.

if you can't find people for that, then dare I say you might be a bigger minority than you believe -- and it is not in SE's best interest to cater large amounts of time, energy, and money towards appeasing gross minorities.



This.

I've never been "hardcore" but I do like number crunching and the only way to be a successful, happy number-cruncher is to grind gear. FFXI has always been about end game and the hyper elitist part of the community that demands everything cater to them and keep them entertained -- frankly, every MMO has that set of players and they are perfectly correct in their demands because there needs to be something left to do to keep people playing.

Like it or not, but the evolution of FFXI over the last 10 years has followed that train, and the reason the game is still SE's biggest money maker is because it has worked. People may claim to hate Abyssea and the level 99 increase, but the fact they are still playing is proof that they enjoy it more than they'd like to let on.

The people who want this kind of server aren't playing just as I haven't been playing for a long time. You don't see the demand because the people that are looking for it quit when they find out it isn't there. Only after it is offered do we see these people flock back to these servers as they have in Uthgard and EQ progression servers. I'm not sure how difficult it is to throw a server out there with patch 1.0 but I doubt it is more difficult than trying to make a classic feel server using more updated rulesets. I know this won't get player traction on the forums because people still playing enjoy the game as it is, but it is the best way for this kind of thing to get visibility with the devs. From past experience I'm sure it would be popular enough to thrive as any other server does, but I don't expect everyone to jump ship and switch servers.

[Caketime]

You've kinda missed my point entirely despite saying my definition wasn't required. While this isn't fun for you, it is fun for others and the majority come to that. Kinda begs the question, why do you still play if it's as bad as "playing with someone's fecal material"?

I was referring to ToAU and Abyssea content rather than the game in general, I find both expansions to be incredibly boring and needlessly restrictive. I had to slog through it just like everyone else, but it was in no way fun and should not be used as a measuring bar for current content.

Besieged and Einherjar for example, are both battlefields designed for alliances to kill monsters. Einherjar has a bit more flavor to it with some bosses requiring specific tactics to defeat. It also has a reward system, and therefore more content requiring thought, which is completely absent in Besieged. But then again Einherjar is mostly just zerg tactics with a bit of mob holding, so it basically turns into people standing around at one point or another actively engaging in buttscratching.

Abyssea is designed like a pyramid, and when the player ascends to the top of the pyramid said player is greeted with another pyramid. The only time I have ever had fun in Abyssea was drunk, the hundreds of hours I've spent in there farming this or that or 75 of those have been mostly boring. Farm one NM, move to the next, then the next. Most of the time you can even go afk and do the laundry during these fights because the NMs are so ridiculously easy to beat you can fritter away your time and occasionally heal to victory. The only positive side of it is all the conversation time with LS buddies, I would have quit without them.

You know Bunny, I appreciate what you have to say most of the time. But I'm just not seeing your point of view on this, most of what you're saying is bunk. You can do Reives at any time, and they spawn in a bunch of spots. Can't get anyone doing lairs? Bring a BLU, have fun. I like this not only because it's a new place to explore (don't care about corridors) I also get facewrecked if I'm not careful. This is awesome, the way it should have been years ago, we have to suck less to succeed. I like that in my games, and FFXI is finally bringing it back. Also, I apologize for nothing.

[Luvbunny]

I dont mind doing Reives, but running around following people or waiting around is not my idea of fun. A bit waste of my time. Since in Bahamut, most roots are cleared up rather fast leaving stragglers or solo explorers with not much to do but run around again on your marked maps to find the next roots. Wasp nest are avoided cuz they give you almost nothing. Too bad you are not having fun in ToAU or Abyssea or any contents coming out after that. I did, it's great to just log in and play with 0-2 people without having to resort to jobs xyz or too many restriction.

In case you didn't notice, most of SoA is safely locked in its tiered iron clad garden and right now, roots and wasp nest are pretty much the most popular option to grind your bayld. Granted all jobs can participate - well, pretty much tank is somewhat needed, and a sleeper. This is similar to how campaign was in the beginning, free for all whackaton for fun :) And it is fun. Until you realize it's over very soon and an alliance mowed the rest of em fast - leaving you with not much to do.

And I cant really explore safely as summoner - even if most mobs are dead in 3-4 rage BP. Just doing one BP rage is enough to send the mob attacking me....

[Candi]

... it's great to just log in and play with 0-2 people without having to resort to jobs xyz or too many restriction.

This was needed 10 years ago.

[Jaall]

I dont mind doing Reives, but running around following people or waiting around is not my idea of fun. A bit waste of my time. Since in Bahamut, most roots are cleared up rather fast leaving stragglers or solo explorers with not much to do but run around again on your marked maps to find the next roots. Wasp nest are avoided cuz they give you almost nothing. Too bad you are not having fun in ToAU or Abyssea or any contents coming out after that. I did, it's great to just log in and play with 0-2 people without having to resort to jobs xyz or too many restriction.

In case you didn't notice, most of SoA is safely locked in its tiered iron clad garden and right now, roots and wasp nest are pretty much the most popular option to grind your bayld. Granted all jobs can participate - well, pretty much tank is somewhat needed, and a sleeper. This is similar to how campaign was in the beginning, free for all whackaton for fun :) And it is fun. Until you realize it's over very soon and an alliance mowed the rest of em fast - leaving you with not much to do.

