Cuauhtli/Mextli, Ocelomeh/Toci's, Athos, and Thaumas sets!

[Demon6324236]

Please add RDM to Cuauhtli/Mextli, Ocelomeh/Toci's, Athos, and Thaumas sets. It is a job made to be a hybrid between a mage and a melee job. PUP and BST are both featured on 2 out of 3 sets from the same events as these, PUP is on the Light DD and Mage sets, while BST is featured on the Light and Heavy DD sets. I think it is fair for RDM to get that sort of treatment, meaning RDM getting access to Anhur/Mex, Heka/Toci, Rubeus/Athos, and Nares/Thaumas. Currently in optimum gear a RDM does about 60% of the melee damage a BLU does, while both jobs are hybrids of a similar nature.

Since SoA is very close, I would like RDM to get access to this gear to help the job be more productive close up. If nothing else, I would like to be included on new light DD sets coming with SoA, many RDMs fear RUN will be filling even more of our roles, and without this kind of gear it will surely surpass our front line uses. So please add RDM to these types of sets, and perhaps even the previously listed sets, otherwise the jobs front line powers will remain sub-par and jobs like BLU and SCH will keep it unneeded and sub-par in almost all situations.

Healing was made better by the changes to Healing Magic, or rather, Cures I through IV. Nuking seems to be getting adjusted in the future, putting it more on par with melee damage, which will again help RDM. The 1-handed adjustments should help RDM as well, same as these other two. However, RDM currently has a single flaw when it comes to melee that it does not in the other two fields, gear. RDM has access to all of the best gear for cures and nuking that are not from a JSE set like the Emp+2 gear, but its melee gear is horrid by compare to other jobs, so improve this one area, and with the other adjustments RDM should be a powerful job again.

RDM is supposed to be the 'Jack of all Trades' but master of none, currently, we are master of none, but we are not as good at melee as we should be, which hurts us more than people seem to realize. People can argue that RDM should not melee, but there is a simple fact those people seem to forget, melee is what makes RDM different than SCH, it is what separates the two more than anything else. This request for the Cuauhtli/Mextli, Ocelomeh/Toci's, Athos, and Thaumas sets is a request I believe would put RDM in a few more parties, and give it a bit more use than it sees right now, as well as helping it live up to its name as a Jack of all Trades.

[Metaking]

well athos i could see possibly even mex, toci might be pushing it, but no job is on 2 nni gear sets to my knowledge, also even with this gear rdm simply doesn't have enough sword or dagger skill to make it a threat. Retolling enspells dmg would help yall alot, and if se let you cast temper on others it would get you more invites than this.

[Demon6324236]

well athos i could see possibly even mex, toci might be pushing it, but no job is on 2 nni gear sets to my knowledge, also even with this gear rdm simply doesn't have enough sword or dagger skill to make it a threat. Retolling enspells dmg would help yall alot, and if se let you cast temper on others it would get you more invites than this.That it would put RDM back as a buffer who does buff cycles. RDM is supposed to be a Jack of all Trades, not a back line cycle buffer spamming Temper & Haste on others. As for the gear specifics, you are partially accurate, its really that BST and PUP are on the early VW sets, such as Mex and Toci, where as Athos and Thaumas have no double jobs. I agree that adjusting Enspells would help as well, but I think gear is what holds RDM back the most. Look at RDM's best TP set versus what any other light DD wears, its very unbalanced. Even were RDM given access to what I am asking for it would be no threat to the other DDs in terms of raw power, but it would gain a lot more use as a DD who can do support as well.

The other single handed or light DD jobs are MNK, THF, BST, NIN, BLU, and DNC. MNK is a badass, it hangs out with the heavy DDs in most events, only things like Legion really drag it down so far as I know. THF is mainly used for TH, a problem that has never really been addressed by SE, but its DD power is not that bad in the end thanks to native DW allowing for /WAR. BST has no native DW like other jobs, but has Ruinator, which is powerful enough to kick it up a notch and make it a strong job still even if it can not /WAR, not to mention a pet and heavy DD gear. NIN has the highest native DW, tons of DW gear, and obviously has /WAR. BLU has native DW if it sets it through spells, allowing for /WAR, as well as support abilities or other offensive traits it can set. DNC has the ability to force-crit WSs, tons of DW just like NIN, a lot of DW gear, can /WAR, and has offensive support as well as defensive support.

