How about letting us upgrade Thief's Knife with ToM

[Zumi]

Suggestion how about letting us upgrade Thief's Knife with Trails of the Magaians. Most of the time a THF is used to TH monsters and having to equip and basically full time this horrible knife is somewhat frustrating. Would be nice to upgrade it to level 90 or 99 since it is a level 70 knife.

[Economizer]

Upgrade trial for thief's knife (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3296-Upgrade-trial-for-thief-s-knife)
Thief's knife upgrade (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17000-Thief-s-knife-upgrade)
A Simple Request from Thieves: An upgrade to Thief's Knife. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13514-A-Simple-Request-from-Thieves-An-upgrade-to-Thief-s-Knife.)
[dev1044] a Magian Trial to improves Thief's Knife. with a story too. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17231-dev1044-a-Magian-Trial-to-improves-Thief-s-Knife.-with-a-story-too.)
[To the Devs] Give us magian trial for upgrading Thief's knife please (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19186-To-the-Devs-Give-us-magian-trial-for-upgrading-Thief-s-knife-please)
How about letting us upgrade Thief's Knife with ToM (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/30714-How-about-letting-us-upgrade-Thief-s-Knife-with-ToM)
Thief's Knife upgrades (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29373-Thief-s-Knife-upgrades)
Thief's Knife - Updated. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22526-Thief-s-Knife-Updated.)

[Karbuncle]

the third topic in that is probably the most thoroughly discussed. It was closed because HERPDERPIMAGMHERPDERP. (Nah but really it got closed cause of stuff)

Long story short, Square Enix doesn't care about THF (or RDM.. or SMN... etc), We wont be getting anything to replace THF's knife, as far as they're concerned, Its fair for us to chose between Additional TH, or Additional Damage. Sad fact is, Its not a choice if you're in a group, in which case, you're fk'd into it. Logical loopholes hoo!

Sorry, THF Gets me riled up.

[Mirage]

What, SE doesn't care about thief??!

[luso1988]

nope they don't . not untill more then english speaking players care .. and even then
"gave a kid a toy he plays with it" give a chubby kid a toy he eats it " tell a chubby kid too pick up his toys? dream on

[Mirage]

dude i know

[Meyi]

Upgrade trial for thief's knife (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3296-Upgrade-trial-for-thief-s-knife)
Thief's knife upgrade (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17000-Thief-s-knife-upgrade)
A Simple Request from Thieves: An upgrade to Thief's Knife. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13514-A-Simple-Request-from-Thieves-An-upgrade-to-Thief-s-Knife.)
[dev1044] a Magian Trial to improves Thief's Knife. with a story too. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17231-dev1044-a-Magian-Trial-to-improves-Thief-s-Knife.-with-a-story-too.)
[To the Devs] Give us magian trial for upgrading Thief's knife please (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19186-To-the-Devs-Give-us-magian-trial-for-upgrading-Thief-s-knife-please)
How about letting us upgrade Thief's Knife with ToM (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/30714-How-about-letting-us-upgrade-Thief-s-Knife-with-ToM)
Thief's Knife upgrades (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29373-Thief-s-Knife-upgrades)
Thief's Knife - Updated. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22526-Thief-s-Knife-Updated.)


^ All of these topics point to the fact that this issue should be addressed.

[Alhanelem]

do you actually need to fulltime the thief's knife? Can't you just max out the treasure hunter amount then take it off?

[Demon6324236]

If you want to lose TP, lower DPS, and still have to suffer a level 70 dagger even needing to be in your inventory at all, yes, it should be possible. Though in all honesty this is not a problem THF should have to deal with, the job has enough problems as it is, there is no reason it should be limited to the trash dagger it is just for the single stat on it, which is the only stat THF is ever really even brought for to begin with. Thief's Knife basically is just kickin THF while its down.

[Sapphire]

Don't forget that the Devs have basically said your chances of a TH upgrade are higher the more TH gear you are wearing. So it's not just the Knife, you have to full time the hands and feet too in theory.

[Karbuncle]

Don't forget that the Devs have basically said your chances of a TH upgrade are higher the more TH gear you are wearing. So it's not just the Knife, you have to full time the hands and feet too in theory.

This is exactly why his upgrade needs to come. I just can't really imagine whats going on in the heads of Devs when they release Sh*t like that, and think forcing a outdated weapon in our hands is fair. And yes, It is forced, In any group activity, the THF has two options, Wear the piece of crap, or get replaced.

Seriously, I'll reiterate this point because its needed now. You don't have to Magian it, or make a higher level dagger, Its this Simple.

Add an Accessory:
RingTHF
Lv.90+
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1.

Latent active with no Thief's knife equipped. Simple. Replaces Thief's knife, Removes the need to wear a terrible weapon ever, and removes the threat of "Forced Dual wielding sh*tty TH Knifes" an upgrade might cause.

Is adding a ring to some Meeble Burrow NM that will improve the Quality of life for thousands of THF's such an unholy burdon on the dev team? I mean, I know adding any item can take some time, especially one with a unique Latent, But i can't imagine this would be too difficult, and in essence, you could treat it like other pieces of TH Gear. Swap at beginning > Take off.

Doesn't solve the idiocy of how upgrades work and fulltiming gives you highest benefit... god its like they want this job to shut up and know its place is nothing more than a worthless pile of mediocre who's only goal is to make things drop more, sometimes. Every Assassin/Thief/Rogue class in the world weeps at this terrible game design.

*Sigh*, Sorry, I get ranty when it comes to THF. I still love you guys.

[Yinnyth]

This is a topic I've always found interesting because my opinion on it changes back and forth.

On the one hand, it's an ancient level 70 weapon that thfs are still expected to use because it has a unique bonus to the one big thing people invite THFs for. The level 51 staves which kept mages in the same boat got replaced by magian staves and chatoyant. Keeping the knife this weak forces a THF to choose between damage and TH.

On the other hand, that might be exactly what SE is going for. Similar to how a SCH can choose to specialize in white or black magic and change on the fly if needed. SCH still has mediocre black magic while in light arts mode and THF still has mediocre TH while wearing damage daggers. Plus there's the argument of "if THF's knife is so worthless, then why does every THF worth his salt still carry one?"

