What if Maneuvers lasted longer than 1 minute?

[Zagen]

What if Maneuver's duration was extended to 5 minutes, 30 minutes, or even 1-2 hours.

The use of a Maneuver every 30 seconds (2 maneuver cycle) comes at the cost of around 6% damage potential (differs based on melee/ws gear).

The use of a Maneuver every 20 seconds (3 maneuver cycle) comes at the cost of around 9% damage potential (differs based on melee/ws gear).

Does increasing the damage potential 6~9% seem over powered?

Something to note this still puts PUP behind a BST in terms of DPS by around 20 damage with Mythic being on par/slightly edging ahead of BST.

[Nezha]

I do agree that this would be nice and since only the duration is increased you can still spam maneuvers every 10 seconds if you chose to, although overall this would decrease the tendency to overload overall which deemphasizes the need for cooldown and overload reduction gear which is likely the reason this hasn't been changed yet.

I unsure about the math about the mythic only putting PUP slightly ahead of BST given that the martial arts effect alone is the equivalent of ~15% haste, Kenkonken has a longer lasting aftermath duration than most mythics (incl. BST), Stringing Pummel also being one of the best WS because it is crit. based and has more chances for AM3 to proc based on hits, and the fact a hand-to-hand weapon stand above single wielded weapons as of current (and 2 handed weapons being above both). Personally I find I out-DD most jobs with Kenkonken (not incl. my automaton) save for Relic-Resolution WAR/SAMs or really well geared SAM since those jobs are made to deal damage.

I'm also unsure how you calculated the percentages for damage reduction due the the pet command delay of using maneuvers. I know it does inhibit us a bit, but I'm unsure on how significant it is. But please enlighten me because I'm not very good with gaming mechanics...

[Zagen]

I do agree it does reduce the overload chances based on how you happen to play and/or the event. When I was writing this out initially I thought about that and I realized that looking back on all things I've done on PUP I find that I don't overload unless I'm trying to maintain a constant double element and even then it's rare enough Cool Down prevents it. I guess this becomes more of a benefit if overload gear isn't used or the goal is locking 3 maneuvers when making the comparison at which point I would agree it would be a significant gain.


Personally I find I out-DD most jobs with Kenkonken save for Relic-Resolution WAR/SAMs, unless my pets damage is included.

Find better DDs there's no way a PUP even with mythic is beating traditional DDs who know what they're doing.

As to how I got my numbers, I used Motenten's PUP Spreadsheet. Can be found here (as well as other jobs) (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0A0wGYYRRdaZjdlNTdkNTEtMDMyYy00OTVmLWI4N2ItNDMwMDI1N2VkYWZk/edit)

I compared identical setups with the only difference being the timing of maneuver usage to get the damage increase percentages. I used the BST sheet with DA/STR axes and even Mythic/STR(no AM) to get my estimations.

Considering PUP has 0 ways to maintain AM3 I didn't bother factoring that into the math. That said if you factor in AM3 on PUP you'd have to compare BST with AM3 which benefits BST more due to ruinator gaining more from AM3.

The one thing PUP has going for it if Mythic AMs were to be considered, is the fact that it isn't giving up as much damage to trigger AM 3 as BST would. Also all Mythic AM3 have the same duration of 3 minutes (KKK AM 1/2 do get longer duration but that doesn't apply to 3).

[xiozen]

Find better DDs there's no way a PUP even with mythic is beating traditional DDs who know what they're doing.

The above statement alone discredits you in my eyes... I have partied with Nezha on quite a few occasions and witnessed his damage output with his lvl99 KKKs... and I'm jealous :P And even alliance/party members during said events and parties have constantly praised his dmg output, because consistently it has dealt more damage to the NMs we were fighting than traditional DDs... so (1) party with a very well geared Puppetmaster who uses a lvl99 KKK, then come back to the table with your opinion. Until then... try not to comment on something you haven't witnessed... your making half-***'d comments about something you assume to be correct and have no clue what your talking about.



