New weapons with higher base damage then relics

[Zumi]

The game has pretty much changed to a more item level vertical progression focused. We already know R/M/E adjustments are coming sometime after the August update but it doesn't have a set date.

Personally I don't really have too many issues with the game and r/m/e anymore.

[Zagen]

There's more to Relics (as well as Emps and Mythics) than the base damage.

[katiekat]

no soner or later people with relics need to realis they cant always have the best weapon in the game

[Xecil]

It's okay. They are adding on another way to modify Relics, etc. Now for the everyday low price of 1500 Umbral Marrows. 2000 if you want Ragnarok.

[Zumi]

I figured they have the new ultimate weapon but later down the road you know like after all the missions are out and you beat the storyline, and they have a quest that makes you do a bunch of crazy stuff for the new ultra relic or whatever, but relics/empyrean shouldn't be having their base damage beat at the start of the expansion, by non relic class weapons.

It cost a crazy amount of gil to 99 a relic or empyrean.

[Xecil]

It is unknown as to how we obtain those weapons with higher base damage. For all we know, they could require a nasty grind to get as well. Only time will tell. I do know that it would help if we could at least access Adoulin though.

[Karbuncle]

They drop from the Nak-Bosses. This information was already given to us.

[Xecil]

Ah... Well in any case, it will work itself out. Squeenix knows what they are doing. Remember, Mythic weapons are the easier alternative to Relics... Oh.

[Zumi]

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ee8lmu.png

Surpasses 99 relic by a lot, people spent millions on them lol

[Luvbunny]

LMAO it didnt take very long for this thread to pop, burn people burn!! Enjoy the new expansion and the progression gears that could render everything else before totally useless and moot. In which case, why bother doing the abyssea and voidwatch tier if you can just spam bayld to get the starter gear for Adoulin - which apparently already has better stats than some of these Voidwatch gears that used to cost millions in AH. It's the death of abyssea perle and pink gears lol.

So is this mean those pulse cell is going to drop fast - price wise? As well as those dyna currency? I mean why bother farming and spending gill if a better weapon just around the corner? Is this means the death of dynamis and neo salvage?

[Zumi]

My marrows aren't selling now lol

[Karbuncle]

I think the R/M/E Market is going to slow to a crawl right now because people don't know where SE's going with this.

Are they going to buff R/M/E? Are these weapons super hard to get with "Fiat Lux" like requirements? Are these weapons riddled with hidden Side-effects? So on, So forth... A lot of uncertainty.

But regardless of this, Heavy Metal Plates, Riftshit, and Currency is definitely going to take a substantial hit in sales until more information is known. That i have absolutely no doubt of.

[Luvbunny]

It may potentially hit very hard those neo events, voidwatch, legion, and meeble since people may feel there is no reason to even do these anymore, or invest time. I can see those prices for pulse cells gears and weapon dropping within a few months or even weeks once people discover how to get newer gears. Game changer indeed lol -probably not in a good way if they are taking the WoW direction - where each expansion render previous gears useless.

[JiltedValkyrie]

My marrows aren't selling now lol

Come to my server and sell them to me for 1 mil each. I need a 99 relic. :P

[Zumi]

It may potentially hit very hard those neo events, voidwatch, legion, and meeble since people may feel there is no reason to even do these anymore, or invest time. I can see those prices for pulse cells gears and weapon dropping within a few months or even weeks once people discover how to get newer gears. Game changer indeed lol -probably not in a good way if they are taking the WoW direction - where each expansion render previous gears useless.

The WoW route is kinda annoying how all your gear gets obsoleted every expansion. I see why they do it though to get people to work toward getting new better gear to give them a reason to play. SE already did it once, our salvage and king gear was obsoleted pretty fast by some easy to get abyssea AF3 gear.

But the FFXI playerbase loves their r/e/m weapons and probably wouldn't be that happy about them getting outdated so fast. These cost us over 100m gil.

[Karbuncle]

Also i can say it works for WoW cause thats the status quot, its what they expect and know will happen... Plus they have way more players and they're addicted as hell to WoW and wouldn't stop playing/paying if WoW execs kicked them in the d*ck every time they logged in or out.

[Luvbunny]

Well this won't bode well, first those R/M/E will get burned, then Voidwatch, Neo-Anything, and Meeble will be abandoned in droves. And at the same time, geode prices could plummet since apart from a few weapons (for pet at least) - you probably will get a better STR sword, dagger, etc lol. Or you make one and have it off-hand, hopefully. God forbid they will make one staff that has avatar perp-10 on ALL avatar and casting time -10 on ALL of them and risk the wrath of all those who made their individual staves. And goes after those BLM staves as well.... Let's hope not.

[Nidhogg]

I don't care if my 99 Amanomurakumo/99 Aegis gets replaced, or if my future Kogarasumaru becomes something that isn't as amazing as the next superb thing they release, give me something new to work to rather going back to the old content that I see as boring because I've been doing it since its release.

When its all said and done, you still have your weapon, its a trophy, something you can show off your hard work that you put into obtain, you can still use it as well if you so wish to and that's how you should see it, they are all trophy weapons that you went out to achieve because you wanted them so badly. I don't see the claustrum community complaining about a set of Lv.51 staves that are far better than it.

[Zhronne]

-probably not in a good way if they are taking the WoW direction - where each expansion render previous gears useless.
That's not a "direction", it's just a different game model which is also used by the majority of games.
WoW is a structured game with tiered content and a clear one-way progression.
Each patch releases a new tier of content and from that moment onwards people will focus on that content, which will be really hard, and nobody will care for the old one if not for achievements (I'm simplifying of course).

In FFXI you don't have such a concentrated model but a spread one. Each patch releases a new kind of event which gives you something new to do, that is completely different from the past but it doesn't made past stuff useless. It's usually smaller content and each one is different from the others.
Another big difference is in the gear paradigm. In FFXI you can swap gear and you have a single character for multiple jobs. You are supposed to be able to have a lot of gear for very specific uses to swap according to the situation, the ability used, the target you're fighting and the job you're currently playing us.
This model is what kept FFXI alive so far.
In WoW you don't have gear swaps, you only have all-purpose gear, and aside from certain exceptions and personal choices based on your playstyle/talentbuild, each new item is more powerful than the old one and you don't really have many doubts, aside from the tier set bonuses and stats balancement.


Really, you can't compare the two and SE clearly has no intention to change toward such a model because they're well aware it just wouldn't work in FFXI.

[Jaall]

WoW is a lot easier than FFXI so that play style and game model works very well, whereas FFXI is significantly harder. Not so much harder post-abyssea but it looks to be getting back to that sense of challenge with the introduction of new HNM's (has been a very long time since we've really had any tbh). In WoW you can do what is basically the equivalent of 15 old NI floors in a 30 min limit and get say, 1/10th of your way towards a new piece of gear of your choice - essentially getting a gold astrarium for clearing 30 floors in classic NI without any limit on how many times you do it in a day. This works for a lot of MMO's and personally I find it too easy but releasing a whole new gear set is the only way to keep players interested as they can't recycle old content when it's spammed as much as it is.

Instead of this, FFXI makes harder content that can only be repeated a set amount of times per day or week and slowly give the rewards, but at the same time they rarely outdate equipment and make it obsolete so the content lasts forever. However, since Abyssea they seem to have changed their model somewhat and outdated 98% of 75 equipment and weapons leaving a lot of people angry based on the difficulty and time needed to obtain the 75 gear. Most people forgave SE and continued playing mostly because Abyssea was a huge success for the game in that it successfully revolutionised the game to a state where people can do insane dmg (compared to 75) and attack a lot faster. Basically the game became a lot more fun in the fact that you didn't have to watch the character standing still for 6-10 seconds before they attacked anything and when they did attack, the numbers were nice to see.

This time however, they've made the assumption that they can do exactly the same and make items obsolete yet again, but without the game changing expansion. SoA is no Abyssea, and never will be. I like the expansion as an extra activity but in no way is it good enough to warrant destroying the hard work people have put in all over again. Even with the future ideas with SoA there is nothing there that will put players at ease about making R/E/M useless (weapons are considered useless if another is better, no matter what to most people). Relics etc are trophies but really it's a game where people put that effort in to get something back, and most people do it for the capabilities of the weapon. The fact that R/E/M being made obsolete hit the community so hard even when Abyssea was involved kinda shows that no matter what, if they do this, they are completely going against the majority of the community.

I personally don't think I'll be playing much longer if this is the kind of random changes that will be made in the game. It's bad enough that there are so many issue never fixed but always known about, and it takes so much time just waiting on SE to acknowledge the major flaws. Even if SE do buff R/E/M weapons, it will probably take years for them to get round to it in which time it'll be pointless anyway. Sorry for the rant but I seriously think this is the last straw for me personally and probably a few other people. Also on a side note, people who say relics are easy, they still take a significant amount of time - 2 months of dyna 2 hours everyday - and believe me, while that's "easy", it is the most boring, annoying and frustrating thing when you have to do it all that time. Most players don't get that much time to play so 2 hours taken up by that isn't really considered easy.

[Zhronne]

WoW is a lot easier than FFXI so that play style and game model works very well
Uhm I'm afraid "easier" is not the good word here, altough I don't disagree.
WoW is rather more "accessible".
Many of the elements that make FFXI "difficult" are not really planned by developers, but they are the consequences of lacking features, bad UI or old game design.
WoW always allows you to play at your best, and getting solid world position (WoW is very competitive and close to an e-sport) on heroic fights is way more difficult than FFXI, trust me.
Of course WoW is also much easier than FFXI, at the same time, because even completely casual players who can't even press a key on their keyboard will find something to do (dailies, questing, LFD, LFR etc).

So saying that WoW is easier than FFXI is both right and wrong at the same time.

I've been playing FFXI since 2004 (took some breaks but never really stopped) and Played WoW since uhm 2005 or 2006 I think.
Anybody who has seriously played WoW at competitive levels will only confirm what I just said, the rest are just stereotypes.
Of course from a certain point of view WoW is much easier today than it was before (altough once again "more accessible" is a better definition than "easier"), but isn't the same true for FFXI?


Also, it would be wrong to say that WoW has less variety than FFXI only because the only real end-game content it offers are Raids, and each raid has a certain amount of bosses to kill.
That's a very wrong definition and you get that idea because you compare it to FFXI and you haven't played WoW thoroughfully.

Bosses in WoW are way more unique and different than they are in FFXI, and are absolutely not forgiving (talking about the "hard" ones of course, not the easymode ones). It's true that you "only" get raids, but each fight is so different and unique, just like every raid is so different from the others, that you can hardly say about doing the same thing over and over.

Personally I always liked and will always like more FFXI, but I feel the majority of FFXI players judge WoW without really knowing it, feeling "cool" because they play the indie/alternative MMO while 11 million of dumbfucks play the massmarket MMO.
Well, know that inside those 11 millions, altough they represent a seriously small percentage, there are several players whose skill are really insane and without which they would have never got where they did.
Those players and those theorycrafters have nothing to envy to the ones we get in FFXI, on BG etc.

[Jaall]

Sorry, I dunno if i came across wrong but I never said WoW had less variety. I'd actually go as far to say it has more variety than FFXI and yea WoW has some tough content but overall the majority of content is easier than the majority of FFXI. Obviously amounts have changed over time and both games have had changes although FFXI has had larger changes. Also I haven't played WoW for years so no idea of any recent changes as far as difficulty. The thing is though if you compare the difficulty of both games hardest content, FFXI wins by a relatively huge stretch, or at least used to with the introduction of pandemonium warden, and before that AV. What they introduce with this expansion could be a new PW or AV and to warrant such weapon drops I would hope so although I feel SE's direction has shifted, but I also feel that sticking to that difficulty level FFXI had over other MMO's was the only thing keeping it "alive".

[Zhronne]

I would call AV "retarded content" not "insanely difficult content", but I guess it all comes down to what you define good or bad according to your tastes.

I've met several people who play healer in FFXI and like the fact that you need to actually check the battle log instead of having an UI that tells you buffs and debuffs on each different character, while for me that's not even an intended way to raise difficulty, but rather a consequence of a very limited UI who was thought in 2001. It's not like you can't have that in WoW if you want (you can!) it's just that nobody does it because they have a better option and obviously everybody picks the better option.
In FFXI you have no options, usually. It's either that way or... no other way. So sometimes I get the feeling that people (myself included sometimes! Ironically lol) are kinda like the fox and the grape, without even being aware of it lol

So what can I say other than "to each his own"? ^^
Didn't mean to fight against you or your post btw, I just took the chance to "fight" against the stereotype that only dumb people play wow and that it's not difficult at all.
Heroic content WoW (or very very old wow) is very difficult and arguably more difficult than FFXI because its difficulty doesn't come from limits of UI, game mechanics, crappy servers, pure japanese random luck or any other "cheap" method like that, but just because they are "naturally" difficult in a very smart way.
Just my way of seeing things of course ;)

It's a pretty common stereotype among FFXI players who never played WoW and it always makes me laugh a little ^^'

[Jaall]

Yea don't worry lol I get that WoW isn't "easy" it's just different. What I really should have said is it's a lot more "casual" than FFXI instead of easy, I just used that word because it would be easy for me to play WoW for 1 hour a day and make progress, whereas you have to set aside at least a few hours on FFXI to see any real progress. To be fair though most of that is down to actually making a run happen, for example a successful NNI run can take only 30 mins but I've seen it take up to an hour to just set up the party! The one thing I really loved in WoW was the raid/dungeon finders, save so much time. As far as AV and PW goes they are insanely difficult but they are possible so I'd say it was still classed as a difficulty, and same goes with NNI etc but that's not as insane. The high difficulty was more prominent pre abyssea with HNM but SE have since lost most of what made the game hard by increasing the cap and not adding any equivalent content, although like I said, there's possibility for that to change with SoA.

[Afania]

no soner or later people with relics need to realis they cant always have the best weapon in the game

I'm not sure what's the mentality behind this post, it's either trolling or not really thinking.

If new higher base dmg weapon is easier to obtain than R/E/M, anyone with R/E/M can obtain new higher base dmg weapon . They CAN have best weapon in this game still, even if it's no longer R/E/M. You honestly think obtaining new ex/rare will be a problem for ppl with all the best gears?

Except when their hard earned R/E/M, which often takes months or years to obtain, is no longer useful because another weapon beats it, it's like a slap in the face and just asking players to rage quit and nothing more.

For anyone with no R/E/M, once all the R/E/M owner rage quit, let's see whether we still have enough player base in this game to keep content going w

If new ex/rare is harder to obtain than R/E/M, then none R/E/M owners most likely won't be able to obtain it too.

Either way, I don't see how it benefits this game, more like killing this game faster.

[Concerned4FFxi]

LMAO it didnt take very long for this thread to pop, burn people burn!! Enjoy the new expansion and the progression gears that could render everything else before totally useless and moot. In which case, why bother doing the abyssea and voidwatch tier if you can just spam bayld to get the starter gear for Adoulin - which apparently already has better stats than some of these Voidwatch gears that used to cost millions in AH. It's the death of abyssea perle and pink gears lol.

So is this mean those pulse cell is going to drop fast - price wise? As well as those dyna currency? I mean why bother farming and spending gill if a better weapon just around the corner? Is this means the death of dynamis and neo salvage?

I agree. real fast way to make people already playing for years, quickly abandon the game. I thought exactly this. I have no problem with new gear being better, provided it is more difficult to obtain. The producer just shortened the life span of this game by years. I played ffxi because it isn't WOW, but this makes it just like WOW. And by WOW I mean other mmo's, not WOW in particuliar.

Take DC Universe, cool game. My buddy offered to get me in, after running with him for month I can have all the best gear in the game, my stats would be low but I'd be fully decked out. If your fully decked out, theres nothing to do but help others, socialize, etc, it removes most of the game's content to quickly. Guess what, I never picked him up on his offer, exactly because of that reason. I never played it with him because it would have been over almost as soon as I started played.

[Concerned4FFxi]

It may potentially hit very hard those neo events, voidwatch, legion, and meeble since people may feel there is no reason to even do these anymore, or invest time. I can see those prices for pulse cells gears and weapon dropping within a few months or even weeks once people discover how to get newer gears. Game changer indeed lol -probably not in a good way if they are taking the WoW direction - where each expansion render previous gears useless.
agreed

Attention SE:
Pop your head in on a server, you'll see VW, Legion, einherjar, and other events as well as new content being played. If the new stuff is as easy as abyssea gear is (and it seems that way to me), this will cause the same doom that the previous director citied about abyssea unbalancing the game. remember 75% of the zones in the game stopped being used, lets not do that again...

[Demon6324236]

remember 75% of the zones in the game stopped being used, lets not do that again...People often seem to forget that at the same time Abyssea hit, so did the rise of the level cap, which meant only Abyssea had gear for higher level characters, where as everything else was lower leveled, on top of that Emp gear came out which was not to hard to get and crushed all other options around basically. Adoulin by compare is not the only source of level 99 gear, is not accompanied with a level cap adjustment, or features gear which is nearly as groundbreaking except in the weapons department, of which we believe are from the HNMs and could be as common as Dring was back in the old days, which was rare to say the least. What I am trying to say is that it is quite different, Abyssea drew people to it in a few different ways, where as Adoulin has very little of that, the most apparent thing Adoulin has that Abyssea did is the gear is quite good, but all of the actual armor is WS gear, nothing to revolutionary like Abyssea's gear was, and all of the good weapons are from the HNMs.

[Concerned4FFxi]

People often seem to forget that at the same time Abyssea hit, so did the rise of the level cap, which meant only Abyssea had gear for higher level characters, where as everything else was lower leveled, on top of that Emp gear came out which was not to hard to get and crushed all other options around basically. Adoulin by compare is not the only source of level 99 gear, is not accompanied with a level cap adjustment, or features gear which is nearly as groundbreaking except in the weapons department, of which we believe are from the HNMs and could be as common as Dring was back in the old days, which was rare to say the least. What I am trying to say is that it is quite different, Abyssea drew people to it in a few different ways, where as Adoulin has very little of that, the most apparent thing Adoulin has that Abyssea did is the gear is quite good, but all of the actual armor is WS gear, nothing to revolutionary like Abyssea's gear was, and all of the good weapons are from the HNMs.

I pray you are right about the weapons, but it's still a slap in the face to anyone who made a 99 r/m/e

[Demon6324236]

Depends on the weapon, the only ones I see are really effected are the H2H and Dagger wielders of the game. I know that is a lot of people, but I just mean to say that there is no amazing Great Axe, Great Sword, Scythe, Sword, Great Katana, or a few others, all of which have not had their REM surpassed. Others like Polearm I am not sure of, though I would think Herja is not to much worse than that Polearm which was just released. I do agree though, they need to do something about them, especially the ones which have been beaten by these so drastically.

[Taint2]

WTF at this thread. SE already said they will be buffing REM to compensate for the new weapons.

[Camiie]

I suppose I have no right to complain seeing as I only have 2 90 emps and a barely started relic, but it's still a bit frustrating. Rather than hope for brighter things to come, I kinda just have remorse. I wouldn't have as much if they were just item drops and didn't require the largely selfless efforts of my friends over a long period of time to make.

I know, I know many of you are laughing that someone might equate a 90 emp with time and effort, but it felt like a serious undertaking to me. If I'd known they were going to be phased out this way I seriously doubt I would ever have bothered. Not that the devs care. They're just glad to get their $14 a month, and they're obviously under no obligation to keep any item relevant into perpetuity. Still, as I said it's not a great feeling. It's not the end of the world, but it's not happy fun time either.

Is there a point to this post other than me venting? Eh, I'll just file it under feedback from a player who's not at the top of the gear food chain. A middle-of-the-road player's perspective. That's gotta count for something to an especially bored community rep or dev right? Maybe?

[Demon6324236]

WTF at this thread. SE already said they will be buffing REM to compensate for the new weapons.SE's buffs are often questionable, right now MNKs are looking at a weapon which has about 1.5 times the damage of their 99 Relic, their old best weapon, and has DEX on it even to go with the WS of choice with it equipped. If your weapon was recently outdone, its safe to say that this is a cause for concern, and until we know exactly what is being done with Emp/Relic weapons I think its a good idea to be on edge about it.

[Oakrest]

WTF at this thread. SE already said they will be buffing REM to compensate for the new weapons.

Where? I suspect you're right - I mean, they did that with 75 Relic/Mythic when ToM and Empy were announced - but it would be reassuring to know.

Whatever they release should be a slightly weaker sidegrade at best (after they let us augment 99 Relics, for example). There's no way I'm going to enjoy playing this game if my Relics are outright replaced, I expect I should be able to keep upgrading them after the countless hours of hard work put in already - there's no other item to compare [R/M/E] to. For example, AF3+2 getting replaced by Phorcy's gear pales in comparison and is less hurtful when it comes in new content (again, just an example). Or for example, I spent many camps trying to a Joyeuse back in the day, and on the occasion I did, I camped for roughly 7 hours waiting for it to pop. An accomplishment, but I still don't mind that newer swords replaced that. There's a huge difference between most everything in this game, and the work required for an R/M/E.

[Karbuncle]

Their wording was something like

"We have plans to make sure your relics/etc you've taken to 99 wont go to waste".

They said nothing about buffing them, for all we know owning the 99 R/M/E could just mean they'll give you a quest to unlock their weaponskill or allow you to use them in your offhand. (though the WS thing makes little sense for Mythic). Either way, They said nothing of buffs, simply those weapons "Wouldn't go to waste", which sounds more like an afterthought or "They won't be completely useless, we promise!".

They also specifically said they would not improve them through trial of magians or any other means, which means their only options are a flat out buff too 99 R/M/E or... Prepare to use them in a quest to unlock their Ws's broseph.

[Demon6324236]

Prepare to use them in a quest to unlock their Ws's broseph.I would be somewhat happier with this, I mean CDC with Excalibur for RDM would actually be badass, same with a few other weapons using their WSs, like new H2H using VS.

[Karbuncle]

I can't say I wouldn't be okay with it... Cause I'd be able to unlock Mercy whenever the FK i wanted to use it, But It would be a sad resting place for a 99 Empyrean or Relic lol, and a poor replacement :(

Still look forward to seeing what they have planned, but the wording they used... Let just say I won't be holding my breath lol

[Cowardlybabooon]

I know I plan to finish my 99 upgrade. Apoc will always be useful in some way, but also I have confidence that SE will eventually make appropriate adjustments even if it takes a year.

[Dantedmc]

WTF at this thread. SE already said they will be buffing REM to compensate for the new weapons.

something something cait sith...

[Demon6324236]

I can't say I wouldn't be okay with it... Cause I'd be able to unlock Mercy whenever the FK i wanted to use it, But It would be a sad resting place for a 99 Empyrean or Relic lol, and a poor replacement :(Ill admit I'm only ok with that kind of idea because my only Emps or Relics are for my RDM, my Excalibur and my Almace, and when I get off my lazy ass to do it, Mandau. None of these 3 have been outdone for RDM by this update, so all of my weapons are still of use, I would just get a better WS for Excalibur out of it is all, for other jobs I admit I can see why they would be upset, other than perhaps MNKs just because their DPS would fly.

[Bahamut]

Just have relics tradable into an egg buffet, or a wall trophy, thatll make these people happy. They should have a house furnishing that they can be proud of to help them move onto new content finally and forget about the past.

[Luvbunny]

I know I plan to finish my 99 upgrade. Apoc will always be useful in some way, but also I have confidence that SE will eventually make appropriate adjustments even if it takes a year.