In the long run, even if they updated the damage on thf's knife... I'd still probably tag high-priority targets, then put on a better damage dagger. Karbuncle's ring suggestion would be awesome for guys like me.

[Karbuncle]

The only problem i see with the Elemental Staves is that the jobs that use those, Generally don't tend to Melee, ever.

only exception i would imagine would be COR and RNG, but COR Actually gains damage on most enemies by using Fire/Chatoyant, and RNG has had replacement for the Fire/Vulcan for a while i believe. (Outside of Wildfire).

Thief's knife is worthless for DD, not whats its used for. I carry one in my mog sack for those times i might be fighting something like Fafnir where I care more about highest TH Than i do Killing it quickly, since the goal is the drop. (This is different for time based events like Dynamis).

Still your reasoning is pretty much how i saw it too. They wont give us Subtle Blow because we upgrade TH on attacks, and if we got Subtle blow, Banana Purple Lake Monster. Or something, It made no sense and i hate Square enix every time they open their flaps about Thief, as it makes me want to drink acid to wash down the gurgling idio......... Calm down karby...

But yah, Its probably got something to do with BALANCE.

I mean hey, the jobs already Balanced into a steaming pile of mediocrity, lets tack on a sh*tty level 70 weapon to really twist the knife into their backs.

[Elphy]

Add an Accessory:
RingTHF
Lv.90+
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1.

Yeah but even if they add something like this you just would end up creating a gear swap macro for your ring instead of your knife.

I frankly dont see the big deal. We all have gear set macros and are constantly swapping things in an out. Your not going to full time this knife any more than your going to full time the hands or feet so just macro in a better weapon. If you are full timing hands and feet anyway this knife really isnt hurting you that bad since dps doesnt seem to be a priority.

[Nebo]

do you actually need to fulltime the thief's knife? Can't you just max out the treasure hunter amount then take it off?

You can't really "max out" TH without wearing it because your chance to level up TH is based on your current TH level vs mob TH level. And the chance to level up TH lowers as that gap grows.

Now, whether or not it's worth it to "max out" TH and spend that time and effort leveling up TH to 12ish..I don't know.

I think that's the bad joke. We have to full-time bad gear and a terrible weapon to "level up" this super duper important trait that actually has very little effect compared to job level traits.

Also:


Square Enix doesn't care about THF

^

But it could be the exact opposite and the Developer in charge of THF actually has an intense hatred for the job:


My favorite theory is that one of the Development Bros actually hates this game and everything in it. Long ago, someone he loved became a shut-in who, to this very day, does nothing but play Final Fantasy XI all day. This Development Bro is allowed to stay on and take revenge on Final Fantasy XI because he's the only one still around who can code for a PS2 and he is more interested in nursing his grudge than getting a raise.

My theory is that it stems from RMT THFs back in the day because they are still spewing nonsense about stealing gold coins over and over (which hasn't been possible for many years) as a reason why we can't have nice things.

[SpankWustler]

I kind of wonder if improving Thief's Knife would actually change anything other than making people feel less horrible about either losing TP or using a level 70 weapon.

Right now, Thief's Knife is generally used when a Thief's damage isn't relevant either way. Fafnir is going to die with the certainty of a pancreatic cancer patient regardless of weapon quality, and killing it faster doesn't let anybody kill another Fafnir any sooner, so a weapon that provides a microscopic bonus to drop rate is used. The damage dealt to Gallu by one one-handed melee in the wrong party to be fully buffed is going to be horrid either way, so a weapon that provides a microscopic bonus to drop rate is used.

When damage actually matters, though, anything that makes stuff die faster becomes better. Statistically, the bonus from high amounts of Treasure Hunter is almost nothing, so it can only compete when the effect of additional damage is "almost nothing" or actually "nothing".

So, I'm not sure what a less horrid Thief's Knife would do other than make people feel less horrid about their own damage while playing Thief. Also, I'm not sure the Development Bros want people to feel less horrid while playing Thief, given that the job's purpose seems to be to exist and have Treasure Hunter as a job trait.

[Catmato]

Yeah but even if they add something like this you just would end up creating a gear swap macro for your ring instead of your knife.
Swapping a ring doesn't cause TP loss.

[Elphy]

Swapping a ring doesn't cause TP loss.

The loss of a little tp is generally not a make or break. Especially if you swap immediately after a ws, which is what I generally do, which causes a tp loss of like 10-15, 1 attack round and you get that back.

[Demon6324236]

The loss of a little tp is generally not a make or break. Especially if you swap immediately after a ws, which is what I generally do, which causes a tp loss of like 10-15, 1 attack round and you get that back.Now if you are fighting just a single mob, thats ok, but when doing something where you are fighting many mobs, the effect gets bigger over time, for instance Dyna, Salvage, Abyssea even, when you come to these cases, you really would rather go without the lost TP or the slower kill speed.

[Yinnyth]

I think that's part of the idea of the thief's knife though. Getting that 1 extra TH comes at a cost. If you want it on every mob, you're probably stuck wearing it the whole damned time unless you really don't care about TP.

Now if they were to allow us to magian it to a certain point, what should that certain point be? 100 DMG is obviously too high. 28 DMG is too low. What is the fair middle ground?

[Demon6324236]

http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/96/Thief%27s_Knife_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/2/29/Thokcha_description.png
If you want a new one in weapon form, simply make it a Rare item as the Thief's knife is, with the stats being the same as a Thokcha. It would basically be a Thief's knife +1, rare so you can not have both, and THF's are not requested to DW them. With 47 damage and 194 delay it fits what most +1s do, lower delay and higher damage, in this case it is a bit different, but not completely, as trials often change the levels of gear while keeping them rare and unable to wield both. I am sure SE could tie them together in that way, and with those kind of stats, it would not beat a Fire Thokcha, but it would be a ton better than what we have right now.

[Yinnyth]

So you're saying 47 DMG is the fair amount to raise thief's knife to? And how difficult should the trials be?

[Demon6324236]

That and perhaps the lower delay, though that part matters very slightly. Mainly yes, the DMG being raised to 46~48 or so would be good enough to make it less terrible, but not a leading DPS option.