By compare to all of that, RDM has no native DW, no amazing WS to make up for the lack of DW unless the mob has low enough defense for Req to deal amazing numbers, and a massive lack of gear other jobs have. Even if RDM was given these things, it would lack things these other jobs have, which is either a form of DW, or in the case of BST, a 100% STR WS with tons of STR, Attack, and WS% gear. RDM with this gear however would be much closer to BLU on the DD radar, it would become a bit more viable for a supporting DD. Right now a BLU crushes a RDM as a supportive DD because it can set heals while dealing much more damage.

Sword and Dagger skill are low, but that is made up by Composure for the Accuracy, and the Attack is obviously lower because of it, but thats part of the idea, I am not asking for RDM to out do other DDs, but to keep up a bit more. Jack of all Trades but the master of nothing. I want our DD to be good, but not the best, somewhat like how our Healing is, we can not beat WHM, we are not to far behind SCH if you exclude Regen, and we are above PLD. That is similar to how we should be with DDs, we should not compare to heavy DDs, we should not beat light DDs, but we should be close behind, not 50~70% of their damage.

[Metaking]

hmmm i think your misinformed somewhere even if you got all the gear blu can use your probably still stick with dnc or nin sub for dw2/3 and including tempers 20% double attack and dia 3 (-15%def) your up against a blus with war sub dw 3 double(10%) and triple attack(5%) triumphant roar (+15%attack) Berserk (+25% attack) warcry(attack bonus+?%) attack bonus 1(+10 base attack) aggressor (acc+) and frightful roar(-10%def[could have said turbillion and its -33%def or Bilgestorm and its -25% but those 2 spells have.... issues), you would not be in even remotely the same league, and that's not to mention the difference in weapon skill ranks >.>;. now im not saying this is a bad idea hell i think blu and rdm both have gear the other should get, i mean as is, a whm in full DD gear will stomp a rdm and that's is wrong, no way a whm should be a better dd than rdm <.<

[Fermion]

Right now a BLU crushes a RDM as a supportive DD because it can set heals while dealing much more damage.

Let's say a RDM's melee was buffed to be equal to BLU's. How would this change the job exactly? I'm not trolling you, I'm genuinely curious. In its current form, this game seems to have 3 distinct modes: mowing through EP, DC mobs, trying to survive vicious overpowered supermobs, or doing events heavily reliant on temps.

To me it seems that mowing through EP, DC mobs make the most sense to focus on for this conversation. Accuracy should be capped in those situations (except for that rare evasive THF or NIN mob), as well as close to capped haste as well. With Dia III, food and dispel (if necessary) attack shouldn't be too shabby either. You have temper, enspells, and decent weaponskill selections for these particular mobs, so I don't understand why RDM melee gets such a bad wrap. The elemental magic update is just icing on the cake. RDM also has top notch survivability and, since the healing update, absolutely decimates any healing capabilities that DNC or /dnc can put out.

Honestly, if I knew a good melee RDM, they'd be one of my first choices for EP, DC spam.

I think the problem is our event selection. I'm so sick of EP, DC mobs. If we get back to IT, I believe RDM will shine again. Imagine if NNI were VT - IT+ mobs. A RDM would be invaluable there. RDM could support a small roaming DD team with cures, enfeebles, buffs, and versatile (nuking, slashing, piercing) damage. BLU would be out of mp very quickly if they tried the same thing. A SCH's strategems wouldn't allow them to nuke and support simultaneously. A WHM wouldn't offer up as much damage or damage versatility, or endurance. DNC isn't suited for that kind of support, small heals + long recasts would fail on IT mobs with DDs in {Full attack!} mode. PUP lacks the consistency to cast what needs to be cast when it needs to be cast. And no other job is even worth mentioning for this role because their healing is grossly underpowered for this task.