And I cant really explore safely as summoner - even if most mobs are dead in 3-4 rage BP. Just doing one BP rage is enough to send the mob attacking me....

Um... Can't believe I really need to say this but, there's more than one zone, and I guarantee that 3 other zones will be effectively empty and still hold reives. If you're bored by the ease of reives go do one in the basalt fields, every mob in them is very tough meaning it'll challenge you even further. Just stop complaining already and just go play it, you gave up way too easy and are now just playing ignorant to everything because you've decided you don't like it.

And Caketime I really do agree with you for the most part, I'm not even sure what kinda side you're fighting for, like for or against nostalgia? But yea there have been good and bad sides to both times and expansions have had hit/miss aspects, like Einherjar was virtually impossible for years after it was released and hardly anybody actually did it a year after it was made easier because it just wasn't all that great. Abyssea to me was just a way to get my char to 99 and get the gear needed to move onto the harder content. Haven't actually been inside Abyssea for anything other than a few merits in the past 6 months.

[Luvbunny]

Um... Can't believe I really need to say this but, there's more than one zone, and I guarantee that 3 other zones will be effectively empty and still hold reives. If you're bored by the ease of reives go do one in the basalt fields, every mob in them is very tough meaning it'll challenge you even further. Just stop complaining already and just go play it, you gave up way too easy and are now just playing ignorant to everything because you've decided you don't like it.

You need to chill lol. There are at least two zones for reive with everyone clustered in Cezhak and not bother to stop by at Yahza. I am not flat out hating SoA but it's clearly a beta content, which is somewhat expected from SE. That does not stop me to try and see what works, and how to maximize the enjoyment, even if it is not much. I don't give up that easily but the broken enmity and the atrocious hate issue with pet jobs at least rendering two of my favorite jobs somewhat broken for doing exploration. That does not mean it's the end of the road. Good thing abyssea pretty much let you sample all 22 jobs in a flash to find other jobs that could work for exploring SE. So far I am having fun as Rdm/Blue. Definitely will try other jobs combo to see which one suits me the best for now while SE is taking their sweet ass time fixing the update. At least they admitted there is something wrong.

[Jaall]

I am chilled lol, but you're incredibly annoying with all your undignified hate for SoA. I do agree on some of your points but most are just whining about it when really it's only your own fault. In every zone there are reives and they get harder the further out you go, like I said, in the basalt fields they're all VT mobs. If you don't like standing around waiting for a reive and you don't like bashing roots or they "die too quick" go make an alliance and head out to the basalt fields to hit rocks there. There are at least 5x more reives in that zone because of how huge it is and it's not all corridors. Your arguments were valid before everyone started properly playing it but while you've been sat here not exploring and arguing that it's s**t people have actually been playing it and realising it's a lot more than just waiting around for a reive to start, making you ignorant for not accepting that and still arguing your case.

[Caketime]

And Caketime I really do agree with you for the most part, I'm not even sure what kinda side you're fighting for, like for or against nostalgia? But yea there have been good and bad sides to both times and expansions have had hit/miss aspects, like Einherjar was virtually impossible for years after it was released and hardly anybody actually did it a year after it was made easier because it just wasn't all that great. Abyssea to me was just a way to get my char to 99 and get the gear needed to move onto the harder content. Haven't actually been inside Abyssea for anything other than a few merits in the past 6 months.

I'm for fun, not nostalgia. Einherjar was distinctly not fun, requiring half of my old LS to show up drunk just to make it entertaining. Sometimes all of us showed up drunk, then things got real interesting. For the most part a lot of content has felt like a chore to me, I did what I felt like doing for my reward pieces, and what kept me going was my friends. Every time someone wears a subligar and takes a seat on a fresh corpse, or when the resident Galka strips and chases after the Tarus for "lap time", it makes me want to keep doing things with these weird awesome people even if the activity itself is kinda boring.

Thus far Adoulin is very entertaining, it filled my entire afternoon with exploration, meeting up with old friends and making new ones. The exploration almost feels nostalgic, but only because it's been so long since I've had the chance to run around in fresh new zones and there's no need for wiki (for the most part) which is just awesome.

[Luvbunny]

If you don't like standing around waiting for a reive and you don't like bashing roots or they "die too quick" go make an alliance and head out to the basalt fields to hit rocks there. There are at least 5x more reives in that zone because of how huge it is and it's not all corridors. Your arguments were valid before everyone started properly playing it but while you've been sat here not exploring and arguing that it's s**t people have actually been playing it and realising it's a lot more than just waiting around for a reive to start, making you ignorant for not accepting that and still arguing your case.

