Can we have a summary of the complaints that have led SE to declare war on DRK?

[Edyth]

I'm not going to summarize SE's assault on DRK, and I'm not going to summarize the general English community's views on DRK. What I want is a summary of the Japanese complaints leading to all of these strange proposals to weaken DRK on SE's part.

Dark Knight is not a job that needs to be weakened. It needs to be brought up to the levels of Samurai and Warrior. Why are people convinced it's gamebreakingly strong? If there's a secret out there, please, share it with us.

[Demon6324236]

Why are people convinced it's gamebreakingly strong?Because people are not smart enough to realize that a 5hit 100% STR weapon skill does not actually beat Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite, even if it sounds better.

Things like Twilight are situational and stupid to complain about especially since they are one of the few things that helps with making the job unique, right now one of the things that makes DRK stand out and be more useful than your other zerg DDs is that it has Twilight, giving it extra utility.

[svengalis]

Relic wielding DRK do some crazy damage but I can never consent to a nerf of any job.

[Tanama]

It may stem from this 177 page thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21420). The thread was created last February and is still strongly active. With Google Translate I can only understand about a third of what's being discussed. Akihiko Matsui even took the time to respond to that thread here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29822-%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B7%E3%82%B9%E3%83%86%E3%83%A0%E5%85%A8%E8%88%AC%E3%81%AE%E4%BB%8A%E5%BE%8C%E3%81%AE%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=392694#post392694).

The whole Twilight Scythe debacle I believe come from complaints of DRK being overused in Salvage II while not considering any other options. --Or something like that.


EDIT: The JP thread is titled: "Is Dark Knight too strong?"

[Muras]

I'd really like to know these details too, because I'm pretty annoyed DRK is somehow being seen as "extremely powerful" when it seems to be just your usual melee. DRK is still used as just another WAR, which is mostly just auto attack and WS spam.

And so, I speak to the devs with this...

Since the discussion is limited to only one part of the player base since they're the only ones who're complaining about it in the first place (JP), all we can do is speculate on what the real problem apparently is. Some think it's Resolution. Resolution is strong (But not the strongest), but DRK shouldn't be neglected and screwed out of new traits and abilities because of it (If it even is part of the cause of all this). Resolution isn't even a DRK only WS, so if DRK is "too powerful" because of it, that means DRK is considered "powerful" for something that's not even a unique part of the job itself.

If you take a step back and actually look at DRK for what it has that no other job has, you'd find that it doesn't have much of anything in the "unique" department. Last Resort is the only truly awesome thing DRK has, since Souleater just gets resisted eventually on anything you'd care about. DRK can't be powerful because of it's SJs, because every other job in the game has the exact same options to pick from. It's not because of it's nukes and Occult Acumen. It's not the absorbs either. Sure as heck isn't Scarlet Delirium. You can't possibly tell me the problem is DRK's slightly higher attack?

Honestly, what does the current DRK in game bring to the table that no other job brings? Seriously, because physical damage is as abundant as air, so if DRK was removed from the game entirely I don't think anyone would really miss it. They'd all go (That's too bad.) and move on to WAR because we wouldn't really be missing anything that would change the game. I rarely touch my DRK these days because I have no interest in playing a pseudo WAR. I'd just go level WAR itself if I wanted to do that.

But I wanna put the whole DRK issue aside for a sec and point out the real problem with this game, forum, and maybe even Square-Enix as a whole. Again, it's very clear this DRK issue is only a JP thing, and yet it's being treated so seriously. Now, I understand it's unrealistic to expect Japanese developers to come over to the english forums and know what's going on, so it falls to the community representatives to pass on our thoughts to them.

But here's the problem... There's no way for us to know what's actually getting sent to them. I know the community reps can't translate entire threads, so they have to decide what the overall "consensus" is on certain topics and pass that along instead. They don't receive our actual thoughts and emotions, and likely get few details. In contrast, the devs can go to the JP forums and see these things in their raw form. They cannot, and never will be able to do this for any other language forum.

In all likelihood, the devs might just ask the community reps questions like "What do the NA players think about X or Y?" and then they pass on the info. They may never get any information on topics until they care enough to know. This would certainly be easier for them, and bad for us.

