[dev1003] Abyssea Adjustments

[Orson]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/240-dev1003-Abyssea-Adjustments


[dev1003] Abyssea Adjustments




[dev1003] Abyssea Adjustments
The upcoming version update will see the following additions made to Abyssea.


Adjustments


New ways to obtain Empyrean upgrade seals will be added.
New ways to obtain Empyrean upgrade cards will be added.






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If you wish to discuss or submit feedback on this topic, please use the [dev1003] tag.




Ok I'm hoping that this isn't the only adjustments to abyssea we'll see to alleviate overcrowding.

Obviously the problem is a lot less to do with seals and cards as it is about groups monopolizing monsters that drop Emp weapon items. Especially in an environment where you're timed. The last thing you want to be worrying about is having to fight over claims whether it be on respawning monsters or even in some cases the very ??? spawns. There's many occasion you'll end up having to sit 10-15 minutes for some group to kill their NM and you both have like 4-5 pops each. I've been at Glavoid and there's been 3 groups trying to spawn at the same time.

Would it be that hard for SE to change all NMs to trigger ??? pops and add like 5-10 copies of the NM in the zone? Sure there might be a few groups that would spawn like 5 copies at a time and kill them quickly but that would most likely be the few and far between. There's only a tiny percentage of the game population who actually enjoys the stressful and frustrating blocking that goes on in systems that encourage players to literally fight amongst each other to be able to play. I don't know anything that makes people more angry and frustrated with one another then this semi-PVP attitude. I know that SE has been trying to fix this so I think they should be aware that even on a low population server like Alexander this is already happening. I can only imagine the frustration on big servers.

[Lushipur]

i hope they implement ways to obtain empyrean weapons too.

we have plenty of stacks of kindred seal. give us bc against the abyssea mega-boss that drops the same item/seal to upgrade all kind of empyrean armor/weapon.

[Vold]

It sucks just as much for empy weapon farmers as it does for seal hunters. I understand SE doesn't want empy weapons to grow on trees. Nor do I really after the work I've put in so far to obtain mine. But all a server needs is a few hundred people making a serious effort to obtain them and well yeah. I don't feel adjusting the empy weapon game is going to suddenly motivate the masses to farm one. If you're going to farm it, you will. If you're not, you're not. We're just asking for help to accomplish the goal, instead of being turned off from finishing. Everyone who wants one bad enough will have it. What matters is how you get there. I rather look back with fond memories, instead of being filled with bitterness.

I guess what I'm saying is, if nothing else we really need all KIs to drop from chests, and maybe kindred crest NMs to drop the magian drops. That way someone can't just breeze by a trial with their LS because they were unrestricted with multiple ??? pops, but at least they spend a little less time in Abyssea which helps everyone.

[Xilk]

I think the Armor upgraded are a bigger bottleneck than Empyreans. I'll have to count empyreans to make a real comparison, but for +2's there are exactly 4 NM's for each slot. 20 NM's that pretty much everyone will be targeting for the exact same drops. bodies are different, there are actually 4x NM's for each body +2... so it adds up to... 22?
The Empyrean weapons I think have a lot more options... I'll have to check though.

[Septimus]

Honestly, I am very worried about over-crowding getting worse with the upcoming server mergers. I don't understand how increasing the volume competition is going to let me enjoy all of the content that the game has to offer.

[Starcade]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/240-dev1003-Abyssea-Adjustments


Obviously the problem is a lot less to do with seals and cards as it is about groups monopolizing monsters that drop Emp weapon items.


Remember that your presence on the game compromises the enjoyment of the game for those who wish to monopolize not only the game experience in general, but yours as well.

I had the same problem with a Heqet idiot a few weeks back, and ended up basically coming down to either having to accept terms to pay the jerk off not to cockblock us, or get thrown out of the alliance.

I got tossed.

[Orson]

I think the Armor upgraded are a bigger bottleneck than Empyreans. I'll have to count empyreans to make a real comparison, but for +2's there are exactly 4 NM's for each slot. 20 NM's that pretty much everyone will be targeting for the exact same drops. bodies are different, there are actually 4x NM's for each body +2... so it adds up to... 22?
The Empyrean weapons I think have a lot more options... I'll have to check though.


The problem is the Emp weapons though. Look at any NM that isn't associated with an Emp weapon and it's not camped at all heavily. That's because you only need to pop it at worst like 6 or 9 times to finish a piece of Emp Armor. For example say you want to kill Sobek for stone of balance which only drop off him and Cirein-Croin. Gukumatz and Heqet are both heavily camped and are 10-20 minute respawns. Both these NMs are associated with very popular Emp weapons AKA Masamune and Kannagi. If it wasn't for the Emp weapon farmers they'd be easy to get.

