New weapons with higher base damage then relics

[Karbuncle]

and?

just because they are hard to obtain doesn't mean they should be the best in game for 10 years (a little exaggeration) This type of mentality right here is why FFXI doesn't see many new players....

New expac, let it get outdated so people can move on... give us something new to work towards.

Actually the reason this MMO doesn't see a lot of new players is because the over-saturated MMO Market, Its over 10 years old, and It doesn't advertise.

It has nothing to do with Relic weapons. .

Honestly, I can't see why people can't be happy/okay with the other 11 out of 12 Equipable item slots being upgradeable at any given expansion, and having just 1 item, out of all of your equipment, be the best it can be, and have that sense of permanency.

The only legitimate and reasonable excuse for wanting RME weapons "Closed in on" is the fact endgame content has become pretty much "RME Only" and thats making them more required than an upgrade for the dedicated. Which I think only 1-2 of you have mentioned.

Rest of the rationale from a few of you just... You make it sound like RME Picked on you in highschool and now you're going to the reunion and find out they're a methhead. IDK how better to explain it other than "once i was butthurt and now im happy cause the thing that made me butthurt is no longer as powerful as i remember it!"

Some, not all of you. Most of you have some pretty logical arguments i can actually understand to the end.

[Horadrim]

Actually the reason this MMO doesn't see a lot of new players is because the over-saturated MMO Market, Its over 10 years old, and It doesn't advertise.

It has nothing to do with Relic weapons. Get an A for trying though.

Truth.
I don't like giving out A's for trying, though... Makes the nerds uppity.


I thought maybe if I brought the level of my posts down you might actually understand, but you continue to spout nonsense; that's fine though because it doesn't really matter! JPs finally got annoyed when the staff marginalizing Nirvana popped up (lol priorities?)

The fact that you seem to specialize in personal attacks over logic is exactly why I make a point of not giving a shit about anything you have to say.

I give my opinion and my view point of the game's purported directional change (which isn't really validly supported until we see what the RME changes will be). I don't make a show of dogging anyone who has their RME nor do I call them idiots for wanting to keep their weapons powerful for sake of previous effort.

I merely say what I think and stand behind it. I have repeatedly referenced my respect for, and appreciation of the value people place in, the work they invested in their weapons (with particular focus on people who have had their RME for longer than a few months, because anyone who just finished their weapon only months before the release of the expansion can't really be surprised by the revelation of new gear) while simultaneously citing my disagreement that it should instantaneously allow them to be the best even as far as 8+ years after the original work was done.

If you feel that my ability to understand and agree with a sentiment, but still have a generally opposed personal opinion with regards to how that sentiment should be addressed is "spouting nonsense," that's your problem, not mine. If you feel you have to "dumb down" your posts in order to get someone who will not haphazardly sway their opinion to match yours, that is your problem, not mine. And if you honestly feel that yours is the only logical, respectable, and understandable view point in existence then that is your intellectual failing.

Not mine.

So for future reference, spare yourself the trouble of trying to appeal to your misinterpretation of other people's intellectual capacity just because they don't acquiesce to your opinion (which, taken without consideration of the source is a perfectly acceptable one). I'm not here to deal with people who don't know how to have a conversation without acting like they're in grade school, I'm here to talk with people like Karbuncle who can actually put forward their viewpoints without constantly sounding like an asshole. Next time you feel the need to address me personally in one of your asinine posts, take a moment to look around you. Absorb for the moment that everything around is composed of millions of molecules. Now consider that every single one of those millions upon billions of molecules represents a fuck I don't give about you or anything you have going on in that trite, belittling head of yours.

Speaking of things actually worth responding to...


Or am I wrong? If R/M/E were buffed to once again be better, Would that invalidate your interest in these weapons? If Relics were still better by ~3-5%, Would you no longer value these weapons amazing potential? I don't think these weapons were intended to completely deface 99R/M/E, Only close the gap so the "Equipment level" wasn't so inbalanced that all people wanted for their shout groups were R/M/E Owners. I just think they overdid it a little and didnt realize how upset a lot of their 99 owners would be.

I don't think you're wrong. I mean, I've definitely come around to a better understand of the reasons why the whole issue is more upsetting to most people than it is to me. Question just becomes how do you fix the problem?

I think it might be more of a developmental road block for SE than we might realize -- after all, how do you create new and exciting content with competitive rewards if you can't make gear notably better than old content? Again, mind you that Skirmish is not end game and there will be a set of hard-to-build weapons coming, undoubtly, even if you only use the fact that RUN and GEO don't have their own unique weapons yet as a basis for the assumption.

My interpretation, as I stated earlier, is that SE's primary goal was to hit the reset button and create a baseline above the old world gear to use as the starting point for a new gear arms race. We really just have to wait and see what's around the corner.

[hiko]

Oh no no.. Let's actually make this comparable to what's going on...
http://i50.tinypic.com/9bjcxj.jpg >>>>>>>
http://i46.tinypic.com/280qio2.jpg

So let's say they make the 99 horn drop from a 30 min battle 3-6 people,
and it's going to be All songs +7.

K, now how do you feel?
this is not skirmish H2H

3-6 People, 36 minutes is Skirmish. You guys are getting content mixed up.
the guy above got the loot mixed


Achuka H2H are the least of RME99's worries. Have you seen the stuff that's been popping out of Skirmish?
the weapons that "shit over 99RME" the most are their least worries?


(D66 Delay 183 Critical Hit Rate +5% daggers from 3-6main meeble-burrows difficulty content isn't the way to go about it, that's for sure. It's subpar to AM3 Terpsichore by less than the amount of DPS you lose maintaining AM3!)
I dont think the extra dmg on WS-SA-TA out do mandau +40atk, AM, relic proc and even less if the crit rate isn't weapon only

the fun part are the people that cry the louder are the BANDWAGONRAGNADARK because their new bandwagon weapon is no longer the bandwagon weapon to go.

+ if weapon where < to RME nobody would care about them and do the event, then complain because their is nothing to do
and don't say it would have been weapons for more casuals because of the "RME or GTFO of my PUG" mentality of this game

I think doing weapon that beat RME then upgrade RME so they get back on top is a good way to go

[Crusader81]

this is not skirmish H2H

the guy above got the loot mixed


the weapons that "shit over 99RME" the most are their least worries?


I dont think the extra dmg on WS-SA-TA out do mandau +40atk, AM, relic proc and even less if the crit rate isn't weapon only

the fun part are the people that cry the louder are the BANDWAGONRAGNADARK because their new bandwagon weapon is no longer the bandwagon weapon to go.

+ if weapon where < to RME nobody would care about them and do the event, then complain because their is nothing to do
and don't say it would have been weapons for more casuals because of the "RME or GTFO of my PUG" mentality of this game

I think doing weapon that beat RME then upgrade RME so they get back on top is a good way to go

the numbers have already been put into spreadsheets and it's over 10% difference.

[Karbuncle]

I don't think you're wrong. I mean, I've definitely come around to a better understand of the reasons why the whole issue is more upsetting to most people than it is to me. Question just becomes how do you fix the problem?

I think it might be more of a developmental road block for SE than we might realize -- after all, how do you create new and exciting content with competitive rewards if you can't make gear notably better than old content? Again, mind you that Skirmish is not end game and there will be a set of hard-to-build weapons coming, undoubtly, even if you only use the fact that RUN and GEO don't have their own unique weapons yet as a basis for the assumption.

My interpretation, as I stated earlier, is that SE's primary goal was to hit the reset button and create a baseline above the old world gear to use as the starting point for a new gear arms race. We really just have to wait and see what's around the corner.

I think it also comes down to the fact that they are kinda at a roadblock on power. I think what they need to do is make these weapons great and comparable to 95RME's, which is what most people can obtain with little difficulty. If they kill off the RME Market, They're essetentially killing Abyssea, 80% of ToAU, and Dynamis in exchange for Skirmish, which is 1,000x Harder to enter, and a lot shorter in duration. Which i think is a bad move.

Honestly, With a lot of the weapons... they set the DMG Too low to begin with, which did back them into a wall in terms of where they could go with new weapons if they wanted to keep RME on top. I can think of two solutions.

1) Allow them to be offhanded to their full Potential. This will fix 1handed issues for me, I have no problem offhanding my Mandau if it gave me 40 attack and Mercy Stroke.

2) Make newer weapons comparable with the ~95 Versions, so a few updates down they can release weapons comparible to the ~99's, But at the same time, Buff the Weaponskills that come with 99 Relics a little more (Say from 40% to 55% or so) so that while the Merit WS's will validate the Non-RME's, the RMEs will still have their special uses with a powerful WS. IDK About Mythic/Empyrean WS's though, some are great, some aren't...

Theres a lot of adjustments that would help balance this issue so that 99 RME Owners aren't going to be p*ssed, cause the ones who are like "Dont worry be happy" are in the minority when it comes to responses on this issues... which is understandable.

I think Allowing RME to be Augmented would be really nice too.. Perhaps allow us to access a quest to permanently unlock their WSs if we have the 99 Version, Which would help with a lot of them (Not all of them)... This coincides with allowing 1-handed Weapons to be offhanded to full benefit...

I can think of quite a few ways to close the gap while not making RME terrible... But SE implementing it is another story... I hope they have plans that make sense, and keep my Mandau relevant, but at the same time, I really hope they close the gap between ~95RME and NOrmal weapons too, cause 90% of my Jobs are unwanted because i don't possess Ukko's Fury, or Victory Smite... or a R/M... So half my jobs are just useless and dead because everyone wants RME only.

While i could easily go get one of those weapons, I don't think that changes the fact RME should not be "Required", and I do like the new direction these weapons are taking, I just hope they compensate the people who spent the time and gil to get theirs to 99.

[Horadrim]

I can think of quite a few ways to close the gap while not making RME terrible... But SE implementing it is another story... I hope they have plans that make sense, and keep my Mandau relevant, but at the same time, I really hope they close the gap between ~95RME and NOrmal weapons too, cause 90% of my Jobs are unwanted because i don't possess Ukko's Fury, or Victory Smite... or a R/M... So half my jobs are just useless and dead because everyone wants RME only.


And I'd say this was the thought behind the drastic nature of the Skirmish gear.

I don't know... I guess the biggest issue in the entire problem is that we're dealing with SE and this isn't a conversation/debate between people who can actually effect changes.

They are probably plans that are decently acceptable clashing with their secretive nature like a parent who has bought a marvelous gift for their child but doesn't want to ruin the surprise of the birthday to make up for accidentally forgetting to pick the kid up from cancelled soccer practice in the middle of a thunderstorm.


While i could easily go get one of those weapons, I don't think that changes the fact RME should not be "Required", and I do like the new direction these weapons are taking, I just hope they compensate the people who spent the time and gil to get theirs to 99.

I hope so as well. It'll give me a reason to want to finish my RMEs to 99.

[Jaall]

It seems that SE wanted to wait and see what the community did and how easily they got the new weapons before updating the 99 weapons so that they could adjust them accordingly but it has probably proved to be one of their biggest risks to date, which is saying something! Due to the amount of people who have put the time and effort into playing (mainly because the majority of players still playing this 10+ year old game are of the "hardcore" variety, or should I say, less casual) the amount of people being effected by this change is a lot wider than when Abyssea was introduced, and even back then there were a lot of complaints. I just don't think SE have much room to take risks anymore but they seem to think so.

[Xantavia]

I've always wanted to enhance my potential even further... I'm just saying all of you p*ssing on R/M/E owners need to GFTO with that crap, They worked as hard for their R/M/E as you did for your Aurore gear. JK I love you Pinkies.
I'm glad somebody brought this up. Remember when the abyssea base sets came out and all of sudden gear people had spent a long time obtaining got tossed out. Buy a full set of pearle gear and no need to touch sky. And yet, with synergy, people have found a new use thanks to augments. I personally don't have a close tie to these weapons (though I would love to have a mandau and an almace, but meh, effort), but I think some more time needs to pass before everyone just gives up.

[Asymptotic]

Like I've said all along:

1.) Releasing weapons that trump RME95 and below and/or situationally trump RME99 is a good thing
2.) But, the relative caliber of RME99 should be preserved because these players have invested a lot and incurred a significant cost and eliminating the motivation to participate in the content is a bad thing for the game's livelihood and economy.

Achuka H2H are a good example. My Kenkonken are still better most of the time, but I still need* the Naakual weapon if I'm teaming up with a BRD. It's just a shame that it stomps all over Spharai 99 for MNK, but SE could just pump up the base Damage of 99 RME and call it a day. There are obviously more thoughtful adjustments they could do but in my experience they take least effort path most of the time.


*want

[Crusader81]

You know what pisses me off the most, They were heading in the direction of making R/E/M more accessible each year, until the past couple years you could actually make one without dozens of people.
And rather than make it even more accessible they chose to completely dump over them, they could have made them much much easier to obtain and people could still do the content, and enjoy finally finishing the R/E/M they've always wanted, and then Released gear 10% better

Instead they keep the content hard and break them anyway, and JUST like the Twilight Scythe situation where I started to seriously question the thinking of the current XI team, I saw this crap coming, I thought when I saw how close R/E/M already were to the current DMG of 90+ weapons being released (ahem Mandau) I thought "boy that sure doesn't give them much room in the future"

This game is over 10 years old, you don't just walk in, in the games "golden years" and crap over 10 years of content. I mean I saw the end of this game coming, but If you told me it would be like this 5 years ago I would have said "There is absolutely no way in hell they'd ever do that, everyone would quit"

And to the people who say "hey just wait, they'll fix all this" all I have to say is FFXIV forums are literally full of people who left when upset with Abyssea and never will come back, I tried to tell them it was different now, and they said "no way am I ever going back" so the damage is already being/been done.

[Yinnyth]

I'm going to sound very rude here, and I apologize for that. It is hard for me to change who I am, or my style of writing.


And to the people who say "hey just wait, they'll fix all this" all I have to say is FFXIV forums are literally full of people who left when upset with Abyssea and never will come back, I tried to tell them it was different now, and they said "no way am I ever going back" so the damage is already being/been done.

The damage is done, and yet you're still here. If I'm not mistaken, didn't you claim previously that you cancelled your subscription?
No I cancelled my sub today, so I won't be doing any battles. The GS is from 30 min battle and it's 179 to 143.
It really doesn't matter how hard he is or isn't.

He's killable great Tlalpoloani will start showing up everywhere
The droprate is so low nobody bothers
He's impossible like AV, great new pointless content.

Either way I don't regret my decission.

So why does your opinion matter to a project you no longer support? You're like a shareholder who no longer holds a share. Sure, you used to pay SE, but if what you said is true, you've cut all ties. And yet you linger. What do you hope to accomplish here?

[Jaall]

I'm going to sound very rude here, and I apologize for that. It is hard for me to change who I am, or my style of writing.



The damage is done, and yet you're still here. If I'm not mistaken, didn't you claim previously that you cancelled your subscription?

So why does your opinion matter to a project you no longer support? You're like a shareholder who no longer holds a share. Sure, you used to pay SE, but if what you said is true, you've cut all ties. And yet you linger. What do you hope to accomplish here?

Um... I cancelled my subscription 2 weeks ago but that doesn't mean I "have" to cut out FFXI from my life entirely. This game has been a big part of my life for 10 years so naturally I do wonder how the game is and the direction it's going. Just because you don't play doesn't mean you're not entitled to an opinion especially when nothings changed since quitting, and who's to say he won't come back if SE fixes all the problems? While I agree with some things crusader says, some I highly disagree with but that doesn't change the fact that saying someone is no longer entitled to an opinion just because their subscription is on hold is just stupid. Why should we pay for a game we don't currently enjoy? We all have a choice and I think personally some people need to wake up and realise that if you don't like it, you're not forced to play it day in day out and you're not forced to pay for the new expansions let alone the subscription fee itself.

Edit - Also the fact you compare playing XI to holding a share in a company very much describes the direction of the game and how actually unhealthy it is. The main difference being that we get very little out of "buying our shares" and have no chance of ever getting our money back. You'd rarely find a shareholder buying shares in a company just to have their say in how it's run and say they own shares in said company.

[Yinnyth]

Why should we pay for a game we don't currently enjoy? We all have a choice and I think personally some people need to wake up and realise that if you don't like it, you're not forced to play it day in day out and you're not forced to pay for the new expansions let alone the subscription fee itself.

I completely agree with that. But I still enjoy the game.

If you no longer choose to support FFXI, cool, that's your choice, and I support your right to have that choice. When a dead person tries to tell the living how to live, that's when I have a problem.

Edit: I should mention that I'm not trying to say you're not entitled to an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's not a matter of whether or not you're allowed to have opinions. It's a matter of the weight your opinion carries. I currently pay SE, and I intend to continue doing so into the unforseen future. Should your opinion shape the game as much as mine if you do not pay SE and have no plans to pay SE?

[Jaall]

That's a completely different matter because we are still living and we all have a choice to come back, and most probably will -if- SE fix the game in the correct way. Most people will stay on here to look for such a time to come back, and they are all entitled to an opinion until such changes are made. Saying someone isn't entitled to an opinion is just very very wrong as everyone is, if you choose to listen to their opinion is your choice. And besides we're not telling you how to play the game, we're saying that the people who complain can always just quit. We're simply stating the obvious if you like but clearly it's not so obvious to most FFXI players, or they are all complaining over nothing which is most likely the case. I don't understand why people would complain so strongly about a game being so broken yet still pay money to be unhappy, but I guess I'll never understand the mind set of the few people like that.

And in reply to your edit, yes everyones opinions should have equal weight because we are potential customers and have the potential to pay them, and given that we have a right. Also considering I've been playing for 10 years+ I've paid a considerable amount of money to play this game therefore I have just as much right as anyone else to have a say whether I'm still paying them or not. And anyway, this is SE, there is very little chance your say will actually have an effect so quit being butthurt that people have a different opinion to yours.

[SinisterJoint]

Actually the reason this MMO doesn't see a lot of new players is because the over-saturated MMO Market, Its over 10 years old, and It doesn't advertise.

It has nothing to do with Relic weapons. .

Honestly, I can't see why people can't be happy/okay with the other 11 out of 12 Equipable item slots being upgradeable at any given expansion, and having just 1 item, out of all of your equipment, be the best it can be, and have that sense of permanency.

The only legitimate and reasonable excuse for wanting RME weapons "Closed in on" is the fact endgame content has become pretty much "RME Only" and thats making them more required than an upgrade for the dedicated. Which I think only 1-2 of you have mentioned.

Rest of the rationale from a few of you just... You make it sound like RME Picked on you in highschool and now you're going to the reunion and find out they're a methhead. IDK how better to explain it other than "once i was butthurt and now im happy cause the thing that made me butthurt is no longer as powerful as i remember it!"

Some, not all of you. Most of you have some pretty logical arguments i can actually understand to the end.

Reading comprehension is your friend. I never said relic weapons were the reason, I said the mentality that something needs to be the best forever. It doesn't, and idk what end game you're talking about because many people who don't have them are doing end game just fine.

The rationale from a few of you is "na na nah boo boo I have a relic and youuuuu donnnnt" I don't know how better to explain it than "once I was happy but now i'm butthurt because my relic is getting outdated"

[Karbuncle]

Reading comprehension is your friend. I never said relic weapons were the reason, I said the mentality that something needs to be the best forever. It doesn't, and idk what end game you're talking about because many people who don't have them are doing end game just fine.

I didn't say it was impossible. Also, It has nothing to do with Reading Comprehension, Your sentence structure is poor, and unclear, in regards to that sentence, its completely up to speculation rather you meant the "Mentality" of, quote, "10 year old weapons" staying powerful, or the "Mentality" we think they should.

It can be interpreted both ways, and in fact, leans more toward the RME being best, rather than the opinion of those who think it is, since those people weren't even mentioned in your entire post, simply that you believe RME Should not remain best.

Now, On to the really hard to understand part. I said, Endgame has become "RME Only" as far as shout groups go, Tell me when you see a NNI Shout that asks for a non RME DD, or a Botulus Rex/Ig-Alima/Provenance who wants your Laceratrice or your Bizane-Osafune, or lastly a Legion Shout who wants your Fire Magian H2h or Brawny Ardagas.

i understand you misinterpreted my RME Only quote, as I didn't mention it in that post, only in past posts regarding this subject, that it was in regards to the current endgame being heavily shout based for a lot of people, and it was in regards to that specific area of endgame (Shout pick-ups). So i won't smash you for reading comprehension, as I can understand it could easily be misinterpreted both ways.

Back to weapons, The only exception to these rules could be Murasamemaru for SAM, and a few other select weapons for other jobs, but for the most part, If you don't have a RME, in the fights i named, You won't be invited to DD if you're going with a shout group.