Considering PUP has 0 ways to maintain AM3 I didn't bother factoring that into the math. That said if you factor in AM3 on PUP you'd have to compare BST with AM3 which benefits BST more due to ruinator gaining more from AM3. huh?...same as above... I refuse to waste anymore of my precious life, reading your comments 'nuff said.

[Zagen]

The above statement alone discredits you in my eyes... I have partied with Nezha on quite a few occasions and witnessed his damage output with his lvl99 KKKs... and I'm jealous :P And even alliance/party members during said events and parties have constantly praised his dmg output, because consistently it has dealt more damage to the NMs we were fighting than traditional DDs... so (1) party with a very well geared Puppetmaster who uses a lvl99 KKK, then come back to the table with your opinion. Until then... try not to comment on something you haven't witnessed... your making half-***'d comments about something you assume to be correct and have no clue what your talking about.


huh?...same as above... I refuse to waste anymore of my precious life, reading your comments 'nuff said.
I'm sorry math says otherwise.

Argue all you want that a PUP is awesome the damage potential just isn't there (except abyssea but then again at this point is that really an event to brag about?) when comparing it to equally geared accepted DDs.

Feel free to check out the spreadsheets I linked yourself if you don't believe me. However you'll find I'm right. about not being able to beat equally geared "accepted DD" jobs.

[Phafi]

i'd even settle for 3 minutes, but i like where OP is going with this.

[Nezha]

Before I digress to the damage capability of a experienced and well geared PUP, I want to restate I agree with extending the durations although I don't see it happen adsuming the theoretical math is correct, because 6-9% is a statically significant damage reductions, so thumbs up from me to OP.

As for your theoretical math which doesn't take EVERY factor into account, i still disagree, because in the end skill >>> gear in my opinion, which is a variable held constant in you're math... So if there is a BST out there that can out DD me in practice, I'd have yet to see it... I also rectified what I said earlier, meant to say that WAR/SAM, well geared/skilled SAMs still can out DD me because that have job traits and abilities intrinsic to the job to do so, where PUP does not but my damage is on par with pet included (assuming no outside buffs from other chars, just what the job/sub job combination can provide)...

Also i didn't quite understand what you meant by 'PUP has no way of maintaining AM3' because I have little problem with that, and something about Ruinator benefiting more from AM3...

(PS I know emotion can be lost in text, but I'm not intending for this to be a heated argument, I'm curious and interested in understanding your logic and theoretical numbers and am enjoying the conversation :) )

[Zagen]

for your theoretical math which doesn't take EVERY factor into account, i still disagree, because in the end skill >>> gear in my opinion, which is a variable held constant in you're math... So if there is a BST out there that can out DD me in practice, I'd have yet to see it... I also rectified what I said earlier, meant to say that WAR/SAM, well geared/skilled SAMs still can out DD me because that have job traits and abilities intrinsic to the job to do so, where PUP does not but my damage is on par with pet included (assuming no outside buffs from other chars, just what the job/sub job combination can provide)...

The assumption made when looking at math (including spreadsheets) is that everything is equal, including the skill of the person.

Edit:


Also i didn't quite understand what you meant by 'PUP has no way of maintaining AM3' because I have little problem with that, and something about Ruinator benefiting more from AM3...

You have to melee to 300 TP in order to gain AM3 (VW has wings but again that benefits BST more as they aren't wasting 3 Ruinators to start AM3).


(PS I know emotion can be lost in text, but I'm not intending for this to be a heated argument, I'm curious and interested in understanding your logic and theoretical numbers and am enjoying the conversation :) )

To be clear as am I :)

Edit 2:
I think I should point out when I have BST beating PUP for DPS that assumes no haste/dia2 from the puppet. The reason for excluding that is if I include buffs from the puppet it's only fair I'd include the damage from a BST's pet.