The problem is a lack of communication and too many assumptions from their side. They probably think we feel the same as the JP players, and honestly we do in a lot of areas. But Japan and the rest of the world do have differing views on certain things, and often it's on some pretty important things like this DRK issue.

All I can really say is this current system isn't working. We only ever get replies to issues if someone from the JP side has also asked the same question or silly useless questions that have no real impact on the game, and our opinions seem to never count for anything. The only real solution I can think of is if we all start posting on the JP forums. Like, anything and everything. They might not understand us but at least the devs would actually physically see our posts and start to wonder "Why the heck is every language posting here in the Japanese forum?", thus catching their attention for even a short bit. In they end they'd probably just make it so that non-JP accounts can't post in the JP forums though.

At any rate, Square-Enix is supposed to be an international corporation. That means looking beyond Japan once in a while.

[Malthar]

Serves you guys right. Where were you when they were attacking bst? First bst, then drk, then ... This is how it happens. They come for your neighbors and you are glad that it was not you, so you do nothing. Then they come for you and you wonder why.

[Lokithor]

Rng says hello.

[Demon6324236]

Where were you when they were attacking bst?What was nerfed about BST?

[Zhronne]

In my opinion things are going differently.
SE is just mad at people completing events which were supposed to be more complicated in a very easy way, thanks to items that THEY gave us, and to abilities THEY balanced.

They want to change that, and are using the scapegoat of "omg users are complaining!" to motivate their actions.

[Tamoa]

I'm not going to summarize SE's assault on DRK, and I'm not going to summarize the general English community's views on DRK. What I want is a summary of the Japanese complaints leading to all of these strange proposals to weaken DRK on SE's part.

Dark Knight is not a job that needs to be weakened. It needs to be brought up to the levels of Samurai and Warrior. Why are people convinced it's gamebreakingly strong? If there's a secret out there, please, share it with us.


I wasn't even aware that SE has declared war on drk, am I missing something? Oh and the secret is called Ragnarok + Resolution by the way. A Ragnarok drk is already at least on the same level as sam and war.

[saevel]

Its just the JPs being angry as usual. DRK is only really useful on ONE Salvage II zone, and only because SE programmed the boss's AI to spam Pyric Bulwark. Otherwise DRK is the same as any WAR or SAM in the other zones, generic meat shield that can wear a DT/PDT set and put out high damage. Technically they should be angry at PLD for the same reason. A PLD can do the same thing all three of those jobs do but also has the option to fall back to Shield Master + Requiescat spam to by pass shields and -PDT.

I go DRK and BLU to Salvage II, which job I go highly depends on the zone.

[Dreamin]

What was nerfed about BST?

When they whack TH off our THF pets. And when they turn BST into Jugmaster. And they still haven't addressed jug pet zoning (every other pet job's pet can zone with them). Yes, they gave us some BS answer but it's not a legit answer imo.

And to the DRK's. RDM, SMN, PLD RNG all want to welcome you to the club.

[Cabalabob]

Nothing's actually getting nerfed on drk, at least not directly. The changes to attack and level correction screwing over both last resort and berserk is the only real damage that's being done to drk seeing as drk/war will now be a very dangerous combo. The haste change to last resort does nothing but give SAM a new sub job option and give level 15+ drks 15% haste while not lowering the overall haste from 5/5 desperate blows. And they haven't made any finalised decisions on what to do with the twilight scythe yet. They could still just decide to leave it as it is.

[Aeonk]

When they whack TH off our THF pets. And when they turn BST into Jugmaster. And they still haven't addressed jug pet zoning (every other pet job's pet can zone with them). Yes, they gave us some BS answer but it's not a legit answer imo.

And to the DRK's. RDM, SMN, PLD RNG all want to welcome you to the club.

This. I'd personally love to know why Atonement is still nerfed. 750ish dmg would be pretty trivial compared to the #'s we see nowadays, but it'd at least be competitive with a magian 2-4 sword. Now the answer is literally Empy/Relic/Mythic onry for PLD's.

[Demon6324236]

When they whack TH off our THF pets. And when they turn BST into Jugmaster. And they still haven't addressed jug pet zoning (every other pet job's pet can zone with them). Yes, they gave us some BS answer but it's not a legit answer imo.

