which weapons to dual wield

[Protey]

trying to figure out what is the best weapons to dual wield. could dual wield relics for that +80 attack, or could have relic and a multi-hit or double attack sub weapon. anyone done the math for what would have best damage output? i know it is going to be somewhat mob dependent.

[Demon6324236]

Excalibur+STR Shikargar wins in almost all cases for most DPS. If you have crit bonus then Almace+STR Shikargar starts to pull ahead, this is assuming optimum gear though, Almace is easier to gear for and easier to obtain than Excalibur is. Multi-hit weapons are not to good for RDM these days so far as I know but I could be wrong, and the DA sword is quite bad. If you do the math you get the same % in extra delay as you get % in DA, which means your still basically attacking the same amount of times on average, but with a weaker sword and no other statistical bonus.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Onion Knife + Onion Dagger

/closethread

[saevel]

Excal + STR Sword is the absolute "best" though Almace + STR Sword is damn near the same. The difference between them primarily stems from gear access. RDM can get tons of STR / MND gear for Req / KoTR but has somewhat limited DEX options for CDC.

[Protey]

Excalibur+STR Shikargar wins in almost all cases for most DPS. If you have crit bonus then Almace+STR Shikargar starts to pull ahead, this is assuming optimum gear though, Almace is easier to gear for and easier to obtain than Excalibur is. Multi-hit weapons are not to good for RDM these days so far as I know but I could be wrong, and the DA sword is quite bad. If you do the math you get the same % in extra delay as you get % in DA, which means your still basically attacking the same amount of times on average, but with a weaker sword and no other statistical bonus.

wouldn't mandau outperform excalibur?

[Demon6324236]

It is close but no, dagger lacks Req, which dominates on lower defense mobs, on higher defense mobs they are about the same, but so far as I know Excalibur still pulls ahead a little bit. In all honesty the best possible weapon combo is Excalibur 99+Mandau 99 according to spreadsheets, due to Mandau's very high DPS even without the +40 Attack on it due to it being in your off-hand. But it seems a bit out of place to say one should make two 99 relics for a DD who will receive little credit. I myself am making a Mandau currently to go with my Excalibur, and believe it is worth it, however, it is up to you to choose how much you want to pursue the top of the line gear for RDM, because the difference between STR Shikargar and Mandau in your offhand is not large enough for most to bother with that investment I believe.

[Protey]

thanks, i have excalibur and will do offhand mandau as well. i just thought the 60% str mod 4? hit mercy stroke would outperform KoR (or any other sword WS ftm).

[ManaKing]

Single Hit. Animations lie.

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So are you going to use Enspells with that Mandau or still hold off for Excal procs? Daggers are the better weapons for Enspell damage, but you'll be lowering you total delay, so you'll also be putting a slant on your Excalibur frequency.

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I still like Ephemeron the best for offhand. Makes for higher Store TP builds.

[Demon6324236]

I would mention Ephemeron if it were obtainable and if the spreadsheet could accurately rate it, but seeing as neither of those two are the case seeing as it comes from the least common Sky VWNM with an incredibly low drop rate as well as the spreadsheet not having the ability to calculate the TP drain effects, it seems better to leave it unmentioned. I still think it could be used to great effect as well though if it is ever made easier to actually get your hands on.

As for MS vs KoR, they are about the same in damage in all honesty, KoR has 40% STR and 40% MND instead of 60% STR but much of RDM's best STR gear also has MND on it, Morrigan's Head & Body as well as Fea's Feet and Rubeus Legs all are examples of that. The fTP is the same for both, but the DMG on Excalibur is much higher, so I am fairly sure so far as just WSs go, KoR wins, however Mercy has a much better aftermath, 5% crit rate is much better than a worthless 10 Regen.

[Doombringer]

i was under the impression that ephemeron ended up being a trap because of the low low proc rate of it's added effect.

i admit i got all excited for it too when it was announced. i saw the vid of that pally wsing back to back with just a drain in between and thought, game changer. but, while the strength of the effect held up, supposedly the proc rate did not.

though i guess if any job needs 3% haste on a weapon, it's RDM. and if you're already not using enspell for excaliburs sake, that removes that conflict for ephemeron as well (though i really dunno how it's added effect and enspell interact anyway)

but when a str shikargar is so simple, consistent, and attainable, it's hard to get excited about ephemeron maybe not being junk.

[Demon6324236]

The one time I saw someone with it, I was out in Abyssea-Uleg when doin the Ironclad for seals. A BLU had it and we teamed up, on both the Ironclad and the mobs for pop items it seemed to proc 10~20% of the time, mind you I was eyeballing it but it was definitely procing a lot. Also the numbers were quite high, often 60~80 TP on each proc, so I assume it is good, but the main problem with really testing it out myself is that its so hard to get.

[ManaKing]

It's good, it's just hard to get. I've talked to a couple people that have them and the potency of the drain is basically Absorb-TP on hit and the rate is somewhere around 10%.

Positive side is that Req can use extra TP to reduce it's damage penalty, so at least you aren't wasting excess TP. If you're /DNC (which seems to be all i sub anymore) you can redistribute it to things like Haste Sambas.

It's still my offhand goal because I don't see anything else that is a significantly better offhand for an Excalibur. I'm not sure if the additional affect can go off during WSs, since some Pulse Weapons do, and I didn't think of that when I was talking to the person. But, if it can, then that would be an extra bonus.

