Enough is enough [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Darrt

02-01-2013, 06:32 PM

I don't speak for the whole FFXI community, but i cannot just sit here in silence anymore. It has become apparent that the FFXI devs have forgotten that WE pay THEM to play this game. Over the past few months i have seen nothing come from the devs that proves otherwise. They add content to the game that is incredibly difficult without a very specific setup (NNI) and then criticize us saying that not everyone should be able to clear all content in the game. Uhhh are you *&^%ing kidding me? If i am paying you my money, however small the amount may be, i sure as hell better be able to participate in / clear any event in the game with whatever setup i choose, and the only thing that should hold me back is that event being a little more difficult if i choose a less than optimal setup.

Or they add slightly challenging content that is pretty easy to clear if the participants have the temps (VW) but have abyssmal drop rates and no way to share loot you don't want / need.

Or they add content that is easy and accessible (Neo-Salvage) but then decide that one small niche of a job is too OP for it and decide to nerf it. Meanwhile their precious Sam weapon remains unchanged. Nevermind that you need loot from the old salvage to get the better loot from new salvage, which BTW means if you missed out when TOAU came out, you now need to do 75 content before you can do 99 content because of arbitrary entry limitations. Oh and BTW, good luck getting the drops you need in old school salvage.

Which takes me to my next two points;

SE refuses to adjust the 3 man limit on ToAU content which would make getting stuff done that NO ONE wants to do anymore (assaults) or is hard to find people for (salvage, einherjar) I know this is an MMO but when content can be cleared by one person, make so can enter with ONLY 1 PERSON.

Limbus 2 would be good but again, good luck finding people to do it. Enif has some nice pieces, Murzim is mostly trash, and the lack of AF+2 leaves almost no incentive to do this event.

Whats that? oh AF+2, yeah it might make people do this event but SE has flat out said NO to the notion of adding such a thing. Again SE, WE PAY YOU to play this game. Obviously adding ideas any Tom, Dick, or Harry throw at you would be bad, but if the majority of the games population want it, MAKE IT SO.

You know what you gain by actually listening to your players? MORE MONEY! That's right, if you actually threw us a bone on things more people would continue to play this game, instead of drop from existence because you don't want to listen to the people that play this game, unlike yourselves, even though you claim to play it.

People put some damn good ideas on this forum and they are either completely ignored, or we get a lame ass "we are looking / will look into it" but then never hear another thing about it.

This has turned into a rant so I'll wrap this up. SE is trolling us. They want our money but don't want our feedback. Yet we continue to play this game in the hopes that something awesome will happen. SoA brought some hope, but i have major doubts. I mean look at WoTG, how long did it take to finish that expansion? And what is there to show for it?

Enough is enough. I am only one person, but if all of the NA/EU community stopped playing FFXI for even a month i wonder how SE would react.

tyrantsyn

02-02-2013, 07:27 AM

Sir you are emotional, and as stated in another thread your opinion is noted but doesn't matter. Why? because you are emotional and not making any point because of the emotional thing.
Emotional
no point
And only us other emotional player's understand you.
Here's my like, sorry about the whole emotional thing.
Good luck
500 post :D

Alhanelem

02-02-2013, 08:00 AM

Zeroe

02-02-2013, 02:10 PM

Just an emo "game sucks /devs suck or don't listen" post.

If you want change, the only way to have a greater than zero chance of getting it is to spell out camly and clearly what exactly you think is broken and needs fixing, what isn't broken and shouldn't be fixed, whatever. Just coming here and stamping your foot isn't going to accomplish anything.

Short Answer: Bullcrap

When these forums first started, there was plenty of optimism and great ideas. The devs would respond, but with cryptic generic "look into it text" After awhile, people started to notice that they weren't taking any of our ideas at all. Soon came waves of terrible patches, while the community cried out to stop them, the devs did nothing. We have every right to be annoyed, angry, and frankly a little ticked off because our money is being wasted on crap that shouldn't be adjusted. I tried there way of being "nice and constructive." Know where that got us??? Absolutely nothing.

Were not idiots, we know when were not being listened to. I want whats best for the game, as does everyone. But this isn't the right direction. Everyone knows it, but again, who's listening.

Chocobits

02-02-2013, 02:19 PM

youmustbenewhere.jpg

You make points. I can't speak to their validity, but I can see their importance to you.

Do you know what the difference between contribution and nocturnal emission is?

The former has you presenting your case and offering suggestions for what you feel is unbalanced.

The other is a load of waste that will only happen in your dreams.

*Edit* Gonna go ahead and add that yes, you sign the devs' paychecks. If you don't like their work, fire them and hire another MMO's devs.

If you like their work but not their policy, then explain to them in a way that makes logical, fiscal sense why they should change policy.

If you don't like their work or their policy, but you continue to pay them and complain, why SHOULD they listen? They're still getting a check from you whether they are working up to your expectations or not.

Rezeak

02-02-2013, 03:15 PM

I don't think not paying will help, i mean i have seen endgame ls's leave the game cause of SE wanting to makes do the most medicore stuff over and over and honestly all they do is plod on not caring.

Either way for FFXI to be profitable i'm sure it's relatively easy i mean for example in a year you'd pay $160ish and with just say 10k subs that $1.6mil and i'm sure your could run a server and employee a dev team for that give or take. And i'm sure they have alot more than 10k subs and you can see why they want another FFXI from FFXIV.

With that said if, and it's a big if, if you could get a decent sized gaming site to cover a story on why FFXI dev team doesn't listen to it's players it would make them listen because of all the poor press in FFXIV, and funnily enough the only time i have seen SE buckle to peer pressure was when a group of people fought AV for 22 hours and gaming magazines covered it negativity.

Either way, i'm not that inclined either way the best thing about having a PC is having more than one game and i just play FFXI every so often (like 1 week or so every few months so i only pay for 1 out of 3 months) which i happy enough for.

My FFXI plan now is not to play for 4-8 months then come back for SoA Story and quit again.

While in away i'm sad FFXI for me is over just like when i completed FFVII. It doesn't change that it was a great game and FFXI-2 (abyssea) was a fun remix but FFXI-3 (abyssea was fun but now it's time sink time) is not for me lol.

Arcon

02-02-2013, 05:03 PM

Short Answer: Bullcrap

It's true that there probably isn't any right way to actually suggest something to the development team, based on previous experience, but that doesn't mean that coming on here and ranting about it with foam at your mouth will do anyone any good. All it does is reduce peoples' opinions of the OP. Also, some of what he said was just garbage.

Jaall

02-02-2013, 05:43 PM

Darrt

02-02-2013, 05:49 PM

I see some of you think this is just a QQ thread but i assure you i was completely calm when i typed my the OP. I did not offer any suggestions because either A. They have already been posted on this site, or B. They will just be ignored anyway. I suppose you could say the purpose of this thread was not to be constructive, but just to post how I, and i'm sure many other, FFXI players feel about the devs / this game at the moment. I was thinking that if enough people like / comment in this thread that it will get some community rep attention and maybe, just maybe, they will pass this up to the people at SE. And then, however small a chance it might be, we would see some positive change.

Obviously not every single person is going to agree with me, and i don't expect them to. Feel free to flame me if you want, it makes no difference to me. All i ask is that if you do wish to flame me, bring something to the thread about how this game IS balanced, the devs DO listen to us, and i am just a tool for thinking otherwise. If you don't bring this, then you are just a troll who continues to feed off of SE's abuse and neglect.

Darrt

02-02-2013, 05:56 PM

Crusader81

02-02-2013, 07:28 PM

I'm really enjoying FFXIV, Yoshi was great in Abyssea. They really listen to the players now in XIV.

However I'm convinced the current trend of nerfs in XI will lead to a horrible failure for XI.
Did they not fire all of Tanaka's team yet? Recently it feels like the ghost of Tanaka has returned.

I hear a lot of people on XI talking about how excited they are for XIV. If I were on the XI team I'd be worried about my job.

Stop the nerfing now before its too late.

Himrik

02-02-2013, 08:01 PM

Some people should read before posting a reply.
OP : "SE clearly doesn't listen to us when we explain why and how something could change"
Reply : "Crap post because you don't explain why and how something could change"

OP is right, DEVs don't give a crap at what is written is this forum as long as we keep paying the game every month.

Just look at all the thread on PLD forum. You'll find only threads about why PLD is useless and how it can be more usefull.
Any changes improving the situation for the past years ?

And when they posted the manifesto, it clearly showed that they don't know what PLD is.

My advice...STOP PLAYING.

Yinnyth

02-02-2013, 09:23 PM

I don't think not paying will help, i mean i have seen endgame ls's leave the game cause of SE wanting to makes do the most medicore stuff over and over and honestly all they do is plod on not caring.

I am the grammar hammer, so it pains me to reply to you without correcting your spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and grammar. However, I am capable of understanding your underlying message, so tell us: which endgame linkshells did you see quit the game, and what was their reason?

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-02-2013, 10:20 PM

In my personal opinion, "We're busy making the new expansion" covers a whole host of sins. Other than their classic "No export for you!" game that they're playing with various versions of Adoulin, I personally don't see reason to get too loud until late April or so.

Monchat

02-02-2013, 11:28 PM

They add content to the game that is incredibly difficult without a very specific setup (NNI) and then criticize us saying that not everyone should be able to clear all content in the game.

I generally aggree but with the recent change any kind of group will reach floor 80 np.

Or they add content that is easy and accessible (Neo-Salvage) but then decide that one small niche of a job is too OP for it and decide to nerf it.

Any tripple of DD THF healer will clear any zone, really. So you exagerate a bit. And if you are "casual" just bring 6 people. Just because the "elite" find X or Y job to work best doesn't mean its the only job to work.

They also made Meebles burrows which has several gems and easy to get pieces for casuals.

Zohnax

02-03-2013, 12:28 AM

Try not being anti-social. Try shouting for people or starting a linkshell. It's people like you who whine and cry that everything should be solo-able/low-man-able which ruins the game for the rest of us who enjoy harder content. The Abyssea era is over. For as long as I've played FFXI, it has been a game about teamwork, so get over yourself and your subscription argument. And as far as nerfs go, what nerfs? Dual-wielding jobs are getting buffed, Resolution hasn't been nerfed, /DRK will be boosted. Embrava is getting nerfed because people are relying on it to clear at least three-four different contents instead of strategizing adequately. Perfect Defense is actually going to reflect your Summoning Magic skill compared to how currently it doesn't matter what skill you have as long as you have the MP you get the full effect.

Dazusu

02-03-2013, 12:52 AM

It might just be me who thinks this, but thank f**k the devs don't listen to 99% of the posts on these forums or we'd end up with a game that's a million light-years away from the one that drew us into playing in the first place. All we're left with now are people who want to mold the game into something that suits their specific schedule or playstyle and/or makes 'grinding' (the basis of an MMO) extinct.

Teraniku

02-03-2013, 07:16 AM

What do I think is wrong with FFXI in it's current state?

-Not enough worthwhile small group, 1-3 people, content outside of abyssea, hoping adoulin changes that.

-Leveling in general is broken thanks to the easy AFK levelling in Abyssea. Only relative fix would be to raise the entry level for abyssea (60+) or change it so that players who are inactive over a certain period of time get auto booted, or actually put a hard time restriction, so after 4 hours total you get booted anyway and then have to wait the cooldown before re entry.
-Along these lines, actually have GoV or FoV pages give XP bonuses for running a page with 3 + members in your party.

-VW can be fun but the reward system sucks. Reward people for helping others through the VW tiers, by granting them a special currency that can be used to buy VW rewards. Would help the people think they are making progress toward an item instead of just being lucky.

NNI and legion I can't comment on because I've never done it and haven't had the opportunity to do so.

Darrt

02-03-2013, 09:12 AM

Ziyyigo - You have a solid point, hopefully things do turn around after SoA comes out. However, when SoA is released it damn well better be more that 3 CS missions, a bunch of re-skinned zones and almost no content similar to when WoTG was released.

Monchat - what i meant by the nerf to Neo-Salvage was all the commotion over the twilight scythe. SE said that this weapon will be adjusted because Drk has enough tools under its belt, yet other weapons are fine as they are. Now correct me if i am wrong, but what other weapons in the game have the same damage properties of this scythe? AFAIK the only other weapon is that GK, but since it belongs to SAM, SE will never nerf that.

As for meebles, you are correct. It is really easy and a good casual event, but 20 hours recharge for a 15 minute event is horrible design. It is also riddled with some kind of glitch that can lock a player out, and screw over your run. The last time i did it, we got to the boss page, entered, and the RDM got locked out. We lost because of that. A weeks worth of waiting down the drain because of a stupid glitch.

Zohnax - I started this game in 2006 so i am well aware of pre-abyssea FFXI. However, i am not a high-schooler anymore. I don't have time to wait for 3 hours to get a exp pt invite, spend 3 hours in dynamis to get 2 coins and maybe 1 piece of relic. Spend 2 hours camping sky gods only to have some random shell magically appear and get claim as soon as it pops.

I have tried shouting for things, but here's the deal, nobody wants to help unless something is in it for them. It also doesn't help that i am currently stationed in Korea which puts me 17 hours ahead of my normal play times, so its mostly JP if/when i do log on.

Embrava isn't getting nerfed, it's getting changed into another useless ability. SE could have adjusted the duration and lowered the regain value and we would have been ok with that. 600 skill to cap out PD is impossible to achieve, not sure what SE was smoking when they decided that. And since we are kinda of this subject, lolnewrdmSP. Playerbase: SE this isn't a good SP, here's why, and here is a better one. SE: i reject your good ideas and substitute my even crappier ideas! MUAHAHAHA.

Dazusu - i included in the OP that SE shouldn't listen to every idea that pops up here, but they should seriously consider ones that have a lot of support from the playerbase. Not give us their catch-all of "we will / are looking into it" and then never hear about it again.

Teraniku - I enjoyed old school leveling, but i was a kid then and had a lot more time on my hands. Abyssea leveling makes it easier for people to cap a job they want to play and then actually play the game. Most players have all jobs at 99 now though so any change is mostly moot. As for VW, it does provide a type of currency; it's called cruor. But when SE nerfed ways to use it they did not add a good way to spend it. Many players said it would be nice if you could use it to buy plates / dross to finish off empy weapons but it never happened.

Alhanelem

02-03-2013, 02:00 PM

Embrava isn't getting nerfed, it's getting changed into another useless ability.uhm... these two things are effectually the same. It's a nerf.

Darrt

02-03-2013, 02:33 PM

IMO a nerf to embrava would be reducing the haste and regain value. What i mean in my last post was that embrava as it is is getting completely dismantled and turned into something no one would want to use, ever.