And to the DRK's. RDM, SMN, PLD RNG all want to welcome you to the club.Nerfing BST's TH was not a real nerf, you get a few less items, oh no, that does not effect the party being able to participate in a job. Also, THF's best unique thing is TH, its often the entire reason the job is brought, in my opinion no other job should have more than TH1 so that THF is not entirely stepped over. Not allowing things to be charmed in Abyssea I think was something to do with lore, and pets not zoning with the master is not a nerf, its just them not willing to make simple adjustments which should be made, that is rarely useful for combat, and mostly is a complaint to save BSTs money.

The only real nerf here is TH, as it was at a time higher, and then they lowered it. The rest are things already implemented which are not being buffed/improved. None of these really effect a BST's combat ability, it effects their wallet. DRK's may be losing something unique to the job, Twilight Scythe and its non-elemental damage. So as you can see, these two types of nerfs are vastly different in overall effect, as one hurts a jobs combat abilities and the other hurts item drops without a THF and saves a BST some money via Charm or keeping pets while zoning.

[Malthar]

You don't get it, do you? The fact that very few stood up against the bst nerf made it easier to nerf other jobs just as easily. i.e. drk.

First they come for your neighbors...
I see they've taken your neighbors but haven't come for you yet.

[Slaxx]

Are you seriously comparing ANYTHING in an MMO to the rise of Nazi Germany? Get some perspective.

Jobs have always had high and low points, nerfs and buffs. Get over it.

[ManaKing]

Honestly they aren't really doing anything to DRK. What the OP is looking for is on the JP forums and it has very little to do with anything.

[Muras]

Honestly they aren't really doing anything to DRK. What the OP is looking for is on the JP forums and it has very little to do with anything.

It's true they're not nerfing anything (Yet), since the changes to Last Resort and Desperate Blows will still yield the same result in the end. I think the problem everyone is having is that all the stuff SE said they were going to do isn't going to happen anymore because people on the JP forums think DRK is already "too strong".

For example, they were giving DRK a Dark Magic version of Elemental Celerity and getting rid of the Absorb decay (Which were going to be implemented as shown in the roadmap (http://dl.square-enix.co.jp/ffxi/US/2012roadmap.jpg)). They were really going to add this stuff until, presumably, that discussion started in the JP forums.

It also brings up worries like DRK will never get any new adjustments that help better define the job, like new absorbs that do more unique things and help enfeeble the mob in a more valuable way (Like Absorb-ATK, Absorb-DEF, Absorb-SPD).

In regards to BST, I assume people weren't up in arms over the nerf at the time because SE said they would add TH+ items for pets. Now I know SE has since said they never promised such a thing, but the wording they chose at the time says otherwise. I still think there's a small chance they're planning on holding that gear for Adoulin content but who knows at this point...

[Tanama]

I think the problem everyone is having is that all the stuff SE said they were going to do isn't going to happen anymore because people on the JP forums think DRK is already "too strong".

For example, they were giving DRK a Dark Magic version of Elemental Celerity and getting rid of the Absorb decay (Which were going to be implemented as shown in the roadmap (http://dl.square-enix.co.jp/ffxi/US/2012roadmap.jpg)). They were really going to add this stuff until, presumably, that discussion started in the JP forums.
The additions for DRK that are on the roadmap as well as other things on there were postponed because Seekers of Adoulin came into the picture. Not because the JP made a thread discussing DRK's strength.

Producer Akihiko Matsui responded to that thread saying:
There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:

To make job adjustments by comparing aspects collectively to close the gap between dark knight
To not make adjustments by comparing only fire-power to leave dark knight behind

[Malthar]

Are you seriously comparing ANYTHING in an MMO to the rise of Nazi Germany? Get some perspective.


For the uninitiated, Slaxx is referring to this poem by pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) who wrote about the persecution of people group after group because the anterior persecuted group did and say nothing about the posterior because it wasn't them (Care of Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...)):

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

"Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

"Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

"Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Note, not a single line in that poem speaks of the rise of Nazi Germany. This poem can apply to so many things. In this instance, it applies to the progressive giming of jobs by SE.

