Can we do away with low spawn chance placeheld NM's?

[Horadrim]

So, I actually enjoy the idea behind the Magian trials -- but one thing I'm finding annoying is this whole placeholder system. I like the idea of placeholders themselves, but why exactly does the spawn rate of the NM's in question have to be so low that it can take HOURS for them to appear?

I realize over the years that has been used as a sort of time sink, but is it really necessary at this point? Especially for low level mobs that don't even drop anything (My character is standing afk in La Thiene right now so I can try and pop Tumbling Truffle. Mind you, before I left for work this morning I was there for almost 2 hours trying to spawn it, even if someone had killed it just before I got there, there's no reason I shouldn't have gotten a spawn.)

Arguably, I can understand the idea of bogging people down as they work on their Empyrean weapons -- but at the same time initial "stand around and wait" is silly when you consider that you have to farm 30~75+ drops from higher level NMs who only drop 0~2 of the respective item. Even though that's tedious, I consider it the proper kind of tedious = Straightforward, active, and decently challenging with a curve that increases as your weapon gains power. It's variable interval reward system (good) vs. straight gambling with your time (bad).

Considering you end up having to farm Abyssea NMs just to break into earliest stage of your EMP Weapon (again, a good thing) I think its high time for a boost to the spawn rate of Placeholder mobs so we can cut straight to the interesting part of the Magian quests.

I don't see why something that already takes 10+ hours (plus travel time) by default should end up taking DAYS due to bad luck with spawns.

I can't be the only one who finds Stage 1~5 (depends on weapon, but for H2H its the first 5 trials) of building Empy's completely asinine.

EDIT:

For those who don't get where that 10 hours come from: ( O = 1 kill)

Trial 68: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 69: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 70: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)

Trial 71: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 72: O ~1.5 hr respawn ~ O ~1.5 hr respawn~ O ~1.5 hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 73: O ~1hr respawn ~ O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)

That's actually 16.5 hours at a minimum, assuming you can spawn the monster as soon as you get to the camp, not including travel time, and there aren't any other variables or mistakes.

[Rwolf]

I have to agree with this and see nothing wrong with it if it is balanced out to equate the same time and effort.

I've never liked the luck approach for the early trials for empyrean weapons. If SE is concerned about the time required to create an empyrean weapon, then the trials can be adjusted to compensate. Increase the spawn chance of lottery/placeholder NMs to be easily after the window is open but increase the amount of times needed to kill the NM. This way you maintain a balance of speed in creation but you give players without a lot of time to play in-game a feasible way to work toward their weapon slowly.

I won't say casual players because it gives a misnomer that time standing around or afking while someone else kills placeholders (which frequently happens) equals skill or dedication. This solution would not ask for it to be easier to obtain as in speed, just easier within time management. If you can spend 2 hours in dynamis farming currency or farming alexandrite in salvage. Why not the ability to spend 2 hours just working on empyrean weapon trials and know that you have solid progress.

In the end the player feels more rewarded through gradual progression than luck.

[Oddwaffle]

Would the idea of having normal mobs drop a rare item that you can trade to the ??? point similar to abyssea NMs be a good idea? This way people can sell their excess items in AH and others can buy them and pop their NMs quickly as a group. If soloing it will be slower but not as much.

[Yinnyth]

I actually preferred these trials to the active ones because they allowed me to do other things in the downtime. Sure, it might take you 10+ hours to finish them, but that's like saying it takes you 1+ hour to bake a cake. Do you sit there staring at the cake the whole time it's baking?

As far as actual time investment goes, these trials are pretty darned low, and they're different from other trials. I like different. If anything, I'd say trials are too similar to one another and there should be more variety, not less.

[Horadrim]

I actually preferred these trials to the active ones because they allowed me to do other things in the downtime. Sure, it might take you 10+ hours to finish them, but that's like saying it takes you 1+ hour to bake a cake. Do you sit there staring at the cake the whole time it's baking?

As far as actual time investment goes, these trials are pretty darned low, and they're different from other trials. I like different. If anything, I'd say trials are too similar to one another and there should be more variety, not less.

My point was I don't mind waiting an hour or hour and a half for the respawn. I don't mind exploring old zones or hunting low levels NMs -- I actually like that they make you see NM's you might have never seen before.

What I don't like is that on top of downtime of waiting for NMs you actually have such a low chance of getting because of the respawn that it can take one who's window opens up after 1 hour up to 8 or 9 to appear. Imagine if your luck is so bad that every respawn takes 5-8 hours for you. It would take months just to make it to the point where you get to actually fight things that represent a challenge.

Again, I don't mind the 16.5 hour minimum to finish my Empy up to the Color Abyssite mob -- what I don't like is that that minimum can easily get magnified. Case-in-point: I tried to get Tumbling Truffle this morning before work (the plan was: One in the morning before work while drinking my coffee, one during my lunch break since I live only a 5 minute drive from work, and one as soon as I get home so I can go to Jeuno, get some stuff done, and set up to do the next trial tomorrow.), but due to his poor drop rate I camped him for 2 hours and got nothing before I had to head out to work.
Mind you, no one had been there farming him before me, so his window should have been open from the get go, and even if it was, I was there long enough to where I should have been able to see him twice.

I proceeded to go home during lunch and after 46 minutes, I literally got the spawn right as I was gearing up to walk out of the door.

I think that's a bit asinine. Technically I'm only finishing 1 trial a day at this rate anyway, it shouldn't be so rare for him to spawn that I miss him over the course of a 2 hour window and a second 45 minute one.

Consider the fact that over the course of 16 hours I could complete a piece of +2 from scratch and you start to realize a stark difference between the work = reward vs. wait = possible reward. I'd rather be actively working on something than standing around. I don't pay 12 dollars a month for FFXI to watch netflix and play my Playstation Vita.


Would the idea of having normal mobs drop a rare item that you can trade to the ??? point similar to abyssea NMs be a good idea? This way people can sell their excess items in AH and others can buy them and pop their NMs quickly as a group. If soloing it will be slower but not as much.

Farming special items you can only get while using your trial weapon would be great, imo -- At least then you can feel the progress you're making even when you're not getting drops. Frankly, I'm dreading the 15 minute respawn placeholders I'm going to be fighting...

[Yinnyth]

My point was I don't mind waiting an hour or hour and a half for the respawn. I don't mind exploring old zones or hunting low levels NMs -- I actually like that they make you see NM's you might have never seen before.

What I don't like is that on top of downtime of waiting for NMs you actually have such a low chance of getting because of the respawn that it can take one who's window opens up after 1 hour up to 8 or 9 to appear. Imagine if your luck is so bad that every respawn takes 5-8 hours for you. It would take months just to make it to the point where you get to actually fight things that represent a challenge.

Yeah, I had a few that took me that long just to get one NM. Bugbear Strongman and Black Triple Stars were a royal pain for me. Heck, even that stupid weapon in horutoto took over 5 hours once. Even being a victim of the worst this system has to offer, I still think it's ok.

Though I'm not really afraid SE would actually change anything about this system. They won't. These trials are designed to waste time, and they do that with flying colors. There's hardly any risk that people will stop doing these trials anytime soon because the reward is just too tantalizing. The amount of time it would take to individually adjust each one of these NMs and/or trials is far too high for something which is doing exactly what it was designed to do.

[Logandor]

I totally agree that the time spawn of the actual nm with place holders need to be revamped. Two of the worst I have come across being Black Triple Stars and Octrap.

[Helyos]

The saying 'time is money' really comes into play when it comes to an endgame weapon. You can either spend your time, ie: sitting on your ass waiting for NMs you can one-shot for an empy, or spend your money, ie: 100mil for a relic/300mil for a relic. You can break that down even further by either farming your currency/alex or buying it straight up.

That being said, SE has to put some sort of time/gil sink on these because they're the best and thats how its always worked. And considering how close in power the empys are to relics, I'd say even with how long pops take, you're still seeing a way easier time than a relic.

[nyheen]

Would the idea of having normal mobs drop a rare item that you can trade to the ??? point similar to abyssea NMs be a good idea? This way people can sell their excess items in AH and others can buy them and pop their NMs quickly as a group. If soloing it will be slower but not as much.
this would be a great idea. or have to change too..
A: all trial NM will be changed to time poped. no more placeholder BS. 1 hour time pop. i dont even mind 3 hours but please drop the whole placeholder stuff.

B: trial NM can also be done in BCNM. example do any ksnm from Lachesis Orb 3 times. Operation Desert Swarm etc
C: get 10,000exp for your weapon in Conquest area for trial xx. pages exp do not count. merit pt anyone? :)

anything but 2-10 hours of spamming placeholder mobs all day. just named few way that take some time to do but it not as boring

[RAIST]

beginning to wonder if the OP was around for the old Empy hairpin hunts....or LL...Argus...<insert absurd Random Number Generator Abuse Story>. Plenty of precedence for how the RNG can flat out screw you over.

Dont' get me wrong, I can sympathize with getting impatient on those trials, and a change would be welcomed by pretty much everyone at this point and likely not receive much if any objection if they announced a change (I've made a total of 35 weapons so far myself). But, seriously, it's not like it's something new and not already documented how the lottery system can work against you. A 1 hour window for PH has never translated into you getting the NM in 2 hours. Look at the VE page...it still says 1-8 hour window. Probably a lot of NM's still showing things like that, because that's how they work--in x minutes/hours/days, PH shows up and offers you a chance to roll the dice to see if the NM will respawn. And yes...I put days because some would take a day or longer to repop.

Not trying to troll or be an @$$, but even if you're in the new generation that didn't go through the camping hell that once was FFXI, there's enough info out there to clue you in on what you were up against when you decided to make the weapon. Not like it isn't laid out on the sites where you can look up all the trial and mob info....that is, if one bothers to research at all these days.

Just be glad you didn't have to compete with half a zone of people after your same PH.....

[vienne]

i've just finished the nm path for h2h myself (tumbling truffle, helldiver, orctrap) and although yes there are more pleasant things to do, its bearable if you combine it with something else (i ironed, cleaned a bit, equal boring stuff) i did find this less frustrating then some of the other trials out there (kill x mobs during x weather or even kill 300 bugards kind of trial) and in the end you're trying to get one of the better weapons out there, its normal you invest time in it.