So maybe if we had more VT - IT+ events, 4xDD (WAR, SAM, DRK, DRG, MNK), 2xRDM parties will become a staple. The beauty of this is that every job will have a place in certain party configurations. NINs, DNCs, THFs, PUPs BLUs and PLDs could roll with BRDs, SMNs, CORs since they won't need as much healing, and with those support jobs buffs, their damage potential will be greatly increased. BLMs and SCHs synergize very well, even moreso after the Magic update (sleepga, bindga, graviga, breakga will work nicely with ja and ga spells) and also emergency heals and na spells when needed. 6xBST could roam solo and cover more ground. WHM would pretty much ensure victory at the boss. I think that about covers every job.

But as Dennis Miller said, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong".

[Crimson_Slasher]

While I know there is a gap between RDM and BLU in damage output, you cant solely count rdm out either. Granted rdm does suffer some on their ws selection, but if one has the time (and money) to invest, im sure rdm can put up quite the fight too. Something i dont see a lot of RDMs using is Daggers. Yes, i know, evisceration is pretty "eh" and we have almace and excalibur and murgelis weapons... I myself enjoy my almace (even if im having issue stacking dex and attractive stats in the same slots, looking at you feet!)

But we cant forget Mandau and Mercy stroke (Or extenterator i suppose) for dagger use. The same str Shikargar we use for almace can similarly benefit both of these weaponskills for one, especially mercy stroke. We dont have the best, but still have LOTS of str gear (Heafoc mitts, Rubeus pants, Morrigans+1 head/feet/body) and with Gain Str, we can likely put some decent numbers on the table.

Granted, yes, this is a Relic weapon, but that really seems to be sum of all evils in rdm meleeing, gear related greviences. Sure some traits would be nice, but with gain str we can stack 25 more str. Dia cuts into attack defficiencies, Self haste that needs to be refreshed less often than any other's (sans sch maybe?) and phalanx and all of the stoneskin gear for mitigation, topped off with ice/shock spikes to further enhance that. Enspells, Temper, it covers a good chunk of the traits we want (not that more isnt welcome mind you!) but i think we have come a long way from what we used to be.

Just others have come further. But i still support this, wholeheartedly, because if pup can be on Heka and Toci, why cant we? True blu is stuck on Toci with no Heka, but Bst gets Meikira and Toci too. And i dont forsee rdm being on Meikira/Heka (even if that would be really funny/cool in my book, that rabbit head would offer a lot of Umph! on Mercy stroke for those with!) But im skeptical if we will be allowed this. I still wanna see us added to Hecatomb, that too would sure up a lot of CDC and Str ws woes too.

[saevel]

/Sigh

We've been over this many times before.

RDM's primary issue is not lack of skill or WS selection. Skill over C is meaningless these days and RDM has access to the two best sword WS's (Req / CDC) and the two best Dagger WS's (MS / Exten). Not having Sang Blade is something the devs f*cked up but that WS wouldn't deal more then the current assortment and RDM can self-heal just fine.

RDM's melee issues break down into two parts.

First being the complete lack of some form of native DW or Attack Boost. Having Naitive DW would allow for /WAR usage, having some form of attack boost with /NIN would be perfectly fine. Temper @500 is +20% DA, that's more then enough to compensate for not having /WAR's DA.

Now the real kick in the nuts is gear access. RDM simply doesn't have access to enough high end melee gear, it's only on the weird cast off pieces that people rarely actually use for melee. Without access to things like Athos / Toci's RDM is forced to use really weak gear to hit the haste cap which when combined with a lack of attack boost ends up with it doing sh!t damage.

Now there is a catch, RDM does have access to Dia III and 800+ Cure IV's along with a near infinite supply of MP and self haste / defensive spells. This makes RDM an extremely survivable "melee" (since we're discussing this aspect). RDM is the melee you can send off without any form of support and it'll do just fine on it's own. Dia III is the equivalent of a 17.6% attack boost so your attack isn't that bad and enspells allow for targeted magical damage that bypass's melee defense and -PDT. RDM also has access to the best Requiescat gear, literally tons and tons of MND + STR + attack.

The thing is that BLU has access to such a large assortment of utility spells like Sudden Lunge, Dream Flower and such that it can functionally do the same thing as RDM and do it while dealing more damage. SE basically super buffed BLU's utility set by allowing them to go full DD /WAR while maintaining all of their powerful tools.