The analogy I was trying to make is that SE will start on jobs people consider insignificant, like bst. People will not complain because they are not bst. Then they'll nerf smn. People will not compain because they are not smn. Now they're gimping drk. And there's no-one left to complain for you.

We either stand and fight together or get gimped alone.

[Demon6324236]

You don't get it, do you? The fact that very few stood up against the bst nerf made it easier to nerf other jobs just as easily. i.e. drk.No, it seems you don't get it, BST had a few changes, and none of them destroyed the jobs utility, if anyone ever took a BST somewhere for TH rather than a THF they were a fool. If you wanted TH, you took a THF, if you want TH now, you still take a THF. DRK is facing something very different, right now when you want non-elemental damage you take a DRK, if changes are made to Twilight Scythe to remove that feature, you also are removing DRK from this position. So far as I know the only other 3 forms of non-elemental damage that exist are Req, Murasamemaru and Meteor. Meteor requires to many of a single job, one of which right now has little use outside of procing, so that is not a viable option. Req suffers from being a one-handed weapon skill, thus leaving it weak and only does non-elemental damage during the WS. Murasamemaru only works on WSs, and is nearly impossible to obtain let alone the fact it only works on WSs so TPing attacks are not effected, mobs like Slimes, Flans, or Hydras(when using PB) making your damage on everything else weak.

The difference between these two things should be fairly obvious, BST losing a few levels of TH was an inconvenience for BSTs, Twilight Scythe losing its non-elemental damage would be a loss to its utility, and a unique feature to its melee damage. WAR, DRK, DRG, and SAM, all have slight differences in a zerg, which is what the game is as of right now, and the biggest difference DRK has, is non-elemental damage. SAM has WS spam and high TP gain, WAR has a crit WS, and DRG has self survival as well as a pet.

Another thing about this change, is not so much about DRK, but rather the Twilight gear itself. Each piece is special in a way. The knife was the first piece of gear with Quad attack, it also has a 100% drain rate of 5HP/MP/TP, which is fairly unique for a weapon. Twilight Cloak has an unique spell all to itself that can not be cast without it. Twilight Helm and Mail have Auto-Reraise. Twilight Cape increases the bonus from weather and day. Twilight Belt was the only item without something really unique tied to it. Scythe's special power is the non-elemental damage, you can argue its the Death procs, but those are few and far between, and can not effect a NM anyways, where as the others have their effects active no matter what. I think it somewhat ruins the item itself to have that damage taken away, especially seeing as the rest of the Twilight gear still has a use, while that one would become worthless overnight.


First they come for your neighbors...
I see they've taken your neighbors but haven't come for you yet.You see, I main RDM, I have felt the sting of being great, and then being turned to trash. This little saying means nothing to me here, because the BST nerf on TH had nothing to do with this, and is entirely different. Now if they nerfed BSTs damage, then MNKs damage, then WARs damage, and now were coming for DRKs damage, that would be another story, I could understand that comparison, but this is two things that have nothing to do with one another.

[Malthar]

No, it seems you don't get it, BST had a few changes, and none of them destroyed the jobs utility, if anyone ever took a BST somewhere for TH rather than a THF they were a fool.

No, it seems you don't get it at all. It doesn't matter the magnitude of the nerf. It matters that the nerf was done, period, and very few complained. When bst was nerfed did you complain? No! You probably said, "Good! They deserved it!" And now your job is getting nerfed. Who will now say, "Good! They deserved it!"

Either we stand and fight together or get nerfed alone.

[Tanama]

Dark Knight is not being nerfed. Some of you need to read the development notes more closely. One part of the Twilight scythe argument comes from a few JP who are unhappy that there aren't more Non-Elemental options available for other jobs. That does not indicate that DRK is going to be nerfed.

[Slaxx]

For the uninitiated, Slaxx is referring to this poem by pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) who wrote about the persecution of people group after group because the anterior persecuted group did and say nothing about the posterior because it wasn't them (Care of Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...)):

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

"Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

"Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

"Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Note, not a single line in that poem speaks of the rise of Nazi Germany. This poem can apply to so many things. In this instance, it applies to the progressive giming of jobs by SE.