As long as you keep paying those monthly bills, they keep promising something will be done, well, something, not sure when yet, just keep on paying, maybe in 2016, but it will get done, we promise!!

[Areayea]

i was shocked when they did the +ws % damage on the relics/mythics, they'll probably do something else later... 2 things;

1. they might make OTHER weapons with better damage, but dont forget a lot of your dps/damage in general is from ws/other abilities on the e/m/r; further more I did read someone say they did the SMN trial staves... I have to put this out there like a commercial in old timey movie DON"T MAKE THOSE STUPID STAVES GET GOOD GEAR AND A CHATOYANT STAFF (use all that time to get gil for it); or get a nirvana since it'll make your merit bps go crazy good dmg and will give you just as much for all your avatars; or use that time invested to make the blm trial staves... since the smn ones aren't that great... anyway like said have to get that across... but as for my second point...

2. LUVBUNNY WHY DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME you seem very dissatisfied with SE, so why are you still padding their paycheck, I'm not going to apologize/condensed with that statement; your negativity annoys me, I'm fine with the game and acknowledge that they are paying more attention to the game these days then they did 2 years ago... anyway chick if you don't like the way it's run just quit and leave those of us who want to enjoy the game alone... not to be mean, just being honest, why invest time in something you don't enjoy.

[Zhronne]

WTF at this thread. SE already said they will be buffing REM to compensate for the new weapons.
They said they won't buff the base damage but they have other forms of buffing in mind.
I fail to see how any form of buff could compensate the difference in damage there is between, say, a Spharai99/Verethragna99 and Tlapolani.

Also, only the 99 versions will of course be "fixed", which means people who are stuck with a 95 relic or a 90 Empy will get kinda kicked in the ass, and I'm afraid they're the majority here.
Maybe it's just because they're the majority that SE wants to this, maybe they want to do something about the fact that due to some of their planning mistakes waaaaay too many people ended up with a relic/empy, and now they're not "cool weapons" anymore, but something that feels kinda mandatory.


Maybe they're right and in the end they'll manage to do something good in the long run, but atm I'm still a bit sad.
It's very irritating and frustrating when you spent a lot of time/work with something and you feel all your efforts go in vain and have been for nothing.

[Zhronne]

Their wording was something like

"We have plans to make sure your relics/etc you've taken to 99 wont go to waste".

They said nothing about buffing them, for all we know owning the 99 R/M/E could just mean they'll give you a quest to unlock their weaponskill or allow you to use them in your offhand. (though the WS thing makes little sense for Mythic). Either way, They said nothing of buffs, simply those weapons "Wouldn't go to waste", which sounds more like an afterthought or "They won't be completely useless, we promise!".

They also specifically said they would not improve them through trial of magians or any other means, which means their only options are a flat out buff too 99 R/M/E or... Prepare to use them in a quest to unlock their Ws's broseph.
Can't wait to use my Vere offhand.
Oh wait!! :P

They could also modify the way Aftermaths work, the way it doesn't get overwritten by same level aftermath, its lasting time, its proc chance, stuff like that.
But then again it's only things that are gonna happen for lv99 ones.

I wouldn't really mind bringing a second Empyreal to 99 but realistically I don't really have the resources to spend over 70 mils in Riftcinders and over 100 mils on Plates. It would kinda be like... one year of hard work for me.
Now if only they could increase the drop rate of HMP/Cinders just a little bit... :'(

[Kincard]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm waiting for Matsui's statement on what they plan doing with RME, but if they don't plan on doing this the right way I'm probably going to jump ship. I don't mind adding weapons into the game so that more casual players can play in content without needing to dedicate themselves to getting a ridiculously superior RME weapon, but this is a case of them adding something that completely crushes what was previously the best weapon. Not only does it screw over the RME users, it actually screws casual players too, because I doubt the people who were using Hoarfrosts Blade instead of Ragnarok or someone using Brawny Adargas instead of Spharai beforehand will have the resources to obtain a Naakual Weapon either. Nobody wins in this case- the RME owners lose their best weapon, and the casual players are stuck with weapons that are even worse than what is the best now.

It also indicates a MMO model that I'm simply not interested in. The reason I keep coming back to XI as opposed to other MMOs is because of the content's lastability. While it is true that many pieces are outdated with each patch, to this day there are many old pieces of gear that are still near top-tier if not the top-tier. It encourages you to explore the whole breadth of content rather than asking you to bumrush and bypass all the old content just so you can grind the newer content. This is a model used by other MMOs such as WoW, and while I don't have anything against people that enjoy this model, if I wanted to play an MMO with that model there are many, many games vast superior to XI in terms of mechanics and especially customer service that offer such a model.

I fully expect the sycophants to start flooding in and telling me to get out of the game now, because a forum used to collect feedback clearly isn't the place to have any sort of actual discussion about the game.

[Zhronne]

I don't agree with the "if you don't do things my way I'm gonna quit" attitude, but I kinda agree with everything else you said.
One of the reasons why I still love FFXI to this day it's because of its peculiar model, so different from all other MMORPGs.
Not saying the other models are bad, just that I personally like this one more.

[Kincard]

I don't agree with the "if you don't do things my way I'm gonna quit" attitude

Technically that's the attitude everyone has. If the game stops being fun for you, you quit. That's just the way it is. It's just a game, after all. It's only annoying if someone acts like a drama queen about it which is something I try to avoid.

[Camiie]

For people saying "Well it's how WoW does it with their Legendaries," a Legendary in WoW isn't the same sort of time commitment as even an empyrean is. Maybe some of the easier empy paths are roughly equivalent. There's no history of Blizzard trying to keep Legendaries relevant after the release of new content. On top of that, they're implemented very late in an expansion's release cycle. WoW players know what they're getting into when they make one.

[Zhronne]

Well... Thunderfury and Atiesh back in vanilla wow weren't particularly easy to obtain tbh :D But if we're talking about the last years you're right.
Thunderfury might be the exception here, people used it up until Black Temple and Blizzard actually had to NERF IT because of how good it was lolol
And atiesh is very very rare and still a cool way to teleport to Karazhan I guess ^^

And yes, tipically each expansion has approximately 3 big tiers. They usually add the legendary sometimes during the second tier, slightly update it on the third, on which they release a second legendary.
That has been more or less their model for the last 3 expansions. Uhm... Well, not in Mists of Pandaria, no legendary weapon in Throne of Thunder as far as I can remember, only legendary meta gems but those are another sort of thing lol

[Sambb]

I will not lie and say I am not mad about these new weapons coming in. I feel sorry the most for mythic holders, now while alot of mythics are situational ie yagrush (which btw is never going to be replaced its unique) I am making my coments more around the koga sams KKK pups Ryo drgs and so forth.

These weapons have taken people years to obtain YEARS. Now while relics NOW don't take years they once did. In the current climate relics still can take considerable time to invest in. If your solo probably 3+ months just to get to lvl 75 version.

As a relic holder my aegis isnt exactly goin any where, but I do fear for my ragnarok.

Also it isnt exactly easy to 99 your empy either.

Most people laughing going boohooo sad relic pandas need to just zip it because 99% of you probably don't even have one so of course your going to point and laugh but I can't help it if you either A) suck so bad you couldn't make one or B) suck so bad you couldn't even make one. Or for the other 1% C) just simply didnt want to make one.

IMO SE needs to tread very carefully on how they are adding in new weapons and what they are doing with the old ones. If they are not careful people might just quit.

If they don't want relics empys and dare I say mythics being top tier any more then they need to adjust the requirements of said weapons on how they are made. If your gunning for a mythic and it still takes 1-2-3yrs to build and its completely inferior your simply not going to do this. I am not sure if this is what SE wanted, but I really hope it isn't.

[Jaall]

I think SE have truly done themselves harm with this. Even if they improve R/E/M so that they're slightly better than standard drop weapons that wont be enough for most R/E/M owners. The thing that's so attractive about have one is the fact that they completely outclass every other weapon. If they make them only slightly better than the new weapons it'll be kinda like having a +1 version which considering the effort needed to get a R/E/M wont be enough to warrant getting one or owning one. I just don't see where SE can go with this, just another mistake out of many but they seem to be getting worse every time.

[saevel]

Ok ... you guys realize the newer weapons are not better then most of the current Mythics / Emps / Relics right? You don't make those weapons for the high base D you make them for their special effects.

Rag
+14% Crit Rate
occasionally does 2.5x damage

Mythic Polearm
Makes jumps crit
AM: attacks 2~3x, can proc on WS

Almace
CDC
AM: ODD

Vara
VS
AM: ODD

Spharai
+14% Counter rate
occasionally does 3.0x damage

Those are the real power behind those weapons and the entire reason their so awesome.

Mandau is still best main hand for THF. You still get MS, occasionally does 3.0x damage and attack +40.

[Miiyo]

No. They were weapons for level 75. They were expanded on out of courtesy for the time put into them. There is no effect on them that says "infinite changes to keep as #1." One day ffxi will end and all the work you put into your relic will be nothing but erased data and a memory. If you can't cope with that, don't spend years making one if you're mentally fragile to change. It's for precise posts such as this we get sidegrade after damn sidegrade. Let's just erase all gear except one set and one weapon, and just fight mobs for no rewards for the rest of our FFXI lives. That'll be fun!

[Dew]

Dunno why people getting upset about newer weapons being added that might be decent. I for one welcome the new weapons. Seeing people with the same weapons that were the "best" at 75 or other levels and still having the best after years kind defeats the purpose of mmo progression. I'll be glad when they add new weapons to rival R/E/M and open more options instead of one option that is the best. I'll gladly build the new types of weapons or obtain them. It's a mmo don't expect everything you got to stay the best forever.

[Jaall]

People who make relics, or at least most people, realise that FFXI will one day come to an end and that will be the end of it, but relics etc are declared some super weapons and as such given difficult tasks to obtain them. When you go through all that time and effort you don't expect them to be outclassed by anything especially in a game such as FFXI, and SE making that so by weapons that are essentially "easy to get" in comparison is a massive kick in the teeth to anyone who put the time in to make one. People can bare the fact that the game will end but SE is making that day a lot closer due to a lot of bad choices. Kinda makes you wonder if that is their overall plan.

If these weapons are easy to get and SE don't increase the usefulness of R/E and especially Mythic, I'm afraid a lot of people are gonna complain/quit which will look incredibly bad for SE and the future of FFXI. Yes you have new content but that content doesn't have to make the game too easy, the system worked fine before why can't it now? The only people jumping for joy here are the people who couldn't be assed to make a relic, but then if you don't put the effort in you surely don't deserve it? Relics etc are designed for hardcore players and ok, they may be easier to get now but then tell me, why don't you have one if they're easier?

[Oceanz]

Ok - make Relics/mythics/Empyreans obsolete. But just know that by doing so, you are eliminating 99% of the content players participate in, for the reasons they do it.

I sure hope Seekers of Adoulin has a lot of stuff to do to keep us busy. Because God knows none of us are going to continue spending hundreds of hours working towards weapons and gear that is crap.

GG SE.

Lets see this content that is going to replace what we currently do.


yeah... right lol...

[Areayea]

lol what I think is going to happen is SE is prolly going to release these naakuals and they are going to be like Cerb/Hydra/Khi/pw/av was back in the day... where they'll have a strong weapon hard to camp but they'll drop good BASE weapons... no aftermath, no OOD, no additional buffs to stats ect. which makes REMs better anyway; and we might end up getting additional fixes on the REM weapons anyway, not to mention maybe legendary weapons as our new REM, so it can be RELM XD but anyway we'll see I hope that this fixes it and gives other ppl options... lol anyway that's what I think

[scaevola]

I can't say I wouldn't be okay with it... Cause I'd be able to unlock Mercy whenever the FK i wanted to use it, But It would be a sad resting place for a 99 Empyrean or Relic lol, and a poor replacement :(

Still look forward to seeing what they have planned, but the wording they used... Let just say I won't be holding my breath lol

The only way this could possibly justify the time and expense of a 99 r/m/e is if the aftermaths come with it.

[SNK]

Guttler still wins over that new Axe. The high base DMG is nice but having 40 Attack with a pretty badass aftermath makes it superior to that new one.

The h2h yeah I know a few MNKs who are raging atm over it. lol

[Asymptotic]

Ok ... you guys realize the newer weapons are not better then most of the current Mythics / Emps / Relics right? You don't make those weapons for the high base D you make them for their special effects.

Rag
+14% Crit Rate
occasionally does 2.5x damage

Mythic Polearm
Makes jumps crit
AM: attacks 2~3x, can proc on WS

Almace
CDC
AM: ODD

Vara
VS
AM: ODD

Spharai
+14% Counter rate
occasionally does 3.0x damage

Those are the real power behind those weapons and the entire reason their so awesome.

Mandau is still best main hand for THF. You still get MS, occasionally does 3.0x damage and attack +40.

Actually, people made them because they had some of the highest base damage available on weapons of their type *and* had special effects. The new H2H absolutely invalidates Spharai, +14 to counter and the the hidden effect does not even come close to making up for it.

[scaevola]

This change makes me feel bad for pchan.

Let that sink in.

[Asymptotic]

Will be even funnier if MNK has no place in the Achuka fight.

No but, really. Even pchan doesn't have anything to worry about. They've essentially stated they will adjust RME weapons (they didn't directly state it but they imply it very hard when they go out of their way to assure that non-afterglow weapons will still be included and shield/horn etc. are excluded because they are still at the highest caliber).

SE has no interest in making RME99s obsolete as these are great timesinks and they can't introduce new content fast enough to replace these time-sinks.

[MarkovChain]

The only waySE would have been able to send player actually do the expansion was to give them reasons. The gear that got dat mined on the expansion's day mainly sucked or was side grade from abyssea/nyzul/salvage gear. The initial data on the weapon was also not enough because players quickly realised that the weapons were side grade to existing common endgame weapons (R/M/E). Like the H2H used to be 1% worse than spharai. So they decided to patch them so that people would actually move to the content, because let's be honest : GEO and RUN both suck, reive seem useless and for normal player there was no reason to go farm a legendary weapon when they could just farm a relic that is better anyway !

[MarkovChain]

This change makes me feel bad for pchan.

Let that sink in.

Don't be to jealous like half of BG. For me an afterglow is about the same work as getting a relic for the average dynamis soloer, so actually I don't care. I always find it hilarous when losers like you make fun of people with better gear "because they wasted so much money". I mean, it's almost as if the noobs are thinking that this weapon is going to be more accessible than a level 99 relic ?

[Elphy]

All I can say is that if they make these weapons relatively easy to obtain but still make things like riftcinders a major pita to get I can see alot of empys going missing and replaced by the new adoulin ones. No one wants to spam vw for a 5%-ish chance at a riftcinder or buy them for 1m gil each when they need 3060 of them just to make a weapon almost compare to an adoulin base weapon. Same goes for relics and mythics with their umbral marrow and mulcibar's scoria trials. Since we dont even know what kind of asinine quest they are going to give us to upgrade it again. I know I have all empys/relics on hold atm, except harp/horn (since I havent seen any instruments yet).

[Fatestaynight]

Most likely the relics and mythics will be enhanced with the augments from Adoulin, probably when we reach rank 9 or 10.

[Karbuncle]

Don't be to jealous like half of BG. For me an afterglow is about the same work as getting a relic for the average dynamis soloer, so actually I don't care. I always find it hilarous when losers like you make fun of people with better gear "because they wasted so much money". I mean, it's almost as if the noobs are thinking that this weapon is going to be more accessible than a level 99 relic ?

Pretty sure he wasn't belittling your achievement, and more actually saying "I kinda feel sorry for Pchan", and the "Let that sink in" part was in regards to the fact he's saying "These weapons are so powerful its actually making me feel bad for pchan or all people".

More of an insult to you and less of an insult to the work you put into the weapon.

[Losie]

Absolutely not. These silly items have held the game back for years and years now. That is not how online games work - you worked forever on relic, you did an awesome, long, grueling quest and got a neat item. Cool. Don't cry when something better and cooler gets put out. The dev team have had to tiptoe around relics for FAR too long, it is high time they stop having to balance everything below relics and be able to actually progress the game.

It's like in any other game - you spend a lot of time to get the greatest and coolest stuff, knowing well that it'll be outdated eventually. Expect it, understand the need for it, because without that there is no upwards growth or, if nothing else, it's stifled horribly because a few people are upset their achievement suddenly means "nothing." What it really means is they did a bunch of work and don't want to do more, they want their one cool item to remain the epitome of best indefinitely.

Unfortunately, that's a sad story. It's high time relics and such had some items that compare - and, besides, as pointed out.. quite a few relics are about anything but just the base damage, what with their remarkable and unique other abilities in many cases. But it's definitely very overdue to stop balancing the game against a handful of items released years ago. Time to move forwards.

[Losie]

Actually, people made them because they had some of the highest base damage available on weapons of their type *and* had special effects. The new H2H absolutely invalidates Spharai, +14 to counter and the the hidden effect does not even come close to making up for it.

Good. The damn relics have lorded over this game and put an arbitrary barrier on making new and exciting items for everyone in the game that doesn't want to relic grind. If you got your relic like some of us have, then awesome, great, cool beans buttered jeans. Now deal with the growth of the game, deal with it becoming outdated, and move on! There's so much "don't take my achievement away," but that's entirely the wrong mindset. When I played EQ you didn't whine because an encounter or flag requirement was made easier, or better gear came out, you got the thrill of being first, of having it, knowing it'd be easier to do in time or be outdated. I don't get why people feel their one item should be the end-all-beat-all *forever.*

[Densetsu]

Some people here are obviously new here, and when I say new I mean post-2009 FFXI so I'll explain to you why some people on here are very passionate about r/m/e,

It was SE themselves who stated, the game was NOT going past 75 and that relics and mythics were all there was to be FOREVER. Don't say we relic holders put a barrier up, take it up with SE and the "Welcome to 75, this is CAP bitches!" I have been playing since day two Japan release, not importer, I lived in Japan 1999-2003. There was talk of going all the way to level 250, yeah bet you didn't know that, but we got to 75 and the brakes got put on.
It took me a total of three and a half years to build two relics pre-abby, utilizing all my resources, time and friends to do so. I am talking waking up at odd hours of the night to do dynamis, crafting, hustling, swindling, scheming, damn near cheating, I mean relics used to be a reason for people to flat out hate you in real life! That's time. Time I won't get back. We invested this time because it used to be the "only the few will possess!". If SE said, "hey these weapons are the best at 75 but there may be better weapons on the horizon", hell if they would have warned us the level cap may one day get lifted, no one, I mean no one here would be complaining. We were told this was it, level 75, don't expect anything else. This isn't about some E-peen, or being first, this is about time spent doing what SE stated only a few adventures would ever do. SE hyped all this then BAM, new content and level raise blasted in the face. So please stop blaming us, the r/m/e community for drinking the cool-aid that the SE poured us. Once again, this isn't EQ, WOW, Aion, SWOTR, or any other MMO, this is FFXI, where you work on stuff that takes months and years and it shows while your partying and hunting with your peers, not standing in god damn PJ!

Side note, You know, it has always been my theory they halted development on XI to work on XIV and that's why we got stuck at 75. It's right around the time the started talking about the new MMO they were making.

[Ravenmore]

There were weapons that were better or close to relics at 75 that were piss easy to get and that when relics were a pain in the ass to get. Now every joe blow that has 2 hours a day to kill with a perle bst can have one in a couple months or lets not forget how many were bought with blinkers. Face it relic have became to common and only a couple mystics were ever worth the effort to start.

[Jaall]

If they call these weapons the new super weapons and made them harder to get and more in line with the difficulty to obtain relics/mythics etc, there would be absolutely no problem. Amazes me that some people just can't see that getting a weapon of this magnitude from a drop is just simply insulting to R/M/E owners. You didn't see anyone complaining when empy's were released despite them being same as/better than relics did you? That's because they took a lot of work to make and were justified.

I'll give you an example. Although we don't know how hard these new HNM are, I'm sure a quest such as "get 5-10 drops from a certain HNM and hand it in with a 99 crafted item to obtain such and such high damage weapon" would be a lot more accepted because although we don't know the difficulty of the HNM, it makes it more in line with relics etc to obtain and therefore not everyone will be running around with them, like is expected.

[MarkovChain]

After inputting the new H2H into motenten's spreadsheet, they appear to be only ~ 3 to 7 % damage boost compared to spharai, using shijin spiral on both weapons, depending on buffs. They look gamebreaking because we tend to forget the 13% triple proc rate on spharai. Spharai is more or less the same as a DMG +60 blank weapon. For anyone not used to H2H, "DMG+ X" on the weapon means that in typical situations (level 99, max merit and skill) you have to add 51 DMG to have the final value. So

spharai 99 = 103 DMG per fist (+ 14 with STR) + 13% triple proc rate
= 111 DMG per fist (+ 15 with STR) if it didn't have 3x proc rate
..and total delay 366

Tlapoloani = 125 DMG per fist (+16 with STR)
..and total delay 376

For your fists only, excluding kick attack and WS, it's a boost of
((125.0+16)/376)/((111+15)/366)=+9%

The overall boost is less because the weapon DMG doesn't affect kick attacks, and affects WS damage much less.

[Sapphires]

As someone who has been slowly chipping away at collecting alexandrite for the last year and still has 10000 pieces more to collect, i'm not really sure what to think.
I'll finish my mythic regardless of however all this sorts out but how many months are we going to have to wait before the dev team figures out what it wants to do to keep R/E/M weapons worth the large time investment.

One of the unique things about FFXI that make it my favorite game is that they manage to design weapons that a player could continue to use for a long time.
R/E/M weapons should at least be something a player can choose to continue to upgrade so its a competitive option for players.

I'd prefer if SE would continue to add completely new weapon options that were luck based (like they did with vw pulse weaps) as well as continue to have an upgrade path for those of us that want to continue using our favorite R/E/M weapon.
If R/E/M weapons arent viable any longer then there is suddenly a whole lot less content worth doing in the game.

I dont really want to see XI go down the path of other mmos where you constantly get new items and throw old ones away, thats no longer a game im interested in playing.

[Areayea]

you know I think it would be cool if they did drop from the Naakuals; furthermore I hope that those hnms are harder than tiamat/pw/av/vrtra/jormy back in the day; I think that would solve everyone's Q.Qing, not to mention would come with a fun fight. also it would be awesome if they did what they did with pw and av where the updates never gimped them if anything they made them harder (3 hour race to defeat the 21 versions of PW back in the day lololol)

[Asymptotic]

Good. The damn relics have lorded over this game and put an arbitrary barrier on making new and exciting items for everyone in the game that doesn't want to relic grind. If you got your relic like some of us have, then awesome, great, cool beans buttered jeans. Now deal with the growth of the game, deal with it becoming outdated, and move on! There's so much "don't take my achievement away," but that's entirely the wrong mindset. When I played EQ you didn't whine because an encounter or flag requirement was made easier, or better gear came out, you got the thrill of being first, of having it, knowing it'd be easier to do in time or be outdated. I don't get why people feel their one item should be the end-all-beat-all *forever.*

They've already stated they're going to do something to 99 RMEs, so I don't know what you're getting all excited about. If you weren't capable of making a 99 RME before, chances are you won't have access to these new weapons either so good luck with that. Enjoy your AH weapons!

