BST Native Dual-Wield~

[Ramaza]

I've searched the forums and never seen it suggested, but why can't BST have its own native dual wield? It seems like most of the one-handed DDs these days (BLU, NIN, THF, DNC) get dual-wield, but BST gets none unless they sub /DNC or /NIN. Letting us have our own native dual-wield could open up more SJ options and let us sub more damaging SJs like /WAR and at least try to compete with other hard hitting melee in party situations. Not only that but we could dual wield -PDT axes as /WHM or /SCH for solo if we needed to sub those and not /DNC.

[Caketime]

This would be a fun addition, but that's the problem. We're not allowed to have too much fun, at least some of our gameplay has to be frustrating. At least we're not relying on Charm roulette to stay alive at all times anymore, now our biggest annoyances are jug space and no native DW. I like this suggestion, but every non-BST will hate it forever and pre-emptively cry nerf.

[Ramaza]

This would be a fun addition, but that's the problem. We're not allowed to have too much fun, at least some of our gameplay has to be frustrating. At least we're not relying on Charm roulette to stay alive at all times anymore, now our biggest annoyances are jug space and no native DW. I like this suggestion, but every non-BST will hate it forever and pre-emptively cry nerf.

Said no happy, no fun no merriment lol. At this point though I can't imagine why any other job would cry foul because BST got it's own native dual-wield traits. It only makes sense at this point. I mean common now, do they really expect people to still being using board and axe outside the most niche of situations :x? At least with a native dual-wield trait we could better compete with other jobs for damage. I don't even mind the annoyance of tons upon tons of jugs if we could just get our own dual-wield without /NIN or /DNC.

[Louispv]

Because SE gave us fencer. They never test anything in this game or play it themselves, so they have no idea that fencer is absolutely worthless even for it's intended purpose, but it's there.

[Glamdring]

@OP you didn't search far enough, there were about 138 threads encompassing every job about giving every single job dual wield native, and that certainly included beast. the discussions went on for weeks, and it was about as informative and interesting as a steady diet of 3:00 a.m. C-span. The eventual answer was that thf got dual wield. The End.

[Ramaza]

@OP you didn't search far enough, there were about 138 threads encompassing every job about giving every single job dual wield native, and that certainly included beast. the discussions went on for weeks, and it was about as informative and interesting as a steady diet of 3:00 a.m. C-span. The eventual answer was that thf got dual wield. The End.

I actually did a deeper search of the forums and found the thread your talking about a couple of days ago. It's a shame that's all it amounted to. I don't get why THF and BLU got Dual-wield and not BST. I would think that out of all the potential dual-wielding jobs we'd at least make it to the top 4 in terms of actually making use of dual wield. At this point though I'm fully expecting we get shield mastery of all things :/

[Ramaza]

Because SE gave us fencer. They never test anything in this game or play it themselves, so they have no idea that fencer is absolutely worthless even for it's intended purpose, but it's there.

Real talk, making it not work with dual wield is one of the dumbest moves they've made by far. I don't see Fencer being that game breaking or unbalanced for BST if it actually worked with dual wield, or ACTUALLY GIVING US the dual wield trait.

[Demon6324236]

I actually did a deeper search of the forums and found the thread your talking about a couple of days ago. It's a shame that's all it amounted to. I don't get why THF and BLU got Dual-wield and not BST. I would think that out of all the potential dual-wielding jobs we'd at least make it to the top 4 in terms of actually making use of dual wield. At this point though I'm fully expecting we get shield mastery of all things :/If its what you get, then your in the same boat as RDM, not a pleasant boat I assure you, cause it means SE at least acknowledged your problem, and instead of fixing it they thought it was better to simply give you something off topic and terrible for your job.

[Ramaza]

If its what you get, then your in the same boat as RDM, not a pleasant boat I assure you, cause it means SE at least acknowledged your problem, and instead of fixing it they thought it was better to simply give you something off topic and terrible for your job.

I just really want to understand their thought processes behind some of these job adjustments. There's things they could be doing right now that are simple, small, and easy additions like BST dual wield, or giving RDMs the merit spells in scroll form instead. Yet for some odd reason it either neither gets done, or its something we never asked for, didn't want and still don't need today. I mean why would anyone willingly single wield on BST in this day and age unless forced into it for a niche situation.

[Raborn]

I actually find Fencer quite useful, however at its current Tier on BST its practically worthless (No its still better than nothing!), now if SE would increase BST's Fencer = or greater than that of WAR's, I would gladly take Fencer over Dual Wield any day!

Hey Devs! Can we get a Fencer trait increase to that of WARs?

Seeing as our primary weapon is a SINGLE HANDED WEAPON?

And how about an Accuracy and Attack bonus to Fencer too?
Up to +15 at the 5th tier?

[Zagen]

Getting native DW would be incredibly overpowered for the job, even at DW 1 I'd consider it going into the overpowered realm. The only time I could see it being of benefit without making BST over powered is in VW where /WAR would be appealing because BST wouldn't get DD buffs.


I would gladly take Fencer over Dual Wield any day!
The only time Fencer would ever pull ahead for BST (even at WAR's current Tier V) is when you're not /NIN or /DNC and are able to melee. In the current FFXI world I can think of 2 situations where that would apply; "for fun" and if you're soloing Armed Gears as BST/SCH. You just give up too much to make Fencer work over Dual Wield.

[Ramaza]

Getting native DW would be incredibly overpowered for the job, even at DW 1 I'd consider it going into the overpowered realm. The only time I could see it being of benefit without making BST over powered is in VW where /WAR would be appealing because BST wouldn't get DD buffs.


