Suggestion regarding March 27 enmity adjustments

[Phafi]

With the overall decrease to enmity from damage and the possibility of actual tanking returning, could the enmity of the spells Sleep, Sleep II, Dispel, Blind, Blind II, and Bind be reinstated so that NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN can return as options to compete with PLD?

Back at LV75, tanking on RDM/NIN was the highlight of my play time, and when it was nerfed with the increase to the level cap, it kind of felt like finding out that Santa wasn't real.

[Himrik]

Santa...isn't...real
RDM...isn't...supposed...to...tank

[Demon6324236]

RDM is supposed to melee, tanking was a bi-product of RDM meleeing due to the advantage of Fast Cast and Shadows together.

[Phafi]

i'm fairly sure i never meleed while tanking do to unnecessary TP feed

also @Himrik, if you watch the old AV strat video from a few years ago, they did in fact use a RDM as one of the tanks

[Himrik]

Few years ago, RDM was the pinnacle of bad game design.
When a game offers as mush as 20 jobs, you can't have one job that can cure, nuke, melee, tank, buff and debuff efficiently at the same time.

[Phafi]

and now it can done one of those slightly better than a white mage or scholar (enfeeble), and on all content, you either can forgo or manage without the +1 tier of paralyze, slow and dia. so why bother bringing one at all?

[ManaKing]

You could never do all of those things at the same time, since you can't do more than 1 thing at the same time. RDM can transition between multiple job roles with competency. I don't think you could call any of those functions efficiently compared to any specialist that did what they did, but better. The only exception to this being pinning and kiting mobs, and honestly if you think that's anything special then you probably think going to the bathroom for two hours is special as well.

Everyone should go back to having hate tools and having the ability to pull hate if they don't know what they are doing. And should be able to pull hate if that is their intention. That's what a hate system is. Managing your hate to manipulate mobs.

[Phafi]

You could never do all of those things at the same time, since you can't do more than 1 thing at the same time. RDM can transition between multiple job roles with competency. I don't think you could call any of those functions efficiently compared to any specialist that did what they did, but better. The only exception to this being pinning and kiting mobs, and honestly if you think that's anything special then you probably think going to the bathroom for two hours is special as well.

Everyone should go back to having hate tools and having the ability to pull hate if they don't know what they are doing. And should be able to pull hate if that is their intention. That's what a hate system is. Managing your hate to manipulate mobs.

hell, there's a video somewhere around (too lazy to go find it) of a blm/nin tanking byakko back at 75

[Himrik]

I don't think you could call any of those functions efficiently compared to any specialist that did what they did, but better. The only exception to this being pinning and kiting mobs, and honestly if you think that's anything special then you probably think going to the bathroom for two hours is special as well.

Everyone should go back to having hate tools and having the ability to pull hate if they don't know what they are doing. And should be able to pull hate if that is their intention. That's what a hate system is. Managing your hate to manipulate mobs.

You apparently forgot that RDM was a specialist back in the days of lvl 75. Debuff was his job, and buffing was pretty high too. Refresh has always been the best way to recover MP, whitout using your two only buff spot of having trouble positionning yourself. Since RDM could main heal a PT (And where frequently asked to), they certainly could Cure efficiently.

Every job shouldn't have a hate tool, non tanks should have abilities that pull hate as a drawback, not as a hate tool. The fact that RDM could tank means that they could build more hate than frontline jobs (Something even a PLD, the specialist tank, had a hard time doing), and survive direct assaults long enough for the PT to kill the mob.

Sorry to disagree, but soloing, even for two hours, is pretty special compared to other jobs, who just can't solo.
A good hate system shouldn't give you hate for dispelling nothing or casting sleep when the mob is immune to it.

[Zhronne]

Back at LV75, tanking on RDM/NIN was the highlight of my play time, and when it was nerfed with the increase to the level cap
It was nerfed before the level cap increase if I recall.
As fun (and especially efficient!) as it was, it was *never* meant to tank.
It was just a side effects of many things that SE underestimated, that produced that exact result.

I want to have this game balanced around jobs meant to tank, by giving them abilities and spells made specifically for the purpose of tanking.
Not some job who manages to do that even better than the others because of the side effect of the combination of certain other aspects.

[SpankWustler]

Back when those spells generated more enmity, Red Mage was a great tank for things that an absolute minimum number of people engaged or that the tank didn't engage for some reason. Against things that could be hit with things normally, there were far better options.

Other than stuff that is super-tanked by Paladins, I can't think of anything today that the tank doesn't engage other than the same level 75 content that is much easier now. So, I doubt changing the enmity of those spells back would actually change anything.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I can't think of anything today that the tank doesn't engage

Anything that the party hasn't proc'd on yet.

[Phafi]

It was nerfed before the level cap increase if I recall.

it was in the patch notes for the level 80 cap Visions of Abyssea update, i remember having to go level PLD because of this


You apparently forgot that RDM was a specialist back in the days of lvl 75. Debuff was his job, and buffing was pretty high too. Refresh has always been the best way to recover MP, whitout using your two only buff spot of having trouble positionning yourself. Since RDM could main heal a PT (And where frequently asked to), they certainly could Cure efficiently.