Also, your argument is stupid. Keeping prestige weapons the top of their niche in no way takes away SE's ability to make new and desirable weapons that are either useful for non-prestige owners, situationally useful for prestige-owners, or both. A good example is Murasamemaru. It doesn't blow any of the prestige weapons away under normal conditions, but where it's useful, it's amazing. I have a 99 Terpsichore and a 99 Twashtar. Under normal conditions, I dual-wield them both - but I have myriad other daggers that I equip under other situations. Do I need to evade? I wield Twash/Evasion dagger. Do I need haste more than anything? Twashtar/Oynos. Other weapons that I use or would use situationally include but are not limited to Pugiunclus and STR Thokcha. Daggers are actually a great example because they recently released Aluh Jambiyah, an AH-buyable option which was still behind RME for pretty much all purposes, but it was still a highly competitive option for players who play more casually or picked up a job on the side.

[Aeonk]

you know I think it would be cool if they did drop from the Naakuals; furthermore I hope that those hnms are harder than tiamat/pw/av/vrtra/jormy back in the day; I think that would solve everyone's Q.Qing, not to mention would come with a fun fight. also it would be awesome if they did what they did with pw and av where the updates never gimped them if anything they made them harder (3 hour race to defeat the 21 versions of PW back in the day lololol)

You realize that it's those types of mobs that enforce the "zerg it down" mentallity everyone hates now right? Mobs that can kill you just by making eye contact does not make for an engaging fight, just for a "kill it before it kills us" fight. And until now we've had Perfect Defense/Embrava to deal with those mobs. Now with the recent nerf, if you continue to make mobs like that it's only going to frustrate the playerbase and bleed subscriptions.

Despite the prestige that having the Virtuous Saint title used to have, no one should want another AV. It doesn't have to be abyssea god mode either, but a nice balance in the middle (with some game mechanics getting fixed) that'll create engaging gameplay.

[Areayea]

You realize that it's those types of mobs that enforce the "zerg it down" mentallity everyone hates now right? Mobs that can kill you just by making eye contact does not make for an engaging fight, just for a "kill it before it kills us" fight. And until now we've had Perfect Defense/Embrava to deal with those mobs. Now with the recent nerf, if you continue to make mobs like that it's only going to frustrate the playerbase and bleed subscriptions.

Despite the prestige that having the Virtuous Saint title used to have, no one should want another AV. It doesn't have to be abyssea god mode either, but a nice balance in the middle (with some game mechanics getting fixed) that'll create engaging gameplay.

tbh I do want another av... i want another 7 avs... I think that'd be awesome >.>; there is an undefeatable mob that takes very specific strategies to defeat... rather than that zerg it down strat that you just outlined. as for that zerg it down before it kills us I want these to have benediction that activates if you do that >.> I think it'd be awesome.

[Jaall]

tbh I do want another av... i want another 7 avs... I think that'd be awesome >.>; there is an undefeatable mob that takes very specific strategies to defeat... rather than that zerg it down strat that you just outlined. as for that zerg it down before it kills us I want these to have benediction that activates if you do that >.> I think it'd be awesome.

I actually LOVE that idea! On any NM that's killed in say a minute that should last a lot longer, they should just have auto benediction lol, would be a new challenge for people and force them to use a strategy. Definitely a good fix for the whole zerging thing.

[Elphy]

I actually LOVE that idea! On any NM that's killed in say a minute that should last a lot longer, they should just have auto benediction lol, would be a new challenge for people and force them to use a strategy. Definitely a good fix for the whole zerging thing.

But if you can zerg it down in a minute or two even benediction wouldnt be anything more than a minor annoyance.

What would be nice is if say they introduced a nm that cycled thru weaknesses, blunt/piercing/magic/etc at random or one that just became plain invulnerable to ws/magic/etc damage unless certain conditions were met (ie nm is only vulnerable to magic damage when silenced, or nm is only vulnerable to piercing damage while poisoned), so you couldnt just easily zerg it. Even enfeebs being useful again would be great since as of now they are all but worthless on most mobs and esp most nm in the game.

A good ai that adapted to your fight style would also make things a whole lot more fun.

[Ravenmore]

I actually LOVE that idea! On any NM that's killed in say a minute that should last a lot longer, they should just have auto benediction lol, would be a new challenge for people and force them to use a strategy. Definitely a good fix for the whole zerging thing.

No it wouldn't. It would be just the same old tank and spank or kiting. Really thanks to FFXI outdated code and LOLps2 there are only 3 ways to beat any boss, tank and spank, kite, zerg. With the over use of 30 min time limits zerg ahs became the main strat since you don't have the time or the area to do the other two.

[saevel]

tbh I do want another av... i want another 7 avs... I think that'd be awesome >.>; there is an undefeatable mob that takes very specific strategies to defeat... rather than that zerg it down strat that you just outlined. as for that zerg it down before it kills us I want these to have benediction that activates if you do that >.> I think it'd be awesome.

Except you'd just zerg it down .....

You realize we killed AV by zerging right .... until SE patched it ... then we zerged it again ... and again and again.

[Areayea]

Except you'd just zerg it down .....

You realize we killed AV by zerging right .... until SE patched it ... then we zerged it again ... and again and again.

not like AV now... AV like it used to be... impossible to cap defense, uses all the tricks in the book, and like the 75 AV... impossible; nowadays everything old content is a push over... as for the other person above about the kite, zerg, and tank and zerg methods... remember, there did used to be more to this game than kite and zerg... there was defeat this one first. lol god I remember passing and failing so much on divine might back in the day. and don't forget about throwing things at sky gods helped... then there were outside party strats. ect. you see where I'm going, nobody is used to things that can't be "zerged down" lol maybe they should make these new bosses be resistant to slashing damage... that would throw a wrench in DD's gears XD

[Lotto]

not like AV now... AV like it used to be... impossible to cap defense, uses all the tricks in the book, and like the 75 AV... impossible; nowadays everything old content is a push over... as for the other person above about the kite, zerg, and tank and zerg methods... remember, there did used to be more to this game than kite and zerg... there was defeat this one first. lol god I remember passing and failing so much on divine might back in the day. and don't forget about throwing things at sky gods helped... then there were outside party strats. ect. you see where I'm going, nobody is used to things that can't be "zerged down" lol maybe they should make these new bosses be resistant to slashing damage... that would throw a wrench in DD's gears XD

Do you know how AV got killed at 75? Kraken club DRKs zerg until they nerfed Blood weapon.
Also back in the days there used to be outside parties for only one reason : every end game linkshells had more than 18 people who showed up to events.
Why do you think people prefer to zerg every NMs? It's way better to spend 10mins to buff and kill something then stare at a screen for 2hrs and pray for a win.

[Areayea]

Do you know how AV got killed at 75? Kraken club DRKs zerg until they nerfed Blood weapon.
Also back in the days there used to be outside parties for only one reason : every end game linkshells had more than 18 people who showed up to events.
Why do you think people prefer to zerg every NMs? It's way better to spend 10mins to buff and kill something then stare at a screen for 2hrs and pray for a win.

lol embrava gimp reminds me of blood weapon gimp, but still I miss the days of ppl spending 2 hrs to pray for a win... mind I remind you of the 18 hour Pandemonium warden XD; I still say they'll fix the zerg strat by making the mobs resist slashing... would make a ton of rangers/cors get knocked out tho O.o

[saevel]

lol embrava gimp reminds me of blood weapon gimp, but still I miss the days of ppl spending 2 hrs to pray for a win... mind I remind you of the 18 hour Pandemonium warden XD; I still say they'll fix the zerg strat by making the mobs resist slashing... would make a ton of rangers/cors get knocked out tho O.o

Then we just kill it with MNKs or DRG / RNG / CORs / SAMs.

Currently FFXI's engine doesn't support very dynamic interactive fights. All fights end up boiling down to a set of dice rolls of you vs the NM, and that it turn leads to weighting the dice in your favor and rolling as many times as possible. Aka "zerging".

[MarkovChain]

Also back in the days there used to be outside parties for only one reason : every end game linkshells had more than 18 people who showed up to events.

That's wrong. A very tiny minority of endgame linkshells were playing like this mostly NA (and they ended up doing the same old shit like fafnir anyway). Everyone else was using one LS per event with much less people per linkshell usually. The only thing I did with more than 18 was einherjar and old dynamis, and the rest was done in small LS of max 10.

[Camiie]

tbh I do want another av... i want another 7 avs... I think that'd be awesome >.>; there is an undefeatable mob that takes very specific strategies to defeat...

What? What "strategy" are you going to employ against an undefeatable mob? Spirit bomb? Spiral power? Ultrazord?


rather than that zerg it down strat that you just outlined. as for that zerg it down before it kills us I want these to have benediction that activates if you do that >.> I think it'd be awesome.

Final Fantasy XI Online. We're the MMO with more masochists than Second Life.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Yea, so back on topic, JP just got GS from skirmish, damage 179, +11 strength, +10% Weapon skill damage. Who cares about just the r/m/e it shits on. How about all the content in this game. SE is so stupid, they killed my entire drive of playing this game for years. This error on SE's behalf makes it pointless to do VW now, for gil at least (Akk those pulse weapons, quilin run is definitly worthless) because hmp are useless, nobody going to make anything other than harp 99, so good luck there if you haven't finished that.

Instead of your customers having new content and old content to enjoy and pay you for, once again you trashed the rest if the game. And sped up the process of this game ending. I know this was done for the purpose of making money, but I see it as epic failure. I'm not doing an I quit martyar thread, but I am not paying to beta test an expansion that defies the ffxi trend for the past 11 years, and killed all of my long term goals in game. My only regret is I paid for the expansion, which except for these game breaking weapons, I enjoyed.

FYI, I have ochain 90, kanagi 85, almace 85, started aegis. So it's not like I'm rocking a 95 relic or 99. And I'm pissed. I almost have enough for a 85 empyrean gun, as well as being half way thru making the harp, and a few items towards the dager/ga and bow. I would make a 99 relic, but not many empyrean I thought were worth the 1500 hmps...so the idea behind 1500 was to balance them, but really, you just wasted my dam time because I refuse to do the 1500 hmp on any of the empyreans I have. The harp to me is the only thing worth making to 99.

Now I dont mind new weapons being better, but better has to be balanced. Better has to take a long time to acquire, there was reason to fear. The fear was correct

I wouldn't have outclassed e/r/m and pulse weapons that easily. Since the player's minds, part of that mindset is building an endgame calibur weapon.besides a few empyreans, I never thought they were worth it past 90. Part of the beauty of the empyreans was you could take them to 90, they werent the best but they weren't junk.

[Zagen]

Crying about R/E/M/Pulse

It amazes me at how people cry when SE already said 99 R/E/M were going to get adjusted to remain relevant and best of all it wouldn't be through TotM... Why is no one looking at that GS and other weapons already augmented and thinking "If that's what intro weapons get what will R/E/M get?"

If you thought Pulse weapons weren't going to be further outclassed you're crazy, most of them were already out classed in most situations by a few options respectively and those options were almost always easier to get.

[Manux]

still think relics should still surpass any weapons out there due to the word "relics" They need to adjust the weapons, They have all ready sorted out the Twilight Scythe it was big argument against it I'm sure they can pull something off with the relics.

[Jaall]

Point is these "relic-breakers" are in the game already.... the relic adjustments, where are they? If they implemented these weapons already and knew of any balance at all they would have adjusted already. Don't get your hopes up that SE have adjustments in mind within the next few months.

[detlef]

The best 99 R/M/E should not be outclassed by a direct drop weapon, even if the weapon still has to be augmented to be awesome. That just doesn't make sense.

[Karbuncle]

It amazes me at how people cry when SE already said 99 R/E/M were going to get adjusted to remain relevant

Are all of you really this optimistic in regards to how SE will treat this? Or did you miss the point where they said "Would not go to waste" and not even remotely wording it in a way "Will be the best" or "Will be relevant".

I'm not going to sit back like a bear on a parkbench or a skeleton in a chair waiting for SE to deliver on R/E/M Adjustments. They said they would not be enhancing them through ToM "Or any other methods", but said "Have plants to make sure they do not go to waste".

We might not be getting a buff, They could just allow their Benefits to work in the offhand for 1 handers, as far as 2handers, who knows. Either way, they made it clear they dont plan on enhancing them through any methods... rather this means they'll just buff the DMG on them or something entirely different and far more useless and "Consolation prize" is completely up to speculation.

You're speculating positively, the other people don't trust SE on this one. neither side has any proof their speculation is warranted.


The best 99 R/M/E should not be outclassed by a direct drop weapon, even if the weapon still has to be augmented to be awesome. That just doesn't make sense.

And i have to agree with this. Regardless of how difficult Skirmishes are to enter, I shouldn't be able to outclass 99 Relics simply by entering a ~45 mInute event with 3-6 people.

[Kincard]

neither side has any proof their speculation is warranted.

There's no proof on either side, but the "adjustments will be worthless" side has way better precedent.

just saiyan


I shouldn't be able to outclass 99 Relics simply by entering a ~45 mInute event with 3-6 people.

I think it depends on if they plan on keeping the simulacrum this rare. If they stay this rare people are going to charge like 10M per piece and you only get 2/14 of the weapons to drop per run- would end up costing you quite a bit in theory. At best they should be probably a bit below relics.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Zagen,
If your going to quote me then quote me, don't be a bitch and put fake shit in quotes with my name. You wouldn't want me to put something up with your name and quotes and you didn't say it.



And about pulse weapons, they need buffs as well as the WOE weapons. Pulse technology is one of the most important aspects of VW, because of pulse weapons we can spam tier three zilarts and get hmp for gil, also. If pulse weapons are worthless, vw will become worthless that much faster. It's about using their heads when they JUST released VW within the past year...

These new weapons are too easy to get, there is no balance. That is something to to complain about, especially since balance is all you been hearing up until SOA. 1500 hmp, balance, 5 umbral marrows, balance,

170+ damage gs, direct drop, first week of SOA release, 3-6 man pt,balance. . ?

[Luvbunny]

We can argue all we wants, I don't think they will quack on what their plans are for R/M/E. Or you can go back to Abyssea - Voidwatch - Meeble - Neo Stuffs - Legion. Seems like SoA contents are not worth doing, but worth farming items while they are still hot and in high demands. Make sure to voice your critical opinion (and maybe a suggestion or two - assuming they really care what we think....). Then just quietly unsubscribe for a few months, wait till they implement a good updates or two, then play for a couple of months and take more breaks. Save yourself the agony, and save your money. You can easily save $15-80 a month depending on how many accounts you have.

[Zagen]

Zagen,
If your going to quote me then quote me, don't be a bitch and put fake shit in quotes with my name. You wouldn't want me to put something up with your name and quotes and you didn't say it.

Sorry I summarized your post... Feel better now?


And about pulse weapons, they need buffs as well as the WOE weapons. Pulse technology is one of the most important aspects of VW, because of pulse weapons we can spam tier three zilarts and get hmp for gil, also. If pulse weapons are worthless, vw will become worthless that much faster. It's about using their heads when they JUST released VW within the past year...
I'm sorry which pulse weapon that was released wasn't situational at best the moment it was released?

I never bothered doing VW for the weapons (far too situational for me) it was for the gear and Heavy Metal Plates, Riftcinder/dross. While you could argue the HMP/cinder/dross are "worthless" until the changes for Emps come out much of the gear that was good from VW is still good.


That is something to to complain about, especially since balance is all you been hearing up until SOA. 1500 hmp, balance, 5 umbral marrows, balance,

170+ damage gs, direct drop, first week of SOA release, 3-6 man pt,balance. . ?
When Emp weapons were revealed players cried about Relics becoming crap and needing updates. It took a while but that was fixed.

SE has never been good at making sure everything off the bat was remotely balanced when releasing new items, if this is new to you then I guess you haven't been playing any of the 10 years I have been playing.

I'd much rather have new items that make me think "OMG that's amazing" than shitty side-grades that plagued the 75 days and wait for the updates to R/E/M as I have more to do than stare at my relic and emps and cry in a corner.

[Cair]

I see no reason for not adjusting the available weapons at the same time as making these new weapons available.

Did you not know what the stats were going to be -- picked them blindfolded or something of the sort?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

still think relics should still surpass any weapons out there due to the word "relics"

Allow me to show you my complete collection of relic Warrior's Armor...

[Asymptotic]

I wouldn't have outclassed e/r/m and pulse weapons that easily. Since the player's minds, part of that mindset is building an endgame calibur weapon.besides a few empyreans, I never thought they were worth it past 90. Part of the beauty of the empyreans was you could take them to 90, they werent the best but they weren't junk.

Of course they're going to trash the weapons below 99. Did you wield level 69 weapons at level 75? The only weapons that should see any adjustment are the 99 versions.

[Demon6324236]

Your right, but really when doing this kind of out classing of old gear they really need to adjust the old gear in one of two ways, either A, make it easier to obtain, or B, make it better so it can stand up to the new gear. In other words, they need to make Pulse weapons better drop rates than simply 1% or bellow, or they need to change the weapons to be good enough to stand up to a level 99 weapon, like the new ones. Relics and such got this treatment in the ability to upgrade them, but they did not do it with anything else, and they did not adjust the drop rates on anything but the old Salvage gear so far as I know, so this old gear which is weaker is still a pain to get, harder than weapons which are much better, which is poor design.

[Kincard]

Maybe they'll take this opportunity to make sure the last 2, most expensive upgrades for Empyreans aren't also the most insignificant (outside of Harp). That's always made me go "wat".

[Demon6324236]

Well thanks to the expansion quickly kicking VW in its proverbial balls, those upgrades are probably going to be even worse to attempt, which a somewhat separate issue they need to resolve sometime soon because it effects all pulse weapons and Emp 95+ weapons badly.

[Kincard]

I don't see how that's the case at all. None of the best gear from VW has been outdated in the slightest. See:

-Toci's
-Mekira
-Heka's
-Mala
-Herpaderp Robe
-Athos's everything
-Ogier Helm/Boots
-Rubeus Boots

The Traditional Armor is good, but most of it serves totally different function than those offered by VW. And people will still do VW for gil if they need it, because Bayld isn't worth any gil as anything you trade from it is EX. Depending on what appears down the road you might be right, but none of the big pieces of VW have been toppled or even have any comparable alternatives from Adoulin yet. It's just that VW participation is lower at the moment because of "amg new expansion"- once people get bored of killing roots you'll probably see VW more active again. Not that Pil/other popular VWs don't still fill in about the same amount of time as they did before. I do think that the minor ones like Lancing Lamorak are going to be nearly impossible to find people for now, though.

Pulse Weapons, I agree with you on for the most part, but I never understood why people would do VW with the specific goal of obtaining pulse weapons given their drop rate (~0.05%). That aside, the only one that was truly good was Murasamemaru and that still retains its unique function. Though, really, how many Skirmish simulacrum do you currently own? I don't have a single one and neither do most of the people I know. Given the typical prices on pulse cells I don't think it'd actually be any cheaper to get a Skirmish weapon if you just bought all the entry pieces.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Of course they're going to trash the weapons below 99. Did you wield level 69 weapons at level 75? The only weapons that should see any adjustment are the 99 versions.

Ridill and K club says Hi....

[Asymptotic]

Congratulations for finding two situational exceptions to a general rule that don't really change the point at all.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Congratulations for finding two situational exceptions to a general rule that don't really change the point at all.

That was just the two that came to mine really back in the day a war with axe/ridll was common for those that had a ridll and not situation at all actually. Many pieces of low level gear kept value at 75 hell peeps used peacock charm in tp sets I think many have memory lost on how things used to be for sure. Only until abyssea did things really change heck we are now like wow and that has never been the case in the past.

Hey who all used the level 51 staffs oh wait many still do today.....

[Asymptotic]

I'm glad we can tell the difference between main DD weapons, staves wielded by mages for special effects, random pieces of gear, and incomplete Empyreans. 1.) 1H warior was extremely rare post 2H update. 2.) You're still either missing the point entirely, or just being difficult to be a pain.

[HimuraKenshyn]

I'm glad we can tell the difference between main DD weapons, staves wielded by mages for special effects, random pieces of gear, and incomplete Empyreans. 1.) 1H warior was extremely rare post 2H update. 2.) You're still either missing the point entirely, or just being difficult to be a pain.

Nah just pointing out your still wrong on most all accounts its cool like that Its like strolling down memory lane before SE changed recently to this itemization game...

[Karbuncle]

He's not really wrong at all. If your job is to Kill things with the Pointy/Blunt end of your WeaponThing, Generally Higher level weapons > Lower level weapons. The only general exception was Empyrean/Relics by a small margin, this is because of their benefits, and the occasional situational weapon like Ridill or K.Club.

These super-powered 99 Weapons are obviously going to sh*t on anything 98 and below, including Relics (They crap on some 99 Relics ^^)

[HimuraKenshyn]

He's not really wrong at all. If your job is to Kill things with the Pointy/Blunt end of your WeaponThing, Generally Higher level weapons > Lower level weapons. The only general exception was Empyrean/Relics by a small margin, this is because of their benefits, and the occasional situational weapon like Ridill or K.Club.

These super-powered 99 Weapons are obviously going to sh*t on anything 98 and below, including Relics (They crap on some 99 Relics ^^)

Now it does what I pointed out period back in history of this game it didn't always happen like that period. We lived in an ocean of side grades duel wield weapons lower than 75 period. This is before you could make a relic in a weekend and we took huge numbers to dynamis. Se has completely changed face on itemization ala wow where you upgrade all your gear with every expansion thats where the trend is headed. Every drk at 75 would kill for a K club every ranger wanted a ebow this went on for many years...

[Karbuncle]

Well, It wouldn't do the much good to release a whole new expansion of useless crap or sidegrades would it?

I'm Happy they're releasing top-tier/Kick-ass Armor, I just wish they'd of left weapons alone. Still, these new weapons are growing on me, and as sad as I am my Mandau isn't going to be In front by about...

Mandau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Next alternative.

and is now probably
Mandau/Alternative

or
Alternative>Mandau (After seeing that D:66 Del:183 Crit+5% Dagger, I think Mandau just died on anything short of lv. 100+ Enemies).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though i do admit, at the 75 Cap, there were lower level items that were sought after over some higher level items, These items generally stayed in the 70~75 range, with very few falling below that.

You had items like Destroyers, But were evnetually bested by Shenlongs, which were higher level.. Adaman Hauberk > Hauberk >/= Haubergeon. There was always a sense of "Gear ladder" in this game, In weapons and Armor... Its just in some cases the "Gear ladder" Ended a few levels short of cap, and in some cases, it didnt.

Right now, They're taking the gear ladder to 99 cap and improving above and beyond from there, Unlike at the 75 cap.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Well, It wouldn't do the much good to release a whole new expansion of useless crap or sidegrades would it?

I'm Happy they're releasing top-tier/Kick-ass Armor, I just wish they'd of left weapons alone. Still, these new weapons are growing on me, and as sad as I am my Mandau isn't going to be In front by about...

Mandau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Next alternative.

and is now probably
Mandau/Alternative

or
Alternative>Mandau (After seeing that D:66 Del:183 Crit+5% Dagger, I think Mandau just died on anything short of lv. 100+ Enemies).

They did for years lol. The new itemization trend seems a bit crazy tho next stop D200 GS I am really not sure where SE is headed with this trend. So much dead content now in this game it isn't funny. I want a storage moogle just for my memories where I had to actually fight with my ls mates in numbers to earn rewards it was painful now I can just buy off a NPC something just not as satisfying about that.

[Karbuncle]

They did for years lol...

And it was awful and stupid. Though i do agree the weapon upgrades are FKING CRAZY, and I question their direction and if they intend to kill R/M/E or adjust them.

The only good events were the ones that introduced clear upgrades in armor, or very casual friendly with decent rewards.

Read: most of ToAU.. Salvage/Nyzul. Limbus... Einherjar was only good cause of the Abjurations and Odin himself, the Einherjar rewards were kinda poop.