Well knowing SE, it would be something like the additional effect trials for weapons probably, simply proc TH a few times. The additional effect weapon trials are done by effecting mobs with the effect on the weapon a certain number of times, all they would need to do is make the Thief's Knife trial the same way, simply proc TH, say, 300 times, on any mob type. Is it really super hard? No, but not many trials of the Magian really are, most are annoying at best, so this should be the same, a minor annoyance you push through.

[Lokithor]

The ironic thing about this whole discussion is that the effect of higher tiers of TH on a mob are of extremely marginal benefit beyond TH3. Often, though, it is perception that is more important, which is what keeps many Thf's using this POS dagger.

This only got worse when SE informed us that the odds of procing a TH+ on a mob was influenced by the current TH level of the Thf, which changed the problem from "I need to stick TH on this mob and then can gear swap into better DD gear" to "I need to keep all this TH+ crap equipped full time".

Really, it comes down to a simple question. What is the purpose of the job? If it is only to increase the odds of drops, then SE is right to have restrictions that keep Thf pigeonholed into that role. To make this meaningful, though, they really need to make the higher levels of TH actually DO SOMETHING that is measurable and significant. It's frustrating if your job is stuck with only one purpose and that one purpose is actually a lie.

IMO, they should scrap the whole TH+ proc system, keep the TH level static at the level applied and make those levels have a higher degree of influence on drops. The danger of this would be that big alliances would go back to the "swap in the thf just before the kill" model of alliance management. However, with the current end game, this is probably not a risk because there is very little of that main alliance and backups in use anymore.

If a change is needed to the dagger after the above changes are made, my preference would be to keep it as is and for SE to change dual wield so that you do not lose TP when you swap weapons in your off hand, just as you don't lose TP when you swap ammo. This would help to close the gap in damage capability between 2H and dual wielding jobs, bring a huge amount of tactics to dual wielding jobs and encourage a lot of content as people rush to obtain more weapons for off hand switching.

[Demon6324236]

If a change is needed to the dagger after the above changes are made, my preference would be to keep it as is and for SE to change dual wield so that you do not lose TP when you swap weapons in your off hand, just as you don't lose TP when you swap ammo. This would help to close the gap in damage capability between 2H and dual wielding jobs, bring a huge amount of tactics to dual wielding jobs and encourage a lot of content as people rush to obtain more weapons for off hand switching.Then people would start gear swapping in weapons for TPing and WSing all the time, probably not gonna see that happen.

[Elphy]

Now if you are fighting just a single mob, thats ok, but when doing something where you are fighting many mobs, the effect gets bigger over time, for instance Dyna, Salvage, Abyssea even, when you come to these cases, you really would rather go without the lost TP or the slower kill speed.

Well can't have your cake and eat it too. Thats how jobs get way too overpowered.

If that +1 TH means just that much to you, then you have to deal with the reduced att or the loss of TP. Like someone said earlier too, the 1 th on high lvl mobs has a marginal effect. So you basically need to choose your priorities.

Also if tp is really that important for emergency waltzes and such there is always reverse flourish.

[SpankWustler]

Thats how jobs get way too overpowered.

I think you'd really hit it off with the guy who said Aura Steal was an incredibly powerful ability.

[Elphy]

I think you'd really hit it off with the guy who said Aura Steal was an incredibly powerful ability.

Apparently logical arguements are not allowed here, sorry for that little taru

Ok thf can have a quick att speed, high dps, th, etc etc without having to swap out a thing. Who needs any other job, more than one piece of gear or skills anyway right. All jobs should be able to zerg and survive SE please, nerf the game more please!

[SpankWustler]

Apparently logical arguements are not allowed here, sorry for that little taru

Arguing that ~+1% to drop rate VS not equipping a horrible weapon is meant to be a trade-off is logical.

Arguing that having ~+1% to drop rate without a horrible weapon would be overpowered is kind of nuts.

[Nebo]

overpowered.

THF is not in any danger of becoming anything that would even dare to dream of one day being overpowered.

People just want THF because they want to see the highest number with those little enlight procs.

But even they know that getting the highest number is not going to make much of a difference on the drops for which you want it to make much of a difference.

The new TH system is just something SE did to shut Thieves up. To give us something we could see so that we would feel like we were actually contributing in the battle by applying higher levels of treasure hunter.

Which is a nice idea, because that was one of our chief complaints: That playing THF "properly" could essentially be done with Thief's knife, Two pieces of armor and one action to get on the enmity list. Literally nothing else is required desired.

The problem is that the system they implemented to address this issue sucks very much badly. Which is really beside the point because raising TH level from 3 to 12....doesn't really seem to do much of anything.

What were we talking about again? Thief's knife? Honestly, at this point...who cares? SE certainly doesn't.

Does anyone actually think SE is going to hear the frustration and fix THF in a meaningful way?

I don't.

[Zarchery]

I don't play THF seriously. I took it to 50 for the AF (I recently got it into my head that I wanted to collect all of the AF sets--I'm nearly done that little project). Is a Treasure Hunter -1 penalty (taken because you're using some knife other than the Thief's Knife) really that bad?

Also, if people are giving you a hard time because you didn't have Thief's Knife equipped, can't you bluff your way past that? How rigorously are people /checked? Carry a Thief's Knife but don't equip it. If someone catches you say "Oops I forgot" and equip it. Or failing that just switch to your better knife as soon as the fight starts? I'm just spitballing here. Maybe these are stupid ideas.

[Nebo]

Is a Treasure Hunter -1 penalty (taken because you're using some knife other than the Thief's Knife) really that bad?

It's probably the fact that the job sucks, its abilities suck, the TH system sucks, the way it functions sucks, etc more than TH-1 being "all that bad."

Its all bad.

[Zarchery]

It's probably the fact that the job sucks, its abilities suck, the TH system sucks, the way it functions sucks, etc more than TH-1 being "all that bad."

Its all bad.

I thought this thread was about the Thief's Knife.

[Karbuncle]

Well can't have your cake and eat it too. Thats how jobs get way too overpowered.