[NDSI]

Like other NM's trial NM's should be adjusted to a fixed spawn time, like a sure pop after a max of 2 hours, I spend 4+ hours on various NM's to pop and having that a few times in a fow is no fun, sure you can do something else but that is something you do in the time you have killed the NM, and then you return for the next round as PH are 5 min respawn there is not much one can do in a 5 min downtime, not to mention when you are killing for hours, you walk away for a few min to eat, go to the bathroom, or w/e, a random person comes up, kills one PH, the NM pops and you are screwed out of hours that you already had spend in killing.

So yeah... either:
1. have a solid max respawn on the NM so that it spawn garantee,
2. have items introduced to spawn a NM, maybe have it being sold by the magian moogle for 100k each, and/or farmable at the spawn location.

[Umichi]

I read your first post ignored the rest I just want to ask you why you find it necessary to find a nm that you will only need to farm in the short term considering your level of skill need a shorter timed spawn especially since you seem to have a somewhat "accurate" time frame down for how long it takes for an nm to spawn? these aren't catereed exactly to magian trials... SE themselves said they were going to use less used ph nms for trials? the reason? who know's but they were made for the items they drop not for your magian trial... well kinda... don't like it gtfo.... everyone bitches about how tough mythic is and how tough relic is (and despite the fact that it only really requires gil(a lot of it) to build it.... it does take time.) but they still don't understand that these weapons are powerful and desired for a reason.... why does empy weapon have to be any different? your following the system it was built into to get what you desire.

[nyheen]

relic quest atm is fine the way it is. it not as bad now. mythic quest could get a small update but overall is fine. emp at the VNM part + 50/50 item is fine also but the part iam sure most complaining about is the long camping NM that can take up to 10 hours or even more if unlucky and on top of that we got to deal with the placeholders. the abyssea NMs are done right with the time pop. it 2013 we want change! lol throw away that placeholder system! even if it was 1 hour time pop NM could work with the trials o.o

[SNK]

Bugbear Strongman. Longest most suffering pop I ever did for a trial mob. Got the 1st pop pretty quickly. The 2nd one took 23 hours to spawn again. :|

[Horadrim]

beginning to wonder if the OP was around for the old Empy hairpin hunts....or LL...Argus...<insert absurd Random Number Generator Abuse Story>. Plenty of precedence for how the RNG can flat out screw you over.

I've been playing FFXI since 2003. I used greatly enjoy camping mobs and competing to camp them -- there was work and fun in it and often, unless you were camping something below your level, a bit of a challenge.



Dont' get me wrong, I can sympathize with getting impatient on those trials, and a change would be welcomed by pretty much everyone at this point and likely not receive much if any objection if they announced a change (I've made a total of 35 weapons so far myself). But, seriously, it's not like it's something new and not already documented how the lottery system can work against you. A 1 hour window for PH has never translated into you getting the NM in 2 hours. Look at the VE page...it still says 1-8 hour window. Probably a lot of NM's still showing things like that, because that's how they work--in x minutes/hours/days, PH shows up and offers you a chance to roll the dice to see if the NM will respawn. And yes...I put days because some would take a day or longer to repop.

I'm not really impatient. I can find plenty of things to do over the course of 1-2 hours of waiting -- I just think the system is broken and weighed heavily towards wasting your time to give the illusion of work and effort. Its a lazy joke of an objective designed just to keep you playing -- and it sucks.

Random number generation with low odds isn't really something to be defended. As I've expressed -- I understand how it works and that its a chance based system. I don't mind the waiting, I don't mind the chance, I just think its stupid to have dice roll be so unlikely to yield a victory that it multiplies the time.

I knew as soon as I saw the names of old, low level mobs back when the trials first came out what the quests would entail -- my point is that its asinine. It's literally just a time sink scheme they used to make this feel like it takes more effort than it does, and I think its time they tighten up the spawn windows on the mobs. I don't see why that's such a bad suggestion/idea? Why should it take 1-8 hours just for you to have a chance to one shot something that couldn't kill if you AFK'd for the next 6 months?



Not trying to troll or be an @$$, but even if you're in the new generation that didn't go through the camping hell that once was FFXI, there's enough info out there to clue you in on what you were up against when you decided to make the weapon. Not like it isn't laid out on the sites where you can look up all the trial and mob info....that is, if one bothers to research at all these days.

No, you're doing what most people do when someone brings up a nonsensical design flaw in this game: Talk about how much worse it was and how "at least you new school kids don't have to do it the old way." It's the same thing when I talk to other PUPs about problems I have with the job, my favorite job -- apparently taking grievance with legitimate problems in the design means I couldn't possibly have had jobs at level 75 before Abyssea or have tried camping before it was "cool." FYI, I've been playing this game for nearly 10 years and I've had my fair share of all-night camping and 2-5 day ToD tracking binges -- the point is that when we did that stuff there was an actual, immediate chance of reward from the action and, more often or not, a real challenge to be had. At least with Tiamat, for example, you were gearing up for a major challenge -- not just standing around so you could scratch your balls and press enter before doing it all over again. Standing around for hours waiting to 1 shot a level 12 notorious monster has no value -- its just a stupid time sink method SE used to forgo having to come up with a real, viable challenge to start Magian weapons off.

They were so caught up in trying to avoid making it another Relic currency farm fest or Mythic "Do All The Things!!" fun-run that they gave up and tossed a bunch of old, otherwise useless mobs into a list. The problem was, these NM's were quirky and cool at one point, now they are just a waste of time. Like I said, it already takes more than 16 hours to complete the first few trials even if the spawn rate for the NM's isn't incredibly low. I don't even want it to be 100%, I just don't see the point of me having to bust out games of League of Legends or play Chrono Trigger on my PS Vita while waiting in the obscure spawn location of a random for 8+ hours just to earn the right to do it again on the next trial -- 5 times in a row. None of us pay for this game to sit around in completely empty zones twiddling our thumbs for days at a time.


Just be glad you didn't have to compete with half a zone of people after your same PH.....

There's nothing to be glad about. Even if there was competition on these things -- it wouldn't be competition. It would be us standing around waiting for someone to kill the mob, because we'd all get credit anyway.

[Horadrim]

I read your first post ignored the rest I just want to ask you why you find it necessary to find a nm that you will only need to farm in the short term considering your level of skill need a shorter timed spawn especially since you seem to have a somewhat "accurate" time frame down for how long it takes for an nm to spawn? these aren't catereed exactly to magian trials... SE themselves said they were going to use less used ph nms for trials? the reason? who know's but they were made for the items they drop not for your magian trial... well kinda... don't like it gtfo.... everyone bitches about how tough mythic is and how tough relic is (and despite the fact that it only really requires gil(a lot of it) to build it.... it does take time.) but they still don't understand that these weapons are powerful and desired for a reason.... why does empy weapon have to be any different? your following the system it was built into to get what you desire.

They used obscure NM's to get people to visit zones that no one goes into anymore -- it was to spread people out, that's pretty obvious.

Relic Currency Farming and Mythic Weapon quests are great. You have real goals, you can exert actual, measurable effort and get real rewards and progress.

If I made myself a list of all of the objectives I needed to complete for Mythic, I promise you that playing for 4 hours a day I could check at least 2-5 things off the list. Easily. Assault Missions, ToAU quests, Einherjar, Nyzul Isle, Salvage, ZNMs -- Mythic weapons are anything but difficult, for their power and utility they are actually some of the easiest things to get. The problem people have with it is that it takes effort and work. That's what I want: Work. An actual thing to do, not a glorified fetch quest with an arbitrarily long wait attached to it just to make you FEEL like you're doing something. They could knock the first 5 trials off of the list for my H2H empy and it would still take me weeks to a month to finish the afterglow -- just like it would if I decided today to build a static for my Mythic.

That same four hours for Trial 1~5 of Empy? Standing around with a miniscule chance of even finishing what would, at least, take close to 2-3 hours if the spawn timers were tightened anyway.

Tell me I have to get 18 people together to fight an HNM 150 times? Awesome, let's get this shit done -- I can map out how long it'll take me to progress and finish, and I'll enjoy making the effort. Tell me I have to stand around being subject to the thralls of a random number generator wearing a trollface mask? No thanks.

I don't mind working for the things I want. As a matter of fact, the whole point of this is that I WANT to WORK for something, not be told I'm going to be spending the next X number of days either staring at my screen for hours or having to periodically run back to obscure old spawn points hoping the get a pop. I'll probably end up working on my seals/+2 items between pops, but having to waste time with traveling doesn't make it any more like actual "work" -- it just adds to the novelty of the "We're too lazy to come up with a real task for you." busy work.

[RAIST]

Then you should understand the problem with your complaint....it just like all the other whining out there because people basically think it's unfair that some people go 1/1 or 2/2 on a pop or drop, while some go 1/25. That's how the RNG works....a failed result is not removed the set like playing blackjack, so your probability resets everytime you try (in otherwords, you get a new deck with every hand vs dealing repeatedly from the same deck). The percentage for success could actually already be pretty high, it's just that some people basically get unlucky with the fail rate while others are luckier with it.

Sorry, but the QQ'ing over things that have existed for nigh on a decade in this game from players who obviously should know better (either from in-game experience, or seeing how SE does not respond to the complaints) just makes my pimp-hand twitch sometimes. I just happened to be the schmuck who was first to post what I'm sure a lot of people are already thinking.

[Caketime]

I have to disagree with the above deck of cards analogy. If anything the deck used is full of "Sorry, try again!" and "F U forever!" where the rate of success is determined by how often the player manages to draw the Joker card, which features a photo of Tanaka in his underpants eating egg salad.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Trial 68: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 69: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 70: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)

Trial 71: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 72: O ~1.5 hr respawn ~ O ~1.5 hr respawn~ O ~1.5 hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 73: O ~1hr respawn ~ O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)Try something that requires 200 slime kills. It's a 13+ hour trial simply due to the respawn times of the regular mobs.