Not that its >impossible<, but that its unlikely a shout group is going to recruit you if they don't think you're the "Best". (Which is actually quite silly cause 85EMPs take fk all worth of effort and most 85 owners are pants on head retarded most of the time... at least ukonvasara/Vereth owners anyway)


The rationale from a few of you is "na na nah boo boo I have a relic and youuuuu donnnnt" I don't know how better to explain it than "once I was happy but now i'm butthurt because my relic is getting outdated"

No argument here, I get that vibe from quite a few players regarding it. Its not a secret Elitist do actually exist, So if you'd step back and take a moment to realize this, You would see just cause these people exist, doesn't make you any better of a person for your, just as rude, attitude toward this situations, as not all Relic Owners are like this, and they don't deserve the "HA HA TAKE THAT" Attitude you're giving it.

I do kinda like how you didn't deny it though.

[SinisterJoint]

I didn't say it was impossible. Also, It has nothing to do with Reading Comprehension, Your sentence structure is poor, and unclear, in regards to that sentence, its completely up to speculation rather you meant the "Mentality" of, quote, "10 year old weapons" staying powerful, or the "Mentality" we think they should.

It can be interpreted both ways, and in fact, leans more toward the RME being best, rather than the opinion of those who think it is, since those people weren't even mentioned in your entire post, simply that you believe RME Should not remain best.

Now, On to the really hard to understand part. I said, Endgame has become "RME Only" as far as shout groups go, Tell me when you see a NNI Shout that asks for a non RME DD, or a Botulus Rex/Ig-Alima/Provenance who wants your Laceratrice or your Bizane-Osafune, or lastly a Legion Shout who wants your Fire Magian H2h or Brawny Ardagas.

i understand you misinterpreted my RME Only quote, as I didn't mention it in that post, only in past posts regarding this subject, that it was in regards to the current endgame being heavily shout based for a lot of people, and it was in regards to that specific area of endgame (Shout pick-ups). So i won't smash you for reading comprehension, as I can understand it could easily be misinterpreted both ways.

Back to weapons, The only exception to these rules could be Murasamemaru for SAM, and a few other select weapons for other jobs, but for the most part, If you don't have a RME, in the fights i named, You won't be invited to DD if you're going with a shout group.

Not that its >impossible<, but that its unlikely a shout group is going to recruit you if they don't think you're the "Best". (Which is actually quite silly cause 85EMPs take fk all worth of effort and most 85 owners are pants on head retarded most of the time... at least ukonvasara/Vereth owners anyway)



No argument here, I get that vibe from quite a few players regarding it. Its not a secret Elitist do actually exist, So if you'd step back and take a moment to realize this, You would see just cause these people exist, doesn't make you any better of a person for your, just as rude, attitude toward this situations, as not all Relic Owners are like this, and they don't deserve the "HA HA TAKE THAT" Attitude you're giving it.

I do kinda like how you didn't deny it though.

Its not a ha ha take that attitude, its a who cares let it go attitude lol. I think a clean slate as far as this goes would be good and refreshing to not only players of old and new, but also the market (AH)

Its the elitist attitude that keep the servers stagnant because nobody is welcoming to new people. Lets face it, that is how a majority of this game is and always has been.

[Karbuncle]

I do think the Playing field should be balanced so new players dont feel they "have" to get MRE to be able to play a job. But i just don't feel they should be 100% Trumped. Like others have said, Having MREs be bested in some situations (Think, Twilight Scythe/Murasamemaru), Is a great idea, having them 100% Trumped is a bad idea.

Think of weapons like Ukonvasara and Kenkonken, Which will remain good for the WS and the Boosts to them.. Or Bravura for its PDT, Excal for the Additional Effect/Regen on WS, Apoc for obvious reasons, All kinds of MRE have good uses, but not all of them, and some are just made for pure DMG, so releasing something with better "pure dmg" sorely weakens their worth.

They should re-evaluate Aftermath on a lot of WS, and add a use to them that goes above and beyond just pure dmg... Add utility to them, so they aren't just nothing but pure DMG and are, essentially, tossed aside for new hotness.

Apoc is a strong weapon, and adds a lot of survivability to DRK, but its not required for the job, Which makes it a great Relic, It adds to the job without it being required. They should take this mindset with most RME

[Horadrim]

I do think the Playing field should be balanced so new players dont feel they "have" to get MRE to be able to play a job. But i just don't feel they should be 100% Trumped. Like others have said, Having MREs be bested in some situations (Think, Twilight Scythe/Murasamemaru), Is a great idea, having them 100% Trumped is a bad idea.

Think of weapons like Ukonvasara and Kenkonken, Which will remain good for the WS and the Boosts to them.. Or Bravura for its PDT, Excal for the Additional Effect/Regen on WS, Apoc for obvious reasons, All kinds of MRE have good uses, but not all of them, and some are just made for pure DMG, so releasing something with better "pure dmg" sorely weakens their worth.

They should re-evaluate Aftermath on a lot of WS, and add a use to them that goes above and beyond just pure dmg... Add utility to them, so they aren't just nothing but pure DMG and are, essentially, tossed aside for new hotness.

Apoc is a strong weapon, and adds a lot of survivability to DRK, but its not required for the job, Which makes it a great Relic, It adds to the job without it being required. They should take this mindset with most RME

Yeah, I'll say that I'm just thinking of picking up DRG as my fourth job and apparently I -have- to either make Relic or Mythic because Empyrean lance sucks and OAT (while the alternative people have recommended to me) isn't good enough in the eyes of the "Elite" who run end game events.

It's kind of annoying to think about, considering its nigh impossible to get a good Mythic static together and I don't feel like spending 300m.

[Karbuncle]

I'd avoid Gungnir Actually too, Its a pretty sad excuse for a weapon unfortunately. The OAT Weapon is your best bet if you can't get a Mythic.

But yah :( Try to get the Skirmish weapon :D, hell, If you got a good job, I'm still missing 1 person for my Skirmish Static... If you want the Lance, No one has that reserved yet... Only thing is you'll have to help us farm Soul pyre every so often when we go. usually not too bad they're a good group of folks.

[Concerned4FFxi]

I completely agree with that. But I still enjoy the game.

If you no longer choose to support FFXI, cool, that's your choice, and I support your right to have that choice. When a dead person tries to tell the living how to live, that's when I have a problem.

Edit: I should mention that I'm not trying to say you're not entitled to an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's not a matter of whether or not you're allowed to have opinions. It's a matter of the weight your opinion carries. I currently pay SE, and I intend to continue doing so into the unforseen future. Should your opinion shape the game as much as mine if you do not pay SE and have no plans to pay SE?

Yes, because this game has been carried by the backs of ALL of the subcribers up until now, present and past. You can't get to were you are today, without his subscription yesterday.

[Horadrim]

I'd avoid Gungnir Actually too, Its a pretty sad excuse for a weapon unfortunately. The OAT Weapon is your best bet if you can't get a Mythic.

But yah :( Try to get the Skirmish weapon :D, hell, If you got a good job, I'm still missing 1 person for my Skirmish Static... If you want the Lance, No one has that reserved yet... Only thing is you'll have to help us farm Soul pyre every so often when we go. usually not too bad they're a good group of folks.

Tell me what job you need and I'll have it well geared by the weekend. I'm sort of obsessive compulsive like that.

Actually working on gearing my COR, could probably finish WoE gun and +1 by the weekend, +2 by Wednesday.

Otherwise I have like 12 jobs lv. 99, most lv. 90+ except for DRG70 (finishing it today), WAR/DNC/NIN50, and the 4 jobs I haven't bothered to get up. (THF/RNG/MNK/DRK)

Mains right now are RUN/GEO/COR/DRG. So anything for those would be nice (I imagine crobaci is in high demand, though.) And farming soul pyres sounds alright by me. I need to skill up my Marksmanship anyway, and it I'm always looking for an excuse to spend more time in the Mummer's coalition (not even being sarcastic, something about that place makes me lul).

[Karbuncle]

Crobaci has 1 Person on it so far, Dagger has 2, SMN Staff has 1, maybe 2... outside of that, We're just going by a lot honor system since we all be FRANZ and stuff.

COR Would probably be the most desired and awesome bet. Finish that and just get it respectable (I.E have gear in all your spaces >_>) By The weekend, and I'll get ya in. We could really use a COR.

Melee Set optional, Though I'd avoid Melee range on some NMs (Umbrils)... Might just have you sub WHM TBH to help with Erase/NA's and be a Buffer/WildfireSPLOSIONS.

[Asymptotic]

DRG is mathematically crippled without Ryunohige (It is the only available weapon that manages to address DRG's inherent weaknesses). That has little to do with the weapons though; it's mostly a direct result of DRG's design: while the other heavy DDs have native ways to boost their TP gain, attack frequency, attack, and/or attack speed and can sub each other to take advantage of the others. DRG does not have access to these boosts and must obtain all of them from a support job. Ryunohige is the only way DRG can bring its performance up to par with other more common heavy DD. Other jobs may have options that are 5-10% behind their preferred prestige weapon in performance, but non-Ryunohige DRG is at best 60% of a Ryunohige DRG.

The power of Ryunohige may be hurting DRG as a whole though, because if they give DRG boosts such that non-Ryunohige DRG is competitive with other heavy DD, Ryunohige DRG will just become even stronger.

[Horadrim]

Crobaci has 1 Person on it so far, Dagger has 2, SMN Staff has 1, maybe 2... outside of that, We're just going by a lot honor system since we all be FRANZ and stuff.

COR Would probably be the most desired and awesome bet. Finish that and just get it respectable (I.E have gear in all your spaces >_>) By The weekend, and I'll get ya in. We could really use a COR.

Melee Set optional, Though I'd avoid Melee range on some NMs (Umbrils)... Might just have you sub WHM TBH to help with Erase/NA's and be a Buffer/WildfireSPLOSIONS.

Guess I have a day of NM camping ahead of me, lol. I'll focus on COR and finish DRG another weekend, then. (Considering how much I love the job, I've got not a single quail with that.)

Funnily enough, I already have a melee set, but I'd rather /WHM and be a explosupport. BOOM BOOM Nah nah nah nah~ Boom!


DRG is mathematically crippled without Ryunohige (It is the only available weapon that manages to address DRG's inherent weaknesses). That has little to do with the weapons though; it's mostly a direct result of DRG's design: while the other heavy DDs have native ways to boost their TP gain, attack frequency, attack, and/or attack speed and can sub each other to take advantage of the others. DRG does not have access to these boosts and must obtain all of them from a support job. Ryunohige is the only way DRG can bring its performance up to par with other more common heavy DD. Other jobs may have options that are 5-10% behind their preferred prestige weapon in performance, but non-Ryunohige DRG is at best 60% of a Ryunohige DRG.

The power of Ryunohige may be hurting DRG as a whole though, because if they give DRG boosts such that non-Ryunohige DRG is competitive with other heavy DD, Ryunohige DRG will just become even stronger.

Yeah, stuff like this is chief among my arguments against the structure of RME right now. PLD and DRG shouldn't require RMEs to be able to even be remotely useful in their base functionality. It's kind of asinine.

As far as I've come to understand it in the modern climate, PLD is useless with Aegis/Ochain these days (Which I can't argue against, Ochain tanks basically AFK in Adoulin while horribly non-Ochains struggle their damnedest and get stomped) and DRG (along with maybe PUP, in the DD sense) are basically eye rolls without aftermaths.

Meanwhile, COR (and RNG, I imagine) can build WoE and be just as viable as if they had build Arma 99? That's kind of asinine.

[Jaall]

The power of Ryunohige may be hurting DRG as a whole though, because if they give DRG boosts such that non-Ryunohige DRG is competitive with other heavy DD, Ryunohige DRG will just become even stronger.

That's actually part of the reason I quit. I love DRG and made a Gungnir and as nice as it is, it just isn't Ryuno because DRG as a whole is very flawed. It will, however, never be fixed due to 2 things - SE still see DRG as a self dependant DD although the demand for such a DD is very little and tbh the only place I could actually pull my weight was NNI because "all" floors had mobs with reasonably low defence compared to other events, that I could hit hard enough on while also curing myself and whoever else was on my DD team. The other reason being, like you said, that Ryuno would have to be nerfed if such changes were made and that would most likely cause a lot of anger in the mythic community so they might as well leave it as it is. Shame really but that was kinda what pushed me over the edge and decided it for me that I don't really want to play anymore especially with Gungnir being made even more gimp in comparison!

[Asymptotic]

Yeah, stuff like this is chief among my arguments against the structure of RME right now. PLD and DRG shouldn't require RMEs to be able to even be remotely useful in their base functionality. It's kind of asinine.

In the case of DRG they'll either have to make major adjustments to the job or release something wild and crazy with stats that would probably make our heads explode.

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/cameos-header.jpg

I don't know about you, but I don't think FFXI is quite ready for Alanis Morisette in Polearm form.

PLD is another interesting case of flawed design because SE did not give the job the native tools to do what players need it to do and chose to address it through equipment instead of adjusting the job. At least in the case of Ochain, it only needs to be at 90 to be functional.

[Taint2]

Just to post this here, I've been mathing Crobaci vs Rag. (There are a few Crobaci's floating around on Cerberus now, and probably a lot more incoming)

For DRK Crobaci (12str 10wdmg aug) using a 5hit can edge out 99 Rag. But of the 3 Crobaci's I've seen only one was augmented (no idea why) and it had STR14 DEX8 if I remember correctly. Pretty safe to say 99Rag > Crobaci unless it has ridic augments.

Most of these weapons seem on par with 95 Relics which is probably exactly what SE was going for.

[Horadrim]

Just to post this here, I've been mathing Crobaci vs Rag. (There are a few Crobaci's floating around on Cerberus now, and probably a lot more incoming)

For DRK Crobaci (12str 10wdmg aug) using a 5hit can edge out 99 Rag. But of the 3 Crobaci's I've seen only one was augmented (no idea why) and it had STR14 DEX8 if I remember correctly. Pretty safe to say 99Rag > Crobaci unless it has ridic augments.

Most of these weapons seem on par with 95 Relics which is probably exactly what SE was going for.

I think the numeric values of the Skirmish weapons seem more extravagant than they actually are, but I think it goes without saying that maximum augments they are solid competition. They'll be able to keep up rather well with 99 RME without a doubt.


Snip

I'm thinking I can offer this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/296494) and this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/296497) by the end of next week (most of it within the weekend.)

Depending on what my weekend ends up looking like. Anything purchasable is obviously easy (just need to do a bit of farming) -- Demon Ring farming will be pretty painless, I have some people I can call out, and and I can brew Irath/Raja/already have ACP final boss loaded for a new Mirke.

In other words... Boom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqHQ_wWbG9Y)~!

EDIT: had to change the gun, put the wrong one.

[Karbuncle]

Sounds good to me. So long as you can keep Rolls up and Deal even some damage, I'll consider it a success.

[Taint2]

I think the numeric values of the Skirmish weapons seem more extravagant than they actually are, but I think it goes without saying that maximum augments they are solid competition. They'll be able to keep up rather well with 99 RME without a doubt.




Well there are only a few weapons they could even compete with.


Gun - Relic/Emp - WSs are game changers
Bow - Relic - Namas and usable by SAM
Scythe - Apoc/Lib
GS - Skirimish with great augments comes close to Rag99 and beats Rag95
H2H - Tlalpoloani looking best for Damage, Spharai obviously for counter tanking
Axe - Skirmishing looking impressive should approach 100 damage with +2 aug
PA - Ryu no contest
Dagger - Skirmish looking great for off hand, RME for main
GA - Ukon/Conq
GKT - REM are all better
Katana - REM all look better
Sword - Almace/Excal

[Karbuncle]

H2H - Tlalpoloani looking best for Damage, Spharai obviously for counter tanking

Not the Skirmish Weapon, It was shown Skirmish Weapon could get Counter+2 and far superior DPS... Plus the Augments are varied a bit so... Could get more counter lol.

As far as the Dagger, Pretty sure the only reason it could fall behind a Mandau is because of the 40 Attack and Mercy, DMG:66 Delay: 183 with Crit+5% (And possibly more augments) is super hard to beat for a dagger... its what a Mandau should look like lol.

h2h- Skirmish Wins against 99 Sphar with right augments.. by 5-10% lol. (from what I've read mind you)
Dagger- Above
Sword- Not enough known about augments.
GS - Kicks Ragna95's a** and comes darn close to 99 Ragna, if n ot better even.
Axe - Probably destroys Guttler
G.axe - Not really enough Info, But i dont see Ukon falling behind cause of the WS
Scythe - Skirmish Scythe is better Damage potential, Apoc is, and always has been, a Utility weapon (Still an amazing one)
Polearm - Explained somewhere, All Polearms suck compared to Ryunohige, so i mean, This one clearly sh*ts on Gungnir and id ont even need to know the Augments on it.
Club - ... Damage?
Staff - SMN Staff is superb, and looking better with each augment i see.
GUN - Its all bout the WS
Bow - Same as Gun mostly

IDK If i forgot anything, But a lot of these weapons have a R M or E Between them that'll probably remain top, But a lot of them also replace a R M or E Amongst their class. 99's included.

[Horadrim]

Not the Skirmish Weapon, It was shown Skirmish Weapon could get Counter+2 and far superior DPS... Plus the Augments are varied a bit so... Could get more counter lol.

As far as the Dagger, Pretty sure the only reason it could fall behind a Mandau is because of the 40 Attack and Mercy, DMG:66 Delay: 183 with Crit+5% (And possibly more augments) is super hard to beat for a dagger... its what a Mandau should look like lol.

h2h- Skirmish Wins against 99 Sphar with right augments.. by 5-10% lol. (from what I've read mind you)
Dagger- Above
Sword- Not enough known about augments.
GS - Kicks Ragna95's a** and comes darn close to 99 Ragna, if n ot better even.
Axe - Probably destroys Guttler
G.axe - Not really enough Info, But i dont see Ukon falling behind cause of the WS
Scythe - Skirmish Scythe is better Damage potential, Apoc is, and always has been, a Utility weapon (Still an amazing one)
Polearm - Explained somewhere, All Polearms suck compared to Ryunohige, so i mean, This one clearly sh*ts on Gungnir and id ont even need to know the Augments on it.
Club - ... Damage?
Staff - SMN Staff is superb, and looking better with each augment i see.
GUN - Its all bout the WS
Bow - Same as Gun mostly

IDK If i forgot anything, But a lot of these weapons have a R M or E Between them that'll probably remain top, But a lot of them also replace a R M or E Amongst their class. 99's included.

GEO/BLM staff shows +40 base MAB, Augments add +18 INT and another +30 MAB.

Yeah I was looking at the gun. It'd be nice to play around with but I don't know that it'll beat Wildfire.


Well there are only a few weapons they could even compete with.


Gun - Relic/Emp - WSs are game changers
Bow - Relic - Namas and usable by SAM
Scythe - Apoc/Lib
GS - Skirimish with great augments comes close to Rag99 and beats Rag95
H2H - Tlalpoloani looking best for Damage, Spharai obviously for counter tanking
Axe - Skirmishing looking impressive should approach 100 damage with +2 aug
PA - Ryu no contest
Dagger - Skirmish looking great for off hand, RME for main
GA - Ukon/Conq
GKT - REM are all better
Katana - REM all look better
Sword - Almace/Excal

The biggest bugbear seems to be Crobaci, honestly. I haven't see much complaining about any other weapon.

[Asymptotic]

I mean, I consider the BLM and SMN staves to be pretty unreasonable intrusions on their mythic counterparts.

[Demon6324236]

The biggest bugbear seems to be Crobaci, honestly. I haven't see much complaining about any other weapon.That is more or less because everyone made a Ragnarok at some point. Since so many people have now made a 'Bandwagnarok' at some point, the fact it may be knocked down to second place has angered many.

[Karbuncle]

I personally both hate and love the new Dagger.

But yah, Ragnarok was super Band-wagon'd, So those people who jumped on the Wagon are the loudest complainers... Sure Non Wagon owners are just like "Whatevs"

[Asymptotic]

That is more or less because everyone made a Ragnarok at some point. Since so many people have now made a 'Bandwagnarok' at some point, the fact it may be knocked down to second place has angered many.


I personally both hate and love the new Dagger.

But yah, Ragnarok was super Band-wagon'd, So those people who jumped on the Wagon are the loudest complainers... Sure Non Wagon owners are just like "Whatevs"


I didn't make a 'Bandwagnarok' (all of my weapons are notably not bandwagon: 99 Twashtar, 99 Terpsichore, 35/50 assaults from Kenkonken, 95 Mjollnir (there was no motivation for me to 99 it so I didn't bother) except for a random 85 Armageddon I have for the COR I pull out occasionally). But I still don't think that people who made a 99 Ragnarok should be left with an ultimately wasted 200M investment.