Alhanelem

02-03-2013, 02:59 PM

Demon6324236

02-03-2013, 03:07 PM

Its not worthless though so not sure what you are all talking about anyways.

Note:I had a much longer post about how its not worthless and how I would improve it a slight bit from how they are setting it up now, however my PC thought it would be great to crash and reload the page, so my post is lost, and thanks to it pissing me off, I have no wish to retype it out at this time.

Alhanelem

02-03-2013, 03:11 PM

Its not worthless though so not sure what you are all talking about anyways.It's only use after this update will be for stacking regen- nobody gives a rat's behind about the piddly refresh. Converting the TP gain to MP gain without increasing the value makes it worthless- for a 2-hour spell if it's going to grant refresh it needs to grant a lot more than that.

Demon6324236

02-03-2013, 03:17 PM

Regain added a bit of damage, 8.3% Haste can be made up, Refresh allows your mages to heal you more consistently in areas where you are not bringing PD for your zerg such as Salvage, which is an event I use it in daily and find it very useful for. The only real problem was the duration cut, it should have been from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes, not down to 90 seconds, thats the only real problem with the entire change.

OmnysValefor

02-03-2013, 07:17 PM

Then there's the elephant in the room. It's not just that you need certain jobs to do it. Most people doing it are cheating (NNI). They don't necessarily want to cheat, but they don't want to slam their head into a wall with bad runs of ludicrous floors.

Not condoning the cheating at all, and don't want to get into the ethics of it, but the key reason SE REALLY needs to nix or embrace those programs is they'd get a real handle the difficulty of content.

* Obviously they will never embrace players running through walls, looking through walls, or speedhaxxing around.

Zohnax

02-04-2013, 03:59 AM

Wanting the game to be adjusted to your schedule is pretty self-centered. I'm in college now and I still make time/have time leftover to do things with a small group of friends every night.
Your lock-out glitch got patched months ago, in regards to Meebles.
The 600 Summoning Skill for Perfect Defense is only a placeholder until they figure it all out. Obviously, 600 skill is impossible.
As far as Embrava goes, it will still have it's situational uses compared to that ridiculous new 2hr. Added Regen on top of Regen V is still nice for various NMs and if they are leaving some Haste at least, it's not that big a deal. The Embrava nerf is a direct result of the dependency on it for Legion, NNI, Prov. Watcher, and the list can probably go on.
Finally, how are you spending three hours in Dynamis and only getting 2 coins? >_>

Darrt

02-04-2013, 06:56 AM

The game has already been adjusted to my schedule. I'm glad you have time to do stuff with your friends, not all of us have friends that play ffxi. I did not know meebles got patched so thank you for that bit of info, 20 hours is still a ridiculous wait though. The embrava nerf is a result of SE not knowing how to balance shit. Who the hell thought an NM that vomits AOE attacks that deal ridiculous damage along with a plethora of status effects was a good idea. Then to fix it; SE: We realize some of the players are upset with the PD/Embrava nerf, so we have adjusted the events that needed their use. Playerbase: YAY. SE: We have lowered the monsters HP in these events by xx% /closeenough. Playerbase: FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Finally, how are you spending three hours in Dynamis and only getting 2 coins? >_>

Good thing you are a college student because its time for a history lesson. Once upon a time you could only enter dynamis once every 3 days, with 35 other players. This was called a dynamis shell. See back in the day there were whole shells of people dedicated to some kind of event(s). Now unlike today, where dynamis is a one time fee of 50K, back then it was a fee of 1 mil, every time. Eventually, they reduced it to 500k. Now if someone sponsored the run, they got all the currency and you got whatever scraps of relic dropped that the people who have 239284759286572956 "points" didn't want. This went on for 3 hours because that is the max amount of time you could spend in the zone.

Jaall

02-04-2013, 07:20 AM

Once upon a time you could only enter dynamis once every 3 days, with 35 other players. This was called a dynamis shell. See back in the day there were whole shells of people dedicated to some kind of event(s). Now unlike today, where dynamis is a one time fee of 50K, back then it was a fee of 1 mil, every time. Eventually, they reduced it to 500k. Now if someone sponsored the run, they got all the currency and you got whatever scraps of relic dropped that the people who have 239284759286572956 "points" didn't want. This went on for 3 hours because that is the max amount of time you could spend in the zone.

Good old Dyna... 3 years of dyna every 3 days and only ever got 2 pieces of Valor! Don't miss that at all.

Babekeke

02-04-2013, 04:02 PM

@ OP: are you this guy? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2rWbHIMQsQ)

Yinnyth

02-04-2013, 05:49 PM

Good thing you are a college student because its time for a history lesson. Once upon a time you could only enter dynamis once every 3 days, with 35 other players. This was called a dynamis shell. See back in the day there were whole shells of people dedicated to some kind of event(s). Now unlike today, where dynamis is a one time fee of 50K, back then it was a fee of 1 mil, every time. Eventually, they reduced it to 500k. Now if someone sponsored the run, they got all the currency and you got whatever scraps of relic dropped that the people who have 239284759286572956 "points" didn't want. This went on for 3 hours because that is the max amount of time you could spend in the zone.

You, sir, should brush up on your history. First of all, "Once upon a time..." is how fairy tales start, not history lessons. Second, before CoP runs, the entry limit was far higher than 36 people. It was equal to the number of people allowed signed into a linkshell at any given time (56, I believe? I could be wrong on that...) Third of all, the max amount of time you could spend in a zone was 3.5 hours for the original runs and 2 hours for CoP runs.

Fourth, seriously, how did you only get 2 coins in 3 hours? You must either spend most of your playtime afk or have the worst drop luck in the universe. Oh wait, exaggeration. Your statement is less factual and more hyperbole illustrating the point that you want access to all the things that full-time players of the game have while investing only 3 hours per week into the game. Tell me, how is your major-league football career coming along? Oh, they still haven't drafted you despite the fact that you have thrown a football a least once a year? That's unfair and everyone should stop watching football so they go out of business.

In all seriousness(no more sarcasm from me in this post), I don't have the same playtime I used to have. My gear is not 100% up-to-date, so I'm not uber-endgame anymore. That being said, I don't mind that there are people who are better equipped than me. I don't mind that I've never beaten legion. I hardly even do voidwatch because I don't really like the way that event works.

It's ok that there are aspects of the game that aren't for me. When's the last time you've done moblin maze mongers? The mechanics of it are actually fairly fun, it's just the rewards suck by today's standards. I did a couple dualboxed solo runs the other day just to pass the time and see what the crafting ones were like. What's my point? There's craploads of stuff you can do in this game.

You may fool other people, but you're just another elitist who lacks the time and commitment to become elite, so you seek an alternate route: threatening the devs so if they don't bring you up to the same status as anyone who wastes every hour of their life on this game that you will stop paying them. Your threats will fall upon deaf ears, and you know it. Save us all the trouble and make your choice in silence: stay and enjoy the progress you CAN make, or leave and lament the shinies you will never posess.

Edit: For those of you who are not from the United States, I apologize in advance for my ignorant use of the word "football". Your futbol is a rich and entertaining past-time, but one should not throw a futbol once per year, unless they are a goalie.

Chocobits

02-04-2013, 07:21 PM

Not quoting above cuz it's long, but generally I'm in agreement, although hours after the super bowl is too soon for football analogies - some of us are butthurt! :) Not me, but others I'm sure.

What I love about FFXI is that, I took a 14 month break to focus on my career, my relationship with my married GF, and my life in general. I missed the game and came back after the announcement of a pending expansion pack, as I'm sure many did.

When I left, my BLU was near-perfect on gear (only 85 on my Almace though), my BLM was in good shape (minus magian staves, still using 8/8 HQ), and my WAR, while not perfectly geared still had 4/5 Emp +2, full merits and some choice pieces. I come back and BLU is lol again outside of Abyssea, and everyone has consumed all the 2 1/2 content pieces outside of Abyssea, and with nothing better to do or spend their money on, they farmed up relics and even mythics and then raised them all to max. And my LS had broken due to everyone wanting to join one of the 3 top shells and some humorous love triangle drama. So I come back and I get lol'd all the way back to Windurst Waters to turn in my Adventurer's Coupon all over again.

As easy as relics are to obtain, I just don't have it in me to make one. I have multiple jobs leveled but the only job I have leveled worth making a weapon for would be WAR.. except that I would rather work on my BLU, despite it not being utilized in Legion/PW at all. I don't want to relic/emp a secondary job just to have access to content to gear my preferred jobs.

The moral of this story: Don't leave the game to pursue love, happiness and success. Quitters never win. If I hadn't quit I probably woulda broken down and just maxed out WAR so that I could enjoy all the endgame stuffs.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-04-2013, 10:52 PM

Don't leave the game to pursue love, happiness and success.

And people wonder why there aren't any new players...

Yrusama

02-06-2013, 12:30 AM

Jaall you have a good point, however, they cannot just let FFXI fall to the wayside before FFXIV is cemented in as a viable MMO to spend time playing. The way FFXIV tanked when first released will certainly affect how it is received when ARR comes out, though i honestly hope that it succeeds. If it were to fail again, i imagine SE would be in quite a bit of financial trouble.

FINALLY some honest and overall positive words about XIV from the XI community. I don't see this often, and it depresses me as a player of both. Damn the rest of the world for trying to tear me in two.

FFXI is considered the most profitable Final Fantasy, even over FFVII. They aren't likely to drop the subscription fee, nor do I expect them to shut down anytime soon. I recently read that FFXI was running out of space for new maps until they did something that allowed Adoulin. I don't know how much more they can do after Adoulin, but I really think it's way too soon to start talking about SE pulling the plug (though I admit their release of the PlayOnline music kinda got to me). We haven't even seen the new content in action yet! I just hope all of Adoulin won't require top-geared players to complete, though SE has always been pretty good about keeping the main story beatable.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-06-2013, 01:14 AM

FINALLY some honest and overall positive words about XIV from the XI community. I don't see this often, and it depresses me as a player of both. Damn the rest of the world for trying to tear me in two.

That's not "the world," that's S-E.

Consider: other than a brief discount period, if someone is going to subscribe to two different MMO's, there's no reason or incentive for both of them to be Final Fantasy titles. Seeing a linkshell mate leave XI to go play XIV is no different from them leaving to play WoW or EVE or any number of other titles that have zero connection to XI. The XI and XIV communities are segregated and partitioned because S-E built them that way.

On top of that, the animosity of XI players can be easily justified by the way the XI playerbase was used as the source of funds to prop up XIV for over two years. XI players got little to show for this sacrifice while XIV players got a lifetime discount on their MMO of choice, an MMO that again has absolutely zero ties or connections to XI.

In the end, XIV is not just a competitor (rather than a complement) to XI, but one that has bled XI dry moreso than any other.

Tanama

02-06-2013, 02:43 AM

I honestly think Final Fantasy XI and A Realm Reborn will go the way of Everquest and Everquest II. They both exist together and have an active player base. Everquest I continues to churn out expansions every year. I'm not sure about EQII's expansions but EQI is about thirteen or fourteen years old now with no signs of it dying.

Here's to another ten years for FFXI and a successful launch for ARR.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-06-2013, 03:47 AM

SE has always been pretty good about keeping the main story beatable.

I can attest that A Crystalline Prophecy still sucks at 99, starting with "Those Who Lurk in Shadows (III)." That stuff is harder that much of old-school CoP, and CoP was capped.

Zagen

02-06-2013, 04:15 AM

I can attest that A Crystalline Prophecy still sucks at 99, starting with "Those Who Lurk in Shadows (III)." That stuff is harder that much of old-school CoP, and CoP was capped.
That depends on the jobs you have available. BST and BLU can get through ACP. Only the final fight takes good skill/gear to do.

Rezeak

02-06-2013, 08:29 AM

I am the grammar hammer, so it pains me to reply to you without correcting your spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and grammar. However, I am capable of understanding your underlying message, so tell us: which endgame linkshells did you see quit the game, and what was their reason?

Thanks for the corrections.

I was in kizunas and while it wasn't the entire ls, from it's 8 yearish run of over 100+ members coming and going, the 30-40 odd that stuck around longer than a few months, there is maybe 2-5 that still play.

As for there reasons, as you said part of it was being older and unable to keep reupdating their gear every 3-6 months as SE made it obsolete because the timesinks were too large. One of the other sides of it was the boredom we made 50+ emeryans and I'm telling you now a part of my soul has died farming Glavoids and Chloris over and over.

Either way, moving on as it came to the end of the linkshell we were still doing VW,Abys,Limbus,Legion. The problem was this for me and the last 4-6 that left at the same time, was that we all had jobs that were near perfect with just nothing to do except the same stuff over and over and honestly every day it was just grind for gil or abyssea items. We did LimbusV2 and Legion and well Limbus was good but the recast was forever and with Legion, once we cleared it a few times the gear wasn't worth the effort of organizing the runs.So we were all hungry for new content and neo-salvage was miles away and burrows was only 10 mins a day :( so we basically just all quit for a while to play steam games together and such until there was new content and well we enjoyed more than FFXI which we still haven't come back.

I know it's a bit long winded and I don't think my point is too clear, but alot of my linkshell left FFXI because of the repetitive nature of timesinks placed in the game and the lack of anything else to do. As for other linkshells all i need to do is look at my inactive friendlist to see all those people that left and never came back some for the same reason as me and some for others.

Cruentus

02-06-2013, 04:32 PM

I agree with you that SE don't do enough but this games really old now and they're bringing out FFXIV. It's as if they're just waiting for it to die and are squeezing as much money as they can out of it before it inevitably dies. I think I speak for most people when I say we've been expecting the end for the past year or so, it's just a matter of when, and how it will end. I think SE have come to terms with that and are just casually keeping the majority of the player base happy (which happens to be JP) to keep the money coming in until that time. It's like, say a new console is released in a specific brand - Sony make a Playstation 4 for example - they wouldn't keep working on updates for the PS3 because you would just move on. The times come for FFXIV and it looks promising so now they aren't caring so much about FFXI. It's just life, happens with everything.

But how old is World of Warcraft? How old is RuneScape? The age of an MMORPG shouldn't be a factor when deciding whether to keep it updated or not.

And besides, Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XIV work in very different ways. We should not be forced to "move on" to a completely different game under any circumstances, especially when so many of us don't have the money for a new computer/console on which to play the new game, because our current systems cannot run the new game.

Personally, I prefer Final Fantasy XI to Final Fantasy XIV. I'm sure many other players do, too. We don't want this game to die just because newer games exist. We want this game to be fixed up and made fun again. The only way that can happen is if the development team reads every last post on this forum and others like it. Sure, good discussions may be like needles in a haystack, but they're worth searching for.