But regardless of how often they release sh*t gear and sidegrades, Unless i missed something, I'm not seeing how releasing clear upgrades and excellent armor is a bad thing? I like logging in and having something to get... If the armor is a reachable goal, Its reasonable.

The only issue i think that would come is if they make all this hard to obtain gear, and then replace it too soon... If the gear is too hard to get, people wont bother and they'll just wait, If its too easy, They'll end up going too full-WoW and just replacing it every month, and then it just becomes a generic gear-grinder MMO thats 10~11 Years old, which wont end well.

I know why they're taking this path, But unless Skirmish Weapons are going to remain viable for months/years, its at the current state way too hard to get into, if they plan on replacing it with better things later on. Honestly, it leaves a lot of uncertainty. I won't stop trying to get the gear, But I see what you mean, and where you're coming from.. I just, I know I can't be happy with Crap and sidegrades forever lol.

Plus almost certainly, every boxed expansion was released/latter added with Clear-Upgrade armor that was better than most previous.

RoTZ = Abjurations/God gear
CoP = Select Torques, Justice Sword, Homam/Nashira, Some AF/Relic+1 (DRG/SMN comes to mind)
ToAU = Odin Drops, Salvage, Nyzul
WoTG = Iron Ram Lance, Iron Ram Gear, Select Cobra pieces, Some of the Gear from that, Very select WoE Gear... This expansion is a bad example outside of Ixion/Sandworm drops i guess.
SoA = HEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey

[HimuraKenshyn]

In almost all the cases you mentions peeps would still do the kings, for years I baseline on them, your gear didn't become obsolete over night, you upgraded a piece you may have gotten something for a ws or tp phase none of them had you completely tossing all your stuff and starting over pretty much.

You use to have to work at gearing and make hard choices now its handed to you on a silver platter....

[Crusader81]

All I can say is this is just one more reason I'm stopping my Sub. as soon as Phase4 FFXIV Beta hits.. I have NO idea what they are thinking with this new direction, I just spent 4 months finishing my Relic weapon, and this new gear blows it away like it's trash.

Seriously pondering if they are trying to ruin the game, or it's just an accident.

[Horadrim]

All I can say is this is just one more reason I'm stopping my Sub. as soon as Phase4 FFXIV Beta hits.. I have NO idea what they are thinking with this new direction, I just spent 4 months finishing my Relic weapon, and this new gear blows it away like it's trash.

Seriously pondering if they are trying to ruin the game, or it's just an accident.

Look, I get it.

It always sucks to invest time and energy into something only to find out that there's something better out there. I can appreciate the annoyance of it -- it happens in real life a lot. Say, for house or car shopping. You finally commit to something, only to find out you could have gotten a deal just as good one something twice as good; its annoying. Especially if you invested in a fixer-upper and it required a good bit of work.

Respectfully, however, all I can say is get over it. Get over it and get over yourself.

There are people who, 5 years ago, invested YEARS of hardwork, coordination, organization, and energy into building relics when they could only work on it in 36 man groups every three days. When just unlocking the ability to get to Dynamis took days and currency costed several times as much as it does now. Four months is a joke in the face of the amount of work it just to get to level 75 back in the day -- hell my very first character back in 2003 took me 3 months to get to level 30 the first time for all of the learning I had to do and just figuring out where everything was.

But this isn't about me or the past -- its about the reality of what this game has to do to keep going.

It has to let go; Seriously. You can't keep clutching the overly polished handle of an old '05 chevy cobalt demanding that they keep putting in new parts and retro fitting the engine so it can keep up with the 2014 model. That's not how the world works and that's now how an MMO should work .

Are the Skirmish weapons good? They are damn good, they are amazingly and mind-blowingly good -- but news flash, the goodness of those weapons does not make your Relic, Mythic, or Empyrean weapon any less potent as it has been thus far. Your weapon wasn't removed from the game and eliminated from the pools or nerf'd such that you can't use it anymore -- there has just been new gear added to GIVE YOU SOMETHING ELSE TO WORK ON. You finished Level 20? Here, we'll add level 21.

That's how video games work -- and if you think you should quit because your next goal has been put in front of you and the reward is better than the previous goal then yeah, go ahead and go because we don't need people who refuse to look forward to new challenges. If your mindset was "Once I'm done with this Relic they'll never be anything better and I'm done" you shouldn't be here anyway.

And I'm not trying to be mean, ugly, rude, or to start any fights but that's the reality of it. We'd all be pissed to holy hell if SE didn't add any new weapons or gear with the expansion. And people would be frustrated if the new weapons weren't as good as R/M/E -- so why are people losing their shit because the new gear is better ? Honestly, I'm GLAD the new gear is irrefutably better because it solves a hell of a lot of gear problems for me moving forward. Furthermore, your Relic is your prerequisite for even getting a chance at these weapons.

You really think Joe-smoe who just FC'd his Dark Knight to 99, is working with a lv. 75 Rare/EX G.Sword and nothing but Empy+2 and low AH accessories is going to be prime pickings for Skirmishes? No, its going to be people like you with Relics/Mythics/Empys -- just like it is for NNI, Meebles, and Voidwatch.

Seriously -- the fact you build your Relic is the only reason you'll be able to get a Skirmish weapon, so cut the shit and enjoy the fact you have a new goal to work towards and that you'll be on the front lines of getting it while other people have to go ahead and build their relics, empy, and mythics knowing there's something 10x better or pray they get lucky enough to find a decent PUG of R/M/E folks who don't care about carrying some deadweight loser along for the ride (which doesn't happen as much as you'd think, unless you're a WHM.)


In almost all the cases you mentions peeps would still do the kings, for years I baseline on them, your gear didn't become obsolete over night, you upgraded a piece you may have gotten something for a ws or tp phase none of them had you completely tossing all your stuff and starting over pretty much.

You use to have to work at gearing and make hard choices now its handed to you on a silver platter....

I couldn't find an actual date for when they were added, but there are comments on Verethragna as early as 2010 -- I'm sorry but 2-3 years is not "over night."

And there's a whole expansion of content left for Adoulin -- the first weapons revealed are very seldom the last, and I bet your "takes me another 2 years" weapons are going to revealed later. Even still in the case of Empyreans no one can really complain about the what, week or two, it takes to build one.

Mythics came out in what, 2007? 2008? Relics are back from pre-ToAU and that was 2006 when it came out.

There's nothing "overnight" about these weapon upgrades. It's time for people to move on -- as long as there are players there will be more gear and if people ask for it, they'll be more "make you feel good about yourself" 'difficult' weapons to attain down the road as well.

And I'm sorry, but it is a bit late to start complaining about things being handed to people -- not when the entire community adamantly alienates non-"heavy DD" jobs in attempt to make everything done in the game into a zerg-fest. No one has been interested in actually learning and earning gear for years now or else every event wouldn't be a WS-spamming TP fest. If you think Voidwatch, Empy, Abyssea, or even Mythics are "challenging" then you might want to reevaluate your use of the word -- especially over the past 4-5 years.


And it was awful and stupid. Though i do agree the weapon upgrades are FKING CRAZY, and I question their direction and if they intend to kill R/M/E or adjust them.


Feels like a large-scale reset for forecoming content to me. Right now the only way to be accepted in to groups for events is to either be a mage (specifically BLM, WHM, or BRD -- unless its NNI then just SCH) or to have R/M/E completed to some degree. Since they obviously want people out of Abyssea, they'd have to give something better than Empyrean, mythics are "hard" to get people together to work on, and Relics are more about farming gil than actually facing a challenge. I imagine they want to reset the game to establish new gameplay trends and a new direction for content. They said the game has obviously shifted from level-focus to gear-focus, so giving themselves a fresh baseline somewhat high above the current standards is like setting up for a completely new and pure arms race. It will still be dictated by the standards of who has the prerequisite gear (see what i said above) but its pretty clear since they want the game to keep going that this is the starting line for a new gear grind. That's the only explanation for why they'd push things so far beyond the current standard "high."

Frankly, i wouldn't put it past them to make it so that you can use your completed Empy/Relic/Mythic as augment material for a true Ultimate weapon down the line.

[Crusader81]

Yea, so back on topic, JP just got GS from skirmish, damage 179, +11 strength, +10% Weapon skill damage. Who cares about just the r/m/e it shits on. How about all the content in this game. SE is so stupid, they killed my entire drive of playing this game for years. This error on SE's behalf makes it pointless to do VW now, for gil at least (Akk those pulse weapons, quilin run is definitly worthless) because hmp are useless, nobody going to make anything other than harp 99, so good luck there if you haven't finished that.

Instead of your customers having new content and old content to enjoy and pay you for, once again you trashed the rest if the game. And sped up the process of this game ending. I know this was done for the purpose of making money, but I see it as epic failure. I'm not doing an I quit martyar thread, but I am not paying to beta test an expansion that defies the ffxi trend for the past 11 years, and killed all of my long term goals in game. My only regret is I paid for the expansion, which except for these game breaking weapons, I enjoyed.

FYI, I have ochain 90, kanagi 85, almace 85, started aegis. So it's not like I'm rocking a 95 relic or 99. And I'm pissed. I almost have enough for a 85 empyrean gun, as well as being half way thru making the harp, and a few items towards the dager/ga and bow. I would make a 99 relic, but not many empyrean I thought were worth the 1500 hmps...so the idea behind 1500 was to balance them, but really, you just wasted my dam time because I refuse to do the 1500 hmp on any of the empyreans I have. The harp to me is the only thing worth making to 99.

Now I dont mind new weapons being better, but better has to be balanced. Better has to take a long time to acquire, there was reason to fear. The fear was correct

I wouldn't have outclassed e/r/m and pulse weapons that easily. Since the player's minds, part of that mindset is building an endgame calibur weapon.besides a few empyreans, I never thought they were worth it past 90. Part of the beauty of the empyreans was you could take them to 90, they werent the best but they weren't junk.

^
Yeah all of this.
I'm sure they'll fix the R/E/M as fast as they implemented Cait Sith and Atomos for Summoner.

[Zhronne]

Did you wield level 69 weapons at level 75?
Not level 69 but I did wield lv 71, 72 and 73 weapons.
Destroyers, Shenlong Baghnaks, Perdu Blade, Senjuinrikio, Hagun (to name a few).

[Asymptotic]

And those weapons were released with what level cap in mind?

LV90 empyreans were released for a 90 cap game, you're lucky that any of them were ever competitive at 99 in the first place.

There will be an adjustment to 99 prestige weapons however, for two reasons :

1.) SE knows better. Mythics in particular have a 350+m market value and people won't take it well if they're marginalized (any further than they already are by the limitations of mythic weapons). In particular, SE has also strongly implied (if not virtually directly stated) that they will introduce mythic weapons for GEO and RUN, so there isn't a huge interest in eliminating the competitiveness of the entire line of weaponry. 99 RME may not remain on top all the time for all purposes, but they will remain (well , those that are useful now) high in the hierarchy.

2 .) The language and structure in the JP and NA posts regarding 99 RME makes it pretty apparent that they're going to adjust the 99 versions of the weapons somehow. The only reason they would go out of their way to confirm that Afterglow weapons and non-afterglow weapons will receive the same treatment and to exclude instruments / shields because they will remain "the highest caliber" is that they plan to directly adjust the performance of these weapons. What sort of adjustment? There are a lot of things they could do, we'll just have to wait.

But yeah, continue the chorus of BRING ON THE DEMISE OF THE PRESTIGE WEAPON BECAUSE I'M ANNOYED THAT I DON'T HAVE ONE AND CAN'T COMPETE. Enjoy your AH weapons and LV85 Empyreans Q.Q

P . S . The actual Skirmishes are not difficult, so you don't need 99RME to compete in there (It's not much more difficult than Meeble Burrows). The only hard part is statues to enter , because they drop randomly in things like Reives, HELM, Soul Pyres, and Coalition Assignments.

[Denmork]

You people do understand that there is a possibility that the skirmish weapons will impact a lot more than just the RME holders themselves right. Dynamis currency, heavy metal plates, and Alexandrite are all great sources of money that literally everyone can farm. Removing that option cuts down the way to make money by a huge amount and can create a inbalance of super rich Vs. super poor much like the super inflation from years past. It's actually already started happening on my server Dynamis coins has started dropping at a pretty fast rate, and few are buying for fear of the unknown.

[Asymptotic]

If there's anything SE knows how to do it's destroy an economy.

[Werewolf]

It took me roughly a year and a half to complete my relic which I finished back in mid 2007, then probably almost another 6 months (all of this pre-nerf, 1,500 relic ws + 7,500 relic ws kills) in trials (back when the 90 trial took about 2 1/2 weeks alone, pre neo-dynamis); I just finally got enough marrows to finish my 99 relic and litterly the next day they patched the new weapons and we started finding these higher DMG augmented Skirmish weapons...

I just really wish we knew what SE true intentions were, other than a vaguely worded message that offers very little reinsurance, especially for people who put a lot of work into these type of weapons.

[Luvbunny]

If there's anything SE knows how to do it's destroy an economy.

Who knows, maybe it will get better - I am sure they will adjust the R/M/E to make it still viable. Otherwise they will set themselves to crash and burn the game if they choose to render the pre-SoA content as outdated. Seriously, SoA is one of the WORST expansion to date that ever hit FFXI. Keeping all the old content valid would be the best idea they can come up with, even if that means a lot more people decided to not buy SoA. Why not try to come up with a good groundbreaking content that has blockbuster written all over it - then start charging us $30-40 for this.

If you all keep voicing your distaste, they will have to do something soon. Especially if what follow is nerd rage and people bum rush to SE Account management and canceling their accounts. Make your voice counts, say it if you don't like it, make suggestions. If nothing is done, then do the last thing, cancel. Come back when actual contents are updated and you deem the game worth paying and playing. I just hope it is not too late - we probably do not need another server merger.

[Asymptotic]

Just remember, poor people! Relics / Mythics /Empyreans being good means you have something to sell to rich people!

[Jaall]

Why don't SE keep the already good content good and just introduce equip that allows for more diversity and options alongside a great story. I'm sure everyone would be happy to get gear sets with store tp instead of haste etc so they have different options to choose from and it would mean people wouldn't be running around looking exactly the same like they are now.

[Demon6324236]

Problem is there are no options when it comes to the best, which is what most people aim for, there is one thing that is above everything else in that situation.

[Zhronne]

And those weapons were released with what level cap in mind?
75, which is why you asked "were you wielding level 69 weapons when the cap was 75?" and I replied "not 69, but 71, 72 and 73".
I don't get what your point is.

Are you trying to assume that when the level cap is X then level X gear/weapons are always gonna to be better than level X-1 gear/weapons?
If this is what you're trying to say yes, you're mostly right, but there have always been several exceptions in FFXI and there continue to be.
I still use level 54ish gear in some slots (for macros and situational stuff of course) for some jobs.
Chatoyant staff is a level 51 weapon if I recall and blah blah blah, we could go on forever but we'd enter the field of "special" items with special properties that kinda get ruled out because of their uniqueness.

The examples I provided in the first line instead were weapons with a level under the cap of the time, which in spite of that were still some among the best weapons the respective jobs could get access to. There wasn't anything particularly special about them, they were just freaking awesome, period :D


In spite of all of this, it's not the first time SE uses this approach FOR GEAR and, as a matter of fact, I don't think nobody ever whined about that because after almost 11 years people got used to the pattern and the consequent balancement.
It is though the first time this happens for weapons. There is no correspondant gear that takes as much work to be obtained as R/E/M weapons and they have always represented a "roof" over which normal weapons could never go over.
The only time they disregarded this rule was when they introduced Empyreal weapons, but it didn't last long since adjustments to Relics and Mythics came shortly after.



As I already had the chance to write on BG, I don't think SE is doing this to "stimulate people into going to the new areas", it's not necessary and the new gear/newstuff was a motivation good enough, and they know it.
I rather think they are doing it for another reason.
Over the last year(s) Empyreal and Relics become so common they destroyed a "balance" there was within the game.
All other weapons become much less interesting because the majority of people were aiming for Relic/Empy, and we got to a point were people were required to have a mandatory R/E/M even for just being CONSIDERED for an invite (considered, not actually invited) to a lame and easy PUG.
Such a situation was a bit preposterous.
I think SE is trying to make so R/E/M remain cool but a thing for "a few cool people" and not for the mass.
How they're goin to do that?
Simple.
They release new better weapons and at the same time they update only the lv99 R/E/M.
Since the majority of people have 85/90 Empy and 95 Relics, they'll have to bite the dust and get the new easy weapons.

Result? Everybody gets an upgrade, the "mandatory R/E/M" attitude will die, hardcore players with 99 R/E/M won't see their precious treasure become useless because of a subsequent update.
Done! Everybody's happy!


I'm pretty confident this is their main motivation, but while I agree it's for "the greater good" it still makes me angry they're moving so late to "repair" to a mistake done over 2 years ago. I wish there could be some other way because you can't expect people to put months of works into something to see it become useless by something that can be obtained in a couple of days and feel happy about it.

[Jaall]

I agree with them with the fact that I didn't play a lot of my jobs just for the fact that I didn't have a relic on it and therefor not considered "good" especially PLD for example. I actually got called a terrible tank despite doing a good job tanking LB10 and survived for a long time, but the issue was they didn't get a healer and just expected me to full on tank it solo while the bsts worked away at him, which would have had a better chance of working if I had an Ochain or Aegis.

I do support bringing in weapons for people who don't want to be an amazing super player but just want to generally play a job and not be ridiculed for it, but the way to do that is to not outshine the best of the best, only to bring in weapons that are slightly worse but still an option. I see no problem with the original DMG on the weapons because that put them more in line with what I'm saying. Outclassing 95 is a good way to go about it, but outclassing 99 as well... that's just stupid and if they did aim to do that then maybe they should have already buffed the 99 because this sort of mistake at this stage of the game's life-cycle could very easily be catastrophic.

[Fermion]

Lets take an average DD now. They're probably all within 5% of each other (all things being equal). Most DDs are going to be in that 90 empy, 99 Oat GS, 99 TP bonus GK range. Substituting with a 99 R/E will give you, at best, 10-15% more damage than our average DD.

That being said, an alliance with 99 R/E DDs will kill 10-15% faster than average DDs. What the average DDs alliance takes 20 mins to kill, the pimped out 99s will take 17-18 mins to kill. Not a huge difference considering.

My point is, 99 R/E weapons have always been more trophy items than actual game changers. Honestly, I can only think of a few legitimate game changing items, and none of them are DD weapons (shields, instruments, stun staff comes to mind). So while I really do understand the concern of 99 R/E holders, they must also see the big picture and understand that their weapon never really changed their character as much as players made it out to.

This game is, and always was, about gearsets. Having competent gearsets, and using them appropriately makes a MUCH greater overall difference in gameplay than a singular weapon. So, if you have a 99 R/E then you obviously have the resources to have optimized your gearsets as well. The weapon is just the icing on the cake. So don't worry, it's not like the average Joe-Blow is going to be outdamaging you, regardless of what weapon they're using.

[Dantedmc]

If SE didn't want to cause widespread paranoia why didn't they just release the r/m/e updates at the same time as the expansion or at least post notes about the planned r/m/e changes. Just saying we plan to make them not go to waste is not really reassuring.

[Zhronne]

It's funny when you see the leader of a PUG being so obsessed about gear that he demands R/E/M DDs but then he takes an average SAM with average gear only because he has a lv85 Masamune and refuses an excellent SAM with nice gear and a lv99 Kantonotachi.
Because no way that's gonna be better than an 85 Masamune, inorite? w


I think it's this kind of attitude, this kind of axioms that got so spread around the player base that SE wants to destroy or, at least, make so they have a much smaller relevance.

[Fermion]

It's funny when you see the leader of a PUG being so obsessed about gear that he demands R/E/M DDs but then he takes an average SAM with average gear only because he has a lv85 Masamune and refuses an excellent SAM with nice gear and a lv99 Kantonotachi.
Because no way that's gonna be better than an 85 Masamune, inorite? w


I think it's this kind of attitude, this kind of axioms that got so spread around the player base that SE wants to destroy or, at least, make so they have a much smaller relevance.

It's kind of like when you see $5,000 rims and a sports kit on a car with a V-4 engine. It looks great until it gets smoked by a 15 year old tuner.

You're absolutely right, lots of people in-game are taking "looks" over performance.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Because its not going to get better. Every m/r/e holder that pays for the subscription post SOA is to blame for allowing SE to waste your time building r/m/e and then trolling out with the 99 updgrade items, knowing they were going to troll you again with Skirmish. I cant play anymore, I tried, the appetite to play, the desire to finish my long time goals are all gone because Skirmish outdated it ALL. Before SOA I was enjoying alot of the content in the game. Now, instead of enjoying SOA and the other content, it's only Skirmish that matters, instead of being Skirmish plus Dynamis, Abyssea, VW, etc, the events needed to make the other 3 ultimate weapons.

And I can't just switch to the only SOA mode, knowing that it was done to streamline FFXI into what every other MMO is doing, the game was not made like that. It has a history of some balance and that it wasn't like other MMO's, that's why I've been playing not only FFXI for the past five years, but ONLY this game for the past five years. No other game have I played unless there's a server issue being down for more than half a day. I used to be a FPS too!

I got really hooked on 11, but this weapon stuff is the biggest FFXI sobering moment I've had. It's not even about the courage to break my addiction, it just happened, I just can't play the game. I tried to do a quilin VW run and I felt like all those guys in the pt, which took 10x longer to fill than before, didn't know what they were getting themselves into. Like, in 3 months they'll get it, maybe sooner.

I'm not even mad anymore. I'm in a state of shock or disgust, I'm not even sure which, lol. I tried to play another game for the first time in forever and the disc tray won't eject from 360, lmao! I find myself on this very slow and old laptop more often now. Since I've been a long time supporter of FFXI I will continue to be concerned of the direction she takes, reguardless if I subscribe or not.

[Lotto]

My point is, 99 R/E weapons have always been more trophy items than actual game changers. Honestly, I can only think of a few legitimate game changing items, and none of them are DD weapons (shields, instruments, stun staff comes to mind). So while I really do understand the concern of 99 R/E holders, they must also see the big picture and understand that their weapon never really changed their character as much as players made it out to.


You probably don't own one to say that.
Most of the DDs using 85 or even 90 Empyreans are gimps that think that using a weapon with a unique weapon skills make them good, well it's not. While it's not a "game changer" it sure makes a huge difference when you face a tough ennemy. I wouldn't even think about bringing a DD like that to something like Bismarck, PW or Botulus Rex.

I don't mind they release some new weapons but do they have to destroy every relics/mythics/empyreans? This is just a slap in the face to every 99 R/M/E holders.

[Zhronne]

Concerned, aren't you being a bit too hasty about this? I mean SoA hasn't been out not even 2 weeks, many players still have to receive their expansion pack and yet you come to conclusions so fast.

I'm as worried (and annoyed!!!) as anybody else if not more, but while I can't deny my feelings it would be stupid and superficial to judge things so early. It's way too early man! Give it a bit of time.
Then you'll be able to say "I TOLD YOU SO!!1!!1!one" or maybe SE will surprise you and prove you wrong.
Give it time and time will tell ;)

[Jaall]

I'm in exactly the same place as concerned is, and it's not just a case of being hasty towards an expansion being bad or unbalanced, it's just a case of the game completely changing the direction so much that you feel it's not even worth playing. Yes there will be updates to fix it but how will they fix it? It's not the same as Abyssea and doesn't even feel the same game anymore so it was easy to quit. I am actually really happy I got this opportunity to quit though, it's come at a great time in my life because I would have to cut back how much I play anyway, but that doesn't stop me being concerned about the game and coming on here to see what's going on and the fixes SE implement.

