New Rune Fencer Details on Seekers of Adoulin Official Site

[Infidi]

What do you guys think? I liked everything they've put up so far, Swordplay kinda baffled me at first though. Losing an effect because of a critical hit from an enemy is kinda odd... Maybe they'll change it. :/

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/adoulin/index.html

[Kincard]

I think making RUN a evasion tank is a bad idea, especially with a clause like "don't get hit by a critical" (On the other hand, such an ability would be perfect synergizing for Ninjas since they have shadows. You play poorly with shadows/get unlucky, you lose your bonus).

I feel like this will make it either make RUN a bad actual tank (but a great support, because of their rune abilities to ward allies versus ailments and AoE) for endgame events, or it'll be massively overpowered because in an attempt to make it an evasion tank they end up making it dodging better than Ninjas can while still having all these other abilities. Other people are free to disagree with me on this because I'm still trying to picture it in my head.

The order of the most evasion jobs in the game goes as follows:
1. THF
2. DNC
3. NIN + Yonin
4. PUP
5. NIN

Too lazy to list the rest, since they're not as relevant. To put it in perspective, last I checked a DNC running a hybrid eva set on Salvage II Khim had something along the lines of a 60% dodge rate. A NIN with a similar evasion set would have something like a 40% dodge rate, with anywhere from 45~55% dodge rate if they had yonin active.

If the plan is to make it so that a Ninja's superior evasion is an alternate route to the RUN's other utilities, that means they'd probably have something like a 25-40% dodge rate on that same monster- this is assuming the RUN doesn't prefer wearing the heavy -DT armor that it'll likely have access to. Of course, items like Briscard Cuisses have been coming out so perhaps SE is looking to make more Eva/DT gear which I would very much welcome. (Though preferably they will make these Chainmail-class items so NIN can wear them too, if they are leather/light armor then even better yet since you can cross-use them onto your light DPS jobs too).

So right now I'm seeing a few possibilities:

1. RUN will be worse at dodging than NIN and their high evasion amongst heavy armor classes won't really do anything.
2. Make RUN better at base dodging than NIN and preserve balance by thinking of new tricks for NIN to do versus the RUN's rune abilities.
3. RUN will be better than NIN at dodging and they do nothing to make up the difference, RUN ends up being a broken and gets nerfed sometime down the road.

Sod's law makes me expect option 3.

[Zhronne]

The order of the most evasion jobs in the game goes as follows:
1. THF
2. DNC
3. NIN + Yonin
4. PUP
5. NIN

Where are MNK and other jobs?
Are you considering Eva skill?
Eva Bonus?
Their base AGI?
Accessibility to good +eva gear?
A mixture of everything?


For instance NIN has 417 eva skill vs PUP's 398. DNC has 404, THF has 424.
When it comes to AGI NIN = DNC = THF > PUP.
THF has ~60 Evasion bonus, PUP and DNC have +48 (roughly) Evasion bonus, Ninja has Yonin. No exact numbers are known about the +Eva granted by Yonin, but I've seen +60 mentioned (it goes down over the course of 3 mins)

MNK sits at 404 skill, lower AGI than all of the above jobs, no evasion bonus but +30 eva for 2mins every 5 mins. (~60 if you have glanzfaust lol)

[Zhronne]

All of this to say that unless I'm missing something (which is likely!) imho it should be:

THF > Yonin NIN >= DNC >= NIN > PUP

[Kincard]

Where are MNK and other jobs?

Didn't think it was relevant to the discussion (Though I suppose MNK is somewhat because it has high evasion and dodge), I was simply pointing out where NIN stood because that is the only other tank that focuses on evasion. The point was more that even for the top-end evasion jobs evade tanking is currently in a poor state because of nature of eva (Inconsistent results compared to -DT and hurts your enmity gain, not enough of a variety of evasion gear. PLD at least has a ton of enmity generating abilities and hopefully RUN will have them too)


Are you considering Eva skill?
Eva Bonus?

The calculation was made talking about evasion skill and evasion bonus alone with no gear considered, which is the best way to talk about it, IMO. PUP has more evasion on its own than NIN does.

Yonin was assumed to be 30 evasion because the other values on the trait (and many traits on Innin) are often 30. I highly doubt it is 60 evasion. If its not 30, it is probably less than that (Makes the most sense to me that it decays from 30->10 like most of the other stats though). Yonin NINs do not out-dodge DNCs. This is without counting Closed Position.

Ultimately the effect base AGI from jobs have on their evading doesn't really make that huge a difference. For example even PLD only has about 15 less AGI than a NIN does, which is ~7.5 evasion and thus ~3% dodge rate. It's nice and all, but in the big picture AGI isn't important to how often you're dodging at all.

[Zhronne]

I dunno, if we exclude stuff like Yonin and Closed Position from the overall picture, we're basically comparing:

417+0
404+48
398+48

There is a 48 difference in evasion bonus, and a 19-13 difference in evasion skill.
Now if 1 Eva skill roughly corresponds to 1 Eva Bonus there is no need to further expand on this, the answer would be clear.
But personally I always got the impression that Evasion Skill had a much bigger relevance than just +Evasion Bonus.
Similar to how other combat skills do not just add only accuracy or attack but a mixture of both (and in the case of H2H, base damage too)

And personally yes, if we esclude Closed Position I always got the feeling that my Yonin NIN evades much more than my DNC and especially my PUP. Altough I'm not talking about numbers here, but just personal (maybe biased) impressions.

Considering NIN was originally meant to eva tank it wouldn't be so surprising if things were like this after all, would they?

[Kincard]

Considering NIN was originally meant to eva tank it wouldn't be so surprising if things were like this after all, would they?

It would be given that the way they try to balance the game doesn't seem to have any sort of logic to it.

The NIN evasion value was set before NIN was designed as a tank and they didn't really go back to change even after they embraced that design aspect of it. Yonin was supposed to be something that helped Ninja along but honestly, I barely ever use it anymore. Yonin's just not a very useful JA. The enmity was the best part of it, and of course that's currently broken and being worked on.


But personally I always got the impression that Evasion Skill had a much bigger relevance than just +Evasion Bonus.

Actually, evasion skill is worse than evasion. Past 200 skill 1 evasion skill actually gives you 0.9 evasion (So 10 skill levels gets you 9 evasion, here's a test for it if you're feeling skeptical (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/105548-Evasion-Skill-vs-Evasion?p=4682323&viewfull=1#post4682323)). It is not known to affect any other defensive stats, not that it'd really matter if we're just discussing evasion.

[Zhronne]

I see, thanks for your insight ;)