Trust me, I always shout with location where the reive is, because everyone seems to love sitting and waiting hoping it will magically appear in 15 mnts. I marked all the location so I know where to go next, it baffles me that a lot of people just stand outside the reive and waiting for others to go kamikaze and get whacked first by a group of mobs before they come and join, going straight for the roots while the first timer getting pecked by purple butterfly - which then come after the other roots whackers soon after and you start seeing dead bodies everywhere. It's good when you have a PLD + Whm duo - which control the mobs, the rest of the melee are playing on zombie zerg mode, they can't tank by themselves, they can't raise, and they can't heal the others. So they just whack the roots till they get pecked to death. And now that they have adjusted the amount of bayld you can receive using magic, expect tons of RDMs to join the fray. You are getting reduced bayld if you just melee DD - LMAO!! Pld and Rdm to the front line with all those melee Whms :)

[Jaall]

If you're happy with it stop complaining in every post you make with exactly the same points. If you don't like people standing around then make an ALLIANCE, didn't say shout pos because people wont always listen and are prob afk waiting not actually standing there the whole time. People being dumb in their own right is not a cause to call the whole expansion a fail and if you don't like it you do have other zones to go to which are empty, which gives you no real argument for the whole expansion being a fail. I'm not sure anymore what you expect or what you want, you're always complaining some way or another but never actually have a valid point except for what you deem fun/boring, and then slightly hint that you actually enjoy SoA... Attention seeking maybe? I literally have no idea.

[Candi]

I'm not even sure what kinda side you're fighting for, like for or against nostalgia

Unfortunately, this thread was not about arguing for or against nostalgia. Since I started it, I can safely say that it was about the current state of the game where seemingly enjoying game play is no longer the point- but maxing lvl and gear is. To avoid accusations and assumptions, perhaps I should have said the following: I, myself, find the current status of this game disheartening and discouraging being that seemingly players no longer play for amusement but for status. I, myself, personally do not find pleasure or accomplishment in leveling by joining and just standing in a party. Doing so just to rapidly level then point and laugh at those who aren't as accomplished as I appear. We all know this type of player, maybe it is you. but this person makes the game fun for no one and I'd venture to say its not even fun to them. Maybe they get pleasure out of it because they are treated bad in real life. This is my thought. Any person is free to have their own but when we start arguing and fighting over something as simple as personal opinions sadly you prove to be the person I made this thread about. A person who puts others down over a stupid video game...

Regarding a classic server not working MY opinion is that it would. If by saying nothing would get done you mean players won't have ambition to do anything besides chatting, I'd say you are wrong. Instead players would not be in a rush to out-do each other but players would help each other.
On the other hand, I don't see how a server with people solely after status could thrive. As soon as people get what they want they disband.. If you depend on loyal friends or LS members to avoid this, then you must admit you have that nostalgia that is so inexplicably dreaded. Nostalgia of teamwork.

[Jaall]

Candi you come across as a very ignorant person in the fact that not everyone burns their way to the top and even if they do they aren't all ruining the game for everyone else. If you do link burning a job to 99 with wrecking fun then you are in fact judging 80% of the people who play today, of which only about 10% are that bad. If you do not wish to come across this bad player you don't have to but the fact that you come on here and offend most of the FFXI population because the game's taken a massive turn in it's life and now has features designed for the very reason of levelling quickly, it's actually kinda hypocritical.

You say these people ruin the fun in everything and just point and laugh but nobody has actually done that in this thread. All they have done is clearly state exactly the same as I am now, which is that the game has changed to this way of being played and whether you like that or not the vast majority do, and it works. You can say it's not fun anymore but that is your opinion and you expect people on a forum to not argue that, even when most people disagree? These ways have already existed in the game in the forms of smn burn etc except now it's easier to do. You do not HAVE to burn a job to 99 in the same way you never HAD to smnburn. You can easily join book burns till lvl 75 and then abyss to 99, or even make old exp parties. We've said it a million times already, please just open your eyes and realise that this is the way the game is, and comparing it to the "old days" is just silly due to the changes in recent updates and expansions. If you don't find it fun, why play it at all?

[Candi]

If 80% of the players are getting top gear and lvl just for status and lvl so fast that they don't know how to actually play their job-then I guess you have proven your point because that was my angle.

I am talking about A and others are bringing in B, C, and D. You can't pick a piece of my sentence and try to hang me, you have to evaluate the whole thought or else why respond?

My point, however is not about the current way people level but what they do after they get there. Again, to me, Candi, I don't understand level burn a job and then read wiki? People have become afraid to play because the next person can't wait to criticize them. They need to read wiki to know what to do? How about you go find out what to do on your own? Personally I don't want to read wiki all day to figure out how to play. I, CANDI, don't want to spend hours farming this or that because <insert job> is "supposed" to have it- then a few months later a newer-better item comes out and start all over again. I'd rather had spent that time doing quest/missions helping others find enjoyment in the game. I never agreed that grinding the same mob for hours or days just to get a level was cool. I forget who said it, but there should be a happy medium. On release you should have been able to get 1 or 2 other people and level. Leveling is not what the game is about. Getting gear is not what the game was designed for. Don't believe me? Go read the release statement of FFXI 2002/3 from SE. That should be enough said... But as repeatedly stated I am not the majority. I never claimed to be. I just asked for thoughts and opinions. Some people turned it into a battle of then vs now, right vs wrong, fact vs, opinion, me vs you...

And to answer your question, Jaall- The reason I play this game still are for the same reasons you've been reading and responding to this thread. For satisfaction that at least some people see it my way, because it should have died long ago and I am flabbergasted that it has not, and lastly because for the parts I choose to see in it are still simply entertaining.

