Religion in Vana'diel [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Fusionx

02-21-2013, 01:51 AM

Today with the post about Adoulin it was revealed that the Sacred City alone has 5 different religions. I'm not deeply religious or anything, but I do love me some lore! I would love to know more about these.

Eimert Church (believers in Altana)
Church of San d’Oria (believers in Altana)
Island Animitism
Taleekeeperism
Tavnazian (believers in Altana)

Interesting that there are 3 different Altana based relgions.

The only reference to the Eimert Church I've found is on the description of the Winged Plaque (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Winged_Plaque)- Authorized by the Eimert Church for use in worship of the Dawn Goddess.

Taleekeeperism (perhaps Talekeeperism?) is probably based on the belief of Galkan reincarnation.

Island Animitism sounds like it could be close to Animalism which is the worship of animals. Perhaps this is related to the Naakuals of Ulbuka?

Curious if there is any other info out there on how these religions differ from each other or perhaps SE could poke the FFXI lore guy for us.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-21-2013, 02:08 AM

Church of San d’Oria (believers in Altana)
Tavnazian (believers in Altana)
Curious if there is any other info out there on how these religions differ from each other

Delved into during the Chains of Promathia storyline.

Rustic

02-22-2013, 03:39 AM

Delved into during the Chains of Promathia storyline.

IIRC, some of the JP-only sourcebooks have at least given a bit more info, but of course, translation fail.

Bahamut

02-23-2013, 12:57 AM

I don't want to spoil anything, but I always took the differances in the religions of Altanna as just different points of evolved views by each of these nations because of what timeline they were cut off from the mainstream of thier relgions and the absence of thier goddess. One prime example is Tavnazian being cut off from the mainstream because of the war, so it took another evolved direction then San d'Oria, which had the leadership of the church that used to oversee both San d'Oria and Tavnazian before the war. There was no goddess around telling them what she felt or thought, so they all had to guess what Altanna was thinking of how she wanted them to live and worship her.

There also was little secrets of the truth the church leadership kept from thier members pre war, which also is a good way to have split up the views between San d'Oria and Tavnazian beleifs as seen in the promy missions, where you get to find out the truth and be a part of it.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-23-2013, 01:13 AM

One prime example is Tavnazian being cut off from the mainstream because of the war, so it took another evolved direction then San d'Oria

Except there's already a history of San d'Oria and Tavnazia going to war with each other over religious differences well before the Crystal War. And there's really not much left of the Tavnazian cathedral (or much else) after the war to "evolve."

There was no goddess around telling them what she felt or thought

Her incarnation lives in Heavens Tower, as any Windurstian can tell you.

Meyi

02-27-2013, 10:59 AM

Don't forget the Tonberry and Uggalepih.

Alhanelem

02-27-2013, 12:37 PM

Funny I always thought the Galka took Altana as their god, and the Talekeeper was something else- revered, but not a deity.

Zhronne

02-27-2013, 05:09 PM

Taleekeeperism (perhaps Talekeeperism?) is probably based on the belief of Galkan reincarnation.
I found this kinda funny.
I mean, it's not like they "believe" in reincarnation, they actually DO REINCARNATE, it's kinda different.
Is that a religion? Uhm... I never seen it like that until I read it listed as "religion" in the mentioned Adoulin lore page.

Galkas (talekeeper included) do believe in Altana, does talekeeperism allow for multiple religions?

Altough I guess for Altana as well it's not a matter of believing, of "having faith" like in our real world. In Vana'diel Altana does really exist and is a real, tangible entity, even though she has never been seen in the game.

Demon6324236

02-27-2013, 06:57 PM

Altough I guess for Altana as well it's not a matter of believing, of "having faith" like in our real world. In Vana'diel Altana does really exist and is a real, tangible entity, even though she has never been seen in the game.Though I am not religious myself, is that not exactly what religion is? The belief of a being of which is super natural and is not ever really seen, but rather believed in? I mean if you take something like Christianity, where there is god, while he speaks to us humans he has never shown a true form of his own. It seems as though Altana is no different, never showing herself, and people believe in her. Surely we adventurers are special, we go on journeys and travels to see many amazing things, but I think not every person in Vana can say they are 100% certain she exists, as they have not had their lives touched in such a way as us adventurers have.

I don't know, just my thoughts on the matter. Seems as though what you described is exactly what religion is, and a massive part of religion in my view is believing, because most people in Vana have not seen real proof that Altana exists in the first place so far as I know.

Kuraire

02-27-2013, 07:16 PM

I'm with Zhronne here I think reincartion must be viewed as more of a fact within the Galkan community as least.

