Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future [Archive]

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Camate

01-12-2013, 06:58 AM

Happy Friday everyone!

Please take a moment to read the below comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui regarding overall battle adjustments.

---
Hello.

Thank you for the vast amount of feedback regarding battle.

We’ve received a variety of different adjustment suggestions and amongst them a suggestion for enfeebling. However, instead of thinking about this in terms of individual points, I’ve been reading over everything from the viewpoint of battle overall.

Towards the end of last year I made a series of posts about the plans we have; however, this raised the issue of requests for more specific, concrete details, which in turn made it difficult for all of you to hold discussions. With that said, from an overall battle system perspective, I would like to share a couple of ideas the development team is currently thinking about.

Please note that all of these ideas have not been finalized. Also, please know that the below is not the entirety of the overall battle adjustments.
We’d appreciate it greatly if you took the content listed here to not represent the cure-all solution, and see it more as things we will be doing while working to solve the issues.

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons

This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about making adjustments to single-handed weapons, and we would like to perform adjustments.

As has been mentioned, food and other choices are quite limited due to the fact that status modifiers are far greater for two-handed weapons and there is a higher need for accuracy when using single-handed weapons.

For example, we are currently looking into the possibility of adding some form of merit that would enhance the modifiers for the single-handed weapon main weapon slot.

Regarding Dark Knight

This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about dark knight being too powerful. As was commented during VanaFest, we feel dark knight is becoming powerful, and at the same time decided to put off the adjustments we had looked into at that time. I believe there are many who remember this.
We are currently looking to adjust Desperate Blows and Last Resort.

Currently, the haste cap for equipment and magic is the same for all jobs, but haste from abilities is a separate category outside of this cap, and Desperate Blows is the ability with the highest value of haste.

However, simply reducing the value of Desperate Blows would only cause dark knight to become weaker, so we are considering giving a portion of the total haste effect granted from Desperate Blows to Last Resort, and giving the remaining amount back to Desperate Blows.

Current

Desperate Blows +25%

Post-adjustment

Desperate Blows +10% (*Value with 5 merit points)
Last Resort +15%

Simply put, this adjustment will allow you to gain this effect in the case you use dark knight as your support job.

While currently, it might be difficult to imagine the situations where a front-line job would select dark knight for their support job, we would like to look into this based on this possibility.

Regarding Defense

This is a topic that we have received feedback on asking to increase the boons of defense. Due to the attack/defense ratio, the meaning behind adding defense past a certain value starts to become pointless, and we would like to make it have meaning.

As a merit, for example, the more you increase your defense, the lower the damage taken will be and the boons for Defender would become large.
On the other hand, while under the effects of abilities that decrease defense such as Berserk or Last Resort, the damage you take would become higher than what it is currently.

Merit Point Weapon Skills

This is a topic we have seen in threads asking to increase the cap on the merit point weapon skill category.
Instead of adjusting the cap value, we are currently looking into adjusting the modifier values so that these weapon skills can be used with a single merit point.

We are envisioning to make it so 1 merit point will yield a 65% status modifier, and each point afterwards will grant an addition 5% for a maximum of 85% (no changes to the max value).

Elemental Magic

We have received a variety of feedback on elemental magic.
The first thing I’m thinking of doing is making adjustments to the damage calculations.

Here’s my current image of how elemental magic is going to work:
The damage output on earth element spells will initially be lower compared to the rest of the elements, but have the best cost performance overall. Also, INT will have an even larger impact on the damage output. As a result, players will basically try to raise their INT and magic attack to get closer to the damage output done by lightning element spells.

Breakdown by element

MP Efficiency: Earth > Water > Wind > Fire > Ice > Lightning
INT Offset: Earth > Water > Wind > Fire > Ice > Lightning
Initial Damage Output: Lightning > Ice > Fire > Wind > Water > Earth
Maximum Damage Output: Lightning > Ice > Fire > Wind > Water > Earth

Breakdown by spell tier

MP Efficiency: I > II > III > IV > V
INT Offset: V > IV > III > II > I
Initial Damage Output: V > IV > III > II > I
Maximum Damage Output: V > IV > III > II > I

The charts below explain my idea in detail.
* The magic attack does not include any offsets.
* “INT+0” and “INT+100” represents the INT difference between the caster and the target.

<table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=5 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td rowspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier I</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+0</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+100</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Earth</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">42</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">160</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Water</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">16</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">25</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">66</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">165</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Wind</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">25</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">40</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">92</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">170</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Fire</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">35</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">55</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">108</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">175</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">46</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">70</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">126</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">180</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">60</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">85</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">149</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">185</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=5 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td rowspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier II</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+0</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+100</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">78</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">100</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">175</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">350</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">95</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">120</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">195</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">355</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">113</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">140</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">213</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">360</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">133</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">160</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">233</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">365</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">155</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">180</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">255</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">370</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">178</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">200</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">278</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">375</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=5 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td rowspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier III</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+0</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+100</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">210</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">200</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">360</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">550</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">236</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">230</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">386</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">560</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">265</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">260</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">415</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">570</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">295</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">290</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">445</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">580</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">320</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">320</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">470</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">590</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">345</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">350</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">495</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">600</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=5 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td rowspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier IV</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+0</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+100</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">381</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">400</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">581</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">850</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">410</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">440</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">610</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">865</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">440</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">480</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">640</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">880</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">472</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">520</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">672</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">895</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">506</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">560</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">706</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">910</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">541</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">600</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">741</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">925</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=5 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td rowspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier V</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+0</td><td colspan=2 bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">INT+100</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Before</td><td colspan=1 width="20%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">626</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">650</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">855</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1200</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">680</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">700</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">909</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1220</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">734</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">750</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">967</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1240</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">785</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">800</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1014</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1260</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">829</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">850</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1058</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1280</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">874</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">900</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1103</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1300</td></tr></table>

As far as casting time and recast time goes, here’s my current idea:
- Tier I~V spells will all have same casting time / recast time.
For example, Tier I spells will have a casting time of 0.5 seconds and recast time of 2 seconds. Therefore, both Thunder I and Stone I will have the casting time of 0.5 seconds and recast time of 2 seconds.

The charts below explain my idea in detail.

<table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=7 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"> <td width="25%" rowspan=2 align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier I</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">MP Cost</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Casting Time</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Recast Time</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">9</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">4</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">0.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">13</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">0.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">7.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">18</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">16</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">2</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">0.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">9</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">24</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">22</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">2.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">0.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">30</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">28</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">2.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">0.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">11.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">37</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">34</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">0.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">13</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">2</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=7 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"> <td width="25%" rowspan=2 align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier II</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">MP Cost</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Casting Time</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Recast Time</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">43</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">36</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">3.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">14.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">51</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">43</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">3.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">15.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">59</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">51</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">3.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">17</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">68</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">60</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">4.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">18.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">77</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">68</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">4.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">19.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">86</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">77</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">4.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">1.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">21</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=7 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"> <td width="25%" rowspan=2 align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier III</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">MP Cost</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Casting Time</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Recast Time</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">92</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">64</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">5.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">22.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">15</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">98</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">5.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">24</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">15</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">106</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">88</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">5.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">25.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">15</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">113</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">101</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">26.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">15</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">120</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">115</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">27.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">15</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">128</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">129</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">3</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">29.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">15</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=7 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"> <td width="25%" rowspan=2 align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier IV</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">MP Cost</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Casting Time</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Recast Time</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">138</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">112</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">7</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">30.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">30</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">144</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">129</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">7.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">32</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">30</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">150</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">148</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">7.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">33.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">30</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">157</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">169</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">8</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">34.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">30</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">164</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">190</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">8.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">36</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">30</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">171</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">213</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">8.5</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">6</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">37.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">30</td></tr></table><br><br><table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><col width=72 span=7 style='width:54pt'><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"> <td width="25%" rowspan=2 align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Tier V</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">MP Cost</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Casting Time</td> <td colspan=2 width="25%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Recast Time</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">Before</td> <td bgcolor="#a8d0d7" width="12%" align="center">After</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Earth</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">222</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">156</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">8.75</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">39</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">45</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Water</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">239</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">182</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">9.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">40.25</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">45</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Wind</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">255</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">210</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">9.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">41.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">45</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Fire</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">270</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">240</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">9.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">42.75</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">45</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Ice</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">282</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">272</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">44</td> <td bgcolor="#f5fafb" align="right">45</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"> <td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Lightning</td> <td bgcolor="#ffd900" align="right">294</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">306</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10.25</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">10</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">45.5</td> <td bgcolor="#eaf2f3" align="right">45</td></tr></table>

Please note that we will be making additional adjustments on elemental magic using this change as the foundation.

Regarding Content

To start off, we are looking into adjustments for new Nyzul, Legion, Odin's Chamber II, Voidwatch (up to Provenance Watcher), Salvage, and in the event there is further necessity, new Salvage as well.

Below is what we are looking into for adjustments.

New Nyzul

Adjustments to the warp range of floors

Legion

Adjustments to monster levels
Adjustments to attack power and defense

Odin's Chamber II

Adjustments to monster levels

Voidwatch

Expand the usage range of the void clusters to Provenance (Provenance Watcher)

Salvage

Re-examine the drop rate of level 35 equipment
Make a change so that monsters other than the NMs that spawn from ramparts in Bhaflau Remnants drop the same equipment

Walk of Echoes

Adjustments to monster levels
Remove EX status from each type of coin
Add sacks that contain multiple Devious Die and Liminal Residue

Past this, we will continue to make adjustments as necessary, and we will be making it so strategy and play style variations can be developed instead of having to win with a huge amount of fire power in a short amount of time.

While I am repeating myself, the above are by no means finalized. There are many other topics we are looking into at the moment (enmity, TP given to enemies, etc.), so I would appreciate it if you could read over all of this on the basis that there is a possibility that the implementation order and adjustment method changes.

Thank you very much.
---

Byrth

01-12-2013, 07:03 AM

I approve of this, and would like to know two things mainly:

1) The Japanese post used the term "correction" for the 1H adjustments, which was interpreted by us to mean "level correction" to Ratio/Accuracy. Could you confirm if this is accurate?

2) Desperate Blows currently only applies to 2-handed weapons. Would Last Resort post-update still only give 2-handed weapon Haste, or would 1-handed jobs also be able to benefit from it?

Mefuki

01-12-2013, 07:10 AM

I'm extremely pleased with all of this. It makes me hopeful for Matsui's FFXI.

One question though, is BLU's "magical" magic spells going to be buffed in a similar fashion? We're already lagging behind a bit as it is in that department, (even in our nuking sets, etc, of course).

Rorrick

01-12-2013, 07:12 AM

Will any one-handed adjustment affect hand-to-hand weapons?

Unctgtg

01-12-2013, 07:59 AM

Really Dark knights are becoming to powerful.. I am a career dark and always played second fiddle to War, and Sam alike...

Elro

01-12-2013, 08:05 AM

Toadie-Odie

01-12-2013, 08:16 AM

SpankWustler

01-12-2013, 08:16 AM

I'd like to hear more about the adjustments being considered to one-handed weapons, such as whether the change would simply be the effects of STR and DEX or something a bit more profound.

Generally, though:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf6mj9JoOh1qdf5lco1_500.gif

Zeroe

01-12-2013, 08:17 AM

Nerf Dark? Only became strong because of resolution, not because of haste. They nerf it, I'm done. Tired of my job being spit on with no adjustments to emp scythe and magic.

Demon6324236

01-12-2013, 08:18 AM

Its already capped at 85%, that does not change, however I will agree that I am not happy with it, they can never simply do as we ask no matter how easy it is, or how much it makes sense.

Economizer

01-12-2013, 08:19 AM

Just trying to limit discussion here to the points you brought up now.

Spell adjustments seem pretty solid. Will they apply to Banish spells in any way? Will the AoE versions see a similar change? Will Ancient Magic see a similar change?

The Merit WS adjustment is a welcome change, but I want to reiterate that it is still not going to ultimately solve the problem. The problem is that a capped (meaning you have to pick and choose what you do) merit system is the antithesis of the job system. We will never be truly happy with anything less then uncapped merits, particularly in the field of WS. There has been an extremely popular thread on the English forums detailing this and how to fix it, and it was ultimately shrugged off. This difference in opinion isn't one of wanting things slightly different then what the dev team wants however, the difference is a deep, core opposition of the reasoning given for the capped merit system, with solid and unrefuted arguments for the opposition to a capped merit system.

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons

This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about making adjustments to single-handed weapons, and we would like to perform adjustments.

As has been mentioned, food and other choices are quite limited due to the fact that status modifiers are far greater for two-handed weapons and there is a higher need for accuracy when using single-handed weapons.

For example, we are currently looking into the possibility of adding some form of merit that would enhance the modifiers for the single-handed weapon main weapon slot.

This change is far too important for a form of merit that you'd have to pick and choose over some other merit. If this is merited, it absolutely must be in its own category, lest someone just be forced to merit something else for their 2h, ranged attack, or magic using job.

This change is also far too important to fix with some job ability. Most 1h users already lag well behind jobs with Dual Wield natively, and massively behind 2h users. For the sake of keeping player options open when using any job, the fix has to be universally available to all jobs.

Additionally, this change should affect Blue Magic and Hand-to-Hand a well. If making the default behavior change is not in your plans, please consider a quest to unlock the full potential of 1h, Blue Magic, and H2H weapons, similar to how the Gobbie Bag Quests unlock the full potential of your bag.

I'd at least like to see the maximum modifiers for 1h/H2H/Blue Magic raised to the same level as 2h weapons, even if 2h weapons keep the favorable modifiers.

Another option that I'd like to see explored in addition to other changes would be having 1h weapons that are single wielded see the same modifiers as 2h weapons, and perhaps even benefit from job abilities that only help 2h weapons, in an effort to open up more subjob options for certain jobs. I think a deep discussion of this as an additional change would give us more thought towards making interesting and tactical gameplay, even if it is ultimately decided against.

The reasoning for the changes to 2h weapons was that Dual Wield made 1h weapons universally better - well with large amounts of Haste in the game, this has changed, particularly at high levels. We have needed a fix for some time, and I'm happy to see the first steps towards addressing this problem.

SpankWustler

01-12-2013, 08:21 AM

I absolutely hate the suggested merit point weaponskill. So with no increase in merit cap if i keep my current three weaponskill at 5 merits each I'll get to look forward to a nerf from 100% to 85% stat modifier? Absolutely dreadful and definitely not what we have been asking for. I'd rather keep it as is then implement this change.

Whenever the Development Bros or the Community Bros talk about the merit weaponskills, they figure the alpha value (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/WSC) for level 99 into their number.

Long story short, they use slightly different terminology and their 85% is what most players would refer to as 100%.

Demon6324236

01-12-2013, 08:23 AM

Nerf Dark? Only became strong because of resolution, not because of haste. They nerf it, I'm done. Tired of my job being spit on with no adjustments to emp scythe and magic.Did you not even read what was said? They are making it so that Desperate Blows gives 2% Haste per merit, while Last Resort will give 15% standardly, meaning the end result of 25% is the same, but subbing DRK would give the Haste from Last Resort as well. It is in no way nerfing DRK, simply making it a stronger subjob.

saevel

01-12-2013, 08:28 AM

I absolutely hate the suggested merit point weaponskill. So with no increase in merit cap if i keep my current three weaponskill at 5 merits each I'll get to look forward to a nerf from 100% to 85% stat modifier? Absolutely dreadful and definitely not what we have been asking for. I'd rather keep it as is then implement this change.

You read it wrong. Our standard for WSC and SE's standard for stating WSC is different. SE is stating the final WSC given after level alpha while we use the initial prior to level alpha. We do that because level alpha changes as your level changes yet the base WSC doesn't.

Players: Ruinator = 100% STR (20% per merit) initial, level 80+ has a Level alpha of 0.85 so 100 * 0.85 = 85% final STR WSC.

SE: Ruinator = 85% WSC (17% per merit) final WSC.

So what their saying is changing the tier 1 to 65% final, so something like 75% initial.

Edyth

01-12-2013, 08:29 AM

Regarding Dark Knight
The only possible FF game where you could say DRK is overpowered is the PSP remake of FF Tactics, or perhaps X-2, but not FFXI.

Dark Knight is in need of major help because of the fact that it is perceived as slightly weaker than WAR and SAM, and therefore by elitist logic is "useless." "Loldrk" is treated like it's lightyears behind WAR and SAM by the general English-speaking FFXI community. I'm not saying this is true in terms of the jobs' actual power, but that's how the community views DRK.

Desperate Blows is a great ability, yes. It's often considered one of the only things DRK has going for it. I'm not going to list all the great things about SAM and WAR because I don't want to spend 15 more minutes on this post. This proposed Desperate Blows nerf and Last Resort buff will make DRK a more viable subjob, but it takes away one of the job's best qualities and distributes it to the ravenous WARs and SAMs that have already made DRKs into pariahs anyway.

Merit Point Weapon Skills
Yes, please. And whoever said that it's a nerf, the post states there are no changes to the max value.

Toadie-Odie

01-12-2013, 08:32 AM

Whenever the Development Bros or the Community Bros talk about the merit weaponskills, they figure the alpha value (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/WSC) for level 99 into their number.

Long story short, they use slightly different terminology and their 85% is what most players would refer to as 100%.

/facepalm Okay I didn't know that. In fact I don't even know what alpha value means or represents.

I just know that when you math savvy players start posting your calculations and what-not I suddenly feel like I'm on an alien planet with no translator. To me it looks like the equations are built with variables or mathimatical symbols (like that of pi) but I have no idea what they mean.

Anywho, back on topic... so they are saying they would like to make the initial merit point placed in the weaponskill worth more than the initial merit is worth right now? Meaning that those that want a variety of weaponskill merited could do so and still be viable?

If that's the case then I can see that being a compromise and a good step in the right direction.

saevel

01-12-2013, 08:33 AM

Did you not even read what was said? They are making it so that Desperate Blows gives 2% Haste per merit, while Last Resort will give 15% standardly, meaning the end result of 25% is the same, but subbing DRK would give the Haste from Last Resort as well. It is in no way nerfing DRK, simply making it a stronger subjob.

Need to make the haste effect apply to 1H weapons then, would make a very interesting sub. 15% Attack 15% Haste for 3/5 min along with Attack Bonus II, slightly nerfed Soul Eater (8% HP to 5% damage) and Arcane Circle if your fighting a Arcane boss.

Cowardlybabooon

01-12-2013, 08:34 AM

Every Galka Black Mage and Scholar in Vanadiel will love you for this. Yeah we will have to go get magian staves and obi's for elements other than Thunder and Ice, but we will gladly do so for half the MP cost and a ton of variety added to the job!

Also the Single-Handed weapons thing really has to be seen in implementation before we can fully understand the impact, but the fact that you are addressing it at all is very welcome.

Could you make any comments on Red Mage? I don't have it leveled but I would if it were used for anything. You can at least tell people you're hearing their cry and simply don't like any of the wacky suggestions people make but also don't have any of your own at this time.

Demon6324236

01-12-2013, 08:35 AM

This proposed Desperate Blows nerf and Last Resort buff will make DRK a more viable subjob, but it takes away one of the job's best qualities and distributes it to the ravenous WARs and SAMs that have already made DRKs into pariahs anyway.Aggressors Accuracy bonus with Double Attack, Warcry, and Berserk should still put it above /DRK for a SAM, while /SAM should be ahead for WARs because of the STP, Hasso already filling part of that void, Sekka, and Meditate. So while this sounds like it may be dangerous, I honestly see nothing changing from that adjustment for now.

Edyth

01-12-2013, 08:40 AM

Aggressors Accuracy bonus with Double Attack, Warcry, and Berserk should still put it above /DRK for a SAM, while /SAM should be ahead for WARs because of the STP, Hasso already filling part of that void, Sekka, and Meditate. So while this sounds like it may be dangerous, I honestly see nothing changing from that adjustment for now.

I agree that this is a likely scenario. In other words, they might as well not change DRK at all.

However, because Last Resort works regardless of whether you are wielding a 2H weapon or not, this may make DRK a nice subjob for Dancers or other dualwielding small hitters, assuming 2H weapons are not made mandatory. Attack bonus + 15% haste + defense penalty when your evasion compensates anyway? Sounds like a nice deal.

SpankWustler

01-12-2013, 08:46 AM

Need to make the haste effect apply to 1H weapons then, would make a very interesting sub.

This is very true. Dark Knight as a sub-job will either be a strong option for several one-handed jobs or just a situational option for Samurai, depending on how the Haste is handled.

Alhanelem

01-12-2013, 08:51 AM

DRK is too strong? that's the funniest thing i've heard in a while. DRKs complain pretty much every day about how much weaker DRK is than other DDs...

Chamaan

01-12-2013, 08:55 AM

Not a big deal or anything. The WoE item is called Devious Die, not Trick Die. I can totally see the translation there.

Elro

01-12-2013, 08:58 AM

You read it wrong. Our standard for WSC and SE's standard for stating WSC is different. SE is stating the final WSC given after level alpha while we use the initial prior to level alpha. We do that because level alpha changes as your level changes yet the base WSC doesn't.

Players: Ruinator = 100% STR (20% per merit) initial, level 80+ has a Level alpha of 0.85 so 100 * 0.85 = 85% final STR WSC.

SE: Ruinator = 85% WSC (17% per merit) final WSC.

So what their saying is changing the tier 1 to 65% final, so something like 75% initial.

Thanks for that explanation. I still don't like the change however since I, like most, always go all in for merits. I'm not willing to sacrifice or compromise damage to get another ws. One of the best and unique aspect of this game has always been the ability to play all jobs on one characters. Limiting us on merit weaponskill totally ruins that for me.

Alhanelem

01-12-2013, 08:58 AM

They should not allow you to fully merit them all, but the cap should be increased. However, the poster above is right in the sentiment that pretty much nobody is going to settle for "almost as good."

The whole point of the merit system is speccing your character. If everyone gets to merit all of everything, it fails hardcore in doing that, because everyone becomes the same. That being said, the current limits are not reasonable for the number of jobs most people play on a regular basis. Between 20 jobs, most people will end up playing more than just 3 of them regularly.

Everyone was fine with the idea of at least increasing the limits, so why slap people in the face and say 'we're not going to do that, but we will do this inferior idea instead that doesn't really do much to solve the issue?"

One of the best and unique aspect of this game has always been the ability to play all jobs on one charactersThis also erases specialization. the merit system was created to give some specialization in a game that had basically none up to that point. That is why you do not get to max out everything. By allowing people to be better at some jobs than others, you still have reason to pick different people for different jobs- like I can play WAR in a pinch, but you should let this guy over here do it if he is available, because he focused more on meriting for WAR than I did.'

Of course, this view is and will be unpopular because given a choice between "less" and "more", everyone normally chooses "more" because more must be better.

SE: Ruinator = 85% WSC (17% per merit) final WSC.

So what their saying is changing the tier 1 to 65% final, so something like 75% initial.That doesn't sound quite right though. The way I read it, the final values will be the same as they are now, but the initial values will be higher, so that there is less difference between a level 1 WS and a maxed WS.

Insaniac

01-12-2013, 08:59 AM

The merit WS change is not very good. No one wants 2 full power WSs and some combination of 2 to 5 gimped ones. Raise or remove the cap. Everyone will love you for it.

Need more info about the 1h adjustment now!! Making whatever it is main hand only feels kinda wonky. The calculations for 1h and 2h need to be more normalized instead of adding more weird special conditions. I also disapprove of it being a merit category.

Everything else sounds neato so far.

Eri

01-12-2013, 09:04 AM

I agree with this sentiment as well. I'm not sure how this is a compromise at all.

What does you Current Merrit Points category tell you? 17% Per Merrit right?

17*5 = 85 .

Chances are that there its absolutly no change to a Tier 5 Merrited WS....

SharMarali

01-12-2013, 09:06 AM

The majority of the changes are welcome and quite well thought-out.

However, like others have said, I disagree with the proposed changes to merit weapon skills.

I get the feeling that the developer team doesn't quite understand the fundamental problem. In a game where we are able to level and gear 20 jobs, we are essentially being asked to choose 3 to specialize in.