If that +1 TH means just that much to you, then you have to deal with the reduced att or the loss of TP. Like someone said earlier too, the 1 th on high lvl mobs has a marginal effect. So you basically need to choose your priorities.

Also if tp is really that important for emergency waltzes and such there is always reverse flourish.

If you think THF is good at anything you just suggested in your posts.. DPS, etc, You're right and wrong. Think of it this way, I'm going to use a Pokemon Analogy.

Thats right. Pokemon.

Mew has a Base Stat total of 100 Across all of his Stats.
Arceus has a Base Total of 120.

THF is Mew
WAR/MNK/DRK/DRG/EveryDDjob is Arceus

While there are varying degrees of power, and a Mew may be better than an Arceus simply because the Arceus got sh*tty IV's and the trainer is retarded and EV'd him wrong, Point for point, Arceus has more potential in Every field.

In the same way, Just because a THF Can be good, Doesn't mean point for point Every DD Job has far more potential. What this means is quite simple, THF Doesn't excell at anything, It isn't overpowered, and Giving us a replacement for THF's knife isn't going to break the job. You're slightly misguided in your ideals here.

More to the point, THF does not excel at DPS, it has no strong points. Its less useful in all of its fields behind some other job. Even Evasion tanking, a NIN has theoretically far more survival as /DNC, due to shadows, and etc. DPS - Any DD job ever. It just has Treasure Hunter.

So to sum it up, THF HAs potential in many fields, But its easily replaced by someone who can do it better. The only standing feature of the job is Treasure Hunter.

I hope i explained this pretty accurately, This is coming from a Thief with a 99 Mandau, Gear swaps for occassions your grandma thought of in a lucid dream about Elvis, and a long standing Love for the job. I'm not always right, but I always learn from my mistakes, and look up any and all info i can on the job, In all sources.

THF is mediocre, Treasure Hunter is the only thing that gets it invited, and replacing an outdated level 70 weapon wont break the job.

-For the record, as a stated in a previous post, Its not about "Not using it" when you're only wanted for TH, So if you want to do anything group related, You're going to be sacrificing your DPS, or you're not doing an event.

Sorry if this came off harsh, I know you're hearts in the right place, Its simply you are wrong in this instance.

[Nebo]

I thought this thread was about the Thief's Knife.

It is.

How do I put this? Why does the weapon have to suck this bad for a stat that sucks so bad on a job that sucks so bad?

TH+1 is something that is likely to be nigh undetectable in a statistical analysis. The idea that the weapon HAS to be weak to yield that minor an increase is more than a little absurd.

As a mater of fact, I would go as far to say that Treasure Hunter itself is not so powerful a trait that it warrants the restrictions, timers and general lunacy attached to the rest of THF traits and abilities.

Because we HAVE to use it to max TH, Thief's Knife is just a constant reminder of that big SE thumb on THF's forehead that screams "Aurasteal is too powerful for you!"

[Riggs]

i've pretty much been full time thf for 4 + years, i very seldom use thf knife as thf beyond a certain point seems to make little or no difference. Take dynamis, i solo approx 170 coins a run, i macro in and out thf gear, however some times i forget but it seems that after thf 5 the drops will be the same as thf 8, it seems completly random, maybe it would be different if mobs did not have a set number of drop slots and the higher you proc thf the more it would drop

[Elphy]

If you think THF is good at anything you just suggested in your posts.. DPS, etc, You're right and wrong. Think of it this way, I'm going to use a Pokemon Analogy.

Thats right. Pokemon.

Mew has a Base Stat total of 100 Across all of his Stats.
Arceus has a Base Total of 120.

THF is Mew
WAR/MNK/DRK/DRG/EveryDDjob is Arceus

While there are varying degrees of power, and a Mew may be better than an Arceus simply because the Arceus got sh*tty IV's and the trainer is retarded and EV'd him wrong, Point for point, Arceus has more potential in Every field.

In the same way, Just because a THF Can be good, Doesn't mean point for point Every DD Job has far more potential. What this means is quite simple, THF Doesn't excell at anything, It isn't overpowered, and Giving us a replacement for THF's knife isn't going to break the job. You're slightly misguided in your ideals here.

More to the point, THF does not excel at DPS, it has no strong points. Its less useful in all of its fields behind some other job. Even Evasion tanking, a NIN has theoretically far more survival as /DNC, due to shadows, and etc. DPS - Any DD job ever. It just has Treasure Hunter.

So to sum it up, THF HAs potential in many fields, But its easily replaced by someone who can do it better. The only standing feature of the job is Treasure Hunter.

I hope i explained this pretty accurately, This is coming from a Thief with a 99 Mandau, Gear swaps for occassions your grandma thought of in a lucid dream about Elvis, and a long standing Love for the job. I'm not always right, but I always learn from my mistakes, and look up any and all info i can on the job, In all sources.

THF is mediocre, Treasure Hunter is the only thing that gets it invited, and replacing an outdated level 70 weapon wont break the job.

-For the record, as a stated in a previous post, Its not about "Not using it" when you're only wanted for TH, So if you want to do anything group related, You're going to be sacrificing your DPS, or you're not doing an event.

Sorry if this came off harsh, I know you're hearts in the right place, Its simply you are wrong in this instance.

I wasnt at all suggesting that thf was good at any of the above. What I was saying is that the people who are constantly complaining that se needs to make thf a major dps job, or anything of that sort are being a little short sighted. Whatever job you have you have to prioritize what you want to do in the situations. Granted in a pt you are going to be used for th, just like a whm is going to be used for heals and a blm for nukes. Its situational. And you are bringing th to the pt just like sam is bringing dps. But sams dont complain about being only dps. But asking for thf to be a dd + have treasure hunter + high survivability + etc etc just ends up making a job that is overpowered.

Hence you cant have your cake and eat it too.

This game is designed with group play in mind so being pigeonholed into a roll is kindda the name of the game. If they want to equalize the playing field thats fine but super powering certain jobs like they have been doing recently is what really causes an imbalance. If when soloing with thf you want high th or high dps you need to prioritise. Just like a dd who wants to solo may have to give up some dps or whatnot if they want to sub a job for heals. Its because they had to prioritise. Not sure if Im making sense but again I see this as a moot arguement.