I am sure SE will "balance" the game but I just feel this is kinda the end of the FFXI we all love. It's taken a whole new turn and become a different game in my eyes. I played for the older content which was around for years, which is now literally 100% obsolete. Previously you could still do sky gods, augment them and they would be on par or best in slot for some things and now it's all been replaced by SoA. It's great for people who are new to the game but to those of us who like to play events from AU, CoP etc have no other choice but to only focus on SoA and it isn't "that" good. Not good enough to warrant me playing it non stop with no other activities, and yes I can still do salvage etc but what's the point if everything you get from it sucks compared to easy gear you get from SoA? Imo SE have effectively killed 80% of it's game off and considering the place it's in, is suicide.

[Crusader81]

If SE didn't want to cause widespread paranoia why didn't they just release the r/m/e updates at the same time as the expansion or at least post notes about the planned r/m/e changes. Just saying we plan to make them not go to waste is not really reassuring.

This is a lesson they SHOULD have learned at the start of Abyssea, but obviously haven't.

[Fermion]

You probably don't own one to say that.
Most of the DDs using 85 or even 90 Empyreans are gimps that think that using a weapon with a unique weapon skills make them good, well it's not. While it's not a "game changer" it sure makes a huge difference when you face a tough ennemy. I wouldn't even think about bringing a DD like that to something like Bismarck, PW or Botulus Rex.

I don't mind they release some new weapons but do they have to destroy every relics/mythics/empyreans? This is just a slap in the face to every 99 R/M/E holders.

Did you read my post in its entirety? 10-15% damage is the most you get from changing from a 90 empy (or equivalent) to 99. That's about 1-2 minutes off of those NMs at best (if the ENTIRE alliance upgraded from 90-99). Let's say your 90 weapon does 20k damage per NM, a 99 would do 22-23k. If you say that's a "huge difference" or "gimp" then those are your definitions, not mine. I don't want to argue semantics, that's all it's really going to boil down to.

A better argument would be that the 99 holders tend to have much better gearsets overall, instead of focusing simply on the weapon.

[Fulgore]

:mad: .................

[Horadrim]

As I already had the chance to write on BG, I don't think SE is doing this to "stimulate people into going to the new areas", it's not necessary and the new gear/newstuff was a motivation good enough, and they know it.
I rather think they are doing it for another reason.
Over the last year(s) Empyreal and Relics become so common they destroyed a "balance" there was within the game.
All other weapons become much less interesting because the majority of people were aiming for Relic/Empy, and we got to a point were people were required to have a mandatory R/E/M even for just being CONSIDERED for an invite (considered, not actually invited) to a lame and easy PUG.
Such a situation was a bit preposterous.


Thank you.

The fact that every non-paper shout demands a R/M/E heavy DD belows my fucking mind. Frankly I'm glad they are hitting the reset button. They already said they are going to give R/M/E wielders something to compensate for the changes (maybe a way to transfer some of the attributes from your 99's to the new weapons, or contribute to the potency of the new ultimate weapons that will come out down the line). I find it ridiculous that people are acting like this is going to ruin the game just because THEY are late to the show with building their endgame weapons...


/RAGEQUIT

All caps rage quit? <See You Again!>

[hiko]

itt :
1)relic or empy are only about base damage
2)item needed to enter skirmish are common drop, skirmish will drop 100% the weapon you want and you will get the max possible augment on1st try.

[Asymptotic]

75, which is why you asked "were you wielding level 69 weapons when the cap was 75?" and I replied "not 69, but 71, 72 and 73".
I don't get what your point is.

Are you trying to assume that when the level cap is X then level X gear/weapons are always gonna to be better than level X-1 gear/weapons?
If this is what you're trying to say yes, you're mostly right, but there have always been several exceptions in FFXI and there continue to be.
I still use level 54ish gear in some slots (for macros and situational stuff of course) for some jobs.
Chatoyant staff is a level 51 weapon if I recall and blah blah blah, we could go on forever but we'd enter the field of "special" items with special properties that kinda get ruled out because of their uniqueness.

The examples I provided in the first line instead were weapons with a level under the cap of the time, which in spite of that were still some among the best weapons the respective jobs could get access to. There wasn't anything particularly special about them, they were just freaking awesome, period :D


In spite of all of this, it's not the first time SE uses this approach FOR GEAR and, as a matter of fact, I don't think nobody ever whined about that because after almost 11 years people got used to the pattern and the consequent balancement.
It is though the first time this happens for weapons. There is no correspondant gear that takes as much work to be obtained as R/E/M weapons and they have always represented a "roof" over which normal weapons could never go over.
The only time they disregarded this rule was when they introduced Empyreal weapons, but it didn't last long since adjustments to Relics and Mythics came shortly after.



As I already had the chance to write on BG, I don't think SE is doing this to "stimulate people into going to the new areas", it's not necessary and the new gear/newstuff was a motivation good enough, and they know it.
I rather think they are doing it for another reason.
Over the last year(s) Empyreal and Relics become so common they destroyed a "balance" there was within the game.
All other weapons become much less interesting because the majority of people were aiming for Relic/Empy, and we got to a point were people were required to have a mandatory R/E/M even for just being CONSIDERED for an invite (considered, not actually invited) to a lame and easy PUG.
Such a situation was a bit preposterous.
I think SE is trying to make so R/E/M remain cool but a thing for "a few cool people" and not for the mass.
How they're goin to do that?
Simple.
They release new better weapons and at the same time they update only the lv99 R/E/M.
Since the majority of people have 85/90 Empy and 95 Relics, they'll have to bite the dust and get the new easy weapons.

Result? Everybody gets an upgrade, the "mandatory R/E/M" attitude will die, hardcore players with 99 R/E/M won't see their precious treasure become useless because of a subsequent update.
Done! Everybody's happy!


I'm pretty confident this is their main motivation, but while I agree it's for "the greater good" it still makes me angry they're moving so late to "repair" to a mistake done over 2 years ago. I wish there could be some other way because you can't expect people to put months of works into something to see it become useless by something that can be obtained in a couple of days and feel happy about it.

Then it seems we agree on all accounts (except it seems that the overall nature of my statement was heavily misappropriated - probably my fault for wording it rigidly in an environment where everything will be taken literally)! My response was to a sentiment (which I interpreted) as lamenting that 90 and below weapons would not be adjusted to remain competitive (this complaint is also found in the JP forums to some degree). I don't think it's unfair to trash them just as I'm not annoyed by Shenlong's being no longer relevant (The point of my statement was that people were lucky that Empyreans at stage 85 or 90 were competitive with 99 equipment in the first place and there was no reason to expect that this would remain true, while the expectation that 99 prestige weapons remain competitive is perfectly reasonable). Melee weapons generally, unlike gear and mage weapons, necessarily scale steeply with level. However, I feel that adjusting 99 weapons (which represent a larger investment) is fair and probably necessary to sustain not only continuing interest in the game but also the in-game economy (and I think SE knows this).

Note that I said that "the expectation that 99 prestige weapons remain competitive is perfectly reasonable." There are of course, arguments for why they should not remain as such but most if not all of those reasons fall to the wayside when 99 RMEs are competing on level ground with available high-tier weapons from SoA.

[Crusader81]

Thank you.

The fact that every non-paper shout demands a R/M/E heavy DD belows my fucking mind. Frankly I'm glad they are hitting the reset button. They already said they are going to give R/M/E wielders something to compensate for the changes (maybe a way to transfer some of the attributes from your 99's to the new weapons, or contribute to the potency of the new ultimate weapons that will come out down the line). I find it ridiculous that people are acting like this is going to ruin the game just because THEY are late to the show with building their endgame weapons...



All caps rage quit? <See You Again!>

The fact that 90% of the current game content is built around obtaining a R/E/M weapon doesn't concern you?

Farming dyna
Farming Salvage
Farming Abyssea weapons
Farming HMPs from VW/ cinders

Do away with those weapons being wanted and what are you left with?

Reives, Legion, and Meebles. Not to mention how most people make their money farming those things atm, and since they've completely broken the AH of all leveling items Crafting or leveling Crafting is all but impossible, or the most pointless thing in the world.

I cancelled my Sub today, there's just no point anymore, telling other ppl to like the new content or leave will only hasten FFXI's demise.

[Zhronne]

My response was to a sentiment (which I interpreted) as lamenting that 90 and below weapons would not be adjusted to remain competitive (this complaint is also found in the JP forums to some degree). I don't think it's unfair to trash them just as I'm not annoyed by Shenlong's being no longer relevant (The point of my statement was that people were lucky that Empyreans at stage 85 or 90 were competitive with 99 equipment in the first place and there was no reason to expect that this would remain true
Euuuuuh...
Well I wanted to say something but in the end I'm afraid you're absolutely right =/
It's just that when you act so LATE to "fix" something done in the past (that brought to the consequence of R/E being too common etc) of course people are gonna whine.

What I mean is: yes, this change in the long run will probably be good for *all of us*, not just the few cool people with afterglow cool stuff etc.
But at the same time can we really be surprised people are whining? I mean, we can all agree this is potentially quite a big kick in the nutts, no?
Now the thing is arguable for level 85/90 empies, but for level 95 Relics? They still require quite a bit of dedication to be completed, unless you have a bot that nets you 3 mils gil for you every day while you're sleeping.

I'm just saying that my mood atm is kinda stuck in between.
On one side people whining calling the end of the world blahblahblah.
On the other side cool people getting cocky and screaming "man up!" to the other ones.
Yeah lol, I'm definitely stuck somewhere in between atm :P

/foreveralone


But yeah, I guess I'll get through it with time, I'm particularly confident that if they play their cards right this change might prove a good thing for all of us, from the casual noobs to the hardcore pros.

[Demon6324236]

Farming dyna
Farming Salvage
Farming Abyssea weapons
Farming HMPs from VW/ cindersSome Relic gear is still good, especially +2, so thats not entirely worthless without Relics.

Salvage II has some great gear for people to go after.

Emps are easier to make than the weapons that were just added.

VW has tons of gear worth getting, if the only reason you were doing it is for plates/cinder/dross then...

[Yinnyth]

The fact that 90% of the current game content is built around obtaining a R/E/M weapon doesn't concern you?

Farming dyna
Farming Salvage
Farming Abyssea weapons
Farming HMPs from VW/ cinders

Do away with those weapons being wanted and what are you left with?

Reives, Legion, and Meebles. Not to mention how most people make their money farming those things atm, and since they've completely broken the AH of all leveling items Crafting or leveling Crafting is all but impossible, or the most pointless thing in the world.

I cancelled my Sub today, there's just no point anymore, telling other ppl to like the new content or leave will only hasten FFXI's demise.

(Specific reply to quoted post):
You're allowed to like old content still. Just like people 6 months ago could farm evoliths and do avatar battles for equipment if they wanted, you will still be able to do older events if you want to. If you enjoy specific content in the game, by all means, do the content you enjoy.

(General reply to overall thread):
But a reasonable human being should understand that an MMO is an evolving game. It is foolish to get the best weapon in the game and honestly believe it will remain the best weapon forever. What if level 75 relic weapons were still the best weapon in the game? It would be boring. Everyone would have one by now and have nothing new to reach for.

If you think the new weapons are better than your current ones, don't think of it as your old weapon becoming worthless. Your old weapon is solid enough to take you that next step up to the higher one. This complaining seems as pointless to me as complaining "WHAT?! I HAVE TO KILL THINGS WITH MY WEAPON TO MAKE IT STRONGER?! I HATE TRIAL OF MAGIANS AND REFUSE TO DO IT! I QUIT THE GAME UNTIL SE RECOGNIZES MY WEAPON NEEDS TO BE BUFFED AND I DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO GET IT!"

It's a game. If SE just hands you the best stuff in the game for doing nothing, you're not actually playing the game. Go play and get your new weapons.

[Jaall]

(Specific reply to quoted post):
If you think the new weapons are better than your current ones, don't think of it as your old weapon becoming worthless. Your old weapon is solid enough to take you that next step up to the higher one. This complaining seems as pointless to me as complaining "WHAT?! I HAVE TO KILL THINGS WITH MY WEAPON TO MAKE IT STRONGER?! I HATE TRIAL OF MAGIANS AND REFUSE TO DO IT! I QUIT THE GAME UNTIL SE RECOGNIZES MY WEAPON NEEDS TO BE BUFFED AND I DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO GET IT!"

It's a game. If SE just hands you the best stuff in the game for doing nothing, you're not actually playing the game. Go play and get your new weapons.

I think the overall complaint is that the relic weapons haven't been updated and improved yet, but already the new weapons are in the game and out-classing people who have put in the time/effort already. If SE were gonna add them weapons then imo they "should" have upgraded the 99 R/M/E at the same time, but of course, they didn't - hence the complaints.

[Kincard]

People making exhaustive arguments like "IT'S A GAME AND IT SHOULD ALWAYS ADVANCE" seem to have a really selective memory and don't seem to understand that most of the hardcore endgame playerbase will do little more than grumble a little bit and more often than not actually get excited when they get their armor outdated because it offers new builds and such (Though inventory complaints are always present and always justified) but only react the way they do in this thread when it comes to the prestige weapons, because weapons are not swapped situationally nearly as much as armor is, and more importantly, there's no piece of armor that takes months of consistent play in order to obtain.

There is nothing wrong with trying to close the gap between REMs and easier to get weapons. There is a problem with adding weapons that stomp on 99 REMs when they take a fraction of the effort to obtain.

[Luvbunny]

I agree that you need new things to have to keep you motivated and paying your monthly fees. But FFXI has always been good with keeping some of the older things relevant (or situational) and not completely trash all of them. They are mostly doing incremental upgrade overall in the past, or sidegrades. So the completionist will always want the new shiny things, the casuals can do without them, and everyone keep on trucking and getting more logs from those endgame events.

I do think they really did the impossible with SoA though. They created a new expansion that manage to draw so much annoyances from everyone playing it - even those people who used to put a positive spins on everything SE do. As usual, you can give SE a couple more months (end of Summer) or a year (for a decent amount of fixes and content). Or you can just unsubscribe and come back again when you deem the content is worth paying.

[Horadrim]

I'm still really positive about the game. I'm enjoying it even more now, actually. GEO was a class I've wanted for a long time and I like it more than I expected after seeing it was a buffing job instead of being like FFT GEO (granted, it is similar to FF3 GEO with buffs).



People making exhaustive arguments like "IT'S A GAME AND IT SHOULD ALWAYS ADVANCE" seem to have a really selective memory and don't seem to understand that most of the hardcore endgame playerbase will do little more than grumble a little bit and more often than not actually get excited when they get their armor outdated because it offers new builds and such (Though inventory complaints are always present and always justified) but only react the way they do in this thread when it comes to the prestige weapons, because weapons are not swapped situationally nearly as much as armor is, and more importantly, there's no piece of armor that takes months of consistent play in order to obtain.

And people who are being overly sensational about this whole thing seem to have selective memory when it comes to the fact that these are obviously NOT the end game weapons for SoA. Every expansion has released gear or weapons that have been significantly better than most that existed prior to it. The difference now is that SoA is the first 100% end game expansion because the game no longer has a "leveling" player base the way it used to -- so none of the gear has to cater to people below 99.

With them already citing memory issues across the board for the game, adding in a ton of limited, shitty weapons to tied people over until the inevitably epic end game weapons come out seems silly. Skirmish is this expansion's love letter to Assault -- which added tons of incredibly accessories that blew previous accessories out of the water. As missions and the actual end game event is added for SoA, I guarantee you that your truly godmode weapon will take a disgusting amount of time.

How do I know that? Where's my source? I don't need one -- SE wants to keep making money, so they need people to keep playing and in true SE form, that will very likely crop up as them forcing you to spend months and months and months grinding out some arbitrarily difficult event (an event they will balance against the Skirmish weapons, most likely so that R/M/E wielders can't just zerg-rush through it like they do with everything else.) Mythic and eventually Empyrean were designed the way they were because the was a community outcry against the difficulty of building Relics. Abyssea was designed the way it was specifically to handle the issue of leveling becoming an increasingly difficult task and to give a normalized, base end game gear goal for people since going back and coffer hunting/such is useless.

Now Empy +2 and R/M/E are treated as a base requirement for doing anything effectively -- even the new content seems to laugh at anything less than a lv.85 E/M/R (I'm using the 4th best sword for RUN right now as some of the best gear short of Thaumas for it, and can barely contribute at all in Reives the way R/M/E wielders can.) Even still, you have people with some of the best gear in the game getting completely wiped during Reives.

So I ask you, if that's how the best gear in the game is going to handle the INTRO TO ADOULIN course, what do you expect it to do against the actual end game Adoulin stuff that will come out towards the end of the story line?

Sure, they could have released something less dramatic, but honestly, I prefer they make it clear that we're moving into a whole new era of the game's life. And as we approach Year 11 of the games life -- I think its high time for that.

We can't keep spoon feeding people just because they finished old content. And I'm sorry, but Relics, Empy, and Mythics are decidingly old content.

[Crusader81]

Some Relic gear is still good, especially +2, so thats not entirely worthless without Relics.

Salvage II has some great gear for people to go after.

Emps are easier to make than the weapons that were just added.

VW has tons of gear worth getting, if the only reason you were doing it is for plates/cinder/dross then...

I got my VW gear long ago... except for the lol weapons (done qilin over 500 times) I seriously thought ppl were exaggerating when they said they did VW battles 500, 1000 times and still didn't' have weapon, but I was only doing Qilin for a few months and my stones went from 1000+ to 500..

Since then I've obtained all the pieces I needed, but the HMPs and Cinder was a great way for me to keep making money to play and buy new things.. without that.. why bother now?

I was farming dyna, salvage, and VW and making other weapons, and honestly it was the most fun I've had playing XI, because for the 1st time my work put in= great reliable results.
I did Dyna for years, and had very little to show, I never got some pieces because of the horrible LS lot systems. So spending 6+hrs a day when off to farm all the content and in 3-4 months actually make a Relic Weapon was one of the coolest things XI had to offer.
But it appears that's over now. So.. so is my commitment to this game, there's literally nothing left to interest me.

[Asymptotic]

Comparing weapons to accessories is a longshot at best and laughable at worst.

[Kincard]

I have no idea what you are talking about. People who have organized (Usually LSs with tons of REMs around) are crushing Reives under 10 minutes if they coordinate their efforts correctly. Obviously if you play the game like it's still Abyssea you're going to get wiped. REMs are handling the new content about as effectively as they do anywhere else.

They added a bunch of easy-to-get AH weapons that have relatively cheap materials for creation. That is the correct way of closing the gap between REMs and non-REMs. The incorrect way is to make an event that has difficulty on par with Meeble Burrows and hands out weapons competitive or better than REMs.

[Horadrim]

I have no idea what you are talking about. People who have organized (Usually LSs with tons of REMs around) are crushing Reives under 10 minutes if they coordinate their efforts correctly. Obviously if you play the game like it's still Abyssea you're going to get wiped. REMs are handling the new content about as effectively as they do anywhere else.

They added a bunch of easy-to-get AH weapons that have relatively cheap materials for creation. That is the correct way of closing the gap between REMs and non-REMs. The incorrect way is to make an event that has difficulty on par with Meeble Burrows and hands out weapons competitive or better than REMs.

I've seen plenty of people getting destroyed in Reives with solid gear -- not everyone runs around with a swarm of LS mates at ready beckon call. Especially not the droves of formerly retired players who came back primarily for the expansion like myself.

Meanwhile, I guess the point about these just being intro weapons for the content is an irrelevancy for people? Seriously -- if the aim is that there needs to be difficulty attached to the better weapons in the game I can guarantee you that the end game weapons for Seekers won't be so easily acquired -- but at the end of the day it has been a long time coming that SE would stop allowing R/M/E weapons to be the end-all-be-all of the game. What did you expect? For them to eventually allow the tool tips for the weapons to have mile-long bonus lists?

[Luvbunny]

Look - I don't mind with grindy content and repetitive tasks - as long as they are easy to get into, convenient, and very accessible and designed well. Abyssea is pretty much a grind fest, over and over, but it's fun, and it is not dead even as much as we would like and hope that it would just die. People still flocking there, to this day. Everything else is grindy as well, and people still do it. Dynamis, Voidwatch, Meeble, Neo Events, etc - all are about grind, but it goes on fast, you get decent rewards (some good, some are a bunch of logs), you get decent points, etc.

SoA however managed to create the most annoying grind ever and the worst activities that gives you very little incentive and rewards (especially after the adjustment). That is inexcusable. I have no problem for them to stretch SoA for 2-3 years, they always do this anyway, it is expected. But it's a problem when Reive manage to be the most unfun activities, despite having done Besieged, Campaign and Walk of Echoes (which is similar all you can whack battlefield).

So yeah, they better be quick with updates within a month or two, and a bunch of small updates. Lots of people start to see through the BS - and soon no one will singing praises when they figure out that you need 100k or more to enter Skirmish, and the drop are all 0.05% Random. You won't be too thrilled whacking roots for 50-70 times just to get 100k.

[Crusader81]

-- but at the end of the day it has been a long time coming that SE would stop allowing R/M/E weapons to be the end-all-be-all of the game. What did you expect? For them to eventually allow the tool tips for the weapons to have mile-long bonus lists?

Yeah, you know what? actually I did. I expected the game to get minor updates, and more content designed to keep it going longer, and eventually die out as the graphics get outdated and other games become more popular, until they finally cut service and R/E/M would be forever locked at the FFXI best weapons.

OR

I expected SE to finally drop PS2 support, completely overhaul the game, enhance the graphics, servers, and update the UI, get rid of the ridiculous PS2 memory limits, overhaul the battle specs, and aim for more accessible content to reflect the fact that the game is 10 years old, and feels it and even with these changes would still need to be very accessible.

Instead

They've adjusted the game back like it's 2004, made some things accesssible, other things ridiculous, written over the old content to keep the PS2 alive, broken some jobs, buffed others, left things broken for years, fixed things that weren't broken ASAP (useless twilight scythe) I mean REALLY? They did a fast fix to make sure you couldn't use the Scythe on the one thing It was decent on, but now they're going to kill R/E/M? with content you can do with 3-6 people in 30 mins?

[Karbuncle]

I wouldn't call the twilight Scythe fix ASAP, That was in the game for what, Over a year now?

I'd say something like Pets getting Samba bonuses an "ASAP" fix, fking fixed it before i knew it was a thing.

[Crusader81]

I wouldn't call the twilight Scythe fix ASAP, That was in the game for what, Over a year now?

I'd say something like Pets getting Samba bonuses an "ASAP" fix, fking fixed it before i knew it was a thing.

And the content it was being used on, that came out in Dec. little over 3 months ago, and people have only been using the Scythe for way less time than that, but for some reason I will never understand JP felt this was the #1 issue facing FFXI, The GK seems to still work the same.. hmm.

Most Salvage II gear isn't even that great. It's mostly sidegrades and a few good pieces for a few jobs.
And it takes a HELL of a lot longer time to farm than the current SoA weapons/gear

[Concerned4FFxi]

...
We can't keep spoon feeding people just because they finished old content. And I'm sorry, but Relics, Empy, and Mythics are decidingly old content.