Jaall

02-06-2013, 04:53 PM

I'm not being pessimistic and saying what could happen I'm simply stating the obvious and saying what is happening. It's the nature of the world to move on and the majority of the dev team has probably moved with the old director. We can't expect changes right away now and we certainly can't expect them to keep up to everyones standards because they have more important things to be working on. I really have high hopes for FFXIV too and all of their effort will be going on that because it will probably take over FFXI's spot as the no.1 money maker for SE, and I think that's what their intentions were from the beginning. Like I said, not trying to say FFXI is dying because it won't truly die for a very very long time, but it was even officially stated that the dev team have moved to FFXIV, and that's why it's not as active as it was before. Also yes WoW is old and Runescape is older but firstly Runescape is nothing to compare to FFXI and WoW has no other counterpart because it's already the single most populated MMO game out there. They really don't "need" to create "WoW 2".

Tanama

02-06-2013, 08:36 PM

Yinnyth

02-06-2013, 09:54 PM

I believe one of the issues we have now that needs to be addressed is the rate at which our feedback reaches the developers and the rate at which we receive responses from them. Sure, it is easier for the dev-team to respond to the JP players because of the whole language barrier. And I do not know how well Mr. Matsui and company can write in English but when I see Mr. Naoki Yoshida (Yoshi P) respond to NA players with his limited English skills, it really warms my heart and raises my hopes or morale if you will. He really shows you how interested and caring he is for the FFXIV players world-wide.

I only wish us FFXI players received that kind of treatment.

What treatment? FFXIV and FFXI have the same damned community reps, and the same damned parent company. You think your feedback reaches the devs faster on the lodestone than it does here? Read the names of the English reps on both forums.

This opportunity is also too delicious for me to pass up: You're saying that the team on FFXIV listens to its players better than the FFXI team. Yet 14 has to reboot their whole freaking game to make it appetizing. Either listening to its players is not all there is to making a game great, or FFXI devs actually listen to their players better than FFXIV devs.

Damane

02-06-2013, 09:54 PM

Short Answer: Bullcrap

When these forums first started, there was plenty of optimism and great ideas. The devs would respond, but with cryptic generic "look into it text" After awhile, people started to notice that they weren't taking any of our ideas at all. Soon came waves of terrible patches, while the community cried out to stop them, the devs did nothing. We have every right to be annoyed, angry, and frankly a little ticked off because our money is being wasted on crap that shouldn't be adjusted. I tried there way of being "nice and constructive." Know where that got us??? Absolutely nothing.

Were not idiots, we know when were not being listened to. I want whats best for the game, as does everyone. But this isn't the right direction. Everyone knows it, but again, who's listening.

This is definitly not true. If your Idea and proposals are reasonable and well written out the Dev team will definitly look into it. Of course they cant do everything, and prolly wont depending what shedule they have and how it would impact the game.

I proposed 6 months ago to reduce the wait time on Limbus and Einherjar from 72 hours to 20 hours on the german forums. (Matsui list with proposed exchanges when he took over FFXI)
They are working on an enmity fix as was wished by many people
They are working on a attack/def fix, so defense does matter more, as wished by many people.
upcoming Legion fix with lowering mob lvls or HP, as wished by many people.
NNI adjustments as wished by many people.

Of course they cant do everything and wont. But so far it seems what they can do they would do, so I am very satisfied so far with how Mr. Matsui has been handling things. Thumbs up.

sc4500

02-06-2013, 10:20 PM

AMEN , what you the poster has said is true, I have not read all the other comments at this time. Ever modern MMO in this day and age is free to play or pay monthly listens to there fans and then some. Over the Years i i have grown up with the developers of other games , that have played this game and many of the new mmos and one thing they they found out is, listen to your fans (anywhere in the world if you are going to be a global company not a japanese company then say it and not allow the game to be global so not p'o your fans, in the rest of the world. ) even if the fans are wrong ,or not there ideas will save you a ton of money, many them work on jobs off hour time that can tell coding and other things that is not in a NA document, yet square got a block ear on there fans.

Why i play this game still is on a console ps2 for a few years then xbox360 , got a good story, feels like a real world, got good people that you can meet with the unknown ones, also i have 8 years on xbox live and not to many games i been on the xbox360 that i have never met a person at one time . that played this game on the ps2 or there cpu fyi

Tanama

02-06-2013, 11:36 PM

What treatment? FFXIV and FFXI have the same damned community reps, and the same damned parent company. You think your feedback reaches the devs faster on the lodestone than it does here? Read the names of the English reps on both forums.

This opportunity is also too delicious for me to pass up: You're saying that the team on FFXIV listens to its players better than the FFXI team. Yet 14 has to reboot their whole freaking game to make it appetizing. Either listening to its players is not all there is to making a game great, or FFXI devs actually listen to their players better than FFXIV devs.

You must be reading both forums upside down or you have been doing a terrible job of keeping up with dev-responses. If you did, you would clearly see what I mean. I understand FFXIV is getting more attention right now due to it's massive relaunch project. FFXIV is doing a better job of listening to their general playerbase for obvious reasons. 14's future depends on it.

Also, anyone who reads both the FFXI and FFXIV forums knows they both have the same community team.

Daniel

02-07-2013, 12:20 AM

I think the point of events like Legion and NNI was to give more experienced players a challenge, you can still do NNI and get level 80 gear with most setups and that 80 gear is still fairly good. I do have to agree with you on limbus, not adding af +2 was shear laziness on their part.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-07-2013, 01:10 AM

I do have to agree with you on limbus, not adding af +2 was shear laziness on their part.

To be honest I'm not quite sure how they would do that. The AF+1 by itself is already a complete pain the rear to acquire, even compared to relic+1. You need two different drops, nobody is quite sure what drops where, the drops themselves don't give any clues what they're for...

So how do you introduce AF+2 that is both attainable but not necessarily more attainable than AF+1? I think they'd need to adjust AF+1 acquisition itself first, to bring it more in line with new Dynamis drop rates (from even before the reservation system was abandoned).

Karah

02-07-2013, 01:35 AM

Absolutely -nothing- is even semi difficult about obtaining af1+1. Use the wiki, look at what drops where. Solo it on (almost) ANY job. obtain it. 2 days.

One day per zone, if it doesn't drop, 4 days pretty much maximum. (except newer jobs, the drop rates on pup blu sch dnc cor are pretty bad truth be told).

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-07-2013, 02:07 AM

Absolutely -nothing- is even semi difficult about obtaining af1+1. Use the wiki, look at what drops where. Solo it on (almost) ANY job. obtain it. 2 days.

Relics: all relic -1 hats drop in Dynamis - Valkurm. All jobs, all hats, all Nightmare beasts. Period.

Artifacts: all jobs need one EX item each from Temenos and Apollyon, but which sections of Temenos and Apollyon? What floors of which sections? What monsters, if any?

One day per zone

Then the best-case scenario is that it takes twice as long as getting the single EX item necessary for upgrading a relic piece.

EDIT: Hell, including the NQ piece itself, farming for two EX items is enough to get you from no relic piece at all to relic+1. And the drop rate on NQ pieces has been dialed up.

Daniel

02-07-2013, 04:15 AM

Relics: all relic -1 hats drop in Dynamis - Valkurm. All jobs, all hats, all Nightmare beasts. Period.

Artifacts: all jobs need one EX item each from Temenos and Apollyon, but which sections of Temenos and Apollyon? What floors of which sections? What monsters, if any?

Then the best-case scenario is that it takes twice as long as getting the single EX item necessary for upgrading a relic piece.

EDIT: Hell, including the NQ piece itself, farming for two EX items is enough to get you from no relic piece at all to relic+1. And the drop rate on NQ pieces has been dialed up.

I recommend the internet, web sights like ffxiwiki have pretty detailed drop tables, on top of that most jobs can solo Limbus. It is far from hard to get the right item.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-07-2013, 04:41 AM

web sights like ffxiwiki have pretty detailed drop tables

All half-populated with "?" and too infrequently updated by the playerbase, especially now with the new, higher level caps.

Again: this is in comparison to CoP Dynamis, where Valkurm is "all hats, all beasts, all the time." No spreadsheets required.

on top of that most jobs can solo Limbus. It is far from hard to get the right item.

And most jobs can solo Nightmare beasts. The difficulty of the fighting itself is roughly the same. The advantages for relic upgrades are that only one EX item is required (less fighting necessary), and that one item is very widely available (every Beast throughout an entire, single zone). AF+1 requires both more farming and a higher degree of precision in that farming, for inferior equipment.

There are probably more players who completed a relic+1 set without even trying than the total number of players who have completed an artifact+1 set.

Karah

02-07-2013, 07:03 AM

The wiki is more than reliable for limbus drops, any time ive ever wanted a piece, (for someone else, I wouldn't be caught dead in 99% of af1+1) I took 2 minutes, wiki'd limbus > checked the zones, went there. Got it.

As for RELIC NQ/+1/+2 there's no longer any feasible reason to +1, go straight to +2. Getting the base to drop can be annoying, but the wiki's are explicit in what drops where.

if you're rotating mobs for proc times, you have equal chance at all drops in said zone. Nightmares drop acc.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-07-2013, 08:01 AM

"Consult a spreadsheet on a third-party wiki" = broken game mechanic. There can be no rational argument otherwise.

In contrast, a player can discern who drops what in Dynamis - Valkurm (level 71 NQ from all Vanguard, hat -1 from all Nightmare) in as little as a single trip to the area, with absolutely zero need for crowdsourced data analysis(!).

On top of that, depending on the job, a player can acquire all the necessary EX items for a relic+1 from a single Dynamis run.

Demonmaniac

02-07-2013, 01:06 PM

Jaall

02-07-2013, 05:26 PM

Tbh there are a lot of ideas put across on the English forums however it's a 1 sided debate because the admins hardly ever respond and when they do they, 99% of the time, wont follow up on their response. There's never a conversation with them, it's always just a single post answer and that's final. If we could get a debate going with the devs involved, even if we didn't get the ideas happening, it would give us a sense of being involved and a sense that our voices are being heard. I don't translate and read the japanese forums but from what I can tell, they're a lot more involved with the jp community and there are a lot more posts from the devs there.

Venat

02-07-2013, 05:55 PM

#1 Lack of SE support for FFXI
#2 Dev's dont pay enough attention to FFXI community.
#3 Quality of updates are poor/too slow/weak.
#4 Not enough people working on the game.
#5 Dropping Ps2 support and upgrading UI/graphics.

Venat

02-07-2013, 06:01 PM

SpankWustler

02-08-2013, 02:44 AM

They strive on ideas and make them better, and only after a debate and conversation with both player base and admin do they come up with good ideas; only because the Japanese forums are respectful.

In order for things like "debate" and "conversation" to happen, two parties must be present. In order for me to write metaphors about giant insects having tea atop a haunted tank, only I must be present. I don't see the point in pretending posts clearly intended as final responses are part of a conversation when I can have more fun and accomplish the same amount of nothing by comparing the ineffectiveness of a spell to the predetermined fate of a Calvinist bear-wrestler.

Yinnyth

02-08-2013, 05:51 AM

Alot of FFXI players want 14 to fail but if it did it would probably destroy FFXI mainly due to SE being in financial crisis. SE been putting 300~500+ people to work on the game alone and SE been using there own money to fund FFXIV, not the stock market cash.

I think MMOs are more profitable than you may realize. If FFXI were not pulling its own, we would not be here talking right now. They would also probably cut off their own arm sooner than cut FFXI.

#1 Lack of SE support for FFXI
#2 Dev's dont pay enough attention to FFXI community.
#3 Quality of updates are poor/too slow/weak.
#4 Not enough people working on the game.
#5 Dropping Ps2 support and upgrading UI/graphics.

#1 How do you fix that?
#2 How do you fix that?
#3 How do you fix that?
#4 How do you fix that?
#5 How do y- oh wait, that one was a suggestion.

All of these things require money to fix (well, 2 is arguable, but the others). It feels like SE doesn't support their game well enough because we remember a time when the game was pulling in over a million dollars a month in subscription fees. You can do a crapload of stuff with that kind of money. If you want things to go back to the way they were, we either need a large influx of players or we all have to start paying more. And I'm not talking about "hey, I'm willing to throw a few more bucks per month at the game", I'm talking about every account of every player costing 5x as much as it used to.

Zeroe

02-08-2013, 06:33 AM

You guys want to make the game too easy.
Plus, most Americans just sit on these forums and rant and complain and blame the admins for everything while the JP forums are the exact opposite.
They strive on ideas and make them better, and only after a debate and conversation with both player base and admin do they come up with good ideas; only because the Japanese forums are respectful.

This is a prime example.

Bullcrap.
If your proactive in reading the forums, you'll see just as many complaint threads as helpful ones in there as well.
Don't sit there and pretend in your rainbow and sunshine land that the Devs are continually listening to us. There not. We hardly ever get a response once a week, unless there announcing some event. Sometimes you need to be blunt with the truth if you ever want people to listen.

Yinnyth

02-08-2013, 07:04 AM

Bullcrap.
If your proactive in reading the forums, you'll see just as many complaint threads as helpful ones in there as well.
Don't sit there and pretend in your rainbow and sunshine land that the Devs are continually listening to us. There not. We hardly ever get a response once a week, unless there announcing some event. Sometimes you need to be blunt with the truth if you ever want people to listen.

You make it sound like they're willfully attempting to ignore us. They don't have the resources to respond to the dozens of ideas raised by players every week, nor do they have the resources to implement them, even assuming they were a good idea. I prefer their current system of limited responses to saying: "Thank you for your feedback, but we don't currently have the resources to pursue these changes" everytime a person asks for super mentorship ingame.

Anapingofness

02-08-2013, 04:55 PM

What this game really needs is to catch up to the present date in terms of how people play. That is to say, more casual friendly stuff and less time sink.
They need rewards that are not mere side-grades of per-existing gear and weapons.
They need to get rid of old and unused content and implement fresh, actually fun content.
In addition to that, and something that is just as important as the change in play style is new blood. This game needs new blood, badly. Sadly, they already said that they won't attract new players and that's just disappointing.

How do they do these things?
Well, firstly by looking at how far FFXI has come. They have a what, ten years? to look back on and see what worked and didn't work. Then, after looking at FFXI's accomplishments and blunders, then look at the things that worked for other MMO's and pick what can be adapted to fit FFXI, not turn FFXI into a clone whatever.