We have the choice between having 4-5 extremely underpowered weapon skills or 3 full-powered ones.

With the proposed changes, we will have the choice between having 4-5 somewhat underpowered weapon skills or 3 full-powered ones.

I don't see that this is an improvement. In order to get the most out of these weapon skills, we're still limited to choosing only 3, which is in direct opposition to the ability to be flexible and versatile in job selection.

That said, once again, the remainder of the proposed changes are excellent ideas and should go a long way toward patching existing issues. I can only hope that the developers will reconsider increasing or eliminating the restrictive and arbitrary cap on merit weapon skills.

Alkimi

01-12-2013, 09:08 AM

Regarding elemental magic I'd also like to see a massive increase in DoT spell damage like Bio/Poison/Burn etc. Like 10 times what it is now (at lvl 99). Perhaps have them scale with the relevant magic skill. As its stands the spells are pretty much useless.

Also, elemental magic MP cost could do with getting reduced even further tbh.

Asymptotic

01-12-2013, 09:25 AM

DRK is too strong? that's the funniest thing i've heard in a while. DRKs complain pretty much every day about how much weaker DRK is than other DDs...

Did your server not get Resolution or something?

Nervosa

01-12-2013, 09:25 AM

So you say DRK is to powerful, yet in the end nothing will be changed.
If you want to adjust stuff, look at and how many Ragnaroks have been made just for Resolution.

Kysaiana

01-12-2013, 09:55 AM

Like everyone else has been saying, the proposed change to merit point ws isn't going to do anything for 99% of the players. No one is going to lower the usefulness of one or more ws just to have a few more less crappy ws. Now, if the cap were raised say, 5 to 10 points, as well as this adjustment, then people would be happy, because they can choose to have 1-2 more capped ws or 5-10 more decent ws.

Siiri

01-12-2013, 09:58 AM

Camate

01-12-2013, 10:05 AM

I approve of this, and would like to know two things mainly:

1) The Japanese post used the term "correction" for the 1H adjustments, which was interpreted by us to mean "level correction" to Ratio/Accuracy. Could you confirm if this is accurate?

They are specifically talking about the fact that stats such as DEX and STR affect two-handed weapons more than single-handed weapons, and how they would like to make it so there are more merits to wielding single-handed weapons.
The term "補正" can be translated as "correction" in some cases, but in this context it is the term known as "modifier."

Not a big deal or anything. The WoE item is called Devious Die, not Trick Die. I can totally see the translation there.

Fixed! Thanks for pointing that out! :)

Asymptotic

01-12-2013, 10:17 AM

WHY NO RESPONSE ON THE SECOND QUESTION BYRTH ASKED CAMATE!? D:

Motenten

01-12-2013, 10:18 AM

That doesn't sound quite right though. The way I read it, the final values will be the same as they are now, but the initial values will be higher, so that there is less difference between a level 1 WS and a maxed WS.

The 'final' value being referred to is the WSC after alpha is applied.

Merit SE % (old) Player % (old) SE % (new) Player % (new)
1 17% 20% 65% 76.5%
2 34% 40% 70% 82.4%
3 51% 60% 75% 88.2%
4 68% 80% 80% 94.1%
5 85% 100% 85% 100%

In the existing system, 3 merits is barely passable (ie: roughly equivalent to old replacements like Asuran Fists). 4 is decent. 5 is good. The new numbers mean putting 1-2 merits in a weaponskill puts it at the 'decent' level.

Personal request to the devs: increase total merits available to somewhere in the 16-18 range. I would be perfectly happy with 3 maxed weaponskills and 3 tier 1 weaponskills, or thereabouts. We don't need enough to max out a 4th weaponskill, but the new numbers would make 1-2 merits in a weaponskill quite viable as an option to use on secondary jobs.

Motenten

01-12-2013, 10:23 AM

WHY NO RESPONSE ON THE SECOND QUESTION BYRTH ASKED CAMATE!? D:

That might be because the first question was a translation question, which the reps are perfectly capable of answering since that's their job, whereas the second question was a mechanics question, and thus something they need to verify with the devs. Unsurprisingly, it's likely that they'll need to wait for a response before answering.

Asymptotic

01-12-2013, 10:25 AM

That might be because the first question was a translation question, which the reps are perfectly capable of answering since that's their job, whereas the second question was a mechanics question, and thus something they need to verify with the devs. Unsurprisingly, it's likely that they'll need to wait for a response before answering.

BUT IT'S FRIDAY SO WE HAVE TO WAIT AT LEAST TWO DAYS I DON'T HAVE THAT LONG WHAT IF I DIE BEFORE THEN!? I WILL DIE NOT KNOWING! MY LIFE WILL BE INCOMPLETE!

Excuse me, I appear to have drooled on my caps lock button and gotten it temporarily stuck.

Alhanelem

01-12-2013, 10:49 AM

Did your server not get Resolution or something?
All I know is DRKs have been complaining about everything on this forum since its existence began.

Alhanelem

01-12-2013, 10:53 AM

Personal request to the devs: increase total merits available to somewhere in the 16-18 range. I would be perfectly happy with 3 maxed weaponskills and 3 tier 1 weaponskills, or thereabouts. We don't need enough to max out a 4th weaponskill, but the new numbers would make 1-2 merits in a weaponskill quite viable as an option to use on secondary jobs.Seems like a good compromise to me.

Kincard

01-12-2013, 10:54 AM

The changes to the merit weapon skills are a good compromise (and in fact a better change than simply increasing the category max by a few points), and I will explain why:

As Motenten listed out, it means that under the new system, a 1/5 WS (65%) will be nearly as strong as a 4/5 WS currently is (68%). There are exceptions (Particularly Tachi: Shoha because of how powerful a SAM's other WSs are), but this means that a level 1 weapon skill will almost always be useful now. That extra 20% mod is admittedly quite a bit, but I don't think a lot of you are understanding what the idea behind the adjustment is.

Now, the vision the devs initially thought of (That we can choose between being versatile or being specialized) is actually true, because now even a level 1 weapon skill can be quite useful. As someone who plays a great variety of jobs, I greatly prefer this change over them simply adding an extra 5-10 total levels to the merit category, because now players can pick and choose. Beforehand, investing 1 point into a weapon skill would be completely useless. Now, most of the merit WSs will outdo most non-REM WSs with a single point invested.

Granted, it would be cool to have both this adjustment and a raise to the cap, but people are really exaggerating when they say that you are choosing between having 5 weak weapon skills and 1 strong weapon skill...that was true before. Now you are choosing between having 5 good weapon skill, 2 great weapon skills or 1 amazing weapon skill etc. It's far more flexible than it used to be.

Motenten

01-12-2013, 10:55 AM

Actually, giving it some more thought, I think 17 would be the ideal number.

At 18, people are likely to just do 5/5/4/4, and given how close 4 is to 5 now, you're more or less giving 4 full weaponskills, which I think SE's been trying to avoid.

At 17, though, it becomes 5/5/4/3, which isn't quite as good, and lends itself to more general choices. While most people will almost certainly keep 5/5 on the first two, it's the last set of points that matters.

People who want to keep their third WS at 5 will be given 2 extra points to use on 'extra' weaponskills. For those who want more variety, you're given plenty of room to maneuver among the options. 4/2/1, 3/2/2, 3/2/1/1, 2/2/1/1/1, etc., depending on how many weaponskills they really want. Given that 1 merit in a weaponskill could be considered 'adequate', and that you'd want 2-3 to push it towards 'good', that seems like enough flexibility to allow people to specialize to their own preference.

Keeping it at 15, you can kind of do the same thing, but it really feels a lot more restrictive on your options. 16 might be an 'ok' compromise, but it really doesn't feel like it would lend itself to the proliferation of choice that you'd get at 17.

SpankWustler

01-12-2013, 11:00 AM

BUT IT'S FRIDAY SO WE HAVE TO WAIT AT LEAST TWO DAYS I DON'T HAVE THAT LONG WHAT IF I DIE BEFORE THEN!? I WILL DIE NOT KNOWING! MY LIFE WILL BE INCOMPLETE!

And due to a strong desire for knowledge, your departing soul will forever belong to Belphegor.

http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad89/Saiph42/BelphegorAv02.jpg

THIS MAN'S SOUL HANGS IN THE BALANCE!

Toadie-Odie

01-12-2013, 11:02 AM

What does you Current Merrit Points category tell you? 17% Per Merrit right?

17*5 = 85 .

Chances are that there its absolutly no change to a Tier 5 Merrited WS....

No I'm cool now, someone explained the 85% thing already so I get it now and it doesn't sound horrible to me anymore.

Trumpy

01-12-2013, 11:05 AM

I am happy with the proposed changes to merit WSes. Although i would like a few more merits for cap in that category, i wouldnt mind having a 1 or 2 merit point ws and not have to cap each to make it worthwhile. With 20 (22 soon) jobs there needs to be more options to cap these than 3, but since it is merits i understand they want you to choose. that is basically the whole point of all the merits is to make you choose.

But it isnt like we can wield these weapons all at once and have access to all these WSes at the same time. even if dual wielding 2 weapons you can only access the main hands WSes. This is the same reason i dont get why we cant merit more combat skills (though they have increased this through the years) except these u can benefit from while dual weidling 2 different weapons of course, but you still can only benefit from 2 of those at one time.

All the other stuff i approve. the magic stuff: so now maybe utilizing a mobs magic weakness might actually work cause earth and water might actually do a lil bit more dmg to be worthwhile. of course 90% of the mobs out there are weak to ice or thunder one way or the other but its nice to have options.

Kincard

01-12-2013, 11:10 AM

I should echo the sentiments of others regarding the planned 1H adjustments that a simple adjustment to the STR/DEX scaling of attack and accuracy VS 2 Handers will not help very much at all. Even at level 99 it results in maybe 30-40 extra attack and accuracy on the 2 handers. This is no insignificant amount, but closing this gap, even if it was for both hands, would not help 1 handers at all. The different ratio cap imposed on 1H jobs is what needs to be examined for things to be rebalanced, because acc/attack can generally be capped for any job if they are under the correct buffs, and these are situations 1H jobs truly fall behind by a massive amount.

There can be other, more creative ways of adjusting this (like giving 1Hs different bonuses from stats vs 2Hs, like they get more crit per point of DEX or something like that), but basically the point is that the STR/DEX scaling differences are actually a pretty minor factor in the big picture.

Other than that, i think the adjustments look amazing and I can't wait for them to go live!

TheBarrister

01-12-2013, 11:34 AM

Regarding Dark Knight
Dark Knight is in need of major help because of the fact that it is perceived as slightly weaker than WAR and SAM, and therefore by elitist logic is "useless." "Loldrk" is treated like it's lightyears behind WAR and SAM by the general English-speaking FFXI community. I'm not saying this is true in terms of the jobs' actual power, but that's how the community views DRK.

Lol major help. DRK is one of the top DD in the game with arguably the best Relic weapon, if not the best weapon.

I can understand it being a barely perceptible margin behind more pure DD like War and Sam because those jobs are built for one thing - damage alone. WAR alone has no other abilities, magic, etc. that can help them do anything except damage.

You're welcome to the marginal increase from Resolution to Ukko's Fury/Upheaval/Resolution that you believe is there if you are willing to give up Stun, Spikes, and any magic.

Then again, typical blinders on FFXI poster...

...this is the reason we have to keep playing rotate the cup with top job every few years.

saevel

01-12-2013, 11:39 AM

There can be other, more creative ways of adjusting this (like giving 1Hs different bonuses from stats vs 2Hs, like they get more crit per point of DEX or something like that), but basically the point is that the STR/DEX scaling differences are actually a pretty minor factor in the big picture

Well allowing the 15% haste from LR to apply to 1H would be a very interesting buff in and of itself. 1H also struggle to hit 20% delay floor without resorting to excessive DR which isn't as efficient as straight haste. Abilities such as soul eater also effect 1H more then 2H due to faster hit rate, of course there are some negative side effects. I'd like to see SE adjusted such that it only removes the damage it does, so at level 30 SE would take 5% HP away as damage from /DRK, at 45 it would be 4.25% HP for 5% damage. Would make SE useful for jobs like MNK, NIN, BLU, THF, DNC, ect..

We all know it's the ratio that is the problem. Specifically after level correction nerfs our damage into the ground. I would really like to see 1H have a more generous critical hit rate formula. Maybe needing dDex 20 rather then dDex 40 for any real difference to appear.

TheBarrister

01-12-2013, 11:42 AM

Really warrior is the most overpowered job. Also, the big issue with Resolution and Rag is war's access to it, not drks. Especially during mighty strikes. As for the 1 handers, they are pretty weak on high defense mobs. I know in our neo nyzul group on the boss run its like our blue mage isn't even there. However during the climb, he can dream flower all the gears, etc, pen. embrace (spelling sorry) after chariots, blank gaze the soulflayers. If he was the best DD on the boss why would any other job exist? Got to be real careful with utility jobs like dnc, blue, thf, nin, pup as they are so strong in other ways.

Yes WAR is overpowered...geez...you people need to math some things out and see the slight % that a fully pimped out job XYZ really does over a fully geared job ABC. It's not as massive as you chicken littles make it out to be. The fact that you (not "you" random cryer #1,234,987,567 that I'm quoting) cry over it all the time, is the reason why the developers have to waste time thinking about boosting 1 handed utility jobs to make up for some imagined unfairness. 1 handers had their 6 years in the spotlight. Rightly pure DD that can't steal, treasure hunt, cast ninja or blue magic, or do dance spells were buffed to make them actually do good damage with 2 handed weapons. Shocker, I know. But let's not forget our history.

Kincard

01-12-2013, 11:51 AM

TheBarrister

01-12-2013, 12:22 PM

You clearly have not done this "mathing out" you are telling other people to do, because if you had you would know that the game's mechanics by default have made it so that 1H jobs become significantly weaker than 2H jobs when fighting high level targets because of the ratio term alone.

I'm aware that 1 handed utility jobs who have functions besides damage dealing are not = to the damage of jobs who function to do just damage with 2 handed weapons. Thief was my first job and I played nothing but Thief until Treasures of Aht Urghan came out. I have a long and rich history of understanding what the top jobs have been and haven't been. Please address the actual % you are claiming the game unfairly treats one handed jobs. Then be honest and account for the utility functions. The game is pretty well balanced right where it is right now. However, if you'd simply like a new favorite Baskin Robbins flavor of the month to be the special, I can understand the jealousy.

Also my Thief can't effectively do area damage to multiple small enemies at once (in b4 aeolian edge is suggested in complete seriousness), or absorb a significant amount of a stat like some 2 hander jobs can. Every job has something unique to it without considering DPS numbers.

Whoopdeedoo. Where does this even matter? Lol2yeardoldabyssea? Are you arguing that 1H Thf can't AoE as well as 1H Blue Mage?

The problem is not that we have just a few top DD and the other DD need to be made equal. Then we'll just have more jobs competing for the same exact role. The problem, which as usual is being glossed over because you are fighting amongst yourselves, is that what utility jobs bring to the table is useless. Make that utility more useful and it simply becomes a playerbase issue.

Or just get rid of all jobs besides mages and add 1 "I do DMG" job.

Motenten

01-12-2013, 12:52 PM

Supplementing what Kincard said:

Against top-end mobs, around level 120 (well, 119 for this example), the absolute best cRatio a 1-hander can get is 1.0, while the absolute best a 2-hander can get is 1.25. That means that, even if the two jobs were functionally equivalent at the same cRatio, the 2-hander will do 25% more damage than the 1-hander, which is a pretty massive difference, particularly in content where time limits are the main opponent (eg: Legion).

On top of that is the better str->attack conversion for higher attack (and thus easier to reach capped cRatio), and dex->accuracy conversion to actually hit the mob (there can be up to a 20% difference in hit rates due to that, which, if not corrected for, is another 25% difference in damage). In situations where it's easy for a drk to hit capped cRatio, and where the sam doesn't really care because his weaponskills get a massive attack boost (and thus will almost always be at capped cRatio for most of his damage anyway), 1-handers would be struggling to even hit the 1.0 ratio. There's a pretty high likelihood that the raw difference in cRatio will be markedly higher than 25% due to the need to also load up on extra acc gear.

Simply adjusting the str:attack and dex:accuracy ratios will mostly just be a band-aid on the difference between the two weapon classes. Unfortunately Camate has confirmed that there's no actual consideration for level correction changes.

The accuracy difference is a buff and stat conversion limitation, and can be overcome (with difficulty). The cRatio difference is a hard game limit that will always leave a gulf between 2-handers and 1-handers.

Whether that's an intentional gulf is another question altogether.

ManaKing

01-12-2013, 12:56 PM

I'm very happy that /DRK might have some possibilities for NOT WAR or SAM, because those two love each other too much to cheat. On a very serious note, DRK is not powerful if you take away Ragnarok and Resolution. WAR is still powerful if you take them away. I really think you need to re-evaluate this just a little more.

Greatsword is supposed to be the main weapon for Rune Fencer but currently WAR and DRK would argue that it's their main weapon since all you see is Ragnaroks on the back of every DD that can wear it in Port Jeuno. Please do everyone a big favor and nerf Resolution by subtracting a hit from it and adding that hit to Entropy and Quietus. Scythes are terrible right now and they need to be fixed so we can weed out some of these overnight DRKs.

WAR will go back to Ukko and DRKs will go back to looking like DRKs. When Rune Fencer comes out, you can find a way for it to use Resolution better than WAR and DRK based on the merits of it's job. If everyone is playing the same couple jobs because they are blatantly better, then you have let one of the primary draws to your game fail : a real job system.

I really appreciate the augments to the magic system. It would be nice to see more mages and fewer WAR and DRKs with Ragnaroks.

Please like if you agree with me.

Falseliberty

01-12-2013, 01:37 PM

"Then be honest and account for the utility functions. The game is pretty well balanced right where it is right now."

WUT?..............

Arciel

01-12-2013, 02:02 PM

quite excited by the elemental magic overhaul. it acknowledges how magic damage has fallen behind both in terms of power and speed.
and because these changes are universal down to level 1, it also acknowledges and partially addresses that magic in battle is sorely outpaced by melee at the moment.

this being a key concern, I'm hopeful that Matsui will cover other job areas that require attention in the correct manner.

as for the DRK thing, i like that they're adjusting other jobs up instead of directly nerfing DRK by tweaking the ability and allowing for more potential SJ options.

Tassidaru

01-12-2013, 02:35 PM

I think half of the argument for more merit ws is based from the fact that most of the mws are vastly superior to the 300 skill/mythic/quested ws. As a Sam and Blu i can say that while i may be able to do without Requescat (though the utility value is insane) i cannot lose Shoha...the difference being while 90% of the time Req is only a minor improvement in comparison to San.blade and Savage blade and Vorpal blade(outside of aby), shoha is massively beyond gekko rana and kasha, the ranges being roughly 1.5k-2.5k vs 3k-5k...i bet that if the dev team would adjust the quested and mythic ws to close the gap, not entirely perhaps but close, that the demand for moar merit ws slots would fade to a minor rumble.

Traxus

01-12-2013, 02:38 PM

Please consider updating blue magic nuke efficiency in a similar fashion to what's happening to elemental magic. I'm not saying it should be on par with blm or sch, but it should retain the same relative nuking potential it has to them now.

Also, why are you keeping weapon skill merit caps in the game at all? What is the point? The proposed change is certainly better than what we have now, but I still don't see the purpose in limiting them in any fashion, same thing with combat/magic skill merits. Why are some of my jobs forcefully hindered by the merits I have for others? Why can't I pick up weapon skills like shattersoul for mage jobs, apex arrow for sam, etc. for fun, without sacrificing power on more important weapon skills? Why can't I merit summoning magic skill without dropping something more valuable?

What's the purpose of penalizing fun, and reducing replay value of the game with these caps?

Smokenttp

01-12-2013, 03:16 PM

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons

Good to see that just dont make a merit adjustment or ability make it a full time adjustment.

Regarding Dark Knight
Interresting one for sub jobs, will not change drk too much tough, and i agreed that scythes ws´s need a boost overall

Regarding Defense

More people should be comenting on this one, i agree that defense should play a bigger role even with enemies buffs (crawlers and crabs would be alot toughter overall), or berserk like debuffs afterall you can manually take then off, and depending on level will have the options to dispell enemies... also this will pretty much affect damage overall indirectly affecting spells like dia and bio so would change alot in terms of damage , in my opinion an welcome change.

Merit Point Weapon Skills
looks interresting but probably should raise the points abit so we can take at least 3 ws to full charge and chose some other ones "for fun"

Elemental Magic

Awesome overall , needs to affect Gas, Jas and AMs as well.

Regarding Content

Overall welcome changes
---

Also Camate mind sending a message to dev team? even tough low (1-30) - mid(31-60) level is pretty much non-existent nowadays do they plan to do some balancing to the jobs in those levels? i understand that those would need to wait the defense adjustment (if they go along with it) the enfeebling and elemental magic adjustments and most importantly the enmity adjustment, but i would like to see adjustments to jobs in those levels as well.

SpankWustler

01-12-2013, 06:39 PM

They are specifically talking about the fact that stats such as DEX and STR affect two-handed weapons more than single-handed weapons, and how they would like to make it so there are more merits to wielding single-handed weapons.
The term "補正" can be translated as "correction" in some cases, but in this context it is the term known as "modifier."

This is what I expected, but still a let-down.

I was hoping the change would be more or less opposite this: the extra bonuses from STR and DEX would remain unique to two-handed weapons but all main-hand weapons would receive roughly the same cRatio (Attack/Defense ratio) cap somehow. Or, maybe just all melee weapons since so many jobs Dual Wield naturally now.

This would keep an across the board advantage for two-handed weapons while making it difficult, but possible, for one-handed weapons to close the huge gap in damage that is present in any situation involving very high level monsters. In that specific situation, a change to the bonuses from STR and DEX for one-handed weapons will just make it considerably easier to hit the lower cap due to fewer concerns about accuracy along with ~40 Attack itself but do little to change the gaping gap that gapes once that lower cap is hit.

Another bonus is that there would be relatively little change to the more laid-back content at which the typical job that uses one-handed weapon and has various (often dubious) utility abilities excels. Those are situations that don't often involve Attack buffs from other players, often involve lower level monsters, or both; this makes cRatio less likely to be capped, the .25 difference less noticeable as the difference is likely to be ~2-2.25 rather than ~1-1.25 when it is capped, or some mixture of the two varying from monster to monster.

Come on, let this one slide. You can make up the difference in sense-making later by putting Puppetmaster on all the premier sets of mage equipment when Seekers of Adoulin is introduced, if you want.

Mindi

01-12-2013, 06:43 PM

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons

[...]
For example, we are currently looking into the possibility of adding some form of merit that would enhance the modifiers for the single-handed weapon main weapon slot.

please dont only enhance the main weapon slot, whatever buff you do should also effect the Sub weapon when dual wielding.

Merit Point Weapon Skills

[...]
Instead of adjusting the cap value, we are currently looking into adjusting the modifier values so that these weapon skills can be used with a single merit point.

We are envisioning to make it so 1 merit point will yield a 65% status modifier, and each point afterwards will grant an addition 5% for a maximum of 85% (no changes to the max value).

If this is your solution to the Merit-WS request then you can save your time and dont change it at all. This makes absolute NO SENSE to change it like this. Its either Full Merited, or nothing, even if you change the minimum status Modifier, it will still be all or nothing. Raise the amount of Merit Weapon skills we can fully merit (like 5 5/5 WS's should be atleast a start if you dont want completly uncap it) So many many many players have all jobs 99, have EVERY SINGLE Merit point they could get.. they have nothing left to do with exp.. give them somethng to spend them on.. like more merit WS's and dont come here with this useless solution of just making 1/5 less gimp.

5/5 Merits in a WS is allways the goal, aslong as 5/5 does higher dmg then 1/5. This wont change.

Welp

01-12-2013, 06:50 PM

Kincard

01-12-2013, 07:53 PM

I'm aware that 1 handed utility jobs who have functions besides damage dealing are not = to the damage of jobs who function to do just damage with 2 handed weapons.