[Jaall]

I can't even be bothered to read all of your post anymore, it's actually insulting to a lot of people saying that everyone has become afraid of being judged. I suggest you actually open your eyes and take into account other peoples views before speaking for them, especially when they've already said their bit and the views you speak of are yours alone. If you had read what I said correctly, I said 80% of players are people who burn their jobs up not playing to get top status and if you actually played the game rather than complaining about it all the time you'd realise where we are coming from when we say the fun has now shifted to social aspects in end game events rather than EXP. EXP parties could still be considered "getting the best" so what you're saying is incredibly hypocritical and just down right rude to most players today. The only people you're not offending are those who think exactly like you which just to point out again are the extreme minority in this case. And just to add, you can forget about your 2002/3 release date statements, time changes in 10 years and this game has severely changed, and it doesn't look to be changing back. I do hope you find this satisfaction you're looking for in FFXI but I highly doubt you'll find it and be happy. People who can't seem to move with the times always end up unhappy one way or another because everything has to change.

[Candi]

I complained about a specific type of player.You accused me of judging 80% of game players. Maybe you shouldn't read my post anymore and get back to the game. After all, I'm an obvious idiot so why start an arguement with me? Can YOU understand that not everyone thinks like you? So call me hypocritical and ignorant but don't forget to say it to yourself. And the reason you think you are in the majority is because the majority of people who negatively respond to threads like this scare off people who are like minded like me-except if the name calling doesn't scare me. Don't read this, when you do, don't respond, when you do know that at this point I care about your opinion as much as you do mine. Farewell.

[Luvbunny]

I'm not sure anymore what you expect or what you want, you're always complaining some way or another but never actually have a valid point except for what you deem fun/boring, and then slightly hint that you actually enjoy SoA... Attention seeking maybe? I literally have no idea.

So.... are you happy with the recent changes? Does not seem like everyone is thrilled with it - including you. Now you know what it feels like when you no longer able to enjoy the game with the jobs that you love. At least I can still go and play as Rdm or BLu, since the recent changes would favor those combo jobs. Just saying, stop being all so positive - start being critical if you want some changes to be made - maybe not going nerd rage and canceled your subscription hah hah hah.

[Prrsha]

Gaming is definitely defined by the perspective of the player. Caketime seemed to see my perspective. its no so much that I'm not wishing for old days but my point was leveling sooo fast just to say "Ha, I made it there first!" and not having actual learned the job is beyond ridiculous to me. It was the same back then- but you actually had to work for it. These days its like so what you are a level 99 in 3 days... You just stood in a party watching the scenery. Do you even know what to do? Oh, I forgot, that is what FFXI Wiki is for...

I think in order to fully enjoy (anything) in life, you have to experience multiple emotions- joy, sadness, anger, fear... Where is the sense of accomplishment if you didn't have to work for it? I can't say that I loved "old school" leveling- it definitely sucked. But this new way is pointless. Why not just have SE make everyone level 99 immediately and sell the best gear from an NPC for cheap? Seems like that's what some people would like. But once you are 99 with the best gear, what is there to do? Then go admire the beautiful atmospheres of the areas you skipped over or have never even been to? I know every inch and centimeter of all zones just before the last two expansions because I ran them, I leveled there, I died there, I did quest/missions there, I had fun there. Oh well.. Like Alhanelem says- get over it or enjoy it :)

*Liked* all your replies, thanks for your kind and respectful answers

I've been saying this for a year+. This is a large issue for the Japanese population as well. Leveling in FFXI currently is so fast that it currently means nothing. Like you said, you might as well have players start at level 99. Heck, I'd be for that over a system that gives you the illusion of some form of progress by sitting and exploiting game mechanics all day.

But, yeah, that its what it has come down too. Your best bet is to start or to find a like minded LS. They are out there and they are growing in popularity as old players from that era are returning to the game.

"I think in order to fully enjoy (anything) in life, you have to experience multiple emotions- joy, sadness, anger, fear... Where is the sense of accomplishment if you didn't have to work for it?" - This... Matsui-san has said these near exact words. He also said this is the direction FFXI will be headed. More skill based and emersion and less mindless zerging. However he did not say yet (if he even plans to address) the current exp problem. His response on most balancing issues were that the "dev team are hard at work on the expansion". I assume now that the expansion is done, he will be getting back up to speed with the balance issues and exploits in the game.

As I have said before, in order to survive, FFXI needs to retain new players. Given the current system, the game critically fails at any newbee content. This leads to new players rushing to level 99 in a month trial of the game... not understanding anything whatsoever of party dynamics (because they just sit in a group and exploit GoV), and when they get to the top, they give up in frustration.

It is easy to see the game from a vet's eyes, but SE needs to see them from a new player's eyes as well. Speed leveling is just an EXCUSE to overlook a lack of meaningful, fun, mid-level content. Until they fix that, everyone and their grandma will say you need to get to level 99 first to have fun, and SE will gladly go along with it until they run out of disenchanted vets.

[Prrsha]

Can't edit post on my phone, but google Uthgard DAoC or EQ progression server for proof that it can be done. There is a niche demand for this that should not be written off.

Yup it could work. I can give you a list of about 30+ old friends (we have a large group on facebook) who would return to FFXI if the leveling rate was fixed. Granted 30 is a small number, but then again, I am just one person. Even if a person were to use a 1 to 1 ratio or say... 1 to .25 per active players... it's a large amount.