With Taleekeeperism I'm thinking more on the lines of they believe in a existence of a Talekeeper somewhere in the world. Maybe no Talekeepers have been among the Adoulin population for a long time and with such little contact with the middle lands over the years maybe people there are having to have a little faith that there is one somewhere. There could even be the possibility that a Talekeeper can't be born among them, is there a distinction between Ouschrahd Galka and Zepwell Galka in that respect?
It could even be a simple scam of someone pretending to be the Talekeeper himself, or even someone saying they have a spiritual connection so can speak for him. Random out on a limb thought, maybe someone is convincing non Galkas they can reincarnate if they believe in Talekeeperism.

I'm really interested in the Island Animitism though, the worship of animals makes sense with with the whole untamed parts of Ulbuka. As Fusionx suggested having people worship Naakuals seems logical. It would be interesting for us since I'm guessing they will be mobs we will be aiming to kill at some point. We might be making a nice chunk of the population a tad annoyed.

Not forgetting there is also a population of Dragoons over in Adoulin and if the one we've met already is anything to go by their Wyverns are a tad more mature than our ones are maybe Island Animitism plays some part in their lives too.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-27-2013, 11:17 PM

I found this kinda funny.
I mean, it's not like they "believe" in reincarnation, they actually DO REINCARNATE, it's kinda different.

Old galkas go away, young galkas shows up, with no memories of the old galkas. The Talekeeper says they're reincarnated from the old one. The Talekeeper knows this because the Talekeeper says so.

And nobody here has seen the top of Revelation Rock, if that's even where this "reincarnation" really happens.

Camate

03-01-2013, 04:25 AM

Greetings scholars and theologists of Vana’diel!

We managed to grab a hold of the lore team to get some insight into the information regarding religion that was found in the recently posted "The Sacred City of Adoulin (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/9905/detail.html)."

While it might seem that Animitism is close to Animalism, it is actually referring to the Animist religion that is found across the continent of Ulbuka.

Long ago, the people who inhabited Ulbuka spoke of the existence of a mysterious power found on the continent known as Ergon. Their belief was that elementals inhabited the plants, earth, lakes, air, and everything that makes up the continent. With that said, Animitism has no direct relation to the Naakuals of Ulbuka. One interesting thing to note is that the Mithra from the Gha Naboh Matriarchate in the south also have a very similar belief system.

Also, in regards to Talekeeperism, this is a kind of philosophy that only Galka embrace, and is somewhat different from an actual religion.

Zhronne

03-01-2013, 04:37 AM

Though I am not religious myself, is that not exactly what religion is? The belief of a being of which is super natural and is not ever really seen, but rather believed in?
It's a bit different here.
I mean, we have ultranatural entities that talk about Altana, not just a book written by human beings, and other human beings claiming to have seen miracles.
If you see Vana'diel reality as a dicotomy between Good (Altana) and Evil (Promathia) you can compare that to the christian view of God and Devil.
Thing is in our world nobody has ever been able to demonstrate wether any of the two exists, or doesn't exist.
In Vana'diel you actually DO FIGHT against Promathia, which is another god just like Altana. Like Yin and Yang.
If one exists it's pretty much likely the other does too and it's not just a myth made up by humans.

That's what I meant with the subtle difference, but yeah, of course you're very right and there are a lot of similarities with religions in the real world.

Still I can't help but find it funny to consider Talkeeperism a religion. I mean, culture? Tribal folklore? But they do not "believe" in reincarnation, they DO reincarnate. If anything they believe in Altana like 99% of living beigns in Vana'diel, so yeah, it's a bit strange to talk about Talekeeperism as if it's a religion.
It's a social-cultural heritage of a minority lol, not a religion in my view.

Zhronne

03-01-2013, 04:39 AM

Also, in regards to Talekeeperism, this is kind of philosophy that only Galka embrace, and is somewhat different from an actual religion.
^!!
Exactely what I meant :D

Thanks for the insight Camate ^^

Phafi

03-01-2013, 05:48 AM

This thread needs more Fernehalwes.