[Limecat]

I think they should axe all the NM trials prior to the VNM stage. Nothing before those poses any kind of threat, just a bout of hurry up and wait.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

The saying 'time is money' really comes into play when it comes to an endgame weapon.

When did a WoE weapon become "endgame?"

[Caketime]

Condescension is awesome, bro.

[Horadrim]

Try something that requires 200 slime kills. It's a 13+ hour trial simply due to the respawn times of the regular mobs.

I am working on those 3 of those -- and I have no problem with them. Why? Because you can show up a few minutes before the Day (on the ones where you don't need weather), farm for an hour, and call it a day until the next appropriate day. Same with Weaponskills - the speed of your completion is based on your efficiency and the speed of your kills as opposed to random luck of the draw.

Frankly, I greatly prefer those to the NM ones.

[Horadrim]

Then you should understand the problem with your complaint....it just like all the other whining out there because people basically think it's unfair that some people go 1/1 or 2/2 on a pop or drop, while some go 1/25. That's how the RNG works....a failed result is not removed the set like playing blackjack, so your probability resets everytime you try (in otherwords, you get a new deck with every hand vs dealing repeatedly from the same deck). The percentage for success could actually already be pretty high, it's just that some people basically get unlucky with the fail rate while others are luckier with it.

Sorry, but the QQ'ing over things that have existed for nigh on a decade in this game from players who obviously should know better (either from in-game experience, or seeing how SE does not respond to the complaints) just makes my pimp-hand twitch sometimes. I just happened to be the schmuck who was first to post what I'm sure a lot of people are already thinking.

RNG systems work like an individual dice roll each time the placeholder's respawn time complete. If the NM's window is open, it rolls the dice and checks the result to see if you get the NM or the regular mob again.

My problem is not with the Lottery pop system, I have no issue with a RNG-based system or the fact that the NMs aren't gauranteed to pop -- it is with the low spawn rates of the NMs once their window has opened that bugs me, because it is deliberate and arbitrary.

We can go back on forth with this all day: You can tell me I'm "QQ'ing" and "should know better", or that your pimp-hand is purportedly twitching (<-- All things which are neither productive nor a concern for me), but the simple fact of the matter is it is a asinine system that doesn't even have positive effect.

Frankly, I don't care that it has been like this forever -- it was stupid 9 years ago when I wanted a fungus hat because it "looked cool", it was kind of silly 6 years ago when I had to help a friend get a Joyeuse (at least this was was worth the effort), and it was a headache when I wanted a Shaman's Cloak and Moldavite Earring (<-- Timed Spawns are a lot less annoying, but still.) for my SCH 5 years ago. Frankly, I just don't get why the chance of them spawning, especially dealing with these guys who don't even drop anything, has to be so low. If the point is to have people invest time into this thing -- the objective is achieved purely by the fact you have to run out there and that they have 1+ hr long respawns. There's no need to make them a less than 25% (if its even that high) chance of appear on top of that.

I before you continue to explain RNGs again as thought that's just "the nature of the beast" -- The spawn chance of the mobs has to be low for a 1 hour respawn to take up to 8 hours to appear. Unless there's an additional element to the system, say that the mobs have to be spawned before a time limit, there's no way that a mob with a decent spawn chance would take 10 times longer to spawn. No one is that unlucky -- sure, in practice, 1 in 10 could yield 0 every time -- but the grand average of the results should still look similar at least somewhat to 1/10 all things considered.

[Plasticleg]

tl;dr

Lotto-spawns are a nature of the beast for this MMO.
They suck, yes.
And people are that unlucky that 8 hour spawns happen.

[Demon6324236]

They suck, yes.This is why it should be changed, cause it sucks.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I am working on those 3 of those -- and I have no problem with them. Why? Because you can show up a few minutes before the Day (on the ones where you don't need weather), farm for an hour, and call it a day until the next appropriate day. Same with Weaponskills - the speed of your completion is based on your efficiency and the speed of your kills as opposed to random luck of the draw.

Frankly, I greatly prefer those to the NM ones.They're not day/weather trials... If they were, they'd be done in a few hours. The problem is the lack of mobs and their respawn timers. Sitting an a NM for an hour finishes it in 2 hours for 1 trials. It's not random luck, it's not speed of kills. 200 slimes at a 16 minute respawn is 13+ hours of just respawn time, plus the time it takes to kill them. And that's in a prime location. What i'm tell you, that you're not reading, is that a couple of NMs is nothing.

[RAIST]

It is also a complaint based on short/isolated time frames. Drops/spawn times are averages based on collected data over extended time periods. There could in fact be a high wide range of successful results in the formula that leads to an overall high rate of success, but because of the nature of how random isn't really random on a computer (programatically it is actually tied into a predetermined pattern at the core of the algorythm) you can run into extended stretches of failure.

For example, say you are dealing with a 1/4 average chance. Fairly respectable odds in any contest, right? Well, lets say someone just pulled a win, then you pull two wins. Thats 3/3 wins that are mixed into an AVERAGE of 1/4. This opens up the potential now for there to be 12 failures in a row before another win. Doesn't sound right, does it? Well, do the math. 3 wins + 12 losses = 15 tries. If that 16th try is a win, that makes 4 wins for 16 tries---1/4 averaged.

That is just how it goes with the average success rate. Win/lose ratio over time....a looooong time frame.

As for eliminating the lottery spawn on all these things...that would be a MASSIVE undertaking. Look at all the mess over revamping just the land kings to a force-pop system. Imagine spreading that out across all those NM's in the game to cover all these trials and assorted other seemingly trivial NM's. Aside from the resource investment that would have to be made, it would also fly in the face of some balance issues that SE is fond of maintaining.

Besides...in comparison to the past abuse we have received (yes, I am going there again), it is very trivial to say the least. I go there in order to try to put it into perspective....to draw a comparison to how much easier it already is to do these things now than it had been in the past....and yet, it STILL isn't enough. So yes, it DOES come across as QQ'ing. As already stated, you are building some of the best gear in the game. It is not requiring you to form a group specifically to complete these stages, requiring specific jobs/strategies/key items/etc---it can be done casually on your own, or you can opt to team up and speed things up if you so choose. Case in point: it only took me a little over 2 weeks to make my DA katana for NIN, and most of that was from the final stages (mirrors and all). I mean really.....2-3 weeks to casually make a top tier piece of equipment? This is really a hardship?

[pim-ptarutaru]

So, I actually enjoy the idea behind the Magian trials -- but one thing I'm finding annoying is this whole placeholder system. I like the idea of placeholders themselves, but why exactly does the spawn rate of the NM's in question have to be so low that it can take HOURS for them to appear?

I realize over the years that has been used as a sort of time sink, but is it really necessary at this point? Especially for low level mobs that don't even drop anything (My character is standing afk in La Thiene right now so I can try and pop Tumbling Truffle. Mind you, before I left for work this morning I was there for almost 2 hours trying to spawn it, even if someone had killed it just before I got there, there's no reason I shouldn't have gotten a spawn.)

Arguably, I can understand the idea of bogging people down as they work on their Empyrean weapons -- but at the same time initial "stand around and wait" is silly when you consider that you have to farm 30~75+ drops from higher level NMs who only drop 0~2 of the respective item. Even though that's tedious, I consider it the proper kind of tedious = Straightforward, active, and decently challenging with a curve that increases as your weapon gains power. It's variable interval reward system (good) vs. straight gambling with your time (bad).

Considering you end up having to farm Abyssea NMs just to break into earliest stage of your EMP Weapon (again, a good thing) I think its high time for a boost to the spawn rate of Placeholder mobs so we can cut straight to the interesting part of the Magian quests.

I don't see why something that already takes 10+ hours (plus travel time) by default should end up taking DAYS due to bad luck with spawns.

I can't be the only one who finds Stage 1~5 (depends on weapon, but for H2H its the first 5 trials) of building Empy's completely asinine.

EDIT:

For those who don't get where that 10 hours come from: ( O = 1 kill)

Trial 68: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 69: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 70: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)

Trial 71: O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 72: O ~1.5 hr respawn ~ O ~1.5 hr respawn~ O ~1.5 hr respawn~ O (travel time)
Trial 73: O ~1hr respawn ~ O ~1hr respawn~ O ~1hr respawn~ O (travel time)

That's actually 16.5 hours at a minimum, assuming you can spawn the monster as soon as you get to the camp, not including travel time, and there aren't any other variables or mistakes.
damn you act like thats a long time lol... (don't cry how you have a job, kids, life because i to have these things) these wpn trials are piss easy not that time consuming. I can claim nm then break for an hour and get some work done around my house then go back at it claim another nm then go back to what i was doing. If your lucky to get to spot where ppl are already camping you can ask them to do a few claims for you or what not ifyou team up with them. You guys act as if its the end of the world....

[pim-ptarutaru]

When did a WoE weapon become "endgame?"
haha for real

[Kari]

Lotto pop NM trials are stupid.

I end up playing other games for many hours during those trials.
Time sinks in MMOs should not have enough DOWN TIME to allow me to play other games or what-have-you.

[Tickmeoff]

The entire NM camping portion of empyrean weapons should just be dropped.

Look at Ochain and Daurdabla. No NM camping garbage, you buy the base item with cruor and get straight to killing NMs in Abyssea. That's how every single empyrean weapon should be.

[Aeonk]

The entire NM camping portion of empyrean weapons should just be dropped.

Look at Ochain and Daurdabla. No NM camping garbage, you buy the base item with cruor and get straight to killing NMs in Abyssea. That's how every single empyrean weapon should be.

And the counter-balance to that ease of entry:

Colorless Souls.

I'd much rather catch up on a back log of video games or mess around on Youtube while killing a PH every few minutes (or letting other campers kill for me) than deal with competing with anyone/everyone in abyssea for VNM's, only to finally claim one and NOT get an upgrade.

[Horadrim]

damn you act like thats a long time lol... (don't cry how you have a job, kids, life because i to have these things) these wpn trials are piss easy not that time consuming. I can claim nm then break for an hour and get some work done around my house then go back at it claim another nm then go back to what i was doing. If your lucky to get to spot where ppl are already camping you can ask them to do a few claims for you or what not ifyou team up with them. You guys act as if its the end of the world....