Luvbunny is completely right, don't really need Abyssea but that's just content that can be fun for a lot of people. Fun has a very wide definition. While you might find it fun to run around large areas exploring the land, someone else might find it fun in enclosed areas killing all the mobs and dislike exploration. Same goes for pretty much everything in game and reality. Fun can also be found in everything, it's kinda what a games for and the job for SE is to make a game that appeals to everyone or at least everyone in their target market. Being a final fantasy game, and an MMO, they do end up having a fairly large market, players which may come from number crunching MMO's etc and players that like tackling formulae to work out exactly what will happen next and to them that is fun. I think SE do a pretty decent job at making the game fun and granted when they go and produce new content it wont be fun to everyone because of what I said before, fun has a wide definition and is pretty much different for every single person, but they aren't removing old content and you can still make what you want out of the game. You can still find 5 other friends, and go make a lvl 55 exp party in Wajaom for example and it will be exactly the same as it was 6 years ago.

I'd like the idea of a voluntary level cap, so I and others can experience it again. Due to the exp spam, everyone is level 99 now in every job. :rolleyes:

[Prrsha]

You Karbuncle and Alhanlem with your 3000+ and 4000+ messages on these forums should really stop to post your opinions on everything that poping here, you always repeat the same thing tirelessly, you're always think you're right on everything and argue with other people that don't think like you as if you were at war, personaly I'm just tired of seeing you and I really think for most of the FFXI community you're just a curse who contribued to slowly kill this game and pull it down.

I agree with some of their logic at times but I really don't like their tact. Going postal at a new or returning player only hurts the existing player base... unless their intent is to cleanse the game of everyone who has an opinion that differs from their own. In my honest opinion I don't think it is their intention but it is have that effect.


The only thing I do miss is the conversations and laughter you had with complete strangers in an old pt. The book burns and aby burns nowadays mostly lack that making it somewhat hard to get to know other players, form lasting friendships and linkshells. I think that is the only thing good about the old leveling days.

The conversations and interactions are the backbone of what makes a MMORPG great or just a dud. This is the heart of a MMORPG. If I don't desire those, I just play one of many single RPGs out in the market, like the Elder scrolls series.

[Luvbunny]

And how would you suggest they fix "the fast race" to lvl 99? Making those people take six month to a year to level just one job - and thats not including fully meriting and all those fancy new WS. That would kill the game fast than you can rejoice. The "fostering skillful" team play seems to be geared toward end game content. Meeble Burrow, Legion and all the Neo-revival events are good example where you need to come up with a strategy. The exp outside abyssea is rather decent, and comparable when you factor in double xp ring and the boost from GoV. A decent party of 6 can level in some areas from 10-30s, move to another areas from 30s-90s without having to move (Crawler Nest, Gusgen is great example), from 60s-80s (Boyahda, Kuftal).

The best action they can and should do is by instituting the new evaluation ways of getting rewards similar to campaign and reive and implement this in Abyssea. You get xp by dealing damage, curing, enfeebling and self buffing, taking damage, and it chains. This will kill the fell cleave party, destroyed all the leechers and afk people, and obliterate lvl 30 trying to key leech. Unless you can contribute, you are not getting much of xp.

[Karbuncle]

unless their intent is to cleanse the game of everyone who has an opinion that differs from their own.

Yes, This is it. You've discovered the Secret of operation Karbahelm.

On a serious note I thank you for the understanding when it comes to this, and that you can see what my intentions are... But i made this post already so darnit I'm posting it.

ANYWHO, I make dozens of posts that are intended to directly aidd new players, or players who just don't know everything they need to know and might really help them... Like countless informative posts, and the most recently the Reive thread... and do help them, so much so i occasionally receive kind words in game about it.

I make a rather Mild post and to some people this means I'm likely sitting behind my desk stroking a bald cat i named Spankwrustler plotting my next devious post to make some new player cut himself and quit FFXI because he had the balls to have a different opinion than me, let alone I've mentioned a dozen times opinions are amazing and i openly insist and encourage people give their opinions, even if that means being shot down, or being debated/Discussed.

Now, While i don't have the cat, i do have my dog every so often, but she just sleeps on my pillow over there.

Anyway, I've also mentioned several times i sometimes make rants generally not directed at any individual but more at the idea, since the idea is usually heard and repeated... For instance, this thread has come up about a million times, SO while i don't hate... whatever the name of the OP is... I do tend feel more passionately about my disagree-alness(thats a word now) with this idea than your average topic.

Honestly, it took me a good 10 minutes trying to type this post to sound entirely more joking and sarcastic rather than forcing and provocative, Since thats the point I'm trying to make. So I'm not attacking you friend. understand :D?

Plus, I fking love new players, they're usually the least thickheaded and more open to learning and improving since they're looking for the help... They're like my dream come true.

Either way, I wanna repeat luvBunny's post real quick and say...


And how would you suggest they fix "the fast race" to lvl 99? Making those people take six month to a year to level just one job - and thats not including fully meriting and all those fancy new WS. That would kill the game fast than you can rejoice.

More or less, returning exp to what it used to be wouldn't make smarter higher level players, cause most of them will already be 99, and you can bet not a single new player would stay with this game if it took them ~1month to hit max level, or way more like it did back when... not including merits, etc... They'd quite, as mentioned, faster than you could rejoice.