Demon6324236

03-01-2013, 07:28 AM

If you see Vana'diel reality as a dicotomy between Good (Altana) and Evil (Promathia) you can compare that to the christian view of God and Devil.
Thing is in our world nobody has ever been able to demonstrate wether any of the two exists, or doesn't exist.
In Vana'diel you actually DO FIGHT against Promathia, which is another god just like Altana. Like Yin and Yang.
If one exists it's pretty much likely the other does too and it's not just a myth made up by humans.Thats part of what I meant though, that fight in particular for instance, we fought Promathia, lore wise a single adventurer and a few friends fought Promathia, but no one else really knows. An adventurer going around saying they fought and killed the Twilight god would be like me going around my neighborhood telling everyone that last week I fought and killed the Devil. Its something you have no proof of, that at best you and 10 other people know about because they were there. Basically we know Altana is real, we know Promathia is real, between CoP and WotG I believe both of those are confirmed, however to the rest of the normal inhabitants of Vana, they have never seen these things, so they cant say for sure it does.

Rwolf

03-01-2013, 10:22 AM

While it might seem that Animitism is close to Animalism, it is actually referring to the Animist religion that is found across the continent of Ulbuka.

Long ago, the people who inhabited Ulbuka spoke of the existence of a mysterious power found on the continent known as Ergon. Their belief was that elementals inhabited the plants, earth, lakes, air, and everything that makes up the continent. With that said, Animitism has no direct relation to the Naakuals of Ulbuka. One interesting thing to note is that the Mithra from the Gha Naboh Matriarchate in the south also have a very similar belief system.

Why do I see this as a setup to add the job Animist (from Tactics Advanced & Tactics A2) down the line?

Kuraire

03-01-2013, 05:44 PM

Long ago, the people who inhabited Ulbuka spoke of the existence of a mysterious power found on the continent known as Ergon. Their belief was that elementals inhabited the plants, earth, lakes, air, and everything that makes up the continent. With that said, Animitism has no direct relation to the Naakuals of Ulbuka. One interesting thing to note is that the Mithra from the Gha Naboh Matriarchate in the south also have a very similar belief system.

This is interesting, i'm guessing then that native Geomancers would be the ones that mainly follow this religion. But if so do they see Geomancy more akin to Summoning magic (channeling a living spirit) than to just black or even blue magic (conjuring or replicating a force of nature).

(PS. I'm doubly happy to see the Gha Naboh Matriarchate get a mention, I still want to go visit there.)

Yrusama

03-03-2013, 08:20 AM

Sounds a lot like Conjury in FFXIV.

Metaking

03-03-2013, 08:18 PM

Thats part of what I meant though, that fight in particular for instance, we fought Promathia, lore wise a single adventurer and a few friends fought Promathia, but no one else really knows. An adventurer going around saying they fought and killed the Twilight god would be like me going around my neighborhood telling everyone that last week I fought and killed the Devil. Its something you have no proof of, that at best you and 10 other people know about because they were there. Basically we know Altana is real, we know Promathia is real, between CoP and WotG I believe both of those are confirmed, however to the rest of the normal inhabitants of Vana, they have never seen these things, so they cant say for sure it does.

you could take that one step further and point out from what we learn in cop, and actually hearing memorie da stona, that what the church in san teaches is a lie, also @Zhronne its hard to call promy evil when love is a chain, and all he wanted was for Altana to remain free

Limecat

03-04-2013, 12:48 AM

We totally need these priests to take over at the cathedral in Sandy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC0IQA5OUAA

Bearstar

03-04-2013, 08:07 AM

There are actually at least 4 religions that worship Altana. The Tarutaru believe that the Star Sybil is the physical incarnation of Altana, meaning she is Altana. After she dies, the nuns of Heaven's Tower search the girls born since her death to descover in whom Altana has been born again then take that child from her family and raise her within the Tower and reteach her all she has forgotten.

I assumed though process of elimination by the Winged objects (I own all 3) that the Eimert Church was a Protestant-style church native to Bastok. Can't wait to see how it funtions in a place at actually takes religion seriously.

The Elvaan Temple was originally a single Catholic-style church and the San d'Orian and Tavnazian Cathedrals only split within the last 30 years over opening "The Gate of the Gods" (See Chains of Promathia).

Island Animitism probably comes from the Mithra. Animitism is a form of nature worship. It focases more on the energies that flow through all things (Use the Force Luke) than individual spirits, and most tribal religions are some mix between the two extremes. Since the Mithra follow the "Sleeping Gods" and the Fire tribe is on the same island as Ifrit, there should be 6 major tribes, maybe 8, but the gods of light and dark have thier own religions (See Treasures of Aht Urghan and the Adventuring Fellow storyline).

My understanding of Taleskeeperism is that Altana choses who the Taleskeeper will be making him the Galkas' King and Prophet.