I agreed with most of what you said but this. The reason why is they just asked those REMs community to do a huge grind to get to 99 and then a few months later trash them. Thats why it will never be right, dispite anything anyone thinks they can say. Their just is no arguing, SE trolled the shit of REMs (two reasons this game is oddly succesful is, there is a sense of accomplishment applied to long ass tasks to complete COP when it was capped, or make a 99, and the stuff like adaman body and REMs always were good so you knew the year or whatever investment you made was worth you time)and I know many people and myself are either quitting or at the least unsubscribing for months until this is balanced. Come on, these weapons should have been alternatives to REMs, so it would be SREMs, not Skirmish Orly.

[Denmork]

I have a feeling that most of the people crying that relics need to die did not obtain anything other maybe an 85 empy. It's a massive time/gil sink to actually build a relic/mythic/emp to 99 and to have that suddenly made useless is more or less a slap in the face to those that stuck it out. Now what I do hope happens is this will kill the 85 emps once and for all since the idea that a half finished weapon counts as a fully upgraded weapon has gone on a bit to long.

[Yinnyth]

I had perfect attendence in my Dynamis linkshell for about 4 years before I was voted to be the sponsor for my gjallarhorn. After becoming sponsor, it took about half a year to finish. 4 and a half years for my gjallarhorn, plus the months it took me to do the level up trials (before Dynamis changes), and the months it took us to farm up enough marrow for all our relics. Let's just round that off and say 5 years of work are in my gjallarhorn.

Duardabla is better overall. Sure, gjallarballads are awesome, but this stupid, pink harp which takes around a month to get to 90, then 2 months of gil farming to complete stomps all over my 5 year investment. I'm ok with that. I'll just have to get myself a pink harp. Easy stuff compared to what I went through before.

Now, I haven't seen any actual reports of someone obtaining these new weapons. Do we know how long it takes to complete one?

[Karbuncle]

I have a feeling that most of the people crying that relics need to die did not obtain anything other maybe an 85 empy. It's a massive time/gil sink to actually build a relic/mythic/emp to 99 and to have that suddenly made useless is more or less a slap in the face to those that stuck it out. Now what I do hope happens is this will kill the 85 emps once and for all since the idea that a half finished weapon counts as a fully upgraded weapon has gone on a bit to long.

Trust me when i say, I'd not even be an ounce surprised to know anyone who thinks R/M/E should be replaced easily don't even know what a 99 M/R/E is lol.

Sh*t takes a lot of work even with todays dynamis. Getting a 99 is no easy task, in either gil or actually killing ADL... Mythics are a pain in the butt all-together, and Empyreans become real pricey for 95~99. The "R/M/E are so easy now" is no better than the uneducated droll mocking WoW for being easy. Its flat out uninformed or idiotic posts.

Getting a 99 of any of those is still extremely expensive or time consuming, and if they buy everything, they had to farm the gil somehow... Maybe a small small percentage of folk had the gil already, but not everyones a Billionaire from Inflation, the average Relic holder probably farmed the entire thing themselves... Most Mythic owners spent tears and sweat on theirs... Sh*ts not easy... Easier than 75 cap? Sure, "Super dooper ez", no.


I had perfect attendence in my Dynamis linkshell for about 4 years before I was voted to be the sponsor for my gjallarhorn. After becoming sponsor, it took about half a year to finish. 4 and a half years for my gjallarhorn, plus the months it took me to do the level up trials (before Dynamis changes), and the months it took us to farm up enough marrow for all our relics. Let's just round that off and say 5 years of work are in my gjallarhorn.

Duardabla is better overall. Sure, gjallarballads are awesome, but this stupid, pink harp which takes around a month to get to 90, then 2 months of gil farming to complete stomps all over my 5 year investment. I'm ok with that. I'll just have to get myself a pink harp. Easy stuff compared to what I went through before.

Now, I haven't seen any actual reports of someone obtaining these new weapons. Do we know how long it takes to complete one?

This is really an apples/Oranges comparison in some ways.

for 2-handed DD, They only have 1 weapon slot. For you as a BRD, you can fully utilize both of your instruments, nearly simulatinously. Plus, G-Horn is still really boss at 99, even if Daurd has more potential. Ghorn is by no means "Replaced" by Daurd, They actually work best in tandem, not individually.

These new weapons? They dont have he same principle, one is superior, one is not. You can't dual wield Great Swords or Great Katanas... While 1-handed DD do get a little break with this, but when it comes down to it, some of these weapons, even not having that "awesome" 11% ODD/OTD on the Main hand, First hit only proc and (mostly) useless Weaponskill... Still outclass their R and in some cases M/E Counterparts.

Spharai is certainly outclassed, And I'm pretty sure Mandau was outclassed by that D:66 dagger... Sh*ts just bonkers. I mean, Its only by a few %, but people pay billions for an extra % of Damage, people spend years for an extra % of Damage.

You can still equip and fully use your Gjallarhorn, My Mandau? A trophy piece at best as it stands, and while i'm sure their plans to make sure my mandau doesnt "go to waste" are well under-way, I just simply can't hold my breath for it.\

now hold the presses!(P.S this is to no specific quoted persons) I'm not saying I hate the idea of getting a new, better weapon... I've always wanted to enhance my potential even further... I'm just saying all of you p*ssing on R/M/E owners need to GFTO with that crap, They worked as hard for their R/M/E as you did for your Aurore gear. JK I love you Pinkies.

[Yinnyth]

It's always an apples/oranges comparison, unfortunately. There is no perfect parallel. So let's instead pretend that one of these new weapons is a horn that has all songs +5. I'd still be ok with that. My gjallarhorn has served me well up until now, and let's face it, I obtained it by playing a game voluntarily. Something I enjoyed doing.

Plus, I'm certain my gjallarhorn would help me in whatever task is required to obtain this new horn. It gives me a leg up on obtaining the new horn that people without gjallarhorn don't have. If I want to stay endgame, I have to keep obtaining whatever the new best is. I have no delusion that because my bard now has the ultimate instrument that I'm set for life and will always be better than anyone who doesn't put forth those 5 years of grinding Dynamis. In fact, that would be darned boring if I never had something new to strive for.

[Karbuncle]

I have plenty of things to strive for.

Hell, We both have plenty of things to strive for... Its those things that go in the other 11 Equip-able Inventory Slots we have... Keeping 1 Inventory Slot locked wasn't exactly a hauntingly horrible idea in my eyes, Which is why I actually worked on the relic.

To each his own though, I can see its easy for you to move on, Me personally, While I'm excited for these new weapons, I'm admittedly dismayed at what it could spell for my Mandau. I simply cannot detach myself from that weapon so easily. I worked on it because it was the best.. and having 1 good solid inventory slot out of my 11 Equipabble slots was a nice idea to me, it made me feel like I had a goal that I could keep with me.

I spent months with my Brother, and an old GF, as well as some old friends, Lowmanning it... I joined a LS and waited in line (sometimes not so quietly) for my Marrows to upgrade it... I put a lot of effort into it, and in an MMO, I know things get outdated, but Relic weapons always had an air of "Certainty" to them, which is why most players worked on em. This certainty was also supported by several developer posts regarding their power and assurance they would remain top tier.

Well regardless whats done is done and if they do something for it, I'll be happy, I know its whatever and life has to go on... But, yah... Again, Happy for weapons, Sad for my Mandau.

[Concerned4FFxi]

I have a feeling that most of the people crying that relics need to die did not obtain anything other maybe an 85 empy. It's a massive time/gil sink to actually build a relic/mythic/emp to 99 and to have that suddenly made useless is more or less a slap in the face to those that stuck it out. Now what I do hope happens is this will kill the 85 emps once and for all since the idea that a half finished weapon counts as a fully upgraded weapon has gone on a bit to long.
I know were your going this, but I don't agree. It's the same mentality SE has, in a reversed fashion.

Whats so bad about a guy with a 90 emnpyrean, he doesn't want to spend the time to 99, It should be be good, but obviously not a 99 SREM. That's the breaks, but why hate on them. You know how many jobs I was gonna and already have built 85s for? Thats the point, a 90 can be for jobs that you enjoy alot but aren't on your 99 REM to do list.

I'd be grinding in abyssea now if I didm't see it as pointless. Instead I'm on the forums. Eventually, I'll stop being here too. How about the guy who spent all his time in WOE because he couldn't team up for an empyrean? SE screwed him over, right? From day one WOE weapons got the shaft, how you gonna keep WOE relievant when SE operates the way they do?

I'd like a new augment attached to shit that takes forever and a day to make, but gets outdated like WOW gear. The augment can say "troll" or "joke", so I know in advance what I'm in for.

Look, from a money making stand point it, was dumb. Outdating REMs and there events with easy to get and overpowered weapons just speads up the clock on ffxi instead of making it another decade cash cow /facepalm SE. . .

90 empyreans were great for the average endgamer, not the true hardcore or a main job. But their are plenty of relic 99 owners that enjoy their 90 empyreans, letting 90 empyreans drop off is dumb also. There's a balance man, or was. . . it should still be the lowest of the grade of legendary weapons (endgame weapons). When you get that job finally maxed out you can got screw off on another job, build a 90 empyrean and still enjoy that job in endgame. You won't be the best, but people know your there.

On a side note, another thing I think SE did stupidly was give out static augments on the gear and weapons. I mean really, I thought they wanted us to GRIND, making the augments random was a no brainer time sink and they didn't even do that right. They didn't shoot themselves in the foot on this one, they blew their damn legs off !

[Concerned4FFxi]

I have plenty of things to strive for.

Hell, We both have plenty of things to strive for... Its those things that go in the other 11 Equip-able Inventory Slots we have... Keeping 1 Inventory Slot locked wasn't exactly a hauntingly horrible idea in my eyes, Which is why I actually worked on the relic.

To each his own though, I can see its easy for you to move on, Me personally, While I'm excited for these new weapons, I'm admittedly dismayed at what it could spell for my Mandau. I simply cannot detach myself from that weapon so easily. I worked on it because it was the best.. and having 1 good solid inventory slot out of my 11 Equipabble slots was a nice idea to me, it made me feel like I had a goal that I could keep with me.

I spent months with my Brother, and an old GF, as well as some old friends, Lowmanning it... I joined a LS and waited in line (sometimes not so quietly) for my Marrows to upgrade it... I put a lot of effort into it, and in an MMO, I know things get outdated, but Relic weapons always had an air of "Certainty" to them, which is why most players worked on em. This certainty was also supported by several developer posts regarding their power and assurance they would remain top tier.

Well regardless whats done is done and if they do something for it, I'll be happy, I know its whatever and life has to go on... But, yah... Again, Happy for weapons, Sad for my Mandau.

The whole goal thing, that's a good way to explain it. Thing is, and what you said is awesome, but it's that mentality of acceptance that SE uses against the players. Don't pay a few months subscriptions, then see if that REM update don't happen. You spent all that time making it, won't you fight for it just a little?

[Crusader81]

It's always an apples/oranges comparison, unfortunately. There is no perfect parallel. So let's instead pretend that one of these new weapons is a horn that has all songs +5. I'd still be ok with that. My gjallarhorn has served me well up until now, and let's face it, I obtained it by playing a game voluntarily. Something I enjoyed doing.

Plus, I'm certain my gjallarhorn would help me in whatever task is required to obtain this new horn. It gives me a leg up on obtaining the new horn that people without gjallarhorn don't have. If I want to stay endgame, I have to keep obtaining whatever the new best is. I have no delusion that because my bard now has the ultimate instrument that I'm set for life and will always be better than anyone who doesn't put forth those 5 years of grinding Dynamis. In fact, that would be darned boring if I never had something new to strive for.

Oh no no.. Let's actually make this comparable to what's going on...
http://i50.tinypic.com/9bjcxj.jpg >>>>>>>
http://i46.tinypic.com/280qio2.jpg

So let's say they make the 99 horn drop from a 30 min battle 3-6 people,
and it's going to be All songs +7.

K, now how do you feel?

[Demon6324236]

I have a feeling that most of the people crying that relics need to die did not obtain anything other maybe an 85 empy. It's a massive time/gil sink to actually build a relic/mythic/emp to 99 and to have that suddenly made useless is more or less a slap in the face to those that stuck it out. Now what I do hope happens is this will kill the 85 emps once and for all since the idea that a half finished weapon counts as a fully upgraded weapon has gone on a bit to long.Ok so let me get this straight... since what you just said is that RME are useless...

Not absolute best = useless

85 Emp = should be useless

Ok then. First off, you made the weapon, I assume you expected it to stay the best thing ever forever, mistaken judgment in my opinion, you should never think something will be the best forever. On the other hand, you think that 85 Emps should be seen as gimp and horrible, which seems stupid seeing as the real reason for many Emps and Relics are because of their WS and extra attributes. Since some people only want those parts of the weapon, its fine, others who want the weapon to be stronger take it up to 99, which is fine too, you should not have a problem with others who only take their weapons to 85 or 90, especially when the amount of money for a level 99 Emp is so much more work than the earlier stages it seems stupid.

[Demon6324236]

Oh no no.. Let's actually make this comparable to what's going on...
http://i50.tinypic.com/9bjcxj.jpg >>>>>>>
http://i46.tinypic.com/280qio2.jpg

So let's say they make the 99 horn drop from a 30 min battle 3-6 people,
and it's going to be All songs +7.

K, now how do you feel?Oh, so I assume you know how hard Achuka is and have fought him? No? How about anyone you know? So you claim its only a 30 minute battle of 3~6 people, yet you have no info about it, huh...

[Asymptotic]

3-6 People, 36 minutes is Skirmish. You guys are getting content mixed up.

[Crusader81]

Oh, so I assume you know how hard Achuka is and have fought him? No? How about anyone you know? So you claim its only a 30 minute battle of 3~6 people, yet you have no info about it, huh...

No I cancelled my sub today, so I won't be doing any battles. The GS is from 30 min battle and it's 179 to 143.
It really doesn't matter how hard he is or isn't.

He's killable great Tlalpoloani will start showing up everywhere
The droprate is so low nobody bothers
He's impossible like AV, great new pointless content.

Either way I don't regret my decission.

[Demon6324236]

3-6 People, 36 minutes is Skirmish. You guys are getting content mixed up.Was my way of pointing out that he was saying it came from the wrong thing seeing as it comes from Achuka rather than Skirmish.


No I cancelled my sub today, so I won't be doing any battles. The GS is from 30 min battle and it's 179 to 143.
It really doesn't matter how hard he is or isn't.

He's killable great Tlalpoloani will start showing up everywhere
The droprate is so low nobody bothers
He's impossible like AV, great new pointless content.

Either way I don't regret my decission.I find it funny how many people I have been coming across who complain like this about RME being out done in damage, and its sad at the same time. If you got use out of your weapon at all you have no reason to complain, its not as if the weapon was nerfed to be worthless, or as though every weapon in the expansion is better. Its also not as though SE said that RME would be left as they are without any changes in the future, or that most of these weapons have better stats naturally. Lastly, giving up at the start of an expansion is a fools choice, why wait to see what else will come of that money you put in when you can just drop the game and walk away because your precious weapon was out done by something new, and you can either not be bothered with getting another weapon, or think you are entitled to the best thing ever for all your hard work you put in before the new stuff was released.

Fact of the matter is, things change, and this is just another one of those things that change, if these weapons were not stronger then no one would care, after all, this community has already basically cockblocked its players into building Emps/Relics in order to compete in content over the last few years if you want to actually attack the mob, rather than just work as a support. Because of this, anyone looking to get their hands on a shiny new weapon is probably already in possession of an RME, and as such would have no use for a weaker weapon. By actually making these weapons stronger and providing another tier onto RME they are actually making these weapons worth going for to all players currently while the next stage in the RME path will come along later for people to do once again, and at that time, they will possibly become the dominate weapons once more, till then, all players, not simply those without RME, have new weapons to strive for.

[detlef]

As has been brought up in this thread, it is a bit concerning when someone asks how to make money at 99, the answer is invariably "participate in an activity that yields drops that will help to build somebody's R/M/E weapon." Or fishing (that is another story). If something better, cheaper, and easier comes along, will people farm dynamis for gil? Will VW interest die down even further? Will people continue to grind neo-salvage once they finish their +1 pieces? It's something to think about.

Also, if SE intended for R/M/E's to be outclassed (and by outclassed, I mean left in the dust in some cases), why were we allowed to increase their power through magian trials all the way to 99? SE has shown that they care about and are aware of the effort necessary to complete these weapons. This is probably the biggest reason why I think that SE does have something in mind to keep them at or near the top.

[Ravenmore]

Are all of you really this optimistic in regards to how SE will treat this? Or did you miss the point where they said "Would not go to waste" and not even remotely wording it in a way "Will be the best" or "Will be relevant".

I'm not going to sit back like a bear on a parkbench or a skeleton in a chair waiting for SE to deliver on R/E/M Adjustments. They said they would not be enhancing them through ToM "Or any other methods", but said "Have plants to make sure they do not go to waste".

We might not be getting a buff, They could just allow their Benefits to work in the offhand for 1 handers, as far as 2handers, who knows. Either way, they made it clear they dont plan on enhancing them through any methods... rather this means they'll just buff the DMG on them or something entirely different and far more useless and "Consolation prize" is completely up to speculation.

You're speculating positively, the other people don't trust SE on this one. neither side has any proof their speculation is warranted.



And i have to agree with this. Regardless of how difficult Skirmishes are to enter, I shouldn't be able to outclass 99 Relics simply by entering a ~45 mInute event with 3-6 people.

Again how about all the ones that are crap to start with huh were are the buffs to those weapons. Drg got the shaft that relic and emp are only used for the high base dmg and both are out classed by a weapon you could buy pops for for at most 5 to 10 mil. Now the rest of the jobs get to deal with what other jobs had to deal with from the get go.

[Jaall]

People are quitting not just because of this but because SE in general are not just letting the game die but seem to be killing it. I personally have quit cause I'm sick of SE making mistakes and taking months to fix them when I have better things to do than wait for a game to be fixed, especially when there are tons of other games out there. XI used to be fun but it's losing it very quickly and at the moment it's just a giant test server with all the issues and fixes every week. I'm not paying to be a tester because in my opinion this is not a game I enjoy playing anymore, partly because everything I worked hard for is being completely overrun by new easier to obtain gear, but also because SE is putting the priority of outclassing that gear over the other much needed fixes in the game which is just simply taking the p*ss. SE are doing the equivalent of committing suicide, but a part of me reckons it's planned and are just making sure people quit so they can divert the whole team to FFXIV.

[Falseliberty]

I'd like to say in the past month I haven't seen anyone quit... In fact I've seen a bunch of new faces and old faces return.
But on topic I just dropped a whole bunch upgrading my twas to 99 bout month ago and have no regrets. Bring on the new stuffz I say, Also I think we should hold off for a bit xpac is still brand new and It ain't raining these weapons exactly, haven't seen not a soul yet with one.

This thread should prob be revisited in 2-3 months to see where things really stand, not a bunch of rampant speculation please

[Asymptotic]

Was my way of pointing out that he was saying it came from the wrong thing seeing as it comes from Achuka rather than Skirmish.


Achuka H2H are the least of RME99's worries. Have you seen the stuff that's been popping out of Skirmish?

[Asymptotic]

JPs got a BLM / SCH staff with +70 MAB and +18 INT from Skirmish!
Better than Laevateinn for BLM and rivals ToM staves for both! How strong the rivalry depends on the nuke, target's INT, and your MAB from gear. Assuming no additional damage from the +18INT, ToM Staves range from worse (MAB+60 from gear) to slightly better (+4.5% at MAB+100 from gear) to 12% if you can get MAB+200 from gear (this is in addition to BLM's innate MAB, not including it). If the INT+18 was getting you +2% base damage on your nuke, then this new staff is better up to ~77 MAB and ToM are only 6% better at +150 MAB . If the INT+18 is worth 5% damage on your original nuke, those values go up to 105 and down to 3.5% respectively.

So yeah, I would probably pick up the Skirmish Staff on the side while doing Skirmish for other things, and skip over the ToM damage staves. Accessibility of Skirmish is a concern, but that can presumably only increase because SE can't afford to develop content in which 10 people on the server will get to participate once a month due to the raw rarity of access materials. If you think that SE will sustain a new event such that it costs a group 30+ mil just to enter a 30 minute fight that is designed to be entered repeatedly you're out of your mind.

[Yinnyth]

Oh no no.. Let's actually make this comparable to what's going on...
http://i50.tinypic.com/9bjcxj.jpg >>>>>>>
http://i46.tinypic.com/280qio2.jpg

So let's say they make the 99 horn drop from a 30 min battle 3-6 people,
and it's going to be All songs +7.

K, now how do you feel?

I'm still ok with that. I'll just have to get one. Let me be perfectly clear about this: I don't care if it's all songs +100 and you get it by clicking a ??? in Windurst. I would not feel my gjallarhorn was a waste.

Now, the matter of return on investment is another story. I don't want the whole game to be as easy as just doing the next skirmish and calling it good. I want them to release even stronger ones which require a bigger investment on the part of the player.

[Karbuncle]

While I respect your opinion, Its incomprehensible to me. I just keep thinking either you're in crippling denial to the point of mild lunacy, or are immortal since you've pretty much just said you'd be cool tossing 5 years of your life down the drain by clicking a ??? in Windurst.

Then again, I see what you mean. The item you got served you well until now, and replacing it isn't a big deal since the next item will serve you well too... And then you'll replace that.

Just... Wheres the fountain of youth and why haven't you told anyone?

[Yinnyth]

The way I see it, SE is starting to back themselves into a corner with RMEs. No one thinks RMEs should be intruded upon by anything unless it's a new weapon which requires a large time investment. So how do they release better weapons? They have to upgrade RMEs to beat the new weapons every time. Due to this system, Dynamis, Abyssea, Voidwatch, and ToAU content must remain relevant and playable throughout FFXI's lifetime, or the best weapons in the game are unobtainable. One such problem they're running into is the ToAU beastmen kings. Players are so powerful now that they usually kill the beastman king in besieged, so it never appears in its stronghold and people cannot complete their mythic. SE will be forced to revisit this old content and update it so it works with our newfound power. This will continue as long as RMEs are the best.

In addition to that, the time investment of each weapon goes up with each new trial they add. Yes, relics were made vastly easier with the changes to Dynamis, but they're the only one of the weapons to receive such treatment. Mythics are about the same to obtain they've always been, but now you have to do ~1000 kills with your weapon and get 3 drops from pandy. The time investment on it has actually gone up. As long as the game continues, this time investment mess will keep growing and growing until it gets to a point where starting a new one is ludicrous.

So if this is the only way to get away from this vicious cycle, so be it. I'm an endgame player, I'll do whatever it takes to be as well-equipped as I can be. Whether it's slaying a powerful beast, grinding magian trials over and over, or just clicking a ???

Edit: I get the feeling there is an element of superiority at play here as well. People spend a few months grinding a weapon, and then feel like it sets them apart from the newbs- like it makes them special. If the playing field gets leveled and their item which makes them special no longer does, they have nothing left to make them feel superior. I can understand this visceral response, and I must admit to some degree of it myself, but I do not condone it nor think it should be guiding our opinions on the matter.

[Asymptotic]

On the other hand, if you wipe the floor with 99 RME, you essentially invalidate future participation in a large swathe of existing content, which is extremely against FFXI's best interests unless the dev team is going to start releasing large volumes new content every month.

[Asymptotic]

Superiority has nothing to do with it. It's an investment issue. If someone convinces you to invest in a company and then right after you make that investment, the company goes under and the person that convinced you knew this was going to happen - you'd be pretty annoyed yourself. Additionally, you're out the capital that you could have invested in future, more lucrative ventures.