The only time Fencer would ever pull ahead for BST (even at WAR's current Tier V) is when you're not /NIN or /DNC and are able to melee. In the current FFXI world I can think of 2 situations where that would apply; "for fun" and if you're soloing Armed Gears as BST/SCH. You just give up too much to make Fencer work over Dual Wield.

As someone who regularly parses I beg to differ. The Ruinator WS is quite literally the only way we can keep up these days. DW1 certainly isn't going to overpower anyone, neither will DW2 or 3 on its own; the delay of one-handed axes will make sure of that. The real strength of being able to have dual wield on our own will come from being able to sub WAR and still Dual wield. In doing this we'll at least have a leg up in trying to compete in damage with other jobs, since outside of Killer Instinct/Traits/Food BST has no native way to boost their own damage.

Not to mention the benefits of being able to dual wield PDT axes and /Mage if you have to. The benefits outweigh any possible negatives.

[Ramaza]

I actually find Fencer quite useful, however at its current Tier on BST its practically worthless (No its still better than nothing!), now if SE would increase BST's Fencer = or greater than that of WAR's, I would gladly take Fencer over Dual Wield any day!

Hey Devs! Can we get a Fencer trait increase to that of WARs?

Seeing as our primary weapon is a SINGLE HANDED WEAPON?

And how about an Accuracy and Attack bonus to Fencer too?
Up to +15 at the 5th tier?

The amount of Fencer that WAR has is just as equally useless >.>. Matching our Fencer trait level with WAR's isn't going to magically make it better-even dual wielding on WAR is a better option than single wielding, and Ragnarok/Ukkon is better than that.

We need native dual wield on this job. Not more Fencer.

[Zagen]

As someone who regularly parses I beg to differ. The Ruinator WS is quite literally the only way we can keep up these days. DW1 certainly isn't going to overpower anyone, neither will DW2 or 3 on its own; the delay of one-handed axes will make sure of that. The real strength of being able to have dual wield on our own will come from being able to sub WAR and still Dual wield. In doing this we'll at least have a leg up in trying to compete in damage with other jobs, since outside of Killer Instinct/Traits/Food BST has no native way to boost their own damage.

Not to mention the benefits of being able to dual wield PDT axes and /Mage if you have to. The benefits outweigh any possible negatives.

Math > Parse. If your parses have you keeping up with DDs (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about) then 1 of 4 things is happening:
1) Those DD suck
2) Different buffs
3) Lag
4) Human error

Ruinator is amazing but it isn't going to bridge the gap with DDs.

DW 1 allows BST to go BST/nonNINorDNC while maximizing it's pet's stats via double axes. Essentially beneficial for the sit back and watch solos. Like I implied weak enough but still boarders into the overpowered realm as it removes restriction of weapon limitation from dropping /NIN or /DNC.

DW2-3 gives us the same as /NIN and /DNC for TP gain. However when you throw in an extra 10% Double Attack the TP gain surpasses /NIN and /DNC (should be obvious I'm just pointing it out not assuming you don't get that). Combine that with 25% Attack and it grants us even faster ability to destroy a monster without penalty.

Despite the delay on Axes DW2+ > Single Wield for TP and overall damage.

I get the idea you want to try and keep up with the DD classes but BST is not a DD. Trying to break into that realm would make BST overpowered and lead to nerfs in other areas that BST currently excels.

[Ramaza]

Math > Parse. If your parses have you keeping up with DDs (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about) then 1 of 4 things is happening:
1) Those DD suck
2) Different buffs
3) Lag
4) Human error

Ruinator is amazing but it isn't going to bridge the gap with DDs.

DW 1 allows BST to go BST/nonNINorDNC while maximizing it's pet's stats via double axes. Essentially beneficial for the sit back and watch solos. Like I implied weak enough but still boarders into the overpowered realm as it removes restriction of weapon limitation from dropping /NIN or /DNC.

DW2-3 gives us the same as /NIN and /DNC for TP gain. However when you throw in an extra 10% Double Attack the TP gain surpasses /NIN and /DNC (should be obvious I'm just pointing it out not assuming you don't get that). Combine that with 25% Attack and it grants us even faster ability to destroy a monster without penalty.

Despite the delay on Axes DW2+ > Single Wield for TP and overall damage.

I get the idea you want to try and keep up with the DD classes but BST is not a DD. Trying to break into that realm would make BST overpowered and lead to nerfs in other areas that BST currently excels.

You assumed wrong. I'm making this argument for the fact that we can't keep with a lot of DDs in the game. I don't know why you assumed the other, and yes WE ARE A DD CLASS just like any other pet job. We just currently aren't a very attractive DD class for endgame content. Its the community at large that continues to treat the class as the throw away position the class is currently in, and for good reason, because its a challenge to even keep up with other DD let alone be competitive. And no it would not make us overpowered, giving us Dual wield 2-3 isn't going to make us do better than a well geared Ukon/Resolution WAR or DRK or a weall geared SAM or a well geared DRG. One handed DD already have it rough versus 2 handers and the Motenten spreadsheets (dat math) can prove that.

Double attack+10% won't bridge a gap like that to borderline brokeness, neither will 25% attack bonus from Berserk, but what it can do is make us more competitive and attractive in a party situation. Even when you factor in Snarl its still not as broken as your over exaggerating it to be, do to the fact that most of the things worth doing anymore have powerful AoE's, so the pet is bound to die sooner or later even with max potency reward and recast down. Just like DRG with Jumps/Super Jump down we have just as much chance to die even with our hate erase abilities.

Nothing that BST currently excels at is worth being mitigated to nothing more than low man content whore ala Dynamis, Salvage etc. At least let us be competitive like a PUP/WAR can be. Unless you think PUP/WAR is currently broken.