You don't seem to understand that I was saying that every single job has something unique to it even if you ignore damage dealing. A warrior has a powerful way of quickly doing area damage (Fell cleave + Retaliation) and variability in weapons. A dark knight can absorb. A dragoon can do a number of things with their wyvern. This utility you speak of isn't limited to the light jobs only.

Please address the actual % you are claiming the game unfairly treats one handed jobs.

As Motenten pointed out, against a high level target, the way the calculations in the game work already by default cap a one-hander job to 25% less damage than a 2 hander job. When you factor in the whole "one handers can't cap acc/atk as easily" bit, the gap becomes even wider. I wouldn't be surprised if properly buffed two-hander jobs were doing at least 50% more damage than a one-hander job.

what utility jobs bring to the table is useless. Make that utility more useful and it simply becomes a playerbase issue

Your argument is that utility makes up for gaps in damage. I am here to tell you that aside from 2 handers providing utility of their own, this is not true. It doesn't matter what "utility" my blue mage brings, it's not going to make up for the fact that a 2 hander can, by default, do 25% more damage than I can, and reach this max much easier.

Currently the only "utility" from light jobs people care about at all is Treasure Hunter, and that is a really forced and idiotic system (Make all drop rates really low so people are encouraged to bring THF to make drop rates not abyssmal). Even if they fixed things like Tourbillion, or Yurin/Aisha, or Sambas, one-handers will still not hold any merit versus high level targets because the gap is simply far too large.

This doesn't mean we don't care about utility, but fixing it isn't going to solve anyting like you are implying it would.

tl;dr it doesn't matter how much they adjust utility, one handers will still be a waste of a slot.

Its either Full Merited, or nothing

nope

Sasaraixx

01-12-2013, 07:58 PM

Camate,

Thank you for passing on the information and for the clarification. I am really happy to see these plans are being considered. As a career mage, I've always wished that the elements were more balanced. I'd be ecstatic if this idea could be extended one step further and have elemental weaknesses play a role in damage calculations. It should be minor, but enough to encourage all mages to target an enemies weakness if they have one and could also help close the gap between melee and magic. This would also apply to elemental WS as well.

(As an aside, I've been using Shantotto in Dissidia 012 quite a lot recently. I remember thinking the other day how nice it was that each of the elements she uses in battle has its own strategic value and how fun it would be if that were the case in FFXI. Great timing! (*^_^) )

I would add that I wish there was mention of the enmity adjustments that were supposed to be under consideration a long time ago. There are 3 jobs that have abilities/spells tied to this mechanic and they would see a much needed boost if those abilities actually had strategic value. I think many of us would like to know what the dev team is thinking in regards to this.

And we have seen the teams willingness to address jobs/abilities that are too powerful (Embrava, Perfect Defense, now DRK). It would also be nice if we could also see a detailed response about those jobs lagging behind. I don't really consider myself a RDM, but even I am starting to wonder what the team is thinking.

saevel

01-12-2013, 09:24 PM

Demon6324236

01-12-2013, 09:52 PM

Regarding Content

To start off, we are looking into adjustments for new Nyzul, Legion, Odin's Chamber II, Voidwatch (up to Provenance Watcher), Salvage, and in the event there is further necessity, new Salvage as well.

Below is what we are looking into for adjustments.

New Nyzul

Adjustments to the warp range of floors

Legion

Adjustments to monster levels
Adjustments to attack power and defense

Odin's Chamber II

Adjustments to monster levels

Voidwatch

Expand the usage range of the void clusters to Provenance (Provenance Watcher)

Salvage

Re-examine the drop rate of level 35 equipment
Make a change so that monsters other than the NMs that spawn from ramparts in Bhaflau Remnants drop the same equipment

Walk of Echoes

Adjustments to monster levels
Remove EX status from each type of coin
Add sacks that contain multiple Devious Die and Liminal Residue

Past this, we will continue to make adjustments as necessary, and we will be making it so strategy and play style variations can be developed instead of having to win with a huge amount of fire power in a short amount of time.Since this part has been mostly left alone by people it seems, I would like to give my input on it.

The change to Nyzul is good, however it seems like it stays true to the most annoying thing about the event itself. Adjusting the range of floor warps, this could either be increasing or decreasing it, for now I assume it will be increased. The problem with this is that currently the most annoying thing about the event is the amount of luck needed to win. By increasing the range that you can jump, say for example, from 2~11 up to 2~15 it is making it possible for you to get higher numbers, and improving the average, however a massive luck factor remains. So while this is an improvement, I would like to see something changed that takes some of the luck out of the event itself if possible.

Legion changes sound nice, I personally have not done much of it, however I think part of the problem with the event is also the most recently added mob families such as Gallu and Naraka have some very overpowering special attacks, which also need to be looked into. For example, Oblivion's Mantle, strong damage, weakness, and 10-count doom, from a single attack, seems fairly unbalanced. This is not only effecting Legion, but it is part of the problem with the event I believe because unlike in Voidwatch, which is where you encounter them the most, you have no real shield against them besides the soon to be nerfed Perfect Defense.

Voidwatch, well, allowing clusters to be used on Provenance means that a lot more people will be getting the gear they want from that event, seeing as the drop rates on his gear are not all to terrible so far as I know, and shout groups will be able to clear the fight much more easily. However, this is not the adjustment most people are looking for in VW, while this will make many people happy, we still wait to hear something about a change to drop rates or how to obtain them. Sometime recently we heard that our wonderful new producer likes point systems, and I would not be surprised if I was not the only one hoping that he will include one here. This post does not mention it, but I would like to know if there are any plans of something such as that for the future of Voidwatch. Many people have complained since its introduction into the game about drop rates and the massive luck involved in even the higher drop rate items. People have killed these monsters hundreds of times without seeing their rewards drop, can we please get some form of update that will change this very annoying and angering system?

Salvage is a great change, it will help people get both the new and old gear, and will hopefully make the event much more popular and worth doing. Not sure that there is much else to say on this subject other than thank you, and even though it took a very long time for these changes to be announced that they are being planed on, I think it is still a great thing to be doing.

While I think the changes to Walk of Echoes will not change most peoples minds about making the Trials of Magian versions of Emp weapons, I do think it is a good idea to make these changes as it will hope those who do want to make them or have been in the process of it. One of my primary hopes about this however is that perhaps we will not have to see only pet jobs able to fight in the event, as I know for now it seems as though if you are not a SMN, PUP, or BST, then you are effectively worthless in the battle.

Since we have had a few questions directly answered in this thread it seems, I would like to ask one or two myself if possible. Is there any chance we will be seeing a point system in Voidwatch sometime before the release of Seekers, and if so, how might it work? I recall talk of Crystal Petrifacts being used for something else when the Chocobo Blinker nerf was done, and the ability to trade them for cruor was held back, around the same time is when we heard that we may be seeing more point system like functions in the game. So I would also like to know if they might be involved in something like that, or what the current plans are for Crystal Petrifacts outside of Provenance.

Toadie-Odie

01-12-2013, 11:03 PM

[...]

Voidwatch, well, allowing clusters to be used on Provenance means that a lot more people will be getting the gear they want from that event, seeing as the drop rates on his gear are not all to terrible so far as I know, and shout groups will be able to clear the fight much more easily. However, this is not the adjustment most people are looking for in VW, while this will make many people happy, we still wait to hear something about a change to drop rates or how to obtain them. Sometime recently we heard that our wonderful new producer likes point systems, and I would not be surprised if I was not the only one hoping that he will include one here. This post does not mention it, but I would like to know if there are any plans of something such as that for the future of Voidwatch. Many people have complained since its introduction into the game about drop rates and the massive luck involved in even the higher drop rate items. People have killed these monsters hundreds of times without seeing their rewards drop, can we please get some form of update that will change this very annoying and angering system?

[...]

Since we have had a few questions directly answered in this thread it seems, I would like to ask one or two myself if possible. Is there any chance we will be seeing a point system in Voidwatch sometime before the release of Seekers, and if so, how might it work? I recall talk of Crystal Petrifacts being used for something else when the Chocobo Blinker nerf was done, and the ability to trade them for cruor was held back, around the same time is when we heard that we may be seeing more point system like functions in the game. So I would also like to know if they might be involved in something like that, or what the current plans are for Crystal Petrifacts outside of Provenance.

I share the same questions. I gave up on VoidWatch when my fellows became increasingly upset with the drop system. While I can play hardcore, I would much rather chill, relax, and have fun. Going to an event that quickly beomes a rant-fest is not fun. Even the hardcore side of me is asking "what is the point?"

I enjoy things that are challenging but the prize should be equal to that of the challenge. A bazillion logs that I can't use is not an equivalent exchange for my effort and time to fight any Notorious Monster.

Kincard

01-12-2013, 11:32 PM

I think the changes to Walk of Echoes will not change most peoples minds about making the Trials of Magian versions of Emp weapons

This is especially true because this is coming alongside a significant change to the availability of merit WSs to our secondary/tertiary jobs. If they want people to be enticed to spend a significant amount of time and/or gil to obtain WoE weapons, they need to either strengthen those weapons, or greatly reduce the dice/residue required so the reward seems good for the effort.

TheBarrister

01-12-2013, 11:50 PM

If people are going to comments on the relative damage hierarchy, at least understand why it is the way it is. Otherwise your just muddying up the waters even further and have become counter productive.

Stop making sense now. If my Thief or Dancer or <insert other 1H job here> can't do at least 90% of the damage as a 2H then I'll be stuck at soloing Dynamis better, evading better, curing myself better, using magic in a pinch better, ad nauseum.

TheBarrister

01-12-2013, 11:51 PM

This is especially true because this is coming alongside a significant change to the availability of merit WSs to our secondary/tertiary jobs. If they want people to be enticed to spend a significant amount of time and/or gil to obtain WoE weapons, they need to either strengthen those weapons, or greatly reduce the dice/residue required so the reward seems good for the effort.

A big enticement for me to do Walk of Echoes would be for it to drop heavy metal pouches.

Also why can't crystal petrifacts be traded in for voidstones, or something worthwhile like 1 gil or higher?

Demon6324236

01-12-2013, 11:59 PM

Also why can't crystal petrifacts be traded in for voidstones, or something worthwhile like 1 gil or higher?Petrifacts --> Voidstones would create an infinite cycle that would result in unlimited stones, if that were to happen, the stone system itself would become pointless in every way. Conversion to gil is a bad idea because of the reason that, like blinkers, it would create gil from nothing, harming the economy.

Siiri

01-13-2013, 12:00 AM

Your argument is that utility makes up for gaps in damage. I am here to tell you that aside from 2 handers providing utility of their own, this is not true. It doesn't matter what "utility" my blue mage brings, it's not going to make up for the fact that a 2 hander can, by default, do 25% more damage than I can, and reach this max much easier.

nope

Blue for example is almost overpowered with utility. How many sleeps they have? How many are aoe? How many stuns? How many heals? Do they have aoe erase? Why yes they do. Can they self skillchain easily? Can they do heavy aoe damage? Are they arguably the strongest job in low man content or not? IF blue mage is anywhere close to 2 handed DD on High end content it would be horribly "unbalanced." You think people don't care about this utility? You can't throw a byne bill anywhere in game without it hitting one of the hundreds of blues running around. That is one job that never needs an upgrade.

Demon6324236

01-13-2013, 12:02 AM

A big enticement for me to do Walk of Echoes would be for it to drop heavy metal pouches.I like the idea of plates being added to lower fluxes, perhaps add pouches to 12~15, and Cinder/Dross to 15.

ManaKing

01-13-2013, 01:24 AM

Holy sh!t. I've never been for a rate down button on this forum but right now I'm extremely close. Are people still demanding nerfs to WAR/DRK resolution out of spite instead of the appropriate buffs to Entropy / Upheaval / MT?

Nerfing Res / Rag won't change a damn thing. DRK's use it because Scyth sucks right now, haste gear is so easy to acquire that Apoc's lost much of it's usefulness in pure damage. Still rocks for DRK PDT tanking though. WAR's switch between Ukko / Res depending on their target. Rag is just more convenient to acquire. You can spam dyna every day for the currency and build it vs Ukko requiring you to farm Abyssea's NMs, one of which is an annoying sh!t to build pop sets for.

The whole reason you see WAR + DRK as the top DD's is due to how high their damage potential can be buffed to. There is nothing that throwing more buffs onto them can't fix, vs SAM and DRG which have natural limitations imposed on them. DRG must chose between /WAR and /SAM, and SAM's GKT smacks into a damage ceiling which nothing can be done about (low total fTP on Shoha and Fudo). 1H all suck in situations when your fighting high level targets for the reasons Moten already stated. Their actually competitive when fighting ~7 LCF targets though or when everyone is underbuffed (low man / small man fights).

If people are going to comments on the relative damage hierarchy, at least understand why it is the way it is. Otherwise your just muddying up the waters even further and have become counter productive.

-=Edit=-

SAM and DRG do have a method of overcoming their systematic limits. Their respective mythics are world shaking awesomeness. Being mythics their incredibly rare and often left out of the damage comparison. A Ryunohige DRG and Kogarasumaru SAM are on equal footing as a Rag / Ukon DRK / WAR. Conqueror is also a pretty epic weapon though Upheaval could use some adjusting.

Resolution is still too good compared to everything else. You already said that relics are easier to make than other alternatives, much less OaT Greatswords. Make a crappy system where the best is also the easiest and all of a sudden there are a ton of 'the best' overnight. Resolution doesn't need to be what it is for this game to still be good. It would just require jobs to go back to working on more difficult content.

Scythes do most certainly need a buff. Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy are all junk compared to similar WS. Insurgency is the reason that DRK mythic is so bad. Quietus is an amazing LOOKING WS, but that is it. Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK. Anything you would use a Scythe for could be done better with a Greatsword at this point. Even DRK/THF for best Epeen/screenshot numbers goes to Torcleaver instead of Spiral Hell.

Ragnarok is the highest DPS Weapon in the game and has the best WS in the game as far as output goes. Buffed or unbuffed, Resolution beats Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency without trying. Scythes are the loser in all situations involving DPS to greatswords and their WSs. There is no reason to use Scythes anymore. They need to buff Scythes, give DRKs reasons to need MP, and take Resolution down a peg.

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

-------

DRG just needs to have Gungir's additional affect snipped off or modified to work with instead of against Angon so that their job can function properly. SAM is good, just not great and SAM are used to being great. Both Mythics make both jobs damage Juggernauts because of the way both jobs work with WSing. At least with SAM, the Masamune is easy to make and plays well with Tachi: Shoha. Gungir and Rhongomiant are both junk and everyone knows it that actually plays.

saevel

01-13-2013, 02:01 AM

Resolution is still too good compared to everything else. You already said that relics are easier to make than other alternatives, much less OaT Greatswords. Make a crappy system where the best is also the easiest and all of a sudden there are a ton of 'the best' overnight. Resolution doesn't need to be what it is for this game to still be good. It would just require jobs to go back to working on more difficult content.

Scythes do most certainly need a buff. Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy are all junk compared to similar WS. Insurgency is the reason that DRK mythic is so bad. Quietus is an amazing LOOKING WS, but that is it. Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK. Anything you would use a Scythe for could be done better with a Greatsword at this point. Even DRK/THF for best Epeen/screenshot numbers goes to Torcleaver instead of Spiral Hell.

Ragnarok is the highest DPS Weapon in the game and has the best WS in the game as far as output goes. Buffed or unbuffed, Resolution beats Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency without trying. Scythes are the loser in all situations involving DPS to greatswords and their WSs. There is no reason to use Scythes anymore. They need to buff Scythes, give DRKs reasons to need MP, and take Resolution down a peg.

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

-------

DRG just needs to have Gungir's additional affect snipped off or modified to work with instead of against Angon so that their job can function properly. SAM is good, just not great and SAM are used to being great. Both Mythics make both jobs damage Juggernauts because of the way both jobs work with WSing. At least with SAM, the Masamune is easy to make and plays well with Tachi: Shoha. Gungir and Rhongomiant are both junk and everyone knows it that actually plays.

Except you weren't talking about buffing Scyth / ect. You were talking about Nerfing Rag / Resolution to force WAR's to use GAXE and to force DRK's to use Scyth. Nerfing Res and DRK will still use Rag, Scyth sucks that much. Buff Scyth and there is a chance that it would be viable. Plus Resolution has an 8% attack penalty, that becomes VERY noticeable when your not buffed. And as I said before, the whole reason we use WAR + DRK is because we can keep throwing more buffs on them to ensure every combat variable is capped out. It becomes a game of which combination of job + weapon has the highest possible cap on their variables.

As I said above, spouting sh!t without knowing the mechanics behind the decisions of the player base has you doing nothing but mudding up the waters.

Siiri

01-13-2013, 02:14 AM

For those who do pure math I believe mythic SAM is actually the most overpowered job. Any nerf to resolution would also have to include a nerf to Shoha in the interest of fairness.

Also tp bonus SAM is every bit as powerful as OAT GS Drk

Zhronne

01-13-2013, 02:31 AM

My personal opinion on Matsui-san ideas

1-handed modifiers
Currently 2handed weapons have a 1:0,75 conversion rate from stats (STR>Attack, DEX>Accuracy etc), while 1-handed weapons have 1:0,5
I welcome any kind of change to 1-handed weapons jobs, altough I'm a bit unsure if this could be the right solution.
Let's go back in time a bit and remember why the ration was changed. Yes, long time ago 2handed weapons had 1:0,5 ratio too. It was changed mainly in the attempt to make some jobs use the weapons they were originally meant to use, for example Warrior using Great Axe. Initially it was changed to 1:1, and then to 1:0,75 after a while.
It took a while to the player base to get used to it, but it sorta worked.
2handed jobs were mostly preferred to 1 handed jobs because of the damage tier of their weapons, because of their higher attack, because of their higher accuracy, because they were giving the enemy less TP. (this is another very important mechanism of FFXI that should be addressed. Some times some monsters are easier if fought with less people than more, and this is kinda ridiculous if you ask me)

Changing the modifier ratio for 1handed weapon users (only for the main weapon and not offhand?) brings the risk of making some 1handed weapons jobs too strong, hence requiring furhter nerfs after the change. People hate nerfs, if you think something is gonna be too powerful and require a nerf after, just don't do it.

Aren't there really any other solutions? Some job trait that only activates when you use 1 handed weapons and that gives some bonus of some sort?

Merit Points weapon skills
Sorry but the suggested change won't make anybody happy and won't change a thing.
We currently have two main kind of users we can think of
1) "Easy" players
2) "Hardcore" players

The first category doesn't really care much about being best at anything, they just enjoy the game no matter what. This category of players already makes use of 1/5 upgrades weapon skills, they are not complaining about the current situation, changing it won't bring any effect on this category.

The second category is made by people who really want to excel at things. If they do something, they want it to be the best possible. If they take a weapon skill, they want it to be the best.
Making it 65% with 1/5 won't be enough, because it still won't be as good as it can possibly be. They'll still want to get 5/5 and they'll still complain they can't do it for more than 3 weapon skills.

Really Mr. Matsui, I don't see why you and your team are being so adamant in not allowing a merit cap increase.
People are running out of jobs to experience, they are running out of things to merit. Giving them more stuff to "buy" with merits would only increase the value of merit points, the value of getting them, and would keep the cycle on.
If things go on like this soon there won't be any player left who still look for experience points, leaving those who do in a mess because they won't be able to find a group to do experience points with.

I really don't see what's the point in limiting the Weapon Skills category.
Please, if you think there is a good reason explain it to us, maybe I will agree with you after reading it.
Thank you.

Elemental Magic Adjustments
I have mixed feelings about these changes.
Some of the things you proposed look very good, but having different element spells require different stats will only make it worse.
Compared to other games FFXI mechanisms are already particularly complicated.
If you do that change people will need different sets, different gear for each different element.
A set to nuke for earth spell, a set to nuke for fire spell, a set to nuke for thunder spells.
It would be a mess, especially with our limited inventories.
At the moment, altough there are some specific equipments (elemental obis, staves etc) you want the same stats for the same spell. Making you require to focus on, say, intellect for earth and then, say, Mab for Thunder, would only make things even more complicated than they already are.
Plese, don't do that.

ManaKing

01-13-2013, 02:39 AM

Except you weren't talking about buffing Scyth / ect. You were talking about Nerfing Rag / Resolution to force WAR's to use GAXE and to force DRK's to use Scyth. Nerfing Res and DRK will still use Rag, Scyth sucks that much. Buff Scyth and there is a chance that it would be viable.

As I said above, spouting sh!t without knowing the mechanics behind the decisions of the player base has you doing nothing but mudding up the waters.

Really? because my first post about this subject said take a hit off of resolution and add it to Entropy and Quietus. Buff Scythes, nerf greatsword was in my second post. I play DRK with a Scythe or Dual Wielding 1H axes which is why I don't play DRK anymore. It's not my job anymore. It doesn't look like my old job. And I have no interest in going back to it with a greatsword and still no good magic. Then I would just be WAR-1 or maybe WAR-0.5.

Please just cuss if you are going to cuss and stop thinking everyone is an idiot. It makes you look really foolish some days when we all know you aren't an idiot.

I'm most interested in whether the Haste on LR is going to be just for 2H or for everyone. If it's for everyone, I can see a lot of jobs using /DRK if there is 15% Haste along with 15% attack up and defense down, compared to 25% up and down from berserk. This might be really nice considering that losing Defense might actually become a problem soon. MNK/DRK, BLU/DRK, DNC/DRK I can see becoming really popular because they all have the ability to heal themselves in the event that they use Soul Eater for WSs and SCs. Any job with native dual wield will probably look hard at /DRK.

RDM will as usual come out behind because they don't have native dual wield. BLU/DRK would destroy RDM/Anything for DPS if they are given an additional 15% Haste with LR, Attack Traits, and SE. If for some reason RDM was given Dual Wield 3 natively and could RDM/DRK under the same conditions, I would probably never stop playing this game. $$$ and such until they shut down the servers.

DRK itself almost comes out ahead because they have the option of Abyss Sollerets to recoup some of their lost Defense from LR. So in the case that they have to be defensive, they can keep their offense as high as WAR, but possibly have higher Defense.

Motenten

01-13-2013, 03:02 AM

Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK.

Actually, that's an interesting little aside. With the magic changes, the cast times on T1-T3 nukes went down considerably. T1 are near-instant; T2 are the same speed as :ni ninjutsu; T3 are as fast as Thunder is now. Plus they're all significantly more MP efficient, and dInt (fun with Absorb-Int) has a much greater impact. Is this a step towards making drk spellcasting more useful?

Playing around with it, it looks like a Stone III/Water III would take about as long to cast as a 50%-60% hasted scythe swing (considering from the scythe perspective due to Entropy; doesn't change that scythe needs improvements to really be a valid choice vs greatsword). Would have damage in the 300-400 range with around 30-60 dInt; with something in the range of 50 MAB range from gear, 450-600 total damage (~1.5x to 2x a normal swing). The MP cost isn't that bad, at 64-75 MP, and it would return about 10 TP from Occult Acumen.

Not enough to decidedly replace normal melee, but enough that I could see it being at least marginally useful, particularly in unbuffed situations. Also, at the bottom end with T1s, could a very fast-casting spell that gives back a couple TP be useful in making an easy improvement to any x-hit build?

Would need a more experienced drk to make a better evaluation, though.

ManaKing

01-13-2013, 03:05 AM

You still believe Scythe WSs are in need of buffing because they are generally out performed by almost every other 2H weapon though?

Is that a correct assumption?

Godofgods

01-13-2013, 04:02 AM

hell.. +1 just for the detailed post lol

saevel

01-13-2013, 04:26 AM

Really? because my first post about this subject said take a hit off of resolution and add it to Entropy and Quietus

And thus you are advocating nerfing Resolution right out the gate. It's fueled by pure spite due to the number of Wagnaroks running around.

