Two-Handed Jobs over reliance on /SAM

[Ophannus]

This is something that has annoyed me ever since THF, BLU and DNC were granted Dual Wield natively over the last few years. When Hasso/Seigen were released, it was amazing, finally Two-Handed jobs had a way to mitigate damage without sacrificing much offense. But now we've become too reliant on /SAM, meanwhile SAM itself is free to sub WAR and benefit from both Hasso/Seigan as well as have Berserk, while WAR could do the same. Dark Knight benefits completely from /SAM since they have high attack power natively and /SAM offers them defense and capped haste when stacked with Last Resort+Desperate Blows.

Now that /DRK will grant +15% attack speed, SAM/DRK, just like DRK/SAM will experience capped haste as well making them very, very poweful. WAR to a lesser extent benefits well from /SAM, they too have naturally high attack due to Berserk and such but no native attack speed bonus. DRG, unfortunately compromises between extra attack and attack speed, choosing /SAM over /WAR because unlike SAM, DRK, WAR; DRG has neither a native haste nor a native attack boost. This creates a high dependance for WAR and DRG on solely subbing /SAM.

A native attack boost JA for DRG ability similar to Berserk would allow DRGs to explore other subjobs and allow us to compete better against high defense targets. It could also make /DRG more appealing if it was made to be a below level 49 and might be useful.

Just like how THF DNC BLU had their own Dual Wield and now do not rely on /NIN for survivability or attack speed, WAR and DRG ought to get their own attack speed bonus or some kind of redistribution. Weaken Hasso as /SAM but give DRG and WAR their own +10% attack speed boosts so that DRG WAR DRK SAM can all get around the same JA haste with various subjob combinations. It's extremely overpowered and skewed if SAM/DRK and DRK/SAM can both get 25% attack speed but not WARs or DRGs being two handed jobs as well. Maybe you guys can also give WAR or DRG a few tiers of Store TP as well.

[Tanama]

I agreed with just about all of your post except:


Weaken Hasso as /SAM but give DRG and WAR their own +10% attack speed boosts so that DRG WAR DRK SAM can all get around the same JA haste with various subjob combinations.

I'm all for giving WAR and DRG attack speed buffs but not at the cost of an unnecessary nerf.

[saevel]

You do realize that DRK/WAR gets 25% capped JA haste (3 our of 4:10 min) right? It's one of the reasons that it's such a popular combo, don't need Hasso at all and get another 25% attack boost with 10% DA.

The /SAM jobs are

WAR and DRG. WAR goes /SAM because it gets nothing worthwhile from any other job, /DRK might be interesting for GAXE zergs. DRG goes /SAM for the 10% JA haste which it can not acquire otherwise. And ... that's all the 2H jobs there is.

So your "over reliance" is actually just two jobs.

[Mirage]

I agreed with just about all of your post except:



I'm all for giving WAR and DRG attack speed buffs but not at the cost of an unnecessary nerf.

What exactly would it nerf? Post examples of jobs ending up with less JA haste than without this change.

[Afania]

You do realize that DRK/WAR gets 25% capped JA haste (3 our of 4:10 min) right? It's one of the reasons that it's such a popular combo, don't need Hasso at all and get another 25% attack boost with 10% DA.

The /SAM jobs are

WAR and DRG. WAR goes /SAM because it gets nothing worthwhile from any other job, /DRK might be interesting for GAXE zergs. DRG goes /SAM for the 10% JA haste which it can not acquire otherwise. And ... that's all the 2H jobs there is.

So your "over reliance" is actually just two jobs.

Two jobs out of three 2h DD that's not SAM, quite a lot.

[Tanama]

What exactly would it nerf? Post examples of jobs ending up with less JA haste than without this change.

I'm referring to the nerf to Hasso that Ophannus called for. I don't think nerfing Hasso as /SAM should be a counter to having a native 10% JA haste ability for WAR and DRG.

[Mirage]

You don't think, no. Well, you also don't know how much hasso would be nerfed so there's no way of knowing until that was decided on.

[Tanama]

Hasso on /SAM shouldn't be nerfed in exchange for giving WAR and DRG it's own 10% JA haste ability. Why not have both and allow them to stack together for an awesome 20%? Then, WAR and DRG could also sub DRK and cap JA haste for 3/5 minutes with the adjusted Last Resort.

[FrankReynolds]

Store TP is a lame trait anyways...

[Mirage]

(That's interesting.)

[FrankReynolds]

Sarcasm... Seriously though. Who cares if you get 5% more JA haste when it takes you 20% longer to WS?

[saevel]

Seeing as WAR can't reach the 80% haste cap without Hasso, it's be far the most important part of /SAM.

Equipment = 256/1024 (25%)
Magic Haste = 448/1024 (43.75%)
JA Haste Hasso = 102/1024 (9.996%) (assuming the decimal is dropped like most haste effects, it's also possible to be 100/1024).

JA Haste LR = 153/1024 (14.94%) (could be 150/1024)

WAR without Hasso = 704/1024 = 68.75% Haste
WAR with Hasso = 806/1024 = 78.71% Haste

Difference
100/.3125 vs 100/.2129
320 vs 469.704
469.704/320 = 1.4678.

The haste from Hasso is responsible for a 46.78% improvement.

Lets try /DRK for a fight that's 3min or less (zerg)
Haste is now capped at "80%" (Note to BG folks, is it 819/1024, 820/1024 or 800/1024?)
100/.2 = 500

500/469.704 = 1.0645

So possibly up to 6.4% increase in DPS from getting the final sliver needed of JA haste.

~That~ is how important haste is once your over 50%. It dominates everything until you hit the cap and is the prime reason you see WAR, DRK and SAM doing the most followed by DRG. MNK can be anywhere between them or even under depending on target level of the NM.