[Nezha]

From what I can tell from the spreadsheets, which im sure are far from perfect, PUP has a combined DPS of ~67 DPS units above BST... Maybe I'm missing something....

Also, we are arguing two different points, I am saying DPS only taking into account, what the job has intrinsically and gets from its subjob, food is okay, but brds, cors, VW TPwings, etc. I think is biased... PUP gets Haste naturally where BST and most other melee jobs don't which is already a boost in DPS by ~15%...

And man you reply fast haha

[Nezha]

Also how in the heck does BST get AM3 without using Primal Rend with 300 TP? If you get 300 TP for aftermaths you've gotta give up 3 WSs

[Nezha]

Also I think its fair to include BST pet damage, its intrinsic to the job... Thats why pet jobs have the potential to out DD many melee jobs...

[Zagen]

From what I can tell from the spreadsheets, which im sure are far from perfect, PUP has a combined DPS of ~67 DPS units above BST... Maybe I'm missing something....

Also, we are arguing two different points, I am saying DPS only taking into account, what the job has intrinsically and gets from its subjob, food is okay, but brds, cors, VW TPwings, etc. I think is biased... PUP gets Haste naturally where BST and most other melee jobs don't which is already a boost in DPS by ~15%...

And man you reply fast haha

If you're including haste from the puppet you should include dia 2. I don't disagree at that point PUP is far ahead of BST and even some of those DDs I inferred earlier.

The problem with the spreadsheets is they don't include pet damage.

I think you'll agree comparing pets Flacorr's damage surpasses that of a WHM frame possibly even the RDM frame too for content where the pet can deal damage regularly. So the question becomes is haste/dia2 enough to make up for Falcorr's damage. A familiared Falcorr has haste 10% on it, Triple Attack I (I assume 1 since the TH nerf), Crit Atk Bonus I (again assuming it was nerfed as well).

As to fast replies I did say I'm enjoying the discussion :D



Also how in the heck does BST get AM3 without using Primal Rend with 300 TP? If you get 300 TP for aftermaths you've gotta give up 3 WSs
You missed the part where I said VW (Voidwatch) which assumes a TP Wing is regained within 3 minutes (reasonable assumption imo) so BST only loses 1 Ruinator instead of 3.

[Nezha]

Hmm i guess this is where difference in skill comes in because I use all pets interchangably, I can switch between any two in less than five seconds, could be faster but there is a delay when adding and removing attachments which is annoying, and is why i posted something about it... But anyways, I usually switch between WHM and RNG frames, only buff and cure with WHM when I need it, so you'd be comparing falcorr damage against ranger frame and hasted master although I'm sure you'd need to take per command delays into account...

More on that: my theory is if puppetmaster could use all its pets at once it'd be unstoppable, so the next closest thing is being able to switch between them on command...

[Nezha]

And still in VW PUP would lose only 1 SP since you instantly get 300 TP... So no different than BST there and AM3 benefits Stringing Pummel more because number of hits it has gives a higher chances of procing DA/TA overall (maxing at 8 hits ofc), also our strongest weapon skill and mythic weapon skill are the same, so ruinator doesn't get the 30% damage boost SP does.

[Zagen]

Hmm i guess this is where difference in skill comes in because I use all pets interchangably, I can switch between any two in less than five seconds, could be faster but there is a delay when adding and removing attachments which is annoying, and is why i posted something about it... But anyways, I usually switch between WHM and RNG frames, only buff and cure with WHM when I need it, so you'd be comparing falcorr damage against ranger frame and hasted master although I'm sure you'd need to take per command delays into account...

More on that: my theory is if puppetmaster could use all its pets at once it'd be unstoppable, so the next closest thing is being able to switch between them on command...

5 seconds seems a bit fast for swapping attachments even then you're not factoring in the additional 2 second JA delays from activate/deactivate/Repair(if Dues was used).