[Karbuncle]

I didn't make a 'Bandwagnarok' (all of my weapons are notably not bandwagon: 99 Twashtar, 99 Terpsichore, 35/50 assaults from Kenkonken, 95 Mjollnir (there was no motivation for me to 99 it so I didn't bother) except for a random 85 Armageddon I have for the COR I pull out occasionally). But I still don't think that people who made a 99 Ragnarok should be left with an ultimately wasted 200M investment.

Have you even read any of my other posts >:O

[Siiri]

I hear a lot of complaining from Relic monks. In fact we had 1 relic mnk quit, and a 2nd thinking about it. Also the outclassing of the smn mythic and blm mythic as stated are getting a lot of complaintsl. The skirmish gsword jumps out as well because the damage is crazy high for a gsword, higher than a 99 apoc or liberator, which had been the weapons with the highest damage for drks. Hard to understand for me still. Time will tell I guess.

[Taint2]

Not the Skirmish Weapon, It was shown Skirmish Weapon could get Counter+2 and far superior DPS... Plus the Augments are varied a bit so... Could get more counter lol.

As far as the Dagger, Pretty sure the only reason it could fall behind a Mandau is because of the 40 Attack and Mercy, DMG:66 Delay: 183 with Crit+5% (And possibly more augments) is super hard to beat for a dagger... its what a Mandau should look like lol.

h2h- Skirmish Wins against 99 Sphar with right augments.. by 5-10% lol. (from what I've read mind you)
Dagger- Above
Sword- Not enough known about augments.
GS - Kicks Ragna95's a** and comes darn close to 99 Ragna, if n ot better even.
Axe - Probably destroys Guttler
G.axe - Not really enough Info, But i dont see Ukon falling behind cause of the WS
Scythe - Skirmish Scythe is better Damage potential, Apoc is, and always has been, a Utility weapon (Still an amazing one)
Polearm - Explained somewhere, All Polearms suck compared to Ryunohige, so i mean, This one clearly sh*ts on Gungnir and id ont even need to know the Augments on it.
Club - ... Damage?
Staff - SMN Staff is superb, and looking better with each augment i see.
GUN - Its all bout the WS
Bow - Same as Gun mostly

IDK If i forgot anything, But a lot of these weapons have a R M or E Between them that'll probably remain top, But a lot of them also replace a R M or E Amongst their class. 99's included.






Ninza RareEx
[Main] All Races
DPS: 845 DMG:+38 Delay:+51
LV 99 MNK PUP

Beats



Tlalpoloani RareEx
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1375 DMG+74 Delay:+96 DEX+8 [Element: Fire]+20 "Store TP"+5
LV 99 MNK PUP

??? - what augments have you seen, everything I've read has Tlalpoloani ahead.

Other then that I think we are saying the same thing. Once REM get their augments/upgrades they will be ahead again. People with 85/90emps,95relics will surely be left in the dust as they should be.

[Karbuncle]

Ninza RareEx
[Main] All Races
DPS: 845 DMG:+38 Delay:+51
LV 99 MNK PUP

Ｄ+30 Counterー+5
Ｄ+23 STR+5

http://ffxi.wikiwiki.jp/?%A5%A2%A5%C9%A5%A5%A5%EA%A5%F3%A4%CE%CB%E2%B6%AD%2F%A5%B3%A5%ED%A5%CA%A5%A4%A5%BA%2F%A5%EF%A1%BC%A5%AF%A5%B9%2F%A5%A4%A5%F3%A5%D9%A5%F3%A5%BF%A1%BC%A1%A6%A5%EF%A1%BC%A5%AF%A5%B9

These Augments have variables too, Its not remotely far fetched to think they might have more possibilities in augments and DMG+ potential too. But as it stands

D:68 Delay:38 Counter+5 is no slouch to Tzljalpotpotlbalx, Its 6 DMG/8DEX vs 58 Delay. On a MNK, that 58 Delay looks better than you think, and the Counter+5 adds a small small amount to your DPS from Counters if you're tanking, Plus, As i said There isn't a lot of information on H2H Augments, these could be low end.

[Taint2]

Ninza RareEx
[Main] All Races
DPS: 845 DMG:+38 Delay:+51
LV 99 MNK PUP

Ｄ+30 Counterー+5
Ｄ+23 STR+5

http://ffxi.wikiwiki.jp/?%A5%A2%A5%C9%A5%A5%A5%EA%A5%F3%A4%CE%CB%E2%B6%AD%2F%A5%B3%A5%ED%A5%CA%A5%A4%A5%BA%2F%A5%EF%A1%BC%A5%AF%A5%B9%2F%A5%A4%A5%F3%A5%D9%A5%F3%A5%BF%A1%BC%A1%A6%A5%EF%A1%BC%A5%AF%A5%B9

These Augments have variables too, Its not remotely far fetched to think they might have more possibilities in augments and DMG+ potential too. But as it stands

D:68 Delay:38 Counter+5 is no slouch to Tzljalpotpotlbalx, Its 6 DMG/8DEX vs 58 Delay. On a MNK, that 58 Delay looks better than you think, and the Counter+5 adds a small small amount to your DPS from Counters if you're tanking, Plus, As i said There isn't a lot of information on H2H Augments, these could be low end.


Yeah those +2 augs are crazy....carry on.

[Demon6324236]

But I still don't think that people who made a 99 Ragnarok should be left with an ultimately wasted 200M investment.The investment is only wasted if they never got a use out of it, if they had some use out of it I would say they got exactly what they paid for, a super strong weapon which they had to use for a while, in fact it was the best of its class. What I am seeing here I would compare to Hagun SAMs, they got some amazingly epic use out of it for a long time, but then it fell out of place when the cap rose, and their investment went down. The difference is that Relics can not be sold, but then again, Hagun could not be enhanced, there is hope these weapons will rise to be amazing once again, but for now they are the second best, that is far from useless, or a wasted investment. Now if they nerfed Resolution so bad that GS was weaker than Scythe, then yes, I would say they got screwed and should have made an Apoc instead, but seeing as that is not currently the case... people are simply going to the extreme when saying this weapon is a 'wasted investment'.

[Karbuncle]

Technically what they paid for when they made the 99 Versions was a super strong weapon that would last them most if not all the games life time, as the weapons were advertised.

But thats just a technicality.

[Zagen]

Technically what they paid for when they made the 99 Versions was a super strong weapon that would last them most if not all the games life time, as the weapons were advertised.

But thats just a technicality.
Technically speaking where was that ever stated?

[Helel]

I don't see how you can seriously compare hagun to relic, but whatever. The point is, relics are being outmatched by weapons which take 40 minutes to obtain. And no, you don't have to farm the pieces, because you can just tag along with someone else, and grab your weapon from your personal chest/loot pool. That is absolutely ridiculous. I'm mainly a RNG, so I really don't care about most of these weapons to begin with. We already got a significant increase in DPS with the lovely damascus bullet. Nevertheless, I don't know what went through SE's head when they decided to improve weapons rather than gear.

[Karbuncle]

Technically speaking where was that ever stated?

With just about every single posts regarding R/M/E since this forum started, and several posts can be found during the level cap increase specifically stating they would "Remain the best".

If you go hit the Dev Tracker button and search posts back to the level 80 Cap and 85 cap when Emp's were introduced, You'll find it there. I've seen and read them before, But i don't have exact dates so... Digging them up would be more effort than i willing to put into this though...

Also you used Technically speaking in the wrong manner, so the sarcastic inquiry doesn't even really make sense...

Plus i can see why you don't care, you have what are probably a handful of the few RME's that aren't really replaced.

Apoc for its HP Drain WS
Wildfire Gun for Wildfire
Almace is the only thing of yours even slightly at risk of being replaced...

[Zagen]

Plus i can see why you don't care, you have what are probably a handful of the few RME's that aren't really replaced.

Apoc for its HP Drain WS
Wildfire Gun for Wildfire
Almace is the only thing of yours even slightly at risk of being replaced...

I don't care because I play this game to kill time. I'd like to spend that time I'm wasting on new stuff not the same old stuff that's 4-10 years old.

Of my current R/E/M Apoc is probably my favorite and if they found that the new scythe got HP drain WS effect, haste +10%, and ODD I wouldn't bitch about it. I'd use my Apocalypse to work on getting that new scythe. I'd then bother to remake a mannequin on this account and put up Apoc and not look back. When I'd visit my Moogle I'd see the Apoc and be reminded to the good times I had making it and using it, I may even be so inclined to take it out for a spin despite not being the best anymore.

If it wasn't for the nests being so blu friendly my almace wouldn't even see the light of day, and even then I've considered replacing that with the sword you can buy with Bayld just for the looks...

Edit: even though Verethragna are completely destroyed by the new H2Hs I'm still working on them for the personal accomplishment attached to them.

[Sparthos]

R/M/Es have never been the "best" in any absolute sense as far back as when they were first released. We've gone through cycles of boom and bust with these weapons and even the Bandwagnarok only recently came into favor after Resolution became a thing. Some weapons have remained constant, some are utility tools, some are support weapons, some are just neat looking and some are just plain fucking bad.

So when I hear that SE made promises to keep these weapons superior its silly to cite that when so many R/M/Es aren't even 2nd string weapons. It's the game we've played with these "ultimate" weapons and one we'll continue to play.

[Asymptotic]

The investment is only wasted if they never got a use out of it, if they had some use out of it I would say they got exactly what they paid for, a super strong weapon which they had to use for a while, in fact it was the best of its class. What I am seeing here I would compare to Hagun SAMs, they got some amazingly epic use out of it for a long time, but then it fell out of place when the cap rose, and their investment went down. The difference is that Relics can not be sold, but then again, Hagun could not be enhanced, there is hope these weapons will rise to be amazing once again, but for now they are the second best, that is far from useless, or a wasted investment. Now if they nerfed Resolution so bad that GS was weaker than Scythe, then yes, I would say they got screwed and should have made an Apoc instead, but seeing as that is not currently the case... people are simply going to the extreme when saying this weapon is a 'wasted investment'.

If people thought their 200-500m weapon were going to be outdated a few updates down the road, very few people would bother. People are loss averse and will universally consider the devaluing of a significant investment a loss. Is the expectation of security for high-level investments really this difficult of a concept to understand?

Hagun does not compare at all. Hagun was always orders of magnitude below the investment level of a relic or mythic.

[Demon6324236]

If people thought their 200-500m weapon were going to be outdated a few updates down the road, very few people would bother. People are loss averse and will universally consider the devaluing of a significant investment a loss. Is the expectation of security for high-level investments really this difficult of a concept to understand?No, its easy to understand, and yet, its not like the weapons are simply being left as they are, or that people do not do things which are equally as pointless. People go buy gear like the Hexed -1 gear that is hundreds of millions of gil, some pieces are more expensive than Relics, and yet, they buy them, and some of it gets out dated every update, look at the Khepri hat, it was out done this Expansion as a WS head, the new WS legs out do Tenryu for SAM on Shoha I believe, but win for Relic and Emp WSs still, for now. People spend a ton of money on items, in my opinion, anything you are willing to put the money into, plan to have it outdated at some point, because chances are it will be for a bit, if not forever.


Hagun does not compare at all. Hagun was always orders of magnitude below the investment level of a relic or mythic.No, its not an exact comparison, it is an investment that people made on a weapon which at the time was highly sought out and used, it had a high price and rightly so, but then once the level cap was taken to 80, its price and worth diminished a bit, and ever since it has went down hill for that weapon. Right now, RME are still second~third best at worst, its not like they suddenly had 5 new weapons of each category pop up and instantly beat it, all of it able to be bought like the armors are at the Peacekeepers. Also as I said, in this case the investment has no return, it has upgrades, those RMEs can be upgraded to a level where they becoming stronger again possibly, now if that change makes them weaker still, then fine, yes, we all have reason to rage, till then, not really. For now I see it as though we are all of those old Relic owners who had their Relics at 75, which were out done till SE gave them trials to make Relics not suck as much anymore.

[Asymptotic]

Hexed -1 gear is an interesting point, but I'd like to point out that at least personally, I completely avoided it because I was expecting a gear power creep out of Adoulin so I didn't consider anything Hexed-1 (or Legion in general) to be a safe investment. (I know other people who had the same feeling).

Personally, I don't spend more than ~10m on a single piece of gear unless I'm pretty sure it's going to last. I never said that people wouldn't continue to make RME for whatever reason if they were all completely trumped, because people do make economically silly decisions (Huginn Gambieras) but you don't look at individual behavior for things like this, you look at the overall trend. Legion for example, had extremely lukewarm reception due to rewards widely regarded as impotent for the level of effort and organization required.

[Concerned4FFxi]

No, its easy to understand, and yet, its not like the weapons are simply being left as they are, or that people do not do things which are equally as pointless. People go buy gear like the Hexed -1 gear that is hundreds of millions of gil, some pieces are more expensive than Relics, and yet, they buy them, and some of it gets out dated every update, look at the Khepri hat, it was out done this Expansion as a WS head, the new WS legs out do Tenryu for SAM on Shoha I believe, but win for Relic and Emp WSs still, for now. People spend a ton of money on items, in my opinion, anything you are willing to put the money into, plan to have it outdated at some point, because chances are it will be for a bit, if not forever.

No, its not an exact comparison, it is an investment that people made on a weapon which at the time was highly sought out and used, it had a high price and rightly so, but then once the level cap was taken to 80, its price and worth diminished a bit, and ever since it has went down hill for that weapon. Right now, RME are still second~third best at worst, its not like they suddenly had 5 new weapons of each category pop up and instantly beat it, all of it able to be bought like the armors are at the Peacekeepers. Also as I said, in this case the investment has no return, it has upgrades, those RMEs can be upgraded to a level where they becoming stronger again possibly, now if that change makes them weaker still, then fine, yes, we all have reason to rage, till then, not really. For now I see it as though we are all of those old Relic owners who had their Relics at 75, which were out done till SE gave them trials to make Relics not suck as much anymore.

except, after attaining hexed -1 gear and augmenting it, months later there's no update to send you thru a bunch of grueling trials to further augment, after you spent millions and then immediately find out is was a waste of time. That's the difference here. Also, SE had a habbit of keeping r/m/e on top. That's why they got the upgrades orginally. There's shit in this game that supposed to always be a solid investment, like k-club. SE broke balance, trying to set the game up for the next ten years and sell SOA. That's the kinda BS that keep the neo-limbus gear down , too.

[Demon6324236]

except, after attaining hexed -1 gear and augmenting it, months later there's no update to send you thru a bunch of grueling trials to further augment, after you spent millions and then immediately find out is was a waste of time.Your right, once the new gear out dates it, its done, your money is wasted, its a R/EX item, and now its worthless and you might as well drop it, Relics, Mythics, and Emps, all will be growing still, you there is no need to drop them, the investment is still sound, and there is no reason to believe that your weapon is forever going to be left off of the top of the charts.

[B-Dex]

It boggles my mind people are so upset about these new weapons when they have already had years and years to enjoy and use their current gear. Years.

Is it really so bad there are new alternatives? You shouldn't expect anything to last forever. Especially in these types of games.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

There's shit in this game that supposed to always be a solid investment, like k-club.

That's a horrible example. The Kraken Club was a mistake, from the same expansion that gave us Utsusemi.

Several HNM drops got moved to BCNMs and had EX replacements in the HNM pool. Only one EX replacement actually got nerfed.

[Jackstin]

I'm sure there will be new Trials to further Augment relic weapons. Have no fear.

[Zumi]

Was posted on BG, that a group farmed a statue for 1.5 hours, did skirmish. Got the GS and Club, anyway the GS had DMG 141 + 11 augment and 6 str.

Definitely comparable with Ragnarok.

[Asymptotic]

Your right, once the new gear out dates it, its done, your money is wasted, its a R/EX item, and now its worthless and you might as well drop it, Relics, Mythics, and Emps, all will be growing still, you there is no need to drop them, the investment is still sound, and there is no reason to believe that your weapon is forever going to be left off of the top of the charts.

I agree that they will adjust the performance somehow, but my arguments were against the people who were saying that they should not do so. There's been a frustrating choir of "Haha, sucks to be you, that's what you get for working hard for something and expecting it to remain relevant!" (Not surprisingly, mostly from people who haven't actually invested the effort to make anything beyond 90 Empyreans if even that.)


That's a horrible example. The Kraken Club was a mistake, from the same expansion that gave us Utsusemi.

Several HNM drops got moved to BCNMs and had EX replacements in the HNM pool. Only one EX replacement actually got nerfed.


Right, because SE didn't want to devalue the Kraken Club but they still wanted to end RMT monopolization of the NMs.


It boggles my mind people are so upset about these new weapons when they have already had years and years to enjoy and use their current gear. Years.

Is it really so bad there are new alternatives? You shouldn't expect anything to last forever. Especially in these types of games.

This argument again?

1.) I don't think any reasonable poster has complained that there are alternatives to 95 and below RME - on top of that - a large number of RM are not relevant in the first place (this is an issue that should have been addressed a long time ago SE, coughtupsimaticough), but even then still carried at least the distinction of always being one of the highest base damage weapons in their class.

2.) People would not have invested so much in RME99 if they thought they would just be not just caught up to - but put in danger of being outclassed - very soon down the road. Additionally, if these weapons are outclassed a significant portion of the game economy will fall flat because people do not expend large amounts of effort (on average) for things that are mediocre. (See: the nigh failure of Legion and to an extent Meeble Burrows - Meeble Burrows is a fun event but the rewards from the Batallia wing range from mediocre to downright garbage, the rarity of Claustrum and Gungir etc.)

3.) SE could just increase the base damage of all the 99 versions (and for the record , people have not had several years to enjoy their 99 weapons) of these weapons such that they remain near the highest in their class and shut everyone up about it, people will continue making them, and SE can continue to create alternatives to these weapons that are capable of existing alongside the 99 versions. This is the path of least resistance, and it's probably the route they'll take.

[Pebe]

Let me start by saying I'm a mage job user:

I keep seeing these arguments that R/M/E were always supposed to be the best blah blah blah, etc etc etc.

And then, I take a look at the Claustrum in my inventory and ponder for a moment... Then I take a look at the mythic for my favorite job, SCH - Tupsimati, and ponder some more... And then I consider how 75 Laevateiin lost to the elemental staffs, and how 99 laevateiin loses to the trials staffs without aftermath. And then i consider Nirvana, and how its perp- is equal to that of the trial staffs, and how Uffrat decimates it without aftermath. And then I consider the concept of aftermath, and how much a mage suffers in keeping up 299 tp aftermath of blm, sch, smn, etc etc.

Then I conclude, you melees have nothing to complain about. Mages R/M/E have been crap for years, besides those occasional niche uses (Like Hvergelmir). In my opinion, if we are keeping in mind true equality of investment across all job, either 1 of the following needs to happen:

1. Certain R/M/E get a revamp to keep relevancy. (There are a few that do not need such adjustments - Ryuhinge)
2. A new set of Ultima Weapons come out that require the combination of the 99 versions of R/M/E to complete(not afterglow). The end all, be all weapons.

[Asymptotic]

Let me start by saying I'm a mage job user:

I keep seeing these arguments that R/M/E were always supposed to be the best blah blah blah, etc etc etc.

And then, I take a look at the Claustrum in my inventory and ponder for a moment... Then I take a look at the mythic for my favorite job, SCH - Tupsimati, and ponder some more... And then I consider how 75 Laevateiin lost to the elemental staffs, and how 99 laevateiin loses to the trials staffs without aftermath. And then i consider Nirvana, and how its perp- is equal to that of the trial staffs, and how Uffrat decimates it without aftermath. And then I consider the concept of aftermath, and how much a mage suffers in keeping up 299 tp aftermath of blm, sch, smn, etc etc.

Then I conclude, you melees have nothing to complain about. Mages R/M/E have been crap for years, besides those occasional niche uses (Like Hvergelmir). In my opinion, if we are keeping in mind true equality of investment across all job, either 1 of the following needs to happen:

1. Certain R/M/E get a revamp to keep relevancy. (There are a few that do not need such adjustments - Ryuhinge)
2. A new set of Ultima Weapons come out that require the combination of the 99 versions of R/M/E to complete(not afterglow). The end all, be all weapons.

I would completely agree that they should adjust the mage relics and mythics to actually be useful to the jobs that wield them, however you did know what you were getting before you bought it. That aside, claustrum is the best DD staff (I was skeptical about this, but it holds up to both Empyrean and Plenitas Virga even considering the better gear you get to wear with Plenitas) and is second to AM3 Nirvana for SMN, but Nirvana is worse if you are not maintaining aftermath.