It's NOT a long time. My point is that there's no real point of the first 5 trials -- they are literally just to waste your time.

I just don't like standing around/logging out and doing something else (I.E. playing a completely different game) in order to make "progress" at something.

And no, I'm not acting like its the end of the world. I noted a legitimate problem with the design of the game, proceeded to state that I think it should be changed to something more involving, and then stated my reasons for feeling this way.

If you can't handle people posting their opinions and view points, why are you on a forum?




As for eliminating the lottery spawn on all these things...that would be a MASSIVE undertaking. Look at all the mess over revamping just the land kings to a force-pop system. Imagine spreading that out across all those NM's in the game to cover all these trials and assorted other seemingly trivial NM's. Aside from the resource investment that would have to be made, it would also fly in the face of some balance issues that SE is fond of maintaining.

I wouldn't want it removed from everything. I don't mind the lottery pop system, I just think its application in the Magian trials was lazy and abused.



Besides...in comparison to the past abuse we have received (yes, I am going there again), it is very trivial to say the least. I go there in order to try to put it into perspective....to draw a comparison to how much easier it already is to do these things now than it had been in the past....and yet, it STILL isn't enough. So yes, it DOES come across as QQ'ing. As already stated, you are building some of the best gear in the game. It is not requiring you to form a group specifically to complete these stages, requiring specific jobs/strategies/key items/etc---it can be done casually on your own, or you can opt to team up and speed things up if you so choose. Case in point: it only took me a little over 2 weeks to make my DA katana for NIN, and most of that was from the final stages (mirrors and all).

I like the way Relic and Mythic weapons work -- you have to actually put in effort. I have a spreadsheet of tasks I need to complete to get my Kenkonken(sp?), including farming keys for ToAU megabosses, collecting all Assaults, finishing my Runic Disc, beating Odin and Salvage bosses, etc. <-- Excluding Alexandrite, all of that stuff makes perfect sense as a task for building an end game weapon. I can map out more or less exactly how long it'll take me to do, and I can work on multiple parts of it while key elements are on cool down (I can build Zeni and do lower tier fights while after I use all of my assault tags, etc etc etc) -- It's things you can do that allow you to actually build your weapon and PLAY the game.

Again, the only problem I have with the Empy weapons is when you tell me that I have to spend ages not doing anything and call that a task. I'm failing to see how wanting to actually have a real task to complete beyond busy work is QQ'ing.

I'd rather go farm Dynamis for weeks solo than stand around for days "hoping for the best." But meh -- I'm already going to have to content myself with playing League of Legend to build a weapon in Final Fantasy XI, as asinine as that sounds, I just felt that the whole point of having forums is to have a place to voice your opinions and share your thoughts with the community.

I've got no problem with the end elements of the quest lines (I'm looking forward to suffering over farming Riftcinder, etc, etc) -- I just don't like the idea of having to sit around to get to the point where I start farming ANMs. (Hell, if you gave me an NM I could get my 6th Trial weapon from, I'd be game for that, even if the drop rate was piss poor.)

[Horadrim]

And the counter-balance to that ease of entry:

Colorless Souls.

I'd much rather catch up on a back log of video games or mess around on Youtube while killing a PH every few minutes (or letting other campers kill for me) than deal with competing with anyone/everyone in abyssea for VNM's, only to finally claim one and NOT get an upgrade.

See, but at least that's work -- mind you, tedious work, but something you can actively work on. Form a good static and you can make real progress. (I'm building a static for my Mythic/End-stage Empy weapon stuff) It's not forcing you to something else to do for hours, lol.

[SpankWustler]

My point is that there's no real point of the first 5 trials -- they are literally just to waste your time.

Sadly, I think wasting your time is the real point of the first five trials and they're unlikely to be changed.

If you intentionally released a bunch of bears into a shopping center hoping those bears would eat people, how would you react to the pained howls of "Oh Christ, a bear is eating my face!" or "That bear is dipping my baby in some Polynesian Sauce from Chick-Fil-A!" that confirmed those bears were eating people? I'm pretty sure you'd just laugh like a maniac rather than suddenly changing your opinion about bears eating people.

[Horadrim]

Sadly, I think wasting your time is the real point of the first five trials and they're unlikely to be changed.

If you intentionally released a bunch of bears into a shopping center hoping those bears would eat people, how would you react to the pained howls of "Oh Christ, a bear is eating my face!" or "That bear is dipping my baby in some Polynesian Sauce from Chick-Fil-A!" that confirmed those bears were eating people? I'm pretty sure you'd just laugh like a maniac rather than suddenly changing your opinion about bears eating people.

Completely fair point, lol.

Still, would be nice if they added a way to farm Trial 6 weapons.

[Rwolf]

I think personally the focus is being centered on the amount of time in total it takes for lottery NM trials. The problem isn't how long in total the trial is, it's the amount in one sitting you are potentially forced to take to reap rewards.

Day/weather trials have nothing to do with that. There's no comparison between the two. With kill X amount of X under X conditions, you still have the ability to choose your progression speed. You can burrow straight through trying to complete it without logging off. Or you can casually do it as you see the conditions for the trial appear. Both methods are progress, just one is faster than the other.

Sure, throughout FFXI's history there have been tons of bottlenecks for items and NMs. Causing long wait times and competition. It doesn't make it effective that it was continued for so long. While there are some people who enjoy this aspect of the game, it was few and far between. The more content was added in that fashion, the more the game's population declined. Which eventually prompted a lot of newer content with pop items, etc.

I don't think the solution to a problem is to suggest other tasks while waiting like chores or playing another game. That to me is a major game flaw, any game should always strive to keep you immersed in some manner even if it is through some sort of repetition. You essentially either wait staring at the screen for hours while killing the placeholder or go do something else in between (which I've done both personally).

The game is going to have time sinks, I don't think that will ever go away as it's fundamental to reasons to play. However, there are ways to give players a time sink effectively which promotes the game's enjoyment overall. All other Magian trials give a sense of immediate progression. You create your own level of moderation (if at all) and that creates a sense of control and an illusion of immediate reward. With lottery NM's, if a player has limited play time, 4 hours for example. If the NM doesn't spawn in that time, then they are left feeling nothing accomplished, nothing challenging or engaging.

[Horadrim]

Snip

Exactly this.

Glad I'm not crazy here...

[Demon6324236]

Emp trials come in three stages.
1:Patience, this trial is just camping Lottery NMs, NMs that are much lower leveled than you, no level 75 could have an ounce of challenge from, and are there just to annoy the living **** out of you. This trial simply tries your patience to see if you are worthy of it, and just how long you will sit around, killing a single bunny over, and over, and over again...

2:Teamwork:Most VNMs can not be killed by a single person very easily, its often done with other people doing the same trial, this is your teamwork, and though it may be your ally for a bit, the next trial simply puts you against one another right after your alliance.

3:Perseverance:This is the trial where you must show your true determination. You must grind through the same NM 25~50 times for the same items over and over again, fighting against those very people who were once aiding you with the VNMs so that you can get the pops first to complete yours. You may occasionally wipe, or get highly annoyed at the NMs in your path, but you must have the determination to get through it in order to win.



Thats the three trials in my opinion. Really its a load of BS except the first one, which is really what it is, a test of patience, wasting your time obviously because nothing of it is relevant. For what reason should a level 75+ use a weapon to kill a mob that is 40 levels under them? Its the same as if you could do Fire weather trials on Too Weak mobs, its pointless, there is no challenge which is what should be the entire point...

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Emp trials come in three stages.
1:Patience, this trial is just camping Lottery NMs, NMs that are much lower leveled than you, no level 75 could have an ounce of challenge from, and are there just to annoy the living **** out of you. This trial simply tries your patience to see if you are worthy of it, and just how long you will sit around, killing a single bunny over, and over, and over again...

2:Teamwork:Most VNMs can not be killed by a single person very easily, its often done with other people doing the same trial, this is your teamwork, and though it may be your ally for a bit, the next trial simply puts you against one another right after your alliance.

And you've also just described the first two phases of getting a Walk of Echoes weapon. The only thing that should be eye-gougingly annoying about getting an Empyrean should be what separates the two: the third phase. Now maybe this is S-E's way to discourage players from getting both weapons, but phase 3 for a WoE weapon (beyond ZOMGWTFBBQWoE) is lolKC's. Contrast that to "Kill rarab #861-B6, wait 5 min, GOTO 10."

[Yinnyth]

For what reason should a level 75+ use a weapon to kill a mob that is 40 levels under them? Its the same as if you could do Fire weather trials on Too Weak mobs, its pointless, there is no challenge which is what should be the entire point...

It's a really weak weapon at that point. "Here, take this blunt, flaccid sword and go use it to slay Khimaira 3 times. Then when you get back, we can talk about your second, harder trial." Sounds a bit cruel.

And when's the last time you got killed doing a fire weather trial? Those aren't exactly challenging either, they're just "Waste ___ amount of hours killing ___ during ___ weather". The hardest part of those trials is having the patience to keep grinding.

[Demon6324236]

It's a really weak weapon at that point. "Here, take this blunt, flaccid sword and go use it to slay Khimaira 3 times. Then when you get back, we can talk about your second, harder trial." Sounds a bit cruel.

And when's the last time you got killed doing a fire weather trial? Those aren't exactly challenging either, they're just "Waste ___ amount of hours killing ___ during ___ weather". The hardest part of those trials is having the patience to keep grinding.I don't mean to say those mobs are challenging, but they are at least going to be EP or above, because they have to be in order to count. The NMs on the other hand are incredibly weak by compare to the player killing them, there is absolutely no challenge involved, ands its even more annoying doing NMs because for them you are just waiting. At least with trials like the fire trials you are active, you are trying to speed up, go faster, and kill as many as you can before your time runs out, those keep you doing something. Any time I have made an Emp up past the NM stage it has been right after a new game comes out, so I have something to actually do while I waste my time on this game doing those trials. No part of a game should be so boring or annoying it literally makes you want to go play something else at the same time because you have to wait so long to get moving on a part that is at very least involving!