*Note*

Requiescat can be incredibly, stupidly powerful in the right situation with the right gear. It's six hits while dual wielding and 1.0 fTP per hit. With gorget / belt your looking at 1.2 fTP for a total potential of 7.2 FTP, 1 DA makes it 8.4. 100% MND would suck on almost any other job except RDM which has MND gear up the wazoo. The kicker is the -20% attack which makes this WS nearly useless on anything stronger then a VT monster, which is where CDC would come in anyway. The WS completely ignores PDT which is incredibly powerful. All this combined makes it a solid WS for trash mobs (what a RDM would be fighting anyway) and an incredibly WS for anything with special defenses, which the most annoying monsters have.

[Demon6324236]

hmmm i think your misinformed somewhere even if you got all the gear blu can use your probably still stick with dnc or nin sub for dw2/3 and including tempers 20% double attack and dia 3 (-15%def) your up against a blus with war sub dw 3 double(10%) and triple attack(5%) triumphant roar (+15%attack) Berserk (+25% attack) warcry(attack bonus+?%) attack bonus 1(+10 base attack) aggressor (acc+) and frightful roar(-10%def[could have said turbillion and its -33%def or Bilgestorm and its -25% but those 2 spells have.... issues), you would not be in even remotely the same league, and that's not to mention the difference in weapon skill ranks >.>;.Well thats part of my point, there is that massive gap, this would serve to make that gap smaller while keeping the other jobs ahead of RDM in the end. As you pointed out, it would not make RDM better than BLU in overall DD, but RDM would still keep the advantage in how much overall support it could offer, even though it would still lack things like stuns that can be very helpful in some situations. Basically, it would become situationally better than BLU while still offering some nice damage, where as now its situationally better support but the damage is quite a bit lower.


Let's say a RDM's melee was buffed to be equal to BLU's. How would this change the job exactly?It seems as though you mostly answered your question. RDM would become more useful as a nice DD who can offer more sustained support, and in some cases better support. Events like Meebles are good for RDM, same with Salvage, but in those cases your damage is still small enough people would rather take a SCH for better support on the other DDs. This would simply help our DD enough to put us on the front lines more often because our damage would be more comparable to other jobs, where as now its fairly lack luster.


While I know there is a gap between RDM and BLU in damage output, you cant solely count rdm out either.I agree, I have some of the best gear for RDM, including the best TP set for RDM in most cases, but the fact is our gear suffers terribly. Even with Excalibur and optimum gear to use it, RDM still parses at a lower DPS than most DDs in their average gear that people can pick up in only a week or less. RDM looks ok on the outside when you think about it, but when you really do the math you see its real flaws that cause it to be worse than it should be. So while I agree, RDM is not as terrible as people make it out to be, its also not as good as it really should be, this change to gear simply helps balance that scale to be a bit more fair to RDM.


We've been over this many times before.I basically agree with everything you said.



In the end, look at RDMs gear against other jobs. This (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/260962) is RDM's best TP set for most cases, it uses very weird gear, as Saevel said, RDM simply doesn't have access to enough high end melee gear, it's only on the weird cast off pieces that people rarely actually use for melee. The same thing can be said of our gear we use for CDC, thankfully KoR and Req can use the new amazing Morrigan's+1 gear, but this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/260965) is our best CDC set. Anyone can tell these are weird pieces no other job would really use, and its not like RDM is just the job who can use this well, but rather, we lack better options. The sets we would be using for TP and CDC if we had access to these sets would be this(TP) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/289522) and this(CDC) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/289523) which are massively better, but even with it, our DPS would still be lower than the other jobs. This adjustment would do nothing more than put us closer to other jobs, which I believe is about all we really need to fit our job description.

Besides this, the most welcome addition to RDM would be either Bravery or some form of native Dual Wield. Both of those are welcome additions as well, though I highly doubt we will ever see native DW, and in all honesty, I would rather Bravery anyways as it seems to fit RDM better.