The analogy I was trying to make is that SE will start on jobs people consider insignificant, like bst. People will not complain because they are not bst. Then they'll nerf smn. People will not compain because they are not smn. Now they're gimping drk. And there's no-one left to complain for you.

We either stand and fight together or get gimped alone.

The opening paragraph of your link states that it is about the rise to power of the Nazi party. You are over-reacting to such a level I can barely fathom it. Again, get some perspective.

[Malthar]

The opening paragraph of your link states that it is about the rise to power of the Nazi party. You are over-reacting to such a level I can barely fathom it. Again, get some perspective.

Whoosh! What was that?!
That was the idea going over your head.

This is what you should take away from my post:

We either stand together and fight and get nerfed alone.

[Demon6324236]

When bst was nerfed did you complain? No! You probably said, "Good! They deserved it!" And now your job is getting nerfed. Who will now say, "Good! They deserved it!"Except, DRK isn't my job, I play both BST and DRK about the same amount, I think the BST nerf was well deserved due to what was nerfed about it, I think DRK is not deserved, due to what is being potentially targeted.

The nerf itself matters much more than you seem to think. I play SCH a ton, probably my second most played job, next to my RDM, recently it has actually been my most played job. At the same time, I actually look forward to the Embrava 'nerf' even though it targets that job I play. Why? Because I made a non-bias choice on the matter to see how I think it will effect the game and other jobs as a whole not only itself. My choice here is no different, I feel that if Twilight was to lose its non-elemental damage effects, it would hurt the game as a whole.

[Tanama]

@Malthar: You are either trolling or you are really convinced that DRK is getting nerfed. What is giving you that notion?

[Slaxx]

I get your point. I think the overblown hyperbole is all out of proportion to the perceived problem. What I took away from your post is that you have no perspective. A simple "slippery slope" argument would have been far more appropriate. Trying to turn fairly routine job nerfs/buffs into some kind of "United we stand" cause is making you look foolish.

[Demon6324236]

We either stand together and fight and get nerfed alone.Rather we should base our opinions on nerfs off of our ideals of what is best for the game, not any single job. We should work together, yes, but not to halt all forms of nerfs, rather to improve the game, if some are needed, then let them come to pass. As I said, I believe Embrava should be nerfed even though it is effectively nerfing SCH which is one of my most played jobs.

[Malthar]

@Malthar: You are either trolling or you are really convinced that DRK is getting nerfed. What is giving you that notion?

Time will tell, my dear. Time will tell.

[Demon6324236]

@Malthar: You are either trolling or you are really convinced that DRK is getting nerfed. What is giving you that notion?In my opinion if SE gives more jobs non-elemental damage weapons which deal said form of damage with normal attacks, or they remove that effect from the Twilight Scythe itself, either would be a nerf. The first is a nerf because just like with RDM, the more you spread around a special feature, the less special it becomes, until its something everyone can use, and you are no longer required for it. The second is a nerf because it removes that form of power from the front lines completely, again removing the uniquity DRK has with it.

[Tanama]

I guess it comes down to the state in which Dark Knight is today where DRK is the pick of the DD litter because of DRK's Resolution and Twilight Scythe. It has brought an imbalance of DD job choice and that is what Producer Matsui is looking to remedy.

Now, Matsui himself said that they are considering adjustments to close the gap between DRK and other DD and not doing so by directly nerfing DRK itself. When Twilight Scythe does get adjusted, it will open up more job choices for that salvage zone people are only bringing DRK to. I don't think the development team intended for DRK to be the only DD/Tank choice for that salvage zone which is why they are taking that JP discussion on DRK seriously.

[Demon6324236]

The thread that this supposedly started from is much older than Neo-Salvage, it should not be the basis for the change. DRK is also not nearly the only choice, its very easily possible to do that zone with other jobs, have DDs with high crit rate and you can chop off its heads before it even uses Physical Shield. People simply overreact to the possibility of doing it. Also currently so far as I know a WAR still out does a DRK, and MNK out does a DRK on anything that being a 1-handed job does not completely screw it out of, like Legion. So saying that DRK has "brought an imbalance of DD job choice" is fairly incorrect to me.

