Mandau Vs Twashtar

[Ncr]

I tried looking for a forum that was already open but i could not find one.

I have been talking to my friends about which is better Mandau or Twashtar. There where pro and cons for both but we did not come up with a clear winner. I was just wondering, what do you guys think is the better dagger?

[Malthar]

Mandau. End thread.

[Babekeke]

Twashtar is good if you like to play DNC competitively too. Otherwise, Mandau.

[Elphy]

Mandau if you are purely thf

Twashtar if you play both thf and dnc or are purely dnc

Mandau for your thf and Twashtar for your dnc if you have the time and resources

pair up either one with a str thokcha and your golden, and if you do get both do not dual wield mandau/twashtar, you may think its better, but its not

[Yenecol]

I do not think it is as simple as people make it out to be. I went with a mandau thief friend to try out our numbers on some trolls. I was consistently outdamaging his mercy stroke with my rudra's storm by about 1k each time. Perhaps part of the difference is that I off-hand a TP bonus magian dagger and only go when I have 200tp. MS from my understanding gets no damage bonus from more TP.

I would say if your playstyle is to WS as soon as you hit 100, mandau is for you. However, if you like the idea of more consistent one-hit damage, Twashtar should not be ignored.

[Arcon]

I would say if your playstyle is to WS as soon as you hit 100, mandau is for you. However, if you like the idea of more consistent one-hit damage, Twashtar should not be ignored.

It makes no sense to save TP to more than 100% purposefully, unless it's for the beginning of a hard zerg (for which THF will not matter much). Rudra's at 200% TP with a TP Bonus offhand means 300% for every WS, which means 5.25 fTP instead of 4.25 fTP at 100% with the same offhand. However, it takes you twice as long to get to 200% as 100%, meaning you can do 2x 4.25 fTP WS or 1x 5.25 fTP WS, the first option being almost twice as good. The discrepancy gets even worse with a TP Bonus offhand. The only upside is the 40% ODD rate compared to the 30% ODD rate, but that still doesn't make up for the loss.

Also, your numbers mean very little. Was SA/TA used? What was your gear and which buffs did you have on?? What level for both weapons? What was the sample size and on which mobs? None of that really matters, though, as we have the math available. You can calculate which would be the best dagger for you without having to rely on unqualified anecdotes.

[Karbuncle]

I do not think it is as simple as people make it out to be. I went with a mandau thief friend to try out our numbers on some trolls. I was consistently outdamaging his mercy stroke with my rudra's storm by about 1k each time. Perhaps part of the difference is that I off-hand a TP bonus magian dagger and only go when I have 200tp. MS from my understanding gets no damage bonus from more TP.

I would say if your playstyle is to WS as soon as you hit 100, mandau is for you. However, if you like the idea of more consistent one-hit damage, Twashtar should not be ignored.

To add a little to what Arcon said, point for point Rudra's is a bit stronger than Mercy, however, Mercy benefits from a lot of things that aren't readily noticable if you're not... paying attention?

Mandau offers 40 Attack, great for everything ever.
Aftermath is 5% Critical hit rate bonus.
Always has OTD of about 11%.
60% STR mod + 30% WSDMG

Thwastar offers 20DEX
ODD of ~30/40% With max TP.
??% DEX Mod (I effing forgot okay!)

While they both have the same DPS, the attack bonus, critical hit rate bonus, and even that measly 10hp/tic poison from Mandau alone will make up for any amount of more WS Damage you can do with Rudra's. Eyeballing is never really a solid representation of power, but point for point, Mandau > Thwastar at 99 for THF, its just plain and simple.

Plus, the STR Mod really helps its case, as a lot of DEX gear comes with that lovely STR Already attached, and STR offers benefits to fSTR, so stacking it along with the mod itself is peachy. .... Or something.

Further, Offhanding a TP Bonus dagger, you're losing benefits of a STR Kila, which a Mandau can take full advantage of, which will further the gap in just white damage a bit further.

Regardless, Now, Thwast is not a bad weapon, not saying that at all, Its just slightly less awesome than Mandau. Pretty sure this has been show time over.

[Arcon]

To add a little to what Krabby said:


Mandau offers 40 Attack, great for everything ever.
Aftermath is 5% Critical hit rate bonus.
Always has OTD of about 11%.
60% STR mod + 30% WSDMG

It's actually +40% at 99, which is easier to get than even Twashtar 95, and the OTD is 13%.


Thwastar offers 20DEX
ODD of ~30/40% With max TP.
??% DEX Mod (I effing forgot okay!)