The way I meant what I said was not that Fire Trials are hard or something, but rather that they are at very least EP or above, they might actually kill you depending on where you are or what trial you are doing. Find me a single NM you have to fight for Emp trials before VNMs that actually have the slightest chance at killing you in normal combat, the problem is, there are none, or at least none I have ever fought, because they target level 20~60 mobs which can not even scratch level 75+ players.

[RAIST]

I think personally the focus is being centered on the amount of time in total it takes for lottery NM trials. The problem isn't how long in total the trial is, it's the amount in one sitting you are potentially forced to take to reap rewards.

Day/weather trials have nothing to do with that. There's no comparison between the two. With kill X amount of X under X conditions, you still have the ability to choose your progression speed. You can burrow straight through trying to complete it without logging off. Or you can casually do it as you see the conditions for the trial appear. Both methods are progress, just one is faster than the other.

Sure, throughout FFXI's history there have been tons of bottlenecks for items and NMs. Causing long wait times and competition. It doesn't make it effective that it was continued for so long. While there are some people who enjoy this aspect of the game, it was few and far between. The more content was added in that fashion, the more the game's population declined. Which eventually prompted a lot of newer content with pop items, etc.

I don't think the solution to a problem is to suggest other tasks while waiting like chores or playing another game. That to me is a major game flaw, any game should always strive to keep you immersed in some manner even if it is through some sort of repetition. You essentially either wait staring at the screen for hours while killing the placeholder or go do something else in between (which I've done both personally).

The game is going to have time sinks, I don't think that will ever go away as it's fundamental to reasons to play. However, there are ways to give players a time sink effectively which promotes the game's enjoyment overall. All other Magian trials give a sense of immediate progression. You create your own level of moderation (if at all) and that creates a sense of control and an illusion of immediate reward. With lottery NM's, if a player has limited play time, 4 hours for example. If the NM doesn't spawn in that time, then they are left feeling nothing accomplished, nothing challenging or engaging.

<mostly to the italicised parts>
Think this is one important point that is being left out here.

CHOICE

No one is forcing you to do anything.

No one is forcing you to do the trials....you are CHOOSING to do it, inspite of knowing of the impending time sink.

After CHOOSING to undertake these trials, no one is forcing you to sit around all day waiting for respawns. If you decide to sit around all day waiting to essentially one-shot a low level NM, you are CHOOSING to spend that time doing nothing else.

You can do these things with a strong commitment, spending an entire Saturday afternoon trying to get the spawns. You can also opt to check each evening to see if you get the NM, then after a short while head off to do something else in game. Or you could sit around and watch the news/sitcoms/movies while passively playing the game hoping to get the NM.

If you think the system is abusive/flawed/whatever negative description you want to use to describe it.... you are still CHOOSING to do it.

Nothing in the game, nor any player is forcing you to do these things.

[Rwolf]

<mostly to the italicised parts>
Think this is one important point that is being left out here.

CHOICE

No one is forcing you to do anything.

No one is forcing you to do the trials....you are CHOOSING to do it, inspite of knowing of the impending time sink.

After CHOOSING to undertake these trials, no one is forcing you to sit around all day waiting for respawns. If you decide to sit around all day waiting to essentially one-shot a low level NM, you are CHOOSING to spend that time doing nothing else.

You can do these things with a strong commitment, spending an entire Saturday afternoon trying to get the spawns. You can also opt to check each evening to see if you get the NM, then after a short while head off to do something else in game. Or you could sit around and watch the news/sitcoms/movies while passively playing the game hoping to get the NM.

If you think the system is abusive/flawed/whatever negative description you want to use to describe it.... you are still CHOOSING to do it.

Nothing in the game, nor any player is forcing you to do these things.

You realize RAIST that by italicizing and only commenting on a fragment of what I wrote, you are no longer commenting on what I wrote. You are commenting on a fragment of a sentence and bringing it out of context and into your own context to fit your response.

The game isn't forcing me to do the trial. I didn't say that at all and that is not the context I used the word force. Force/forcing has more than one meaning. I am not saying FFXI is "coercing" me to do anything, that would be silly.

When force/forced is used as a verb, it can mean "to constrain". The game does constrain a player to spend (potentially and very often on some) a very lengthy amount of time to make any progress. Lengthy as in most of FFXI's other game elements are done in a fraction of that time. 1/2, 1/3, even less. That is why I compared it to other elements of the game such as Dynamis, other Magian trials, etc. To show there is a lot of content that you can make even an iota of progression without spending 6+ hours in one sitting.

I respect your opinion that you believe spending that amount of time is considered a reasonable commitment or accomplishment. I personally disagree with you. I don't believe it is a true measure of commitment. Some people are fortunate to have freer schedules than others, but I wouldn't say they are less committed when they are actually playing the game. Nor are players who do, it shouldn't matter. I have a free schedule so I'm not playing the "QQ" role of it's not fair because I can't do it. I have done it. Still do. Still same opinion of it.

When I stated my opinion that it's a major game flaw, it's purely about game mechanics. I never said anything about it being abusive. That would require the game actually taking advantage of me somehow, which is also silly. If a video game is not keeping a player immersed that one of the only solutions expressed is to go watch TV or a movie. In order to break up the monotony of the 5-20 seconds killing a monster and waiting 5-10 minutes, it's a flaw to me.

You're saying that I'm describing the game negatively. It's constructive criticism. You don't have to agree with my opinion or like it. The whole point of having official forums is feedback on the game. This also comes from the Director himself wishing such, so not all posts will be "everything is going great!". If you feel opposed then state why you feel the mechanics of the Empyrean weapon Magian trials work and are balanced versus focusing on criticizing me. I always have an open mind for reading contrasting constructive criticism for the game and sometimes end up agreeing. Dissecting words of what I'm saying to comment on and injecting words I didn't say, makes it personal criticism versus expressing your views of the game's current mechanics.

[Yinnyth]

You realize RAIST that by italicizing and only commenting on a fragment of what I wrote, you are no longer commenting on what I wrote. You are commenting on a fragment of a sentence and bringing it out of context and into your own context to fit your response.

Yeah, that's something you're just going to have to learn deal with. If we all went through every last word you chose and list everything we agree or disagree with, our wall of text would block out the sun and usher in a new ice age. At least he left the whole post in the quote box for people to read, unlike what I'm doing to your post for simplicity's sake.


When I stated my opinion that it's a major game flaw, it's purely about game mechanics. I never said anything about it being abusive. That would require the game actually taking advantage of me somehow, which is also silly. If a video game is not keeping a player immersed that one of the only solutions expressed is to go watch TV or a movie. In order to break up the monotony of the 5-20 seconds killing a monster and waiting 5-10 minutes, it's a flaw to me.

So constant action is what you're looking for in a video game? Your belief is that everything in this game should require our undivided attention and constant interaction? If I am understanding you correctly, that's a very hardcore outlook on what MMOs should be. It feels strange for me to be in the casual camp for FFXI, but the truth is that I'm ok with some things in the game being that low key. Obviously, I don't want the whole game to be that way, but it's fine with me that some things are not fast paced.

Heck, I'm more than fine with it. I don't want to earn my abililty to do a single yell in town by scoring 200 points in boggle in under 5 minutes. I don't want to chase my equipment around my MH to catch it every time I change jobs. Obviously, this is not what your vision for the game is, I'm merely using hyperbole to illustrate the fact that not everything in an MMO should pose a challenge to you.

[nyheen]

And when's the last time you got killed doing a fire weather trial? Those aren't exactly challenging either, they're just "Waste ___ amount of hours killing ___ during ___ weather". The hardest part of those trials is having the patience to keep grinding.

them fire trials are not really bad because all i need to do is talk to the weather npc or check this ffxi weather site (http://ff11info.com/bazaar/en/weather.php) and iam good to go. some can done on weather or just fireday. if it said Hot Spells/Heat Waves then it will 100% POP on that day. if you want to wait 7 game days of just saying Sunny/Sunshine/Fair/Fog/Clouds taking that random chance then that you wasting your time.

[RAIST]

Wasn't criticizing you specifically Rwolf...it's just that those words prompted the thought, so I used them. It was more a comment in general on this topic that has come up several times before. People have continually come back to whine about these things over and over again...complaining about how they are forced to waste all their time on them, how they are repeatedly (for lack of a better word that comes to mind at the moment) abused by the game's random generation system...and yet they continually choose to take said abuse over and over again. It's not just the lotto spawns...it's drop rates, it's weather trials, BCNM/KSNM, pretty much anything that is bound to the randomness of the game. No matter how many times the theories/examples/actual proof is put forth...it's still "nuh uh... it's stupid and should be removed/changed to my way of thinking because my way is better"--instead of findking a way to work within the constructs of design, people just want more easy buttons, regardless of how many they have already been given.

That was more the point I was trying to bring forth. Sorry if it came across as something more personal. It was meant more as a /thread comment, not directed at you.

[Edit:}
But...going back and reading it again, it actually does kind of fit with what you stated in the first paragraph:

The problem isn't how long in total the trial is, it's the amount in one sitting you are potentially forced to take to reap rewards.
That does kind of imply that the game forces you to spend undesirable time in one sitting in order to reap the rewards, shich goes along with the point I was making. The game doesn't necessarily force you to sit there for long hours. If you widescan, see the placeholder, kill it, and it repops shortly afterwards and not the NM--nothing is making you rinse/repeat that process for 8 hours. You are choosing to set aside that time to repeat the task. It pretty much falls in line with that post about fire weather. You have several options for completing those trials--it can be a well organized plan that streamlines it (you can somehat predict fire if you track it well enough--it will likely be in the volbow iceday forecast when I expect to be on tomorrow night, b/t 7:30-8:30PM Eastern), or it can be a laid back approach that causes little/no anxiety (by day in abyssea), or one can go at it haphazardly and get exasperated with the process because they miss opportunites to finish it in a more timely fashion. It pretty much boils down to choices on if/how people choose to gear and play.