Also, your argument is fallacious (see: ignorantio elenchi, alternatively if you want to lose a few hours of your life, "appeal to worse problems" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems) on TVTropes). TL;DR just because mages have been kicked in the face for years doesn't mean that someone else can't complain for getting kicked in the shin.

(I've provided multiple suggestions for fixing the mage mythics to be good, these are the best I've come up with:



Tupsimati 99 Damage 104 Delay 402
Magic Accuracy +40 Magic Attack Bonus +40
Enhances "Stratagems" V & Augments "Storm"
Weather Affinity: Casting time and recast -25%
Increases magic accuracy and magic damage


Notes

Augments Storm causes storm spells to calculate as double weather.
Enhances Stratagems V enhances the effect of each level of Stratagem
I: Forces Conserve MP to proc on Penury/
II: Doubles the effect of Alacrity
III: Removes the MP / casting time penalty on Accession
IV: Cureskin effect to "Rapture" and Magic Critical Hit Rate +50% to Ebullience
V: +25% duration to Perpetuance and Skillchain Bonus effect to Immanence
(A precedent for this type of step by step enhancement exists with Ryunohige)

Weather Affinity: refers to spells cast matching the current weather. "Increases magic accuracy and magic damage" would be equivalent to Affinity+4 on the magian staves. (I set it considerably lower due to the other effects on the weapon).



Nirvana 99
Accuracy +40
Avatar Perpetuation cost -8
Reduces "Blood Pact" ability recast delay V
Enhances "Blood Pact" effects V
Avatar: Increases Accuracy, Attack and Magic Attack Bonus
Haste +25%

Notes: A logical improvement over the current Nirvana. Halves Blood Pact recast for obvious reasons.
Enhances "Blood Pact" effects each tear is 5% damage for blood pact rage and 10% duration for enhancing Blood Pact: Wards.
Avatar: Haste+25% on pets is not unheard of (PUP can do it always with Turbo Charger) and the Acc / Attack /MAB for the avatar are +40, +25% and +40 respectively.



Laevateinn 99
Enhances "Elemental Seal" Effect II
Maximizes "Conserve MP" activation rate.
Elemental Magic Affinity: Magic Accuracy +6 and Magic Damage +6
Decreases Casting time and Recast time -15%

Notes: Another easy fix. MAB is replaced by Affinity Magic Damage and this basically replaces all Magian Staves for a BLM, serving a similar pupose as Gjallarhorn for BRD. Elemental seal is further augmented to force a magic crit (allowing you to take advantage of mcrit gear even though mcrit is usually a pathetic stat to worry about).

Some of the weapons need a complete redesign though.



Murgleis 99
Accuracy +30 Attack +30 Magic Accuracy +60
Enhances "Composure" effect and Enfeebling Magic Potency
Sword Enhancement Spell: Increases Attack Speed, Accuracy, Attack, and Critical Hit Rate

This one speaks for itself. It's a testament to RDM melee enthusiasts everywhere with a little bit of magery thrown in. "Increases Attack Speed" is JA haste meant to alleviate being ineligible to receive the benefits of Samba.

[Richwood]

I am reading through here wondering to myself as I take a trip to the "official" forums outside BG and FFXIAH, where the heck are the DEVS? Why are they not commenting on these, the concerns of the player base? I have been playing this game 9+ years like many and I am about at my limit with SE.

[Richwood]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm waiting for Matsui's statement on what they plan doing with RME, but if they don't plan on doing this the right way I'm probably going to jump ship. I don't mind adding weapons into the game so that more casual players can play in content without needing to dedicate themselves to getting a ridiculously superior RME weapon, but this is a case of them adding something that completely crushes what was previously the best weapon. Not only does it screw over the RME users, it actually screws casual players too, because I doubt the people who were using Hoarfrosts Blade instead of Ragnarok or someone using Brawny Adargas instead of Spharai beforehand will have the resources to obtain a Naakual Weapon either. Nobody wins in this case- the RME owners lose their best weapon, and the casual players are stuck with weapons that are even worse than what is the best now.

It also indicates a MMO model that I'm simply not interested in. The reason I keep coming back to XI as opposed to other MMOs is because of the content's lastability. While it is true that many pieces are outdated with each patch, to this day there are many old pieces of gear that are still near top-tier if not the top-tier. It encourages you to explore the whole breadth of content rather than asking you to bumrush and bypass all the old content just so you can grind the newer content. This is a model used by other MMOs such as WoW, and while I don't have anything against people that enjoy this model, if I wanted to play an MMO with that model there are many, many games vast superior to XI in terms of mechanics and especially customer service that offer such a model.

I fully expect the sycophants to start flooding in and telling me to get out of the game now, because a forum used to collect feedback clearly isn't the place to have any sort of actual discussion about the game.

Most the long term player base I know feels exactly the way you do including myself. If they do not address a fix to these things soon, I see most of the player base jumping ship with you mate. Also, SE you should know none of us plan to jump to FFXIV. Not a single person I have chatted with says they plan to go that way if FFXI goes south, it only proves to us you will drive FFXIV into the ground also. Being a 20+ year player of squaresoft SE games it is a sad time to see the Final Fantasy series you grew to love so much die this way.

[Asymptotic]

So now that we've determined that obtaining Naakual weapons will not be particularly difficult at all (probably not even as difficult as a level 85 Empyrean) -- what do people think!

[Crusader81]

Most the long term player base I know feels exactly the way you do including myself. If they do not address a fix to these things soon, I see most of the player base jumping ship with you mate. Also, SE you should know none of us plan to jump to FFXIV. Not a single person I have chatted with says they plan to go that way if FFXI goes south, it only proves to us you will drive FFXIV into the ground also. Being a 20+ year player of squaresoft SE games it is a sad time to see the Final Fantasy series you grew to love so much die this way.

I've already gone the way of FFXIV, it's amazing! makes me feel like an idiot for playing this game for the past 9 years.. for so many reason, especially to only to get treated like this at the end.. I cancelled my XI sub and I'm all for XIV! Even though things are horrible over in Vana'diel things in Eorzea have never been better!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhaHhE8R8GY&feature=share&list=UUpx2BZg8ABgaDV50sGJtWAg
That'll catch you up to where we're at.

When the PS3 XIV players are added in a few weeks, I think you'll be knowing a few people going that way. XIV has already had huge numbers of applicants and they haven't even advertised, It think it'll be just fine.

http://i46.tinypic.com/25qt9xz.jpg

[Concerned4FFxi]

Hey, that does sound great about 14, but i'm spent over here after 11, so no 14 for me, thanks.

And, since we all dropped $40 on 11 and not on 14, lets get back to Balancing the isssue...

Balance, like REM...
Balance, like that was the word of the centurary last year, this year it's "working as intended"...

[Concerned4FFxi]

So we are only a few hundred shy of 20,000 views, and this thread has yet to recieve offical attention. Why? Because SE has no plans to fix this, and they don't care. A vague answer by the director, 20,000 concerned vbiews and you would think a small response just to clear things up would be in order...if they WERE going to do something about it. Silence, in this case, is another way of saying "Go away! Deal with it."

my problem, and many opthers I imagine, is that all last year the nerf/balance bat was used, but in the end it was all BS, there's no balance, the only balancing SE wants is your money. And if turning 11 into another WOW is going to (in SE's mind) make them money, then screw you, me, and anyone else that gets stepped on. But what SE doesn't figure, because if they did figure they wouldn't release SOA like it is (buggy as hell) or 14 as it was, is I turn into slippery mush when I'm walked on. Watch out you don't slip.

This company has a history of thumbing their noses, wearing blindfolds and earplugs. The only time they pay attention is AFTER their ship hits an iceberg.

[Vold]

I am reading through here wondering to myself as I take a trip to the "official" forums outside BG and FFXIAH, where the heck are the DEVS? Why are they not commenting on these, the concerns of the player base? I have been playing this game 9+ years like many and I am about at my limit with SE.



So we are only a few hundred shy of 20,000 views, and this thread has yet to recieve offical attention. Why? Because SE has no plans to fix this, and they don't care.

/shakeshead

You know, after the entire empyrean weapon debacle that lasted month after month, I had hoped most, if not all of you would have learned your lessons on this subject. If you truly believe, at least as far as the good relic/myth/emp weapons go, that your insanely large investment of gil is going to be shit on, well... I guess I'll say this AGAIN. Also I will note that hex gear imho was meant to be plentiful. I ain't counting it.

If these weapons were not better than what you have then you would not waste your time farming them. Only to have RME improved later and for you to waste more time upgrading them. It's all a scheme to get you to stay logging in. If SE were to do what some people suggest, which is slap me across my face after all the headaches I had to endure earning that gil, namely dealing with idiot seller competition, I would be done with this game and damn sure no chance of wasting my time in 14.

You do not bitch slap that specific part of your playerbase that keeps the game going. At this point in FFXI's lifespan, that is a majority of the FFXI subscribers for damn sure. I refuse to accept SE would be so careless, or that they would want it to happen. They make dumb decisions like everyone does, but this here would be one for the record books.

[Karbuncle]

If these weapons weren't better than RME99, They could still easily beat RME95, and be worth most peoples investments, since not many people plan to take their RME to 99... I still see more 85/90 Empyreans than i can count. Its not hard or far-fetched to create weapons that sh*t on 90~95 RME's, but just a few % behind 99 RME's. This is the kind of balance they should have aimed for.

I mean, I've never looked at an update note and though of quitting because my Relic was still the best... i just instead turned my head toward new armor lol. Though before i worked on my Mandau, I can safely say new daggers gave me a headache. Asteria is just plain retarded. XD

Saddly, its all a pointless debate at this point. Until we know officially what their plans for RME are, if any, its all speculation. Plus, a lot of RME still have superiority, though quite a few lost it.

Edit: Oh and this isn't to you void/

Edit2: Am I the only one who enjoys the stupidity in going "SCREW SQUARE-ENIX AND THEIR MMO, I'M JUMPING TO THEIR NEXT GEN MMO, THAT'LL SHOW EM"?

[Taint2]

Edit2: Am I the only one who enjoys the stupidity in going "SCREW SQUARE-ENIX AND THEIR MMO, I'M JUMPING TO THEIR NEXT GEN MMO, THAT'LL SHOW EM"?



Amen to that, FFXI has been a cash cow for years. If they shut down the servers tomorrow it will go down as a huge business success. The smart move would be to keep the remaining player base happy while investing funds into new products/ventures, they seem to be doing exactly that besides a few butthurt players and their REMs. (6 relics,8 emps here for the record and like the Reive system)

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

So we are only a few hundred shy of 20,000 views

I can't speak for the other 19,999, but I'm here mostly for the entertainment value.

[Raksha]

For my part, i'm glad that the SCH mythic is shit. I really dont want to have to do salvage and nyzul anyway.

I keep my Nuke set in pretty good shape, but I can't remember the last time i was ever asked to nuke anything. Making a mythic just to continue to be ignored isnt my idea of fun.

[Richwood]

Whelp I did not realize this thread was at such a high view rate. Also 33 pages of comments is nothing to snub at. So now I am stuck wondering why SE is ignoring this topic?

[tyrantsyn]

It's what they do. ^^

[Camiie]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyJustDidntCare

[Zagen]

Whelp I did not realize this thread was at such a high view rate. Also 33 pages of comments is nothing to snub at. So now I am stuck wondering why SE is ignoring this topic?

Might have something to do with the OP's Like count of 11 (at the time of me posting)... such a high view rate and reply amount yet only 11 likes, quite telling about how much crying over certain relics/emps/mythics being out damaged by theses new "common" weapons is really going on.

[Teraniku]

If I were SE, I'd ignore it, because no matter what they do with RME not everyone is going to be happy.

[Camiie]

If I were SE, I'd ignore it, because no matter what they do with RME not everyone is going to be happy.

Because it's better that no one is happy than someone?

[Alhanelem]

Whelp I did not realize this thread was at such a high view rate. Also 33 pages of comments is nothing to snub at. So now I am stuck wondering why SE is ignoring this topic?
Number of pages has never been a metric by which they decide whether or not to respond.

anyway... is the hth weapon worth giving up victory smite for?

[Asymptotic]

Might have something to do with the OP's Like count of 11 (at the time of me posting)... such a high view rate and reply amount yet only 11 likes, quite telling about how much crying over certain relics/emps/mythics being out damaged by theses new "common" weapons is really going on.

NA forum threads rarely have many likes even if the subject is immensely popular (compare to JP forum where unpopular posts on random pages will have 20+ likes)

[Zagen]

NA forum threads rarely have many likes even if the subject is immensely popular (compare to JP forum where unpopular posts on random pages will have 20+ likes)

Yeah I guess so... Taking a look around the General Forums it seems NA as a community is more concerned with enmity issues, paid race changes, folded arm emotes, and drop issues from Wildskeeper Reives.

[Zumi]

Number of pages has never been a metric by which they decide whether or not to respond.

anyway... is the hth weapon worth giving up victory smite for?

Outside of abyssea the Verethragna already loses to Spharai with Shijin Spiral, its much more constant then Victory Smite. VS greatly relies on Impetus or crit buffs like in abyssea to be good. VS is pretty inconstant because of its crit modifier. We are pretty much past the days of abyssea.

The new monk weapon Tlalpoloani drops from one of the Wildskeeper Reives NMs Achuka. Now then it costs 100k Bayld to enter, and you have to actually get the drop.

[Alhanelem]

Outside of abyssea the Verethragna already loses to Spharai with Shijin Spiral, its much more constant then Victory Smite. VS greatly relies on Impetus or crit buffs like in abyssea to be good. VS is pretty inconstant because of its crit modifier. We are pretty much past the days of abyssea.

The new monk weapon Tlalpoloani drops from one of the Wildskeeper Reives NMs Achuka. Now then it costs 100k Bayld to enter, and you have to actually get the drop.PUP can't use Spharai. This is specifically directed towards PUP.

For me the main attraction of VS in the first place was being able to do solo light, both with the automaton and by using tactical switch. (Buuuuuuut.... I only have the WoE weapon as I was never able to get vereth). For me at least, VS was better than pummel with the same weapon, as you didn't need as many hits and therefore are more likely to land them all. (Edit: even the lv99 WoE weapon is barely more than half the base damage of the reieve weapon- glad I wasted so much time on that...)

Ignoring verethregana, I'm really not too sure what to go for. The base damage on this reieve weapon is more than double what I have now, but it may be unrealistic to obtain. I guess you're right though, VS is really only dominant in abyssea. Is there somethinng markedly better than revenant fists +2 other than verethregana that I can find without breaking my back?

Edit: The skirmish weapon, at least before augmentation, isn't all that much better. It seems what I was talking about was this:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ee8lmu.png which would seem to blow every other hth weapon in the game for either job out of the water. But this doesn't seem to be the skirmish weapon.

[Asymptotic]

Bayld is easy to get and everyone gets R / EX gear as long as you do stuff consistently during the Reive. I'm not even sure you have to actually contribute to damaging the Naakual. I WS'd Tchakka once and got a Macoquetza (I spent the rest of the time killing adds and made back 30k of the 100k entry fee from evaluations including the 4k evaluation at the end and the 1k I made mysteriously while dead)

Naakual gear is extremely easy to get (and will just get easier since they're lowering the cost of entry next week if you've bothered to keep your coalition ranks up)


(The Skirmish weapon easily beats the Naakual H2H even with mediocre augments)

[MarkovChain]

No there are no gimp weapons that can beat vere, is that surprising ? Your argument about being able to solo light with your puppet is IMO wrong. I got level 99 Kenkonken recently and parsed myself on a reive (attacking a wall, hasted). The pet was doing 1% of the total damage, I was doing 46% and a vere monk was doing 53% (dualboxed and wearing pdt gear). So basically there is no way you can close or open light with your pet often enough to justify vere over other weapons. Skirmish weapons are fairly easy to obtain and even an average augment on a +1 ghasty stone+ninza are going to beat the DPS of vere and all other pup weapons.

Stringing plummel is not that nice. The only realistic gear pup should be wearing during SP is attack because the mods are garbage. With shijin you will have access to to 100% dex mod, so in theory at least it is much easier to attune.

Skirmish weapon are fairly easy to obtain compared to empy and relics too. You have 10% chance to get a ninza per run and a run will cost you maybe 2M since you'll split the cost between 6 members. By the time you obtain it you will likely get several ghasty+1 stones too. Tlalpoloani atm is about on par with +1 stone augments so I would not suggest aiming for it.

[MarkovChain]

Oh and me and mdk think that the nakkual fights are meant to be aimed for casual players, because the weapons are basically soloable, all you need is spam reives to get your bayld. Beside they are great but not as great as skirmish wpns. At one point I though that they would be augmentable but with the introduction of delve I don't think so. They are basically the cruor gear of SOA.

[Toioiz]

Got a pair of ninza last night on my 9th skirmish run, augmented it with a +1 stone to DMG 59 Delay 51. Higher DMG and lower delay than my 99 spharai. Working on calculations right now to see which I should use for which events/etc.

[Alhanelem]

No there are no gimp weapons that can beat vere, is that surprising ? I'm not specifically looking to beat verethregana- Only to beat +2 or +3 rev fists.



Skirmish weapon are fairly easy to obtain compared to empy and relics too. You have 10% chance to get a ninza per run and a run will cost you maybe 2M since you'll split the cost between 6 members. By the time you obtain it you will likely get several ghasty+1 stones too. Tlalpoloani atm is about on par with +1 stone augments so I would not suggest aiming for it. So wait, the ghastly stone augments can bring up the DMG on the skirmish weapons *that* much? to be "on par" the augments would have to be pretty crazy.


The pet was doing 1% of the total damage, I was doing 46% and a vere monk was doing 53% (dualboxed and wearing pdt gear). So basically there is no way you can close or open light with your pet often enough to justify vere over other weapons.Any frame/head other than soulsoother or harlequin should be able to do more than 1% of the damage against you.

(@ above: "9th skirmish run?" I've not once ever seen one of those simulacrum parts drop, nor do i even know anyone else who has...)

[Toioiz]

They can, I have a DMG 151 GTK that outperforms 99 masamune and amano in pure #'s, and a 59 DMG knuckles that out perform 99 Spharai. These are both with just +1 stone augments.

[Taint2]

They can, I have a DMG 151 GTK that outperforms 99 masamune and amano in pure #'s, and a 59 DMG knuckles that out perform 99 Spharai. These are both with just +1 stone augments.


Skirmish GKT doesn't touch Masa99 or Amano99.

The H2H weapons are beastly however.

[Asymptotic]

Stringing plummel is not that nice. The only realistic gear pup should be wearing during SP is attack because the mods are garbage. With shijin you will have access to to 100% dex mod, so in theory at least it is much easier to attune.
.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/295972
Fortunately! Pretty much all of the best WS gear PUP gets for Stringing Pummel is full of Attack!
Outside of Matanca Harness, it's pretty reasonable to obtain too.

With an appropriate set, SP will perform 1.5-2x that of Shijin Spiral (but Shijin is much easier to maximize as you said)

[Toioiz]

Skirmish GKT doesn't touch Masa99 or Amano99.

The H2H weapons are beastly however.

SAM DPS spreadsheet disagrees with you. But I'm willing to see the math behind this statement.

[Monchat]

Got a pair of ninza last night on my 9th skirmish run, augmented it with a +1 stone to DMG 59 Delay 51. Higher DMG and lower delay than my 99 spharai. Working on calculations right now to see which I should use for which events/etc.

ninzas with DMG 52 should be enough to beat spharai, ninzas with DMG65 to beat wildskieper reive h2h.

[Taint2]

SAM DPS spreadsheet disagrees with you. But I'm willing to see the math behind this statement.


Any other stats on the GKT or just DMG+25?


You are probably assuming Shoha is SAMs best WS....lol.



To better explain: Fudo,Kaiten,Namas are all superior to Shoha unless attack is starved or you are rocking Koga. If attack is low enough that Shoha is the best WS then the other attributes of Masa/Amano will also come into play. 151 damage 450 delay GKT is coming in a solid 5th best SAM weapon.

[Toioiz]

I'm not, I as calculating with Gekko, Shoha, Fudo(Masa), and Kaitien(Amano). DMG +25 STR +1 DEX +6.

[Toioiz]

It should also be said, that other weapons are doing much better WS dmg overall with shoha (Exp. TP bonus weapons), but the overall DPS is what matters, I'm assuming SoA mobs, VT non-capped attack.

[Alhanelem]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/295972
Fortunately! Pretty much all of the best WS gear PUP gets for Stringing Pummel is full of Attack!
Outside of Matanca Harness, it's pretty reasonable to obtain too.

With an appropriate set, SP will perform 1.5-2x that of Shijin Spiral (but Shijin is much easier to maximize as you said)Good stuff to know.