Now, If SE said "Making a Nostalgia server would be a matter of days in terms of work", I'd be on your side, Cause it would be nice to have you all bundled in one spot... no offense intended... But who would determine which level of Nostalgia should be included? Which updates should they exclude? it would be harder than it sounds lol.

[Luvbunny]

Just toss em all in one nostalgia server. Adjust it so that you only get xp in Abyssea based on your contribution, basically similar to Campaign, Besieged and Reive now. This will solve the leecher, afk, lvl 30 keyers, fell cleave problems that people have been complaining about. They can all have everything, just a minor fix in Abyssea would solve the leveling too fast problem. Because to actually get rewards and contribute, probably a minimum of lvl 75 is needed which will revitalize old camps - let them have a moogle bonus of double exp week lol, so if they choose they can speed up or not. With GoV you can easily make old school party very comparable to Abyssea. I will predict the return of GoV alliance instead of Abyssea. No one wants to take a year or two to reach lvl 99 the old ways. There is also camp congestion to deal with, and traveling to old school camp, which a lot of people rather not deal with. Not to mention the limited availability of tank, unless you want to make mnk, war, thf, sam, drg, blu, dancer and rdm to start tanking as well :)

[Candi]

Lol, you can read my post and offer crude criticism but you can't type my name which I know you've seen... I see your handle is Karbunkle- not because I agree with you or worship you but because I can read. It's obvious what you thought you did but you aren't as cunning as you think you are. If you can't acknowledge me as a person why acknowledge my thread? Next time you see a thread like this do yourself and the thread starter a favor and act like you can't read then- since you can't seem to control your emotions.

You aren't obligated to put tour stamp on everything here. Do you own the forums? Did you pee on it and think its yours? Does SE pay you to monitor this forums content? I'm sure many people thank you in forum and in game for your help but it appears to have gone to your head. Go on molding those new players you love so much. This thick headed OP isn't a lost sheep.

[Jaall]

So.... are you happy with the recent changes? Does not seem like everyone is thrilled with it - including you. Now you know what it feels like when you no longer able to enjoy the game with the jobs that you love. At least I can still go and play as Rdm or BLu, since the recent changes would favor those combo jobs. Just saying, stop being all so positive - start being critical if you want some changes to be made - maybe not going nerd rage and canceled your subscription hah hah hah.

I quit earlier in the week because of things I don't find fun anymore because of SE's stupid priorities not because of the recent changes. You're being way too critical, that's my issue with you, it's all fair trying to get SE to change a few things here and there but they aren't gonna re-write SoA and make it so that you don't have to hit roots. I personally don't really have a problem with the new expansion, it's just the idiotic attitude of SE that's driven me away and the fact that the game's slowly being run into the ground by it's own company rather than the competition. There are quite a few problems but I think the underlying problem is actually with how much they're just casually forgetting old issues and leaving them be, while using a somewhat cheat-fix which ends up not working and needing more and more fixes. SE should have worked on a proper hate formula rather than just increasing or decreasing cap for example.

Also half the reason I quit is because the reason I played in the first place was because I have a broken leg and have had for a year and a half, and very soon I'll be having surgery to reinforce the bone with metal, meaning I can get back to work and get my life back, so not entirely due to the game. Wasn't nerd rage either, I don't go in a rage when I post on here because seriously it isn't worth it, and anyone who does, that's just a tiny bit sad. I have strong words to say and like a good debate/argument, and if you think that's raging then you should actually see me rage!

And to everyone else, it's only a game. If you can't find most of it fun then why do you play? I know most of you do find it fun but there's no way SE is ever gonna properly listen to the community because if they did they'd be making changes literally every day. Also they've put a lot of work into this game since Abyssea so there's no way they're gonna undo a lot of the changes they've made. Making a separate server is kinda out of the question too seeing as FFXI has so many issues in game that they really need to focus on them than build a whole new server, establish where it is in update terms etc etc. Would be a nice idea to keep people happy but priorities just wont make it happen any time soon, as in the next year at least.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I never said they weren't but when someone forces their opinion on someone and starts judging everyone it becomes insulting and that I don't like at all. People all play for their own reasons and most reasons will be unique. This game is so vast that there are so many reasons to play it, so just accept that some people may even like to be playing in fear. A lot of people in this world absolutely love challenge, and love to get gear, even love to spam horrible content. What might seem horrible to you could be someone else's favourite content. FFXI will always be around but it won't be the same FFXI as we know and love, it will keep changing because when a game's 10 years old, that's what happens for it to survive. I hope you all find happiness in the game, but when you complain about either the game or the player base so much, it comes across as you completely hating it at which point it makes me think, why play at all?

[Luvbunny]

Nah, I am being very critical because they can do better, and have done better, so it's not like they cannot do it. It amazes me how people are so positive and defending crappy content in the hopes that it will get better. They even now admit it that there are a lot of things that did not go as planned, and a lot information not being released in the right way. Glad to hear you are getting better.

[Jaall]

They can do better and are doing better. Has it occurred to you that people are positive because they like this content? Has that actually crossed your mind, the fact that this content might actually be good for some people? There are things wrong with it like hate etc but none of it is to do with the content introduced. We are not asking for reives to become something different, but that just seems to be what you're asking for. You're just jumping on literally anything people complain about and try and make it a million times worse but that's not the way to go about it, and it just looks childish. SE aren't gonna fix their content any faster just cause everyone's always critical about it. If 1 or 2 people quit because of this it wont make much of a difference to SE and not very many people will quit because of this so it doesn't really effect them. People have been complaining very strongly for years and it hasn't got anywhere so instead of going mental over every complaint and escalating it to stupid levels I just say how I feel about it - reives are good content which can be fun when done right (when wrong that's the players fault not SE) however there are a few fixes that need to be made, and as said by SE they are in the process of balancing. The one thing I would happily be critical over is the fact the test server has been completely unused when it really should have been.