Now sure the easy option is to add new ways for people to get the seals or stones through other methods. The problem is really Emp weapons aren't hard to get as it stands the only thing that's really inflating the time it takes to get one is the competition against other players. Ultimately it's the blocking and competition that usually makes people upset about the game. If I'm forced to sit and watch another group play rather then being able to actually play the game with my friends that's poor design. Yes I realize that this game has been built on blocking produced by competing groups but obviously SE is trying to move away from that which they should be.

[Nidhogg]

Square mentioned in a post that they would be working a way a round the congestion against certain NMs I thought in a post on Twitter, I can only assume two things;

one) force pop NMs become a 1 minute repop much like the triple ? that we use to spawn NMs.

two) force pop NMs key items will fall from giant gold pyrex's for those who enjoy farming key items with high amber lights, over camping a NM.

the only issue with one of these is the giant gold pyrex rate on key items is so random and uncontrollable it feels, farming for key items in Tahrongi is a great display of this for Glavoid and Chloris, farming boxes takes us anywhere from 8 - 12 hours to complete 2 - 3 pop sets of Glavoid or Chloris, but almost always yields a Lacovie pop set on every one from my Linkshell.

I'm sure their is a happy median which gives you what key items you want but its hard to do testing on the right amount per zone, especially ones that have enhanced light gain because of bastion or dominion, where we cannot judge how many lights each amber kill on normal mob, ephemeral murex / amobian, new elemental type mobs, voidwalker notorious monsters, or zone HNMs.

Perhaps in future updates Square will give us a light reader NPC that we can consult to find out just how strong our lights are in the zone with messages that inform us such as;

"Your Azure lights flourish wildly, you will see greater quantities, and qualities in your adventures when engaging with the fiends of these planes" indicating that you will see Time Extentions, boxes that yield 1,250 XP 1,000 cruor and numerious temporary items, and all the benefits of having very high Azure lights.

[Fusionx]

i hope they implement ways to obtain empyrean weapons too.

Empyrean weapons aren't really all that difficult to obtain though. I doubt they would introduce easier methods to obtain them.

I'm curious to see what these new changes are and if they'll actually be viable alternatives to obtaining the upgrade items.

[Chew]

I completely agree that #1farming the pops and #2fighting groups for claims extremely sucks hard. However these weapons are suppose to be the equivelant to relic and mithic, or close to. If you compare time/people needed to complete a weapon the Empys are by far easier.

On a positive note the respawn timer for ??? is 1min~ compared to the oldschool 15minute ???. Anyone remember saturdays in Den of Rancor doing Hakutaku?

[Draylo]

Honestly when I think of doing another Empy weapon, which I plan to do Masamune soon, the only thing that makes me sigh is the all the competition. I really don't like having to compete with others for a ???....

[Orson]

This has nothing to do with the difficulty of obtaining Emps. Difficultly should never be based on how lucky someone is at not getting blocked by other players. As it stands if you play during peak hrs you will have a harder time to get a Emp. Not only that but often people that are only able to play during peak hrs are players that usually have less total time to play. An Emp trial should take the same amount of time for everyone (obviously being effected by your own aptitude, luck, and group) but other players should not be able to block you from working on it. It's this stupidity that many players have just come to except as the status quo in FFXI but people need to realize it's just bad design and pits players against each for no good reason.

[Lushipur]

Sorry i'm not english so its difficult for me to say something clearly ^^;

lets compare how is difficult to obtain h2h compared to gk or katana.
chloris is a 4 key item pop from 9 different nm to fight.
carabosse is a 2 ki from 2 nm.
briareus is a 3 ki from 3 nm.
even with gold chest chloris pop are the most difficult to obtain...cause there are too much ki in those chest.

so a new way to obtain chloris item would be really appreciated ^^

[Usukane]

Sorry i'm not english so its difficult for me to say something clearly ^^;

lets compare how is difficult to obtain h2h compared to gk or katana.
chloris is a 4 key item pop from 9 different nm to fight.
carabosse is a 2 ki from 2 nm.
briareus is a 3 ki from 3 nm.
even with gold chest chloris pop are the most difficult to obtain...cause there are too much ki in those chest.

so a new way to obtain chloris item would be really appreciated ^^

You state that you do not speak English very well, but you make a LOT of sense.