Completing a Mythic in particular is an extremely costly , time-intensive, and arduous investment. The sort of reward for completing such a task in a game should not be "why did I even bother?"

Anyway, as I've said before, they're inexorably going to adjust the LV99 versions of RME. They really do not have much of a choice at this point in the game.

[Horadrim]

Edit: I get the feeling there is an element of superiority at play here as well. People spend a few months grinding a weapon, and then feel like it sets them apart from the newbs- like it makes them special. If the playing field gets leveled and their item which makes them special no longer does, they have nothing left to make them feel superior. I can understand this visceral response, and I must admit to some degree of it myself, but I do not condone it nor think it should be guiding our opinions on the matter.

That's 90% of what the problem is.

Which is why I've stopped participating in this "conversation" for the most part...


[QUOTE=Asymptotic;418592]Superiority has nothing to do with it. It's an investment issue. If someone convinces you to invest in a company and then right after you make that investment, the company goes under and the person that convinced you knew this was going to happen - you'd be pretty annoyed yourself. Additionally, you're out the capital that you could have invested in future, more lucrative ventures.

You couldn't have come up with a worse analogy if you tried.

You know who else knew that the company was going to go under? YOU DID.

Every piece of gear in this game is systematically phased out and made invalid as new gear comes out. That's the whole reason Ixion Cloak is 100-200k now compared to the what, 10 mil it was eons ago? Or why no one runs around brandishing Kirin's Osode like its the freshest swag on the street.

Gear becomes irrelevant after a time. Empyrean weapon users are the only ones really justified in complaining and as people ranted at me when i talked about the Magian trials being annoying -- it only takes a week to break 85 with one of those. Other than that, as I said before, Mythics are almost 5 years old, and Relics are at least 6-7 (and that's being modest, as I can't find a specific date for their release but I'm sure they existed as NA launch).

You've had YEARS to work on those weapons and you decided to wait until 6 months ago to start. That's your fault, not SE's. It's time for the game to move on and you can't blame anyone for you just finishing your new RME until now.

Moreover, they already said they are going to be bringing changes to RME to appease concerns about them becoming outdated/irrelevant. Seriously, if all of the sensationalism even necessary when you don't even now what RME will look like after the changes?

To fit with your analogy, if you invested in a company specializing in Floppy Disk drives knowing that a another company has ALREADY ANNOUNCED A NEW PRODUCT that you eventually found out was the Compact Disc drive -- its your fault for not realizing that the big announcement talking about new products and major changes could include something better than the already aged piece of tech you decided to back. You can't blame them for innovating just because you lack foresight. The very first thing i thought after the expansions were announced is that the gear was going to be crazy good.

[Asymptotic]

It's been stated over
and over
and over
and over
and over
and over


and over
and over


and over

and over and over and over


and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and over

That gear and prestige weapons are subject and have always been subject to different expectations and paradigms.

Thisisnotpeoplecomplainingabouttheirtandavacrackowsbeingmadeuselessbyskadi+1feet. Nooneiswhiningthatthurandautchapeauovertookkhepribonnetforaspecificpurposeorthatthetabardisbetterthantheirhardearnedtesserasaioforexenterator. Nooneiscomplainingthatkariyehhaubertclosedthegapforpeoplewhodon'thavephorcys.

People are annoyed that their 200-600M investments that SE has continually encouraged them to work for up to this point are in jeopardy . I don't care if they release new stuff that's great, but the max-level versions of prestige weapon should have performance - as SE stated - of the "highest caliber." Should there be competitive equipment from new content and people who don't want to invest in 99 RME ? OF COURSE! And I highly encourage it!

I don't know why I bother arguing with you people because they've already all-but-stated that they're going to adjust the 99 versions (alone, noyoudontgetanupgradetoyour85masamunesorry) so the debate is purely academic. But sure, go on thinking they can sustain subscriptions with new content alone andor that removing the motivation for participating in existing 99 events is a good idea for the game economically (either for SE or for in-game).

[Yinnyth]

How then do you propose SE releases stronger weapons for stronger content? Just keep releasing ways to further upgrade RMEs step-by-step so they always stay strongest? That increases the total time investment involved in the weapons and helps create yet another insurmountable wall for new players.

[Horadrim]

Childish, asinine post

Posting like a 5 year old doesn't make your point any more valid.

Meanwhile -- again -- it has already been stated that adjustments are coming to the RME weapons, which is why you and your all-caps-I'm-going-to-bold-asinine-components-of-my-post rage is premature at best.

And frankly, no.

There actually shouldn't be gear competes with end game gear -- the whole point of it being powerful is that you invest time and energy. However, that doesn't mean you should get to camp on one piece of gear you could have made 3 years ago and still have it be as potent as the latest and greatest. Especially when each day that passes and each new piece of kit that is released drastically simplifies the process through which it can be developed. Each time they add new weapons and each time they release new near gear, it becomes that much easier to get the older stuff whether you like it or not. The only reason every other kid and his mother isn't running around with a mythic is because of the time restrictions and limitations on assault tags. Trust me that most people would have burned through it if they had converted the tag system to match Abyssea/Meebles (and the only reason they haven't is because NNI is attached to the same tag system.)

Relics, Mythics, and Empyreans aren't hard -- they haven't been since well before 99 became the common level for the FFXI population. They are busy work and with each patch they become more and more of an eye roll to finish.

Eventually, its not fair to RME wielders themselves that the weapons should be the best. Eventually there needs to be new content and a new ultimate weapon that takes effort to make -- and that's what the new end game will be.

Fun fact, Skirmish is NOT end game. It is something for you to work on and tie you over -- just like Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, and Walk of Echoes, the new end game (And the new ultimate weapons attributed to it) are a few patched down the line and I can promise you that they will be just as much of a headache as legit RME wielders want it to be for something that will make Skirmish weapons (Which, mind you, have no real special effects) look like a joke.

Skirmish isn't going to take people away from existing content. I'm pretty damn sure there are plenty of people doing Voidwatch, which is a fucking joke, for things like Borealis even though they have RME weapons -- and don't even begin to tell me that Borealis is somehow better that Ragnarok 99 or Cald 99. It's because not everyone is going to build end game weapons -- that's just the thick of it.

And there will still be people doing old content just like how you see dynamis/limbus/walk of echoes/abyssea seals/+2 shouts daily. The difference will be that it will take less of them to get the content done because higher level gear will help simplify the process.

[detlef]

You realize that at each stage, your RME is not already the best. You have to work to get it from 75 to 80, and from 80 to 85 and so on. The weapons have been updated essentially once time the level cap has been raised, which only 5 times. It's not like the update comes and your 95 suddenly becomes 99 with improved stats and traits.

But if you've worked to keep your weapon current (85 empyrean doesn't count) then you have every right to feel cheated when something better (and not just better, but ridiculously better in some cases) comes along and stomps on your weapon. Especially when you take into account the way Skirmish is accessed and defeated.

I do not even have a personal stake in this. But I do have friends who are wondering what SE is thinking and hoping for a Resolution if you get my drift.

[Denmork]

That's 90% of what the problem is.

Which is why I've stopped participating in this "conversation" for the most part...

You do know that the whole point of relics was to make something not everyone can have right? The idea is to give the hardest of the hardcore a goal to make their character just a little better then the casual player. People seem to romanticize relic as if they were some super powered game changer weapon when in truth they weren't.

[Karbuncle]

Horadrim, Buddy, It has nothing to do with Superiority in my situation. I don't care if i feel less superior, Its the fact i poured hundreds of millions of gil, and a lot of time and effort into it.

Trivializing the reality of this achievement then hapharzadly accusing them of a superiority complex, Its not only way more childish than anything Asymptom said, its flat out just annoying and inconsiderate entirely.

Thats not to you Mr. Taru, I see your points, Even though I loathe that you would even mention superiority, as thats essentially what we call an Ad hominem, which is beneath you. Some of these people might be upset their E-Peen is hurt, the other 98% of us? Just more upset our time investment has gone to waste and is being trivialized by folk

You cannot compare R/M/E to Armor or accessories, They are not in the same paradigm. R/M/E Were always the weapons that were "Top tier" and were, as I've said before, Designed to be a Solid, Staple piece if you happen to obtain it. These items were introduced to be the best... you can't just roll in saying things like "HER HER SHULD OF XPECTED IT BROZ" when from their introduction they were designed to be the only solid piece of equipment you got, rivaled only by other Legendary Weapons.

That's why people are upset. Not that its being replaced, but that its being replaced by something several people have only a week after release, and more are sure to easily come. No matter how rare Skirmish pieces are to the individual, as a server, there are going to be a steady stream of pieces, for either the gil-having group, or those seeking their own. It certainly won't take as long as a Mythic, or 99 Relic/Emp.

I'm not saying they'll rain from the sky, But its about your investment. Unless SE tells me theres an NPC that'll accept my Relic in return for a year of my life and ~250mil, I fell robbed. I like many others bothered investing in one of these legendaries because we liked the idea of a Staple, "best" Weapon. We could always replace our armor, accessories, even our offhand... but that mainhand was why we worked on a relic.

I didn't use it to fell superior, I got my Mandau because i love Thief... I never think of it as a Status Symbol, only as something i worked real hard on, the one thing in the game i felt gave me a sense of accomplishment and longevity

EDIT: LONGEVITY IS THE WORD.

[detlef]

How then do you propose SE releases stronger weapons for stronger content? Just keep releasing ways to further upgrade RMEs step-by-step so they always stay strongest? That increases the total time investment involved in the weapons and helps create yet another insurmountable wall for new players.Your "insurmountable wall" comment is contradicted by the poster below you who is absolutely right: R/M/E is busywork that *anybody* can accomplish. Anybody and everybody in this day and age of FFXI can make one of these. The only thing limiting you is whether you are willing to put the effort in. This applies even to mythics.

As for what you've suggested? Yes, I do believe that SE should keep these weapons in line with the best. Especially when the new best consists of direct, apparently guaranteed drops from a 30 minute, 6-man event.

[Yinnyth]

I'm not referring to what RMEs are right now, as far as completion goes, I'm talking about the future. With each additional trial tacked on, completing a relic weapon becomes more and more time consuming. 10 years from now if they allow relics to stay in the lead, the line of trials you would have to complete would be more than most people would be willing to read through, let alone complete.

A new player looking at obtaining currency, doing kills, getting marrow, plus whatever else is done to keep relics in the lead would more-than-likely just give up.

[Zagen]

I didn't use it to fell superior, I got my Mandau because i love Thief... I never think of it as a Status Symbol, only as something i worked real hard on, the one thing in the game i felt gave me a sense of accomplishment and foundation... I had a better word there but i forgot what its called.

How exactly did the new weapons replace the "status symbol" of Mandau or any R/E/M for that matter?

[Asymptotic]

(D66 Delay 183 Critical Hit Rate +5% daggers from 3-6main meeble-burrows difficulty content isn't the way to go about it, that's for sure. It's subpar to AM3 Terpsichore by less than the amount of DPS you lose maintaining AM3!)

It's really an investment issue at the core of things (although that's not to say that ego issues do not exacerabte it.
Gear has never been a really "safe" investment but that's at least in part because the relative investment has always been rather low.
At any given moment, SE could turn around and invalidate a particular piece of armor or accessory which is part of the reason I personally limit my level of investment in armor. If a particular piece of armor costs me over 15m , I don't consider the investment risk worth the cost.

Prestige weapons have always been considered to be "safe" investments (for those in which investent was "worth it" in the first place) largely in part due to the level of effort and commitment required to obtain them. (100-400m is no joke to the average player, who will most likely never see that sum of gil at once).
Whereas pieces of gear are more like clothing (fittingly) or appliances where the investment is comparatively low, Relics and Mythics have been viewed to be more analogous with houses (except you cannot sell them to recoup losses where applicable). When you buy a TV or a cell phone or a jacket, it may be slightly annoying if something better comes out - but you are also well aware that the probability that your investment will be displaced and depreciate in relative value is rather high. But since the relative investment is low, it's often a cost worth the risk (and in some cases, you can recoup a portion of your losses by selling to the consumer level below you when you're ready to upgrade).
Relics and Mythics have an extremely high investment cost, but this has been balanced by their continued high-caliber performance and thus the investment and return have been regarded as "safe" and people will obviously defend the value of high-cost investments they considered to be "safe" (this is why homeowners associations exist and why the 7-11 near my house cannot stay open for 24 hours, because the neighborhood adjacent will not let them in fear that it will decrease their property values - things like this happen all the time).

The safety, security of these investments was implied and supported by the development team's content introductions up to SoA, and this is the main reason why people are upset. (Of course the main reason to be upset is that it has te potential to essentially uproot an entire aspect of the game economy without really providing a replacement).

[detlef]

I'm not referring to what RMEs are right now, as far as completion goes, I'm talking about the future. With each additional trial tacked on, completing a relic weapon becomes more and more time consuming. 10 years from now if they allow relics to stay in the lead, the line of trials you would have to complete would be more than most people would be willing to read through, let alone complete.

A new player looking at obtaining currency, doing kills, getting marrow, plus whatever else is done to keep relics in the lead would more-than-likely just give up.Is it really worth worrying about new players not bothering to make a relic weapon in 2023?

[Karbuncle]

How exactly did the new weapons replace the "status symbol" of Mandau or any R/E/M for that matter?

I said it wasn't a status symbol to me, but something I worked hard on and was proud of. it wasn't so others could envy, but so i could feel happy with myself.

Plus, You should really look at the weapons and their augments, It'll answer that question for you... While few of them come out Clear 100% on the top, A lot of them crush the crap out of the 90~95 Empyrean, and even some of their 99 Relic counterparts.

Asymptotic Showed a particular good example of the Dagger that makes me cringe when i see it, and also the same one i said I would be more than happy to obtain. At least go back and make an effort to read my posts, I'm getting bored of speaking in circles about how I'm actually not disappointed in this so much as I am sad for my Mandau and the work i put into it.

[Yinnyth]

Not just new players, but players who have yet to obtain that specific weapon. If I want a mandau for my bard, I would have to put forth how much time to get it functional?

[Asymptotic]

Depends on your resources.

[Zagen]

I said it wasn't a status symbol to me, but something I worked hard on and was proud of. it wasn't so others could envy, but so i could feel happy with myself.

Plus, You should really look at the weapons and their augments, It'll answer that question for you... While few of them come out Clear 100% on the top, A lot of them crush the crap out of the 90~95 Empyrean, and even some of their 99 Relic counterparts.

Asymptotic Showed a particular good example of the Dagger that makes me cringe when i see it, and also the same one i said I would be more than happy to obtain. At least go back and make an effort to read my posts, I'm getting bored of speaking in circles about how I'm actually not disappointed in this so much as I am sad for my Mandau and the work i put into it.

I should have been more clear I didn't mean you thought it was a status symbol to others or over others but one to you yourself. That symbolism will never change no matter what weapon is released.

[Asymptotic]

Perhaps someone needs to call the Naakuals and ask them if they can be defeated with sentimental value.

[Zagen]

Perhaps someone needs to call the Naakuals and ask them if they can be defeated with sentimental value.
If there was no sentimental value in obtaining X item people wouldn't care about Y item. You'd get Y (might even use X to get it) and forget about using X.

[Asymptotic]

Alternatively , people can be annoyed over wasted time/resources/capital. Is that a difficult concept to grasp ?

[Zagen]

Alternatively , people can be annoyed over wasted time/resources/capital. Is that a difficult concept to grasp ?

Complaining about wasting your time doing something designed to waste your time, I love it!

[Yinnyth]

I don't think it's so much that their time was wasted as much as their investment has lost value. The time was not wasted. My empies got several years of use out of me. Even if they get replaced, they were not wasted. However, they have lost value, and compared to other weapons, they required more work to complete.

[Asymptotic]

Complaining about wasting your time doing something designed to waste your time, I love it!

Completely missing the point , I love it!

[Asymptotic]

I don't think it's so much that their time was wasted as much as their investment has lost value. The time was not wasted. My empies got several years of use out of me. Even if they get replaced, they were not wasted. However, they have lost value, and compared to other weapons, they required more work to complete.

And someone working on a mythic with 80000 Ichor and 27000 alexandrite turned in that they've slowly accumulated? Also , since you used empies in plural, I assume you are talking about LV90 and below Empyreans?

[Yinnyth]

I have everything for my mythic except alexandrite. I'm only 1/3 done with alexandrite. Still not sweating it.

And yeah, most of my empies are still only 90. Does that completely invalidate my opinion on the topic?

[detlef]

If you're talking about Carnwenhan that's not really applicable because its song duration effect is unique and is highly unlikely to be replaced by another weapon.

[Karbuncle]

I should have been more clear I didn't mean you thought it was a status symbol to others or over others but one to you yourself. That symbolism will never change no matter what weapon is released.

That's true, Thanks for making it clear. Well, Lets put it this way, I like my accomplishment and While it won't ever truly take that away from me, I can't say i like how it feels to have that accomplishment sh*t on and rubbed in my face. I hope that explains it well, Cause I honestly got no better way to explain it.

While I'll always have the achievement, Theres more reasons to my upsetness, and thats all the time and effort i put into it and it may or may not become a mannequin ornament, when the whole reason I made it was so I could have a solid, permanent investment, which is what R/M/E were, for the longest time :\


I have everything for my mythic except alexandrite. I'm only 1/3 done with alexandrite. Still not sweating it.

And yeah, most of my empies are still only 90. Does that completely invalidate my opinion on the topic?

Doesn't invalidate it, Only that the effort required to take Empyreans to 99 eclipses getting it to 90, so its really hard to compare it to folks who have a 99.

On the other hand, the fact You're pretty much 75% Done with a Mythic and are still like "lulz oh well!", I've made my descision.

you're bonkers
Looney.
Crazy.
nutcake.
insane.
Geoffrey.

No but really I envy your ability to just move on like that, How old are you? I have a feeling when you start to get older you'll be cranky like us.

[Horadrim]

I said it wasn't a status symbol to me, but something I worked hard on and was proud of. it wasn't so others could envy, but so i could feel happy with myself.

Plus, You should really look at the weapons and their augments, It'll answer that question for you... While few of them come out Clear 100% on the top, A lot of them crush the crap out of the 90~95 Empyrean, and even some of their 99 Relic counterparts.

Asymptotic Showed a particular good example of the Dagger that makes me cringe when i see it, and also the same one i said I would be more than happy to obtain. At least go back and make an effort to read my posts, I'm getting bored of speaking in circles about how I'm actually not disappointed in this so much as I am sad for my Mandau and the work i put into it.

I can understand and appreciate this -- and I feel people who put in that work should be compensated for it.

I just don't know that keeping those weapons as the pent-ultimate is how it should be handled. I'd prefer if the lv.99 EXP/Merit/Advancement system incorporate them and allow you to have them as equippable traits or something, so that any weapon you use benefits somehow from the fact you finished your Mandau.

Something like that would not only set RME wielders apart from those who didn't bother with them, but gives us ALL reasons to go back and get whichever of the three we haven't finished to 99. Keeps both old and new players working on the old content as well as removes the negative emotions attached to the necessary advancement of the game's equipment technology.

EDIT:

With the advent of the "Rune" concept, I'd love to see slots for "Talismen" or "Anywhere you go" Atma-like status you equip like BLU spells but that come from weapons/gear you extra the traits from. Each RME.99 could have its own unique attribute (or collection of attributes) lifted directly from the weapon. (In the case of the Mandau +40 ATK and Afterglow: Poison) as well as letting you permanently learn your RME WS's.

The game needs to respect and reward people who finished these weapons but I just don't see the point in pretending there's anything special about them beyond sentimental value when drunk and on a bet you could finish one in a few weeks if you really wanted to. (I almost unlocked Verethragna i na week, and only stopped because i started working on G.Sword skill pre-RUN)

[Zumi]

I had perfect attendence in my Dynamis linkshell for about 4 years before I was voted to be the sponsor for my gjallarhorn. After becoming sponsor, it took about half a year to finish. 4 and a half years for my gjallarhorn, plus the months it took me to do the level up trials (before Dynamis changes), and the months it took us to farm up enough marrow for all our relics. Let's just round that off and say 5 years of work are in my gjallarhorn.

Duardabla is better overall. Sure, gjallarballads are awesome, but this stupid, pink harp which takes around a month to get to 90, then 2 months of gil farming to complete stomps all over my 5 year investment. I'm ok with that. I'll just have to get myself a pink harp. Easy stuff compared to what I went through before.

Now, I haven't seen any actual reports of someone obtaining these new weapons. Do we know how long it takes to complete one?

The best brds in the game will have, relic horn, empy harp, and mythic dagger. They didn't invalidate your weapon because horn and harp can be used in combination with each other and further enhanced by the mythic dagger.

[Karbuncle]

I think what it boils down to is R/M/E Systems were fun, long term goals with a sense of a singular permanent weapon in a game of ever evolving equipment, some people found this very very interesting, others didn't. Even games like Guild Wars 2 have incorporated this...

Let me turn the tables here...I am kinda curious, How would you guys take it if Relics were buffed to go with these new weapons? I.E

Mandau getting DMG:68

Ragnarok getting DMG:188

Would any of these changes make Skirmish Weapons less "Awesome" In your guys eyes even if Relics still outclassed them? Or does the fact they outclass R/M/E the only thing that interest you in them? Thats the thing I think, the only reason people like this is because they have the potential to beat R/M/E.

Or am I wrong? If R/M/E were buffed to once again be better, Would that invalidate your interest in these weapons? If Relics were still better by ~3-5%, Would you no longer value these weapons amazing potential? I don't think these weapons were intended to completely deface 99R/M/E, Only close the gap so the "Equipment level" wasn't so inbalanced that all people wanted for their shout groups were R/M/E Owners. I just think they overdid it a little and didnt realize how upset a lot of their 99 owners would be.

I think these weapons should take dumps on 95 R/M/E, but 99 Weapons should remain on top by a small %, even if its just 1-3%.

I think this is their overall goal since they only mentioned 99 R/M/E would receive adjustments, and I'm okay with that, mostly cause I'm only in possession of 1 Relic, and I don't care to get anymore... So I llove the idea of my other ~21 Jobs being useful If i can get my hands on these new weapons.

[Yinnyth]

Oh, I'm plenty cranky about a lot of things. My opinion on this topic just happens to differ with the majority's opinion. Does that make me crazy? That's another matter that's dependant on opinion, and since I'm provoking the majority, I wouldn't be shocked if I were labeled as such.

If one of the new weapons were a horn with +10 to songs, I would be less angry about "wasting my time getting a gjallarhorn", and more happy that I get to go achieve a gear upgrade.

[detlef]

Oh, I'm plenty cranky about a lot of things. My opinion on this topic just happens to differ with the majority's opinion. Does that make me crazy? That's another matter that's dependant on opinion, and since I'm provoking the majority, I wouldn't be shocked if I were labeled as such.

If one of the new weapons were a horn with +10 to songs, I would be less angry about "wasting my time getting a gjallarhorn", and more happy that I get to go achieve a gear upgrade.As you said, most people who went to the trouble of getting a relic would disagree with you. I've had my Ghorn for almost 5 years and there its presence in my inventory is both for stats and for sentimentality. I'd say 80% of the people who helped me get it have moved on. It would pain me greatly if it were replaced by something.

The stats are one thing. It is the best at what it does after all. But really, it's a combination of what it does and what it represents that makes it important to me. So for me, I would definitely not want to toss something like that to the side and go for the next big thing. Rather, I'd like to somehow have the best of both worlds and have the best and most meaningful weapon. Somehow. I'm sure my experience is fairly unique as you see some people crank out weapon after weapon.