Anyway, I didn't want to rant but I did wanna give my opinion.
Take care all. ^^

Dazusu

02-08-2013, 07:16 PM

How do they do these things?
Well, firstly by looking at how far FFXI has come. They have a what, ten years? to look back on and see what worked and didn't work.

Incidentally the game was most active during the 'hardcore' grindy era. Since Abyssea and beyond - content has become easy and short lived due to the massive cries of things like: "VW drop rate is so bad, let us sell the gear/give it to people" - We get the token system, everyone gets the gear a lot faster - now, no one bothers with VW.

The people who enjoyed 'grind' have in large, quit. What we're left with are people who demand fresh content continually. Those of you with any development knowledge or experience will know why that's virtually impossible to deliver.

More people have quit since the introduction of easy mode casual than ever before, and you don't need to be a statistical data expert to see how barren most servers are now.

The simple fact is: MMO's are based on grind. Grind can exist and still be casual - the problem begins when people start demanding instant gratification. Instead of working towards something or repeating content with a low drop rate, they'll cry its too hard/takes too long - rather than enjoying the content over and over again. Eventually it gets changed, they get their item pronto and the next line that comes is: "Give us more content."

It's a decade old game. You can't have it all.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-08-2013, 09:37 PM

Final Fantasy XI doesn't exist in a vacuum. Players don't (just) leave because FFXI has become less interesting, but also because the competition has become more interesting.
Players also don't exist in a vacuum; complaints about lack of new content are not without cause. Seekers of Adoulin will be the first new expansion since George W. Bush was in the White House, where previously we received a new expansion on a roughly annual basis.

Yinnyth

02-08-2013, 09:55 PM

You have presented two options which are both unappetizing and unrealistic. Is there no third option?

Edit: Vacuum. I exist within it. Yet vacuum is not all there is. And this is how I exist. Within vacuum. Yet within not-vacuum. In case I'm not being clear(which I'm not until now), complaints about lack of new content are not without [third negative I can't think of] enough money.

Tanama

02-08-2013, 10:23 PM

At least Ziyyigo-Tipyigo made sense in his post. Would you care to explain what is so unappetizing and unrealistic about Ziyyigo's post? Otherwise, you're just trolling.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-08-2013, 11:13 PM

Edit: Vacuum. I exist within it. Yet vacuum is not all there is. And this is how I exist. Within vacuum. Yet within not-vacuum. In case I'm not being clear(which I'm not until now), complaints about lack of new content are not without [third negative I can't think of] enough money.

I am Tarutaru. I am one with many [fingers].
My [fingers] reach through into [heavy space] and you [see] [Tarutaru bubbles]
but it is really [fingers].
Maybe you do not even [smell]? That is sad.
[Smelling] [pretty colors] is the best [game].

Vitus

02-09-2013, 02:27 AM

Incidentally the game was most active during the 'hardcore' grindy era. Since Abyssea and beyond - content has become easy and short lived due to the massive cries of things like: "VW drop rate is so bad, let us sell the gear/give it to people" - We get the token system, everyone gets the gear a lot faster - now, no one bothers with VW.

The people who enjoyed 'grind' have in large, quit. What we're left with are people who demand fresh content continually. Those of you with any development knowledge or experience will know why that's virtually impossible to deliver.

More people have quit since the introduction of easy mode casual than ever before, and you don't need to be a statistical data expert to see how barren most servers are now.

The simple fact is: MMO's are based on grind. Grind can exist and still be casual - the problem begins when people start demanding instant gratification. Instead of working towards something or repeating content with a low drop rate, they'll cry its too hard/takes too long - rather than enjoying the content over and over again. Eventually it gets changed, they get their item pronto and the next line that comes is: "Give us more content."

It's a decade old game. You can't have it all.

Sorry to bust your bubbles, but you've got things all messed up. Abyssea saved FFXI. Probably a handful of idiots in your niche or backward thinkers quit FFXI because of its loosen up on extreme grind. If your vehicle gets old and out of date, I would advice you to replace it. If you wish to get stuck in an old 20mile/gal car with a cassette player and no AC or GPS, it is your choice. You can grind 20k/hr xp or better yet 5k/hr, all you want, the options are still open to you and your friends. You can rant all you want about how spoiled people are in their shiny new cars or how easy it is now to get shiny stuff that you spent years to obtain, but the fact is time has changed and people have moved on for the better.

The simple truth is FFXI has to evolve or it will gradually fade away. This game is 10yr old, and the population is precipitated down to mostly SE loyal fans. They are getting older, having family and social obligations. No fan in their right mind would spend their valuable time, for hours, on mindless grind. The key for FFXI to survive in this age is to provide content for those fans as well. There is nothing impossible about spitting out content once in every few months. SE is much more capable than that.

I'm at the fence right now, I'll wait to see if the new expansion opens up to more casual friendly content. If their focus is still 3+ people content, I will have to say final goodbye to FFXI.

SpankWustler

02-09-2013, 07:04 AM

Incidentally the game was most active during the 'hardcore' grindy era.

This was also when FFXI was much newer than it is right now and the MMORPG market was much smaller than it is right now. Correlation does not always imply causation.

Not that I think people saying the opposite have a point, either; I just can't find a succinct quote from anybody taking that position. I think the scale and context of the whole debate is silly.

Anybody saying "This is definitely, most certainly bad for FFXI as a whole and it will make a lot of people quit," or "That made lots of people quit; it wasn't anything else, it was that!" sounds equally ridiculous to me. People are complex and weird and they live complex and weird lives. Presuming to know what makes anybody stop doing anything is overreaching of the highest order, much less presuming to know what makes a small army of people stop doing something.

Rezeak

02-09-2013, 08:44 AM

I don't think FFXI is hard in anyway or really has ever been.

The hardest fight for me, outside of AV, was the omega CoP fight when you were capped.

As for grinding, in my opinion when implemented well it's an awsome thing, for example old nyzle isle climbing the higher you got the more you wanted to play or abyssea or VW clears the more you grinded the stronger you got.

My issue is stuff like New Nyzle and Meebles.

With New nyzle you can either do it or you can't and even though i got 15/15 in like 2 months, it saddens me that i couldn't help out some of my friends because he/she may not have the geared job or getting the other 4 took too long considering the likly hood of failing. If people could of taken 2-10 runs to get a peice 100% of the time (excluding wipes or not exiting in time) I would of enjoyed it more.

Then with meeble i just wanted to play it not wait 20 hours a day to play 10 mins /sigh.

Arcon

02-09-2013, 04:10 PM

This was also when FFXI was much newer than it is right now and the MMORPG market was much smaller than it is right now. Correlation does not always imply causation.

It does, however, indicate causation. That is why the people claiming Abyssea was bad for the growth of FFXI have much more of an argument to back up that statement than the ones claiming the opposite. In fact, I can't think of a solid argument at all for the opposite claim.

Yinnyth

02-09-2013, 05:20 PM

It does, however, indicate causation. That is why the people claiming Abyssea was bad for the growth of FFXI have much more of an argument to back up that statement than the ones claiming the opposite. In fact, I can't think of a solid argument at all for the opposite claim.

Many people think abyssea was the greatest thing to ever happen to the game. It put everyone on the fast track to the top. People believe that this increased the popularity of the game.

The problem that arises from this is that the struggle to reach the top is what keeps a large portion of players playing. Most people prefer trying to get to the top than trying to stay at the top. In addition to this, the people who enjoy trying to stay at the top often don't appreciate when everyone else has the same badge of honor they have (empyrean armor and weapons severely closed the equipment gap between hardcore and casual players).

Since we don't have the metrics to prove which point of view is correct, it remains up to the individual to decide whether Aby was good or bad for FFXI's health. Did Aby increase the number of players because people enjoyed the massive boost in power, or did Aby decrease the number of players because people got bored after they consumed everything Aby had to offer?

Jaall

02-09-2013, 05:22 PM

Abyssea kept players playing through the 75-99 cap. You all heard and saw many players leave because they were going to lose all their beloved 75 gear and the grind to 99 was enough to put any player off considering the time it took to get from 70-75. Abyssea made the exp fast and getting to 99 fairly painless at the cost of less fun. The point for Abyssea that I can see was to save people quitting because all their effort was wasted. FFXI didn't lose everyone, or even close to everyone because of this so I can happily say it succeeded in its goals if that was the case.

Also being able to join at lvl 30 allows newer players to get to the fun part of the game which is the endgame. FFXI now very much relies on it's endgame for enjoyment and strategy, and always has. I've heard of and known of many people who got to lvl 30 and couldn't stand doing more grinding to get to 75. Not every player is hardcore and can't play every hour of every day, so a party that takes a few hours to set up is most of some peoples play time. Abyssea is instant on most occasions. It has definitely brought more players to the game, not as many as any other game because it is old, bad graphics and simply is not appealing to most people, but as a recommendation I could easily sell this new FFXI whereas I have had a hard time selling the old FFXI - mainly due to the grind involved. It would usually go something like this "Yea you should totally get this game, it's fantastic - There's Sky where you fight guards, which then let you fight the games gods themselves! Theres even blah blah blah.... But.... you have to spend 6-12 months grinding your character up for hours everyday!". They'd usually just respond "**** that!!". So Abyssea was a good move and imo has very much saved FFXI as much as it could. It has changed the mechanics of the game but that is the only way it could survive. Adapt to survive and all that.

Arcon

02-09-2013, 07:28 PM

Many people think abyssea was the greatest thing to ever happen to the game. It put everyone on the fast track to the top. People believe that this increased the popularity of the game.

That's precisely what I meant. No evidence to support that statement, just dubious and unsupported quantifications like "many think" or "most prefer" and things like that. And I don't blame people for that, because that's all that can be said, because we simply don't have accurate data for that argument. We can't even say for certain how many players we lost or gained, because we don't have data on that either. All we do have is second-hand data like the FFXIAH player database, and the passive indicators about servers being merged along with averaged online numbers gained by "/sea all", all of which point towards a significant player loss slightly before, during and after the Abyssea era. Everything else is guesswork or confirmation bias.

Alhanelem

02-10-2013, 02:30 AM

It does, however, indicate causation. That is why the people claiming Abyssea was bad for the growth of FFXI have much more of an argument to back up that statement than the ones claiming the opposite. In fact, I can't think of a solid argument at all for the opposite claim.This is a load of crap. MMOs always plateau and then shrink over time. FFXI had been on a population decline since long before abyssea came out. It is extremely flawed to argue that abyssea *caused* it. Affected it, perhaps. Not caused.

FFXI had more players in the "hardcore grindy era" because FFXI was newer at the time. There is no other reason. Not everyone plays an MMO forever- many people hop from one to another whenever they get bored. Hell, I hopped to WoW for a while, hit max level, got bored, came back here later.

The only way in which Abyssea was truly bad for the growth of the game is it left people who play the game for no reason other than to grind XP (I don't understand why anyone plays an MMO only to grind and not experience the storyline/environment/content/etc) with not much to do a lot sooner than it would have otherwise.

People quit the game for a variety of reasons as time goes on. It's massively presumptuous of anyone to think they know a primary/sole cause.

Arcon

02-10-2013, 05:14 AM

This is a load of crap. [..] It is extremely flawed to argue that abyssea *caused* it. Affected it, perhaps. Not caused.

Which is exactly why I didn't say that?

Alhanelem

02-10-2013, 07:35 AM

Which is exactly why I didn't say that? You said "It does, however, indicate causation," which indicates to me that's what you think and that you support that notion, even though you didn't explicitly state it. If this isn't what you think, then why did you make the quoted statement?

Arcon

02-10-2013, 01:53 PM

You said "It does, however, indicate causation," which indicates to me that's what you think and that you support that notion, even though you didn't explicitly state it. If this isn't what you think, then why did you make the quoted statement?

I do very well think that and absolutely support that notion, but that is entirely irrelevant to what I said. If two trends are similar, it always indicates a correlation. That does not mean they actually do correlate, but that the signs for a correlation are there. That's what the word indication means. And even if it did cause it, I never claimed that it was the sole or primary reason, as you accused me of, because that would be retarded. I can think of a very large list of reasons why playing FFXI is stupid and why people should quit. Abyssea isn't even in the top 10.

The signs for what people opposing the idea say, however, are not there. There are no signs whatsoever that Abyssea "saved" FFXI. There are no subscription number reports supporting that. The early forum posts at the time are not supporting that. The current concurrent online numbers are not supporting that. All the people who favor that idea can really say is how it affected them and their friends. And that's a subjective opinion.

Jaall

02-10-2013, 06:46 PM

You know an arguments silly when you have to start defining correlation and indication lol.

Yinnyth

02-11-2013, 02:10 AM

That's precisely what I meant. No evidence to support that statement, just dubious and unsupported quantifications like "many think" or "most prefer" and things like that.

And what evidence is there to the contrary? The fact that fewer people play the game now than did before Abyssea? That would be the case even if Abyssea had never been released. Since we can't know how many people would have left without Abyssea, and we don't have an exact number of people who left during Abyssea, it's impossible to use this as proof that Abyssea was bad for the game.

You seem to be making the same logical leap that other people are making, just in the opposite direction. Overall, I believe the massive leap in player strength and ease of playing was bad for the game. But I have no proof. So I have no right to demand people who hold the opposite belief to present evidence when I can provide none myself.

Jaall

02-11-2013, 02:27 AM

I think people are leaving the game simply because the people who used to play all them years ago were mostly teenagers etc, and the game has been out for many years. The people who started when they were 13 are now into their late teens or 20's and consequently have other commitments than gaming. This on top of the fact that FFXI has a lot of other competition, which have a lot more advertising than FFXI, and the fact that FFXIV is just round the corner has led to a decline of the overall population. New players aren't joining as much as they used to so SE have to make up for that by introducing ways to lvl fast but the population is still declining.

So basically to sum up - FFXI is suffering from old age, and I personally think the impact that Abyssea has on the game is in no way relevant to people leaving. The level cap on the other hand was, but that was a long time ago and people left before they introduced it. People just play the "blame game" and Abyssea is an easy target due to being so different. Of course nobody can really know because nobody submits a survey when they quit this game, so like every argument on here, it's just speculation and opinion, but seriously people - stop blaming Abyssea for every wrong in this game, there are a lot of other reasons why things have gone wrong and a lot of things that have gone right in the game since.