Now to address the competition among players at ??? NM Marks. Square Enix could easily implement it so that if you trade the items to the marks, then the monster would appear no matter what. Just by removing the one NM up at a time restriction. We just need to think simple. The simpler the solution, the more chance it will be integrated. =)

For example. Let's say we have four linkshells all competing at the same time for Carabosse. Presently, they would all be spamming the marks for hopes of popping their NM. Time is ticking, frustrations rise astronomically because of the time limit that is in place. However, removing this restriction, each linkshell could WORRY-FREE pop their NMs and ENJOY the game.

What do you think?

[Lushipur]

You state that you do not speak English very well, but you make a LOT of sense.


Now to address the competition among players at ??? NM Marks. Square Enix could easily implement it so that if you trade the items to the marks, then the monster would appear no matter what. Just by removing the one NM up at a time restriction. We just need to think simple. The simpler the solution, the more chance it will be integrated. =)

For example. Let's say we have four linkshells all competing at the same time for Carabosse. Presently, they would all be spamming the marks for hopes of popping their NM. Time is ticking, frustrations rise astronomically because of the time limit that is in place. However, removing this restriction, each linkshell could WORRY-FREE pop their NMs and ENJOY the game.

What do you think?

like there are multiple copies of VNM, they can easily do the same for every NM.

3-4 copies of each force-pop NM will be great.

time-pop nm can check if NM is engaged and if so, pop a new copy. if NM is yellow, wait for 5 min and then check again.

but can a zone keep 4-5 glavoid or uldhuashi up at the same time? XD

[Ezekieal]

I will be happy if they make gukumatz and heqet force pop instead of timed, as stated earlier in the thread, competing against other players for these nm spawns in an extremely frustrating process based on sheer luck rather than anything else.

Also adding thier ki's to gold chests would help in my opinion.

[Aena]

Yeh, in a run the other night, it was Empyrean item farming that held us off for over an hour with several sick linkshell members (especially the leader, who was making the pop set). Our only goal for the night was to kill Hadhayosh to finish off La Theine atma collecting, and the only thing we needed was Carabosse's key item. We had 3 JP groups cycling Carabosse pops before we could manage pop her for her key item. When we requested a turn at the start, explaining we only needed one kill, the first group agreed to let us pop... but then the other group ran in and popped her. They continued to trade off for several pops while we stood nearby trying to fiddle with the ??? when it was up. We just wanted to pop Hadhayosh once!

That, and we've hesitated on Chloris and Glavoid for our members for ages - alternative Empyrean weapon ingredient sources or NM spawning like earlier in this thread would be marvelous. :(

I won't say Amun hasn't been a problem lately, though. Heqet was pretty bad in earlier days, too.

[Xilk]

multiple possible pops for triggered NM's is actually a really good idea.
Some might abuse it still. monopolizing more than 1 at a time...and I wouldn't want to see too many wyrm in a small area...

[Karumac]

I could only see a problem with multi-popping a single NM for a mass Brewing.

[Wojo]

The main problem with +1 seal farming is that everyone wants NIN THF BLM and nobody wants SCH COR PUP DRK. We need game adjustments that make those jobs desirable again.

And yes there is major congestion with +2 seal farming. Force pop or reducing the spawn time to 1 minute would solve that.

In addition VNM T2 should be 1 min respawn, not 10 min.

If I may just throw this out, I would like to see Seals for +1 and +2 upgrades be obtainable through some OTHER item that can be bought and sold via the AH. I feel like the global economy has taken a back seat since none of the desirable gear is obtained through the AH any more.

[Daito]

There is one solution to the problem of +1 seals, and that is to allow players to trade their useless battle trophies for seals depending on the level of the trophy, similar to how its set up now for armor/weapons now, so instead of augmented items, you get to pick seals instead. I for one think that augmented armor/weapons from abyssea battle trophies are pretty worthless, and would serve a more useful purpose if we could only trade them for something more meaningful like seals or coin/card/stone/jewels for +2 items

[lllen]

There is one solution to the problem of +1 seals, and that is to allow players to trade their useless battle trophies for seals depending on the level of the trophy, similar to how its set up now for armor/weapons now, so instead of augmented items, you get to pick seals instead. I for one think that augmented armor/weapons from abyssea battle trophies are pretty worthless, and would serve a more useful purpose if we could only trade them for something more meaningful like seals or coin/card/stone/jewels for +2 items

Now that is a good idea.........Battle trophies are really worthless, even though the blm hat is the greatest looking hat, to bad it wasn't the design for the af3.