[SpankWustler]

I wasnt at all suggesting that thf was good at any of the above. What I was saying is that the people who are constantly complaining that se needs to make thf a major dps job, or anything of that sort are being a little short sighted. Whatever job you have you have to prioritize what you want to do in the situations. Granted in a pt you are going to be used for th, just like a whm is going to be used for heals and a blm for nukes. Its situational. And you are bringing th to the pt just like sam is bringing dps. But sams dont complain about being only dps. But asking for thf to be a dd + have treasure hunter + high survivability + etc etc just ends up making a job that is overpowered.

Gearing for damage is often very complex. What a Samurai uses in Legion might be totally different than what a Samurai uses on Arch Dyamis Lord might be totally different than what a Samurai uses on a Meeble Burrows Boss.

Gearing for and totally focusing on Treasure Hunter involves three pieces of equipment and, preferably, a second or third account that isn't needed as a mediocre White Mage/Summoner/Bard/etc. so a whole player isn't occupied by single-wielding a Thief's knife. That's how Treasure Hunter is optimized against anything and everything, forever.

You have a good point on a conceptual level, but on a practical level, you're comparing apples to a glass of urine with "Apple Juice" written on it by a confused Development Bro. If focusing on Treasure Hunter were as involved or complex and difficult to equip for as focusing on beating a thing to death with a thing, the situation might be very different.

In the interest of helping Darkseid complete his Anti-Life Equation, though, I'll add that even upgrading Thief's Knife wouldn't change any of this very much.

[Karbuncle]

Which is also kinda why i think "upgrading" A Thief's knife is the wrong path to take. an Accessory replacement would be the most desirable and easy to do, far less time involved.

Still, Spanky is correct. Now, I've made a thousand THF Suggestions, some for Damage, and a f**kton for Utility upgrades that give THF a unique or advantages spot in a part, not just as a TH Whore. Plain and simple, DPS Wont help the job too much, it could use a small damage boost, but COR Gets by just fine with its damage because it has utility. if THF Could have this utility, it too could be welcome in a part.

I wish i could bring up any of the thousands of THF Suggestion threads for you to show you my ideas... In fact, I might...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13246-Thief-Suggestion-Thread-58371-Traps-and-Bombs.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13211-The-THF-Master-Suggestion-Thread-Compilation.-Read-Contribute!

[Nebo]

I wasnt at all suggesting that thf was good at any of the above. What I was saying is that the people who are constantly complaining that se needs to make thf a major dps job, or anything of that sort are being a little short sighted. Whatever job you have you have to prioritize what you want to do in the situations. Granted in a pt you are going to be used for th, just like a whm is going to be used for heals and a blm for nukes. Its situational. And you are bringing th to the pt just like sam is bringing dps. But sams dont complain about being only dps. But asking for thf to be a dd + have treasure hunter + high survivability + etc etc just ends up making a job that is overpowered.

Are you really comparing something like WHM's ability to heal to Treasure Hunter?

Treasure Hunter is not something to base a job role around. It's a weak passive job trait. You can try to feel like you are contributing to a battle by showing your party members "SEE guys! I are RAISING TREASURE HUNTER!!!" But in reality, you aren't doing much of anything....annnnnd it's not useful on an alarming amount of content.

This is also why SE gave THF those useless enmity abilities that no one wants them for.

A WHM's ability to heal is not only extremely powerful, based on several gear sets, timing, player skill and strategy...but it is useful on nearly every content the game has to offer. Normally I would try to think of something witty to say to that but Spank put it pretty well:


you're comparing apples to a glass of urine with "Apple Juice" written on it by a confused Development Bro


This quote leads me to believe you have very little experience with THF:


asking for thf to be a dd + have treasure hunter + high survivability + etc etc just ends up making a job that is overpowered.

People seem to forget this, but there was a time when THF was one of the best DD's in the game, and sought after by many groups for SATA lines and Closing Skill Chains.

The issue is that the game has evolved and THF has not.

There was also a time when THF was the best at making gil, but RMT's exlpoited its abilities, SE took them away, and never gave anything of value in return to replace them.

Evasion does not equal high survivablity. 80% evade rate is the cap for everyone. Lots of jobs that can reach the evade rate cap are better DD's than THF, and posses better survivability tools.

But to respond to your point, THF really can't survive well against anything that would put them in a pigeon hole such that treasure hunter is the only thing of value they bring. Crazy AOE damage, AGA spam, High Acuracy and Atack/Base DMG?

The reality is that THF is also fairly low on this totem pole as well.

For THF to be a DD + Treasure Hunter + High evasion would not be overpowered because:


It's DD would still be weak relative to other DD's
Treasure Hunter is not powerful enough
Physical Evasion + paper thin defense has several limitations


That said, I don't think many THFs are clamoring to be a king DPS job. Certainly not many I've seen on these boards.

But I think the general consensus is that we WOULD like to have SOMETHING that is worth a shit.

This whole "Thief's Knife is supposed to be weak, because it gives TH+1" argument needs to die in a fire. As if somehow TH+1 is some super godly stat that warrants a piece of shit weapon be mandatory on a piece of shit DD to perform its piece of shit TH "job role."

It's ridiculous.

[Nebo]

All that said, I don't think updating THF's knife is the answer. It won't change anything.

Replacing it with an accessory is a fine start, but for the system to be TRULY designed not to gimp THF's already pretty crappy dagger damage, it would have to allow offhand hits to raise treasure hunter level.

If not, we're still going to be forced to single wield a dagger in any case we want to raise treasure hunter to a higher level.

[Ryce]

Just give us a new lvl 99 dagger called Treasure Hunter's Dagger, give it comparable AH dagger stats and TH+2, and be done with it.

This argument is exhausting. THF is a fine job for evasion tanking, hate management, DPS, and farming. There are better options for pretty much everything. Oh well. If we're gonna be "TH only", just give us a little more TH on a big boy dagger and shut us up. We still wont want THF in challenging events, just like we don't want RDM, etc. We'll invite them when we feel we've covered our bases, and TH can't hurt.