[Demon6324236]

If you're /DNC (which seems to be all i sub anymore) you can redistribute it to things like Haste Sambas.Sambas work just like enspells sadly, if you use one you lose the other, so in this case TP drain would probably be lost to Haste Samba, so thats not really a use for it. However, the effect so far as I know is quite a bit better than Absorb-TP, there are screenshots of even draining 80 or 90, so it is similar yet much more potent than the Absorb spell.

[Crimson_Slasher]

For those on servers where flame geodes are through the roof in prices, its not optimal, but theres always aluh Jambiya, it loses 1 str and a small chunk of attack, the lower delay and damage kinda balance eachother a bit, but atleast for crit ws (like CDC) it adds 3% damage which isnt unwelcome either.

[Demon6324236]

Yeah that dagger is kinda the middle ground, its a good offhands for all weapons, best for Mandau I believe, but there are betters for the other weapons if you are more serious. Admittedly though, no matter the price of Fire Geodes, if you are willing to spend 100Mil+ on a relic, you can afford a Fire Sword. :P

[Crimson_Slasher]

True, i was more looking to the sort making MND/STR mainhand weapons(Requiescat) or Almace, and wanting to save a few bucks, or not having quite enough to foot the bill for the offhander. For those elite who want the big bucks toys, mandau and str shikargar are great combinations, however we should keep the semi-casual and less hardcore in mind with our advice too. Lest we become seen as condesending. Not that we are behaving that way, but we cant exclude other players who come here for information and are met with rather, seemingly insurmountable goals.

[Demon6324236]

Right, for the more easily obtainable gear like Almace, that dagger is the best thing you can pick up for your offhand without going through to much trouble or spending a few million while doing annoying trials. It all depends how far you are willing to go on it. The absolute best is Almace+Oneiros, Mandau+Aluh, and Excalibur+Mandau, but Aluh is the offhand that works for basically everything, it works well with KoR & MS, the Attack helps Req, the low delay with nice damage is good DPS, and the crit damage helps CDC quite a bit. STR Shikargar wins sometimes, but it is more expensive and takes a lot more work because of it involving fire trials, or even trials at all, where as Aluh can be bought off the AH for 1 Mil, or gotten if you go after the feet from the NM that drops it. Those are the basic weapons though, if you can not get an Emp or Relic, STR Shikargar or Aluh are good for your main hand, but you probably want both of them since Aluh is Rare and STR is the only other good offensive weapon for RDM that works well in most situations.

I do agree though, its not just about the best, I myself though have been so focused on the best as of late I have found it harder to think of decent gear or average gear and put them together as easily, so if I am being somewhat condescending I do apologize.

[Crimson_Slasher]

You were entirely fine, i just wanted to put some other thoughts because we get a lot of reads (even if it is mostly just us here.) And i felt someone needed to keep an eye out for the little guys too. Nobody here has come off with that rude arrogant attitude that used to be present in our more heated debates here on the rdm forums. Again just wanted to make sure someone was thinking middle ground too!

[ManaKing]

It's entirely possible to miss things like Oneiros Knife or Ephemeron because almost no one has them. 'insurmountable goals' are even more 'insurmountable' when you don't know they even exist. I'd always rather have terrible goals instead of nothing to do...sitting in PJ....

The other issue is also that most of the good offhand's differences are flavoring, preference, or situational. The perfect example is the Sanus Ensis. It's a really well rounded offhand, but it is by no means the best DPS. It's technically not even the best single hand healing piece either unless you are specifically only caring about self healing. That goes to the Tefnut Wand. But you wouldn't pick anything else if you were looking for a good balance between DPS and Healing.


Sambas work just like enspells sadly, if you use one you lose the other, so in this case TP drain would probably be lost to Haste Samba, so thats not really a use for it.

Put on your Excalibur and Twilight Knife and use Haste Samba. They both still work. Sambas are the lowest priority additional affects, even under weapon additional affects. It's one of the reasons I switched over to RDM/DNC from RDM/NIN.

It's the whole reason that the thread about Enlight/Enspells + Excal thread blew up. People got offended when Camate basically said, we could make having an Excalibur better, but we aren't going to. SE can set their additional affects to whatever priority they want, they just don't.

[Protey]

@ManaKing wondering why you'd use /dnc over /nin. You use 35% TP and get 5% haste. /nin you don't have to use TP and you get 10% more dual wield than you would with /dnc. or are you just doing it so you can cure with tp?

[ManaKing]

@ManaKing wondering why you'd use /dnc over /nin. You use 35% TP and get 5% haste. /nin you don't have to use TP and you get 10% more dual wield than you would with /dnc. or are you just doing it so you can cure with tp?


From a DPS standpoint, 5% Job Haste isn't better than 10 Dual wield. That you have to spend TP to get it as compared to getting it for free makes it that much worse. Dual Wield II is only 15% Dual Wield, but that also means that you get more TP out of Store TP and Double Attack. I'd much rather have Dual Wield III, but at least there are small positives to go with the negatives. The larger reason I use /DNC is for the utility.

What I really like about /DNC is having access to Esuna (Healing Waltz), Stun(Violent Flourish), and Accuracy Bonus I. Box Step + Dia III is nice in plenty of situations and Reverse Flourish isn't bad either. You can also use an Excalibur and Haste Samba with no complications.


/NIN would immediately go back to the norm for me if /NIN had access to Innin. Almace would be used. Nukes would make mobs extra crispy. Life would be good. But, as with most things, SE balances as it sees fit.