[Zagen]

You assumed wrong. I'm making this argument for the fact that we can't keep with a lot of DDs in the game.
Well I'm sorry you implied that Ruinator allowed BST to keep up with DDs here:

As someone who regularly parses I beg to differ. The Ruinator WS is quite literally the only way we can keep up these days.


and yes WE ARE A DD CLASS just like any other pet job.
If you broke the classes down to something rudimentary like Healer and DD then sure BST would go under DD.


Its the community at large that continues to treat the class as the throw away position the class is currently in, and for good reason, because its a challenge to even keep up with other DD let alone be competitive. And no it would not make us overpowered, giving us Dual wield 2-3 isn't going to make us do better than a well geared Ukon/Resolution WAR or DRK or a weall geared SAM or a well geared DRG. One handed DD already have it rough versus 2 handers and the Motenten spreadsheets (dat math) can prove that.

My community (the people I regularly play with) loves my BST, PUP, and SMN. You know in those situations where they are a bigger benefit over my other jobs.


Double attack+10% won't bridge a gap like that to borderline brokeness, neither will 25% attack bonus from Berserk, but what it can do is make us more competitive and attractive in a party situation. Even when you factor in Snarl its still not as broken as your over exaggerating it to be, do to the fact that most of the things worth doing anymore have powerful AoE's, so the pet is bound to die sooner or later even with max potency reward and recast down. Just like DRG with Jumps/Super Jump down we have just as much chance to die even with our hate erase abilities.

Like I said you're looking at BST as if it was supposed to be a heavy DD and not a utility job.

In the utility role DA+10% alone is enough to bring it to another level (look at BST pre DA Ganelon and post). Further add in the 25% Attack and factor in that you have 0 draw backs in most of the situations BST excels at and you have an overpowered job.

[Glamdring]

You assumed wrong. I'm making this argument for the fact that we can't keep with a lot of DDs in the game. I don't know why you assumed the other, and yes WE ARE A DD CLASS just like any other pet job. We just currently aren't a very attractive DD class for endgame content. Its the community at large that continues to treat the class as the throw away position the class is currently in, and for good reason, because its a challenge to even keep up with other DD let alone be competitive. And no it would not make us overpowered, giving us Dual wield 2-3 isn't going to make us do better than a well geared Ukon/Resolution WAR or DRK or a weall geared SAM or a well geared DRG. One handed DD already have it rough versus 2 handers and the Motenten spreadsheets (dat math) can prove that.

Double attack+10% won't bridge a gap like that to borderline brokeness, neither will 25% attack bonus from Berserk, but what it can do is make us more competitive and attractive in a party situation. Even when you factor in Snarl its still not as broken as your over exaggerating it to be, do to the fact that most of the things worth doing anymore have powerful AoE's, so the pet is bound to die sooner or later even with max potency reward and recast down. Just like DRG with Jumps/Super Jump down we have just as much chance to die even with our hate erase abilities.

Nothing that BST currently excels at is worth being mitigated to nothing more than low man content whore ala Dynamis, Salvage etc. At least let us be competitive like a PUP/WAR can be. Unless you think PUP/WAR is currently broken.

100% on board with you. I've written a few times about beast utility in partys, and the general advice is for the other DD to back off until the pet has a buttload of hate, like you used to have people do with a conventional tank. The reason is the vast majority of bsts have gearred themselves for pet durability. The thing simply can't hold hate against a par or above DD, so if you are hoping the pet will keep the party alive (what most party builders seem to think is going to happen) you assume wrong. The other DD piling the TP on to the mob means that your pet is eating a hell of alot more specials than they do solo and pet healing simply can't keep up, at least without your own semi trailer full of dawn mulsums at party kill speeds.

oh, and speaking as someone who plays pup in end-game content, pup/anything is not OP, we're just nicely at the top end of DD with Sam and Drk when you add our auto's numbers to ours, IF you are using a DD auto. More often than not I'm running a whm auto to back-up heal in partys, necessary because almost every DD melee player on the servers these days is gearing for max DPS and forgetting the part about your prey WILL hit back, and while /dnc with a couple curing waltz 3 is nice a whm bombing Cure VI and erase is even nicer. Of course, the whm auto means our DD suffers (even with him hasting us) and takes us off the top end of DD. still, hella fun

[Zagen]

oh, and speaking as someone who plays pup in end-game content, pup/anything is not OP, we're just nicely at the top end of DD with Sam and Drk when you add our auto's numbers to ours, IF you are using a DD auto
Unless you're highly skewing the odds in PUP's favor no you're not (even with the auto).

PUP does edge out over BST in general. Adding the pets however usually will benefit the BST more unless we're talking something like pudding types. The main detriment of the pet for pup is that in order to make it a good pet you need to keep up maneuvers which hurts the PUP's damage potential.

Edit: I should clarify when talking about PUP > BST for damage that assumes the WHM or RDM puppet giving Haste. Otherwise PUP is behind BST for master damage.

[Ramaza]

Well I'm sorry you implied that Ruinator allowed BST to keep up with DDs here:

I wasn't talking in literal absolutes like your trying to imply. Not every DD in a VW or any other serious endgame event is extremely well geared to the teeth (99 Adaberk/Ragnaroks etc), so its not impossible to keep up with them. It's really hard, but not impossible. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I should've elaborated more on my end.


If you broke the classes down to something rudimentary like Healer and DD then sure BST would go under DD.


That is correct as most classes (jobs) in todays modern MMO design have always followed the trifecta of the holy trinity (DD, Tank, Healer).


My community (the people I regularly play with) loves my BST, PUP, and SMN. You know in those situations where they are a bigger benefit over my other jobs.