[Rwolf]

Yeah, that's something you're just going to have to learn deal with. If we all went through every last word you chose and list everything we agree or disagree with, our wall of text would block out the sun and usher in a new ice age. At least he left the whole post in the quote box for people to read, unlike what I'm doing to your post for simplicity's sake.

And a direct communication with someone else's name concerns you why Yinnyth? That entire reply is a twist of words and has nothing to do with what I was pointing out. Then attack on the length in my post in a very unneccessary dramatic fashion. You're only coming off as a provocator, inciting something that wasn't even stated.


So constant action is what you're looking for in a video game? Your belief is that everything in this game should require our undivided attention and constant interaction? If I am understanding you correctly, that's a very hardcore outlook on what MMOs should be. It feels strange for me to be in the casual camp for FFXI, but the truth is that I'm ok with some things in the game being that low key. Obviously, I don't want the whole game to be that way, but it's fine with me that some things are not fast paced.

You're twisting words and continuing to insert words I didn't state. At no point I said undivided attention or constant. Those are really extreme words as if there's no room for reprieve. I agree it's hardcore, it's also your own words, not mine. Tailoring what I said to add your own extreme descriptions is just arguing with yourself. I agree there should be different levels of content, I don't agree with earlier magian trials being low key. Things don't have to be fast paced to be engaging, that's a very limited viewpoint.


Heck, I'm more than fine with it. I don't want to earn my abililty to do a single yell in town by scoring 200 points in boggle in under 5 minutes. I don't want to chase my equipment around my MH to catch it every time I change jobs. Obviously, this is not what your vision for the game is, I'm merely using hyperbole to illustrate the fact that not everything in an MMO should pose a challenge to you.

Your hyperboles aren't used in the manner of drawing attention to a point. They are simply like the rest of your post exaggerating everything stated. It's fine to have an opposite opinion, state why you believe it works versus spending 3 paragraphs to tell me about myself.

[Demon6324236]

It's not just the lotto spawns...it's drop rates, it's weather trials, BCNM/KSNM, pretty much anything that is bound to the randomness of the game. No matter how many times the theories/examples/actual proof is put forth...it's still "nuh uh... it's stupid and should be removed/changed to my way of thinking because my way is better"--instead of findking a way to work within the constructs of design, people just want more easy buttons, regardless of how many they have already been given.Sorry, when a game is making me wait long enough that I want to play another game, its a bad game. When only a few select parts of a game do that, its bad parts to a game. There should be no time in a game when a player feels as though they should simply stop playing it because it is making them do nothing. Some things in the game are down right stupid. Drop rates on VW stuff for instance, drops as low as .5% like the VW weapons, these are insane, and stupid beyond words. There is no reason a player should be expected to fight something an average of 200 times to obtain a weapon or any item at all, it is ludicrous!

You can argue people want 'easy button's but I do not want easy buttons I want a fun and interactive game of which keeps my attention. If a game is boring me to the point I have to have another game to play at the same time then there is a problem with the game, and in this case its Randomly Generated Numbers which do nothing more than waste your time. There is a point when random is good or bad. Should every drop be a 100% drop? No, of course not, should there be drops that are as low as less than a single percent? No, thats insanely stupid. Luck has a good boundary, a good middle where things become ok, or not ok. Were the items with .5% drop rates put on monsters that were easy to kill, like normal mobs, rather than NMs you need 12~18 people to kill, that would be one thing. But they go out of their way to make this game annoying and lottery spawn NMs are no different.

They make you waste your time coming back every 5 minutes to see if a NM popped up yet or if you slaughter another worthless creature so you may get a bit of progress on your trial even though this particular creature had absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the trials, story behind the weapon, or any connection to it at all. Be my guest and say I want more easy buttons, take my post how you wish, I do not want anything more than a game that keeps me playing it rather than making me play something else at the same time because its that boring. I have yet to meet a person who legitimately enjoys camping lottery spawn NMs, and I have met a lot of people both doing it and otherwise, any time the subject comes up they do nothing but explain their dislike of it. One thing about that which everyone should understand, if none of the players like it, then you should get rid of it!

[Rwolf]

RAIST,

Understandably so and my initial post was nothing about whining. I honestly believe the total time to make a weapon is very reasonable. I personally find having to spend a long amount of time in one sitting not a good game mechanic. Almost nothing else in the game has this logic. I also stated initially that the trials can be adjusted to compensate, given the same amount of time. I personally don't feel it's requesting an easy button to agree with the OP that the trials could be balanced to give progression in the same time as most other events/activities in FFXI.

I understand some people desire the old ways and the difficulty that comes with such, that'll never change. I respect your opinion that you find value in that length being an accomplishment. I do not. There is nothing that separates anyone from simply teaming up with someone and going afk for several hours to see if someone else finished it for them. The trial itself is not difficult, it's a huge time sink. And in a purely game mechanics (reward, effort and time) point of view, it is very flawed.


That was more the point I was trying to bring forth. Sorry if it came across as something more personal. It was meant more as a /thread comment, not directed at you.

It was very direct to highlighting and stripping my post, which is why I took it as such and it was pretty accurate. Though I appreciate you clearing up that wasn't the point of your post and retracting it. That is very commendable.

The game does constrict you to sitting there for potentially long hours to gain a reward (1 point on the magian trial objective). You are misconstruing what I mean by force and constrict. I am not stating the game forces you to do the trial or to not give up and come back later. I am stating you have one method to accomplish the goal. Kill placeholder, wait there, rinse and repeat. There is nothing that will make the length of time change, it is a constant.

It has no relation to weather trials. As you stated there are multiple ways of completing a weather trial. More focused to what I'm stating you have a reward (points toward your magian trial objective) in a shorter amount of time in one sitting.

I respect the opinions of anyone who believes these trials are a necessity but I've yet to hear why the mechanic works other than "stop making the game easier" and "stop QQ" or "they aren't going to do it so stop trying" which isn't describing anything. It's a forum, ideas will be rehashed. Jumping on people in an effort to make them let it go because you don't want to see it in the top threads isn't doing anything but us going back and forth. My goal on these boards is to provide constructive criticism and for the development team and to discuss pros/cons of any of the issues discussed.

[Yinnyth]

And a direct communication with someone else's name concerns you why Yinnyth? That entire reply is a twist of words and has nothing to do with what I was pointing out. Then attack on the length in my post in a very unneccessary dramatic fashion. You're only coming off as a provocator, inciting something that wasn't even stated.



You're twisting words and continuing to insert words I didn't state. At no point I said undivided attention or constant. Those are really extreme words as if there's no room for reprieve. I agree it's hardcore, it's also your own words, not mine. Tailoring what I said to add your own extreme descriptions is just arguing with yourself. I agree there should be different levels of content, I don't agree with earlier magian trials being low key. Things don't have to be fast paced to be engaging, that's a very limited viewpoint.



Your hyperboles aren't used in the manner of drawing attention to a point. They are simply like the rest of your post exaggerating everything stated. It's fine to have an opposite opinion, state why you believe it works versus spending 3 paragraphs to tell me about myself.

Oh sorry, was I rude to intrude on your conversation on these public forums? Seems we got off on the wrong foot, so let's start over. Hi, I don't believe we've met! My name is Yinnyth. I couldn't help but overhear the conversation you're having, and I'd like to point out that it's unwieldy to reply to every point a person makes because each reply would triple in length until it gets to the point where no one is willing or able to read it in their entire lifetime. Instead, it's better to focus on one topic at a time, so I believe what Raist did would be considered acceptable in most situations.

As a side note, I don't believe I completely understand what you're trying to say in regards to these lotto-pop NMs. Your belief appears to be that the trials involving them are too innactive to ever be a part of any video game... do I have this correct? If so, where do you choose to draw the line? How would you go about fixing this?

[Demon6324236]

How would you go about fixing this?My way at least would be to make it more active, an example of which would be to change it to T1 VNMs, lower Abyssea NMs, common mobs even, something that requires constant participation to continue rather than a waiting timer like with lottery spawn timers. As I said with my other post above, Emps have nothing to do with these NMs they have us hunting down.

[Yinnyth]

My way at least would be to make it more active, an example of which would be to change it to T1 VNMs, lower Abyssea NMs, common mobs even, something that requires constant participation to continue rather than a waiting timer like with lottery spawn timers. As I said with my other post above, Emps have nothing to do with these NMs they have us hunting down.

Interesting, but would you be alright with the average time investment remaining the same as long as it's all active time instead of inactive time? I personally have no interest in making these trials any easier overall. If I'm not mistaken, Empys are still by far the most common of the endgame weapons due to the ease of acquiring them.

[Demon6324236]

Interesting, but would you be alright with the average time investment remaining the same as long as it's all active time instead of inactive time? I personally have no interest in making these trials any easier overall. If I'm not mistaken, Empys are still by far the most common of the endgame weapons due to the ease of acquiring them.Yes, I would rather kill 15~20 NMs which I have to actually try to kill than to wait for hours coming back every 5 minutes so that I could kill a single NM 3 times. It depends how much you count as the average time though, I would say take the current average active time(time spent moving, attacking, or in any other way actively doing something in game) but doubled would be what I would like. So if you spend 1 minute tracking down a mob and killing it every 5 minutes, and you have to kill an average of 6 mobs, thats 6~8 active minutes per NM kill once you count in the NM itself. At 3 NMs a trial right now, that would become an average time investment of around 30 minutes or less, and once doubled it would become around a hour. While that may seem small, thats really about how much time you would spend actually doing something in game if not less with the trials right now, so it seems fair to me.

[Yinnyth]

And do you believe this sort of innactive, casual trial has no place in the game whatsoever? Or are you ok with it being part of the game as long as it's doesn't give rewards you personally are interested in?

[Demon6324236]

I don't think it should be in any game. As I said, no part of a game should be so lackluster and boring that it literally makes me want to play another game, or in my specific case, makes me avoid doing it at all until I have a new game that can keep my attention long enough to muddle through the trials. A game is meant to be for fun and entertainment, some people go further than that, but in either case I can not see a good reason on the as to why the game should have content that no one or at least very few people actually like that is nothing more than wasting time on the players part.