Of course, if they did make a new super-ghorn on adderall, I'd sigh and formulate a plan to obtain it. But I don't think it's the best way to go about it.

[Hercule]

Don't worry everyone, SE fix is in coming soon! and it will kick ass! :p

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/330086RagnarokLevel99SOA.jpg

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/447010NirvanaLevel99SOA.jpg

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/142556KannagiLevel99SOA.jpg

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/Believe.jpg

[Yinnyth]

Wait... what? Did I miss something?

[Hercule]

Wait... what? Did I miss something?

I've made this for fun :p

[Zagen]

Let me turn the tables here...I am kinda curious, How would you guys take it if Relics were buffed to go with these new weapons? I.E

Mandau getting DMG:68

Ragnarok getting DMG:188

Would any of these changes make Skirmish Weapons less "Awesome" In your guys eyes even if Relics still outclassed them?
I wouldn't care, even if they were just updated to that damage without doing anything extra. While it means less people overall to possibly do Skirmish with, there's more than enough who play multiple jobs or at the very least would be interested in doing new content for the sake of it being new instead of doing old stuff to build another R/E/M.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I think what it boils down to is R/M/E Systems were fun, long term goals

If they were "fun, long term goals," words like "work" and "sacrifice" wouldn't be thrown around so much in this thread. Don't pretend that getting one is anything but a soul-crushing grind, as befitted their intended role as status symbols.

[Siiri]

I think it would have been fine for these to have been better than 95 r/e/m, to be better than 99 r/e/m if they are is a huge issue for me. SE nerfs twilight scythe in the name of balance, then releases weapons you can get from a short bcnm involving 6 people that are better than weapons people worked years on? I know r/e/m got easier, but farming umbral marrow low man, getting 1500 hmp and 60 dross etc, are nothing to sneeze at. Let's not even mention mythics/

Also, their idea for the drop is to come from a bcnm in which you get the entry items from helm and doing reives and soul pyres? Can you imagine if there was a legendary weapon that obsoleted r/e/m from Wings of the Goddess that was dropped by a bcnm you gained entry to by endlessly doing campaign? Is that even fun to helm and do reives over and over?

One thing I always liked about this game there was a little something for everyone. Like I said, I would be fine if this was an additional option for R/E/M and pulse weapons. Even if it came in at 95 level and there were like 3-6 months of quests, trials, bcnms to advance it to the state that are better than 99 r/e/m. But to release it better???

I am not a game marketer, maybe they feel this is a good idea. I see people coming back, I also see friends who have worked on these weapons logging in less and less already. I am not going to type in all caps and threaten anything, I am sure SE doesn't care. I will probably still play because I play as a relaxation in the evening from work, caring for elderly parents , etc. If it wasn't for my friends in game that we talk to everyone night etc I would probably call it now though.

Well , I would hope SE addresses this more, one way or another. I guess we have to wait for the JP to make enough of a fuss to get more information on what they are thinking.

[Karbuncle]

If they were "fun, long term goals," words like "work" and "sacrifice" wouldn't be thrown around so much in this thread. Don't pretend that getting one is anything but a soul-crushing grind, as befitted their intended role as status symbols.

It was fun getting it when I had friends to do it with, Only became a chore when I had to Solo occasionally. Each person achieved their in their own way. Mine took a lot of work, but work can be fun if you're with the right people.

its not as black and white as you see it.

[Yinnyth]

Also, their idea for the drop is to come from a bcnm in which you get the entry items from helm and doing reives and soul pyres? Can you imagine if there was a legendary weapon that obsoleted r/e/m from Wings of the Goddess that was dropped by a bcnm you gained entry to by endlessly doing campaign? Is that even fun to helm and do reives over and over?

It's no worse than endlessly grinding salvage, dynamis, VW.

Attitude and point of view have a lot to do with what is and isn't "fun". Ever drag someone to a party who really didn't want to be there? The party is no fun for them even though the overwhelming majority of people there are having a good time.

The same thing happens here. If you convince yourself ahead of time that it's not fun, it really doesn't matter how entertaining it actually is because nothing is going to pull you out of that funk.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Each person achieved their in their own way.

Coins for some, giant frozen heads for everyone else.

[Asymptotic]

I have everything for my mythic except alexandrite. I'm only 1/3 done with alexandrite. Still not sweating it.

And yeah, most of my empies are still only 90. Does that completely invalidate my opinion on the topic?

Well , it doesn't invalidate your opinion, but it does hurt your argument.

Complaint: We feel shafted because we feel like the significant investment we made and work we put into making LV99 Relics, Mythics, and Empyreans was for naught.
Response: Well I don't feel like my 90 Empyreans, which are smaller investments by orders of magnitude, were a waste because I got a lot of use out of them.

It's all about the effort - reward ratio. Of course you don't feel shafted on your 90 Empyreans because they required less effort to complete.


People invested in 99 RMEs because they were "safe" investments, no one -with a few exceptions (mostly uninformed or fanatical people) - without capped Tav glitch or cruor gil would blow 200-300+ mil on a subpar weapon just for the sentiment. This is particularly notable in the Vanadiel Census - the harder a weapon class is to obtain, the less likely people are to make "noncompetitive" weapons in that class.

[Asymptotic]

It's no worse than endlessly grinding salvage, dynamis, VW.

Attitude and point of view have a lot to do with what is and isn't "fun". Ever drag someone to a party who really didn't want to be there? The party is no fun for them even though the overwhelming majority of people there are having a good time.

The same thing happens here. If you convince yourself ahead of time that it's not fun, it really doesn't matter how entertaining it actually is because nothing is going to pull you out of that funk.

If you're going to make the argument that the majority of the player base finds endless HELM more entertaining and / or less unpleasant than Dynamis farming ... then I don't know why I've been giving you the assumption of any sort of credibility in the first place.

The only conclusion that I can possibly make from your posts is that the only point of view you're capable of understanding is your own.

[Siiri]

It's no worse than endlessly grinding salvage, dynamis, VW.

Attitude and point of view have a lot to do with what is and isn't "fun". Ever drag someone to a party who really didn't want to be there? The party is no fun for them even though the overwhelming majority of people there are having a good time.

The same thing happens here. If you convince yourself ahead of time that it's not fun, it really doesn't matter how entertaining it actually is because nothing is going to pull you out of that funk.

I would disagree. If i didn't feel like doing dyna I did salvage to sell alex. Likewise I didn't care about heavy metal plates so I could do vw and sell those. Variety is the spice of life or game. Now if these weapons are as broke as people saying, you have one event. I don't think that is cool personally and will detract from game. Also, the drops to enter the bcnm seem to be lucked based at this point. Again, not cool. I prefer a goal I can work towards, not RNG. Why I liked salvage and dyna and even NNI. We plugged away at 80 wins and got all our gear. Took a bit but it was fun.

Lol, someone just said in linkshell they have 100k bayld. Everyone was like wow, that sounds really boring. It is not just me. We are on vent and everyone laughing at the ridiculousness of doing reives all the time. YMMV of course. Just my feelings and those around me.

[Asymptotic]

I would disagree. If i didn't feel like doing dyna I did salvage to sell alex. Likewise I didn't care about heavy metal plates so I could do vw and sell those. Variety is the spice of life or game. Now if these weapons are as broke as people saying, you have one event. I don't think that is cool personally and will detract from game. Also, the drops to enter the bcnm seem to be lucked based at this point. Again, not cool. I prefer a goal I can work towards, not RNG. Why I liked salvage and dyna and even NNI. We plugged away at 80 wins and got all our gear. Took a bit but it was fun.

Lol, someone just said in linkshell they have 100k bayld. Everyone was like wow, that sounds really boring. It is not just me. We are on vent and everyone laughing at the ridiculousness of doing reives all the time. YMMV of course. Just my feelings and those around me.


No! You don't seem to understand how things work! Yinnyth isn't dissatisfied so everything is ship-shape and if you're displeased with it it's just because you have a bad attitude.

[Yinnyth]

I would disagree. If i didn't feel like doing dyna I did salvage to sell alex. Likewise I didn't care about heavy metal plates so I could do vw and sell those. Variety is the spice of life or game. Now if these weapons are as broke as people saying, you have one event. I don't think that is cool personally and will detract from game. Also, the drops to enter the bcnm seem to be lucked based at this point. Again, not cool. I prefer a goal I can work towards, not RNG. Why I liked salvage and dyna and even NNI. We plugged away at 80 wins and got all our gear. Took a bit but it was fun.

Lol, someone just said in linkshell they have 100k bayld. Everyone was like wow, that sounds really boring. It is not just me. We are on vent and everyone laughing at the ridiculousness of doing reives all the time. YMMV of course. Just my feelings and those around me.

I suppose you're right about the variety. If these weapons are as strong as they seem to be, if they're as easy to obtain as people claim they are, if they never upgrade RMEs, the number of people doing other events would certainly decrease because they'd feel they're not worthwhile. We have very little information on how difficult these weapons are to obtain, however. And SE has mentioned they intend to do something with RMEs.

I think Dynamis, Abyssea, VW, and Salvage will all die out someday. Just not anytime too soon. Perhaps a few years from now. I have my doubts that these weapons spell the end for older events and gear.

[Asymptotic]

SE has a strong motivation to keep people doing those events. It's really not in their interest to kill them off.

[CrAZYVIC]

This is temporary

Square wish we play the new content, if they dont make interesing items, the people will not go to play the expansion.

They wish we break the routine and slow down Dynamis / VW / Salvaje for a while. For now Seekers 100%. In about 1 year im sure they will come with another upgrade for Our legendary weapons and the New seekers weps will be what now a lv 85 emp or a walk of echoes are

We need to be patient. this is just a strategy for move all people.

Another important point. 1/10 players Can make a R/E to lv 99 and 1/100 players can make a Mythic. The hardcore players are the Minority and the casual are most. Even if the hardcores are the most loyal and the players will stick until the servers Shuting down. The money is what move the direction of every MMRPG and the devs will follow the Money, even if they piss their hardcore players sadly. a MMRPG is ruled with Cold heart, Not with emotions.

Im absolutely sure, they planed all this. Have you Seen Pop Camate to this topic to calm to the people? No.. They knew this would happen, many people would be dissapointed.

[Crusader81]

Don't worry everyone, SE fix is in coming soon! and it will kick ass! :p

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/330086RagnarokLevel99SOA.jpg

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/447010NirvanaLevel99SOA.jpg

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/142556KannagiLevel99SOA.jpg

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/Believe.jpg

That's about exactly what they'd have to add to make this game worth it, sadly they have not.

Not sure why people are saying just wait a year or two, and they'll fix things. I mean do you know how ridiculous that sounds? How long do people think this game has left? Might as well add a cash shop now and make the new relic cost $144 as that's what you'd be paying anyhow.

In a years time I'm going to be so far into FFXIV ARR I'm not sure I'll ever think about this game again. I was hoping to spend my time in SoA before XIV's launch having fun, and even built a Relic over the past 5 months to prepare for SoA.

How disappointed I was... not just this Relic deal (which is huge) but that all the content just isn't fun, it's monotonous, and for all I can tell eventually somethings will happen? If people keep grinding, Although I noticed the colonization rate is still 0 in many places on my server and in Ceizak has already gone to a stand still, so I'm not sure enough players will stick it out for that that happen.

[Fermion]

This is temporary

Square wish we play the new content, if they dont make interesing items, the people will not go to play the expansion.

They wish we break the routine and slow down Dynamis / VW / Salvaje for a while. For now Seekers 100%. In about 1 year im sure they will come with another upgrade for Our legendary weapons and the New seekers weps will be what now a lv 85 emp or a walk of echoes are

We need to be patient. this is just a strategy for move all people.

Another important point. 1/10 players Can make a R/E to lv 99 and 1/100 players can make a Mythic. The hardcore players are the Minority and the casual are most. Even if the hardcores are the most loyal and the players will stick until the servers Shuting down. The money is what move the direction of every MMRPG and the devs will follow the Money, even if they piss their hardcore players sadly. a MMRPG is ruled with Cold heart, Not with emotions.

Im absolutely sure, they planed all this. Have you Seen Pop Camate to this topic to calm to the people? No.. They knew this would happen, many people would be dissapointed.

That was all well-said (even though it's obvious English isn't your first language, the thought was conveyed nicely), but I'm sure it's falling on deaf ears. The playerbase did this to themselves.

On forums people exaggerate and use overly dramatic language. For instance, let's say weapon A does 5% more damage than weapon B, honestly, it's not a big deal and barely noticeable. But lots of people act as if weapon B is totally worthless. I've literally heard weapon B called "lolwep", "worthless", "gimp", "waste of time", I could go on and on. Then someone who has a weak background in math comes along and reads the posts, and actually takes the rhetoric literally. Hence R/E/M only shouts for Meeble Burrows for example.

[Jaall]

It's basically just got the point where you genuinely have to be the best to do any event, all because of people's attitudes. However though, I don't feel gimping R/M/E is the way to go about fixing that, and yes I say gimping, because most of these new weapons s**t all over them in terms of dmg output, especially the H2H. Items that need so much effort and time to obtain should always be the best until such a time as they're easier to get. Simple SE, if you want to outclass relics, hand them out to people left right and centre by making 5x more currency drop in dyna, 5x more plates etc and remove every quest leaving only half the alex needed to create a mythic. Only when it's that easy to get R/M/E will people be satisfied that you've outclassed them because at this point they are still very hard to get in comparison. Sort it out SE... unless of course your ultimate aim is to kill FFXI off.

[Kincard]

I feel the need to mention that even if you didn't care about them outdating old weapons, I for one sure as hell am not interested in them pushing forward their only relevant content as "whack roots for 15 hours until you either roll the lottery for a dungeon entry piece or have enough points for 1 attempt at an NM".

In b4 someone says "b-but you can still do that old content if you really wanted to", implying that I could get people to do Garrison or Eco Warrior without shouting for hours days or 6-boxing it by myself.

[Lotto]

Almost 250 comments and not a single answers from the devs? I thought they opened this forum to ease the communication. I guess gaijin don't deserve to have informations.

[Luvbunny]

I feel the need to mention that even if you didn't care about them outdating old weapons, I for one sure as hell am not interested in them pushing forward their only relevant content as "whack roots for 15 hours until you either roll the lottery for a dungeon entry piece or have enough points for 1 attempt at an NM".

Yes it's pretty much whack da roots for 15 hours or so. Granted they didn't design reive to spammed 15 hours nonstop. It's suppose to be casual log and whack (unless you wiped - which often happen all the time). They seriously need to revise SoA content to be more fun. But the other problem is that most people don't seem to know how to work in a team together. Meeble is one of the "teamwork" oriented content and pretty much abandoned by players. So I do worry that even if they open all the SoA contents, people will leave in droves because they have no clue on how to maximize their jobs role in the group. It's not just "yay gonna whack it" and go zerg whatever coming your way. Utilizing your jobs ability and coming with basic strategy is important.

Abyssea is great at getting you to 99 so fast - but the major problem is a lot of people are too lazy to test their jobs and figure out a way to maximize its potential and understand crowd control and what a teamwork means. You are suppose to take advantage of the atma and cruor buff to go out there and test your macro etc dealing with Abyssea NM as your test drive. Now we are paying for the consequences of AFK leeching to 99 without even spending time to learn the job on your own - and how to play properly.

[Kincard]

I don't know what you're talking about. Plenty of people did Meebles, its just a lot of the people that cared already got everything they wanted from it or they don't care to try because the drop rates are too awful (Abatteur/Gusterion/etc), which is compounded by the fact that they're dropped items and you need 5-26 tickets in order to do a single boss fight, unless you pay your way up.

[Kitkat]

I'm conflicted by this, but I also took a break after LS died and my dream of finishing 2 relics to 99 along with it. I now have a half finished Ragnarok and a 95 mandau that leaves me wondering if finishing it up to 99 will be pointless in the end. Suffice to say SE has not been very smart on how they have "adjusted" relics on the road up to 99, and now people are expecting this very same entity to make good on a promise to make sure R/E/M aren't left to the wayside by new weapons with higher base damage?

Hell, I'm still waiting the day they ninja fix hidden 2~3x damage to work on all hits of the weapon (IE Double attack, Triple attack, Quadruple attack) similar to how ODD aftermath works on all hits of the weapon. How about making visible stats work in offhand too? They had them working for a while, granted hidden effects didn't, but the +att certainly did....but that was found to be a bug and quickly corrected.

These are the very same people you're expecting to come round and say "Yeah, you're right we tried to pull a fast one but you guys didn't bite so we'll make it right." More than likely they will make minor changes to how the weapon reacts in standard melee, but not make any base dmg increases, then say "It does similar damage output over time so we've lived up to our end of the deal. Enjoy!" Took taking Relic all the way up to 99 just to get appropriate WS changes, up to 95 to get proc rate increases (that still only work on first hit of every round with weapon), and in the end to get them to 99 it went back to individual collection instead of kills needed (artificially extending the amount of time people work on it).

After watching SE dangle the carrot in front of us in the past I can only see this "promise" as a similar carrot. One which, by the time we actually get it, will be pliable, rotting, and taste just as bad as if we were to eat dirt. This is how much faith I have in SE...anyone expecting something phenomenal to take place is most likely high on something.

[Asymptotic]

Posting like a 5 year old doesn't make your point any more valid.
.

I thought maybe if I brought the level of my posts down you might actually understand, but you continue to spout nonsense; that's fine though because it doesn't really matter! JPs finally got annoyed when the staff marginalizing Nirvana popped up (lol priorities?)

It's impossible to explain leisure-consumption models or investment security to people who have no grasp of simple economic concepts. People generally take an economic rational approach to building relics / mythics (census data supports this, you can pretty much predict the content-applicability of a weapon by considering the ratio of that weapon to total members of that class compared to the ratio of # completed weapons to 99 to the ratio of completed weapons of that type versus the toal ratio of # of weapons of that class completed to 99) with a little more analysis you can predict the relative cost of these weapons based on the provided data of completion levels.

If people just built RME99 because "they can and it's not hard" then you would expect a more equal distribution based on job popularity. The distribution is, however, heavily skewed toward RME99 which are considered "useful." (Monk, for example represents 10% of reported main job but only 5% of mythics while WHM represents 13% of reported main jobs and 17% of mythics - compare to 99 empyreans (we'll restrict to keep the relative cost a bit closer and the proportions are 19% and 0.2% respectively - if it's "easy" to generate the capital for these investments you would not expect this sort of skewness) so there's some sort of economic rationality coming into the decision making process. People don't prioritize when there isn't a cost for not doing so.

There are different kinds of difficulty. Things don't have to require explicitly solving a blue sky catastrophe bifurcation system to be difficult. Incurring significant cost is a form of difficulty, as only certain people are able to do it.

[Rustic]

People dat mined the new patch and there was already some weapons with higher damage then 99 relics.

I know they wanted gear progression in SoA but does anyone else think that relics should still have the highest damage at this point in the game?

Generic higher damage ratings definitely don't equal "better than relic". They're good looking weapons, don't get me wrong...but without the extra stats/WS stuff, they're not Relic level weapons.

[Jaall]

Generic higher damage ratings definitely don't equal "better than relic". They're good looking weapons, don't get me wrong...but without the extra stats/WS stuff, they're not Relic level weapons.

Unfortunately for most of them they are better regardless of extra stats on R/M/E. Damage on a weapon plays a huge part on the amount of damage done overall, and half of the relics have acc+ which isn't ever too much of an issue. There are some places where the extra acc might be needed but tbh having a weapon that isn't as powerful as a newly released, easier to get weapon and is only "useful" in rare situations doesn't justify the cost of getting one at all. I would even go as far as saying it doesn't even justify getting a 99 emp because the time cost of that would be greater than the need for one.

Edit - Mythics are a different story cause a lot of them are situational anyway, and are very very rare due to that fact and the fact they are very expensive. However, they were also on par with relics and emp damage-wise so were worth the extra money if you really wanted to perfect a job. That's changed now though, more so than R/E will change and I feel sorry for a lot of mythic owners if SE don't fix this.

[Asymptotic]

Tlapalalapalapalolla actually do come out ahead of Spharai 99 in most cases for MNK, comparison with Kenkonken is a bit more difficult for PUP. Kenkonken 99 is hard to beat if PUP is not receiving marches, but with marches up the issue will come down to whether Tlapalapalapa comes ahead for DoT+Tp gain vs. how terrible PUP is at using Ho-Oh-I-Choose-You-Dropkick.

[Rustic]

The WoW route is kinda annoying how all your gear gets obsoleted every expansion. I see why they do it though to get people to work toward getting new better gear to give them a reason to play. SE already did it once, our salvage and king gear was obsoleted pretty fast by some easy to get abyssea AF3 gear.

But the FFXI playerbase loves their r/e/m weapons and probably wouldn't be that happy about them getting outdated so fast. These cost us over 100m gil.

Three guesses why people are waiting. If the Adoulin weapons are "good enough" or later additions to the expansion give you a true upgrade, why would you burn all that money now?

And -all- MMOs eventually render "top tier" gear obsolete. Otherwise, there's no reason to do new content if what you have is better. R/E/M's will, in time, be a *ahem* relic of the past, just like we don't all run around in Sky gear anymore to feel elite.

[Asymptotic]

And -all- MMOs eventually render "top tier" gear obsolete. Otherwise, there's no reason to do new content if what you have is better. R/E/M's will, in time, be a *ahem* relic of the past, just like we don't all run around in Sky gear anymore to feel elite.

Investment level -- rarely if ever does "top tier" gear in other MMOs come anywhere close to requiring the incurred cost of FFXI's 99 RMEs.

[Jaall]

Three guesses why people are waiting. If the Adoulin weapons are "good enough" or later additions to the expansion give you a true upgrade, why would you burn all that money now?

And -all- MMOs eventually render "top tier" gear obsolete. Otherwise, there's no reason to do new content if what you have is better. R/E/M's will, in time, be a *ahem* relic of the past, just like we don't all run around in Sky gear anymore to feel elite.

Need I say, R/M/E are in no way on the same difficulty level as sky gear even back in the day. These weapons are completely superior in difficulty to any armour now and before, they have always been a lot harder to get and always will be unless SE deliberately up the drop rates of the items needed to make one.

[SinisterJoint]

I'm not sure what's the mentality behind this post, it's either trolling or not really thinking.

If new higher base dmg weapon is easier to obtain than R/E/M, anyone with R/E/M can obtain new higher base dmg weapon . They CAN have best weapon in this game still, even if it's no longer R/E/M. You honestly think obtaining new ex/rare will be a problem for ppl with all the best gears?

Except when their hard earned R/E/M, which often takes months or years to obtain, is no longer useful because another weapon beats it, it's like a slap in the face and just asking players to rage quit and nothing more.

For anyone with no R/E/M, once all the R/E/M owner rage quit, let's see whether we still have enough player base in this game to keep content going w

If new ex/rare is harder to obtain than R/E/M, then none R/E/M owners most likely won't be able to obtain it too.

Either way, I don't see how it benefits this game, more like killing this game faster.

lol @ thinking r/e/m is some be all end all. so what, the dmg on the new stuff is higher... you will get over it.

[SinisterJoint]

Need I say, R/M/E are in no way on the same difficulty level as sky gear even back in the day. These weapons are completely superior in difficulty to any armour now and before, they have always been a lot harder to get and always will be unless SE deliberately up the drop rates of the items needed to make one.

and?

just because they are hard to obtain doesn't mean they should be the best in game for 10 years (a little exaggeration) This type of mentality right here is why FFXI doesn't see many new players....

New expac, let it get outdated so people can move on... give us something new to work towards.