Every job shouldn't have a hate tool, non tanks should have abilities that pull hate as a drawback, not as a hate tool. The fact that RDM could tank means that they could build more hate than frontline jobs (Something even a PLD, the specialist tank, had a hard time doing), and survive direct assaults long enough for the PT to kill the mob.

Sorry to disagree, but soloing, even for two hours, is pretty special compared to other jobs, who just can't solo.



@italics: how many bad paladins did you regularly play with?

@not italics part: MP is not an issue anymore, due to the frequency of ghorn/daurd bards where you can get around +21/tick refresh without a rdm. whm af3+2 pants making your cure 4s cost like nothing. Phalanx II is the only real party targetable buff that rdm has over whm, and a sch can just accession/perpetuance phalanx I and hit six people instead of one for a longer duration that rdm's would have lasted. rdm is now only the best at enfeebles, which i mentioned earlier all content can be done without the higher tiers of slow/paralyze/dia/blind which you have to pick from anyway because the not 5/5 merits are ok for maybe ..slow, and a well geared whm should have no issue landing slow/para/addle on a target, as they can get their enfeebling skill damn near 500 if not actually 500 due to only needing 80 from light arts (puts you at 404, i'm sure a lot of people still have enfeebling merits, so 420 and enfeebling gear isn't hard to come by.) currently i see zero reason to bring a rdm to anything where you want to be efficient. so why try and stop rdm from getting back on the board in one category which also enables pld and nin to go back to their lv75 tanking ability.


Other than stuff that is super-tanked by Paladins, I can't think of anything today that the tank doesn't engage other than the same level 75 content that is much easier now. So, I doubt changing the enmity of those spells back would actually change anything.

I didn't engage things in Legion as if someone needed to stona me or something, they would end up getting destroyed by something if it was early enough in, also anything where you could freely swap between aegis and ochain and not care about the tp loss was fantastic (also the above situation, as well as a few solo ones)

with current content, i do not think anything would change as they will probably maintain their zerg only status (except for odin i guess). I would like for the ability to select between your tanks for future content. however, these adjustments i suggested, not only enable rdm to tank, it also opens up PLD/RDM and NIN/DRK again which are also hate machines.




Enmity Adjustments
...the enmity incurred in relation to the amount of HP cured, will be reduced. ... We are also making adjustments at the same time so that the enmity gains from Cure V are reduced.


the part in bold leaves me to believe that if in any significant amount, cure enmity is reduced, the only unchanged method of obtaining CE is through flash, and all it would take to eliminate the CE generated from flash (let's say with +50 enmity, which would be 180*1.5, so +270 CE as per Kaeko's tables) would be a hit for around 300 excluding the af3 neck and pants and foe sirvente. [check my math, it's not my forte, used [ CE Loss ] = 1800 x [ Damage Taken ] / [ Target Max HP ] where target max hp =1980~2k]

with damage and cures being slashed, PLD would probably need a reverse-tranquil heart trait for cures to be any decent if the enmity reduction of cures is even around half of that of damage. another thing could be to have atonement not apply to the damage reduction, but that just seems lopsided toward pld leaving no room for ninja or any other tank. putting the enmity of these spells back in would revive multiple ways to tank

/rant

[Himrik]

Too long to quote

I didn't play with bad PLD, I played with good DDs.

We're refering to "cap 75 era", when MP was an issue, when every BRD didn't have Empy/Relic and skills capped only around 400 with a pretty good stuff and max merits.

Now, I totally agree on the uselessness of RDM. But if RDM should be fixed, it's not on the tank side. Unique enfeebles and buffs is what RDM need.

On a side note, as sad as it is, I don't think anything can save PLD nowadays.

[Horadrim]

Santa...isn't...real
RDM...isn't...supposed...to...tank

Neither was Ninja. And the Japanese pitched a royal fit about NINs tanking for ages before it became a standard that SE embraced.



with damage and cures being slashed, PLD would probably need a reverse-tranquil heart trait for cures to be any decent if the enmity reduction of cures is even around half of that of damage. another thing could be to have atonement not apply to the damage reduction, but that just seems lopsided toward pld leaving no room for ninja or any other tank. putting the enmity of these spells back in would revive multiple ways to tank

/rant

I think that's the unspoken reality behind the information we've been given. They claim to be fixing PLD tanking and they are giving us a job which purportedly attempts to maintain hate in a very similar fashion -- the only reality can be that they are giving Paladin + Enmity Traits to go along with the changes to defense that will allow it to take less damage and loss less health.

The only real way Paladin will be able to work is if they get +Enmity sustain/accumulation traits -- and a lot of them. And it can't be Rune Fencer getting them for sub, or else we'll just see semi-Magic immune Ninja/Rune Fencers running around and Paladin will get left out in dust like it has been.

[Tummie]

The thing is, if you ask for those old enmity values to be reinstated, then BRDs will want the old values for mazurka to come back as well. Though it was a very useful and often used tactic, it was a bit unbalanced and needed an adjustment.