[Karbuncle]

Giving us another TH Knife would lead to dual Wielding them. Problem not solved. Again, an Accessory would be best, and with the latent effect described :)

Though the argument is exhausting... Its necessary.

[Byrth]

I think upgrading could work. They could make it like Relic trials, where you can't have two of the same rare item with the same name in your inventory. This dodges the dualwielding problem and allows them to upgrade it to a level that reflects the DPS hit that TK was at level 75, which would basically be a base damage of 43.

The trials could even be something stupid and simple, like:
70 -> 75 : Retrieve 5 Beastcoins
75 -> 80 : Retrieve 5 Silver Beastcoins
80 -> 85 : Retrieve 5 Mythril Beastcoins
85 -> 90 : Retrieve 5 Gold Beastcoins
90 -> 95 : Retrieve 5 Platinum Beastcoins
No 95 -> 99 trial necessary, as it was a level 70 knife when the cap was 75 and D43/194 delay isn't unreasonable for a level 95 weapon.

[Karbuncle]

Still think that wouldn't solve the problem of being forced to use a still heinously gimp weapon in general. Unless we replace it with an accessory, the problem of it still being hideously mediocre compared to any other weaponry, and the problem of swapping it in/out if applicable in many enemy events... Still persist, just less so.

Personally Byrth, Your suggestion was originally exactly what i suggested in the thief's knife thread, but the more i thought about it, upgraded or not, it'd still be sh*t compared to even a level 85/90 version of Flame Kila. So the idea of replacing it with an accessory would thankfully eliminate that terrible weapon once and for all.

Basically, I'd like it not to just be changed back to status quo circa 75 cap where its only slightly "sh*t" compared to the other weapons, but to replace the need for this archaic idea THF should have to gimp itself in order to perform its main function. I know this exists to some extent on other jobs, like a WAR sacrificing defense for offense... and so forth. but THF already sacrifices everything for Treasure Hunter, the key Job Trait keeping this job mediocre, it shouldn't have to also sacrifice its offense for it further by pigeon holding it with a weapon to be glued to its subhand in all events.

This may sound a little... eh... But I'll try to assure you, I'm not flustered so much as ... explainative? That should be a word. I'm wishing to explain why i think an Accessory replacement would be the ideal circumstance, as it can easily be equipped and removed similar to other Treasure hunter pieces, without much lose to DPS, or TP.

[Byrth]

Yeah, but I still suggest this because historically this is what SE believes is acceptable for THF. SE wants THF to have to choose between their DPS and their TH level, which they have now shown on several pieces of otherwise-crappy equipment.

The justification for upgrading Thief's Knife to 95 cannot be "to make the DPS of Thief's Knife combos better." It has to be "to restore the same degree of DPS loss that Thief's Knife offered at level 75."

[Nebo]

. SE wants THF to have to choose between their DPS and their TH level

THF already does this by selecting Thief as their main job on the selection screen.

I just can't get behind the idea that Treasure Hunter + 1 should require the gimping of THF damage with an even crappier dagger.

THF damage is already pretty weak. We have given up quite a lot for the almighty treasure hunter already (and it's not worth it, imo). Making a weak dagger required on top of all that is not reasonable.

For what it's worth, I think you are right. I do think that it is SE's philosophy that THF should have to gimp their damage even further to raise TH level. Especially when you consider that TH cannot proc on any offhand hits or multi hits. That means the best, most efficient way to TH a mob is to single wield Thief's Knife.

Not only did they design the system to require this crappy weapon, they made it so that you have to use ONLY this crappy weapon to most efficiently perform this role.

I also don't think they will listen to any of the reasonable suggestions regarding this matter or even care about the frustration that caused the discussions.

Really, I think we vent just to make ourselves feel better, because no one at Square Enix is reading, listening or caring about THF at all. I guarantee you that.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah, but I still suggest this because historically this is what SE believes is acceptable for THF. SE wants THF to have to choose between their DPS and their TH level, which they have now shown on several pieces of otherwise-crappy equipment.

The justification for upgrading Thief's Knife to 95 cannot be "to make the DPS of Thief's Knife combos better." It has to be "to restore the same degree of DPS loss that Thief's Knife offered at level 75."

Yah i understand where you're coming from. You're going the logical route based on square's track record. Your idea is likely more realistic an implementation than my accessory idea (Even though mine would take a lot less time to implement), mostly do to the fact you're correct... even though the devs thinking that is grade A Retarded, you're correct :\

[Twille]

It's long past time that the Thief's Knife get an upgrade. THF's are expected to proc TH, to do that efficiently you need all possible TH+ gear available, including our sad excuse of a weapon, the Thief's Knife.
Find a way to upgrade this weapon please. :)

[Arcon]

THF's are expected to proc TH, [..]

I'd hate to play with the people you do.

[Karbuncle]

I'd hate to play with the people you do.

Pretty much any and all Pick up groups will want you in the scrub party trying to TH Everything as best you can lol. For any real event that is.

I mean, in stuff like Voidwatch no one gives a FK, but for Meebles, and Legion, where TH Actually effects something... as a THF Your priority is going to be Treasure hunter.

Sad but true :(, Though I've been lucky enough to have friends a lot of the time who don't just TH Whore me, but there are still a fair amount of people with Epeen Syndrome who work more on "BUT THF SHUD BE TH ONRY" even in the company i call acquaintances.

[Arcon]

Pretty much any and all Pick up groups will want you in the scrub party trying to TH Everything as best you can lol. For any real event that is.

Obviously, because that's what THF is best at in a group setting. But you don't need a Thief's Knife for it. Whether you apply TH6 once or 7 and upgrade it to 8, not only will it not make a difference, no one will even care or notice. Hence, you don't need a Thief's Knife.

And if you yourself are that paranoid that you think a Thief's Knife will make a difference, then use it. Not like your DPS matters at all in a group setting. The difference between using the best daggers in the game versus a Thief's Knife will be hardly parseable in events like Legion or Odin's Chamber II. If you care for the difference between a Thief's Knife and Aluh Jambiya in there, you really have no right to accuse others of epeen syndrome, because it means you care about increasing your own damage by amounts that have no effect on the outcome of the battle and only matter for your own statistics, not for the group as a whole.