[Yinnyth]

A game is meant to be for fun and entertainment, some people go further than that, but in either case I can not see a good reason on the as to why the game should have content that no one or at least very few people actually like that is nothing more than wasting time on the players part.

An excellent point, that is exactly what games should do. However, what you find to be fun and entertaining is most likely different from what I find fun and entertaining. As an example, my favorite event in FFXI was old-school Dynamis before it was turned casual, and designed to reward people for spamming the easy portions more than accomplishing the difficult portions. Almost no one likes old Dynamis besides me, so when it was changed, I had to suck it up and deal with it.

Please, allow me to share my viewpoint on trials in general. A trial which allows me to take a couple actions every 5-15 minutes, then spend the time between doing whatever I like is less tedious than something which demands my constant attention, such as watching for weather, then attacking creatures who could kill me if I went afk shortly after provoking one, but otherwise stand no chance against me.

You are correct that with these trials, the game is not directly entertaining me during the downtime. I find my own source of entertainment, or simply do without. But as a normal human being, I have interests outside of FFXI. During this downtime, I could perhaps exercise to prevent my muscles from atrophying. Or maybe just focus my eyes on something a little further away to reduce the damage that constantly staring at a screen causes.

Simply said: I'm glad there are some things in game that are so casual, I can do other things while simultaneously progressing my ingame character.

Do I want the whole game to be like that? Hell no. I also want events that are intense and require skill, gear, synergistic job combinations, communication, and tactics. But I don't want the whole game to be one or the other. I want it to be a variety, which is one thing SE has done (relatively) well. I could go into footwork/kill/wait game day/skillup/grind and what I think should be added to the list, but I'm already starting to drift well off the original topic.

Low spawn chance NMs are a casual thing. Things like NNI and Legion are more hardcore. To me, hearing requests to make casual content less casual are as absurd as requests to make hardcore content less hardcore. There will be things you dislike, but they're there because other people DO like them. And also because of clumsy implementation (I'm looking at you, evoliths.)


...that's not fair of me- I liked the idea behind evoliths, it was just too... worthless, convoluted, difficult, and mostly not customizable enough.

TL;DR:
I still like these trials better than I like weather and add effect trials.

[Waldrich]

Sadomasochism thread!!!

[Rwolf]

Oh sorry, was I rude to intrude on your conversation on these public forums? Seems we got off on the wrong foot, so let's start over. Hi, I don't believe we've met! My name is Yinnyth. I couldn't help but overhear the conversation you're having, and I'd like to point out that it's unwieldy to reply to every point a person makes because each reply would triple in length until it gets to the point where no one is willing or able to read it in their entire lifetime. Instead, it's better to focus on one topic at a time, so I believe what Raist did would be considered acceptable in most situations.

As a side note, I don't believe I completely understand what you're trying to say in regards to these lotto-pop NMs. Your belief appears to be that the trials involving them are too innactive to ever be a part of any video game... do I have this correct? If so, where do you choose to draw the line? How would you go about fixing this?

Your text certainly has a flavor for the dramatic. Never stated for anyone to reply to every point I made. You misunderstood the reply to RAIST completely. There was only one topic in my initial post, there was nothing to focus on. You are derailing this subject simply to continue arguing for last word sake.

I have already drawn a line and suggested ways to fix it, if you weren't so fixated on being sarcastic and attacking someone versus reading the initial post then you would have answers to your questions you just asked. If it's too long for you to read, that's your issue not mine. I'm not going to continue to feed the fire. My focus isn't fighting with you and continuing to derail the thread. Since you are incapable of disseminating the two, there's no point in continuing to go back and forth. Say what you wish.

[Rwolf]

I don't think it should be in any game. As I said, no part of a game should be so lackluster and boring that it literally makes me want to play another game, or in my specific case, makes me avoid doing it at all until I have a new game that can keep my attention long enough to muddle through the trials. A game is meant to be for fun and entertainment, some people go further than that, but in either case I can not see a good reason on the as to why the game should have content that no one or at least very few people actually like that is nothing more than wasting time on the players part.

I completely agree with you on that. Any game should strive to get as much fun and entertainment out as possible. And the great thing with MMO's is it evolves, there is always room to improve that. I think your solutions would be more engaging and interesting. I like the approach like T1 NMs constant searching/fight. I think lottery fights can work, I enjoy them. I believe there are ways to optimize it so that you're not spending 4-8+ hours in one sitting.

A suggestion could be that there's a way to know the window for the NM is closed. So you aren't spending up to 2 hours wasting time. Maybe /heal with the trial weapon on gives an obscure message that the Notorious Monster is not near. Another suggestion in combination would be just to raise the overall rate a Notorious Monster would show up if the window is open so you don't have to spend more than an 1-2 hours to get it to appear.

[Horadrim]

I completely agree with you on that. Any game should strive to get as much fun and entertainment out as possible. And the great thing with MMO's is it evolves, there is always room to improve that. I think your solutions would be more engaging and interesting. I like the approach like T1 NMs constant searching/fight. I think lottery fights can work, I enjoy them. I believe there are ways to optimize it so that you're not spending 4-8+ hours in one sitting.

A suggestion could be that there's a way to know the window for the NM is closed. So you aren't spending up to 2 hours wasting time. Maybe /heal with the trial weapon on gives an obscure message that the Notorious Monster is not near. Another suggestion in combination would be just to raise the overall rate a Notorious Monster would show up if the window is open so you don't have to spend more than an 1-2 hours to get it to appear.

Yeah... I'm holding out to do my trials until I can pick up MH3U since there's no way they're going to adjust this. Honestly they should just add a force spawn module akin to Void NMs, like you suggested. You still have to go to the zone, you still have to go wait for respawn, but you can force it as soon as the window is open.

[Rwolf]

Voidwalker NM style is one suggestion that I think works from a game mechanic perspective. However I do personally like that feeling of stumbling upon an NM that the lottery method gives. I just feel the rate of appearance is very low if can take up to 6-8 hours for one appearance. I can definitely understand creating a time sink and the trials can be compensated to require more kills. That would at least open the option that I can now kill at least one NM within 2 hours for certain, versus spending 2 hours for a chance to kill 1. The chance being even lower if I don't know if the window is open.

[Demon6324236]

TL;DR:
I still like these trials better than I like weather and add effect trials.I do as well, afterall that is simply making you be inactive while you must be nearby and watching for the weather, they are worse than lottery pops in that way. In either case like I said, if no one likes it then it should be removed, in this case, no one likes it, so, we know what action should follow. The same can be said of weather trials. Though weather trials have a much more simple fix, just allow SCH weather to count but only for 1 kill rather than 5 when the spell is on you. It would slow it down to balance it but you would not be so dependant on weather so that you have to spend hours in a zone inactive waiting on it.

[Horadrim]

I do as well, afterall that is simply making you be inactive while you must be nearby and watching for the weather, they are worse than lottery pops in that way. In either case like I said, if no one likes it then it should be removed, in this case, no one likes it, so, we know what action should follow. The same can be said of weather trials. Though weather trials have a much more simple fix, just allow SCH weather to count but only for 1 kill rather than 5 when the spell is on you. It would slow it down to balance it but you would not be so dependant on weather so that you have to spend hours in a zone inactive waiting on it.

I mean, its fair to prefer the NM hunting quests -- there's plenty I like about them. (I've never been to the area where Orcfly spawns, for example -- and I love seeing new corners of the world.) I just would like that the variable element of the time didn't give such a high chance that you'll be spending more time than you should (1-2 hours) waiting and killing PH's.

Meanwhile, I did just grab Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate for 3DS -- so at least I have something to do while I work on these. :P. Hopefully I can get through to my Chloris quest by the end of the weekend.

[Yinnyth]

Your text certainly has a flavor for the dramatic. Never stated for anyone to reply to every point I made. You misunderstood the reply to RAIST completely. There was only one topic in my initial post, there was nothing to focus on. You are derailing this subject simply to continue arguing for last word sake.

I have already drawn a line and suggested ways to fix it, if you weren't so fixated on being sarcastic and attacking someone versus reading the initial post then you would have answers to your questions you just asked. If it's too long for you to read, that's your issue not mine. I'm not going to continue to feed the fire. My focus isn't fighting with you and continuing to derail the thread. Since you are incapable of disseminating the two, there's no point in continuing to go back and forth. Say what you wish.


My apologies that this is what I come off as. I assure you I am being sincere and I'm interested to hear how you would go about fixing this design flaw. I have gone back over all your posts, and I regret to say that I completely missed the post you made in immediate response to the OP. Had I seen that earlier, we might have had a more constructive conversation. That was my mistake, so I am sorry.

[RAIST]

not sure some if you guys realize how much you may actually be supporting the point about it being a choice. All this is well documented to be a grindfest, yet people choose to do them. Think about some real-life scenarios. Wal-Mart gets an unreal amount of negative press in some regions. Yet, in spite of it all, people still work there, apply for jobs there, and people shop there. In spite of all the Black Friday horror stories, people still venture out into that madness year after year. Why? Because they value what they get for putting up with the hassle. Some actually have very fundamental disagreements with the companies involved--yet they still do business with them because of the perceived value for doing so. They may have no real expectation of things changing for the better any time soon, but accept it as is, and so long as it doesn't adversely affect the benefit they get for participating, they continue going.

As to the discussion over whether the word choice was "force" or "constrict" is moot when you are aware of the restrictions in advance, and yet you still choose to go through with it. Apparently, you value the item you are making enough to go through it...unless you actually are a Sadomasochist, I guess?

not sure where Rwolf got the impression I was retracting the statement....the post I quoted stated the game was potentially forcing a player to spend an unwanted amount of time on a trial, and then goes on to talk about how one can make choices in how to progress in the game (almost sounds self-contradictory when you condense it like that). That actually is in line with the post I made, but I didn't bring up the point solely in response to that one post, but to the entire thread up to that point. That particular post brought forth the thought because of what was posted (forcing a player to wast time....the player is free to choose the rate of progression)...is that not what I was talking about? So no, it was not a retraction, maybe more along the lines of clarification?