[Tanama]

It has somewhat. Look at the number of Ragnaroks that have been made since Resolution was introduced. I'm not knocking off Ukon WAR either as that is very powerful as well. In fact, I'm sure you're aware Ragnarok DRKs and Ukon WARs are the most requested melee these days due to the immense power of the job weapon combo. Add Kogarasumune SAM and Ryunohige DRG to that list.

Alliance leaders simply need the best of the best to zergfest win on high level content. All other job+weapon combos are not at the level of those mentioned. The JP thread is in discussion of DD content pretty much and for a lot of them the problem lies with other dd jobs not being on the same level as DRK and it's popularity over lesser damaging DDs.

[Ophannus]

DRK does relatively high damage with Ragnarok and Resolution, having a 25% JA haste ability makes DRK such an efficient DD that most other DDs have trouble comparing during a zerg. For example, in a non zerg situation where people aren't at capped haste, most DDs are about equal; DRG, DRK, WAR, PUP, RNG, THF etc. It's only once you start fighting mobs that are 115+ and adding in crazy buffs that the disparity between jobs increases. In lowman situations, I've definitely seen Almace BLUs and PUPs fight on par with Ragnadarks on random mobs like Meebles bosses.

[Urteil]

The thing is. You don't HAVE to lowman the zones so you HAVE to bring a DRK. DRK may make three-manning etc. possible but I don't remember 3 being the max allowed to enter Salvage.

Optionally if the problem is the Hydra is in BR any job with high subtle blow is probably a good option for preventing TP gain and doing good damage while mitigating everything through evasion.

i.e. - Monk, Ninja, Thief


People just WANT to take DRK and WAR to everything when there are viable options that people hardly even explore.

But idgaf about Twilight Scythe delete it from the game, +Dark Magic please.

[Sephiran]

I'd like to offer some perspective on this thread and the situation that DRK finds itself in. Throughout my time on the forums, I have been seen as naive and as troll for defending Voidwatch...and as simply a bad player in general. Now, the last accusation I certainly cannot deny, so I won't. All this being said, I would like to comment on the situation dark knights find themselves in.

I remember hearing back and the 90-cap that DRK had completely made PLD obsolete due to its ability to hold enmity through sheer damage. This upset me greatly, as due to my limited game time, I play PLD exclusively. Now, I see that DRK is now going to face a similar decline to WAR and MNK. Given that little bit of my history, I'm sure everyone is expecting me to say something vengeful like "serves you right". However, that's not what I came here to do.

I love this game. I love the community and and I love the gameplay. I know I seriously suck at this game, but I enjoy it nonetheless. Now, I don't want to see DRK suffer the same demise PLD has. I don't want to see another job become obsolete. I know what it feels like to be useless and I understand why DRK's are quite rattled over this issue. To promote to a more harmonious and balanced Vana'diel, I do not believe DRK must be negatively adjusted.

This game has balance issues, and that's quite obvious. However, crippling jobs does not promote balance. In fact, it's only promoting more discrimination among players and which jobs they choose to complete various events.

A balanced Vana'diel is one where all jobs are valuable and worthwhile for the purpose of completing events. DRK is just viable enough to compete with WAR and MNK as it is. Square-Enix, if you nerf DRK, you are a going to create another job that is obsolete, and childishly naive as it may sound, I do not wish to see another job face the fate that other "useless" jobs face.

[saevel]

I guess it comes down to the state in which Dark Knight is today where DRK is the pick of the DD litter because of DRK's Resolution and Twilight Scythe. It has brought an imbalance of DD job choice and that is what Producer Matsui is looking to remedy.

Now, Matsui himself said that they are considering adjustments to close the gap between DRK and other DD and not doing so by directly nerfing DRK itself. When Twilight Scythe does get adjusted, it will open up more job choices for that salvage zone people are only bringing DRK to. I don't think the development team intended for DRK to be the only DD/Tank choice for that salvage zone which is why they are taking that JP discussion on DRK seriously.

DRK's aren't the pick of the DD, WAR's are. DRK and WAR become functionally interchangeable with he exception being that DRK can get slightly higher attack while WAR has a 50s 100% crit JA on a 60m timer and access to more CAB / DA / STP. With sufficient BRD and COR buffs the attack benefit of a DRK is reduce to nothing as they all have capped ratio.