Scyth WS's have sucked for a long time. Prior to Resolution Great Sword WS's sucked even more then Scyth did and thus DRK's everyone used Scyth. The previous "best" Scyth WS was guillotine, 4 hits with first hit being 0.875 for a total of 3.875 fTP. The mods were 25% STR, 25% MND, ohh and it can silence the target that will shortly die anyway. Quietus is only marginally better then Guilly was, depending on gear setup. For Great swords it was Spinning Slash, 2.5 fTP, 30% STR 30% INT and 50% attack bonus. This made SS decent on high level targets if the DRK wasn't getting buffed and could put out big numbers as /THF. For pure spam Guilly beat it out easily and SH is a better SA 300TP WS anyway (back when we did that). Torcleaver was a big boost for GSWD, 4.75 fTP @60% VIT.

Now compare this to Great Axe, Raging Rush 3 hits (3.0 fTP) @35% STR WSC with a 15/30/50 crit rate. RR easily beats out anything Scyth / GSWD had during that era, for 300TP SAWS you had Steel Cyclone. Then Ukon was created and the awesomeness that was UF was unleashed. 2 hit 3.0 fTP 60% STR 20/35/55 Crit WS on a job that also received CAB and additional gear that further enhances their crit damage. Tachi Gekko was modified many times due to SE over buffing it at one point in time. Y/G/K respond to +TP very favorably and resulted in Gekko being spammed @200 with a Hagun so I'll list it's 100 and 200 stats. @100 1.5625 75% STR WSC +100% attack bonus, @200 1.875 fTP, @300 2.5. This created a WS that would be extremely consistent even when under-buffed, Y/G/K was a WS you threw as much STR at as possible due to you always being instantly capped on Attack. Then SE created Fudo, 3.75 fTP 60% STR, one hit WS which covered all the situations that Y/G/K wouldn't be ideal in (being super buffed) by having a much larger total fTP.

DRG used Penta, 5-hit 5.0 fTP 20% STR 20% DEX, also had Skewer for 3-hit 3.0 fTP critical hit WS 35% STR mod and finally Drakesbane for a four hit 4.0 fTP 50% STR critical hit WS that had a 18.7% attack penalty.

Now with these as the background it's pretty easy to see how GS / Scyth were stupidly weak. DRK's real weapons were never Scyth / Great Sword, they were Club / Dagger / Sword depending on how rich / lucky you were. The only exception to this was if you had an Apoc and relics were stupidly hard / expensive to make back then. Apoc was good due to the +10% gear haste from the AM effect, it allowed the DRK to cap equip haste easily, the Runic Great Axe did this also and was much cheaper to acquire.

Now enter in the merit WS's which evened things out. Shoha is just a super Gekko, attack bonus and all. Stardiver is powerful and replaces Drakes / Penta as the spam WS of choice. Upheavel is powerful yet is overshadowed by the awesomeness that is UF. SE was smoking something when they made Entropy, exact same stats as Stardiver but use's INT instead thus forcing Scyth DRK's to make compromises in their WS gear selection (no double dipping for fSTR / attack). Then we have Resolution which changed the single worst category of weapons amongst DD's into something that's actually competitive.

The only reason you see so many Wagnaroks is that you can farm it entirely solo doing an every day activity and buy the final set of marrows. Ukon's require you to build Glavoid / Itzapotle / Orthrus pop sets and rely on /sh or other people to help you build it. Then you have to deal with the insanely stupid task of getting 1500 HMPs, then the final rift item upgrade. SAM / DRG have it worse in that their super game crushing weapon lies behind a 30,000 alexandrite wall.

So now we have
99 Ukon (WAR) = 99 Rag (WAR/DRK) = 99 Kogarasumaru (SAM) = 99 Ryunohige (DRG)
Right behind those is 99 Masamune / Amano, 99 Apoc and 99 Gugnir with 99 Bravura. Though 99 Bravura gets special mention, it's AM is -20% DT which could be handy for a WAR pseudo tanking big nasties.

I don't know how 99 Liberator and 99 Conqueror stack up to those, haven't seen the math wizardry behind them.

Suddenly that perceived "OMG WAGNAROKS ARE RUINING THE GAME" is shown to be a bunch of bovine scatology. Its no more powerful then any of the other super weapon combos. The only thing different is that it's much more convenient to build then the rest, it's the easiest and thus becomes the most popular. So in nerfing Res / Rag combo your only accomplishment is to relegate DRK back into abyssea obscurance. By trying to nerf / buff Res / Rag for Scyth you only exchange one super weapon for another, possibly making it so DRK would need a mythic like SAM / DRG and recreating Warrior Fantasy from Abyssea.

You still believe Scythe WSs are in need of buffing because they are generally out performed by almost every other 2H weapon though?

Demanding nerfs without actually knowing the mechanics behind what your demanding is rather foolish. Your not actually accomplishing your stating goal (making scyths more competitive) while doing severe harm to the existing player base. You sure you didn't work for Tanaka previously? And how the hell will nerfing Reso / Rag make Scyth any better in the big picture? WAR's can still use Ukkon, DRG's still get DB/SD, and SAM's still have Fudo / Shoha.

Now what you really should be asking for is Scyth WS's to be buffed in general. Either change Entropy to 100% STR so that it at least becomes competitive, or keep it 100% INT and add a hit. Leave Rag / Reso combo as is for those who went that path. Yet somehow I think your desire to punish what you perceive as a bandwagon crowd won't allow you to understand that.

saevel

01-13-2013, 04:36 AM

I play DRK with a Scythe or Dual Wielding 1H axes which is why I don't play DRK anymore.

Had to reread that last part .... which explains your complete and utter lack of understanding of game mechanics. Just wanted to be clear that you would prefer DRK's resort to axe's over using GSWD?

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah like I originally thought, your just spewing vitriol.

Hayward

01-13-2013, 04:38 AM

Overall, I like where this is going. 1-handed weapons, contrary to the opinions of some, do need to have their damage output punched up to close the gap with 2-handers. Paladins have a difficult enough time keeping a monster's attention without having to sacrifice their shield in order to do some damage. Daggers really need this because of the lackluster nature of the latest Weapon Skills--yes, Extenterator has a secondary use but the damage doesn't do much now to justify more than 1 merit. I can't say for certain if DNCs would benefit as much as THFs but it certainly can't do anything but help.

On Dark Knight, the job is powerful enough at this point with Great Swords--Resolution is a beast past 60% STR. Scythes still need some fixes, though, starting with the delay and Weapon Skills. Splitting the Haste distribution between Last Resort and Desperate Blows is pretty slick and makes RDM/DRK an appealing fighting support job.

The merit WS changes are reasonable, though I see nothing wrong with raising the cap slightly in tandem with this. As is, it takes 3 levels for a WS to become even serviceable (save for Tachi: Shoha at one extreme and Blade: Shun at the other). This goes some distance to address the issue of distribution of merits to each WS. I guess Ruinator's back on the radar for BST.

Prothscar

01-13-2013, 04:43 AM

Changing the modifier ratio for 1handed weapon users (only for the main weapon and not offhand?) brings the risk of making some 1handed weapons jobs too strong, hence requiring furhter nerfs after the change. People hate nerfs, if you think something is gonna be too powerful and require a nerf after, just don't do it.

OH NO 20 EXTRA ACC FOR ONE OF MY TWO HANDS DDDDDDDDDDDDD:

no but srsly, the change is minute. don't worry about it.

tyrantsyn

01-13-2013, 06:24 AM

Think it's going to take a little more than 15% haste to go /drk over /sam. Offensive tool's would be threw the roof of course. But DRK has crap past weapon bash for defense option. And atleast with /sam segian and Third eye are an option.

I like the Fact there trying to mix thing's up by making DRK a viable sub. I'm kind of puzzled tho for all that extra damage output available how were suppose to stay alive. As a WAR/DRK with berserk and Last resort up you'd have a 40% defensive drop. Talk about a glass cannon.

Yenecol

01-13-2013, 06:38 AM

It doesn't really work that way pal. It's all or bust on these weapon skills. Quit being D-bags and trolling us with this crap. Allow us to fully merit them all. Anything less than 5/5 merits is more or less worthless.

WTF is wrong with you guys? Why do you always have to find a weird annoying roundabout way to implement things? Why can't you ever just do what makes sense? I promise you that the world will not explode just because for once you did Exactly what the people wanted.This is the best post I have ever read on these forums. I agree 100%. 5/5 or no one will want them anyway!

Kincard

01-13-2013, 06:45 AM

If you think that the merit weapon skills are not really good in their current form at 4/5 merits (which is what 1/5 merits will essentially give you post-patch), then you are probably not as familiar with the game mechanics you think you are.

Alhanelem

01-13-2013, 06:50 AM

This is the best post I have ever read on these forums. I agree 100%. 5/5 or no one will want them anyway!
Foolhardy post. With the changes they are proposing, the difference between 3/5 ~ 4/5 and 5/5 is almost negligible. This change also makes the WS when initially unlocked a lot less sucky for when you're meriting it up. Many of the new WS will still outperform other popular WS even with 3/5.

Asking to have all of them maxable is like asking for one to be able to max every skill in every tree in games with skill/talent trees. The whole reason those exist is to create a decision for the player that makes one player different from another, and it is the reason merits exist too. I totally agree the current scheme is too restricting but what they're doing is at least a step in the right direction. If the max points were 25, you could max 5 or put 4 in 6 or 3 in 8 or some mix thereof. I think this is totally reasonable without applying the "gimme everything' mentality.

This change also makes the WS merits a lot like many of the job specific ones- Actually useful with the first point and buffed up with the rest, rather than "useless until you max it."

Kincard

01-13-2013, 06:53 AM

After the patch even 1/5 would make the majority of them useful. One of the primary complaints/reasoning people used for it in the first place is that "I won't be able to play my other jobs because they're now missing a key WS and I don't have time to get REMs for all of them".

Well, now you don't have to.

Insaniac

01-13-2013, 07:34 AM

I don't understand why you are defending a half measure. Yes it's better than what we have now. Everyone understands that. Though in a game where people obsess over the tiniest increases in damage, do you really think it's a great solution? Rolling with a 95% modifier instead of 100% is not a level of self inflicted gimpage most people will be willing to accept no matter how miniscule a decrease in DPS it actually is. Most of us will keep 3 capped WSs.

Kincard

01-13-2013, 07:56 AM

I don't understand why you are defending a half measure.

It's a measure that's better than them simply raising the category cap by 5-10 levels because this is far more flexible. Realistically, they're not going to completely uncap all the merit categories anytime soon.

Everyone understands that.

Not at all. If you do that's cool, but there are people who are seriously saying that this is just as bad as/worse than doing nothing, which is complete nonsense.

Most of us will keep 3 capped WSs.

You mean that's what you will be doing. There are plenty of players (And it's not like we're not talking some tiny minority) that are very happy they can drop Exenterator or Requiescat down a few points so their extra jobs will have a usable weapon skill. Wasn't that the whole crux of the problem to begin with? That because of these merited WS, we can't play many of our jobs?

5% mod is seriously like, 300 damage off your Resolution, assuming you have 500 STR. If you can't lose that, it's by your own choice. I'll probably be keeping 2 WSs 5/5 myself but it's ridiculous to say that this isn't solving the biggest complaint that people had with it.

If people want to say that letting us actually play our jobs wasn't the complaint, they're moving the goalposts.

Alhanelem

01-13-2013, 08:38 AM

I don't see it as defending a half measure so much as accepting the most we're likely going to get. I think though, that they should both make the proposed change AND increase the limit. But i have my doubts they'd even consider it...

Insaniac

01-13-2013, 08:47 AM

1. They should do a combination of the two. Change the modifier tiers and give us 25+ merits to spend in the category. This would make everyone happy. Everyone. It would cause no game balance issue.

2. Those people are being over dramatic but still understand that this would be better than what we have or at least I hope they are. If given the choice between this change and no change I think they would all take the improvement.

3. No, I mean that's what most people will be doing. The word "most" implies more than half. Some people may move some stuff around to get access to utility WSs like requisecat in exchange for a minor loss to a WS for a job they don't play often but I really feel that number will be pretty far below 50%.

People like capping things. They don't like having to sacrifice performance on one job for another no matter how small that performance drop is. If this change addressed the previous complaints then less people would still be complaining.

Also, I would like to see your 500 STR build lol.

Kincard

01-13-2013, 08:53 AM

They should do a combination of the two. Change the modifier tiers and give us 25+ merits to spend in the category.

I would definitely not disagree with this, lol.

No, I mean that's what most people will be doing. The word "most" implies more than half. Some people may move some stuff around to get access to utility WSs like requisecat in exchange for a minor loss to a WS for a job they don't play often but I really feel that number will be pretty far below 50%.

I think for a lot of people playing heavy jobs (Reso/Shoha) they'll be very hesitant to drop points off their master WS, but for people who have things like Shun, Req, Exent, Realmrazer, Shattersoul etc it's going to be really nice to be able to drop points off of it without the WS becoming total garbage.

Also, I would like to see your 500 STR build lol.

I was mostly just exaggerating to show that even at a really high WSC you're actually not losing *that* much.

Unrelated to the Weapon Skill adjustments...something I just thought of.

Are monsters going to get the adjustments to magic base damage too? It's gonna suuuuuuck if enemies get the same adjustments, especially if similar adjustments are being made to -ga/-ja lines.

Demon6324236

01-13-2013, 08:59 AM

I agree with the question about enemy magic, I honestly think enemy magic is a bit overpowered as it is in a lot of cases, so to make it more powerful is only worse to me.

Insaniac

01-13-2013, 09:06 AM

I would definitely not disagree with this, lol.We're just butting heads over nothing then. It seemed like you were saying this adjustment is enough and anyone asking for more is being greedy. I see it as a half measure. There's no reason level 1 WSs should be as useless as they are so it's a good change but it doesn't really address the issue in a way that will make the vast majority of players happy.

ManaKing

01-13-2013, 09:44 AM

Had to reread that last part .... which explains your complete and utter lack of understanding of game mechanics. Just wanted to be clear that you would prefer DRK's resort to axe's over using GSWD?

Oh I'm sorry, I used to play DRK before the 2H adjustment. Sorry I've been playing since release and things have changed? You clearly don't understand why some people play this game because you don't seem to value job identity. 2H adjustment happened, no more 1H on real DDs unless you were exploiting SE. It wasn't a hard concept to understand.

On the other hand, why you are so adamant about protecting a lazy handout of a WS and a ridiculous adjustment in a Relics DPS at max level, is beyond me. Sometimes things are too good to be true and people should realize that, instead of doing it anyways and asking for people to take it easy on them when their consequences come.

I don't just want to nerf Resolution for the sake of Scythes, I also want it for the sake of Caladbolg. SE made a perfectly good GSWD WS and now no one will use it because Resolution is a Multi-Hit not just better damage, but also better consistency. Torcleaver should have better damage than Resolution and Resolution should have better consistency especially since you can use it with a Ragnarok.

I mostly just want Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency Buffed. Entropy needed to be 5 hits if it was going to be INT. Instead it goes to GSWD. Does not make sense and never did. Quietus and CT are both regarded as the worst Empy WS for DDs. There needs to be a reason that you would care about going through a mobs defense, which arguably there may be soon, but they still need to do good damage against regular mobs too. Ukko's is still going to truck through almost everything because of how it is designed. I don't think everything should be as strong as Ukko's but it wouldn't hurt to make anything on an Empy worth making. Those particular Empy are Chloris, and is just as time consuming and annoying as Glavoid.

And Insurgency, You want to know how Conqueror and Liberator stack up? The Great Axe is good and the Scythe is terrible. Augments Berserk to give you even more damage vs still doesn't really make your absorbs spells worth casting and magic accuracy. Kings Justice is a decent WS and Insurgency is still bad. Total damage output of a maxed Ukon and Conqueror is pretty close. AM3 turns decent WSs into contenders. AM3 can't do anything for a WS that is 4 hits of .5 fTP and 20%STR and INT. That is just a losing battle against anything that isn't easy to slaughter already.

------
I think they should just add enough Merits so you can have 4 or 5 Merit WSs. This game is about min and maxing. Players just aren't nice to people when you don't have the best setup because this game takes time. Nobody wants their time wasted.

Byrth

01-13-2013, 11:48 AM

There are several parts of the posts above that are confusing, but I figure I'll just pick a few:

1) Insurgency is 1 hit of 0.5~1 fTP and 3 hits of 1 fTP (plus additional 1 fTP attacks that may occur)

2) Insurgency is certainly worse than Entropy (slightly with a 150 INT/STR build, Gorget/Belt, AM3, and 20% DA), but King's Justice is also worse than Upheaval so the comparison doesn't make that much sense.

3) Scythe has higher base damage than Great Sword and Resolution has lower a lower 100TP fTP. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that SE didn't realize elemental gorgets/belts/Mekira-oto +1 would propagate through on some of these weapon skills. If they didn't, the damage potential would be much more in line with preexisting WSs.

4) This is not a nerf to DRK. This is a buff to other jobs. Perhaps very few other jobs depending whether or not it affects 1H weapons (mostly just Kogarasamune SAMs and zerging WARs).

A few other random things:

* I agree with Motenten about the cap raise (to 17) combined with the change outlined in the OP. There are several situational WSs that will never be my primary WS on the jobs I play, but would be useful to have available for stat debuff or skillchaining reasons. With 17 slots, I'd probably go: 5 Exenterator, 5 Resolution, 1 Upheaval, 1 Stardiver, 1 Shijin Spiral, 1 Shattersoul, 1 Ruinator, 1 Requiescat, 1 Last Stand

* I am disappointed that the 1H notes do not appear to be about level correction, but note that Camate made the OP at 7AM and replied by 10AM JST on a Saturday in Japan. It was probably supposed to be taken as a translation note rather than interpretation of the meaning and likely did not have Dev input due to the time. His note about the STR/DEX thing is totally correct (the upper two paragraphs in that subsection of the OP), but the final paragraph is what my question was about. "Modifier" isn't a term that we have, so I'd say that the meaning here is still opaque rather than totally disappointing. This is also probably why he didn't reply to my Last Resort question.

A change to the the STR/Attack and DEX/Acc relationship for 1H weapons (even if it's for the main hand only) would be welcomed but would fail to address the major problem 1H weapon users face at the moment, which is being locked out of high-end endgame due to the difference in Ratio caps between 1H and 2H weapons.

* I would still like to know whether Last Resort will affect 1H weapons.

* The Elemental Magic changes are huge and I don't think we'll fully appreciate their implications until after they're implemented, but this may revive magic as a damage source.

Edit: Made an error comparing Entropy to Insurgency. They're not nearly as far apart as it seemed at first. It's arguably not inferior if you can trade its weaker mods for large amounts of Attack/Acc in a situation where you need attack.

Mookies75

01-13-2013, 01:06 PM

Please look into there being a minimum amount of floors you can jump in NNI. Luck plays too much of a role in even clearing 80 floors. Too frequently even if we only get a few lamp floors we get too many poor floor jumps.

Also I would highly suggest that you somehow limit the amount of lamp floors that are in the pool based on the floor attempt being made (80 or 100). Its pretty disheartening to be spammed with lamp floors over and over again knowing that just by the time it takes to clear them you cannot make timer.

I don't really want to have to pay the hackers/exploiters/rmt 10+ mil to get the gear I've already put a lot of effort into trying to get. But seeing as how they are continuously spamming jeuno yells not getting banned... And even if they were banned they just make a new char... I may have to just fork over the money.

Also you may want to check out a lot of the "top" players on ffxiah for each server. Most of them have pics blatantly showing them having clipper activated. Honestly I'm just tired of NNI not getting tuned the way it should be because of how many cheaters there are that are not getting caught. All the proposed embrava nerf will do is force other players to use the same methods as the RMT/Exploiters/Hackers (Most already do).

saevel

01-13-2013, 03:17 PM

Oh I'm sorry, I used to play DRK before the 2H adjustment. Sorry I've been playing since release and things have changed? You clearly don't understand why some people play this game because you don't seem to value job identity. 2H adjustment happened, no more 1H on real DDs unless you were exploiting SE. It wasn't a hard concept to understand.

On the other hand, why you are so adamant about protecting a lazy handout of a WS and a ridiculous adjustment in a Relics DPS at max level, is beyond me. Sometimes things are too good to be true and people should realize that, instead of doing it anyways and asking for people to take it easy on them when their consequences come.

I don't just want to nerf Resolution for the sake of Scythes, I also want it for the sake of Caladbolg. SE made a perfectly good GSWD WS and now no one will use it because Resolution is a Multi-Hit not just better damage, but also better consistency. Torcleaver should have better damage than Resolution and Resolution should have better consistency especially since you can use it with a Ragnarok.

More vitriol. Why are you even still playing now? And I can guarantee that I've been playing longer then you, mostly due to the geographic region I happen to live in. Not like play time is any measure of skill, I personally know the first NA player and he's still sh!t at the game (not that he plays much anymore).

Anywho, you kinda made my point for me regarding Axe's and how weak scyth / gswd were. That DRK's would resort to using /NIN and Rampage spam kinda shows that the other two were piss weak. The 2H buff did much but GSWD / Scyth were largely left alone with GAXE / PLM got a crit WS and GKT was buffed through the roof.

No such thing as "Job Identity", if you want that then go COSPLAY at your local university. You can go run around with spiky armor pretending to be some big mean evil creature of hate and not effecting anyone else while your at it. Plus how is Great Sword not a DRK weapon again? Hell DRK's "job identity" was using a club / dagger / sword during SEBW zergs, or did your brain malfunction and skip that part.

You just want to nerf Reso cause you see so many Rags running around and your no longer a special snow flake.

Fermion

01-13-2013, 03:38 PM

* The Elemental Magic changes are huge and I don't think we'll fully appreciate their implications until after they're implemented, but this may revive magic as a damage source.

Almost. I think these changes plus the advent of Magic Attack Bonus foods (top tier being on par with Red Curry Buns) and buffs, will make great strides towards evening the playing field. I'm excited at the prospect of magic damage actually being acceptable again. Time to move those dex merits to int.

saevel

01-13-2013, 03:45 PM

Almost. I think these changes plus the advent of Magic Attack Bonus foods (top tier being on par with Red Curry Buns) and buffs, will make great strides towards evening the playing field. I'm excited at the prospect of magic damage actually being acceptable again. Time to move those dex merits to int.

Magic Damage still won't hold a candle to melee damage, but at least it'll be useful. This is more in line with other MMO's were magic DD stands back and acts as artillery.

Now I'd like to see a spell that inflicts the target with Magic Defense Down (negative MDB) / Magic Evasion Down, has a fast casting time (1s) semi-short duration (30s) and low recast (5s). Give it to RDM, they can then act as a form of support for the magic line.

Nightfox

01-13-2013, 04:06 PM

All these ideas are really good. Was hoping for uncapped merits so I could finally party more and do stuff with my merit points but 65% modifiers with 1 merit point is pretty solid too. As for walk of echoes, I never see anyone there on cerberus server except early morning with Japanese players. I hope there will be more adjustments that give players more drive to attend WoE, though non-Ex coins and Die/Residue sacks are tempting. Well see how things go. Keep up the good work Devs. /like

SpankWustler

01-13-2013, 07:24 PM

* The Elemental Magic changes are huge and I don't think we'll fully appreciate their implications until after they're implemented, but this may revive magic as a damage source.

What struck me most was seeing this tiny sentence at the bottom of the huge table:

Please note that we will be making additional adjustments on elemental magic using this change as the foundation.

Realistically, this is probably just SE's super-roundabout way of saying that specific numbers aren't set in stone yet even though the concept has been decided or that they can always change more stuff in the future if they feel like it. This is a big change alone, so I can't imagine what would come with it.

Optimistically, though, the statement could mean that this huge change to elemental magic's fundaments will also set the framework for more specific changes that only affect certain jobs or only benefit bros in specific situations. Given the scale of this change alone, that's like saying, "I threw out that rubber dingy full of encephalitic badgers and built an ark filled with every breed of kitten just so they'll let me in when I sail to Kitten-Utopia next weekend".

MarkovChain

01-13-2013, 08:32 PM

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons
This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about making adjustments to single-handed weapons, and we would like to perform adjustments.
As has been mentioned, food and other choices are quite limited due to the fact that status modifiers are far greater for two-handed weapons and there is a higher need for accuracy when using single-handed weapons.
For example, we are currently looking into the possibility of adding some form of merit that would enhance the modifiers for the single-handed weapon main weapon slot.