[Kari]

I just want to say, killing the same NM for drops, 25-75 times, is not only a large annoyance, but the worst possible design -ever- for obtaining a powerful weapon.

At least Relics/Mythics had some real thought put into the methods of obtaining.
The Magian Trial system, in general, is one of the worst game mechanics I've ever had to deal with.
Good idea in theory, but needed a lot more work to be enjoyable in practice.
I could rant more about this, but I think you get the point.

[Miiyo]

This is when armor first comes out. That shouldn't be a problem by now. I guess if your server is extremely populated this could happen. It all depends on preparation i think. I'd have a main goal and a back up plan if your mob is taken. An ls group of 8 could get 3 af3+2 bodies done in 4 hours or less. I got 5 blm body gems in less than an hour from 3 mobs in two different zones with 5 people (dnc thf whm blm brd).

[Nayomi]

i really really hope they don't make Emp weapons easier to get i mean the game has already become to easy im getting bored and popping 3+ Glaviods in 1 zone would produce mass lag and even more problems if all gear becomes so easy to get whats point of the game. think back on a time were you completed or obtained a great piece of gear you would feel proud and accomplished like i worked for this. i rarely feel that anymore, emp weapons are really the only thing separating a bunch of idiots from a good Endgame/Abyssea LS if obtaining a emp weapon/+2 gear becomes to easy im just going to quiet /sigh i miss 2005 HNM fights were so much fun required strategy and group communication now its just ok trigger red!!/yellow!! mabe blue!! then kill it only real some what difficult HNMs left are Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden and even there becoming easy i really hope SE doesn't make a nightmare come true

[Deathbeckons]

i personally agree that id much rather be able to look back on working for an empyrean weapon with fond memories rather than bitterness. obtaining the last 20 lanterns for my masamune was torturously stressful to the point where i was becoming extremely hostile to some of my closest friends. id say thats pretty bad design.

s-e seems to want to foster community, but more and more this is closing off groups from everyone else. i, personally, am loathe to add any more people to a farming group then necessary. given the time, effort, and outright obnoxiousness of some nms (grauberg hydra, pixies, etc im looking at you) any extra time added to what is already necessary is a strain. groups farming various bosses will, for the most part that ive seen, not allow someone they dont know in just for title. many groups have outright ignored me when asking.

but i digress, back to the issue at hand. perhaps a reservation system for nms would be more appropriate? obviously the timed spawn system is leading to massive amounts of frustration due to cock-blocking. something similar to the diorama reservation system could possibly work.

[Babekeke]

Useless battle trophies. I for one think that augmented armor/weapons from abyssea battle trophies are pretty worthless

This is true IMO for all apart from the SMN/WHM body... refresh +2 & 14% cure {Can I have it?} :)

[Ezikiel]

There is one solution to the problem of +1 seals, and that is to allow players to trade their useless battle trophies for seals depending on the level of the trophy, similar to how its set up now for armor/weapons now, so instead of augmented items, you get to pick seals instead. I for one think that augmented armor/weapons from abyssea battle trophies are pretty worthless, and would serve a more useful purpose if we could only trade them for something more meaningful like seals or coin/card/stone/jewels for +2 items

Very good suggestion here. i also hope they come up with a trading system for all the worthless +1 seals you get for all the jobs u don't have i had at 1 point 19/10 BLU body seals from reapeatable quest

[Juilan]

I don't find the method of getting an empyrean weapon difficult if you can have say about 5 people in the party to farm the key items and or fight the monster. But the obnoxious part is the amount of items required. I could see no difference in challenge if they cut the required number down to 20 - 30 of the items, you're still spending hours upon hours on getting the things, doing that and making multiple pops at the same time would really make the quest feel more inviting... or rather how about killing the monster 10 to 15 times with the item equipped like the upgrade trials for the relic shield/horn or the 85 to 90 trial for the weapons themselves?

I have no issue with the idea of gathering 50 items to get to another state of the empyrean weapon, but the issue for some is having the friends that can help you get them. Most of the time recently I've been playing FFXI solo due to the hours I spend on school work and at school so there is a rough feeling that some parts of the game play are being locked out for me especially since the number of true friends that have the knowledge/play hours/skill/gear is dwindling due to school or even life.

[Dubberrucky]

hmmm maybe a good use of those worthless High Kindreds and regular kindreds would be to burning circle them and relive the bottleneck some by giving an alternative way to obtain for either the emp items or +2 items.