Vitus

02-11-2013, 05:08 AM

Karah

02-11-2013, 05:47 AM

detlef

02-11-2013, 05:48 AM

I think people are leaving the game simply because the people who used to play all them years ago were mostly teenagers etc, and the game has been out for many years. The people who started when they were 13 are now into their late teens or 20's and consequently have other commitments than gaming. This on top of the fact that FFXI has a lot of other competition, which have a lot more advertising than FFXI, and the fact that FFXIV is just round the corner has led to a decline of the overall population. New players aren't joining as much as they used to so SE have to make up for that by introducing ways to lvl fast but the population is still declining.Pretty much this. The people who played FFXI in 2005 are 8 years older now than they were then. So much can change in that time, including what you want out of the game and what you are willing to put up with. The game was so stagnant before Abyssea. In order to survive, the game had to change because the player base changed.

Yinnyth

02-11-2013, 06:35 AM

Vana'diel for dummies:

Life of Vanadiel Pre-abyssea:
- boring Lv.75 cap
- kill the stupidly looking pink birds repeatedly, day after day, like an autistic maniac for a 'quick ride' to that boring level cap
- then spent a big chunk of the day, everyday, staring at Dragon Aery's darters
- Waste more of your usless life in Behemoth Dominion staring at other idiots
- Mindlessly running around sky fighting for a pop once every few hours like a bunch of stupid fools.
- Use an army of the mentally retarded to farm your relic or being used by greedy bastards to farm their 3rd relic while you don't even have 1M gil next to your name.
- Stupid Limbus and its unreasonably long cooldown and restrictions.

If you still think the above could keep FFXI alive in this date and age, or if you still think the above were enough for people to keep paying monthly fees, there is no way for your undeveloped brain to comprehend how Abyssea saved FFXI.

I'm glad you enjoyed Abyssea so much more than the other expansions. I, however, have an underdeveloped brain because I personally preferred the work they did on CoP to Abyssea. You are certainly welcome to your opinions on what is and is not enjoyable about the game. However, I recommend that you do not forget the fact that you are one individual among many who all have different tastes.

My linkshell crumbled little-by-little during the abyssea expansions until it fully collapsed shortly after HoA. Since we no longer needed the large team and we no longer needed the time investment, people started to go their own ways. Some because they no longer felt needed (any dolt could level and gear my job in no time flat- I'm no longer important to my group). Some because they were extremely hardcore endgamers who didn't like the idea of people who invest 1/10 as much time having gear that was just as good as theirs. Some because they had finally reached the top and felt like they had no where to go. Some because their other friends were leaving the game, so they may as well do the same. Casual games are easier to drop than hard-core games, so when FFXI started transferring more and more towards casual play, many people who had been on the fence finally found it easy to choose to leave.

Clearly, my experience with Abyssea was different from yours. I can see why you would have enjoyed it so much, and I respect your right to enjoy it. For some people Abyssea saved FFXI. For others, it destroyed FFXI.

Areayea

02-11-2013, 08:24 AM

People just play the "blame game" and Abyssea is an easy target due to being so different. Of course nobody can really know because nobody submits a survey when they quit this game, so like every argument on here, it's just speculation and opinion, but seriously people - stop blaming Abyssea for every wrong in this game, there are a lot of other reasons why things have gone wrong and a lot of things that have gone right in the game since.

I don't blame abyssea, if anything I blame devs for assuming that this game will die out. I have an opposite feeling tho, especially since I believe that one FFXIV Reborn comes out it's going to tank, just like it did last time... then devs are going to be scrapping for love on this one again, JUST like last time. difference is this time they'll know they can't revamp it so might just realize how important this game is. IDK just food for thought for now, they might not be listening but they will eventually

Arcon

02-11-2013, 09:32 AM

Since we can't know how many people would have left without Abyssea, and we don't have an exact number of people who left during Abyssea, it's impossible to use this as proof that Abyssea was bad for the game.

Which is, again, precisely what I said. We can't prove anything either way. But since the only evidence we have is pointing to the opposite (subtle (but I (increasingly) feel necessary) note at this point: evidence is not proof, it's an indication (see above)), I feel it's inappropriate for people to play the "Abyssea is good because I like it" card, which seems to be way more popular than it deserves. With that said, all arguments in either direction seem awkwardly silly to me, but silliest of all are the people trying to use psychological statements extrapolated from their own perception of the game as evidence to support their opinion. That is the only thing I wanted to point out.

Yinnyth

02-11-2013, 10:33 AM

Which is, again, precisely what I said. We can't prove anything either way. But since the only evidence we have is pointing to the opposite (subtle (but I (increasingly) feel necessary) note at this point: evidence is not proof, it's an indication (see above)), I feel it's inappropriate for people to play the "Abyssea is good because I like it" card, which seems to be way more popular than it deserves. With that said, all arguments in either direction seem awkwardly silly to me, but silliest of all are the people trying to use psychological statements extrapolated from their own perception of the game as evidence to support their opinion. That is the only thing I wanted to point out.

What evidence is there to support the idea that Abyssea was bad for the game? True, it tore my linkshell apart, but other linkshells were born in that same timeframe. True, fewer people play now than they did before Abyssea, but if that is evidence that Abyssea was bad for the game, then it's evidence that no good changes have been made ever since FFXI was at peak membership.

Volkai

02-11-2013, 11:52 AM

...It has become apparent that the FFXI devs have forgotten that WE pay THEM to play this game. I daresay SE's experience with FF XIV sent the message that WE pay THEM to play their games - or don't pay them to play their games - loud and clear.

...They add content to the game that is incredibly difficult ... If i am paying you my money, however small the amount may be, i sure as hell better be able to participate in / clear any event in the game with whatever setup i choose, and the only thing that should hold me back is that event being a little more difficult if i choose a less than optimal setup. A significant portion of what makes FFXI stand apart from other MMOs is its greater level of challenge. It sounds like you want things to be less challenging than they currently are, which would likely cause a larger portion of the player community to lose interest and quit than it would help to retain or bring back.

Nevermind that you need loot from the old salvage to get the better loot from new salvage, which BTW means if you missed out when TOAU came out, you now need to do 75 content before you can do 99 content because of arbitrary entry limitations. Oh and BTW, good luck getting the drops you need in old school salvage.Your best bet would be to find and gather together a group of fellow players that also need (original) Salvage drops, and go on regular runs with them to get the drops you collectively need.

Which takes me to my next two points;

SE refuses to adjust the 3 man limit on ToAU content which would make getting stuff done that NO ONE wants to do anymore (assaults) or is hard to find people for (salvage, einherjar) I know this is an MMO but when content can be cleared by one person, make so can enter with ONLY 1 PERSON.
As you state, this is indeed an MMO, which is to say "massively multiplayer", the implication of which is that you will need a group of other players with which to accomplish many potential goals. Why you need a group of other players is incidental.

Limbus 2 would be good but again, good luck finding people to do it. Enif has some nice pieces, Murzim is mostly trash, and the lack of AF+2 leaves almost no incentive to do this event. It sounds like your problem is not the way the game is set up, but that you have difficulty finding a group of players to participate with you in such events.

Whats that? oh AF+2, yeah it might make people do this event but SE has flat out said NO to the notion of adding such a thing. Again SE, WE PAY YOU to play this game. Obviously adding ideas any Tom, Dick, or Harry throw at you would be bad, but if the majority of the games population want it, MAKE IT SO. You pay them to get access to the servers and to get a (or several) Content ID(s) / character slot(s). You receive what you pay for. Nowhere does it say that what you are paying for is the right to dictate or even have a say in the continued development of the game.

Long story short: put your money where your mouth is. Your vote is binary. Either you like what SE is doing with FFXI enough to support it with your money, or you don't, and you cancel your subscription until you do.

My vote is I support what SE is doing with FFXI to the tune of $14.99/month. No longer to the tune of $17.99/month. Certainly not to the minimum dual-boxing tune of $25.98/month.

What's your vote?

Arcon

02-11-2013, 04:34 PM

What evidence is there to support the idea that Abyssea was bad for the game?

You mentioned it, declining player numbers. I will reiterate again, that evidence is not proof. I feel that point slipped through my last post unnoticed, so I'll try to be more specific this time, and apologize in advance for the boring explanation. Evidence are facts that relate to the issue at hand, if they corroborate the hypothesis, then it's evidence for it, if they don't, then it's evidence against it. But either way, it's just an indication, and once it's been presented, it's up for interpretation. One interpretational argument against it would be the one you mentioned, that it's been the same way since the start (although mean people could ask you for evidence for that argument, but I'm not mean, so I won't). One interpretational argument for it would be that releasing expansions should always halt declining players at least for a while, whereas Abyssea did nothing to stop that. Evidence for that includes the fact that less than three months after the release of its third installment (less than one year after the first), the global numbers were down significantly and another server merge was announced. Now, again, that is up for interpretation. Would that have happened without Abyssea as well?

You get the idea, the evidence corroborating the hypothesis is there, whether it's correlated as well is up for debate. Yet, I can find no evidence for the contrary. Only personal reports of people, and those aren't facts. If the number of reports represented a significant majority, then it would be different (by that I mean of all the players), but only SE has the power to find that out, for example through another poll. Although at this point it would be hardly relevant, because it would be skewed towards people favoring Abyssea by default, as the people who were unpleased with it the most have quit already.

Jaall

02-11-2013, 06:33 PM

You mentioned it, declining player numbers. I will reiterate again, that evidence is not proof. I feel that point slipped through my last post unnoticed, so I'll try to be more specific this time, and apologize in advance for the boring explanation. Evidence are facts that relate to the issue at hand, if they corroborate the hypothesis, then it's evidence for it, if they don't, then it's evidence against it. But either way, it's just an indication, and once it's been presented, it's up for interpretation. One interpretational argument against it would be the one you mentioned, that it's been the same way since the start (although mean people could ask you for evidence for that argument, but I'm not mean, so I won't). One interpretational argument for it would be that releasing expansions should always halt declining players at least for a while, whereas Abyssea did nothing to stop that. Evidence for that includes the fact that less than three months after the release of its third installment (less than one year after the first), the global numbers were down significantly and another server merge was announced. Now, again, that is up for interpretation. Would that have happened without Abyssea as well?

You get the idea, the evidence corroborating the hypothesis is there, whether it's correlated as well is up for debate. Yet, I can find no evidence for the contrary. Only personal reports of people, and those aren't facts. If the number of reports represented a significant majority, then it would be different (by that I mean of all the players), but only SE has the power to find that out, for example through another poll. Although at this point it would be hardly relevant, because it would be skewed towards people favoring Abyssea by default, as the people who were unpleased with it the most have quit already.

Um... wtf are you on about? I'm not quite sure who you're arguing against but the facts are these.... People are quitting, nobody knows why because SE haven't done a survey nor ask for one when you decide to leave. Abyssea is an expansion that changed how the game works. Due to the existence of a little thing called assumption, people assume that because Abyssea changed the game a lot, that's the cause for people leaving when in reality it could be an entirely different reason and most likely is. Also this post was about devs not listening.... since when did that involve Abyssea and since when did it become yet another Abyssea blaming session?

Arcon

02-11-2013, 11:48 PM

Um... wtf are you on about? I'm not quite sure who you're arguing against [..]

Not you .

Jaall

02-11-2013, 11:55 PM

I know it wasn't me I just don't see the point of arguing that with anyone.

Yinnyth

02-12-2013, 05:44 AM

You mentioned it, declining player numbers.

What can and cannot be considered evidence is apparantly a hotly contested issue, and this seems to be one such case. I disagree that declining player numbers is evidence of Abyssea being bad for the game. Player numbers have been in decline for a long while now, regardless of hundreds of changes to the game. Unless you can somehow link the two together (such as providing numbers showing that the decline in population increased shortly after Abyssea), then this is not evidence, it's coincidence.

If a scientist wants to prove that McDonald's has led to a sizable population increase, he would be laughed at if his only piece of "evidence" was the total human population before and after McDonald's.

Jaall

02-12-2013, 07:25 AM

If a scientist wants to prove that McDonald's has led to a sizable population increase, he would be laughed at if his only piece of "evidence" was the total human population before and after McDonald's.

Genuinely made me lol! You're spot on though, there's not enough evidence other than the population before and after Abyssea so it's merely coincidence and definitely not consequence. Just a shame people still blame anything and everything if its an easy target. Why don't people just accept that the populations declining, it's been slowly decreasing for years and isn't going to die anytime soon so stop worrying and stop blaming everything you can. Abyssea might be related to a number of people quitting but my speculation shows that actually most of the reason is other commitments or other games like I mentioned before and actually the few people who quit due to Abyssea were mainly just pushed over the edge by it and would have quit anyway.

FrankReynolds

02-12-2013, 08:15 AM

If a scientist wants to prove that McDonald's has led to a sizable population increase, he would be laughed at if his only piece of "evidence" was the total human population before and after McDonald's.

Hah! I was going to make the same analogy.

On a side note, I was about to quit before abyssea came out, so I blame Abyssea for my continued antisocial behavior.

Alhanelem

02-12-2013, 10:01 AM

I have to agree with the notion that killing 10000 colibri to level up/merit really isn't any different from what goes on in abyssea- the only real difference I see is that with the colibri, if you weren't a BRD or one of a few other jobs, you basically didn't get EXP at all. At least in abyssea, everyone can level up.

Arcon

02-12-2013, 02:50 PM

Unless you can somehow link the two together (such as providing numbers showing that the decline in population increased shortly after Abyssea), then this is not evidence, it's coincidence.

If I could, I would have done so in the beginning. If I could, I also wouldn't have said that I couldn't. If I wanted to actually make that argument, I would have. The reason I haven't (and I'm not sure why you think that I did) is precisely because I lack that information. Also, evidence can be coincidence. That's decided after it is presented and does not stop it being evidence, it only makes that evidence irrelevant. That is decided after it was interpreted and discussed. But don't worry, I will not explain what evidence is again. If you didn't get it after three explanations, I doubt you'll get it after a fourth, even if it might stop you from making bad analogies.

I believe Abyssea was bad for the game, for a list of reasons, and not all of them were bad for me. I cannot prove any of them, which is why I didn't pretend to do so, although I have good arguments for all of them, but this is not the place to discuss it. If you wanna open a new Abyssea discussion thread, I'll be happy to present them.

If a scientist wants to prove that McDonald's has led to a sizable population increase, he would be laughed at if his only piece of "evidence" was the total human population before and after McDonald's.

By people like you, I'm sure. Other scientist would scoff at you for not listening to that guy's arguments, such as cities being merged shortly after a McDonald's restaurant opened in them, or the fact that fatty and unhealthy food becoming immensely popular should slow down the population growth, not accelerate it.