JA haste on last resort

I don't want to be the guy that destroys the good mood on the thread but /drk offers nothing. All it does is allow you to remove some haste on your gear and only when LR is up, which ends up to equal to a couple of DA or attack. Comparatively, /war will have agressor, as well Double attack 100% of the time, so in practice it's going to be preferred. It would be MUCH better to make subjob ajustement to ninja. For instance focus on acc buff when /nin.

Secondly, almost nothing requires accuracy in the game, so your analyse about the 2 handed DD being 'supposedely" inferior due to accuracy is wrong. Jobs like nin or thf suck VS all DD (not only 2 handed, but mnks too) because their weapon has a too low base damage. You need to bring them to a level that makes them equal to monk. For instance a MNK with good gear has a damage split between 70% melee/ 30% weapon skill. Therefore to reduce the gap you need to increase their melee performance. Suggestions :

more crit rate or crit damage
increase the usefullness of STR (higher weapon rank on weapons)
give /nin a new JA as powerful as hasso ( acc buff or crit buff or DA buff)

I understand the good will to reduce the gap between various jobs but your current suggestions are necessarily going to fail due to what I explained. Buffing last resort to give some haste will likely fail because you can't FULL TIME it unlike hasso.

The only good part I see is dex and str buff but it's fairly limited because attack is not a problem for any DD, and acc is only situationally useful. Like I suggested, try to consider a better conversion of STR to DMG for 1 handed DD instead.

For instance with spharai I have 52 damage. With max str I end up with 52+14=66 DMG. 2h anded weapons get much more because the bonus is dependent on the base damage. Since dual wielding users have a weapon split between 2 hands, the bonus is counted per hand and it ends up to being much more limited. So I'll suggest to double the bonus of STR on melee damage for 1 handed melees.

Traxus

01-13-2013, 09:40 PM

If you're going to make all elements of elemental magic useful, can you add a way to merge magian staves and sea obis while you're at it?

xbobx

01-14-2013, 12:00 AM

A few things.

Weaponskill change - just raise the cap, it breaks nothing, stop taking simple solutions and making them difficult.
Elemental change - make sure you look at puppetmaster. Being that you can't really adjust the int on your puppet you may destroy the blm puppet. (bet that didn't even cross your mind)
1hand adjustment. So, 2hand is considered strong, so adjust 1 hand. There is also h2h that keeps getting forgotten about. Is it 1 hand or 2 hand. If 2 hand it does not share those buffs. If one hand, then why can't equip grips. Lets not forget 2 jobs use h2h as main source of dmg, unless because it is only 2 its not warranted to care about.

Kincard

01-14-2013, 12:50 AM

I agree that when adjusting elemental magic, things like magical blue magic, puppets, magical blood pacts and ninjutsu must be taken into consideration. A lot of these are already quite weak in their current form and if they don't get adjustments accordingly alongside the BLM nukes they will fade even more into obscurity.

Furthermore I think it should be considered evening out the MP costs of the same tier a bit (I don't see any issue with making them equal the same way the cast time/recast is planned to be made). If you look at the MP cost of Stone V VS Thunder V, at high levels of INT you are spending twice the amount of MP for the same amount of damage out of Thunder V. I think this would just reverse the situation we have now, with people preferring to spam Stone/Water IV and V over people spamming Blizzard/Thunder IV and V, etc.

SpankWustler

01-14-2013, 12:55 AM

Elemental change - make sure you look at puppetmaster. Being that you can't really adjust the int on your puppet you may destroy the blm puppet. (bet that didn't even cross your mind)

This is a good point, which ties into another thing the new Elemental Magic system will affect if monsters and pets also receive the 2.0 versions of spells. The high INT some monsters have could suck for way more bros than just the puppet.

There's the obvious fact that tier IV and lower spells would become harder to Stun. Beyond that, however, does anybody know how much Magic Attack Bonus and INT the average casting monster has? Do most monsters who cast have very high INT but the base level of Magic Attack Bonus for their job, which would make their single-target magic damage sky-rocket after this update?

I think the latter is the case, but my memory is terrible and I've never had a reason to look for any testing on monster Magic Attack Bonus in the past.

This might suck, because the highest level monsters already destroy people with TP moves and super-spells like Kaustra and Meteor. On the other hand, this could actually add an element of danger that isn't a ridiculous AoE something-or-other and might make Rune Fencer more useful.

Big change might be big, basically.

Yinnyth

01-14-2013, 02:25 AM

I believe Absolute Virtue was calculated as having around 100 INT, but they made up for this relatively low number by giving him a large MAB. Most bosses seem to be this way- lower INT than you'd expect for how difficult they are (presumably so they're not immune to BLMs), but a sizeable MAB (so their magic is still threatening). However, some areas of the game seem to thrive on giving the enemies ridiculously high attributes, such as Dynamis.

Magic is already pretty much the most threatening thing any normal enemy can use against us... if that thundaga III being cast on us by the trash blm gets even stronger, we're going to need more methods for decreasing magic damage.

ManaKing

01-14-2013, 02:32 AM

I think that is the point of this. Pretty much every BLM mob is going to be as dangerous as they are in Dynamis. These are big changes. They are increasing the danger from mages because they have generally been docile for the last 3+ years.

WHM with bar spells, shell, and Sacrosanctity is going to become pretty important against terrible things.

If Rampart's duration was increased, PLD would be a much more attractive choice to toughen up your front line's defense. Would do nothing for everyone else's magical defense, but at least you'd get physical defense.

They are really trying to stop the proliferation of physical DD while increasing the potency of mages. It's like they were tired of magic not really being a part of their game. Hopefully there will be adjustments to SC M.Acc so we can see if people will stop zerging everything.

Byrth

01-14-2013, 02:34 AM

The other way to compensate for these changes is to incorporate INT into your MDT set.

ManaKing

01-14-2013, 02:36 AM

The other way to compensate for these changes is to incorporate INT into your MDT set.

Tarutaru's don't have completely terrrible stats again.

Insaniac

01-14-2013, 02:47 AM

I would expect this adjustment to only affect players. Just like the VIT and AGI changes.

MarkovChain

01-14-2013, 08:42 AM

if that thundaga III being cast on us by the trash blm gets even stronger, we're going to need more methods for decreasing magic damage.

Not sure if serious. A WHM can chain cure5-6 and aga 4 or 5 without having to worry about hate. Noone cares about the magic damage they take ; mobs are either stunned, PD'd zerked, or tanks are curebombed. If you still need magic reduction after that a basic 10k AH gear is solving the problem lol.

Mirage

01-14-2013, 10:12 AM

And due to a strong desire for knowledge, your departing soul will forever belong to Belphegor.

http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad89/Saiph42/BelphegorAv02.jpg

THIS MAN'S SOUL HANGS IN THE BALANCE!

Best persona ever.

In either case. I was thinking 22 or 23 in total would be good. It'd basically be like what motenten was talking about, except with one extra 5/5 ws or something.

Alhanelem

01-14-2013, 10:58 AM

Smokenttp

01-14-2013, 04:29 PM

i got an ideia on the enmity system (not sure if someone tought about something similar but will give it a shot here anyway mainly because i want to talk about attack changes and one handed weapon changes as well)

Altough i dont understand much about the system if i recall right there are 2 types of enmity right? one of then is variable and if i recall right the main problem is that DDs reach the cap of both very quickly so pld is not able to tank properly after that and alot of people sugested to increase the cap but that would only make it take longer to reach the same result. So my ideia revolves around Temporaly increasing the variable enmity cap (via a buff) modifing existing Job Abilities (Mainly Provoke and Animated Flourish, but might include other abilities as well maybe even Snar or other "provoke like" ability) to give that buff ( the JA would still work like normal only giving that buff to the player that used the JA as an extra feture). This buff would last to at least 60%-75%+ the recast of the ability to allow ppl to actually hold hate without losing the sense of danger, the amount exactly that the enmity will raise should be the amount of VE of the Ja (voke and flourish , as for snarl i dont have much ideia on how to do this).

with that changes in mind it would affect tanking even at low levels and give a fix that wont need a complete revamp on the enmity system, and will allow even jobs that had a little hard time tanking before to be able to do it effectivly. also if the attack vs defence thing actually becomes big it will help jobs even on low levels as well and both defender and berserk like abilities as well as bard songs , cor rolls, foods , protects would play an even major role on parties overall and i would even dare to say make the game more balanced over the jobs (especially with the new elemental magics changes).

as for the one hand vs 2 hands this might be a dumb idea but why dont improve the crit hit rate and bit of the critical damage for one handed weapons ( h2h(?) and dual wield(probably an yes on this one) included) it would allow one handers to do more damage but would be situational unlike 2handers wich the damage is constant.

Metaking

01-14-2013, 09:44 PM

Aren't the magic changes more about reducing the gap between the elements rather than making magic better as a whole? And are non-BLM magic damage spells going to be affected by these changes? e.g. banishes, ninjutsu, the few magic blu spells that aren't breaths? ninjutsu is more a gear issue, the banish/holy line of spells could defiantly use some re-balancing tho, tho gear also seems like a slight issue for whms trying to max there line, and blu nukes im pretty sure were sol with this adjustment, if it were ever to happen would probably be when se says hay lets fix the all but 3 magical weapon skills(since most blu nukes are calculated like this and not more traditional nukeing styles) that dont suck.

ps if by some act of madness spawned by Cthulhu and the great noodly one se does look at blu spells while there at it change those spells that use breath formulas that dont say breath in there name to a normal blu nuke >.> pls.....

Kincard

01-14-2013, 10:03 PM

ninjutsu is more a gear issue

Trust me, it isn't. -ton spells are garbage.

saevel

01-14-2013, 10:57 PM

Trust me, it isn't. -ton spells are garbage.

The -NI's kinda had purpose. Their magic evasion down effect is unresistable. The only negative is how short of a duration it lasts, if SE would buff the duration to be 60s then I could see some tactile use for it. For damage... their extremely ~meh~. Best someone could hope for is a few hundred points of damage from a single fully merited one.

Byrth

01-15-2013, 12:10 AM

With capped skill, Innin, and a little effort I think you can probably pop off ~800 damage San spells or ~400 damage Ni spells. They serve their purpose as an alternative damage form (magic damage/kiting damage source) and add versatility to the job.

Adjustments to them that I'd make:
1) I'd add an Occult Acumen-like trait to Ninja that gives 5~10 TP (Trait level 1 at 15, 2 at 40, 3 at 75) for every Ninjutsu landed.
2) I'd reduce the casting time of San spells to 1 second and leave the recast time unchanged. Magic damage has to be fast to remain competitive with melee damage, which SE seems to have recognized in the OP. Still, reducing the recast could make San spamming too viable, and Ninja is still primarily seen as a melee jobs.

Kincard

01-15-2013, 12:52 AM

I think I would only see those kinds of numbers outside Abyssea if I used Futae and I was nuking something worth nuking (both low level and weak to magic). Even if I run into a slime or a flan they're of questionable usability (because of how fast a Ninja attacks naturally anyway), and against a lot of enemies where it could've done better than meleeing I get resisted too often. I guess that's what the earlier poster meant by "it's a gear issue", since Ninja doesn't have a whole lot to choose from as far as magic damage gear goes.

For luls I threw a Suiton: Ni at Cerberus Seether a few times and it did less than 100 damage every time. Granted, I was hardly trying to maximize the damage (No Innin, ninjutsu skill set as opposed to MAB/INT set since skill bonus is capped without gear etc).

Ultimately by design it seems their purpose (Because of short cast time) was to basically be Ninja Meleeing -> Throw out big nuke if Futae is up/help set up a nuke for BLMs -> go back to meleeing. I think they should instead make San spells have less or equal cast time but a really, really long recast time with increased D, or make the Futae bonus a massive one (also make Futae make the next nuke increase elemental resistance/def down). That way it feels more like something supplementing my melee damage once in a while instead of just sort of being there or being overpowered enough that nuking is the only viable option. Essentially it'd become a Quick Draw for NINs, I guess.

Sarick

01-15-2013, 01:22 AM

Happy Friday everyone!

Please take a moment to read the below comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui regarding overall battle adjustments.

Elemental Magic

We have received a variety of feedback on elemental magic.
The first thing I’m thinking of doing is making adjustments to the damage calculations.

Here’s my current image of how elemental magic is going to work:
The damage output on earth element spells will initially be lower compared to the rest of the elements, but have the best cost performance overall. Also, INT will have an even larger impact on the damage output. As a result, players will basically try to raise their INT and magic attack to get closer to the damage output done by lightning element spells.

Wait, it's player INT vs target INT and not player INT vs TARGET MND?

Kincard

01-15-2013, 01:37 AM

Yep, it's always been then way (Though Banish/Holy is MND vs MND IIRC). Always found that kinda weird but is what it is.

Byrth

01-15-2013, 03:01 AM

Well those numbers are for, 150 INT, 30 MAB (AF3+2 hands and AF2+2 head are 20 already), Innin, vs. an 85 INT enemy (pretty reasonable) with capped skill.
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Category:Ninjutsu

Dantedmc

01-15-2013, 08:37 AM

The Elemental magic changes are a step in the right direction, however i feel as though more needs to be done:

-Make Elemental Magic Skill affect damage

-Remove the decrease in damage from multiple mages casting at the same time on the same target.

-blm has horrible MP efficiency in comparison to sch or rdm. Please give it more ways to reduce mp costs and regain mp. The only reason this isn't talked about much is due to the fact that blm is only involved with events that give copious amounts of ways to recover mp.

-Events themselves really don't seem to invite magic damage with the heavy magic resistance compared to physical resistance and the lack of events that emphasize magic damage as a beneficial tactic.

-Mages don't have good brd / cor buffs in comparison to physical DD.

-Enmity, but you already said you would address that.

Metaking

01-15-2013, 10:14 AM

I guess that's what the earlier poster meant by "it's a gear issue", since Ninja doesn't have a whole lot to choose from as far as magic damage gear goes.

.
yup
similar issue for most magical wepon skills is that the jobs dont get gear to support them, you give nin black mage... hell blue mage class nukeing gear and im pretty sure they will rock your socks off, also agree with the statment se should greatly lower nin nukeing cast timers so they could use it in run and gun type strats

saevel

01-15-2013, 07:37 PM

Personally I believe all magic designed to be cast my melee / hybrids should have a 0.5s cast time. This includes all ninjitsu and most dark magic (Absorbs). Absorb spells might actually be useful if they had a 0.5s cast time.

ManaKing

01-16-2013, 02:48 AM

I wonder if they will adjust Impact at all. In some ways the utility of the spell may become more useful but the price tag for it's use is always an issue.

It would be nice if they adjusted the duration of the stat down to be un-resistible so that you always got something for blowing 666MP. The damage should still be normal, or at least normal after the adjustments. That way you can hit Dark resistant mobs with it and still get something out of a spell that requires an inventory space to cast.

ManaKing

01-16-2013, 05:19 AM

Also, just make Scythes WSs actually good. I just don't care about Resolution anymore. I've spent some time thinking about it and I would rather DRK be in the game as something other than just bad.

Areayea

01-16-2013, 06:10 PM

I have to disagree on most of the changes... regarding dark knight, you wanna nerf it... LOWER THEIR VIT/DEF... that's what made them useless a long time ago. as for the sub idea I already tried it using blue mage, make the Occult Acumen better, and then it'll be a useful sub (remember that makes you gain tp per spell).

As for the WSes those things were broken since they started, and all you people who are saying pick and choose, I 100% agree, but I also 100% agreed that there should NOT be a limit on merit point categories.

The end, there are a lot of other things I'd like to debate on, but the whole statement Camate did was sort of a cluster... you know what, so for now I'll be done I can argue the two handed vs one handed things later.

That's just my opinion tho, there are probably a lot more out there

Xilk

01-16-2013, 10:43 PM

Cair

01-17-2013, 01:32 AM

The change to Last Resort is not a useful change if it is only for 2H weapons, as it can only be properly utilized by Samurai.

You stated that you are aware that one-handers are suffering, but choose to only buff Samurai?

Make it affect all weapons or don't bother changing it.

SpankWustler

01-17-2013, 01:44 AM

Looks like the Last Resort/Desperate blows haste effect will stay the same.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29822-%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B7%E3%82%B9%E3%83%86%E3%83%A0%E5%85%A8%E8%88%AC%E3%81%AE%E4%BB%8A%E5%BE%8C%E3%81%AE%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=393874#post393874

That is, it will only apply to 2h weapons.

Sometimes, I feel very happy that the Development Bros just work on a video-game instead of doing medical research or social work or anything that can really make people miserable when well-meaning things are done in a way that makes no damn sense.

Ophannus

01-17-2013, 01:48 AM

While currently, it might be difficult to imagine the situations where a front-line job would select dark knight for their support job, we would like to look into this based on this possibility.

Since it was confirmed that the Last Resort adjustment will only work for Two-Handed Weapons, /DRK will pretty much only be useful for Samurais since they can stack Hasso with Last Resort for MASSIVE effect. DRG and WAR need /SAM because both lack any kind of useful defensive ability, additionally, /SAM offers Store TP, Meditate, Sekkanoki which are all extremely invaluable. /DRK almost cuts it for DRG because having BOTH an Attack Boost ability AND an Attack Speed ability are extremely appealing since DRG lacks both natively unlike WAR,SAM and DRK. The problem with DRG/DRK is it leaves us defenseless and the duration is only temporary unlike Hasso. If only you could give WAR and DRG their own Attack speed abilities so things like DRG/WAR or WAR/DRK could be viable as DRG and WAR are extremely reliant on /SAM much how many 1handed jobs used to be too reliant on /NIN for Dual Wield until it was given to THF/BLU/DNC recently.

Byrth

01-17-2013, 01:57 AM

SAM using Hasso with AF3+2 pants can already cap delay without Last Resort. At the delay cap, Last Resort will just give them a little more gearing freedom. It is a pretty major upgrade for Samurai in non-capped situations, but DRG and WAR should stick to /SAM for Hasso outside of zergs.

So instead of being an interesting buff for some 1H weapons in uncapped delay situations, this Last Resort change is a SAM buff. Considering Kogarasumaru is arguably the strongest weapon in the game, I can't see how this is justified.

Mefuki

01-17-2013, 02:29 AM

Talk about how 1 handers can't keep up with 2 handers.

Buff SAM.

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/misc-jackie-chan-l.png

Cair

01-17-2013, 02:42 AM

Apparently details of that are to come. They were probably just concerned that SAM couldn't always keep up with DRK, and decided to cater to their precious DD.

Devs should just go back to pretending SAM was a tank like they used to, I think it would benefit most other jobs quite handsomely.

Okipuit

01-17-2013, 05:24 AM

Greetings,

Desperate Blows currently only applies to 2-handed weapons. Would Last Resort post-update still only give 2-handed weapon Haste, or would 1-handed jobs also be able to benefit from it?

Currently, the development team plans to have the proposed Last Resort haste benefit only apply to two-handed weapons. The reason being is there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.

We also wanted to share some additional inquiries about the battle system adjustments:

What's going to happen with hand-to-hand weapons?

Categorically hand-to-hand weapons fall under the single-handed weapon classification; however, the stats for hand-to-hand weapons are quite different from that of swords, which are literally held in just one hand, and they will not be treated the same. We will be separating hand-to-hand weapons from this balance adjustment and making changes that fit more in line with the weapon.

Will the elemental magic adjustments apply to automatons as well?

Yes, we will be applying the elemental magic adjustments to automatons as well. Though, by simply raising the stats for automatons there will be aspects that cause the automaton to overload easier and such, so we will be keeping these points in mind and looking at balance.

Lastly, we understand that some of you wish to be able to increase the number of merit weapon skills that can be fully upgraded, but this is something that we discussed previously (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=333736&viewfull=1#post333736). Instead of making it so you can get everything, we're thinking about making it so there will be benefits without having to max out a category, which will open up the choices a bit more.

Yinnyth

01-17-2013, 06:27 AM

I'm trying to understand a lot of the things said by the reps in this thread, but there is a chain of logic I simply cannot follow. From what I've read, it sounds like they think DRK is too powerful because of desperate blows:

This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about dark knight being too powerful. As was commented during VanaFest, we feel dark knight is becoming powerful

So they're going to nerf desperate blows while boosting last resort by exactly the same amount so... no nerf is really accomplished:

•Current
•Desperate Blows +25%
•Post-adjustment
•Desperate Blows +10% (*Value with 5 merit points)
•Last Resort +15%

But this makes it so that DRK becomes a new viable option for a SJ:

Simply put, this adjustment will allow you to gain this effect in the case you use dark knight as your support job.

But since this change will have no effect on one-handers:

Currently, the development team plans to have the proposed Last Resort haste benefit only apply to two-handed weapons. The reason being is there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.

Then all of this is moot. There is only one job that seriously gains from using drk as a SJ, and that's samurai. Samurai is still a better SJ than drk because hasso can be on full time so you never lose the haste, plus the various TP benefits and seigan if stuff takes a turn for the worse. So forgive my ignorance if this is not the case, but this whole chain of logic looks like it is designed only to give SAM the ability to reach the same amount of JA haste that DRK can reach. And even then, it still probably won't be used over /war or /dnc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making it so there's more SJ diversity! And this change might just be one step towards making drk a more viable SJ with other changes on the horizon. But the whole reason people sub sam is it gives them massive boosts if they use a 2h weapon. Don't you think there should be SJ options that give you almost comparable boosts regardless of how many hands you use to hold your weapon? Also, I think it would be better to start with the jobs that people almost never sub (like cor, brd, pup, rng, drg, blu, bst, smn, mnk), not one that people situationally sub like drk.

Demon6324236

01-17-2013, 06:27 AM

GreetingsThank you for answering more questions, however I would like to know if there is any chance mine might be answered. So that it is easier to find, my question and the post in which it in are right here.
Since we have had a few questions directly answered in this thread it seems, I would like to ask one or two myself if possible. Is there any chance we will be seeing a point system in Voidwatch sometime before the release of Seekers, and if so, how might it work? I recall talk of Crystal Petrifacts being used for something else when the Chocobo Blinker nerf was done, and the ability to trade them for cruor was held back, around the same time is when we heard that we may be seeing more point system like functions in the game. So I would also like to know if they might be involved in something like that, or what the current plans are for Crystal Petrifacts outside of Provenance.I would be very happy if I could get some info about these things, as I feel they are very important to the future of Voidwatch and its items.

BorkBorkBork

01-17-2013, 06:29 AM

Greetings,

Lastly, we understand that some of you wish to be able to increase the number of merit weapon skills that can be fully upgraded, but this is something that we discussed previously (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=333736&viewfull=1#post333736). Instead of making it so you can get everything, we're thinking about making it so there will be benefits without having to max out a category, which will open up the choices a bit more.

I think people would be satisfied if the cap was increased 5-10 points. The proposed idea of making them less powerful but having access to more doesn't come close to what the player base wants and the reasoning for it smacks of 2008.

Prothscar

01-17-2013, 06:59 AM

Last Resort change is essentially worthless and is not conducive to the Dev Team's overall goals. 2h jobs won't see very much value in the change outside of lowman and low buff situations. Also, level the playing field between 1h and 2h jobs by buffing 2h, yes. That aside...

The 1h adjustments in general are pretty horrible. Simply increasing the STR/DEX conversion ratio for 1h weapons (through a limited resource no less) is not a good solution whatsoever. The attack and accuracy from STR and DEX are fairly inconsequential, the main issue is that 2h jobs have a huge edge generated from Job Abilities and, to a somewhat lesser extent equipment, while enjoying hefty bonuses when fighting high level targets.

Ergo, what 1h weapons need are their own set of unique attributes. A bonus to critical hit rate and/or critical hit damage parameters for all 1h weapons would do well to help leveling the playing field. I'd also suggest having Fencer activate while Dual Wielding rather than just when you're single wielding. These adjustments would help alleviate major issues with 1h weapons, especially 1h weapon's harsher penalties for fighting high level targets. It would also somewhat alleviate 1h job's general lack of strong attack buffs and lower overall attack scores across the board.