I'm happy that, with the way things currently are, your pet jobs are working out for you in the situations you feel are worthy for it. As the way thing stand right now though, for anyone who actually wants to be a career BST and not a bandwagon farm/solo bot, and actually wants to join in and contribute to serious endgame events (VW, Legion, whatever comes out of the new expansion pack etc.) as BST, things could be much improved at the moment.



Like I said you're looking at BST as if it was supposed to be a heavy DD and not a utility job.

And the problem here is that your looking at as simply NOTHING MORE than a utility job that you occasionally make use of to fill whatever niche situation you need it for while "main'ing" something else. This is pretty much the FFXI community standard for jobs that can't excel or contribute some kind of "X factor" in a more than a few party situation (see: PLD, RDM, PUP, Pre-Embrava SCH). I'm speaking more from the point of view of a career vet BST from 03-04.


In the utility role DA+10% alone is enough to bring it to another level (look at BST pre DA Ganelon and post). Further add in the 25% Attack and factor in that you have 0 draw backs in most of the situations BST excels at and you have an overpowered job.

Once again see above. The problem with your statement is that your overstating a native dual wield buff as some kind Shoha/Resolution brokeness, and while I understand your mindset this is simply not true. There are draw backs. A good portion of the stuff BST excels at these days your not going to be subbing /WAR to full on DD to begin with (Dynamis, Salvage 1, Sea Jailers, Old Limbus, ZNMs, Meeble Burrows in some cases), as lack of cures, and pulling hate off your pet, could be a huge threat to death if your low manning without a healer present. If an actual healer was present, with the way things are, you'd probably be better off taking a MNK etc. Most other situations you may not be meleeing at all in a pet onry burn.

Most of the places BST excels at really isn't exclusive to the job anymore. Hell a DNC/WAR can already do all the above, cure themselves, and make a double attack+ dagger if they were so inclined. To top it all off they can pop Saber Dance which, while locking waltzes, gives them yet another double attack+50%, and only decays 20% at finish for 3mins. I don't think anyone is screaming for the nerf bat just yet on DNC.

What native dual wield will do more than out weights the negatives. It will make the job more attractive for more serious endgame events, as the extra damage from /WAR makes the job look a lot more attractive with native dual wield. We already need more parity between the DDs, and far more balance between job classes in the long run. I'm not asking to suddenly become gods among DD, crushing even the most well geared Ukon WAR, but hell at least let me compete with a PUP fairly at bare minimum. Mog house >>> Job Change is not a fix for class balance, and I think any career RDM, PLD, PUP would agree with me there. I find the the only people who really disagree with this mindset are career jobs that are winning in the mess post-abyssea balance we have currently.

This is one of the few MMOs I've played wherein the "Beastmaster" class was so far down the totem pole of DD classes.

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure if Beastmaster should have native Dual-Wield or not, but:


If you broke the classes down to something rudimentary like Healer and DD then sure BST would go under DD.

This is really close to how it actually breaks down. There are support jobs that provide some mixture of cures, buffs, and/or a particularly awesome or frequent Stuns somehow, and there are jobs that hit things with things. For the majority of group content, that's it. Even Black Mage and Paladin are very niche jobs.

Beastmaster can't whip a rabbit or slug until it uses Curaga IV or Chaos Roll, so that puts Beastmaster in the category of "this guy hits things with things and this pet hits things with its head" whenever a Beastmaster joins a group that isn't made entirely out of Beastmasters and Summoners.

[Zagen]

I'm happy that, with the way things currently are, your pet jobs are working out for you in the situations you feel are worthy for it. As the way thing stand right now though, for anyone who actually wants to be a career BST and not a bandwagon farm/solo bot, and actually wants to join in and contribute to serious endgame events (VW, Legion, whatever comes out of the new expansion pack etc.) as BST, things could be much improved at the moment.

BST isn't the only job excluded from Legion. VW BST gets brought as a proc job (mostly by JP on my server), look at BLU, DNC, SCH, PUP, SMN, NIN, probably a few more I'm forgetting. The point is not every job fits the player's created cookie cutter scenarios. It sure would suck if all switching from DRK to BST offered me the same damage potential, at that point what's the point of switching.


And the problem here is that your looking at as simply NOTHING MORE than a utility job that you occasionally make use of to fill whatever niche situation you need it for while "main'ing" something else. This is pretty much the FFXI community standard for jobs that can't excel or contribute some kind of "X factor" in a more than a few party situation (see: PLD, RDM, PUP, Pre-Embrava SCH). I'm speaking more from the point of view of a career vet BST from 03-04.
I remember those days where BST was part of pet parties taking down HNMs, only difference between then and now is it takes less pets. There were events where throwing pets wasn't efficient or even practical just like now there are the same type of events.

It's not only about looking at it just as only a utility job it's just looking at how jobs can't branch out of their core FFXI role(I get most MMOs have "healer, DD, and Tank" but FFXI goes beyond such simplicity and even other MMOs do if you bothered to look). I mean you won't see a WAR soloing events like a BST, PLD, BLU, RDM, PUP, etc. Even if they subbed DNC or a mage sub they just don't function well in that department.


Once again see above. The problem with your statement is that your overstating a native dual wield buff as some kind Shoha/Resolution brokeness, and while I understand your mindset this is simply not true. There are draw backs. A good portion of the stuff BST excels at these days your not going to be subbing /WAR to full on DD to begin with (Dynamis, Salvage 1, Sea Jailers, Old Limbus, ZNMs, Meeble Burrows in some cases), as lack of cures, and pulling hate off your pet, could be a huge threat to death if your low manning without a healer present. If an actual healer was present, with the way things are, you'd probably be better off taking a MNK etc. Most other situations you may not be meleeing at all in a pet onry burn.