Jaall

02-12-2013, 04:33 PM

(and I'm not sure why you think that I did)

Because you were trying so hard to argue every point he made using pointless definitions and dead end points. There would be absolutely no hard evidence with the McDonald example and even scientists would laugh at that because it is merely coincidence. If one mad scientist wanted to go and further prove that theory I'm sure the others would allow that but they would still think it's stupid. You're trying to win an argument when there is literally no real way you can because the facts are facts and all you have left is to define silly things and say "if" a lot, also you seem to have an undying hatred for Abyssea. If I may I'd like to suggest moving on, Abyssea is implemented, you can't turn back time. Most you can do is accept it and tbh the majority do accept it and the majority like it. You're fighting a losing battle here in a thread that has nothing to do with Abyssea anyway.

Arcon

02-12-2013, 05:59 PM

Because you were trying so hard to argue every point he made using pointless definitions and dead end points.

What points did he make? Seriously, tell me, if you know.

There would be absolutely no hard evidence with the McDonald example [..]

Of course, because it's a failed analogy. And I already explained why.

You're trying to win an argument [..]

I'm not. I explicitely stated that I can't, because I don't have proof.

Most you can do is accept it and tbh the majority do accept it and the majority like it.

Assumption without any evidence. That was the only point I was trying to make.

You're fighting a losing battle here in a thread that has nothing to do with Abyssea anyway.

You can't lose when you're right, regardless who agrees or disagrees.

Zagen

02-12-2013, 06:14 PM

Of course, because it's a failed analogy. And I already explained why.
You mean the part where you added on to it thus changing the analogy?

You can't lose when you're right, regardless who agrees or disagrees.
Are you familiar with history? It's full of people who were right and still lost.

You're arguing Abyssea pushed people away without evidence (which you've admitted to) proving that was the sole reason. Everyone I know that "quit because of Abyssea" were people that had grown tired of the game and Abyssea was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the sole reason for them quitting. I can state factually at the time of it's release it was the sole reason for keeping 4 players (myself being one of them) from quitting.

Yinnyth

02-12-2013, 06:36 PM

If I could, I would have done so in the beginning. If I could, I also wouldn't have said that I couldn't. If I wanted to actually make that argument, I would have. The reason I haven't (and I'm not sure why you think that I did) is precisely because I lack that information. Also, evidence can be coincidence.

You dismiss all coincidence which supports Abyssea being good for the game as:

That's precisely what I meant. No evidence to support that statement, just dubious and unsupported quantifications like "many think" or "most prefer" and things like that.

In fact, according to you:

Which is, again, precisely what I said. We can't prove anything either way. But since the only evidence we have is pointing to the opposite
You elevate trends which were set in motion years before Abyssea was a twinkle in Altana's eyes as "evidence". But anything which runs contrary to your current belief does not deserve that moniker.

In case I have not been clear enough about this, the thing I resent is not your viewpoint, it's your delivery of that viewpoint. You are attempting to monopolize the term "evidence" as anything which supports your beliefs, when in truth, declining server population does NOTHING to diminish the burden of proving that Abyssea was bad for the game. If it does not advance the claim, it is not evidence, and declining server populations do nothing to advance your claim.

Arcon

02-12-2013, 06:39 PM

You mean the part where you added on to it thus changing the analogy?

The part his analogy missed, which is why it was a failed analogy. An analogy is supposed to accurately reflect the issue at hand, which his didn't.

Are you familiar with history? It's full of people who were right and still lost.

We have a different definition of losing. What do you think will happen to me if I lose? Will a mob come find me and silence me? How do you think I can lose in this?

You're arguing Abyssea pushed people away without evidence (which you've admitted to) proving that was the sole reason.

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there's evidence supporting that, and that there's no evidence supporting the contrary.

Yinnyth

02-12-2013, 06:43 PM

You're arguing Abyssea pushed people away without evidence (which you've admitted to) proving that was the sole reason.

Actually, the biggest thing I resent is that he's not willing to give up that term "evidence" when it comes to declining server populations. To date, he has maintained that this statistic is evidence, while refusing to give that status to any other information pertaining to this topic.

Arcon

02-12-2013, 06:45 PM

You dismiss all coincidence which supports Abyssea being good for the game as:

I dismiss statements that are unquantified and unqualified. We know that population declined. We do not know that "many think" and "most prefer". That is something that people who don't have any proper arguments or do not know how to use their arguments properly say.

Yinnyth

02-12-2013, 06:54 PM

I dismiss statements that are unquantified and unqualified.

What are your qualifications for deciding which statements are quantified and qualified?(ironic statement, not meant to be taken seriously) It is widely accepted that server populations have been in decline for years before Abyssea, during Abyssea, and after Abyssea. It is also widely accepted that Abyssea was wildly popular (did you ever run a /sea of Abyssea zones when they were freshly released? Crazy crowded.) Why is one widely accepted fact "evidence" and the other is "coincidence"?

Edit: Player decline is also:

1. Unquantified, because we don't have the exact numbers.
2. Unqualified, because it has not yet been successfully linked to Abyssea, and you yourself have admitted that it cannot be linked to Abyssea.

Yet you have not dismissed it the same way you have dismissed other statements.

Jaall

02-12-2013, 07:39 PM

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there's evidence supporting that, and that there's no evidence supporting the contrary.

I'd like to know what you think is evidence for people leaving due to Abyssea, please inform us with thy gracious wisdom. Also I'd like actual evidence please and not just speculation or opinion because that seems to be the point you're trying to make even if it is pointless to do so. My point is there is no evidence only speculation and opinion, of which mine are the opposite to yours and I've explained why, but you have yet to explain so here's your chance to prove yourself.

Arcon

02-12-2013, 08:05 PM

It is widely accepted that server populations have been in decline for years before Abyssea, during Abyssea, and after Abyssea.

Yes. That would be one argument against the evidence that it related to Abyssea. It could be countered if we knew exactly how much it went down and if the slope increased or decreased during that time. Sadly, we don't have that information.

It is also widely accepted that Abyssea was wildly popular (did you ever run a /sea of Abyssea zones when they were freshly released? Crazy crowded.)

I did, there were quite often over 100 people in a zone, and often we had problems even finding EXP spots that were not taken. And I will admit that I did not consider this (I don't think it has actually been brought up before, at least not when I'm around), and it could actually be used as evidence if you knew one other factor, see below.

Why is one widely accepted fact "evidence" and the other is "coincidence"?

The other isn't coincidence. But it is unrelated to how much people liked the expansion if we can't relate it to the actual playerbase. If there are 5 million people who love an expansion and play it daily, it means nothing if the 100 million who hate it don't participate. Since we can't put the number of participants in relation to the number of actual players, we cannot assign a quality to that statement. It would be different if you had actual average online numbers from that time and compared it to average player density in the Abyssea zones. If you had that number and used it to argue for Abyssea, you would have evidence. And then I would counter that evidence by saying that you don't have to like the content to do it. I hated it and I still participated, because it was what I had to do to progress in a game I liked, and I applied that progress to content outside of Abyssea, such as beating AV and duoing sea NMs and similar things. That is an argument for why your evidence is invalid. Just like your statement about the constant decline for years would be an argument for why my evidence with total player numbers is invalid. Whether or not those arguments apply is up for discussion. The evidence isn't, because it's factual.

Edit: Player decline is also:

1. Unquantified, because we don't have the exact numbers.
2. Unqualified, because it has not yet been successfully linked to Abyssea, and you yourself have admitted that it cannot be linked to Abyssea.

It is quantified to a certain degree. We don't have exact numbers, but we can glean numbers from indirect sources, such as the previously mentioned FFXIAH database or average /sea all online numbers.

It is qualified. Qualified means we can assign an objective quality to it, and the quality is "downward", because the population after was less than the population before.

Demon6324236

02-12-2013, 10:11 PM

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/123/db2/124/resized/spiderman-meme-generator-this-thread-is-getting-awfully-derailed-so-stop-d07a21.jpg

Yinnyth

02-13-2013, 11:29 AM

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/123/db2/124/resized/spiderman-meme-generator-this-thread-is-getting-awfully-derailed-so-stop-d07a21.jpg

Very well. OP, I disagree. The devs do listen, and they do what they can within reason. There are many reasons why the things you request don't get implemented however.

Just like your father doesn't let you get drunk when you're 12 no matter how badly you rant and no matter how many of your friends support you, some ideas are just bad ideas.

Just like your father doesn't get you a brand new porsche for your 16th birthday, some things are just beyond his price range.

Just like your father doesn't indulge the ludicrous demands you make while you're in an emotional state, some things you say you either don't mean or don't understand the ramifications.

So you can't always get what you want. That doesn't mean daddy doesn't listen, or that he doesn't care. But if you have some requests, your chances are best when you approach him in a respectful and cogent manner.

JouriStarz

02-13-2013, 09:13 PM

Another example of "the customer is always right" mentality being taken to the extreme.

Demon6324236

02-13-2013, 09:30 PM

Very well. OP, I disagree. The devs do listen, and they do what they can within reason. There are many reasons why the things you request don't get implemented however.

Just like your father doesn't let you get drunk when you're 12 no matter how badly you rant and no matter how many of your friends support you, some ideas are just bad ideas.

Just like your father doesn't get you a brand new porsche for your 16th birthday, some things are just beyond his price range.

Just like your father doesn't indulge the ludicrous demands you make while you're in an emotional state, some things you say you either don't mean or don't understand the ramifications.

So you can't always get what you want. That doesn't mean daddy doesn't listen, or that he doesn't care. But if you have some requests, your chances are best when you approach him in a respectful and cogent manner.I, as well as many other RDMs, have asked SE to give us abilities and spells we believe would be beneficial to the job, as well as suggesting simple changes to things we already have, and when we do we seem to be ignored. I do not understand how some things such as enhancing our original new SP ability would have cost them tons of money or time, rather it seems more time and money would be spent on completely changing the ability in every way.

SpankWustler

02-14-2013, 04:09 AM

Just like your father doesn't let you get drunk when you're 12 no matter how badly you rant and no matter how many of your friends support you, some ideas are just bad ideas.

Just like your father doesn't get you a brand new porsche for your 16th birthday, some things are just beyond his price range.

Just like your father doesn't indulge the ludicrous demands you make while you're in an emotional state, some things you say you either don't mean or don't understand the ramifications.

Just like your father once lost his anti-psychotics and spent two days and nights tearing apart the walls because that's where the mind-controlling spiders were hiding, somebody once developed the Evolith system and later expanded on it.

Yinnyth

02-14-2013, 05:29 AM

I personally think evoliths were a cute idea, it was just painfully underwhelming. The evoliths you used on a piece of equipment wasn't really a choice, it was determined by the piece of gear itself. The base gear that could take evoliths was pretty weak too. Plus the evolith boosts were pretty low. If they made it so endgame equipment could be etched and each slot had at least 8 choices for what you could put in it, and the boosts were decent, I'd love to see evoliths make a come back. Oh right, get rid of the element affinity for evoliths too... size and shape are plenty restrictive enough.

I, as well as many other RDMs, have asked SE to give us abilities and spells we believe would be beneficial to the job, as well as suggesting simple changes to things we already have, and when we do we seem to be ignored. I do not understand how some things such as enhancing our original new SP ability would have cost them tons of money or time, rather it seems more time and money would be spent on completely changing the ability in every way.

I feel for you. I spent a lot of time offering suggestions how to make PUP into not-the-worst-job-in-the-game. Then BST got awesome new pets. I questioned the logic of COR being forced to use ammo that is more expensive than RNGs, yet doing less damage than RNG. Then they announced RNG getting improvements to recycle. After the billing change was forced, the servmes still directed people to how to change their billing method, even though it would be impossible to see the servmes if you had not already changed your billing method. I created a thread here on the forums, and the servmes remained the same for over a month.

Anyone who's been on these forums long enough has started their own crusade for some change in the game and has nothing to show for it. So let's pretend for a second that the devs DON'T read these at all. What good does coming here and stomping your foot do? It will get you a sizable amount of "Like"s from your friends, but since the devs don't read the forums, it doesn't matter. Now let's pretend for a second that the devs DO read these. What good does an angry rant like the OP do? It has 62 likes but no clear message so the devs can't do squat about it. Even if it did have a clear message, how likely are you to indulge someone's requests when every other sentence they speak is an insult to you and your company?

Our best hope is if we learn how to "Like" posts that aren't emotionally charged, dev-hating, game-hating, company-hating, player-hating and/or pointless. If we could get productive and realistic posts with as much support as these posts have, THEN we'd have an above 0 chance of being listened to. Don't get me wrong, we'd still be shot down on many requests, just like over on the Japanese forums. But they know how to use the "Like" button on their forums a lot better than we do.

Or if you really feel there is nothing you can do, you could continue failing to see the irony in complaining to the devs that the devs don't listen. It seems to be working really well for us so far.

Demon6324236

02-14-2013, 07:11 AM

Or if you really feel there is nothing you can do, you could continue failing to see the irony in complaining to the devs that the devs don't listen. It seems to be working really well for us so far.Well see, thats part of the overall problem. If we tell when what needs done and they ignore us, we get nothing. If we yell and spew insults, we get nothing still. The natural thing to do when someone is ignoring you, or not hearing you, is to get louder, and in the case of them obviously ignoring you, you tend to get more aggressive. I do not mean you specifically, but your average human being will get more aggressive and louder if the person on the receiving end is not, well, receiving, or if they are but they are blatantly ignoring the speaker.

The idea of talking nice to them is shown in the example I used. So far as I know, no one on the NA or JP forums said the current plans for the new RDM SP is good. At the same time, so far as I know everyone on both sides basically said to just buff the buff potency increase and a possible duration increase as well. Rather than giving us either of these 2 upgrades which people presented in a nice way, we got a brand new ability which set the people who cared, into a hate filled rage. The SP thread actually held some promise in that way, we seemed to be getting listened to at that time, and they were making a good effort to balance the SPs in a way that was fair, and useful. RDM is seemingly the only one they did not do that with, and instead went the exact opposite way we asked them to. So we started calm, and kind, but due to their ignorant actions, we turn to insult spewing.

Before players will truly respond in a civil way we must be shown we are going to be treated with some respect to our opinion and ideas. Not everyone has got to the point they are completely filled with rage at SE, but it seems many have. I myself feel a large amount of anger at SE for what has become of RDM, and the many easily fixed issues they refuse to do, or simply ignore. The RDM SP was no small part in that either, as it was the first thread I know of where our opinions looked as though they actually mattered to SE, however in the end the RDM community was ignored, and our ability tainted in a way we never asked for. After we pointed out its flaws, they had the nerve to tell us we were wrong about its functions, when we have had years of finding out the games inner workings, and know what they are actually giving us.

