Give 99 relics 20% increased weaponskill damage across the board

[Malthar]

Did we forget about relics? They're still very under powered compared to other weapons. A nice 20% boost for all weaponskills done with a 99 relic should go a ways to make up.

Also for the 99+ relics, mythics, empyreans, instead of that afterglow bolshavik give them a 60% boost for all weaponskills. I gurantee you'll see people scrambling to do ADL to get their hands on one of these bad boys. A silly glow is nothing to brag out, but a 99+ with 60% boost to all weaponskills is definately worth bragging rights!

[Byrth]

Considering the number of Relics that are top-tier or close at the moment, this would overpower them.

These relics are already highly competitive:
* Spharai (Best H2H outside of Abyssea)
* Ragnarok (Best GS)
* Mandau (Best dagger)
* Apocalypse (Best or second-best Scythe, to Mythic)
* Guttler (Best or second-best Axe, to Mythic)
* Amanomurakumo (second or third best GKT, but not by as much as 20% WS damage)
* Annihilator (Best Marksmanship weapon)
* Yoichinoyumi (Best bow)
* Mjollnir (Best DD Club)

The relics that aren't as good are:
* Gungnir
* Kikoku
* Excalibur
* Claustrum
* Bravura - This is the only one whose relative position might be affected by +20% Upheaval damage.

20% WS damage would make the Bests even better and would only minorly affect the hierarchy beyond that. Bravura is the only weapon that would be fundamentally changed (from a primarily defensive to an offensive/defensive weapon) by +20% WS damage.

[Demon6324236]

If anything about Relics need a boost its only their native WSs, because they are weak by compare to Emp WSs in almost all cases, which is fairly unbalanced for most weapons.

[saevel]

Considering the number of Relics that are top-tier or close at the moment, this would overpower them.

These relics are already highly competitive:
* Spharai (Best H2H outside of Abyssea)
* Ragnarok (Best GS)
* Mandau (Best dagger)
* Apocalypse (Best or second-best Scythe, to Mythic)
* Guttler (Best or second-best Axe, to Mythic)
* Amanomurakumo (second or third best GKT, but not by as much as 20% WS damage)
* Annihilator (Best Marksmanship weapon)
* Yoichinoyumi (Best bow)
* Mjollnir (Best DD Club)

The relics that aren't as good are:
* Gungnir
* Kikoku
* Excalibur
* Claustrum
* Bravura - This is the only one whose relative position might be affected by +20% Upheaval damage.

20% WS damage would make the Bests even better and would only minorly affect the hierarchy beyond that. Bravura is the only weapon that would be fundamentally changed (from a primarily defensive to an offensive/defensive weapon) by +20% WS damage.

The only part of this I disagree with is the Bravura vs Apoc positions. MT is stronger then Cata and accomplishes the same purpose (minimizing damage via haste + PDT set). Their both 2.75 fTP WS's with a 40% boost but MT is 60% STR while Cata is 40% INT and .... 40% AGI (LOLZ). Apoc may be the best scythe (Mythic not withstanding) but that's not saying much considering the job that would use Scythe has at least two better options for pure damage output. For the GAXE user Brav is seconded only by Ukon for pure damage output.

[saevel]

If anything about Relics need a boost its only their native WSs, because they are weak by compare to Emp WSs in almost all cases, which is fairly unbalanced for most weapons.

Not really no. The merited WS's really made up for all that, which is why I think SE created them in the first place. That is why Rag went from a joke to one of the best weapons in the game, it actually got a decent WS that didn't include MND and CHR in it.

Excal also got this treatment with Req (40 attack makes a big difference) and the jobs that use Excal have more STR / MND WS gear then they do DEX ws gear.

Gulter is insane with Ruinator, seriously Ruin is stupidly strong. Would be game breaking if it wasn't a 1H weapon and mostly used on a job with no native damage ability or dual wield.

Amano was already extremely powerful (3.0 fTP 60% STR) at 75. Fudo outclassed it prior to the 99 40% damage boost. With Shoha acting as the (low buff) WS Amano and Masa trade positions depending on your buffs and target. Mythic is the best but not by so much that it makes the other two obsolete or undesirable.

This leaves only a few relics that are actually semi undesirable. Kikoku is actually pretty good as NIN gets a ton of DEX gear for WS. Hi is still stronger but not by a huge margin. The weapon would be more desirable if it's stats worked on the off hand.

About the only relic that really has a hard time is Gugnir which is still better then the Empy polearm. The mythic polearm though is insanely powerful.

[Byrth]

I wasn't comparing between the relics, and Apoc's 10% gear Haste and the fact that it restores HP makes it a fairly unique weapon even if it's not a top-dog for damage.

[Demon6324236]

Not really no. The merited WS's really made up for all that, which is why I think SE created them in the first place. That is why Rag went from a joke to one of the best weapons in the game, it actually got a decent WS that didn't include MND and CHR in it.What I meant is when you are using an Emp, you have 2 useful SWs, its own and the merit, but when using a Relic many of the Relic WSs are bad even with the 40% bonus, so another bonus like the 20% one might change that a slight bit again, I admit though I said this because if they did it to boost Relics, RDM and KoR would be even more powerful than it already is, which would make me happy.

[bigdave]

mercy stroke is insane if you stack it love it the way it is and cant wait to see the one hand buff soon

[saevel]

What I meant is when you are using an Emp, you have 2 useful SWs, its own and the merit, but when using a Relic many of the Relic WSs are bad even with the 40% bonus, so another bonus like the 20% one might change that a slight bit again, I admit though I said this because if they did it to boost Relics, RDM and KoR would be even more powerful than it already is, which would make me happy.