Also as I've said before, twilight scythe is only critical on one NM and only because SE programmed it's AI to spam Pyric Bulwark. Should SE go in and change that programing so that it's use chance is significantly lower, there is no longer a need to bring a DRK. "Adjusting" twilight scythe won't change anything unless they completely remove it's damage ignore effects. Even if it's weaker you still need it because some damage is better then hitting for 0's on a NM that can triple attack for 400 damage each hit.

[Tanama]

A new post by Akihiko Matsui regarding the Twilight Scythe has been posted (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29822-%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B7%E3%82%B9%E3%83%86%E3%83%A0%E5%85%A8%E8%88%AC%E3%81%AE%E4%BB%8A%E5%BE%8C%E3%81%AE%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=398229&viewfull=1#post398229).



Google Translated (I know it's terrible)

Every time you attack if you are equipped with the Twilight size,
let (overlap with the effect of the dark) HP slip, you are to have a risk
Granted as performance enchantment to reduce the frequency
Below a specific value, the remaining amount of HP triggering certain probability
factor is triggered to rise in response to the remaining amount of HP Furthermore, to have a risk

[Godofgods]

Can we have a summary of the complaints that have led SE to declare war on DRK?


The downside of open dialog with its players - Ppl will complain about everything. Ppl will even complain about ppl complaining. Its a vicious cycle.

[Calamity]

It's just a matter of people want what they can't have, and when that happens, they don't want others to have it either

[Malthar]

Just this. And so you know, I for one was there in the defense of bst as well, as were a few other names I'm seeing in this topic. I'm done talking to you now.

Fine by me You're just a troll anyway.

[Malthar]

Oh wow! I just found a bug in the forum. It responded to the wrong message. Not sure how that happened...

[Mookies75]

Ask the JP's. The only things that get changed are the ones they complain about. They have a lot more interaction with the devs/community representatives.

[Tanama]

Ask the JP's. The only things that get changed are the ones they complain about. They have a lot more interaction with the devs/community representatives.
This is a true here and not so true in the FFXIV forum. The community reps even mingle with the NA posts in the FFXIV forums which is awesome though we do not ever see that here. And Yoshi-P also directly respond to NA post once in a blue. Take a look for yourself, you may be surprised.

In here, when the dev team does respond to translated NA posts, normally it's either a rejected idea or something they are looking into which you won't hear about again in another two years.

[Babekeke]

@OP: does SE need a reason to declare war on DRK?

It's not SAM. That's enough for them.

[Sarick]

@OP: does SE need a reason to declare war on DRK?

It's not SAM. That's enough for them.

SAM is somewhat a Japanese culture icon right?
MNK is also Japanese culture related, It's also represented in other cultures when looking at warrior monks.
NIN is also Japanese culture related.

WAR is universal to all cultures.

Knights in general Paladin, Dark Knight are English related. You don't hear of Japanese knights because they called them samurai. They followed an honor code. Dark Knights are the off shot of cult knights, and actually a pun when they created them the first time in the FF series. It was a representation of how western English knights where first perceived by the Japanese culture when they first came in contact with them.

Dragoon is a combination of Japanese, Chinese and English culture they where like warriors but carried pikes, spears and poles for medium range combat. Keep in mind dragons are mythic beast which where represented in English, Chinese and Japanese cultures. In all of them dragon slayers or "Dragon Warriors" where warriors designed fight, hunt and/or control dragons.

Now, If you read deeply into this you can probably see what jobs have the most attention and why. You can disagree with everything I wrote but, in the long term the SAM is going to remain one of the strongest DD jobs in the FF series. Culture wise it must be respected in the Japanese culture historically as a superior warrior type otherwise, it brings down the pride represented by it and the diverse history behind it.

To make it simple the Japanese culture has a lot of pride in it's history and most likely want to show that respect by not representing SAM as gimp in comparison to other warrior types.

[SpankWustler]

[Stuff.]

Now, If you read deeply into this you can probably see what jobs have the most attention and why. You can disagree with everything I wrote but, in the long term the SAM is going to remain one of the strongest DD jobs in the FF series.