[chrism]

I agree with this thread, reduce the pop time of NMS in abyssea so overcrowded Abyssea areas arn't waisting time over who gets the pop first and to avoid congestion.

[DrDelicious]

hmmm maybe a good use of those worthless High Kindreds and regular kindreds would be to burning circle them and relive the bottleneck some by giving an alternative way to obtain for either the emp items or +2 items.

that would be a godsend. i know SE was planning "something" with the HKC and KCs that weve been getting, and this would be a great way to do it.

[Angelinn]

As other people have said, I'm pretty sure what this adjustment is intending to do is keep emp weapons the same, but not have people who want seals/coins/cards/etc get cockblocked by linkshells monopolizing NMs for emp items.

The bottleneck and competition for monopolizing emp item NMs (most notably sobek, gukumatz, minax bugard, and sirrush) is something SE intended - something for the more hardcore people to compete for, something that keeps the number of emps being completed down. The trouble is that for people who don't care about emp items and just want seals/coins/etc, it's near impossible to compete. I needed some +2 items from sobek for WAR and NIN, but found myself camping gukumatz against 20-30 people for near a week, since there were 1-2 emp LSs there at all times feeding their bandwagon nins, who werent even trying to proc grellow or wanting to team up.

Abyssea was meant to be lowman-friendly, and I believe SE is trying their best to get rid of those awful situations where getting what you want is more about who can claim fastest, and less about killing the actual mobs.

[Linh]

I like the social experience of an MMO, and would most definitely *not* want an "instanced" answer to alleviate competition for the same monster. I wanna be able to run by and say, "Oh hey, that's a pretty badass looking monster all those guys are fighting," then continue on my merry little way.

That being said, I don't want to have to wait my turn just to fight an NM that I need. Nor would I like to see multiple groups of people all clumped next to each other fighting multiple copies of the same "special" monster, it breaks immersion.

Just introduce different Notorious Monsters to get the same items from.

[Orson]

As other people have said, I'm pretty sure what this adjustment is intending to do is keep emp weapons the same, but not have people who want seals/coins/cards/etc get cockblocked by linkshells monopolizing NMs for emp items.

The bottleneck and competition for monopolizing emp item NMs (most notably sobek, gukumatz, minax bugard, and sirrush) is something SE intended - something for the more hardcore people to compete for, something that keeps the number of emps being completed down. The trouble is that for people who don't care about emp items and just want seals/coins/etc, it's near impossible to compete. I needed some +2 items from sobek for WAR and NIN, but found myself camping gukumatz against 20-30 people for near a week, since there were 1-2 emp LSs there at all times feeding their bandwagon nins, who werent even trying to proc grellow or wanting to team up.

Abyssea was meant to be lowman-friendly, and I believe SE is trying their best to get rid of those awful situations where getting what you want is more about who can claim fastest, and less about killing the actual mobs.

The bottleneck was never intended. From the beginning Abyssea was plugged as I quote,

In Abyssea, concerns such as the over-population of battle areas and the need for large time investments will be a thing of the past. The development team is hard at work creating a world where parties can engage in rewarding battles with powerful foes and collect prized equipment with the least of fuss. The expansive realm of Abyssea will comprise several new areas which will be introduced over the course of three add-ons. Don't try to feed people BS that SE intended monopolization of monsters for any reason. You can sit there and say that SE wanted people to finish Emp weapons in close to the time it's taking now but having to deal with other players blocking you is just frustrating.

I've already pointed this out but I will again. The currently designed system makes it take longer for casual players to finish an Emp weapon than hardcore players. During peak times there are significantly more campers and fighting over spawns. So in other words if you're a player that has a full time job or full school it's actually going to take you more total time to finish one of these than someone with no obligations. That's specifically total time, it should not take the hardcore player 60 hrs to finish one and the casual player 120 hrs.

SE has to start realizing that it's unfair to put PVP blocks into any NM system because ultimately you're just allowing the players that consume the content get it done faster (total time) than people who play casually. That is the epitome of flawed content. You want to slow down the players that consume content ridiculously fast. Casual players probably won't have all the content done by the time the next patch rolls out. Casual players are the people that will make them money and take the least resources to satisfy.

Seriously I'd really like a response from an SE dev addressing this because the link is right here: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/event/vanafes2010/

They basically promised that we wouldn't have to deal with overcrowding and at the moment I'd say they haven't done that. With the server merges on the horizon these problems are only going to get worse.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Ok I'm hoping that this isn't the only adjustments to abyssea we'll see to alleviate overcrowding. Realy? Most zones are empty on Siren.