[Luvbunny]

Check the threads on reives and pretty much everything that are wrong about the last update, I don't think I am the only person here who is being very critical about this. Stop being a hypocrite, you yourself are hating the recent changes as well. Does SoA has promises? Potentially. But not if they are adopting WoTG methods of creating contents, which as it is now, every signs are pointing in that direction. The "We Love it Cuz it's so different and new" bandwagon crowd will stop salivating once they see not many doing this and progress is slow to a crawl until it just stop dead. Look at Campaign and WoE. No matter how many times they try to revive it, it's dead. And they just going on their merry ways disregarding player feedback on what could make it better.

[Prrsha]

And how would you suggest they fix "the fast race" to lvl 99? Making those people take six month to a year to level just one job

Slow down the rate of exp gain BUT add really fun and exciting content that you don't HAVE to be level 99 to do? All you have right now are Garrison, Expeditionary Forces and Eco-warrior for group events. And to be honest, you have to agree that they all suck compared to the current high level content.

If you give a player fun content from level 1-99, you won't have people wanting to get there so fast just to have "fun".

CoP was an event that lower level players could contribute to at lower levels (and could access easily) but when SE removed the level cap, the issue is moot now.

Some problems I expressed in the past (copied/pasted):

1) Another problem plaguing the game is the exploitation of EXP chains. They were designed to reward players who killed monsters, one at a time, but in quick succession. This was done through efficient fishing (pulling) tactics. This is aspect that I love about FFXI. Japanese parties did it very well.

I feel that killing large groups of monsters with a rapid use of WS AoEs or magic AoEs, reduces the skillful play style that the game should encourage. Getting 10 exp chains from 10 people using AoEs at once (in the span of 30 seconds) wasn't really how the system was intended to work. I'd like to see extra exp awarded through skillful game play then through repeated use of one simple tactic (AoE repeated use).

2) Abby needs to be restricted to level 75+. This would get rid of all the leechers there.

3) A voluntary level cap for CoP areas so new players (or vets who soloed it after the cap was lifted) can experience CoP the way it was designed to be. Like I said, the cap should be voluntary... maybe with some nice trinkets for those who completed it the "hard" way.

4) [sic](in relation to gear vs levels)....Well said. I think the matter at hand is to examine why. Both are progress, both make you more powerful. I think herein lies the answer. The gap. The inability of lower level players able to play with higher ones. Why? Level synch is still there... I think the problem is inherent in the system that enables you to group up with others. I really hope SE sees that the game needs a massive overhaul to its user interface. There should be little to no work in finding a party. It's a simple as that. The clunky old LFP system was a MAJOR complaint the entire length of the of the lifetime of this game and it has not been addressed. The only thing that was added was a little hard to find "comment" area to a player's name on the server list.

What the game needs is an overhauled GUI (like I said many times before) that makes it as easy as point and click, to find players to do the SAME quest with or level with. This feature should not be an inactive/active one but ALWAYS active. A player should always see 24/7 a list of quests I am on (and I am flagging that I need help with). It should always be active and not have to be reset when I log back on. It would allow players to click on their quest they are on, click on "Look for members needing help" and POOF. A list of players should appear. They should be able to click on a player and engage in a /tell. There should also be an option to go /anon so one is not spammed if they are doing something important that needs concentration.

Why oh why was this not added YEARS ago is beyond me. Instead of fixing the problem, they decide that exp is broken and they eliminate the exp ladder (and group events for lower level players... and a vast amount of content) almost altogether. This was the #1 reason why people left the game, it was the #1 reason why people complain about "leveling in the old days". This is why to some, gaining exp was fun, to others a big hassle. I never had problems finding a party, I made one. Maybe this is one reason why I found those good ol' days fun and not others?

[Karbuncle]

OFFENDED

I had some huge post trying to explain why you're misunderstanding my post, but honestly, I've decided its simply not worth trying to explain this to you, Because no matter how i make a post, you seem very hellbent to take offense to it no matter what.

Just two things before I let you get back to derailing your thread.

1) I wasn't talking or directing anything in my post at you, not even the last sentence. I forgot your name, and didnt feel like stopping to type mid-post to go find it.

2) Please, Stop taking offense to everything I say, stop trying to score cool kid points by acting tough to someone by repeating things to them they've already admitted, because its very hypocritical of you. If you're going to point out my flaws after i already did, have the dignity and respect to acknowledge your own shortcomings.

responding to a post wrongfully accusing me of something i haven't done isn't the same as caring enough to try and insult you whenever i can. I'm not so petty. So please, stop thinking that every post i make has hidden sprinkles of insults directed at you. they don't. To say it nicely, Candi, You're not so deeply in my mind that I'm trying to poke fun at you whenever i can to get under your skin.