[Stuff?!]

Alternatively, consistently high-performing jobs like Samurai and Warrior are just harder for the Development Bros to screw up because all they do is hit stuff with stuff. They have no spells that can be given nonsensically long casting times and no pets that can be severely overestimated.

[Sarick]

Alternatively, consistently high-performing jobs like Samurai and Warrior are just harder for the Development Bros to screw up because all they do is hit stuff with stuff. They have no spells that can be given nonsensically long casting times and no pets that can be severely overestimated.

That too but it didn't stop the nerf on that great axe did it?

[Demon6324236]

The nerfed Great Axe is still one of the best weapons in the game even after its nerf, so really, I cant say it was all to effective of a nerf anyways.

[Edyth]

SAM is somewhat a Japanese culture icon right?
MNK is also Japanese culture related, It's also represented in other cultures when looking at warrior monks.
NIN is also Japanese culture related.

WAR is universal to all cultures.

Knights in general Paladin, Dark Knight are English related. You don't hear of Japanese knights because they called them samurai. They followed an honor code. Dark Knights are the off shot of cult knights, and actually a pun when they created them the first time in the FF series. It was a representation of how western English knights where first perceived by the Japanese culture when they first came in contact with them.

Dragoon is a combination of Japanese, Chinese and English culture they where like warriors but carried pikes, spears and poles for medium range combat. Keep in mind dragons are mythic beast which where represented in English, Chinese and Japanese cultures. In all of them dragon slayers or "Dragon Warriors" where warriors designed fight, hunt and/or control dragons.

Now, If you read deeply into this you can probably see what jobs have the most attention and why. You can disagree with everything I wrote but, in the long term the SAM is going to remain one of the strongest DD jobs in the FF series. Culture wise it must be respected in the Japanese culture historically as a superior warrior type otherwise, it brings down the pride represented by it and the diverse history behind it.

To make it simple the Japanese culture has a lot of pride in it's history and most likely want to show that respect by not representing SAM as gimp in comparison to other warrior types.

I agree with what you said, but Samurai is only a powerful DD in FFXI. In its other appearances, it doesn't stand out. Hell, Samurai's MAIN gimmick in FFV is to throw loads of gil to deal paltry damage. If you're going to argue that the gil is powerful, just summon Bahamut or nuke with a black mage instead. Gil Toss is foolish. In FF Tactics, Samurai breaks its own katana doing its abilities, the best of which is a healing ability, not a DD ability. In FFX-2, Samurai is outclassed by many other physical jobs, such as Berserker, Warrior, Dark Knight, and Mascot.

[Sarick]

I agree with what you said, but Samurai is only a powerful DD in FFXI. In its other appearances, it doesn't stand out. Hell, Samurai's MAIN gimmick in FFV is to throw loads of gil to deal paltry damage. If you're going to argue that the gil is powerful, just summon Bahamut or nuke with a black mage instead. Gil Toss is foolish. In FF Tactics, Samurai breaks its own katana doing its abilities, the best of which is a healing ability, not a DD ability. In FFX-2, Samurai is outclassed by many other physical jobs, such as Berserker, Warrior, Dark Knight, and Mascot.

Maybe in FFXI it's their Mascot!

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070523143004/ffxi/images/6/65/Ffxi_box_art.jpg

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070523143004/ffxi/images/6/65/Ffxi_box_art.jpg

It looks like the central fighter is using a Great Katana. They are also standing out in front of all the other jobs.

J/K thanks for the extra info. The team who writes FFXI aren't the same in the other FF games. They have a different aspect of what the jobs should be and in some cases these stray from the lore behind them. Keep in mind FFXI is an MMO and multi-culture where as FFV is single player. In the MMO there is a direct competition between piers of differing classes. The Japanese culture is playing a role in how jobs relate to each other.

It's funny though that English based jobs in FFXI are treated differently. For Instance PLD is tough but falls short and they don't seem to know how it works fully. Dark Knight is supposed to be destructive with both melee and magic. The lack of hard core doom and death spells would make it overpowered in a lot of cases but viable for it's lore. You can bet if they added those to DRK they'd fail or resist for a very high percentage of the game mobs rated above easy prey.