[Byrth]

In buffed situations the difference is more like 20%. But yeah, Stringing Pummel with 99 Kenkonken is better than Shijin Spiral.

[Taint2]

non-capped attack.

Thats when you use Shoha...but name an event where a R/E user would only use Shoha? The only one I can think of Odin2 where I use Shoha 90% of the time. There are a few Legion mobs I use Shoha on as well but I also use Mura for them. (Naraka,Rex etc)


Bukhis (101lvl mob)

GK GK
Tachi: Shoha Tachi: Kaiten
0% 24%
0 0
210 210
0 0

Set 1 Set 2
540 596
360.291 409.409

3.25 3.32
3153 3553

4910 5532
413 410

714.080 809.625



Qilin 110


GK GK
Tachi: Shoha Tachi: Kaiten
0% 24%
0 0
210 210
0 0

Set 1 Set 2
426 482
284.084 330.656

3.25 3.32
2493 2810

3879 4408
413 410

564.057 645.075



Don't get me wrong its a good GKT, but its not competeing with the 99 REM class for SAM. I'm sure there is a situation that exist where it pulls ahead but for the other 99% of the game its falling behind.

[Toioiz]

I would be interested to know the gearsets/options you used to get those numbers, they are *way* different than the results I'm getting from my gearsets on any mobs.

[Taint2]

I would be interested to know the gearsets/options you used to get those numbers, they are *way* different than the results I'm getting from my gearsets on any mobs.





Gear
Skirmish GKT
Duplus
Hagneia Stone
Usukane +1
Ganesha
Brutal
Unkai
Unkai +2
Tenryu +1 Aug
Rajas
Tyrant
Misuuchi
Phos +1
Unkai +2
Usukane +1






Gear
Skirmish GKT
Duplus
Thew Bomblet
Mekira-oto +1
Gorget
Brutal
Vulcan
Phorcys
Phorcys
Strigoi
Pyrosoul
Unkai
Ele.Belt
Tenryu +1 Aug
Omodaka



5hits both weapons (450 delay can lose 4stp in TP phase but you are looking at incredibly small gains if any)

You haven't posted a thing except "thats not what I'm getting." Post your numbers....

[Toioiz]

Wow, so yeah not using expensive gear on mine, commonly available stuff, enough to get a 5hit but not +1 gear.



Weapon Type GK GK
Weaponskill Tachi: Shoha Tachi: Fudo
ODD Rate 0% 24%
Mythic AM2 0 0
AM2 TP 210 210
Mythic AM3 0 0

Results Set 1 Set 2
Melee damage per round 258 293
Melee DPS 65.464 78.794

Rounds/WS 4.06 4.44
WS Dmg 1976 1742

Total Cycle Damage 3346 3331
Total Cycle Time 1082 1109

Total DPS 185.608 180.154

[Sapphires]

This grindy, random loot and augment crap that is SoA reminds me of diablo and i'm not interested.

So is SE ever going to comment on R/M/E 's getting an upgrade or are they going to just try and bleed everyone a few more subscription cycles before giving us false hope?
I'm not really in the mood to bayld grind and die of boredom or wait much longer before unsubscribing until they make a statement on this.

I never thought i'd say this, but maybe Tanaka leaving was bad for ffxi, these new weapons and stupid imbalance of time investment vs loot reward never would have happened under his watch.

[MarkovChain]

Wow, so yeah not using expensive gear on mine, commonly available stuff, enough to get a 5hit but not +1 gear.



Weapon Type GK GK
Weaponskill Tachi: Shoha Tachi: Fudo
ODD Rate 0% 24%
Mythic AM2 0 0
AM2 TP 210 210
Mythic AM3 0 0

Results Set 1 Set 2
Melee damage per round 258 293
Melee DPS 65.464 78.794

Rounds/WS 4.06 4.44
WS Dmg 1976 1742

Total Cycle Damage 3346 3331
Total Cycle Time 1082 1109

Total DPS 185.608 180.154
What is the 24% for ? The empy ODD should be 30 or 50%, the relic would be 18%. Anyway I'm using the same-ish gear as Taint2 using anormal VT mobs from adoulin (motenten included chapulis) :

The JP wiki doesn't list any augment on the GK for +2 stone, it says +24 for a +1 stone so I'll assume it's D+30 STR+5 dex+5 (as those stats are found on the +1 stones)

Hasso/haste/marchx2/minuetx2/ no dia and no berserk

relic GK : 670 DPS
Shichishito : 719 DPS


Hasso/haste/marchx2/no minuet / no dia and no berserk

relic GK : 567 DPS
Shichishito : 675 DPS

Hasso/haste/no marches /no minuet / no dia and no berserk

relic GK : 285 DPS
Shichishito : 337 DPS

Hasso/haste/marches x2 /minuet x 2 / dia II / berserk

relic GK : 791 DPS
Shichishito : 741 DPS

Except when you bring your personnal DDB bard or COR it seems better, besides, we have no clue what the job specific enhancement on the +2 stones are, if any (mnk has counter+).

[hiko]

Any frame/head other than soulsoother or harlequin should be able to do more than 1% of the damage against you.

)
not when the master get ghorndabla99s buffs. he can increase pet dps but he loose a lot more master dps on ja delay

[MarkovChain]

I did an ADL popset farming run yesterday on PUP ( 24 NMs plus 6 Dynamis lords). With KKK I could pop 3x wind maneuver between NMs without overloading so the pet had max haste. We had marchx2 minuetx2 boost dex haste and dia2

pimp MNK1 with vere afterglow : 28.44%
dual boxed mnk with vere : 24.67%
dual boxed mnk with vere : 21.52%
pup master KKK99 AM1 : 24.52%
puppet : 0.49%

the total damage of the pet was less than 4 stringing pummel and I did 65 of them (averaging about the same as the vere monks). The pet was the melee frame and totalised 7k damage in 2 hours. The blm pet would not have had time to land more than 1 nuke per NM and TBH it would probably be better. The RNG pet has always sucked so it would have been worst most likely.

Dynamis lords have about 80K HP and lesser NMs have about 40k HP.

[Rustic]

What amazes me is that people think "Once best, always best".

This never happens in MMO's, other than when they die. Once upon a time, relics were "best". Then they got upgrades, and those were "best". New expansions come along. "Best" always moves forward.

Otherwise, we'd all still be fighting over who gets Ridill and hiring hit teams to take out whoever was in line next for that Joyeuse spawn, while demanding our local senator get the RMT facility where they're claimbotting Fafnir blown up with a drone strike.

You have two choices. Stagnation or the inevitable improvement that makes your prior gear no longer relevant over time.

[Horadrim]

I did an ADL popset farming run yesterday on PUP ( 24 NMs plus 6 Dynamis lords). With KKK I could pop 3x wind maneuver between NMs without overloading so the pet had max haste. We had marchx2 minuetx2 boost dex haste and dia2

pimp MNK1 with vere afterglow : 28.44%
dual boxed mnk with vere : 24.67%
dual boxed mnk with vere : 21.52%
pup master KKK99 AM1 : 24.52%
puppet : 0.49%

the total damage of the pet was less than 4 stringing pummel and I did 65 of them (averaging about the same as the vere monks). The pet was the melee frame and totalised 7k damage in 2 hours. The blm pet would not have had time to land more than 1 nuke per NM and TBH it would probably be better. The RNG pet has always sucked so it would have been worst most likely.

Dynamis lords have about 80K HP and lesser NMs have about 40k HP.

Don't do this.

You know exactly what I'm talking about and why its wrong. Could just as easily called it "Ken"...


What amazes me is that people think "Once best, always best".

This never happens in MMO's, other than when they die. Once upon a time, relics were "best". Then they got upgrades, and those were "best". New expansions come along. "Best" always moves forward.

Otherwise, we'd all still be fighting over who gets Ridill and hiring hit teams to take out whoever was in line next for that Joyeuse spawn, while demanding our local senator get the RMT facility where they're claimbotting Fafnir blown up with a drone strike.

You have two choices. Stagnation or the inevitable improvement that makes your prior gear no longer relevant over time.

That's why I kept saying, but apparently FFXI is different for some unknown reason.

[MarkovChain]

AM3 is impossible to maintain

[Alhanelem]

Don't do this.

You know exactly what I'm talking about and why its wrong. Could just as easily called it "Ken"...



You know very well what it is meant to mean, context is everything. If you're getting offended over that you really need to lighten up and not allow yourself to be offended by things that you already know aren't meant in that context.

and "Ken" could just as easily mean a person named Ken-- it's not any less ambigous.

[Byrth]

Yeah, except that pchan is French and probably doesn't bother keeping up with US hate groups. In FFXI circles, KKK is the prevalent abbreviation for Kenkonken and it is fine to use it that way.

PS. Pchan, he was referring to KKK = Ku Klux Klan, a racist group that was very large in the early 20th century in the US.
PPS. I also agree that it's not reasonable to maintain AM3 when doing things like ADL pop NMs, but it is reasonable for stuff like merit-style killing, Voidwatch, Reives, whatever.

[Horadrim]

You know very well what it is meant to mean, context is everything. If you're getting offended over that you really need to lighten up and not allow yourself to be offended by things that you already know aren't meant in that context.

and "Ken" could just as easily mean a person named Ken-- it's not any less ambigous.

Not offended, I just think its easy enough to find a different abbreviation. Sorry that I'd prefer not to see "KKK" plastered all over the place? I'd prefer if that didn't become/continue to be a thing.

Meanwhile the idea that someone wouldn't know the reference just because they are from another country seems silly to me, but maybe I overestimate people's awareness of events in countries not their own historically or otherwise.


I also agree that it's not reasonable to maintain AM3 when doing things like ADL pop NMs, but it is reasonable for stuff like merit-style killing, Voidwatch, Reives, whatever.

Is it really that difficult to maintain AM3? Legitimate question, since Empyrean weapons aren't really my thing.

[Asymptotic]

If you don't have an inherent method of fast TP generation (DNC SAM DRG) then it's hard to maintain AM3 on certain types of content

Furthermore when people talk about AM3 maintenance they're talking about Mythics, not Empyreans

[Horadrim]

If you don't have an inherent method of fast TP generation (DNC SAM DRG) then it's hard to maintain AM3 on certain types of content

Furthermore when people talk about AM3 maintenance they're talking about Mythics, not Empyreans

Ah.

Don't Empyreans have 3 stages of Aftermath as well?

[Asymptotic]

Yes but Mythic AM3 is
"Occasionally attacks Twice or Thrice" (20% triple 40% double) for 3 minutes that can proc on WS (once)

Empyrean AM3 is
"Occasionally deals double damage" (50%) for 90 seconds (melee strikes only)

Empyrean AM3 isn't bad it's just not worth using if you don't have free 300TP for some reason

[Horadrim]

Yes but Mythic AM3 is
"Occasionally attacks Twice or Thrice" (20% triple 40% double) for 3 minutes that can proc on WS (once)

Empyrean AM3 is
"Occasionally deals double damage" (50%) for 90 seconds (melee strikes only)

Empyrean AM3 isn't bad it's just not worth using if you don't have free 300TP for some reason

Good info, makes sense.

This is why I'd greatly prefer making a mythic to finishing my Arma or Verethragna.. :/ If only the Alexandrite requirements weren't so high.

[Karbuncle]

What amazes me is that people think "Once best, always best".

This never happens in MMO's, other than when they die. Once upon a time, relics were "best". Then they got upgrades, and those were "best". New expansions come along. "Best" always moves forward.



except in FFXI Where they intentionally designed super weapons to remain best. which was specified further when the 75 cap break came. they upgraded them so theyd stay best.

i'll touch the point on joyeuse and whatever, which arent superweapons, and most expected it conceivable they could be repd.

i'll also bring up you should read the thread... what you've said has been posted and responded too about eighty times now :/

i'd go on but typing sucks on this. read a previous post of mine on this, i agree on stagnation sucking... but weapons arent the only upgradeable item in ffxi..we have 11 other slots :/

[Alhanelem]

Meanwhile the idea that someone wouldn't know the reference just because they are from another country seems silly to me, but maybe I overestimate people's awareness of events in countries not their own historically or otherwise.It's not silly, because the KKK was/is primarily an American organization. it is very understandable that someone from europe would know nothing about it.

...anyway, In the meantime, I'm going to create an anti-Tarutaru cult called the PPP so that people will react with outrage anytime anything else is abbriviated PPP.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

except in FFXI Where they intentionally designed super weapons to remain best. which was specified further when the 75 cap break came. they upgraded them so theyd stay best.

And 75 was going to be the level cap forever and ever.

[detlef]

Well, they they did update RME with each level cap increase.

[Karbuncle]

And 75 was going to be the level cap forever and ever.

This is actually what I'd love to see quoted on. I know they mentioned several times they had no current plans to raise the cap, But I don't think it was ever stated "It will be 75 forever" (though, I would like if someone could prove me wrong here).

However, RME's were stated during the cap increase as "Remaining the Best", or to some lesser words. Then again "Will remain the best" could be interpreted as a current plan direction and thus be forfeit same as the idea of 75 cap was a certainty for many years, though i don't believe ever stated in "absolute".

[Alhanelem]

I'd imagine any upgrades to R/M/E will come through augmentation, on the sole basis that I don't think anyone should be forced to do the afterglow trial, when afterglow is the only thing it adds and is disporportionately difficult/time consuming compared to all previous trials.

[Zagen]

I'd imagine any upgrades to R/M/E will come through augmentation, on the sole basis that I don't think anyone should be forced to do the afterglow trial, when afterglow is the only thing it adds and is disporportionately difficult/time consuming compared to all previous trials.
Unless they change their mind the update is going to be for 99 with and without afterglow.

[Karbuncle]

I actually like the idea of Augmenting.

But seriously, If i see anything like "Steal/Mug/Treasure Hunter/Despoil/Gilfinder" + on my Mandau, I'm using it to pick the bones of the devs out of my fat digital mithran ass when i'm done with them. See how much gil they drop. >=(

[Asymptotic]

My original suggesion on FFXIAH was that they upgrade the performance of RME99 through the coalitions -- I actually fooled a few people into thinking it was in the game on accident

Ahh I found it!



*
To be honest, the Inventor's Coalition in Adoulin reeks of a system for further enhancing RME.

To be honest, the Inventor's Coalition in Adoulin reeks of a system for further enhancing RME.

&lt;Inventor NPC 1&gt; Oh, is that a legendary weapon from the middle lands? May I take a look at it?
&lt;Inventor NPC 2&gt; Wow, that's amazing craftsmanship and it's coursing with energy just waiting to be released. But it's covered in moogle hair, so if you want us to bring out this weapon's hidden power, you're going to have to gather some ingredients for us to cleanse it!
&lt;Inventor NPC1&gt;The first thing we need is Matriarch Toxin (Key Item). This will serve as a solvent for the other ingredients. We're not sure where you can find one, but you adventurers always seem to have your sources.
&lt;Inventor NPC2&gt;Oh, we'll also require a fee of 50,000 Bayld to research and process the Matriarch Toxin.
&lt;Inventor NPC1&gt;Oh, and if you have the time, please bring us lunch!
...
&lt;Inventor NPC2&gt; Wow, you found the Matriarch Toxin! That's amazing, how did you ever acquire this? We'll get to researching right away.
.....
&lt;Inventor NPC1&gt;We've researched te Matriarch Toxin and we've pretty much pinpointed its properties! Well, next we'll need to grind up a Riptide Fang (Key Item) .


etc. etc.

You get the idea.


I would definitely rather them require us to do something story-wise in Adoulin to power up 99RME to Adoulinian standards than just hocus-pocus your Mandau is now D65


(My original concept for this exchange would be that the NPCs would eventually request a KI from each Naakual to upgrade 99 RME and would also request Bayld + food items with each upgrade and run an errand for each Coalition, eventually you find out that all of the stuff you were doing had absolutely nothing to do with upgrading your weapon at all and Amchuchu intervenes and augments your weapon)

[Karbuncle]

"A few people" says the dick who tricked me.

[Asymptotic]

I was just proposing how they could do it - I didn't mean to trick anyone Q_Q
#OrsonWelles

[Horadrim]

I was just proposing how they could do it - I didn't mean to trick anyone Q_Q
#OrsonWelles

I don't know.

I still feel like a system where having RME imparts special high tier augments on a new ultimate weapon would be a more interesting route to go.

Then again, I just like diversity in people's weapon choice. A system where you could impart legendary status on one of several different weapons -- like a quest that lets you create your own, unique, ultimate weapon. A "[Character's Name]'s Ultimate [Weapon of Choice]" with RME-based augments, or that is good within its own rights a la base stats seems like a fun idea.

But again, that's me.

[Manux]

no soner or later people with relics need to realis they cant always have the best weapon in the game

you will need to reliase its not cheap farming hours of end to get those weapons. Thats why they are best weapons in game.

[Zagen]

you will need to realiase its not cheap farming hours of end to get those weapons. Thats why they are best weapons in game.
Time = Gil I get it, but um...

Relics take 4-5 months if you don't buy currency, solo. All the other requirements can either be soloed or duoed.
Emps take 1-2 months if you don't buy pops/drops. All can be duo/trioed.
Mythics take 4-6 months from scratch (can be less depending on previous progression). Requires 3-6 people depending on event/part of the quest. Some can honestly be soloed using certain jobs/tactics.
VW HQ Weapons 1 fight to 1 year+ (personally I'm going on 1 year of VW now and have yet to see one).


Times are based around more of an average player's time and dedication over a "hardcore" or "elitist" player. Oh wait VW HQ weapons were never the "best" merely situational at "best" yet they can take much longer because of the stupid low drop rates.

[Byrth]

Well, if Time = Gil, then:
* Relics take about 135mil worth of time to get to 99 with negligable extra requirements (a few hours extra).
* Empyreans take about 165mil (dross) or 195mil (cinder) worth of time to get to 99 with some extra requirements (probably a week of playtime?)
* Mythics take 330mil worth of time to get to 99 with huge additional time-sink requirements
* HQ VW weapons take 15-25mil worth of time

So HQ VW weapons don't really rank among the other weapons in the hierarchy that you listed, and mythics trounce the other weapons in terms of effort even at 10k per Alexandrite.

[Horadrim]

Well, if Time = Gil, then:
* Relics take about 135mil worth of time to get to 99 with negligable extra requirements (a few hours extra).
* Empyreans take about 165mil (dross) or 195mil (cinder) worth of time to get to 99 with some extra requirements (probably a week of playtime?)
* Mythics take 330mil worth of time to get to 99 with huge additional time-sink requirements
* HQ VW weapons take 15-25mil worth of time

So HQ VW weapons don't really rank among the other weapons in the hierarchy that you listed, and mythics trounce the other weapons in terms of effort even at 10k per Alexandrite.

...?

I'll have to go back and read the post, but yeah... HQ VW weapons aren't even close. >_> Isn't that exactly why people are so anti-Skirmish? Because the intrinsic value is greater than the cost of effort?


Time = Gil I get it, but um...

Relics take 4-5 months if you don't buy currency, solo. All the other requirements can either be soloed or duoed.
Emps take 1-2 months if you don't buy pops/drops. All can be duo/trioed.
Mythics take 4-6 months from scratch (can be less depending on previous progression). Requires 3-6 people depending on event/part of the quest. Some can honestly be soloed using certain jobs/tactics.
VW HQ Weapons 1 fight to 1 year+ (personally I'm going on 1 year of VW now and have yet to see one).


Times are based around more of an average player's time and dedication over a "hardcore" or "elitist" player. Oh wait VW HQ weapons were never the "best" merely situational at "best" yet they can take much longer because of the stupid low drop rates.

Should be noted that a 90-stage Empyrean takes closer to a week. Otherwise, yep.

[Zagen]

So HQ VW weapons don't really rank among the other weapons in the hierarchy that you listed, and mythics trounce the other weapons in terms of effort even at 10k per Alexandrite.

HQ VW weapons weren't intended to truly matter, I used them as an example because they can take much longer to get than R/E/M take due to them not having a luck factor involved. Making the argument that R/E/M take longer to get so they should remain relevant is pointless when compared to stupid items that require sheer luck either on your part or other's parts (those selling cells). Also arguing for time when you're doing something designed to waste time is dumb.


Should be noted that a 90-stage Empyrean takes closer to a week. Otherwise, yep.
You hold "average players" to a higher standard than I've seen lately.

[Horadrim]

HQ VW weapons weren't intended to truly matter, I used them as an example because they can take much longer to get than R/E/M take due to them not having a luck factor involved. Making the argument that R/E/M take longer to get so they should remain relevant is pointless when compared to stupid items that require sheer luck either on your part or other's parts (those selling cells). Also arguing for time when you're doing something designed to waste time is dumb.