Bearstar

03-04-2013, 09:54 AM

you could take that one step further and point out from what we learn in cop, and actually hearing memorie da stona, that what the church in san teaches is a lie, also @Zhronne its hard to call promy evil when love is a chain, and all he wanted was for Altana to remain free

I think you got that backwards. Altana refused to allow Promathia to die of suicide so she murdered the True Crystal to steal its power to resurect him. But because a god is its own power, and Promathia is Death itself, she divided him into millions of pieces so he could never collect himself into a strong enough entity to try again. Altana bound Promathia. He did not choose to be bound so she could be free.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-04-2013, 11:22 AM

she murdered the True Crystal to steal its power to resurect him.

Ehhhh... not quite that simple.

But because a god is its own power, and Promathia is Death itself, she divided him into millions of pieces so he could never collect himself into a strong enough entity to try again.

Again, I don't feel like it can be described as so cut-and-dry.

Metaking

03-04-2013, 03:33 PM

he did chose to kill himself to let her be free, she refused and bound him so she would never be without him aka she loved him back. Reason memori da stona's last verse is so dangerous, its a love song.....

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-04-2013, 10:36 PM

While I'm not going to disagree with your main point directly (yet), I think it's important to note that...

Metaking

03-05-2013, 07:54 AM

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-05-2013, 08:25 AM

im sure something in acp said

ACP is a fever dream that should never be mentioned again.

Mokeil

03-05-2013, 09:17 AM

While I'm not going to disagree with your main point directly (yet), I think it's important to note that...

As a fellow student of the Lore, with special regards as to its relation to the Avatars and all things Summoner related, I'd like to thank you for sharing this bit of insight. I understood about the danger of the Song... but somehow that very last little bit escaped my attention. It manages to very neatly solve a small mystery that has bothered me for some time - specifically, how a certain Notable had been active during that time frame whilst his fellows were not.

Please, I must know - where did you come across this information? I'd dearly love to go rewatch those cutscenes again, as more mysteries now arise from this. Any and all additional insights you could share with me would be appreciated.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-05-2013, 09:41 AM

I'd dearly love to go rewatch those cutscenes again, as more mysteries now arise from this.

Relevant cutscenes are in...

There may be more, but that's what I remember off the top of my head.

Mokeil

03-05-2013, 11:59 AM

Thanks for the swift response! You've definitrly given me some food for thought.

Metaking

03-05-2013, 12:39 PM

possibly but why would he shoot himself in the foot with the shadow lord. remember the shadow lords very presence somehow stopped the zil princes from trying to reopen the gates of paradise which also would have also freed him

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-05-2013, 03:21 PM

Go back to Norg and rewatch "Total Recall." The princes are annoyingly vague, and can be interpreted more than one way.

Damage to the Crystal Lines themselves strikes me as a potential problem, but they don't seem to mention it.

And don't get me started on the Shadow Lord himself.

At any rate...

My one big question:

Mokeil

03-06-2013, 03:02 AM

Given that nearly our entire posts are hiding behind spoiler tags... I think I'll simply note here that there will be SPOILERS in my post. Be warned; read at your own risk, etc.

possibly but why would he shoot himself in the foot with the shadow lord. remember the shadow lords very presence somehow stopped the zil princes from trying to reopen the gates of paradise which also would have also freed him

I think I'll have to second Ziyyigo on this one. Odin's big thing seems to be finding mortals lost in rage and hopelessness and empowering them to act on their desires. He seems just as happy to do this in our world as any other.

Odin has his own agenda, and it's not clear to me that the Celestial Avatars really care about Paradise one way or the other (but my SMN is level 1 and I could be missing relevant content there).

If I'm remembering the Waking the Beast quest line correctly, this worry is why Carbuncle is running around making new Summoners. It is his hope that allowing the sleeping Celestials to experience Vana'diel via the filter of brave Adventurers will give them ties to this world, making them less inclined to wipe it out should they awaken and wonder were their Paradise has gone off to.

Where's the Light Protocrystal?

I'm not certain there is a Light Protocrystal anymore. The purpose of the Protocrystals is to be a sort of cocoon around the sleeping avatars - a defense mechanism likely crafted by the avatars themselves in response to the shattering of the Great Crystal. As an awakened avatar, Alexander may not need it anymore (this may also explain why Odin and Alexander seem to require some one/thing to act as a vessel in order to appear in our world)

Part of the Aht Urhgan story implied that the undersea ruins of Alzadaal (and all the areas contained therin - Salvage and Nyzule, for example) were the leftover remnants of Alexander's body. This is why there is always light weather during a Nyzule Isle run. If there is a Protocrystal still, it will likely be found there.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-06-2013, 03:20 AM

I'm not certain there is a Light Protocrystal anymore.