Both you and SE can do something about this non-issue. You can toss that shitty dagger and enjoy increased inventory size and a less stressful ingame life. What SE can do is not to upgrade it, but instead remove it from the game. Putting TH on a dagger was a stupid decision even at 75, and it would be just as stupid to maintain it, because unless the game dies soon, new weapons will always be released, and the Thief's Knife will keep falling behind. Would you want to keep releasing new upgrades for it continuously for years to come?

[Rustic]

Both you and SE can do something about this non-issue. You can toss that shitty dagger and enjoy increased inventory size and a less stressful ingame life. What SE can do is not to upgrade it, but instead remove it from the game. Putting TH on a dagger was a stupid decision even at 75, and it would be just as stupid to maintain it, because unless the game dies soon, new weapons will always be released, and the Thief's Knife will keep falling behind. Would you want to keep releasing new upgrades for it continuously for years to come?

I'm just going to mention this one here, though.

You -could- easily release improved weapons with TH+1, the same way there's better weapons for almost any stat a THF cares for in the game. The reason TK is what it is? It's the only one of it's kind. You want to be best cook? Hocho. You want to be best stabber for shinies? TK. That's just how it is. The difference is that you don't generally have to cook mithkabobs in combat, while using TK involves stabbing things.

If they want people to make the choice, the upgrade should make it obvious that you're either there to slap a huge TH bonus on the mob or to stab it in the face for uber damage- or that you can ladle both on in reasonable amounts given some of the stat budget for the "Thief's Knife +1" is devoted to that TH bonus. As it is, S-E is saying that even one additional level of TH is worth a huge downgrade in DPS.

Personally, I'm still for the "Golden Gloves" approach. Make a H2H weapon with +2/+3 TH, a big ol' Steal bonus, and Gilfinder for THF. At that point, it becomes abundantly clear what your THF is there for and people can quit complaining about how TK drops their DPS, because the Gloves would make it absolutely clear that if you want max TH, you aren't there to kill the mob, you're there to pry more loot from it's cooling corpse.

[Nebo]

I also have to wonder, though, if all of this was by design. It's pretty crappy design even by FFXI development standards.

Did they envision a gimp THF mule single wielding Thief's knife to upgrade TH? Or did they say "allowing TH to proc on multi hits and offhand is too powerful," (ENSPELL II FOR GREAT JUSTICE) without really thinking about the implications of single wielding being the most effective way to raise TH level.

Do they WANT Thief's knife to be this weak at 99 cap, or do they just not care or have enough resources to remedy the situation.

Every response we get from them is that "it would cost too much to change this." It's very likely they don't have the budget to do much of anything that isn't on their internal road map.

[Arcon]

Do they WANT Thief's knife to be this weak at 99 cap, or do they just not care or have enough resources to remedy the situation.

I can't speak for them, but I would bet they just don't care.

[Karbuncle]

Obviously, because that's what THF is best at in a group setting. But you don't need a Thief's Knife for it. Whether you apply TH6 once or 7 and upgrade it to 8, not only will it not make a difference, no one will even care or notice. Hence, you don't need a Thief's Knife.

And if you yourself are that paranoid that you think a Thief's Knife will make a difference, then use it. Not like your DPS matters at all in a group setting. The difference between using the best daggers in the game versus a Thief's Knife will be hardly parseable in events like Legion or Odin's Chamber II. If you care for the difference between a Thief's Knife and Aluh Jambiya in there, you really have no right to accuse others of epeen syndrome, because it means you care about increasing your own damage by amounts that have no effect on the outcome of the battle and only matter for your own statistics, not for the group as a whole.

Both you and SE can do something about this non-issue. You can toss that shitty dagger and enjoy increased inventory size and a less stressful ingame life. What SE can do is not to upgrade it, but instead remove it from the game. Putting TH on a dagger was a stupid decision even at 75, and it would be just as stupid to maintain it, because unless the game dies soon, new weapons will always be released, and the Thief's Knife will keep falling behind. Would you want to keep releasing new upgrades for it continuously for years to come?

Its not that I think it matters, Its that other people do think it matters.

Maybe you're idealistic, ignorant, or just very lucky, but there are groups, many of which i've encountered, who want/tell you to use Thief's knife, or they'll get someone who will. Rather i toss it or not will only effect my involvement in any endgame activity people regularly shout for, as many of the times, Yes, They do want you wearing that Knife.

Fulltime now that SE has confirmed the higher your base TH, the quicker you'll go up. (Relative to lower, etc), on top of the fact stupid people rarely listen to reason like "The difference between 7/8/9 is so low you'll never see it in your lifetime".

So, If we lived in a completely ideal game where people listened to reason, your idea? Fucking marvelous. but we dont, so its not. Sorcy Archy :\

[Arcon]

Maybe you're idealistic, ignorant, or just very lucky, but there are groups, many of which i've encountered, who want/tell you to use Thief's knife, or they'll get someone who will.

I say lucky then, because I've never ever had anyone tell me that. I've also never had anyone even ask me if I owned one.

What events do you do where someone needs a Thief and wants them to fulltime TH? I already said why it doesn't matter in Legion and Odin's Chamber II (unless you care for epeen), so Meeble Burrows remains. How many shout groups for that have you had that forced you to come on a TH-fulltiming Thief? If it's a lot, I'd rather think you're unlucky instead of me being lucky.

[Karbuncle]

I say lucky then, because I've never ever had anyone tell me that. I've also never had anyone even ask me if I owned one.

What events do you do where someone needs a Thief and wants them to fulltime TH? I already said why it doesn't matter in Legion and Odin's Chamber II (unless you care for epeen), so Meeble Burrows remains. How many shout groups for that have you had that forced you to come on a TH-fulltiming Thief? If it's a lot, I'd rather think you're unlucky instead of me being lucky.

IDK, Seems pretty common that most people expect THF To perform their key task. Maybe You just really get people who give no f**ks lol. Or your server has an IQ Rating slightly higher than Asura.. Which, incidentally, Probably isn't all the hard.