You hold "average players" to a higher standard than I've seen lately.

I'm an "average" player. I got to Chesma stage Verethragna in a weekend (read: a day, plus 12 hours on Tuulo... because he's an asshole), and if I devoted time to it daily, I could probably finish within a week. As much as I hate the first trials, I feel like the most time consuming part (the first 3 stages of Abyssea mobs) shouldn't take someone who's serious about it very long.

I don't take the game seriously enough nor endorse the elitism people display in it enough to really allow myself to be stressed over it -- but I feel it goes without saying an "average" player is someone who likes improving their character and is willing to devote time towards a goal if it is interesting and rewarding; but not so much as to stress themselves out. They can be kind of annoying, but most of the mobs drop other things that some players want, farming a few KI sets a day and then killing it is easy when you're offering up all of the other drops as free lot to people. Especially mobs like Cirein, for example, who is a zone boss and relatively easy to take down.

Maybe I'm more hardcore than I think I am, but I can get a lot done in an evening after work if I focus -- so I'd assume this kind of thing wouldn't be too hard. And I'm a guy with no real linkshell and very, very few in-game friends to deal with as a result of only being back a short time.

I think the people you're talking about (I definitely have seen them) are a bit less than average.

EDIT:

The only thing really holding me back from committing to building an empyrean weapon is my indecisiveness with regards to what job I'll play -- most of which comes from the fact that every one I pick "isn't used for anything" and thus the time investment doesn't seem worth it when I can just buy a nice item from the AH and use that to solo random junk around abyssea or do Reives -- which is what I end up having to do 90% of the time (or it is a job like DRG, which I get told that building the empy isn't really worth the hassle.)

[Byrth]

HQ VW weapons weren't intended to truly matter, I used them as an example because they can take much longer to get than R/E/M take due to them not having a luck factor involved. Making the argument that R/E/M take longer to get so they should remain relevant is pointless when compared to stupid items that require sheer luck either on your part or other's parts (those selling cells). Also arguing for time when you're doing something designed to waste time is dumb.

See, they don't have a luck factor involved because you can just buy the cells and assemble the weapon for 15-25mil. If Time=gil, then they only take 15-25mil worth of time. That's why I pointed them out specifically.

I personally obtained 2 Skirmish pieces (from Soul Pyres just doing Adoulin stuff randomly) and combined them with another guy's piece to do Skirmish. We got 3 weapons and some Ghastly Stones and stuff. Overall, not difficult at all and I didn't even have to go out of my way. I probably could have sold my investment for 15mil or so total (two II pieces) and bought a Pulse weapon, but Skirmish weapons are much better than Pulse weapons.

If there is no reason to obtain relics, mythics, or empyreans anymore, the bottom will drop out of the Dynamis Currency/Marrow/Alexandrite/Voidwatch item market and SE will have effectively shelved a huge amount of content. I don't think they'd do that.

[Taint2]

See, they don't have a luck factor involved because you can just buy the cells and assemble the weapon for 15-25mil. If Time=gil, then they only take 15-25mil worth of time. That's why I pointed them out specifically.

I personally obtained 2 Skirmish pieces (from Soul Pyres just doing Adoulin stuff randomly) and combined them with another guy's piece to do Skirmish. We got 3 weapons and some Ghastly Stones and stuff. Overall, not difficult at all and I didn't even have to go out of my way. I probably could have sold my investment for 15mil or so total (two II pieces) and bought a Pulse weapon, but Skirmish weapons are much better than Pulse weapons.

If there is no reason to obtain relics, mythics, or empyreans anymore, the bottom will drop out of the Dynamis Currency/Marrow/Alexandrite/Voidwatch item market and SE will have effectively shelved a huge amount of content. I don't think they'd do that.


The HMP market on Cerberus is virtually gone. If VW becomes the only way to upgrade Emp weapons they have already shelved that content. Dynamis currency/Alexandrite will live longer only because the content can be soloed/triboxed but if the prices get low enough then those markets will dry up too. Marrows are already selling for 9mil on Cerberus, there will come a point where it won't be worth it to farm them anymore.

[Zagen]

See, they don't have a luck factor involved because you can just buy the cells and assemble the weapon for 15-25mil. If Time=gil, then they only take 15-25mil worth of time. That's why I pointed them out specifically.


items that require sheer luck either on your part or other's parts (those selling cells).

Bolded since you missed it, just because you were able to build it doesn't mean that everyone looking to do it will be able to do so within a short amount of time.


I personally obtained 2 Skirmish pieces (from Soul Pyres just doing Adoulin stuff randomly) and combined them with another guy's piece to do Skirmish. We got 3 weapons and some Ghastly Stones and stuff. Overall, not difficult at all and I didn't even have to go out of my way. I probably could have sold my investment for 15mil or so total (two II pieces) and bought a Pulse weapon, but Skirmish weapons are much better than Pulse weapons.

I've thus far gotten 0 during my time in SoA zones which is most of my time. There's that luck issue again... I could buy the parts based on AH's bazaar prices if lucky it'll run me 9.5 mil if not so lucky 30 mil+ for a shot at the first tier or rather at a chance for a weapon I want. You could argue this cost can be divided between the participants which is true but again you're still paying for a chance at the weapon you want most, unless you happen to want them all equally. Oh and I'm competing with others for the weapon(s).



If there is no reason to obtain relics, mythics, or empyreans anymore, the bottom will drop out of the Dynamis Currency/Marrow/Alexandrite/Voidwatch item market and SE will have effectively shelved a huge amount of content. I don't think they'd do that.
The thing is they already said they weren't going to do that, and the markets are still crashing. I don't disagree destroying those markets without creating a new one would be a bad idea but then again when something like that is done in other games new markets are created to replace that. For all we know there will be a new "super weapon class" and it will be the "best" weapons to get from then on. Note I'm using best in quotes because despite what SE says and thinks most R/E/M even before SoA weren't the best weapon of it's type.

[Karbuncle]

The markets crashing because of all the uncertainty, thats just economics. No one knows if RME Are going to be sh*t on so a lot of people are playing it safe and waiting.

You also have to take into consideration those who want 95 Emps probably paid the 90~120k a pop for their HMP, and those remaining are waiting for the price to go down because of less demand from people willing to pay those prices. That happens with pretty much all items.

Alex/Currency/HMP/etc will almost assuredly always have a market despite fluctuations, so long as SE doesn't do what it is now and essentially killing it with uncertainty. a vague "Won't go to waste" isn't getting me to make a new Relic or invest 350 MIL on a Nirvana when i can do skirmish and outclass it in like, a few weeks for 1/10th of the price.

[Monchat]

im glad i make all those 99 empy right after the magian trial was introduced. its a hell now to do them, even if its half the price.

[Camate]

Greetings everyone,

I'd like to share a post from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to a comment that was picked up from an interview relating to the future of relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons.



I'd like to deeply apologize for mentioning "Don’t throw away your relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons" during an interview. Relic, mythic, and empyrean (below R/M/E weapons) take a great deal of time and difficulty to obtain, and this expression was extremely lacking in consideration for all of the players who tried so hard to complete them.

What I wished to convey was that we will be implementing a system to build on R/M/E weapons, so please have them in your possession, and there was no other meaning intended.

In regards to this system, the outline has been finished; however, we have yet to test if what we have planned can be realized and if we can secure the proper amount of manpower to continue it. We are at a point in time right now where it's difficult to explain the details, so please allow us to discuss this another day.

For the Adoulin end-game content aimed at the top players, where they can obtain high level equipment as well, we will gradually make adjustments to difficulty so that once new end-game content is released you'll be able to obtain these items if you put in a bit of effort.

Also, we will similarly be adjusting content in existing areas, though it may take some time and be a limited time event.

[Tennotsukai]

Hopefully, these adjustments don't require lvl 99 version R/M/E weapons. I'm having a lengthy time obtaining my first 99 empy still.

[detlef]

But why shouldn't they require the 99 weapon? If your weapon is 85, 90, or 95 then it's not even the best it can be right now.

[Elexia]

Hopefully, these adjustments don't require lvl 99 version R/M/E weapons. I'm having a lengthy time obtaining my first 99 empy still.

It'll require your 99 RME and 1800 Pumice pieces from Hades at 2% drop rate.

[Taint2]

Hopefully, these adjustments don't require lvl 99 version R/M/E weapons. I'm having a lengthy time obtaining my first 99 empy still.



Will definitely just be for 99 weapons.

[Horadrim]

Will definitely just be for 99 weapons.

As well it should be.

Requesting adjustments to anything less is a bit ridiculous. Yeah, they are rough and time consuming, but that's the point.

[Zumi]

So basically they have an outline of something they can do to boost the power of r/m/e but don't know if they have the man power to actually do it?

[Elexia]

So basically they have an outline of something they can do to boost the power of r/m/e but don't know if they have the man power to actually do it?

Yep. Everything for ARR.

[Zagen]

So basically they have an outline of something they can do to boost the power of r/m/e but don't know if they have the man power to actually do it?
Pretty much which also eludes to the idea that it will be an involved process and not a damage change or "collect X number of Y items" type of quest. They've definitely piqued my interest.

[Kojo]

I kinda hope it's a straight DMG upgrade, augments on R/M/E looks kinda untidy.

[Helel]

Why not just increase the base damage, like now...? You already made skirmish weapons stupidly easy to get. I was sure these adjustments would come on Monday. Major failure if they don't.

[Taint2]

Why not just increase the base damage, like now...? You already made skirmish weapons stupidly easy to get. I was sure these adjustments would come on Monday. Major failure if they don't.


They already said it won't happen right away. The idea is in place but they are no where near ready to implement.

[Zumi]

Yep. Everything for ARR.

Yea most of the team what was doing XI moved on to XIV. I been playing XIV as well because there isn't enough content in XI too keep me busy. Willing to give XIV a chance whenever they release ARR.

[Kojo]

Why not just increase the base damage, like now...? You already made skirmish weapons stupidly easy to get. I was sure these adjustments would come on Monday. Major failure if they don't.

Remember all the Relic owners complaining about Emps at the lv 90 cap? Look what happened, the 90-95 trial is horrible. with enough complaints, R/M/E will be raised above Skirmish weapons.

[Lotto]

So you had the time to think about releasing over powered weapons that are easy to obtain and you even enhanced one after 1 update (H2H went from 59 to +74 DMG) but you don't have the time to think about enhancing the R/E/Ms? Don't you just realize that the problem is how trouble it is right now for R/E/Ms holders rights now?
When I read how vague your explanations are, it seems that system won't even be ready before a while but meanwhile some people can get a better weapon in 2hrs than a R/E/Ms 99 which may take months to finish.

[Horadrim]

Yea most of the team what was doing XI moved on to XIV. I been playing XIV as well because there isn't enough content in XI too keep me busy. Willing to give XIV a chance whenever they release ARR.

I'm going to give it at least a year after release ... I gave FFXI way more than that.

Currently, though, I'm trying to teach myself to enjoy Guild Wars 2 so I can save myself from SE forever...


So you had the time to think about releasing over powered weapons that are easy to obtain and you even enhanced one after 1 update (H2H went from 59 to +74 DMG) but you don't have the time to think about enhancing the R/E/Ms? Don't you just realize that the problem is how trouble it is right now for R/E/Ms holders rights now?
When I read how vague your explanations are, it seems that system won't even be ready before a while but meanwhile some people can get a better weapon in 2hrs than a R/E/Ms 99 which may take months to finish.

Not sure why this has to be explained, but SE puts of all of their consideration for End Game weapons until it is time for the new End Game content to roll out. Delve and Skirmish aren't end game -- as is evident by them constantly referencing "top players" as a separate entity whenever they talk about content.

RME weapons have been on their mind from the beginning -- they've been thinking about and working on how to include them, but they still have the priority of giving content to people who aren't focused entirely on keeping their RME's on the top of the food chain -- that, actually, is their real priority.

Just because the system isn't done doesn't mean they just randomly came up with it a day ago and decided to update people. It is likely part of a more intricate End Game system they plan on rolling out in a later update and they neglected to mention it previously purely because of how far out it is. It wouldn't be the first time they forgot to bring something up specifically as a result of how long it will be before they plan on releasing it.

[Kojo]

So you had the time to think about releasing over powered weapons that are easy to obtain and you even enhanced one after 1 update (H2H went from 59 to +74 DMG) but you don't have the time to think about enhancing the R/E/Ms? Don't you just realize that the problem is how trouble it is right now for R/E/Ms holders rights now?
When I read how vague your explanations are, it seems that system won't even be ready before a while but meanwhile some people can get a better weapon in 2hrs than a R/E/Ms 99 which may take months to finish.

The H2H wasn't the only one raised.

[detlef]

I don't think any RME 99 holder is concerned about tackling Delve with the current weaponry. All planned content that is balanced around Naakual and Skirmish level gear will of course be doable with RME weapons. Speaking for myself, what I was looking for was the assurance that this was not the end of the line and that SE would not be changing gears and phasing in superior and easily-acquired weapons.

And Matsui has spoken.

[Kojo]

I need to bring up, I forget who said it, but someone on these forums said awhile back that "Relic owners just have to face the fact that they can't have the highest damage weapons anymore." I want to thank you, whoever you are, I often think of that post, and I laugh. I laugh as hard as a little boy who's just farted in church, sometimes at inappropriate times, like when I'm in line at the bank, or at a funeral. All thanks to you. Thank you, random Forum-goer, thank you.

[Zumi]

I need to bring up, I forget who said it, but someone on these forums said awhile back that "Relic owners just have to face the fact that they can't have the highest damage weapons anymore." I want to thank you, whoever you are, I often think of that post, and I laugh. I laugh as hard as a little boy who's just farted in church, sometimes at inappropriate times, like when I'm in line at the bank, or at a funeral. All thanks to you. Thank you, random Forum-goer, thank you.

You see there is no reason to piss off the a large portion of your most loyal player base who spent upwards of 100m+ getting these weapons to 99. When they can do a easy event and get something better that might took 2 hours of farming an item and 30 min of doing an event.

People that have relics invested so much time in them and to have it be outdone by something that takes 30 min to get just doesn't sit right.

[Kojo]

You see there is no reason to piss off the a large portion of your most loyal player base who spent upwards of 100m+ getting these weapons to 99. When they can do a easy event and get something better that might took 2 hours of farming an item and 30 min of doing an event.

People that have relics invested so much time in them and to have it be outdone by something that takes 30 min to get just doesn't sit right.

I'm glad they aren't ending Relics with SoA. I'm not sure if you're explaining to me upon misunderstanding or just saying, but yeah, I agree with you and found the aforementioned post laughable.

EDIT: I found it, actually in this thread!


no soner or later people with relics need to realis they cant always have the best weapon in the game

[Luvbunny]

Yep. Everything for ARR.

Indeed, you can see it through all the "efforts" and contents that have been put out lately. Let's not kid ourselves. Between adjusting SoA with its myriad of problems - and trying to stave off any progress so that people cannot consume contents too fast, you will be lucky if they get a time to adjust existing older contents. If you are optimistic, just pretend SoA never happened and wait for them to further tweak and adjusting everything while doing the generic quests for bayld. Keep focusing on Voidwatch, Neo events, and Abyssea - and hope that ARR will be off to a good start so that some funds can be allocated for FFXI. Give it a year or two.

If you are impatient - just cancel your subs, save your money, go play other games :) maybe try ARR when it comes out. Eventually they will adjust SoA and let everyone try it, right now they are just teasing us with the new contents, dangling the carrots but never really let the majority of the players get a taste of it. Only the most dedicated, the fat cats, and the one who obsessively grinds may have a first dip. The 95% can just go do other things.... or whack da roots, again and again.

[Doombringer]

SIDEBAR: what exactly is OFFENSIVE about "don't throw out your relics/emps/mythics"? like, why did that require an apology?

i'm sure we're all eager to see how R/E/Ms play out down the road, but... come on? i almost feel bad for the guy.

[Luvbunny]

He probably apologize in advance now, because the newly improved R/E/M may required you have the base weapon at lvl 99 - and the way to augment it and make it better may be even more grueling tasks than all the previous ones combined. So that even a lower percentage of players can even dream to reach this status, hence you are not "skillful" if you can't even get the lvl 99 so don't even bother trying to upgrade, apologizing now before the wrath of players raining down on him. And believe me, it's going to pour once announcement is being made. Take it easy for now though, they probably not going to announce anything at the very least by end of the year if you are reading between the lines. Or possibly early next year.

[Lukielucas]

But here lies my question regarding the 99 RME weapon...

do we have to complete the afterglow trial in order to boost the stat even further? that would put me off big style!

[Nebo]

I'm really getting sick of seeing responses that speak to the lack of resources. Adjustments and fixes that should not take years......are taking years to be realized or never getting done at all.

What do you think we are paying you for each month?

lol, I swear to God, SE has got to be the worst business I've ever seen that operates on this scale.

Perhaps you should hire maybe one or two people that know what the f*ck they are doing?

[Areayea]

Indeed, you can see it through all the "efforts" and contents that have been put out lately. Let's not kid ourselves. Between adjusting SoA with its myriad of problems - and trying to stave off any progress so that people cannot consume contents too fast, you will be lucky if they get a time to adjust existing older contents. If you are optimistic, just pretend SoA never happened and wait for them to further tweak and adjusting everything while doing the generic quests for bayld. Keep focusing on Voidwatch, Neo events, and Abyssea - and hope that ARR will be off to a good start so that some funds can be allocated for FFXI. Give it a year or two.

If you are impatient - just cancel your subs, save your money, go play other games :) maybe try ARR when it comes out. Eventually they will adjust SoA and let everyone try it, right now they are just teasing us with the new contents, dangling the carrots but never really let the majority of the players get a taste of it. Only the most dedicated, the fat cats, and the one who obsessively grinds may have a first dip. The 95% can just go do other things.... or whack da roots, again and again.

you know despite normally you and I don't see eye to eye, that is the best conveyance of your opinion I've seen O.O, anyway you are right, I do believe that they're trying to fix the "OMG YOU SEE 50 PPL WITH 30 RELICS IN PJ EVERYDAY" perhaps they are going to require afterglow, and then have a +1 to whatever crazy super mega ulta boss that is in place, either way his statement was confusing, I am glad that he said don't throw out your REMs yet... because I"m sure a lot of people have thought about doing just that... and as for the low manpower... FFXI TEAM PLEASE GET SOME COURAGE AND YELL AT THE SE BOARD OF DIRECTORS THAT THIS IS THEIR PRIMARY PROFIT, SO YOU NEED MORE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the end for now.

[Horadrim]

I'm really getting sick of seeing responses that speak to the lack of resources. Adjustments and fixes that should not take years......are taking years to be realized or never getting done at all.

What do you think we are paying you for each month?

lol, I swear to God, SE has got to be the worst business I've ever seen that operates on this scale.

Perhaps you should hire maybe one or two people that know what the f*ck they are doing?

Uhm...

They kind of ARE having a hard fucking time right now... (http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/03/26/square-enix-ceo-wada-resigns-over-extraordinary-losses-in-financials/)

You can -pretend- they have some hidden share of funds to use to hire an entirely new staff to work on FFXI, but they don't. Much of the active team has been moved to FFXIV:ARR, which is a lot more of a priority than you seem to care to admit to yourself...

At the end of the day, their lack of resources both in terms of finances and manpower, is a reality.

[Areayea]

I was just thinking as I made lunch... and if manpower is the problem, why don't they just charge everyone JUST 1 Dollar extra on their sub. and pay for a couple new devs that way, I wouldn't mind paying 13.99 or w/e instead of 12.99, I don't even remember how much the sub costs I just assume 15 and pay it that way... but either way, I'm sure nobody would have a problem paying 1 extra dollar to make this game better... and implement the things you have promised us. thank you matsui, I know you all have been trying really hard. it's just we try really hard to get some of these things that take us weeks/months/years to obtain(Empys/Relics/Mythics); so thank you and hope you look at my advice a little ^^

[Nebo]

Uhm...

They kind of ARE having a hard fucking time right now... (http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/03/26/square-enix-ceo-wada-resigns-over-extraordinary-losses-in-financials/)

You can -pretend- they have some hidden share of funds to use to hire an entirely new staff to work on FFXI, but they don't. Much of the active team has been moved to FFXIV:ARR, which is a lot more of a priority than you seem to care to admit to yourself...

At the end of the day, their lack of resources both in terms of finances and manpower, is a reality.

I'm well aware that it is a realty.

The point is, that reality is a direct result of poor decision making. And they are very clearly allocating resources from our monthly subscriptions to other areas while FFXI starves. How long do you think that is going to continue to fly?