And still in VW PUP would lose only 1 SP since you instantly get 300 TP... So no different than BST there and AM3 benefits Stringing Pummel more because number of hits it has gives a higher chances of procing DA/TA overall (maxing at 8 hits ofc), also our strongest weapon skill and mythic weapon skill are the same, so ruinator doesn't get the 30% damage boost SP does.
Actually PUP loses nothing in the context of VW since Stringing Pummel is the AM trigger WS.

Ruinator is 4 +1 hit (assumes /DNC) allowing for 2-3 chances to proc. 100% STR mod. Attack bonus in the range of 35%. Much better WS gear.

Even with the 30% damage bonus Stringing Pummel doesn't touch Ruinator's damage. It's the melee phase that helps PUP overcome the WS damage loss.

When factoring 99 Mythic AM3 Up from TP Wing PUP wins because of the damage lost by using Primal Rend until getting into the 2 to 3 Maneuver cycles at which point PUP is slightly ahead to on par.

I think that's fair considering the work involved in making a Mythic. Even if the Maneuver duration was extended I'd still think it's fair as we're talking Mythic realm only before that PUP would be behind BST.

[Nezha]

It may seem fast, but it is true... I urge you to come to my server if you want see pet switch in action, you name any pet and ill switch to it with all necessary attachments in under 5. I've played no other job for the past 7 years, so I know it inside out...

I agree its much easier to gear 100% STR mod, but Stringing Pummel damage +30% not touching Ruinator damage seems like stretch to say the least... But of course idk the theoretical numbers, but in practice my SPs are in 3-4k range outside with only food and depending on AM3 (which makes SP 6+ 1~2 hits; with 95% chance of DA procing on at least one of the hits)

But fair enough, I still think a experienced/well geared PUP w/o Mythic will out-DD a BST in practice, but thats based on what I've seen over past 7 years and not spreadsheets, so gotta take it with grain of salt I guess.

In the end, they are both great jobs, but what shys me away from playing BST is lack of control when multiple mobs are fighting the pet... Which I think needs to be addressed...

[Zagen]

It man seem fast, but it is true... I urge you to come to my server if you want see pet switch in action, you name any pet and ill switch to it with all necessary attachments in under 5. I've played no other job for the past 7 years, so I know it inside out...
Sorry if it came off that I didn't believe you, it doesn't sound impossible to me. It probably seems fast because I don't play PUP like that at the moment. I'll be giving it a shot though as it sounds like a fun way to play PUP.

[Nezha]

Puppetmaster Tip#1: The Law of Elemental Capacities:

The rule of thumb for interchanging between pets is knowing that:

1) BLM RDM WHM only differ by dark/light elemental capacities

2) PLD RNG only differ by wind and earth (also water (by 2) fire (by 1) and thunder (by 1) slightly, but this shouldn't be much of an issues as far as what is NEEDED for the pet to perform its role properly)

3) If you want to switch between a melee and mage automaton, say WHM and RNG:

-Gear RNG pet with attachments you'd use for WHM (filling from the bottom)

-Then switch to WHM and add attachments you'd use for RNG

-Leave 1~3 upper left hand attachment slots for attachments that (would upset the balance that would allow head/frame to be switched without changing any attachments) need to be added/removed for quick pet switch.

Hopefully if the delay between adding and removing attachments is removed, switching between any two pets will be even faster, so please like and reply to that post to bring it to the DEVs attention! Thanks! Cheers to all my fellow puppetmasters!

[Dohati]

why are over half of this threads responses about whether pup sucks or not? not relevant.

[Zagen]

why are over half of this threads responses about whether pup sucks or not? not relevant.
Those posts are about PUP's current damage potential as well as how it's used. The OP talks about extending the duration of maneuvers which would further increases PUP's damage potential as well as potentially changes how it's used, so how are they not relevant?