That is just specific WS's being adjusted which I've been behind for a very long time. Take GSWD as a prime example, Torcleaver is very ~bleh~ and none of the other "non-merit" ones are worth a damn. That made Rag a laughing stock weapon until Resolution was created and *BAM* it's powerful as hell. Rag has only one WS to use, like most of the other relics. Many relic WS just need their mods altered. Change Cata from 40% INT 40% AGI to 40% INT 40% STR, same with Scourge to 40% MND 40% STR. Make Gugnir 60% STR. Noticing a pattern here? STR based WS's get to double / triple dip, they get the WSC bonus along with the fSTR bonus along with the attack bonus, even better if your a 2H wielder. The best offensive gear tends to have STR as a stat on it, so when your looking for DA / TA / +WS dmg + attack + crit / ect.. you also tend to find STR vs ... MND, CHR or AGI. Also the jobs those WS's were made for might not have access to gear that actually has that stat, Gugnir with a 60% AGI mod being a prime example. Meso actually has a very good stat mod for NIN, they can access tons of DEX gear which also gives them accuracy, another reason Shun is a good WS. Hi got kinda screwed with being AGI based and a crit WS (same with JR being DEX and ranged attacks being AGI based). Hi should of been DEX and JR should of been AGI.

It's many of these little inconsistencies that cause them to lag so far behind the others. Relic WS's were designed back in the days when SE have no f8cking idea what they were doing. Empy WS's were designed during the time when SE wanted to make the game full of big numbers and epic battles. The merit WS's were designed as an attempt to fix some of the imbalance between the weapons class's. Req is a good example of this, it tends to be weaker then CDC (outside of class specific gear issues) and most other powerful WS's. Yet the situations that Req is good in, it's REALLY REALLY good. Same with Cata and Torment, their weaker then their empy and merit cousins yet when their useful their incredibly useful.

[saevel]

I wasn't comparing between the relics, and Apoc's 10% gear Haste and the fact that it restores HP makes it a fairly unique weapon even if it's not a top-dog for damage.

Then Bravura should up there also. MT has a 20% DT AM effect, it allows you to cap haste and DT simultaneously. It serves the same purpose to WAR that Apoc does to DRK, as a utility weapon to use when tanking baddies that pose a threat yet don't justify an alliance. When I was debating which one to make I decided on the Bravura because 20% DT is worth more gear-slot-wise then 10% haste. The HP drain on Cata is only useful if you solo and honestly there are better jobs to solo on the DRK. BLU can do the same things easier without requiring a 99 relic.

[Byrth]

I don't understand how the non-damage based utility of the weapon is relevant to the comparison I was making. To be clear, this was the logical flow:

1) OP proposes a change that will increase the damage done by relic weapons when using any WS, with the justification that relic weapons need the boost to be competitive with other weapons in a DD sense.

2) I respond and point out that, as far as damage goes, many relic weapons do not need a further damage bonus to be at the top of their respective weapon types.

3) You respond that Apoc needs a boost because Ragnarok is better than it, which may be true but:
3a) It is irrelevant to the discussion because an across-the-board WS bonus wouldn't be used to equalize two different weapon types.
3b) It is irrelevant because the proposed change isn't being proposed to help Apocalypse (a relic) compete against Ragnarok (a relic), it's to help Relics compete against non-Relics.
3c) Comparing the two weapons in a DD sense is irrelevant to the thread, but is also irrelevant overall because they serve different roles in DRK's arsenal (lowman/low buff vs. highly buffed).

4) I point out 3c.

5) You respond that Bravura is also a utility weapon, which is true but a non sequitur in this case.

6) My response:
Bravura is inferior in a damage sense to its M/E counterparts, which makes buffs to its damage relevant to this thread. That's why I commented on it. +20% WS damage to Upheaval would probably push Bravura above Conqueror and Ukonvasara in quite a few situations. This and Amano are the main Relics whose position in the hierarchy would be affected by the proposed change. The others are either already the best (and would be pushed further ahead) or are worse than the next best option by more than +20% WS damage.

That's why I said this would overpower some relics (relative to the other competitors in their field). The benefits of this adjustment are that it's simple. The downsides are that it would be totally unbalancing and not address the supposed problem from the OP. Overall, it's not worth doing.

[Metaking]

well i think its about to upgrade from a training bra(vura) to a desirable weapon when the ukon guys ridding berserk be getting 1 shoted, when the ratio change happens(taking 20% less dmg could easily mean victory or X.x). i do think se should let the effect break pdt cap, but I am sure plds.... all 3 of them left, would complain >.>

[saevel]

Umm Byrth are you replying to me or Demon? Cause I kinda agreed with your entire argument and only wanted to demonstrate how Bravura is one of the better relics due to it's utility value in a role that WAR would often be placed in.

[saevel]

well i think its about to upgrade from a training bra(vura) to a desirable weapon when the ukon guys ridding berserk be getting 1 shoted, when the ratio change happens(taking 20% less dmg could easily mean victory or X.x). i do think se should let the effect break pdt cap, but I am sure plds.... all 3 of them left, would complain >.>

I now strongly feel that all serious DD's should invest in a -DT TP set. Once you start using it and learn to hone your reflexes you become like Chuck Norris, only not quite as epic. You ride full damage set until you think the NM is about to do something ~bad~ then quickly switch into DT set. After the the monster has failed miserably to kill you, you switch back and continue to kick it's a$$. It's a completely different skill set to learn but pays big dividends in any situation where something is capable of putting out damaging moves.

The only problem is the big loss of damage from having to drop so much haste gear. That's where weapons like Bravura and Apoc come in handy, they let you cheap and get away with wearing less -DT or less haste while still taking greatly reduced damage.