Dynamis I'll agree due to the proc system.
Sea NMs honestly depends on the NM.
Salvage 1 considering I'm currently doing it as PUP/THF with ranger frame because temps are enough I don't see your point (btw I tank on PUP more often than on BST).
Limbus is like Salvage, except for a few zones restore chests are often more than enough.
ZNMs it depends again as some just don't have nasty AoEs or AoEs at all.




Most of the places BST excels at really isn't exclusive to the job anymore. Hell a DNC/WAR can already do all the above, cure themselves, and make a double attack+ dagger if they were so inclined. To top it all off they can pop Saber Dance which, while locking waltzes, gives them yet another double attack+50%, and only decays 20% at finish for 3mins. I don't think anyone is screaming for the nerf bat just yet on DNC.

No role or event is exclusive to any job.

I can tell you don't actually play DNC. If you did you'd know /WAR is for DA if Saber Dance isn't being used and for Berserk.
FYI:

Saber Dance and DA from /WAR don't stack.
DA dagger sucks on DNC because of how Attack/STR starved the job is native, among other reasons.
Saber Dance goes fro 50% to 20% in the first 30 seconds it's activated regardless of merits.



What native dual wield will do more than out weights the negatives. It will make the job more attractive for more serious endgame events, as the extra damage from /WAR makes the job look a lot more attractive with native dual wield. We already need more parity between the DDs, and far more balance between job classes in the long run. I'm not asking to suddenly become gods among DD, crushing even the most well geared Ukon WAR, but hell at least let me compete with a PUP fairly at bare minimum. Mog house >>> Job Change is not a fix for class balance, and I think any career RDM, PLD, PUP would agree with me there. I find the the only people who really disagree with this mindset are career jobs that are winning in the mess post-abyssea balance we have currently.

DW won't make it more attractive for end game, look at any other 1 hand and let me know how appealing they are (after all THF, BLU, and DNC all get DW 3). This might change with the 1 handed changes although right now that could go either way. Like I mentioned DW makes it stronger in events where it excels not in the events you're aiming to become more appealing.

BST already beats PUP so I don't get why you mention that. I pointed out where a PUP can beat a BST:
When pet damage is excluded meaning PUP can use WHM or RDM puppets to haste them.
When you're fighting magic weak but melee resistant monsters like puddings.

[Kaeoni]

Job restrictions due to how the job is already naively designed, It Just makes sense for a Thief to sub Ninja or Dancer pre DW buff. It was a massive increase in DPS and even now both of those subs are used in different situations, /war is not exclusively used By thieves in all situations.

Beastmaster is in the same situation that Thief was previously in. It's locked into certain subjobs.

Pre 99 I used /whm quite frequently leveling the job. It wasn't something I particularly enjoyed, but the end justified the means, I had to stay alive, sneak/invisible charm monsters, the whole solo thing.

/mage isn't something I've taken seriously since /dancer came out. With a combination of a great Regen set, PDT/MDT set, well timed Snarls and intelligent gaming you don't need /mage unless you need a long lasting snk/inv for bumming around old content to do someones COP/TOAU/WOTG missions where /rdm or /whm is good enough.
I would certainly look at /whm again If the job was offered any good Scythes, entirely because of how Entropy operates Being an Apocalypse Drk I'm not wasting merits on the WS with my intent to make some kind of weird bst/whm Scythe melee. Which wouldn't work anyways because then If I was out to DD with a Scythe Id want to sub Samurai for Hasso not to mention I'm just throwing away my A- Axe skill and Guttler for a gimp scythe and B- Scythe skill.. In which case Bst/Whm is just another form of bst/dnc with worse attack/accuracy, haste spell, bad cure4's erase and RR...(off track here)

90% of the time you're on /dnc, it's a good combination of what whm used to give in regards to survivability and what Ninja offers in DD.
The only thing Ninja sub offers to a Bst is a single Tier of Dual Wield(10% respectively). This effectively makes this subjob our "DD sub" That's all this sub offers us. Utsusemi certainly helps mitigate some damage. But this is by no means anything comparable to what /dnc gives us. You sub Ninja with the intent you have someone backing you up in the healing department, which means you also at least have haste.

So far I shouldn't have said anything none of you already knew, but I thought to clarify, first off, my thoughts on the matter.

Now then. Explain to me why giving Bst Native Dual wield 3 and letting it /war is in any way different than what has already been done for Thief. Just because I can sub warrior doesn't mean I do all the time. The jobs own limitations and type of event you are participating in dictate what you are generally suppose to sub. What is the point of further restricting the jobs ability to do damage in a situation where it's suppose to do damage, furthermore, why would a person even care?
Just because Bst can berserk aggressor and have 10% more Double attack, That means we are out DDing Ragnarok/Resolution 2hr Warriors? Ragnarok Dark knights? What about an Ukon War, Apocalypse Dark knight? How about an Amano/Masa Sam? Simply a TP bonus Magian Samurai then? The Jobs not designed to do DD? Where exactly does it state that? If it did, and i missed the memo, in what situations am i beating said above DDs outside of solo/duo content?

What exactly does anyone gain when Beastmaster is able to sub a superior sub job to ninja?
Alternatively,
What exactly does anyone exactly lose?

The answer to all these questions? Nothing, Nothing changes. Your Dark knights your Warriors your Samurai and all your current Top DD stay top DD. Beastmaster isn't changing into /war on a regular basis because of the jobs own limitations when it comes to snarl timers and healing. When it comes down to it, /dnc is a superior DD sub anyways because you actually have the ability to take damage and recover it with Waltz3 and Drain SambaII, You don't need to turn away and cry in a corner because the monster under the bed scolded you for putting your pants on backwards like a little pre-schooler. What, are you going to do when you pull hate on /war? Switch into Regen gear and wait it out while your pet solos like when you were /whm? Rest? Pop some potions on an already gear intensive job?