[Helel]

*Note*

Requiescat can be incredibly, stupidly powerful in the right situation with the right gear. It's six hits while dual wielding and 1.0 fTP per hit. With gorget / belt your looking at 1.2 fTP for a total potential of 7.2 FTP, 1 DA makes it 8.4. 100% MND would suck on almost any other job except RDM which has MND gear up the wazoo. The kicker is the -20% attack which makes this WS nearly useless on anything stronger then a VT monster, which is where CDC would come in anyway. The WS completely ignores PDT which is incredibly powerful. All this combined makes it a solid WS for trash mobs (what a RDM would be fighting anyway) and an incredibly WS for anything with special defenses, which the most annoying monsters have.

The most annoying monsters are going to be level 120 with massive defense. Good luck using requiescat against those mobs, even if it does bypass -PDT. It's very useful against EP/DC mobs, but that's pretty much it.

In terms of damage dealing, dual wield kraken club with almace/excalibur and spam CDC/requiescat.

[Yinnyth]

PUP and BST are both featured on 2 out of 3 sets from the same events as these, PUP is on the Light DD and Mage sets, while BST is featured on the Light and Heavy DD sets. I think it is fair for RDM to get that sort of treatment, meaning RDM getting access to Anhur/Mex, Heka/Toci, Rubeus/Athos, and Nares/Thaumas.

I believe you may be a little bit misinformed as far as the salvage gear goes. BST can use only phorcys, and PUP can use only thaumas. I'm also curious why you're singling out the good things BST and PUP get, when just like RDMs, those jobs are currently screwed for usefulness in most endgame situations.

[Demon6324236]

I believe you may be a little bit misinformed as far as the salvage gear goes. BST can use only phorcys, and PUP can use only thaumas. I'm also curious why you're singling out the good things BST and PUP get, when just like RDMs, those jobs are currently screwed for usefulness in most endgame situations.
As for the gear specifics, you are partially accurate, its really that BST and PUP are on the early VW sets, such as Mex and Toci, where as Athos and Thaumas have no double jobs.The reason I single it out is because it shows that SE is not completely against putting the same job on two of these types of sets. If that is the case, RDM of all jobs should be allowed to have two as well, seeing as its utility depends on it. RDM without melee, only magic, is not RDM, it is simply a slightly different version of SCH, and in most cases, a weaker version. That is not how the job should be, melee is part of the job, but SE often ignores it. The point I was trying to make with that example is that if these other jobs are able to have access to two sets at the same time, why is it that RDM can not?

I do admit I was incorrect with the Athos and Thaumas gear, in fact the first paragraph of the OP is copied from my post I made in the "How would you like certain items to be changed?" thread months ago with a few edits for this thread. The point still stands however that due to not having access to this gear, RDM's melee suffers massively, even just Mex and Toci would help RDM quite a bit. The Oce head has a ton of Haste, the Mex body set gives a ton of accuracy, haste, and some DW, and Toci would be the best body for CDC, though that matters less now than it would have before Meebles.

[Metaking]

bst is an odd ball, i mean everything is in there pocket gear wize to be excelling they generally (nowadays) get the best or second best of all gear heavy and light dd, there hand axes when dw'ed are heavy enough that stp might actually matter, and they probably have the best merit weaponskill of the bunch (pure str ftp transfers and it gets like a 30% attack boost), but even with all that they are still pretty low on the dmg hierarchy. It mostly the normal issues tho got a sub issue being war or dnc and the lower dmg of 1 handed weapons for weaponskills ext

[Demon6324236]

While you are correct, I just want to say that the point I was trying to make is that BST and PUP are on two sets of gear in some of those cases where others are not. It had nothing to do with what jobs they were, but rather the fact they are able to use two sets.

[ManaKing]

Hecatomb's would have made CDC useable...

[Crimson_Slasher]

Exactly, not to mention some of us (head/feet/hands here) have a lot of the hecatomb+1 augmented already. The Tp build gear we have isnt all that bad, its not great true, but if we had something to close the gap on ws, our tp gear wouldnt be so bad and our DPS as a whole would rise. Bard enjoys this luxury, when i bet theres a few pieces we get that those shattersoul or extenterator/Rudra bards would love.

[Demon6324236]

Well a prime example of Shattersoul gear would be Morrigan's, but for the other two, there is not a lot RDM has for DEX or AGI that BRD does not easily surpass with their gear, for one example, look no further than their amazing Relic+2 body.