Alternative solutions, such as allowing 1h weapons to bypass part of level correction, increasing 1h weapon's ratio cap, or adding new job abilities, spells, and traits to all 1h jobs are also possible. I'll reiterate: STR/DEX conversion is not the most crippling issue facing 1h weapons, please do not focus on that aspect of it.

bigdave

01-17-2013, 07:54 AM

is it sad that i want the old directer over this new one

MarkovChain

01-17-2013, 08:49 AM

Proof that the dev team has no clue. The only thing /DRK will do is actually buff a mythic dragoon because they lack so much attack, and only for 3/5 minutes guys ! At the end of the day it's gimped SJ, and it would have also been so for one hander because delay caps at 80% anyway. No wait, you are better off WAR or MNK as always haha.

Due to this, please let the dev team know that what that do doesn't make sense. The only thing that is potentially making DRK overpowered is the relatively low HP loss per second during souleater, so if you want a nerf touch it ; but right now it's about 120 HP loss per second, no group can seriously afford it, so it's not that much threatening. I myself have done various maths and prior to souleater being accounted for, DRK does about the same damage as a relic MNK or an empy WAR.

Cyprias

01-17-2013, 08:51 AM

Drac

01-17-2013, 08:52 AM

This is in regards to the pace of battle we see in Most new content. As we have seen Battles become more fast pased and in quick succession, This leave little time to recover MP. I would propose that a reduction in MP Cost in addition to the changes proposed would help to balance Mages to the pace of battle.

ManaKing

01-17-2013, 08:54 AM

Lastly, we understand that some of you wish to be able to increase the number of merit weapon skills that can be fully upgraded, but this is something that we discussed previously (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=333736&viewfull=1#post333736). Instead of making it so you can get everything, we're thinking about making it so there will be benefits without having to max out a category, which will open up the choices a bit more.

Yeah well what if you are maxing out Requescat to compensate for how bad RDM is?

You really could stop pissing people off by giving us another 5 points so we could at least be 4/14 instead of 3/14. I'm sorry you don't understand your fan base and how people actually play this game. No one is going to choose to be voluntarily inferior to other people. That's how you get excluded.

You want people to actually play your game and attract new players? Well you're doing it wrong, because you aren't giving us incentives. We don't say nice things about FFXI because you won't just give us what we want sometimes when the reason you won't give it to us is nothing better than you don't feel like it. A little more wiggle room is the sort of policies that make people happy. The only thing that keeps your customers coming back is nostalgia after FFXIV failed it's first release.

You want us to get more people for you so you can make better profits? Make us happy.

Zhronne

01-17-2013, 08:59 AM

Instead of making it so you can get everything
One thing is "getting everything"
One thing is "getting 1-2 more".

Why does it have to be black or white? Why can't you find a better compromise that allows us to get one or two additional MAXED weapon skills? I don't want to have a WS that is not maxed, I'll never, ever, ever feel "good" if I know the WS I got is missing something, be this something 90% or 1%, I'll just never be satisfied by such a solution.

You said it yourself in the discussion you linked. Allow me to quote:

As a part of the character growth system, we will be increasing merit caps and adding new categories in the future. However, we will not be removing the cap entirely.
See? INCREASING merit caps.
That's fine! Increase it! Give us 5 or 10 more points into the category, I'll be happy enough even with just 5 more (another maxed WS), I swear.
The fact that you are doing the change to the attribute % per merit level doesn't mean you can't ALSO give us 5 more points for the category. Give us both and we'll all be happy, I'm sure no living player will complain, and nobody will be able to cap everything.

See? Everybody is happy that way, it's so simple, why can't you just go that way? ("you" as in "Square Enix", I'm not pointing my finger at you specifically Oki, of course)

Carth

01-17-2013, 09:01 AM

Currently, the development team plans to have the proposed Last Resort haste benefit only apply to two-handed weapons. The reason being is there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.
Not wanting to mince words, this is a very, very dumb idea. It was stated that 1-handers need a leg up to compete with 2-handers yet the dev team decides to give more options to 2-handers. It boggles my mind how they've come to this conclusion.

The reason behind this is even worse, however. Yes, we have Enhance DW options, but 1-handed users are unable to compete 2-handers anyway, mainly due to less damage-based abilities. /DRK would've at least made this an option to explore, but now 1-handers don't even get the chance to experiment.

MarkovChain

01-17-2013, 09:04 AM

If you want to buff one hander there is only one choice : buffing /NIN or /WAR somehow. I'd personally go with increasing the benefit of STR on the weapon which will act as a DMG boost. Might also consider a JA that buffs STR/DEX/AGI that can be up 100%.

Karbuncle

01-17-2013, 09:35 AM

I don't much like the idea of what they're proposing for Merit Weaponskills, If only because they already nerf-Balanced a few of them to be "As powerful" As level 60 weaponskills when you cap them with merits (5/5).

If we're going down this path, unnerf Ruinator and Realmrazer, so that even at 1 merit with this new proposed update, they'd be worth using.

As of right now, Having 1 merit would be like having 3 in the old system... Which, They all still really sucked at 3/5 merits. 5/5 Is still going to be the only means of making them useful. Even 4/5 is going to leave you wanting. Square really doesn't seem to understand no one enjoys knowing they're gimping themselves in the name of diversity.

I just don't see very many (good) players going down the "1/5" or "3/5" Path with this new proposed adjustment... 5/5 Will still be the only level in which any of them are good since, again, you guys decided to balance most of them around their level 60 counterparts.

Yinnyth

01-17-2013, 10:09 AM

If you want to buff one hander there is only one choice : buffing /NIN or /WAR somehow.

There are more, better-thought-out options than merely buffing the SJs most frequently used by 1-handers. How about instead of that, they do the same thing they did when they gave sam hasso and seigan; turning a stupid SJ into one of the most commonly used SJs.

Unless of course I misinterpret everyone's feelings about the issue of SJs and we all enjoy the lack of diversity and adaptability.

Rorrick

01-17-2013, 03:02 PM

Categorically hand-to-hand weapons fall under the single-handed weapon classification; however, the stats for hand-to-hand weapons are quite different from that of swords, which are literally held in just one hand, and they will not be treated the same. We will be separating hand-to-hand weapons from this balance adjustment and making changes that fit more in line with the weapon.

Can we get some information about what adjustments are planned for hand-to-hand? You're right in that hand-to-hand is unique among weapon types. It has the disadvantages of both categories; the long delay of two-handed weapons with comparatively low base damage, and the accuracy and attack penalties than one-handers suffer. MNK and PUP are also unable to make use of the Sub slot.

Could we get some elaboration on this, please?

Babekeke

01-17-2013, 04:09 PM

They might as well have put this thread in the DRG forums, as DRG is the only job that is ever likely to use DRK as a SJ.

WAR/SAM, SAM/WAR are always better options, as both get attack speed boost and att boosts.

DRK itself already has both att and att speed boosts, so it can sub either WAR or SAM for similar efficiency.

DRG however, loses att speed boost from hasso by subbing war, and att boost from berserk, by subbing sam.

DRG/DRK will therefore offer 3/5 mins of both att speed and att boost, while most importantly, offering a multi-purpose wyvern, which can be invaluable in some circumstances.

MarkovChain

01-17-2013, 07:22 PM

There are more, better-thought-out options than merely buffing the SJs most frequently used by 1-handers. How about instead of that, they do the same thing they did when they gave sam hasso and seigan; turning a stupid SJ into one of the most commonly used SJs.

Unless of course I misinterpret everyone's feelings about the issue of SJs and we all enjoy the lack of diversity and adaptability.

If they buff /WAR or /NIN significantly it will be the same as hasso. The main difference here, IMO, is that prior to hasso 2H-DD could not cap haste, while 1Handed DD can with (2march+haste), and fairly easily too. After thinking about it buffing /war will buff WAR so maybe it's a bad idea. So I think they need to buff /nin instead. That's if they want to buff a subjob. Innin and yonnin are already in place so I think it's time to make them SJ-able with more DD-potential.

If you analyze what makes 1 handed DD generally worse than other option, you'll see that it's

* accuracy (minor because SE fails to release decent content that needs acc).
( attack is not an issue because THF & NIN can sub war like everyone else.)
* Base DMG is weak and split into both hands.
* THF weaponskills are gimp.

Since one handed style is more focused on melee DoT, I suggested to buff melee to turn them into MNKs. Increasing the base DMG on weapon could be hard so intead I suggested to look at modifiers like fSTR, critical damage/rate etc.

Nebo

01-17-2013, 07:29 PM

Currently, the development team plans to have the proposed Last Resort haste benefit only apply to two-handed weapons. The reason being is there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.

If it weren't for the fact that "currently" one handed weapons are vastly inferior to two handed weapons in ever possible way, I might see the point of this logic.

As a One handed weapon user, you either have dual wield/martial arts natively and can sub WAR, or you are just completely not in the universe of a relevant contribution to melee damage.

One handed weapon users could just some DD sub job versatility other than "sub WAR or you really suck."

And as others have said..Reevaluate the STR/DEX functions for one handers AND raise the Atack Cap.

If you don't raise the Attack Cap, it doesn't matter...one handed weapon users will never be competetive.

MarkovChain

01-17-2013, 08:36 PM

Changing the attack cap won't do anything because you are unlikely to reach it in 99% of the thing you do in the game. It's not the reason 2handers beat thf and nin anyway.

Zhronne

01-17-2013, 08:59 PM

It's unrealistical to expect all jobs to perform exactely the same and swap to a game design approach of "bring the player, not the job", similar to what they did in WoW.
Or rather, you can achieve such a goal, but it requires huge changes within the game mechanics, and it's something that comes at a big cost (homogeneization).

As much as we all would love our favourite job to get a spot in every single game event, it's unrealistical to expect this and make so FFXI remains what FFXI has been so far.
In most other MMOs you level a single class per character. In these games, as a game designer, you can't really afford a class to be useless in the majority of end-game events, because every character can only have one class.
In FFXI there is a different design, and people who demand playing a single job are just playing the wrong game.
It could have been partially right many years ago when levelling a job and gearing it up to a minimum level of decency required months, but now you can do it very fast, so people have no excuse to have at least 2 jobs, and this is the minimum requirement that FFXI game designers should keep in mind, consider that all the players have at least 2 jobs. If one of your jobs is not useful for event X and Z, then maybe there are good chances it will be useful for event Y. If you want to do X and Z just level one of the many jobs that are more useful in those events.
I'm not saying this is an excuse for them to keep things as they are -it's pretty clear that SOMETHING has to be done for 1handers- I'm only saying that we can't expect all jobs to perform the same into every event, it's just unrealistical and as I mentioned at the beginning, it's something that comes at a big cost (homogeneization).

What they need to do imho is to make what currently is sometimes a huge difference into something smaller, at least for some jobs, and they can easily do that with some tweaks here and there (no, I don't think buffing /NIN or /WAR is the right solution, they need to do something on the main job).
But they should work more into giving each job more specific utilities, so that if you're in charge of being the Event Leader of your group, sometimes you may decide it's worth to replace your missing Reso DRK with another 1h job not just for the DPS (which will be lower) but for the utility/bonus it brings for all the group.

Imho this is the direction they should aim to, otherwise game would just become a bunch of homogeneized and boring jobs where everybody does exactely the same altough in different ways.

saevel

01-17-2013, 09:40 PM

Currently, the development team plans to have the proposed Last Resort haste benefit only apply to two-handed weapons. The reason being is there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.

This is very very dumb. LR giving a 15% haste effect to 1H would actually be useful as they don't get any form of JA haste (except DNC which gets 10% the same as every /SAM).

Crimson_Slasher

01-17-2013, 10:20 PM

I support the motion of having the cap for merit ws increased to 20/25(4/5 weaponskills) or for the less endgame, more casual players, do both, make the weaponskills start at 65% potency so the players who are less worried about going to the endgame events and want their toys to atleast work, even if not the best, can do so, then can merit/demerit more toward their tastes.

I know as a player whom has leveled samurai recently, but cant bare to part with the 3 weaponskills i chose, it leaves me in a position of needing to make a masamune(Or atleast a WOE version...) just to not feel completely inadequate. This isnt to say that players have insanely high standards, but i find myself having trouble hitting anything reasonable with only gekko/rana/etc at my disposal currently. Havent tried to use a pentathrust option either and cant get stardiver currently again due to selected ws, but with drakesbane i feel i can perform adequately on drg so i am left turning to the other jobs i feel are in dire need of these merit ws, and my desires to keep the 3 i love currently.

So again, 20/25 points or bust, being told to sacrafice 5% of 3 weaponskills to get 1 at 10% reduced potency is a grand loss of 25% potency globally for that player. So please reconsider that aspect. I dont think a hair over 1/3rd the options availible is a bad thing.

Zhronne

01-17-2013, 10:31 PM

This isnt to say that players have insanely high standards
Bull's eye.
Developers, and maybe players too, need to understand that you can't allow "specialization" the same way for every single field where it's possible to specialize. You need different approaches for different kinds of specialization.

One thing is putting a limit in the amount of attributes, HP, MP, melee skill and magic skill you can merit. They offer a clear edge to the job that can get advantage from them, but they do not make or break a job.
The same can partially be said about group1 and group2 merits. They are specific PER JOB, so they do not make or break a single job.

The same cannot be said for weapon skills. Some of those WS are a HUGE difference, the difference between making a job useful or useless.
You cannot put limits (a cap) in a category that creates such extreme consequences. Or at least if you want to put limits, then you need to offer a higher roof, or cap.

The idea of starting at 65% is a compromise (a bad one, imho) but it is not a solution to this issue.
Do not underestimate this important factor please.
Having or not having a certain merit WS is not the same as having or not having 16 skill in a certain weapon or any of the other specialization options that the game currently offers to the players.

xbobx

01-17-2013, 11:10 PM

Something the developers need to realize.

The game is on its last legs. You don't keep it going but sticking to old ideals. Especially with a new expansion coming out.

You talk about changes all the time taking too long, or being too complex and not having the manpower. You admit to pulling most of the resources to the expansion. But here is the problem. People pay a monthly fee for access and content. The cost has not changed but the content is about 1/10 of what it use to be. Now all that funding has been pushed to the expansion where you in turn have the nerve to charge 29.99 for an expansion on a 10 year old mmo that most likely, going by history, will be only 20% done.

So do you think by doing this, and by constantly restricting people in how they play the game and only go by your vision (which needs glasses by the way) that this is the best way to retain your customer base? And do you think this is the best way to transition people to FF14?

Square has been making poor decisions as a company for a long time and has been funded by re-releasing ports of old games form their glory days. So how about you guys prove that you have what it takes and actually start listening to the fan base and not pretend you are with all the smoke and mirrors. Maybe then and only then will people actually have faith in giving FF14(the biggest fail in MMO history) a second chance. Because as it stands now, I can't see FF14 being anything but a guaranteed colossal failure due to SE's continued arrogance and inability to properly communicate with their customers.

Kari

01-17-2013, 11:42 PM

Instead of making it so you can get everything, we're thinking about making it so there will be benefits without having to max out a category, which will open up the choices a bit more.

This is impossible.
I don't think the devs know what kind of playerbase they have.

If you don't have 5/5 of a meritted WS, you're going to do less damage than someone who does have it 5/5. You can make 1/5 "useful" or "good" all you want, but it's still a strong limitation.

You've given us 20 [22 soon] jobs, and are telling us now to pick 3 that we want a merit WS for. If the merit WS is useful at all, then it means I'm going to want it 5/5, because 1/5 is gimping myself. The difference could be 1% mod per merit and it'd still be an issue.

Every other part of the merit system can pretty much be dealt with. You can play a mage with full HP/STR/DEX merits, or a DD with full MP/MND/INT merits, and still be relatively similar. However the difference between someone with 1/5 Resolution and 5/5 Resolution? 1/5 is going to lose out a lot on equal footing.

shyryu

01-17-2013, 11:50 PM

nice work but .... adjusting RDM WHEN ?
i want play my RDM thank you SE !

xbobx

01-18-2013, 12:24 AM

This is impossible.
I don't think the devs know what kind of playerbase they have.

If you don't have 5/5 of a meritted WS, you're going to do less damage than someone who does have it 5/5. You can make 1/5 "useful" or "good" all you want, but it's still a strong limitation.

You've given us 20 [22 soon] jobs, and are telling us now to pick 3 that we want a merit WS for. If the merit WS is useful at all, then it means I'm going to want it 5/5, because 1/5 is gimping myself. The difference could be 1% mod per merit and it'd still be an issue.

Every other part of the merit system can pretty much be dealt with. You can play a mage with full HP/STR/DEX merits, or a DD with full MP/MND/INT merits, and still be relatively similar. However the difference between someone with 1/5 Resolution and 5/5 Resolution? 1/5 is going to lose out a lot on equal footing.

keep in mind some jobs, like ranger would actually need you to cap two weaponskills just for the one job.

Demon6324236

01-18-2013, 01:15 AM

WAR(if using Bravura) needs 2, RDM needs 2 if you use both Dagger and Sword, DRK needs 2 if you use both GS and Scythe, RNG needs 2 for both types of ranged attacks, so at least 4 jobs which to play at its best you need 2 WSs merited.

Fredjan

01-18-2013, 01:40 AM

Last Resort:
The entire discussion in its entirety is reminding me why people call this game Samurai Fantasy XI, especially if one has a Kogarasumaru, one of the best weapons in the game. That's a SAM buff, other jobs won't gain as much by subbing DRK. WARs should remain /SAM, DRGs might gain the option, but there will be people that will prefer either /SAM or /WAR for their own reasons. /DRK is an attempt at a mix of both subs, while losing any defense capability (/SAM), STP/Meditate/Sekkanoki (again, /SAM) and the DA trait / Berserk/Aggressor (/WAR). Seems underwhelming to me outside of SAM since you can already have a fulltime Haste buff (Hasso) on top of it.

Merit weaponskills:
While it is a nice idea to make lower #s of merits into weaponskills more appealing (as is, it's beyond the meaning of pointless), we as a playerbase have issues settling for anything less than 5/5 in a weaponskill, especially if it's a very powerful one. We aren't asking to "have everything", we are asking for a merit cap increase, such as 15 to 17~20. Gives us room to try more weaponskills if we want without weakening weaponskills we are profound enough in (ie: Resolution, Stardiver, Shoha, Last Stand, etc., etc.; the thought of weakening any of those is something most players do NOT want to do). The current system is too restricting, and increasing the effectiveness of earlier merits won't change this, and as the poster above me said, some jobs need more than 1 merited weaponskill. Most DRKs won't have Entropy unless they're scythe R/M/(or E) owners, but every single DRK in existence will have Resolution merited if they want to even be taken seriously.
I sum it up with "This is why we can't have nice things."

Insaniac

01-18-2013, 07:24 AM

I am starting to think they intentionally leave pertinent information out of dev posts so they can crush dreams the next day.

Camate

01-19-2013, 09:24 AM

Happy Friday everyone!

I have a couple of follow-ups in regards to the various topics discussed in this thread.

Before reading, please note that the below is based on discussions amongst the team as well as information that we confirmed with the lead directly. This information is not finalized.

As this is not a post directly from the developers themselves, there is a possibility that there is information here that is incorrect due to the fact this text has not been checked by them after it was written, meaning edits or additional supplementation may be made after the fact.

With that said… Here's what Matsui mentioned about defense.

Regarding Defense

This is a topic that we have received feedback on asking to increase the boons of defense. Due to the attack/defense ratio, the meaning behind adding defense past a certain value starts to become pointless, and we would like to make it have meaning.

As a merit, for example, the more you increase your defense, the lower the damage taken will be and the boons for Defender would become large.

On the other hand, while under the effects of abilities that decrease defense such as Berserk or Last Resort, the damage you take would become higher than what it is currently.

The development team is currently looking into the below adjustments for the attack/defense ratio.

Even if defense is lowered, the damage received does not increase
Currently there is a cap imposed for the attack/defense ratio.

The damage you receive from an enemy's attack will increase up to 50% of your defense; however, if it is less (than 50%) you will still receive the same damage as if you had 50%.

This is the reason why even if you reduce your defense a lot when stacking Berserk and Last Resort, you won't see a large increase in the amount of damage you take.

Idea

Increase the cap value for the numbers calculated from the attack/defense ratio.
Damage received while defense is low will be larger.

Even if defense is increased, the damage received is not reduced
This is mainly for higher level enemies where the level difference correction is imposed.

Every level a value is added per level to the value that is calculated from the attack/defense ratio, and defense is lowered and then taken into account.

Idea

The monsters created after Seekers of Adoulin will be created without the imposing of a level difference correction, and when higher level monsters are created, modification will be placed on attack, defense, and stats.

Remove level difference correction
By removing the level difference correction, it will be possible to reduce the amount of damage taken by increasing your defense.

Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently.

Regarding Content

To start off, we are looking into adjustments for new Nyzul, Legion, Odin's Chamber II, Voidwatch (up to Provenance Watcher), Salvage, and in the event there is further necessity, new Salvage as well.

Below is what we are looking into for adjustments.

New Nyzul

Adjustments to the warp range of floors

Legion

Adjustments to monster levels
Adjustments to attack power and defense

Odin's Chamber II

Adjustments to monster levels

Voidwatch

Expand the usage range of the void clusters to Provenance (Provenance Watcher)

Salvage

Re-examine the drop rate of level 35 equipment
Make a change so that monsters other than the NMs that spawn from ramparts in Bhaflau Remnants drop the same equipment

Walk of Echoes

Adjustments to monster levels
Remove EX status from each type of coin
Add sacks that contain multiple Devious Die and Liminal Residue

Past this, we will continue to make adjustments as necessary, and we will be making it so strategy and play style variations can be developed instead of having to win with a huge amount of fire power in a short amount of time.

Below are some changes to the adjustment plans:

New Nyzul
Since the purpose of using Embrava was to increase the pace of defeating all enemies, instead of adjusting the floor warp range, we will be re-examining changes to monster strength.

Adjustments to defense
Currently looking into making adjustments so that attacks that focus on enemies' weakness are even more deadly.
Adjustments to the enemy's level per floor (*values are being adjusted)

Floors 01-20: Lowered by 10 levels
Floors 21-40: Lowered by 7 levels
Floors 41-60: Lowered by 4 levels
Floors 61-80: Lowered by 2 levels
Floors 81-100: No change

Legion

Adjustments to HP/attack/defense
As mentioned above, we are looking into removing the level difference correction.
Due to the fact that removing the level difference correction and lowering the level of monsters at the same time would cause the monsters to become too weak, we are thinking about making adjustments to attack and defense, as well as HP.

Odin's Chamber II

Adjustments to HP/attack/defense
Similar to Legion, due to the fact that removing the level difference correction and lowering the level of monsters at the same time would cause the monsters to become too weak, we are thinking about making adjustments to attack and defense, as well as HP.

Also, the development team is aware of everyone’s concerns that monster’s special attacks are a bit on the fierce side.

They are currently discussing making it similar to new Limbus, Odin’s Chamber II, and Meeble Burrows where you can formulate a strategy to evade special attacks, and also with the defense adjustments it will be possible to withstand an enemy’s attack more than now as their attack power is reduced. The goal is to change the conditions where you need to defeat a monster right away because even a single regular hit from them deals too much damage.

Next, on to dark knight…

There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:

To make job adjustments by comparing aspects collectively to close the gap between dark knight
To not make adjustments by comparing only fire-power to leave dark knight behind

As mentioned previously, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio, a greater emphasis will be placed on defense. In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change. With that said, based on these changes to the attack/defense ratio we will be fleshing out specifics for what kind of adjustments are necessary for other jobs and let you know once we have some information.

Finally, elemental magic.

When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs.

Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users.

Also, we do not have any plans to reduce the casting time or recast time any further than what was listed due to the fact that the average damage will increase and it will also be possible to deal good damage with tier II and III spells.

We are also planning to make adjustments to “-ga” and “-ja” type spells following these guidelines as well. Similarly, we are planning to make adjustments to ancient magic, slightly deviating from these guidelines.

Alhanelem

01-19-2013, 09:41 AM

New Nyzul
Since the purpose of using Embrava was to increase the pace of defeating all enemies, instead of adjusting the floor warp range, we will be re-examining changes to monster strength.