Interesting how pionts were brought up about killing targets repeatedly every 5 minutes in the scope of the lottery NM's. Isn't that what the trials make you do up until the point you are able to trade farmable/purchasible items? Review Tsukino's post about the slimes trial for a little more perspective if the irony doesn't grab you at first.

This also ties into the weather requirement as well. As brought forth in other posts, when they are day/weather requirement, you have options--how you choose to do them can dramatically impact the time it takes to complete the trial. In a way, waiting on weather cycles can be a valid parallel to waiting for a lotto NM to pop---in both scenarios you are waiting for a seemingly low frequency event to occur in order for you to progress. Depending on the success rate of that event occurring, it can be more time consuming for some, less for others. But again, when options are available, player choice can have a direct impact on how much of a restriction there is to progress. One valid option is being completely ignored--one can also opt not to do the trials at all if they do not value the end result as being worthy of the hassle. But, for some reason, people keep trudging through them regardless.

As for the insane drop and pop rates....yes, that is the extreme and is problematic. But, this thread was NOT predicated on such low rates. It was based on a very short-term experience with getting 3 kills. Go back and review the specific example given:

Again, I don't mind the 16.5 hour minimum to finish my Empy up to the Color Abyssite mob -- what I don't like is that that minimum can easily get magnified. Case-in-point: I tried to get Tumbling Truffle this morning before work (the plan was: One in the morning before work while drinking my coffee, one during my lunch break since I live only a 5 minute drive from work, and one as soon as I get home so I can go to Jeuno, get some stuff done, and set up to do the next trial tomorrow.), but due to his poor drop rate I camped him for 2 hours and got nothing before I had to head out to work.
Mind you, no one had been there farming him before me, so his window should have been open from the get go, and even if it was, I was there long enough to where I should have been able to see him twice.

I proceeded to go home during lunch and after 46 minutes, I literally got the spawn right as I was gearing up to walk out of the door.

I think that's a bit asinine. Technically I'm only finishing 1 trial a day at this rate anyway, it shouldn't be so rare for him to spawn that I miss him over the course of a 2 hour window and a second 45 minute one.
Now look at the description right there on the wiki page (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tumbling_Truffle)for the target:

■Lottery Spawn from a Poison Funguar located at the bottom of the ravine at (K-6), accessed by going down the ravine at (H-7) and traveling east through tunnels, every 1-8 hours.
The problem in this scenario seems to be more of an unrealistic expectation of progress, even though there was sufficient evidence to the contrary--yet the player opted to give it a shot anyway, then got upset when the odds were not beaten.

Keep in mind that this does not necessarily mean the NM has an absurdly low spawn rate. It is hard to accurately make that call without access to extensive data. When you are looking at a narrow, isolated instance that only covers a portion of the documented time frame in play, you aren't giving a fare interpretation of the situation. Some people could go 4 hours and get 3 pops--and they'll proclaim it has a GREAT pop rate, then someone comes along and has crappy spawn rates and then it's ZOMG broken and needs to be fixed. But, it could actually be programmed with a more acceptible 25% spawn rate in the end and not a 3% rate...it's just that due to the linear nature of the programming of the RNG, someone got stuck in a bad rutt. For example, the last weapon I did that had lotto NM's was a DA weapon. I did 3 trials in one day...started on a weekend and (thanks to some teaming up over the course of one weekend) I got through the weapon in just over 2 weeks. Was I lucky? Possibly... apparently maybe moreso than the OP. Does that mean Deadly Dodo definately has an awesome spawn rate? Absolutely not. In the time frame I was doing it, yes...it was incredible. But someone coming along next weekend may not be so lucky. But, over the course of 50 people doing that trial, it actually may be pretty decent as an average of all instances.

In reality, it may not be the programmed spawn rate of the lotto system that is the problem. It may in fact be more an issue with the RNG programming itself. Again though, it all comes down to the fact that inspite of all that may be working against the player because of how the RNG functions, players have always opted to try repeatedly to farm Ni, PCC, etc. and have farmed lotto NM's for various reasons. It is still their choice to do it....nothing or no one is making them do these things, they are choosing to do it regardless of how crummy they already know the experience may be.

Oh yeah... and I don't recall any of the targets in these trials being linked to the weapons in any kind of story line or anything. Well, maybe some are in a round-about way...like SAM killing ghosts kind of links back to it's roots and what not. But, in general, it reads more as just a lot of kill this mob x number of times under y conditions with no apparent rhyme or reason as to why you are doing it.

Basically....ALL the trials are like that: a mind-numbing process of standing around waiting for the right conditions to slaughter seemingly irrelevant targets repeatedly until we get to the end to get our new shiny. If that carrot dangling at the end of the string just out of our reach wasn't so appealing, no one would bother with it. Yet....people still choose to push through the crud to get to the good stuff at the end. Tsukino's reference to the slimes trial is a good example. You could be spending just as much time actively killing PH's every 5 minutes for an NM leg as you do killing the slimes every 16 minutes for your 200 kills under weather/day. The only difference is you were seeing one scenario's progress increment with every kill when weather/day was up, the other with each kill of the NM that popped in place of the PH. In both cases, you may have still run around killing 200 mobs to complete the trial and spent the same amount of time waiting around for the right conditions in which to kill mobs. In neither scenario, having to kill all those mobs in a restricitve fashion really doesn't make much sense in the end other than it was required to progress the trials you have elected to undertake.

Basically, if it bothers you so much, why do it? Yeah, it may have been a nuisance...but did it really prevent you from achieving your goal? It's not like everyone left the game and you can't get 2 other people to do Nyzul with so you can farm your base weapon. More often then not in this game, people seem to find ways to overcome the obstacles put forth and have moved on. Lotto NM's is by no means a permanent a roadblock...perhaps a series of speedbumps maybe?

Oh, and just as an aside.... Sunshine/Hotspells forecast in Volbow for Iceday (7:38-8:36 PM) as I was expecting.

[Rwolf]

I skimmed over that very long tirade and I'm ignoring most of it as it's rehashing and starting completely over, having tunnel vision over the word force. You are essentially having an argument regarding something I'm not stating. Tried to explain it, still focused on the belief that I'm stating something completely different.

Focusing on the main point I've been hearing from your posts. Just because something in a game "grindfest", a "hassle", etc doesn't mean it has to be. I agree people do them because the benefit outweighs what they view as negative. That's not proof a game mechanic is effective or good. It proves the reward is tantalizing enough to endure poor game mechanics.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted is a great example of desire versus game mechanic flaws. The consensus among the majority of the player base is that it is flawed. The game constricts a very narrow way to accomplish the goal of reach Floor 100 and even still it is luck based. Yet, players will still do it for the reward. Doesn't mean it is a great mechanic as is. Doesn't mean just because people attempt it that it's effective.

Stating that I must be a sadomasochist if I'm doing something in-game that is a hassle is unnecessary. The definition of such has nothing to do with the game and is simply provoking. I would like to have an actual discussion regarding the mechanics itself without personal attacks, but since there seems to be no desire to separate the two. I am not continuing as I don't want to wade through personal statements just to possibly hear actual point of view of game mechanics alone.

[Yinnyth]

I know my view is in the minority on this topic, but I and everyone in my static enjoyed neo nyzul back before we capped out on gear. We had a seemingly impossible challenge before us, and we failed. A lot. But we learned with each failure and got better and better. Eventually we got to a point where we would reach F100 2-3 times every 5 runs we did. Sometimes it decided to outright screw us by restricting WSs on F100, but what did we lose by timing out? You could argue we lost 30 minutes, but the truth is that the game entertained me for those 30 minutes. Exactly what the game was designed to do. Exactly what I play it for.

The difficulty a lot of MMO players have (and I'm not directing this at you, nor anyone else in particular) is they play because they want all the shinies. I'm in this same boat myself. I want the shinies. New shinies in the game keeps me interested in getting more shinies. The problem arises when we think we're entitled to those shinies. "Why does X person get shinies, and I don't?"

In Nyzul, we don't say they got their armor because they were more skilled than my group. No, we console ourselves by saying they just got rewarded by the luck-based system, and we're getting continually bad luck.

What most people fail to realize is how big a role skill plays in Nyzul. Yes, it can choose to outright screw you sometimes. But with a skilled group, a solid plan, and good communication between members, you can manage a 50% F100 rate. If you clear F100, everyone in the group gets 1 shiny guaranteed, plus 1-2 extras and an alex pouch. 8 shinies for one win for an average of 4 shinies per run. And you don't even have to farm up anything ahead of time- you get to just go in and knock it out.

Compare that to something like ADL. He can also choose to say "Nah, screw you guys- I'mma win this one", just like Nyzul can. A more skilled group is still only increasing their chances of success. But unlike Nyzul, you only get 1-3 shinies (1-2 marrow, 0-1 sagasinger). And unlike Nyzul, you have to farm up his pops before you even get the chance to try.

Is Nyzul perfect? No, and nothing ever will be. There will always be flaws to every system. Instead of blaming these flaws for the reason we don't have our shiny, we should learn to have a good time doing what we can do. Enjoy the company we keep. Share in their triumphs, and their failures. Is this not why we play an MMO instead of a single player or 1v1 game?

[RAIST]

wow Rwolf... In case you missed it....that post was not directed at you. The masochist part was a toungue-and-cheek reference to Waldrich's post--it wasn't an insult slung at you. Only part of it was in response to your posts, and it was addressing specific points of debate that were put forth.

I was covering the string of posts since last night and referencing older posts all the way back to the OP, and even discussed specific points in the OP. I just didn't see much point in going through and quoting every single post when I can just as easily make references to them as I went along. It wasn't a "tirade", and it wasn't tunnel vision over a word that was used. If anything, you are the one that is fixating on it. I even stated your intended meaning of the word was a moot point (regardless of how it actually sounded), the point of that post that you got upset over was the choices a player makes--which was a point you yourself made in that same post (even though it seemed to somewhat contradict an earlier statement in that post). But I guess you didn't get that point because you didn't read it?

Seems kind of odd to state you want to have a discussion but are passing judgement on posts without even reading the discussion....then start insulting participants you are in disagreement with. Not exactly being open to discussion, now is it?