Also 60% DEX, which is actually pretty good, and potentially better than STR, because it can take full advantage of the DEX you equip for SA anyway. As usual, depends on the gear used and situation you're in. In terms of power Twashtar's Aftermath is considerably more powerful than Mandau's OTD, not only because of the significantly higher rate (30%) but also because of it can proc on any double/triple attack hits, which is significant for a THF. However, its biggest drawback is the duration, because it lasts for only 30s, while the Mandau's effect is permanent, so it probably wins in this regard, but it depends on how often you can couple Rudra's with SA/TA.

[Babekeke]

Not to mention that most THFs when fighting anything significant, are going to want to use TA Exenterator at some point: Partly because the AGI mod stacks great with Trick Attack, but also because -20 Acc on the mob that stacks with blind/flash, is not to be sniffed at.

And Mandau (40 att) beats Twashtar (20 DEX) in this respect as well.

[Nebo]

However, its biggest drawback is the duration, because it lasts for only 30s, while the Mandau's effect is permanent, so it probably wins in this regard, but it depends on how often you can couple Rudra's with SA/TA.

This is a big one. Not being able to stack WS and using Exent/Evisc really cuts into the aftermath benefits of Twashtar.

I can only speak for lvl 90 Twashtar (Although lvl 99 just adds a few points of dex and base damage), but I wish my Mandau was finished when it's difficult to stack WS.

In VW I can easily see Twashtar pulling ahead due to temps and lvl 3 aftermath, potentially abyssea as well due to boosted stats, better synergy with best DD atmas, and high rate ODD crits (meh, who cares about abyssea damage)?

But as a Twashtar owner, I find myself longing for that golden butter knife on several occasions. And its easier to make a post 90 mandau.

I sometimes feel like, with proper buffs and ideal positioning conditions, Twashtar might have a higher potential. (LIES, who lets a THF in the buffed DD party?) But I do not find myself in those situations very often.


Not to mention that most THFs when fighting anything significant, are going to want to use TA Exenterator at some point:


Is this really a thing? Granted I don't get on much these days after I came back from my long break so I still don't have the NNI gear, but I have never seen a TA Exent out damage a TA Rudra's.

Is TA Exent more potent and I'm just doing it wrong?

[Lokithor]

No question about Mandau. I just wanted to echo the post about using TP Bonus Centovente in the off hand with Twashtar. I've done some simple testing and the difference is dramatic, even when WS'ing at 100%. It's also very easy and quick to acquire.

[Arcon]

Is TA Exent more potent and I'm just doing it wrong?

Too lazy to do the math atm, but it shouldn't be, and if it is, it's not by much. Maybe inside Abyssea with some weird buffs, but that's just about it. Both Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm should outperform Exenterator with Trick Attack.


No question about Mandau. I just wanted to echo the post about using TP Bonus Centovente in the off hand with Twashtar. I've done some simple testing and the difference is dramatic, even when WS'ing at 100%. It's also very easy and quick to acquire.

The difference is bigger at 100% than at 200%, that was my point earlier.

[saevel]

99 Mandau easily. MS is 60% STR mod. The thing with STR is that it also doubles as the fSTR term for a further boost. It takes 4 STR to raise your base DMG by 1 so we can term +STR as the equivalent of approx +30% WSC.

+10 STR for MS would give you
10 * .6 * .85 = +5.1 DMG from WSC
10 * .25 = +2.5 DMG from fSTR

on a 60% DEX WS you would only get the +5.1 from the WSC and +5 accuracy which is almost meaningless on RS.

@99 you can treat MS's +40% damage bonus as a modifier to it's fTP for quick comparisons. That gives MS the equivalent of 5.6 fTP vs RS's 4.25 (@100).

So yeah better mods and better overall damage potential. The only situation that RS is better is SA stacking once every 50s.

[Nebo]

So yeah better mods and better overall damage potential. The only situation that RS is better is SA stacking once every 50s.

So you're saying that MS is obviously better by saying that Rudra's is better 50% of the time?

The value of fSTR in favor of MS is being overstated a bit for two reasons. 1. fSTR caps low for daggers. 2. There are gear pieces that you would use with MS for STR that would also be used use for RS because of the DEX on them. There is also quite a bit of decent gear with both STR and DEX along the road to the best set.

People always seem to neglect that significant chunk of 60% modifier built right into the weapon on Twashtar. Whatever gains you are going to see in base damage boost before your fSTR is capped are likely to be mitigated quite a bit by that DEX. Not to mention the ACC and significant Crit Rate it can give you at varying levels of dDEX.

MS NEEDED that 40% boost at 99 because it was weaker than RS. It is not the blowout at 99 it is being made out to be.

fSTR and attack both cap. It would be more accurate to say that Mandau + MS make it easier to hit those caps. And probably more realistically as well, because a THF will likely not find himself in the DD buff party often.