I'd say in Legion it likely matters more than one would suspect. A lot of people want most of the drops that come from lesser bosses, Including Fulad-Zereh, and all the other multi-Million gil items that are affected by TH, and in those situations, most people aren't wanting you for anything but TH, because they want the drops.

They don't care if its a 0.5% Higher chance, they want that 0.5%!

Still, relying entirely on the other peoples intelligence seems like a lazy cop-out solution, just replace the D*mn thing with an accessory and make everyone happy. THF's and idiots with misconceptions on the potency of TH Alike.

[Nebo]

I honestly think this Thief's knife issue as with most of THF's issues tie in to the more fundamental problem of the development team's lack of understanding of THF, current game dynamics, and the way it's played.

We say all the time that treasure hunter is the reason that we can't have nice things, but the only thing I have ever heard SE say that about was subtle blow. And that was relatively recent with the TH adjustment.

Treasure Hunter itself really can't be a significant increase in endgame drops because that would break the model and shorten the life of endgame events. No bueno for SE.

So the idea that treasure hunter itself is a powerful enough trait to justify the weakened state of FFXI THF is in incorrect, imo. Rather, it's just that Treasure Hunter is the only thing of value that a THF offers to a group anymore.

This is NOT and indication of how super duper awesome is the almighty Treasure Hunter. It is just an indication of how poorly they designed the Thief job in FFXI.

I'm pretty sure they still think that THF is this masterful enmity specialist, a powerful positional DD with party cooperation that can pick locks, steal all kinds of wonderful things, evade all the attacks, and make all the treasures rain from the heavens.

For the most part, in the game's early life, that was true.

I'm not sure that they really know how horrible they have made most of the the things on that list over the years....

...eh they probably do. After 75, they keep adding garbage like conspirator, despoil, Bully in its early forms "TAKE THAT RMT SCUM!"

...or maybe we are right and the just don't care. Or just have an unnatural, intense hatred for the job.

[Karbuncle]

While they'll never come out and say it... They pretty much hate THF And intend to make it bad because of Treasure Hunter. Similar to RDM Soloing the world at 75, THF was hugely used by RMT At one point. Basically, When they nerf something into the ground, they're not digging it back up. THF was burried alongside RDM, but the reason THF isn't in the graveyard entirely is because its one hand was sticking above ground, with an Assassin Armlet and a Thief's knife in hand, next to a Tombstone labled "Here lies Thief".

Someone should paint that.

Regardless, considering the whole "Aura Steal is too powerful bro" and "Absorb-Attribute" Fiasco, alongside "You cant have Subtle blow because Treasure hunter", and all the other nonsense-ass abilities we've gotten (Aside from Bully, Thank you Square :D), Its just plain to see they feel comfortable with thief's current position in FFXI... Mediocre pile of crap with a highly overrated job trait. or more realistically in their eyes "Enmity control experts", which is bullsh*t, and they've all but admitted how bullsh*t it is once they acknowledged how Enmity currently works is garbage as fk, Crowning us "Enmity Control Experts" is like crowning us "Masters of Potato Farming", or "Lord of all the cuttlefish". Useless title in todays FFXI.

I think when they assemble a party of 6 to Beta-test things, they probably go WAR/WAR/WAR/COR/BRD/WHM, and just forget the other jobs exist, and then call it a day and release it. They probably throw SAM in there now and again, just so they can determine another way to buff it.

ANYWAY. Depressing assumptions aside. I have high hopes for the future of THF, once Enmity is reworked, maybe some fights will go back to like old-school Ixion, 1 tank, TA, etc... Sure it was slow sometimes... But it was more exciting and strategic than "Buff x4 > Punch until dies". I mean, I'll be the first to welcome a scenario that makes Collaborate and Trick attack useful.

(P.S Collaborate/Accomplice suggestion thread -> should look at it, cause those abilities should be adjusted to match a faster pace battle as well)

[Infidi]

I thought I read awhile ago someone did some testing and there's really no significant worth to get TH past level 3. I mean it adds SOME to it past 3, but its negligible? I don't remember exactly. Anyone care to inform me? XD

[Arcon]

I thought I read awhile ago someone did some testing and there's really no significant worth to get TH past level 3. I mean it adds SOME to it past 3, but its negligible? I don't remember exactly. Anyone care to inform me? XD

Some of the testing results were in this thread, a few pages ago. They were by no means comprehensive, but strongly indicative.

[Infidi]

Ah,ok, thank you. ^^

[Rustic]

Some of the testing results were in this thread, a few pages ago. They were by no means comprehensive, but strongly indicative.

If me sitting there for literally days picking on Mimas are any indication, TH 4+ happened all too often to coincide with me snagging an axe from the fellow to make me not think it doesn't have a correlation. Most times, I had at least TH4 or even TH5 for the drop to occur, with one case of TH3.

[Arcon]

If me sitting there for literally days picking on Mimas are any indication, TH 4+ happened all too often to coincide with me snagging an axe from the fellow to make me not think it doesn't have a correlation. Most times, I had at least TH4 or even TH5 for the drop to occur, with one case of TH3.

That is not just not indicative, it's actually entirely meaningless.

[Zagen]

If me sitting there for literally days picking on Mimas are any indication, TH 4+ happened all too often to coincide with me snagging an axe from the fellow to make me not think it doesn't have a correlation. Most times, I had at least TH4 or even TH5 for the drop to occur, with one case of TH3.

For your tests to have any sort of value they'd have to at minimum be like this:
1,000 kills with TH 0
1,000 kills with TH 1
1,000 kills with TH 2
1,000 kills with TH 3
and so on

Otherwise your findings are anecdotal at best. As far as I'm aware no one has done that sort of testing since the 75 cap days.

[Rustic]

For your tests to have any sort of value they'd have to at minimum be like this:
Otherwise your findings are anecdotal at best. As far as I'm aware no one has done that sort of testing since the 75 cap days.

Fair enough. Been up there for two weeks or so farming elementals and stabbing Mimas in the junk (I'm a Tarutaru, after all) any time he pops, so...figured I'd mention it. I know the Huge Moth Axe has a truly cruddy drop rate, so I've been checking logs after each drop to see what level of TH I ended up with after a kill.