You truly have zero understanding of the job if you don't understand how niche /war would actually be.
If you want to get right down to it, for MOST of the situations where you would want to sub warrior, You would probably be better off changing your job entirely.
The point is, there isn't any harm going to be done in doing so and giving the Job a better DD sub by giving it Dual Wield 3. I'm more interested in Tier3 DW for when i'm subbing Dancer, just so i can be of the same Tier dmg wise as ninja.

[Chimerawizard]

Ouch that was a lot of text.

As I understand it, you want dual wield to increase a BSTs DD potential. Obviously SE doesn't want to give BST dual wield, that is why they created fencer, along with trying to make single hand weapons for war slightly more relevant.

Therefore, adjust what the job trait fencer actually does, and while we're at it, change what tier each job that has it maxes out at.

Proposal: WAR-3 RDM-4 BST-3 BRD-2 RUN-3.

Give fencer tier one 10% job ability haste and every +1 after another 5% haste.
Take away all other effects fencer currently gives.

RDM was added and given the highest rank due to its artifact weapon Literally called Fencing degen. RUN has fencer as the second word in the job so, would give highest tier but there's a weapon it can equip that would put it over JA haste cap.

Levels of traits subject to balancing.

Edit: yes, basically the same as giving BST dual wield without them having to admit they gave dual wield.

[Plasticleg]

let's not and say we didn't

[Olor]

I'd love for BST to get native dual wield. Native DW 1 would not be game breaking in the slightest. I actually think all 1H support/non-pure mage jobs (so not GEO SCH WHM BLM SMN) should get T1 DW at 99 (if they don't get it sooner) - meaning I support it for PLD, RDM, RNG, COR and BRD as well

[Metaking]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Kerehcatl ( DMG:156 Delay:288 Accuracy+28 Attack+25 Pet: Accuracy+28 Attack+28) + this http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Brethren_Axe (DMG:132 Delay:288 Accuracy+16 Enmity-4 Pet: Accuracy+20) and lets say you could get dw3(25%) naturally Skadi's Cuirie +1 (7%) suppa(5%) Thurandaut chapeau(5% tho I dont think bst can cap haste and use it atm with everything else listed here) so 42% dw would leave you with about 334 delay cap haste(gear) and you at like 250ish not sure if the game will round that up or not.... moveing on, 4.8 tp per hit throw on a rajas and it becomes an even 5 tp per hit.

so 287 dmg at 250delay under your own power is kinda scary, but when coupled with such a beefy weapon skill im pritty sure drg and pup would be dropping a peg on the latter to make way for bst with the rest of the dws having to bring there A game or get crushed, and without how bad most of are(dw'ers) merit weapon skills are.... yea you could be alittle op at that point especially with war sub

ps before someone says it, yes i realize there weapon skill only uses the main hand dmg for the weapon skill excluding the last hit which is with the off hand

[Louispv]

crap

And I guess that makes BLU and THF super broken as they can get 40% dual wield by themselves with that gear already, and DNC and NIN incredibly broken because they can do it BEFORE any of that gear, right?

And you realize that BST can't equip Thurandaut right? And that no one should ever wear skadi body+1 because it's worthless crap for anyone but RNG? Especially not BST who gets a straight 30% damage increase from Ferine Gausape+2 and Killer instinct? And that you don't add the two weapons together because they attack separately? And that you don't know how to calculate delay? And that every single job just got weapons exactly like those, thus negating your entire argument?

[Chimerawizard]

No one should ever wear skadi body+1 because it's worthless crap. Especially not BST who gets a straight 30% damage increase from Ferine Gausape+2 and Killer instinct?

You do know that gauspe is situational right? Also, skadi body +1 beats other body pieces when geared properly, so don't say it's worthless crap. It is worth less than the hands and legs but not worth less than Toci's.

Edit: source for why it's not worthless,ffxiah/forums/BST/lv99gearsets (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/29814/gear-sets-for-bst-99/6/#2255543). it beat armadaberk in parse.

[Louispv]

Gausape is no longer situational. Everything in Adoulin but the umbrils is intimidated by BST. And nearly everything in the zone (and everything in delve) is the same family, so one pet gives the killer circle for damn near the whole zone. You never take it off anymore. Hell it even wins for WS's now. I stopped even taking my phorcys body out of storage unless I'm screwing around in limbus for some reason.

And the parse you linked explicitly states you need augmented Huginn gambieras and a patientia sash in order for skadi to be at all useful. And even then you're losing capped haste, and relying on a critical hit rate you can only get on enemies lower level than you. Have fun getting 300 million gil to make your worthless armor slightly useful (but still sub-par) in a FFXI that no longer exists because adoulin was released.

[Chimerawizard]

the parse you linked explicitly states you need augmented Huginn gambieras and a patientia sash in order for skadi to be at all useful.

first, gauspe is situational. If you are in dynamis for some easy Gil, do you bring gauspe or other bodies... End of story, situational, end of story.
The whole rest of the game did not go away, it was just outclassed.

"in order to be at all useful"...you should have read it better. He was saying those were the two TOP TP sets at the time of posting. Yes hq feet were needed to be at top dps. It still does hella better than gauspe when the enemy has no killer effects to exploit.

Just realized, you're trolling, aren't you.

[Louispv]

first, gauspe is situational. If you are in dynamis for some easy Gil, do you bring gauspe or other bodies... End of story, situational, end of story.
The whole rest of the game did not go away, it was just outclassed.