Adjustments to defense
Currently looking into making adjustments so that attacks that focus on enemies' weakness are even more deadly.
Adjustments to the enemy's level per floor (*values are being adjusted)

Floors 01-20: Lowered by 10 levels
Floors 21-40: Lowered by 7 levels
Floors 41-60: Lowered by 4 levels
Floors 61-80: Lowered by 2 levels
Floors 81-100: No change

I could be wrong here, but isn't the real thing that slows people down in nyzul the lamp floors? This doesn't really change the biggest roadblocks in the event (assuming I"m not wrong, which I could be- I don't claim to have spent much time in nyzul)

Infidi

01-19-2013, 09:51 AM

Wonder if it would be possible to remove lamp floors from Neo Nyzule altogether? :D

Fermion

01-19-2013, 09:59 AM

Finally, elemental magic.

When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs.

Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users.

Also, we do not have any plans to reduce the casting time or recast time any further than what was listed due to the fact that the average damage will increase and it will also be possible to deal good damage with tier II and III spells.

We are also planning to make adjustments to “-ga” and “-ja” type spells following these guidelines as well. Similarly, we are planning to make adjustments to ancient magic, slightly deviating from these guidelines.

Will the helix spells receive adjustments to their damage formulas and casting/recast times? With the planned Elemental Magic changes, I can't see how helix spells would be allowed to lag so far behind...unless they plan on surprising us with helix II's ;).

Either way, the helix line should be carefully looked at. This is SCH's defining set of elemental spells. I'd hate to see them rendered virtually useless by developer over-sites. Please fix Modus Veritas as well.

saevel

01-19-2013, 10:58 AM

If they make defense more important while also lowering the monsters damage output, then that could go a long way to balancing the current play style.

bigdave

01-19-2013, 11:14 AM

man they cant even bother to fix the biggest spell for black wizard so it worth casting solo

Xilk

01-19-2013, 11:34 AM

Even if defense is increased, the damage received is not reduced
This is mainly for higher level enemies where the level difference correction is imposed.

Every level a value is added per level to the value that is calculated from the attack/defense ratio, and defense is lowered and then taken into account.

Idea

The monsters created after Seekers of Adoulin will be created without the imposing of a level difference correction, and when higher level monsters are created, modification will be placed on attack, defense, and stats.

Remove level difference correction
By removing the level difference correction, it will be possible to reduce the amount of damage taken by increasing your defense.

[/list]

Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently.

This sounds like it effect beastmaster pets as well, making them more effective vs higher level targets than they currently are, and a bit less effective vs lower level targets than they currently are. is this correct?

Demon6324236

01-19-2013, 11:41 AM

List of adjustments.I am happy to see these things, yet I am also sad there is still no word on anything Voidwatch related. Is there any chance at getting some more info about changes to Voidwatch and its reward distribution rate?

Protey

01-19-2013, 01:30 PM

Camate wrote:

"As mentioned previously, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio, a greater emphasis will be placed on defense. In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now"

What about counterstance? does the Dev team expect MNKs not to use this most important of JAs anymore?

Carth

01-19-2013, 02:01 PM

Remove level difference correction
By removing the level difference correction, it will be possible to reduce the amount of damage taken by increasing your defense.
Screw everything else in that post. This would change the game entirely.

MarkovChain

01-19-2013, 03:24 PM

Rorrick

01-19-2013, 03:25 PM

Could we get a follow-up on adjustments to Hand-to-hand?

Helel

01-19-2013, 03:25 PM

Screw everything else in that post. This would change the game entirely.

That's the point...? Removing level correction will help one-handed DDs out quite a bit. You should at least explain yourself next time, rather than just being scared by change.

Carth

01-19-2013, 03:47 PM

That's the point...? Removing level correction will help one-handed DDs out quite a bit. You should at least explain yourself next time, rather than just being scared by change.

I'm... not? I'm actually extremely excited for this change.

Edit: Let me lay out just how huge of a change removing LCF and changing atk/def caps would be.

-DEF/VIT may actually become a useful stat.
-Berserk, Last Resort, Counterstance, and other abilities that lower DEF become (extremely) more dangerous to use.
-BLU's Cocoon becomes useful, and may possibly become overpowered.
-The difference between 1-handed users and 2-handed users in terms of damage becomes less noticeable.

Grouped together, this would be a big step in lessening the dominance of the optimal Zerg strategy. If they revise the Enmity system correctly, this would make PLD useful, and even further, make Turtle PLD an optional build instead of a laughable mess. Enfeebles such as ATK down and Bio would have far more potency for bloodtanking, and DD jobs would have to be more mindful with their defenses (bringing -PDT gear set). All in all, this can be a very positive and exciting change.

Or we can all just go /NIN and blink tank, but hey, at least it's progress.

Yinnyth

01-19-2013, 04:07 PM

I could be wrong here, but isn't the real thing that slows people down in nyzul the lamp floors? This doesn't really change the biggest roadblocks in the event (assuming I"m not wrong, which I could be- I don't claim to have spent much time in nyzul)

Lamps are certainly the biggest roadblock. Any other floor which requires you to cover any significant amount of distance in order to clear it will also slow a group down. Killspeed is not so much the problem as finding and completing your objective.

I believe they're not trying to address what causes the biggest slowdowns, however. This sounds more like them trying to make up for the fact that embrava will no longer be on everyone in the group for the entire run. Embrava did far more than simply increase our killspeed through the run though. It's also what kept the DDs alive as they scattered about, picking off or ignoring the weaker enemies along the way. It was also very useful because of how mobile it kept the group.

I, for one, am glad that I've already finished with my nyzul gear.

Demon6324236

01-19-2013, 04:39 PM

Embrava did far more than simply increase our killspeed through the run though. It's also what kept the DDs alive as they scattered about, picking off or ignoring the weaker enemies along the way. It was also very useful because of how mobile it kept the group.In all honesty post nerf NNI will require 4 well geared DDs with PDT sets. Support will be 1 SCH/RDM for Phalanx, Regen, and Boss Zerg Embrava/Buffs/Cures, and 1 BRD with good duration gear and -cast time gear to keep up Marches full time and cast as fast as possible. Those 2 things together basically cover everything that Embrava does right now except for the Regain, and the Regen is weaker as well as the Haste. The Phalanx makes up for the Regen when paired with PDT as it can reduce damage to near 0, and the Regain missing is acceptable, it lowers TP gain a lot but overall kill speed will be good still so long as the Marches are not down for to long during battle I think.

AndytheRaven

01-19-2013, 04:40 PM

Counterstance is not being used since blood tanking is the norm (cure V, VI spam yo).

also from wiki:
While this ability is active, the user's defense rating is calculated only using the character's VIT and any bonuses from Minne. Defense bonuses and penalties from any other source (Armor, Job Traits, Protect) will be ignored (however, "Defense down" effects from enemies will still apply).

so wont really effect them, i would think anyways. But then that brings up will monk be able to fulltime counterstance and they take less damage due to it avoiding the same def/atk ratio?

Motenten

01-19-2013, 05:23 PM

also from wiki:
While this ability is active, the user's defense rating is calculated only using the character's VIT and any bonuses from Minne. Defense bonuses and penalties from any other source (Armor, Job Traits, Protect) will be ignored (however, "Defense down" effects from enemies will still apply).

so wont really effect them, i would think anyways. But then that brings up will monk be able to fulltime counterstance and they take less damage due to it avoiding the same def/atk ratio?

Counterstance is a 5 minute duration with 5 minute recast, so yes you can fulltime it, unless it gets dispelled.

Things that affect defense by a percentage, such as Berserk and Defender, also apply. But of course +25% defense when you're starting from 50 is pretty meaningless.

It currently works well enough since, compared to Berserked defense, you're only increasing damage taken by maybe 50% (except vs ranged attacks, where it can easily double damage taken), but only taking half as many hits, so it ends up a net positive. With the increase in the Ratio caps, it's liable to double damage taken (similar to ranged attacks) while reducing the number of hits by the same amount, putting you at a net deficit on damage taken for only a small gain in extra damage done.

From their comments, it looks like they're raising the Ratio cap to ~3.5 (enough to 'almost double' the damage a Berserked character might take; 3.5 would be a 75% increase), but removing the level correction (a mob 10 levels above the character would get an extra +0.5, putting them at 2.5 total; 20 levels above would be +1.0, putting them at 3.0; that increase would be going away), meaning a net increase in damage of perhaps 20% to 40%.

Those changes would move Counterstance from being a decent reduction in total damage (in exchange for somewhat greater risk of being one-shot) to being a minor reduction, or even a wash, with a much greater risk level. Given that all these impacts hit at about the point of defense when you have Berserk up, to balance things out on Counterstance you'd have to almost get rid of the defense penalty altogether, and I don't see that as a likely option. It also doesn't 'feel' right. They might have to add some degree of a phalanx- or PDT-like effect in order for it to still be useful for its intended function.

Zirael

01-19-2013, 05:49 PM

Yinnyth

01-19-2013, 06:07 PM

As it stands, all enemies have minimum 20% accuracy against players

I might be a little out of date on this, but I was under the impression that the minimum and maximum success rate for almost every check in the game is 5% and 95%, respectively. This most likely being inspired by Dungeons and Dragons' D20 behavior where rolling a 1 is considered a critical failure where even the world's most skilled warrior trips, drops his blade, and falls with his exposed neck squarely on the pointiest part.

I personally agree with many of the points you raise, however. I also hope they examine the other methods used for tanking, and reconsider the failure/success rate cap.

Zirael

01-19-2013, 06:50 PM

I might be a little out of date on this, but I was under the impression that the minimum and maximum success rate for almost every check in the game is 5% and 95%, respectively. This most likely being inspired by Dungeons and Dragons' D20 behavior where rolling a 1 is considered a critical failure where even the world's most skilled warrior trips, drops his blade, and falls with his exposed neck squarely on the pointiest part.

I personally agree with many of the points you raise, however. I also hope they examine the other methods used for tanking, and reconsider the failure/success rate cap.
Or I might have out of date information on 20% enemy accuracy as well. Haven't checked it recently really, it's just something I've had memorised from somewhere.

Edit: Found it.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hit_Rate

Your Hit Rate cannot drop below 20% nor can it be raised beyond 95%, so adjusting accuracy above or below these limits will not have an effect on your Hit Rate. These limits also apply to a monster's accuracy as well.

Metaking

01-19-2013, 09:04 PM

Regarding enemy's attack/defence adjustments, you are saying that enemies will be able to do more damage to players after you remove 50% Defence floor cap, but to compensate, players will take less damage if they focus on raising their defence. This works out great for Paladin and will make it more risky to use Berserk or Last Resort, but... do you realise Paladin is not the only way to tank things? Some job classes rely on evading attacks (Thief, Dancer, Puppetmaster), shadow images (Ninja) or Phalanx/Utsusemi/PDT (Red Mage) to take less damage. It looks to me like ATK/DEF changes will cause those tanking classes to take more damage after removing 50% DEF cap, since they were designed to mitigate damage in a different way than rising DEF, and can wear light or cloth armor only.

As it stands, all enemies have minimum 20% accuracy against players, regardless of level difference, and enemies Tough+ (especially bosses) reach capped accuracy very fast regardless of players using Evasion+ equipment, Corsair Rolls and Bard Songs. Also, as a Thief, I wouldn't even dream of evading any TP move in Legion or Neo Einherjar at all. What is the reason for all those Evasion Bonus job traits I have, again?

If now I take 1000 damage from Enraged Hydra's Serpentine Tail/Trembling, how much damage will I take after the ATK/DEF change? Also, good luck keeping your shadows up against something like cloned Arch Dynamis Lord's 2-3x Dynamis Implosion/Tera Slash or Borulus Rex's (AoE TP moves, AoE magic fast cast).

What about backline jobs? White Mages, Scholars, Bards, Summonners etc don't usually sub Warrior for Defender and usually have something like 200-300 Defence in Refresh gear. Or even PDT gear. What will happen when they get hit by enemy due to AoE (Yagrush/Auspice WHM meeling in the front lines; a BRD, SMN or SCH whilst applying AoE buff), reaching hate cap (SCH or RDM Cure4 spam), hate reset or tank dying?

I would like enemy accuracy, cap of PDT equipment, cap of Phalanx, defence rating of light/cloth armor revised.
Change to AoE damage on anyone but primary target (players and pets) doing much less damage is overdue.
Reducing AoE range on things like Tera Slash, Fulmination or Meteor is even more overdue.

your selling rdm short it can blood tank with blu sub for def(coccon) they also have protect, not to mention dux gives great def and pdt at the same time. Now for nin dnc pup and thf i think level ratio effects your evasion parrying and guard rates seance a low evasion check on an even means like 80% hit rate but only like 70% on a vt, I am just assuming the revers is also true, and the monster is flat caping you down, tho past a vague mention on ffxiclopedia( http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Accuracy ) i cant find any solid testing also after pro 5 most melee should have about 500 def which a monster would need what 1.7kish attack to ratio cap on if there raising it to 3.5 like motenten said

no on your mention of ADL this could actually make him more servivable being hit 4 times for 400 dmg or being hit 4 times for 133 dmg is a big difference, hell get the sch to trow on some phalanx and it gets better

on to the mages, most mages generally still cast protect on themselves and should be around 400 def, and tho there are some, not to many monsters have 1.4k attack to hit that scary 3.5 ratio

MarkovChain

01-19-2013, 09:06 PM

This change will probably make attack the only relevant stat on tp and ws gear. It will also change every optimized set, and even in setup were you are highly buffed, more attack will bring you something. So it's possible like attack will be more valuable than stuff such as double/triple/quadruple attack or haste or accuracy. It's especially important if you consider your WS gear. Basically, don't bother focusing on a stat that is not 100% MOD. It will also be interesting to check how they change critical hits. If it follows the current trend, crit will very likely be much less interesting than attack and relics will likely become top weapons again and empy will fall behind.

Also . booooooooooooooost macro.

Fermion

01-19-2013, 11:21 PM

on to the mages, most mages generally still cast protect on themselves and should be around 400 def, and tho there are some, not to many monsters have 1.4k attack to hit that scary 3.5 ratio

When I go SCH, I have more def. than that. For pretty much anything I do on SCH, I'm eating def. food, since there are pretty much no other options for mages, might as well raise my def. a little right? After this change, mages will be (relatively) even more durable, unless they introduce good food for mages, then I'd have to make a decision based on the event.

All in all, I think this has the potential to shake things up a little. Hopefully the game will change from a full throttle drag strip, to more of a Formula one course.

Carth

01-19-2013, 11:40 PM

Elexia

01-20-2013, 01:34 AM

Please fix Modus Veritas as well.

Don't exploit things with it next time and SE won't curb stomp it rather than actually look at it for adjustments. :)

It'd be interesting to see how removng the level correction affects everything, though it's still not as bad as how it was in XIV.

Fermion

01-20-2013, 01:55 AM

Don't exploit things with it next time and SE won't curb stomp it rather than actually look at it for adjustments. :)

First off, I never exploited it, I don't know why you're assuming to know me (or maybe your sentence structure is just so bad, I'm misunderstanding you).

Secondly, they don't seem to have the foresight or innovation to properly implement abilities and changes, so I'm just asking for it to not be completely useless as it is at the moment, because they probably have no idea.

There are so many other easy ways the Modus Veritas exploit could've been handled, I'm literally amazed at the lack of imagination shown by the developers. As it currently is, it could be totally removed from the game, and it'd probably take the average SCH a couple weeks to even realize it's gone. That's how worthless it is now.

MarkovChain

01-20-2013, 02:02 AM

From their comments, it looks like they're raising the Ratio cap to ~3.5 (enough to 'almost double' the damage a Berserked character might take; 3.5 would be a 75% increase),
If mob A has a ratio of 2 (currently), with berserk up it will have r/0.75 ratio which they claim will do double damage so that's 4 => r=0.75*4=3.

So I think they will cap ratio at 3.0 instead. If they consider that you take double damage with both LR + Bezerk then it's 2.4. Also meanwhile at capped pdif a crit is worth ~+33% damage instead of ~50% currently. If this is correct,

* currently at capped pdif : with 20% base crit rate, +1% crit rate is the same as increasing your attack by 0.45%.
* after, at capped pdif : with 20% base crit rate, +1% crit rate will be the same as increasing your attack by 0.31%.

With a mob of 500 defense, you currently cap ratio at 1000. Thererefore currently 4.5 att= 1% critrate, though you are often capped in zergs. Next 3 attack=1% crit and you will rarely and probably never be capped. For instance if you have a gear that has 4% crit rate, you only need 12 attack to beat it and it will always be effective.

Demon6324236

01-20-2013, 02:37 AM

First off, I never exploited it, I don't know why you're assuming to know me (or maybe your sentence structure is just so bad, I'm misunderstanding you).

Secondly, they don't seem to have the foresight or innovation to properly implement abilities and changes, so I'm just asking for it to not be completely useless as it is at the moment, because they probably have no idea.

There are so many other easy ways the Modus Veritas exploit could've been handled, I'm literally amazed at the lack of imagination shown by the developers. As it currently is, it could be totally removed from the game, and it'd probably take the average SCH a couple weeks to even realize it's gone. That's how worthless it is now.I doubt the comment was directed specifically at you, but more at SCH in general. While I agree with you the way they handled it was stupid Its wrong to think that they didn't nerf it with good reason, a 1 damage Helix could do 262,144 damage if you had an Alliance of SCHs, thats starting at 1 damage, if you started at say, 50, you would hit well over 10 Million damage with an Alliance of SCHs. That would literally kill anything in the game even today, with a single spell in less than 10 seconds.

Had SCHs in general not abused that power, it would have never been broken down to its current level of uselessness. SE's way to nerf it was likely done in a panicking nature due to realizing how easily it could be exploited, and thus changed its accuracy to its current worthless level. The real problem is that SE never went back to it, they fixed the exploit of it but broke the ability itself at the same time, and then never looked back on how to properly fix it in a way which it could not be abused. SE often seems to do this, they make content or changes, and never look back on it, so if its broken then it stays broken and if its not then awesome, we can praise them for getting something right on the first try.

ManaKing

01-20-2013, 02:45 AM

Also, the development team is aware of everyone’s concerns that monster’s special attacks are a bit on the fierce side.

They are currently discussing making it similar to new Limbus, Odin’s Chamber II, and Meeble Burrows where you can formulate a strategy to evade special attacks, and also with the defense adjustments it will be possible to withstand an enemy’s attack more than now as their attack power is reduced. The goal is to change the conditions where you need to defeat a monster right away because even a single regular hit from them deals too much damage.

Thank you. Your game would become significantly more fun by doing this.

Next, on to dark knight…

There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:

To make job adjustments by comparing aspects collectively to close the gap between dark knight
To not make adjustments by comparing only fire-power to leave dark knight behind

Will Quietus become a real WS? Is defense mitigation going to be something DDs actually want in WSs finally?

Entropy would be significantly more attractive if you would give DRKs some magic adjustments. Dark versions of Holy and Holy II have been asked for probably 100s of times at this point. Making Absorb spells not decay so fast would also be appreciated.

Finally, elemental magic.

When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs.

Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users.

rdm?.....RDM? RDM~~~!!!!!

But seriously, we'd love to be of service. Adjust our Enspells to debuff magical defense and evasion in a useful and qualitatively significant way. Give us a reason to be.

Chocobits

01-20-2013, 03:18 AM

Didn't see it mentioned, but with the change in attack/def, wouldn't Conqueror become the strongest weapon in the game?

Byrth

01-20-2013, 03:45 AM

MarkovChain

01-20-2013, 03:50 AM

The fact that mythic rely too much on building 300% somewhere makes them gimp weapons. The better weapons will be those of the jobs that don't suck and whose weaponskill damage is not entirely relying on critrate. Relic monk and shijin spiral (plus boost will be quite overpowered), DRK and ragnarok+resolution, sam and shoha. Ascetic's furry has a 100% att boost too so maybe with glanzfaust it starts to be decent.

MarkovChain

01-20-2013, 03:52 AM

No. All of the changes they're describing are Monster -> Player. They've given no indication that they're touching Player -> Monster level correction at all.

Even if they had, DRK/WAR still has more attack than a Conqueror WAR.

They did indirectly say that they would touch player vs monster

Legion

Adjustments to HP/attack/defense
As mentioned above, we are looking into removing the level difference correction.
Due to the fact that removing the level difference correction and lowering the level of monsters at the same time would cause the monsters to become too weak, we are thinking about making adjustments to attack and defense, as well as HP.

If "too weak" refers to "they can't damage me", why mention their HP ?

Helel

01-20-2013, 08:41 AM

They said they were considering adjusting monster's defense due to removing level correction (see idea #1 that mentions SoA). That's clearly player -> monster.

Yinnyth

01-20-2013, 09:15 AM

No. All of the changes they're describing are Monster -> Player. They've given no indication that they're touching Player -> Monster level correction at all.
It sounds to me like they're making it so both the level correction removal and the defense changes will work both ways based on the last line of the quote below:

•Even if defense is increased, the damage received is not reduced
This is mainly for higher level enemies where the level difference correction is imposed.

Every level a value is added per level to the value that is calculated from the attack/defense ratio, and defense is lowered and then taken into account.

Idea
1.The monsters created after Seekers of Adoulin will be created without the imposing of a level difference correction, and when higher level monsters are created, modification will be placed on attack, defense, and stats.

2.Remove level difference correction
By removing the level difference correction, it will be possible to reduce the amount of damage taken by increasing your defense.

Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently.

But it doesn't come right out and say it.

Motenten

01-20-2013, 09:57 AM

Next, on to dark knight…

...

In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change.

Actually, re-reading this, there's possibly another explanation.

It started off with:

The damage you receive from an enemy's attack will increase up to 50% of your defense; however, if it is less (than 50%) you will still receive the same damage as if you had 50%.

That means the baseline is the player's defense at 50% of the mob's attack. For example, Ig-Alima at 1059 attack and a player with 530 defense, the mob is at capped Ratio against the player. It doesn't matter if you add Berserk, Last Resort, etc, to that, you'll still take the same damage.

Now, take a drk using Berserk+Last Resort (ie: "pay no attention to your defense"). That's +25% and +15% attack, and a commensurate -25% and -15% defense. So defense is down a total of -40%.

Starting from 530 defense, it's now 318 defense. New ratio for the mob is 1059/318 = 3.33, or 67% more damage than before. Bit of a stretch to call it 'almost twice', but the wording makes sense if you looked at it where your defense dropped by almost half, so then the mob Ratio would almost double.

That means they aren't saying the Ratio cap is ~3.33 or 3.5 or whatever, but that the defense that previously meant nothing (from 530 down to 318) now fully matters. In other words, they're not actually asserting any Ratio cap at all (other than at least 3.33). The cap could be 4.0, or, for all we know, could be completely unbounded.

If that is indeed the case, the risk from using Counterstance would be almost completely untenable. Every mob attack would be like current ranged attacks, which are mostly a death sentence for a counterstanced mnk.

So Camate: Please provide clarification. Is there an intended upper bound on the attack/defense ratio? And, regardless, how do they plan on addressing Counterstance with these changes?

Byrth

01-20-2013, 11:11 AM

They aren't asserting there will be a future Ratio cap, I agree, but they've pretty much explicitly told us that there is currently a 2.0 Ratio cap for monsters, yeah? As a side note, some testing indicates that this ratio cap is separate from the level correction Ratio boost.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=262&mid=1298635397162868956&h=50&p=7#343

Also, I think SE-vision could see "decreasing the damage done by monsters (reducing level correction)" = "making them easier"

The truth is that such a change will have a pretty minor effect on current strategies (apart from the potential inclusion of Tarutarus) because you still need to stun the TP moves so that the status effects don't get off.

Raksha

01-20-2013, 11:33 AM

I doubt the comment was directed specifically at you, but more at SCH in general. While I agree with you the way they handled it was stupid Its wrong to think that they didn't nerf it with good reason, a 1 damage Helix could do 262,144 damage if you had an Alliance of SCHs, thats starting at 1 damage, if you started at say, 50, you would hit well over 10 Million damage with an Alliance of SCHs. That would literally kill anything in the game even today, with a single spell in less than 10 seconds.