I understand, and agree, that we can not expect them to act kindly to our insults, or to our rage filled posts. However, there is something to be said by a ton of rage filled posts. If it were only 1 or 2 people who were mad and filling posts with rage at SE, it may be possible to ignore it, blame it on a bad day or some bad experience they had recently with SE. But when you have a new thread popping up every day or 2 about how SE is failing to listen, and how bad the company is at customer service, it should say something. If someone was mad at me saying I'm not doing my job, I may ignore what they say for the most part, if 10 people are mad at me saying I'm not doing my job, even if I do not pay direct attention to their words, I will understand I am probably doing something wrong, and Ill look more into it.

The very fact we have all of these angry posts that pop up should speak volumes to SE, and point out that perhaps they should reevaluate how they accept feedback from the forums, and speak with forums for countries other than their own. Should they listen to every rage induced post? No, but they should see that many people agree, and feel angry about things, and at the same time see how many threads like it appear. If that many people are really mad at you, you are doing something wrong, and should look to correct it, not just keep on going at it and waiting for them to give up on you, and leave. That is how I think this will turn out eventually, we are all shouting at SE, telling them what we think, at first, we are calm, then we get a bit loud, then we start getting angry, even insulting, and after some time, we will give up, and either deal with it, or leave.

Alhanelem

02-14-2013, 07:38 AM

Demon6324236

02-14-2013, 09:06 AM

You missed the point, the point is that enough angry posts might make them realize there is actually a reason for them. If you try saying something to someone, they ignore you, and you walk away, nothing is done. If you yell at them, and they ignore you, then more and more people start yelling at them too for the same reasons, eventually they will take the hint that something they are doing is bothering people, and they should probably do something different.

Right now I feel as though they have times they listen, and times they ignore. They often ignore, but when they choose to listen its nice for as long as it lasts, but sometime in the middle of their listening they slowly start to ignore more and more till they just stop caring. Lets go back to the SP abilities, when was the last time they posted in that thread? 12/6/2012... Its been months, 2 months now, before that we were getting updates every week or less, but now we have no new word on anything related to the new SP abilities. These abilities were supposed to be released months ago, but still no sign, and they are not even done sorting out what they will be so far as we know.

That thread to me is a perfect example of SE doing things both right and wrong. It started out right, with swift updates, listening to player feedback, changing their own plans for the betterment of the game, and overall respecting our input while at the same time maintaining real balance. As time went on, it went the other way, going from us being listened to and our opinions being taken into account, into a thread which we get no updates, our opinions meant nothing, and we were told about how things can be used, even when we know the mechanics behind what they suggest and know it is terrible way before it gets to the test server, let alone the live servers. Chocoburger(awesome nickname for it...) was fixed at long last with an amazing ability, that was a great example of them listening to us, RDM so far is the opposite, terrible, we asked for better, we still have nothing new to show for it.

Giers

02-14-2013, 09:18 AM

If you're so convinced the devs will never listen to us about the game or listen to us complaining about them not listening to us, then do yourself and all of us a favor and just quit now.

I'm pretty much saying this because there's really nothing good that can come out of this.

How do I ignore this poster?

I would agree that fixes/changes come far to slow for a game that has more the made enough money to support a much faster change/fix system. We pay to play a game, well I wouldn't expect my money to get put 100% back into the game, I do expect it to show more then the 1% we get.

-=PoL shouldn't even exsist anymore, the update method is slow and prone to failure. Why can't steam update FFXI for me?
-=The job balance well has always been pretty terrible,but it is not getting better. Too many jobs are not worth your time playing. You can play what you enjoy, an all the power to you. Somewhere down the line though it would be nice to see job diversity/demand get a bit closer.
-=Interface lag should have been dealt with so long ago it hurts to think about it.
-=Ridculous grinds (Mythic Weapons, Skill ups) an gil = power (Relic Weapons) should have also been addressed.
-=Empy weapon system is still vulnerable to gil = power it still involves groups of players of 2-6 (Most of the time) to play together which this game doesn't really place high on the priority system any more.

Some changes have been great, leveling speed increase, warps galore, ability to play more then 2 jobs end game without a crazy high invest of time/gil, removing the level cap for certain quest/fights. Now its time for the rest of the game to catch up.

FrankReynolds

02-14-2013, 09:55 AM

The devs don't need crusaders to protect their widdle feelings from meany-weany posters. They have the delete button.

Honestly, does telling an angry person to calm down ever work? I think that you all know that you aren't doing anything but fanning the flames. Shame on you.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-14-2013, 10:05 AM

How do I ignore this poster?

Click his name.
Click "View Profile"
Select "Add to Ignore List" on the left.

Yinnyth

02-14-2013, 10:08 AM

Before players will truly respond in a civil way we must be shown we are going to be treated with some respect to our opinion and ideas.

Please point me to any response from them which was half as vitriolic as we are to one another. We disrespect each other, the devs, the mods, and the GMs much more than they disrespect us.

Just because 10 supported ideas don't get implemented doesn't mean that being polite isn't your best bet. We got cheese sammiches. We got pulse cells. We got Dynamis changes (even though I oppose the hell out of them). After years of being requested, we got neo Salvage. Many things aren't the way you want them to be, however. Most people tell themselves "A MONKEY could do it better!" Then hire yourself a team of monkeys and make your own extremely popular MMO.

In a game with tens of thousands of players, all of whom have different ideas of what's good and what's bad, you should not be offended and angry when your idea does not get accepted anymore than you get offended when you don't win the lottery.

That is how I think this will turn out eventually, we are all shouting at SE, telling them what we think, at first, we are calm, then we get a bit loud, then we start getting angry, even insulting, and after some time, we will give up, and either deal with it, or leave.There were people shouting at SE since before these forums. I was one of them. I've calmed down a bit since then. Nothing has changed in the way SE deals with things. The only thing that has changed is our expectations. Mine have lowered. Other people on these forums have raised their expectations.

The devs don't need crusaders to protect their widdle feelings from meany-weany posters. They have the delete button.

Honestly, does telling an angry person to calm down ever work? I think that you all know that you aren't doing anything but fanning the flames. Shame on you.The hate-mongering lynch mob doesn't need protection either.

Alpheus

02-14-2013, 11:03 AM

I came into this thread expecting show-tunes. I'm slightly disappointed.

Demon6324236

02-14-2013, 11:30 AM

Please point me to any response from them which was half as vitriolic as we are to one another. We disrespect each other, the devs, the mods, and the GMs much more than they disrespect us.I personally would rather someone insult me, than flat out ignore me. I feel thats what SE does on a constant basis, ignore us. You listed changes we got, but many are things we did not ask for. We asked for VW drop rates to be fixed or to allow us to share drops, they have us a half assed version of that by allowing only the rarest of items to be shared, and originally in such a terrible way it would have NEVER been used. Only after we complained long enough did they change it, and even now, its still not nearly what we asked for or really needed. VW drops are still horrid, some items are still almost unobtainable, like Ephemeron, and we never got a real fix for it. We were ignored on many other subjects as well. But one way they definitely disrespect us, is when they give us 'reasons' something we ask for can not be done when the reason itself lacks any basic reasoning to it. Like the RDM SP, its basically Elemental Seal-1, anyone who knows the function of the JA can tell you thats basically what it is, but on a much longer timer, yet SE argues its useful and nothing like Elemental Seal.

I think its massivly disrespectful that the players opinions are often ignored even now, when we are being asked specifically what we want. I also think its disrespectful that a large majority of posts made on these forums in any non-JP area are really JP responces just translated into a different languages thread. We almost never get a unique responce to a question over in the english forums, almost everything is just translated from the JP forums and sent to us via a rep, but our actual questions mean nothing, because we are not asking on the JP forums.

SE does not come right out and insult us, no, but they do not treat us as though our opinions truly matter, or at least, I have never had mine treated as if it did. The OP lists a few different things the player base has asked for, for a very long time, and yet we are either denied or we are simply ignored when the question arises.

FrankReynolds

02-14-2013, 01:33 PM

The hate-mongering lynch mob doesn't need protection either.

Nobody said they did. I was simply pointing out that anyone who doesn't work for SE really has no reason to be telling people what is and isn't proper etiquette for posting here. It's clear to me, the OP and probably everyone else that those people really have nothing to add and are just here to stir up the crap.

"I don't like your tone..." is a BS argument. No matter who you are. This may be a video game forum, but all the people using it (including the SE staff) are capable of ignoring people and things that bother them like adults.

If the OP had posted explicit photos, offensive memes, racial slurs, personal attacks or some other form of offensive material, this thread would have been shut down immediately. The fact of the matter is that a lot of what he said was spot on whether you like it or not and using his "tone" or "demeanor" as an argument against that is a cheap tactic that will never achieve anything other than causing people to post more of that.

There are only two kinds of people who shout "Stop acting like a baby!!!" at a screaming baby. Stupid people... and people who like making babies scream. Decent people either try to calm the baby or allow it the space to let of some steam.

Truth be told, the OP made a lot of very valid points. I agree that his tone was somewhat poor, but it's not like he's addressing someone who has done a lot to garner his respect. Making an awesome game doesn't mean that you are free of the the burden of being respectful to your customers. While many of the things we discuss on these boards simply cannot be done, that does not excuse the way that they have been handled.

It's fine to do whatever you want with your business, game etc., but if you ask people for their opinions and then allow them to post them in a public forum where everyone can see the results, then you owe them the respect of explaining your decisions at the very least. Asking people for their opinions just so that you can constantly ignore them and / or purposely do the opposite is a dick move no matter what culture you are from and you should expect no less than aggressiveness in response to that type of behavior.

Don't believe me? Try it in your personal life. Ask anybody that you are with what they want to do, where they want to go, or what they want to eat and then do what you know will piss them off the most without any explanation or even a response to their complaints and see how long it takes to end up lonely and bruised.

TLDR; SE is a corporation. Not a person. I don't care what the courts say. Their employees owe it to their shareholders and their customers to address the issues at hand, Not the attitude with which the issues are presented.

Yinnyth

02-14-2013, 02:19 PM

I had a huge wall of text response for both of you which I just deleted because I knew it wouldn't be read. We're going to have to do this one topic at a time, so I'll let you pick the topic if you like. What irritates you the most about the devs of FFXI, and why?

Edit: I'll start us off with something. The Grind. We grind for exp. We grind for loot. We grind countless failures for a single success on some events (neo nyzul). We grind quests. We grind gil. The whole game feels like a grind.

Because the whole game is a grind. If you gear down the grind of the game too much, players like me wind up with nothing to do.

-=Ridculous grinds (Mythic Weapons, Skill ups) an gil = power (Relic Weapons) should have also been addressed.
-=Empy weapon system is still vulnerable to gil = power it still involves groups of players of 2-6 (Most of the time) to play together which this game doesn't really place high on the priority system any more.I have never bought gil. I have never bought ancient currency. I have never bought empy items. I have never bought umbral marrow. I'm simply too poor IRL to even consider spending money on that kind of crap. Yet I have a level 99 gjallarhorn and 3 empies.

The whole game is a grind, and once you reach the top of the grind, there's nothing left to do. If you can already see that the game is a grind considering how low you are on the wheel, then you may as well give up now because you'll never enjoy it. I'm not saying this to be rude, this is simply the nature of RPGs. Once you start asking yourself "why am I grinding this?", it's beyond time to stop.

Darrt

02-14-2013, 09:03 PM

Somehow a common theme of emotions came about in reference to my OP as if i were sitting here foaming at the mouth while i typed it up. Lets look at this for a minute. You read my post, think it is emo and then are so bothered by it that you post a reply just to point out that i am being emo, in turn, being emo yourself. The point? Why bother posting?

This isn't a video blog like that terribad blonde chick that plagues the ffxiah "pics that make you lol" thread. I cannot convey emotions through text and those of you claiming I am just being emo are really only showing that you have nothing substantial to refute yet still feel the need to rush to SE's defense.

Again, i did not make this thread in the intent of posting issues i have with the game and then trying to formulate solutions that will be ignored or ignored. The point was to express my distaste for SE's lack of good customer service. As one poster pointed out, if you have 1 person yelling at you, so what ignore and move on. If you have a group of people yelling at you, something is wrong. Clearly is someone likes the OP that shows they feel that SE needs to improve their customer service, and currently 64 other people feel the same way. Yes that's a small margin compared to the playerbase as a whole, but seeing the small amount of people that use this forum, i'll take it.

As another poster pointed out, this game is old. I started this game as a senior in high school. Every second of my free time was used on FFXI. Once i graduated i enlisted in the USAF, got married and found i don't have the time needed for this grind (started in 2006, quit in 2008). Yes without the grind people will quickly lose interest and move on, however, SE does not advertise this game at all. If i did not subscribe to PSN magazine back in the day i would have never known this game existed. Because of this, they are not really bringing in any new players and thus, their playerbase is in similar situations to mine. We have real life commitments and cannot dedicate the same amount of time to this game that we could when we were kids. I quit this game in 2008 because of the grind, but still checked in on updates and whatnot over the years.

Don't get me wrong, i believe SE is somewhat in the right direction with content. Most events are roughly an hour which is perfectly fine. In fact when i saw SE was making the game more casual friendly i decided to return (2012) Unfortunately the sheer difficulty of things like neo-nyzul and legion means most players will never even attempt them because of the grind to make yourself effective in these events.

As another poster pointed out, i just need to find a group of people willing to do these events. This is a silly thing to post because it implies that i came here to complain that i can't solo it on my drg/rdm. This is not the case at all. I really enjoy the group aspect of this game and my fondest memories are clearing CoP with my LS friends when it was level capped (RIP EnlightenedSouls, Leviathan server).

The problem is that, as i already stated in another post, i am currently stationed in Korea and while i am online it is roughtly 2-3 AM back in the states. I've tried on multiple occasions to shout for a group for things, even on saturday and sunday when i can be on with the NA folk again. Unfortunately either no one is interested in anything besides VW or no one will help because nothing is really in it for them, or, and this one is my favorite, they have no interest in the storyline and have no missions completed to even be able to access the content (limbus / salvage). Honestly it seems like people just pay merc shells to get things done for them nowadays, which i do not have the gil to afford their outrageous prices.

I saw SE made a thread about what items people want changed. I think that's awesome and i hope it is really successful. Maybe it will inspire some other "what do you want" type threads. I know what i want. More quests like apocalypse nigh. i was so ecstatic when i finished CoP that i could finally get an ethereal earring. Now if only SE would add something like that for the rest of the mission lines. If they did i would hope they would make the reward something other than a ring / earring. I want a badass neck, waist or back piece.