The irony in your post made me smile at least :)

[hideka]

i dont care what you are. out dpsing a 99 kenkonken is incredibly hard. it doesnt matter who what where when why or how.

[nyheen]

Puppetmaster Tip#1: The Law of Elemental Capacities:

The rule of thumb for interchanging between pets is knowing that:

1) BLM RDM WHM only differ by dark/light elemental capacities

2) PLD RNG only differ by wind and earth (also water (by 2) fire (by 1) and thunder (by 1) slightly, but this shouldn't be much of an issues as far as what is NEEDED for the pet to perform its role properly)

3) If you want to switch between a melee and mage automaton, say WHM and RNG:

-Gear RNG pet with attachments you'd use for WHM (filling from the bottom)

-Then switch to WHM and add attachments you'd use for RNG

-Leave 1~3 upper left hand attachment slots for attachments that (would upset the balance that would allow head/frame to be switched without changing any attachments) need to be added/removed for quick pet switch.

Hopefully if the delay between adding and removing attachments is removed, switching between any two pets will be even faster, so please like and reply to that post to bring it to the DEVs attention! Thanks! Cheers to all my fellow puppetmasters!


this is very useful but i end up learning about this years ago. but it nice way to change quickly:)

[Nezha]

It's not intended for a more experienced PUP like you. It's to share the wealth of knowledge from my playing this job for 7 years with those who might find it useful and to redirect people to my other related post that I think would improve our quality of life as Puppetmasters!

[Dohati]

Those posts are about PUP's current damage potential as well as how it's used. The OP talks about extending the duration of maneuvers which would further increases PUP's damage potential as well as potentially changes how it's used, so how are they not relevant?

The irony in your post made me smile at least :)

if pup sucks, this will help pup suck less. if pup doesn't suck, this adjustment isn't going to make everyone only bring pup as DD for their events, therefore... not a factor.

[Zagen]

i dont care what you are. out dpsing a 99 kenkonken is incredibly hard. it doesnt matter who what where when why or how.

Making such a broad statement is terrible because of how wrong it becomes without limiting the context.

For example:

In solo situations out DPSing a 99 Kenkonken PUP is hard to do.

That statement is accurate. However something like this is not:

In VW or Legion out DPSing a 99 Kenkonken PUP is hard to do.

The fact is 2 hand DDs gain much more from being buffed than a PUP does currently
.

if pup sucks, this will help pup suck less. if pup doesn't suck, this adjustment isn't going to make everyone only bring pup as DD for their events, therefore... not a factor.
Not exactly, the point was to see how powerful PUP is now in order to see if my initial statements were truly accurate about how powerful the idea would make PUP to see if it becomes a contender.

Edit: Maybe this will make it more relevant:
Event: NNI
Buffs: Haste, Embrava, Adloquium
No Maneuvers: 60~ DPS below a DRK
2 Maneuver Cycle: 90~ DPS below DRK
3 Maneuver Cycle: 100~ DPS below DRK

Disclaimer: varies based on gear
Hopefully this gives an idea within context that is more relevant than soloing. I mean instead of another DRK you could bring a PUP with WHM frame that's locked into Light/Dark/Water to ensure cures and buffs go on whom ever is near by when the puppet is deployed.

[Aljo]

With the release of Rune Fencer, they introduced the rune system which functions pretty much exactly like maneuvers, yet they get a 5 minute duration. Devs if you see this just give us the same duration for maneuvers.

[Kristal]

With the release of Rune Fencer, they introduced the rune system which functions pretty much exactly like maneuvers, yet they get a 5 minute duration. Devs if you see this just give us the same duration for maneuvers.

I was going to make almost the exact same comment. Two almost identical systems, but
* Maneuvers last 1 min, Runes 5 min
* Maneuvers lock an equipment slot, Runes do not
* Maneuvers have the risk of self-imposed debuff (overload), Runes do not
* Maneuvers have a good chance of lasting the entire duration, Runes are consumed like candy.