Well, there was a Dark Protocrystal 20 years ago, despite there having been a Ragnarok thousands of years ago. Even if it's been destroyed, where was it?

(this may also explain why Odin and Alexander seem to require some one/thing to act as a vessel in order to appear in our world)

But Alexander more than Odin. Odin seems willing to hang out here and there without a manifestation/minion, but Alexander needs a body built. Is this related to the apparent lack of a Protocrystal?

Part of the Aht Urhgan story implied that the undersea ruins of Alzadaal (and all the areas contained therin - Salvage and Nyzule, for example) were the leftover remnants of Alexander's body.

With the exception of the Gordeus, which is some sort of key part of the whole thing. Some of the mission dialog suggests the original Gordeus is in the sky, being the star of the same name. Or it could be the one sitting in Whitegate.

Is the Gordeus tied to the Protocrystal somehow?

Is the Gordeus what the Moblins are looking for? If they're simply looking for Alzadaal, why are they so off the mark?

Mokeil

03-06-2013, 06:32 AM

With the exception of the Gordeus, which is some sort of key part of the whole thing. Some of the mission dialog suggests the original Gordeus is in the sky, being the star of the same name. Or it could be the one sitting in Whitegate.

Is the Gordeus tied to the Protocrystal somehow?

Is the Gordeus what the Moblins are looking for? If they're simply looking for Alzadaal, why are they so off the mark?

The Gordeus... I think you're right about it being the key to understanding there. There's precious little ever said about it directly. The Empire of Aht Urhgan strikes me as the kind of place that would think it a Good Idea to try to harness the powers of a sleeping god, though. You know, for the Good of the Empire and all that.

Also, Razfahd seemed awfully certain that he'd be able to call up Alexander's power, near the end of Aht Urhgan's storyline...

As for the Moblins, I'm not sure they ever really had a good lead to go off of. Then they got themselves pulled into the business in CoP, which has left them all sorts of lost.

Some of the mission dialog suggests the original Gordeus is in the sky, being the star of the same name. Or it could be the one sitting in Whitegate.

The Gordeus in Whitegate always seemed to strike me as something very very far away, that we were only glimpsing through a lens/gateway, as it were. In effect, the Gordeus merely serves as a way to access some other place/time/power.

The part about it being the star named Gordeus, however, struck me as mere embellishment, taken from the semi-mythic nature of the stories surrounding the rise of the Empire. It put me in mind of the stories from the Tribune about the "origins" of the Celestial Avatars as related to the constellations.

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 01:26 PM

As a fellow student of the Lore, with special regards as to its relation to the Avatars and all things Summoner related, I'd like to thank you for sharing this bit of insight. I understood about the danger of the Song... but somehow that very last little bit escaped my attention. It manages to very neatly solve a small mystery that has bothered me for some time - specifically, how a certain Notable had been active during that time frame whilst his fellows were not.

Please, I must know - where did you come across this information? I'd dearly love to go rewatch those cutscenes again, as more mysteries now arise from this. Any and all additional insights you could share with me would be appreciated.

Don't forget the side quests involving the backgrounds of the characters involved, Tuning In, Search for Goldmane, Signed in Blood, Into the Depths, and Missionary Moblin. You will learn a lot and definately enrich your understanding of what happens in the main CoP missions. The Tuning In saga is about the Dark Protocrystal and Missionary Moblin also touches on Odin and I think eludes to Alexander.

Also since your into Summoner, You may not have figured out that when the god says "ye who is one yet many" is an reference to Promathia. And "bring order to the choas" isn't out of good will but everytime an Avatar's power is used it quickens thier awakening and the end of the world.

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 01:40 PM

I think the astral candences have something to do with the light crystal. Also when it comes to the behavor of alex and odin compared to the other gods, in paradise the gods are basically just people. But Odin and Alex have descovered the ego boost of realizing "Wow were actual gods now" and have made the choice to stop or at least delay the return to paradise as long as they can for personal gain.

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 02:00 PM

The part about it being the star named Gordeus, however, struck me as mere embellishment, taken from the semi-mythic nature of the stories surrounding the rise of the Empire. It put me in mind of the stories from the Tribune about the "origins" of the Celestial Avatars as related to the constellations.

Shantotto actually explains that in the missions. The beam of light from the battle crossed over that star with was later named for it after the [photochemical smog] cleared a year later. [photochemical smog is a earth phenomenon that matches exactly the aftermath of the battle in my opinion, not Shantotto's exact words]

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-07-2013, 02:02 PM

in paradise the gods are basically just people.