It would also be more accurate to say that it is easier to make a stronger Mandau than a comparable Twashtar (the real reason I'm finishing mine).

However, it is not very accurate to say that Mandau has more potential as a result. Because it is also possible to cap both fSTR and Attack with Twashtar, at which point RS + aftermath may have more overal damage potential: Massive amount of DEX, stronger ODD, greater situational damage over 100 TP, easier crit rate gains from dDEX.

Stacking with Sneak Attack is not the only situation where RS comes out ahead. There are several where Twashtar has the advantage. Specifically being Voidwatch (300TP RS + Lvl 3 Aftermath spam shits all over anything Mandau can do) and Abyssea (Better Syngery with best THF DD Atma). But also anything where you can cap (or close to cap) fSTR and Attack easily with just RCB, Acid Bolts/Defense down methods (Dual box mage mule) and/or subjob. EG: EP Dynamis, where stacking with Sneak Attack is mostly possible due to procing, and is frequently >100TP because you are holding TP while spamming defense down debuffs to proc.. Advantage: Twashtar.

I agree that Mandau is a stronger dagger for more situations that a THF finds himself in, and am working on one myself. But its strength lies more in the fact that its easier to get gains in attack in the absence of buffs, allows for stronger unstacked exenterator (It may not win for Evisceration) when you cannot stack and it provides a marginal boost over RS in high level VIT HNM situations where fSTR is dificult to cap.

It does not blow Twashtar out of the water all over the place. There are many situations where Twashtar wins (not to mention its overall greater synergy with Sneak Attack).

The two are very comparable in terms of their damage output potential. They just have different strengths.

Imo, the main problem with Twashtar's image is that more crap Thieves (Sub DNC or NIN to DD when procs aren't needed, don't have proper or high end gear swaps, no DT sets, no proper food, blah blah) have one because they are so easy to get to lvl 90. And then they try to bring their abyssea THF to something like voidwatch.

Most just put basic sets together of miss-matched whatever that they have gotten from events they've done on their other mains, so they can farm weak crap with THF, and have a decent weapon to go with their TH whore.

[Calamity]

Mandau if you are purely thf

Twashtar if you play both thf and dnc or are purely dnc

Mandau for your thf and Twashtar for your dnc if you have the time and resources

pair up either one with a str thokcha and your golden, and if you do get both do not dual wield mandau/twashtar, you may think its better, but its not

Not completely true. If you take the twashtar to 99, it can beat str thokcha, but not enough to make it worth the investment unless you have already made it.

[bigdave]

mandu is awsome i love mine

[Yenecol]

You can calculate which would be the best dagger for you without having to rely on unqualified anecdotes.

Meh, my unqualified anecdote served its purpose. Prior to my post, this was a dead thread with no real info on it. I knew that, if I posted about how a guy with the almighty mandau got frustrated because his mercy stroke he could not beat my rudra's storm, the math people would crawl out of the woodwork.

But just to sate your curiosity, we had no buffs on, we were fighting troll paladins in bhaflau thickets (the ones in front of the cave/zone on the way toward the tower with the colibris people used to level on so long ago) and we were stacking with sneak attack. I am pretty sure he had 95 mandau. My twashtar is 90. I was surprised that the difference was great enough to be eyeballed. This was not a serious test, I just wanted to see what I could look forward to since I am working towards a mandau.

Why would I save my TP to 200? Because Rudra's storm is crap unless it is stacked and by the time sneak or trick are ready to go again, I usually have 200+ thanks to a healthy amount of triple attack gear. Spamming every time I hit 100 would mean having to go unstacked (which means I would use another WS altogether). Besides, as other people pointed out, rudra's aftermath is great.

[Arcon]

Why would I save my TP to 200? Because Rudra's storm is crap unless it is stacked and by the time sneak or trick are ready to go again, I usually have 200+ thanks to a healthy amount of triple attack gear. Spamming every time I hit 100 would mean having to go unstacked (which means I would use another WS altogether).

Precisely, use another WS when SA/TA aren't up.

[Meril]

I rarely ever post but wth, so, I want to make this as simple as possible, cause I dont even bother to read posts that are muliple paragraphs long, I have a 99 Twashtar, use TP bonus Centovente, and WS at 125% cause I have 25 TP earring, basicly going for 250 TP WS. However, thats only for stacking lol. IDK why ppl would even be comparing non stacked #s... if you have a 99 Twash or Mandau you wouldnt have Extenterator merited?

[Meril]

oh haha arcon posted the same time i did, oh well. point made :)