"in order to be at all useful"...you should have read it better. He was saying those were the two TOP TP sets at the time of posting. Yes hq feet were needed to be at top dps. It still does hella better than gauspe when the enemy has no killer effects to exploit.

Just realized, you're trolling, aren't you.

You should read it yourself. He said those were the best set ups for DC monsters you can't intimidate, (dynamis only) where you're eating red curry buns, (which will cut off about half the money you make, with dynamis currency hovering at 4.5k) are solo, and have no buffs. And even then it's a miniscule boost, in dead content, for 1 single job. And the spreadsheet comparison was done before Adoulin came out, and very much did make the rest of the game obsolete.

Are you seriously so thick as to believe that a piece of equipment that requires you to get another piece of 300 million gil equipment to be made at all useful, in only a single event, that you only do to make money in the first place, and is worse than free gear you can get in an afternoon in adoulin, somehow justifies that dual wield is broken and overpowered, and would take BST from one of the games worst DD's to the game's best? Despite the fact that 4 other jobs can already do the same damn thing and are still looked down upon as too weak?!

[sc4500]

It be cool if they allowed us to duel wield, but does it even matter, since /dnc is still going be the best sub job we can use, since if were to do massive damage with other subs, are pets will not tank and we will die faster, since you can not cure yourself, and would waste cures from the mages. When you look at the big picture you will see and pull hate from the pally and other jobs to wipe the party , that were only as good as are pets and if we get to much dd gear you will tank with horrible defense, and die, before you can snarl the pet.

The coolest way would be, we just have 18 people alliance all BST and just zerg mobs, till the cows come home.

[Chimerawizard]

utsusemi, ride shadows til snarl is ready. it works wonders.
/dnc is best for dynamis & I prefer it for solo play.

[Louispv]

Nah, just have an "Oh shit" macro that equips the same damage taken- gear you have for every other job. Then assuming you have maxed killer effect merits, best case scenario gear, and Ferine body+2 you'll have 80% DT-% 4mins/5 while killer instinct is up, and 57% for the one minute it's down and take hits better than everyone but PLD.

If you're using jugs, which you should since it will always let you have the correct pet family for killer instinct, you can just snarl onto them for the 1 minute killer instinct isn't up, if you're somehow getting too reamed to handle healing. I'm sitting at 29%/51% right now and I can almost always heal myself just with /DNC so long as there's just one enemy, since I usually am only taking double digit damage per swing.

[darkhorror]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Kerehcatl ( DMG:156 Delay:288 Accuracy+28 Attack+25 Pet: Accuracy+28 Attack+28) + this http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Brethren_Axe (DMG:132 Delay:288 Accuracy+16 Enmity-4 Pet: Accuracy+20) and lets say you could get dw3(25%) naturally Skadi's Cuirie +1 (7%) suppa(5%) Thurandaut chapeau(5% tho I dont think bst can cap haste and use it atm with everything else listed here) so 42% dw would leave you with about 334 delay cap haste(gear) and you at like 250ish not sure if the game will round that up or not.... moveing on, 4.8 tp per hit throw on a rajas and it becomes an even 5 tp per hit.

so 287 dmg at 250delay under your own power is kinda scary, but when coupled with such a beefy weapon skill im pritty sure drg and pup would be dropping a peg on the latter to make way for bst with the rest of the dws having to bring there A game or get crushed, and without how bad most of are(dw'ers) merit weapon skills are.... yea you could be alittle op at that point especially with war sub

ps before someone says it, yes i realize there weapon skill only uses the main hand dmg for the weapon skill excluding the last hit which is with the off hand

Using just adding damage for each hit that puts a naked MNK, with only boss delve weapon at 398 dmg, 376 delay, throw on 25% haste from gear and you are at 398 dmg, 282 delay. Put them both at delay reduction cap and BST looses by a lot since they both have the same delay, but MNK has MUCH higher damage fists. MNK beats BST by a lot even just using normal delve H2H weapon.

BST also looses a lot more tp per hit from DW than lower delay jobs. Which puts them at another disadvantage.

Now BST does have a pet and can help the entire party with debuffs from your pet, or from killer instinct. BST does have Ruinator which is an amazing WS. Really I would put BST ahead of most if not all other 1hand damage dealers.

The problem is that since this new update 2hand jobs and MNK have all become much stronger and well ahead of 1hand jobs.

[Mavrick]

Using just adding damage for each hit that puts a naked MNK, with only boss delve weapon at 398 dmg, 376 delay, throw on 25% haste from gear and you are at 398 dmg, 282 delay. Put them both at delay reduction cap and BST looses by a lot since they both have the same delay, but MNK has MUCH higher damage fists. MNK beats BST by a lot even just using normal delve H2H weapon.

BST also looses a lot more tp per hit from DW than lower delay jobs. Which puts them at another disadvantage.

Now BST does have a pet and can help the entire party with debuffs from your pet, or from killer instinct. BST does have Ruinator which is an amazing WS. Really I would put BST ahead of most if not all other 1hand damage dealers.

The problem is that since this new update 2hand jobs and MNK have all become much stronger and well ahead of 1hand jobs.

That's not all....

- Killer Instinct.... one of the only useful abilities BST has to offer to a group is reportedly nerfed from 15% down to 10% in delve according to BG.
- The Max HP Down effect from slug does not seem to trigger on mini delve NMs. (At least none of my 0/8 attempts on force pop NMs)
- Unknown if Slug's -DEF/-ATK can proc on these monsters, but even if it could your pet would not be able to get any TP due to monster evasion and/or pet constantly being killed, paralyzed, stoned, slowed, etc...