I believe you're confusing the Celestial Avatars (sleeping gods) with the Terrestrial Avatars (creatures who are powerless/mundane in Paradise).

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 02:52 PM

They are pretty clear about Raogrimm being the reason they're awake to begin with. So they shouldn't be complaining that much about him being in their way, since otherwise they wouldn't be around to complain. What they are particularly vague about is what, exactly, the problem was. Eald'narche talks of "noise" (which was "finally gone") and "him." I could be reading too much into things, but it seems odd for Eald'narche to be referring to Raogrimm in the third person when he's sitting right there in the room (and is addressed in second-person elsewhere in the same dialog).

The Shadow Lord still had a critical role to play at the Chrysalis Core, in "Return to Delkfutt's Tower." So, again, not strictly a problem for their plans.

Damage to the Crystal Lines themselves strikes me as a potential problem, but they don't seem to mention it.

And don't get me started on the Shadow Lord himself.

What exactly is the source of his power (beyond "GALKA SMASH!" rage)? Is it from his pact with Odin or a bond with the Vahzl crystal? The former explains his affinity with the dark element and susceptibility to Demon Killer, but the latter explains why he (presently) looks like an oversized golem (arcana). It is possible that he first drew power from one and then the other. And if it is from his ties with Vahzl... how is that working? As a Galka, his affinity is supposed to be with Al'Taieu

It is not so much the Vahzl crystal persay but the fact he touched the Crystal Line. Part of his soul was within the Line, which is why you saw his memories when you touched the magicite in the mission Magicite and how he was resurected using those stones.

When he touched the crystal, that set a percussion wave through the system that disrupted their hibernation. This woke them up, but after Roagrimm made his pact with Odin and the Shadow Lord used his connection within the Line into his own private magical supercharger, the "noise" prevented the proper use of the equipment. Not to spoil the ending of Zilart, but you win not by killing the princes but adding new noise into the line shutting the whole thing down.

When it comes to the crystalis core, something about a Galka's evolution into a Taleskeeper makes them compatable with the core. If they knew about Gumbah they probably would have grabbed him, but since Raogrimm was a demon, they needed the girl who could "resinate with the beastmen" or instinctively understand the language (personally I think Verena has a full blown Whisper) and use her as an extention cord between him and the core.

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 03:02 PM

I believe you're confusing the Celestial Avatars (sleeping gods) with the Terrestrial Avatars (creatures who are powerless/mundane in Paradise).

I'm thinking in terms of a ladder. As you cut off a bottom step it lowers the importance of the remaining steps. Yes the Terrestrial gods will become animals, but just as people were created by the gods, the gods were created by the Crystal. Without people below them they become the "created" and not the "creators" and become the "people" rung on the ladder.

Metaking

03-07-2013, 03:10 PM

and everyone will be super than noone will be - Syndrome

but thinking about it i doubt alex would care one way or another but odin a being that lives on strife hate and war, paradise would be hell, i wouldn't be surprised if he dint actively try and stop it, nice bonus that his rival would never fully awaken as well.

o going through Rise of the zil agin i noticed something odd Aldo's sister says the shadow lord was controlling her during during the events of "return to Delkfutt's Tower", and not the prince im guessing its a translation error tho >.>

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 03:19 PM

But who was controling the Shadow Lord's head? It would be the prince.

Bearstar

03-07-2013, 04:39 PM

Fluas nun sango senkulpa
Sur Vana'diel, vasta ter'
Tremas la tuta mond'
Pro l' plago en desper'

Preventas gin
Nenia sort'
Haltigas gin
Nenia fort'

Sed tra la nokto tempesta
Brilas jen stelo de glor'!
Kontrau brutala kri'
Fontas jen kant-sonor'!

Stelo brilanta, kanto sonanta:
Revo kaj prego por ni!

Vana'diel! Vana'diel!

Mano kaj man' kunpremitaj
Trans la eterno sen lim'
Ne dismetigos plu
Ne disligigos plu!

English translation
-----

Now flows innocent blood
On Vana'diel, a vast land
The entire world trembles
In despair from the scourge

Prevented
By no fate
Stopped
By no strength

But through the stormy night
Behold: a star of glory shines!
Against a brutal outcry
Behold: a hymn springs forth!

A shining star, a ringing song:
Dream and pray for us!

Vana'diel! Vana'diel!