[Karbuncle]

SIDEBAR: what exactly is OFFENSIVE about "don't throw out your relics/emps/mythics"? like, why did that require an apology?

i'm sure we're all eager to see how R/E/Ms play out down the road, but... come on? i almost feel bad for the guy.

Probably because of the vagueness of the statement. In the NA and JP post (Though the NA Post was worded differently), It basically sounded like "Your weapons won't be too useless now", I think he didn't mean to come off so vague that it made people worry or panic, which is what a lot of folks did, apparently on the JP Side too.

He's just saying now, a bit more clear and concisely. Despite what others might say, It was unclear in the beginning and sounded more like "you'll get a consolation prize".

[Horadrim]

I'm well aware that it is a realty.

The point is, that reality is a direct result of poor decision making.

That's a pretty short-sighted claim. Hitman: Absolution, Sleeping Dogs, and Tomb Raider all got rave reviews -- to say all of the money they lost was because of bad decision makings is a gross exaggeration.

Not to say they didn't make their fair share of bad decisions and choices with game releases last year, but they did release some solid titles as well. They just also lost money like most other companies did last year and they are feeling it as a result of their design mentalities not meshing well with the evolution of the gaming community. That's a problem all of the Japanese developers are struggling with. (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-16-kojima-japanese-developers-lack-global-outlook-technological-skills) A year after Kojima's rant about it, we're actually seeing the fruit of his prediction in a lot of companies -- even some western ones.



He's just saying now, a bit more clear and concisely. Despite what others might say, It was unclear in the beginning and sounded more like "you'll get a consolation prize".

That's what I gathered, but I always assumed Skirmish weapons would be the consolation prize, much like the VW ones are.

[Areayea]

Hello everyone!

Below is a follow-up from Producer Matsui in regards to questions about how relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons will be handled moving forward after Seekers of Adoulin.

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui
Hello,

Matsui here.

We've been receiving some questions in regards to what we will be doing with relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons moving forward, so I would like to address what I can at the moment.

We are not planning to enhance relic, mythic, or empyrean weapons via Trial of the Magians or through other methods.

However, in regards to these weapons that you have enhanced up to level 99, we are formulating plans so that they do not go to waste. (Including the weapons that do not yet have their afterglows.)

In regards to the shields and instruments, even in light of the growth that will take place for characters with Adoulin equipment, these in particular are still at the highest caliber and will not be addressed in the plans mentioned above.

While I'm unable to talk about the specifics at this point in time, as soon as the time comes where I can, I will be sure to let you all know.

and actually rereading it, I think what he meant was they aren't going to add any more trials.

Regarding 99, it appears that it will not matter if you have afterglow or not, as long as you grinded it to lvl 99, they may just solely make adjustments on those wepons

[Zumi]

What do you think we are paying you for each month?



Probably this
http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/teaser/images/en/default/contents/keyVisual_arr.png?_v=8r9http://

[Kojo]

and actually rereading it, I think what he meant was they aren't going to add any more trials.

Regarding 99, it appears that it will not matter if you have afterglow or not, as long as you grinded it to lvl 99, they may just solely make adjustments on those wepons

The way it's worded sounds like they are planning to add new gear than "With X Relic equipped: DMG+Y amount" or something, which sounds like a turrible idea, jes turrible.

[Vitus]

The point is, that reality is a direct result of poor decision making.

Fact!
http://xmedia.ex.ac.uk/wp/wordpress/?p=9159

[Luvbunny]

I'm well aware that it is a realty. The point is, that reality is a direct result of poor decision making. And they are very clearly allocating resources from our monthly subscriptions to other areas while FFXI starves. How long do you think that is going to continue to fly?

LOL it has been over two years so far that all of our funds are allocated to support FF14. ARR looks to be in a good shape, the new directors really taking account on every little things that made FF so special and give you enough easter eggs everywhere in the game - a lot of FF lore made cameos - yes even that magitek armor, battle chocobo from FF12, Terra's song, etc... Supposedly the new UI design is praised to be very intuitive. They managed to get inspiration from modern MMO like Guild Wars and World of Warcraft. It's very very beginner's friendly.

Vague statements however is very common coming from FFXI developers. They don't want to get into specifics because they know they don't have enough manpower's to get a lot of things done. Everything is not properly tested. Seems like they just throw a bunch of stuffs with "gated walls" mechanics to make sure that "new contents" are being made but players will have a very slow crawl-like progress so that only 3-5% can even try. They cannot top Abyssea, even they don't understand what makes Abyssea so good other than it seems everyone is able to consume it (and still to this day, consuming it and won't let go...).

I think they did great with Meeble and Voidwatch, with a few kinks but overall content is very accessible, progress is being made slowly but surely and rewards are plentiful (of logs and the other misc scraps). But they seems to stray from being able to store tags (indefinitely like Abyssea and Voidwatch, to 15 total or more like Meeble and Coalitions quests) - now you are forced to collect various things that dropped from "vague information".... SoA is basically WoTG part two, even worse than part one, it will be a sloooooooow progress and very slow updates, probably 3 years before you see conclusion on the storyline. Don't worry, take a long break, enjoy your summer outdoor, and move on. Come back when you see there are enough contents worthy of your money.

[Areayea]

well I think that's the issue... I think that they just need more spending money, they're putting their eggs in one basket again, like they didn't learn from last time... if FFXIV FAILS again... the same thing is going to happen all of a sudden XI is going to get a considerable size of resources to try to bring people back again (that's why abyssea got done so quickly; FFXIV failed, and they needed to hook players back to XI). If not, who the hell knows what's going to happen, maybe it'll get to a point where FFXIV subs pay for XI updates, so we'll def see what happens once XIV is released...

[Nebo]

That's a pretty short-sighted claim. Hitman: Absolution, Sleeping Dogs, and Tomb Raider all got rave reviews -- to say all of the money they lost was because of bad decision makings is a gross exaggeration.

Getting rave reviews for games that are performing poorly (losing money) is precisely the argument for poor decision making.

[MarkovChain]

The skirmish weapons are a pain in the ass to get. If you solo farm your part it can take probably more than 50 hours to be able to enter, and then you have like 10%-20% chance to get the weapon you want. In order to get a +1 stone you need to do several runs. Basically with ~50 millions you can get a blank weapon, whose stats suck, and with another 50M you can +1 it and obtain a wpn > to a relic or empy. Granted the money is split between members, but I doubt you'll find ppl willing to share this money everythime you want.

My group wants ninzas because we use monks as DD, and out of 15 cirdas runs we have only seen 2, while we need 4. With an average of 12M per run on quetz, that's 180M ! So yeah... that's still 30M per person in the party, and in order for everyone in the group to get one that's 60M per person. +2 stones are reported to be extremely rare (4 different ppl got one out of 15 runs). Then the augments on +2 stones are fairly random, so if you want a good skirmish weapon you'll need 3 or 4 +2 stones, so maybe 60 runs at 15M per run ... 900M ! yeah the price tag is much more important than relics or mythics, so honestly, noone should really complain about the skirmish weapons blowing out relics empy or mythics.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

And they are very clearly allocating resources from our monthly subscriptions to other areas while FFXI starves.

Chicken and egg problem: is FFXI foundering because it is underfunded, or is it underfunded because it is foundering?

While Adoulin just got released and XIV is making headway, they just recently finished porting Dragon Quest X for the Wii U, Age of Conan is still going (just released on Steam in February) and S-E is even running Fantasy Earth Zero directly still for the Chinese market. XI and XIV aren't their only MMO titles, and the balance of resources between the two is not a zero-sum game.

Old game is old.

[Matayo]

I really do hope they look at all the factors when it comes to giving the 99's a bonus. I favor the Emps I have upgraded mine to 99 and it was costly just to upgrade it to Lv 95. But I was thinking of the ways they could buff the 99's rather it be every weapon gets something different, all weapons get the same bonus, or will it be different based on type of 99. Well whatever they do Emps better get a hell of an adjustment. The reason I say this is from lvl 90-99 the weapon gets nothing and on top of that the attributes don’t even keep the same increment increase.

Ok quick example take the Mythic, Relic, Emp Great Katana Upgraded from 90-99

Mythic: Lv 95 gets +9 dmg base, same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, upgrade aftermath to OAT 2-3 and its said that it goes into weapon skills, and weapon skill dmg +15%>>> Lv 99 +8 damage base, same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, +15% weapon skill dmg……..

Relic: Lv 95 gets +9 dmg base, same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, weapon skill dmg +25%>>>Lv 99 +8 dmg base , same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, +15% weapon skill dmg….

Emp: lv 95 gets +9 dmg base, +2 Str >>> Lv 99 +9 dmg base, +3 str. (WTF It gets no special additional bonus at all give it OD double or triple dmg weapon skill dmg and etc. C’mon!)

[Triffle]

I thought that these new weapons would completely make certain relics/mythics/empyreans worthless. I just recently got the katana from skirmish and found that this is not the case. To get some of those perfect augments that people have shown possible (like the 170 base damage, 12 strength and 10% weaponskill damage on the greatsword) is pure freaking luck.

First you actually need to get the base weapon to drop which isn't too bad but then welcome back to synergy based luck on augments. Unless you feel like spending millions on high tier parts, you won't get anything too good. My group spent 2.2m each for T2 Head, Body and Feet for one run. I was the only one who got a +1 stone and +2 ones are rare as hell unless you do the high tier parts.

Sure it's possible to buy the stones with currency from skirmish, but it takes around 9.8k of the obsidian fragments for a +2 ghastly stone. I got around 300 fragments from the one run. You do the math. If you think getting perfect augments on an Armada Hauberk or Valkyrie Body is costly, have fun with these weapons.

Just as an example of possible augments. For a +1 stone on my Katana I got +14 damage and 3 dexterity.

[Luvbunny]

LMAO, thanks for the information and clarification. I am so glad we finally able to uncover their ridiculous scheme on halting our progression. If people hate the RNG random of Voidwatch, which can take 100-300 or more to get one of those armors... then they surely will love this new way of "augmenting" your gears.

It would be a different case if you can just do skirmish every 24 hours or even 72 hours and hope you get lucky without having to deal with all the stupid parts just to even try one. But noooooo, we are looking at a very looooooong climb. These new contents are designed to hold us off for a good year minimum, or even longer. Forget about updates to make it easier... you are in it for the long haul.

[Areayea]

I really do hope they look at all the factors when it comes to giving the 99's a bonus. I favor the Emps I have upgraded mine to 99 and it was costly just to upgrade it to Lv 95. But I was thinking of the ways they could buff the 99's rather it be every weapon gets something different, all weapons get the same bonus, or will it be different based on type of 99. Well whatever they do Emps better get a hell of an adjustment. The reason I say this is from lvl 90-99 the weapon gets nothing and on top of that the attributes don’t even keep the same increment increase.

Ok quick example take the Mythic, Relic, Emp Great Katana Upgraded from 90-99

Mythic: Lv 95 gets +9 dmg base, same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, upgrade aftermath to OAT 2-3 and its said that it goes into weapon skills, and weapon skill dmg +15%>>> Lv 99 +8 damage base, same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, +15% weapon skill dmg……..

Relic: Lv 95 gets +9 dmg base, same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, weapon skill dmg +25%>>>Lv 99 +8 dmg base , same Increment increase on weapon state/enhancement, +15% weapon skill dmg….

Emp: lv 95 gets +9 dmg base, +2 Str >>> Lv 99 +9 dmg base, +3 str. (WTF It gets no special additional bonus at all give it OD double or triple dmg weapon skill dmg and etc. C’mon!)

just a couple of things on this...


First let me explain why people get each one, Mythic: Mythics are ONLY made for the JSE special augments, which some of the skirmish weapons blow out of the water... so, they need to readjust the job enhancements, and on a couple of jobs they should completely redo some of the augments for mythic weapons;

Relic: Relics of course are made because of their very advantageous fSTR values so they will do consistent good damage because of the +attack, and the other various special effects from the weaponskills, for this one, they just need to add more base damage IMO, increase the damage, you increase the ws anyway, they didn't take away the damage from the ws, which is why they are still somewhat useful even with the skirmish weapons, however they need to have damage upgraded to at least match the skirmish weapons (I'd hope for them to surpass, but only SE has the answer)

Empyrean:THESE ARE BUILT FOR THE STATS AND THE WS (Only real exception I can think of is Masamune since that is made for Tachi: Shoha which has the same stat Modifiers as Tachi: Fudo), it's just cold hard weaponskill damage, usually in the form of crits, or MAB, so + to damage would be great, but they already do sort of self sooth when it comes to aftermaths and stuff, now the best way to make sure these still surpass the skirmish IMO would be they increased the damage, and added stats such as Crit hit +5% or MAB on the magic based ones...

all in summary the best thing that the outline could include would be to A) Give more/better Job specific augments on Mythics (and probably damage since it's embarrasing something that has taken people years to get at least be able to do the same kind of damage as the other 2/skirmish weapons) B) Increase Damage/ws damage on relics to continue to make them more potent; ANDDDDDDDD C) Increase critical hit rate on empys and damage; and maybe even an OAT (althrough the double damage does help... having that proc with double or triple attack or somethign would be awesome lol) would be nice.

[MarkovChain]

I was the only one who got a +1 stone and +2 ones are rare as hell unless you do the high tier parts.


Actually it is not the case, at least far from 100%. I personnally did 2 runs with head III, body III, feet I and we got a signle f**ing +1 stone between all chars. I think the higher tiers just give more chance at ores/ingots/spells. Alos it's worth noting that there is a chest level up system in the zone.

[Lotto]

It's quite ironic, for years they nerfed jobs/weapon skills or job abilities as fast as they could for the almighty "balance" and now that the players are asking for some balance with R/E/Ms and Naakual weapons they're planning to take their time.

[Monchat]

I thought that these new weapons would completely make certain relics/mythics/empyreans worthless. I just recently got the katana from skirmish and found that this is not the case. To get some of those perfect augments that people have shown possible (like the 170 base damage, 12 strength and 10% weaponskill damage on the greatsword) is pure freaking luck.


this augment system is not that random. Its well thought I think, but they should reduce the variance on ghasty stones +2 augments because that's a freaking rare drop.

The NQ stone augments are garbage sure, but again, ghasty stones can be bought for almost nothing at an NPC in inventor's coalitions.

The Ghasty stones +1 augments are really good on some weapons ( at least club, dagger, H2H,SMN staff, and many more). the maximum augments with +1 stone is quite superior to the minimum augments on +2 stones. Examples:

hand-to-hand: ninzas+0 is DMG +38; ninzas+1 is DMG 38+9~27, ninzas +2 is DMG 38+21~33.

dagger: lesinolu+0 is DMG 52; lesinolu+1 is DMG 52+4~10, lesinolu +2 is DMG 52+8~14.


Now about the Wildskiper reive weapons. Those are not that easy to get. you get at least 1 drop from the reive, more if you do well in the fight, but it's 1 rare/ex drop out of 5-6, so it could take a very long time to get what you want. Also you cannot spam them as it's a server wide event, requires some organisation and takes 1~2hours to complete with ~50% colonization rate. It's basically the besiege of Adoulin, and if you hated besieged like me...

[Triffle]

Actually it is not the case, at least far from 100%. I personnally did 2 runs with head III, body III, feet I and we got a signle f**ing +1 stone between all chars. I think the higher tiers just give more chance at ores/ingots/spells. Alos it's worth noting that there is a chest level up system in the zone.

It is the case. Each part influences a different aspect of the run. Head influences quality of drops, such as what kind of stones you get. Body influences how many objectives you have, how much time you have and how many drops you will get. Legs influence the number of buff points there are what what buffs you will get. If you want a better crack at +2 stones, I'm going to guess you need tier 4 or higher heads.

[Elphy]

(that's why abyssea got done so quickly; FFXIV failed, and they needed to hook players back to XI)

Abyssea actually already made its debut and follow ups, with the exception of heroes, were rolling out prior to ffxiv v1 going live sept 30 2010 and even heroes was already slated for a quick release so abyssea was by no means a fix it.

I still believe that the removal of level restrictions, the ease of leveling and getting top of the line gear was to rush the playerbase through and move them quickly to xiv and after its failure they had to slap together tons of time syncs (ie 1500 plates from a slapped together content like vw, 3060 cinders, + rediculous relic/mythic upgrades) to counterbalance what they had done and keep subs rolling in as long as possible.

Now with ARR on the horizon they are admitting they are short handed in ffxi and making vague promises about something that may or may not happen in the distant future and again creating even better weapons/armor aquired with even less effort. The list of things to do in ffxi is quickly dwindling for a large amount of people since so much content can be breezed through and low manned quite easily or rendered worthless and if the new lolcontent is only meant for the top of the top players they are alienating most of their audience just in time to usher them to Eorzea again.

I'm not dogging on arr by any means, almost every report I have read on mmo and gaming sites have given glowing reviews of its progress so far so I am hopeful for the future, but tbh just not that of vana'diel. I can guarantee my sub will likely go to either arr or eso this year unless they fix this game fast. And since that seems unlikely until I get a new toy I will keep playing with my broken one, but by no means do I take it seriously anymore.

[Monchat]

you guys need to stop this ff14 argument, it's been used for 3 years. If people dont like 11 they will just unsub, not go to 14. 3 years after , XIV 1.xx was still bad. The 2.0 version is still not released and they stoped all form of communication since christmas. Anything points out to it being yet another american mmo clone. 3years to make a wow clone? k nothnx. Just give up.

[Areayea]

you guys need to stop this ff14 argument, it's been used for 3 years. If people dont like 11 they will just unsub, not go to 14. 3 years after , XIV 1.xx was still bad. The 2.0 version is still not released and they stoped all form of communication since christmas. Anything points out to it being yet another american mmo clone. 3years to make a wow clone? k nothnx. Just give up.

Thank you!!!! anyway, I still say they should just raise XI's sub by a dollar to hire another couple of devs.

[MarkovChain]

It is the case. Each part influences a different aspect of the run. Head influences quality of drops, such as what kind of stones you get. Body influences how many objectives you have, how much time you have and how many drops you will get. Legs influence the number of buff points there are what what buffs you will get. If you want a better crack at +2 stones, I'm going to guess you need tier 4 or higher heads.

No it is not the case. I have done a total of around 5 runs that are either tier II or III and like 15 runs with tier I head. I have seen one instance with a +2 stone with visage I and one with visage II. I saw zero stone +2 on tier III head runs. "quality of reward" may not be what you think it is. It is possibly more chace at +1 stones and +2 stones. However just check my experiences above. Higher tier head are definitely not worth the price tag. People don't even know for sure what they do. I see plenty of random claims saying it increases the number of +2 stones but no it's not the case or if it is, it is impossible to notice it really.

Like I said there is a chest level system, and this is what will bring +2 stones I believe because that's how we got one with a tier I head. We had our chest level up to [rank : *] and someone obtained a +2 stone. However in another instance we had a level up to [rank : **] and didn't get anything special.

[Demon6324236]

15 1s? 5 2s and 3s? Thats your sample size for your basis on the fact it does not have higher drop rates? That seems way to small... I can go 1/1000 on a Bullet from Akvan but it doesn't mean its a .1% drop rate, it means I was unlucky, in my opinion, there is a good chance you are unlucky, when large sizes are recorded then we can have a more definite answer on it all.

[Monchat]

15 times 6 chests each of which have at least 3 slots, that can drop a +2: around 300 slots and total 3-4 +2 stones.

[Triffle]

No it is not the case. I have done a total of around 5 runs that are either tier II or III and like 15 runs with tier I head. I have seen one instance with a +2 stone with visage I and one with visage II. I saw zero stone +2 on tier III head runs. "quality of reward" may not be what you think it is. It is possibly more chace at +1 stones and +2 stones. However just check my experiences above. Higher tier head are definitely not worth the price tag. People don't even know for sure what they do. I see plenty of random claims saying it increases the number of +2 stones but no it's not the case or if it is, it is impossible to notice it really.

Like I said there is a chest level system, and this is what will bring +2 stones I believe because that's how we got one with a tier I head. We had our chest level up to [rank : *] and someone obtained a +2 stone. However in another instance we had a level up to [rank : **] and didn't get anything special.

Feel free to argue with the good people on BG wiki.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Am i reading this right? The skirmish weapons have afterglow, is that correct, or did that poster edit the picture? Because if that's true, that's . . . that's . . . really fucked up. Afterglow is for people who went to 99-2, and ONLY they should get it since SE straight up trolled the shit out of them for them to make it. I don't know how much more I can take of this BS, I notice my relationship with SE has really been beat up the past few years with the lack of attention to detail, like the 76-95 cap quests (horrible, 1 guy came up with the whole thing on his lunch break) and the missing utesumi icon for 5 shadows, the mobs on top of each other in dynamis jueno, there's one other thing I can't let go but it's not in the fore front of my memory atm. But yeah, stuff like that, is why I bitch.