[Luvbunny]

Slow down the rate of exp gain BUT add really fun and exciting content that you don't HAVE to be level 99 to do? All you have right now are Garrison, Expeditionary Forces and Eco-warrior for group events. And to be honest, you have to agree that they all suck compared to the current high level content.

Moblin Maze and Assault, if only they got smart and lift up the stupid boneheaded backward tag limitation. If people can spam this old musty outdated content over and over to XP instead the moronic GoV, they will do it in a heartbeat. Triple the xp reward or something. I think everyone will prefer to do "activities" with objectives that gives them good rewards or xp rather than running around AFK.

[Yinnyth]

The game is still the game. Just because it is no longer centered around grinding exp all the time doesn't mean it's any worse for the wear. There are plenty of fun things to do with a large variety of people. Some you'll hate, some you'll like. It's just like when we were all racing to max out our level, we're just racing to max out our gear now instead.

[Emilja]

I miss Valkurm Dunes pt's :(

This game is all about wasting time and helping eatch other, sadly ppl not into helping anymore.

[Jaall]

Check the threads on reives and pretty much everything that are wrong about the last update, I don't think I am the only person here who is being very critical about this. Stop being a hypocrite, you yourself are hating the recent changes as well. Does SoA has promises? Potentially. But not if they are adopting WoTG methods of creating contents, which as it is now, every signs are pointing in that direction. The "We Love it Cuz it's so different and new" bandwagon crowd will stop salivating once they see not many doing this and progress is slow to a crawl until it just stop dead. Look at Campaign and WoE. No matter how many times they try to revive it, it's dead. And they just going on their merry ways disregarding player feedback on what could make it better.

You're not even worth my time tbh. I'm not a hypocrite because I like the expansion, the reason I'm annoyed with SE and yes I am annoyed, is because they're putting the newly released expansion above too many other fixes but I have nothing against SoA at all. Please take the effort to read my posts if you're gonna continue to call me a hypocrite, I'd like to see a quote of something I said that was hypocritical. You're not as critical as a lot of people here but you're very childish and just jumping on what everyone else is saying and blowing it to extreme proportions, like saying "don't buy the expansion for a year or 2 and give them chance to fix it". I think people have their own mind don't you? Personally every person I've spoken to in-game was overall satisfied with the expansion and if they weren't they just didn't play it. Nobody mouthed off about how it was completely s**t and SE aren't doing anything about it, and that nobody should ever buy it! You're just a child and obviously think that this level of criticism will work but, as you'll see, SE really couldn't care less and are doing it in their own time because producing and maintaining a game is a lot harder than you blatantly think. As I said, I quit the game because of SE's lack of awareness with the issues pre-SoA. I feel very sorry for all of you who are that unhappy but too addicted to quit.

[Elphy]

Sorry but I can't help but giggle and point out you started with this...


You're not even worth my time tbh.

and followed that up with this...


I'm not a hypocrite because I like the expansion, the reason I'm annoyed with SE and yes I am annoyed, is because they're putting the newly released expansion above too many other fixes but I have nothing against SoA at all. Please take the effort to read my posts if you're gonna continue to call me a hypocrite, I'd like to see a quote of something I said that was hypocritical. You're not as critical as a lot of people here but you're very childish and just jumping on what everyone else is saying and blowing it to extreme proportions, like saying "don't buy the expansion for a year or 2 and give them chance to fix it". I think people have their own mind don't you? Personally every person I've spoken to in-game was overall satisfied with the expansion and if they weren't they just didn't play it. Nobody mouthed off about how it was completely s**t and SE aren't doing anything about it, and that nobody should ever buy it! You're just a child and obviously think that this level of criticism will work but, as you'll see, SE really couldn't care less and are doing it in their own time because producing and maintaining a game is a lot harder than you blatantly think. As I said, I quit the game because of SE's lack of awareness with the issues pre-SoA. I feel very sorry for all of you who are that unhappy but too addicted to quit.

:D

[Jaall]

Was my last post on the subject that was my point lol, wanted to defend myself so I did.

[Ravenmore]

Some people didn't even read what I wrote but commented anyway...

Because you're far from the first to say the exact same thing, get over your self.

[Yinnyth]

I miss Valkurm Dunes pt's :(

This game is all about wasting time and helping eatch other, sadly ppl not into helping anymore.

They're about the same they always were. How many people who didn't need the exp would help you get your exp in the dunes? While it's true the population was larger back then so the actual number of helpful people was larger, the overall percentage remains roughly the same.

[Luvbunny]

Well, it's double exp weekend!! That means it is time to shout out there and grab a bunch of people to do "old school" party. Which means, you can see why old school is totally broken right now. Staying in one spot for 60-90 mnts max then have to move again is not bad idea in paper - but having to rebuild party whenever someone quits after 90 mnts sucks if you wanna keep it old school. Not to mention the mob does not stay Even Match - Very Tough for a very long time. Old school today is like 3 people set up, with whatever jobs combo you want to come as and nearly naked or outdated gears, killing easy prey - decent challenge everywhere and get 6-10 levels in one area.

[Volkai]

Okay, I'ma jump in here just long enough to say: double XP, Phoenix server, Prrsha, get your butt out to Dunes or Qufim and toss me a PT invite before JP midnight strikes!
(This applies to all other Phoenix folks as well.)

As for the rest: I think this thread has wandered far afield from the subject of OP.