Hand and hand together
Across the limitless eternity
We will no longer be put asunder
We will no longer be bound!

now assuming this song could be sung as a duet "we will no longer be put asunder" would work nicely with the ending of the concept of being eternally free of something (altana) and "we will no longer be bound" screams promy wanting to be with her instead of chained by himself.

i mean to me the whole song screams a duet between lovers. also i cant find it, but im sure something in acp said the world would be destroyed by love >.>;

Is this the lyrics from the version sang by the orchestra? Because the lyrics between the two are different. If you read the mission An Eternal Melody it gives the first two verses:

It all began with a stone, or so the legend says.

In ages past, a sentient jewel filled the world with life and brought forth mighty gods.

Bathed in that light, the world entered an age of bliss until, after a time, the gods fell into slumber.

That world was called Vana'diel.

Our world, Vana'diel...

However, this age will not last. The great bane will devour the fair land of Vana'diel.

The ancient seal will be broken, awakening nightmares of ages past.

A tragic age of darkness will reign.
And yet, the gods will not wake from their slumber...

That world was called Vana'diel.

I believe the song "Warroirs of the Crystal" is based off of a mix of verse 2 and 3 but otherwise the last 3 verses are not spelled out.

The great bane will devour the fair land of Vana'diel...

The ancient seal will be broken, awakening nightmares of ages past.

The blood of innocents will soak the earth, and the world will fall into fear and despair.

But as one bright star shines through the clouds at night, and as one song rings clear above the roar of beasts, we hold to one hope in these darkest of times.

That they will come, with the wisdom of ages and the strength of thousands, to deliver us from our plight. We await the awakening of the Warriors of the Crystal.

ACP does give fragments of verses but where they fit and order is up for debate.

Innocent blood spills forth onto the plains of Vana'diel.
The world shudders as she is thrust into chaos and despair.
Neither power nor destiny...
...can bring and end to what has already begun.

But as one bright star shines through the clouds at night...
And as one song rings clear above the roar of beasts...
We hold to one hope in these darkest of times.
That star is you, and the song is yours.
And someday, that hope will become our dreams...
Our prayers...
Shine forth, star of hope!
Let your song ring out across all of Vana'diel!
By the strength of our hopes and our prayers...
What was split asunder...
...Will once more become whole.
Complete and inseparable for all eternity.

As the legend began, so too does it end...
with a stone.

In ages past, the Dawn Goddess,
stricken with grief, sought to restore life
to her fallen beloved by bestowing unto him
the light of the true crystal.

The crystal shattered, and in the bodies of
countless mortals the Twilight God was reborn.

The crystal's holy light extinguished evermore,
Paradise was no longer, and a new world of
mortals was birthed in its stead.

That world was called Vana'diel.

Metaking

03-07-2013, 07:19 PM

But who was controling the Shadow Lord's head? It would be the prince.
true but generally someone being controlled has no willpower of there own and i remember her saying something along the lines of being controlled by the shadowlords will alone tho your probably right it just strikes me as odd. Also i believe the version i posted is the orchestrated version, which was before acp and i always assumed was the last verse, and still seems a lot more dangerous for mortals to hear than " As the legend began, so too does it end...
with a stone.

In ages past, the Dawn Goddess,
stricken with grief, sought to restore life
to her fallen beloved by bestowing unto him
the light of the true crystal.

The crystal shattered, and in the bodies of
countless mortals the Twilight God was reborn.

The crystal's holy light extinguished evermore,
Paradise was no longer, and a new world of
mortals was birthed in its stead.

That world was called Vana'diel. "

tho i guess it would destroy most of the games religions >.>

O and while somewhat on the crystals why where there never any beastmen crystal warriors i mean looking at the tonberry its obvious the beast men were also made at the same time as the 5 primary races... i mean only real thing i can think of is the primary races are the zil and all the beastmen sprung from the Kuluu tho i cant think of this subject ever being touched other than(and we know this is wrong) that promy made all the beastmen to appose altana.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-08-2013, 12:43 AM

o going through Rise of the zil agin i noticed something odd Aldo's sister says the shadow lord was controlling her during during the events of "return to Delkfutt's Tower", and not the prince im guessing its a translation error tho >.>

Don't forget that the Shadow Lord is more of a peer than an underling in the grand scheme of things. Remember that he was present at Apocalypse Nigh.

Rustic

03-08-2013, 01:05 AM

Spolier warning:

Let's look at it this way. Raogrimm basically dies. His original body is broken and useless. The pact crafts him a new, artificial form courtesy of Odin (thus it's weakness to Demon Killer- it's made the same way the Kindred were, even if it's occupied by a Galkan soul). It draws power via the Galka sin of Rage, but from the act of betrayal by a Hume- thus, Vahzl is being tapped to sustain it.