[Zagen]

am i reading this right? the skirmish weapons have afterglow is that correct? That's . . . really fucked up.
Photoshoped signature...

[Concerned4FFxi]

Thank altana! I was boiling over.

[MarkovChain]

Feel free to argue with the good people on BG wiki.

All the BG info comes from my group or JP wiki pretty much >_>. The info that higher tier heads give more quality comes from SE's update thread description on skirmish and has been disproved by many higher tiers report on BG and here. Mdk and 1 or 2 other posters are the only players good enough to do skirmish that post on BG. The others are just busy building allakatard-like theories on pyres.

[Elphy]

you guys need to stop this ff14 argument, it's been used for 3 years. If people dont like 11 they will just unsub, not go to 14. 3 years after , XIV 1.xx was still bad. The 2.0 version is still not released and they stoped all form of communication since christmas. Anything points out to it being yet another american mmo clone. 3years to make a wow clone? k nothnx. Just give up.

Wow your really outta the loop. Need to read up on your news and reviews

[Luvbunny]

I still believe that the removal of level restrictions, the ease of leveling and getting top of the line gear was to rush the playerbase through and move them quickly to xiv and after its failure they had to slap together tons of time syncs (ie 1500 plates from a slapped together content like vw, 3060 cinders, + rediculous relic/mythic upgrades) to counterbalance what they had done and keep subs rolling in as long as possible. I can guarantee my sub will likely go to either arr or eso this year unless they fix this game fast. And since that seems unlikely until I get a new toy I will keep playing with my broken one, but by no means do I take it seriously anymore.

As it is right now, FFXI has the fastest leveling method that even tops World of Warcraft. You can breeze through it assuming you did all your limit breaks already in a few days, or even one day if you keep on trucking. The good thing is, you don't really need to subscribe every month, just 3-4 months every year whenever a good update is released. Play for 1 month every 3 months or so. Or play for 2 months every 4 months if you choose. We all can see that every new contents are designed to halt progress for at least a good one year before they ease up the gated wall and adjust it so that "almost" everyone can try it. Instead of boiling with rage or trying to come up with creative ideas, which they usually ignore, all of our rants (positive or negative) are never really being taken seriously anyway - we can just ignore the crappy contents, take a few months off, and come back again whenever we see some adjustments. We always come back right?

[Triffle]

As it is right now, FFXI has the fastest leveling method that even tops World of Warcraft. You can breeze through it assuming you did all your limit breaks already in a few days, or even one day if you keep on trucking. The good thing is, you don't really need to subscribe every month, just 3-4 months every year whenever a good update is released. Play for 1 month every 3 months or so. Or play for 2 months every 4 months if you choose. We all can see that every new contents are designed to halt progress for at least a good one year before they ease up the gated wall and adjust it so that "almost" everyone can try it. Instead of boiling with rage or trying to come up with creative ideas, which they usually ignore, all of our rants (positive or negative) are never really being taken seriously anyway - we can just ignore the crappy contents, take a few months off, and come back again whenever we see some adjustments. We always come back right?

If you want fastest leveling method try Guild Wars 2. Everything you do in that game gives you experience for your job level from crafting, to doing quests to PvP. You'll even get experience for standing around if you do it in the right spot.

[Kojo]

Those, uh, Skirmish weapons? Yeah, those are weak now, 108dmg daggers and 247dmg GSs just replaced them.

[Jeph]

Those, uh, Skirmish weapons? Yeah, those are weak now, 108dmg daggers and 247dmg GSs just replaced them.

Its like SE just said: "Okay, Now you guys can go ahead and throw away your weapons."

[Toioiz]

Yeah... so about those R/M/E/S weapons...

[Castoth]

Now we're playing Final Warcraft XI?

[Mizuharu]

So there are weapons in the update with over 200 base damage. Surely those are the R/M/E fixes- ... Oh... Uh, nevermind. (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/April_2013_Version_Update_Changes)

[Byrth]

Pairing the new HQ/NQ dagger offers a 33% DPS increase over the former-best dagger combination for DNC.

[Lotto]

Hey guys, let's release even more powerful weapons without thinking about it but let's take our time to "think about" fixing R/E/Ms.

One of the new H2H : DMG:+146 Delay:+96 Accuracy+35 Attack+25 Guard skill +4 Physical damage taken -3%

My Vere currently have DMG+42, are you serious SE?

[Chrisstreb]

Yeah... XIVs looking better everyday now

[CrystalWeapon]

I can't stop laughing.

[SpankWustler]

The new one-handed axes will be like wielding an Ukonvasra in each hand while on Beastmaster. A level 99 Ukonvasra in the main-hand with a level 90 Ukonvasra in the offhand, to be specific.

I don't know if I'm happy or sad or need to poop or what. I don't know anything anymore.

[Ica]

Yeah... XIVs looking better everyday now

Because it's not run by the same company, so there is no risk of the same shit happening in that game.

[Tamoa]

Dear SE.


For the first time ever you have managed to make me angry to the point where I actually consider quitting. I worked my ass off, 99-ing my Ukonvasara a year ago and I finished my 99 Masamune less than 2 weeks ago. I also did ADL 3 days a week for almost a full YEAR, getting marrows for my ls friends and myself. And as it seems, you just made all that time and effort a complete and utter waste and totally worthless.

You better give us the R/E/M upgrades FAST, and they better be damn good too.

Edit: and yes I know nobody cares if I quit or not, least of all SE, but I'm actually really upset.

[Kojo]

Why do I have a feeling "Adoulin" is some long lost ancient tongue term for a deathblow? It's like they are trying to kill this game. It's not that there are new weapons with pointlessly high base damage, it's 1. How they released weapons that render Relics obsolete, 2. They release weapons that makes THOSE weapons obsolete within a month. and finally 3. They completely screw over the loyal, dedicated players who worked on, and put time, effort, and gil into their Relic by not having an immediate way for these weapons to stay relevant. What Matsui said wasn't offensive to anyone, if he thinks that offended anyone he must thing the Relic-wielding community is so thin-skinned that saying anything to them will make them cry. He knows he didn't simply offend anyone by undermining them, he apologized because he felt remorse.

They add 2 new jobs and encourage us to use them so they can set stats on Job Specific Equipment, but the simple fact is that you can't, they don't have a place yet because they don't have the merits, the JSE buffs, or the equipment draw to contribute to anything more than a Worm party. If the Devs intend to give gear for GEO/RUN based on how they are used, expect alot of "Vs. Worms:" effects.

[Karbuncle]

I've honestly done and lost every single reason I've had to log on. This is just stupid. Like pure stupid. this new Director has pretty much just took the game and Jumped the Shark.

There is no returning from this, What joy can I find in this when by the time I'm able to access the content that drops this stuff, they've already sh*t on it? If i wanted that tired played out MMO Design, I'd bandwagon one of the 800 "WoW Killers" released a week and play it for its 4 day life span.

God 99% of the population hasn't even entered Skirmish and they've already gone and obsoleted the reason for even looking at it... Bah, IDC how hard these weapons are to get, a D:108 Dagger is just, while simultaneously making a few fever induced FF Related dreams oddly possible... is making my head hurt really really bad.

Probably due in part to the DMG:175 Club, meaning at the rate they keep "upgrading" Daggers, WHM will be a better DD next update... I mean, part of me is ever going to keep an eye on FFXI, but, for the time being, f**k all this noise, no interest in playing a GrinderClone, i chose FFXI because of what it was, not because i wanted.. whatever the hell its turning in too.

[Kojo]

Dear SE.


For the first time ever you have managed to make me angry to the point where I actually consider quitting. I worked my ass off, 99-ing my Ukonvasara a year ago and I finished my 99 Masamune less than 2 weeks ago. I also did ADL 3 days a week for almost a full YEAR, getting marrows for my ls friends and myself. And as it seems, you just made all that time and effort a complete and utter waste and totally worthless.

You better give us the R/E/M upgrades FAST, and they better be damn good too.

Edit: and yes I know nobody cares if I quit or not, least of all SE, but I'm actually really upset.

I know that feel. LS mate got his Ragnarok a few days ago, and just yesterday got the 95 version, I've been helping because I wanted to watch it unfold, I wanted to watch the process step by step, but mostly because I consider him a friend, I was happy for him and it was another relic in the LS. I don't own a 99 R/E/M, but I feel I have a place to be pissed along with you guys just because of how this is being done. I don't consider the time, effort, and deaths a waste, my friend got his relic to 95, something he's wanted and worked on, but now he'll be easily outdamaged by the new weapons even at 99. The most fair thing SE could do right now is make these new weapons inaccessible until they add a way to raise the damage of relics.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Yeah... XIVs looking better everyday now

Not if they paid me.... When I am done I am done... Greatest troll ever in gaming listening to the /ragequit and /wrist has me rolling. I will take a wait and see approach myself...

[SpankWustler]

My main concern actually has nothing to do with other weapons being obsoleted.

If the damage on these new weapons is real, pet damage and elemental magic damage and blue magic damage and any other kind of damage not based on a weapon is going to take a relative nosedive. That is just how strong these new weapons are; they march over to take a swing at things not related to weapons in any way after they're done obsoleting other weapons.

[Zumi]

Well 99 R/M/E is dead, AH crafted weapons beat them now, not just beat them totally destroy them. With even bettter ex weapons coming from delve.

Thoughts?

They don't know if they have the man power to make our relies competitive with AH junk?

[Kojo]

Well 99 R/M/E is dead, AH crafted weapons beat them now, not just beat them totally destroy them. With even bettter ex weapons coming from delve.

Thoughts?

They don't know if they have the man power to make our relies competitive with AH junk?

Thoughts? We need a new director to fix this, that's my thought on this.

[Tamoa]

I can only speak for myself - but what I need is for SE to tell me when the R/E/M upgrades are coming (and it better be soon!), and that the upgraded versions will be comparable to these new weapons.

[Kojo]

I just wanted my beloved RUN to have a use, but it's still more of a dirty little secret than my beloved.

[Zumi]

At least now we know why they said don't throw away your old R/M/E.

[Kojo]

At least now we know why they said don't throw away your old R/M/E.

The Apoc I'm working on will make a nice Mog Garden mower, I guess. Anyone got a Mandau I can use? I need a hand-shovel to plant all the weed I'll have to smoke to still play this game.

Also, anyone able to read Japanese? Are the JPs as pissed as the rest of us are?

[Triffle]

It's hilarious how all the skirmish and wildkeeper reive gear is obsolete now...

[HimuraKenshyn]

My main concern actually has nothing to do with other weapons being obsoleted.

If the damage on these new weapons is real, pet damage and elemental magic damage and blue magic damage and any other kind of damage not based on a weapon is going to take a relative nosedive. That is just how strong these new weapons are; they march over to take a swing at things not related to weapons in any way after they're done obsoleting other weapons.

They will have to stat mage stats and buffs the same way to even the playing field. I do see +71 MAB weapons already. The other way is insane pdt on mobs that these weapons just tickle...

[Kitkat]

At least now we know why they said don't throw away your old R/M/E.

Don't throw them away so we can make them totally obsolete, add a new helmet equip called the Gond Tarag, and the graphics of it will be that of the Troll face (or in SE's tactic of reskins it will be the pumpkin head just with a new skin)?

And I came back to the game for this? There is no pic to adequately relay my reaction to all this...there just isn't. It is a mix of "I guess that is cool" "/facepalm" "when you see it...." and the "Double rainbow" song combined together all at once.

[Kojo]

I'd really like to see how the JPs are reacting to this. I'd also like to hear something from Matsui.

I'd ALSO like to hear that Tanaka is coming back.

[Calintzpso]

Dear SE.


For the first time ever you have managed to make me angry to the point where I actually consider quitting. I worked my ass off, 99-ing my Ukonvasara a year ago and I finished my 99 Masamune less than 2 weeks ago. I also did ADL 3 days a week for almost a full YEAR, getting marrows for my ls friends and myself. And as it seems, you just made all that time and effort a complete and utter waste and totally worthless.

You better give us the R/E/M upgrades FAST, and they better be damn good too.

Edit: and yes I know nobody cares if I quit or not, least of all SE, but I'm actually really upset.

I'm with you on this. Blade and Soul is looking mighty sexy(er) right now.

[Zumi]

One more disappointing thing is R/M/E had cool looking models a lot of these new crafted weapons are just the same old reused sinks from old crafted weapons. I have to trade in my Ragnarok and Ukon for something that looks like something out of 2003 FFXI.

[erish]

Dear SE.


For the first time ever you have managed to make me angry to the point where I actually consider quitting. I worked my ass off, 99-ing my Ukonvasara a year ago and I finished my 99 Masamune less than 2 weeks ago. I also did ADL 3 days a week for almost a full YEAR, getting marrows for my ls friends and myself. And as it seems, you just made all that time and effort a complete and utter waste and totally worthless.

You better give us the R/E/M upgrades FAST, and they better be damn good too.

Edit: and yes I know nobody cares if I quit or not, least of all SE, but I'm actually really upset.

Id personally like to echo what this poster is saying, ive worked my arse of for years to get the gear i have on my charater today. Yes im annoyed and yes im angry before anyone starts asking. Id also like to take this chance to personally say sorry to the former boss tanaka, i use to hate everything you did but you know what you made a great game and to see it turn into this is a really sad day.

[Kojo]

One more disappointing thing is R/M/E had cool looking models a lot of these new crafted weapons are just the same old reused sinks from old crafted weapons. I have to trade in my Ragnarok and Ukon for something that looks like something out of 2003 FFXI.

Oh, but atleast it's blue!

[Kojo]

Know who I feel sorry for? The Community Reps. We're all angry and they are the ones who have to be our proxy to talk to the Devs. Hope they aren't posting atm because they are busy getting a 200%+ raise to deal with this shitstorm.

[Castoth]

So I just had another thought. Does this update make BLM completely obsolete now (aside from high PDT mobs)? Considering that was the job I played for over 90% of my FFXI career, the damage well-geared BLMs can do compared to these ridiculous weapons (even the craftable, AHable ones!) is miniscule now. I'm actually pretty angry if my guessing is true whatsoever.

[Draylo]

This update... wowzers.

[Byrth]

So I just had another thought. Does this update make BLM completely obsolete now (aside from high PDT mobs)? Considering that was the job I played for over 90% of my FFXI career, the damage well-geared BLMs can do compared to these ridiculous weapons (even the craftable, AHable ones!) is miniscule now. I'm actually pretty angry if my guessing is true whatsoever.

To be fair, BLM has been pretty obsolete as a damage source for a long time compared to melee. However, yes. If the weapons are easily (or at all) obtainable then BLM will be substantially worse off by comparison. Here's how it plays out:
1) Every Melee job gets about +30~40% DPS
2) BLM gets . . . a staff that's only slightly better than 6 elemental magian staves wrapped into one.

So not only is BLM relatively a worse DD than it was before the patch, but the dedicated ones also get kicked in the nuts because 6 of their ToM staves have been outdated.

[cyric]

I've never intended to make a r/m/e, but this is nuts. GG SE? I'm afraid to log on and see what some of my LS mates might be doing right now o.o.

[Castoth]

To be fair, BLM has been pretty obsolete as a damage source for a long time compared to melee. However, yes. If the weapons are easily (or at all) obtainable then BLM will be substantially worse off by comparison. Here's how it plays out:
1) Every Melee job gets about +30~40% DPS
2) BLM gets . . . a staff that's only slightly better than 6 elemental magian staves wrapped into one.

So not only is BLM relatively a worse DD than it was before the patch, but the dedicated ones also get kicked in the nuts because 6 of their ToM staves have been outdated.

That's what I figured. Not sure I want to keep playing at this point.

[Dragoy]

It will surely be balanced out (or in).

~ducks~

But yeah, if these items are real (or/and their numbers are), if anything, I'm more curious than annoyed. How/when will they be obtained, how and where do they really fit in as they would obviously be quite the change (considering magic and such, some adjustments I think were mentioned to be on the way, but just imagine old content with these things... Odd, I would probably call it), and what exactly do they have planned for the Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons (purrrhaps these are the next final forms... heh, mebbeh not).

Especially the 'limited time event' in “we will similarly be adjusting content in existing areas, though it may take some time and be a limited time event” seems very peculiar to me, but I may digress a little.

Again, if real, I am definitely interested to see how, or rather what will unfold. As I'm not much for speculating, I'll leave it at that, keeping my guesstimates to myself.

For the sake of the good people working on the game, I really do hope they know what they're doing. =]


Changelog:

Add some forgotten thoughts.

[Kojo]

Looks like they've started deleting threads...

[Luvbunny]

LOL, well you can also start deleting them from the list of games you pay and play :)

[Zumi]

Guess they don't want you to talk about people who no longer work at SE maybe.

[Yinnyth]

Id personally like to echo what this poster is saying, ive worked my arse of for years to get the gear i have on my charater today. Yes im annoyed and yes im angry before anyone starts asking. Id also like to take this chance to personally say sorry to the former boss tanaka, i use to hate everything you did but you know what you made a great game and to see it turn into this is a really sad day.http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/7f296df374be6477b5d865b108b35a26.jpg



I'd like to deeply apologize for mentioning "Don’t throw away your relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons" during an interview. Relic, mythic, and empyrean (below R/M/E weapons) take a great deal of time and difficulty to obtain, and this expression was extremely lacking in consideration for all of the players who tried so hard to complete them.

What I wished to convey was that we will be implementing a system to build on R/M/E weapons, so please have them in your possession, and there was no other meaning intended.

In regards to this system, the outline has been finished; however, we have yet to test if what we have planned can be realized and if we can secure the proper amount of manpower to continue it. We are at a point in time right now where it's difficult to explain the details, so please allow us to discuss this another day.

[Kojo]

Doesn't make it any less true. I'm sort of hoping they do an emergency maint to reduce the damage on these weapons to the max or 2-3 points above the max of what you'd get from an augmented Skirmish weapon.

[Shibayama]

So like... nobody is thinking of the possibility that there could be something about these weapons that dosnt make them the end-all-be-all of weapons? Everybody is screaming about how SE fucked up and this and that but cmon, *nobody* thought that a weapon with almost double the damage of literally everything up to this point is the least bit suspect?

I mean, remember this?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Accursed_Belt

For all we know they have a nasty hidden effect on them that is present everywhere else but in Delve or something that makes you have to make a choice between crazy high damage or survival.

Why don't we all simmer the hell down with the whole "Waaah new guy dosn't understand balance bring the other guy back!" thing until we have *actual information* to base this on, not just a picture of the stats on the weapon before unsubscribing?

[Kojo]

So like... nobody is thinking of the possibility that there could be something about these weapons that dosnt make them the end-all-be-all of weapons?

For all we know they have a nasty hidden effect on them that is present everywhere else but in Delve or something that makes you have to make a choice between crazy high damage or survival.

Why don't we all simmer the hell down with the whole "Waaah new guy dosn't understand balance bring the other guy back!" thing until we have *actual information* to base this on, not just a picture of the stats on the weapon.

See, the thing is... We know about these weapons, their damage, stats, and recipes from .dat miners. if they had a hidden effect, we'd know.

[Byrth]

No. The .dats do not show hidden effects. That said, though, I seriously doubt that these weapons have hidden effects. Increasing melee damage by 30% is going to have a much larger impact on balance than the Enmity or pDIF changes of the last patch did.

lol pets . . . <_<;

[Xantavia]

So like... nobody is thinking of the possibility that there could be something about these weapons that dosnt make them the end-all-be-all of weapons?

For all we know they have a nasty hidden effect on them that is present everywhere else but in Delve or something that makes you have to make a choice between crazy high damage or survival.

Why don't we all simmer the hell down with the whole "Waaah new guy dosn't understand balance bring the other guy back!" thing until we have *actual information* to base this on, not just a picture of the stats on the weapon.
That would be a very interesting idea. Say a souleater effect, but without the damage bonus. Cannot gain TP. 50% slow. Cannot be cured. Gives a nasty paralyze. There is a ton of stuff that could be done that might make you really think "Is it worth it"

[Luvbunny]

These new craft-able weapons sure looks hot, I am sure it will cost milions at first till it become common items, give it time and everyone will soon have one :) Definitely not cool for those who spent time and efforts - not to mention millions gills for their R/M/E. And it is also not cool for those who did work on magian trials weapons. Oh well, we can all "nerd rage" and try to rationalize all we want, or you can keep taking whatever SE throws at you. There is always that last option, stop playing, feign ignorance and check back in 4 months or so to see if things are better or even worse for R/M/E. You can't say that the new director is afraid of shaking things up hah hah hah hah.