I'm withholding final judgement until I see what SE has in store with the new jug pets or if they add any other adjustments in the update... Perhaps they nerfred everything BST has to offer a group because the new pets are incredibly strong. For right now though, everything SE has done seems to suggest that they don't want BST doing anything besides farming dynamis... which is also being made irrelevant, so asking for DD-related buffs on bst might just be pointless.

[Babekeke]

they don't want BST doing anything besides farming dynamis... which is also being made irrelevant

It's swings and round-a-bouts I'm afraid.

The decent BSTs were well ahead of the game when it came to new-style proc dynamis, especially whilst they had TH 3. Those that were able to do dynamis every day were able to rake in a ton of gil very quickly, or just save up a ton of currency to make themselves a guttler to enable themselves to farm more gil/currency even faster to make another relic/mythic even.

However. Delve arrived and made airlixers so much better for making gil, that people stopped farming dynamis. This had 2 effects:

1) the price of airlixers went down.

2) the price of currency went up

Though you'll see people occasionally shouting to sell their currency at 4.5k or whatever, there's not many of them selling it, and there's not many of them buying it either (due to r/m/e being over-shadowed right now by delve weapons).

However. There are a few people who are waiting with baited breath for SE's upgrades to r/m/e, and among them are people who have not yet completed their relic. With dynamis appearing to be failing, they are selling airlixers to buy currency, rather than farm their own currency. Unfortunately, noone's selling it.

So, I'm running around with currency in my bazaar at 6.5k each (over-priced so that people don't actually buy it), then I see it all vanishing from my bazaar, or I get tells, saying "if you don't want to sell that, you'd better raise the price to 8k before I find you!"

My advice: go and farm Dynamis and see how high you can sell currency for now :)

[Falkirk]

That's not all....

- Killer Instinct.... one of the only useful abilities BST has to offer to a group is reportedly nerfed from 15% down to 10% in delve according to BG.

This is actually a Killer Instinct nerf that pertains to any and all Impossible to Gauge monsters (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/109820-Random-Question-Thread-XXVI-The-Rise-and-Fall-of-the-RQT?p=5124568&viewfull=1#post5124568) (the nerf has been around (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=262&mid=1327447110273249766&h=50&p=1#47) since at least March 2012 (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=262&mid=1327447110273249766&h=50&p=1#49)). Which makes for an even sadder state of affairs. :(

Sucks to hear about Purulent Ooze being ineffective as well...

[Mavrick]

This is actually a Killer Instinct nerf that pertains to any and all Impossible to Gauge monsters (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/109820-Random-Question-Thread-XXVI-The-Rise-and-Fall-of-the-RQT?p=5124568&viewfull=1#post5124568) (the nerf has been around (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=262&mid=1327447110273249766&h=50&p=1#47) since at least March 2012 (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=262&mid=1327447110273249766&h=50&p=1#49)). Which makes for an even sadder state of affairs. :(

Sucks to hear about Purulent Ooze being ineffective as well...


Okay, After many, many, many attempts I was finally able to land Purulent Ooze on Chapilu on the test server. His HP dropped to 89%. I had Pet Mag. Acc Axes x2, and /nin for Water resistance down. So it appears the NM are not totally immune to it just extremely resistant.

We should petition SE to add a potent Magic Accuracy bonus to Spur, Run Wild, and/or Familiar since additional effects are pretty much the only thing BST pet have of value to a group but we lack gear/abilities to increase the success rate.

[Falkirk]

Wow, nicely done! So it actually can work...

Forgive me if it's been mentioned, but can you get the finished Pet: M.Acc axes from the Magian Moogle on the test server? Or did you build those beforehand on the main servers?

[Mavrick]

Wow, nicely done! So it actually can work...

Forgive me if it's been mentioned, but can you get the finished Pet: M.Acc axes from the Magian Moogle on the test server? Or did you build those beforehand on the main servers?

You can get them on the test server. You have to speak to the trial moogle, select the Axe trials, view the full list and when you reach the Axe you want, select View Reward and you will get option to receive the item.

[darkhorror]

Okay, After many, many, many attempts I was finally able to land Purulent Ooze on Chapilu on the test server. His HP dropped to 89%. I had Pet Mag. Acc Axes x2, and /nin for Water resistance down. So it appears the NM are not totally immune to it just extremely resistant.

We should petition SE to add a potent Magic Accuracy bonus to Spur, Run Wild, and/or Familiar since additional effects are pretty much the only thing BST pet have of value to a group but we lack gear/abilities to increase the success rate.

Have you tried to land infrasonics and corrosive ooze on any of these NM's? If the evasion down works most of the time that would be huge considering how much evasion these delve mobs have. You could bring people who are right round acc floor from the acc floor to acc cap.

[Mavrick]

I can confirm Corrosive Ooze Lands on Gnat, Moth and Scorpion. You can tell its landing because Gnat has an ability to transfer enfeebling effects from itself to players in range, Scorpion shows a message in log if there are any enfeebling effects on him, and Moth uses Exuviation. Its has very high accuracy, but it only lasts 70-80 seconds on a 3 min recast and your pet will not be getting any TP from auto attacks.

I have only tested Infrasonic on Chapilu and Scorpion. With trial axes x2, it still has very poor accuracy and I have only gotten it to stick to scorpion after many many many failed attempts. If I had Cor's Pet Magic Acc roll, -Magic Evasion Down from Geo, and the appropriate Threnody from bard it might make the moves useful but t I don't think groups would go through all that trouble unless you can get capped accuracy on Purulent Ooze on mega bosses.

Familiar, Emp Hands+2, Spur, and Run Wild seems to have no effect on pet's additional effects which is pretty lame.