But i know that there is a slim chance of that happening so i will just end with this: As another poster said, i need to put my money where my mouth (fingers) are, and indeed i shall. If you enjoy ffxi the way it is, that's great. I'm really happy for you and imma let you finish, but SE will not be receiving my 14 dollars a month for a while / ever. Depending on how SoA turns out i will probably return in 3 years when they finally finish it. Good luck to all of you who remain in Van'a'diel and whatever you are working towards.

tldr;
making a post calling me emo is redundant and hypocritical
SE is sort of on the right track with content and taking steps towards better customer service
SE needs to advertise this game
If you like this game the way it is that's great and imma let you finish
I am cancelling my content ID
See you in 3 years when SoA is finished

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-14-2013, 11:12 PM

I came into this thread expecting show-tunes. I'm slightly disappointed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTPwvGC0rY

Alhanelem

02-15-2013, 03:50 AM

How do I ignore this poster?

I would agree that fixes/changes come far to slow for a game that has more the made enough money to support a much faster change/fix system. We pay to play a game, well I wouldn't expect my money to get put 100% back into the game, I do expect it to show more then the 1% we get.

-=PoL shouldn't even exsist anymore, the update method is slow and prone to failure. Why can't steam update FFXI for me?
-=The job balance well has always been pretty terrible,but it is not getting better. Too many jobs are not worth your time playing. You can play what you enjoy, an all the power to you. Somewhere down the line though it would be nice to see job diversity/demand get a bit closer.
-=Interface lag should have been dealt with so long ago it hurts to think about it.
-=Ridculous grinds (Mythic Weapons, Skill ups) an gil = power (Relic Weapons) should have also been addressed.
-=Empy weapon system is still vulnerable to gil = power it still involves groups of players of 2-6 (Most of the time) to play together which this game doesn't really place high on the priority system any more.

Some changes have been great, leveling speed increase, warps galore, ability to play more then 2 jobs end game without a crazy high invest of time/gil, removing the level cap for certain quest/fights. Now its time for the rest of the game to catch up.
Believe me if you're going to react that nastily to a perfectly reasonable post, I don't want to read what you have to say either.

You seem to have missed the point- Being rude and nasty doesn't get results. i totallly agree that improvements are needed. Speaking with your wallet is a lot more effective than posting "Enough is Enough! I'm totally going to stamp my foot and not really do anything to help the situation but start complaining about it a little bit more!"

The community team doesn't respond to nasty provocative threads and posts. If they respond to anything, it's posts that are being thoughtful and constructive. If you're going to ignore list me for that, that's just silly- if someone is truly so dissatisfied with the game, then they should speak with their wallet and stop paying SE.

Before players will truly respond in a civil way we must be shown we are going to be treated with some respect to our opinion and ideas.I haven't seen any instances where the community team hasn't treated people with respect for their opinions and ideas.

StingRay104

02-15-2013, 05:09 AM

I think the general feeling of upset over this game stems from the fact that we still have very little interaction with the dev team. I would welcome an opportunity to discuss certain matters with the dev team. For instance I think that changing twilight scythe is a mistake, and would love to hear their opinion on why it should be changed.

As for the dev team never listens to us aspect, I do feel that way on several issues, but it isn't always the case. Remember DRKs new ability that would decrease tp in exchange for increased damage, kinda like a souleater that eats tp. Well the DRK community hated that idea, and it was changed to scarlet delirium, which the DRK community hated even more as it is almost completely useless. Even at it's highest effect, its effectiveness is very minimal. Yet the dev team still has yet to address the many things wrong with this ability.

Several jobs have been ignored for very long periods of time, for instance SMN. New abilities and avatars, as well as a complete redesign of the job have been asked for since late 2004, and although some things were down SMN is still miles behind. It's been 2 years since the promised new avatars, and still nothing but a fancy video of basic walking.

I think the aspect that aggravates me the most is that there is so much in game that needs to be fixed, such as ws's, and yet all I ever see when I open up the forums is mog house decoration contest, or valentines day event, or how about christmas and new years events, and the stolen cookie chronicles or whatever it is called. Are these things so important that they are the only things we get on a monthly basis? Our funds are paying for these instead of necessary changes that need to be implemented to the game. How about the fact that instead of having direct interaction with the player base, we get silly little contests instead. Personally I don't take part in these things, and it is obvious that I'm not very fond of them, however in the past I tolerated them because we at least got updates of substance. Now we don't even get that much, our updates are at around the same rate as before and about a quarter of the content. I know skeleton crew, priorities are important, I get this but it doesn't change the fact that the user base is unhappy.

I for one have always wondered what it is the GM's do, as every time we ask them to do something they say no. Then when we say things like we can't beat AV for 5 years and what do we get in return......TOO BAD. I want interaction with the devs, I want frequent flow of communication with them, and by frequent I mean 4 times a week not 4 times a year. I want them to understand my thoughts, and I want to understand theirs. If they would just step up to the plate we could make this game so much better together.

Finally I want to say this is probably the 1000th time this request has been made so lets hope this time they will take notice. WE WANT DIRECT COMMUNICATION ON A FREQUENT BASIS WITH THE DEV TEAM SO THAT TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE THIS GAME EVEN BETTER!!!

Yinnyth

02-15-2013, 05:19 AM

Somehow a common theme of emotions came about in reference to my OP as if i were sitting here foaming at the mouth while i typed it up.
My apologies if I am one of the people who made you feel this way. All the same, I disagree with many of your points. True, there are things about the game which I don't enjoy, but they're pretty much none of the things you have listed on the OP.

Again, i did not make this thread in the intent of posting issues i have with the game and then trying to formulate solutions that will be ignored or ignored. The point was to express my distaste for SE's lack of good customer service.
Customer service does not get final say on what is and is not implemented into the game. Most of your arguments on your OP relate to what does and does not get implemented in the game, which is not customer service's domain. Their domain is letting the devs know we're unhappy with it, then letting us know the devs decisions on the matters.

SE does not advertise this game at all.
SE has a hard enough time keeping their customers happy without sinking a pretty penny into advertising. At this point, I think advertising would be a waste of money unless they update the graphics engine first.

Don't get me wrong, i believe SE is somewhat in the right direction with content. Most events are roughly an hour which is perfectly fine.
This makes you a casual player, which is fine. I am glad that they have events in the game which can keep you satisfied with their duration and difficulty level.

Unfortunately the sheer difficulty of things like neo-nyzul and legion means most players will never even attempt them because of the grind to make yourself effective in these events.
I enjoy challenges like this being in the game. It gives me something to strive for. Neo Nyzul was an interesting one. It started with me and my friend shouting for 3 DDs (I dualboxed sch and cor). After a few really bad pick up members who couldn't follow instructions on when to hit their lamp, we decided to form a static. It took us a month worth of failures and eventually all of us getting on skype so we could communicate faster, but we finally started getting floor 100 wins. Once you start beating floor 100, it really doesn't take long to get all the gear you want.

What I'm really saying here is that ^that^ is what I love about FFXI. Being given a seemingly impossible situation, then finding a group of people I can slowly work it out with.

I know that might not be your cup of tea, but please don't have SE take that away from me. I'm not asking them to get rid of the events I don't enjoy because I know there's people like you out there who do enjoy them.

The problem is that, as i already stated in another post, i am currently stationed in Korea and while i am online it is roughtly 2-3 AM back in the states. I've tried on multiple occasions to shout for a group for things, even on saturday and sunday when i can be on with the NA folk again.
MMOs are always really rough in this sort of situation, FFXI being no exception. FFXI at least has the bonus that if you learn a different language, you might stand a chance, but that's not an option for many of us. When you get back to the states, you should consider giving it a try again. 14 bucks a month is still cheaper than most hobbies. Or maybe give FFXIV a try when it reboots. I think it'll be even more casual and fast-paced than FFXI.

I am cancelling my content ID
See you in 3 years when SoA is finished
Thank you for this post, it is a large improvement on the original. It is easier to understand what about the game frustrates you and why. I get the feeling SoA won't drag on as long as WotG did (I really do hope SE learned their lesson), so maybe you can return sooner than that.

Yinnyth

02-15-2013, 05:24 AM

StingRay104

02-15-2013, 05:42 AM

They feel it should be changed because it gives DRK a level of versatility which overshadows other jobs:

Which is why I would welcome a chance to debate this point because at this moment, no matter how much -pdt they put on a monster, a handful of dd's will do more damage than a group of mages. This is a problem with the game, the fantasy part of the genre involves powerful magic spells, and most of our spells are inefficient and lackluster.

Yinnyth

02-15-2013, 06:11 AM

Which is why I would welcome a chance to debate this point because at this moment, no matter how much -pdt they put on a monster, a handful of dd's will do more damage than a group of mages. This is a problem with the game, the fantasy part of the genre involves powerful magic spells, and most of our spells are inefficient and lackluster.

The devs appear to agree with you on this topic, and they would like to address it by adjusting how well support jobs are capable of buffing magic damage dealers:

When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs.

Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users.

SpankWustler

02-15-2013, 06:51 AM

The problem is that, as i already stated in another post, i am currently stationed in Korea and while i am online it is roughtly 2-3 AM back in the states.

This might have a much larger effect on how somebody would feel about FFXI than anything the Development Bros are doing. I know that when I'm not able to play much, due to juggling being a full-time student or employee with having a chronic illness, I opt to just go on a hiatus instead.

To me, though, that's just the nature of the beast that is FFXI. Its fur is Flamin' Hot Cheetos' dust two coats thick, its mighty teeth are slices of Lil' Caesars' Hot N' Ready pizza, and it's withered heart pumps liquid alone. Outside of the brief period when Abyssea was the most meaningful endgame activity due to Voidwatch being Voidwatch, fairly large chunks of FFXI have always become more difficult to get into at all as the player in question becomes more casual.

There are definitely things that bother me about FFXI, but they're mostly related to things that make no sense due to weird execution rather than the amount of time or number of players needed for this or that. When I think of somebody standing up at a meeting and suggesting something like Red Mage's new enfeebling SP that works for exactly one spell, the first thing that comes to mind is a naked madman whose idea is accepted just so he'll sit down and stop revealing himself.

Miiyo

03-28-2013, 01:01 AM

Enough is enough. I am only one person, but if all of the NA/EU community stopped playing FFXI for even a month i wonder how SE would react.
This is the truth. Time to start a petition for people to stop playing.

Oceanz

03-28-2013, 01:12 AM

If the OP was QQ or not (it wasn't) isn't relevant.

Assume the position of a third party observing this all. By "all" I intend to refer to not just this thread, but all the threads that have been posted providing extensive feedback to SE, from its most important stakeholders defined by the shareholders; the customers.

If I was a shareholder I'd be asking SE "WTF are you treating the people who increase the value of my shares so terribly?"

Miiyo

03-28-2013, 01:30 AM

You pay them to get access to the servers and to get a (or several) Content ID(s) / character slot(s). You receive what you pay for. Nowhere does it say that what you are paying for is the right to dictate or even have a say in the continued development of the game.

Long story short: put your money where your mouth is. Your vote is binary. Either you like what SE is doing with FFXI enough to support it with your money, or you don't, and you cancel your subscription until you do.

My vote is I support what SE is doing with FFXI to the tune of $14.99/month. No longer to the tune of $17.99/month. Certainly not to the minimum dual-boxing tune of $25.98/month.

What's your vote?

Lock this on the front page of the forum, please.

Nataskiller

03-28-2013, 02:34 AM

Heres a little hint for you buddy... find a LS thats actually doing that content on weekends / weekdays...? I was running a LS back in levi.. we started to get into abys content and making sure everyone got their gear and seals... /sh in jeuno is a wondrous thing!

Horadrim

03-28-2013, 06:10 AM

snip

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m44jhlua4W1qmzo43o1_400.gif

As player of one of the least appreciated jobs in the game, I get it, but meh...

Heres a little hint for you buddy... find a LS thats actually doing that content on weekends / weekdays...? I was running a LS back in levi.. we started to get into abys content and making sure everyone got their gear and seals... /sh in jeuno is a wondrous thing!

That's what I'm about to start doing! :D

There are plenty of veterans coming back on old accounts trying to learn Abyssea or who need help with events.

Abysia

03-28-2013, 11:09 AM

Does this guy think he speaks for the majority? He claims to.

zataz

03-28-2013, 11:18 AM

i said it before ill say it again the inmates should NEVER run the asylum.

Volkai

03-29-2013, 07:13 AM

{I} WANT DIRECT COMMUNICATION ON A FREQUENT BASIS WITH THE DEV TEAM

Learn Japanese. Communicate directly with the Dev Team in a language they speak (and read and write) fluently.

If you're dissatisfied with the Community Team's current efforts and unwilling to learn Japanese yourself, either act positively to enhance their capability or hire your own translator to facilitate your no-longer-direct-because-you're-going-through-a-translator communication on a frequent basis with the dev team.

katiekat

03-29-2013, 08:45 AM

You mentioned it, declining player numbers. I will reiterate again, that evidence is not proof. I feel that point slipped through my last post unnoticed, so I'll try to be more specific this time, and apologize in advance for the boring explanation. Evidence are facts that relate to the issue at hand, if they corroborate the hypothesis, then it's evidence for it, if they don't, then it's evidence against it. But either way, it's just an indication, and once it's been presented, it's up for interpretation. One interpretational argument against it would be the one you mentioned, that it's been the same way since the start (although mean people could ask you for evidence for that argument, but I'm not mean, so I won't). One interpretational argument for it would be that releasing expansions should always halt declining players at least for a while, whereas Abyssea did nothing to stop that. Evidence for that includes the fact that less than three months after the release of its third installment (less than one year after the first), the global numbers were down significantly and another server merge was announced. Now, again, that is up for interpretation. Would that have happened without Abyssea as well?

You get the idea, the evidence corroborating the hypothesis is there, whether it's correlated as well is up for debate. Yet, I can find no evidence for the contrary. Only personal reports of people, and those aren't facts. If the number of reports represented a significant majority, then it would be different (by that I mean of all the players), but only SE has the power to find that out, for example through another poll. Although at this point it would be hardly relevant, because it would be skewed towards people favoring Abyssea by default, as the people who were unpleased with it the most have quit already.

ok sins you want to be Mr fancy with your terms i am ging to ex plane how your logic is wrong

what you are doing is what is known as " "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" for thos that for thos know what that means "
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a Latin phrase for "after this, therefore, because of this." The term refers to a rhetorical fallacy that because two events occurred in succession, the former event caused the latter event.[1] (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Post_hoc,_ergo_propter_hoc#cite_note-0)[2] (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Post_hoc,_ergo_propter_hoc#cite_note-1)

In addressing a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument, it is important to recognise that correlation does not equal causation (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_equal_causation)."

in other words just because people left after Abyssea does not mean it was why and to say it it sajests it is to use false logic