Had SCHs in general not abused that power, it would have never been broken down to its current level of uselessness. SE's way to nerf it was likely done in a panicking nature due to realizing how easily it could be exploited, and thus changed its accuracy to its current worthless level. The real problem is that SE never went back to it, they fixed the exploit of it but broke the ability itself at the same time, and then never looked back on how to properly fix it in a way which it could not be abused. SE often seems to do this, they make content or changes, and never look back on it, so if its broken then it stays broken and if its not then awesome, we can praise them for getting something right on the first try.

2 points:

1) The only thing anyone ever actually killed with this method was a yovra. No one ever actually killed AV with it.
2) iirc you could only reliably get ~5 SCHs to stick MV, and that was with bots.

Not saying MV shouldnt have been fixed, just saying that it shouldn't have been made useless.

Tennotsukai

01-20-2013, 12:14 PM

This is all really great news to read on, but I am wondering about DRK. Wasn't there supposed to be an update on DRKs absorb spells? What about working on DRKs survivability more than just their attack? Perhaps more absorb spells/dread spikes?

Demon6324236

01-20-2013, 12:22 PM

2 points:

1) The only thing anyone ever actually killed with this method was a yovra. No one ever actually killed AV with it.
2) iirc you could only reliably get ~5 SCHs to stick MV, and that was with bots.

Not saying MV shouldnt have been fixed, just saying that it shouldn't have been made useless.I could have sworn I have seen a vid of people using Modus to kill over 50% of a Hydra before, however I could be mistaken I suppose. Also in either case I know no one got to kill AV or anything with it, however it was the fact that SE nerfed it before people could that was my point, they likely rushed to patch it because they noticed what they had done, they were just to absent minded about it to ever come back to it to really fix it. They did what they had to so it would not be overpowered, but they never actually balanced it, simply destroyed it and left it to waste away.

Trumpy

01-20-2013, 02:06 PM

I see this Quote:

"Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently."

means they are changing player > monster. why mention weapons with a modifier of 1.0? I took this as part of them trying to make 1 handers closer to their 2 hander brothers even if just a little bit.

MarkovChain

01-20-2013, 06:35 PM

Yeah clearly imply player vs monster too. Anyway be prepared for a big revolution if this happens. I can understand now how they consider this will affect darkknight without nerfing their damage now. All DDs will be doing much more damage, but berserk users, and especially DRKs, will basically be sheets of paper defensive wise. I doubt anyone is going to let their DDs take 900 dmg per hit, especially as DRK seing as the job is pretty much based on killing yourself to do damage. This can be fixed by using perfect defense though, but it's becoming very situational. So overall the advantage the use of /war is probably going to be very limited, so we might indeed go back to /nin. Remember that when we still were 75 only idiots were subbing war wether it was merits or endgame. This was due to WHM curing being quite limited, hp being lower, and -25% def being already problematic. Even colibris had a move that could put a monk into orange without even using CC. Now with berserk and the ratio change using berserk is likely going to be impossible even on decent challenge mobs.

We might go back to seigan / ninja sub in endgame unless you can afford PD (I doubt you can do anything else on ADL for instance) but even for stuff like meeble, neo salvage, neo nyzul, /nin or at least seigan.

In this sense it lowers the difference between THF-NIN // WAR-DRK-SAM // MNK, it doesn't nerf the max damage of 2handed DD though it makes it very unlikely (eg : riding hasso / berserk on war = suicide). Since MNKs and THF-NIN don't rely on hasso, they can still sub nin for a minor loss to attack (basically losing 10% DA only) and a giant gain in defense, while WARs are losing roughly 25% attack.

It's going to be interesting at least.

Metaking

01-20-2013, 09:13 PM

scaevola

01-21-2013, 12:54 AM

Byrth

01-21-2013, 03:38 AM

Basically, Dancer will be the best job in the game!

You speak as if this isn't already the case.

Yinnyth

01-21-2013, 10:05 AM

welp harden shell even tho only 3 mins/10mins(diffusion timer) might give the heavys some breathing room for zerk (having a blu using demoralizing roar might finally be worth it), also this change could make adl more manageable depending on how high is actual attack is, i mean bio3 attack down pro5 and maybe get a brd with emp harp throw out hastex2 attack and a def song im sure the dds will be fine.

ADL will probably still be hard due to how gimmicky he is. I'm pretty sure he loses every debuff you put on him every time he splits. His AoEs are also devastating in ways other than the pure damage they deal. Knockback + grav, silence/para + bind, conal death, 30 seconds of terror, etc. Straight-up tanking for ADL (not zerging) will probably still be crazy tough after the changes unless they adjust his abilities.

Miloki

01-21-2013, 11:41 AM

Happy Friday everyone!

Next, on to dark knight…

There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:

To make job adjustments by comparing aspects collectively to close the gap between dark knight
To not make adjustments by comparing only fire-power to leave dark knight behind

As mentioned previously, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio, a greater emphasis will be placed on defense. In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change. With that said, based on these changes to the attack/defense ratio we will be fleshing out specifics for what kind of adjustments are necessary for other jobs and let you know once we have some information.

I would just like to point a few things out about Dark Knight before someone with a nerfbat goes all...batty.

DRKs are one of the LOL jobs of yesteryear, and reducing anything we currently enjoy will be seen as a slap in the face to people who struggled making their DRK competitive back in pre-Aht Urgan to pre-Abyssea days. We stuck with the job, the devs should as well.

Our Scythe WS pretty much suck. Is is too much to ask for a 2 or 5 hit WS that can crit (!), str mod and maybe even an additional effect worth a crap (ie: not silence).

Availability of decent GS. There aren't alot. The AH-able Great Swords were meh at 95 cap...kinda lawl now. Magian Trials gives a few good options, the rest are drops in the above-mentioned content that I don't much partake in because I would rather not spend my limited playtime in randomland.

DRK MP still isn't very useful. Many of our spells don't work on anything EP and above, or they just plain aren't worth the time to cast. We hit hard with our weapon normally, casting a spell slows that down, and therefore must have some use. I still think DRK should be able to induce plague effect on enemies.

Job Abilities. We need one that increases damage above lvl 30. Pretty sure DRKs are the only DD that doesn't get a damage job ability post level 30. I have higher level JA's that increase dmg FROM MY SUB than I do natively. It doesn't need to be epic, just something simple. We don't need haste, accuracy or attack. Store TP could be good. I would like a 5 or 10 min cooldown 90 sec duration of 10% DA. I don't think its gamebreaking, but it is a JA we can use without risk of dying because of it. By the way...

Enmity...A PLD can't seem to hold hate sometimes, but I sure can. How about a JA that causes plague and reduces enmity? Call it Weapon Bash II. Kind of a two-birds one JA idea, much like some of DRGs higher lvl jumps that do weird things. Plague and -50 cumulative enmity or something.

Resolution. If its such a problem, then take away a hit I guess...or reduce the fTP a touch. Don't make us go back to spinning slash please...I mean really, Great Swords were our second fiddle for years and years and years...and don't change this without addressing some of the above please.

Just my thoughts...

Umisame

01-21-2013, 01:54 PM

Zeroe

01-21-2013, 04:57 PM

New Nyzul
Since the purpose of using Embrava was to increase the pace of defeating all enemies, instead of adjusting the floor warp range, we will be re-examining changes to monster strength.
Adjustments to defense
Currently looking into making adjustments so that attacks that focus on enemies' weakness are even more deadly.
Adjustments to the enemy's level per floor (*values are being adjusted)
Floors 01-20: Lowered by 10 levels
Floors 21-40: Lowered by 7 levels
Floors 41-60: Lowered by 4 levels
Floors 61-80: Lowered by 2 levels
Floors 81-100: No change

Where is issues lie is all about random floor jumps and Lamp Rooms. The mobs aren't really the issue. The fact one order lamp floor with kill your run is absurd. It leaves it completely to chance. Luck reliant endgame is not fun, nor does it show skill of the party. Want people to enjoy this event? Then REMOVE lamp floors, or at least take out the order lamp rooms.

Mirage

01-21-2013, 10:03 PM

Yeah I think it would be better to keep the enemy levels the same, but make lamp floors faster to solve (or non-existent).

Zhronne

01-21-2013, 11:21 PM

Or make so the range of jumps goes from a minimum of 3 to a maximum of 15!

Tetsujin

01-21-2013, 11:24 PM

I'd like to add to the list of people interested in SCH's significance in these elemental magic updates.

Will Helices be allowed a shorter cast/recast time? Can't complain about the MP cost but any adjustment to the casting time would make magic bursting / Immanence chaining a bit more exciting... and fix modus? pretty please?

Fynlar

01-21-2013, 11:55 PM

Regarding Modus Veritas:

There's one simple thing they could have done to prevent it from being abused for AV kills and whatnot while still keeping it as a usable ability for the lone SCH, and that was simply to not make it stackable by multiple SCHs. Surely that kind of thing can't be that hard to program? I still don't know why they didn't just do that when people started complaining about Modus being a commonly-failed Voidwatch proc.

There was no need to ever give it accuracy checks, or to give mobs Modus resistance.

shyryu

01-22-2013, 12:47 AM

Vous comté rendre le jeux facile jusqu’à quel point ?

Mirage

01-22-2013, 12:58 AM

Totally, shyryu.

Annalise

01-22-2013, 08:39 AM

SpankWustler

01-22-2013, 10:32 AM

What about summoners?
Are we going to continue with 45 seconds cap for Blood Pacts?
We still use level 70 BP to do dmg, are we going to get new BP rages?
Magic will be changed, is this going to affect avatars too?

Depending on how wide-spread the level correction changes are, and how level correction applies to pets, just that change could have a noticeable impact on the physical damage from all pet jobs. While pets might end up less able to tear weak monsters to pieces, there's an equal chance they'll perform better against stronger stuffs.

Somebody who knows more than I do about that should probably use this opportunity to make me look dumb. It would be informative.

Of course, since a lot of what Summoner does is magical or unique to the job or support-oriented or just plain weird, whatever happens to level correction would probably affect Summoner least out of all pet jobs.

Metaking

01-22-2013, 04:37 PM

odd thought, but are they going to change what rngs flashy shot does?

Xilk

01-23-2013, 12:07 AM

Depending on how wide-spread the level correction changes are, and how level correction applies to pets, just that change could have a noticeable impact on the physical damage from all pet jobs. While pets might end up less able to tear weak monsters to pieces, there's an equal chance they'll perform better against stronger stuffs.

Somebody who knows more than I do about that should probably use this opportunity to make me look dumb. It would be informative.

Of course, since a lot of what Summoner does is magical or unique to the job or support-oriented or just plain weird, whatever happens to level correction would probably affect Summoner least out of all pet jobs.

You are quite accurate. Currently, the attack/defense ratio caps at 2.0 just as SE revealed in this post. However, players only discovered this a few weeks ago, as the level correction causes the pdif term for pets to go as high as 4.0 (before randomizer). This does appear to be at a rate of 0.05/level.

BST pet mechanics are the same as mob mechanics. This is exactly why pets do more damage to lower level mobs than players can. Similar to how 2 handed jobs have a higher ratio cap than 1 handed players do, pets have a much higher ratio cap than any players due to this level correction. Conversely, that level correction hurts pet damage when fighting mobs of higher level. The contrast is huge. This is why pet jobs have been so gimp vs high level nm's and why they became so OP when the level cap was raised. This is why BST can solo vrtra and tiamat and so many hnm so easily from the level 75 cap. This is why a level 70 blm can nuke a player and still do 800+ damage, but the same nuke to a level 99 pet does maybe 150 damage. This is why a pet barely does double digit damage vs an nm which is 10+ levels above it.

Removing the level correction will affect BST pets more than others by far, because pet dd is all melee. If they are going to adjust mob att/def values w/ this change, are the going to adjust BST pet att/def values also?

Alerith

01-23-2013, 02:20 AM

No mention of needed PLD adjustments.

This whole announcement is exceedingly disappointing.

Carth

01-23-2013, 03:08 AM

The Level Correction and Atk/Defense ratio changes, should they go through, would be a big step in making PLD and other tanks more viable for endgame.

I would like to see their ideas for Enmity changes, however.

MarkovChain

01-23-2013, 03:53 AM

I mathed a bit the effect of the change to ratio of the DPS of various DDs. Assuming the new pdif cap is 3.0 and 4.0 for crit I get the following DPS against decent challenge mobs under high buffs ( 2x marches, 2xminuets, enfire, haste, boost dex, berserk / hasso when relevant )

previously it looked like (increase in dps in % listed)

As you see the change will act as a nerf on PUP and DRG (since they never hit attack cap) so I'm not sure it's the good thing to do. Basically it will buff those jobs or weapons that already go often at the ratio cap right now, while not touching others, but at the cost of dying to berserk.

Raksha

01-23-2013, 06:32 AM

I could have sworn I have seen a vid of people using Modus to kill over 50% of a Hydra before, however I could be mistaken I suppose. Also in either case I know no one got to kill AV or anything with it, however it was the fact that SE nerfed it before people could that was my point, they likely rushed to patch it because they noticed what they had done, they were just to absent minded about it to ever come back to it to really fix it. They did what they had to so it would not be overpowered, but they never actually balanced it, simply destroyed it and left it to waste away.

There was a video, but they never actually killed the hydra/cerb/whatever with it. It was done as a proof of concept/practice run.

Demon6324236

01-23-2013, 07:06 AM

That exact concept is what got it so heavily nerfed, as I said, SE just never went back to balance it, just like how they do many things in this game, once its nerfed its gone with no hopes of returning to an acceptable use. Thankfully I think for the most part they did ok with Embrava, though I still do not like exactly how they did it, but its at least acceptable by compare. Embrava is another subject entirely, but I use it as an example just because its another of SCH's nerfs, just Embrava I feel was handled a bit better, even if they did wait a very, very, long time to do it. In the end however, that long wait may be why it is turning out to go as well as it is, rather than ending up as a total flop like Modus did.

MarkovChain

01-24-2013, 04:12 AM

Pop corn incoming for MNK & PUP, a google translate of the JP posts shows an increase from 2 to 2.25 for ratio cap. While the effect is limited for pup since their attack is still fairly low, it is a giant boost too mnk as they are more likely to reach it. Anyway a very well geared pup with KKK is probably getting a substancial boost too. Also keep in mind that MNK has the possibility to use boost on WS, for ~20% boost to attack, while right now you are advised for not using it since the time lost is usually not worth the effort, but this could change. The draw back is, of course, berserk is going to kill you but at least boost doesn't ... Math incoming.

MarkovChain

01-24-2013, 04:41 AM

Ok here we go. The state of DDs right now (recall for post 233)

Now with the increase of 1H ratio, without boost on the MNKs :

5% to 7% increase to MNKs (remember the targets are ~even match)

Balance™

Note that the abvove comparison are done with only dia2 / minuets / food as attack buff, which put the mnk nearly at cap but not at cap, as the ratio varies between 2.15 and 2.25 depending on impetus.

Camate

01-24-2013, 04:58 AM

Greetings!

Since there has been a lot of feedback and questions regarding level correction, I’d like to take this opportunity to add a bit to what we mentioned last week about how we are looking into eliminating level correction.

This level correction is what we will be using to make it so that when you increase your defense the damage you take will be reduced. In other words, the level correction will be focused on the monsters' attack power. Since we will not be making any changes to the level correction in regards to monster defense, damage towards higher level enemies will not see an increase from the level correction adjustments. Completely getting rid of level correction would make it easy at low levels to defeat monsters that have a difference of 20 levels or more.

With that said, from your character's perspective, these changes will only really be applicable to higher level monsters, and easy prey monsters or other lower level monsters will not become weaker. However, depending on the attack/defense ratio there may be variations.

We also understand that the current attack/defense ratio cap for single-handed and two-handed weapons is 2 and 2.25 respectively, and an idea was raised to set them both to 2.25. We will need to examine whether this value is good enough or if we need to make further changes in advance before we proceed with this adjustment.

Now to answer some questions…

With these adjustments could you also make adjustments to weapon skills that have “defense ignored varies with TP”?

Currently we do not have any plans to make adjustments to these kinds of weapon skills.

Am I going to die right away when I use Counterstance now?

We understand the concerns associated with this and there is a possibility that we will be making separate adjustments to Counterstance.

As a final note, we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to weapons that deal non-elemental damage; however, we do realize that they are extremely strong. Though this is speaking more about the future, since we will be introducing items that have a higher damage value, we expect that these weapons will not be something that are used full-time, and the situations for use will become limited.

In regards to the way we create monsters, we will still be adding features to them like you can see currently, where some monsters will be weak against piercing, while others weak against blunt damage or physical damage in general. However, instead of making it so you can only do damage via a certain method of attacking, we feel it would be better to create them so certain attack methods yield even more damage. To get a better idea of what we are talking about, Qutrub are a perfect example.

Also, the possibility that we add more weapons that deal non-elemental damage is extremely low.

Now then, just to wrap stuff up, below is a TL;DR version of the basic plan for these adjustments. Please keep in mind that none of this is finalized.

Attack/defense ratio adjustment plan

Increase the cap value for the numbers calculated from the attack/defense ratio.
Make adjustments so that when a player’s defense is low, damage taken will increase.
Increase the cap of the attack/defense ratio for single-handed weapons.
Look into increasing this to 2.25, the same attack/defense ratio of two-handed weapons.

Level correction adjustment plan

Level correction for monsters’ attack power
Make adjustments so when a player’s defense is high, damage taken will be reduced.
Make adjustments to monsters’ strength via parameters
Monsters created after Seekers of Adoulin will be made at a level where there is no level correction, and when higher level monsters are created modification will be placed on attack, defense, and stats.

Motenten

01-24-2013, 05:14 AM

We also understand that the current attack/defense ratio cap for single-handed and two-handed weapons is 2 and 2.5 respectively, and an idea was raised to set them both to 2.25.

I don't see anywhere in the JP posts where they state that the two-handed weapon ratio cap is 2.5. I only see where they are raising one-handed weapons from 2.0 to 2.25, the same as two-handed weapons. As far as player testing has indicated, two-handed weapons indeed have a 2.25 ratio cap. Can you please clarify?

Increase the cap of the attack/defense ratio for single-handed weapons.
Look into increasing this to 2.25, the same attack/defense ratio of two-handed weapons.

And then later in your post you say the same thing. Probably an error in the first statement?

Camate

01-24-2013, 05:27 AM

I don't see anywhere in the JP posts where they state that the two-handed weapon ratio cap is 2.5. I only see where they are raising one-handed weapons from 2.0 to 2.25, the same as two-handed weapons. As far as player testing has indicated, two-handed weapons indeed have a 2.25 ratio cap. Can you please clarify?

And then later in your post you say the same thing. Probably an error in the first statement?

Hi Motenten!

Thanks for pointing that out. It was a typo. :( I missed a "2". The original post has been corrected. Sorry about that!

Alhanelem

01-24-2013, 05:30 AM

Currently we do not have any plans to make adjustments to these kinds of weapon skills. Well make some plans, because every single one of these WS are terrible and you don't notice the impact of more TP much at all (it may as well just be "damage varies with TP" anyway)

ManaKing

01-24-2013, 05:57 AM

Quietus and CT should really by worked so that their damage and defense ignored varied with TP. Giving people a reason to build 300% TP for something other than an AM should be something that is appealing to at least some WSs.

We don't have a good idea what these corrections are going to do for these WSs and it would go a long way to be more direct about answering these questions, since these are WSs that people would like to be able to use that are associated with significantly more time invested than normal WSs.

Helel

01-24-2013, 05:59 AM

Good stuff. Any plans to increase bonuses from STR/DEX for one-handed weapons (attack/accuracy respectively)?

In other news, RNG recycle adjustment please.

Rorrick

01-24-2013, 06:12 AM

Riggs

01-24-2013, 06:16 AM

i don't really understand what your saying about defence but it sounds like your going to make it so we all take more damage which seems unfair to those of us who play evasion jobs, when we take a hit are we gonna start taking massive damage?

HimuraKenshyn

01-24-2013, 06:34 AM

So will the attack ratio adjustment include Hand-to-hand as well? Given the previous response about Hand-to-hand being a single-handed weapon type, but not really, it's really hard to tell if this means all one-handed weapon types, or all of them barring Hand-to-hand (which would be super lame). It's all very ambiguous.

Could we get some information on what all this information means to Hand-to-hand users?

From another post:

What's going to happen with hand-to-hand weapons?
Categorically hand-to-hand weapons fall under the single-handed weapon classification; however, the stats for hand-to-hand weapons are quite different from that of swords, which are literally held in just one hand, and they will not be treated the same. We will be separating hand-to-hand weapons from this balance adjustment and making changes that fit more in line with the weapon.

Byrth

01-24-2013, 06:37 AM

Two questions:
1) Will there also be changes to the STR:Atk and DEX:Acc Ratio?
The increase in Ratio is good, but it occurs to me that short of getting 4 Minuets, a perfect Chaos Roll with a DRK in the party, subbing WAR, and using Berserk - many 1H jobs will not be capping Ratio against high level enemies anyway. The extra 30 or so base attack from bumping this up to 4 STR:3 Attack could make a difference.

2) Will the changes to level correction and attack/damage done also affect pets (Wyverns, Automatons, Avatars, and BST pets)?
Currently Pets are thought to use the same damage equations as monsters. They are useful in some events (like Dynamis) particularly because of the massive ratio boost that they get from attacking monsters that are a lower level than themselves. Implementing these changes to pets would dramatically affect BST pet damage in Dynamis.

Other than that, thanks! I like the Ratio cap boost a lot.

Prothscar

01-24-2013, 06:50 AM

We will need to examine whether this value is good enough or if we need to make further changes in advance before we proceed with this adjustment.

Is this implying that they're going to consider adding more to 1hs to increase power further, or limit the increase to 2.25 ratio cap by adding penalties to 1h weapons?

I'd also put forth the following ideas for the Dev Team to go along with the blanket buffing of 1h weapons:

Blue Mage - Blue Magic Attack will require some revisions if you're going to be increasing the Defense of monsters to compensate for the level correction changes. In fact, we need them now too! My proposed solutions are as follows:

A) Allow blue magic attack to gain more from STR and skill, say double or +50% of what we get out of them now. Just add a *2 or a *1.5 to the end of the blue magic attack function (Blue Magic Skill + 8 + STR/2)*2

B) Allow a portion of the main handed weapon's attack to contribute to blue magic attack as well, say 25~33%.

One or the other would be sufficient in making blue magic usable on targets that are higher than 20 levels below the Blue Mage's level. Yeah, it's that bad. Please look into it.

Beastmaster, Summoner, Puppetmaster, and Dragoon - Pet attack is pretty abysmal, and will also require some attention. I'd propose a similar change to suggestion B for blue magic attack:

-Allow a portion of the master's attack and haste to affect their pet. Say 25~33% attack and 33~50% haste.

For instance, the master has 600 attack and 25% haste, allow the pet to benefit from 150~198 of the master's attack and 8~13% of their haste. This solution wouldn't be overpowering and would serve to make pets more useful on the battlefield as offensive tools.

Rorrick

01-24-2013, 07:54 AM

From another post:

What's going to happen with hand-to-hand weapons?
Categorically hand-to-hand weapons fall under the single-handed weapon classification; however, the stats for hand-to-hand weapons are quite different from that of swords, which are literally held in just one hand, and they will not be treated the same. We will be separating hand-to-hand weapons from this balance adjustment and making changes that fit more in line with the weapon.

I know about that, and I even mentioned it in the post you quoted. This adjustment is something that should be applied to Hand-to-hand as well, which is why I'm asking. Hand-to-hand suffers from the long delay of two-handed weapons and the attack/accuracy penalties of one-handed weapons. There's absolutely no reason this adjustment shouldn't apply to Hand-to-hand as well, but the ambiguity with regards to Hand-to-hand adjustments necessitates a more direct response.

Asymptotic

01-24-2013, 08:36 AM

Player -> Monster level correction is still an issue. You say it would affect lower levels too much, but that sounds more of an excuse to me. If it's only a problem at low levels, then why not have level correction penalties vary by level, or with combat skill?

It makes sense from a logical/lore perspective anyway that we could become more effective at eliminating a higher level opponent's advantages at higher levels, or at higher levels of combat skill.