Bearstar

03-08-2013, 04:08 AM

The tonberry are basically what happens to a soul that has eternal life but not eternal youth. With the emptiness removed they rotten and decayed over 10k years into there current form. The other beastmen races are never spelled out except when those races are kimeras. But Esha does say that the myth of promathia's creation of them is wrong. But how ever they were crafted they are equal to the five races as they both react to the song the same way in a cs in the final part of ACP.

And to Rustic's comment I still do not believe what crystal he touched matters. He was attacted to the Crystal Line. My proof is the final fight in RotZ, one of the set of final cs's in Dynamis-Tavnazia, and Apocolipse Nigh. That's all I can say without being spoiler blocked.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-08-2013, 04:21 AM

My proof is... one of the set of final cs's in Dynamis-Tavnazia

Dammit! I'm allergic to endgamey stuff!

Still, at least that's more vaguely attainable for me than relic cutscenes...

Mokeil

03-08-2013, 08:44 AM

Don't forget the side quests involving the backgrounds of the characters involved, Tuning In, Search for Goldmane, Signed in Blood, Into the Depths, and Missionary Moblin. You will learn a lot and definately enrich your understanding of what happens in the main CoP missions. The Tuning In saga is about the Dark Protocrystal and Missionary Moblin also touches on Odin and I think eludes to Alexander.

You know, I rather think I skipped most of those side quests. Most CoP areas were rough places to be a Summoner in back in those days. Thank you for bringing them to mind! I shall make it a point to do them just as soon as I manage to snag a new power supply for my home PC.

Also since your into Summoner, You may not have figured out that when the god says "ye who is one yet many" is an reference to Promathia. And "bring order to the choas" isn't out of good will but everytime an Avatar's power is used it quickens thier awakening and the end of the world.

Now, this is an interesting idea! Do you have proof to back this up, or is it supposition? I'd always interpreted these lines to be more along the lines of a god speaking to a lesser being, while acknowledging that "while you are individuals, you are united in pursuit of a single goal." The idea being that, while we Adventurers are weak on our own, together we can challenge even the gods themselves.

This then tied into another theroy I had...

That they will come, with the wisdom of ages and the strength of thousands, to deliver us from our plight. We await the awakening of the Warriors of the Crystal.

[...]

That star is you, and the song is yours.
And someday, that hope will become our dreams...
Our prayers...
Shine forth, star of hope!
Let your song ring out across all of Vana'diel!
By the strength of our hopes and our prayers...
What was split asunder...
...Will once more become whole.
Complete and inseparable for all eternity.

Having established (via CoP) that we are the true Warriors of the Crystal spoken of in the song, I also theorized that we would also be the ones to re-establish Paradise. Not by reuniting the Great Crystal, as the Zilarts wanted, but rather by reuniting the light of the Mother Crystals as reflected through us, i.e. not in the literal sense, but figuratively. If we can challenge the gods by working together - standing united - we could eventually make Vana'diel a pretty darn spiffy place to live in, too.

Alas, as with most things prophetic, there is little actual proof for my theory. Just my own interpretation on things. But I liked the way it fulfilled the terms of the prophecy/song in a way that didn't end with the world I love being winked out of existence.

O and while somewhat on the crystals why where there never any beastmen crystal warriors i mean looking at the tonberry its obvious the beast men were also made at the same time as the 5 primary races...

I think being a true Warrior of the Crystal is more a meta-physical thing. If you're talking about the Ark Angels, those are Twisted Mockeries created by the Zilart Princes in a mad and desperate attempt to fullfill the terms of the prophecy/song so that they could say, "See? We've got all the pieces just like it says, so we'd like our Paradise back, now, thanks." The Ark Angels also had the benefit of being really nice beat sticks the Zilart could use to keep people in check. It was win-win for them, until we came along and broke their toys.

We (who completed CoP, at least) on the other hand, are the true Warriors not because we were born special, or because we were touched by some arcane power beyond the ken of mortal man, but because we are ourselves, and in being so we embody the virtues of the Crystals (their "light" with which we can push back the darkness). OK, yes, the extra power boost from the light of the Mother Crystals that allowed us to resist Promathia's power helped, but those lights aren't what brought us to that moment - then and there - ready to fight for our world. That was all pure us being awesome.

By and large, the Beastmen are just too tightly wrapped up in the Chains (the five great flaws) to rise to that sort of level. They spend most of their time squabbling and warring and killing. Not to say that the player races haven't made mistakes in their pasts, but I like to think we've gotten better.

Metaking

03-08-2013, 01:31 PM